09/05/2013 This Week


09/05/2013

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drummers' political beat. No noisy interruptions for the real Queen as

:00:17.:00:19.

she opens another Parliamentary session. But former Chancellor Nigel

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Lawson is banging the drum to get out of the EU.

:00:22.:00:32.
:00:32.:00:32.

Journalist Quentin Letts swaps his drumstick for a cricket bat. Nigel

:00:32.:00:36.

Lawson was banging his drama about Europe.

:00:36.:00:40.

Sir Alex Ferguson can expect a noisy reception for his final game at Old

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Trafford this weekend, but can our political leaders learn anything

:00:42.:00:45.

from this managerial genius? Broadcaster and Man United fanatic

:00:45.:00:52.

Eamon Holmes thinks they can. been one of our greatest leaders of

:00:52.:00:57.

all time, ruling for an amazing 26 years. I bet Fergie could teach that

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lot a thing or two. And crashing the cymbals in delight

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as three women escape from years of captivity in Cleveland, Ohio. But

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why are we so fascinated by whatever happens across the pond? American

:01:08.:01:17.

comedian Eddie Pepitone tell's us to wise up. Hey, guys, thanks for

:01:17.:01:23.

playing. We exist for your entertainment.

:01:23.:01:26.

The irony is, I love drummers and I love drumming. But please can you

:01:26.:01:36.

Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, the intriguing bruise on the

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forehead of BBC current affairs which no amount of make-up can

:01:38.:01:45.

disguise. And you join us tonight in a state of panic, still reeling from

:01:45.:01:48.

the week's political events, when an uprising in golf clubs across the

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Tory shires triggered a putsch by the United Kingdom Independence

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Party. Now an attempted Westminster Palace coup is now upon us. And

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we're already hearing reports that UKIP foot soldiers, loyal to retired

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wing-commander Nigel "mine's a pint of Spitfire, pork scratchings and a

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packet of Woodbine" Farage, are now in control of Heathrow, Gatwick,

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Heart FM, nearly every London taxi, the Dog & Duck, Babestation, and

:02:12.:02:22.
:02:22.:02:23.

most crucially, the white cliffs of Dover. A curfew has been imposed and

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the smoking ban lifted. As we speak, members of the Conservative

:02:27.:02:30.

establishment are said to be in full retreat, with Lords Lawson and

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Lamont already defecting to the insurgents, by declaring they're

:02:32.:02:34.

willing to collaborate with any regime intent on leaving the

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European Union. And if you fear for our safety, be assured, we've

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barricaded ourselves inside the This Week studio, with an enormous stack

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of empty crates of Blue Nun we've somehow managed to collect over the

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years, and are praying Michael Portillo's article in the Times

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today, admitting that nice Mr Farage was right about the EU all along,

:02:55.:03:05.
:03:05.:03:05.

has done just enough to save us from being lined up against the wall. All

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power to the Farage, we say. And to quisling Portillo. Speaking of

:03:12.:03:15.

personality cults that have got out of control, I'm joined on the sofa

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tonight by two men who tag along behind me whenever I've got anything

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important to say. Think of them as the Prince Charles and Camilla

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Parker-Bowles of late night political chat. I speak, of course,

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of #manontheleft, Alan "AJ" Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain, Michael "choo

:03:28.:03:38.
:03:38.:03:45.

choo" Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? The announcement that

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the Queen is not going to the Commonwealth heads of government

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meeting, which is a very long flight. I did not find this very

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remarkable. The remarkable thing is the fitness of the Queen and the

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Duke of Edinburgh. So why is it your moment of the week? Because I want

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to say how amazing it is that they continue in such good health and

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doing such a fine job. At the funeral of Margaret Thatcher, I was

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struck by the fact that the Duke of Edinburgh walks absolutely correct,

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not like an old man. I have seen him walking without holding on to

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anything. Although I dare say the Prince of Wales and the Duchess will

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do more things, we will be surprised that even as the Queen advances in

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age, her duty will require her to do as much as she possibly can, and I

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think it will be a surprisingly amount. I think it is remarkable she

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is not going to the Commonwealth conference, because she loves the

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Commonwealth and this is the first she will not be going to. Alan, your

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moment rest of it was when I opened the times and saw that my good

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friend here has become a fan of Nigel Farage. You could have blown

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me over with a puff of smoke. It may well be more important than Nigel

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Lawson's intervention, a much younger and more recent conservative

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figure. It will certainly give comfort to Nigel. Last week's show

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must have been enormously influential, because he appeared and

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a week later Michael is joining UKIP. We are going to come back to

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that. That is good!It is, believe Now, after years of mid-table

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mediocrity and dismal 0-0 draws we were obviously concerned when Diane

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Abbott announced her retirement from politics and left This Week to spend

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more time with her constituents, once she worked out how to get to

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her constituency. Who could possibly fill the knee-high boots of the

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Hackney left-winger? Fortunately for us, we signed up Alan, a seasoned

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pro. But with Alex Ferguson announcing his retirement this week,

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is there anything politicians can learn from the most successful

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manager in history? We turned to broadcaster and Fergie fanatic

:05:59.:06:09.
:06:09.:06:19.

