11/02/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


11/02/2016

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Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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Junior Doctors in England face having new working contracts forced

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upon them after they reject the Government's 'take it

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Plus, the most senior police officer in this country says police should

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change their approach to allegations of rape and sexual abuse and not

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automatically believe the complainant.

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There is a grave danger at the moment with the advice around that

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perhaps there is a tendency to think that we always believe the

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complainant. That's not good for any officer.

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We'll get reaction from rape campaigners.

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Also on the programme, parents whose children have cancer

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tell us about the devastating impact a delay in diagnosis can have.

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You lose not just a part of you and them, but their future as well. It's

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the life that they haven't had. You know, the chances in life that they

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haven't had. They maybe didn't have the chance to go to school, to have

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a boyfriend, girlfriend, to get married, to do anything in life.

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over their controverisal ?130 million tax deal.

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Hello, welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC

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Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

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and developing stories and as always we really want to hear from you...do

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get in touch in the usual ways; texts will be charged

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And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

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you are via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

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When it comes to claims of sexual abuse and rape,

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should the alleged victim always be believed when they make

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their initial complaint to their police?

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After historical sex abuse cases like Jimmy Savile and more recent

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cases of child sexual grooming where the treatment of victims

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was widely criticised, the criminal justice system had

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In 2014 a report for Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary said:

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"The presumption that a victim should always be believed

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In other words, believing alleged victims should be the norm.

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Now though Britain's top police officer, the head

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of the Metropolitan police, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is saying

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detectives investigating sex crimes should not believe

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After announcing a review of such cases, he says officers should

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investigate allegations with an open mind.

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I think we have really got hung up on this word of belief. It's

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confused officers. My point would be, we have to be empathetic, we

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want people to believe we are going to listen to them. We have to be

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open minded, then we have to listen to what they say, what the suspect

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tells us. There is a grave Daning we are the advice around that perhaps

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there is a tendency to think we'll always believe any complaint made

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and that's not wise for any good investigator.

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Also, calling for anonymity of public figures accused of sex

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crimes unless and until they are charged.

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Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is under increasing criticism over the way

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he and his force have handled historical sex abuse cases,

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particularly those of Lord Bramall, the former head of the army

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and a widely respected war hero, and Lord Brittan, a former Home

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92-year-old Lord Bramall found out last month he wouldn't face any

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charges; he says it took detectives ten months before they spoke

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to witnesses who cast doubt on the allegations.

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Lord Brittan was being investigated over a rape allegation

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from the 1960s, died last year without being told the case

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Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is facing mounting pressure to apologise

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to Lord Bramall and the Lord Brittan's widow over

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the way his force handled her husband's case.

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There are also questions over whether his contract with the Met

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which is up in September this year should be extended.

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He told us last year he wanted it to be.

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Whatever he meant to suggest, the way it's being report suicide that

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police officers should take a degree of scepticism about what it is that

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complainants say to them which some might say is an unfortunate message

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to those who believe they have been victims of serious sexual offences

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who may be put off reporting as a result of this. Whether he intended

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that or not. I have to say, I'm slightly baffled by his response

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because, in a way, what police officers believe or don't believe is

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completely irrelevant. They are not therapists, judges and juries, they

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are not expected to be, they are investigators. When we did the CPS

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report into the failures to prosecute Jimmy Savile back in 2013,

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the conclusion that I reached in relation to that was that what had

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gone wrong was that the investigations of serious sexual

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offences were applying a different standard for sexual offences than

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those that would apply to other offences. I can give you an analogy.

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I would not expect the police to get on with things. If I walked into my

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local police station and said I was burglared 30 years ago, before they

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went around arresting people, I would expect them to check whether I

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was living in that house 30 years ago and the point about this is

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that, although we have an enormous amount of respect for the retired

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High Court judge. The judge who Sir Bernard is putting in charge of

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reviewing in particular Operation Midland, an historical sexual case

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involving establishment figures from decades ago? Quite so. For which Sir

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Bernard and the force have been roundly criticised? We are in danger

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of getting into a situation where we are going to have inquiries into

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inquiries, there are lots running already. How should society approach

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allegations of serious sexual offences, particularly when it's

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said they took place a long time ago. We are trying to achieve a

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balance of fairness, fairness to the complainants because we'd not want

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to put them off. If people have been Tim Timms of crimes, it should be

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investigated, also fair tonnes the accused because if they are never

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going to a court, how can it be right that their reputations and

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names are put all over the press. And, although, it may be that Sir

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Richard's inquiry takes evidence and maybe very thorough and rigorous,

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there are, it seems to me, some practical steps that the police can

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take that would seek to achieve that balance. The first one is, in these

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very old allegations, they should make the arrest or the interview or

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the search of the suspect's home pretty much the last thing they do,

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rather than the first thing they do. What are they expecting to achieve

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by interviewing somebody about an allegation about something that

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happened 30 years ago? Whether that person is guilty or whether they are

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innocent, all they can say is "I didn't do it. " That doesn't move

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the investigation forward enough. 20 officers turning up at Lord

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Bramall's house to investigate it, what did they think they were going

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to find after 30 years? If they started the other end and

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investigated the allegation before they got to dealing with the suspect

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then that might have led them to a different conclusion at an earlier

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stage that some say might have been fair tore the suspect. But it might

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not. Yes. Given that these are sensitive cases, as a general rule,

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you can always depart from it, but as a general rule, it may be that is

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the fairer way of going about it. Was Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe right? We

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asked him to come on the programme and he declined, so we are going off

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his article. In the first instance and he's quoting from a report in

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2014, in the first instance, is officers should proceed on the basis

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that the allegation is truthful. I agree and would add that a good

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investigator would test the accuracy of the allegations and the evidence

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with an open mind, supporting the complainant through the process.

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This is a more neutral way to begin than saying we should believe

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victims and better describes our impartial mindset. On a cold

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objective reading, that would seem to be perfectly sensible. And it

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doesn't seem to need saying, it's extraordinary that they ever took a

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different view. You may be right there and people may agree with you,

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but the message that might get reported to alleged victims is, we

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are going to be a bit more sceptical of you in the future. And you are

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going to have to demonstrate to us that this did happen to you, which

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is impossible in many cases. One of the reasons that there is a concern

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about, not putting too high a threshold for sexual offences, is

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that by the very nature of these things, they tend to happen in

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private between two people without any witnesses there. They very

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rarely result in any scientific or medical evidence, so it's going to

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be one person's word against another's. If you say, we are never

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going to prosecute in that situation, there are going to be an

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awful lot of serious offences that go unpunished and that cannot be

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right. And it can only proceed to charge if they think there's a

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realistic prospect of conviction? Yes, meaning it's more on an

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objective evaluation of the evidence it's more likely than not that a

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jury will convict. Yes. Your point that you made about suspects is also

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raised by Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe in his article. He's saying, I think

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for the first time, I believe the time is right for suspects facing

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allegations of sexual offences to be offered anonymity prior to any

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charge. I'm not clear whether he's just talking about famous people or

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all suspects when it comes to sexual offences. You think that's right? I

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think it's right. Just for public figures or for everybody? For

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everybody. Even if you are not a well-known person, if you are known

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in your local community, it can be damaging for you. How do you assess

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who is a public figure and who isn't. When names are released to

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the media, that's led to other alleged victims coming forward and

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cases being taken to Saux Cescful conviction? In some cases and it's a

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very important point -- taken to a successful conviction. The point

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about charge is, at that stage, the lawyer has assessed the evidence and

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said there is sufficient evidence for the case to proceed. That seems

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to be a reasonable point at which the names can be released. Trying to

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hold this balance, but there shouldth should always be an

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exception pre-charge for the police to apply, for example, to a judge to

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say krks we actually have permission to release the name because we are

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able to demonstrate that there is a reasonable prospect that, if the

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name is out in the public domain, that will assist the investigation.

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What about the media applying to have the name released because they

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may have been contacted by alleged victims? This is something about

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which the Government has to legislate. It seems extraordinary

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that they haven't done so already because, broadly speaking, this very

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modest proposal has broad support from all sides. I say modest but

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constitutionally, it's quite important because it's a departure

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from the normal rule of, if you like, open justice. But it is a

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matter for the Government because I it needs to be properly debate.

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Debated. Also Sir Bernard Cannes enforce that across the country.

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There are 43 police forces, he is only in charge of the Metropolitan

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Police force. If another police force takes a different view, he

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can't make it happen, although he is influential.

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We'll bring you more reaction to what Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has been

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suggesting. Now some breaking news. Norman Smith is at Westminster. It's

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to do with the junior doctor's strike and a potential imposition of

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the contracts from Jeremy Hunt, England's Health Secretary? Yes.

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Here is the letter sent by Mr Hunt's chief negotiator, Sir David Dalton,

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to Mr Hunt this morning, saying time to impose the contract, no deal is

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possible. In other words, end of negotiations, the Government should

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impose the contract. Now, in the negotiations, the Government should

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letter, Sir David said he warned the BMA yesterday that if they did not

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accept the offer by 3pm, he'd assume there was no point in negotiating.

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He says "everyone's first preference has always been for a negotiated

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outcome. Unfortunately, this no longer seems possible. On this

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basis, I therefore advise the Government to do whatever it deems

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necessary to end uncertainty for the service and to make sure that new

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contract is in place. " In other words, forget about negotiations,

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there isn't going to be a deal, you need to impose the contract. Now,

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the critical question from that is, what on earth do the doctors do now?

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Do the BMA pack up their bags, two home and accept it's game over, or

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do they seek to carry on with industrial action and seek to

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escalate it? Remember, they did have this option of having an all-out

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strike, on pulling the plug on emergency cover too. They were

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planning action where which would be no junior doctors at work. Will they

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return to that given the fact Jeremy Hunt has decided to call their bluff

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and say forget it, I'm going to impose the deal. Do you know what

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was in the final offer? Well, I know what was the breaking point and the

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breaking point was Saturdays. They must be treated as a normal working

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day because Mr Hunt says that is part of making the NHS a seven-day a

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week Health Service. He does not want Saturdays to be a special day

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when junior doctors get paid more. The junior doctors are adamant that

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Saturday is not part of the normal working week and it was a sort of

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issue of principle for both sides. Mr Hunt was not prepared to back

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down, the doctors were not prepared to back down, and on that basis, I

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think Mr Hunt's decided OK, let's just see what happens if I impose

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it. I mentioned the reaction of the doctors, the other critical factor

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is the reaction of the public and, when you look at the opinion polls,

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so far, they have been overwhelmingly supportive of the

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doctors, something like two thirds support the doctors' action. I know

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talking to ministers, they think beneath the figures, actually, the

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support for the doctors is much less solid because many, many people

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actually rather like the idea of moving to a seven-day NHS so I think

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the view in Government is it's not game over when it comes to public

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opinion. I know you will be back with us if

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there is any more development. We will bring the any reaction from

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doctors and the BMA. If you have any appeal on what is happening in the

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NHS and the fact that we are being told, from Norman, that, having had

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the final offer rejected, this contract will now be imposed on

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junior doctors, let us know what you think, get in touch in the usual

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ways. The public's reaction is crucial, let's hear what you think

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about the fact that these contracts will be imposed.

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Let's go back to our conversation about how the police deal with

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allegations of rape and sexual assault. The boss of the Met today

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suggesting that the police should change their approach to

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complainants and not automatically believe them when they make their

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initial complaint. Comments from you, Matt on Facebook says, the

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police have a duty to believe anyone who alleges a crime has happened to

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them. Then they can do their job and investigate to see if those

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allegations stand up. Mark on Facebook says, no, police

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should be objective and professional. Some allegations will

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be true, some false. Andrea on Facebook, the police

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should treat any complainant with sympathy butchered neither believe

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nor disbelieve what they are told. They should follow the evidence it

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is evidence that forms the basis of court proceedings, not police

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belief. Another on Facebook, it is

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ridiculous they should believe the accuser or the accused, the evidence

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is the only thing they should follow.

