20/03/2014 This Week

As Education Secretary Michael Gove compares himself to Sherlock's

right-hand man, Dr Watson, This Week takes you on a 21st Century

Westminster adventure. Has Chancellor George Osborne used all

his elementary skills to woo the so-called "grey vote"? Our very own

political detective, Kevin Maguire, is on the case. This week's Budget

was go grey, but was Boy George being a bit too clever? There's

nothing very mysterious about President Putin's tactics in the

Ukraine. But just how tough should the West get with Russia? Economist

and business journalist Liam Halligan thinks we have to be

careful painting Putin as a villain. There are two sides to every story,

as we sleuths know and this case of Russia verses the West demands your

attention. And not a fictional adventure, but one of the world's

greatest living explorers, Ranulph Fiennes, joins us to talk adventure

and politics. I have get efrs but can I deal with the This Week

studio? Is Michael, will you be my Dr Watson? Evening all. Welcome to

This Week, a week when Ed Miliband showed it was perfectly possible to

respond to a Budget speech without mentioning a single measure in said

Budget. And the Tories showed they've not quite got the hang of

their new manifestation as the self-styled Workers Party. Yes, the

Labour leader decided not to bother thinking on his feet. He just cut

and pasted the most well-worn lines from his previous speeches and

trotted them out again for our delectation. The Tories guffawed and

heckled. But they wouldn't have been in such high spirits if they'd known

what was happening over at CCO ,"Condescending Central Office",

where Party Chairman Grant Shapps thought he was burnishing his

proletarian credentials by unveiling a digital poster which claimed the

Chancellor's cuts in Bingo Tax and Beer Duty were meant "to help

hard-working people do more of the things they enjoy" - thereby

sounding about as out of touch as the last time David Cameron walked

into his local food bank in Oxfordshire and asked for some

tinned swan and three ounces of Beluga caviar. Clearly, for the new

Workers Party, the workers are still another country. Mind you, the

Tories have previous on this. Harold Macmillan's famous phrase was,

"You've never had it so good." Not we. You. Speaking of those who know

nothing of how the other half live, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by

two cut-price bargain basements who are inexplicably popular. Think of

them as the Aldi and Lidl of late night political chat. I speak, of

course, of #sadmanonatrain, Michael Portillo, and #badabbotttobreak,

Diane Abbott. My moment of the week? I was very intrigued by the

revelation that the United States is now able to record every single

telephone call made in a particular foreign country. We don't know which

foreign country that was. I reflected that with all that

information that it is hoovering up, it was unable re foresee what was

going to happen in Ukraine and Crimea, after we had more or less

pushed the situation into a coup where the President resigned. And

now that I think about it, we didn't foresee the Syrian civil war. And

now that I think about it, we didn't foresee the revolution in Egypt or

the counterrevolution. They didn't foresee a Mr Snowden departing with

all the information. Another example. It makes me think the

resemblance is similar to the old Soviet Union where little men with

headphones listened to every conversation in every hotel bedroom

and every telephone call and amassed so much information it was

impossible to analyse. That can be the only conclusion. Diane? This

morning the House of Commons had tributes to Tony Benn. We had great

speeches. Peter tap Sal, Tory, gave a great speech and Hilary Benn,

Tony's son gave the best speech I have ever heard him give. But the

most amazing was Denis Skinner. A typical Skinner speech with the

northern entertainer jokes but underlying was the reality was what

he was trying to tell the House what he had loved Tony Benn. It was

moving for that reason. # How long does it take to redraw the borders

of a country? Three weeks if you're President Putin. Yes, he added

Crimea to his Russian Empire in just 21 days, from start to finish. Alex

Salmond must be blue-green with envy. But has the British reporting

of events in Crimea been too one-sided? Even unfairly

anti-Russian? As Barack Obama announces further sanctions today,

is the West's approach working, or will it backfire? We turned to

Telegraph financial journalist Liam Halligan, who has lived and worked

extensively in Russia. This is his take of the week.