Eamonn Holmes for his Take Of The Yesterday, the greatest football

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manager of all time, the man who was in charge of my team for half my

:06:23.:06:33.
:06:33.:06:36.

life, stepped down. But, on the +, I have to be thankful he was in the

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job for a mighty 26 years. He did not have to face the electorate

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every five years, but think about this, no British Prime Minister has

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managed that record, and football is probably even tougher than politics

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to survive and succeed in. So what made him such a great leader, and

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:07:06.:07:13.

what might they in their learn from you think there are big egos and

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strong characters around the Cabinet table, just look inside a Premier

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League dressing room. The genius of Sir Alex is to make everyone

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understand that glory and the riches for them flow from being part of a

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winning team, and the team must always come first. For such an

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emotional man, sentiment often did not play a part. When the results on

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the pitch start to suffer, he has always been prepared to drop someone

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to the bench, or of the team. Keeping people for sentimental

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reasons will always come back to bite you. He knew how to move with

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:08:01.:08:03.

the times. In many ways, you have to say he is pretty prehistoric. That

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he transcended different generations, embracing the modern.

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In fact, he textured me twice yesterday. Oh, that is him now. He

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was a master strategist. And he learned from his defeats, bringing

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his teams back tougher, stronger. He is fascinated by military history.

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He understands the strategy for fighting. Where Fergie is really

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wise is that he does not just give out advice. He knew how to take it,

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too. And my guess is that he was wise enough to take counsel on his

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final decision, the toughest of his career, to step away from the

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touchline of the beautiful game, without being given the red card. I

:08:58.:09:08.
:09:08.:09:08.

will take my ball and go home now. I would like to point out that that

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playing surface was not what I would be used to. I have not even

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introduced you. People might say, he could not kick the ball, and they

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would be right. That is why you did not bring it with you. Welcome.

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Surely there are no real similarities between running a

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football team in controlling a cabinet or political party.

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course there are. Michael will profess not to be a football fan,

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but he and Fergie had a lot in common. Like you, he had the odd

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problem in Europe. The analogies are there. You have been to Old

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Trafford. I sat in his chair and ran down the tunnel. They are not

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letting trains into Old Trafford, are they? There is a whole other

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story there. He comes across for many people, the public figure, as a

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bit of a dictator, a control freak. A benign dictatorship. In a

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democracy, that does not work. are right, it does not stack up.

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cannot throw a hairdryer at a Cabinet member. You cannot refuse to

:10:25.:10:31.

speak to the BBC for years. He knew his audience. In terms of the crowd

:10:31.:10:35.

at Old Trafford, it was interesting. When we were knocked out of the

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champions league a couple of months ago with a controversial decision

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where a player was sent off, Fergie got up. It was -- there was such

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euphoria and it was like a punctured balloon. Ferdie got up and he got

:10:49.:10:53.

everybody to boo the referee. He went like this, and he had that

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control. You cannot get the Prime Minister to get his cabinet and

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people to boo the Chief Justice and the Supreme Court. You are right.So

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the film was completely wrong? are right. The thing about Alex

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Ferguson was that ultimately he was the ultimate pragmatist. He knew how

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to take advice. So David Cameron has learned from him. Fergie would be a

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firebrand politician and we do not get many of those nowadays.

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thought the film was completely right. Metaphorically, by ministers

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can throw hairdryers at their Cabinet, and those who do were

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successful for a while. Margaret Thatcher had her handbag, a strategy

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that worked for 11 years. I worked closely with two Prime Minister 's.

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Margaret Thatcher frightened me and I work hard every time I turned up

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to a meeting, extremely well briefed and I was on my toes. John Major did

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not and I turned up caring less about what I did. Motivation is

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crucial. However, even Margaret Thatcher, and this is an

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extraordinary fault in prime ministers, even Margaret Thatcher,

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when appointed her ministers, never told them what she expected of them.

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There is a simple lesson. Why does a prime minister not say, I expect

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you, within the next year or two, to have delivered this and this. I am

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sure Ferdie told the players exact what was expected. -- Ferdie.

