14/11/2013 This Week


14/11/2013

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Tonight, This Week heads into the Westminster jungle. Political big

:00:00.:00:10.

beast John Major causes a rumble, claiming there are too many posh

:00:11.:00:14.

boys in Britain's top jobs. Celebrity classics professor Mary

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Beard has taken up the Dingo Dollar Challenge. I flirted with eye muscle

:00:18.:00:28.

to, get me out of here. To be honest, I think going on this week

:00:29.:00:32.

was humiliation enough. Green shoots in the undergrowth, as

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Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney, says economic recovery has

:00:36.:00:38.

finally taken hold. The Guardian's Nick Watt will swallow anything in

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the bushtucker trial. Surviving in the outback is a tough business.

:00:46.:00:55.

There is a danger of interest rates with a sting in the tail.

:00:56.:00:58.

And it won't take us long to forget this year's celebrity contestants,

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but are we remembering those who paid the ultimate price in the right

:01:02.:01:04.

sort of way? Author and broadcaster Tony Parsons pays his respects. On

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the second Sunday of November, we remember more than the glorious

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dead. We also remember who we are as a nation.

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This Week, marginally tastier than a kangaroo testicle. Get me out of

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here! Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week.

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Please do not adjust your sets, your channel or your drinks. I'm Emily

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Maitlis. And if you're wondering where Andrew Ferguson Neill is,

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well, what can I say? We've deleted him. We did. All of him. It took a

:01:32.:01:37.

while, and some technical support. But if Tory Central Office can wipe

:01:38.:01:40.

ten years of speeches, press releases, and broken promises from

:01:41.:01:43.

our collective political memory, why can't This Week? Think of it as our

:01:44.:01:47.

own small contribution to austerity and a saving on the licence fee.

:01:48.:01:50.

We've removed every trace of AF Neill, dating back to 2003. If you

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try and look for him here in the studio, or online, or stuffing his

:01:55.:01:58.

pockets with free baklava in the first class lounge at Dubai Airport,

:01:59.:02:01.

you will encounter a robot blocker which stops all communication and

:02:02.:02:04.

makes a high pitched whining sound like this. "Mmmmm". Could come in

:02:05.:02:08.

handy later in the show. Speaking of those we can forgive but never

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forget, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men happy to pierce

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anything in the name of publicity. Think of them as the David Dimbleby

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and Cheryl Cole of late night political chat. I speak, of course,

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of #manontheleft, Alan "AJ" Johnson, #sadmanonatrain, Michael "Choo Choo"

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Portillo. They haven't moved from the sofa since this time last week,

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but its given them plenty of time to think of their Moment of the Week.

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Mine are contrasting moments. The interest rate decisions of the

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European Central Bank and the Bank of England. The Europeans are

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worried about prices falling, because debt is get bigger, because

:02:46.:02:52.

money is worth less. On the other hand, the Bank of England is worried

:02:53.:02:58.

about inflation. Why? Because wages are not rising so living standards

:02:59.:03:01.

are falling. I think the British Government's strategy had been,

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let's have inflation because it will make debt smaller. But without

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income rising, there has been a big about turn and now we are going to

:03:12.:03:14.

try to bring down our rate of interest. That means putting

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interest rates up. You think we are heading that way. The Bank of

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England has rotted forward by a year and a half. Last night's BBC News

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from Colombo in Sri Lanka. There was first of all a government

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spokesman, who was absolutely implacable and on movable, and

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conceding nothing on human rights, and was very insulting towards this

:03:43.:03:46.

country and the Prime Minister. And then the site of the BBC reporter

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and cameraman almost being assaulted by security guards to stop them

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asking a question of the President. I thought it was amazing but it also

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changed my mind about the Prime Minister going to Sri Lanka. If he

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had not been going there would have been a short news clip where they

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announced he was not going, and we would have seen nothing of that. I

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think that told the British people more about what is going on in Sri

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Lanka than acres of newsprint. Now this week our PM has come under

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attack on the same subject from both Russell Brand and former Prime

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Minister, John Major. One called him "a filthy dirty posh banker". I

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won't tell you what Russell said. They're both concerned that society

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is increasingly run by a public school elite, distant from the

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everyday concerns of the plebeian hoi polloi, to mix our classical

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references. So are they right to be concerned, and is there anything we

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can learn from the ancient world to help put things right? We turned to

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TV don and Cambridge professor Mary Beard. This is her Take of the Week.

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As a professor of classics who does some TV, I spend most of my life

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reminding people that Latin and Greek you might think are out of

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date and irrelevant, but are actually fun, interesting and really

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matter. It strikes me that someone needs to do that for politics.

