07/07/2016 This Week


07/07/2016

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Tonight, on the This Week Wing, a former Prime Minister

:00:11.:00:14.

Tony Blair says going to war in Iraq with his American mates was the most

:00:15.:00:21.

agonising decision he ever made, a decision John Chilcot

:00:22.:00:24.

Author Douglas Murray flies the flag for intervention.

:00:25.:00:31.

One failed war does not make all wars wrong, and we've

:00:32.:00:34.

But do we really want our foreign policy decided by China

:00:35.:00:38.

Accusations of dirty tricks and a stitch up in the race

:00:39.:00:46.

for Number Ten, an opposition leader who says he's not going anywhere.

:00:47.:00:49.

No sign of the political drama abating at Westminster.

:00:50.:00:52.

The Spectator's Isabel Hardman says you couldn't make it up.

:00:53.:00:58.

The plots and plotting intensified in Westminster this week,

:00:59.:01:00.

Comedian Omid Djalili asks, why are the masses so

:01:01.:01:10.

A week in which dark, sinister forces have been at work

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trying to undermine my bid for the Tory leadership by claiming

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Eton, Oxford, Harvard, the Brigade of Guards,

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Goldman Sachs, Rothschild's, long-standing presenter

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What bit of that rather glittering track record is untrue?

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Of course, I may have embellished a few bits here and there,

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but who hasn't bigged up their CV when applying for the big job?

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If anything, I've rather understated my achievements,

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since I make no mention of my stint as chief cook and bottle washer

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for Her Majesty at Balmoral, or part-time Dauphin

:02:16.:02:17.

You may have seen me on the eponymous series

:02:18.:02:22.

To question my credentials is unworthy even of a backstabbing

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Aberdonian fishmonger's son, and we know how low they can go.

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Speaking of Andrea Leadsom's time as Governor of the Bank of England,

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I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two bloody difficult men who just

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Think of them as the Big Lie and Porky Pie of late-night

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I speak, of course, of the #lammynator David Lammy,

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#sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo and the only one you really

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care about, #mollythedog, with her little stepsister

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Your moment of the week? Well, today when it emerged that the next Prime

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Minister of the United Kingdom will be a woman. It takes you back more

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than 40 years, when the Conservative Party first chose a woman as a

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leader, an awfully long time ago. I would just like David to reflect

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that for all the women only short lists in the Labour Party, all the

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Blair babes, the Labour Party has never come close to producing a

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woman leader, and the Conservative Party is about to produce its second

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woman leader. It's interesting that it's not all about interfering with

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the process, it's sometimes just about what pops through a party.

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Don't rise to the bait because I will come back to it later. Give me

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your moment. It has been a tough week, so I think the moment is out

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of politics. It's got to be the football. It's the week of

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underdogs. Iceland, arriving back home to that fantastic Viking

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charmed, and Wales not quite doing it but the atmosphere in Cardiff,

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unbelievable. That's my moment. Now, after seven years of waiting,

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yesterday saw the publication of the Chilcot report into the Iraq

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War. Far from the whitewash

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it was expected to be, the report gave a damning account

:04:32.:04:33.

of how then-Prime Minister Tony Blair took Britain

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into a "disastrous and unnecessary" war, for which post-conflict

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planning was wholly inadequate. Chilcot's role was not

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to make a pronouncement on the legality of the invasion,

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but the 2.6 million-page document leaves the door open

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for the families of soldiers who died in the campaign

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to bring a challenge. But do the failings of Iraq mean

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we should kiss goodbye to the possibility of unilateral

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action in the future? And who should have to sign off

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on Britain going to war? Here's Douglas Murray

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with his take of the week, The Chilcot report has

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delivered a damning verdict But it will have done nothing

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to change people's minds. If you thought that Tony Blair

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was a liar and a war criminal And if you didn't think that,

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then you still don't. In any case, one failed war does not

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make all wars wrong. We have a tendency

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to remember only those We rightly talk about the mess

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that's been created in Iraq and in Libya, but very rarely talk

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about those interventions that Sierra Leone, for instance,

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or Kosovo. It's worth remembering that polls

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showed public support for Tony Blair in 2003,

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and although the usual suspects are talking

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about this as an illegal war, the Chilcot Inquiry does not

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come to that conclusion. In any case, whatever your views

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on Iraq, why should the Russians and the Chinese have the ability

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to veto UK decision-making Russia and countries

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in the Middle East won't shy away Do we really want to clear the stage

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and allow them to set the agenda? In all the recriminations

