30/06/2016 This Week

Tonight on Eurotrash, Dave had to say goodbye to his European buddies.

They thought they would have Boris Johnson to centre Coventry, but he

saw through their little plan and pulled out. In fact, the race to be

next Tory leader is throwing up a smorgasbord of surprises. Radio host

Iain Dale is very excited. Boris may have been knifed in the back but the

Conservative Party has served up five decent candidates.

Jeremy Corbyn still has his job and has successfully filled his Shadow

Cabinet with a new look crude. Do they look like a cool lot, or a

clueless bunch? Andrew Rawnsley buys shares in apocalyptic commentary. In

the aftermath of the European referendum the Conservative Party

and the Labour Party competed to see which could unleash unprecedented

chaos. Both one. And is that David Starkey with the

big hand of history? How do you fancy that on your shoulder? Amidst

the finger-pointing, history is surely going to remember this week

as the time that written lost its collective sanity. Indeed this, and

this Week, could well be the least surreal TV you seen for some time.

Don't be down, Boris won't be coming to a pie shop near you for a while.

Every cloud and all that. Why worry? Evenin' all, welcome to This Week,

and let me make clear what I've I do not want to

I'm not equipped to present Question Time.

There are lots of talented people who could do it, but count me out.

Whatever posters you put up on your wall, do not

There are people far better than me who could and should

You'd like me to present Question Time?

Speaking of Michael Gove - and worthless assurances -

I'm joined on the sofa tonight by a divided Britain that

Think of them as the Remain Humble and the Leave Me Alone of late

I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson

and #sadmanonatrain Michael "I'm too Brexy for my shirt" Portillo.

It is a special of the week, so let's have reflections. My

reflection is that we have never had a more professional political class,

people who will devote their life to professional politics, and the level

of incompetence has increased with it. David Cameron had no need to

call the referendum. He did it purely for party political reasons.

He was worried about Ukip which I think at the time had no members of

Parliament and now has one. That is how good his political instinct was.

His stock in trade was short-term, so he did not think through the

consequences. He lost himself his job, split his party from top to

bottom, took Britain out of the European Union, which he thought

would be a catastrophe, all because he was too clever by half and this

was his cynical view of the world. He did not like the European Union

but was too frightened to leave and thought the British people would be

too frightened to leave. On the other side, the Labour Party,

governed by professional politicians, devised a system for

electing its leader which would enable the members of the country to

elect someone in whom the members of Parliament have no confidence

whatsoever. That was a perfectly foreseeable situation. I think it

was reformed under Ed Miliband, and it has produced this complete

catastrophe. As a postscript, had Boris Johnson been elected leader of

the Conservative Party, we would have had a similar disaster,

although at least the Conservative Party, the two people who go before

the country must be nominated by MPs. These are the results of the

most professional class politicians we have ever had. Is the programme

over, or do I have time... Thanks for watching. See you next week. My

moment follows on from what Michael was saying. The Prime Minister

resigned at 8:15am on Friday. The pound is sinking, pensioners'

annuities have lost value, we lost our triple-A rating, Scotland might

be leaving the United Kingdom. In Parliament on Monday, he came in as

if he was attending a local fair in his constituency. You have to admire

it. But the incredible thing is that Parliament was so kind to him. With

all that was going on you would have thought in Parliament that it was

just another day at the office. It struck me as bizarre. Well, it will

probably surprise you but we will talk more about all of this. Either

that, or the situation now Bay near. -- in Albania.

Now, we may get by with a little help from our friends,

but Boris Johnson is probably hoping he picks better ones in future

after fellow Brexiteer - and supposed sidekick in

his leadership bid - Michael Gove took the Go out

of BoGo and decided he should be Prime Minister instead.

Action that prompted a shock announcement from Boris

that he would not now stand for the party leadership.

Gove - the man who claimed he would write on parchment

in his own blood that he didn't want to be leader -

claimed his friend was not capable of leading the party and the country

And what of the five candidates who are still

Here's LBC presenter Iain Dale with his take of the week.

# All the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers

# All the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers...#

It's been a tumultuous week, which has certainly given me a lot to talk

about, and the latest plot twist, the ambush of BoJo, has

electrified the Westminster media this morning.

But this ambush doesn't feel spontaneous.

It has all the hallmarks of a particularly dastardly plotline

from Game Of Thrones - a fan of which just happens to be

the recently announced leadership candidate,

the man who put the Go in BoGo, Michael Gove.

