Browse content similar to 30/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight on Eurotrash, Dave had to say goodbye to his European buddies. | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
They thought they would have Boris Johnson to centre Coventry, but he | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
saw through their little plan and pulled out. In fact, the race to be | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
next Tory leader is throwing up a smorgasbord of surprises. Radio host | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
Iain Dale is very excited. Boris may have been knifed in the back but the | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
Conservative Party has served up five decent candidates. | :00:50. | :00:57. | |
Jeremy Corbyn still has his job and has successfully filled his Shadow | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Cabinet with a new look crude. Do they look like a cool lot, or a | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
clueless bunch? Andrew Rawnsley buys shares in apocalyptic commentary. In | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
the aftermath of the European referendum the Conservative Party | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
and the Labour Party competed to see which could unleash unprecedented | :01:17. | :01:26. | |
chaos. Both one. And is that David Starkey with the | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
big hand of history? How do you fancy that on your shoulder? Amidst | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
the finger-pointing, history is surely going to remember this week | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
as the time that written lost its collective sanity. Indeed this, and | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
this Week, could well be the least surreal TV you seen for some time. | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
Don't be down, Boris won't be coming to a pie shop near you for a while. | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
Every cloud and all that. Why worry? Evenin' all, welcome to This Week, | :01:59. | :02:11. | |
and let me make clear what I've I do not want to | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
I'm not equipped to present Question Time. | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
There are lots of talented people who could do it, but count me out. | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
Whatever posters you put up on your wall, do not | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
There are people far better than me who could and should | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
You'd like me to present Question Time? | :02:38. | :02:57. | |
Speaking of Michael Gove - and worthless assurances - | :02:58. | :03:11. | |
I'm joined on the sofa tonight by a divided Britain that | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
Think of them as the Remain Humble and the Leave Me Alone of late | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
and #sadmanonatrain Michael "I'm too Brexy for my shirt" Portillo. | :03:24. | :03:34. | |
It is a special of the week, so let's have reflections. My | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
reflection is that we have never had a more professional political class, | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
people who will devote their life to professional politics, and the level | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
of incompetence has increased with it. David Cameron had no need to | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
call the referendum. He did it purely for party political reasons. | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
He was worried about Ukip which I think at the time had no members of | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
Parliament and now has one. That is how good his political instinct was. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
His stock in trade was short-term, so he did not think through the | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
consequences. He lost himself his job, split his party from top to | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
bottom, took Britain out of the European Union, which he thought | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
would be a catastrophe, all because he was too clever by half and this | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
was his cynical view of the world. He did not like the European Union | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
but was too frightened to leave and thought the British people would be | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
too frightened to leave. On the other side, the Labour Party, | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
governed by professional politicians, devised a system for | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
electing its leader which would enable the members of the country to | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
elect someone in whom the members of Parliament have no confidence | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
whatsoever. That was a perfectly foreseeable situation. I think it | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
was reformed under Ed Miliband, and it has produced this complete | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
catastrophe. As a postscript, had Boris Johnson been elected leader of | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
the Conservative Party, we would have had a similar disaster, | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
although at least the Conservative Party, the two people who go before | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
the country must be nominated by MPs. These are the results of the | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
most professional class politicians we have ever had. Is the programme | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
over, or do I have time... Thanks for watching. See you next week. My | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
moment follows on from what Michael was saying. The Prime Minister | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
resigned at 8:15am on Friday. The pound is sinking, pensioners' | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
annuities have lost value, we lost our triple-A rating, Scotland might | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
be leaving the United Kingdom. In Parliament on Monday, he came in as | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
if he was attending a local fair in his constituency. You have to admire | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
it. But the incredible thing is that Parliament was so kind to him. With | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
all that was going on you would have thought in Parliament that it was | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
just another day at the office. It struck me as bizarre. Well, it will | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
probably surprise you but we will talk more about all of this. Either | :06:08. | :06:18. | |
that, or the situation now Bay near. -- in Albania. | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
Now, we may get by with a little help from our friends, | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
but Boris Johnson is probably hoping he picks better ones in future | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
after fellow Brexiteer - and supposed sidekick in | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
his leadership bid - Michael Gove took the Go out | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
of BoGo and decided he should be Prime Minister instead. | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
Action that prompted a shock announcement from Boris | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
that he would not now stand for the party leadership. | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
Gove - the man who claimed he would write on parchment | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
in his own blood that he didn't want to be leader - | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
claimed his friend was not capable of leading the party and the country | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
And what of the five candidates who are still | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
Here's LBC presenter Iain Dale with his take of the week. | :06:54. | :07:05. | |
# All the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
# All the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers...# | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
It's been a tumultuous week, which has certainly given me a lot to talk | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
about, and the latest plot twist, the ambush of BoJo, has | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
electrified the Westminster media this morning. | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
But this ambush doesn't feel spontaneous. | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
