19/05/2016 This Week


19/05/2016

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Tonight on this Week's Game of Thrones:

:00:09.:00:13.

But say what you wish, there will always be battles

:00:14.:00:20.

His Lordship, John Bird, tells us why the haves

:00:21.:00:26.

There are no great victories for the poor to be seen in the flames.

:00:27.:00:32.

And those who seek to help, give the wrong medicine.

:00:33.:00:40.

Pomp and heraldry greeted the return of Queen Elizabeth II

:00:41.:00:42.

to Westminster, but were all her subjects pleased?

:00:43.:00:46.

Lord of the North, Andrew Rawnsley, is not impressed.

:00:47.:00:50.

Lord Cameron of House Tory tried to distract his party

:00:51.:00:52.

But by the old gods and the new, nothing could stop the blue

:00:53.:00:58.

We resurrect top reptilian conspiracy theorist,

:00:59.:01:11.

What am I doing on mainstream television? Did I come through the

:01:12.:01:22.

wrong door? Who will be the one to lead us

:01:23.:01:24.

through this endless night? Evenin' all, welcome

:01:25.:01:27.

to This Week, the week And we can tell by the look

:01:28.:01:43.

on your face that you're A king-size Whopper of a speech

:01:44.:01:48.

with extra fries and a full-fat There are the usual Moaning Minnies

:01:49.:01:55.

who say the referendum is proving a huge distraction from

:01:56.:02:00.

the business of government. But just look at what Her Maj read

:02:01.:02:02.

out yesterday and you'll see why Call-Me-Dave sacrificed a low-flying

:02:03.:02:06.

career in public relations And why the Labour Party,

:02:07.:02:09.

even led by a political Titan like Jezza, is facing a life-sapping

:02:10.:02:15.

generation in opposition. You wanted a Small Charitable

:02:16.:02:20.

Donations Bill, clarifying the rules concerning how charities

:02:21.:02:23.

connected with community You called for a Cultural Property

:02:24.:02:25.

Bill, to make dealing in cultural property illegally exported

:02:26.:02:31.

from occupied territories And forget a third

:02:32.:02:32.

runway at Heathrow - who needs that when

:02:33.:02:41.

we're going to build You can hear them quaking

:02:42.:02:43.

in Cape Canaveral as I speak. Who cares if Zac Goldsmith threatens

:02:44.:02:52.

to resign and trigger This is progressive,

:02:53.:02:55.

visionary, centrist Proof - if proof were needed -

:02:56.:03:00.

that the Lib Dems Provided, of course,

:03:01.:03:06.

you're not worried about the slowing of the economy, the condition

:03:07.:03:12.

of the poor, the high budget deficit I don't think any of that rated

:03:13.:03:15.

a mention. Speaking of a lack of ambition,

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I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two Westminster duds we found

:03:23.:03:24.

in the This Week toilets. Think of them as the suspect device

:03:25.:03:27.

and the suspect package I speak, of course, of #fourpercent

:03:28.:03:32.

Liz "Miserables" Kendall and #sadmanonatrain Michael

:03:33.:03:37.

"Choo Choo" Portillo. Your moment of the week? I want to

:03:38.:03:52.

pick up where you left off because the Queens speech was the moment of

:03:53.:03:58.

the week. In 2015, a majority Conservative government was elected

:03:59.:04:04.

for the first time since 1992. 23 years, we have waited with bated

:04:05.:04:08.

breath for this. Now it comes forward with its Queens speech,

:04:09.:04:12.

after 23 years of careful thought about what they would like to do

:04:13.:04:16.

with office and power. And the answer is, there is nothing they

:04:17.:04:21.

want to do with office or power. The Government is in total paralysis

:04:22.:04:24.

because the only thing that matters to them now is saving the Prime

:04:25.:04:28.

Minister's career, which is dependent only on winning the

:04:29.:04:30.

referendum for the remainder campaign. And that majority that he

:04:31.:04:36.

secured last year is all for nothing. The Government has nothing

:04:37.:04:41.

to do, nothing to say and thinks nothing. Very well. He is not on the

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fence. I am going to cheer everybody up. My moment of the week was

:04:48.:04:51.

Monday's parade celebrating Leicester City's football club

:04:52.:04:57.

winning the Premier League. It was amazing. I just thought I would rub

:04:58.:05:03.

it in a little bit more. I think as Brits we are used to falling at the

:05:04.:05:05.

last hurdle and something going wrong. But this time things did not

:05:06.:05:11.

go wrong and I am very proud we worked so hard as a team. We didn't

:05:12.:05:16.

give up, and despite all the odds, we won. For me, the taste of victory

:05:17.:05:23.

was very sweet indeed. It was an amazing day for the city and I think

:05:24.:05:28.

a lot of people in the country were happy and pleased. So a big night

:05:29.:05:34.

for rugby union in Leicester. Oh, it was the round ball, was it? We will

:05:35.:05:36.

have a kick about later. Now, in a week where Her Maj

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outlined 21 new government Bills, what will any of them do to help

:05:40.:05:41.