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Even ex-prime minister 's are getting fed up. This week, John

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Major had a point when he said the country was still run by toffs and

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the affluent. I mean, you only have two blink and it seems like there is

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yet another old Etonian in power. And as for dear old Russell Brand,

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telling people not to vote, what a load of Tosh. My mum always used to

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say to me, someone died to get you your vote. You Da one well use it.

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-- you am well use it. But Russell Brand was right that we have got

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disengaged with politics. I think that is because politicians no

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longer seem to be speaking to us. They are just reading from a

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preprepared script. Try listening to a struggling junior minister on the

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today programme trying to remember their lines, if you want to know

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what I mean. What happened to ideology, passion? We don't want

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government I focus group. We don't want government by slogan. If I hear

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that phrase hard-working families one more time I will be rushing to

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the barricades and setting up a party for lazy singletons.

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It may be that ancient Athens as have something to teach us. One of

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their best ideas was what they called ostracism. Every year, the

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citizens got together and decided there was some politician they would

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just like to be rid of for ten years. Dead easy. They got little

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bits of broken pottery, scratched the name and threw it into the

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ballot box. Hey presto. Now, how exactly do you spell Portillo?

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And from the British Academy at Carlton House Terrace to our own

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little academy of national treasures here in the heart of Westminster,

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Mary Beard joins us now. Democracy has been going on for a long time.

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Is it really in crisis? In some ways, every Democrat always thinks

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democracy is in crisis. That is what being a Democrat is about, saying we

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could do it better. But there is a kind of commercialisation of it. I

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think Russell Brand is onto something when he is saying is a

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disconnect between us and them. The problem with them is not that they

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are well-meaning. But a lot of them are going into this for all the

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right reasons. But all they are doing is talking blasted sound

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bites. That is the hard-working families it. It must be ghastly.

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Sometimes when I am feeling generous, I think, how ghastly it

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must be to be one of you. You have given up. Don't worry. I think

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democracy is in crisis for the opposite reason. We had not had

:08:52.:08:59.

democracy for ages. We had it in the fifth century BC and put it away for

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2000 years. Democracy now is a new experiment. In 1941 there were 11

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democracies and there are now 105. It is conceivable it is in crisis

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because most of us have very little experience of it. What democracy

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tends to do, it gets competing politicians to promise too much.

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Because they have out bid each other. The only way you can then get

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high is by borrowing from future generations, which is where we have

:09:30.:09:33.

got to. We are too indebted. Our governments are far too indebted.

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And yet politicians go on the missing more than they can afford.

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You are being much too gloomy. I do not want to go that to fit century

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Athens. People like me did not have any say. Being a woman, no say, no

:09:49.:09:55.

vote, no nothing. When I think it was 100 years ago, I would not have

:09:56.:10:01.

had the vote. Somebody says to me that democracy has not been coming

:10:02.:10:06.

on of late. I think, we are not doing that bad in all respects. But

:10:07.:10:16.

I sit town and I think about MPs in Parliament, looking at their iPhone

:10:17.:10:21.

in the morning and being told the slogan of the day is hard-working

:10:22.:10:25.

families. They did not go into politics for that. Did you? What

:10:26.:10:32.

about the junior minister who has to come up with an alarm clock, and

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stick to what they have been told? It is painful, isn't it? It is

:10:38.:10:43.

painful and I was a junior minister doing it one day. But that is about

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the media. It is the 24-7 media that makes demands on politicians. So you

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are saying they have to do that? It would be unusual, or the presenter

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says, we invited a government minister but none was prepared to

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come. The way that you do it is important. You do not have to sound

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like a speaking clock, as if you are reading a brief. You are not usually

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talking about great affairs of War and peace, but about a policy you

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are responsible for and helped to shape. It is not difficult to put

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some interest into it. It is also perfectly respectable. Anybody who

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runs an enterprising common with others, a company, a football team,

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the school play, you have to agree on what your position is. In

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politics it is more complicated because you are trying to win the

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vote. So the coalition of interests is very broad. But then you have to

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say not what you think or believe what you have agreed with others to

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say. That is a perfectly respectable thing to do. But if you do it for 20

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or 30 years it becomes very wearing, always remembering to say what you

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have agreed with others. Keeps saying hard-working families and

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slogans like that. I think most of the electorate, we know that

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politics is a very inexact science. We know there are not right answers.

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We know there are disagreements. And we know there are mistakes. When a

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politician breaks a promise, like Nick Clegg on the fees. Do you

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think, I understand what led to him doing that, or do you think, he

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broke the promise I am never forgiving a Lib Dem again? You are

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trading in certainties. It is no good to trade in simple certainties.