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A tweet, the police should work in a professional, timely and unbiased

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manner. Lisa Long stuff is from the charity

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Women Against Rape. How do you react to what Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has

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suggested? Those comments are well-informed and I think Alison

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Levitt, who spoke earlier, had a good point when she said that if you

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reported a burglary you would not expect to be to be a liar. I think

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women and children reporting rape have to assume, in order to come

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forward, that they will be taken seriously and that their crime is

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going to be investigated impartially, to see if there is

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enough evidence to take it to court. That is what Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe

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is saying, it will be taken seriously, and investigated

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impartially. He is suggesting they will not all unconditionally be

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believed, which you could argue the pendulum has swung towards that in

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recent years after the saddle failures. I don't think the pendulum

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has swung towards that, I think there is an outcry from the

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establishment who have not screamed about what happened since Savile,

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they have now screamed because some of their people have been

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investigated, like the rest of the population. It is unpleasant to be

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accused of a crime but you have not heard them shout when 20 officers

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have dawn raided other people's houses, only when it is high in the

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establishment. What your viewers don't know if there have been a

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number of important convictions over the last few years, but the media

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has only focused on celebrities. But actually there have been heads of

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children's homes, parents of children, people in care homes who

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have been convicted of very serious serial rape and sexual assault of

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young children, and there are now a number of campaigns across the

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country of survivors who have got together, coming to groups like

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ours, campaigning for justice, and I think it is time that the pendulum

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swinging argument was put to bed. Do you think what he is saying today

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will deter some alleged victims from coming forward? It certainly will

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have deterred already some victims from coming forward, some people who

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have not yet come forward who are in touch with us, and there are many

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more people who have yet to be reported to need to face justice.

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The NSPCC have released this statement in reaction to what Sir

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Bernard Hogan-Howe has said: We are deeply disturbed that the proposed

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change of police approach to sexual abuse victims could be a serious

:19:52.:19:54.

part of them coming forward at a time and

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people have found the confidence and courage to report these crimes.

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It would be a tragedy to bring this progress to a juddering cold. You

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clearly agree with that. Can I ask about his other proposal, I'm not

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sure whether he means all people with these allegations against them

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or just high profile ones, but that they should all have anonymity until

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they are charged? We should see this in the context of war crimes, either

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all people accused of crimes should be given anonymity until charged, or

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none of them. There is no reason to make rape a special case because the

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only thing that implies is that a lot of these women are lying. Why

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doesn't that apply in other crimes? Thank you very much, Lisa Long stuff

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from that crow too. Your views welcome, as always.

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Thanks for joining us today, still to come:

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We speak to a leading children's charity that says nearly half

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of parents of kids diagnosed with cancer felt their concerns

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about their child's health were ignored.

:21:06.:21:07.

Junior doctors across England return to work after a 24-hour walkout,

:21:08.:21:15.

but reject what's been described as a "final offer"

:21:16.:21:18.

from the Government on weekend working.

:21:19.:21:20.

It's expected that ministers will announce they'll impose

:21:21.:21:22.

a new contract on the junior doctors.

:21:23.:21:28.

We are expecting a statement from England's Health Secretary Jeremy

:21:29.:21:32.

Hunt at some point this morning. The head of the Metropolitan Police

:21:33.:21:34.

suggests officers investigating sexual abuse claims should keep

:21:35.:21:36.

an open mind, and not automatically Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has ordered

:21:37.:21:39.

a review into claims of historical Over 40% of parents whose children

:21:40.:21:43.

have cancer feel their concerns about their child's health

:21:44.:21:50.

are ignored by GPs, that's according It's calling for the Government

:21:51.:21:53.

provide better training for the professionals who deal

:21:54.:21:58.

with young people Liverpool football club have dropped

:21:59.:22:00.

plans in increase the price of its most expensive ticket to ?77,

:22:01.:22:09.

and apologised to fans Other top clubs are being urged

:22:10.:22:12.

to rethink their ticket pricing. A large fire has broken out at the

:22:13.:22:30.

tata still planned in Port Talbot. Emergency services are at the scene,

:22:31.:22:32.

there are no reports of casualties. Let's catch up with all

:22:33.:22:39.

the sport now and join Hugh. The Liverpool fans did it?

:22:40.:22:48.

Yes, they will not have to pay the ?77 ticket presses that were looted

:22:49.:22:54.

by the club. The club owner said they did not want to be perceived as

:22:55.:22:58.

greedy, it was quite the opposite. But what about Spain? Less than a

:22:59.:23:02.

third of the stadium in Valencia was for last night after Gary Neville

:23:03.:23:05.

try to salvage some respect after losing the first leg of his final

:23:06.:23:12.

7-0. It has been a torturous time in his first managerial post. Closer to

:23:13.:23:19.

home, it was so close, but so far to Peterborough, they took their

:23:20.:23:22.

fourth-round FA Cup replay to penalties but were beaten by Premier

:23:23.:23:26.

League side West Brom. And the second round of games in the six

:23:27.:23:30.

Nations, we will look ahead at Scotland's team, which will be

:23:31.:23:34.

announced shortly. And news of Alun Watkins, the Olympic rowing champion

:23:35.:23:38.

with Katherine Grainger in 2012, who has given up her hopes of reaching

:23:39.:23:42.

the Rio Olympics later this year after taking a three-year break from

:23:43.:23:45.

the sport to start a family. We will look at those stories just

:23:46.:23:50.

after 10am. We will speak to Liverpool fans

:23:51.:23:52.

later as well, so pleased for you. Really keen to hear from you this

:23:53.:23:58.

morning if your child has experienced a delay

:23:59.:24:01.

in diagnosis of cancer. One charity tells this programme

:24:02.:24:02.

that over 40% of parents whose children have cancer felt

:24:03.:24:05.

their concerns about their child's Not just the first time but also the

:24:06.:24:14.

second visit, and potentially the third and fourth visit.

:24:15.:24:21.

The charity Clic Sargent is now calling for the Government

:24:22.:24:23.

to ensure better training and guidance for the professionals

:24:24.:24:25.

who care for children and young people in this situation.

:24:26.:24:28.

Here are the stories of two people whose lives have been changed

:24:29.:24:40.

All my friends and family were telling me that

:24:41.:24:46.

I was a hypocondriac and joking, and like I'd get a headache

:24:47.:24:55.

and I would be like, "Oh, my God, I've got a brain tumour,"

:24:56.:24:59.

and everyone was taking the mick, basically.

:25:00.:25:01.

I found the lymph nodes, went to the doctor and he told me

:25:02.:25:04.

that it was probably because I had an infection.

:25:05.:25:20.

In all, we actually went to the GP five times,

:25:21.:25:23.

but that was seeing three different doctors.

:25:24.:25:28.

I think it was on the second visit that the doctor referred us

:25:29.:25:31.

We went to the local hospital, had an in-patient stay

:25:32.:25:42.

for a few days, but they again just

:25:43.:25:44.

assumed it was constipation and gave her treatment for that.

:25:45.:25:47.

They didn't do any other tests or scans.

:25:48.:25:55.

The specialist, obviously I don't know what they saw,

:25:56.:25:57.

but was obviously very concerned and booked her in for an MRI

:25:58.:26:00.

I kept going back probably around six or seven months to the same

:26:01.:26:04.

doctor at the same surgery and he kept telling me

:26:05.:26:08.

there was nothing wrong, I was fine, it wasn't cancer

:26:09.:26:10.

and I was being too worried about it.

:26:11.:26:20.

It was sort of a relief more than anything.

:26:21.:26:22.

Obviously I was upset but I knew that something was wrong and now

:26:23.:26:25.

it was getting dealt with so it was more of a relief

:26:26.:26:28.

They took us into a room and basically said that it was

:26:29.:26:35.

a malignant tumour, which just completely floored us.

:26:36.:26:37.

We hadn't even considered cancer as being a possible option.

:26:38.:26:39.

I think I likened it at the time to being hit by a freight train.

:26:40.:26:43.

Just completely out of the blue, hadn't even considered it

:26:44.:26:50.

as an option and it just, your world is just turned upside

:26:51.:26:53.

Your mind is on overdrive, you don't know what to do,

:26:54.:26:57.

The chemotherapy obviously does the trick but it has a massive

:26:58.:27:08.

Not only the tiredness, but problems with her muscles,

:27:09.:27:14.

to the point where she had difficulty walking.

:27:15.:27:19.

Obviously having to go around in a wheelchair,

:27:20.:27:23.

it was very difficult for her, very difficult for any young person

:27:24.:27:26.

She did start to feel better, her hair was growing back

:27:27.:27:36.

so she wasn't having the sort of poorly feelings

:27:37.:27:38.

We thought we were doing really well.

:27:39.:28:03.

That was probably more upsetting this time than it was last time,

:28:04.:28:07.

but I had the feeling that the cancer had come back

:28:08.:28:10.

already so I'd spent a lot of time upset obviously...

:28:11.:28:15.

I'd gone abroad and lived my life and done OK and then coming back

:28:16.:28:32.

to the UK it sort of, like, all the emotions I'd ignored in 2011

:28:33.:28:35.

I think this time it was losing my hair, because it had grown back

:28:36.:28:46.

and I didn't look like I'd ever had cancer.

:28:47.:28:49.

It's always in the back of your mind - relapse.

:28:50.:28:52.

Certainly having been through this journey and having met a lot

:28:53.:28:55.

of other parents of children with cancer, it's one of the things

:28:56.:29:00.

that's always there, always that fear of relapse.

:29:01.:29:02.

So when we found out, it was devastating.

:29:03.:29:07.

I never thought that I would die from cancer or anything like that,

:29:08.:29:10.

It's more the fact that I feel like I'll never get to go abroad

:29:11.:29:17.

again or travel again or it's never going to have an end.

:29:18.:29:20.

She didn't have any hair so she'd always wear a head scarf,

:29:21.:29:23.

she had a selection of different head scarfs, depending on which mood

:29:24.:29:28.

of the day would depend which head scarf she wore.

:29:29.:29:30.

She got pneumonia so she had a five-day stay in QMC in hospital

:29:31.:29:34.

and it was during that time that I think they realised

:29:35.:29:40.

that there was nothing really more that could be done, treatment-wise.

:29:41.:29:44.

They'd tried pretty much everything and she was

:29:45.:29:46.

So on the Friday she was brought home by ambulance

:29:47.:29:51.

We had the community nursing team visit once or twice a day just

:29:52.:30:01.

to make sure her medication was OK and she was comfortable

:30:02.:30:03.

She was with us for another six days.

:30:04.:30:14.

So finally we lost her on 18th September, 2014.

:30:15.:30:20.

And you lose, not just a part of you and them,

:30:21.:30:27.

And it's the life that they haven't had, you know, the chances in life

:30:28.:30:35.

that they haven't had, you know, maybe didn't have the chance to go

:30:36.:30:38.

to school, haven't had the chance to have a boyfriend,

:30:39.:30:40.

girlfriend, haven't had the chance to get married,

:30:41.:30:42.

Now that all the treatment's over and I'm not back for another three

:30:43.:30:50.

months for a scan, I can just like focus on getting my health back

:30:51.:30:53.

on track and just getting back to normality.

:30:54.:30:55.

I think one of the biggest things about childhood cancer is the fact

:30:56.:31:02.

that there's just not enough awareness.

:31:03.:31:06.

I mean, I know I'm guilty of it because before Hannah was diagnosed

:31:07.:31:09.

You occasionally see it in magazines or on the TV or things like that,

:31:10.:31:16.

but you just don't take any notice of it.

:31:17.:31:19.

So yes, you do question yourself sometimes and you think back,

:31:20.:31:24.

maybe if I'd known or been maybe a little bit more aware,

:31:25.:31:28.

if I'd known the sort of symptoms to look for,

:31:29.:31:31.

Looking back on it now, I can understand that you're not

:31:32.:31:36.

meant to know everything, doctors can't possibly know

:31:37.:31:41.

everything and maybe this certain doctor hadn't dealt with any

:31:42.:31:43.

childhood cancers or young adults with cancer so he just thought

:31:44.:31:50.

it was something innocent and wasn't sinister,

:31:51.:31:52.

so I don't look back with hatred or anything,

:31:53.:31:56.

Keep going back and pestering them until you get referred to hospital

:31:57.:32:05.

because the doctors' surgeries don't have the means necessary to diagnose

:32:06.:32:08.

cancer, the hospitals do, so you need to get referred

:32:09.:32:10.