Britain's disadvantaged? Why is there still so much poverty

:05:42.:05:44.

in this, the fifth largest economy in the world,

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with its massive welfare state Here's Big Issue founder Lord John

:05:48.:05:49.

Bird with his take of the week. It wasn't so long ago that

:05:50.:06:13.

David Cameron, in a bid to leave some kind of legacy,

:06:14.:06:16.

called for an all-out The right prescription but maybe

:06:17.:06:18.

the wrong medicine. Because many of those who deliver

:06:19.:06:24.

policies for the poor do so as if the poor are some

:06:25.:06:27.

strange other species. We cannot assault poverty if those

:06:28.:06:32.

suffering under it are seen We need to treat the poor as though

:06:33.:06:48.

they have potential and the ability Unfortunately, the well-intentioned

:06:49.:06:57.

hold them back. Government is often doing the wrong

:06:58.:07:03.

thing, spending too much money on keeping people in poverty,

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rather than getting them out. At times it seems like a conspiracy

:07:07.:07:11.

of dunces, where they haven't joined It's those at the bottom of society

:07:12.:07:14.

who are feeling the consequences. We fail people at school,

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and often they end up in prison, or in A, as a result of self harm

:07:23.:07:25.

or drink and drugs. And this week we've had

:07:26.:07:32.

the Queens Speech outlining 21 bills, none of which will

:07:33.:07:35.

help to dismantle poverty. It's a terrible tragedy,

:07:36.:07:43.

but the thing is, unless you fare well on welfare, you can't

:07:44.:07:46.

say farewell to welfare. Most importantly, we need to knock

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on the head the abysmal failure to bring intelligence,

:07:53.:07:55.

theirs or ours, to the problem. Because we have another problem

:07:56.:08:01.

coming down the track, the young, middle-class people

:08:02.:08:04.

lumbered with student debts and unable to buy houses

:08:05.:08:06.

and raise their families. Each government says it's

:08:07.:08:14.

going to end poverty, but now is the time

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to actually get on with it. From Vauxhall City Farm

:08:19.:08:27.

to our own little This Week pigsty, John, if you had been writing the

:08:28.:08:41.

Queen's Speech and there was one thing you could do about poverty,

:08:42.:08:45.

what would you have put into that speech? I would have demanded of the

:08:46.:08:55.

poor and those people who are stuck in poverty, the postponement of,

:08:56.:09:04.

what is the word, you know that word, postponement of... The benefit

:09:05.:09:15.

cap? No, no. I would say that the poor need to learn what you have

:09:16.:09:18.

learned and you have learned and I have learned, which is the fact that

:09:19.:09:23.

you postpone the idea of gratification. And the unfortunate

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thing is that all these people in the Labour Party and the

:09:32.:09:34.

Conservative Party and everybody else, and what they are doing is

:09:35.:09:37.

they are almost conspiring in keeping the poor poor. Because they

:09:38.:09:42.

don't face up to the idea that living in poverty is a bit of a

:09:43.:09:47.

killer. But I am sure by definition if you are poor you are pretty much

:09:48.:09:53.

having to postpone gratification. Oui sorry. If you are poor, you do

:09:54.:09:57.

not have much to gratify yourself in the first place. Is it the poor who

:09:58.:10:07.

are to blame because they are poor? Who is talking about blame? We are

:10:08.:10:11.

talking about a mechanism for getting out of poverty and all this

:10:12.:10:14.

stuff about who to blame and who not to blame... The really important

:10:15.:10:19.

thing is, do we allow the poor to carry on being poor, or do we allow

:10:20.:10:23.

them to express themselves and move out of poverty? The most important

:10:24.:10:28.

thing about the postponement of gratification is that Mr Portillo

:10:29.:10:36.

and Liz Kendall, at some stage your family postpone gratification and

:10:37.:10:41.

saved for the future. And they never do that because nobody ever allows

:10:42.:10:49.

the poor to be like us. They look upon the poor as though the poor are

:10:50.:10:56.

another species. Lives, what is the position of poverty in this country?

:10:57.:10:59.

We were looking through some of the figures. -- Liz. Almost one third of

:11:00.:11:06.

the population fell into a technical definition of poverty in the first

:11:07.:11:10.

three years that David Cameron became Prime Minister but also those

:11:11.:11:14.

who fall into poverty have a greater chance of seeing their fortune

:11:15.:11:17.

improve than anywhere else in Europe. Surprising to me, persistent

:11:18.:11:22.

poverty is the third lowest in Europe. What do you see as the

:11:23.:11:27.

picture? It is clear that poverty can happen to many people. We tend

:11:28.:11:31.

to discuss it as if it happens to other people but many people can

:11:32.:11:35.

fall in and out of poverty. The biggest change has been the increase

:11:36.:11:40.

in the number of working poor, and the endemic low pay in this country

:11:41.:11:44.

is one of the underlying causes of poverty. Even though they are

:11:45.:11:50.

working, they get trapped. Trapped on low wages. Even before the

:11:51.:11:53.

financial crisis people were not seeing the benefit of growth in

:11:54.:11:56.

their pay packet. You asked about one thing that would make a

:11:57.:12:00.