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Better that they tell us nothing? It is always more complicated. We can

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take over the idea that it is complicated. We do not have to be

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told, whether it is in foreign policy, that this regime is nasty

:12:58.:13:01.

until we discover it is nice, or vice versa. We do not have to say we

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know about -- what to do about student fees, debt, inflation. We

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know that we do not know. What happened to Nick Clegg is an

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important lesson. He made promises because he never thought he would be

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in office. What should the electorate do with that information?

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They should think, who is not going to be in office next time? People

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like UKIP. Therefore, we should understand they are only saying

:13:29.:13:31.

things because they know they are not going to be in office. Does that

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apply to Russell Brand? I tried hard to find something in what Russell

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Brand said, because he has 7.1 million Twitter followers, all of

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them under 30, and younger people were telling me that he is onto

:13:47.:13:52.

something. But having read through a lot of his stuff, the New Statesman

:13:53.:13:56.

piece in particular, I could find nothing other than trying to

:13:57.:14:06.

intellectualise his apathy. I have one answer to Russell Brand which is

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to say, you do not not vote. You go to the polling station, cross it out

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if you do not like them on the ballot paper and you put, none of

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the above, spoiled paper. And one day the returning officer will have

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to get up and say, there were 20,000 spoiled ballot papers, and I think

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we declare the spoiled ballot the winner. Mary has made a very good

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point, that there is a lot of laziness in politics, but it is

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nothing by comparison with the laziness of the critics of politics,

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and Russell Brand is an example of that absolute basic intellectual

:14:44.:14:49.

laziness. So, what do you do with all of the people that want to

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follow him? That interview got 10 million hits on Youtube. What do you

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do with that integrated, enthusiastic apathy? The one thing

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he did have a point about is, young people today, and we were speaking

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about educational maintenance allowance and student fees, there

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seems to be, this is very broad brush, but elderly people are

:15:16.:15:20.

protected, younger people are not. As someone has pointed out, all the

:15:21.:15:24.

people vote, and therefore politicians perhaps play to that

:15:25.:15:28.

audience. So, the things which Russell Brand wants, which is, to

:15:29.:15:33.

save the planet, he says, and a more equal society, that is what I want,

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that is what I came into politics for. But I did not come into

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politics to repress all other opinions, which is what a

:15:42.:15:46.

revolution, I am afraid, actually does. Coming back to the John Major

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point, it is that politics looks the same, it is a leaps of school, of

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education and gender, which is why it is isolating so many people? --

:15:58.:16:03.

it is a leets. Yes, but you have got to face up to Russell Brand and you

:16:04.:16:11.

have got to argue about method. -- it is elites. It is no good to say,

:16:12.:16:18.

what a load of Tosh politics is. That is what you learn from the

:16:19.:16:21.

ancient world, you do not learn any single method, you learn that

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politics is about being a citizen, but is what we all are. Every single

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one of us is a politician, and it is our duty to think about it in a

:16:31.:16:35.

properly conjugated way, and to hold you guys up to account for being so

:16:36.:16:41.

simplistic! We do not like simplicity. Is it not the case than

:16:42.:16:46.

in ancient Greece, the people were obliged to participate in politics?

:16:47.:16:52.

On one occasion. Did you get an invitation to the jungle this time?

:16:53.:16:58.

I could not possibly comment. Now, it is late, and Tony Parsons joins

:16:59.:17:09.

us now to discuss the politics of remembrance. Here, I am

:17:10.:17:23.

contractually obliged to plug something on the internet, and here

:17:24.:17:27.

is the page, for those of you who still use Facebook. Not that long

:17:28.:17:32.

ago, in a studio not far away, there was Newsnight. People between eight

:17:33.:17:40.

team and 23 turned out in their hundreds this week to audition for

:17:41.:17:45.

the new Star Wars film. -- between 18 and 23. We sent Nick Watt of the

:17:46.:17:49.

Guardian to join them. Mum, I think when I grow up, I want

:17:50.:18:08.

to be Luke Skywalker, or maybe I want to be Neil Kinnock. I have not

:18:09.:18:20.

decided yet. Open auditions have started in Bristol for the next Star

:18:21.:18:23.

Wars film. Tel work I am off sick. Can I take

:18:24.:18:40.

the car? In politics, you only get one shot at realising your dreams.

:18:41.:18:45.

Everybody is after the top job, and you end up playing the hero or the

:18:46.:18:55.

villain. Let's go. Westminster's leading man, that's the Prime

:18:56.:18:58.