But it's just have that awareness that it could be,

:32:11.:32:19.

you know, might not be but it could be, and if it is,

:32:20.:32:22.

then getting it caught a lot earlier is going to mean

:32:23.:32:24.

22-year-old Gemma Hakner there and Simon Cross,

:32:25.:32:29.

We can speak now to Emily King Dutton, who's 17 and was diagnosed

:32:30.:32:37.

with cancer a year after first going to her GP with symptoms.

:32:38.:32:53.

Kate Lee, from the children's cancer charity Clic Sargent.

:32:54.:33:01.

Also Dr Anthony Cunliffe, a south London GP, who spends a day

:33:02.:33:04.

a week with the cancer charity Macmillan to improve cancer care.

:33:05.:33:10.

You spend more time with Macmillan so you can find out more? One thing

:33:11.:33:19.

we'll talk about today is education. We feel strongly about GP education

:33:20.:33:25.

and that's part of my role. OK. What is it like when you keep going to

:33:26.:33:29.

the GP to say, look, I don't know what it is but there's smog wrong

:33:30.:33:32.

with me and you go back and back and back and still you get nowhere? You

:33:33.:33:36.

feel like they are not listening to you, you feel frustrated that you

:33:37.:33:41.

know there's something wrong but they don't realise it. Not only are

:33:42.:33:45.

you feeling physically ill, is that stressful? Yes, emotionally, you

:33:46.:33:49.

feel like no-one is listening and you want someone to listen to you.

:33:50.:33:54.

Eventually when you got your diagnosis, how did you react? It was

:33:55.:33:58.

a big shock. I never thought it would be cancer but it was nice to

:33:59.:34:02.

know that I knew what I had and it could be dealt with. Did you think

:34:03.:34:07.

about the delay in that diagnosis and what could have been done had

:34:08.:34:10.

you been taken more seriously earlier? Definitely. I thought if

:34:11.:34:14.

I'd been seen earlier, maybe I could have been dealt with earlier and it

:34:15.:34:18.

would have made a big difference. Kate, how typical is Emily's

:34:19.:34:24.

experience or Simon talking about Hannah or Gemma's experience?

:34:25.:34:28.

Luckily, thankfully, childhood cancer in the UK remains incredibly

:34:29.:34:34.

rare so what we know is that in the terms of how common sit, thankfully

:34:35.:34:39.

not that common but when it happens unfortunately the story is all too

:34:40.:34:45.

common, so our Clic Sergeant survey has recently shown 50% of parents

:34:46.:34:49.

and young people who've been to the doctors with a concern have been on

:34:50.:34:53.

average, three, four visits before they are taken seriously. For me,

:34:54.:34:58.

it's the reality of what that means. I've got two young children myself

:34:59.:35:02.

and when I first read the report, I was trying to put myself in the

:35:03.:35:06.

picture of going back to the GP surgery three or four times worried

:35:07.:35:10.

that I was going to be viewed as a neurotic mother but I know my child

:35:11.:35:14.

and I know something is wrong and if the GP isn't listening to me, if the

:35:15.:35:21.

worst happens, what we found is that actually, the reality is when a

:35:22.:35:25.

child is diagnosed with cancer, at a time when the family should be

:35:26.:35:30.

rallying round, supporting the child, the young person, that

:35:31.:35:34.

actually they are feeling angry, they are not trusting doctors, not

:35:35.:35:37.

trusting that they'll be listened to now, you know and they are feeling

:35:38.:35:41.

guilty. And blaming themselves? Yes, really guilty. Exactly as we heard

:35:42.:35:45.

in the story, should I have pushed harder, should I have said earlier,

:35:46.:35:50.

camped out at the surgery until the doctor done the tests. As a GP Dr

:35:51.:35:55.

Cunliffe, what advice would you give to parents. Emily is now 17, you are

:35:56.:36:00.

in remission aren't you thank goodness, that is brilliant to hear.

:36:01.:36:06.

Yes. But say a 16 or 17-year-old who goes to the GP without their

:36:07.:36:10.

parents, what can you do to get them to listen? One thing we feel

:36:11.:36:18.

strongly about, it's imperative that any young person or adult presenting

:36:19.:36:22.

themselveses to the GP, they must feel listened to. Of course they

:36:23.:36:26.

must but it's not always happening? No, but I feel they must be taken

:36:27.:36:30.

seriously and one of the things that this pole has highlighted is that

:36:31.:36:36.

GPs themselves feel they need more education around this subject -- the

:36:37.:36:40.

poll. It's not just around the signs of cancer, but education around

:36:41.:36:43.

being able to communicate and thereon young people effectively and

:36:44.:36:50.

to their parents and very much so listening to the concern of the

:36:51.:36:55.

young person or the parents. Because sometimes an individual is not

:36:56.:36:58.

necessarily going to reveal to the GP straightaway, you know what, I've

:36:59.:37:03.

been constipated for three weeks and a GP has to have that skill to draw

:37:04.:37:07.

that information out? Absolutely, you are 18, living at university for

:37:08.:37:11.

the first time, it's maybe you have been to the GP for the first time

:37:12.:37:14.

without your mum there and you have got to sit there and talk about some

:37:15.:37:19.

personal symptoms. The likelihood is that unless you have a good GP and

:37:20.:37:22.

one in five said they don't feel overly confident in talking to young

:37:23.:37:26.

people in a way that draw out their concerns in our poll, we spoke to

:37:27.:37:30.

over 1,000 GPs, the truth is that they are not getting to the bottom

:37:31.:37:34.

of the problem and it leaves the young person feeling like no-one's

:37:35.:37:38.

really listening, no-one's helping me explain what I'm going through.

:37:39.:37:42.

From your point of view, in your career, you might only diagnose

:37:43.:37:45.

cancer in a child or young person once, maybe twice. It is rare, as

:37:46.:37:51.

Kate said, thankfully, we does make it hard from a GP's point of view?

:37:52.:37:55.

Absolute lift an average GP may be involved in a new diagnosis of

:37:56.:37:59.

cancer in a child or young person maybe once or twice in their career

:38:00.:38:04.

and the other thing to highlight is, childhood cancer isn't a single

:38:05.:38:08.

entity, it can represent multiple different cancers, what that

:38:09.:38:12.

diversity means is that the challenges are quite wide-ranging

:38:13.:38:16.

and more often than not will represent a benign disease and we

:38:17.:38:19.

need to make sure GPs are educated, not only on the signs and symptoms

:38:20.:38:23.

they see regularly but on the importance of listening when it's a

:38:24.:38:32.

small presentation -- real presentation and it's persistent.

:38:33.:38:37.

There is plenty of relatively simple tests GPs can do to rule some things

:38:38.:38:40.

out to show parents that they are listening and trying. We know if a

:38:41.:38:44.

parent feels like their GP has been trying their best, they won't

:38:45.:38:48.

necessarily think their diagnosis was delayed, they won't be as angry

:38:49.:38:51.

because they felt they were listened to. Even if that takes some time.

:38:52.:38:56.

There are relatively simple tests and GPs need access to specialists.

:38:57.:39:04.

They need to be able to pick up the phone, speak to someone and ask, can

:39:05.:39:09.

I talk this through with you. Great to hear that you are in remission.

:39:10.:39:13.

Thank you very much. Thank you all very much. Sean Duffy, the national

:39:14.:39:17.

Thank you very much. Thank you all clinical director for NHS England

:39:18.:39:20.

told us, early diagnosis must be of the highest priority for cancer

:39:21.:39:22.

patients with all ages: Google's bosses will face questions

:39:23.:39:40.

this morning from MPs. We'll bring you some of the answers live. Back

:39:41.:39:47.

to the breaking news. Ministers are expected to impose a contract on

:39:48.:39:53.

junior doctors later. It comes after the Government's chief negotiator,

:39:54.:39:57.

Sir David Dalton, advised the Government to do whatever it seems

:39:58.:40:01.

necessary to end the deadlock. In a letter published in the last hour,

:40:02.:40:04.

he says, everyone's first preference has always been for a negotiated

:40:05.:40:09.

outcome. Unfortunately, this no longer seems possible. I therefore

:40:10.:40:14.

advise the Government to do whatever it deems necessary to end the

:40:15.:40:17.

uncertainty for the service and to make sure that a new contract is in

:40:18.:40:23.

place as close as possible to the final position put forward to the

:40:24.:40:25.

BMA yesterday. Dr Jonathan Barnes in an

:40:26.:40:33.

anaesthetist in London who took part in yesterday's strike and Dr Dagan

:40:34.:40:39.

Lonsdale is a registrar in the intensive care unit of St George's

:40:40.:40:43.

Hospital in South London. Welcome back of you. Dr Lonsdale, what are

:40:44.:40:48.

you going to do now? We need toe wait and see what Jeremy Hunt has to

:40:49.:40:51.

say in the House of Parliaments today. The first thing I would say

:40:52.:40:54.

is that it's quite a shock to me that they have decided to take this

:40:55.:40:59.

stance. I don't understand what the rush is to gets a contract imposed

:41:00.:41:04.

and I think the concept of imposition just shows a complete

:41:05.:41:07.

failure on behalf of the Department of Health to engage with the

:41:08.:41:10.

professionals who look after patients day in day out and forcing

:41:11.:41:15.

a contract on doctors, doctors who have concerns about that contract,

:41:16.:41:19.

is taking a huge gamble, a huge gamble with patients in the NHS

:41:20.:41:25.

because if it leads to dangerous working practises, the only people

:41:26.:41:29.

who'll suffer are patients. Dr Jonathan Barnes, what will you do?

:41:30.:41:35.

From the outset when Jeremy Hunt talked about medicine lacking

:41:36.:41:37.

vocation and professionalism, we knew which way the negotiations were

:41:38.:41:42.

going to go and it's been aggressive and derisory the whole time. It's

:41:43.:41:45.

very sad we have not reached agreement and for a lot of doctors,

:41:46.:41:49.

if the contract is imposed, they'll be in a position where they may be

:41:50.:41:52.

working in unsafe practise, they may not be able to afford their daily

:41:53.:41:56.

cost-of-living and they'll be looking, like I will, whether you

:41:57.:42:00.

need to look at a career outside medicine or, as a massive amount of

:42:01.:42:04.

people are doing now, whether they need to look abroad, which would be

:42:05.:42:08.

terrible for the NHS. Would you consider withdrawing emergency care

:42:09.:42:12.

cover? I think ultimately, what doctors do in terms of industrial

:42:13.:42:16.

action will be dictated by the BMA. If the BMA chose the option of full

:42:17.:42:21.

withdrawal of care on the proviso there was still consultant cover and

:42:22.:42:24.

patients would be safe, I think I like most other doctors would only

:42:25.:42:30.

support Bull it but only on the provie doe that they would be safe.

:42:31.:42:37.

Do you think that would stop Jeremy Hunt imposing this contract on you

:42:38.:42:41.

Dr Lonsdale? Look, I think it's too early to start talking about further

:42:42.:42:45.

industrial action. We need to hear what Jeremy Hunt has to say and we

:42:46.:42:49.

need to hear the response from the BMA. But my view is that the only

:42:50.:42:54.

way we can look after the patients safely within the NHS is if doctors,

:42:55.:43:01.

the people who work looking after patients day-to-day are involved in

:43:02.:43:05.

the discussions about rotas and working terms and conditions. If we

:43:06.:43:09.

are not involved in those discussions, it's simply people who

:43:10.:43:13.

don't know anything about the job taking a huge gamble with people's

:43:14.:43:20.

lives quite frankly. You asked why now, why this rush, well it's

:43:21.:43:25.

because apparently senior NHS officials are advising the

:43:26.:43:29.

Government that they need to start making plans if a new contract is to

:43:30.:43:34.

be brought in this summer in terms of rotas, detailed review of rotas,

:43:35.:43:38.

staffing before contract offices are made in May in time for the August

:43:39.:43:44.

start date? But why do we need a contract for that August start date.

:43:45.:43:49.

Doctors rotate around hospitals on a four or six monthly basis. There is

:43:50.:43:53.

absolutely no practical reason why the contract needs to be in place by

:43:54.:43:58.