It has all the hallmarks of a particularly dastardly plotline | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
from Game Of Thrones - a fan of which just happens to be | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
the recently announced leadership candidate, | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
the man who put the Go in BoGo, Michael Gove. | :07:44. | :07:52. | |
I think it was Boris's article in the Telegraph on Monday | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
It was all over the place on the single market and, | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
strangely enough, it was edited by his fellow Leave campaigner, | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
Support started ebbing away at that point among his fellow MPs | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
and I was cycling past Downing Street - | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
on a Boris bike, of course - and saw people holding placards | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
This is a level of unpopularity that I don't think Boris has | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
# All the time they want to take your place, the backstabbers...# | :08:19. | :08:29. | |
But, whilst BoJo was undoubtedly knifed | :08:30. | :08:31. | |
in the back, he didn't have to fall on his sword. | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
But nothing became the man like the manner in which | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
When I was David Davis's chief of staff in the 2005 leadership | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
contest, I well remember David Cameron's electrifying | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
speech at the party conference in Blackpool. | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
We could immediately feel support draining away from us. | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
Boris was wise to sense this tide change. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
It's probably the most statesman-like thing he's ever done. | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
It should guarantee him a top post in the next government, | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
One of my callers was railing against Gove's plotting and Boris's | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
departure, accusing him of leaving the Tories without | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
In spite of the Tories seemingly using House of Cards as a training | :09:15. | :09:26. | |
manual in recent weeks, I think they've found five | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
None of whom went to Eton, none of whom were in the Bullingdon Club | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
and all of whom are firmly in the one nation Tory camp. | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
I think all of them could lead the party through the choppy waters | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
of the next three years onto election victory in 2020 or, | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
And from professional broadcasting at Classic FM | :09:45. | :09:56. | |
to amateur dramatics here on This Week, welcome Iain. | :09:57. | :10:08. | |
Did Michael Gove stab Boris Johnson in the back, or the front? Both, | :10:09. | :10:18. | |
with two knives. It appears he did not get hold of Boris Johnson to | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
tell him what he was about to do. His camp say that he tried, but not | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
very hard, it seems. You can normally get hold of someone if you | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
want to. That is quite revealing. I think Michael Gove in his interview | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
with Laura Kuenssberg earlier made a lot of the points that a lot of the | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
Tories would have made and Michael has been making for ten years about | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
Boris's qualifications. What changed in the last 48 hours, or was it | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
planned in advance? I suspect we won't find that out until the Sunday | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
papers when the full story comes out. There is a school of thought | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
that it was planned by Dominic Cummings, Michael Gove's Prince of | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
darkness, his equivalent of Peter Mandelson. Apparently Michael Gove | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
wanted Dominic Cummings to have some involvement in the Boris Johnson | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
campaign and Boris would not even hand over the list of MPs to Michael | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
Gove, who was his campaign chairman, and it started from there. It is the | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
minutiae of politics, to go back on the long expressed view that you are | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
not fit to be Prime Minister, do not want to be Prime Minister, just | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
because you cannot get your own man in. There are some very angry MPs in | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
Westminster tonight. And it could be that Johnson's supporters are very | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
bitter. But Mr Johnson may have been popular with the Tory faithful but | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
he was not so popular in the parliamentary party. Do you think Mr | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
Gove detected a stop Boris campaign? Yes, I think that is possible. I | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
mentioned that we could have found ourselves in a position where the | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
Conservative membership elected Boris and the members of Parliament | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
were only in favour of him in a small minority, which would have | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
been disastrous. Boris must have smelt that as well. The speed with | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
which he withdrew, felt that the numbers had disappeared, but let's | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
get to the big picture, because Ian has already mentioned it. Boris was | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
unsuitable to be Prime Minister. Whatever Michael Gove has done, I | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
must say he has enabled me to breathe again. I was in terrible | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
fear of this country being led by Boris Johnson. He would have been a | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
disastrous Prime Minister. I entirely agree with Ian that any of | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
the five, particularly the two front runners, would be a decent Prime | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
Minister. The two front runners are Theresa and Michael Gove. I don't | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
agree. I think the front runners are Theresa May and Andreja Klepac some. | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
-- Andrea Leadsom. Because people see it, in the same way that Ed | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Miliband stabbed David Miliband in the back, this is worse. But Ed | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
Miliband one. People think he stabbed David Cameron in the back | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
and now Boris Johnson. That shows ruthlessness, which sometimes in | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
politics you need. The assassin never wins. Ask Michael Heseltine. | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
The favourite never wins and Theresa May is the favourite. If Michael | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
Gove wins, the any way he could achieve it would be to convince | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
people that a Lever has to be Prime Minister in order to negotiate a way | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
out of the European Union. That is the week sued for Theresa May. I | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
understand that Andrea Leadsom is there as well, but she is less | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
well-known. Michael has the secondary argument that he has held | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
many of the great positions of state and has experience. Allen, Theresa | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
May has her critics. People do not warm to her, can find her quite | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
cold. But isn't it remarkable that she has survived six years in the | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
Home Office? I have to give her that. I criticise her on many things | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