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and rightful regret over Iraq, it is worth remembering that

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Britain isn't the worst war It is an outrage that people

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who have been apologists for the worst regimes in the world

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are currently trying to portray Yes, I'm thinking of Jeremy Corbyn

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and his cronies, and their And just when we need a strong

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Labour Party, the result The Corbynistas need to go,

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but Chilcot has just pulled out everything from under the Blairite

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wing of the party. Instead of endlessly rowing

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about 2003, we need to decide what we're going to learn from it,

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and also to realise what a disaster it is that our foreign policy,

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as well as our politics as a whole, And from Bunker 51 paintball

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in Greenwich to our own little underground shelter on This Week,

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Douglas Murray joins us now. Michael, was the Chilcot report

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worth waiting for? I don't think it told us anything we did not know 13

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years ago, certainly nine years ago when it was set up. It is welcome

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that it does not pull its punches but I think everything was on the

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table along time ago. Was it more robust, even more damning you

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expected? I was pleased it was not a whitewash. It was a serious piece of

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work. His language was very British but very clear and incisive. And

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clearly, it's a very, very sad week for British foreign policy. Is at

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the final nail in Tony Blair's reputation? History will judge Tony

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Blair on a whole raft of things, but clearly, the chaos that is Iraq now,

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on any analysis, the lack of planning and the sectarian violence

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that we have in that country and in the region, as a consequence, must

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mean that it was a catastrophe, in that sense. It gives no comfort,

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Douglas, to those who think he is a war criminal. No, those people are

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trying to do as much as they can with what they have got but I think

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they will be disappointed in that regard. The people who want Tony

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Blair to be tried, they will keep going. One of the saddest things

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about the press conference that he did was that one could not help

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thinking this was a man who knew he was going to have at least civil

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actions and others coming against improbably for the rest of his life.

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George Galloway on the Daily Politics today said he thought the

:10:00.:10:03.

war criminal route could not be pursued now but they were going to

:10:04.:10:07.

pursue misconduct in public office, also a criminal offence. Could that

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be a runner? It could be. All of these things will be tried. As it

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was with Henry Kissinger and others, there will be endless attempts. I

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think Tony Blair knows that. It is said that Iraq will make it much

:10:24.:10:26.

harder to mount military intervention, but since then we have

:10:27.:10:30.

intervened in Libya and our planes are over the skies of Iraq and

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Syria. Doing very, very limited operations in the latter case you

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give. Maybe that's right. It might be right, it might be a consequence.

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As a country, we have to think seriously about whether it is

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appropriate that somebody in Tony Blair's position, or David Cameron's

:10:50.:10:54.

position, should have hanging over them in perpetuity the idea of

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endless legal cases against them. I dislike it when that happens to

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members of the Armed Forces, and I think it basically makes our

:11:04.:11:07.

politics and foreign policy pretty inoperable. Of course, you stay

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within the bounds of the law. The bounds of the law on many of these

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things are clear. But the idea that any British Prime Minister could

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constantly fear every branch of international law, is something that

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will simply mean that politicians who believe in the status quo and

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never doing anything are the only politicians we will ever get. Iraq

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clearly changes the mood for intervention but does not rule it

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out entirely. We have been -- intervened since Iraq. I think it

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changes are very much on both sides of the Atlantic. One of the legacies

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from David Cameron is the idea that we now need a parliamentary vote

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before we take military action, which, I'm afraid, people listening

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will think I am being undemocratic, but I think that is inoperable. If

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all of our potential enemies believe a Prime Minister has to toil day and

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night to put together a coalition in the House of Commons to support

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military action, we have no deterrent effect whatsoever. David.

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I have voted against all the literary action since Iraq. I felt

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so let down by an intelligence service that was not properly

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scrutinised at the time. And I think it is not that you cannot intervene.

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It is the terms. The second thing is, when you intervene you have to

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be prepared to be there for the long term. There is this sense that you

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can quickly drop a few bombs and leave. It takes money, lots of

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money. Look at what happened in Germany after the Second World War,

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a whole Marshall plan, therefore the long term. I don't see any of that

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in the international context. We were not prepared to commit, for the

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part of Iraq we were responsible for, the greater Basra area, we were

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not prepared to commit either the men or the material for it. And I

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think there is something shameful about getting involved in a

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situation we are not ready to see through. We have discovered recently

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that the government did not even plan for Brexit, so it is not

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surprising that the government had not planned for post operation in

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Iraq. I want to pick up on something David said about intelligence. I

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must correct you a bit on that. To pretend we were sent the let down by

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our intelligence services is in part to misunderstand what Chilcot says.