This Crimea crisis has shown Western diplomacy to be firmly stuck in the

20th Century. Talk of a new Cold War is deeply alarmist. And staggeringly

outda.d Western politicians have demeaned themselves, posturing

before each other and domestic elect traits. We have made threats to

Russia we can't keep, completely mis-playing our hand. Now limited

sanctions are already in place but our leaders want more, yet any

further action will be deeply counter-productive Russia is the

EU's third largest trading partner and Germany's biggest overall and

war Cold War argy bargy and Crimean default could bring havoc to global

markets. Now Western media reports invariably Dirks ss Russia. We are

right, they are wrong. -- diss. When it comes to reporting rushia, a

pretence of balance comes out of the window as we console ourselves that

the Western world has the moral high ground and Vladimir Putin is nothing

more but a power hungry despot who wants to kill us in our beds. Of

course Russians in Crimea want closer ties with Moscow and of

course many Russian speakers across Ukraine were alarmed at the ousting

of a democratic elect elected President by thugs backed by the

West. Did they cross the bored and invade Ukraine? Maybe or maybe not.

I have yet to see clear invasion footage. This Crimea crisis has set

back East/West relations and upended the broader diplomatic landscape.

The US and EU are split. Germany's reemmerged as a major diplomatic

player and Russia and China have moved closer together. We British in

my view have been skril, dis disingenuous and shown a lack of

understanding. The Cold War is over, guys, the Soviet June is no more.

There is a new world order and Russia has a major role to play.

And from the Marie Vann restaurant, Russia's biggest suburb, we are

joined by Liam Halligan. Why do you have such a pro-rf Russian view?

This guy is spectacularly popular in his own country with hay approval

ratings. As far as Russians are concerned, the majority of them, he

has turned the economy around and restored their national pride, taken

on the oligarchs and taxed the oil and gas companies and given them

back some self-respect. He is also rather nasty and authoritarian,

isn't he? He controls the media. He runs a regime which discriminates

against homosexuals and there is very little freedom there. I don't

know how much time you have spent there in the last 20 years. I have

been going there regularly. Hep doesn't control the media? I spent

time living there. I went there in the early '90s. This was the more

authoritarian society in the world within my lifetime, 25 years ago. If

you compare it to what it was then to now, the progress is enormous.

There is no major media outlet in the country, all of which is spewing

out Ukrainian propaganda, that he doesn't control. That's not true.

There are independent newspapers and television channels. He closed down

the last two and put his people into them You can walk along the banks of

the river and stand on a soapbox and say what you like. Of course it is

not as purelistic as many Western countries but 25 years ago it was a

totalitarian dictator sh. What sted direction of travel? The direction

of travel is almost entirely to the good. Is there any doubt in your

mind that he effectively annexed Crimea? There are two sides to the

story. On the one hand, if Crimea will become part of Russia and it is

not finalised that will happen, that thereby a transgression of

international law. Noerned in the UN charter there is the right to

self-determine nailing which the Crimean people have expressed. The

Russians would say the current Ukrainian Government is illegitimate

and almost any objective commentator would agree. Viktor Yanukovych

wasn't popular. Well he was a cleptocrat. But you know, a report

said of his election that it was fair "it was pluralistic, it was a

good example of democracy." We have now backed a situation where the

Ukrainian people weren't allowed to un-elect that guy. That's the irony.

Next year they would have un-elected him. We stopped that happening. We

stopped that happening. Are you proud of that Westerner? A democrat,

somebody who is interested in plurality. I don't think my pride is

at issue. You are defending a situation where we removed a

democratically elected politician. The Ukrainian people did T With

Western endorsement and Western backing and Western leaders standing

with mega phones in central Kiev, screaming the odds. Are you in any

doubt that once he did become leader, he filled his boots, with

Russian support, that he is a cleptocrat? Correct? Russia,

Ukraine, many parts - many emerging markets and parts of the developing

world there are grubby fussings of money and politics. We are fwha sent

capitalist societies like we were at the end of the 19th century. But

these guys are trying to adopt democracy. These things take time.

But are we right to up-end the path of Ukrainian democracy by

effectively intervening to stop a politician who had become unpopular

from being democratically un-elected, as he was democratically

elected? I have major concerns as a British person that we are involved

in a situation that stopped that natural progression of Ukrainian

democracy from happening. I think the extent of our involvement is

highly limited. But let me come to you, Liam finished his piece by

saying Russia is a formidable power and the West cannot afford not to

respect it. It is a player on the international stage. Two weeks ago

you said as a country it was breaking up and going down the pan.

