20/04/2017 This Week


20/04/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by Chuka Umunna, Ann Widdecombe, Miranda Green and Suzanne Evans to review the last few days in politics.


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Transcript


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Are you excited about the general election?

:00:00.:00:00.

Tonight, on This Week's countdown, the clock is ticking down

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to yet another big vote, a general election.

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But can the pro-Europeans do what some say is impossible

:00:26.:00:27.

and, even now, rewrite the plan for Brexit?

:00:28.:00:34.

The general election is not going to reverse us leaving the EU,

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but we must support those MPs who are going to stand up

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The biggest brain in the universe attempts to solve the election

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countdown conundrum with his sonic screwdriver.

:00:48.:00:52.

There's a serious fault with the space-time continuum.

:00:53.:00:56.

Could this be the end of politics as we know it?

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I'm sorry, there'll be no points for spelling Big Narstie like that.

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I think all politicians are the same.

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Do you think the general election's going to change anything?

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It's going to be the greatest contest yet.

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So let's join tonight's host - oh, that's me, Andrew Neil!

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Hold it up to the light - not a brain in sight,

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We leave you to your own admittedly limited devices for two weeks

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The Prime Minister had categorically assured us -

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six times - there would be no election before 2020.

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So naturally she called one the moment our backs were turned.

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Who woulda thunk it - a politician saying one

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By the time we got back, old Jezza had morphed into Blighty's

:01:54.:01:57.

answer to Cesar Chavez - without the oil or the sun -

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the Lib Dems were predicting the biggest comeback

:02:02.:02:04.

since Fleetwood Mac reformed in 1997, and Arron Banks said he'd

:02:05.:02:08.

be Ukip's candidate in Clacton, just as soon as he can

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Meanwhile, Uncle Nige decided against an eighth failed

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bid to become an MP - Fox News is so much more

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fun and lucrative - and Boy George finally worked out

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that editing a newspaper is actually a full-time job.

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Pity that didn't dawn on him when he was running the economy.

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Here at This Week, we've reached peak apathy,

:02:29.:02:30.

so much so that most of the team hasn't even bothered to turn up.

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That's right - no sad man on a train, no

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Instead I'm joined by the replacement bus services

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of late-night political chat, our very own coalition of chaos,

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Chuka #smoothoperator Umunna and Ann #ChaChaCha Widdecombe.

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Welcome to you both. What did you think when you heard the election? I

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wouldn't have done it at this time. I thought we should have another

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year getting Brexit to be fully accepted, people just realising that

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that was the way we were going to go. I feel was always if we had it

:03:11.:03:14.

too soon it would turn into a second referendum, but nevertheless, she

:03:15.:03:16.

has called it. I don't think there's any doubt about what the outcome is

:03:17.:03:21.

going to be. She's going to win it. So I'm getting ready to get behind

:03:22.:03:27.

them. What did you think, what was your reaction? Two things. I think

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most people in Westminster, most parliamentarians on both sides of a

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House Fortis nose cone to be a general election there would have

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been an announcement before the Easter recess and people thought the

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moment have passed, so there were quite stunned, on Tuesday. A second

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thought was, well, why is she doing it? This whole thing about there's

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disunity in the House of Commons on Brexit and we need unity, I mean,

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very rarely as their unity on major issues in the House of Commons. The

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purpose of the Commons is not really... That's right, a healthy

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democracy, you need that contest of ideas. But really I think what this

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is about, she imposing very much as a kind of Margaret Thatcher type

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figure and Prime Minister and I think she's terrified of becoming

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John Major, and I think she could see with a small majority that she

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would become John Major on steroids, in terms of being weak and ending up

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with a battle going on internally and her party and I think she's

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gambling on a more moderate set of... Not much of a gamble, is it?

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Well... Do you get my drift? She's gambling on more moderate, less

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Eurosceptic MPs coming in to give her more flexibility, perhaps. And

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getting her own mandate is something to do with it, these lines.

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So, the lady IS for turning after all.

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The PM says she needs a mandate to overcome resistance -

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from the Lords to the Lib Dems - to her Brexit strategy.

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Obviously, the Tories' stonking lead in the polls played no part

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Mrs May hopes for a huge endorsement of what she means by Brexit.

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Is this the last hurrah for the Remainers and do they have

:05:07.:05:09.

any hope of stopping Brexit in its tracks?

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Here's Gina Miller with her take of the week.

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Brexitland a few years down the track - worse off,

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deserted by foreign workers and without the great

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Theresa May says she's called this election to ensure there is unity

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in Westminster and no turning back on Brexit.

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But, as my court victory showed, the referendum didn't hand

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the Prime Minister a blank cheque, and nor should this election,

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especially as we don't know the terms of the deal yet.

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The Government must not be allowed to succeed in killing off

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In an ideal world, we'll have time to put together

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a progressive alliance, but there simply isn't that time.

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That's why I am part of a crowd-funded tactical voting

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campaign, hoping to endorse those who are opposed to a hard Brexit.

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We are hoping to back a wide slate of candidates who we can trust

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will back a meaningful vote at the end of the negotiations.

:06:35.:06:44.

So many MPs are against Brexit but can't speak up

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But now is not the time to keep quiet.

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In fact, if the ultimate deal leaves us worse off than we are today,

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MPs must feel empowered to reject it.

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This election is going to be more important than any in living memory.

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It's the one that's going to be talked about in the pubs.

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It will be about Brexit, so I urge you, look closely

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at what the candidates say on the issue,

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and vote for the one who stands on principle

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Thanks to Apocalypse Events - The Village.

