13/03/2014 This Week


13/03/2014

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As spring sunshine finally makes an appearance, we try to look Tributes

:00:17.:00:19.

have been pouring in after the sad and untimely death of union leader

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Bob Crow, so what will his legacy be? Journalist and left wing

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activist Owen Jones thinks the future for the trade union movement

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is bright. Bob Crowe got a lot of stick for taking holidays in the

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sun, but he wanted to make sure it wasn't just sunshine for the rich.

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Ed Miliband hopes the sun is shining on his chances of re-election after

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he rules out holding an automatic EU referendum. But will the voters warm

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to his policy on Europe? The Spectator's Isabel Hardman basks in

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the Westminster sunshine. When the sun is out, there is nothing quite

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like messing about on the river. But back in Westminster, is Ed

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Miliband's Europe Holocene or let's see?

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And here comes the Sol, as we shine a light on some inconvenient truths.

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Former footballer Sol Campbell refuses to live under a cloud.

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Believe it or not, this is not a real field. I am not supposed to

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tell you that. Bring me sunshine, bring me

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laughter, bring me This Week. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, a

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week when Nick Clegg, in a fit of patriotic twaddle, listed

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flip-flops, originating in ancient Egypy circa 4000 BC, among those

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things that made him proud to be British. Flip-flops! Who would have

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thunk it, for a Lib Dem? What happened to sandals? But after the

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party's flip-flops on tuition fees, deficit cutting and VAT increases,

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not to mention a referendum on Europe, flip-flops are the Lib Dem

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footwear of choice these days. No doubt compulsory beard shaving and

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bacon and eggs for breakfast instead of muesli can't be far behind. It

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was also the week when our self-styled ethical bank, the Co-op,

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revealed that despite record ?2 billion losses and 5,000 job cuts,

:02:15.:02:18.

it had agreed to pay its new boss ?3.6 million, which rather took him

:02:19.:02:22.

out of ethics and propelled him into greedy, money-grabbing, fat cat

:02:23.:02:29.

country. The embarrassed bank then took a leaf out of Cleggover's

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proud-to-be-British playbook, and flip-flopped by accepting his

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resignation. The new boss will be paid in Co-op stamps, won't enjoy a

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divi but will be entitled to a free pair of flip-flops every second

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year, courtesy of the Lib Dems, who pointedly didn't name the Co-op as

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one of their favourite things. Bet they would've done before it gave

:02:49.:02:52.

ethics a bad name. And, no, the Reverend Flowers can't apply for his

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old job back. Speaking of those who couldn't tell their flips from their

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flops, even though they've had more than their fair share of the latter,

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I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men who have both been invited

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to spend the weekend with Vince Cable and his wife, and couldn't

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think of anything worse. Think of the them as the George Osborne and

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Mrs George Osborne of late night political chat. I speak, of course,

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of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson and #sadmanonatrain Michael

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"Chatanooga" Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? Well, our Prime

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Minister has been in Israel where he made a good speech which was quite

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well received. But he felt obliged to urge the Israelis to make a peace

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settlement with their Arab neighbours, the Palestinians, and

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this is obviously completely out of the question. Mr Netanyahu is not

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interested in the two state solution, not even interested in

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stopping building settlements on Arab territory, disputed territory.

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Mahmoud Abbas does not represent the sort of leader you could do a deal

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with anyway. I think for the Prime Minister to go there and urge a

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peace process is at best platitudinous and at worst a sign of

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a country that still thinks of itself as being a great power. We

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have to get used to the idea that we are not a great power and weak do

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not have to go around the world is telling everyone what they should be

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doing. The public sector review bodies made their recommendation

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today, 1%. I think there has been an extraordinary acceptance among

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public sector workers over the last few dear Asch macro years that in

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the age of austerity things have to be reined in. But Jeremy Hunt has

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said he will not implement it for a whole group of workers on

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increments. I think this is a huge mistake. Increments are what

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management want because instead of getting straight onto maximum pay,

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you get there gradually over time. To say these people cannot have

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their 1% increase because they will get an incremental increase is to

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send the message that these increments, that actually work more

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for management and the tax payer than for the workers, are something

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trade unions will be wanting to get rid of. I think it is a big mistake.

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And for the cost of it, given so many managers have been re-recruited

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having been given big pay-outs to leave the NHS, it will cause a huge

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stink for a little amount of money. I have some quick moments that add

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up to something important. The Kremlin has closed all non-Vladimir

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Putin media, or taken it over. There is only one message coming out now,

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and that is that the Ukraine has been taken over by fascist

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revolutionaries and Russian speakers are now in jeopardy. And the Russian

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army has begun new manoeuvres on the Russian border. When you add up all

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of that, this crisis is not over yet.

