16/06/2017 This Week


16/06/2017

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Transcript


LineFromTo

It's just another lonely night in Westminster.

:00:00.:00:00.

The sidewalks are deserted, the malls are empty,

:00:07.:00:08.

the post-election dust still hasn't settled, and the moon is out.

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OK, guys, we have someone on the line.

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Hello, I'm THE Gyles Brandreth from Barnes and I want to talk

:00:35.:00:41.

about how the Prime Minister has emerged from a failed

:00:42.:00:44.

Given this was meant to be the Brexit election,

:00:45.:00:52.

I'd kind of like to know what's happening with our exit from the EU.

:00:53.:00:55.

Look, the Prime Minister said Brexit means Brexit but now it

:00:56.:01:07.

It makes me wonder about the hand of history.

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If only there were some historians listening in.

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It can't be because the show is too popular.

:01:23.:01:25.

My interns tell me the switchboard is lighting up.

:01:26.:01:33.

Evenin' all and welcome to This Week.

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In the early hours of yesterday moring Khalid Ahmed was preparing

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Khalid lives on the eighth floor of Grenfell Tower,

:02:00.:02:05.

a 24-storey apartment block in west London.

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Suddenly he realised something was dreadfully wrong.

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15 minutes later, nearly the whole building was ablaze in one

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of the worst fires London has seen in living memory.

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Many Muslims who lived in the building had stayed up

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for suhar, the meal between one and two o'clock in the morning

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Many people in Grenfell Tower may owe their lives to that very fact.

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Amid reports of fire alarms not working, those awake ran from door

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But many, many are still unaccounted for and many

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It's feared the death toll could be very high.

:02:44.:02:50.

No one knows for certain what caused the fire,

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but we do know that residents had expressed concern about the safety

:02:53.:02:56.

of the building, with some fearing it was a "disaster

:02:57.:02:58.

This afternoon the Prime Minister called for a full public

:02:59.:03:04.

The nation, grappling with tales of desperate mothers

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throwing their babies out of windows, and of children crying

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for help at flame-engulfed windows, will have to wait some

:03:12.:03:14.

The general election seems a long time away,

:03:15.:03:21.

but for the moment we do not have a government that

:03:22.:03:23.

can command a majority, and ministers cannot be properly

:03:24.:03:26.

questioned on the causes of, or their response

:03:27.:03:29.

to the Grenfell Tower fire, because Parliament

:03:30.:03:33.

In the last three months our country has endured three horrific terrorist

:03:34.:03:37.

attacks, and the country's brave emergency services have been

:03:38.:03:40.

The nation feels, yet again, a sense of deep, profound shock.

:03:41.:03:47.

Tough questions need to be answered and many lives will

:03:48.:03:50.

The actual flames, mercifully, have died down, but you sense that the

:03:51.:04:09.

flames of the political row are just starting to smoulder. Will this be

:04:10.:04:14.

politicised? Well, I think people are rightly angry about what has

:04:15.:04:17.

happened because it should never have happened, in the richest city

:04:18.:04:21.

in one of the richest countries in the world. And I think you saw

:04:22.:04:26.

today, when various politicians visited, that people want people to

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be held responsible and held to account. It's hell on earth. It

:04:30.:04:36.

feels like something you might see in a third World country, not in

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this country. And the unimaginable horror of what people have been

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through and what they have seen will live with them four-year stint come,

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but people want answers quickly. And is the enquiry a way to get those

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answers? Absolutely. A full public enquiry. Nothing else will satisfy

:04:59.:05:05.

people. Both party leaders went down today. Very different approaches

:05:06.:05:09.

from Mrs May and Mr Corbyn. How would you characterise what they

:05:10.:05:14.

did? Alas, Mrs May was what she has been for the last six weeks, which

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is to say she wanted an entirely controlled situation in which she

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did not use her cue manner. She met in private with the emergency

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services, no doubt a good thing to do, but she should have been there

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with the residents, which is what Jeremy Corbyn was. He was hugging

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people and being natural. The Prime Minister would have been shouted at,

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but she should have been willing to take that. Because the London mayor,

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Sadiq Khan, got heckled quite a lot. It is not their fault, but you have

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to be prepared to receive people's emotions, and not be so frightened

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about people. May I say, I think it has sent a shameful image of this

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country around the world, to see public-housing blazing like a torch

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is a shameful image. It reminds me of the King's Cross fire and of

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Hillsborough. The one bit of comfort I draw from this is that King's

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Cross and Hillsborough led to dramatic changes in those fields,

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and there will be dramatic changes in public housing. Many tower blocks

:06:19.:06:21.

will be torn down because we will decide we need two staircases, and

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it will not be possible to refit many of them. And I think there will

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be a broader reconsideration of what is going on on estates. At the

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moment, we are grappling with this enormous death toll, which I think

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is going to be enormous, but something very different will come

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out of it, and something much better for the future. Last couple of

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words. There will be people watching who will say it was not that long

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ago that there was a fire in Camberwell and an inquest sat for

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the best part of three months and recommendations were made, the idea

:06:56.:07:00.

that lessons need to be learned. Nothing happened. Much of it in the

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end is about money. On the front page of The Times tomorrow, there is

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a horrific story that the difference between having a properly fireproof

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panel is ?2 more, and for ?5,000 it was not done properly. So it will be

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about money. We can't avoid that. And I think the mood of the country

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is shifting to saying that cutting costs is clearly risking lives and

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is not the right approach for the future. I think it is more than

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that, I think it is a transformational moment. Because?

