17/12/2015 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling,

David Cameron goes to Brussels to have his first substantial talks

with other European Union leaders about his demands for changes in

These talks come ahead of a referendum which will take

place at some point next year in which Britain will decide

I'm Alan Johnson and I'm fronting the Labour campaign

to stay in the EU - business will lose out if we leave

I'm Suzanne Evans - the deputy leader of UKIP.

I want out of Europe because it is too expensive.

We'll debate the issue with Alan, Suzanne and our audience.

Why lifestyle, not luck is the biggest cause of cancer -

Plus - what happens when you find out your marriage ceremony

Calls to make wedding laws less complicated.

We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

As always we'll keep you across the latest breaking

and developing stories right across the morning.

Your contributions are really welcome throughout the programme.

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by going to add topics and searching "Victoria Derbyshire".

David Cameron is in Brussels today, but it's not for some last minute

Instead he's over there to persuade other European leaders

to back his plan for reforming Britain's relationship

with the other 27 European Union countries, ahead of a referendum

in which voters in Britain will decide to stay or leave the EU.

That vote is expected to happen some time next year.

Politicians have been arguing about the benefits of staying

We've asked two of them, Ukip's Suzanne Evans

and Labour's Alan Johnson, to make us a film setting out either

We will bring you those shortly but first lets take a look

He says he wants the UK to remain in a reformed EU but "rules nothing

out" if his demands are turned down let's take a closer look

at what he wants to change: He wants Britain to be able to opt out

from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union"

That means restricting access to certain work

until they've lived here for four years.

for national parliaments to block EU legislation.

explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the EU -

that's to make sure countries like England using the pound -

So when will the EU referendum happen and we get to vote

The one thing we know for sure is that Prime Minister has said it

But why not just hold the referendum now?

Well, In a letter this week to all member states -

the President of the European Council - Donald Tusk -

said the EU is still "far from agreement" on David Cameron's

reforms but that there had been "significant

He said "During dinner we will discuss the UK issue,

to see if we can pave the way for an agreement in February."

So all 28 leaders will be meeting for dinner tonight ,

This map from - Open Europe, a pro-EU reform think-tank shows how

Poland is one country who say they are up for supporting some

of the demands - but will not accept withholding migrants' benefits

as this would affect hundreds of thousands of Poles living

The largest Eurozone countries - Germany, France and Italy -

all agree with the principle on euro "outs" but the devil will be

And it's thought Denmark and Ireland will be the most helpful countries

throughout the renegotiation, as they would be the most negatively

At the opposite end, Belgium, Luxembourg and Spain could be among

These countries continue to have a particularly strong

emotional attachment to European integration.

So the first of our politician's films this morning.

Labour MP Alan Johnson; he's fronting Labour's campaign to stay

Let's take a look at why he thinks it's good for Britain to stay in.

Organised crime in this country, because they would be

beyond the reach of the European arrest

Protection for workers, like right to paid holidays,

paternity leave, maternity leave removed.

Britain humiliatingly weea at the negotiating table with other

Leaving the EU would be a catastrophe.

That is why this is the most crucial political

I'm Alan Johnson, Labour member of Parliament

I'm Leading Labour In For Britain, the Labour Party campaign

for Britain to remain in the European Union.

I've been fortunate enough to be minister

in charge of a lot of different government departments

From welfare to education, from jobs to health,

from immigration to the security of our country.

I dealt with a huge variety of issues in my

time as a minister and this will be the battle ground for the debate

over whether Britain should be in or out of the European Union.

I'm making this film to tell you why I

think Britain should remain in the European Union.

Firstly because it's my constituency, but,

perhaps more importantly, it is Britain's

Britain's windy coastlines mean the UK market is the biggest

The German company Siemens, they looked at 104 different

locations in northern Europe and decided to locate the final

assembly of these huge turbines, going out

into these three big offshore wind farms in the North Sea,

By September of next year, this will be a huge manufacturing

1000 jobs, putting Britain and Hull at the heart of the renewable

I'm here to talk to Finbarr Dowling, who is the project director

What effect does Europe have on your plans here?

I guess we can't absolutely say, because nobody knows

What we do know is what Europe looks like now.

Of course there could be some reforms.

But, you know, we know where we stand today.

This is the single biggest investment Siemens is making

What you want, when you're making an investment that large,

?310 million going in here, you want to be able

to and understand what is going to happen

This isn't something you rock up and do for three or four

I've come here to the Inspired Cafe in Hull to meet Joanna,

who has come to this country from Poland and who has got

You've come to work in Britain from Poland, because Britain

Are you settled now for good in Britain?

Some of the debate but European Union is about

free movement and about people coming here from other countries,

and are concerned that they are taking jobs that local

Do you ever come across that argument?

I think if people really want to find a job, they will find

It's not true that immigrants take the jobs.

Well, we don't want to lose you from Hull,

Our cash might not be affected by Europe, but many things are.

The European Union is a market, a huge market.

It is a market with rules, rules to govern,

for instance, how the pigs that made the sausages are reared,

how much meat is actually in these sausages,

the seeds, the pesticides used to grow these vegetables.

There are standards that every European

So, the Inspired Cafe also has a job club.

I'm here with Denise, Leigh and Richard.

We're debating about the European Union.

What about people coming up here from Eastern Europe?

At the end of the day, I think we are reading too much

into the immigrants which are coming over.

Immigrants having coming into this country since the year dot.

Because there is a big thing with, maybe, racism, I don't have that,

I believe it's nice if they would learn a little here,

please and thank you is, just integrate, really.

There are 2 million Brits living and working in the European Union.

What about you, Leigh, is that an issue for you?

People want to come here and where, they can

But I think Britain, the UK as a whole, are a bit

People come here because it is too easy and they come here

It's normally for benefits and housing.

They shouldn't be coming here just for benefits?

There's not a lot of evidence that many people are,

These are the arguments you're going to

Because it's going to be your decision and it's one

This summer, British police officers were sent to Calais,

the most vulnerable entry point to Britain, to help deal

with a refugee and migrant crisis by working in a joint command centre

It's not just the migrant crisis that police in Europe work

I think Britain is safer in Europe because it helps our police forces

to work together, sharing information on joint operations.

I'm here to meet a police officer in Birmingham who is doing exactly

Paul, here we are at the heart of Trivium.

What we have here is the operation centre for the whole

For the first time, Trivium 5 is a pan-European

We are working with colleagues from a different

We are working with colleagues from eight different

In addition to this setup, we have one with our

colleagues from Europol in the Hague.

Already, with the first 48 hours of this operation,

we have executed 25 European arrest warrants.

The European arrest warrant is issued only for serious

If they are wanted for a serious offence over there, they can

issue a warrant and we can arrest them in the UK,

If we were outside of Europe, it's very doubtful whether

You have to go through extradition, that takes a lot of time.

The whole idea is to speed up the process.

Britain in the European Union is a stronger

Britain, a safer Britain, a more prosperous Britain.

If we rip ourselves away from the European

Union, we'll be isolated, on our continent and in the world.

Later we'll be hearing from Suzanne Evans, the Deputy Chair

of Ukip, who says we should leave the EU.

We'll also be joined by a group of people to debate the UK

in Europe; that's just after 10 o'clock.

And of course you can watch Alan and Suzanne's film on our programme

Thanks for joining us today; still to come.

Some breaking news from the High Court. Former paratroopers who have

been facing questioning over Bloody Sunday have won their High Court

battle against being detained and transferred to Northern Ireland for

interview by police. The ex-soldiers sought a judicial review against the

Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who

wanted them brought back to Northern Ireland for an investigation into

whether criminal offences may have been committed by soldiers who used

Lethal Force on Bloody Sunday in 1972. They were fighting against

that, it was a case describe bid the Lord Chief Justice as a matter of

great public interest. They have won their High Court battle against

being detained and transferred to Northern Ireland over that. We'll

hear more later. Thanks for joining us

today - still to come: Should the law be changed so that

unconventional ceremonies like this are legally binding? We will speak

to one woman who's marriage ceremony fell outside the law. And women's

participation in sport is still patchy. We will be looking at what

the Government plans to do to boost the number of people taking part.