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Many kind words were said this week about union leader Bob Crow, who

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suddenly passed away at the age of only 52. They weren't words he often

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heard when he was alive, especially when his militancy led to London

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commuters or the country's rail travellers being inconvenienced by

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industrial disruption. But there was general agreement that he was good

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for his members, securing them pay and conditions others could only

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dream of. So when public sector workers continue to face a real

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terms cut in their wages, should hard-working people who want to get

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on, get on and join a union? We turned to journalist and left wing

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activist Owen Jones. This is his take of the week.

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The news about trade union leader Bob Crow this week shows that it

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takes a death for the establishment to say anything kind about the

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unions. Such is his legacy that people have been coming into this

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shop and asking for a Bob Crow cap. But Bob Crow's legacy went further

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than pushing up the sales of these. He was a man who took on the

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politics of envy. The media used to tell low paid workers, you are

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getting paid poverty workers but look how much the RMT workers are

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getting and they have the cheek to go on strike. His message was

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simple. You should be dragged up to our level, he told them, not asked

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down to yours. A race to the top, not a race to the bottom. The unions

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are Britain's biggest democratic movement, representing over 6

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million workers from supermarket checkout workers to rubbish bin

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collectors, call centre workers to teachers, pillars of any decent

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society. Unions founded the Labour Party to

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give workers a political voice, but now even the party leaders seem

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often embarrassed about being linked to them. The Tories meanwhile are

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bankrolled by hedge fund managers, bankers, legal loan sharks. But the

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media barely even blinks. We need trade unions more than ever. We are

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living through the longest fall in workers' wages since Queen Victoria

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sat on the throne. We live in a country where most people in poverty

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are in work, and we have an army of zero hours contract workers. Here is

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how we can remember Bob Crow. First, join a union. Secondly, the unions

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can learn from his determination and courage. Bob Crow was demonised in

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large part because he won. But he showed that other workers, with a

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bit of backbone, can win as well. I will doff my cap to that.

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And from Laird London Hatter's Emporium in Covent Garden to our own

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little mad hatter's emporium here in the heart of Westminster, Owen Jones

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comes cap in hand. Well come back. Ouch! Michael, do the unions, as we

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have known them, have much of a role in the 21st-century? No, they do

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not. I thought that peace was amusingly contrary. He talked about

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representing 6 million people, but they used to represent 11 million

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people. 13 million, thank you. There has been a massive decline because

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people have been disillusioned by trade unions. They have done

:09:44.:09:47.

enormous amounts of damage. It is interesting that you talk about the

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way in which the living conditions of RMT members have been improved.

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This was true of the miners in the 1970s. The miners were the

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aristocracy, getting vast amounts of money. What was the result of that?

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A policy by the employers and the government to close the coalmines,

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so there are none left. The same is happening in the London Underground.

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Because they are paid so much there is a policy of closing ticket

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offices, and going to unmanned trains. These victories that are

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claimed, where workers get lots of money, they are temporary victories.

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The real problem with trade unions is that they are interested in their

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members, not wider society. So the interests of the members, as Bob

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Crow saw it, could lead to a strike to close down the underground

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system, could do great damage to the economy, could inconvenience

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thousands of commuters, could do damage to unemployed people, because

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trade unions are only interested in people who are employed, because

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they pay subs. Firstly, ticket office collectors are not

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represented by the RMT. But the point is that if we look at workers

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across the country at the moment, we live in a country where most people

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in poverty are in work. They get up in the morning, they struggle, and

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they earn their poverty. We have millions of workers choosing between

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heating their homes and feeding their kids. We have a situation with

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zero hours contracts which is like a return to the Victorian era, where

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dockers would march to the yard and stick up their hand hoping to get

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work. These days, workers get a text message at 6am telling them if they

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have any hours on that day. What Bob Crow's model was, it was quite

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specific to the London Underground, you are right. It is harder often to

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unionise other workplaces. The reason we have had this decline in

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trade unions is not disillusionment. The polls show that those out of

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unions often have a favourable view of trade unions. It is the do with

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the disappearance of traditional industries, with communities based

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around steelworks, factories, mines, a shift to a different form of

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economy. For example, today, as many people work in call centres as used

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to work in the mines. Retail is the second biggest employer in the

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country. Because there is such a big turnover in workers, it is often

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hard to unionise. What trade unions need to do, and I am not someone to

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defend the status quo, despite the odds against trades unions, is to

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adapt to the conditions, find new ways of organising, not just in the

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workplace but also in the wider community. Might I ask a question?