difference in the Queen's Speech. I think the very early years of life,

:12:01.:12:05.

when kids in my constituency start school, aged three and a half, but

:12:06.:12:12.

develop between 15 and 20 months behind where they should be, they

:12:13.:12:16.

play catch up for the rest of their lives. I would like to see

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investment in the early years to halt kids start school ready to

:12:20.:12:23.

learn, instead of an inheritance tax cut for the rich which entrenches

:12:24.:12:27.

wealth and privilege. You would need more than the savings of the

:12:28.:12:33.

inheritance tax cut. This government, and Gordon Brown before,

:12:34.:12:37.

as Prime Minister and as Chancellor, always thought that work was the way

:12:38.:12:41.

out of poverty. For many people it is. If work only takes you into the

:12:42.:12:47.

working poor and you need tax credits to top it up, and if you

:12:48.:12:51.

earn extra bed tax credits go and it is not worth your while, then we

:12:52.:12:58.

have a working poor problem. What you said, if I understood correctly,

:12:59.:13:02.

was that you thought aid for working people here is low by comparison

:13:03.:13:06.

with other countries, which it certainly is not. The one thing the

:13:07.:13:09.

Government has announced and has started to do is to increase the

:13:10.:13:14.

minimum wage, which they call a living wage. The minimum wage will

:13:15.:13:18.

be increased substantially. My prediction is that the main effect

:13:19.:13:22.

will be to attract vast numbers of immigrants, because our pay is not

:13:23.:13:25.

low by comparison with other countries. If you take the European

:13:26.:13:31.

Union, within which we have free movement, Romanians, Bulgarians,

:13:32.:13:33.

Spaniards for that matter are paid less than British people. But if you

:13:34.:13:39.

think the problem is the amount working people are paid, that is

:13:40.:13:42.

precisely what the Government has tackled in a way that no previous

:13:43.:13:47.

government has set out to do. Have previous welfare reforms been a

:13:48.:13:53.

mistake? People who should not have been put on social security are then

:13:54.:13:59.

driven off at some stage when their lives have been destroyed by Social

:14:00.:14:05.

Security. What happens with Social Security is that it really destroys

:14:06.:14:10.

lives. I am not just talking about facts and figures but members of my

:14:11.:14:14.

own family who have been caught in this terrible world, where you give

:14:15.:14:19.

people Social Security, which you think is a good idea because you

:14:20.:14:24.

don't want them back in the 1930s on the streets. But the real thing is

:14:25.:14:28.

that it destroys their chance of ever moving and becoming a Michael

:14:29.:14:30.

Portillo or whatever. But poverty was much worse when we

:14:31.:14:42.

didn't have Social Security. I was born in abject poverty before the

:14:43.:14:48.

days, before the welfare state, but the point is, it isn't so much

:14:49.:14:53.

comparing it, it's about the fact that what happens when you say to a

:14:54.:14:58.

person, you don't have to look after yourself. Somebody else will, with

:14:59.:15:05.

the state or whether it's a religion or somebody else, and that really

:15:06.:15:09.

does destroy the chances of getting out of poverty. The real problem is

:15:10.:15:13.

that most of the people on the left and the liberal ascendancy really

:15:14.:15:19.

don't like the idea of social mobility. They don't like the fact

:15:20.:15:26.

that there is a lot of people who aspire to get out of poverty,

:15:27.:15:32.

because the Polly Toynbees and the Wyn Joness and all these people,

:15:33.:15:36.

what they really want is they want people to stay where they are,

:15:37.:15:40.

because they are better with the poor than with people who get in and

:15:41.:15:50.

join their cast. What supports John's point of view is that the

:15:51.:15:53.

welfare budget has gone up and up every year, faster than most

:15:54.:15:58.

European countries, and yet there are still plenty of people saying

:15:59.:16:01.

that poverty is worse than ever. But that isn't true. More and more

:16:02.:16:08.

people are caught in poverty. Whether it is true or not, it must

:16:09.:16:12.

suggest that spending more money isn't the solution. Polly Toynbee

:16:13.:16:19.

isn't here to defend herself. Over 60 years, the love -- the welfare

:16:20.:16:26.

state, it started before the Second World War, but it would be took off

:16:27.:16:31.

in the late 40s, so we have got over 60 years of it, 70 years. There is a

:16:32.:16:37.

consensus that we need a welfare state, but as it has developed as

:16:38.:16:41.

they been an element in which the welfare state, rather than solving

:16:42.:16:48.

poverty, traps people in poverty? Without doubt, it does track people

:16:49.:16:52.

in poverty, but I don't recognise everything you are saying, John. I

:16:53.:17:00.

see my constituents, single parents who want to go back to work, maybe

:17:01.:17:06.

get some training, maybe go to university, they can't keep the

:17:07.:17:10.

benefits they pay the bills, but they want to better themselves and

:17:11.:17:14.

get on but the system isn't flexible enough. We talk about welfare as if

:17:15.:17:18.

it is all for working people. The vast bulk of it goes to older

:17:19.:17:25.

people. I think we must take the two too often, and it is working people

:17:26.:17:28.