First, the main news. European leaders meeting in Brussels are to

discuss David Cameron's demands for changes with the relationship with

the EU. Many countries are against the Prime Minister's plan to curb in

work benefits for EU migrants. New research suggests that cancer is

overwhelmingly the result of lifestyle factors. It challenges a

previous study that put the majority of cancer types down to bad luck. A

new strategy to get more people involved in sport is being launched

by the Government. It will concentrate on encouraging children

as young as five to be more active. Russian President Vladimir Putin has

begun his end of year news conference by fielding questions on

the economy, saying it is showing signs of stabilisation. He is also

expected to answer questions about Moscow's military action in Syria.

Stars and storm troopers gathered in London last night for the European

premiere of the new Star Wars film. Thousands of fans turned out in

Leicester Square to welcome the seventh film in the franchise. Now

the sport. More changes in store for the England rugby union side? Yes,

bad news for Chris Robicheaux. He was the man and a Stuart Lancaster,

but since he has been replaced as head coach, the pressure has really

mounted on Robicheaux. He has been criticised strongly in the

decision-making. The man coming in is Dylan Hartley. He has a notable

rap sheet. He missed the World Cup after being banned for a head-butt.

He has been banned for 54 weeks during his career. But he's one of

the most experienced players available for the new coach ahead of

the Six Nations. Elsewhere, all smiles for Spurs, as their new home

in Harrogate gets approval. They will have a 61,000 seater stadium,

more than Arsenal. That will not tarnish the day of another Arsenal

fan, AP McCoy. He will be honoured with a well-deserved lifetime

achievement award. We will also have more on the new sports strategy.

Plenty to come just after ten o'clock.

Let's go back to the breaking news that we brought you a few moments

ago. There has been a ruling that paratroopers will not have to go to

Northern Ireland to face police questioning over Bloody Sunday. 14

people died on the 30th of January 1972 and a civil rights march in

Londonderry. Andy Martin is at the High Court in London. Tell us more

about the ruling. Well, we have just had this ruling handed down in the

High Court. There was a judicial review over this. The Police Service

of Northern Ireland said they were carrying out a murder investigation

and in the course of that they wanted to interview seven

paratroopers that were at Bloody Sunday, back in 1972. Against that,

the paratroopers said there was no need for them to go to Northern

Ireland, their lives could be at risk. Interviews could be carried

out here on the mainland, since they were going to answer no comment to

all questions asked of them anyway. We have just had this judgment now

from the Lord Chief Justice and two other judges. They said they will

grant an order prohibiting the Police Service of Northern Ireland

from arresting the claimants in order to interview them under

caution. So, the Police Service of Northern Ireland will have to come

here to the mainland, to England or Wales, and carry out the interviews

here in England or Wales. I have not had a chance to look at the full

reasoning for the judgment. That, in essence, is the judgment. The

paratroopers will be very happy with that. They argued there was no case

for them to go to Northern Ireland. They said that the Police Service of

Northern Ireland was being aggressive, obstructive, over

administrative in insisting they went to Northern Ireland. The police

service said it was their duty to investigate events that happened,

however many decades ago, and it might be unpleasant for those taking

part, but it was in the interests of justice that the paratroopers come

to Northern Ireland. Just a bit of background, one paratrooper was

arrested in Northern Ireland in November. He was arrested and

interviewed, then bailed. The seven others will have to be interviewed

here on the mainland. Almost six out of 10 adults play no

sport in a typical week and that's So much so they've announced

new plans to improve Britain's health and get more of us

active and into sports. The focus will be on children

as young as five and grassroots sports organisations will get extra

cash in a hope it will encourage more of us to improve

our general fitness. Earlier, the sports minister said

that the Government would be targeting groups of people who are

not often interested in sport. We know that we have challenges in

certain communities. We know that older people stop participating in

sport. We know women also drop off at a certain point. People from

lower socioeconomic groups, Asian and ethnic minority groups, these

are all areas we are targeting within the new sports strategy.

There will be funding available to make sure we target those groups

specifically. So, will the new plan work? In the studio is the

Conservative MP Andrew Bingham, who sits on the sports committee, Chris

Dunn, who runs a school sports team, the chief executive of a sports

company, and were also joined by Tanni Grey-Thompson, former

Paralympian. Andrew, if the Government wants to reach

five-year-olds, why not do it through schools? The various ways we

can do it. It is an encouragement we are looking to reach five-year-olds

now. It was 14-year-olds previously. By the time people get to 14, we may

have lost them. A five-year-olds can get involved in sport and physical

activity, it takes so many boxes. Not just about physical activity, it

includes social cohesion. Disappoint to a failure of policy and terms of

selling off sports fields and also cancelling school sports

partnership, which was giving money directly to schools? Don't think it

does, it's a question of realigning Government policy, where we see the

benefit of sport, how it can benefit. In years gone by, the local

council used to look at sport. It is a fantastic medium for getting

people involved. Has the Government not appreciated the value of sport

in the past, with policies I have mentioned? It is a fair criticism,

to a degree. I would not say forgotten, I think it has been

underestimated. It's not just about physical activity, its various other

parts of life that sport can help benefit. If you get young people

playing team sport, it encourages teamwork, working with and for each

other. Underestimated might be a fair criticism. Chris, would you

agree that the value has been underestimated? I would. I have to

say, I agree with most of what Andrew has to say, but I think he is

quite wrong when he says in answer to your question that this is not

about a realignment in terms of the National strategy. We had a very

effective strategy in place after 2002, one of the most important

reasons why we won the Olympic Games. When the School Sports

Partnership was disbanded in 2010, we lost a very important part of the

strategy. Did anything else change with the strategy? Or was it

specifically the school partnership? Yes, particularly. But that is the

reason why this strategy is so important, the realignment.

Effectively, by saying you have to concentrate on five and above, the

Government is accepting that. I agree with them, we do need to

realign it and bring it away from 14 and down to five. But, again, unless

you can engage the schools, you are not going to be able to gain access

to the nation's children, the vast majority of children. Many of them

are inactive at the early age. The money will be targeted in other

ways, Michael De Giorgio, you are involved in the sort of project that

is reaching out to people away from schools, through charity sports? It

works in and outside schools. Young people go to school, and outside

school. This is a fantastic new initiative, fantastic to be able to

go to the younger age groups, asking people to be active, before they

were funding people only at the age of 14 or above. To go to younger age

groups, it is a really good change and we should be positive about it.

Will there be extra cash, or does it just meant it is an initiative? It's

about making sure that there is cash pub there is more cash in terms of

football, the Government have done very well, the Premier League are

going to increase it to almost double their money going into

grassroots football. As somebody who is a passionate supporter of

non-league football, that is great. The Premier League is awash with

money, and we are seeing grassroots sports struggling. I am very pleased

about that. Tell us your experience of sport. Well, I started off, when

I first started, I was in my local park, in Vauxhall. I met a nice man,

called Andreas, he was there to do football sessions with young people.