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also told them they were the best, and they responded to that. He also

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told them he wanted the best out of them and would not settle for second

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best, which are a lot of little leaders, for various reasons, do, in

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their Cabinet or their teams. want to give a balanced cabinet,

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whether different factions, genders, et cetera. I think there is an

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incredible statistic about Ferguson, which shows he knew how to

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keep an advantage. 39 years in management, 1500 games for

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Manchester United, and his teams never lost 12 to zero lead, in that

:13:05.:13:15.
:13:15.:13:17.

time. -- they never lost a two nil lead. Often in politics, succession

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is very clunky. This succession has been beautifully timed, nurtured and

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cultivated. I think the thing is that however much we, as United

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fans, are in mourning, and however Sir Alex may not have wanted to let

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go of the rains, we all realise that David Moyes is available this week,

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this month, and now is probably the time to go, however painful.

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other thing that came out of your film, and reading about it, is that

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it did not matter how big a star you were for Alex Ferguson, but the team

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was always bigger. Again, I can think of Margaret Thatcher. She got

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rid of Jeffrey Howell. She let Nigel Lawson go. Ultimately, these losses

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were fatal to her, but it took a long time. Nigel Lawson left the

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Cabinet in 1988, and she did not go for another two years. She

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absolutely took the view that the superstars had to go. The contrast

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is, Tony Blair would never let Gordon Brown go, and I think he

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would have been long as Prime Minister if he had. The more I study

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Sir Alex Ferguson, the more I think he has in common with Margaret

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Thatcher as the Conservative socialist, mainly from his point of

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view, than anyone else, because he had his favourites as well, as she

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had and he'd put his arms around them, the Cantonas, for example.

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believed in globalisation. conflict resolution, which was to

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win, win, win, beat everybody in sight. That's how he resolved

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conflict. Does the political world ever look at leadership elsewhere,

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as indeed the world's most successful football manager? If they

:15:06.:15:12.

do, they don't push it on to anyone else -- pass it on to anyone else.

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When I became an MP, there was no training, there was no direction, as

:15:16.:15:22.

Michael said, as to where you should go. I think if we are looking at

:15:22.:15:26.

that leadership, we are not passing the leadership skills on. Do you

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agree? Politics is amateurish. There is no training for it, no

:15:31.:15:37.

objectives, no targets. There's no attempt to create a team spirit. On

:15:37.:15:40.

the whole, people don't even get media training. Do you know what, my

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friend, football was like that as well. One of the great things about

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Sir Alex Ferguson is, he crossed various generations. A lot of people

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would say, he's a dinosaur, belongs to a different age. His real skill

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was to adapt to each age, build new teams, time after time. He survived

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through a huge transformation of the game and was as happy after the

:16:00.:16:03.

transformation as he had been before? Absolutely and he was a

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great believe in new technology. He's fundamentally behind this

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incredible training centre that Manchester United have at Carrington

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and all the latest medical advances, he'd bring those forward into the

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game, like Arsene Wenger would be now and the Mourinhos and all those

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would be like that now. Better than any politician, he's managed his

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stepping down? I think so.Without being thrown out, without going or

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being forced to leave, without losing? That's very difficult to do

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because obviously ego plays a part in it and, for him again, it very

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definitely is the politics of conviction. He was absolutely

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convinced always that his way was the right way and he was able to

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bring people along with him with that again a Thatcher way. Going by

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the records, his way usually was right. A big question before you go.

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I have got to get up in three hours so can you just... Which ego is more

:17:04.:17:09.

difficult to handle if you were Sir Alex Ferguson or yourself - is it

:17:09.:17:13.

Cristiano Ronaldo or Michael Portillo? Oh, Portillo.I would

:17:13.:17:20.

agree. A prima donna, yes. Totally agree, I mean, Ronaldo, pfff...

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get rid of him. This is not antiforeign... He could command a

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lot of money on the transfer market. Let's get rid of him. Babe station

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would be in for him! Six Cornflake packet tops didn't hack it. Good to

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see you. Thank you very much.It may be late here in the UK, but spare a

:17:44.:17:54.
:17:54.:17:55.

fought for the stateside viewers. Cracking open the Blue Nun. Stand up

:17:55.:17:59.

comedian Eddy Peppertone is here to explain the endless fascination with

:17:59.:18:04.

all things all American. For those who prefer something all

:18:04.:18:12.

together less fascinating, fill your boots:

:18:12.:18:16.

We like to mix things up a little here, so we thought this would be

:18:16.:18:21.

just the week to give you a cricket themed film. After all, it's not on

:18:21.:18:25.

the front-pages or the back pages, there have been no scandals, no

:18:25.:18:30.

resignations or significant losses to speak of. Imran Khan is in bed

:18:30.:18:33.

but he doesn't play cricket any more! Obviously, there was no better

:18:33.:18:39.

time to send Quentin Letts off to his spiritual home to give us his

:18:39.:18:47.

round-up of the political week. Big story of the week wasn't in

:18:47.:18:51.

politics, it was in the world of sport. Football. Something called

:18:52.:18:57.

association football. Rotten old game! Cricket, that's the one for

:18:57.:19:02.

It's the start of the cricket season and it's the start of the

:19:02.:19:12.
:19:12.:19:37.