August 2016. Perhaps because the conversations, the negotiations have

:43:59.:44:01.

been going on for years now, perhaps that's why? Well, the negotiations

:44:02.:44:06.

have been taking part for some time with the BMA, but the Government

:44:07.:44:12.

position for the negotiations has changed consistently, particularly

:44:13.:44:16.

with this concept of Jeremy Hunt deciding that he wants to stretch

:44:17.:44:20.

the service over seven days which again doctors view as a potentially

:44:21.:44:26.

dangerous thing to do because we can't stretch the service over seven

:44:27.:44:30.

days without either making doctors work longer hours or taking them

:44:31.:44:33.

from working in the weekworking at weekends. Either of those are going

:44:34.:44:38.

to leave gaps and leave situations where doctors are working in unsafe

:44:39.:44:41.

conditions and that's not acceptable. Simply just to say I've

:44:42.:44:45.

had enough of negotiating, we need to get something done let's do it,

:44:46.:44:49.

doesn't seem to me to have much logic and the most sensible thing to

:44:50.:44:54.

me is for a sensible, negotiated settlement. If that takes time, we

:44:55.:44:57.

just have to accept that. Thank you both very much for your time. Thank

:44:58.:45:06.

you. Dr Dagan Lonsdale said he's shocked and Dr Jonathan Barnes says

:45:07.:45:10.

he will consider leaving the profession or moving abroad if the

:45:11.:45:16.

contracts are imposed. It's coming up 2010 o'clock, here is the latest

:45:17.:45:20.

weather with Carol. It's been a particularly cold start

:45:21.:45:24.

to the day. That will be replaced by sunshine and showers as we go

:45:25.:45:28.

through the day. Some of the showers are wintry, particularly so in the

:45:29.:45:31.

north. Through the course of the morning we'll continue to see the

:45:32.:45:35.

cloud break up and the sun will come out where we don't already have it.

:45:36.:45:38.

Showers in the west and the south-west and we have a weak

:45:39.:45:42.

weather front crossing Scotland that's been producing rain, sleet

:45:43.:45:45.

and snow. Through the afternoon, we could see a wee bit of snow coming

:45:46.:45:49.

out of that at lower levels, but nothing significant. In south-west

:45:50.:45:54.

England, more frequent showers through the afternoon intersporesed

:45:55.:45:59.

with sunshine. The same across Wales, sunshine and showers, wintry

:46:00.:46:02.

with height, and for Northern Ireland, again bright spells or

:46:03.:46:04.

sunny skies. Moving into Scotland, still some

:46:05.:46:13.

showers through the afternoon but there will be some sunshine, wintry

:46:14.:46:19.

again. You can see how that front is fizzling out as it heads south.

:46:20.:46:24.

Northern England, sunshine, a few showers and across the Midlands,

:46:25.:46:28.

East Anglia, Kent, down to the Isle of Wight, again back into sunny

:46:29.:46:31.

skies. Through the evening and overnight still a few showers around

:46:32.:46:35.

and then this area of low pressure brings rain across south-west

:46:36.:46:39.

England and the Channel Islands, but through this central and northern

:46:40.:46:44.

suede of the UK it will be cold enough for some frost and of course

:46:45.:46:48.

the risk of ice. We could see some patchy fog first thing in the

:46:49.:46:51.

morning, which will be slow to lift if you get it. Tomorrow is similar

:46:52.:46:55.

to today, bright spells, sunny spells, showers, some of them

:46:56.:47:00.

wintry. The dragon on a cold easterly wind across Scotland,

:47:01.:47:04.

temperatures between five and nine -- being dragged in.

:47:05.:47:08.

Hello, I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme if you've

:47:09.:47:10.

It looks like junior doctors in England will have new working

:47:11.:47:24.

It comes after the Government's cheap adviser said they should do

:47:25.:47:32.

whatever is necessary. The most senior police officer

:47:33.:47:37.

in this country says police should change their approach to allegations

:47:38.:47:39.

of rape and sexual abuse - and not automatically

:47:40.:47:42.

believe the complainant. It is a grave danger at the moment

:47:43.:47:47.

with the advice around that there is a tendency to think we will always

:47:48.:47:51.

believe any complaint made, and that is not good for an investigator.

:47:52.:47:55.

Many people getting in touch about that this morning, I will read some

:47:56.:47:56.

comments in the next hour or so. And bosses at Google face questions

:47:57.:47:58.

from MPs this morning over their controversial

:47:59.:48:01.

?130 million tax deal. And a 22-year-old man

:48:02.:48:02.

will be sentenced today for killing his unborn baby

:48:03.:48:08.

by kicking and stamping We'll speak to another woman

:48:09.:48:10.

who suffered a similar attack. The Government's chief negotiator in

:48:11.:48:33.

the junior doctors dispute has told the Health Secretary there is no

:48:34.:48:36.

realistic prospect of a deal. Doctors leaders have turned down

:48:37.:48:41.

what is described as a final offer from the Government. Ministers are

:48:42.:48:43.

now expected to impose a new contract on them.

:48:44.:48:47.

The head of the Metropolitan Police suggests officers investigating

:48:48.:48:49.

sexual abuse claims should keep an open mind, and not automatically

:48:50.:48:52.

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has ordered a review into claims of historical

:48:53.:48:55.

Over 40% of parents whose children have cancer feel their concerns

:48:56.:49:03.

about their child's health are ignored by GPs, that's according

:49:04.:49:06.

It's calling for the Government provide better training

:49:07.:49:11.

for the professionals who deal with young people

:49:12.:49:13.

Liverpool FC has dropped plans in increase the price

:49:14.:49:23.

of its most expensive ticket to ?77, and apologised to fans

:49:24.:49:25.

Other top clubs are being urged to rethink their ticket pricing.

:49:26.:49:32.

Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh.

:49:33.:49:40.

Yes, fans staying away due to ticket prices, but how about Gary Neville's

:49:41.:49:44.

Valencia? They played in the Copa

:49:45.:49:50.

Del Rey last night against Barcelona,

:49:51.:50:00.

but only 16,000 fans went to the 55,000-seater

:50:01.:50:04.

stadium to watch. Ticket prices aren't their issue -

:50:05.:50:05.

it's the team itself. They were knocked out

:50:06.:50:07.

of the competition, and haven't won a game in the league since Neville

:50:08.:50:10.

took charge in December. Tough times for the former

:50:11.:50:13.

Manchester United and England defender, in his first

:50:14.:50:15.

attempt at management. I thought, what a football club,

:50:16.:50:19.

what an opportunity, what a challenge. The time has come for me

:50:20.:50:21.

to stand up, if I had turned down this job I could have said goodbye

:50:22.:50:24.

to my credibility. Gary Neville's managerial debut ended in defeat as

:50:25.:50:27.

his side exited the Champions League. Have we got time to ask out

:50:28.:50:34.

Spain is going? It is going well, Valencia is a wonderful city, I'm

:50:35.:50:41.

learning the language, my family settled and now my big brother my

:50:42.:50:47.

boss! A dreadful night for Gary Neville last night as his side were

:50:48.:50:53.

beaten 7-0 by Barcelona. I didn't like what I thought. Valencia fans

:50:54.:51:03.

did not deserve that tonight. I have got for belief in myself,

:51:04.:51:07.

full belief in the players, and, from my point of view, the only

:51:08.:51:10.

thing you can do now to turn this around for the club and the fund is

:51:11.:51:18.

win football matches. -- for the club and the fans.

:51:19.:51:22.

So nervous times for Neville, and West Brom head coach Tony Pulis

:51:23.:51:24.

would have been sweating too last night - his Premier League side

:51:25.:51:27.

were taken to penalties in their FA Cup reply by Peterborough of League

:51:28.:51:30.

The match ended 1-1 after an impressive

:51:31.:51:34.

performance by the home side, but this penalty

:51:35.:51:36.

by Peterborough's Lee Angol was the crucial kick.

:51:37.:51:38.

Saved by Ben Foster, the second one he stopped

:51:39.:51:40.

And West Brom go through, to face Reading in the fifth round.

:51:41.:51:44.

Smaller teams from the lower leagues pushing Premier League clubs to the

:51:45.:51:50.

limit, they did that today. Absolutely fantastic, credit to

:51:51.:51:55.

them, to the league they play in and to British football, to have this

:51:56.:51:59.

sort of game, and to be involved in it, yes, it is nerve wracking. It is

:52:00.:52:04.

brilliant that we have come through but Peterborough should take a lot

:52:05.:52:05.

of credit. The London 2012 Olympic rowing gold

:52:06.:52:08.

medallist Anna Watkins has given up in her bid to qualify for the Rio

:52:09.:52:10.

games later this year. Watkins, who won gold in the double

:52:11.:52:13.

sculls with Katharine Grainger in London, returned to the sport

:52:14.:52:20.

last summer after taking a three-year break

:52:21.:52:22.

to have two children. But after recent training

:52:23.:52:24.

with the GB squad the 32-year-old feels she's not at a high enough

:52:25.:52:26.

level to compete in Brazil. And this Scotland and Wales teams

:52:27.:52:35.

for their six Nations meeting this weekend will be announced later this

:52:36.:52:38.

afternoon. I will be back with the headline at about half an hour. See

:52:39.:52:40.

you then. Hello, thank you for

:52:41.:52:41.

joining us this morning - welcome to the programme

:52:42.:52:44.

if you've just joined us. We're on BBC Two and the BBC News

:52:45.:52:46.

Channel until 11am this morning. Quite a lot of you getting in touch

:52:47.:52:55.

about our conversation about how the police deal with allegations of rape

:52:56.:52:58.

and sexual assault. The boss of the Met has suggested police should

:52:59.:53:01.

change their approach to allegations of sexual abuse and not

:53:02.:53:03.

automatically believe the complainant. This tweet, rather

:53:04.:53:10.

concerning that in a time of apparent increased sexual crimes

:53:11.:53:13.

against women Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is voicing disbelief. Another tweet,

:53:14.:53:18.

it is simple, the police should act as if sexual crime complaints are

:53:19.:53:21.

true whilst keeping an open mind. As easy as that.

:53:22.:53:23.

Do keep those coming in. Texts will be charged

:53:24.:53:25.

at the standard network rate. Wherever you are you can

:53:26.:53:28.

watch our programme online via the BBC News app or our website,

:53:29.:53:30.

bbc.co.uk/victoria. Bosses of Google and senior

:53:31.:53:41.

tax office officials are facing questions from MPs right

:53:42.:53:43.

now over the controversial deal under which Google agreed to pay

:53:44.:53:46.

?130 million to the We'll bring you some of it live,

:53:47.:53:48.

but first here's a reminder of why the amount of tax Google pays has

:53:49.:54:04.

faced criticism from almost everyone Google is one of the biggest

:54:05.:54:07.

companies in the world. Every second, 40,000

:54:08.:54:12.

Google searches are made, which adds up to 3.5 billion

:54:13.:54:13.

searches every single day and 1.2 trillion

:54:14.:54:16.

worldwide every year. The UK is one of Google's

:54:17.:54:17.

biggest markets. It makes most of its UK profits

:54:18.:54:19.

through online advertising, but it

:54:20.:54:22.

has come under increasing criticism In 2013, the value of its sales

:54:23.:54:23.

in Britain was ?3.8 billion. The independent Tax Justice Network

:54:24.:54:27.

estimates Google should in fact be paying ?200 million every

:54:28.:54:38.

year in corporation tax. It is that kind of maths that has

:54:39.:54:43.

led to comments like this They do evil in the sense

:54:44.:54:46.

that they do not pay their fair amount of tax for the common good

:54:47.:54:51.

out of economic activity they undertake here in the UK

:54:52.:54:54.

and the profits they earn I think that is

:54:55.:54:56.

reprehensible and wrong. So how does Google manage to pay

:54:57.:55:05.

the amount of tax it does legally? Essentially it says its European

:55:06.:55:09.

headquarters are in Ireland and that the UK operation,

:55:10.:55:12.

which employs 2300 people, is simply an agency

:55:13.:55:16.

of its Dublin office. It means Google can pay corporation

:55:17.:55:20.

tax in Ireland at the lower rate of 12.5%, compared

:55:21.:55:26.

with 20% in the UK. Last month's agreement

:55:27.:55:30.

between Google and the UK tax authorities to pay ?130 million

:55:31.:55:33.

in back taxes in Britain has been widely criticised,

:55:34.:55:38.

but the search giant insists they have

:55:39.:55:39.

always played fair. We have followed the rules

:55:40.:55:43.

as they were and we are now going to be following the rules

:55:44.:55:46.

of the change. We want to move fast

:55:47.:55:48.

because we want to ensure Really as a company we want to focus

:55:49.:55:51.

on investing and hiring This is a real vindication of this

:55:52.:55:55.