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Welcome to the programme. You said at the end there, talking about

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voting for people who do the best for Britain, but that's just code

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for wanting to vote for people who. Brexit, isn't it? We're not talking

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about stopping Brexit. It's what you want to do. No, it's not. If you

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stand back from the emotion of it all, it's pure logic and common

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sense that there are all options on the table and there are broadly

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three options. One is for a fantastic deal, where everyone gets

:08:10.:08:13.

what they want. The second is WTO, which the government itself has

:08:14.:08:18.

accepted is far more, located than they first envisaged, and the third

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is looking at if we would be better off remaining. Now anybody who

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says... But you want to remain. I was never four remain or leave, it

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was about remaining if that was the best option. You calculated to

:08:32.:08:36.

thwart Brexit. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a democracy. You can

:08:37.:08:42.

support whatever you want. But why not just admit it, instead of having

:08:43.:08:47.

these other motives over it? I love that you know what's in my mind,

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because it's not. It's quite easy to the! You just talked about a

:08:52.:08:57.

country, we will be deserted by foreign workers. That was how you

:08:58.:09:00.

opened your piece. You think we are going to hell in a handbasket. No,

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I'm interested in the facts, not the emotions of any of this. Why will we

:09:06.:09:10.

be deserted by foreign workers? We can already see if you are not going

:09:11.:09:13.

to have access to free movement there will be a problem. Why will we

:09:14.:09:19.

be deserted by foreign workers by leaving the EU? Because we won't

:09:20.:09:24.

have free movement. Deserted means all the people who are already here

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will leave, why? The experience I've had since I started my court case,

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there's an air around people the UK where they feel... They haven't left

:09:34.:09:39.

yet. The point is, that that phrase, deserted by foreign workers, Britain

:09:40.:09:42.

much poorer, it shows what you really think. It's a perfectly

:09:43.:09:45.

legitimate point of view. But you don't seem to want to be honest

:09:46.:09:51.

enough to admit that is what you -- your game plan is. I'm honest enough

:09:52.:09:56.

to say nobody has a future. You said we'll be deserted by foreign

:09:57.:10:00.

workers. That's a possibility and already we see people feeling they

:10:01.:10:05.

are not welcome here and that somehow... Who's not welcome here? I

:10:06.:10:09.

get thousands and thousands of messages and phone calls from people

:10:10.:10:13.

saying they feel no longer welcome. That's because you've taken a high

:10:14.:10:17.

profile position. I get that all the time, on things as well. Yellow

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Babineaux, I'm not talking about the attacks. Verbal attacks. I'm talking

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about people's experiences of how they feel. They feel they are no

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longer welcomed here, they feel this is not the country they thought this

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was. All right, what do you make of Gina's tactical voting plan? First

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of all, to talk about a Brexit that's not really a Brexit is a

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complete nonsense. We cannot continue to be governed by EU laws,

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remain subject to free movement of labour and have that qualifies for

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the title of Brexit. It's one all other. I share Andrew's view, for

:10:56.:11:02.

goodness' sake, say what you mean, which is that you want to remain.

:11:03.:11:06.

Let's have that debate. My worry always was this was going to turn

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into a second referendum. There are other issues which we ought to be

:11:10.:11:13.

discussing, but that wasn't the question you ask me. It was about

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tactical voting. Yes, will it work? It generally doesn't. You always get

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some uptake but it generally doesn't and time I hear there's going to be

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tactical voting, there's going to be alliances, people joining in favour

:11:29.:11:31.

other people, it doesn't actually happen because the campus is so

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broad in the end people are not just deciding on Brexit, however

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important it is. Would you really vote for Corbyn just because there's

:11:40.:11:42.

a pro-remain candidate there? You won't. Mr Corbyn is not

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overwhelmingly pro-remain, as we can see. That wasn't my point. Should

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there not be a referendum on the final deal? I have to say I'm not

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the biggest fan of referenda, partly because I think people elect members

:12:01.:12:06.

of Parliament to give effect to their wishes, and I think we saw

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with the referendum and the triggering of Article 50, the

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difficulties for members of parliament when they are juxtaposed

:12:14.:12:17.

against a direct democratic popular vote, so personally I would rather

:12:18.:12:20.

it was members of Parliament voting on it. So it goes to the Commons,

:12:21.:12:25.

rather than to a referendum? Yes, because we are elected to do a job.

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I think what Gina is doing is very interesting and actually very

:12:32.:12:36.

helpful in the context of this selection, for people who, you know,

:12:37.:12:40.

are part of that 48% who want to know where different MPs stand on

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things and I think what your project is going to help voters do is be

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able to identify whether you've got somebody who is in favour of a soft

:12:47.:12:55.

Brexit, or... What's a soft Brexit? There are two ways, this is my

:12:56.:12:58.

subjective analysis of it, I note Ann has a different... I'm asking

:12:59.:13:05.

your opinion. You can withdraw from the EU in an extreme way... Lots of

:13:06.:13:13.

soft Brexit? My definition would be we remain a member of the single

:13:14.:13:18.

market. We would be subject to the European Union... That's right. Hang

:13:19.:13:25.

on, let me finish, a lot is made at that point but if we want to

:13:26.:13:29.

continue trading with the European Union the agreement will be be

:13:30.:13:34.

governed by some other authority and, but also, Andrew, if we want to

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continue trading into the European Union leavers and Remainers are both

:13:42.:13:44.

saying, we're going to have to comply with the standards and rules.

:13:45.:13:49.