David Cameron's been facing all sorts of tricky deliveries this

:19:37.:19:41.

week. For some reason, all the bowlers seem to have been called

:19:41.:19:51.
:19:51.:19:55.

Nigel. The PM's certainly needed a '80s test star Nigel Lawson sent out

:19:55.:19:59.

a right little fizzer. He suggested that Britain come out of the EU all

:20:00.:20:03.

together. The reason this was such a tricky

:20:03.:20:07.

ball is that Lord Lawson's the first senior Tory to advocate pulling

:20:07.:20:11.

stumps on Brussels all together, and he's a former Chancellor, so his

:20:11.:20:15.

economic analysis bears some scrutiny. He knows his sums.

:20:16.:20:24.

The attempt to overregulate and cut down to size the financial services

:20:24.:20:28.

sector is extremely damaging to one of our biggest industries. So the

:20:28.:20:35.

economic minus is a very big one. Good shot, Sir, said another

:20:35.:20:39.

troublesome Nigel! The world feels a less lonely place for me today. I

:20:39.:20:44.

think that somebody of his magnitude saying look, this thing is gone, the

:20:44.:20:48.

economic argument is we'd be better off out of it, and anyway David

:20:49.:20:51.

Cameron's renegotiation is bound to fail is a huge boost to the

:20:51.:20:56.

Euro-sceptic cause of the UK. leaves Captain Cameron with

:20:56.:20:58.

difficulties about his field placings. Do they all need to move

:20:58.:21:03.

around to the right a bit more? Even if they do that, will the bar mist

:21:03.:21:07.

army pay any attention, or is just the wider electorate asleep in the

:21:07.:21:15.

stands? Farage wasn't snoozing. He's had a

:21:15.:21:21.

tidy little spell. How's that? ! We has precipitated a batting collapse

:21:21.:21:24.

from almost the entire British establishment. Time for David

:21:24.:21:27.

Cameron to call in the senior professional. My Government will

:21:28.:21:32.

bring forward a Bill that further reforms Britain's immigration

:21:32.:21:38.

system. The Bill will ensure that this country attracts people who

:21:38.:21:43.

will contribute and deters those who will not.

:21:43.:21:48.

A point Cameron was keen to drive home. For the first time, we'll look

:21:48.:21:51.

to ensure everyone's immigration status is checked before getting

:21:51.:21:55.

access to a private rented home, for the first time we are going to

:21:55.:21:59.

ensure anyone not eligible for free health care foots the bill for the

:21:59.:22:02.

health care through themselves or their Government, and for the first

:22:02.:22:06.

time, foreign nationals who commit serious crimes will, whenever

:22:06.:22:09.

possible be deported first and appeal second from their home

:22:09.:22:15.

country. David Cameron's tactics could work.

:22:15.:22:19.

The immigration stuff may prove popular and by dropping cigarette

:22:19.:22:23.

packaging rules and alcohol minimum pricing, he's going to please some

:22:23.:22:27.

of his own supporters. The opposition predictably gave it all

:22:27.:22:31.

the slow hand clap. The lesson for the Prime Minister

:22:31.:22:38.

is, you can't out-Farage Farage. Three wasted years, three wasted

:22:38.:22:46.

years. Today another wasted chance and no answers speech. Out of touch,

:22:46.:22:49.

out of ideas, standing up for the wrong people and unable to bring the

:22:49.:22:53.

change the country needs. David Cameron did well yesterday,

:22:53.:22:57.

certainly catching everything that came his way.

:22:57.:23:02.

Ooh, just like me! This is a Queen's Speech that will back aspiration and

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those who want to get on. This is a Queen's Speech that will make our

:23:06.:23:08.

country competitive once again. Thises a Queen's Speech that will

:23:09.:23:12.

cut our deficit, grow our economy, deliver a better future four our

:23:12.:23:15.

children and help us to win the global race and I commend it to the

:23:15.:23:17.

House. Danger has not passed. David

:23:17.:23:23.

Cameron's going to need one of these. A cricketer's box. The reason

:23:23.:23:26.

- Nadine Dorries is back. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, the

:23:26.:23:30.

star of I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here! Has been readmitted to the

:23:30.:23:34.

Conservative Parliamentary party and, when Nadine is around, you need

:23:34.:23:42.

protection! Right! I'm ready for her.

:23:42.:23:46.

Meanwhile, one of the deputy speakers of the House of Commons,

:23:46.:23:49.

Nigel Evans, the third Nigel, was arrested on suspicion of rape and

:23:49.:23:54.

sexual assault. Funny old game, cricket, funny old game politics.

:23:54.:23:58.