I don't know if those were my exact words but it was the direction of

travel. I agree with a great deal of what Liam said. He Saud the Russian

people expect him for restoring the Russian economy. I think it is

illusionary. It is dependent on oil, a variable price economy. The rouble

has sunk very badly during this crisis. I think the Russian economy

is delicate. I think the state of the peoples of the Russian

Federation is delicate. I think they face a major Islamist and terrorist

threat. I think they are desperate it maintain the balance of Slavs and

Muslims within the Russian Federation. So I say all of those

things. Let me get Liam to reply. He is busting to get N on you go. I

have spent most of my adult life studying the Russian economy from

literally the early '90s onward. In 2003, the Russian economy was 40%

oil and gas. It is now 15% oil and goes. Less than Norway. Yes, of

course it is a hydrocarbon superpower but Russia's service

sector is three times bigger than its oil and gas sector much it is a

myth to say this is entirely a petro economy. It's diversifying

incredibly quickly, as any decent merelying market investor will tell

you. It is not true to say -- emerging market. It is not true to

say the population is declining. Everyone says that all the time.

Russia now has a birth rate higher than the EU average and the decline

in population they saw was far less than almost any other East European

country. We believe what we want to believe because we have a Cold War

mentality, that we have to hammer these guys and beat them into the

ground. It is not right. We should be trading with these guys and

treating them as partners. I need to bring in Diane. One way to get your

population to increase is to annex everybody around you.

They are now talking, Diane, about tougher sanctions. Is this the right

way forward or not? The EU will not go for serious

economic sanctions because Germany is Russia's biggest trading partner.

There is a view in the House of Commons, not just people - That

Russia isn't Germany's biggest trading partner. It's not? Yes, but

- It's the biggest single trading partner. The EU. Germany, Russia is

Germany's 11th biggest export market. 11th. My point is a

parliamentary point. Combined imports and exports. You are wrong.

My point is a parliamentary point. Increasingly MPs on the right of the

Tory party, not so in my own party, are wondering why we are get ing

drawn into this - We shouldn't do anything? We can't follow-through.

Asking you. We should don't anything, that is the conclusion by

what you say? There is a feeling the EU may have mishandled it in the

first place. Sglie understand that, what is the Diane Abbott policy

against Russia? I'm backbench, I don't have a policy. You splus a

view. You arified have a view, that is why you are on here? There may be

token travel travel sanctions we could impose. Would you do? Nothing?

My view is, that there may be token travel and Visa sanctions - You,

what would you do, you won't tell me? I told you what I would do.

Snowing There are token sanctions - You would go along with those? Token

sanctions. When it comes to serious trade sanctions they are not going

to happen. Are talking sanctions? We have to express our dissprees sure.

Were gog say something, Michael? When I was Defence Secretary, quite

a long time ago - True it is. Let me finish the point. We were extending

- On the defensive. Defending NATO and the European Union, we were

cautious not to include Ukraine in that expansion. We thought it was

completely unrealistic to take Ukraine into NATO or the European

Union. We have recognised it would be massive provocation to the

Russians. Somehow, that sensible approach has been lost over the

years. That actually we arrived in a situation where we were offering

you, you know, the prospect of EU membership, even NATO membership to

Ukraine, which has a strong effect in destabilising the country and

antagonised Putin. It's extraordinary how we failed to

predict what the Russian's next move wouldwould be. Will Mr Putin do

next? I think he will try to de-escalate the situation. I think,

you know, the probability is that Ukraine - Crimea will become part of

Russia. That's a done deal? No, Andrew, really you are not right.

It's not a done deal. Did he say Andrew is not right? Crimea is not

part of Russia? There is enabling legislation to allow it to happen.

It still hasn't happened. I bet you ?1,000 it happens? OK. Will you take

that bet on? I won't bet live on television. The probability is that

will happen. What does he do next? Many ways to skin a cat. There maybe

negotiation where Crimea becomes a protect rate. People in Crimea in no

in terms want to be part of Russia. That was whants I asked? It's a

defensive lobbies wet dream - Does he go for east Ukraine? I'm getting

there. It's a defence lobbiest wet dream he wants - He will not attempt

to take control of east Ukraine? I would be astonished if he did that.

As the Russians know, it's Ukraine's destiny to be a bilingual nation to

be a buffer between the west European world and the Slovak world.