who have borne the brunt of the cuts. -- we mistake the two. We need

:17:29.:17:36.

to see a rebalancing of that situation. We must end there. Are

:17:37.:17:44.

you going to join the House of Lords? I am not, because that is all

:17:45.:17:49.

about today and I am about tomorrow. I am there to dismantle poverty. It

:17:50.:17:51.

already tomorrow. Now, it's late - SNP

:17:52.:17:52.

love triangle late - But don't let your urge

:17:53.:17:55.

for no-strings independence with a tartan jihadist send

:17:56.:17:57.

you to bed, because waiting Britain's leading conspiracy

:17:58.:18:00.

theorist, author David Icke is here to reveal the dark

:18:01.:18:05.

truth about This Week. And if you believe we're

:18:06.:18:09.

a cunning plot to deceive On the Twit-Te-Woo, the Fleecebook,

:18:10.:18:11.

SnapNumpty, the Massager and Gordon Brown's Scottish Web

:18:12.:18:15.

Sphere... Now, with speculation

:18:16.:18:22.

mounting as to the identity of the next James Bond,

:18:23.:18:24.

a bookmaker was forced to suspend betting this week

:18:25.:18:27.

after a substantial amount was placed on the actor

:18:28.:18:29.

Tom Hiddleston. Exactly the same thing

:18:30.:18:30.

happened here on This Week, when Diane Abbott left the show

:18:31.:18:33.

and a huge wager was Michael, I hope you've not spent

:18:34.:18:35.

all your winnings yet. Here's Rawnsley, Andrew Rawnsley,

:18:36.:18:41.

licensed to thrill, with his political

:18:42.:18:47.

round-up of the week. Just the usual, trying

:18:48.:18:57.

to save the world from crazed megalomaniacs and their devilish

:18:58.:19:26.

schemes to achieve And can you ask Q to have a look

:19:27.:19:30.

in his cupboard of gadgets? I need some tranquilliser gas

:19:31.:19:37.

cunningly disguised Q, Rawnsley wants more toys

:19:38.:19:39.

to play with, again. David Cameron has refused to retract

:19:40.:19:52.

what he said about your He says they were stupid,

:19:53.:19:55.

they were divisive Number one, I'm not stupid, OK,

:19:56.:19:59.

I can tell you that right now. In terms of divisive,

:20:00.:20:07.

I don't think I'm divisive. I am a unifier, unlike our

:20:08.:20:11.

President now. When I made the statement six months

:20:12.:20:14.

ago, and there was a clamour only by the politicians, millions

:20:15.:20:17.

of people were calling in saying, Donald Trump, the Man

:20:18.:20:22.

With The Golden Rug. Ah, Miss Green, I barely recognised

:20:23.:20:32.

you with your clothes on. Usual formula, then,

:20:33.:20:37.

cheesy one-liners, miraculous Yes, this film does contain some

:20:38.:20:39.

Boris Johnson. This discussion is bedevilled

:20:40.:20:47.

by all sorts of artificial media twit storms and hysteria

:20:48.:20:51.

of one kind or another. There is a very good argument

:20:52.:20:55.

against the lack of Over the last 2000 years,

:20:56.:20:57.

people have made repeated attempts The EU is a very different project

:20:58.:21:02.

but it is profoundly anti-democratic and that's why you should

:21:03.:21:07.

vote Leave on June 23rd. Hold on a minute, Boris,

:21:08.:21:11.

you can't complain when people It was you who brought the Nazi

:21:12.:21:13.

dictator into the debate I don't really understand what Boris

:21:14.:21:19.

is up to, frankly. I know him, I like him,

:21:20.:21:30.

he makes me laugh. And yet yesterday, about Hitler,

:21:31.:21:33.

I find that deeply disturbing. I think the strain of the campaign

:21:34.:21:38.

is beginning to tell on him. The Tory civil war on Europe is now

:21:39.:21:41.

more vicious than the blade in Rosa Kleb's shoe,

:21:42.:21:53.

or the teeth on Jaws. Getting it under control would be

:21:54.:21:57.

beyond Her Majesty's top agent, The Prime Minister tried

:21:58.:22:01.

to distract his party by despatching the Queen down to Parliament to read

:22:02.:22:09.

out a legislative Northern powerhouse,

:22:10.:22:11.

Anti-Extremism Bill, surveillance legislation,

:22:12.:22:18.

prison reform. That cocktail of already familiar

:22:19.:22:22.

ingredients left a few shaken We will scrutinise carefully

:22:23.:22:24.

proposals to give prison It seems the policies of this

:22:25.:22:34.

Government have been to give greater That is, the consequences

:22:35.:22:41.

of overcrowding prisons and cutting one third of dedicated

:22:42.:22:47.

prison officer positions. We welcome the proposals

:22:48.:22:51.

to give greater time for education and reform

:22:52.:22:55.

and reduce reoffending rates. I may be losing, but you know

:22:56.:22:59.

diamonds are forever. But don't last quite as long

:23:00.:23:03.

as a speech by the Labour leader. David Cameron responded

:23:04.:23:07.

by suggesting that his rival's I have to say, Mr Speaker,

:23:08.:23:09.