I think it was Boris's article in the Telegraph on Monday

It was all over the place on the single market and,

strangely enough, it was edited by his fellow Leave campaigner,

Support started ebbing away at that point among his fellow MPs

and I was cycling past Downing Street -

on a Boris bike, of course - and saw people holding placards

This is a level of unpopularity that I don't think Boris has

# All the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers...#

But, whilst BoJo was undoubtedly knifed

in the back, he didn't have to fall on his sword.

But nothing became the man like the manner in which

When I was David Davis's chief of staff in the 2005 leadership

contest, I well remember David Cameron's electrifying

speech at the party conference in Blackpool.

We could immediately feel support draining away from us.

Boris was wise to sense this tide change.

It's probably the most statesman-like thing he's ever done.

It should guarantee him a top post in the next government,

One of my callers was railing against Gove's plotting and Boris's

departure, accusing him of leaving the Tories without

In spite of the Tories seemingly using House of Cards as a training

manual in recent weeks, I think they've found five

None of whom went to Eton, none of whom were in the Bullingdon Club

and all of whom are firmly in the one nation Tory camp.

I think all of them could lead the party through the choppy waters

of the next three years onto election victory in 2020 or,

And from professional broadcasting at Classic FM

to amateur dramatics here on This Week, welcome Iain.

Did Michael Gove stab Boris Johnson in the back, or the front? Both,

with two knives. It appears he did not get hold of Boris Johnson to

tell him what he was about to do. His camp say that he tried, but not

very hard, it seems. You can normally get hold of someone if you

want to. That is quite revealing. I think Michael Gove in his interview

with Laura Kuenssberg earlier made a lot of the points that a lot of the

Tories would have made and Michael has been making for ten years about

Boris's qualifications. What changed in the last 48 hours, or was it

planned in advance? I suspect we won't find that out until the Sunday

papers when the full story comes out. There is a school of thought

that it was planned by Dominic Cummings, Michael Gove's Prince of

darkness, his equivalent of Peter Mandelson. Apparently Michael Gove

wanted Dominic Cummings to have some involvement in the Boris Johnson

campaign and Boris would not even hand over the list of MPs to Michael

Gove, who was his campaign chairman, and it started from there. It is the

minutiae of politics, to go back on the long expressed view that you are

not fit to be Prime Minister, do not want to be Prime Minister, just

because you cannot get your own man in. There are some very angry MPs in

Westminster tonight. And it could be that Johnson's supporters are very

bitter. But Mr Johnson may have been popular with the Tory faithful but

he was not so popular in the parliamentary party. Do you think Mr

Gove detected a stop Boris campaign? Yes, I think that is possible. I

mentioned that we could have found ourselves in a position where the

Conservative membership elected Boris and the members of Parliament

were only in favour of him in a small minority, which would have

been disastrous. Boris must have smelt that as well. The speed with

which he withdrew, felt that the numbers had disappeared, but let's

get to the big picture, because Ian has already mentioned it. Boris was

unsuitable to be Prime Minister. Whatever Michael Gove has done, I

must say he has enabled me to breathe again. I was in terrible

fear of this country being led by Boris Johnson. He would have been a

disastrous Prime Minister. I entirely agree with Ian that any of

the five, particularly the two front runners, would be a decent Prime

Minister. The two front runners are Theresa and Michael Gove. I don't

agree. I think the front runners are Theresa May and Andreja Klepac some.

-- Andrea Leadsom. Because people see it, in the same way that Ed

Miliband stabbed David Miliband in the back, this is worse. But Ed

Miliband one. People think he stabbed David Cameron in the back

and now Boris Johnson. That shows ruthlessness, which sometimes in

politics you need. The assassin never wins. Ask Michael Heseltine.

The favourite never wins and Theresa May is the favourite. If Michael

Gove wins, the any way he could achieve it would be to convince

people that a Lever has to be Prime Minister in order to negotiate a way

out of the European Union. That is the week sued for Theresa May. I

understand that Andrea Leadsom is there as well, but she is less

well-known. Michael has the secondary argument that he has held

many of the great positions of state and has experience. Allen, Theresa

May has her critics. People do not warm to her, can find her quite

cold. But isn't it remarkable that she has survived six years in the

Home Office? I have to give her that. I criticise her on many things

but that is a remarkable achievement. Herbert Morrison said

the walls of the Home Office are paved with dynamite. It is a funny

analogy, not the floor but the walls. But many political careers

have died in that department and she has come through after six years.