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Do you not see any connection between the fact that the industries

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that were heavily unionised, where there were many members, have been

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closed down, and the fact that they were unionised? Do you not see the

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connection, for example in the mining industry? I think that is a

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revisionist view of what happened in the mines, to be frank. We saw a

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range of industries which disappeared in the 80s. If we want

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to go over what your government did, we can look at the way the pound was

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increased, to make imports competitive. Should the unions

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become more militant? Not necessarily. I am surprised that

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Michael's analysis. The couple of weeks ago he was telling us one of

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the reasons why he did not get support to get the last track of the

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Conservative leadership was because he did not believe there needed to

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be more union legislation. I was hoping there would be a right of

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centre view about the importance of trade Unions, as there is

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practically everywhere in Europe. They are an essential part of a

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mature democracy. The militancy bit, think about Bob Crow, whose

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membership did increase. The railways are growing, and more

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people are using railways, and it was unionised. The thing about Bob

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Crow, he was a negotiator. He did not believe that the purpose of

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trade unions was to be used as cannon fodder in a class war. He

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believed in getting a good deal for his members. Militancy is often

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described as having a strike ballot. Michael's government introduced laws

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that actually trade union negotiators have used rather well.

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You need a ballot now before a strike. I do not disagree with that.

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But the fact that you do that shows that the membership actually feel

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strongly about this issue, and gives the negotiator, Bob Crow and many

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others around the country, a great deal of power. Most of them don't

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vote. Can I respond to that? Let's change the law. You don't deny that

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most of them don't vote. I am going to come up with a solution, which is

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workplace -based balloting. You will not get large numbers of people

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voting when you rely on people having to send back a letter to

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vote. It is quite a simple change to the law and I don't know why the

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government don't do it. Surely militancy only works when, like Bob

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Crow, you control a public sector monopoly and can hold the people to

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ransom. Most unions don't have that power. Honestly, the way you speak

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about unions! I don't accept the words you are using, militancy,

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holding people to ransom. Obviously it is easier in certain sectors to

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win games and concessions. Nonetheless, if I think of other

:15:21.:15:29.

examples, electricity went on strike last year against powerful BT, they

:15:30.:15:31.

didn't have a monopoly. But they won. You have picked the one public

:15:32.:15:39.

private sector strike where they won. They really won at Grangemouth,

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didn't they? The electricians are not militants, for a start. The RMT

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was. It does not work forever either. The point Michael made is

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that miners tried to hold his Government to ran some. They were

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equal in who they held to ran some. Look at that - they don't exist any

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more. You are blaming the miners for a concerted attempt to take on a

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mining industry... I think you will find it was an attempt by Scargill

:16:30.:16:35.

to take on Thatcher's Government. They took on the Labour Government

:16:36.:16:41.

too Do you want me to answer? Carry on! What happened in that particular

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case, in the miner's dispute, is in 1974 they helped to take done

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Heath's Government. It was admitted that closure

:16:53.:16:58.

programme went too far. He hated Heath more than the miners.

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Bob Crow was famous for his militancy. That is why he did so

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well for the workers. Do He was no or more less militant... There were

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a lot more strikes in his region. You were right on the first one -

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there were a lot of ballots. How many led to a strike? That

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strengthened his hand in negotiation. Did you agree with

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Owen, that many of the Labour leaders today seem embarrassed to be

:17:34.:17:38.

linked to the unions? I am not embarrassed by the trade unions. He

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did not have you in mind! You said yourself, to quote you,

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sometimes they are treated like an embarrassing relative... That was of

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Monks. That can sometimes be the case. I accept that. The link is not

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the unions writing out a shopping list, giving it to a Labour

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Government, saying carry that out I doesn't work like that. What strike

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can you imagine the Labour leadership supporting? No many. What

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strikes would I suppose? Quite a few. One point you have to address.

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It came out and that is that real wages have now been in decline in

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this country for over ten years. Wages now account for a smaller

:18:26.:18:31.

percentage of GDP than almost at any time since records began. Profits

:18:32.:18:36.

account for a bigger percentage at any time. With the not - it could be

:18:37.:18:40.

done in Owen's way or another way. Is there not a need for a

:18:41.:18:44.

rebalancing to see pay beginning to rise again for average and

:18:45.:18:51.

below-average workers? I am very unhappy about growing inequality in

:18:52.:18:56.

society. I fear if what happens is some trade unions manage to get more

:18:57.:19:00.

for their members, what that will mean is fewer will be ememployed. --

:19:01.:19:06.

employed. Their interest is in the membership. They are not concerned

:19:07.:19:11.

about unemployed people. That is not true. . Throughout the north. This

:19:12.:19:18.

happened under new Labour and this Government. People were forced into

:19:19.:19:23.

in-work benefits. They were forced to take on, depend on cheap credit.

:19:24.:19:31.

It sucked demand out of the economy. Let's have strong trade unions to

:19:32.:19:36.

secure good pay rises for all workers. Like Norway, like Finland -

:19:37.:19:41.

more equal. Be in the EU and have labour, you

:19:42.:19:49.

are bound to have wages in this country... It has not happened in

:19:50.:19:53.

other countries. It does coincide with the period we've been in a

:19:54.:20:00.