but that is a remarkable achievement. Herbert Morrison said | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
the walls of the Home Office are paved with dynamite. It is a funny | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
analogy, not the floor but the walls. But many political careers | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
have died in that department and she has come through after six years. | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
The interesting thing, and I wonder if you can answer this question, is | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
where the media are in this. Rupert Murdoch, Anthony Hilton, the | :14:33. | :14:34. | |
economics editor of the Evening Standard said that Murdoch told him | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
when he was asked why he was anti-European Union, he said, when I | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
go to Number Ten Downing St they do as I say, but when I go to Brussels | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
they ignore me. It seems there was an issue here about Murdoch and the | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
Daily Mail, where their support was going, and that their support | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
changed from Boris Johnson to Michael Gove. Secondly, you only | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
need a proposer and second for the Tories, not a whole swathe. Why | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
didn't Boris stay and slug it out? I agree he would be a disaster. After | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
the Telegraph article, which was all over the place on the single market, | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
it led Michael Gove to think, hang on, is he really in favour of total | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
leaving of the EU? And a lot of hard-core Euro-sceptics on the Tory | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
benches looked at that and thought, hang on, and I know one or two | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
contacts of mine went to see Boris. He said, total misunderstanding, as | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
he often does. Going back to the media, tomorrow's Daily Mail comes | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
out for Theresa May, which might result in the resignation of Mrs | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
Michael Gove as a columnist. Who knows. Rupert Murdoch is an admirer | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
of Michael Gove and has played a role in this, I think. He is not an | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
admirer of Boris Johnson. He has this Australian antique Etonian view | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
of things. He loves the Michael Gove narrative of the fishmonger's son. | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
He has played some role. For those who think there has been an ambush, | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
and I can accept that, why on earth would Sarah Vine right in that | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
e-mail about Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch vesture my Baptist I might. | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
There is a school of thought that Dominic Cummings was behind that. | :16:24. | :16:33. | |
Let me ask you, does it matter, to Mike Theresa May is the front | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
runner, I think we agree. It may not be a healthy position, but she is | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
the front runner. Does it matter that she was a remain, even though | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
she was a reluctant one. In her case, I think not. If I was | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
thinking, who do I cast my vote for, my key criterion would be, if that | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
person is sitting across from Angela Merkel or Vladimir Putin, can I | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
trust them to be tough and look them in the eye and say No? With Theresa | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
May commie can absolutely do that. Stephen Crabb is an unknown | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
quantity. Michael Gove... She could hand the negotiations over to | :17:16. | :17:24. | |
Michael Gove if he doesn't win. She will not do that, they hate each | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
other. In any case, not really. The Prime Minister cannot subcontract | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
the leaving of the European Union. Of course, and a day-to-day basis, | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
attending the meetings, but all of the crucial decisions must be made | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
by the Prime Minister. She said at the launch that that is what she | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
would do. She swings both ways, doesn't she, Theresa May, in a | :17:51. | :18:04. | |
European sense? Do any of the other three candidates stand a chance? | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
Stephen Crabb has more support than you might have thought, about 25. | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
They all stand a chance because we know that things happen. Which of | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
the five candidates, and we know all five now that the list is closed, | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
which candidate would Labour find most forbidding -- most formidable? | :18:27. | :18:36. | |
Theresa May. I think we would wish for Michael Gove. In that European | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
debate the things he said, the British public are sick of experts, | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
and then he made that remarkable... I think Theresa May. Five | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
candidates, none of them went to Eton, four out of five were either | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
state educated or part state educated. Should Labour be worried? | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
We should be worried and concerned, of course. We have enough on our | :19:01. | :19:11. | |
plate. Posh Tories has been a constant theme. Is it coming to an | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
end? I was in that documentary. John Major, Margaret Thatcher, it is not | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
the first time the Tories have had... Maybe it is not a trend any | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
more. Who would make the better Prime Minister, Theresa May or | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
Michael Gove? I think Michael Gove, because he believes things more | :19:36. | :19:37. | |
strongly, because it is important and should be a Leave candidate, | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
because I think he is highly intelligent. I am not saying that | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
Theresa isn't, for a minute. I would be perfectly happy if Theresa wins. | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
I think we have a good set of candidates, but Michael Gove would | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
be my candidate. I am sorry he is unpopular. Didn't he write a book | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
about you? He did. You could write a book about him. I am not declaring | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
who I want because I have to interview them all the time. You | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
wouldn't declare it, would you? I certainly wouldn't. I rest my case. | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
Thank you very much. Now it's late - Brexy's | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
Midnight Runners late. So keep popping the pills and stay | :20:21. | :20:21. | |
wide awake, because waiting in the wings, David Starkey is here | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
to talk about the hand of history. And if you'd like to be a minor | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
footnote in the This Week story, you can follow us on the Twitter, | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
the Fleecebook, SnapNumpty and Gordon Brown's | :20:32. | :20:33. | |
Intergalactic Web Sphere. Now, after the referendum result, | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
are you feeling up? Or are you just a little | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
bit all over the place? A bit like the stock markets | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
and sterling, really. So we sent the Observer's | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
Andrew Rawnsley down to the Henley Business School | :20:46. | :20:47. | |
to find out who's been trading places in a tumultuous | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