Government's approach. The Chancellor George Osborne

:55:56.:55:59.

described the deal as a victory while Labour's John McDonnell said

:56:00.:56:08.

the sums were trivial. Most people find it unacceptable

:56:09.:56:10.

and I think we need to know why. Meanwhile it is reported some

:56:11.:56:13.

European tax authorities are chasing It is even more important for us

:56:14.:56:16.

as Google to do the hard work. This week we also learned

:56:17.:56:20.

that the tech giant's chief exec Sundar Pichai has been awarded

:56:21.:56:24.

?138 million in shares, 8 million more than it has agreed

:56:25.:56:27.

to pay in tax for the last ten That makes him the highest-paid

:56:28.:56:30.

chief exec in the world. The head of Google, Matt Britton, is

:56:31.:56:51.

being quizzed now let's dip in and have a watch.

:56:52.:56:57.

Further questions on how we were established in 2002 and 2003, which

:56:58.:57:02.

is before I started here so I was unaware. But the information was

:57:03.:57:07.

passed to the HMRC and considered... We will be talking to HMRC shortly,

:57:08.:57:12.

but you are already taxing my patience and the patience of

:57:13.:57:20.

hard-working taxpayers. You were a convincing win is in 2012, but let's

:57:21.:57:24.

remember that the National Audit Office have told us that they were

:57:25.:57:29.

not able to demonstrably prove that the evidence you gave in 2012 wasn't

:57:30.:57:36.

materially inaccurate, and I would draw your attention in particular to

:57:37.:57:45.

evidence that subsequently appeared after the 2012 hearing, which showed

:57:46.:57:49.

that UK staff carried out a substance of work leading to

:57:50.:57:52.

contracts with major UK clients and that there was evidence around

:57:53.:57:57.

payslips showing sales related bonus payments and that is something that

:57:58.:58:04.

you did not admit in the course of a very rigorous and robust questioning

:58:05.:58:09.

in 2012. My point is, you will forgive us if we are slightly less

:58:10.:58:17.

than convinced by the evidence. The HMRC, in their six-year process, we

:58:18.:58:21.

provided for transparency so that they could see details of contracts,

:58:22.:58:24.

interview staff, they could see details of contracts,

:58:25.:58:27.

customers, understand how our systems work and address all those

:58:28.:58:31.

questions that you raise, including the payment of commission and what

:58:32.:58:34.

exactly staff were doing in all aspects of the process. The detail

:58:35.:58:42.

was extremely rigorous and we provided for transparency to them. I

:58:43.:58:46.

should mention at this point in the interest of being fully covered,

:58:47.:58:50.

HMRC asked us for permission to doubles more information than they

:58:51.:58:52.

would normally in respect of the hearing today and we have given that

:58:53.:58:55.

permission. That is the president of Google

:58:56.:59:00.

Europe. Let me introduce our guests, who are sitting here patiently.

:59:01.:59:13.

Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Seema

:59:14.:59:15.

Malhotra, Barney Jones, a former Google employee who handed

:59:16.:59:18.

over tens of thousands of emails to investigators,

:59:19.:59:20.

Mark Littlewood, Director General of the Institute of Economic Affairs,

:59:21.:59:22.

who says Google hasn't done anything wrong,

:59:23.:59:24.

and David Babbs, Executive Director of 38 Degrees, who created

:59:25.:59:26.

a petition calling on the EU Competition Commissioner

:59:27.:59:28.

to investigate the Google-HMRC deal.

:59:29.:59:29.

I just want to play a clip from when Matt Britton was questioned earlier

:59:30.:59:33.

by MPs about his salary. Let's look at this. ?130 million? That's

:59:34.:59:37.

correct. We will get into what that involves later, but we're here for

:59:38.:59:44.

taxpayers in Britain. Do you hear the anger and frustration out there

:59:45.:59:49.

that with those huge figures you settle for a figure of ?130 million?

:59:50.:59:55.

Absolutely, and I worked with the Chancellor to come and talk to you

:59:56.:00:00.

about this. I understand the anger. Do you really understand the anger?

:00:01.:00:04.

What did you get paid? If it is relevant I will happily disclose

:00:05.:00:10.

that the committee. I'm asking what you get paid. I will disclose that

:00:11.:00:17.

if it is relevant. I am asking you, so it is relevant. I do not have the

:00:18.:00:23.

figure... So you don't know what you are paid?

:00:24.:00:27.

Is it relevant what the Google president of Europe gets paid? If we

:00:28.:00:32.

know what the chief exec of Google is getting in share options this

:00:33.:00:37.

week, which is more than Google were paying in the UK the ten years of

:00:38.:00:43.

corporation tax, I think we have a right to have some transparency. He

:00:44.:00:48.

also was talking about how HMRC have finally asked for permission to

:00:49.:00:52.

share some more details about Google's corporation tax details,

:00:53.:00:56.

and said they have given permission. Why not talk about what you are

:00:57.:01:01.

getting? People will want to know. It is an issue of transparency and

:01:02.:01:02.

openness. What Google has been doing is legal.

:01:03.:01:11.

That is the bottom line? We want to know on what legal basis the inquiry

:01:12.:01:16.

took place with HMRC, what was the process by which the conclusion was

:01:17.:01:21.

reached that ?130 million was a fair deal. We believe this is an issue of

:01:22.:01:26.

fairness,' a really important issue, that if Google paid what we

:01:27.:01:28.

understand should have been their tax liability in one year alone, in

:01:29.:01:34.

2014, that would have paid for 4,000 police officers. Sure, but... The

:01:35.:01:41.

Chancellor's not stood up to deal with this. This deal goes back ten

:01:42.:01:45.

years to when Labour was last in power. You had the chance to change

:01:46.:01:49.

the law to make sure Google paid the corporation tax in the UK that other

:01:50.:01:53.

companies paid? I think what's important to also note is that this

:01:54.:01:57.

inquiry... Could you just address that point? It started under the

:01:58.:02:02.

Labour Government, but also that the tax avoidance measures that Labour

:02:03.:02:07.

brought in have been shown recently by independent analysis to be likely

:02:08.:02:10.

to bring in ten times more in tax than the Government... Completely

:02:11.:02:14.

ignoring what I've said to you. You had five years to make Google pay

:02:15.:02:19.

corporation tax. The profits will have been growing as well in the

:02:20.:02:22.

last five or six years. What we are saying is that we need transparency

:02:23.:02:27.

and openness. We need to see country by country reporting. The last

:02:28.:02:31.

Labour Government didn't make them pay the taxes? Look, I think we were

:02:32.:02:35.

bringing in measures, we were recognising the problem and that's

:02:36.:02:38.

why also the investigation was started. But you make a fair point,

:02:39.:02:42.

which is that this is not an issue that Governments have been taking

:02:43.:02:47.

seriously. Companies have also been changing, multinational companies,

:02:48.:02:49.

inter-Nat-based multinational companies particularly have now

:02:50.:02:52.

started calling the shots. It's vital the tax system catches up with

:02:53.:02:56.

that internationally as well. OK, let me bring in... If I can make the

:02:57.:03:02.

last point. We have asked the Chancellor why the Government asked

:03:03.:03:06.

the Tory MEPs to vote against the tax avoidance measures last year and

:03:07.:03:10.

we are still waiting for an answer. You don't think Google have anything

:03:11.:03:14.

to apologise for? No, I don't. The entire tax rule book of the UK is

:03:15.:03:19.

ridiculously complicated. I think about 21,000 pages in length now. By

:03:20.:03:25.

way of comparison, the rules of association football which are

:03:26.:03:27.

controversial in their own right, are about 140 pages in length. It's

:03:28.:03:32.

a point that political parties always make in opposition and say,

:03:33.:03:36.

if we get into Government, we'll simplify it? It's the point George

:03:37.:03:39.

Osborne made and he's added to the tax code. When you get a rule book

:03:40.:03:46.

that complicated you get political arguments about what people feel in

:03:47.:03:49.

their bones is a fair level of cash to pay. I thought that exchange was

:03:50.:03:54.

ridiculous. Whatever you think Google's tax corporation liability

:03:55.:03:58.

is, it has no bearing at all on what they pay their executives. You don't

:03:59.:04:03.

pay corporation tax in a ratio to what you are paying your staff. It's

:04:04.:04:08.

an irrelevant question and it's not reasonable under a country that

:04:09.:04:12.

wants to live under the rule of law that any individual or company

:04:13.:04:15.

should pay becomes a matter of a political debate. You need a clear

:04:16.:04:19.

rule book, people working for the tax authorities with a clear

:04:20.:04:29.

calculator and you need to be able to work out what should be paid.

:04:30.:04:41.

When we look at a company like Google, I think we see a problem

:04:42.:04:49.

both with Google and HMRC. We see a problem with HMRC because we are

:04:50.:04:53.

concerned the deal is being done in secret, that we perceive a lot of

:04:54.:04:57.

cosiness to be happening between the multinational companies and the

:04:58.:05:03.

likes of HMRC. At the same time, we see on Google's side, an aggressive

:05:04.:05:07.

approach to this from a company which operates in the UK if they

:05:08.:05:11.

have a fire in their office they'll expect the Fire Brigade to come and

:05:12.:05:16.

put it out, if staff are ill, they'll go to an NHS hospital, if

:05:17.:05:21.

there is a burglarly the police will come. If everybody did what Google

:05:22.:05:26.

did, this country would be in a mess. Is that a message to the MPs

:05:27.:05:31.

who set the rules or the company? The pressure should be on both to

:05:32.:05:35.

behave themselves, they should be held to account. Barney, you left

:05:36.:05:39.

the company ten years ago, what is the issue for you, how do they

:05:40.:05:42.

manage to avoid tax in the way they do and it's legal? I think it's

:05:43.:05:47.

absolutely incredible, you know, I know a lot of businesses and Google

:05:48.:05:50.

is one of the only businesses I know that spends most of its time trying

:05:51.:05:54.

to belittle the contribution of its British MPs. That quickly came to my

:05:55.:05:59.

attention because I thought, why are they saying things like, we don't

:06:00.:06:03.

sell in the UK, there are no sales staff, and obviously I then realised

:06:04.:06:07.

it's to do with the tax position and how much tax people might perceive

:06:08.:06:12.

they owe. It's like most Google employees. I would like to see more

:06:13.:06:18.

clarity. I would like to see HMRC really spell out which rules they

:06:19.:06:23.

are applying to Google and why is it a company that has 4,000 staff in

:06:24.:06:29.

the UK that's had the staff build some of the major products is such

:06:30.:06:34.

little account to Google that they pay virtually no tax on it. That's a

:06:35.:06:40.

really important point. There's been a debate about whether or not Google

:06:41.:06:44.

has a permanent base in the UK, what economic activity is done here.

:06:45.:06:47.

There is been quite an issue, not just about the law but

:06:48.:06:51.

interpretation of the law. That is why we have been calling. We had our

:06:52.:06:54.

debate in Parliament that Labour led. For the Chancellor to come

:06:55.:06:58.

clean, how much has he been involved, has he asked questions

:06:59.:07:02.

about this as well. He's been at the Super Bowl more than he's been in

:07:03.:07:05.

Parliament talking about this issue over the last ten days so the

:07:06.:07:09.