Labour Party. I like interruptions. It's late. It

:20:01.:20:09.

is Nigel Farage-late! I know what I mean. If you believe the rumours,

:20:10.:20:13.

vigorously denied by all parties involved - the BBC lawyers have told

:20:14.:20:19.

me to underline! Stick with us all the same, waiting is footballer Sol

:20:20.:20:25.

Campbell, here to talk. He will talk about the inconvenient truths we

:20:26.:20:28.

would rather not face up to. Speaking of which, though we love to

:20:29.:20:34.

admit it, most of the viewers can not string a sentence together.

:20:35.:20:40.

And of course, if you don't have access to the internet, just pick up

:20:41.:20:44.

a pen and write tows. We promise to keep everything 100% confidential.

:20:45.:20:51.

Even if your handwriting is not readable. We do love a letter. We

:20:52.:21:01.

read something this week that alarmed us - a Great White shark is

:21:02.:21:06.

heading right to the UK. So we sent Isabel Hardman down to the Thames to

:21:07.:21:10.

keep a look-out. Here is a round-up of the week.

:21:11.:21:29.

Britain is on shark-alert. A Great White, called Lydia, is crossing the

:21:30.:21:37.

Atlantic. Some think she could head for these shores. At least in this

:21:38.:21:43.

place, she'll be in good company. I am going to need a bigger boat!

:21:44.:21:51.

Look, there's a man-eater! The Great White! It's there!

:21:52.:21:57.

Oh, don't listen to him! Some people think that dear old Liz is on her

:21:58.:22:02.

way to the Mediterranean. Soil spoits! It would not be surprising.

:22:03.:22:07.

European waters are dangerous if you are a British politician. Yesterday,

:22:08.:22:12.

Ed Miliband cautiously dipped his toes in the water, but decided no t

:22:13.:22:18.

to take the plunge. The next Labour Government will legislate for a new

:22:19.:22:25.

lock. Not simply a new referendum on any treaty change, transferring

:22:26.:22:29.

transfer of powers, because there have been too many referenda like

:22:30.:22:32.

that in other countries which have been ignored.

:22:33.:22:37.

Ed's supporters are claiming this is a brilliant bit of fly fishing,

:22:38.:22:40.

neither in or out of the water. This is what the Tories call a fudge. The

:22:41.:22:45.

PM, who was out of the country this week, on a visit to Israel, is by

:22:46.:22:51.

all accounts happy to put some clear blue water tweern the two parties

:22:52.:22:57.

and keep the snappers at bay. There'll not be a referendum. The

:22:58.:23:03.

only way to get an in/out referendum and reform in Europe - the only way

:23:04.:23:07.

to get that is to have the Conservatives in Government. Still,

:23:08.:23:12.

Dave shouldn't be too pleased, because Ed Miliband clearly figures

:23:13.:23:16.

that the promise of a referendum will not play very big at the next

:23:17.:23:20.

general election and he can win without one. But one man who was all

:23:21.:23:25.

smiles this week was the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg. When

:23:26.:23:28.

Dave is away, he gets the swimming pool to himself. He was so happy, he

:23:29.:23:33.

couldn't help just telling us about everything that he loves. I love

:23:34.:23:36.

Britain. I love it for all its

:23:37.:23:40.

contradictions. I love the telephone - the steam engine - the jet engine

:23:41.:23:50.

- the World Wide Web, theatre. I shipping forecast. T-shirt and

:23:51.:23:56.

flip-flops, even when it is cold. Football fans obsessed with the

:23:57.:24:02.

Premier League. A cup of tea. Nick Clegg says he's going to go on and

:24:03.:24:11.

on and on. The predators are circling the Westminster goldfish

:24:12.:24:16.

bowl, seeing what will happen after 2015. Danny Alexander and Cable are

:24:17.:24:24.

not ready to bite. She does not want him to get mauled

:24:25.:24:28.

like Nick. Who incidentally, she says she is quite a fan of.

:24:29.:24:34.

But even that didn't get Clegg down because next, he got to play the

:24:35.:24:40.

boss at PMQs. He and Harman traded insults about

:24:41.:24:47.

hospital closures, until both sides realised an old fashioned feeding

:24:48.:24:51.

frenzy would be more fun. On this side of the House we are trying to

:24:52.:24:56.

sort out the mess they created F they will not take any

:24:57.:24:59.

responsibility or express any apology, why should we take any of

:25:00.:25:04.

the questions seriously at all? With his broken promises and prosuring,

:25:05.:25:09.

doesn't he realise that he might love Britain, but Britain does not

:25:10.:25:14.

love him back. The bottom of the ocean for that gag, Harriet Harman!

:25:15.:25:24.

# Sail away # Sail away

:25:25.:25:27.