He got me involved, we had opportunities, the time I wasn't

doing much. I thought I might as well spend my time well. I decided

to volunteer. He forwarded me to Street Games. It's been a great

organisation. I've only been there for six months and I have achieved

so much already. Had you been active in school, in sport? I was, but when

I left school, I wasn't interested as much. It is good to find those

roots again, being active and fit again. Tanni Grey-Thompson, you are

involved in the new initiative. How much of a difference do you think it

will make? I think it is really exciting. What we need to be doing

is thinking about activity in the broader sense. We talk about sport,

but sport is quite a small part of it. You know, competitive sport. If

we have more children being active, with a healthier lifestyle, they

have better skills, sport will benefit from it in terms of there

being more talented children coming in. Obesity costs is ?20 billion

each year. Diabetes is costing money. We need to think about

activity, as well as prevention, rather than spending a lot of money

through the NHS. For me, it's a really positive move that we are

able to look at funding at a much younger age. Why do you think the

Olympic legacy has not been as great as had been hoped? A huge amount of

expectation come I don't think it is fair to expect two weeks of the

Olympics and ten days Paralympics to change the world. There has been an

evolution in our understanding. We used to think it was hugely

inspirational. The games are really inspirational to sporty people. For

sporty girls, you look at some of the biggest stars we have. If you

are ten or 11, it is hard to look at some of the big names in sport and

understand how you take the steps to be there. I was saying boys, even

men play football, they pretend to be David Beckham. Girls don't do it

in that kind of way. We need to find a different way to inspire people to

be active, the fit and healthy, to have fun. Also, sport is great for

lots of people, but it is different from when I young. I went and did

sports that my parents took me to. Children want more choice, they want

to do different things, they don't necessarily want to go to the same

sports club at 7:30pm on a Thursday every week. They wanted to pick and

choose. We've got to be quite flexible. What would you say is the

best way to infuse kids that don't do so much? We have to create

long-term sustainable programmes. We need programmes that are running

with the same person, the same coach, to work in the long term.

This is what is changing. The new policy is allowing us to work with

the community, putting local coaches, people that are well

trained, that is what we should be trying to do, putting them into work

with local people. These coaches that are technically good, able to

engage with young people, if we can concentrate on doing that we will

make a real difference. We have always try to do things differently.

It is a real change, we should be positive about this. When we look at

statistics from 2012, 7% of British pupils are educated privately, but

half of the 2012 medal winners for Britain were privately educated. It

does say something about the fundamentals of what is going on in

schools and how to reach these kids growing up? You are right. That is

why the sports strategy is so important. It says, within the

strategy, it is aimed at a hard to reach group, whether they be women

in sport, or as Tanni mentioned, disabled sport, low socioeconomic

groups. That is the whole point, we've got to get it out beyond the

people you're talking about. Also, touching on the other thing, we are

talking about young people. The whole range of ages. We are talking

about personal fitness, public health. In my constituency, they

have a walk in football programme for men of a senior age, like me,

were the football is walking. I have been and done that. Retired blokes,

once a week, they play walking football, they get together, have a

laugh. It is about a whole range of things. Tanni is absolutely right.

We talk about sport, we should re-budget as physical activity. We

have this obesity problem, so many problems. Physical activity reaching

all parts of society is what it is about. Chris, do you agree with

that? Absolutely, and Tanni is absolutely right as well. It is in

physical activity in the widest possible sense. It is also about

sport and Olympic aspirations. We should be concerned about that as

well. Should I correct something that said earlier, it might be true

that the percentages from the privately educated, but when you

take out really expensive shorts -- sports like a question and shooting,

it is not true. What we are doing in a small part of East London, where I

chair a sports foundation, we have a number of, in a tiny borough, a

number of students in Team GB. They are the future Olympic athletes and

Paralympic athletes. Not only happened because we focused on those

children from the early ages. One boy, we identified him at the age of

six as a potential judo champion. He's now in Team GB. Michael is

right. You've got to start young, infuse and inspire young people at

the very earliest stages and infuse and inspire young people at

with them. He has the same coach now, 12 years later as he did when

he started. That's really important. The consistency and continuity. The

coaches, sometimes in the most deprived parts of the country, take

the place of older brothers and sisters, and parents.

Let's bring in some viewers' comments. One says more people would

do physical activity if it was cheaper in sports clubs. I live on a

main road so nowhere is safe to play. Simon says, I work with a

local sports team and there are a lot of examples were the children

are willing and the parents not. Eight girls interested in rugby but

cannot get to training as the parents don't want to take them.

Peter on e-mail, schools don't need money, they and parents need a

change of attitude to physical exercise, this is another case of

irresponsible and lazy parenting. Answer the last point?

Well, not for me to comment on people's parenting. Why not, you are

a politician? Politician?. But I'm not a parent, but I think the point

is, that's right, there is an element of responsibility. I was

always encouraged by my parents to play sport. I wasn't very good but

still got the benefits of playing football, cricket, badminton,

whatever it was, because I think there's a point in that with we have

to encourage families and everybody. That's important that the focus is

on the grass roots groups like the projects we have heard about today.

They're the people who the children interact with and you are absolutely

right about the consistency whereby they know if they want to play

whatever sport it is they are interested in, they can do it

regularly, they want the familiar face that encourages them. This

isn't just about breeding the next generation of world champions and

Olympic champions, it's about getting people active, out of their

arm chairs, away from saiden tear lives and getting them into sport,

whether they be emotional or physical. The important thing to do

here, apart from the change of age group is, we are changing this. In

the past, success was based on numbers, participation numbers. The

more people you had on a programme was success. Now we are realising

there are social outcomes. This is going to be judged on social

outcomes. Funding should go to projects where you can actually

demonstrate your impact. We at Greenhouse spend money trying to

prove our impact. If you do that, you deserve the funding in. The

past, funding was based on participation numbers, which doesn't

make sense. That's flagged up in the strategy, it says "meaningful

projects". Thank you all very much. Coming up, an unhealthy lifestyle

could be a factor in 90% of cancers according to a new report. We'll

bring you the details. Getting married on a beach,

in a park or even your own home may At the moment there are strict laws

surrounding marriage in England and Wales, so if you do want to tie

the knot somewhere unusual it may not be legally binding and some

couples have only found Now a review by the Law Commission

says reforms are needed to modernise the system, as has already

happened in Scotland. I'm joined by Dilveer,

who recently got married and opted for a ceremony that fell

outside of the law. Anna is a lawyer who's represented

women who've found out long after their weddings

that they weren't legally binding. Aina, tell us about what you found?

It's normally people call me after the marriage has broken down and

they find that they have no rights under English law. They thought they

were married because they had a ceremony according to their faith.