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Chilcot says, and we are still absorbing it, a long report, that

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there was clearly, people in your party at the time, like Jack Straw,

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were clearly reaching for intelligence to justify conclusions

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they wanted to come to. Intelligence is never a straightforward business.

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Nobody ever says, this is a slam dunk. It is always a process of

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adding up a set of things that are themselves half and quarter truths

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and trying to stick them together into a picture which may reflect

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reality. There is a clear sign from the Chilcot report that Jack Straw

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and others were going to the intelligence community to get

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information they wanted from them. I think it is quite wrong to blame the

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intelligence community for that failure. That was a political

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failure. But they did allow politicians to talk about the

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intelligence in ways that could not be justified by the intelligence

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they had given. The broader point is that if you look back in the lead

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up, the years up to Iraq, we were probably too keen to intervene as a

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British government into many areas. We started a big intervention in

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Afghanistan but had not finished in Iraq. It was probably the climax of

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that. There is or has the danger that the pendulum goes the other

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way, David, and we are now too reluctant to intervene when we

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should. We intervened in Sierra Leone and

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Bosnia, we were in Afghanistan and we were seriously stretched. Some of

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the complaints about weaponry and equipment are unforgivable. The

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pendulum has swung to a place where in the US and the UK it is fine to

:15:20.:15:26.

drop bombs from aerial bombardment and drones but you will not commit

:15:27.:15:30.

troops on the ground. There is a question about whether you do that

:15:31.:15:35.

if you need to intervene. There has to be a serious plan, you have to do

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it for a long time. We interviewed, or intervened, in Iraq, we occupied,

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it is a mess, and Libya is a mess, we did not intervene in Syria or

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occupy, it is a mess, so where is the lesson? The lesson is that you

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can only intervene if you have the resources, and I take up what David

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and Douglas have said, you need to be willing to intervene for the

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long-term. It is like imperialism. We used to go into places with a

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view to being there 20, 30, 40 years, people making their careers

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there. We have lost that mentality. It is an extraordinary revolt

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against our history. We do is to take a superior view, the Americans

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were anti imperialist because they did not understand what it meant,

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and we had a history of it, and we achieved some benign results along

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the way. What Iraq needed was a thorough commitment. Do we have any

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idea what Jeremy Corbyn's policy is? Theresa May's? No, and in both

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parties they are shying away from this. They regard foreign policy as

:17:01.:17:05.

being a quagmire which is best not to get involved in. The problem is

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that events make things happen, and Iraq happened because of 9/11.

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Washington decided they had the capability to go after another

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American enemy, and they decided it was Saddam Hussein. We don't know if

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a Paris like attack happened in London what our interventionist

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foreign policy would be, who is planning it, who would do something.

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It is not a coincidence that the most interventionist leader in

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Europe these days is from what I want. He has the lowest ratings of

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any French president in 50 years. There are a lot of reasons for that.

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So if you too have "an entrenched need to gossip, particularly

:17:55.:18:00.

when Blue Nun is taken, as it all too often seemed

:18:01.:18:03.

to be", then pour yourself another three fingers.

:18:04.:18:06.

Because waiting in the wings, comedian Omid Djalili is here

:18:07.:18:09.

to talk about his new Iraq War documentary We Are Many,

:18:10.:18:14.

And remember, we're still ignoring you all on the Twitter,

:18:15.:18:20.

and Gordon Brown's International Superhighway.

:18:21.:18:29.

Now, we take our duties of impartiality seriously

:18:30.:18:31.

What other programme would allow shirts like this on air?

:18:32.:18:38.

But it turns out we've been getting it all wrong!

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Yes, apparently, the BBC's been too impartial over its reporting of

:18:42.:18:49.

So now that we can say what we like, the first thing I'd like to point

:18:50.:18:56.

out is that there's absolutely nothing like the cool,

:18:57.:18:59.

refreshing taste of sweet sparkling German wine.

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Talking of fizz, we sent the Spectator's Isabel Hardman down

:19:05.:19:07.

to Wimbledon for her roundup of the week and a well-deserved

:19:08.:19:10.

Yes, definitely hard at work in the lobby.

:19:11.:19:26.

No, no-one has resigned yet, but I will keep you updated if

:19:27.:19:30.

Sometimes you just have to get out of the Westminster bubble.

:19:31.:19:49.

These days, politics is an awful lot like tennis.

:19:50.:19:52.

You never quite know who's going to turn up on court.

:19:53.:19:55.