The interesting thing, and I wonder if you can answer this question, is

where the media are in this. Rupert Murdoch, Anthony Hilton, the

economics editor of the Evening Standard said that Murdoch told him

when he was asked why he was anti-European Union, he said, when I

go to Number Ten Downing St they do as I say, but when I go to Brussels

they ignore me. It seems there was an issue here about Murdoch and the

Daily Mail, where their support was going, and that their support

changed from Boris Johnson to Michael Gove. Secondly, you only

need a proposer and second for the Tories, not a whole swathe. Why

didn't Boris stay and slug it out? I agree he would be a disaster. After

the Telegraph article, which was all over the place on the single market,

it led Michael Gove to think, hang on, is he really in favour of total

leaving of the EU? And a lot of hard-core Euro-sceptics on the Tory

benches looked at that and thought, hang on, and I know one or two

contacts of mine went to see Boris. He said, total misunderstanding, as

he often does. Going back to the media, tomorrow's Daily Mail comes

out for Theresa May, which might result in the resignation of Mrs

Michael Gove as a columnist. Who knows. Rupert Murdoch is an admirer

of Michael Gove and has played a role in this, I think. He is not an

admirer of Boris Johnson. He has this Australian antique Etonian view

of things. He loves the Michael Gove narrative of the fishmonger's son.

He has played some role. For those who think there has been an ambush,

and I can accept that, why on earth would Sarah Vine right in that

e-mail about Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch vesture my Baptist I might.

There is a school of thought that Dominic Cummings was behind that.

Let me ask you, does it matter, to Mike Theresa May is the front

runner, I think we agree. It may not be a healthy position, but she is

the front runner. Does it matter that she was a remain, even though

she was a reluctant one. In her case, I think not. If I was

thinking, who do I cast my vote for, my key criterion would be, if that

person is sitting across from Angela Merkel or Vladimir Putin, can I

trust them to be tough and look them in the eye and say No? With Theresa

May commie can absolutely do that. Stephen Crabb is an unknown

quantity. Michael Gove... She could hand the negotiations over to

Michael Gove if he doesn't win. She will not do that, they hate each

other. In any case, not really. The Prime Minister cannot subcontract

the leaving of the European Union. Of course, and a day-to-day basis,

attending the meetings, but all of the crucial decisions must be made

by the Prime Minister. She said at the launch that that is what she

would do. She swings both ways, doesn't she, Theresa May, in a

European sense? Do any of the other three candidates stand a chance?

Stephen Crabb has more support than you might have thought, about 25.

They all stand a chance because we know that things happen. Which of

the five candidates, and we know all five now that the list is closed,

which candidate would Labour find most forbidding -- most formidable?

Theresa May. I think we would wish for Michael Gove. In that European

debate the things he said, the British public are sick of experts,

and then he made that remarkable... I think Theresa May. Five

candidates, none of them went to Eton, four out of five were either

state educated or part state educated. Should Labour be worried?

We should be worried and concerned, of course. We have enough on our

plate. Posh Tories has been a constant theme. Is it coming to an

end? I was in that documentary. John Major, Margaret Thatcher, it is not

the first time the Tories have had... Maybe it is not a trend any

more. Who would make the better Prime Minister, Theresa May or

Michael Gove? I think Michael Gove, because he believes things more

strongly, because it is important and should be a Leave candidate,

because I think he is highly intelligent. I am not saying that

Theresa isn't, for a minute. I would be perfectly happy if Theresa wins.

I think we have a good set of candidates, but Michael Gove would

be my candidate. I am sorry he is unpopular. Didn't he write a book

about you? He did. You could write a book about him. I am not declaring

who I want because I have to interview them all the time. You

wouldn't declare it, would you? I certainly wouldn't. I rest my case.

Thank you very much. Now it's late - Brexy's

Midnight Runners late. So keep popping the pills and stay

wide awake, because waiting in the wings, David Starkey is here

to talk about the hand of history. And if you'd like to be a minor

footnote in the This Week story, you can follow us on the Twitter,

the Fleecebook, SnapNumpty and Gordon Brown's

Intergalactic Web Sphere. Now, after the referendum result,

are you feeling up? Or are you just a little

bit all over the place? A bit like the stock markets

and sterling, really. So we sent the Observer's

Andrew Rawnsley down to the Henley Business School

to find out who's been trading places in a tumultuous

week in Westminster. Sell, sell, sell. Those of you with

long memories will recall that the Tories won last year's election by

promising that they alone could guarantee certainty and stability.