I think there is more chance of the Labour Party calling it a day

:23:10.:23:15.

when he completes his And, Mr Speaker, I have been

:23:16.:23:18.

doing my researches, too. And it may come sooner

:23:19.:23:22.

than people think. He recently placed an advert

:23:23.:23:25.

for a job in his office and it said, "Fixed term contract for the period

:23:26.:23:28.

only that Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party,

:23:29.:23:33.

or until the 31st of December 2016, Tempting fate a bit

:23:34.:23:37.

there, Mr Cameron. If the Tory leader loses

:23:38.:23:45.

the referendum, he will be the one You do know that some women

:23:46.:23:48.

think all you 00 agents I am very sensitive

:23:49.:23:54.

to that, Miss Green. I have been on my gender awareness

:23:55.:24:01.

training. If you think the 00s

:24:02.:24:05.

are sexist dinosaurs, what about the henchmen of Ukip

:24:06.:24:07.

number one, Nigel Farage? Did you catch Neil Hamilton

:24:08.:24:12.

insulting female Welsh nationalists? These two ladies have just made

:24:13.:24:18.

themselves political And what a gruesome prospect

:24:19.:24:20.

that must be. Hmm, I wouldn't exactly

:24:21.:24:30.

describe him as "coalitious". I don't suppose there's much danger

:24:31.:24:35.

of the Green Party bidding for world domination

:24:36.:24:38.

in the foreseeable future. This week, Natalie Bennett,

:24:39.:24:41.

their leader, announced I went back to the proposals I put

:24:42.:24:44.

forward when I stood I said I wanted to grow the party,

:24:45.:24:50.

make us a truly national party, to win our place

:24:51.:24:55.

in the national debates. And I thought, I've

:24:56.:24:59.

achieved those things. Do you know what, Miranda,

:25:00.:25:03.

she has me converted. It's time to consider my carbon

:25:04.:25:05.

footprint, the exotic locations, Do you fancy a glass

:25:06.:25:09.

of carrot juice Special thanks to the wonderful team

:25:10.:25:20.

at Les Ambassadeurs Club in Mayfair. And here to cash in her chips,

:25:21.:25:37.

This Week's very own femme fatale, And the man many people are calling

:25:38.:25:42.

"The New Nicola Sturgeon" - future SNP leader and possible

:25:43.:25:46.

First Minister of Scotland, Michael, as we sit here tonight, how

:25:47.:26:07.

would you categorise the standing of Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne in the

:26:08.:26:13.

parliamentary Conservative Party? Well, there was an MP today who was

:26:14.:26:18.

lamenting the divisive nature of the campaign as it's been conducted by

:26:19.:26:24.

number ten, and I think that is the crucial point. Andrew Rawnsley a

:26:25.:26:28.

moment ago was saying that Prime Minister will be in peril if he

:26:29.:26:32.

loses the referendum. I think he is in peril if he wins it. He has

:26:33.:26:36.

announced he isn't going to run for the general election. He is a very

:26:37.:26:41.

divisive leader. Some people would say, since we are not going to fight

:26:42.:26:44.

the next election with him, why would we wait for three years to

:26:45.:26:48.

change the leader? At the moment, he has the upper hand, he is the Prime

:26:49.:26:53.

Minister and he can bully people, but I think it is a short term

:26:54.:26:57.

policy and it potentially has its comeuppance. I don't know what the

:26:58.:27:00.

numbers are in the Parliamentary party but I think it is a reasonable

:27:01.:27:07.

bet that about half the party are Leave rather than Remain, and that

:27:08.:27:12.

is a lot of people to offend in one go. Because this referendum debate

:27:13.:27:16.

has been kind of dominated by Tory civil war, that is where the

:27:17.:27:20.

dynamics of the argument have overwhelmingly taken place, is this

:27:21.:27:24.

referendum grabbing the country as a whole yet? I don't think so. I don't

:27:25.:27:31.

hear people talking about the referendum, but I did do Question

:27:32.:27:35.

Time a few weeks ago, your warm up act, and it was interesting because

:27:36.:27:39.

the driver who took me there from the station told me that one of the

:27:40.:27:43.

things that was going to be invoked for Brexit was the imposition of

:27:44.:27:49.

strict bananas. -- going to make him vote. I said, you are journalistic

:27:50.:27:53.

gold. I haven't met anybody who still believes that! You don't think

:27:54.:28:01.

it is grabbing the nation yet? I don't get a sense that people are

:28:02.:28:06.

engaged by it. I think they are scumed by it. -- scunnered by the

:28:07.:28:19.

vacuous level of the debate. I think it has got very nasty. I noticed the

:28:20.:28:23.