We have to do that to export to America. Last time I looked, there

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is no freedom of movement between Britain and America. Let me come

:13:54.:13:56.

back to Gina Miller. Would you like a referendum when, if and when,

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there's a deal done? I think it should be up to the MPs,

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because we have a Parliamentary democracy, not a direct democracy.

:14:10.:14:14.

If we elect MPs, they should be able to vote, to have a meaningful vote

:14:15.:14:19.

on whatever the deal is. They are. We don't know that. Output a

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government stop them? If you look at the government's copybook on using

:14:27.:14:32.

Article 50, in my case, they tried to bypass Parliament, so how do we

:14:33.:14:37.

know they won't do that again? The government has said it is

:14:38.:14:40.

inconceivable for the European Parliament to have a vote but not

:14:41.:14:45.

the British Parliament. Mrs May has promised there will be a vote on a

:14:46.:14:50.

hard deal or no deal. That isn't meaningful. A meaningful vote is a

:14:51.:14:52.

vote on all the options available to MPs. A meaningful vote is, this is

:14:53.:14:59.

the deal that has been negotiated, and there will be only one deal

:15:00.:15:03.

negotiated at the end, and do we accept that or not? That is the only

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question that can be asked, because there is no other deal. There are

:15:08.:15:14.

three options, not two. Another way is to give Parliament a vote

:15:15.:15:19.

earlier, so it can say to the Prime Minister, go back... It can tie the

:15:20.:15:24.

Prime Minister's and in negotiations. That is all right,

:15:25.:15:30.

isn't it? I disagree with this notion. Can I come on a different

:15:31.:15:34.

tack? The interesting thing is the extent to which the general election

:15:35.:15:39.

will be governed by this issue, or weather, by the end of this

:15:40.:15:43.

seven-week period... But that is economic competence... The reason we

:15:44.:15:49.

have Gina Miller tonight, it has been a legitimate criticism from the

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Remain side that country voted to leave but the actual shape of

:15:58.:16:01.

leaving wasn't clear for the people had different views about it. Mrs

:16:02.:16:04.

Majors herself was a remainder. If she now campaigns for Brexit in this

:16:05.:16:12.

election campaign, which she says is her position, leaving membership of

:16:13.:16:17.

the single market, we want to leave the customs union and get out of the

:16:18.:16:21.

European court, we want an end of freedom of movement, and if she wins

:16:22.:16:26.

the election on a big mandate, she has got a negotiating mandate to

:16:27.:16:30.

that, hasn't she? Absolutely. Of course there wouldn't be a problem.

:16:31.:16:37.

So what is the point of this progressive alliance? Because we are

:16:38.:16:41.

talking about ensuring there isn't this huge mandate. The options, as

:16:42.:16:44.

far as we see it, is that you have... You look back to what was

:16:45.:16:49.

said in 1983, an elected majority is almost an elected dictatorship and

:16:50.:16:57.

that is a game we are saying... But it has been speculated that it would

:16:58.:17:04.

be too big. But you would accept, because she will have to spell out

:17:05.:17:11.

what her negotiating position is,... All of the manifestos will. If she

:17:12.:17:16.

gets a mandate, that visit, she has got the mandate to negotiate on that

:17:17.:17:21.

basis. She does, but no Prime Minister is above the law and if, in

:17:22.:17:25.

18 months, five years, whenever it is that the Prime Minister comes

:17:26.:17:29.

back with the negotiated and doesn't give Parliament a full, meaningful

:17:30.:17:33.

vote, then we may have to seek the advice of the courts on whether she

:17:34.:17:40.

is allowed to do that. Back to the courts. Nobody is above the law. I

:17:41.:17:45.

understand that but, if you don't think ring or interfering with the

:17:46.:17:52.

democratic process into a democratic copy? When is it my hobby and when

:17:53.:17:59.

am I a rich woman? I have a democratic -- I have significant day

:18:00.:18:02.

jobs. This isn't a hobby. I have done this for nearly a decade and is

:18:03.:18:06.

it OK that, if I am rich because I have owned my own money, that I

:18:07.:18:11.

might use its...? I am wondering if it is your hobby. Absolutely not.

:18:12.:18:18.

When you did the court case at the beginning, you said you just wanted

:18:19.:18:21.

the court case to rule on whether the Commons at a vote. It was about

:18:22.:18:28.

democracy. But now you are talking about 80 metric -- Democratic

:18:29.:18:33.

Alliance. It is still about democracy. It has given you a new

:18:34.:18:38.

purpose in life. It's the same purpose, that everybody has the duty

:18:39.:18:42.

to stand up they believe in. Gina Miller, thank you. I think we will

:18:43.:18:44.

see you again. Now, it's late - stand down

:18:45.:18:45.

as a Labour MP late - but fear not, because waiting

:18:46.:18:48.

in the wings is grime I listen to his choonz

:18:49.:18:51.

every day and ting. He's here putting apathy

:18:52.:18:54.

in our Spotlight, innit. So get on dem social

:18:55.:18:56.

media vibes, fam. Get tweet twerking, because we've

:18:57.:19:01.

had enough snap for one week. Now, it's generally accepted that

:19:02.:19:06.

comrade Corbyn is facing the electoral uphill struggle

:19:07.:19:10.

of a lifetime. One recent poll puts Labour 24

:19:11.:19:12.

points behind the Tories. But Jezza is no

:19:13.:19:15.

stranger to long odds. After all, nobody ever thought

:19:16.:19:16.

he'd be Labour leader. They are the peak of

:19:17.:19:20.

political science - Here's Gyles Brandreth with his

:19:21.:19:23.