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Because this disaster is much worse than any of the others. It is going

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to be a horrific death toll and like the King's Cross fire and

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Hillsborough you cannot ignore it. We have to change everything. Thank

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you. Now, the eagle-eyed and sober among

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you may have noticed that I am not, He's on a walking holiday

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in Snowdonia with Molly the dog and Tim Farron,

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who suddenly has a lot Luckily for this program,

:08:01.:08:02.

BBC editorial guidelines clearly state that This Week should make it

:08:03.:08:06.

to air as long as it's presented by a grumpy,

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arrogant, overpaid, brutish, red faced broadcaster

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with a history of rough interviews Which is just as well

:08:14.:08:16.

because what a week's it's been, what with the Tories winning

:08:17.:08:21.

but losing and Labour To think that this time last week

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many in the Westminster bubble What history will make of Theresa

:08:27.:08:32.

May's premiership is anyone's guess. A year ago hailed for her steely

:08:33.:08:38.

determination and a safe pair of hands, she appears friendless

:08:39.:08:43.

and a source of ridicule, having presided over one of the worst

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election campaigns in history. So goodbye a 20-point

:08:48.:08:52.

lead in the polls, farewell a Commons majority,

:08:53.:08:55.

and adios that manifesto. But what does it

:08:56.:08:57.

all mean for Brexit? After all, the election

:08:58.:09:01.

was all about that - wasn't it? Here's the Telegraph's Liam Halligan

:09:02.:09:04.

with his take of the week. Brexit is up in the air, dominated

:09:05.:09:33.

by DUP deal-making. But away from the spotlight, the UK's Brexit

:09:34.:09:44.

strategy is in a spin. Stop! The soft Brexit crew are back, pushing

:09:45.:09:48.

for continued membership of the EU single market. But that means

:09:49.:09:54.

ongoing annual multi-billion pound payments to Brussels, and the

:09:55.:09:58.

continued supremacy of EU law, not least on freedom of movement. That's

:09:59.:10:05.

why so-called soft Brexit isn't really Brexit. And to say that it

:10:06.:10:17.

is, stretching the truth. Brexit isn't a dead. Labour and the Tories

:10:18.:10:23.

between them one over four fifth of the vote last Thursday, both vowing

:10:24.:10:27.

to leave the single market. Then there is the 52% who back to leaving

:10:28.:10:33.

the EU last June. And the anti-Brexit Lib Dems and SNP both

:10:34.:10:37.

spooked voters in this election, getting a lower share of the vote.

:10:38.:10:44.

This hung parliament weakens the UK in Europe's eyes. One Dutch

:10:45.:10:50.

newspaper cartoon had our Prime Minister hitting herself over the

:10:51.:10:58.

head with a hammer. Perhaps there is something we can do for you, said

:10:59.:11:02.

Jean-Claude Juncker, EU President, in the cartoon. In reality, the EU

:11:03.:11:12.

itself is badly split. Franco- German unity is a pipe dream and EU

:11:13.:11:16.

business leaders want a UK trade deal. If we hold our nerve and take

:11:17.:11:24.

careful aim, we can still strike a good bargain. Brexit was always

:11:25.:11:31.

going to bring political ups and downs, but if we get queasy, with a

:11:32.:11:35.

fee brow commons or a determined House of Lords trying to stop it,

:11:36.:11:39.

the EU will give us the worst possible deal. But that could derail

:11:40.:11:45.

the process, leaving us stuck in the EU. That would delight much of the

:11:46.:11:48.

political and media establishment, but many voters would be furious,

:11:49.:11:54.

viewing democracy has nothing but make-believe.

:11:55.:12:00.

They'll be in Clissold Park, London, this weekend.

:12:01.:12:04.

Liam Halligan from the Telegraph joins me now.

:12:05.:12:07.

Hopefully he's done screaming for the day.

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You can show off in a minute and tell everyone what you are telling

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us. Michael, the election all about Brexit. Where are we left?

:12:23.:12:28.

Lee is in the world of fantasy with Mrs May. I support Brexit, but Mrs

:12:29.:12:35.

May will not be able to get it through the Cabinet, through her

:12:36.:12:39.

party, through the Commons, through the Lords. Such it might as well

:12:40.:12:43.

stop talking about it right now. Actually, it doesn't matter what she

:12:44.:12:47.

talks about because she is not going to be Prime Minister for very much

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longer. How much longer? I would be amazed if she made it to the

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conference in October. She would even get a conference? I think it

:12:58.:13:02.

would be humiliating to go to conference. I remember Margaret

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Thatcher went to conference and was cheered to the Echo and was got rid

:13:07.:13:11.

of five weeks later. There is that possibility for Mrs May. I would

:13:12.:13:16.

avoid the problem if I were she, and to not go to conference. So who is

:13:17.:13:22.

on manoeuvres? They are all completely free of charisma. The

:13:23.:13:28.

only person who could lead to the Conservative Party, the only proven

:13:29.:13:32.

winner, is Ruth Davidson. Theresa May is a proven loser. None of the

:13:33.:13:39.

others seem to have very much to offer. And are deeply unattractive

:13:40.:13:44.

to the public. Deeply unattractive. The Tories are in a terrible

:13:45.:13:49.

quandary. The only thing that is positive for the Tories is that

:13:50.:13:53.