It's usually Muslim women that come to me as I'm head of the Islamic

Department of A major UK firm. They usually research this and find there

are other women in that position and that perhaps I can actually get them

legal redress. You say that they only find out long after. Did

anybody know at the time, or is it an area that people simply aren't

aware of? Largely everybody is ignorant to law and it's very

complex so you can't blame them. The ceremony looks like any marriage, it

looks like a marriage, sounds like a marriage, they even sign a

certificate which the mosques give them but it has no legal standing at

all because they are not recognised as marriages under UK law. The

repercussion is that they are classed as girlfriends or cohabitees

and there is no such thing as common law marriage, we don't have

cohabitation rights in the UK. If these are faith ceremonies,

presumably this is widespread. How many are affected by this? On my own

evidence of my daily work of getting calls, I feel nearly three million

Muslims in the UK, it's at least 100,000 people who're in

unregistered religious marriages, maybe a lot more if we were to have

the data. So explain the difference. How come all the marriages aren't in

the same situation? Traditionally, when you were a British citizen and

you wanted to sponsor a spouse from abroad, you married them in your

country of origin, that's recognised in the UK as a legal marriage, so if

you are married abroad it's legal and everyone assumed that's the case

once they settled down, became third generation British, became confident

as British Pimarying each other, rather than sponsoring abroad that

their marriage must be the same status. They often said to me, my

brother had a marriage that was Islamic and that was legal so why

wasn't mine - there's a lot of confusion. You opted for a

particular sort of wedding which you knew would not be compliant with the

law. Tell us about your experience? I did some research when I wanted to

get married and my husband and I are both not religious so we had a

humanist ceremony because that was the type that most fitted with our

desires for the day, so our options were quite limited. We legally could

either have a religious ceremony which didn't fit with either of us

although I was brought up in a religious tradition, I didn't feel

that fitted my beliefs now though, so a civil ceremony didn't really

tick the boxes. Were you aware that there was an issue with what you

wanted in that the marriage may not be legal? Yes. How did you get

around that? We had two separate days of wedding, Al civil ceremony

which we didn't feel was our emotional day, then we had a

ceremony which was personal, done by someone who shared our beliefs and

it had the aspects I wanted which were music, a choir singing, lots of

things that actually even in a civil ceremony when I enquired wouldn't be

possible. So, Aina from your legal perspective, would it be easy to

change the law to change the ceremony? It's a very outmoded law

we have now. It goes back to 1949, but in fact, nearly two centuries

old if you look at the origin of it. Life's changed dramatically. We have

more immigration, multicultural society, so we need dramatic change

and an update in law. I think it's not fit for purpose now. It's not

going to be difficult to require at least the following to have marriage

law say that all faiths should be treated the same. So it's not just

Anglican church, Jews and quakers who have to register marriages,

everyone else can volunteer to do so - why? Why isn't there clarity so

all religions are treated the same? Also humanist and nonreligious

marriages, there should be clarity there as well. Perhaps being allowed

to marry outside, in the evenings, it's not complex. Thank you both

very much. Let us know your thoughts if you have been affected by that.

very much. Let us know your thoughts Also still to come, we'll get to the

heart of the issues around Britain's relationship with Europe as David

Cameron prepares to renegotiate the terms of the UK's EU membership.

In the last hour, the European Commission President, Jean-Claude

Juncker, has said the talks later will be frank and open, but he's

hopeful of a fair deal for all concerned.

We'll have a frank and open debate, the first time that it will be a

debate looking into the substantial material of the debate. I don't know

what the British Prime Minister will explain, although I had him on the

phone but, as I'm not a spokesman of the British Government, we'll leave

it to his responsibility to make these things clear to the outside

world. As far as the commission is concerned, even during the campaign,

we have the running for the presidency of the commission. I made

it clear that there has to be a fair deal for Britain and the other 27,

so we are open-minded. We are engaging in this dialogue which will

be a negotiation with Britain in open-minded ways. I don't want the

British to leave and I don't want to blame the British. They have their

points, we have our points and that's reasonable, as people we'll

find a way out of the complicated situation we are in. Time for a

weather update with Alex. It's really warm, I'm confused.

Plants are confused too, we have daffodils coming out, not very

December-like, seeing people walking down the streets carrying bundles of

wrapping paper whilst wearing short sleeves. It's not just here, across

the other side of the pond they like to do things even bigger in the

United States and they have a really warm spell in the States. Normally

at this time of the year Buffalo would be covered in snow, but look

at the temperatures, 14 degrees above average. It's incredible. Why?

They have a warm swathe of air coming up from the south, to do with

the direction of the jet stream. The cold air is across the Arctic. There

are some intrusions, as we call them, of colder air coming down but

this is the middle of the Atlantic nowhere near us, this is what we are

seeing across the UK, it's been a very, very mild December, incredibly

mild and we are getting the warmth from the south-west, so to do with

the position of the jet stream dragging up from the Azore and

beyond. These are the December records, the all-time December

records, the warmest day back in 1948, probably not going to get to

that, but we are not far off. The last couple of days have been warm.

15 on Saturday so not far off record-breaking. You all hate

looking far too forward, but does this mean we are going to skip

winter as we know it? That is difficult to tell. There are signs

that later in the winter it might get back to something a bit colder,

but for the foreseeable it stays mild into the New Year.

It was a really mild start today. These were the temperatures as we

began Thursday. It was 16 degrees in Bude in

Cornwall this morning. That is why nature is also getting confused. We

are being sent pictures of strawberries in December! Need a bit

of sunshine toe ripen those, but nevertheless, the flowers and

daffodils are out as for north as Ayr as our weather-watchers have

been sending in. Temperatures 14, 15 in Kent. Yes it's going to stay mild

for the rest of the week and into the weekend.

the place of older brothers and sisters, and parents.

It's been a soggy start across Northern Ireland. It will fizzle out

a little bit, nevertheless it is going to bring some rain across

north-west England. Ahead of it, it stays fine and bright. Behind it, it

will brighten up quite nicely across Scotland and Northern Ireland,

although there will be a few showers across the south-west. This

afternoon, it will be a little fresher, still ten or 11 degrees.

Northern Ireland also brightening up. It will be much brighter to end

the day across north-west England and Wales after some rain this

morning. South-west England also brightening up. This line of rain

appearing across the Midlands, parts of eastern England. The head of that

it is dry until this evening. We will get the rain across East Anglia

and the south-east. We are left with showers across western Scotland.

Behind the band of rain, a cold front. The air is a little bit

colder. It really is only a little bit. These are the overnight

temperatures. Not as warm as last night, but still well, well above

the average at 10-12dC. Still mild into Friday. Still drawing the air

up. A few showers in the West and more persistent rain for Northern

Ireland and western Scotland. Many eastern areas stay dry. Low pressure

systems dominating for the weekend. Pointing right the way down to the

Azores, that is where the air is coming from. The weather front also

needs watching. There is potential for heavy rain in Wales and

north-west England. The risk of some flooding in these areas. We will

keep an eye on that. The main thing is the temperatures, no sign of

things cooling off into Christmas week.

Thank you for joining us this morning, welcome to the programme

As David Cameron tense up the heat on his partners in the EU over the

right for migrants to claim benefits, we have two different

views on the debate. A Britain in the European Union is a safer and

more prosperous union. Today, the EU has its own flag and national

anthem, and it is slowly morphing into a dictatorial United States of

Europe, one in which our voices will only become ever more insignificant.

What is best for Britain? We will be discussing it with our audience of

viewers and voters. And a harsh warning on cancer. Poor lifestyle

could cause the disease in 90% of cases according to new research. We

will have the details. European leaders meeting in Brussels

later to discuss David Cameron's demands for EU reform, amid

opposition to the Prime Minister's plans on benefit curbs. Earlier, the

President of the European Commission said he wanted a fair deal for

Britain and the EU. New research suggests that cancer is

overwhelmingly a result of environmental and behavioural

factors, such as smoking. The High Court has ruled former paratroopers

will not be detained and transferred to Northern Ireland to face police

questioning over the bloody Sunday killings in 1972. Instead, they will

be interviewed at a police station in England or Wales. The Government

says it is cutting subsidies for solar panels on people's homes by

64%. In the summer, ministers propose a reduction of 87%. Industry

figures say the concession does not go far enough.

Stars and storm troopers gathered in London last night for the European

premiere of the new Star Wars film. Thousands of fans turned out in

Leicester Square to welcome the seventh film in the franchise. Let's

catch up with the sport. We can get more on that Government strategy to

encourage more of us to participate in sport.

Children as young as five will be targeted as part of a new Government

strategy to involve more people in sport and fitness.

Sport England, the agency responsible for grassroots sport,

will now share its ?1 billion budget more widely and the Premier League

will double its grassroots investment.

Sports Minister Tracey Crouch doesn't think the recent drop

in participation figures means the 2012 Olympic legacy has failed.

I think we have a really strong legacy from 2012. We are seeing more

people participating in sport now than when we won the bid in 2005.

With more people participating than in 2010. What we are beginning to

see is a flat-lining, stagnation of people participating in sports since

2012, which is why it is right that we now deliver the new strategy. The

past strategy was designed specifically around the Olympics. We

need to look at why people are not participating, who the people are,

how we can target them and get them more involved. One of the problems

we have at the moment is that measurement does not include the

many kids that have been inspired as a consequence of the Olympics and

Paralympics. We, as in other cases we have seen where we have

12-year-old girls in a boxing ring because they are inspired by Nicola

Adams, but they are not measured by the participation results. I think

that is unfair when we talk about the legacy. Lots of children are

involved but are not recognised for that.