Ukraine doesn't want to be part of NATO. There has never been an

opinion poll. You said it won't happen. We have it on tape. Events

will see if you are right or wrong. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now,

it's late - and you're probably feeling sleepier than Eric Pickles

during a Boy George budget speech - but don't tidy up those Blue Nun

empties just yet because waiting in our frost-bitten wings - enduring

the most unadventurous adventure of his entire life - Ranulph Fiennes is

here to explore why people don't take greater risks in life and

politics. And, if your idea of danger is moaning on the internet

about how much of your licence fee is spent on this nonsense, you'll be

in equally edgy company on the Twitter, the Fleecbook and the

Interweb. Now, we're not ones to blow our own trumpet. In fact, we

celebrate modesty and mediocrity! As you can see! As you can see, Liam.

So we were delighted this week to hear a senior politician admit that

he didn't have the star quality to be Prime Minister! Yes, Michael Gove

summoned up all his false modesty to say he was perfectly happy being a

lowly sidekick, the Dr Watson to David Cameron's Sherlock Holmes. So

we asked our own man lacking ambition, the Mirror's Kevin

Maguire, for his Budget roundup of the week. His very low budget

roundup. Yes, when it comes to modesty and mediocrity, nobody does

it better than us. It was Monday and I was on my way to

221b Downing Street to call upon my good friend, Mr George Osborne, a

genius, a man possessed of almost superhuman powers of deduction.

Wait, don't tell me my good man, from the dust on your shoe, the bags

under your eye and the flem in on your shoulder you are an over tired

parent struggling to get by on ?149,000 a year and desperate for my

help. But, George, it's me, Dr Gove your best friend. Mr Osborne, like

his older brother, Dave, has a star quality I can't match. Sometimes I'm

so tongue-tied with awe that everything comes out wrong. There

are a ridiculous number of Old Etonians in the Cabinet? I read that

interview. What Michael Gove is talking about what he is passionate

about, improving the education of this country. Public school charm.

It didn't save me though. I found my friend in pencive mood. A humour

reached him of a fresh plot from Johnson and his groanies. It's

ridiculous that the only pool where the Tories fish in is in fact the

very limited pool of current MPs in the House of Commons, are there not

other possible candidates? A humble plotter such as I had no idea what

on earth he was about. My friend's brilliant mind was working overtime.

Gove, I need help to solve a devil of a mystery by Thursday. I neat to

thwart my enemies. I want to appear as if auto I'm giving billions of

pounds to everyone without spending a penny. I came up with a plan to

help downtrodden couples scraping by on under ?300,000 a year. 's a nanny

subsidy. This is simple. Everyone can go on to the Government's

website, create an account, put more of their money, in grandparents can

put money in. Take the money out when you need. For every 80p you

spend, the Government will spend 20p. Was beyond me. I buried my head

in that morning's edition of the Illustrated London News. It appeared

that the Tzar was up to his tricks again. No amount of sham and

perverse democratic process, or secured historical reference cans

make up for the fact that this is an incursion into a sovereign state and

a land grab of part of its territory with no respect for the law of that

country or for international law. My friend's brilliant mind was on other

matters. I have a marvellous idea. We need to cut taxes to show we

care, but although the economy is growing, we haven't got any pounds

to spend. Why don't we just cut a bit off the pound coin, sir? Gove,

that is a wonderful idea, get out there and find me more headline

grabbing ideas by Wednesday and meet me in Westminster.

This is a Budget for building a resilient economy. If you are a

maker, a doer or a saver, this Budget is for you. It is all part of

a long-term economic plan. A plan that is to delivering security for

the people of this country. Pensioners will have complete

freedom to draw down as much or as little of their pension pot as they

want, any time they want, no cap, no drawn down limits, let me be clear,

no-one will have to buy annuity. He came out all guns blazing and fought

the good fight on class war. Shame he forgot about the Budget. It

doesn't mat fer the pound is square, round or oval if you are ?1,600 a

year worse off you are still ?1,600 worse off. Chap can be rude

sometimes. Wrfrjts is the Education Secretary? He has been banished...

He is hiding. He is hiding! The Education Secretary has been

hiding... I think Mr Deputy spaeshg he has been con signed to the

naughty step by the Prime Minister. -- speaker. It appeared that the

Napoleon of politics Johnson was up to his tricks again. You were always

like this. Behave. It's not your turn for the champagne. It's my

party, I will have my way. Ahhh! Don't worry, it's all an illusion,

islanded on my annuities. Boris, you can't kill me off that easily!