How is that working out for you? Sell, sell, sell everything. A

referendum result that split the country down the middle has

unleashed wild volatility on the financial and political markets. At

7am on Monday morning and anxious world waited to hear from a voice of

authority. The government came up with George Osborne. Britain has the

strongest major advanced economy in the world. I said we had to fix the

roof so that we were prepared for whatever the future held, and thank

goodness we did. Soon afterwards, the pound sunk to a 31- year low

against the dollar. Get rid of them all, I don't want to be holding any

Osbornes. The Chancellor, once a favourite to be the next Prime

Minister, will not even be a candidate for the Tory leadership.

In these turbulent times, at least we can rely on Her Majesty's

opposition, to fall apart. In despair with Jeremy Corbyn, members

of the Shadow Cabinet started to tender their resignation. What a

welcome for the new Labour MP for Tooting on her first day in

Parliament. Let me welcome the new member for Tooting to her place. I

would advise her to keep her mobile phone on, she might be in the Shadow

Cabinet by the end of the day. And I thought I was having a bad day. Our

country is divided, and the country will thank me that the benches in

front of me, nor those behind, for indulging in internal factional

manoeuvring at this time. Jeremy Corbyn told parliament that

he was concerned about job insecurity, as well he might, as

more of his colleagues declared that the party would go bust unless he

quit. I think Jeremy, in the best interests of the party, needs to

stand down. We don't serve our party, or the interests of some of

the poorest in our country and communities by being a Labour Party

that cannot win an election. You are finding this difficult? Yes, yes. I

feel that I have served in the best way I can and today I had to go. It

feels that the collision between the people who are seeking to get rid of

Jeremy Corbyn and the people who are trying to stick in there, in Jeremy

Corbyn's team, risks breaking the Labour Party.

David Cameron headed to Brussels to talk to the EU's Chief Executive 's,

the very first step in what will be an extremely tortuous divorce. He

will be long gone before it is over. To keep things amicable with our

jilted partners, some soothing diplomacy might be in order.

Instead, Nigel Farage turned up at the European Parliament to have a

self glorifying gloat. When I came here 17 years ago and I said that I

wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union,

you all laughed at me. Well, I have to say, you are not laughing now,

are you? You are fighting for the exit, the British people voted in

favour of the exit. Not all of us cried Scotland. We voted to stay.

Please, remember this, Scotland did not let you down. Please, I beg you,

do not let Scotland's down now. Back in Blighty, Labour was now in

complete meltdown. The Labour leader scrabbled together a new board,

invited in the TV cameras so we could start to put faces to the

previously unknown names, and then had second thoughts. I am not sure

this is a great idea. Can we do something later on, OK? At his next

appearance in the Commons, Mr Corbyn demonstrated that a sense of irony

is not in his repertoire. The Prime Minister has two months left. Will

he need a one nation legacy, and will that legacy be the scrapping of

the bedroom tax, the banning of zero-hours contracts, and cancelling

of the cuts to universal credit? He talks about job insecurity and my

two months to go. It might be in my party's interests for him to sit

there, but it is not in the national interest, and I would say, for

heaven 's sake, man, go. Even an overwhelming vote of no confidence

in him by his own MPs was not enough to persuade Mr Corbyn that the game

is up. So now his fate, and perhaps the very existence of the Labour

Party, will be decided in a most bloody leadership battle. Over in

Tory world, the contenders for David Cameron's round started to put

themselves on the market. Theresa May presented herself as a safe

haven. I know I am not a showy politician. I do not tour TV

studios, gossip about people over lunch, go drinking in Parliament's

ours. I do not often wear my heart on my sleeve. I just get on with the

job in front of me. Then Michael Gove shocked everyone, especially

those who believed him when he previously said he would not make a

good Prime Minister, by launching his bid to takeover the party.