British people will be wanting answers, we believe it needs much

:07:10.:07:12.

more transparency and it's a big issue of fairness. Doesn't the fact

:07:13.:07:17.

that Google has paid back taxes for the last ten years show something

:07:18.:07:22.

wasn't right? Clearly. They have paid ?130 million in back taxes

:07:23.:07:26.

correct but the problem is that, especially over corporation tax, you

:07:27.:07:30.

get into an area where essentially contestable. How much of Google's

:07:31.:07:34.

work is the number of Brit going to Google, how much is it the brilliant

:07:35.:07:40.

algorithm designed in America, how much is it the brilliant campaign

:07:41.:07:44.

designed somewhere else and we are going to find when companies operate

:07:45.:07:48.

across borders, it will be a matter of opinion where their profits come

:07:49.:07:52.

from. When tax becomes a matter of opinion, you get into this mess an

:07:53.:07:56.

it will apply to lots more companies than Google in the future. Thank you

:07:57.:07:58.

very much all of you. Before 11 we'll bring

:07:59.:08:06.

you more on that story about Liverpool Football Club

:08:07.:08:09.

scrapping plans to put up ticket Kevin Wilson was found guilty of

:08:10.:08:42.

child destruction. It's the crime of killing an unborn but viable foetus

:08:43.:08:46.

and it carries a maximum life sentence in prison. Convictions in

:08:47.:08:50.

England and Wales are rare with around a dozen cases in the last

:08:51.:08:55.

decade. We can talk now to 27-year-old Lauren Oliver, she was

:08:56.:08:59.

stabbed five times in the stomach by her ex-boyfriend when she was seven

:09:00.:09:04.

months pregnant I think weren't you Lauren? Thank you very much for

:09:05.:09:08.

coming on the programme and for talking about this really difficult

:09:09.:09:12.

issue. I do appreciate your time. When you found out you were

:09:13.:09:17.

pregnant, your relationship with your ex-boyfriend was already over.

:09:18.:09:22.

And he told you that you should have an abortion didn't he? Yes, he told

:09:23.:09:30.

me I had to get rid of her, it wasn't negotiable. How did you

:09:31.:09:35.

react? I told him I wouldn't do it. You were absolutely determined? Yes.

:09:36.:09:39.

It was after that that he took a decision to assault you. What

:09:40.:09:45.

happened? On the 11th June, 2014, I arrived back home after taking my

:09:46.:09:49.

other daughter to school and as I got to my door, I noticed he was

:09:50.:09:54.

stood behind me. I felt a blow to my stomach. I thought I'd been punched

:09:55.:10:00.

but it turns out I'd been stabbed. I fell into my door and he kicked my

:10:01.:10:05.

on to my back and stabbed me another four times. It was as blatant and

:10:06.:10:10.

brazen as that? Yes. And you are clear that's because he didn't want

:10:11.:10:14.

you to have this child? Yes, he were adamant I had to get rid of her.

:10:15.:10:18.

When you arrived at the hospital I think I'm right in saying that they

:10:19.:10:21.

couldn't detect a heartbeat. What happened after that? They moved it

:10:22.:10:26.

around for a bit and they managed to pick one up but she was in the

:10:27.:10:29.

breach position, on the opposite side. Did you think they are going

:10:30.:10:33.

to be able to save my daughter at that point? What were you thinking?

:10:34.:10:38.

I'd kind of already convinced myself that she'd died, so to hear that

:10:39.:10:43.

they'd picked a heartbeat up, it were obviously the best feeling. You

:10:44.:10:48.

gave birth to a gorgeous baby girl, she was premature? Yes. In terms of

:10:49.:10:54.

the treatment after that, what were the medical tofessionals able to do?

:10:55.:11:01.

-- medical professionals able to do? She was in the NCU because she

:11:02.:11:06.

couldn't breathe but they were really good. Nicholas is serving at

:11:07.:11:12.

least ten years, could be longer, for attempted child destruction and

:11:13.:11:15.

assault. How did you react to that sentence? He initially got sentenced

:11:16.:11:22.

to 29 years and he got told they'd run concurrent which he had to serve

:11:23.:11:28.

19. He's been told he can apply for parole after ten, so it seems to get

:11:29.:11:33.

less and less. How do you respond to the fact that he can apply for

:11:34.:11:37.

parole after ten years after what he tried to do to you? I'm not happy

:11:38.:11:41.

that he'll be out after ten years because she'll only be ten, she'll

:11:42.:11:45.

only be a child herself but there's nothing I can do about it.

:11:46.:11:49.

You must have thought about this. Will you talk to your daughter about

:11:50.:11:53.

what happened? I will when she gets older, I'm going to have to try to

:11:54.:11:57.

explain it to her but I've kept all the articles from the newspaper and

:11:58.:12:00.

magazines soshe can have a read through them herself to try and

:12:01.:12:03.

understand what happened. And why is it important for you to

:12:04.:12:09.

reveal that to her? She's going to find out and I don't want her to

:12:10.:12:13.

hear it from other people if I haven't told her myself. I would

:12:14.:12:17.

rather be the one to let her know what happened. How old is she now?

:12:18.:12:25.

20 months. What's she like? A madam. She's good though. OK. Well, thank

:12:26.:12:29.

you very much. Thank you. Thank you for talking to us and coming on the

:12:30.:12:34.

programme, we really appreciate it. Thank you. Still to come before 11:

:12:35.:12:40.

That U-turn by look Football Club scrapping plans to put up ticket

:12:41.:12:45.

prices following pressure from fans, it doesn't happen very often but

:12:46.:12:49.

when it does it's a good feeling for football supporters. We'll bring you

:12:50.:12:54.

reaction from the fans and a former FA executive. And Baroness Williams,

:12:55.:12:59.

one of the first MPs to sit in Cabinet, retires, one of the first

:13:00.:13:03.

female MPs I should say. We'll talk to her live about her five decades

:13:04.:13:05.

of political life. The main news so far this morning:

:13:06.:13:17.

The Government's chief negotiator in the junior doctor dispute has told

:13:18.:13:20.

England's Health Secretary there is no realistic prospect of a deal. He

:13:21.:13:24.

said the Government must now do whatever it thinks necessary to end

:13:25.:13:28.

the deadlock after the body representing doctors turned down

:13:29.:13:31.

what's been described as a final offer from the Government.

:13:32.:13:36.

The Metropolitan Police commissioner says detectives should change their

:13:37.:13:40.

approach to sexual abuse and rape claims. Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has

:13:41.:13:48.

ordered a review into this. He says officers shouldn't automatically

:13:49.:13:52.

believe the alleged victim. Over 40% of parents whose children have

:13:53.:13:56.

cancer feel their concerns about their child's health were ignored

:13:57.:14:01.

initially by GPs. That is according to the charity Clic Sergeant, which

:14:02.:14:06.

is calling on the Government to provide better training for

:14:07.:14:08.

professionals who deal with children with cancer. A large fire has broken

:14:09.:14:13.

out at Tata Steel plant in Port Talbot. It's believed to have

:14:14.:14:16.

started in an oven. It's now been contained. Emergency services are at

:14:17.:14:20.

the scene but there are no reports of any casualties. Bosses of Google

:14:21.:14:24.

and senior tax office officials are facing questions from MPs right now

:14:25.:14:28.

over the controversial deal under which Google agreed to pay ?130

:14:29.:14:32.

million to the Government in back taxes.

:14:33.:14:36.

Those are the headlines. Here is all the sport now with Hugh.

:14:37.:14:46.

Only 16,000 Valencia fans attended the 55,000 capacity stadium as Gary

:14:47.:14:50.

Neville's side earned themselves at least a shred of respect with a 1-1

:14:51.:14:54.

cup draw against Barcelona having lost the first leg 7-0. Closer to

:14:55.:14:58.

home, League One side Peterborough came close to an FA Cup shock but

:14:59.:15:03.

were ultimately beaten on penalties as the Premier League's West Brom

:15:04.:15:04.

went through to the fifth round. Athletics' world governing body has

:15:05.:15:08.

lost another commercial partner. This time food and drink giant

:15:09.:15:10.

Nestle have ended their association with the IAAF because of

:15:11.:15:12.

the 'negative publicity' around And Olympic rowing gold medallist

:15:13.:15:14.

Anna Watkins has given up hope of defending her title

:15:15.:15:24.

in Rio later this year, after her return from a three-year

:15:25.:15:26.

break in which she had two children. And that's all for now,

:15:27.:15:31.

but I will be back with more sport Let's go back to Norman Smith more

:15:32.:15:42.

details on the fact that a new contract will be imposed on junior

:15:43.:15:45.

doctors. I guess the key question is, what do

:15:46.:15:51.

the BMA do now, the British Medical Association, how do they respond?

:15:52.:15:55.

They said they will wait and hear exactly what Jeremy Hunt has to say

:15:56.:15:59.

before they come out with a formal response, but talking to people here

:16:00.:16:02.

at Westminster who have conversations with the BMA, they

:16:03.:16:06.

fully expect them to continue with the campaign of industrial action.

:16:07.:16:12.

That raises the question of more operations being shelved and, in the

:16:13.:16:15.

background, the nuclear option, because you remember a fortnight or

:16:16.:16:21.

so ago they cancelled the threat of an all out strike, that is to say

:16:22.:16:25.

not providing any emergency cover at all. That really is the nuclear

:16:26.:16:30.

option, and I guess there will be a lot of tossing and turning within

:16:31.:16:35.

the BMA as to whether they put that back on the table, because that

:16:36.:16:39.

really is a massive, massive step for them to decide, actually, we

:16:40.:16:41.

will withdraw all cover. But certainly Labour and

:16:42.:17:02.

other people I have spoken to take the view that the BMA are not going

:17:03.:17:05.

to back down, they will not just pack up their tent and accept what

:17:06.:17:08.

Jeremy Hunt has done, which means we have the prospect of rolling

:17:09.:17:10.

industrial action in the health service, which I imagine nobody, not

:17:11.:17:12.

patients, not doctors, not politicians, once, but it could be

:17:13.:17:14.

what we now face. Thank you, Norman. More from Norman

:17:15.:17:15.

should there be anything to report. Before 11am we will talk to

:17:16.:17:21.

Liverpool football fans who are really happy that the club has

:17:22.:17:24.

scrapped plans for a big rise in ticket prices after a walk-out last

:17:25.:17:30.

week. Completely changed their minds, that doesn't happen often, we

:17:31.:17:32.

will talk about that before 11am. But first, one of Britain's most

:17:33.:17:35.

colourful politicians is retiring She's Baroness Shirley Williams,

:17:36.:17:38.

she's spent 50 years in British politics and was one of the first

:17:39.:17:42.

female MPs to sit in Cabinet. Now let's talk to

:17:43.:18:52.

Baroness Shirley Williams Bah only 85, White are you

:18:53.:19:03.

retiring?! There are lots of other things I would like to do X back row

:19:04.:19:08.

I want to talk to you about the fact that it looks like this contract

:19:09.:19:11.

will be imposed on junior doctors by Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary.

:19:12.:19:15.

The NHS was your last speech in Parliament, what do you think junior

:19:16.:19:20.

doctors should do now, continue with industrial action, withdraw

:19:21.:19:23.

emergency cover? A nuclear option could blow up the thing that is a

:19:24.:19:30.

threat to it, and there is a danger the NHS might be broken by this. It

:19:31.:19:34.

means two things, on one side the junior doctors have got to be clear

:19:35.:19:38.

about what is their minimum requirement, and let it be known to

:19:39.:19:43.

the public, not just a small groups of conciliators and so forth.

:19:44.:19:47.

Secondly, I think the select Committee in Parliament, which is a

:19:48.:19:50.

joint committee of different parties, has got to think carefully

:19:51.:19:54.

about putting forward a proposal that would lift some of the endless

:19:55.:19:59.

financial pressure on the NHS, because the NHS runs at the lower

:20:00.:20:04.

share of national income than virtually any other country in the

:20:05.:20:08.

world, it is remarkable it has held together. Even though health

:20:09.:20:12.

spending is protected? That just means they don't add more to it. We

:20:13.:20:18.

are pushing people all the time for more productivity, so what we need

:20:19.:20:22.

to do is have more party agreement to some solid additional financing

:20:23.:20:27.

for the NHS, and if it means another 1p on income tax, so be it, we have

:20:28.:20:31.

to get out of the mess we are in now. But you think this stalemate

:20:32.:20:35.

between the Health Secretary and junior doctors could break the NHS?

:20:36.:20:41.

It could break the NHS. According to the BMA, more than half of the young

:20:42.:20:45.

doctors being trained say they want to work abroad. That means we are

:20:46.:20:50.

spending something like ?200,000 on training them, then they go

:20:51.:20:53.

someplace else. It doesn't be exempt. We have got to have a

:20:54.:20:57.

different approach, and what that means is solid expectation that the

:20:58.:21:02.