Michael, Osborne's pension reform, good policy and good politics? Yes.

I think good justice as well. This annuity problem I think was a major

injustice. Even though people are assisted to save for their pension

by tax relief, the control that the state took over, the money they had

put aside, was such that they were not allowed to draw more than a

small part of that. Then, at a certain age, had to take an annuity.

Where interest rates the annuity they were given was daylight

robbery. If you had arrived from Mars and looked at this situation,

would you have concluded it was deeply unjust. What... For many

years people considered how we could get away from the requirement to

have annuities. I don't remember anyone suggesting to set people free

to do what they want with their lump sum. I think it is a a good thing.

What many people retired will do is find other investment vehicles. Look

for shares and bonds and property to put that money into. Labour doesn't

seem yet to know exactly how to respond to this reform, what would

you advise? Well, really our problem is that we have to think through

what our economic offer is. Are we going to do the same sorts of cuts

that Osborne is doing only with some slight variants... On pension

reform? Oh, on the pension reform. Given that Osborne doesn't have any

new money to spend, to be fair to him, it's quite ingenius, it will be

popular with retire es they will will have all this money. Treasury

will get a bigger tax cut. They will be spending money. And so on. More

people may be encouraged to save for pensions. That may be. Politically,

Osborne, whatever you say about him, he is looking good nowadays on the

5: 2 diet. Whatever you say about him, it's very political. This is

above all a burning arrow designed to hit the heart of UKIP. That's the

political motivation? It is the political motivation. Remember also

he has given this analysis of a recovery which is the wrong

recovery. One of the ways in which it's the wrong recovery we continue,

we have low interest rates, to encourage people to borrow and

discourage people to save. Although he can't yet change the low interest

investment, this is quite an important move towards encouraging a

bit of saving. Miranda, you can see what is in it for the Tories, what

is it it for the Lib Dems, the pension reform Steve Webb the

pension minister a Lib Dem and the expert on pensions. He made it his

life's study. On the policy. Itself. What is in the politics for the Lib

Dems It's quite broad actually. Fundamentally, we have spent weeks

on the sofa discussing which coalition rows are genuine division,

which are play fights, all of that, actually, what the Budget has shown

is reports of the coalition together is somewhat exaggerated - There is

life in it yet. They presented a united front. Clear Lib Dem wins

they could tick off. More than that, they are part of a governing project

which showed this week it has a lot to say and a lot to do. That doesn't

just make UKIP look imhe tent, it makes the Labour Party look

impotent. That is very helpful for the Lib Dems indeed. That depends on

whether the electorate is comforted by Osborne's little bunny rabbits.

They are little bunny rabbits. The pension stuff is the biggest issue.

Depends whether the Government is comforted by that - the electorate.

Or whether they reflect. What we are seeing is correct, it's actually

correct their living standards are going down and will continue to go

down. Whether - They won't continue to go down. The OBR forecast show

that is wages will start to overtake prices in the summer? Well, yes. But

whether the living standards argument trump the macroeconomics.

They wouldn't be as high in 2014 as they were in 2014. The argument will

be on the one hand that clear average wages will not have

recovered by 2015 to their previous level. That's the point Labour will

make. The Tories riposte will be - we are moving in the right

direction. It is which argument wins. It is the question -- are you

better off than you were five years ago? Talking about it as a project,

the coalition government, the thing that impressed me, the borrowing

figure has halved in the sincing the beginning of the Government. It is

projected we will move into surplus. It hasn't happened. Down to 6. 6.

Borrowing, Labour left a deficit of ?166 billion. This financial year,

108. Was it not 13s? This is now 6. 6. The Government is using

percentage of GDP. And we are going to get to a surplus by 2018 if

things continue on their present path. In other words, the public

finances are transformed once you get growth back into the situation.

But it is growth based on a housing bubble in London. You have not cut

the deficit as quickly as Osborne promised in 2010. Of course it is

the case. It is the case. I I think it is transformational. One of the

best-kept secrets is all the time we are ranting about the Italians and

Greeks and casualties of the eurozone, we were running the

largest deficit of the European Union. Michael is right on that,

shouldn't the Liberal Democrats then be putting more effort into taking

credit for things that they think really coming right, rather than all

the effort they are putting in now to distance themselves from the

Tories? In my personal view, yes. She is very sound on this. The

problem is, I think, that all parties are suffering from a similar

thing at the moment, which is, it is the quite short run-up to the

election now and a couple of elections in the way of even the

general election and there was a rush of polling data to the head.