round-up of the political week. Westminster has been

:19:24.:19:32.

rocked to the core. News of a shock contest,

:19:33.:19:51.

a battle so exciting, it has torn Who will be chosen

:19:52.:19:56.

as the new Doctor Who? I have just chaired a meeting

:19:57.:20:08.

of the Cabinet where we agreed that the government should call

:20:09.:20:22.

a general election to be It will be a choice between strong

:20:23.:20:24.

and stable leadership in the national interest,

:20:25.:20:32.

with me as your Prime Minister, or weak and unstable

:20:33.:20:36.

coalition government, led by Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:37.:20:38.

propped up by the Liberal Democrats, who want to reopen the divisions

:20:39.:20:42.

of the referendum, I can jump forward to

:20:43.:20:46.

when the whole thing is over. I knew I shouldn't have let Michael

:20:47.:21:02.

loose with the sonic screwdriver. No one saw the PM's move coming,

:21:03.:21:06.

least of all the Labour Party. I welcome the opportunity for us

:21:07.:21:09.

to put the case to the people of Britain, to stand up against this

:21:10.:21:17.

government and its failed economic agenda, which has left our NHS

:21:18.:21:20.

and problems, which has left our schools are underfunded,

:21:21.:21:24.

which has left some We want to put a case out

:21:25.:21:31.

there for the people of Britain of a society

:21:32.:21:35.

that cares for all. With Labour trailing 20%

:21:36.:21:37.

in the polls, Jeremy Corbyn has Not least with convincing

:21:38.:21:39.

some of his own party. The rest of the opposition sounded

:21:40.:22:07.

more up for the fight. It's an opportunity for the people

:22:08.:22:14.

of this country to change the direction of this country,

:22:15.:22:17.

to decide that they do not they want to keep Britain

:22:18.:22:20.

in the single market and indeed it's an opportunity for us

:22:21.:22:27.

to have a decent strong opposition in this country

:22:28.:22:29.

that we desperately need. Things happen very

:22:30.:22:31.

quickly and there could We are already polling

:22:32.:22:33.

more highly than we were at the time

:22:34.:22:37.

of the 2015 general election. Clearly she sees the opportunity,

:22:38.:22:40.

given the disarray in the Labour Party,

:22:41.:22:42.

to crush all opposition to her, to get rid of people who disagree

:22:43.:22:45.

with her, and to give herself a free hand to take

:22:46.:22:49.

the country in the increasingly right-wing direction

:22:50.:22:52.

she wants to take it in. I relish the prospect of getting out

:22:53.:22:56.

there, standing up for Scotland's interests and values,

:22:57.:22:58.

standing up for Scotland's voice Cool, calculating, stripped

:22:59.:23:02.

of all emotion, hell-bent Britain is leaving

:23:03.:23:13.

the European Union, I have set out the divisions

:23:14.:23:18.

that have become They can and will be used

:23:19.:23:29.

against us, weakening our hand in the negotiations to come

:23:30.:23:36.

and we must not let that happen. And that's why it's the right

:23:37.:23:39.

and responsible thing for all of us here today to vote

:23:40.:23:41.

for a general election. The Commons passed the PM's

:23:42.:23:46.

Bill resoundingly. With opposition like that, Mrs May

:23:47.:23:48.

really does need a mandate to Fighting an election was one job too

:23:49.:23:56.

many for George Osborne. But don't worry, Osborne fans,

:23:57.:24:10.

the former Chancellor and Tory election strategist,

:24:11.:24:18.

will, he promises, be putting his oar in from the comfort

:24:19.:24:23.

of the London Evening Standard. Provided he remembers those copy

:24:24.:24:25.

deadlines, of course. Our country has some

:24:26.:24:27.

big decisions to make now about the kind of Britain

:24:28.:24:30.

we want to be, and those values of openness, tolerance,

:24:31.:24:35.

diversity, enterprise, They are ones I fought

:24:36.:24:36.

for in government as Chancellor, fought for in Parliament as the MP

:24:37.:24:41.

for Tatton and now I'm going to fight for them in that editor's

:24:42.:24:44.

chair at the Evening Standard. The PM, the apparently

:24:45.:24:47.

quiet vicar's daughter, has shown her hand and it turns out

:24:48.:24:50.

to be an iron fist in a No opportunity will be given

:24:51.:24:53.

to doubters, no quarter given to the opposition, and definitely

:24:54.:24:57.

no silly TV debates. If the Prime Minister

:24:58.:25:02.

is so confident that her hard Brexit, pro-austerity,

:25:03.:25:04.

anti-immigration case is right, then she should debate it

:25:05.:25:09.

with opposition leaders We look forward to the straight

:25:10.:25:11.

fight between the SNP and Can the Prime Minister tell

:25:12.:25:16.

the people why she's running scared of a televised debate

:25:17.:25:20.

with Nicola Sturgeon? DALEK: Election debate,

:25:21.:25:27.

election debate. Thank very much to The Who Shop

:25:28.:25:35.

in Upton Park, East London, who loaned Gyles their Tardis -

:25:36.:25:46.

and then set their Dalek on him. With me now is the lovely Miranda

:25:47.:26:01.

Green. And Suzanne Evans. Am I not lovely as well? It was meant to

:26:02.:26:09.

cover you both. Chuka Umunna, why is your party 20 points behind in the

:26:10.:26:16.

polls? Well, polls go up and down. Yours just go down. The ultimate one

:26:17.:26:21.

that will matter is how voters cast their votes on the 8th of June. Why

:26:22.:26:27.

are you 20 points behind? We have had a difficult two years, but what

:26:28.:26:33.

you will see the Labour Party doing now, over the next few weeks, is

:26:34.:26:38.

coming together and putting forward as a team and offered to the

:26:39.:26:42.

country. Some of your MPs have said they are standing down. That isn't

:26:43.:26:46.

coming together. That isn't unusual at elections. Ann stood down at

:26:47.:26:55.

election. After 23 years! Some of them have been there that long.