# Sail At the end of the day, it is tough

:25:28.:25:35.

making a living from the bottom of the ocean. Ask Alex Salmond. This

:25:36.:25:41.

week there was a rise in Scotland's spending deficit, not helped by

:25:42.:25:45.

falling North Sea revenues. This week saw the return of a big fish,

:25:46.:25:50.

who swam silently into the referendum debate. We have the "yes"

:25:51.:25:55.

camp, the "no" camp and the Gordon Brown campaign.

:25:56.:26:00.

Yes - he still cannot share the shallows with anyone else.

:26:01.:26:04.

If there is a partnership between the nations of the United Kingdom in

:26:05.:26:08.

the future, then we have to find a way of working together again.

:26:09.:26:12.

We cannot have this permanent standoff between a Scottish

:26:13.:26:17.

Government and the rest of the UK. A permanent standoff! What was he

:26:18.:26:23.

thinking? Number 11. Still waters run deep, you know! There she is,

:26:24.:26:26.

the Great White. The shark! Where? I've got a big one here! Oh! It is a

:26:27.:26:51.

bit of a tidleer, actually. -- tidler, perhaps we didn't need a

:26:52.:26:59.

bigger boat, after all! Miranda joins us. Who writeds this drive

:27:00.:27:09.

have for him? There -- who drives this for him? There is an urge by

:27:10.:27:14.

many on the left of politics to say why should the right own patriotism?

:27:15.:27:20.

You end up with these slightly contrived, lyrical... Slightly! Love

:27:21.:27:28.

letters to the nation. One of the reason is you make a fool of

:27:29.:27:33.

yourself when youtry it. It happens -- when you try it. It happened at a

:27:34.:27:40.

Spring Conference in York. Why doesn't somebody take him aside and

:27:41.:27:45.

say, don't say this - you'll look stupid? The thing is, when you work

:27:46.:27:50.

for a political leader, my feeling is you probably do need somebody in

:27:51.:27:55.

the room - which used to be my role when I worked for Paddy Ashdown -

:27:56.:28:01.

with their head in their hands, predicting disaster at every turn.

:28:02.:28:07.

Would you have taken it from his hand and ripped it out? I would have

:28:08.:28:14.

taken out flip-flops and any reference to footwear!

:28:15.:28:20.

On his performance on PMQs, there seems to be a real sense of

:28:21.:28:25.

animosity between Mr Clegg and the Labour backbenchers - is that right?

:28:26.:28:30.

I think it is. All the way along, during this coalition between the

:28:31.:28:34.

Tories and the Lib Demes, there's been a slightly weird, romantic

:28:35.:28:39.

background narrative that the Lib Demes would find it easier being in

:28:40.:28:43.

Government with the Labour Party. The bad blood between Labour and the

:28:44.:28:48.

Lib Demes is quite serious, I think, from time to time. There's no love

:28:49.:28:53.

lost. Certainly they seem to be enjoying having a go at each other.

:28:54.:29:02.

It is what happens locally. It is the focus leaflets going through the

:29:03.:29:08.

door that are just outrageous. It is far more outrageous than

:29:09.:29:12.

anything the Labour Party would produce. So, you have these battles

:29:13.:29:19.

for local of elections and then you come into Parliament. If you take

:29:20.:29:25.

free school meals. Hull, in my constituency, introduced free school

:29:26.:29:29.

meals ten years ago. First place to do it anywhere in the country. The

:29:30.:29:33.

administration changed to Lib Demes - they got rid of it. Now they are

:29:34.:29:36.

saying the best thing in the world is free school meals. Are you

:29:37.:29:46.

expecting consistency? Exactly! If there is animosity, there is an

:29:47.:29:49.

issue in which you could not get a slip of paper between you and that

:29:50.:29:54.

is Labour has the same policy on the European referendum as the Lib

:29:55.:29:56.

Demes. It is very similar. I am very

:29:57.:30:09.

pleased about that. When Cameron made that speech 13 months ago, I

:30:10.:30:14.

thought that was a misjudgement from a Prime Minister who had been pushed

:30:15.:30:18.

by backbenchers. Only a while before he voted against a proposition

:30:19.:30:23.

saying we needed an in-out referendum now. What Ed Miliband has

:30:24.:30:28.

done, quite elegantly, is to make absolutely clear that actually it is

:30:29.:30:35.

unlikely to the extent of being totally improbable that there will

:30:36.:30:38.

be an in-out referendum. But that does not mean we are against

:30:39.:30:43.

referendums. We had one for Scottish Parliament, Welsh devolution, London

:30:44.:30:47.

mayor, a referendum on the European Community, the common market, in

:30:48.:30:53.

1975. So it made sense to say, unless there is a change, and in

:30:54.:30:57.

that case it won't be about the actual detail of the change, it will

:30:58.:31:01.

be an in-out referendum. In effect, that is what it would be. Is it an

:31:02.:31:07.

elegant change in labour policy? Yes. I can't imagine why it took 13

:31:08.:31:14.

months. I can't imagine why anybody in the Labour Party would argue for

:31:15.:31:17.