Now, he's been banned for a total of 54 weeks during his career

and was dropped from the World Cup after a suspension for head-butting

but Dylan Hartley is now the leading contender to be named England's

It's thought new Head Coach Eddie Jones wants a more confrontational

character to lead the side and Hartley is the favourite

Hartley is one of the experienced players available and he captained

Northampton to the Premiership title in 2014.

Tottenham Hotspur have had revised plans for a new stadium approved

by Haringey Council - spelling the end for

White Hart Lane, which was first built in 1899.

Spurs hope to move to their new 61,000-seat home in time

The planning proposal includes a deal that will see at least two

NFL matches at the stadium each season in a 10-year period.

The development will take place on land which the current stadium

stands on and work is due to start in spring next year.

The plans must be formally approved by the London Mayor

and Boris Johnson is said to be a fan of the project.

AP McCoy will be honoured with the Lifetime Achievement award

at this year's BBC Sports Personality of the Year ceremony

which takes place in Belfast on Sunday.

The 20-time champion jockey, who retired in April,

dominated the National Hunt scene, winning virtually every major prize

The Ulsterman became the first jockey to be crowned

Sports Personality of the Year in 2010 after winning the Grand

That is all the sport for now. I will have the headlines at 10:30pm.

Thank you for joining us this morning, welcome to the programme

if you've just joined us, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC

Your contributions to this programme and your expertise

Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

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by going to add topics and searching "Victoria Derbyshire".

This morning we have been talking about Europe and why David Cameron

wants to renegotiate the relationship with the European

Union. He will try to convince sceptical European leaders to accept

his proposals on migrants before the referendum at the end of 2017.

Jean-Claude Juncker says he wants to see a fair deal for Britain, but

says it must also be fair for other member states. Earlier, you heard

from Alan Johnson, making the case for staying in the EU.

In a moment we will hear from UKIP's Suzanne Evans.

But first, here's Alex Forsyth in Brussels with some of the issues

On the outskirts of Brussels, there's a theme park where every

country in the European Union is represented.

Right now, the UK is trying to work out how it fits in the EU.

David Cameron wants to change the terms of its relationship.

He's set out four proposed areas of reform.

He wants to protect the power of national Members of Parliament,

he wants to make the EU more competitive, he wants to make sure

countries outside the eurozone aren't affected by decisions

of those who do have the euro and he wants to restrict access

to benefits for migrant workers to try to reduce immigration.

But some countries like Hungary also Romania, Slovakia

and the Czech Republic, worry that last measure

will discriminate against their citizens who want to work in the UK.

They are strongly opposed to the plan and it's proving

In Brussels today, all 28 EU leaders will meet to discuss this

There won't be a deal, that won't happen until February

at the earliest, but they'll be trying to edge towards a solution.

The question is, who will compromise and on what?

And can David Cameron satisfy European leaders and

We have heard from Alan Johnson, who is fronting Labour's campaign to

stay in the EU. You can watch his film again

on our programme page. Next it's the turn of Suzanne Evans,

Ukip's deputy chairman. Here's her film about why

we should leave the EU. Britain has given away far too

many powers to Brussels. We are wasting billions on our

membership of the European Union and migration without limits

is putting intense pressure I'm Suzanne Evans, deputy chairman

of Ukip and I think we should leave Well, of the 51 countries in Europe,

only 28 are members, Because citizenship of one EU member

state is a free pass to the rest. The horrific and inhumane

consequences of this can be seen day in, day out on or TV screens

at the moment as migrants risk life But the number one reason

I want to leave is because the EU They have the power to tell us

what to do in our own country and right now there's not a lot

you or I can do to stop them. There's not much the people

in here can do about it either. If you think our MPs run

the country, think again. This might be the home

of our national Parliament, but it doesn't mean

MPs make all the laws. Let's go and talk to Ukip

MP Douglas Carswell. Douglas, why can't MPs such

as yourself make all the laws Slowly but surely, MPs

here in the House of Commons and ministers in Whitehall,

have given our powers away. It's one of the reasons why people

feel this incredible sense of frustration with the political

process because you elect people to sort things out,

but actually on many, On bank reforms, that matters

enormously to people. We saw the huge bail outs,

they want something done about it. I've tried to trigger debate

about this in the House of Commons and try to make sure

that my constituents' real sense of anger against that sense

of entitlement that the bankers have is dealt with, no can do,

it's up to Brussels. Brussels has a huge say over laws

in Britain on issues like business and employment,

energy, trade, farming, fishing, and what's best for Britain

simply isn't prioritised. I'm passionate about animal welfare

so I get really incensed when I hear British pig farmers are losing out

because of cheap imports of pork from other country who don't take

the issue as seriously as we do. Even when the European Union does

make good rules, it seems Duncan Howie's family have been

farming pigs since 1967. How is business in pig

farming at the moment? We are always optimistic

of the long-term, but bluntly, the industry is in

a bit of a crisis. Every pig we produce,

we are losing money on. The EU only banned sow

stalls three years ago, the UK we banned them in 1999

but yet the European Commission tell us there are six countries

that are noncompliant No, we have a fair idea,

but if I grew pigs to the same welfare standard in this country,

I would be locked up. Firstly I wouldn't want

to and secondly, they are producing pork at a cost of production much

lower than we can here and yesterday they are allowed to sell it

on the supermarket shelves alongside our pork products

and the key thing is, for consumers, this Christmas when they are buying

Christmas gammons, to look for the red tractor,

trust it and buy British. The second reason I want to leave

the European Union. It costs us ?10 billion a year

in membership fees alone. About the same as we spend on GP

services for the entire And then of course there's

the indirect cost of meeting regulations and directives set

by Brussels and the impact of policies such as the free

movement of people. While Britain remains

in the European Union, we are obliged to let any EU citizen

that wants to come here come. And if we can't control how many

migrants we get coming into the country, how can we plan

for and relieve pressure on Public Services such

as our GP surgeries, I also think it's disturbingly

unfair, which is my next reason for wanting to leave

the European Union. Alex Petronov is a painter

and decorator working in London and Iglika Devlitvan is studying

accounting and finance Some people in Britain

say oh, you only come Most of the people I know,

they are grafters. I think the majority of the people

that are coming over, they're here to work,

pay their way in life Personally, I haven't spoken to any

Bulgarians here that came just They came for better

Job opportunities. There were 50,000 Romanians

and Bulgarians who came to the United Kingdom

in the last year. Far more I think than most

people anticipated. I don't think that level

will continue because my personal opinion is whoever wanted to come

in this country from Bulgaria would have taken the

opportunity this year. Bulgaria is seven million

all together so I can't see Do you think it's fair though that

just because you're from an EU country, you have an open door

to Britain, whereas highly skilled, highly qualified people from other

countries can't get here? I don't think that is actually

happening about the good jobs. Most of the Bulgarian and Romanian

people here work at I don't think anybody from Britain

or anybody who is educated is going to apply for a cleaner,

for example, or a car wash 40 years ago, the people of this

country voted to stay in what they were told was just

a Common Market. Today, the EU has its own flag

and its own National Anthem and it's slowly but surely morphing

into a dictatorial United States of Europe, one in which our

Government and our voices will only And a vote to leave is a vote

of confidence in Britain It's a vote that says quite simply,

we are more than just a star Watching that with us

are Suzanne Evans, deputy chairman of Ukip who made us that film,

and Alan Johnson, leader of the "Labour in for Britain"

campaign, who made us a film about staying in the EU

which we showed earlier And we are joined by a group

of people all with strong opinions to share on the UK's

future in Europe. We'll bring all our studio guests

into the discussion in a moment. First, I want to start off with

Suzanne and Alan. Thank you very much for your well-argued films. I

want to try to get from each of you, if you can, an overarching view, if

there was one single issue you would say to people is the reason to stay

in or leave? I think I made it very clear in my report, for me it's

about democracy. I believe strongly that the people we have the

opportunity to vote for and put into power should be the people that

govern us and we should have the ability to vote them out at the

ballot box at the next election if they don't do a good job. At the

moment it works that we have the European Commission in Brussels who

make all the rules, the EU Parliament's a sham. The EU

Parliament cannot put legislation on the table or repeal any legislation,

it's there for show really. If you believe strongly in democracy, I

don't think you can see a future for Britain as an undemocratic nation

ruled by another foreign power and you should vote to leave. Alan? It's

that huge market of 500 million people as the film showed, that's a

bigger market than the USA, than China. That market's crucial in an

interdependent rule. It's a market that protects people, people's

rights. There are rules to protect consumers and the environment.