Minister, once told us that he takes no pleasure in imposing

:18:59.:19:05.

intergalactic spending cuts. Then he stood up in front of the City's

:19:06.:19:10.

finest and said, perhaps austerity was not that bad after all. It means

:19:11.:19:15.

building a leaner, more efficient state. We need to do more with less,

:19:16.:19:21.

not just now but permanently. It can be done. The Prime Minister would

:19:22.:19:26.

like us to think that that is what he has always believed, but it is a

:19:27.:19:29.

little difficult to know exactly what he does and after the Tories

:19:30.:19:34.

deleted nearly a decade's worth of speeches from their website. This is

:19:35.:19:37.

what he had to say about austerity in 2009. And in 2010...

:19:38.:19:52.

These are not the files you are looking for. This was jolly handy,

:19:53.:19:58.

because in 2010, the Prime Minister said that he was introducing out of

:19:59.:20:02.

necessity, not out of ideological zeal. The Prime Minister believes

:20:03.:20:08.

that his health and education reforms show that efficiency rather

:20:09.:20:13.

than cash can deliver change. The danger for him is that he sends

:20:14.:20:17.

mixed messages and hands a gift to his understudy, who is desperate to

:20:18.:20:22.

differentiate himself from the Tories. On the right of British

:20:23.:20:29.

politics, you have got a view which says, it is good to cut for its own

:20:30.:20:35.

sake. I do not think you should be ideological about trying to slash

:20:36.:20:39.

the size of the state. On the left, you have got a view which says you

:20:40.:20:47.

should spend for its own sake. But it is a brave Tory Prime Minister

:20:48.:20:50.

who says it is right to cut out of choice, when Labour is ahead in the

:20:51.:20:57.

poles on things like schools and hospitals. -- in the polls. Oh, no,

:20:58.:21:05.

iPod rocket fuel in the engine, not unleaded. Mum is going to kill me.

:21:06.:21:16.

-- I put rocket fuel. For the first time in a long time, you do not have

:21:17.:21:20.

to be an optimist to see that the glass is half full. Good economic

:21:21.:21:30.

news always comes with a health warning. The quicker than expected

:21:31.:21:34.

fall in unemployment means that the governor is going to have to bring

:21:35.:21:37.

forward his assessment of whether interest rates should rise. Mark

:21:38.:21:43.

Carney downplayed suggestions that rates would be shooting up just

:21:44.:21:47.

before the general election. Labour maintained its focus on the cost of

:21:48.:21:51.

living, and what one of its rising stars described as the pernicious

:21:52.:21:55.

effect of the bedroom tax. Sorry, the spare room subsidy.

:21:56.:22:07.

If the government sticks its head in the sand, let no one be in any

:22:08.:22:12.

doubt, this will be the beginning, not the end, of our campaign to

:22:13.:22:17.

cancel this unjust and unworkable tax, and if the Government does not

:22:18.:22:20.

repeal it, the next Labour government will.

:22:21.:22:34.

There is no danger of a winter health crisis for the Prime

:22:35.:22:39.

Minister, who jetted off to India on a trade mission this week. He is

:22:40.:22:43.

then heading to Sri Lanka for the Commonwealth Heads of Government

:22:44.:22:45.

meeting. Labour is telling the Prime Minister he should boycott it in

:22:46.:22:50.

protest at the treatment from Colombo of the Tamil minority at the

:22:51.:22:57.

end of the 26 year war. There are legitimate accusations of war crimes

:22:58.:23:00.

which need to be properly investigated. That is actually what

:23:01.:23:04.

the Sri Lankan government with its own reconciliation exercise found,

:23:05.:23:08.

that there were more questions to be answered. But that needs to be

:23:09.:23:14.

done. Great, that is my audition over. Oh, one person who will not be

:23:15.:23:19.

sending any takes any time soon is Nadine Dorries, who had to apologise

:23:20.:23:30.

for failing to declare her feet for appearing on I Am A Celebrity. I

:23:31.:23:36.

wish to apologise to the house for what was a genuinely inadvertent

:23:37.:23:37.

breach of the rules. It has arrived! They love my

:23:38.:23:54.

audition tape, and they want me to join the set in Australia.

:23:55.:24:06.

Well, whilst Nick Watt was securing his future in Star Wars, we have had

:24:07.:24:13.