Labour Party to promise an in-out referendum in 2017. Ed Miliband does

:31:18.:31:23.

not believe in leaving the European Union. Why would he risked his

:31:24.:31:27.

premiership to have a referendum he does not believe in? The only reason

:31:28.:31:32.

the question of 2017 has come up is because, as Allen has said, 13

:31:33.:31:35.

months ago, the Prime Minister thought it was a way to buy off the

:31:36.:31:41.

backbenchers. So this is a solution to a Conservative Party problem with

:31:42.:31:45.

backbenchers, and with UKIP. But those are not problems that Labour

:31:46.:31:49.

has. I can't imagine why people like Ed Balls ever thought it was a good

:31:50.:31:55.

idea. I can't understand why does a treaty change have two trigger an

:31:56.:31:59.

in-out referendum? Why doesn't a treaty change, which is shorthand

:32:00.:32:04.

for saying that some more powers would be moved from the UK to

:32:05.:32:08.

Brussels, why don't you just have a referendum on the treaty change?

:32:09.:32:12.

Because there is this feeling that several decades have passed since

:32:13.:32:18.

the nation got the chance to approve the relationship. If you can improve

:32:19.:32:21.

the relationship in Britain's favour, you should settle the matter

:32:22.:32:27.

once and for all. To have a referendum on the detail... I take

:32:28.:32:31.

your point but if you went to the British public and said we have a

:32:32.:32:34.

referendum and we want to focus on these clauses in the Treaty of Rome

:32:35.:32:38.

that have changed, in effect it would be about in or out of the

:32:39.:32:42.

European Union. You might as well admit that, yes. I don't see that.

:32:43.:32:49.

Many other countries have had referendums on treaties and the

:32:50.:32:51.

result has been that if they voted the wrong way from the European

:32:52.:32:55.

Union's point of view, they were made to vote again until they got it

:32:56.:33:01.

right. Supposing you do not like the treaty change? Supposing you do not

:33:02.:33:04.

like the powers that a future government has agreed will be moved

:33:05.:33:08.

to Brussels but you don't want to leave the European Union? How do you

:33:09.:33:14.

vote? That is an interesting point. That is why business has welcomed

:33:15.:33:18.

the Labour change of position on the referendum. How do you vote? What

:33:19.:33:24.

choice are you giving me then? Do you have three questions on the

:33:25.:33:29.

paper? You are into the Scottish debate about the questions. You are

:33:30.:33:34.

right, the position is illogical. I worry that whatever referendum we

:33:35.:33:39.

have we will have a yes vote. David Cameron believes he can persuade the

:33:40.:33:42.

British people to vote yes and I think he is right. I think the

:33:43.:33:47.

British are too scared to leave. But they yes vote would then be regarded

:33:48.:33:51.

as an affirmation by the British people of their European destiny.

:33:52.:33:55.

That is a disaster. We are in a perfect position at the moment, in

:33:56.:33:58.

the European but semidetached members, not in the euro zone where

:33:59.:34:03.

the disasters are happening. We do not need to change this. But if we

:34:04.:34:08.

have an affirmation that our future is a European destiny, then the

:34:09.:34:11.

whole thing about joining the euro will come back. I thought of the

:34:12.:34:17.

answer. There would not be a treaty change about unanimity. There cannot

:34:18.:34:22.

be. The British government would have to agree, which is why Ed

:34:23.:34:25.

Miliband will not have a referendum, because they cannot agree to a

:34:26.:34:28.

treaty change that will allow more powerful Brussels. Psion ACPO the

:34:29.:34:33.

government would be recommending yes. I thought your point was what

:34:34.:34:38.

happens if there is a treaty change that we do not disagree with. How do

:34:39.:34:44.

you vote if you don't like the treaty change but you don't want to

:34:45.:34:49.

leave? Doesn't this work to the advantage of the Tories, because

:34:50.:34:53.

whenever you say to Nigel Farage, if you vote UKIP and don't get the

:34:54.:34:57.

Tories, you won't get a referendum. He has always said that Ed Miliband

:34:58.:35:01.

will come out for a referendum, too. That has shot his Fox now. The

:35:02.:35:06.

Tories can now say, if you want an in-out referendum, there is only one

:35:07.:35:13.

party. They could do that. One of their most important supporters,

:35:14.:35:15.

Lord Ashcroft, was warning them today not to fall into the trap that

:35:16.:35:20.