week in Westminster. Sell, sell, sell. Those of you with | :20:51. | :21:13. | |
long memories will recall that the Tories won last year's election by | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
promising that they alone could guarantee certainty and stability. | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
How is that working out for you? Sell, sell, sell everything. A | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
referendum result that split the country down the middle has | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
unleashed wild volatility on the financial and political markets. At | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
7am on Monday morning and anxious world waited to hear from a voice of | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
authority. The government came up with George Osborne. Britain has the | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
strongest major advanced economy in the world. I said we had to fix the | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
roof so that we were prepared for whatever the future held, and thank | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
goodness we did. Soon afterwards, the pound sunk to a 31- year low | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
against the dollar. Get rid of them all, I don't want to be holding any | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
Osbornes. The Chancellor, once a favourite to be the next Prime | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
Minister, will not even be a candidate for the Tory leadership. | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
In these turbulent times, at least we can rely on Her Majesty's | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
opposition, to fall apart. In despair with Jeremy Corbyn, members | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
of the Shadow Cabinet started to tender their resignation. What a | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
welcome for the new Labour MP for Tooting on her first day in | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
Parliament. Let me welcome the new member for Tooting to her place. I | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
would advise her to keep her mobile phone on, she might be in the Shadow | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
Cabinet by the end of the day. And I thought I was having a bad day. Our | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
country is divided, and the country will thank me that the benches in | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
front of me, nor those behind, for indulging in internal factional | :23:02. | :23:14. | |
manoeuvring at this time. Jeremy Corbyn told parliament that | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
he was concerned about job insecurity, as well he might, as | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
more of his colleagues declared that the party would go bust unless he | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
quit. I think Jeremy, in the best interests of the party, needs to | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
stand down. We don't serve our party, or the interests of some of | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
the poorest in our country and communities by being a Labour Party | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
that cannot win an election. You are finding this difficult? Yes, yes. I | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
feel that I have served in the best way I can and today I had to go. It | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
feels that the collision between the people who are seeking to get rid of | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
Jeremy Corbyn and the people who are trying to stick in there, in Jeremy | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
Corbyn's team, risks breaking the Labour Party. | :24:04. | :24:12. | |
David Cameron headed to Brussels to talk to the EU's Chief Executive 's, | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
the very first step in what will be an extremely tortuous divorce. He | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
will be long gone before it is over. To keep things amicable with our | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
jilted partners, some soothing diplomacy might be in order. | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
Instead, Nigel Farage turned up at the European Parliament to have a | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
self glorifying gloat. When I came here 17 years ago and I said that I | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union, | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
you all laughed at me. Well, I have to say, you are not laughing now, | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
are you? You are fighting for the exit, the British people voted in | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
favour of the exit. Not all of us cried Scotland. We voted to stay. | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
Please, remember this, Scotland did not let you down. Please, I beg you, | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
do not let Scotland's down now. Back in Blighty, Labour was now in | :25:12. | :25:25. | |
complete meltdown. The Labour leader scrabbled together a new board, | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
invited in the TV cameras so we could start to put faces to the | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
previously unknown names, and then had second thoughts. I am not sure | :25:33. | :25:41. | |
this is a great idea. Can we do something later on, OK? At his next | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
appearance in the Commons, Mr Corbyn demonstrated that a sense of irony | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
is not in his repertoire. The Prime Minister has two months left. Will | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
he need a one nation legacy, and will that legacy be the scrapping of | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
the bedroom tax, the banning of zero-hours contracts, and cancelling | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
of the cuts to universal credit? He talks about job insecurity and my | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
two months to go. It might be in my party's interests for him to sit | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
there, but it is not in the national interest, and I would say, for | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
heaven 's sake, man, go. Even an overwhelming vote of no confidence | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
in him by his own MPs was not enough to persuade Mr Corbyn that the game | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
is up. So now his fate, and perhaps the very existence of the Labour | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
Party, will be decided in a most bloody leadership battle. Over in | :26:40. | :26:49. | |
Tory world, the contenders for David Cameron's round started to put | :26:50. | :26:58. | |
themselves on the market. Theresa May presented herself as a safe | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
haven. I know I am not a showy politician. I do not tour TV | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
studios, gossip about people over lunch, go drinking in Parliament's | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
ours. I do not often wear my heart on my sleeve. I just get on with the | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
job in front of me. Then Michael Gove shocked everyone, especially | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
those who believed him when he previously said he would not make a | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
good Prime Minister, by launching his bid to takeover the party. | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
During the course of the last few days I have realised that while | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
Boris does have those special abilities to communicate and reach | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
out, what he did not have was the capacity to build and to lead to | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
that team and provide the leadership the country needs at this critical | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
moment. The markets had anticipated a merger between the leading | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
Brexiteers, so the Michael Gove declaration triggered a frenzy of | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
selling of Johnson's, and then this bombshell. He has done what? I must | :27:55. | :28:04. | |
tell you, my friends, you have waited faithfully for the punch line | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
of this speech, that having consulted colleagues, and in view of | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
the circumstances in Parliament, I have concluded that person cannot be | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
me. So, have we ever had a week like this? I certainly can't remember | :28:26. | :28:26. | |
