06/03/2014 This Week

versus West? Writer and commentator Douglas Murray thinks only one power

is prepared to fight it out. Vladimir Putin is determined to get

his own way and there is no evidence of any Western leader willing to

stop him. Back in the Westminster ring, the

big TV fight is Farage versus Clegg, but is it a switch on or switch off?

The Guardian's Nick Watt is getting into shape. Back home, the battle is

hotting up, the nation awaits the gladiatorial contest on our

television screen between Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage.

And a battle in a South African courtroom as the Oscar Pistorious

trial begins. Why are we so obsessed with scandal? Star of stage and

screen Rupert Everett reveals all, we hope! It is a scandal you keeping

me up so late. I can't even remember my own name.

Pour yourself a glass of the blue stuff and get ready for a good old

fashioned punch-up. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, a

week when Steve McQueen's 12 Years A Slave won in Los Angeles and

Vladimir Putin's "14 Years A Thug" won in Ukraine. The Putin

production, part of a long-running Kremlin franchise, was especially

popular in Crimea, though it could soon be a blockbuster in East

Ukraine as well. It's certainly been a good week for Wee Mad Vlad. Back

in the day, the KGB spent time and treasure turning those at the heart

of the British establishment into Soviet spies, with depressing

success. No need to bother now, not when senior national security

advisers waltz into Downing Street, waving their top secret briefings

for all to see. Philby, Burgess, McLean, eat your hearts out. Your

sort are now redundant. The usual critics have complained that

Britain's pathetic response to Russian aggression has been, well,

pathetic, our only retaliation to date being a threat to ban the

floozies of Russian oligarchs from shopping in Harrods, or taking tea

at the Ritz, or pole dancing in Annabel's. But this underestimates

how tough we've been. From the Siberian steppes to the palaces of

St Petersburg you could hear the howls of anguish when it was

announced Prince Edward would no longer be attending the Sochi

Paralympics. Oh, yes. We know how to play hardball when we have to! Now

HMS Wessex has been re-deployed, Mad Vlad must know his days are

numbered. Speaking of those whom nobody would miss, even if they were

your only friends in the Gulag Archipelago, I'm joined on the sofa

tonight by two performers who would never defect. Think of them as the

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Sussanah Reid of late night political chat. I

speak, of course, of #sadmanonatrain, Michael Portillo,

and back by absolutely no public demand whatsoever, #baffled Diane

Abbott. Welcome to you both. Your moment of the week? The coalition

got its knickers in a twist about publishing a report on immigration

which showed the impact on employment was less than they

thought it would be. But this made me reflect. The hope which the

Conservative leadership has got itself onto. The week before we saw

figures which showed net migration into the country was much higher. Up

by 60,000, double the government's target. But the thing is, if you are

in the European Union, you can't control migration. Having a target

for migration is like saying, we pledge that it will not rain next

February. You have no control over it. Also, with most of Europe doing

rather badly in the euro and Britain doing rather well, you will have

lots of immigrants coming over here. So it is a sign of economic

success. So the government is condemned to go around looking

grouchy about the fact that the economy is doing well. Also, you

then play into the UKIP game, which is you say, lots of immigration,

more immigration, very bad thing. UKIP will always trump you on that,

because they are prepared to leave the European Union, which is the

only way of stopping migration. The government ought to be saying, it is

fantastic to have migrants, a sign of economic success, we need them,

and we don't want to leave the European Union either, and that is

the battle ground between us and UKIP. That would be different. Worth

saying. Now, a really serious one. The announcement today by Theresa

May about the undercover policing and spying on the Lawrences. The

understanding is that they were spied on to get information to

discredit them because the police were more interested in discrediting

them than in finding out who killed their son. I would stress that at

the beginning of the whole Stephen Lawrence death, I was quite close to

the campaign. The Lawrences were a very ordinary family, not activists.

They were more trusting of senior police than any of us would be in

the same situation, so they feel particularly hurt. Doreen spoken

House of Lords this afternoon, almost in tears, and went home

shaking. They see it as a betrayal. I think we need to know who gave the

instruction to spy on them. It was not local police. It would have been

cleared up to Scotland Yard. Death by 1000 cuts for the police. It is a

bit. First Andrew Mitchell and now the Lawrences. This is probably the

biggest of the lot. Theresa May did look very upset by it.