NHS can look to additional money, not huge amounts, maybe 1%

:21:03.:21:18.

or 2% of taxation, but we needed to give doctors the certainty that they

:21:19.:21:22.

have a career within the NHS. Many think they haven't and many are

:21:23.:21:25.

talking about giving away. Let me read this from the NHS Chief

:21:26.:21:27.

Executive, he has said: Drawn-out industrial action would cause

:21:28.:21:29.

disruption to patients relying on NHS care, and the NHS is right to

:21:30.:21:31.

say a contract should now be implemented for junior doctors.

:21:32.:21:34.

More reaction will keep coming in, I have got so many questions about

:21:35.:21:37.

your career and personal life. When you became an MP it took four goes,

:21:38.:21:45.

ten years? Three. Three goes. But that was not unusual, it was hard to

:21:46.:21:52.

become a female MP. You said that was because you were female and

:21:53.:21:57.

Catholic, is it any easier now? It is, we were regarded them as people

:21:58.:22:01.

who should be patronised, I remember being patronised by all sorts of

:22:02.:22:05.

aldermen in the House of Commons. Silly things, like the toilets were

:22:06.:22:12.

called members only, but when you opened the door they were used

:22:13.:22:17.

rhinos, not female toilets, we were expected not to be there. There were

:22:18.:22:21.

a few exceptional females, Margaret Thatcher and so on, even if I did

:22:22.:22:25.

not agree with her policies, who made people change their opinion on

:22:26.:22:28.

what female MPs could do, but it was a long struggle and it is

:22:29.:22:33.

continuing. You said you were patronised, but for female MPs now

:22:34.:22:37.

the level of abuse they receive from members of the public on social

:22:38.:22:41.

media, whatever, you would not have had that. They get that now on a

:22:42.:22:46.

daily basis. That is social media, and it means the more extraordinary

:22:47.:22:53.

members of the public are using female MPs as a target of their ire.

:22:54.:23:02.

They directed at the MPs as a sort of symbol. I'm very brightened up

:23:03.:23:06.

the social media, I think it is high time that the social media insisted

:23:07.:23:10.

upon people being not anonymous, even if they don't reveal the names,

:23:11.:23:14.

it is important that the servers actually have those names, because

:23:15.:23:20.

at the moment what we are all doing is giving franchise to some of the

:23:21.:23:25.

most horrible, cruel members of society, without them even having to

:23:26.:23:29.

be responsible for what they say. We do it with newspapers, you don't get

:23:30.:23:33.

a letter to the editor of a newspaper unless you supply your

:23:34.:23:36.

name and address. Isn't it about time we did it with social media?

:23:37.:23:42.

Bay in many cases behave in the most irresponsible way and drive many

:23:43.:23:44.

people close to suicide with horror at what is said about them. Do you

:23:45.:23:50.

think that people, whether it is voters all the media, still

:23:51.:23:54.

pigeonhole female politicians when it comes to certain areas of

:23:55.:23:58.

expertise? Yes, they do a bit. I have spent a lot of my life dealing

:23:59.:24:03.

with the issue of nuclear proliferation and I'm on a board in

:24:04.:24:09.

America, I have been on it for ten years, discussing ways in which, for

:24:10.:24:12.

example, if you take the Iranian peace deal, you can actually start

:24:13.:24:17.

pushing people away from developing nuclear weapons and beginning to

:24:18.:24:19.

move towards a more peaceful outcome. It is wonderful that

:24:20.:24:24.

happened, it is the best thing that has happened all year. Having said

:24:25.:24:27.

that, women are not normally expected to be interested in things

:24:28.:24:31.

like nuclear proliferation, but if they want their kids and

:24:32.:24:34.

grandchildren to live, they had better address the issue. People

:24:35.:24:40.

need to see that, but women are often seem to be interested in a

:24:41.:24:44.

small number of women subjects. Can I read the messages from people who

:24:45.:24:48.

are watching this morning? This tweet, you say you don't like social

:24:49.:24:51.

media but you may like these comments! One says, Baroness

:24:52.:24:55.

Williams, thank you for the doors you have opened for the women coming

:24:56.:24:59.

behind you and for your hard work. Very nice! One says, though, Shirley

:25:00.:25:08.

Williams! Not go as in retire, but as in, good for you! Another says,

:25:09.:25:14.

Baroness Williams is an inspiring figure, you do not need to be a Lib

:25:15.:25:19.

Dem to have regard for her. Very sweet of him but we would like to be

:25:20.:25:24.

a Lib Dem as well! But there are fewer and fewer of you! But we have

:25:25.:25:30.

got some more new members. As have Labour. Can I ask you what

:25:31.:25:39.

got some more new members. you would do right now if you were a

:25:40.:25:42.

member of the Labour Party? Would you leave? Let me jump back for a

:25:43.:25:49.

minute, I would begin by taking those babies and youngsters who are

:25:50.:25:54.

abandoned, we should take at least 3000 or four dozen of them because

:25:55.:25:57.

we have a good structure of child care and child concern in this

:25:58.:26:03.

country -- 4000 of them. We are in a good position to help these

:26:04.:26:05.

youngsters who would otherwise be thrown away. I was asking a slightly

:26:06.:26:10.

different question, but actually let's talk about what you did in the

:26:11.:26:15.

70s, you'll support for Ugandan refugees coming to Britain and

:26:16.:26:20.

whether you see some parallels with the Syrian refugee crisis? We agreed

:26:21.:26:26.

to take the people that had opted to live in England, they were being

:26:27.:26:29.

threatened among other things with death and complete removal

:26:30.:26:32.

threatened among other things with property by India mean, the

:26:33.:26:39.

president of Uganda. With promised they would have a vote in Britain if

:26:40.:26:44.

they needed it, and I have to say that we fought for that, I promised

:26:45.:26:47.

I would resign from the Labour Government if we didn't get it. We

:26:48.:26:52.

then had the courageous support of a brave Conservative, who came out and

:26:53.:26:56.

said, we made this promise, we have got to keep it. It was amid screams

:26:57.:27:01.

of anger from his own members and activists but he stuck by the

:27:02.:27:05.

promise that we made. And the public, actually. And the public. We

:27:06.:27:11.

then set up a brief settlement body, found them housing and education.

:27:12.:27:16.

Why don't we do it this time? We did it then and it was one of the most

:27:17.:27:23.

successful immigration into it then and it was one of the most

:27:24.:27:27.

we have ever seen. They have contributed in particular to

:27:28.:27:30.

business and entrepreneurship. There were about 50 4000, 50 8000? You are

:27:31.:27:38.

right. Britain, over five years, will take 20,000 Syrian... Over five

:27:39.:27:45.

years, that was in one year. Is 20,000 over five years not enough?

:27:46.:27:50.

Clearly not enough, something like twice that each year, and I will get

:27:51.:27:54.

in trouble for it but I think Syrian refugees are likely to be a useful

:27:55.:27:59.

group in society, as long as we keep the families. That was understood by

:28:00.:28:03.

the Pope and it is crucial. With a family, you won't get young men

:28:04.:28:08.

pushing off to fight Syria, on their own anything that happened. They

:28:09.:28:12.

could be a very serious group in terms of upsetting society. Why do

:28:13.:28:16.

you say you will get in trouble for saying that? There will be people in

:28:17.:28:22.

Ukip and so on saying I am flooding the country with Syrians, which is

:28:23.:28:26.

silly. Most of them want to go home when they can. But what is happening

:28:27.:28:30.

now, I have to say this one thing, what is happening now is because of

:28:31.:28:34.

the colossal Russian flying activities, Russia is beating the

:28:35.:28:37.

hell out of places like Aleppo at the moment, including lots of

:28:38.:28:42.

civilians, and we are watching it happen and doing nothing much about

:28:43.:28:45.

it. Somebody has got to stop that happening otherwise you will see

:28:46.:28:49.

more and more refugees coming out of Syria, beginning to disturb and

:28:50.:28:52.

upset the whole of Europe as well, and it has got to be something we

:28:53.:28:56.

address, and we have to address it seriously. Back to the question I

:28:57.:28:59.

thought I was asking a few moments ago bug sorry! No, it is fine! You

:29:00.:29:06.

thought it was right when the Labour Party split and joined the SDLP,

:29:07.:29:13.

what would you do if you were a member of the Labour Party today? I

:29:14.:29:18.

think there will be a crisis for Jeremy Corbyn from the International

:29:19.:29:21.

questions of today and whether they face that or not. You mean looking

:29:22.:29:28.

at the EU, Nato? Particularly Nato, I think it is crucial, and I think

:29:29.:29:35.

he seems unwilling to accept that. But if you don't have a country luck

:29:36.:29:39.

Britain, a reasonably stable democracy, supporting some of the

:29:40.:29:43.

work that Nato does, especially given the extreme rise in aggression

:29:44.:29:47.

from Russia at the present time, you really are asking for trouble, and

:29:48.:29:50.

that is the kind of thing which I think Jeremy Corbyn, up to now, has

:29:51.:29:55.

not had to face but he will have to face it soon. If he does not, what

:29:56.:30:00.

do you feel will happen? I think some people will leave the Labour

:30:01.:30:03.

Party, some will come to us, some probably to the Conservatives, but

:30:04.:30:07.

it will be fragmented, so it is a really serious problem. He's a

:30:08.:30:11.

decent man, much more like Michael foot than he is like one of the

:30:12.:30:18.

earlier trots and so forth, but what he has coming in with him to the

:30:19.:30:21.

Labour Party, and I don't think he has asked them to come, are some

:30:22.:30:26.

extreme left-wing ideologues and they are riding piggyback on him and

:30:27.:30:29.

I think it will be a problem for him to get rid of them. Can I ask some

:30:30.:30:34.

personal questions, if I may? You talked about something that happened

:30:35.:30:37.

to you when you were 13 and when I heard it I was taken aback. You and

:30:38.:30:42.

your friend coming back from America after the Second World War on a

:30:43.:30:45.

boat, evacuated for three years, and you had to fight off a group of

:30:46.:30:48.

sailors who effectively burst into your cabin As they were attempting

:30:49.:30:54.

to a salt you? They were, they came in with the excuse that they had a

:30:55.:30:58.

curable seasickness, because we had gone through cyclones, huge storms.

:30:59.:31:04.

About six of them came in, the only people in the cabin were my best

:31:05.:31:07.

friend, a young woman called Rosemary, and me, we were 13. We

:31:08.:31:12.

fought them off, mostly scratching and jabbing their eyes and so on.

:31:13.:31:16.

Managed to get out the door, ran down the corridor, this was a

:31:17.:31:20.

Portuguese ship, by the way, and piled into a gents, and the funny

:31:21.:31:26.

thing was those sailors could not imagine any decent woman would go

:31:27.:31:29.

into a gents for safety so we locked ourselves in one of the stalls and

:31:30.:31:33.

stayed there while they funded by, then spent the rest of the voyage,

:31:34.:31:37.

another four days, believe it or not, in a lifeboat on top, covered

:31:38.:31:42.

with sea water, and just stayed under a tarpaulin and stayed there

:31:43.:31:47.

for the next three days and nights. Goodness me!

:31:48.:31:52.

Did that have a lasting effect on you, or is that 234 a long life just

:31:53.:31:58.

another thing that happened to you? More or less another thing that

:31:59.:32:01.

happened. It was the war. I got locked up for three months in a

:32:02.:32:05.

Portuguese hotel detained because we couldn't get to Britain so we got

:32:06.:32:08.

stuck in Portugal. You got very independent in the war, I was only

:32:09.:32:13.

13 but you learnt to look after yourself and to fight for yourself.

:32:14.:32:17.

Often with other children the same age. So it was a great growing up

:32:18.:32:23.

experience and it didn't leave me with desperate psychological

:32:24.:32:27.

problems. Fair enough. I still like men. OK. I want to ask you about a

:32:28.:32:33.

man you like very much, you married him, he left you sadly for another

:32:34.:32:37.

woman in 1970, you've talked about it before. Again it shows your

:32:38.:32:41.

resilience I think. What did you do to get through that period? Two

:32:42.:32:47.

things really; he was a wonderful, clever brilliant man. The first

:32:48.:32:51.

thing you have to do is to say what did I contribute to this. Why do you

:32:52.:32:55.

have toe say that? Because you mustn't just easily blame the other

:32:56.:33:00.

person. There are always reasons and usually both contribute to it. What

:33:01.:33:04.