During the course of the last few days I have realised that while

Boris does have those special abilities to communicate and reach

out, what he did not have was the capacity to build and to lead to

that team and provide the leadership the country needs at this critical

moment. The markets had anticipated a merger between the leading

Brexiteers, so the Michael Gove declaration triggered a frenzy of

selling of Johnson's, and then this bombshell. He has done what? I must

tell you, my friends, you have waited faithfully for the punch line

of this speech, that having consulted colleagues, and in view of

the circumstances in Parliament, I have concluded that person cannot be

me. So, have we ever had a week like this? I certainly can't remember

one. Go on, surprise me! Andrew Rawnsley trying to keep up -

and down - with events. And we're joined in the studio

by journalist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter Rachel Shabi,

and by the woman many talent-spotters are calling

"the new Angus Robertson", possible future SNP leader and star

of PMQs Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. If that doesn't ruin your career, I

don't know what will. Alan Johnson, this was a provincial England

peasant revolt and Labour was on the wrong side of it. The EU election?

Listen, the EU result was a disaster all round. Cameron managed to get

42% of Conservative supporters. He is the leader of the party. He

called the referendum and only got 42% of his supporters. We always

knew he needed Labour votes. He got them, just not enough. We got 64%,

we needed 70. Your area voted strongly to leave. You are not a

Corbynite. Yvette Cooper's area lost. Indeed, every Brownite,

centrist Labour MP outside of London, their area voted to leave.

Yes, but it was about Europe. If you look at the elections just over a

year ago in most of those seats we had an increased majority, including

mine. The issue of Europe and particularly immigration, because

this became a referendum about immigration. From the time the net

migration figures came out, 333,000, it turned from a debate about Europe

and the economy. Immigration was always there, but one of the

mistakes Boris Johnson made in his article we have just been talking

about on Monday, he said it was nothing to do with immigration. I

think it was. These were people the politicians had ignored, derided,

dismissed, called bigoted if they even raised it. They were Labour

voters in large numbers. And they ignored their party. This was

probably their last chance to give the establishment of the Centre left

and right bloody nose, and they did. That is your assessment. I do not

accept that these people were ignored, that we never talked about

immigration. Sometimes it seemed we talked about nothing else. We have

been debating this issue. Here was the Prime Minister, fighting two

elections on promising to get net migration down to the tens of

thousands. Here was the same Prime Minister and ker-ching people to

vote yes to Europe, having not just failed, but net migration was

118,000. That is why they voted against him. Is this the right

perspective to see it through? Yes, it is the lethal, nation of people

being worried about immigration and despising the elite. -- the lethal

combination. Gordon Brown was the best example during the referendum

campaign when he was asked about immigration. First, he said was a

BBC obsession, then he said it was an obsession of the Sun newspaper.

The only issue was illegal in the, he said. He would not talk about it.

When Jeremy Corbyn said you could not limit immigration if you were

inside the European Union, the Labour Party set upon him for the

cardinal sin of having told the truth. Was it not more than

immigration? Was it not also a revolt of people who have not done

well out of globalisation? In cities like London most people think

overall they have done pretty well out of globalisation. If you go to

the Midlands and further north in England, there are plenty who do not

feel they have done well and inequality has widened and the world

has passed them by. This was their revolt. Yes, I think it was a vote

in the only way that became available to them. General elections

certainly have not helped. To be clear, this is the neglect, the

absolute neglect that has resulted in daily struggles, daily stress,

daily wondering how you are going to get through the week, is a result of

a system started by Thatcher, Thatcherism, perpetuated under new

Labour and continued under the Conservatives, with these horrific

austerity cuts. That is a different issue. The interesting thing... Are

you really blaming this on posterity? Austerity exacerbated a

pre-existing condition began by Thatcherism and continued through

new Labour. The interesting thing about new Labour -- about

immigration is that there is a difference between understanding

that people are concerned about the strains caused by immigration and

wanting to find solutions to that, which would involve the sort of

things Jeremy Corbyn is talking about, which is making sure that

employers do not undercut workers by bringing in cheaper migrant

Labour... That is the legal part of it. We try to have this conversation

about politics but you never allow it, do you? I just put points to

you. I am saying that undercutting Labour, paying below the minimum

wage, is a phenomenon of illegal immigration. It is not, it is a

system by which companies are allowed to undercut local wages with

migrant Labour. The other way to address it is to look at areas that

have been affected by large numbers of migrants, and give them more

funding. That is something the Conservative government cut. The

other way to look at it is to re-skill the population, or you

could embark on major infrastructure projects like housing. These are all

things that have been put forward by Jeremy Corbyn.