The complaints are completely false and I cannot understand why they

:23:58.:24:02.

have been made, especially as I have continued to socialise with one as

:24:02.:24:07.

recently as last week. I appreciate the way the police have

:24:07.:24:11.

handled this in such a sensitive manner, and I would like to thank my

:24:11.:24:15.

colleagues, friends and members of the public who 've expressed their

:24:15.:24:22.

support and like me a sense of incee dullty at these events. Sticky

:24:22.:24:27.

wickets being hit for six and tonked out of the ground, it all happens at

:24:27.:24:32.

Westminster as the main leaders know all too well after the last few days

:24:32.:24:36.

-- incredulity. You coming then? Time for the 19th

:24:37.:24:45.

hole... Silly fool, he's got the wrong game!

:24:45.:24:49.

Two Quentin let for the price of one. Miranda is back, thank you for

:24:49.:24:53.

joining us again. Good evening. Michael Portillo, after writing in

:24:54.:24:59.

the Times that you thought we should leave the EU, when did you come to

:25:00.:25:07.

that view? A while ago.You 've never said they should leave the

:25:07.:25:12.

European Union? Since David Cameron said there would be a referendum I

:25:12.:25:16.

said I would vote out. Do you remember that? I remember Michael

:25:16.:25:21.

being critical of the tactics. That's a different matter. But I

:25:22.:25:27.

must say, I'm surprised that you are surprised. If the Prime Minister

:25:27.:25:33.

gives you an opportunity... surprised that you're surprised that

:25:33.:25:37.

he's surprised... Why shouldn't people express their view as to how

:25:37.:25:42.

they'd vote in the referendum in the event of this occurring? When we had

:25:42.:25:46.

Nigel Farage on the programme last week, you said Tories should do

:25:46.:25:53.

nothing in response. This is not a response to UKIP. The timing's

:25:53.:25:58.

purely fortuitous? What I said to Nigel Farage last week, was that I

:25:58.:26:01.

agreed that it was not right-wing to be Euro-sceptic and secondly, you

:26:01.:26:06.

told him I was a Euro-sceptic. What does all this mean if it doesn't

:26:06.:26:11.

mean we want to leave the European Union? It means in David Cameron's

:26:11.:26:18.

eyes is, you go and get a better deal, as he'd see it. But he'll not

:26:18.:26:22.

get a better deal. I know that you think that, but not every

:26:22.:26:25.

Euro-sceptic wants to leave the Europe. No, and that in a way is the

:26:25.:26:29.

disgrace of the whole thing. The people offering the referendum are

:26:29.:26:33.

saying, we want to whinge and complain about the European Union,

:26:33.:26:38.

but we'll recommend you all stay in because we are not brave enough to

:26:38.:26:42.

leave the European Union. The things they aidify as being wrong with our

:26:42.:26:45.

relationship with the European Union are fundamental and they'll not be

:26:45.:26:48.

solved by a little renegotiation. If the Prime Minister is serious about

:26:48.:26:51.

offering us a referendum, and he's only partly serious because the

:26:51.:26:56.

chances of his being in office are not very high, but if he's serious,

:26:56.:27:02.

he must expect people to express their view about what we should do,

:27:02.:27:06.

stay or leave. But the negotiation, he has to win the next election,

:27:06.:27:10.

whatever the outcome though, he'll say stay, in he'll say you have to

:27:10.:27:15.

vote yes? Sure he will.Because you think in the end his heart is that

:27:15.:27:19.

Britain's future belongs in Europe? No, no, no, his heart is not in that

:27:19.:27:23.

at all. No, no. So why is he saying it? He and the Chancellor of the

:27:23.:27:26.

Exchequer and the others know, as well as I do that the relationship

:27:26.:27:31.

between the UK and Europe is fundamentally flaw and disastrous,

:27:31.:27:34.

but the Government doesn't have the courage to say the solution is to

:27:34.:27:36.

leave the European Union. There's no way you can say the Prime Minister's

:27:36.:27:40.

heart is in it. I wouldn't accuse him of that! Shouldn't you have led

:27:40.:27:45.

the way on this, rather than jumping on the bandwagon after Mr Lamont and

:27:45.:27:50.

Lawson and UKIP doing well last week? Well, I have been saying to

:27:50.:27:53.

anyone who's asked me since the Prime Minister announced there would

:27:53.:27:59.

be a referendum that I would vote out. To me...Let me just continue.

:27:59.:28:04.

One thing that astonished me was that the entourage, who're close to

:28:04.:28:09.

the Government, looked at me in incredulity" You would vote to

:28:09.:28:14.

leave". They are as surprised as we are? Why is it extraordinary to

:28:14.:28:19.

think this relationship... Do you think he's jumping on a bandwagon?

:28:19.:28:23.

No, there was a lot of passion in his argument and his real argument

:28:23.:28:28.

is about the way the Single Currency is going and the view that it was an

:28:28.:28:33.

outrageous act of arrogance to force countries like Greece, Spain and

:28:33.:28:36.

others into the Single Currency. Michael appears to be following the

:28:36.:28:43.