Prime Minister saying he wouldn't debate with Boris because he didn't

:28:24.:28:28.

want it to turn into a Conservative psychodrama. They are trying to

:28:29.:28:32.

avoid blue on blue. That may be right, but he did call the

:28:33.:28:38.

referendum. Exactly. You could say that about the Germans, but they did

:28:39.:28:45.

start it. And I mean by this, the Prime Minister started it by calling

:28:46.:28:52.

the referendum. Absolutely, but also he has been trying to replay the

:28:53.:28:56.

general election, safety first strategy, fear of something. Just

:28:57.:29:04.

like the election. And an economic mood across the world, quite bleak

:29:05.:29:09.

at the moment. Why don't they call it how it is on the kind of things

:29:10.:29:16.

that Boris is saying? I listened to that excruciating interview with

:29:17.:29:19.

Chris Grayling yesterday morning when he was asked if he found it

:29:20.:29:24.

distasteful that Boris had made this comparison with Hitler and the

:29:25.:29:29.

Nazis. Instead of saying, yes, it was really off-putting, next, and

:29:30.:29:34.

move on, he had this curious verbal dance with John Humphreys. I think

:29:35.:29:39.

that puts voters off. You ought to try interviewing him... I don't

:29:40.:29:46.

agree that people are not thinking about it, having spent the last four

:29:47.:29:50.

or five months canvassing, not just for Police and Crime Commissioners,

:29:51.:29:56.

elections locally, but also asking the EU question. People know it is

:29:57.:29:59.

coming and they have to start thinking about it. My concern about

:30:00.:30:04.

this whole blue on blue row is not just bad this issue is bigger, far

:30:05.:30:10.

bigger than who end up leading the Tory party, it is that, unless a

:30:11.:30:15.

strong Labour case is heard by people, we will not get the Labour

:30:16.:30:18.

vote out, which is crucial for Remain. I think there is a good hope

:30:19.:30:24.

you will not get the Labour vote out. Can I have a go at the Boris

:30:25.:30:27.

point? The problem with the European Union

:30:28.:30:36.

is that it is an ideology, and they can be dangerous unless they are

:30:37.:30:40.

democratically restrained. There is no democratic process in the

:30:41.:30:44.

European Union and no plan for a democratic process. That is why this

:30:45.:30:50.

ideology is dangerous. Ask the Greek people, who by their millions have

:30:51.:30:54.

been put out of work, the Spanish who have been put out of work in

:30:55.:30:57.

their millions because the ideology dictated that all the countries had

:30:58.:31:02.

to be in the euro. The greatest example I saw in the United Kingdom

:31:03.:31:07.

was Michael Heseltine, who insisted on interest rates going from 10% up

:31:08.:31:14.

to 15% in September 1992, because the ideology dictated that we should

:31:15.:31:17.

remain in the exchange rate mechanism. It did not matter that

:31:18.:31:23.

mortgages would rise by 50% that day, because the eye geology

:31:24.:31:31.

dictated it. Where do the Nazis come in? I have not introduced them.

:31:32.:31:37.

Ideology unrestrained by democracy is dangerous. That is coherent and

:31:38.:31:43.

fair. It is not my take but it is coherent and fair. What every

:31:44.:31:48.

reasonable Person objects to is the theatrical and distasteful use of

:31:49.:31:53.

the Nazis. I do not want another TV programme dominated by it. I have

:31:54.:31:57.

done too many and I am bored with it. It seems to me that if you are

:31:58.:32:01.

right that the referendum is not grabbing the public mood in the way

:32:02.:32:07.

the Scottish referendum did, in an unprecedented way, the degree of the

:32:08.:32:13.

public participating, that is good news for the Leeds side, because the

:32:14.:32:17.

lower the turnout, the more likely they are to win. Leave. Absolutely.

:32:18.:32:25.

Some of the strange things they have started to say, they have started to

:32:26.:32:30.

raise this phantom second referendum. You wonder whether they

:32:31.:32:34.

are cynically trying to depress the turnout, because the fewer people

:32:35.:32:38.

that vote, the greater their chances. I don't think they are that

:32:39.:32:43.

clever. The one thing that is clear in the Leave campaign is that it

:32:44.:32:47.

stumbles from pillar to post. The remaining campaign is like a

:32:48.:32:52.

juggernaut, bringing in the IMF. What will the turnout be? Very low,

:32:53.:33:02.

I think. Old people who are anti-European will be motivated. Not

:33:03.:33:07.

anti-European, but anti-European Union. Fun anti-European, too. They

:33:08.:33:15.

will be motivated to turnout. The vote in Scotland will be higher than

:33:16.:33:21.

in the rest of the UK. That is good for your side. And for democracy in

:33:22.:33:26.

general. I think the turnout might be healthy in the end. I think

:33:27.:33:33.

safety first will win. No idea, but we are busting a gut to get young

:33:34.:33:38.

people registered to vote. Lots of students will have finished exams

:33:39.:33:41.

and be going home and that is a big focus for the Remain campaign. I

:33:42.:33:47.

don't think anybody has any idea which is why the opinion polls mean

:33:48.:33:50.

nothing. If you don't know the turnout, you don't know anything. I

:33:51.:33:56.

think it will be less than the general election, which was 66%. The

:33:57.:34:01.

75 referendum was lower than the two elections in 74. Anything below 60

:34:02.:34:09.

helps Leave, big-time. Anything above 60 helps Remain. Thank you.

:34:10.:34:14.