Now, what do William Hague and Vladimir Putin have in common, apart

from speaking English in a funny accent? Well, they both practice the

martial art of judo. True, Mr Hague used to find himself pinned to the

floor by weedy Seb Coe, as opposed to one of Putin's black belt KGB

killers. But the Foreign Secretary still claims he's up for a fight,

describing the situation in Ukraine as "the biggest crisis in Europe in

the 21st century" that "will require all our diplomatic efforts". So,

with East and West ready to grapple over the future of Ukraine, we sent

journalist and author Douglas Murray to the very judo club William and

Seb used to practice in. This is his take of the week.

Vladimir Putin has a black belt in judo. William Hague has a brown

belt. No prizes for guessing who would win in a fight. But it is not

the Russian president's physical strength that has been on display,

but rather his will and ambition. In Putin, we see a leader apparently

willing to do anything to restore what he sees as Russian influence.

In Western leaders, we see grandstanding but little apparent

desire to follow through. Yet, of course, the truth is that Britain

isn't really in this fight but watching from the sidelines. We may

have punched above our weight in Tony Blair's time, but the current

government has further diminished Armed Forces, eroded our soft power

and given up a moral foreign policy for something attracted more by

commerce. The document photographed being carried into Downing Street

this week said it all. The UK Government would not curtail the

financial arrangements of Vladimir Putin's friends in London because we

want their money. And the government is so incompetent it even let this

fact be known to the public. This country risks becoming an

irrelevance in the world. Liam Hague may have come to this judo club to

train in the past, and nowadays it looks like it is all just talk. And

often, it is not even that. Putin has survey and the world and decided

there is nobody around to counter his steely ambition. He seeks a

wider sphere of Russian influence and, uncontested, it looks like

he'll get it. And from the Budokwai Martial Arts

Club in Kensington to our own little martial arts club here in the heart

of Westminster, Douglas Murray joins us now. Michael, you heard what

Douglas had to say. Any tough sanctions against the Kremlin,

economic ones, will hurt Europe as well, and we just don't have the

stomach for it, do we? Absolutely, but I think we are looking down the

wrong end of the telescope. Why comparison with the days of the

Soviet Union, Russia has lost the Baltic states, the Eastern European

states. It is now in a condition where even its closest satellite,

Ukraine, most of it wants to attach to the European Union. It is having

to invade what it regards as its own territory. It is entirely dependent

on the price of oil, which is volatile. Its population is sinking.

It is determined to hold onto the Ukraine because it faces Muslim

rebellions and terrorism and wants retain some sort of balance within

the Russian Empire. This is actually a country which is breaking up and

going down the pan. Breaking up? It is adding territory all the time. It

took two chunks of Georgia, it has taken the Crimea and the east of the

Ukraine could be next. Your perspective is wrong. Your timetable

is wrong. In the long-running may be falling apart but at the moment it

is not. At the moment it is growing in size. And that is why it is

acting desperately. He is having to invade territory which is

fundamentally a satellite of Russia. Your leader took a tougher line than

Mr Cameron. What did you make of that? You can be tough in

opposition. I want to find out what Douglas wants to happen. Do you want

us to send troops into the Ukraine? No. What do you want? Your party has

done better than the Coalition Government over the case of Russia.

Take the bill which the US passed, which prevents friends and allies of

Vladimir Putin from being able to operate in America as freely as they

do here. As it happens, when Labour was in power, they often raised,

regularly raised human rights abuses, things like the Litvinenko

case. In recent months, another case. The problem is that the

Coalition Government does not raise these things. What do you want the

government to do? To raise issues like this, like the case of friends

and allies of Vladimir Putin who are able to operate in this country and

not in America. About you except we cannot intervene? Right. You were

rather mocking about limitations on visas and travel. I didn't mention

them. You did. You said the girls can't shop in Harrods. There are

300,000 Russians in London. If there were restrictions on visas and

travel that would have some effect, because they rely on being able to

move backwards and forwards in the UK has a stable country. Why would

it have any effect on Mr Putin? Indirectly. As far as traders

concerned, Europe does not want to move because Europe is Russia's

biggest trading partner. I don't dispute that. The Germans are key to

a European Union response and they are not up for it. They depend on

Russian oil and gas. They export more to Russia than anybody else and

they will not risk that. Absolutely. There will be no response of any

consequence against Russia. That is obvious by what people are saying.