UKIP line on the basis of now is the time to leave the European Union and

:28:43.:28:46.

I think he's been unfair to the Prime Minister because if you are

:28:46.:28:50.

the Prime Minister of this country and you have this obsession on his

:28:50.:28:53.

benches with Europe and this keeps coming up over and again, you have

:28:53.:28:57.

to try and diffuse it some way. I think there was a lot of cynicism in

:28:57.:29:03.

going back to Brussels and trying to get that. Like Michael, I don't

:29:03.:29:08.

think anything will come from that. I sympathise with the Prime Minister

:29:08.:29:13.

given that on their benches, they are still obsessing about Europe.

:29:13.:29:23.

Given that, Miranda, how would you therefore say what the implications

:29:23.:29:29.

are. This enormously Euro-sceptic party is in coalition with the most

:29:29.:29:39.
:29:39.:29:45.

party for David Cameron to handle in terms of party management. Everybody

:29:45.:29:49.

knows that the Lib Dems unashamedly pro-European. Actually, this is

:29:49.:29:54.

quite interesting, because you are starting to get a discussion of the

:29:54.:29:59.

merits of the case. I profoundly hope that, you have had a rash of

:29:59.:30:02.

people coming out in The Times this week, which has doing a let's get

:30:02.:30:07.

out series, there is now an opportunity for the people who have

:30:07.:30:11.

been a bit hopeless in arguing the pro-case, to explain why it is a

:30:11.:30:16.

false spectre. This idea that we cannot build trading ties with the

:30:16.:30:20.

rising economies of Asia, for example, whilst we are in the EU, is

:30:20.:30:25.

completely bonkers. We do not need to leave the EU to trade with the

:30:25.:30:30.

rest of the world. Michael's point was that Europe is lumbered with the

:30:30.:30:33.

euro and the Eurozone and all it covers, and this will not be

:30:33.:30:38.

resolved quickly, and for the next ten years the Euro elite will obsess

:30:38.:30:43.

about the euro and how to save the Eurozone - correct me if I am not

:30:43.:30:50.

summarising you properly. And that there is no future in that. The

:30:50.:30:57.

world is moving on and passing us by. Countries who operate on the

:30:57.:31:00.

European continent but are not heart of the use still have to operate

:31:00.:31:05.

under the trading law. So even if you feel passionately that the use

:31:05.:31:08.

should go back to something that is more akin to an economic and trading

:31:09.:31:13.

relationship, rather than something broader, it is madness for the UK to

:31:13.:31:16.

be outside of the European Union, because we have to operate under

:31:16.:31:20.

those trading rules, so we want to be in there making sure the British

:31:20.:31:26.

perspective is represented. We have important allies. Europe is not some

:31:26.:31:33.

Franco-German machine. But its obsession is with the Euro. The

:31:33.:31:36.

Eurozone and trying to get that right dominates everything else, and

:31:36.:31:40.

the price the European elite is prepared to make ordinary people pay

:31:40.:31:46.

to keep the Eurozone intact is a price he does not want to pay, and

:31:46.:31:52.

increasingly European people may not want to pay. 57% youth unemployment

:31:52.:31:58.

in Spain, for a start. Absolutely. There was a problem with democratic

:31:58.:32:05.

consent across the European Union. You mean there is not any. There is

:32:05.:32:09.

a huge democratic deficit. You have UKIP here and similar sorts of

:32:09.:32:13.

movements in other European countries, which are trying to say,

:32:13.:32:17.

we want our democratic rights asserted. But to say the UK at this

:32:17.:32:21.

moment in history should get out across this is a particular problem

:32:21.:32:25.

in the Eurozone is madness. I hope we get the proper debate about in or

:32:25.:32:31.

out. Let Michael reply and we can start the debate. Part of it is

:32:31.:32:36.

economic, that the European Union is led by a lot of ideologues, who want

:32:36.:32:39.

the European Union more than anything else and expect other

:32:39.:32:45.

people to pay any price for it. And the price is very, very high. It is

:32:45.:32:49.

also that they are going to be so obsessed with the Euro for so long

:32:49.:32:51.

that they are unaware that they need to compete with the rest of the

:32:51.:32:56.

world, so Europe is becoming less competitive. One of the responses of

:32:56.:33:00.

the European Union is to say because European citizens are suffering, we

:33:00.:33:02.

have two increase the welfare state, making ourselves less

:33:02.:33:09.

competitive. At another level, it is different. I believe we are, the

:33:09.:33:13.