:26:56.:27:01.

However long people have been in, we are sad to lose them. But that's

:27:02.:27:05.

politics. You don't do this job for ever. ... Would Jeremy Corbyn make a

:27:06.:27:12.

good Prime Minister? There is a lot of talk about how difficult this

:27:13.:27:14.

question is for MPs. My answer is simple. I am a Labour MP. It isn't

:27:15.:27:21.

just about... I know you are, I didn't ask you that. Let me finish

:27:22.:27:25.

my sentence. Answer the question! Would he make a good Prime Minister?

:27:26.:27:32.

Reed I want a Labour team and its captain to get into government and I

:27:33.:27:35.

will always think that the team and the captain will be better than a

:27:36.:27:39.

Tory one. That is why I was elected in Streatham. Teams spin doctors

:27:40.:27:45.

were working on that answer. Did this go wrong -- could this go wrong

:27:46.:27:49.

for Theresa May? There are always risks in a general election but the

:27:50.:27:54.

outcome of this one is as certain as any outcome can ever be in a

:27:55.:27:59.

political context. She starts miles ahead in the polls. I'm sorry,

:28:00.:28:02.

Chuka, but Jeremy Corbyn cannot be seen as a realistic PM. I didn't ask

:28:03.:28:09.

you that, because I knew what the answer would be. She is starting

:28:10.:28:13.

with all the advantages. She would need to throw something away for

:28:14.:28:16.

anything to really wrong. Yet have the department of honesty. If the

:28:17.:28:20.

real reason she has called the election? I think she wants to

:28:21.:28:26.

secure a larger majority because I think there will be tough

:28:27.:28:28.

negotiation ahead. And I think she wants to secure a proper majority,

:28:29.:28:34.

and not to be weakened by always been on a knife edge in Parliament.

:28:35.:28:40.

Nothing wrong with that. That was true a month ago, six weeks ago.

:28:41.:28:44.

Yes, and her view was that she wasn't going to have an election.

:28:45.:28:48.

She has obviously reflected on it but I don't go for all this, and it

:28:49.:28:52.

doesn't matter which party the politician is, this business of, oh,

:28:53.:28:57.

it's a U-turn. No, it's a mature reflection which has resulted in a

:28:58.:29:04.

different decision. No, it looks and walks like a U-turn! It's a U-turn!

:29:05.:29:10.

It's the mother of all U-turns! But that is a pejorative way of saying

:29:11.:29:13.

that somebody has just changed their mind. The lady isn't for turning,

:29:14.:29:21.

she can't say that now. This is more John Major than Mrs Thatcher. What

:29:22.:29:25.

macro this is your line? No, I think it is why doing it. With a Lib Dem

:29:26.:29:29.

recovery, what would it look like? It can't get worse than eight seats.

:29:30.:29:41.

2016 was being smashed down onto the floor, so they'll do much better.

:29:42.:29:45.

There is a sort of mood of wanting to take an opportunity to recover to

:29:46.:29:48.

a respectable showing in the Commons and also to kind of capitalise on

:29:49.:29:56.

Labour's weakness, because there are some Labour voters who are willing

:29:57.:30:04.

to vote Lib Dems, but they do have to be able to take this opportunity

:30:05.:30:11.

and it's not dangerous free, but they will improve their showing. And

:30:12.:30:16.

also of course the May local elections might help the Lib Dems,

:30:17.:30:19.

because if they do quite well in the local elections it will give them

:30:20.:30:25.

momentum. Let me bring in Suzanne. This could be the beginning of the

:30:26.:30:29.

four Ukip, couldn't it? It could be the beginning of new beginning as

:30:30.:30:35.

well. We can't do much worse than having non-, which is the position

:30:36.:30:41.

at the moment. Douglas Carswell, probably the first and the last MP

:30:42.:30:46.

of your party? And he could probably not be, let's see what happens. You

:30:47.:30:52.

are not confident, are you? We're not as confident as we were I don't

:30:53.:30:56.

think before the 2015 general election, which was a massive

:30:57.:30:59.

disappointment to us. 4 million votes, one member of Parliament, a

:31:00.:31:04.

brilliant argument if ever there was one for voting reform. For

:31:05.:31:08.

concentrating your resources on this leads you can win. We are having

:31:09.:31:12.

those discussions at the moment, where are target seats are going to

:31:13.:31:17.

be. What's your disagreement with Theresa May? What's Ukip about this

:31:18.:31:23.

time? In terms of Theresa May, let's say she's talking very much in terms

:31:24.:31:28.

of her Brexit vision, but she's not being very clear as well on some

:31:29.:31:31.

other issues and I'm very interested to see what the Tory manifesto is

:31:32.:31:36.

going to be. Her failure... Now you see the problems I have. Indeed, I

:31:37.:31:43.

do. Question is what part of Theresa May's Brexit strategy do you

:31:44.:31:48.

disagree with? Non-, at the moment. So what's the point? The mission she

:31:49.:31:53.

set out is all very well. Ukip is much more than Brexit. It really is.

:31:54.:31:58.