When David Cameron talks about consequences, since that is so

nonspecific and repeated on a daily basis, it is clear that it is

meaningless. It is worth remembering that Vladimir Putin has seen David

Cameron's pointlessness before. When Russia invaded Georgia, David

Cameron, then Leader of the Opposition, seized the opportunity

to go to Georgia and grandstand and say how he was on the side of the

Georgian people, but this country did nothing. He knew this country

would do nothing. I think the longer term perspective is important. The

West has had the most amazing victory over the old soviet union

and over Russia. Russia's sphere of influence has been massively

reduced. Thank God it is not the threat it used to be. It is true

that we are not able to control everything Russia does over its

closest satellite. But the situation is transformed. I think, and it is

not you I am getting at, Andrew, but William Hague, John Kerry, President

Obama, David Cameron, who go around making this whole thing looked like

the most momentous defeat, making themselves look impotent and making

Putin look strong. Actually, the reality is that he is presiding over

a collapsing state. We are where we are. He has Crimea and that will not

go back. I think Crimea will vote to join Russia. What do we do if he

moves in on the East Ukraine? There is almost nothing we can do. The

United States has created a vacuum in foreign policy making, since the

man that you both supported so strongly took over the presidency.

It has absented itself from all foreign policy. In defence of David

Cameron, he has tweeted a nice photo of him talking to Barack Obama on

Twitter. The key in this is Germany and Angela Merkel's relationship

with Russia. Now that she has a social democratic Foreign Minister,

whose mentors is Gerhard Tremmel. , who is on the board of a subsidiary

of Gazprom, the Germans call the shots and they have their own

foreign policy on this. If we, it is all very well, but if we take

sanctions against the oligarchs, friends of Putin, you can be sure he

will start to take a chunk of the Volkswagen factory in Russia, which

the Germans own, he will start to take BP oil fields. This man will

retaliate. That is not to say we should not get into a fight, but

let's not do it without realising what he will do.

America paid some financial price, we would pay some financial price -

Germany would pay a very high price. Last March, the last tanks from

America left Europe. They have been in Europe for 69 years. Over

President Obama's president presidency. This is the first time

in people's life times this has been the case. Putin has noticed that.

Putin has seized an opportunity as a result of actions like that. My

aalso just say, there is a hole oweness to some of the western

rhetoric. It's grand standing? More than that. We are meant to be

shocked by the violation of Ukraine sovereignty not shocked by the

sovereignty in Iraq, Libya or Afghanistan by the Est. We are meant

to pretend that Ukraine is a democratic country. The

democratically-elected President was ousted by a mob in Kiev. He is the

man that the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Poland had

decided should stay in office until December and there should be

elections. When Putin says - wait a minute, this is not democratic, this

is not a legitimate government, I'm afraid he has a bit of a point. The

point is made for him by the foreign ministers who had contrived to keep

Yanukovych there until December. Here's the problem. He has taken two

chunks out of Georgia, they are now back with the Russians. He has taken

the Crimea. That's now back with Russia. He could take the east

Ukraine. He may take all of Ukraine at some stage. There is very little

we can do about it. What do we do if he moves in on the Baltic States? I

don't think has ambitions in the Baltic States. What do we do? We not

sending troops there. In other words, for everybody it's a

different sort of line. What we do is what America started to do today,

to start to send planes, extra back up to our NATO allies in Poland and

Baltic States, make them feel more secure than they may be feeling

tonight. That is a good step in the right direction. We need to let them

know and Mr Putin know they will be not be regarded as the same as

Ukraine. He may feel he has influence. We may have to accept, we

may have to regret, we may have to accept he feels he has that. It has

to be clear where we think his influence undoubtedly ends. We will.

Final point. Final point. The reason Putin has had to invade Ukraine is

the same reason that the Soviets had to invade Hungary and checks

Slovakia, it is because they were losing control of these places. This

is a tifrp tomorrows -- symptoms of Russia losing control. We have to

hope so. Now. It's late, and our stocks of Blue Nun are running low,

so we need a little something to keep Diane awake and Michael up.