Top seeds have crashed out, the bookies are scrabbling to find

:19:56.:19:58.

new odds, and on Monday it was the turn of wild card

:19:59.:20:01.

Nigel Farage to throw down his racket again.

:20:02.:20:05.

During the referendum campaign I said I want my country back.

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What I'm saying today is I want my life back,

:20:12.:20:14.

Farage's resignation did surprise many political pundits,

:20:15.:20:20.

mainly because he actually seems determined to stick to it,

:20:21.:20:23.

The Ukip star player may have been the first to drop out this week

:20:24.:20:28.

Over on Centre Court, the play was about

:20:29.:20:32.

Against the odds, Theresa May is now the number-one seed

:20:33.:20:41.

But as a Remainer, her road to the title is hardly a safe

:20:42.:20:45.

So she and her supporters have decided to take

:20:46.:20:50.

As part of the negotiation we will to look at this question

:20:51.:20:55.

of people who are here in the UK from the EU, and I want to ensure

:20:56.:20:59.

that we are able to not just guarantee the position for those

:21:00.:21:02.

people but guarantee the position for British citizens

:21:03.:21:05.

who are in other member states in other countries in

:21:06.:21:07.

But some, like the unseeded Andrea Leadsom, saw this

:21:08.:21:11.

I commit today to guaranteeing the rights of our EU friends

:21:12.:21:19.

who have already come here to live and work.

:21:20.:21:25.

It was a good return, but there are still questions

:21:26.:21:27.

And just how united are the Leave side anyway?

:21:28.:21:31.

The mixed doubles are fighting to be number-two seed and even get

:21:32.:21:34.

The result of round one was pretty much as expected,

:21:35.:21:43.

although it eliminated not just one but two contestants.

:21:44.:21:46.

I will be lending my wholehearted support to Theresa May.

:21:47.:21:53.

Rumours started to fly of dirty tricks.

:21:54.:21:57.

Perhaps some of Michael Gove's supporters were trying to convince

:21:58.:22:00.

those who backed Mrs May to lend him their support in order

:22:01.:22:03.

to get him onto the ballot and keep Andrea Leadsom,

:22:04.:22:06.

who might prove more popular with Conservative activists

:22:07.:22:11.

We scarcely had a breather before it was on to the semifinals.

:22:12.:22:18.

We always knew that Theresa May was going to make it all the way

:22:19.:22:21.

But who was she going to end up playing?

:22:22.:22:25.

Therefore, Michael Gove, having the lowest number of votes,

:22:26.:22:34.

Whoever the next Prime Minister of this country will be,

:22:35.:22:42.

it will be a female Prime Minister, and a female Prime Minister who has

:22:43.:22:46.

formidable skills, and I know whichever one of the two wins,

:22:47.:22:49.

Politics was on the verge of returning to business as usual,

:22:50.:22:54.

but on Wednesday that long-awaited Chilcot report was published,

:22:55.:22:58.

to remind us, if the referendum hadn't already, that politics

:22:59.:23:01.

Sir John was deeply critical of the case that had been

:23:02.:23:05.

We have concluded that the UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before

:23:06.:23:15.

the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted.

:23:16.:23:19.

Military action at that time was not a last resort.

:23:20.:23:25.

The debate in the Commons seemed measured, muted even.

:23:26.:23:28.

MPs did not really want to shout all round, but instead talked

:23:29.:23:31.

about the lessons governments needed to learn to stop something

:23:32.:23:34.

But for many, especially the families, there was only one

:23:35.:23:38.

I express more sorrow, regret and apology then you may ever

:23:39.:23:49.

There were no lies, there was no deceit,

:23:50.:23:55.

there was no deception, but there was a decision.

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A decision to remove Saddam and a decision to be with America.

:23:59.:24:04.

Tony Blair seems genuinely tormented by the aftermath of the Iraq War.

:24:05.:24:09.

In hoarse tones, at his two-hour press conference after the report

:24:10.:24:12.

was published, he pleaded with those listening to believe

:24:13.:24:15.

It's almost as though Sir John's criticisms

:24:16.:24:19.

of Tony Blair's Government, or his failure to stand up

:24:20.:24:22.

to George Bush on important points, was less important than that people

:24:23.:24:26.

believe the former Prime Minister had acted in good faith.

:24:27.:24:31.

Jeremy Corbyn later apologised for Labour's role in the Iraq War.

:24:32.:24:35.

He went much further in a speech outside of Parliament

:24:36.:24:37.

and in his response to David Cameron in the Commons.

:24:38.:24:41.