That's obviously what we've been seen... Grammar schools. The

:31:59.:32:03.

government is doing that. Ukip is not... I'm quite enjoying this

:32:04.:32:09.

coming you tell me the question! It's great! I'm not convinced, Ann,

:32:10.:32:17.

that Theresa May is actually going to deliver the Brexit that the

:32:18.:32:21.

British people want. How does standing against her promoter

:32:22.:32:26.

Brexit? Are you suggesting we don't stand? We are political party. It's

:32:27.:32:32.

what we do. Let me come back to appoint you made at the head of the

:32:33.:32:39.

programme to put Ann, you and I both remember the Ted Heath election of

:32:40.:32:44.

1974. He called it on who runs the country. That was the issue. Within

:32:45.:32:48.

a week, that had ceased to be the issue. Many other things had become

:32:49.:32:54.

the issue. There's a chance in that way it kind of runs away. You call

:32:55.:33:00.

an election on one issue and people say, that's not what I want to talk

:33:01.:33:04.

about, we want to talk about living standards, we want to talk about the

:33:05.:33:07.

difficulties of good schools, waiting lists in the NHS, that's got

:33:08.:33:11.

to be a risk for her. I have no doubt at all that all those types of

:33:12.:33:16.

issues will, and will be debated. They are bound to, in the course of

:33:17.:33:21.

a general election. In as far as one can never make predictions and

:33:22.:33:25.

politics, it is very unlikely that Brexit will be overtaken, in the

:33:26.:33:28.

sense that people will suddenly forget about it and start

:33:29.:33:31.

concentrating on other things. I do remember the Tettey selection and he

:33:32.:33:34.

said, who rules? That was the question he put. He said, who rules?

:33:35.:33:43.

And people said, nobody. The result was indeterminate. Tim Farron

:33:44.:33:48.

reckons that the Remain and Leave thing is going to produce a lot for

:33:49.:33:53.

him, but I look in my own area, slightly different, I'm an anti-hard

:33:54.:33:58.

Brexit MP and memories are short and a lot of take the NHS Andrew touched

:33:59.:34:04.

on, a lot of what's happening to the NHS now was instigated by Liberal

:34:05.:34:07.

Democrats with Conservatives in government and what he's bargaining

:34:08.:34:12.

on is that areas that have been deeply affected by that, like my

:34:13.:34:16.

own, will forget the cuts and forget the responsibility that the Liberal

:34:17.:34:20.

Democrats pair for that now and say, OK, because he's Remain, therefore

:34:21.:34:23.

I'm going to forget all that and support him. I think by the end of

:34:24.:34:27.

this, I'm not sure that's going to happen. By the end of the thing, it

:34:28.:34:31.

comes down to leadership and economy. It's an interesting point,

:34:32.:34:36.

there are potential huge pitfalls for all of the main parties here.

:34:37.:34:42.

Labour's pitfalls are obvious, it's to do with the leadership deficit

:34:43.:34:46.

and the Corbyn factor. The Lib Dems do have this issue of how they deal

:34:47.:34:49.

with the coalition years and they will make a big mistake if they try

:34:50.:34:53.

and fight the last war. Already, some of the senior people who are

:34:54.:34:57.

standing again have made the mistake in the last 24 hours of trying to

:34:58.:35:00.

argue with the electorate about why they got such a kicking in 2015.

:35:01.:35:06.

They can't do that. They need to move on. There's plenty to talk

:35:07.:35:10.

about, about whether you want essentially an over dominant

:35:11.:35:13.

Conservative Party without in effective opposition, and there they

:35:14.:35:16.

can make a case that there's a contribution to make when the Labour

:35:17.:35:20.

Party is in disarray. That will be their argument. If May is going into

:35:21.:35:25.

this thinking it's a Brexit election, it might be what people

:35:26.:35:28.

are focused on now but we've also triggered optical 50. We are on the

:35:29.:35:32.

way out. I actually think there will be other issues that come to the

:35:33.:35:35.

fore and take over from that quickly. NHS is one of them, on

:35:36.:35:42.

which this Tory government has failed abysmally. The Health

:35:43.:35:44.

Secretary is one of the most unpopular there's ever been, not

:35:45.:35:49.

just... They're always unpopular. This was -- this one is particularly

:35:50.:35:55.

unpopular. I wonder if the Westminster village doesn't

:35:56.:35:58.

overestimate the whole Remain and Leave feeling in the country. It

:35:59.:36:05.

just is not, in people's everyday lives in my area, Remain and Leave

:36:06.:36:11.

and Brexit is important for a lot of people, a strong Remain

:36:12.:36:13.

constituency. The health and education cuts is more immediate.

:36:14.:36:18.

The point I made earlier which I think you make misunderstood, was

:36:19.:36:24.

straightforward. Just because the Labour candidate is for Remain, why

:36:25.:36:29.

would that make you vote for Cobilas Prime Minister? That was the point I

:36:30.:36:33.

was trying to make earlier, when we had Gina here. I don't think

:36:34.:36:37.

therefore that Brexit will be the sole determining factor. I think

:36:38.:36:41.

competence, I think record, I think all those things will count and will

:36:42.:36:45.

count heavily. And of course the Prime Minister wants to make it

:36:46.:36:47.

about leadership, as she said several times. I wonder why. Let me

:36:48.:36:54.

come back to you, Chuka. A lot of people on your side are realistic

:36:55.:36:59.

they think if there's chance of them into power it will have to beat with

:37:00.:37:03.

an alliance, there will not be an overall majority. It will have to be

:37:04.:37:07.

an alliance. Is there any hope of a Progressive Alliance? It never seems

:37:08.:37:11.

to take off in Britain? I think the problem is if you look on the left

:37:12.:37:15.

and there's been this talk of Liberal Democrats, Greensand Labour,

:37:16.:37:20.

the ASCII is always full Labour to stand down in favour of Green and

:37:21.:37:29.