Luckily for us, waiting in the wings, actor Rupert Everett is here

to discuss our obsession with politics, sex and scandal. And

remember, hard as it is for anyone at the BBC to believe, we're the

number one trending show on British television. So keep up all your

pathetic efforts on the Twitter, the Fleecebook and the good old

missionary position Interweb. Now, before we go on, I want to say

something from the heart. Just because I work for the BBC, and not

Russia Today, doesn't mean I don't have editorial independence. Not all

of us here are happy with the shoddy, immature and partisan way

this programme covers politics and I think it's time I made a stand!.

Hold on. What? You want me to go to the Crimea to be re-educated?! OK,

time for more brilliant political analysis! Now, today a major new

exhibition on the Vikings opened at the British Museum and they turn out

to be not so nasty as we thought. Yeah, right. So we sent

Westminster's God of Politics, Nick Watt, for our Thors-day

roundup.Thors-day, see what I did there.? I'm quitting. I'm off.

History hasn't been kind to us Vikings and us Thor God of Thunder

that makes me really cross. Forget that talk about eating babies and

wearing horned helmets, it turns out we Vikings were really quite

charming after all. One ticket, please.

Oh, look at my old ship. Isn't she just magnificent! It's amazing,

after 1,000 years British leaders are still accusing us for foeshs --

foreigners of taking your jobs. In my day all we cared about was

settling down and farming, after torching the odd monastery, which is

why we are absolutely delighted that Europe's greatest warrior, that is

Nick Clegg, is on our side. UKIP leaders don't turn up to vote in the

European parliament. Most of the time. Nigel Farage hasn't tabled a

single amendment, not a single amendment to the flow of legislation

passing through the European parliament since July 2009. Yes,

Nick, over the hump, his mother is Dutch, is taking the fight to what

he regards as the little Englanders in a typically Scandinavian way. No,

not with axes, but in a civilised TV debate. Well, our Nigel was quick to

hit back. Since 2009 I have taken part in 45% of votes in the European

parliament. Mr Clegg, by contrast, who lives in London, has taken part

in 22% of the votes in the House of Commons. I think it's a bit of a

cheek. Not exactly Alfred the Great, is he? Yule kip is giving all the

main parties the jitters ahead of the European elections. Downing

Street found the table on its grid to publish a report which shows the

impact of non-EU immigration on British jobs is not as severe as

Theresa May once claimed. We have a full-scale coalition row as Vince

Cable celebrates the role of immigrants and the ConservativeHome

office, James Broken Shire blames a wealthy metropolitan elite for

sustaining immigration. Vince Cable made a number of statements about

immigration in the last week, and, to be frank, a lot of them were

simply incorrect. # Baby, do you understand me now...

# In my day, battle plans were not

sbth exactly sophisticated, but at least we kept them secret. Nowadays,

you lot, you just wave them around in public. That supposedly secret

document showed that Britain is very keen to act jolly tough with the

Russians whilst ensuring that the City of London is protected. Ed

Miliband picked up on the apparent discrepent Sid in what turned out to

be a sober session of Prime Minister's Questions. Perhaps it was

the presence of David Cameron's wife, Sam Cam in the back of the

chamber that cooled tempers. It's the combination of diplomacy,

resolve in the international community and support for the

Ukranian government and Ukranian self-determination that is the best

hope for securing an end to this crisis in the pursuit of that goal I

can assure the Prime Minister the Government will have our full

support. I'm grateful for what he said this this mo. Just as we need

to see tomorrow a voice of unity and clarity from the countries of the

European Union, not always easy to get when there are 28 different

nations around the table, it's also very welcome that there is such a

clear and unified voice going out from this House.

Britain's sensitivities over the city told a wider story about the

EU's response. Lots of fierce words bye tiptoeing delicately to keep

lines open to Russia. How civilised. I like it. We need to send a very

clear message to the Russian government that what has happened is

unacceptable and should have consequences and were further action

to be taken that would be even more unacceptable and would require even

more consequences. Back home, there was talk of brotherly disharmony,

Britain's largest trade union, Unite, flexed its muscles by cutting

its funding to the Labour Party by ?1.5 million. It was all meant to be

in the spirit of Ed Miliband's reforms to Labour's links with the

trade unions. Boris Johnson went out of his way to

talk of his brotherly love for Dave and George after speculation that

they are going to try and "checkmate" him by enticing him back

to Westminster. It was all so much easier in my day. We just had blood

feuds. What is happening between you and George Osborne? George and I

have a very, very good working relationship and indeed old, old

friendship. What we both want to do is get David Cameron re-elected.