Jeremy Corbyn must now be taken seriously. I have a feeling that

:13:54.:13:56.

quite a lot of voters believe Liz Kendall and other Labour candidates

:13:57.:14:01.

at the last election that Corbyn stood no chance and they have the

:14:02.:14:03.

luxury of voting for whoever they wanted because Corbyn was not going

:14:04.:14:08.

to win. But now you have to take a Corbyn Premiership very seriously.

:14:09.:14:11.

The moderates in the Labour Party have to take it seriously, as well

:14:12.:14:17.

as the Tories. Lives, what do you take from what Liam is saying about

:14:18.:14:18.

Brexit? Let's look at it thisway. If May had

:14:19.:14:30.

won, the extreme hard liners would be saying it was due to the view of

:14:31.:14:35.

Brexit. They took responsibility for the win now they need to take

:14:36.:14:38.

responsibility for the loss. I think the first thing that's dead and

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buried is the idea that no deal is better than a bad deal. I think that

:14:44.:14:48.

certainly if she's going into a deal with the DUP, we are going to have

:14:49.:14:52.

to stay within the customs union because the DUP don't want a hard

:14:53.:14:56.

border, that's for sure. Thirdly, she is going to have to make

:14:57.:15:00.

transitional arrangements because there's no way she's going to get

:15:01.:15:04.

the leave arrangements and the future relationship done within the

:15:05.:15:08.

time available. That's got to be put in place and my preference would be

:15:09.:15:13.

that we stay within the EA so businesses have certainty. I think

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it's all to play for and I am very pleased that all those people who

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said that anyone who questioned or challenged anything to do with

:15:22.:15:26.

Brexit and called us Remoaners and enemies of the people, now we have

:15:27.:15:29.

the chance to do our job, which is to hold the Government to account

:15:30.:15:32.

and set out a positive position for the future. Liam, Hammer Halligan,

:15:33.:15:38.

tell everybody what you achieved, you will forever be known as that

:15:39.:15:44.

now, but tell us what you achieved? That was really me that whacked

:15:45.:15:47.

that. I wasn't going to mention that. Michael thinks you are a

:15:48.:15:51.

little off track? That's all very well but I would say what I said in

:15:52.:15:58.

the piece, Labour and the Tories got over four fifths of the votes, both

:15:59.:16:02.

stood on the platform of leaving the single market. If we don't leave the

:16:03.:16:07.

single market... It was very different though wasn't it It's not

:16:08.:16:11.

really Brexit if you don't leave the single market. We voted to stay in,

:16:12.:16:15.

if you remember, the Common Market, back in 1975. The single market is

:16:16.:16:20.

far more integrationist because we have had Nice and Lisbon and

:16:21.:16:25.

Maastricht and the other treaties so it's odd to have another referendum

:16:26.:16:28.

and stay in the single market. If you stay in the customs union, the

:16:29.:16:34.

whole sort of optimistic case for Brexit, trading more with the rest

:16:35.:16:37.

of the world, falls by the wayside because you can't make your own free

:16:38.:16:41.

trade deals with the rest of the world. The EU hasn't made trade

:16:42.:16:45.

deals with anyone in the major economy around the world. I agree

:16:46.:16:49.

with you entirely, it's just not going to happen. You can see what

:16:50.:16:53.

the Chancellor of the Exchequer is up to. You can see the Tory party is

:16:54.:16:58.

not going to wear it. The Labour Party is not to be depended upon.

:16:59.:17:04.

Sure, they'll say whatever they need to. I agree. If we stay in the

:17:05.:17:09.

single market, we are not leaving the European Union really. In

:17:10.:17:13.

fairness, we are faced with a dilemma where the people are asked

:17:14.:17:19.

to vote firstly do you favour Brexit or not. Yes. Second, do you favour

:17:20.:17:23.

hard Brexit, no. That is a difficult narrow channel to go through. People

:17:24.:17:30.

voted for lots of different reasons. The main one that I experienced was

:17:31.:17:39.

about controlling immigration. I'm increasingly hopeful that we could

:17:40.:17:45.

get some changes on migration. We saw one of Macron's senior advisers

:17:46.:17:50.

saying the leave campaign tapped into people's genuine concerns about

:17:51.:17:55.

immigration and that freedom of movement is not indispensable to the

:17:56.:17:58.

free flow of goods and services. So I mean it's all to play for. We

:17:59.:18:02.

should have all the options on the table and I think May's big mistake

:18:03.:18:08.

after the referendum, as I argued at the time, she should have said, we

:18:09.:18:13.

are leaving, but 48% of people voted to Remain, it's going to be

:18:14.:18:17.

difficult and complex, there'll be compromises and trade-offs, and

:18:18.:18:20.

present that to people honestly. Instead she came forward with a lot

:18:21.:18:24.

of sound bites and refused to even involve Parliament. You are sounding

:18:25.:18:28.

much brave after the general election. To be fair on this

:18:29.:18:31.

programme I've had to argue my case for weeks. Not quite as strongly as

:18:32.:18:36.

you are arguing now. You are all very cowed by the electorate and

:18:37.:18:41.

going round... You began every sentence saying, we must respect

:18:42.:18:46.

what the electorate... And in all my election addresses I've absolutely

:18:47.:18:50.

said we voted to leave, we want the best. Respect the vote where you

:18:51.:19:01.

have no control over borders? I want to see freedom of Labour, freedom

:19:02.:19:04.