So I now apologise sincerely on behalf of my party

:24:42.:24:44.

for the disastrous decision to go to war in Iraq.

:24:45.:24:48.

The apology is owed first to all the people of Iraq,

:24:49.:24:50.

hundreds of thousands of lives lost, and the country is still living

:24:51.:24:54.

with the devastating consequences of war and the forces it unleashed.

:24:55.:25:03.

At the end of the week, where does this leave

:25:04.:25:05.

Well, Jeremy Corbyn is definitely still hanging

:25:06.:25:07.

Well, some of them are getting rather nervous, but others

:25:08.:25:13.

are arguing, "We just need to hold firm until Corbyn crumbles."

:25:14.:25:15.

But currently, no play is scheduled for this court.

:25:16.:25:23.

So perhaps after this week, politics will settle down a bit.

:25:24.:25:26.

What this country needs is something to cheer it up,

:25:27.:25:29.

Theresa May against Andrea Leadsom, is that a choice of which the Tories

:25:30.:25:58.

can be proud? Andrea Leadsom is so untested, it would be a tremendous

:25:59.:26:02.

risk, especially in the present circumstances. I voted for Brexit,

:26:03.:26:08.

but I don't hold back from saying that we are in a perilous situation.

:26:09.:26:13.

I would want to see the person of the greatest possible experience,

:26:14.:26:17.

who had been tested and most exposed over a long period of time in that

:26:18.:26:22.

role. The election when it goes to the grassroots will be between

:26:23.:26:28.

Tories who take Michael's view, somebody with experience, Theresa

:26:29.:26:32.

May, but on the other hand most voters voted for Brexit, they will

:26:33.:26:39.

want somebody who was a Leaver. Absolutely. It will be fascinating

:26:40.:26:45.

and nail-biting, because it is about who is the next Prime Minister, a

:26:46.:26:52.

serious job interview. Ken Clarke did Theresa May a huge service this

:26:53.:26:57.

week, being overheard describing her as a difficult woman is bubbly

:26:58.:27:02.

boosting her chances massively, comparing her to Margaret Thatcher,

:27:03.:27:09.

and saying out she is very good, pointing out she is the only grown

:27:10.:27:13.

up in the room, and we have a massive national crisis now, how do

:27:14.:27:18.

we deal with Brexit, who do we appoint as negotiators, to have a

:27:19.:27:22.

colleague point out that you are capable and difficult is a huge

:27:23.:27:31.

boost. The danger, was it not a major mistake to imply that EU

:27:32.:27:34.

citizens already in this country could be a bargaining chip, when

:27:35.:27:44.

even the most rabid of Leavers said, no, of course everybody who is

:27:45.:27:47.

already here can stay? Within 24 hours Theresa May made to U-turns,

:27:48.:27:51.

she rephrased tobogganing counterpoint, and she reneges on the

:27:52.:27:59.

position taken previously about withdrawing from the European Court

:28:00.:28:01.

of Human Rights. She had a pretty difficult period, and Andrea Leadsom

:28:02.:28:07.

has had a difficult period in the debate about her CV. Just at the

:28:08.:28:12.

moment neither one is looking especially shiny. It is causing a

:28:13.:28:18.

lot of concern among EU citizens in this country. That is not fair.

:28:19.:28:27.

Everybody involved in this said that whoever is he stays, even if the

:28:28.:28:30.

Europeans are nasty to us, and identical they will be, but we look

:28:31.:28:35.

after the people who are already here. If she wanted to make it about

:28:36.:28:42.

that, she could not get it through the Commons. It is extraordinarily

:28:43.:28:47.

unlikely he would enter into a decision's situation that was

:28:48.:28:52.

retrospective. That is not how you behave. People have been worried

:28:53.:28:58.

enough to leave. The problem is creating a climate. People get up

:28:59.:29:02.

and think it is not safe anymore and leave. The insecurity for expat

:29:03.:29:11.

Brits abroad and for domestic... It is awful, not knowing your future.

:29:12.:29:16.

No planning and plans being made... We are all agreed. That all Molly is

:29:17.:29:24.

from France, she is from Romania, they are worried now.

:29:25.:29:32.

Have we seen the last of Nigel Farage? I doubt it. I am sure he

:29:33.:29:41.

will be back in some form. Let me say a word about him. Because of the

:29:42.:29:47.

catastrophic blunder committed by David Cameron, Nigel Farage deserves

:29:48.:29:52.

a place in history. He was the man who spooked the Prime Minister. He

:29:53.:29:59.

had a party with zero seats, now one seat, and he spooked the Prime

:30:00.:30:02.