Lib Dem candidates. But the Greens stood out of the way in Richmond to

:37:30.:37:36.

give the Lib Dems a clear run. The national and local did that, there

:37:37.:37:40.

was a dispute, wasn't there? I spoke to Caroline Lucas today. She said

:37:41.:37:45.

clearly, she wants to do that, but it has to be the decision of the

:37:46.:37:49.

local party. I think in the end, some people are very squiffy about

:37:50.:37:52.

this but in the end there's an issue in the sense that if there's to be

:37:53.:37:56.

any kind of alliance of coalition, that's for the voters to determine.

:37:57.:38:01.

It's not a backroom deal. This is all a disaster, Lynton Crosby's

:38:02.:38:06.

brilliant slogan, which they are to repeat ad nauseam, is this strong

:38:07.:38:10.

Tory leadership versus coalition of chaos. There is no prospect of a

:38:11.:38:13.

coalition with Corbyn, nobody would touch him with a barge pole. Nicola

:38:14.:38:21.

Sturgeon... That's right, it's difficult to talk about tactical

:38:22.:38:24.

voting without playing into the hands of Lynton Crosby, so it makes

:38:25.:38:27.

it very difficult even on the ground. I think there will be some

:38:28.:38:33.

of it on the ground this time. It's clear Mrs May will seek a new

:38:34.:38:35.

mandate, not just for Brexit. There's a lot of things she didn't

:38:36.:38:40.

like in the 2015 manifesto. There's going to be new things, old promises

:38:41.:38:45.

junked, new ones put in. What is the one thing above all you would like

:38:46.:38:51.

to see that's new in the Tory manifesto? I want to see a promise

:38:52.:38:57.

on immigration that is deliverable. And where the mechanisms will be

:38:58.:39:02.

spelt out. Why do you have faith in Mrs May to deliver that, given her

:39:03.:39:08.

appalling record of Home Secretary? She was also heavily restricted

:39:09.:39:13.

during that time by EU law. She didn't control non-EU immigration.

:39:14.:39:18.

Which is also subject to EU law and refugees. Wakey wakey!

:39:19.:39:25.

LAUGHTER 26 minutes past 12! Servers are

:39:26.:39:31.

trying to get a cat nap. We'll move on before we all fall asleep.

:39:32.:39:36.

Old Choo Choo was so overwhelmed by the prospect of another election

:39:37.:39:39.

that he bought a ticket on the Hindu Express

:39:40.:39:41.

Sad man on the left Alan Johnson is even more disenchanted

:39:42.:39:47.

He's said he's not playing any more and is off to write his memoirs.

:39:48.:39:54.

That's why we're putting apathy in this week's spotlight.

:39:55.:40:05.

The Prime Minister's called yet another national vote.

:40:06.:40:07.

Oh, for gods sake, I can't honestly...

:40:08.:40:14.

There's too much politics going on at the moment.

:40:15.:40:19.

So what style of campaigning, if any, can win the electorate over?

:40:20.:40:30.

I believe in campaigns where politicians actually get out

:40:31.:40:33.

# I bore myself in broad daylight, 'cause I'm bored #

:40:34.:40:44.

Or is the cure for apathy to topple the political

:40:45.:40:46.

It's the establishment versus the people.

:40:47.:40:51.

It's our historic duty to make sure the people prevail.

:40:52.:40:59.

Even some of them have had enough of the whole thing.

:41:00.:41:02.

Grime artist Big Narstie encouraged young people to take part in last

:41:03.:41:16.

year's EU referendum, but does he still think voting's

:41:17.:41:19.

worthwhile, or should we smash the system to bits?

:41:20.:41:23.

Welcome. Do you think people get bored with voting so often? 100%,

:41:24.:41:48.

man. If you look at the last two years, it still the same. People are

:41:49.:41:53.

still sleeping in city centres, in bags for life, so with all the

:41:54.:41:59.

schemes and policies that have happened, MPs saying they will do

:42:00.:42:02.

this or that, it still seems the poor get poorer, the rich stay the

:42:03.:42:07.

same and pay higher tax and instead of building council flats, there's

:42:08.:42:13.

always a new need for a Tesco or Morrisons or Tesco local. So you're

:42:14.:42:16.

saying it doesn't make any difference? Not at all. What do you

:42:17.:42:24.

say to that, Chuka I think it does make a difference and Big Narstie is

:42:25.:42:30.

from my neck of the woods, Lambeth. Of the things we thought, we don't

:42:31.:42:34.

explain enough the tangible things that happen at the end of your road

:42:35.:42:39.

that have been the result of a political decision, so I look at my

:42:40.:42:44.

area, nine sure start children's centres, our secondary school

:42:45.:42:46.

buildings are hell of a lot better than when you and I went to school,

:42:47.:42:50.

and our primary school buildings, much better than when we went to

:42:51.:42:54.

school, and that was as a result of political decisions. New health

:42:55.:43:02.

centres that were built. All right. People don't associate that with a

:43:03.:43:06.

political decision. You've got better schools, more sure start

:43:07.:43:07.

eschew That is supposed to be standard. I

:43:08.:43:17.

agree. We didn't have it before though. This is what is sick about

:43:18.:43:24.

the situation. So the politicians 20 years before you, when everybody had

:43:25.:43:31.

their power before and they give a speech about how they care for the

:43:32.:43:35.