movement of labour and I believe there is a deal to be struck. That's

:19:05.:19:08.

what I said to my constituents, we want to keep the jobs, trade and

:19:09.:19:12.

investment. We need changes on migration. You are in the hands of a

:19:13.:19:19.

bunch of EU bureaucrats? You are so wrong, Liam. In the end, it's a

:19:20.:19:23.

political decision. If Macron and Merkel decide they have problems

:19:24.:19:26.

with immigration within their own countries and which they do, it will

:19:27.:19:33.

be a political deal and that's what the price is. There's always been a

:19:34.:19:39.

cheat in this which is the claim that the free movement of people is

:19:40.:19:43.

necessary for a single market - it's not. The free movement of labour may

:19:44.:19:48.

be necessary. That's a completely different thing, that's about people

:19:49.:19:53.

moving to jobs. Let me put my two pennet in and say two Conservative

:19:54.:19:59.

Prime Ministers have taken ludicrous gambles, falling unnecessary votes

:20:00.:20:03.

for party political reasons and have left us in a weak and unstable

:20:04.:20:08.

position. What an amazing result. Liam, could the deal look so bad

:20:09.:20:11.

that actually the British electorate would want to turn their back on it

:20:12.:20:19.

anyway? Look, if we make clear that we are going queasy on Brexit, then

:20:20.:20:23.

the EU will, because they want ?10 billion a year net from us, the EU

:20:24.:20:27.

will make sure we get a really, really bad deal, so the public

:20:28.:20:32.

thinks it's absolutely terrible, then we revert to the status quo

:20:33.:20:35.

where we stay within the EU. That's all very well and a lot of people

:20:36.:20:40.

will like that and think they've been very clever around Westminster

:20:41.:20:44.

but there'll be a big swathe of the electorate that will be completely

:20:45.:20:48.

disillusioned with that. What are you going to do over the weekend,

:20:49.:20:54.

tip the lady out of the bed or get a goldfish in a bag? Trying to pop a

:20:55.:21:02.

balloon with a blunt dart. Thank you very much.

:21:03.:21:07.

You can show off in a minute and tell everyone what you are telling

:21:08.:21:10.

Now it's late - running through fields of wheat late.

:21:11.:21:14.

But if the Prime Minister's rebellious days of farmyard

:21:15.:21:16.

frivolity don't fill you with glee, then fear not,

:21:17.:21:18.

because waiting in the wings is broadcaster and historian

:21:19.:21:20.

Dan Snow, here to put popularity in our spotlight.

:21:21.:21:22.

So by all means, be our Facebuddies, join our Twitteratti Instagang.

:21:23.:21:25.

So it seems the nation can now look forward to a coalition of some sort

:21:26.:21:30.

between the Conservative Party and the DUP, thrusting

:21:31.:21:31.

Northern Irish politics centre stage and possibly,

:21:32.:21:33.

if you believe John Major, destabilising the entire

:21:34.:21:38.

So I hope you haven't tuned into This Week

:21:39.:21:42.

for strength and stability, because we're following

:21:43.:21:48.

the Tory rebrand and just "getting on with the job".

:21:49.:21:50.

And if that means the end of austerity, so much the better.

:21:51.:21:53.

It means the BBC can finally afford my exorbitant fee,

:21:54.:21:56.

and we can all enjoy the coalition of chaos that is the big, bad,

:21:57.:22:00.

biased BBC and the shining beacon of solid impartial journalism

:22:01.:22:06.

Here's Giles Brandreth with this week's round up of the week.

:22:07.:22:24.

# Doctor, doctor, have mercy on me #.

:22:25.:22:31.

A week on from the general election and Westminster continues

:22:32.:22:34.

The Prime Minister is still looking peaky.

:22:35.:22:38.

The diagnosis - a severe case of the hung Parliament.

:22:39.:22:41.

This Week can make you feel a great deal better.

:22:42.:22:57.

Our medicine is so alternative, there's no alternative.

:22:58.:23:02.

The Commons returned for the first time this week since the election

:23:03.:23:17.

and MPs re-elected speaker John Bercow.

:23:18.:23:19.

The patient put on a very brave face given her poorly political position.

:23:20.:23:24.

Well, they say laughter is the best medicine.

:23:25.:23:28.

Mr Speaker elect, on behalf of the whole House, may I congratulate

:23:29.:23:32.

Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn has never looked fitter.

:23:33.:23:43.

When he returned to the Commons, he received a standing ovation.

:23:44.:23:49.

In fact, several standing ovations, because later when he met the PLP,

:23:50.:23:52.

no longer a medical condition, it means the Parliamentary

:23:53.:23:55.

Labour Party, they stood and they cheered yet again.

:23:56.:23:58.

In fact, the election has agreed with him so much that he appears

:23:59.:24:01.

to have embraced campaigning as a healthy lifestyle choice.

:24:02.:24:05.

He managed to be quite magnanimous towards the poor patient,

:24:06.:24:09.

It is customary on these occasions to congratulate

:24:10.:24:16.

the returning Prime Minister and I absolutely do so.

:24:17.:24:18.

I congratulate her on returning and I'm sure she will agree with me

:24:19.:24:24.

that democracy is a wonderous thing and can throw up some

:24:25.:24:28.

It's bright orange, but it could see you through.

:24:29.:24:39.

It appears there could be side effects.

:24:40.:24:49.

A consultant from an earlier era, one John Major, weighed in to urge

:24:50.:24:52.