Boris Johnson, clearly the man is half Viking. It makes you want to

relive the old days. Brandish my sword and have a lovely cup of tea.

A very British sort of Viking there, Nick. Miranda welcome back, could to

see you. Thank you. Should we be excited about a Clegg-Farage live TV

debate will people be interested in Are you suggesting that a nation

waits in fevered anticipation. I wasn't. I wish I had I will watch.

If you are not watching, nobody will watch? Quite. I tell you what, I've

not always thought that the tactics and strategy of the Lib Dems have

been great in the last few months. It's a good move. It's a big gamble,

a gamble worth taking. If you are the pro-European party, you are very

low in the polls, you need to actually reassure your own

supporters, and possibly try and get some people who do believe in

Britain in the European Union being a good thing on your side, in a

election where you might do very badly, you might as well come out

fighting. I think deciding to challenge the people who would like

to see Britain leave, to make their case, you know, in a sort of

head-to-head is a really good idea actually. # OK. I'm quite looking

forward to it. I can let you into a secret. I'm looking forward to it.

Don't tell anybody. Who will it help or harm? I think it might do Nick

Clegg some good. I mean, you know going back to what I was saying

earlier. What you will have here is a real discussion between two people

who disagree with each other and have alternative policies. If you

had, for example, a Conservative against Nigel Farage, the

Conservative would be saying - we dislike immigration as well as you,

and we will be just as tough on it. Then they will be saying, we dislike

the European Union almost as much as you, but not so much that we want to

leave. It will be an absurd discussion. Clegg will be saying, we

believe in high levels of immigration. We believe in being

members of the European Union. That is quite interesting. Do Mr Miliband

and Mr Cameron lose out by not being part of this? They don't lose out. I

think both Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage actually might benefit. Nick

benefits from differentiating himself from the Tories, which he is

desperate to do. Nigel Farage is very winning personality in a good

debater. It could work for him. Clegg is a good debater too, as

appeared in the last election. I I agree. Will you be wearing a Nigel

or Nick T-shirt I'm nearer to Nigel on the European Union than Nick. I'm

nearer to Nick on immigration than Nigel. You wear two T-shirts? Well,

I will be a balanced observer. Which is what brings me to this soa every

week. I wondered what it was? It can't be the money! I very much

think it is. What do you make of this argument over immigration? Is

there a real argument here between the coalition parties? I had your

colleague Oli Grender on the Daily Politics this morning, she couldn't

tell me what the difference was on immigration, what is it? She is part

of the government party and a parliamentarian. As I perceived the

Lib Dem situation about immigration it's extremely different from the

Conservatives - What would the policies be different? Vince Cable

said, borrowing that phrase which offended so many people, intensely

relaxed about immigration because it brings great economic benefits to

the country. That is the heartfelt position of most Lib Dems. It Lib

Dem policy not to have controls on immigration? No. They do want

controls they want proper measurement of the immigration

position. In terms of what is good for the country's economy, also

because the leadership of the Lib Dems, particularly Nick Clegg, is

heartfelt in its support for the European Union, how can you support

the European Union and not support the free movement of people? It is a

completely - it would be a contradictory position. I understand

that, don't disagree with it either. I have to point out, measurement is

not a policy. Measurement is mathematics. What is the policy?

Inside the Government there are enormous genuine tensions on this

issue. I know there have been a lot - Not just - No. The policy of both

- There have been play fights in the coalition, not on - This one is not?

It's a serious difference of opinion. The policy of both parties

in the coalition it to be members of the European Union and to continue

to be members of the European Union. Therefore, anything that either one

of them says about immigration is so much hoey. End of subject. When it

comes to Vince Cable, his first wife was from East Africa, when it comes

to immigration and Vince Cable as a person, it's genuinely heartfelt.