Actually, in this increasingly interdependent world, Britain off

none isolation would still have to find a way to trade with Europe and

the signs from Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Lichtenstein, they trade

with Europe but they have to accept the rules sowe are in the best

possible place and if we left, we'd spend time and treasure to get back

to the position we are in now. What about the point in Suzanne's report

about pig farmers in particular? Yes, Suzanne's charming and a good

friend of mine, but I thought that what she was showing there, there

was a rule, that Suzanne said herself even when the EU do

something right, that's something that needs to be addressed. The

principle of having this rule, Suzanne made the point... It's an

irrelevant rule. We had the rule back in 1999 before the European

Commission. Workers' rights as well, when did we have the first equal pay

act in Britain, 1970, three years before the we joined the European

Union. If we leave the EU, workers will not lose their rights. We never

had the right to paternity and maternity lead. As far as trade is

concerned, there are over 60 countries that trade happily with

the European Union and they are not members. Of the top ten countries

that are the biggest exporters, six don't even have a trade deal. You

know as well as I do that the tenth biggest contributor to the European

Union in funds is Norway, they are not members of the European Union.

They pay into the European, they accept the European Union and every

single measure, including free movement and their part of Schengen.

Suzanne can't point to a single European country outside the

European Union that has not had to accept their rules because that's

the only way to trade. That's absolute nonsense. Can you point to

a country? All the other that are not members. Like what, Russia? !

Russia of course doesn't have to, are you saying it has to abide by

the EU rules, of course not. Only 5% of trade businesses trade with the

European Union yet all 100% have to abide by the rules which is

enormously difficult for businesses and entrepreneurs. I want to just

get your thoughts on a point Alan had in his film, the uncertainty for

business and big business saying that they're concerned. What is to

stop big business deciding if we leave they'll leave too? It's

interesting isn't it. These are the big businesses that were saying we

must go into the ERM. That was a big disaster that caused one of the

biggest recessions. It's r it was big businesses that said if we don't

join the euro we won't be able to trade. Big business can afford to

pay big money to Brussels lobbyists. Alan could talk about big business

leaders that want to stay in the EU, I could point to just as many...

That is true and there are a number of hedge funds for instance,

financing the leave campaign, they want Britain as an offshore

Singapore, no rules, race to the bottom, anything goes. That's not.

We are back to project fear again, aren't we? ! Because you have to

explain what Britain would look like. 51st state of the American.

You don't know what the EU is going to look like if we stay in. I know

one thing, you were too young to vote in 75, I was there in 75. We

didn't vote to go into the Common Market but the European Economic

Community. Political union was part of that and you said then the

outside chance there would be one country called Europe. Everyone

wants to have a say and I want to talk quickly about migration before

we involve everyone else. Is the only way to control migration in

this country getting out of the EU? No, we have a points-based system.

Free market is central -- free movement is essential. Britain has

more people working in developed countries than any other country in

the world. There are two million Brits living and working, you walk

into a pub in Brussels, all you hear is English accents, so if this is

about jobs, free moofment works two ways, so this issue that we can have

free movement to go anywhere else we like in the world but they can't

have free movement to come like in the world but they can't

afraid you are going to have to abide by those rules if you want to

trade with Europe and actually, it's not the most fundamental issue, I

don't think, for most people. Alan absolutely makes a good point there.

While in the European Union we have to abide by the free movement. If

David Cameron thinks he's going to get any leeway on that, he's deeply

mistaken. Let's bring in the studio audience, Roddy, you are undecided,

has anything you have heard this morning changed your mind? I'm in

the difficult position that I agree with both. With Alan very much on

the economic side, I run a small business, we do trade in Europe, not

a great deal but enough, and the free movement of both people and

money is extremely useful. But as Suzanne says, the eating away of the

democratic process concerns me. So I'll be waiting to see what Mr

Cameron brings back from Brussels before I make a final decision. Mava

you are undecided? After hearing the arguments, I'm for staying in, just

for the cause of the free movement and being able to work abroad and,

as a student, I would love to be able to study abroad. We have people

in this country who go and live and work in America, they buy property

in America. We haven't had to become the 51st state of the United

States... You have to apply for a visa. That takes what, half a day?

Introduce yourself? Ainsley and I'm very much on Alan's side of the

argument. Ukip are essentially racist. For goodness sake... Can I

just... ALL SPEAK AT

ONCE Let Suzanne just come back on this. One thing that didn't come

across in my report was the point I made, is it really fair we have an

open door to white Christian countries, yet the system works

against the points-based system that Alan talks about for the rest of the

world discriminates against black Indian people. The point is you

treat... It prioritises white people. That's racist. That is a

nonsense. The free movement of people within a huge block allows

people to move wherever they want. The points-based system gives fewer

options to fewer people. You made an interesting point about nationalism,

the idea there's a governing body that sits above Parliament. I would

imagine you are in support in the House of Lords reform and against

that reform, I would also imagine their a Monarchist and I would also

imagine that you agree with an unelected head of state.