Scotland didn't have the revolt on this because you already have your

antiestablishment revolves, replacing the Labour Establishment

in Scotland, so the dynamic was different. The SNP and the

pro-European campaign was hugely positive in Scotland, totally

different to what we have seen down south. As we have heard from Michael

and Alan, the idea of fighting this campaign on the basis of immigration

was never going to be a good thing. We have heard of a fivefold increase

in racist attacks. On LBC today, somebody was crying about the

effects of these attacks on them. We are working with a different

framework, a positive campaign, and what did we have? 62%, every

authority in Scotland, voting to remain. But what happened after

that? Even a week on, the rest of the UK is in absolute shock, feeling

they are without a plan. In Scotland, we are in a completely

different position. Within minutes, Nicola Sturgeon made a statement,

the Cabinet met on Saturday. I don't think anybody can deny that Nicola

has a plan. Will be Scottish Government staged a second

independence referendum before the Brexit process is complete? The

First Minister has made it clear that a number of options are on the

table as none of them are of the table. It is important she made that

point. Beyond that, she has the Scottish Parliament behind her,

which is important. If you have got a plan, does that involve a second

independence referendum before the UK has completed the Brexit process?

That is an option, absolutely. She has been in Brussels having

meetings, unprecedented meetings, I should say. I have been watching

that carefully. I am trying to work out where we are going. She is out

there to get the best possible deal for Scotland. That is posturing, I'm

trying to work out where we are going. Will the plan, if there is

one, and you say that there is, will that secure membership of the EU for

Scotland before you recommend that Scotland leaves the UK? We have a

number of options. You asked me about the plan. Of course, it is not

within our gift to decide what might happen, because there are

negotiations and discussions to take place with the UK Government within

the framework of Brexit and our friends in the EU, with whom we have

had important discussions. If you are going to go for a second

referendum, will be Scottish Government first of all clinch EU

membership for Scotland before you then put Scottish independence

forward? We want to have a clear position in terms of our membership

of the EU, so that is why it is important that the First Minister is

involved in discussions. Whoever that is weird, the people do not

know who that will be... -- with. Will you clinch EU membership, will

you get an agreement with the EU that, if you come out of the UK,

your EU membership as an independent nation is guaranteed before the

referendum was to mark let me remind you back to 2014. Everything should

be seen within context. The people of Scotland voted 62% to remain

within the EU. That is their wish and it is the job of the First

Minister to ensure that. To remain in the EU, we had to vote no in the

Scottish independence referendum. Therefore it is correct that any

vote on independence should be framed within the EU context. I am

trying to get clear what the strategy is, but nobody seems to

know. Nicola Sturgeon knows what her strategy is. But you haven't been

able to tell me. Villa I have answered all of your questions. At a

time when the opportunities for an opposition have never been greater

or more needed, why is the Labour Party as dysfunctional as this? It's

a really good question. Bad enough that the Labour Party has chosen

this moment, when we desperately need a strong and robust opposition

to tear themselves apart, bad enough that they are doing it in such a

calculated way, so they are staggering their resignations so

they dominate the media cycle instead of, for example, either the

mess we are in all the Conservative Party. Bad enough that they are

trying to blame Jeremy Corbyn or having failed to secure a Remain

vote and he got as much of the vote of the SNP did. To top it all off,

this is the worst coup I have ever seen. In what sense? There is no

plan, the leader. Who is the plan, what is the platform, the politics?

They know they don't have the support of the party membership,

which still backs the democratically elected leader, or the unions. If

you are going to orchestrate a coup, make it credible, especially if you

are going to accuse the leader of incompetence. Is this a coup and has

it been badly planned or staged was to mark it was not staged. You

cannot survive as the leader of a political party without the support

of the people you work with most closely. On Europe, I'm afraid,

Jeremy didn't put his heart and soul into it, and there were people in

his office who were absolutely Leavers, they were like Michael,

they thought Europe was a capitalist conspiracy, so the Labour Party was

fighting very hard, and I take my responsibility for not winning. He

has taken no responsibility. Jeremy says, the campaign I was running was

euphoric. He had to kind of ride in and say it should be remain and

reform, so you list all of the things wrong with Europe. That

wasn't what the party was doing. Leaving that aside, Jeremy is never

going to command the support of the people he works with most closely.

You saw Lisa Nandy and Owen Smith, two people who tried really hard.