Mrs May to put the Irish peace process ahead of her need

:24:53.:24:56.

I understand why she wishes to shore up her Parliamentary position.

:24:57.:25:01.

That is entirely understandable and I sympathise.

:25:02.:25:05.

But, but my main concern certainly is the peace process.

:25:06.:25:12.

A fundamental part of that peace process is that the UK Government

:25:13.:25:17.

needs to be impartial between all the competing interests

:25:18.:25:22.

The PM needs to get back on her feet sharpish.

:25:23.:25:25.

We want her fighting fit for those Brexit negotiations.

:25:26.:25:28.

But not all of her former colleagues seem to be rooting for her recovery.

:25:29.:25:33.

It's just how long she's going to remain on death row.

:25:34.:25:38.

In other words we could get to the middle of next week and it

:25:39.:25:46.

The last time we saw him was in the operating theatre

:25:47.:25:54.

when he was wielding a knife himself.

:25:55.:25:56.

You can't keep a good Brexiteer down, can you?!

:25:57.:25:58.

Now, are we going to see the return of Tory EU-fluenza?

:25:59.:26:04.

It's important after this general election that we do two things; one,

:26:05.:26:10.

we form a Government which is capable of carrying

:26:11.:26:14.

through the public's wishes, including leaving

:26:15.:26:15.

the European Union, and at the same time we reflect on the fact

:26:16.:26:18.

that we didn't get the majority we wanted and therefore

:26:19.:26:21.

we needed to be a properly in listening mode to appreciate

:26:22.:26:26.

# I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in #.

:26:27.:26:34.

Meanwhile, the pressure has been rising among the Liberal Democrats.

:26:35.:26:37.

Their leader Tim Farron resigned, claiming his Christian

:26:38.:26:41.

faith was incompatible with modern politics.

:26:42.:26:44.

He didn't mention that perhaps some of the voters were slightly

:26:45.:26:47.

disconcerted by being encouraged by him to smell his spaniel.

:26:48.:26:54.

Put us all in the paddock, wouldn't it?

:26:55.:26:57.

I seem to have been the subject of suspicion

:26:58.:27:00.

because of what I believe and who my faith is in.

:27:01.:27:02.

In which case, we are kidding ourselves if we think we yet live

:27:03.:27:06.

And that is why I've chosen to step down as leader

:27:07.:27:12.

Down in the south, Mrs May's Conservatives didn't do

:27:13.:27:23.

too well, but up in Scotland, Ruth Davidson's Conservatives

:27:24.:27:26.

triumphed and Ruth herself is now flexing her muscles as an active

:27:27.:27:32.

Remainer, encouraging an open Brexit.

:27:33.:27:35.

They've said that they want the Conservatives to be

:27:36.:27:37.

in Government, but by denying there's a majority, they don't

:27:38.:27:40.

That means we have to reach out to other people on the big

:27:41.:27:44.

Consensus is a condition that appears to be catching.

:27:45.:27:48.

SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon, having dropped 21 seats...

:27:49.:27:51.

Called for a wee pause in the Brexit negotiations to allow time

:27:52.:27:57.

for the cross party committee involving the three devolved

:27:58.:28:01.

The approach that the Government was taking to hard Brexit I think

:28:02.:28:08.

is dead in the water and cannot stand.

:28:09.:28:10.

I'm calling today for a process that is opened up to include more

:28:11.:28:14.

voices, all parties and all four nations of the UK and an approach

:28:15.:28:18.

that has continued membership of the single market at its heart.

:28:19.:28:21.

If the tonic isn't working, there is one final prescription.

:28:22.:28:31.

Thanks for Oxford Circus surgery for that. With us is former SNP

:28:32.:29:00.

superstar and former SNP MP John Mickologison. Welcome. The biggest

:29:01.:29:04.

groan I've heard from you so far tonight was when I mentioned the

:29:05.:29:12.

DUP, Michael. Why? Well, because I think that much of the electorate

:29:13.:29:17.

will be dismayed at the Conservatives making a pact with the

:29:18.:29:21.

DUP because the only thing they know about the DUP is that it's against

:29:22.:29:25.

same-sex marriage. Given the tremendous progress that the

:29:26.:29:31.

Conservatives have made in winning over the LGBT community, introducing

:29:32.:29:36.

same-sex marriage in Britain, in Great Britain, not in Northern

:29:37.:29:39.

Ireland, it seems a tremendous setback. On top of that, I do take

:29:40.:29:44.

quite seriously what John Major's said. He's right, is he? Well, I

:29:45.:29:50.

mean he could be right, you know. If the Prime Minister were going to now

:29:51.:29:55.

involve all the parties, including Sinn Fein, and if she were going to

:29:56.:29:58.

talk to the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats and the SNP and

:29:59.:30:01.

everybody else about Brexit and if she were going to, you know, then

:30:02.:30:06.

take those discusses over to our European partners, maybe this would

:30:07.:30:09.

all be all right. But, so far, she's not looked very good at talking to

:30:10.:30:16.

her Cabinet, it let alone her party, let alone other party, let alone

:30:17.:30:20.

Europe. So one doesn't have much hope for it really. So what should

:30:21.:30:22.

she have done? She is paying a great price for

:30:23.:30:31.

this. I think she could have formed a minority government. Because all

:30:32.:30:37.

that she will get from the DUP is support for the Budget and support

:30:38.:30:43.

for the Queen's speech and a motion of confidence. And probably most

:30:44.:30:47.

things were available anyway because the DUP does not want put in Jeremy

:30:48.:30:52.