one. Go on, surprise me! Andrew Rawnsley trying to keep up - | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
and down - with events. And we're joined in the studio | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
by journalist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter Rachel Shabi, | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
and by the woman many talent-spotters are calling | :28:39. | :28:40. | |
"the new Angus Robertson", possible future SNP leader and star | :28:41. | :28:41. | |
of PMQs Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. If that doesn't ruin your career, I | :28:42. | :28:57. | |
don't know what will. Alan Johnson, this was a provincial England | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
peasant revolt and Labour was on the wrong side of it. The EU election? | :29:02. | :29:11. | |
Listen, the EU result was a disaster all round. Cameron managed to get | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
42% of Conservative supporters. He is the leader of the party. He | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
called the referendum and only got 42% of his supporters. We always | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
knew he needed Labour votes. He got them, just not enough. We got 64%, | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
we needed 70. Your area voted strongly to leave. You are not a | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
Corbynite. Yvette Cooper's area lost. Indeed, every Brownite, | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
centrist Labour MP outside of London, their area voted to leave. | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
Yes, but it was about Europe. If you look at the elections just over a | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
year ago in most of those seats we had an increased majority, including | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
mine. The issue of Europe and particularly immigration, because | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
this became a referendum about immigration. From the time the net | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
migration figures came out, 333,000, it turned from a debate about Europe | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
and the economy. Immigration was always there, but one of the | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
mistakes Boris Johnson made in his article we have just been talking | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
about on Monday, he said it was nothing to do with immigration. I | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
think it was. These were people the politicians had ignored, derided, | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
dismissed, called bigoted if they even raised it. They were Labour | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
voters in large numbers. And they ignored their party. This was | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
probably their last chance to give the establishment of the Centre left | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
and right bloody nose, and they did. That is your assessment. I do not | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
accept that these people were ignored, that we never talked about | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
immigration. Sometimes it seemed we talked about nothing else. We have | :30:56. | :31:03. | |
been debating this issue. Here was the Prime Minister, fighting two | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
elections on promising to get net migration down to the tens of | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
thousands. Here was the same Prime Minister and ker-ching people to | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
vote yes to Europe, having not just failed, but net migration was | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
118,000. That is why they voted against him. Is this the right | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
perspective to see it through? Yes, it is the lethal, nation of people | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
being worried about immigration and despising the elite. -- the lethal | :31:31. | :31:38. | |
combination. Gordon Brown was the best example during the referendum | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
campaign when he was asked about immigration. First, he said was a | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
BBC obsession, then he said it was an obsession of the Sun newspaper. | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
The only issue was illegal in the, he said. He would not talk about it. | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
When Jeremy Corbyn said you could not limit immigration if you were | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
inside the European Union, the Labour Party set upon him for the | :32:03. | :32:04. | |
cardinal sin of having told the truth. Was it not more than | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
immigration? Was it not also a revolt of people who have not done | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
well out of globalisation? In cities like London most people think | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
overall they have done pretty well out of globalisation. If you go to | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
the Midlands and further north in England, there are plenty who do not | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
feel they have done well and inequality has widened and the world | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
has passed them by. This was their revolt. Yes, I think it was a vote | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
in the only way that became available to them. General elections | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
certainly have not helped. To be clear, this is the neglect, the | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
absolute neglect that has resulted in daily struggles, daily stress, | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
daily wondering how you are going to get through the week, is a result of | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
a system started by Thatcher, Thatcherism, perpetuated under new | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
Labour and continued under the Conservatives, with these horrific | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
austerity cuts. That is a different issue. The interesting thing... Are | :33:14. | :33:22. | |
you really blaming this on posterity? Austerity exacerbated a | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
pre-existing condition began by Thatcherism and continued through | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
new Labour. The interesting thing about new Labour -- about | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
immigration is that there is a difference between understanding | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
that people are concerned about the strains caused by immigration and | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
wanting to find solutions to that, which would involve the sort of | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
things Jeremy Corbyn is talking about, which is making sure that | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
employers do not undercut workers by bringing in cheaper migrant | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
Labour... That is the legal part of it. We try to have this conversation | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
about politics but you never allow it, do you? I just put points to | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
you. I am saying that undercutting Labour, paying below the minimum | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
wage, is a phenomenon of illegal immigration. It is not, it is a | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
system by which companies are allowed to undercut local wages with | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
migrant Labour. The other way to address it is to look at areas that | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
have been affected by large numbers of migrants, and give them more | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
funding. That is something the Conservative government cut. The | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
other way to look at it is to re-skill the population, or you | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
could embark on major infrastructure projects like housing. These are all | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
things that have been put forward by Jeremy Corbyn. | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
Scotland didn't have the revolt on this because you already have your | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
antiestablishment revolves, replacing the Labour Establishment | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
in Scotland, so the dynamic was different. The SNP and the | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