And whatever happened to Biggie, Tupac and Diane Abbott -

:34:15.:34:19.

or the far left's eulogising of Venezuela's socialist revolution?

:34:20.:34:23.

The world is full of mystery, intrigue and strange goings-on.

:34:24.:34:26.

For example, in last year's Labour leadership election,

:34:27.:34:28.

4.5% of Labour members and supporters voted for Liz Kendall

:34:29.:34:33.

- an unexplained phenomenon that still puzzles many of us

:34:34.:34:36.

And that's why we're putting conspiracy theories

:34:37.:34:43.

Is BoGo paranoid, or was the Prime Minister plotting to keep

:34:44.:34:56.

It is the biggest stitch-up since the Bayeux tapestry.

:34:57.:35:02.

A leaked letter this week suggests Call-Me-Dave was planning

:35:03.:35:04.

his campaign in secret, while publicly saying

:35:05.:35:06.

he was prepared to leave the EU, during his renegotiation.

:35:07.:35:11.

In a debate already dominated by hyperbole, both sides are now

:35:12.:35:14.

accusing each other of peddling conspiracy theories.

:35:15.:35:18.

So was the Chancellor simply trying to discredit his rivals by claiming

:35:19.:35:21.

The next thing we know, the Leave camp will be accusing us

:35:22.:35:27.

of faking the moon landings, kidnapping Shergar and

:35:28.:35:29.

covering up the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.

:35:30.:35:36.

JFK, the moon landings, Area 51 - some conspiracy theories

:35:37.:35:39.

are certainly out there, but who says a cover-up has

:35:40.:35:42.

Calls are now mounting for an enquiry into the 1984 Battle

:35:43.:35:48.

of Orgreave, while the victims of the Hillsborough tragedy

:35:49.:35:50.

were certainly conspired against by the powers that be.

:35:51.:35:57.

He's been called a lot more than a conspiracy

:35:58.:35:59.

You know, 2000 years ago, had a guy called Jesus sat

:36:00.:36:06.

here and said these same things, you would still be laughing.

:36:07.:36:10.

Though sold-out stadium lectures don't lie.

:36:11.:36:12.

David Icke knows how to grab your attention.

:36:13.:36:15.

But even if our lives are affected by invisible forces,

:36:16.:36:18.

the question remains, is the word "conspiracy"

:36:19.:36:22.

Would you describe yourself as a conspiracy theorist? Well, I look at

:36:23.:36:44.

what officialdom tells us is happening and I check it out. And if

:36:45.:36:49.

you can back that up with information, it is not a theory. And

:36:50.:36:54.

there are situations where you think, this could be this or that,

:36:55.:36:58.

that could be happening. That is a theory. But much of it is backed up

:36:59.:37:03.

by hard factual information. Interestingly, when you look at the

:37:04.:37:08.

dictionary definition of the very word "Conspiracy", we are drowning

:37:09.:37:14.

in them. One, the action of plotting or conspiring. That is happening all

:37:15.:37:20.

the time. Give me an example of a conspiracy. Ironically, we had

:37:21.:37:25.

George Osborne this week trying to ridicule conspiracies involving the

:37:26.:37:28.

EU by likening them to believing in the Loch Ness Monster. And in the

:37:29.:37:33.

same week, we have the Daily Mail exposing the Prime Minister for

:37:34.:37:39.

conspiring, in effect, with big business, to frighten the public

:37:40.:37:44.

into staying in the EU while publicly, to Parliament as well,

:37:45.:37:51.

saying that he would come out if the negotiations, renegotiations did not

:37:52.:37:57.

work. That is a conspiracy. Is it? Is it not politicians just doing the

:37:58.:38:01.

time-honoured thing of being less than honest? Well, if you are

:38:02.:38:05.

telling the public that you will have the option of coming out if you

:38:06.:38:10.

do not renegotiate with the EU the way you want, and you then don't do

:38:11.:38:15.

that, and at the same time you are telling the public in Parliament

:38:16.:38:18.

that, you are working with big business behind-the-scenes already

:38:19.:38:24.

to frighten the public into staying in. Even though the renegotiation is

:38:25.:38:28.

not finished. That is a conspiracy to mislead the public. What other

:38:29.:38:35.

conspiracies should we worry about? Well, what we are looking at all the

:38:36.:38:42.

time our conspiracy after conspiracy coming to light, while the idea and

:38:43.:38:50.

the very word conspiracy is demonised. For instance, we have a

:38:51.:38:54.

situation with this Chilcot Inquiry where we are going to see, indeed

:38:55.:39:00.

the information has a ready come out, that the Prime Minister of the

:39:01.:39:05.

time, Tony Blair and George Bush and the administrations, lied to us to

:39:06.:39:15.

justify an invasion of Iraq. And that is a conspiracy that has cost

:39:16.:39:21.

the lives of staggering numbers of people and created an ongoing

:39:22.:39:24.

catastrophe that is still going on. And let's not forget this, the very

:39:25.:39:30.

same people, not just the same agencies, the same people that told

:39:31.:39:36.

us there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq when they knew

:39:37.:39:39.

there were not, those very same people gave us the official story of

:39:40.:39:46.