British people, suited to being in the European Union. It is like

:33:13.:33:19.

saying, why isn't a fish a stag. It simply is not. We are not

:33:19.:33:22.

temperamentally suited to the European Union. It has worried me,

:33:22.:33:26.

and this is why I thought I would write an article rather than telling

:33:26.:33:29.

other people how I would vote, is that the weakness demonstrated why

:33:29.:33:32.

the government in saying, we will have a referendum but we recommend

:33:32.:33:37.

that we stay in, that weakness means the political establishment in this

:33:37.:33:40.

country will never be strong enough to leave, meaning it will always be

:33:40.:33:45.

weak enough to go into the full European Union. And if we do not

:33:45.:33:49.

leave now, we will eventually be sucked into the whole thing, the

:33:49.:33:52.

euro, the Eurozone and all the catastrophe that is occurring on the

:33:52.:33:59.

continent. Allen, if Michael is right and you are right that any

:33:59.:34:02.

attempt at renegotiation will produce pennies, like Wilson in

:34:02.:34:07.

1975, if you are right there was to be a vote between the choice of the

:34:07.:34:13.

British people bash the status quo of Europe, and getting out, this

:34:13.:34:20.

country would probably vote to get out. I don't know.That is why you

:34:20.:34:26.

will not give them the vote. We gave them the vote in 1975-76. But the

:34:26.:34:33.

view that the Conservative party of -- the Conservative party's problems

:34:33.:34:37.

about Europe, that is a problem with the Conservatives, not the rest of

:34:37.:34:43.

the British people. There is a case to say the argument for Europe has

:34:43.:34:50.

gone by default. People stopped arguing, for some reason when the

:34:50.:34:52.

Britain and Europe movement and the single currency argument finished,

:34:52.:34:56.

nobody bothered to make the arguing for Europe any more, and in that

:34:56.:35:00.

sense it is good to have the debate. But it is very much a Conservative

:35:00.:35:05.

party view. Cameron is responding to a Conservative party problem that he

:35:05.:35:08.

got defeated on over and over again, the issue that it is terrible to

:35:08.:35:13.

give workers any protection, it all comes from Europe, the argument

:35:13.:35:17.

about immigration. Michael did not use any of those arguments, but that

:35:17.:35:22.

is a problem for the Prime Minister. He has to find a way out of it, so

:35:22.:35:28.

he invents this renegotiation. final question to you. It is not

:35:28.:35:32.

exactly helpful to the coalition. This is salt in the wound, is it

:35:32.:35:39.

not? I do not see it like that. It is such a domestic party issue. And

:35:39.:35:44.

tomorrow's Guardian, Nigel Lawson's intervention is described as

:35:44.:35:48.

throwing a grenade into a small building. That small building is the

:35:48.:35:53.

Conservative party. It is not the preoccupation of the mass of people.

:35:53.:35:56.

UKIP supporters are more concerned about the economy than about

:35:56.:36:00.

Britain's place in Europe. Thank you.

:36:00.:36:03.

Now, One Direction have done it, Prince Harry's about to do it. But

:36:03.:36:07.

even we were taken aback at reports this week that Daily Mail columnist

:36:07.:36:10.

Melanie Philips has decided the one thing America lacks is a decent dose

:36:10.:36:13.

of social conservatism, and decided to have a crack at breaking America.

:36:13.:36:16.

And in order to give her British Invasion some commercial teeth,

:36:16.:36:19.

she's re-branded herself with a fancy website and a funky new logo.

:36:20.:36:22.

You can now buy, online, a Melanie Philips baseball cap for �23.20,

:36:22.:36:30.

excluding delivery. And no, this is not a joke, this is capitalism in

:36:30.:36:34.

all its glory. So why are we so obsessed with everything Yankee? We

:36:34.:36:37.

decided to find out and put our fascination with America in this

:36:37.:36:47.
:36:47.:37:01.

and a child held captive for years in an otherwise unremarkable

:37:01.:37:04.

Cleveland house has not just dominated the news in the US but in

:37:04.:37:11.

the UK, too. It follows wall-to-wall coverage of the Boston bombings, the

:37:11.:37:15.

subsequent manhunt, not to mention Guant?namo hunger strikes, targeted

:37:15.:37:23.

drone strikes and 3-D printed guns. So why do we have such an insatiable

:37:23.:37:28.

appetite for all American stories? Do shared values and language

:37:28.:37:32.

explain why it's politics has asked in its grip, whether it be

:37:32.:37:37.

presidential elections, or presidential one-liners? Some things

:37:37.:37:41.

are beyond my control, for example this controversy about Jay-Z going

:37:42.:37:49.

to Cuba. It is unbelievable. I have 99 problems, and now Jay-Z is one.

:37:49.:37:53.

May be the fascination is not entirely one-way, with Prince

:37:53.:38:00.