pro-European campaign was hugely positive in Scotland, totally | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
different to what we have seen down south. As we have heard from Michael | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
and Alan, the idea of fighting this campaign on the basis of immigration | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
was never going to be a good thing. We have heard of a fivefold increase | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
in racist attacks. On LBC today, somebody was crying about the | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
effects of these attacks on them. We are working with a different | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
framework, a positive campaign, and what did we have? 62%, every | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
authority in Scotland, voting to remain. But what happened after | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
that? Even a week on, the rest of the UK is in absolute shock, feeling | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
they are without a plan. In Scotland, we are in a completely | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
different position. Within minutes, Nicola Sturgeon made a statement, | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
the Cabinet met on Saturday. I don't think anybody can deny that Nicola | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
has a plan. Will be Scottish Government staged a second | :36:02. | :36:03. | |
independence referendum before the Brexit process is complete? The | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
First Minister has made it clear that a number of options are on the | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
table as none of them are of the table. It is important she made that | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
point. Beyond that, she has the Scottish Parliament behind her, | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
which is important. If you have got a plan, does that involve a second | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
independence referendum before the UK has completed the Brexit process? | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
That is an option, absolutely. She has been in Brussels having | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
meetings, unprecedented meetings, I should say. I have been watching | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
that carefully. I am trying to work out where we are going. She is out | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
there to get the best possible deal for Scotland. That is posturing, I'm | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
trying to work out where we are going. Will the plan, if there is | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
one, and you say that there is, will that secure membership of the EU for | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
Scotland before you recommend that Scotland leaves the UK? We have a | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
number of options. You asked me about the plan. Of course, it is not | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
within our gift to decide what might happen, because there are | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
negotiations and discussions to take place with the UK Government within | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
the framework of Brexit and our friends in the EU, with whom we have | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
had important discussions. If you are going to go for a second | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
referendum, will be Scottish Government first of all clinch EU | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
membership for Scotland before you then put Scottish independence | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
forward? We want to have a clear position in terms of our membership | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
of the EU, so that is why it is important that the First Minister is | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
involved in discussions. Whoever that is weird, the people do not | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
know who that will be... -- with. Will you clinch EU membership, will | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
you get an agreement with the EU that, if you come out of the UK, | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
your EU membership as an independent nation is guaranteed before the | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
referendum was to mark let me remind you back to 2014. Everything should | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
be seen within context. The people of Scotland voted 62% to remain | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
within the EU. That is their wish and it is the job of the First | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
Minister to ensure that. To remain in the EU, we had to vote no in the | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
Scottish independence referendum. Therefore it is correct that any | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
vote on independence should be framed within the EU context. I am | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
trying to get clear what the strategy is, but nobody seems to | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
know. Nicola Sturgeon knows what her strategy is. But you haven't been | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
able to tell me. Villa I have answered all of your questions. At a | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
time when the opportunities for an opposition have never been greater | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
or more needed, why is the Labour Party as dysfunctional as this? It's | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
a really good question. Bad enough that the Labour Party has chosen | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
this moment, when we desperately need a strong and robust opposition | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
to tear themselves apart, bad enough that they are doing it in such a | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
calculated way, so they are staggering their resignations so | :39:29. | :39:30. | |
they dominate the media cycle instead of, for example, either the | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
mess we are in all the Conservative Party. Bad enough that they are | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
trying to blame Jeremy Corbyn or having failed to secure a Remain | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
vote and he got as much of the vote of the SNP did. To top it all off, | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
this is the worst coup I have ever seen. In what sense? There is no | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
plan, the leader. Who is the plan, what is the platform, the politics? | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
They know they don't have the support of the party membership, | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
which still backs the democratically elected leader, or the unions. If | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
you are going to orchestrate a coup, make it credible, especially if you | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
are going to accuse the leader of incompetence. Is this a coup and has | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
it been badly planned or staged was to mark it was not staged. You | :40:21. | :40:28. | |
cannot survive as the leader of a political party without the support | :40:29. | :40:30. | |
of the people you work with most closely. On Europe, I'm afraid, | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
Jeremy didn't put his heart and soul into it, and there were people in | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
his office who were absolutely Leavers, they were like Michael, | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
they thought Europe was a capitalist conspiracy, so the Labour Party was | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
fighting very hard, and I take my responsibility for not winning. He | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
has taken no responsibility. Jeremy says, the campaign I was running was | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
euphoric. He had to kind of ride in and say it should be remain and | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
reform, so you list all of the things wrong with Europe. That | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
wasn't what the party was doing. Leaving that aside, Jeremy is never | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
going to command the support of the people he works with most closely. | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
You saw Lisa Nandy and Owen Smith, two people who tried really hard. | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
This isn't about people like me, terrible Blairites, the worst insult | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