9/11. So was 9/11 a conspiracy? Of course. Who was behind it? Well, in

:39:47.:39:55.

the time we have here, it is very difficult, but there is a network

:39:56.:39:58.

that works through government agencies, through organisations like

:39:59.:40:04.

the CIA, etc, to push an agenda on the world which is unfolding by the

:40:05.:40:08.

day. My books in the 1990s laid out what this agenda was, and those

:40:09.:40:16.

books are now being read on the television news in changes in

:40:17.:40:19.

society and laws coming in. This is the point. The mainstream media has

:40:20.:40:25.

accepted that those characters, those same characters lied about

:40:26.:40:31.

Iraq, but will not question in any way the same people's version of

:40:32.:40:36.

9/11. They are journalists. It's their job. Do you still think the

:40:37.:40:41.

royal family worship shifting lizards? Yes, I do. And you want us

:40:42.:40:49.

to believe 9/11 is a conspiracy. Other not undermine it? No. I can

:40:50.:40:57.

see that you might question 9/11 but if you think Buckingham Palace is

:40:58.:41:01.

inhabited by lizards... It is not that simple. There is a whole big

:41:02.:41:07.

back story before you get to what I am saying. If you deliver it in one

:41:08.:41:11.

line, the world is run by lizards, you meet on one level, that crazy,

:41:12.:41:16.

reflex action. But when you see the back story and the evidence to

:41:17.:41:21.

support it, ancient and modern, you see that throwaway line in a

:41:22.:41:26.

completely different context. Have you ever believed in a conspiracy

:41:27.:41:33.

theory? No, I haven't. But I think David Aaronovitch is interesting on

:41:34.:41:39.

this. He says that, paradoxically, we keep obsessing about conspiracies

:41:40.:41:43.

because somehow it is actually reassuring to think that there is

:41:44.:41:50.

some rate network of purpose, when in fact the world is chaotic and

:41:51.:41:56.

random and terrible things happen. And we cannot get our heads round

:41:57.:42:02.

it. As a journalist, I would love to believe in conspiracy theories

:42:03.:42:05.

because they are better stories, but enormous everything I have

:42:06.:42:09.

investigated, Kockott is a better explanation. People put a lot of

:42:10.:42:14.

work into conspiracy theories, but I think they are intellectually lazy.

:42:15.:42:20.

I think people just do not want to get their head around the way things

:42:21.:42:25.

actually work. That said, firstly, a lot of people are gullible about

:42:26.:42:29.

conspiracies. The police were gullible about the Downing Street

:42:30.:42:35.

paedophile ring. On the other hand, there clearly was a conspiracy over

:42:36.:42:39.

Hillsborough, and over 28 years people denied there was a conspiracy

:42:40.:42:46.

but there was. My last book is 1000 pages. Have you read any of my

:42:47.:42:52.

books? No. How do you know it is intellectually lazy? I wasn't

:42:53.:42:57.

talking about you, I meant members of the public who immediately latch

:42:58.:43:03.

onto a conspiracy as the most reasonable explanation of a simple

:43:04.:43:08.

situation. How do we know you are not a conspiracy to make us believe

:43:09.:43:13.

in conspiracies? People must believe what they like. It is simple. You

:43:14.:43:18.

look at information and make a decision on what you think of it.

:43:19.:43:24.

But if no one is investigating what governments and authorities are

:43:25.:43:26.

saying with a view to whether it is true or not, then what chance have

:43:27.:43:33.

people got to see information that they can then make a decision on?

:43:34.:43:38.

All that they are getting is the mainstream repeat, repeat, repeat

:43:39.:43:44.

version of everything. In my career, everything I know has been

:43:45.:43:47.

investigated and we go by the facts. What are you up to these days? I

:43:48.:43:53.

have a new book out and I am going on a world tour call over the world.

:43:54.:43:58.

That shows how many people are looking at this.

:43:59.:44:01.

But not for us, because it's Doncaster Power List night

:44:02.:44:05.

at Lou Lou's, and we're off to dance the night away with the real

:44:06.:44:09.

movers-and-shakers - and Ed Miliband.

:44:10.:44:10.

But we leave you tonight with an exclusive.

:44:11.:44:12.

Despite the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled today upholding

:44:13.:44:14.

the injunction that prevents us naming a celebrity couple involved

:44:15.:44:17.

in an illicit affair, we are prepared to challenge that

:44:18.:44:19.

decision and reveal the identity of the three people involved.

:44:20.:44:22.

We realise this might mean we go to jail, but viewers have a right

:44:23.:44:25.

to know what these sleazy degenerates have been getting up

:44:26.:44:27.

Nighty night, don't let the menage a trois bite.

:44:28.:44:34.

# One, two, three Come fly with me

:44:35.:44:36.

# One, two, three You, me and he

:44:37.:44:49.

# Would you like to threesome with me?#

:44:50.:45:34.

I think they'll take it this year. Yeah. Yeah.

:45:35.:45:35.

I think we're in for a real cracker.

:45:36.:45:36.

This could be the game of the season.

:45:37.:45:39.

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