Some of it may be gameplaying with Vince it's heartfelt. It was Mr

Clegg I was wondering. That is another thing. I can't speak for

him. You can't? No? This is another thing why I think the Farage calling

the Farage debate is a good move. Nick Clegg is a European. You know,

he's half Dutch. Sure. This is actually something that he genuinely

believes is a dangerous moment for this country. Mr Farage shouldn't be

under estimated as a debater. It should be an interesting clash.

Is there really a clash between Boris Johnson and George Osborne?

Oh, yes. These things all was come back to people who knew each other

well at school and university. I thought Michael Bosman voice had

changed, but it is you! It all goes back to obscure happenings at

university. It all goes back to Eton. I agree with that. Although it

is sufficient in the here and now. George Osborne believes in the David

Cameron government. The David Cameron government is a government

that has taken many tough decisions and has done interesting reforms in

schooling, welfare, the national health service, has sorted out the

economic situation. If David Cameron falters at the next election, the

prospect is that he will be replaced by Boris Johnson who has never taken

a serious decision about anything. You don't like him, do you? Parking

for a moment your visceral hatred of Boris Johnson Watt that is an

exaggeration. Is George Osborne a serious candidate for leadership of

the Conservative Party? He is a serious candidate in the sense that

I think he would be a good leader. I rather doubt he will seriously be a

candidate. But if you said to me, what would you feel about George

leading the Conservative Party one day, I would say it is very

interesting. If Nick Clegg does these debates with Nigel Farage and

the Lib Dems still fail in the European elections, isn't it an even

bigger problem for Nick Clegg West remarked what they know, going into

the general election is that there are segments of the electorate who

believe in Lib Dem type things. One of those things is Europe, so even

if it doesn't work for this election, it might warm the cockles

of hearts... You are a born optimist. As a Lib Dem, you have to

be. It has haunted Mr Cameron ever since he was leader of the

Opposition, but even more when he got into Downing Street, the sense

that he is surrounded. We have seen it with the arrest of one of his

aides in Downing Street. Not just that, the idea that out of the six

people drafting the manifesto, five went to Eton and the other is the

chap who went to Saint Pauls, where the fees are only ?30,000 a year.

And it turns out that the AED two has been arrested is close friends

with Mr Cameron's chief of staff. The man in question, I have known

him since 1976 and he has been associated with the party four-year

is. Everybody is a friend of his. But I agree with your basic point. I

think it is ordered that that is the way the Prime Minister has wanted to

operate, with his friends. You would feel that tactical considerations

would want him to bring together a broader group of people. It is not

just friends, but the notion of a gang of old Etonian is. The public

can sense that and they do not like it. And they are all men. You are

going to have blind spots. More than half the electorate are female. We

have to move on. Thank you, Miranda. Now, you'll be interested in this,

Diane. This week saw a scandalous first in British politics, when

Michael Gove became the first ever Conservative Education Secretary to

educate his child in the state system he runs. Apparently, Diane,

according to Mrs Gove, the private sector is "let's face it, about

snobbery. Of course the parents of private school children are paying

for the best teachers and facilities. But let's be honest,

they're also paying for their child to mix with the right kind of kids.

Having a two-tiered education system inevitably helps polarise our

society. That is why, as a parent, I want to support the state sector".