Labour has set. What you don't want to do is what David Cameron famously

:35:21.:35:25.

called banging on about Europe. Nobody in the Tory party ever

:35:26.:35:31.

listens to Lord Ashcroft. Well, possibly they should. That may well

:35:32.:35:37.

be true. If the other parties have it settled in a way that... In the

:35:38.:35:45.

end, are there many votes to be had by saying, as the Tories will, we

:35:46.:35:51.

will give you an in-out referendum? I think not enough. Firstly, it is

:35:52.:35:57.

not top of most people's agenda. Secondly, you have to believe two

:35:58.:36:01.

things. Not only that the Tory party as the any party to vote for for

:36:02.:36:05.

this, but that they will win an overall majority and be in a

:36:06.:36:08.

position to implement it. That is a big thing to believe before

:36:09.:36:11.

breakfast. Now, not many people know this, but

:36:12.:36:14.

our self-styled Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, is actually

:36:15.:36:16.

mixed race, half British, half Dutch. Earlier this week, he listed

:36:17.:36:20.

what makes him proud to be half British. The NHS, the BBC, natch,

:36:21.:36:23.

the shipping forecast, cups of tea, Prince George, flag-waving, and

:36:24.:36:28.

queueing. Next week he's promised to reveal what makes him proud to be

:36:29.:36:32.

half Dutch. So, being a Liberal Democrat, expect clogs, cannabis

:36:33.:36:34.

cafes, the colour orange, Amsterdam's red light district and

:36:35.:36:37.

incredibly cheap university tuition fees that are now attracting British

:36:38.:36:44.

students in record numbers. On second thoughts, maybe he should

:36:45.:36:47.

keep that last one to himself, which is why we've decided to put

:36:48.:36:50.

inconvenient truths in this week's Spotlight.

:36:51.:37:09.

Freshfaced Immigration Minister James Brokenshire thought he was off

:37:10.:37:13.

to a good start by highlighting the inconvenient truth that drives the

:37:14.:37:18.

need for cheap immigrant labour. For too long, the benefits of

:37:19.:37:22.

immigration went to employers who wanted an easy supply of cheap

:37:23.:37:26.

labour, or to the wealthy metropolitan elite who wanted cheap

:37:27.:37:31.

trades men and services. It turned out the wealthy metropolitan elite

:37:32.:37:35.

he criticised included many members of the Cabinet, and even the Prime

:37:36.:37:40.

Minister and his wife. So what are the big truths that get little

:37:41.:37:44.

discussion? Sol Campbell has been tackling the inconvenient truth of

:37:45.:37:49.

racism in football, revealing the abuse he received from supporters,

:37:50.:37:52.

and how attitudes to race possibly hindered his career. I think if I

:37:53.:37:58.

was white, definitely my chances of being captain would have been

:37:59.:38:03.

enhanced. The Metropolitan Police are dealing with harsh accusations,

:38:04.:38:07.

too, following the shocking findings in the Ellison Review. Is the

:38:08.:38:12.

inconvenient truth that those in most need of policing are the police

:38:13.:38:17.

themselves, or are we being unfair? John Humphrys might say so. The BBC

:38:18.:38:22.

likes to be seen as a beacon of impartiality but he claimed this

:38:23.:38:27.

week that for many years the corporation had a broadly liberal

:38:28.:38:30.

bias. Whether in politics, journalism or sport, there are

:38:31.:38:35.

always unspoken issues. Is it because these things are not worthy

:38:36.:38:38.

of discussion, or can we simply not handle the truth? Sol Campbell joins

:38:39.:38:49.

us. Welcome to the programme. Is it an inconvenient truth that football

:38:50.:38:53.

is riddled with racism and homophobia? I think we have come a

:38:54.:38:57.

long way, especially with the racial side. Many clubs are doing

:38:58.:39:01.

fantastic. The FA and the Premier League are doing some stellar staff.

:39:02.:39:08.

I think we have come along way. Better than in your day. For sure.

:39:09.:39:14.

My book reflects what happens to me and what I had to go through. The

:39:15.:39:19.

homophobia aside, generally, has further to go. I don't think we are

:39:20.:39:24.

completely ready for that. They say may be the clubs are ready but on

:39:25.:39:27.

the terraces, I don't think we are ready for that. But, you know, I

:39:28.:39:34.

think it is a work in progress. Is there not still a tendency by

:39:35.:39:37.

football authorities to shove this under the carpet? Not just British

:39:38.:39:41.

football authorities, but sometimes international ones, to. When it

:39:42.:39:49.

comes to the racial side, yes, they have not find some clubs and players

:39:50.:39:53.

enough. Yes, you can say is weeping it under the carpet, a slap on the

:39:54.:39:57.

wrist with petty fines. That side has to change. If you want to really

:39:58.:40:06.

make a stand, I think fines, but also taking points off. Once the

:40:07.:40:10.

points start coming off, maybe internationally or at club level,

:40:11.:40:16.

people start to wake up. It hits the pocket. Also, you want your team or

:40:17.:40:21.

country to qualify. Has the culture in the locker room changed among the

:40:22.:40:27.

players? I think it has, yes. People have to understand. Sometimes people

:40:28.:40:33.

might say stuff in corners, and maybe a couple of players are not

:40:34.:40:38.

involved in that. But that will always go on. I think that goes on

:40:39.:40:47.

in most industries. For stating what many people agree is the obvious,

:40:48.:40:53.

you have come in for a bit of abuse. Doesn't that suggest there is still

:40:54.:40:58.

something wrong? There is something wrong. I am reflecting on what has

:40:59.:41:05.

happened to me. There is maybe an undercurrent, maybe subconsciously

:41:06.:41:08.

sometimes, they do not actually know they are doing it. For instance, you

:41:09.:41:13.

have the FA, who had a football commission recently put together.