Minister into holding a referendum which the Prime Minister lost. He is

:30:03.:30:06.

responsible for this country leaving the European Union. You are right,

:30:07.:30:11.

but we should not celebrate it. A few years ago, Nigel Farage was the

:30:12.:30:22.

complete bogeyman of British politics. We have now had a week of

:30:23.:30:31.

the most awful xenophobic racism, terrible hate crimes, and I have to

:30:32.:30:39.

say there is a great danger... Where is the evidence of this? The police

:30:40.:30:43.

have been very careful to say there has been an increase in the

:30:44.:30:49.

reporting of these crimes. On the streets of London I have seen and

:30:50.:30:51.

heard things I have never seen and heard before. The danger is when

:30:52.:30:57.

mainstream politicians line up with the hard right, this is what

:30:58.:31:01.

happens. I hope we have seen the back of him. He has been a pollutant

:31:02.:31:07.

to our politics. Ukip might now be a bigger threat to you in the north

:31:08.:31:11.

than it is to the Tories in the South. Why would people keep on

:31:12.:31:17.

voting Ukip? The motivation of people in the North feeling

:31:18.:31:20.

abandoned by the other parties is strong. And they have lost the habit

:31:21.:31:24.

of voting Labour. I think Ukip could clean up in some of those Labour

:31:25.:31:30.

seats. We should not overdo it. We had a general election not long ago

:31:31.:31:33.

and everybody said they would clean up. They did not. They never clean

:31:34.:31:39.

up in general elections. Never. They might do if your party does not get

:31:40.:31:44.

its act together. Over 80% of the PLP have no confidence in Jeremy

:31:45.:31:49.

Corbyn but they have yet to mount a leadership challenge. It is a farce.

:31:50.:31:55.

It is, I am afraid. It is an internet sign war that we should not

:31:56.:31:59.

be having at a time when we should be focusing on the major debate,

:32:00.:32:05.

which is Europe. Certainly, this has dragged on now for... That is just

:32:06.:32:11.

sloganising. The Labour Party cannot get rid of its leader when you have

:32:12.:32:15.

the present electoral system. And you can't get rid of the electoral

:32:16.:32:18.

system unless the Labour Party splits and the moderate form a new

:32:19.:32:23.

party. I am deeply worried that we actually have three parties. We have

:32:24.:32:29.

a northern party that would like to be far harder line on immigration, a

:32:30.:32:33.

London Liberal left party, led by Jeremy, and a centre party, maybe

:32:34.:32:39.

Chuka Umunna is the leader, that could probably join with the Tories.

:32:40.:32:44.

Which one are you in? I am not joining any tribes. That is why I

:32:45.:32:48.

have focused on the main thing, Brexit. You want us to rerun the

:32:49.:32:55.

referendum because you did not get your results. I have simply pointed

:32:56.:32:59.

out that round about 37% of the country voted for this. The economy

:33:00.:33:08.

is going south. 52% voted to come out. On the 70% turnout, if you

:33:09.:33:12.

combine those that stayed at home and those that voted to stay, it is

:33:13.:33:18.

about that is percent. If you go along with that argument, Ukip will

:33:19.:33:23.

sweep you in the north. They will wipe you out if you count like that.

:33:24.:33:29.

There is a reason why, when making becomes the Jewish law change, you

:33:30.:33:33.

have a two thirds majority. Why did you not do that. The? This was not

:33:34.:33:38.

my referendum, it was David Cameron's. When Scotland voted for

:33:39.:33:46.

its own parliament it did not have a two thirds majority. Cameron

:33:47.:33:50.

introduced this referendum. We had a referendum on Europe. The irony is

:33:51.:33:56.

that those who want Brexit once sovereignty back, but why do we

:33:57.:33:59.

believe in a sovereign parliament? Good luck on that. Nigel Farage

:34:00.:34:04.

could well come back if Labour take that line. We have run out of time,

:34:05.:34:08.

Miranda. Oui sad. Nice to see you. Now, it's no secret that most

:34:09.:34:14.

of our BBC colleagues would like to see the back of us,

:34:15.:34:17.

to be replaced with something far They claim my appeal is far too

:34:18.:34:20.

narrow, that David Lammy isn't up to the job,

:34:21.:34:23.

and that Michael Portillo's dress And whilst they may have a point

:34:24.:34:26.

about Michael, we don't rely on the approval of Dimbleby,

:34:27.:34:30.