This isn't about people like me, terrible Blairites, the worst insult

you could possibly used. It isn't racist any more, it is Blairites.

Leave me aside. They have tried really hard, and many people tried

really hard. It ain't working. It's not going to happen. And you can't

instil confidence in a leader through intimidation. If there is a

leadership challenge, and we are still waiting on one, and it goes to

the country in terms of the membership of the Labour Party in

the country, and Mr Corbyn wins, as a poll into Margaret's Times says it

may not be quite as easy as his supporters think, but he is still

ahead, does that not risked splitting the Labour Party? -- in

tomorrow's Times. First, would he be a candidate on the ballot? That

would need to be tested. Let's assume that he is, because natural

justice would assume he would be. I think it should be tested in

because. You are deluding yourselves. He is on the ballot.

That is why you won't read a leadership candidate, because you

know who ever you put up against him is going to lose. On the subject of

delusion, how would you fight a general election when every

interviewer, they would say, why should anyone think that Jeremy

Corbyn should be Prime Minister when 80% of his MPs don't? You have

completely misunderstood the appeal of Jeremy Corbyn and his politics.

You have understood why that kind of politics resonate so strongly with

the population and Labour voters. You would never ask that question if

you had any inkling of why it is so powerful and popular. You have made

me a happy man. We have to move the argument on from who is leading

which party because, at the end of the day, we faced a vote, we have a

result, people are concerned about what this means for jobs for their

own lifestyle. All of this bickering doesn't help anyone. The House of

Commons this week has been unbelievable, watching across the

way the Tories bickering among each other and again, in the Labour

Party, when all that people want is a plan. Everybody has gone, was in

action, Boris was playing cricket, where were they all? You could get

somebody off the street and they'd do a better job. The establishment

had a bloody nose on June 23 so it isn't surprised that Her Majesty 's

government and opposition are in various degrees of disarray. That is

what happened. I am still trying to work out. My advice is, you get your

plan and then come back in. You would have a plan before the vote.

We would be much better off. Now, it's being said a lot that

last week's referendum shows a nation divided -

referenda usually do - and it's always the mantra

of the losers, never the winners. According to the polls,

a majority of those under 50 who voted, voted to remain,

whilst a majority of the over-50s Young folks were said to be

particularly upset. Some felt betrayed by

the older generation. One youngster even tweeted, "I'm not

giving up my seat on the train If only more of them had given up

a few moments of their time, of course, and bothered to vote then

they could have changed the result. And I think it's unfair to pick

on Michael Portillo, who spends most of his life on trains and

deserves to be seated at his age. That's why we've decided to take

a step back, get a sense of perspective - and put the hand

of history in this week's about my belief that Britain

is stronger, safer and better off But the British people have made

a very clear decision Call-me-Dave might prefer to point

to his other achievements, but whether he likes it or not,

history will judge a Prime Minister who wanted to stay in the EU

and achieved the exact opposite. They say all political

careers end in failure, but Churchill is remembered

for leading us to victory. And his self-appointed successor,

Boris Johnson, seemed to have achieved his own personal V

day last week. But was the weight of history

just too much for him? Some people thrive on the idea

that their actions will be dissected I feel the hand of history

upon our shoulder in respect But will Tony Blair's name be

forever associated with peace in Northern Ireland,

or with war in Iraq? The Chilcot report, out next week,

will surely define his place Whether you were Leave or Remain,

are you coming to terms with the thought that the country

might just changed forever? We are joined by historian David

Starkey. Is it clear that David Cameron will go down in history as

the man who lost the European Union? Yes, it also probably Scotland. We

are seeing the possibility of a series of dissolutions, and we are

also seeing them being directly his responsibility. In other words, his

style of management, his casualness, his refusal to think in terms of

serious strategy, his essay crisis style, all of those things.

Powerfully, and I'm sorry, there is a second figure in all of this,

which is his principal councillor, if you like, the Chancellor, George

Osborne. In some ways, Cameron franchised his brain to Osborne and

Osborne was supposed to be the master tactician, this deep,

profound thinker. He is shown to have the profundity of a sheet of

waste paper. Whatever David Cameron feels he might have achieved, or his

supporters... It is as nothing. After all, the only serious

achievement of the government is gay marriage, and that seems to be to be

an appropriately frivolous touch of confetti on the whole thing. Air is

profound doubt over the alleged economic reconstruction and

recovery. It has been achieved at a terrible price. We have talked about

it on this programme before. The way that the cuts have been handled is

disastrous, because you protected education and the health service and

overseas aid, leaving areas which are now absolutely crucial, like the

foreign service, like defence, like the department of trade and

industry, absolutely trade -- start of talent and purpose. In the public

mind, does it stay that way? Historians are fond of revisionism.