Miranda Green joining us on the sofa. And you have it all to

:24:14.:24:18.

yourself, unlike these guys, bunched up together. The economy, you have

:24:19.:24:24.

already said you think there is going to be a rise in interest

:24:25.:24:27.

rates, so do you see the glass as half full? I do, but I think the

:24:28.:24:34.

growth of the economy, although it brings many benefits, also brings

:24:35.:24:38.

challenges. House prices are rising very fast in London and the

:24:39.:24:45.

south-east, but my view is that with this huge pool of unemployed

:24:46.:24:48.

labourer in the European Community, there will be a lot of immigration

:24:49.:24:52.

into this country, which will keep wage levels low. So, wages are

:24:53.:24:57.

unlikely to increase very much, and prices are increasing very fast,

:24:58.:25:01.

which is one reason interest rates have to go up. However, if interest

:25:02.:25:07.

rates go up, that drives people's mortgages up, so at least one

:25:08.:25:10.

section of the population will be hurting. What would you be saying to

:25:11.:25:20.

Labour now about Plan A, and how to counter it? I do not think they need

:25:21.:25:28.

any advice from me. We used to be asked, how come, if the economy is

:25:29.:25:31.

doing so badly, Labour are profiting from it? Turn it around, how come,

:25:32.:25:37.

coming out of recession, Labour are ten points ahead? It is obviously

:25:38.:25:43.

something to do with the switch towards standard of living, and the

:25:44.:25:48.

fact that people are not feeling any gain from this, particularly where I

:25:49.:25:53.

represent, up in the North. I do not know where I am with Cameron now. If

:25:54.:25:59.

you years ago, he was criticising us for not expanding the amount of

:26:00.:26:03.

money we were spending on education and health as quickly as he wanted

:26:04.:26:06.

to, but now, he wants a small estate. A few years ago, Osborne was

:26:07.:26:12.

talking about exports and investment, but now it looks like

:26:13.:26:17.

exactly as it did before, based on debt and a housing bubble. And yet

:26:18.:26:28.

Plan A... It is quite hard you can hardly say that Osborne has been a

:26:29.:26:31.

raving success. The fiscal deficit, which was the big issue for

:26:32.:26:35.

government, they said, that is what we have got to get down, next year

:26:36.:26:40.

it will be something like 79 billion. Our GDP is still 2.5% lower

:26:41.:26:46.

than it was before the crisis. In America, France and Germany, it is

:26:47.:26:51.

above that. But what is worrying for Labour is that Cameron is ahead of

:26:52.:26:58.

Miliband, and also, the economy. But the big question is whether the

:26:59.:27:01.

Labour strategists are right, as they are now crowing, saying, people

:27:02.:27:09.

will work on -- people will vote on Micro, not macro. It is not worth

:27:10.:27:12.

Labour getting into that conversation, I think. And they have

:27:13.:27:17.

done the smart thing, which is move on to the question of how people

:27:18.:27:21.

feel. It is the Ronald Reagan slogan, you feel better off than you

:27:22.:27:26.

did at the last election? That is the real danger for the Government.

:27:27.:27:29.

Particularly on interest rates, because so far, this recession, if

:27:30.:27:36.

you are in work and a homeowner, you have got off pretty lightly, because

:27:37.:27:40.

those mortgage rates have stayed incredibly low. And we have all got

:27:41.:27:45.

used to that, so a rate rise will feel like a horrible shock to a lot

:27:46.:27:48.

of people. What do you think the Lib Dems should do now, with this change

:27:49.:27:52.

of language coming from Cameron, which basically says, we can do this

:27:53.:28:00.

alone, forget the understudy? Well, they can do it alone if the

:28:01.:28:03.

electorate gives them the opportunity to do that. I know there

:28:04.:28:07.

have been theories that David Cameron actually prefers a coalition

:28:08.:28:11.

to dealing with his own right wing, but you can actually -- cannot

:28:12.:28:18.

actually govern alone if you do not win an election. The problem his

:28:19.:28:22.

party has with him as a leader is that so far, he has not proved

:28:23.:28:28.

himself a winner. He has had to say this because as you say, he would

:28:29.:28:34.

rather lead a coalition, because there are 30-40 people in the

:28:35.:28:37.

Conservative Party who would make his life impossible. So, he has two

:28:38.:28:42.

emphasise that he wants a Conservative majority government. Is

:28:43.:28:49.

it not just part of him taking his party back into itself. The big

:28:50.:28:53.

society seems to have disappeared, other things as well, it is very

:28:54.:28:59.

much an approach for the election, and just looking to get his core

:29:00.:29:03.

vote. Well, that is not going to win him the election. The thing which

:29:04.:29:09.

has survived, like a snowman into June, is the overseas aid. Michael

:29:10.:29:15.

was mentioning immigration, and there have been strong words from

:29:16.:29:18.