Humphries and Marr for our leadership position in BBC current

:34:31.:34:33.

affairs, because our mandate comes And you can't argue with last

:34:34.:34:35.

week's record 1.3 million And that's why we're putting "people

:34:36.:34:39.

power" in this week's Spotlight. If there are 500,000 on that march,

:34:40.:34:48.

that is still less than the number of deaths Saddam has

:34:49.:34:51.

been responsible for. Marching in their millions,

:34:52.:34:56.

they failed to stop But did these protesters still send

:34:57.:35:01.

a signal that politics was entering a new era when ordinary folks

:35:02.:35:07.

demanded their voices to be heard? That's a question asked

:35:08.:35:13.

by documentary We Are Many, exec produced by

:35:14.:35:16.

comedian Omid Djalili. It claims the global anti-war

:35:17.:35:20.

protest mobilised millions and forced people power

:35:21.:35:23.

to be taken seriously. If you keep coming back, at some

:35:24.:35:27.

point you will make the change. Much easier these days,

:35:28.:35:33.

thanks, of course, to the Twitter Only nine months ago I was very

:35:34.:35:36.

honoured to be elected leader I am carrying on with

:35:37.:35:41.

that responsibility. People power can certainly

:35:42.:35:48.

influence Labour politics. Jeremy Corbyn insists the support

:35:49.:35:50.

of party members gives him the mandate to remain as leader,

:35:51.:35:53.

even if his parliamentary colleagues A giant democratic experiment

:35:54.:35:56.

in which over 17 million Brits decided we should

:35:57.:36:06.

leave the European Union. It seems you can't ignore

:36:07.:36:11.

the will of the people. So are politicians finally starting

:36:12.:36:14.

to learn that? Olic Lily joins us. Most people know

:36:15.:36:31.

you as a comedian. -- on the Ed Joe Lily. Omid Djalili. I came across a

:36:32.:36:51.

kick-start on Twitter and it was an old school friend who was a

:36:52.:36:56.

director. I got on board and we have been on this amazing journey for the

:36:57.:36:59.

last five years putting this film together and promoting it, and it

:37:00.:37:04.

has been a tremendous eye-opener. I love the way you are talking about

:37:05.:37:08.

people power, trying to crowbar things like Brexit into it. That is

:37:09.:37:12.

just a split, not people power. That is just 52% versus 48%. You are also

:37:13.:37:20.

trying to bring in Jeremy Corbyn, and that narrative is basically

:37:21.:37:23.

people saying he has to leave, and the silent majority not protesting

:37:24.:37:29.

to keep him in. So when people march on the streets it is people power,

:37:30.:37:33.

but when they vote at the ballot box, that is not people power? I

:37:34.:37:41.

thought our film was about people power, but that particular

:37:42.:37:44.

demonstration, a global demonstration... It is interesting,

:37:45.:37:48.

we had John Prescott who saw the movie. I had done a TV commercial

:37:49.:37:53.

with him so we were friendly. He said, I have seen the film. He said,

:37:54.:38:00.

bearing in mind we were in the Cabinet deciding on these things and

:38:01.:38:03.

we knew there was a demonstration of a million people but we had no idea

:38:04.:38:09.

of the scale. 800 cities globally, 30 million people. He said, things

:38:10.:38:12.

might have been different. But even that did not stop the war. So our

:38:13.:38:17.

film is talking about this whole paradigms, where we have to look at

:38:18.:38:20.

the relationship between the individual, community, which is

:38:21.:38:26.

humanity, and institutions. If 30 million people protest now against

:38:27.:38:30.

something and they are ignored, basically we are ignoring the second

:38:31.:38:36.

superpower, global public opinion. I am completely mystified by this. 1

:38:37.:38:39.

million people marched in Britain, if that is what it was. It was a

:38:40.:38:44.

small minority of the British people. At the time, opinion polls

:38:45.:38:47.

showed the British people were in favour of the Iraq war. At the

:38:48.:38:51.

subsequent election, Tony Blair was returned with a handsome majority.

:38:52.:38:57.

What is your point? 1.5 million people is not an expression of

:38:58.:39:01.

people power, but a demonstration by a very small minority. It is a large

:39:02.:39:06.

demonstration. It was a minority that failed because they had no

:39:07.:39:11.

plan. Like we were saying with Brexit, we voted for it but there is

:39:12.:39:15.

no plan. Why should a minority succeed? I am not saying they should

:39:16.:39:23.

succeed. You say it failed, but why should it succeed? It failed because

:39:24.:39:27.

the war took place. I call that failure, don't you? The point of the

:39:28.:39:33.

film is to show the legacy of that, because it inspired the Arab Spring.