And that has made them think in a much too narrow way about picking

off their own groups of voters, rather than a broader pitch and

broader appeal. Myself, I think the Liberal Democrats' only hope at the

next election is a broad appeal to - you finally gave us a chance at

Government, look we are quite good at T it has to be the central

message. I have -- at it. I have come from addressing a public event.

Somebody described the Tories to me as extremists. I put my head in my

hands. If that is the way the Tories are regarded at the moment. That way

lies death. David Cameron always knew the only place the Tories could

win the election was on the centre-ground. And, he needs to get

back with the can he alies, stressing it is a centrist

government that has done centrist things and produced sensible results

rather than banging on about the EU and immigration which makes people

believe it is extremists. But the backbenchers... Had They don't let

him. That's why the coalition is his salvation. The fact he has 60

merchandise backing him, he isn't held hostage by 40 Tory MPs. There

are more than 40 Tory MPs who would love him to bang on about

immigration in Europe. Do you see George Osborne as a Tory leader?

Snool oh, yes. Because you hate Boris Johnson. It could be a

contributory factor. Before the last election, I was thinking of George

beforedom. Such is my respect for him. I could see him as a leader. He

has a few rough edges, a few presentational difficulties but, no,

he is absolute leadership quality. Thank you. I like the smirk in your

face there. Now, Noel Edmonds trying to buy the

BBC, Bez from the Happy Mondays standing as an MP in Salford, Diane

Abbott's London mayoral ambitions - yes, lost causes come in many shapes

and sizes but just because we're all doomed to failure doesn't mean we

shouldn't give it a go. Install a bank of telephone lines and hope for

the best. But is politics now increasingly risk averse and could

politicians learn something from a man willing to saw off his own

fingertips with a blunt fretsaw? Quite possibly. And that's why we've

decided to put "adventure" in this week's Spotlight.

# Take time to see the wonders of the world... #

# If you show weakness to Antarctica, I think it knows T Are

such dangerous expeditions just for Princes or should we be more

adventurous. Ranulph Fiennes probably thinks so.

French ministers introduced an adventurous antipollution policy

this week with cars in Paris only allowed to drive depending on

whether their numberplate was odd or even.

Plus, new head of HS2 believes we should be far more ambition and

build further and faster in the face of protests and prevarication.

And back in Westminster, pension annuity reform may not sound

adventurous, but could this policy proved to be Osborne's Everest? So,

are politicians too often too timid when it comes to pushing the

boundaries of policy? Maybe we could all learn a thing or two about

putting safety last, rather than always putting safety first. Who

dares wins. We dare. We will win. Sadly, I was there live and remember

that carcrash as it happened. Ranulph Fiennes joins us now.