Jack Straw this week, I wonder what you're made of those, when he said

:29:19.:29:24.

opening Britain's borders to Eastern European migrants was a spectacular

:29:25.:29:36.

mistake? It was 2004. The birth rate was going down, the dependency

:29:37.:29:40.

ratio, the number of people working compared to those retired, had gone

:29:41.:29:44.

down from 12 to one, when Lloyd George introduced a pension, down to

:29:45.:29:50.

four to one, and we had a 75% employment rate, one of the highest

:29:51.:29:56.

ever seen. For Sweden, Ireland and Britain, the three most successful

:29:57.:30:03.

economies, actually, there was a lot of sense to doing that. At the same

:30:04.:30:07.

time, we initiated a review that put up the state pension age. It was

:30:08.:30:12.

trying to tackle that. There was a very good argument for doing it. The

:30:13.:30:16.

fact is that they got the sums wrong and the numbers coming over here

:30:17.:30:21.

were much greater than forecast. But the actual decision to do that... I

:30:22.:30:28.

suppose it is like good economics and bad policy, in the same way as

:30:29.:30:32.

right to buy was good politics and bad economics. The point about the

:30:33.:30:38.

dependency ratio, the ratio between those working and those claiming

:30:39.:30:42.

pensions, remains grim. The document for having large scale immigration

:30:43.:30:47.

remains very strong. But it is interesting, these lines, coupled

:30:48.:30:52.

with David Blunkett's comments about the possibility of riots unless

:30:53.:30:58.

migrants change their behaviour... I don't agree with that. I think the

:30:59.:31:03.

group who recorded I predict a riot came from Leeds, not Sheffield.

:31:04.:31:09.

David would be equally appalled by this, dark forces on the right. The

:31:10.:31:14.

fact is, when we made the decision in 2004, there were only three

:31:15.:31:20.

countries that the accession countries could have freedom of

:31:21.:31:29.

movement to. His language was more emollient but he was saying there

:31:30.:31:33.

are social cohesion problems with large-scale immigration from a

:31:34.:31:35.

particular group that does not integrate, which is a fair point.

:31:36.:31:39.

But I am very nervous about this as well. There has been a huge problem

:31:40.:31:44.

for a long time. The argument Michael makes and Allen makes, I

:31:45.:31:48.

agree with wholeheartedly, that immigration is good for the economy

:31:49.:31:53.

and the country in a lot of ways. But it has remained an elite view

:31:54.:31:56.

because the political elite have refused to address the effect that

:31:57.:32:00.

it has on those groups that have to pay for it. This is UKIP creeping

:32:01.:32:08.

into every narrative from each party. There is a substance issue,

:32:09.:32:18.

too. Well motivated, qualified men from southern Europe is one thing.

:32:19.:32:23.

People who do not integrate - and I think David Blunkett was talking

:32:24.:32:26.

about Roma communities - that is a different problem. He cited

:32:27.:32:32.

particular examples of problems of integration. I think he was probably

:32:33.:32:37.

being straightforward. But the political problem it leaves us with

:32:38.:32:41.

is government targets on bringing down immigration rates in an

:32:42.:32:45.

arbitrary way, which is costing important sectors like universities

:32:46.:32:48.

and is about nothing, really, because it is not about tackling

:32:49.:32:52.

Eastern European immigration, which is the political problem in the

:32:53.:32:57.

first place. Miranda, thank you. Now, its that point in the programme

:32:58.:33:02.

where you're flagging a bit. I'm wondering what I can get away with

:33:03.:33:05.

without losing the day job. As you've heard from Mark Carney, your

:33:06.:33:09.

glass is already half full. None of that debauched Blue Nun this week.

:33:10.:33:12.

That's been deleted too. Tonight, we proffer the warm fuzzy glow of a

:33:13.:33:16.

Panda Cola left on a corner shop shelf since the mid 1970s. So finish

:33:17.:33:20.

the job and get pouring, because its time for a handbreak turn more

:33:21.:33:23.

awkward than John McCririck turning up unnannounced at Tessa Jowell's

:33:24.:33:26.

book club. It's time for the Politics of Rememberance.

:33:27.:33:40.

The nation marked a week of remembrance with Royals,

:33:41.:33:46.

politicians, veterans and the public honouring those who served and those

:33:47.:33:50.

who paid the ultimate price. With even the Lord Mayor of Belfast

:33:51.:33:55.

paying his respects, as the first Sinn Fein politician to attend an

:33:56.:34:01.