Corbyn who has been a sympathiser with the IRA over the years. So you

:30:53.:30:56.

could have relied on the DUP for that without an agreement. Of

:30:57.:31:03.

course, the coalition of chaos was what the Conservatives were saying

:31:04.:31:07.

you guys would be involved in and yet the reality now is... When I

:31:08.:31:14.

look at May now, she is like a boxer who has been punched to the floor.

:31:15.:31:20.

She has staggered back up, head going round, you are not sure if

:31:21.:31:23.

she's going to fall over when she has another punch. Her weakness and

:31:24.:31:31.

Herb brittleness and her fear and her inability to do what is right

:31:32.:31:37.

now, which is to say, look, the public has voted as they have and I

:31:38.:31:42.

am going to change our approach. We are going to work with other

:31:43.:31:45.

parties, with devolved administrations, we are going to be

:31:46.:31:49.

open and transparent and set out the risks and benefits of different

:31:50.:31:52.

approaches, she has shown none of that. In fact, she came outside

:31:53.:31:58.

Downing Street after the result and pretended it has not happened. We

:31:59.:32:01.

are just going to get on with the job. I think she is not up to the

:32:02.:32:07.

job. She has now made just about managing into a lifestyle choice.

:32:08.:32:13.

Let's talk about the landscape in Scotland. What has happened? We lost

:32:14.:32:21.

quite a lot of seats, as you know. Why? Ruth Davidson has managed to

:32:22.:32:25.

make the conversation about the constitution. We had local elections

:32:26.:32:29.

recently and the leaflets did not mention the rubbish bins, schools or

:32:30.:32:33.

roads. They said, vote for councillors who will stop

:32:34.:32:38.

independence. My local council is not filled with people who are

:32:39.:32:41.

tackling grand constitutional issues. She was successful in that.

:32:42.:32:48.

So what we saw at the general election was people coalesce in

:32:49.:32:54.

individual constituencies round the party most likely to beat the SNP.

:32:55.:33:00.

There were informal pacts across the country. In my own constituency, I

:33:01.:33:05.

did not see a single Tory or Labour poster anywhere. There were no

:33:06.:33:10.

leaflets. They stood back in order to let the Lib Dem candidate wins. I

:33:11.:33:13.

think that happened across the country. So we can say farewell to

:33:14.:33:25.

India to? My idea was or was that we would have a second independence

:33:26.:33:28.

referendum once we knew the details of Brexit. I think the Brexit deal

:33:29.:33:32.

will be a very bad deal and people will feel they were sold a pup. For

:33:33.:33:38.

me, the second independence referendum was giving people a

:33:39.:33:41.

choice. The Lib Dem position is absurd because they say, we want to

:33:42.:33:46.

stop you having a damaging second referendum on independence, but we

:33:47.:33:52.

are happy to have a damaging second referendum on Brexit. You can't

:33:53.:33:55.

complain about other parties making the campaign about what they wanted

:33:56.:33:59.

to be, not what you want it to be about. I am not. I am answering the

:34:00.:34:06.

question. It did not help the cause of another independence referendum

:34:07.:34:10.

in any way, did it? I am not going to argue that. You have people in

:34:11.:34:16.

Scotland, especially young people, passionate about a second

:34:17.:34:19.

independence referendum. You will notice there was no Corbyn bounce in

:34:20.:34:24.

Scotland. The Labour Party did quite badly. We got more seats. We now

:34:25.:34:29.

have a team of Labour MPs in Scotland. You got more seats. That's

:34:30.:34:34.

the name of the game in first past the post. I am painfully aware of

:34:35.:34:40.

what the name of the game is. I am just saying there was not a Corbyn

:34:41.:34:45.

bounce. You do have young people passionate about independence and a

:34:46.:34:49.

lot of especially older voters who do not want a second independence

:34:50.:34:55.

referendum. Scotland is divided. Liz Kendall, talk a bit about Labour.

:34:56.:35:00.

You did lose but everybody feels that you won. In reality, your party

:35:01.:35:06.

has lost again, has come up short, and Mr Corbyn, although he did

:35:07.:35:11.

better than expected, he still lost. He confounded expectations,

:35:12.:35:16.

including my own. I think the campaign was excellent. It changed

:35:17.:35:28.

when the two manifestos came out. I remember being here and saying why

:35:29.:35:32.

didn't you get behind him? I have never seen such a campaign since I

:35:33.:35:37.

was elected. We had better bring in Michael before he goes the colour of

:35:38.:35:43.

his shirt. People with many different views pulls together,

:35:44.:35:48.

certainly in my seat. We went in 20 points behind, expecting to lose

:35:49.:35:51.

seats and we ended up gaining them. But we have not one. Many people

:35:52.:35:57.

would say it was accosted as well. There are a number of things. We

:35:58.:36:02.

have two wins 64 seats to form a majority next time. That is still a

:36:03.:36:09.

big mountain to climb. You make Mrs May sound like a realist. What has

:36:10.:36:13.

happened to your party is it is firmly in the grip of Momentum, and

:36:14.:36:17.

you know better than everybody that these are very nasty people who will

:36:18.:36:21.

drive the likes of you out of the party. They will have you

:36:22.:36:25.

deselected. They will pursue you on social media. They will get you out.

:36:26.:36:31.