Hold on. This isn't about personal things, it's about the... The

legislative body that sits above the democratically elected Government,

the House of Lord is the same and the monarchy isn't. I'm surprised at

the democracy argument because every rule that's made in Brussels has to

be approved by the European Parliament Which is elected and by

the Council of Ministers that consists of elected politicians. The

only reason those issues like trade and customs, like fish conservation,

are issues for Brussels, is because we aeed that in the treaty. Britain

has agreed that -- agreed in the treaty. We shouldn't have done. More

of a democratic deficit in this country as a friend here pointed out

in terms of issues like the House of Lords, the voting system we both

agree on. That is a democratic deficit. Also, look at the amount of

good that's been delivered through that nationalism. If you think about

all the member states from Eastern Europe had to sign up to the

European Convention on Human Rights, that meant homosexuality had to be

decriminalised. This super national... David Cameron is having

to negotiate with him, it will be interesting to see. In order to

join, they had to sign up to legislation that the local public

wouldn't have agreed to. It's delivered progress, prosperity and

better human rights. I want to bring in some other guests around the

table. No sane person would consider

breaking up a union of countries that have been in conflict for

hundreds of years,... A EU migrant, born in Belgium, lived

in the UK for 21 years. Tell us your perspective. I believe this is about

British people deciding what will be the law on the streets of Britain. I

believe British people should decide what happens here, what is the rules

here. I heard Mr Johnson's argument earlier. In the European Parliament,

in the last five years, five out of six proposals, the British MEPs

voted against, and were outvoted and the proposals went ahead,

regardless, and became law. In the Council of ministers, we are

routinely outvoted. There is majority voting and qualified voting

on a large number of issues and we are routinely outvoted. It is about

self-determination. I came to this country 21 years ago, I integrated,

I became British and I now have the view that is what I think is the

view of most people in this country, we should be in charge of our own

destiny and laws. It should not be decided by a majority in Spain, in

Hungary, France... Let me say, as you know, the only specific issue

set out in the treaties that are decided in Brussels are those issues

on trade, customs, eurozone countries. We agreed to every one of

those in the treaty. You are talking as if we debate issues like the

voting age in Europe, like our policing system. We don't. We decide

all of that in Parliament. You explained the terrible situation in

Norway, countries such as Singapore, presumably Switzerland, they are in

the same position. What a terrible fate, to be like Norway, Switzerland

and Singapore, some of the richest countries in the world. Except in

every single European Union rule. -- accepting. They accept order

decisions you talk about, they have not a single say in them. Not a

single influence. They let us stay in the European Union. Because that

is where those countries are. In everything except they have no

influence on the laws. Rosa is a EU migrant and you think

we should stay? I am originally from Spain, I studied in Spain, the

Spanish government paid for my university education. I moved to

London 15 years ago, I have been working for 15 years, I have a nice

job, I have been paying for my taxes. I was sad to see the video

that presents migrants as people coming here looking for benefits. I

don't believe that. That is the message I got. I have paid very high

taxes for 15 years. I can count on this hand how many times I have used

GP services. I contributed to this economy. I pay taxes and I also,

politicians like Alan, they have made it possible, for us to be in

the European Union. I think it is such a backwards... To such against

progress, does not make sense. I am sure you are a better contributed

than the English that live on the Costa Del Sol in retirement homes

and don't contribute very much. Helen, you want to leave the EU,

why? I think it is interesting, what you are saying, talking about

business and democracy. One of the biggest problems with the EU is the

total lack of transparency in the organisation. They have nothing like

what we have with the Freedom of Information Act, one of the most

important bastions of our democracy. That means things like research that

I have looked at recently, one of the biggest recipients of grants is

Coca-Cola. We think that these are going to helping normal people, but

it is actually helping big businesses who would be here anyway,

they don't need subsidies. Animal welfare, as well, animal welfare. It

was one of the most disappointing thing is in my life, that they pay

out to Coca-Cola, but students living abroad, took three months for

me to get my grant. If you disappointing. It's a fair point on

transparency. Nobody is saying there are things that do not need to be

reformed in Europe. We have been talking about things that need to be

reformed here in this country. There is no perfect institution. Greater

transparency would be excellent. It would massively help, especially

things like the European Commission, which is a completely unnecessary

organisation. In the British Parliament, we don't need

bureaucrats sitting around and thinking of new laws. We do, they

are all in Whitehall. Jonathan? I think it is a difficult issue. I

agree that the EU institutions are very bureaucratic, and there is a

lot of waste there. But I think that is something that needs to be

reformed. Having a four point policy I want this, this and this all we

are out, is not the right way to reform. I just want to touch on some

of the vague economic claims that Susannah is making. You touched on

entrepreneurs and start-up businesses. I do have a starter

business. You say only 5% of British businesses trade with the EU. My

business, we do much more trade with the US. However, what you need to

build a business, particularly in the early stage, you need people

that are willing to take a risk and invest in you with a chance that the

money is going to disappear. You also need people to carry out the

jobs. As a business, we are not based in London, my business and the

majority of my team is based in Newcastle. There is not the same

access to private investment in the north-east as there is here,

particularly for the earliest stage start-up businesses. What we get

from the EU, the European investment bank and the E RDF, funds that allow

venture capitalists organisations that impressed with the backing of

investment. -- invest. My business and not be here without that fund,

it has resulted in matched funding from other individuals. Where you're

getting money from is not the EU, you're getting it from European

Union member state tax payers. It is not the EU's money, it is tax payer

money. One of the interviews I did for the report that was cut from the

final report was with the leader of Kent County Council. He gets grants

from the EU and he was saying, frankly, sometimes, the conditions

put on them, they are so difficult to enforce you might as well not

have the money. If we leave the European Union, we could still

invest in businesses like your start-up, and we would all be glad

to see that happen. But without the red tape, without going through the

middleman, without the middleman associated costs and without the

kind of restrictions and regulations that the EU, just because it likes

to meddle, sticks on them. A quick response? The whole point of this is

that we agree, this idea that Europe is something that is something done

to Britain. We have agreed that the structural

Of course you can't. For goodness sake. The top ten countries export.

50% of our exports are to Europe. We can only do that through a trade

agreement. Iceland can't, Lichtenstein can't without signing

up. Sorry, let me just tell you, everyone's entitled to their own

due, no-one's entitled toe their own facts. You... Trade with Europe

without a trade agreement. If you pull out. We knew this. You are

going to have to renegotiate. Russia, Brazil, China Japan, the USA

trade without an agreement. Sorry, we are right out of time. We knew

this would be a heated debate. It has been.

Thank you all very much. If you want to see the films again

or missed either of them, they are on the website.

Thank you for joining us today. Still to come: lifestyle over luck.

A new report says poor lifestyle is a factor in up to 90% of cancers. We

speak to one cancer expert. And the curious Case of a British backpacker

lost and found in Thailand. The Prime Minister is expected to

beat opposition to his plans to curb benefits for EU migrants at a

meeting of European leaders later. It is one of a number of reforms

that David Cameron is hoping to secure ahead of a referendum on

Britain's's EU membership. Earlier, the President of the European

Commission said he wanted a fair deal for Britain and the EU. This

dialogue, which will be a negotiation, in an open-minded way,

I don't want the British to leave. The British have their points, we

have our points. We will find their way out of the complicated situation

we are in. A new study in the United States has concluded up to 90% of

all cancers are caused by environmental and lifestyle factors

such as smoking. The challenge is a report earlier this year that

indicated that most cancers were the result of random cell mutation.

Seven former paratroopers have won a legal battle to avoid being detained

and transferred to Northern Ireland to be questioned about the Bloody

Sunday killings in 1972. Lawyers for the ex-soldiers argued that there

was a danger their lives were repacked unnecessarily at risk.

Instead, there will be interviewed in England or Wales. A British

tourist reported missing by his family has been found walking on a

beach in southern Thailand. Jordan Jacobs, 21, was due to fly home

today. His family launched an appeal after becoming concerned for his

safety. The Government says it is cutting subsidies for solar panels

on homes by 64%. In the summer, ministers proposed a reduction of

87%. Industry figures say the concession does not go far enough.

Let's catch up with the sport. The morning's main headlines:

Children as young as five will be targeted as part of a new Government

strategy to involve more people It means Sport England will now

spread its ?1 billion pound more widely and the Premier League

will double its BBC Sport understands Dylan Hartley

is being lined up as the favourite to replace Chris Robshaw

as England's Rugby Union captain. Eddie Jones is said to want

a more confrontational leader. Spurs have had planning permission

for a new 61,000 seater stadium granted on the site of their current

ground, White Hart Lane. The development will include a hotel

and medical centre - the club are hopeful it will be

complete for the start And AP McCoy will been honoured

with a Lifetime Achievement Award at Sunday's BBC Sports Personality

of the Year ceremony in Belfast. The 20-time Champion Jockey won

the main award in 2010 And that's all the sport for now,

but I'll have more on BBC News throughout the day,

including a big day Can you prevent yourself getting

cancer? A new study suggests that environmental factors and lifestyle

choices have a bigger role to play in contracting the disease than

previously thought. The research from the United States says up to

90% of all cancer is due to external factors such as smoking or drinking

too much alcohol. It challenges a report earlier this year that

indicated most cancers were down to bad luck and the result of random

cell mutation. Carol is a cancer specialist who joins me via webcam.

What do you think about this? I think there are two sides to it. The

real answer is in the middle. Cancer is a statistical disease. As we

live, we accumulate cell damage, which can sometimes turn into

abnormal growth which becomes cancerous. So, two things. First,

there is the statistical chance, all the time, that we are going to get

cancer, however perfect our lifestyle. But we increase the

chance of getting cancer if we do certain things such as smoking, not

eating fruit and vegetables, getting too fat, not doing enough exercise

and so on. We know this. How you do the calculation depends on the

results you get. I think 90% is probably a little high. It is

probably 70 or 80% caused by lifetime. The older we live, and it

is great we have many people living to be 90, the more chance we get

cancer. That is why cancer is going up in Britain and all Western

countries. Whether you peg the statistic at 90%

or between 70 and 80% as you do, how many of those potentially wouldn't

get cancer at all? Statistically a third of them wouldn't if we all led

a perfect lifestyle and we all know the messages, they are very boring

and it's very difficult to convince people because it's not just doing

it for a week or a weekend, you've got to do it for 50 or 50 years and

the longer, as owe wet older, there is an increased chance there'll be

mutation and change in cells -- 40 or 50 years. To try to avoid this,

we have to be perfect about our lifestyle. I'm not perfect myself by

any means, I know that, but I do try and getting that message over is

really important. It's a long-term public health message to get over.