Harry's wild West adventure staring excitement in Washington, DC, if not

:38:00.:38:05.

the casinos of Las Vegas. Are we right to give so much attention to

:38:05.:38:09.

the world's only superpower? Or do we risk ignoring the rest of the

:38:09.:38:13.

world in the process? Never let it be said that we would ever be so

:38:13.:38:20.

starstruck. Welcome to the show. It is the

:38:20.:38:24.

richest, most powerful country in the world, it almost speaks

:38:24.:38:28.

English. Really, we should not be surprised that the Brits are

:38:28.:38:34.

obsessed with it. Yes, well, I think you are obsessed with America's on

:38:34.:38:43.

Basque. Do you know what I mean? America has all the culture, the

:38:43.:38:48.

Hollywood movies, the action movies. They are just an extension,

:38:48.:38:55.

I think, of American militarism. It is just this big, explosive thing.

:38:55.:39:02.

And I think that you guys, being a little reserved, I think you guys

:39:02.:39:07.

like look at America and go, my gosh, look at that, they are

:39:07.:39:17.
:39:17.:39:17.

exploding everything! And you get drawn to the emotional, it is ramped

:39:18.:39:23.

up emotionally in America. But it is also on music summer television,

:39:23.:39:27.

movies. American popular culture is the most powerful popular culture in

:39:27.:39:30.

the world and we have no barriers to it because we share the same

:39:30.:39:39.

language. The French, Germans and others, they have some... Americans

:39:39.:39:44.

are very provincial, too. Though I understand that. That is what annoys

:39:44.:39:48.

us. We are obsessed with America but they could not give a monkeys about

:39:48.:39:58.
:39:58.:40:02.

us unless it is the Royal family. Actually, the tissue culture, I am a

:40:02.:40:09.

comedian and I grew up loving Monty Python's flying Circus. Absolutely

:40:09.:40:15.

adoring it. Douglas Adams, hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, all

:40:15.:40:24.

of that stuff. It is a two-way thing. One of the reasons why we are

:40:24.:40:27.

interested in America is because what happens there are usually

:40:27.:40:31.

happens here about six months or a year later, whether it is

:40:31.:40:38.

multichannel television, cat next Apple, the latest technology, all of

:40:38.:40:46.

the big companies are American companies. The French, the Germans,

:40:46.:40:50.

the Spanish are just as drawn to America as we are, but they have the

:40:50.:40:55.

language barrier. But why so many kids in Europe speak English is that

:40:55.:40:58.

there is such cultural domination by the United States that they have to

:40:58.:41:02.

learning wish to participate. One of the things that the British get is

:41:02.:41:05.

the feeling of non-provincialism if they understand the United States,

:41:05.:41:09.

and it is easy to understand because the language is the same. You

:41:09.:41:15.

suddenly feel you are living in a community of 350 million. And the

:41:15.:41:24.

language for the political class, who are obsessed, with some who

:41:24.:41:30.

carry the biography of Johnson, that is a love of language. Unless you

:41:30.:41:33.

have the language commie cannot follow it as closely as you can

:41:33.:41:41.

follow Washington. Yes, that is part of the fascination but it is also

:41:42.:41:45.

the history. It is such a young country and they are so proud of

:41:45.:41:49.

their country. We are more understated and we like the fact

:41:49.:41:54.

that Americans appreciate our Royal family. But we see such bash macro

:41:54.:41:58.

something we find difficult to comprehend, which is a gut feeling

:41:58.:42:01.

that their nation, a patriotism that lives and breathes, and you can see

:42:02.:42:08.

it all the time. The fact that all of that could have been ours if we

:42:08.:42:13.

had not made the wrong decisions are few hundred years ago. Are you proud

:42:13.:42:22.

of America? You know what, I am not proud of part of America that stands

:42:22.:42:29.

around chanting USA, because I think... We do not like that bit

:42:29.:42:36.

either. I do not like that bit, we are the best. But to be the country

:42:36.:42:42.

that the rest of the world looks to for ideas and trends. That is nice.

:42:42.:42:48.

And being in America, as a comedian I am more of a critic. I am more of

:42:48.:42:53.

a critic of the homogenised culture, the corporate culture. I am

:42:53.:42:56.

a little disappointed in President Obama not being as left as I thought

:42:56.:43:03.

he was going to be. We are running out of time, but you are working

:43:03.:43:13.
:43:13.:43:16.

here at the moment. At the Soho Theatre until May 25. We will give

:43:17.:43:21.

him his medication! That's your lot for tonight, folks.

:43:21.:43:25.

But not for us. We're giving Annabel's a miss tonight. Michael

:43:25.:43:28.

needs an early night. Organising a British withdrawal from the European

:43:28.:43:32.

Union isn't something you do with a hangover. So we've decided to join

:43:32.:43:35.

him at his hostel for some Blue Nun cocoa, a snuggle, and an early night

:43:35.:43:39.

under his John Major memorial duvet. So we leave you tonight, in the week

:43:39.:43:42.

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