You say you were united. You do not believe in this tache in the Labour

:36:32.:36:36.

Party manifesto club renationalising these industries. In my party

:36:37.:36:40.

locally, everybody pulled together. It made a huge difference. Suddenly,

:36:41.:36:46.

you and Chuka Umunna in particular make it sound like the only

:36:47.:36:49.

disagreement you had with Jeremy Corbyn was that you thought he might

:36:50.:36:54.

not win. I have never said that. Your party has been taken over by a

:36:55.:36:59.

very dangerous hard left, people who have sympathised with terror over

:37:00.:37:03.

the years. They are now within a hair 's breadth of taking power in

:37:04.:37:06.

this country and you should be more worried than I am about that. There

:37:07.:37:11.

were two issues. One, whether he could do well in an election, and

:37:12.:37:16.

full credit to him for that. But certainly from conversations I have

:37:17.:37:19.

had with people, there are issues like defence and security that have

:37:20.:37:23.

to be addressed. Michael's essential point is that the party is

:37:24.:37:27.

effectively on the verge of a takeover. I do feel that at all.

:37:28.:37:33.

There are some on the hard left, some supporters of Corbyn who worked

:37:34.:37:37.

their butts off in my campaign and I'm grateful to them for it. His

:37:38.:37:42.

supporters think the Parliamentary Labour Party is the obstacle to

:37:43.:37:46.

taking power and it must be destroyed, and you will be destroyed

:37:47.:37:50.

in the process. I saw you rolling your eyes. We must talk about Tim

:37:51.:37:54.

Farron, the fact that he said he cannot leave the party because of

:37:55.:38:00.

his faith. Bisla. The problem was not his faith, but that he could not

:38:01.:38:04.

give a coherent answer to the question, do you think that gay sex

:38:05.:38:08.

is wrong. The answer is, I think that gay sex is fine for those who

:38:09.:38:13.

want to have it. I personally don't. I am talking about him, obviously,

:38:14.:38:19.

in this instance. For him to try and make himself a religious martyr is

:38:20.:38:25.

absolutely absurd. The thing about it is, I do not want to be tolerated

:38:26.:38:31.

by Tim Farron, thinks I am a sinner and he has to pray for me and

:38:32.:38:36.

tolerate me. I think gay people should be respected in the

:38:37.:38:39.

21st-century, and that is the simple message he got wrong. Can I ask you,

:38:40.:38:46.

when is the next general election? I suspect the Tories are very keen not

:38:47.:38:51.

to have another election. I think Mrs May could be in the rocking

:38:52.:39:00.

chair in the bay window in Psycho being rocked backwards and forwards

:39:01.:39:03.

for as long as they can, because they do not want to go to the

:39:04.:39:06.

country again because I think they know they will lose more seats.

:39:07.:39:11.

Whether the coalition of chaos, with the ghastly, homophobic DUP can

:39:12.:39:17.

survive, as the cliche goes, only time will tell. Thank you, good to

:39:18.:39:19.

see you again. Now, if you've just woken up,

:39:20.:39:24.

welcome to Britain's most reviled political programme,

:39:25.:39:27.

loathed in equal measure It's taken This Week over a decade

:39:28.:39:28.

to approach viewing figures that match Lord Buckethead's modest vote

:39:29.:39:35.

share in Maidenhead, which is why the BBC have approached me,

:39:36.:39:39.

LBC's audience magnet. I'm more popular

:39:40.:39:42.

than Farage you know? Which is why we're putting

:39:43.:39:46.

popularity in this week's spotlight. General elections are

:39:47.:39:58.

popularity contests. In politics, you live by the sword

:39:59.:40:07.

and you die by the sword. But does a popular leader make

:40:08.:40:18.

for a popular party? Labour's Chris Lesley was quick

:40:19.:40:21.

to rain on Jeremy Corbyn's We shouldn't pretend this

:40:22.:40:23.

is a famous victory. It's good as far as it's gone, but

:40:24.:40:29.

it's not going to be good enough. Although elections are fiercely

:40:30.:40:33.

partisan, affection for popular I've never quite forgotten the image

:40:34.:40:35.

of the member for Rushcliffe in the tearoom wearing Hush Puppies

:40:36.:40:42.

eating bacon sandwiches, drinking super-strength lager

:40:43.:40:45.

and carrying a cigar whilst taking a break from a debate

:40:46.:40:49.

on healthy living. And, can a politician be so popular

:40:50.:40:54.

they're able to completely reshape Boy wonder, Emmanuel Macron's

:40:55.:40:57.

brand-new party, appears to be heading for a landslide

:40:58.:41:04.

in the French elections. The significance of

:41:05.:41:07.

this result is clear. But we must show humility

:41:08.:41:10.

and determination. And is Donald Trump still riding

:41:11.:41:14.

on a wave of popularity? We thank you for the opportunity and

:41:15.:41:18.

the blessing that you've given us. Mr President, thank you for

:41:19.:41:25.

the honour to serve the country, it's a great privilege

:41:26.:41:27.

you've given me. It's the greatest

:41:28.:41:29.

privilege of my life. I can't thank you enough for

:41:30.:41:31.

the privileges you have given me. Historian Dan Snow reckons

:41:32.:41:34.

the career of every politician, even the most popular,

:41:35.:41:40.

ends in failure. A gratuitous shot of you with your

:41:41.:42:02.

shirt off. I thought you meant the shot of Michael. Which is more

:42:03.:42:05.

important, for the party or the leader to be more popular? Nobody

:42:06.:42:12.

talks about the electoral system. Ours is fascinating. One of the

:42:13.:42:16.

reasons we have had problems is that we have this presidential politics

:42:17.:42:27.

in this country, as Theresa May fought an incredibly presidential

:42:28.:42:31.

campaign, but we have constituency votes and a parliamentary system. We

:42:32.:42:35.

elect our executive throughout legislature. So that is a difficult

:42:36.:42:40.

question to answer. In France and the USA it is all about the person

:42:41.:42:45.

at the top. In Britain it is unclear, but it is probably more

:42:46.:42:49.

about the leader. Look at root in Scotland, phenomenally popular Tory,

:42:50.:42:53.

but Scottish conservatism, one of the most toxic brands in politics.