you could possibly used. It isn't racist any more, it is Blairites. | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
Leave me aside. They have tried really hard, and many people tried | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
really hard. It ain't working. It's not going to happen. And you can't | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
instil confidence in a leader through intimidation. If there is a | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
leadership challenge, and we are still waiting on one, and it goes to | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
the country in terms of the membership of the Labour Party in | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
the country, and Mr Corbyn wins, as a poll into Margaret's Times says it | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
may not be quite as easy as his supporters think, but he is still | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
ahead, does that not risked splitting the Labour Party? -- in | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
tomorrow's Times. First, would he be a candidate on the ballot? That | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
would need to be tested. Let's assume that he is, because natural | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
justice would assume he would be. I think it should be tested in | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
because. You are deluding yourselves. He is on the ballot. | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
That is why you won't read a leadership candidate, because you | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
know who ever you put up against him is going to lose. On the subject of | :42:43. | :42:50. | |
delusion, how would you fight a general election when every | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
interviewer, they would say, why should anyone think that Jeremy | :42:56. | :42:57. | |
Corbyn should be Prime Minister when 80% of his MPs don't? You have | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
completely misunderstood the appeal of Jeremy Corbyn and his politics. | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
You have understood why that kind of politics resonate so strongly with | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
the population and Labour voters. You would never ask that question if | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
you had any inkling of why it is so powerful and popular. You have made | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
me a happy man. We have to move the argument on from who is leading | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
which party because, at the end of the day, we faced a vote, we have a | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
result, people are concerned about what this means for jobs for their | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
own lifestyle. All of this bickering doesn't help anyone. The House of | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Commons this week has been unbelievable, watching across the | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
way the Tories bickering among each other and again, in the Labour | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
Party, when all that people want is a plan. Everybody has gone, was in | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
action, Boris was playing cricket, where were they all? You could get | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
somebody off the street and they'd do a better job. The establishment | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
had a bloody nose on June 23 so it isn't surprised that Her Majesty 's | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
government and opposition are in various degrees of disarray. That is | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
what happened. I am still trying to work out. My advice is, you get your | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
plan and then come back in. You would have a plan before the vote. | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
We would be much better off. Now, it's being said a lot that | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
last week's referendum shows a nation divided - | :44:35. | :44:36. | |
referenda usually do - and it's always the mantra | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
of the losers, never the winners. According to the polls, | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
a majority of those under 50 who voted, voted to remain, | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
whilst a majority of the over-50s Young folks were said to be | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
particularly upset. Some felt betrayed by | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
the older generation. One youngster even tweeted, "I'm not | :44:56. | :44:56. | |
giving up my seat on the train If only more of them had given up | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
a few moments of their time, of course, and bothered to vote then | :45:00. | :45:14. | |
they could have changed the result. And I think it's unfair to pick | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
on Michael Portillo, who spends most of his life on trains and | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
deserves to be seated at his age. That's why we've decided to take | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
a step back, get a sense of perspective - and put the hand | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
of history in this week's about my belief that Britain | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
is stronger, safer and better off But the British people have made | :45:30. | :45:38. | |
a very clear decision Call-me-Dave might prefer to point | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
to his other achievements, but whether he likes it or not, | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
history will judge a Prime Minister who wanted to stay in the EU | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
and achieved the exact opposite. They say all political | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
careers end in failure, but Churchill is remembered | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
for leading us to victory. And his self-appointed successor, | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
Boris Johnson, seemed to have achieved his own personal V | :46:07. | :46:08. | |
day last week. But was the weight of history | :46:09. | :46:16. | |
just too much for him? Some people thrive on the idea | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
that their actions will be dissected I feel the hand of history | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
upon our shoulder in respect But will Tony Blair's name be | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
forever associated with peace in Northern Ireland, | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
or with war in Iraq? The Chilcot report, out next week, | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
will surely define his place Whether you were Leave or Remain, | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
are you coming to terms with the thought that the country | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
might just changed forever? We are joined by historian David | :46:48. | :47:06. | |
Starkey. Is it clear that David Cameron will go down in history as | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
the man who lost the European Union? Yes, it also probably Scotland. We | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
are seeing the possibility of a series of dissolutions, and we are | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
also seeing them being directly his responsibility. In other words, his | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
style of management, his casualness, his refusal to think in terms of | :47:28. | :47:35. | |
serious strategy, his essay crisis style, all of those things. | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
Powerfully, and I'm sorry, there is a second figure in all of this, | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
which is his principal councillor, if you like, the Chancellor, George | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
Osborne. In some ways, Cameron franchised his brain to Osborne and | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
Osborne was supposed to be the master tactician, this deep, | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
profound thinker. He is shown to have the profundity of a sheet of | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
waste paper. Whatever David Cameron feels he might have achieved, or his | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
supporters... It is as nothing. After all, the only serious | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
achievement of the government is gay marriage, and that seems to be to be | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
an appropriately frivolous touch of confetti on the whole thing. Air is | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