I felt was that he was so fed up with people coming up to him saying

:33:05.:33:08.

this is Mr Shirley Williams I presume, he was so fed up as being

:33:09.:33:14.

treatmented as baggage. People are very cruel and much crueller than

:33:15.:33:17.

they are now outside the social media, they were very cruel to you

:33:18.:33:21.

directly. I think he found it, as young aspiring very clever man,

:33:22.:33:25.

quite hard to be treated as an add-on to me. So I didn't blame him

:33:26.:33:30.

for that, I think it's the price of politics, politics has a very high

:33:31.:33:34.

price, particularly for women and it's quite difficult to manage a

:33:35.:33:39.

good marriage and make it work. It's happening more and more I'm pleased

:33:40.:33:43.

to say and people are beginning to accept women at work but don't

:33:44.:33:46.

forget this is 40 years ago and people didn't accept that. You did

:33:47.:33:50.

two things, one was to look at yourself? The other was to work like

:33:51.:33:56.

hell. Work is a great healer in many ways and it compels you to work with

:33:57.:34:01.

other people, men and women alike. I think the culmination of both

:34:02.:34:05.

thinking about myself, what had I got wrong and also thinking about

:34:06.:34:08.

what could I get right which was essentially at that time moving into

:34:09.:34:12.

the professional area to become better at it, these were the two

:34:13.:34:20.

things that made it possible. Then years later, I married into the

:34:21.:34:25.

second marriage which was happy as you could ever make it. You oversaw

:34:26.:34:29.

the move from grammar schools to comprehensive systems. Correct. You

:34:30.:34:34.

faced a lot of the criticism? Yes. In terms of the political

:34:35.:34:37.

significance of your career, where does that rank? Pretty high. The

:34:38.:34:43.

other one would be the nuclear proliferation. I was the only

:34:44.:34:46.

British person on that committee. Going to what you asked me, people

:34:47.:34:53.

forgot two things, possibly only about 12% of youngsters only ever

:34:54.:34:57.

got to grammar school, there was another 88% that didn't go anywhere.

:34:58.:35:03.

Secondary schools, you couldn't take A-levels, you couldn't have a sixth

:35:04.:35:08.

form, you had no prospect of going on to further education which meant

:35:09.:35:12.

that we threw a great deal of talent away. One of the great things for me

:35:13.:35:16.

about the comprehensive school is that it did open the doors to

:35:17.:35:20.

everybody. You got very few transfers from secondary modern to

:35:21.:35:25.

grammar, 1% or 1.5% a year and I got the feeling and had it time and

:35:26.:35:31.

again now that people come up to me saying thanks I'm now the director

:35:32.:35:35.

of whatever it may be or I now work in a small business I'm so grateful

:35:36.:35:39.

that I went to a comprehensive school and was able to take A-levels

:35:40.:35:47.

and O-levels. You put a ceiling on the age of about 13 and 14 and they

:35:48.:35:52.

couldn't climb out of that. It was completely wrong for a country like

:35:53.:35:55.

Britain that needed more and more skilled people. The one weakness

:35:56.:36:00.

that is still there is that we don't treat vocational education seriously

:36:01.:36:04.

and we need far more people who're good at skills and capable of

:36:05.:36:07.

and we need far more people who're their hands to produce outcomes, new

:36:08.:36:10.

products, all the rest of it. I think that's all changed for the

:36:11.:36:14.

better so I have no feeling to apologise on that one at all. No

:36:15.:36:19.

regrets at all about anything? Oh no, no, no, no, just on

:36:20.:36:24.

comprehensive schools. I regret some other things, I suppose some of the

:36:25.:36:29.

main ones are to do with, well to be quite blunt I'm a strong European, I

:36:30.:36:32.

think the future lies with bringing people together to deal with really

:36:33.:36:37.

difficult issues and I think looking back, that we didn't ever take a

:36:38.:36:45.

sufficiently initiative lead in Europe. The result is today that

:36:46.:36:49.

Britain sits half on the outside and half on the inside and therefore

:36:50.:36:54.

reduces the influence and ways in which I think is unnecessary. How do

:36:55.:36:57.

you think which I think is unnecessary. How do

:36:58.:37:02.

you lived through the first one? The first one got through. I don't know,

:37:03.:37:05.

I think it will be close. A couple more comments from viewers who've

:37:06.:37:10.

texted or e-mailed. Emily says, I barely knew anything about Shirley

:37:11.:37:12.

Williams before watching her on your programme this morning but my

:37:13.:37:15.

goodness what a wonderful woman. Thank you very much. And this from a

:37:16.:37:20.

texter who doesn't leave their name, Shirley Williams is the role model

:37:21.:37:27.

everyone should follow, especially politicians, she's honest, doesn't

:37:28.:37:32.

divert from questions and is a wonderful lady who I admire

:37:33.:37:34.

immensely. Thank you very much to everyone. Is it true you have had 12

:37:35.:37:39.

marriage proposals in your life? Yes, about ten of them when I was

:37:40.:37:45.

about20. I thought you were saying #20rks not

:37:46.:37:49.

12! There aren't that many recent ones, I have to say, the charming

:37:50.:37:55.

older man still has to come along! Thank you so much and good luck with

:37:56.:37:59.

your retirement. Pleasure. Thank you very much, nice to see you.

:38:00.:38:02.

Liverpool football club has scrapped plans to put up the price

:38:03.:38:05.

of its most expensive ticket to ?77 and apologised to fans

:38:06.:38:08.

Thousands of supporters walked out in the 77th minute of the club's

:38:09.:38:14.

match against Sunderland last weekend in protest

:38:15.:38:16.

In an open letter explaining the decision, the club's owners

:38:17.:38:23.

Fenway Sports Group said 'message received'.

:38:24.:38:32.

John Gibbons broadcast the podcast and he's in our Merseyside studio.

:38:33.:38:41.

We are joined by a fan and also in the studio the former Chief

:38:42.:38:45.

Executive of the FA, Mark Palios, also chairman and owner of Tranmere.

:38:46.:38:49.

Is that right? Right?! I didn't know that actually. How are you? Good,

:38:50.:38:53.

thank you. Let's talk to our guests in Radio

:38:54.:38:57.

Merseyside first of all. Well, what an amazing turn around, well done!

:38:58.:39:01.

Thank you very much. Well done to all the Liverpool fans, I mean it's

:39:02.:39:05.

a remarkable turn around as you say, quite unprecedented for it to happen

:39:06.:39:08.

and for it to happen so quickly. I expected them to try to buy some

:39:09.:39:12.

time to go away and hope it would blow over and announce a bit of a

:39:13.:39:16.

comedown. What they have done so quickly and to apologise to fans as

:39:17.:39:20.

well and to recognise that they didn't really understand the feeling

:39:21.:39:25.

in Liverpool, it's huge and huge going forward for Liverpool fans to

:39:26.:39:27.

know that they have a stronger voice going forward, also for football

:39:28.:39:30.

fans around the country who can hopefully see they don't have to

:39:31.:39:34.

just sit there and accept the price increases. We all have the power to

:39:35.:39:39.

do something to change it. But it happened so quickly. That's

:39:40.:39:44.

what's taken me aback, to be honest? It did happen quickly. That showed

:39:45.:39:47.

they weren't expecting what happened on Saturday. I'm sure they'd heard

:39:48.:39:53.

there would be a walkout, they were probably expecting 1,000, 2,000

:39:54.:39:58.

people to join in, the fact it was 10,000 to 15,000, depending on the

:39:59.:40:02.

estimates yew go on, I think that really, really surprised them so I'm

:40:03.:40:06.

sure they were working very, very quickly on Saturday night to try to

:40:07.:40:09.

re-Seoul it and probably listening to people within the club who maybe

:40:10.:40:12.

warned them that something like this might happen. Mark Palios, as

:40:13.:40:16.

chairman of Tranmere Rovers, I don't know that you are as wealthy as the

:40:17.:40:21.

Fennelway Sports Group, I'm guessing not, but I might be wrong -- Fenway.

:40:22.:40:27.

This feels unprecedented, foreign owners listening to their fans? Yes.

:40:28.:40:39.

In terms of perspective, if our players walked out, it would be

:40:40.:40:42.

after 17 minutes. It's a different animal. From my days of watching the

:40:43.:40:46.

game, I think you have always felt the fans have had less of a voice in

:40:47.:40:50.

the game than they should have had and people took a ride on the fact

:40:51.:40:55.

that they were fans, as a consequence they have been taken for

:40:56.:40:59.

granted. It's great the owners of Liverpool have listened to their

:41:00.:41:01.

fans, but the thing that's changed here is I think you have got to a

:41:02.:41:06.

point, a tipping point, the figures are so large now. You mean what they

:41:07.:41:11.

are going to earn from the next deal, over ?8 billion for the

:41:12.:41:15.

Premier League? Yes, so if you can bottom the Premier League, the

:41:16.:41:19.

television money alone is about ?100 million and if you have got a gate

:41:20.:41:24.

of about 30,000 and took ?5 off your season ticket prices, you would

:41:25.:41:28.

probably lose something like ?5.7 million. I can bet you, you could

:41:29.:41:32.

probably go into all of the clubs and almost take that out of the cost

:41:33.:41:36.

base which they waste, so you're at the point now where it really stands

:41:37.:41:39.

out and there is really no argument to not look after the fans. James,

:41:40.:41:44.

how do you react? It's such an amazing triumph, I'm just so pleased

:41:45.:41:52.

for you, but it kind of, they have said sorry, they have frozen the

:41:53.:41:56.

ticket prices for a few years, it's trebles all around isn't it? Yes,

:41:57.:42:01.

it's certainly welcome news. We are incredibly pleased that the club

:42:02.:42:04.

have realised they have made a mistake. We sat in meetings. I had

:42:05.:42:09.

the pleasure or displeasure in sitting in 13 months of Liverpool

:42:10.:42:12.

telling them they shouldn't be making more from tickets, telling

:42:13.:42:15.

them they should be making less and they had a perfect opportunity for

:42:16.:42:19.

it and I suppose there would be some disappointment that they didn't

:42:20.:42:23.

listen us to in the first place. Give us some insight then, when you

:42:24.:42:28.

say that in the meetings, how did they respond? They didn't believe us

:42:29.:42:31.

is the reality. The owners came in, half way through the discussions,

:42:32.:42:35.

they didn't meet with us, but they put a revenue target in that would

:42:36.:42:39.

have meant the club would have made ?2 million more from tickets and we

:42:40.:42:43.

said in the current climate that wouldn't be acceptable to supporters

:42:44.:42:47.

and in a way it was almost who blinks first and the club thought

:42:48.:42:54.

they had a proposal that knew it would disappoint supporters.

:42:55.:42:58.

Saturday, as Jon mentioned, it was unprecedented to see the club change

:42:59.:43:03.

their mind four days later is equally unprecedented and apology is

:43:04.:43:07.

probably just that bit on top that supporters weren't expecting but do

:43:08.:43:09.

welcome. This shouldn't have happened in the first place, but the

:43:10.:43:12.

club needs to learn from this and move forward and I think it's a

:43:13.:43:17.

message to Liverpool and to clubs around the country that supporters

:43:18.:43:20.

are important to this product you like to sell on television, they are

:43:21.:43:24.

important in the ground, the atmosphere on 77 minutes, you know,

:43:25.:43:28.

disappeared out the ground when everybody walked out and it's

:43:29.:43:31.

important they realise that listening to supporters properly and

:43:32.:43:34.

understanding their concerns is beneficial to both them and us. Very

:43:35.:43:38.

briefly Mark Palios, do you think other owners will listen to their

:43:39.:43:41.

own fans having looked at what Liverpool have done? I think it's a

:43:42.:43:45.

massive wake-up call for people and it will be interesting to see what

:43:46.:43:50.

the Premier League do in response. There are no-brainers like

:43:51.:43:53.

supporting away fans and things like that which help create the

:43:54.:43:57.

atmosphere in the ground. Thank you all very much.

:43:58.:44:01.

Thank you for your company today, and for all your messages

:44:02.:44:02.

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