:42:54.:42:59.

Probably the leader. So last week, was it that no party was popular

:43:00.:43:04.

enough? That is probably right. And how do you brush up? Is a party now

:43:05.:43:12.

a brand rest room of course. But what is curious is that the public

:43:13.:43:18.

seem less tribal than in the past, so Corbyn's wild swing from

:43:19.:43:22.

unpopular to tolerably popular and May's journey the other way, are we

:43:23.:43:29.

less tribal, are we jumping from... Social media brands, consumer brands

:43:30.:43:33.

are having this problem. In France, they seem happy to dump their

:43:34.:43:37.

traditional parties. Perhaps we are going to see that in the UK as well.

:43:38.:43:42.

Was it effectively like two escalators. Once May started going

:43:43.:43:47.

down it was unstoppable and likewise with Mr Corbyn going up? I think

:43:48.:43:54.

May's confidence must be shot, because I can't think of another

:43:55.:43:59.

example in history. Gordon Brown in 2008, 2010, John Major in 1997, he

:44:00.:44:09.

had been a powerful years. This was almost entirely her fault. Not just

:44:10.:44:13.

calling a snap election by the way was conducted. How do you hide from

:44:14.:44:18.

that? Michael, were you a popular politician? No. Why? People took

:44:19.:44:27.

against me. They thought I was arrogant. I think I was quite

:44:28.:44:31.

frightened actually. When I was interviewed by people like you, I

:44:32.:44:36.

was actually feeling frightened of people thought I was being snooty.

:44:37.:44:42.

Anyway, I am now on my way to being a national treasure, so it ends

:44:43.:44:48.

well. We will also break that. In politics, how do you build

:44:49.:44:56.

popularity? I think you should not seek popularity and I don't think

:44:57.:45:00.

popularity is what it is about. I don't think Ruth Davidson courted

:45:01.:45:04.

popularity. She says what she thinks. And she embodies what she

:45:05.:45:10.

thinks. She believes staff. Corbyn did well because he believes things.

:45:11.:45:17.

Mrs May did not appear to believe anything. Margaret Thatcher believed

:45:18.:45:20.

things, big time. She was not popular but got elected again and

:45:21.:45:25.

again. So popularity is absolutely beside the point. Sticking with what

:45:26.:45:31.

you believe, whatever happens. Why are you in politics? What is it for?

:45:32.:45:37.

It is not just a game. I think it is about authenticity. I am not sure

:45:38.:45:40.

Donald Trump believed anything but he looked authentic. I think May's

:45:41.:45:46.

problem is that she appears quite inauthentic. There I say it, if we

:45:47.:45:52.

are talking about popularity, I think her behaviour towards going

:45:53.:45:57.

down to visit the site of the fire today, that was an astonishingly

:45:58.:46:02.

poor bit of leadership, I think. She didn't talk to anyone, did not seem

:46:03.:46:05.

to talk to any of the victims involved, the families... I can see

:46:06.:46:11.

why she would not want to, but that is just 101, get down there, roll up

:46:12.:46:15.

your sleeves and talk to people. It is like George Bush and Katrina,

:46:16.:46:22.

brutal. Can a politician crave popularity too much and it looks

:46:23.:46:29.

ugly? I think we all can, for sure. I think anyone who has been involved

:46:30.:46:34.

on the dating scene... People can be desperate to be popular. It is like

:46:35.:46:41.

Blair in the last years of Blair, he was not sure why his popularity was

:46:42.:46:46.

slipping and he started to spin the wheels and his grin became fixed. I

:46:47.:46:50.

will make myself popular because I have to say that is it.

:46:51.:46:53.

That's your lot for tonight, folks, and we're calling it a night too.

:46:54.:46:56.

We're not off to Lou Lous, we're not off to Annabel's.

:46:57.:46:59.

Like many of you, we've been shaken by the horror of the Grenfell Tower

:47:00.:47:02.

On nights like these, it's only fitting to applaud

:47:03.:47:06.

the heroism of our fire service and the inspirational solidarity

:47:07.:47:08.

I'm not going to lie, the locals are angry.

:47:09.:47:14.

Lives didn't need to be lost and they are lost.

:47:15.:47:18.

The people are looking for their children and it is so unfair.

:47:19.:47:21.

People have lost their homes, children have seen things.

:47:22.:47:23.

We just need to rebuild as a community now.

:47:24.:47:27.

People that have nothing are here getting things

:47:28.:47:29.

My living room is open for anyone to stay.

:47:30.:47:47.

When a disaster like this happens, guess what, everyone turns up

:47:48.:47:54.

Something bad happens, people come together.

:47:55.:47:58.

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