Welcome to the programme. Having a sense of adventure, do you think it

is a good thing? It depends who you are. If you want to live up to your

adventurous dreams, and sometimes you can't, so you don't want to get

above yourself. Are you born with it? Or is it installed or instilled

in you? That's a big question which a lot of people are argued. I think

it is a bit of both, definitely. If you have a strong sense of

adventure, you must have a robust nature to deal with things - things

are often more likely to go wrong if you have a sense of adventure, if

you take risk. Yes, but we are in it for the competition. The Norwegians

think they own the polar regions and for 40 years now, we know who they

are and we need to break the remaining polar records, before they

do. If it is risky, you are more likely to be stopped in not breaking

that particular record. You want to go around risks not at them. But you

have to be unafraid of failure, I would think, to be a proper

adventurer? It is aed about thing, we depend on sponsors. They don't

like failure. -- it is a bad thing. Do you think our politicians are

lacking in adventure because adventure exposes you to more

failure? There is a greater risk of it? And they hate that. I would want

to be a politician. They are dealing with risky people. We are just

dealing with nature. Nature is not wiley and duplicitous like people

and politicians - well, I will not be rude about politicians. I think

you were. I take it back. Do not. Leave it on the table. Is nature

really not duplicitous when the weather turns against you, for

example? Yes, but unless you have some sort of bad weather, Mr Fisher,

whatever, you reckon on bad weather. You plan pessimistically and

sometimes we plan seven years ahead. We did the first ever journey around

Earth vertically. It has never been repeated. It took three years,

50,000 miles, without flying one mile. Never been repeated. We

plannedp seven years. Everything was pose mustic planning. I would think

for a Government, the same thing is best. -- pest misically. Our

politicians, are they adventurous today or risk averse? I think in

general they are probably risk averse. However, as ran you have has

just said, it is important to assess your risks. -- Ranulf. I was struck

by what you were talking about, not going through a problem, going

around T Margaret Thatcher, it was striking although she new her origin

and destination, the route between the two was very often a did I zag

to get around problems. The important thing was to end know

where you were ending up -- zig zag. The Successful politicians are the

one who take risk. David Miliband could have stood against Tony Blair,

and then saw his brother pip him. David Cameron took a risk for the

Tory leadership when he was relatively young. And behind at the

time. And behind. So I think successful politicians, as

individuals have to be prepared to take a risk. A successful adventurer

does know the risks, otherwise you are not so much an adventurer, as

fool hardy. You have to anticipate what will go wrong and what the

dangers will be? We do. But we have the end result which is - we are

going to break the world record. We are going to get the first winter

journey, shall we say to the Pole. Our reward is when we plant our flag

there. It is not the English flag, it is the Union Jack. The worst

thing for us would be if our brothers, the Scots, leave us. That

would be dreadful. Have you embarked on an adventure when you then, as it

has gone on, thought - I wish I had never started out on this, this is

crazy. Yes, and that's not good because your sponsor has been told

you are going to succeed. You cannot immediately accept the failure. You

have to find a way around it. What was - what was that? What adventure

were you on? Well, we were trying to find the Lost city Aruba for 26

years. Four-wheel drive into the great dessert and having found a

pillar in the middle of the sand but on the last day before the hot

season we knew we would come back and BP would sponsor it and find the

next year and only then discovered German archaeologists had put it

there. We were on a hiding for nothing and when we came back NASA

had started looking for it using the Apollo and all the rest of it. We

found it through sheer good luck, not NASA or the German

archaeologists. Every now and again you need luck. I would have thought

in your business, you need look. Even politicians need luck. Sounds

like you came across duplicity? German duplicity. Do you think as a

society we are Morrisk averse. Yes, I have had mums coming to see me to

sue the school because their child fell off the climbing frame. I said

- if you sue because of that, children will never be able to play

again. They are not allowed to go in our

divror Tesco, because a trolley might run the children over. It is

funny what you think about when asked that question - I had gone to

the other extreme - we are talking about a country which in the last

few years has gone to war in Iraq, in Afghanistan and Libya. In some

ways, our governments have been very risky in what they have done. They

have indeed. There was no proper assessment in any of the risks

involved. Yet on small things as Diane says we have become Morrisk

averse. Just remind us of the story of what you had to do, you had got

so much frost bite had taken, that you had to cut your fingers off? Not

quite like that. That sounds pretty eccentric. Eccentric is not the

word, sounds horriblement I had frost bite. The fingers had to come

off. You are moving around with three inches of mummified red

finger, but the surgeons won't cut it off for half months because the

half dead bit will become the new flaps after amputation. That has to

have five months to get better. Every time you touch something it

hurts like hell. No wonder the ge stoop tow went for fingers. I was

getting irritable. My wife said we must do something like that. I got a

black and decker and fretsaw and Jenny brought me cups of tea. It

took two days to do the thumb. I think that'll keep some people awake

tonight. Wet' better leave it there. You asked the question. You

answered. That's your lot for tonight folks - but not for us,

because scientists equipped with an incredibly powerful telescope have

discovered exciting evidence of a primordial gravitational wave -

emanating from Michael Portillo's cha cha. So we're all off to Lou

Lou's dance floor to confirm their findings. But after Pensions

Minister Steve Webb today declared that he was perfectly relaxed about

people frittering away their pension savings on hookers and Lamborghinis

- I paraphrase only slightly - we leave you tonight with the latest

prospectus from British Association of Pension Funds. Nighty night.

Don't let the end-of-life crisis bite. Thb say I might as well face

the truth # That I am just too long in the

tooth # I started to deteriorate

# And new I'm past by own sell-buy date

# So I'm a wrinkley, Cinkly, set in my ways

# It's true that my body has seen better days

# But give me half a chance and I can still misbehave

# One foot in the grave # One foot in the grave... #