I have made my career out of it. In the public mind, but that is

revisionism that tends to stick among historians and people who

follow these things, in the public mind, once you get stuck with

something like this... Once you are branded. It is pretty hard to get

rid of. Blair is the Iraq war, but much more than that, he is the sense

of lying. One of the great problems is, in a fundamental way, we have

not had a change of government since 1997. This is my great fear with

Michael Gove, who you were singing the praises of. He was Blair. He

thought that Blair was a brilliant tactician, a brilliant strategist,

he passionately supported the Iraq war. There is a more fundamental

issue, which I don't think we have dealt with and talking about why the

referendum went the way it is. It was our version of the culture wars.

When Rachel was sitting here attributing the whole event

austerity, I think she failed to understand what was really going on.

Once again, another big charge, and here, I think Michael and I will

vigorously disagree, I think Tory modernisation was completely

misconceived. I want to try and stick to what Mr Cameron's legacy

will or won't be. I think David is right, in a way, that what brands

you, sticks with you, and let's take another auditory Prime Minister,

Lord north, in the public mind, remembered for losing Suez,

Chamberlain for the piece of paper, and now Mr Cameron for losing the

referendum. I think it is inevitable. I think David Cameron

did well to lead a Coalition Government that stabilised the

market after the economic crisis, which was difficult. His Coalition

Government was moderately successful in home policy, disastrous at

foreign policy. This Conservative government has been disastrous

altogether, because it has only really been about the referendum,

which was simply a party political trip, and you can't do that with the

nation's future, particularly if you have a view that a Leave result

would be a catastrophe. Mr Blair won three election victories, two of

them by landslides. No Labour leader has done that in a row. But yet, and

Chilcott next week will probably emphasise this, the thing he seems

most to be associated with is Iraq. That is the legacy. That was 2003,

and he won another election in 2005. Yes, David is right, Iraq will

forever be attached to Tony Blair, in a way that the adventure in Libya

will probably not be associated with David Cameron. That was a minor

chapter. In comparison, it is a minute disaster. Going back to

modernisation, the problem was that it turned the Tory party into a pale

version of new Labour, so this sense of having no choice, this cultural

alienation. I come from the north, it is well concealed but I do, my

family comes from Oldham and Rochdale. I had wind of what is

going on now two or three years ago. My cousin was leading Ukip. She

swore what would happen. Let me try and drag you back to what we are

meant to be talking about, which is legacy. Shame! We say that Tony

Blair will go down in history, or he will be known in history

fundamentally through the prism of Iraq. What about the possibility he

may also go down in history as the last Labour leader to win an

election? I think that is very much on the cards. Listening to the kind

of defence which was offered for Corbyn this evening suggests a

degree of being a juice, a total failure, doesn't it -- obtuse, a

total failure to understand their plight. Labour exemplifies this

tension between, as it were, the voter and the political elite, in

other words, its own MPs, in an absolutely acute form. There are

three tensions, one between Labour members, the other a Labour voter

and another between the MPs, so the Labour Party is like a scene of

medieval torture, being pulled apart in three directions. Historians love

that kind of thing. Plenty to write about in the years to come.

That's your lot for tonight, folks - but not for us, because it's ?350

Million A Week Extra For The NHS Night at Lou Lou's,

although Iain Duncan Smith can't guarantee we'll actually get in.

But we leave you tonight with a man who definitely isn't going anywhere

because he's having such a good time.

And, let's face it, it does look like a lot of fun.

Nighty night, don't let Jeremy Corbyn bite.

Some of your MPs are blaming you for Brexit.

Good morning, nice to see you. Thank you so much for coming today.

# I'm having such a good time, I'm having a ball

# If you want to have a good time just give me a call

# Cos I'm having a good time Yes, I'm having a good time

# I'm a rocket ship on my way to Mars on a collision course

# I am a satellite I'm out of control...#

Good evening. Goodbye. Thank you very much for coming.

MUSIC: What A Wonderful World by Joey Ramone

# I see trees of green... # Just look at that.