Armistice Day ceremony in person. This is the most difficult decision

:34:02.:34:04.

I have had to make in three decades of politics and community activism.

:34:05.:34:09.

My view, and a view of my Sinn Fein colleagues in the council and the

:34:10.:34:13.

country, was that it is the correct place to be today. And strangers

:34:14.:34:21.

from all over attended a funeral after a newspaper advert called for

:34:22.:34:25.

mourners for the 99 your old veteran who had few close family and friends

:34:26.:34:31.

left. But there was criticism, too, of a war movie for shooting in the

:34:32.:34:36.

Oxfordshire countryside, and an ITV newsreader for failing to wear a

:34:37.:34:40.

poppy on air. So, is the way we remember a matter of personal

:34:41.:34:45.

choice, or an obligation on us all? And how important is it to be seen

:34:46.:34:50.

to remember the dead? At least Westminster politicians know how to

:34:51.:34:54.

deflect criticism, with not a donkey jacket insight.

:34:55.:35:01.

Tony is here now. That was quite an interesting site, that sense of the

:35:02.:35:07.

importance of being seen to commemorate in the right way. It is

:35:08.:35:12.

the one moment you cannot afford to get wrong. It is our national day. I

:35:13.:35:19.

was at the Senate after on Sunday and it really does feel like our

:35:20.:35:24.

national day, when we are not in our ghetto of April the 23rd for the

:35:25.:35:27.

English and another day for the Irish. We really do feel like a

:35:28.:35:33.

United Kingdom. I think the politicians are largely superfluous.

:35:34.:35:38.

They do not need to be there. It is about the marching and the crowds,

:35:39.:35:41.

and about the glorious dead, the fallen, the men and women who are

:35:42.:35:47.

not there. You get a sense they are holding their breath, because the

:35:48.:35:52.

ghost of Michael foot hovers over those men, with their very

:35:53.:35:56.

respectable black coats and poppies in place. You get a sense that a

:35:57.:36:01.

political career could be ruined there in a moment. They do have to

:36:02.:36:07.

turn up, don't they? These are the men who have sent young men to their

:36:08.:36:13.

deaths. Tony Blair was there, hovering in the second row. Of

:36:14.:36:18.

course they have to be there. But I don't think there is an obligation

:36:19.:36:22.

to remember. You remember because it is the right thing to do, because it

:36:23.:36:26.

is a day to reflect that many of the freedoms we take for granted were

:36:27.:36:30.

hard earned and hard-won by previous generations. It is a very moving

:36:31.:36:36.

day. When you see 80-year-old veterans from the Second World War

:36:37.:36:40.

and 20-year-old kids who have lost legs in Afghanistan, it is a

:36:41.:36:46.

difficult day to not be profoundly moved by. I wonder whether it has

:36:47.:36:51.

had a greater significance possibly in the last ten or 15 years of fans

:36:52.:36:56.

certainly when I was growing up, because of all the wars. I have just

:36:57.:37:04.

noticed it over the years I have been in Parliament. There was a

:37:05.:37:07.

bigger crowd this year than ever before. Although the memory gets

:37:08.:37:12.

fainter, and the whole of the First World War generation have now gone,

:37:13.:37:16.

and the Second World War generation, who were in their 40s when I started

:37:17.:37:20.

work and worked alongside them in the Post Office, they are now into

:37:21.:37:25.

retirement. And yet more and more of the public turn up at these

:37:26.:37:28.

remembrance day services every year. I think something has brought it to

:37:29.:37:36.

prominence and importance. Iraq and Afghanistan have been a large part

:37:37.:37:42.

of it. I can remember in the 1970s, service men could not wear their

:37:43.:37:45.

uniforms on leave. That was forbidden. That has changed. There

:37:46.:37:54.

has been an assertion of national identity. The recent wars are part

:37:55.:38:02.

of it, and the sacrifice. We see the selfless quality of those World War

:38:03.:38:05.

II veterans. They are no different from the young men and women serving

:38:06.:38:10.

in Helmand. They are no different from the people that stormed the

:38:11.:38:14.

beaches at Normandy. There was a little storm this week about one

:38:15.:38:22.

newsreader on ITV who refused to wear her poppy on hair for reasons

:38:23.:38:26.

that she gave, which was that she supports a lot of charities and did

:38:27.:38:32.

not want to do them publicly. Bullying people into wearing poppies

:38:33.:38:36.

is absolutely wrong. It has become an ostentation. When it is an

:38:37.:38:41.

ostentation, you begin to doubt the sincerity of the people caught up in

:38:42.:38:45.

it. For example, if you go to a TV studio, you are more or less not

:38:46.:38:50.