Food for thought, don't you think, Diane. Anyway let's put scandal in

this week's Spotlight. Political scandals are almost as old

as politics itself and this week Downing Street faced another. A

senior aide to the Prime Minister has been arrested but not charged on

suspicion of accessing child abuse images. When I heard these

allegations I was profoundly shocked, and I remain profoundly

shocked today. Scandal is also out on the streets. Prostitution laws

could be changed to shift criminal blame away from the women and on to

shift criminal blame away from the women and onto the punters, but will

the oldest scandalous? And accused of premeditated murder, the trial of

former Paralympic champion Oscar Pistorius continued. The world

watches the testimony on their TV screens. What about Newcastle United

manager, Alan Pardew? He lost his head and was given an -- a hefty

fine. A moment of passion or a scandalous example West Jamaat why

are we so obsessed with scandal? It sells magazines and papers but is it

because we enjoy seeing powerful people sweat? Rupert Everett joins

us. Welcome. Let me ask you that question, will there come a time

when prostitution is not regarded as a scandal? Is it happening? No, I

think it is going in the other direction. Last week there was an

all-party group that has advised that the client of the prostitute is

criminalised. Criminalisation is still the name of the game. Maybe

they have slightly moved the goalposts but criminalisation is

still happening. I understand there is due to be more of a crackdown in

Soho. I have been making a documentary for Channel 4 about

prostitution. One of the sections we started to film was about the girls

who work in the walk up flats in Soho. One night in December there

was a three -strong police raid on 20 flats, using a law, which is a

good law about incitement, control and coercion, laws to make sure that

people are not coerced into sex. They took girls down in their

underwear into the streets, with journalists and photographers. Some

of these are mothers with children, working in secret. And none of them

were coerced into prostitution. I followed them to court, to various

courts. I went to Hammersmith. They gave evidence, these poor girls.

They said, we are not being controlled. They were not part of

people trafficking? Trafficking is complicated. In fact, trafficking is

trafficking and prostitution is prostitution. Trafficking is slavery

and we have laws for that. Post a Jewish and is another issue. There

is a bridge with up to 9% of working prostitutes. -- prostitution is

another issue. Would you like to see the whole business, both for the

women, and the clients, decriminalised? If decriminalisation

happened to prostitute, they could work in groups, which is much safer

for them. They would be able to leave prostitution because they

would not have criminal records. A caution amounts to a criminal

record, so it is hard to leave prostitution if it is not

decriminalised. At the moment, anything more than one girl working

alone is a brothel, so would be closed down. It would be safer for

them to work in groups. Oscar Wilde said that the native habitat of the

hypocrite is England. The situation around this story is so

hypocritical. We need to distinguish between street prostitutes and a

different kind of prostitute operating out of a flat. The

majority of street prostitutes, many of them have come out of care, they

are beaten and kept on drugs by pimps. They are often trafficked

girls. You cannot be sentimental about the position of street

rostered shoots in places like the East End of London. I don't think

you can be sentimental about the trade in general. But there are

different sectors of the trade. He separated coercion from

non-coercion. If they are being coerced... Personally, I think you

should criminalise men who use prostitutes. I think you are insane.

What planet are you on? I am in Hackney and I am thinking of the

girls. One of the things the police used to do, you would get the curb

crawlers who come and curb crawl to pick up street prostitutes. The

police used to say, we picked you up in Stamford Hill. The men would open

the letter in front of their wife and would be supremely embarrassed.

Yes, you should criminalise men who use prostitutes. First of all, I

agree that the street and the flat are different places. The street is

the hardest place to work. Not just tough, but horrible, brutalising.

But people who are working safely in flats are being pushed onto the

street. Criminalising the punter is not only not helping the girls on

the street, in fact it is not helping anybody, and certainly not

those who are a little more secure and work in flats. They are being

evicted, driven onto the streets. I was talking to some ladies from the

co-operative of prostitutes. A couple of girls who used to be in

flats have disappeared on the street now. I am with Rupert. I am

sufficient of a free marketeer to believe that if there is a willing

seller and buyer, it is not the job of the law to intervene. Willing. It

is consensual sex. In the case that Rupert has cited, the testimony of

the women was perfectly clear. We will admit there are coerced women,

so you have to admit that there are those who are not coerced as well.

It is extraordinary to say that it should be legal to sell a product

but illegal to buy the same product. Where is the logic? The greater part

of street prostitution is coerced girls, many of them underage. I

would like to have your figures for that. Will the law change in a way

you would like? No, I think it will change as in Sweden and in Spain

come and about two in France, in the direction of criminalising the

client. Quite right. In Sweden the police say it is a tremendous

success, but the prostitutes say something different.

That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us, because we're off to

Accident Emergency to abuse their resources along with the rest of the

population. Diane's ego is slightly bruised, and Michael always needs

his stomach pumped. But we leave you tonight with our toe-curling Prime

Minister, who tweeted an excruciating selfie last night,

claiming to be on the phone to President Obama sorting out Ukraine.

Nighty night. Please don't let David Brent bite.

# She's broken down on freeway nine # I take a look and get her engine

started # Free love on the free love Freeway

# Lover is free and the freeway is long

# I've got some hot lava on the hot love highway. #