:41:14.:41:19.

The first committee, the BBC came to me and said, what is wrong with

:41:20.:41:23.

this? The first thing which was staring at me was that there were no

:41:24.:41:28.

women and no one of Black origin. The BBC asked me to say something

:41:29.:41:32.

about it and I did. It got changed promptly, but for me, the train has

:41:33.:41:36.

gone and you are left at the platform. They rectified it, but it

:41:37.:41:42.

is almost a token thing. It is never the first thing. If you wanted to

:41:43.:41:46.

make a big statement, you would have said, let's get an ex-Black

:41:47.:41:49.

footballer who has done well and put him first, or a woman. And build

:41:50.:41:56.

from there. Do you think, the line was always that it was bad but it is

:41:57.:42:00.

getting better and there is some way to go? It was terrible and it is

:42:01.:42:06.

getting better. In football, as in so many other spheres of life, you

:42:07.:42:11.

get a change on the shop floor, at the coal face, and it takes a long

:42:12.:42:18.

time to up to the top. There are now 25%, a quarter of football league

:42:19.:42:22.

players in all four divisions who are black. But there is one black

:42:23.:42:26.

manager. It takes a long time for that to change around. That is your

:42:27.:42:32.

point, I guess, in terms of captain, manager positions,

:42:33.:42:36.

positions of leadership. Sometimes the diversity is elsewhere and it

:42:37.:42:41.

does not filter through. That has been true of American football as

:42:42.:42:44.

well, where there was a lack of black quarterbacks. Now we see that

:42:45.:42:50.

if you have a black quarterback you can win the Super Bowl, but it took

:42:51.:42:55.

a big push, and a lot of people arguing to make it happen. You are

:42:56.:42:59.

not a football fan but you have something to say. The subject is

:43:00.:43:05.

inconvenient truths. I am reflecting that a few weeks ago we were

:43:06.:43:08.

debating whether we should be boycotting Sochi, because the

:43:09.:43:12.

Russians supposedly had a law which discouraged teaching homosexuality

:43:13.:43:16.

in schools. Had we been staging the World Cup, I wonder if the Russians

:43:17.:43:20.

might have said, giving your record of homophobia in football, is this

:43:21.:43:25.

somewhere we ought to boycott? I think some humility because of

:43:26.:43:28.

inconvenient truths would be right and fitting. You cannot compare our

:43:29.:43:34.

records to the current situation in Russia on homophobia. It is almost a

:43:35.:43:39.

state policy there. I still think we ought to be very modest about it,

:43:40.:43:43.

partly because it persists in football, in the Church of England,

:43:44.:43:46.

and partly because the changes in this country have been very recent.

:43:47.:43:52.

If you were now in contention for the England captaincy, do you think

:43:53.:43:56.

you would be more likely to get it now? Having spoken out, probably

:43:57.:44:01.

not. I mean, do you think things have changed enough rest and Mark I

:44:02.:44:07.

hope so. If someone like me comes around, my stature, record and

:44:08.:44:11.

quality performances year after year, in my mid 20s, hopefully the

:44:12.:44:16.

FA would look upon, maybe sometimes the nation would look upon and the

:44:17.:44:18.

media would get behind someone like that. Good luck with the book.

:44:19.:44:23.

That's your lot for tonight, but not for us, because it's Wealthy

:44:24.:44:25.

Metropolitan Elite night at Lou Lou's, which means the Lithuanian

:44:26.:44:28.

baby-sitters of Cabinet ministers will be stuck at home with little

:44:29.:44:31.

Jemima and Peregrine while they get to dance round their red boxes until

:44:32.:44:35.

the wee small hours. But we leave you tonight with the gathering

:44:36.:44:39.

political storm. As UKIP secure their position in the polls, the

:44:40.:44:43.

party now faces the kind of scrutiny other major parties take for

:44:44.:44:47.

granted. Nigel dismisses many of the accusations levelled at him and the

:44:48.:44:51.

party, but things just got a lot more political for the anti-politics

:44:52.:44:56.

party. Nighty-night. Don't let the clear and outright denial of any

:44:57.:44:58.

wrongdoing bite.

:44:59.:45:01.

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