Are there many cancers that are purely genetic? There are some

inherited cancers. We have absolutely no control of your genes,

how you have been passed them down by your mother and father and they

have no control on that, so it's like a poker game where you are

given a set of cards and there's nothing you can do about that. But

even with that, you can reduce the chances, say you come from a family

with a very high instance of breast cancer, so - sorry about that - high

incidence of breast cancer, it's clear that what you have to do there

is look at lifestyle, diet and so on, even more importantly. Thank you

very much Professor. The Russian President, Vladimir

Putin, says the Syrian people should hold elections to decide who rules

them. Speaking at a news conference in Moscow, Vladimir Putin said

Russia will continue air strikes in Syria for as long as the Syrian Army

continues its own military operations.

TRANSLATION: We shall never agree that somebody from the outside

wherever would really impose their views on how you should run the

country. It's not common-sense and of course I spoke with John Kerry

about it and our position is unchanged and our position is a

principled position - the Syrian people must decide who will rule

them. Let's go to our correspondent who is

in Moscow. O what do you make of his comments on Syria, Oleg? They were

more peaceful than usual because normally Vladimir Putin stresses the

contradictions in approach of the West versus Russia. Here, he was

talking rather a lot about the latest American proposals for the

United Nations Resolution and he said this is broadly in alliance

with the Russian position. He hopes there will be a path to new

elections, developing some sort of electoral Meg name which will be

transparent by all sides of the Syrian conflict and saying that

generally here Russia and America are agreeing, so maybe there is some

hope. Is there any suggestion of any real

change then in Russian policy? Well, I wouldn't go that far. He says

they'll continue to support Syrian Army and, of course, as usual,

Vladimir Putin does not accept that somebody can conduct operations in

Syria without getting the permission of Syria's authority, so in

fundamentals, the position hasn't changed but the diplomacy is the art

of negotiating the fundamentals. This is his annual address to the

nation. What else has he been talking about?

Well, he's back into the economics of Russia, the press conference has

started about the talks of crisis, about the toll that the crisis puts

on the Russian population. He was asked rather elaborately on the

latest corruption scandal and anyone who followed knew this was a scandal

involving the Russian family of the Russian Prosecutor General, Mr Putin

was asked if it was time to act now. Here his reply was lacklustre, he

said, thank you for bringing our attention to it, we are paying

attention to it, but essentially no conclusion of a pretty damning

report on this. How closely watched will this be in Russia? I doubt

anyone of the Russian population stays ghueed to the TV scents for

two hours watching this, but it's well promoted. It never normally

brings any sensations. This is Vladimir Putin with his art of

either showering numbers over the audience explaining the economy or

skilfully turning away from the uncomfortable questions or again

expressing his views on foreign policy. We haven't heard any big

sensation so far, I doubt any will come now. Is this more than speaking

to people outside of Russia? This is generally to the people inside of

Russia and to compensate Russian and foreign media who're being kept on

rather strict diet as far as access to Mr Putin goes, he does speak

rarely and so this is their chance to ask questions, not necessarily to

get the proper answers. Thank you very much.

In the last half hour, it's been confirmed a British backpacker

reported missing by family in Thailand has been found safe and

well. The incident is a mystery and we don't have the details about what

happened. It started when the family of Jordan Jacobs who is 21 issued a

desperate plea for help after receiving a distressing phone call

from him in which he said he was being held against his will and they

would never see him again. Jonathan Head is in Bangkok. This has been

quite a turnaround because it was all sounding very dramatic. Tell us

what has happened? The message is that Jordan Jacobs' family got from

him a phone call and Facebook message where I think to say the

least alarming referring to something in his past that had

caught up with him, being with a man he described that everything being

afraid of this man and the man wouldn't allow him to go and stating

that he'd never see them again. Slightly rambling messages as well.

It wasn't clear how clear-headed he was when he wrote them. His mother

was crying when he rang up. She managed to contact the restaurant

where he was phoning from. The Cypriot man who lent the phone

described him in a state not having any shoes or possessions when he

made the call. Since the weekend, they'd heard nothing from him so

they were understandably extremely alarmed. We were set to go down

there. Things do happen to tourists here in Thailand, there are a lot of

them and mishaps happen. As it happens, the police have been

looking for him and found him strolling on the beach in Ko Pi Pi

apparently unaware that people were looking for him and relatively

unaware about what he must have said to his parents. We have seen the

photographs and it's definitely him. At least Liz family will be very

relieved now but nobody knows why he was issuing the desperate calls if a

few days later he appears to be enjoying his holiday. What is going

to happen because I think he was supposed to be flying back to UK

today wasn't he? Yes, he's been travelling, typically in a gap year,

he was in Australia and he told the Thai police, you know, they said why

should you have contacted my family, I'm still enjoying myself so he had

decided he was going to stay a bit longer. I imagine his mum might have

something to say about keeping in touch with folks at home, but he'll

be in touch with his parents. He appears to be in perfect health with

no problems. Thank you very much.

Let's just bring you some comments on what is happening with Europe

after our very lively studio discussion earlier. Handley split up

for you in three comments that are pro, three that are against. Forbes

on Facebook, we need to stay but with reform and it can't be reformed

if we leave it needs something. Stu on Facebook, it would be short

sighted to leave the EU when we rely heavily on trade and workforce from

the EU. We import more than we export and Mr Cameron is telling

lies when he says we can get the same deal with the EU but outside of

its jurisdiction, businesses would suffer increased overheads which

would be put on consumers making the EU more expensive to live in. If the

UK decides to leave, how can those who want to stay in become EU

citizens of the world and not a fascist island? And three against,

Melanie, I think it's time to leave the EU is far more than its original

intentions and continues to take more from member states while not

being democratlically elected. The EI wants our money. It costs ?55

million a day to stay in the EU, money we need to boost us into the

21st century. Graham says the EU is beyond the level of reform needed to

stop it turning into a state with increasing membership far from

rigorous financial controls and it's doomed to failure.

The European Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said EU

leaders will find a way out of the complex situation created by David

Cameron's demand for changes to Britain's relationship with the

union. He was speaking ahead of talks in Brussels.

As far as the so-called Brexit question is concerned, we'll have a

frank and open debate, the first time that it will be a debate with

substantial material of what is called the exit. The British Prime

Minister will explain. I'm not a spokesman of the British Government,

so we'll leave it to his responsibility to make this clear to

the outside world. As far as the Commission is concerned, even during

the campaign, we have been both running for the presidency of the

commission. I made it clear, as did Martin, that we want this fair deal

with Britain and it has to be fair deal for the other 27 too, so we are

open-minded and we are engaging in this dialogue which will be a

negotiation with Britain in open-minded ways. I don't want the

British to leave and I don't want to blame the British. They have their

points, we have our points and that's reasonable. We'll find a way

out of the complicated situation we are in.

More coverage of the talks on BBC News throughout the day and you can

watch the films made for us by Labour's Alan Johnson and Ukip's

Suzanne Evans on the programme page. Some amazing pictures for you of a

diver swimming between two continents. There's only place on

the plane ewhere it's possible to do that in Iceland. The space is so

narrow that you can touch Europe and North America at once.

I'll be back from 9. 15 tomorrow morning here on BBC Two, the BBC

News Channel and online. Have a great day, see you tomorrow. Bye.