community, it sounds nice... The thing with elections coming yet, the

:43:36.:43:40.

focus is on the election instead of the people, because the truth is

:43:41.:43:47.

that they are real things that we need, they don't look fancy, and to

:43:48.:43:52.

the establishment, it's really uncomfortable. For more politicians

:43:53.:43:56.

to say, do you know what? There is that 20 square thousand feet left in

:43:57.:44:02.

the city centre. We're not going to build a new JD sports. I think we

:44:03.:44:06.

should build someone bed flats, but that isn't cool to say because it

:44:07.:44:11.

will ruin your campaign. That is what gets said all the time. The

:44:12.:44:16.

long-term effect is, because you said just to get through and didn't

:44:17.:44:19.

do it, the next person said it and didn't do it, so now we are here,

:44:20.:44:25.

and the man is saying, politicians, you lot are dead food. What is dead

:44:26.:44:33.

food? Floppy disks, minidisks. In the sense of, when you leave this

:44:34.:44:36.

place right now and the lights go off and you go about your business,

:44:37.:44:40.

you've got a good job and you are OK. Let's talk about the people who

:44:41.:44:47.

have to bank ?88 every two weeks and being told, because of what they

:44:48.:44:53.

have in their house, they need to pay tax on that. Even prime

:44:54.:44:58.

ministers, if you want to run this country, we need to go back to

:44:59.:45:02.

basics. It doesn't matter you are poor or rich. You need to have the

:45:03.:45:06.

mind state to think for more than just one. But the problem is now,

:45:07.:45:11.

like most places in the world, the poor out to the rich. There are more

:45:12.:45:22.

poor people than rich people. One minute, this one is going to mash

:45:23.:45:28.

your mind. Imagine this. It's not your fault that you come from a

:45:29.:45:31.

loving home with two parents who have worked hard to give you a

:45:32.:45:35.

better future and provide some stability for you, but let's talk

:45:36.:45:39.

about the kids who haven't. How can a person who has had a perfect life,

:45:40.:45:42.

who has grew up in a perfect society, you've never had an

:45:43.:45:47.

electric meter in your life, you've never sat in a passageway looking at

:45:48.:45:51.

a baby thinking, how am I going to... Who are you talking to? I

:45:52.:45:58.

thought you were talking to Ann. But the group will I bring her in? But

:45:59.:46:05.

like everybody to have a word. And I'd like everybody to have a woeful

:46:06.:46:09.

Ken Livingstone, before he became an expert on Hitler, used to say, if

:46:10.:46:13.

voting mattered, they would abolish it. They had a what? If voting

:46:14.:46:21.

mattered, they would abolish it. I always said, if you had compulsory

:46:22.:46:28.

voting and you had a box saying, none of the above, that would

:46:29.:46:33.

probably win. So you agree? No. I am with Chuka. Just about everything

:46:34.:46:40.

that happens is governed by political decisions, from basic

:46:41.:46:43.

things like how often the rubbish is collected, all the way through to

:46:44.:46:50.

laws on Brexit. All of these things are actually the product of

:46:51.:46:55.

political decisions and politically understanding or misunderstanding,

:46:56.:46:58.

and Chuka is right, we don't often explain that. We don't often say,

:46:59.:47:03.

all of these things changed across somebody took that on board I'm

:47:04.:47:06.

going to give you the final word. All I'm going to say is this not my

:47:07.:47:13.

thing is this. The problem with our country, too many people who have

:47:14.:47:20.

not come from the poor way of life, let's just talk about real life...

:47:21.:47:24.

We don't have much time. Real life is this. Working over 16 hours, tax

:47:25.:47:31.

is being taken out and it's hard enough for a normal person to afford

:47:32.:47:37.

to live in London so you are working 16 hours and you can't afford, and

:47:38.:47:41.

you're still on benefits, but you have a posh person telling you about

:47:42.:47:45.

more benefit cuts and cutting money from disabled kids. We are running

:47:46.:47:54.

over. Real stuff. What good to see you got keep it real. That is your

:47:55.:47:58.

lot for tonight, but not for us. We're giving Loulou's the swerve

:47:59.:48:02.

tonight, because we're off to the Bristol mansion

:48:03.:48:04.

of Ukip's Arron Banks, where he's laid out his maps

:48:05.:48:06.

of the south-east of England, and together we will pour over them

:48:07.:48:09.

to help him identify exactly He probably needs to crack

:48:10.:48:12.

that conundrum before And we will help because, for us,

:48:13.:48:15.

public service is a 24/7 duty. Nighty night, don't

:48:16.:48:21.

let the voters bite. I know nothing about Clapton at all.

:48:22.:48:35.

I've got a reputation for saying it as it is. My plan is to get Clacton,

:48:36.:48:43.

to see what the issues are and then I'll campaign. I'm certainly going

:48:44.:48:48.

to buy a house there if I'm elected. I think, from the point of view of

:48:49.:48:54.

being the MP for Clacton, I think I would be very effective. When I say

:48:55.:48:59.

I'm going to do something, I do it. And I will be aiming to win. I

:49:00.:49:07.

understand -- I'm going to stand, come hell or high water.

:49:08.:49:09.

Andrew Neil is joined by Chuka Umunna, Ann Widdecombe, Miranda Green and Suzanne Evans to review the last few days in politics.

Featuring a film from Gyles Brandreth, looking back over the last few days since the general election was announced.

The studio guests are Gina Miller, who talks about a progressive alliance and tactical voting to challenge hard Brexit, and rapper Big Narstie, who looks at apathy in the spotlight section.