profound doubt over the alleged economic reconstruction and | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
recovery. It has been achieved at a terrible price. We have talked about | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
it on this programme before. The way that the cuts have been handled is | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
disastrous, because you protected education and the health service and | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
overseas aid, leaving areas which are now absolutely crucial, like the | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
foreign service, like defence, like the department of trade and | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
industry, absolutely trade -- start of talent and purpose. In the public | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
mind, does it stay that way? Historians are fond of revisionism. | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
I have made my career out of it. In the public mind, but that is | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
revisionism that tends to stick among historians and people who | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
follow these things, in the public mind, once you get stuck with | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
something like this... Once you are branded. It is pretty hard to get | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
rid of. Blair is the Iraq war, but much more than that, he is the sense | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
of lying. One of the great problems is, in a fundamental way, we have | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
not had a change of government since 1997. This is my great fear with | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
Michael Gove, who you were singing the praises of. He was Blair. He | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
thought that Blair was a brilliant tactician, a brilliant strategist, | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
he passionately supported the Iraq war. There is a more fundamental | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
issue, which I don't think we have dealt with and talking about why the | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
referendum went the way it is. It was our version of the culture wars. | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
When Rachel was sitting here attributing the whole event | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
austerity, I think she failed to understand what was really going on. | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
Once again, another big charge, and here, I think Michael and I will | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
vigorously disagree, I think Tory modernisation was completely | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
misconceived. I want to try and stick to what Mr Cameron's legacy | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
will or won't be. I think David is right, in a way, that what brands | :50:31. | :50:38. | |
you, sticks with you, and let's take another auditory Prime Minister, | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
Lord north, in the public mind, remembered for losing Suez, | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
Chamberlain for the piece of paper, and now Mr Cameron for losing the | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
referendum. I think it is inevitable. I think David Cameron | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
did well to lead a Coalition Government that stabilised the | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
market after the economic crisis, which was difficult. His Coalition | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
Government was moderately successful in home policy, disastrous at | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
foreign policy. This Conservative government has been disastrous | :51:13. | :51:14. | |
altogether, because it has only really been about the referendum, | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
which was simply a party political trip, and you can't do that with the | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
nation's future, particularly if you have a view that a Leave result | :51:24. | :51:35. | |
would be a catastrophe. Mr Blair won three election victories, two of | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
them by landslides. No Labour leader has done that in a row. But yet, and | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
Chilcott next week will probably emphasise this, the thing he seems | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
most to be associated with is Iraq. That is the legacy. That was 2003, | :51:49. | :51:57. | |
and he won another election in 2005. Yes, David is right, Iraq will | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
forever be attached to Tony Blair, in a way that the adventure in Libya | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
will probably not be associated with David Cameron. That was a minor | :52:11. | :52:19. | |
chapter. In comparison, it is a minute disaster. Going back to | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
modernisation, the problem was that it turned the Tory party into a pale | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
version of new Labour, so this sense of having no choice, this cultural | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
alienation. I come from the north, it is well concealed but I do, my | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
family comes from Oldham and Rochdale. I had wind of what is | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
going on now two or three years ago. My cousin was leading Ukip. She | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
swore what would happen. Let me try and drag you back to what we are | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
meant to be talking about, which is legacy. Shame! We say that Tony | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
Blair will go down in history, or he will be known in history | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
fundamentally through the prism of Iraq. What about the possibility he | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
may also go down in history as the last Labour leader to win an | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
election? I think that is very much on the cards. Listening to the kind | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
of defence which was offered for Corbyn this evening suggests a | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
degree of being a juice, a total failure, doesn't it -- obtuse, a | :53:23. | :53:31. | |
total failure to understand their plight. Labour exemplifies this | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
tension between, as it were, the voter and the political elite, in | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
other words, its own MPs, in an absolutely acute form. There are | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
three tensions, one between Labour members, the other a Labour voter | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
and another between the MPs, so the Labour Party is like a scene of | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
medieval torture, being pulled apart in three directions. Historians love | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
that kind of thing. Plenty to write about in the years to come. | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
That's your lot for tonight, folks - but not for us, because it's ?350 | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
Million A Week Extra For The NHS Night at Lou Lou's, | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
although Iain Duncan Smith can't guarantee we'll actually get in. | :54:10. | :54:11. | |
But we leave you tonight with a man who definitely isn't going anywhere | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
because he's having such a good time. | :54:17. | :54:17. | |
And, let's face it, it does look like a lot of fun. | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
Nighty night, don't let Jeremy Corbyn bite. | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
Some of your MPs are blaming you for Brexit. | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
Good morning, nice to see you. Thank you so much for coming today. | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
# I'm having such a good time, I'm having a ball | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
# If you want to have a good time just give me a call | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
# Cos I'm having a good time Yes, I'm having a good time | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
# I'm a rocket ship on my way to Mars on a collision course | :54:47. | :54:56. | |
# I am a satellite I'm out of control...# | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
Good evening. Goodbye. Thank you very much for coming. | :55:01. | :55:14. | |
MUSIC: What A Wonderful World by Joey Ramone | :55:15. | :55:16. | |
# I see trees of green... # Just look at that. | :55:17. | :55:19. |