allowed in unless you are wearing a poppy. If you go to a radio studio

:38:51.:38:54.

you can be there without a poppy. And do you go to lengths to put on a

:38:55.:39:01.

public radio and TV? I wear one throughout the period, although I am

:39:02.:39:04.

slightly worried about how longer period is becoming. This year

:39:05.:39:09.

started on the 27th of October, which struck me as very early. In

:39:10.:39:15.

the House of Commons, 100% of MPs wear poppies. In the population, it

:39:16.:39:21.

may be 20 or 30%. You have people wearing the poppy because they

:39:22.:39:24.

believe they have two wear it. The poppy is a very fine symbol, but

:39:25.:39:28.

like many things it can be abused as well as used. That is true. The

:39:29.:39:35.

newsreader was strange. I feel desperately sorry for any woman, and

:39:36.:39:39.

they are mostly women, that get abused by idiots on Twitter. But it

:39:40.:39:45.

was strange, her thesis, the premise that she was not wearing a poppy

:39:46.:39:48.

because she supports other charities, as though it was the

:39:49.:39:55.

dog's trust. I think it is not another charity. It is not just

:39:56.:40:02.

another charity. Wearing your poppy and remembering, for two minutes a

:40:03.:40:07.

year, people who gave their future for you, your lifestyle and

:40:08.:40:10.

liberty, and all of the things we do not think about, it is not just

:40:11.:40:16.

another charity. I think it is wrong to say that. I agree that it is

:40:17.:40:20.

special but I still do not want to tell anybody that they have to do

:40:21.:40:24.

it. And neither do I make the mistake of looking at somebody not

:40:25.:40:27.

wearing a poppy and thinking, that person does not remember, and

:40:28.:40:31.

someone who does and thinking, that person does. In Parliament, it is a

:40:32.:40:41.

different situation. You are an elected representative. Unlike the

:40:42.:40:46.

public that are not wearing one, if my constituents see me not wearing a

:40:47.:40:51.

poppy, they think somehow my views, which matter because they elected me

:40:52.:40:54.

and I'm elected on the platform of my views, that that means I am

:40:55.:40:58.

against them. What about the conflict itself? Should that have

:40:59.:41:05.

any bearing on whether you choose... I don't know what the

:41:06.:41:09.

stats were after Iraq, whether fewer people felt that they did want to,

:41:10.:41:14.

or more people felt they would. I think more people. But if there is

:41:15.:41:19.

an anger towards whether you think something is a just war or not,

:41:20.:41:24.

should that affect it? I do not think that changes the fact that

:41:25.:41:28.

young men and women have died fighting for their country. I think

:41:29.:41:33.

people feel enormous sympathy for our fighting men and women, that

:41:34.:41:36.

they are going to wars that are really not like the war that my

:41:37.:41:40.

father fought. It is not a war of national survival. We are not forced

:41:41.:41:48.

into fighting in Iraq, or the Taliban in Afghanistan. I recently

:41:49.:41:59.

read that we are there to combat the heroin industry, but the heroin

:42:00.:42:02.

industry is booming in Afghanistan. I think a lot of the ball field

:42:03.:42:07.

desperately sad that the brightest and the best, the flower of our

:42:08.:42:12.

nation are being sent off to not a better war. There is a suspicion

:42:13.:42:19.

among some people that politicians wearing poppies and talking about

:42:20.:42:24.

heroes and heroines and so on could be using it as a way to avoid having

:42:25.:42:29.

to answer questions about the causes of the wards, or the purposes of the

:42:30.:42:32.

war to which they sending young men and women. And I think we need to

:42:33.:42:41.

bear that in mind, too. The names of the dead are read out in the House

:42:42.:42:45.

of Commons now, and that seems like an ostentation, to me. It is not

:42:46.:42:50.

necessary to take Parliamentary time. It is right that they are

:42:51.:42:55.

remembered, of course. Once you start, you can't stop, can you?

:42:56.:42:58.

That's your lot for tonight folks, but not for us. I'm taking the boys

:42:59.:43:02.

out of their Annabel's comfort zone. We're heading off to The Fruit

:43:03.:43:06.

Machine in Vauxhall. It's not Rio, but its on the Victoria line. Anyway

:43:07.:43:09.

we shouldn't be telling you this. Ministers got told off this week for

:43:10.:43:12.

announcing their Parliamentary business on Twitter, instead of

:43:13.:43:15.

before the House. Professionally, it doesn't get any better than this.

:43:16.:43:18.

What a way to sign off. Good night.

:43:19.:43:25.

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