:39:34.:39:38.

For many people, they were proved right. At the end of the day, yes.

:39:39.:39:44.

Those who marched were not normal lefties and students but Middle

:39:45.:39:49.

England, Middle Scotland, Middle Wales, the general populace saying,

:39:50.:39:54.

we don't want to see war. When you say they marched, that is an

:39:55.:39:57.

exaggeration. It was a warm afternoon and people took a stroll

:39:58.:40:01.

in the park. They did not make any self-sacrifice, did not do anything

:40:02.:40:06.

that demanded great effort, did not put themselves in peril or danger,

:40:07.:40:09.

they did not lie down in front of tanks. They took a stroll in the

:40:10.:40:14.

park on Sunday afternoon. For many people it was more than that. Let me

:40:15.:40:21.

bring in David. Given that many conclude that the march was

:40:22.:40:26.

vindicated, they were right and the government was wrong, even so, is

:40:27.:40:32.

the number of people marching the right way to determine policy?

:40:33.:40:37.

Because I could show you pictures of massive crowds outside Buckingham

:40:38.:40:39.

Palace when Chamberlain came back from Munich with peace in our time,

:40:40.:40:44.

and everybody was in favour of it on the streets. That turned out not to

:40:45.:40:52.

be right. I remember my friends marching and saying, we marched and

:40:53.:40:57.

no one listened. I took them back to civil rights and reminded them that

:40:58.:41:01.

the listening does not necessarily come instantaneously. And it is the

:41:02.:41:06.

case that this week largely those that were marching against the Iraq

:41:07.:41:11.

war have been vindicated. I might say also on Saturday there were

:41:12.:41:16.

50,000 people marching because of wrecks it, and communicating their

:41:17.:41:22.

deep concern. How many of them do you think had voted? I wish many of

:41:23.:41:29.

them have marched before. Many of them had never been on a march

:41:30.:41:34.

before, were not terribly political, just deeply concerned. Where does

:41:35.:41:43.

this go, from the lesson of 2003? I understand what Michael Portillo was

:41:44.:41:46.

saying, that they did not achieve anything, but there is a voice of

:41:47.:41:50.

people... White macro it laid down a marker. At the end of the day, we

:41:51.:41:57.

look at the Chilcot report and that says we need to take greater care

:41:58.:42:00.

with war. That is the biggest oxymoron, a caring war. People were

:42:01.:42:06.

saying, we do not want war. There was a tremendous outpouring of

:42:07.:42:10.

empathy. We knew the people of Iraq would suffer. People were saying, we

:42:11.:42:14.

do not want people suffering, killed. The human body is one. When

:42:15.:42:19.

you stub your toe, the furthest apart from your brain, you want the

:42:20.:42:24.

pain to go away. Those demonstrations were saying, we will

:42:25.:42:27.

starve our toe, and then the whole of the body was affected. Now we are

:42:28.:42:33.

in a much worse situation. You have done this documentary and you are

:42:34.:42:39.

still on tour. After being really serious, I am going back to the

:42:40.:42:42.

Edinburgh Festival and a massive tour. Good to see you, and good luck

:42:43.:42:47.

with the documentary. Thank you. That's your lot for tonight,

:42:48.:42:50.

folks, but not for us, because it's Deficit Reduction Night

:42:51.:42:53.

at Lou Lou's and we're off to dance on the grave of the Government's

:42:54.:42:56.

quietly-shelved key economic policy. But we leave you tonight

:42:57.:42:58.

with a ridiculous display of people power when this morning almost two

:42:59.:43:01.

dozen Andrea Leadsom ultras marched on Westminster,

:43:02.:43:03.

calling for the former Governor of the Bank of England to be

:43:04.:43:05.

made Prime Minister. According to the Met,

:43:06.:43:08.

"organisers of public processions are required by law to notify police

:43:09.:43:10.

at least six days before the event occurs of the date, time,

:43:11.:43:13.

proposed route and name I'm not sure Andrea's

:43:14.:43:16.

law-breaking campaign manager, MP Tim Loughton, did any of this,

:43:17.:43:21.

so I'm sure Officer Dibble will be Nighty night, don't let Andrea's

:43:22.:43:24.

fantastic CV bite. # And the world can't

:43:25.:43:30.

erase his fantasies # All your dreams will

:43:31.:43:44.

come true right away # Our voices will ring

:43:45.:44:07.

forever as one...#

:44:08.:44:14.

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