18/02/2016 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria.

Should it become harder to convict someone of murder

if they were involved in the crime, perhaps by encouraging friends

to kill, but didn't actually harm the victim themselves?

We're talking about the controversial joint enterprise

law which allows murderers to be convicted as a group.

The Supreme Court is due to rule this morning

We have been speaking to one woman who was locked up under the rules.

It's locking too many innocent people up, hundreds of people locked

up under this law, which is so unfair if they had no

The person who actually committed the murder should be

It's not fair bringing other people down.

With models still under pressure to be unhealthily thin,

should the UK fashion industry be forced to ban under 18s

We have a special report and hear from women about what it's

like to be constantly told to lose weight.

So I went away and I just dieted really heavily.

And I went back to seeing them about four months later,

and they said, "You're doing good, you're losing weight.

We just want you to get down to the bone..."

After the tragic death of two-year-old Faye Burdett

from Meninigitis, thousands sign an online petition

calling for vaccines to be given to all children,

including former England rugby star Matt Dawson,

We'll hear from two families affected by this devastating

Hello and welcome to the programme, we're on BBC Two and the BBC

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A ruling due in the next half hour could change the way gang and group

crime is prosecuted in cases known as joint enterprise.

The prosecution tool, which is used in murder cases

involving groups of people, means there is no need to prove

a member of the group intended to kill.

To be guilty of murder, the prosecution need only show that

someone foresaw the person they were with "might" kill

It's controversial because many campaigners believe it too easily

allows those who play a minor role to be prosecuted for murder.

This morning's ruling is around a challenge brought by a man called

Ameen Jogee, who was convicted of murder under joint enterprise,

because he encouraged a friend to stab a former police officer.

His legal team have asked the judges to consider whether possible

foresight of harm is a high enough threshold to convict

We'll hear from his mother shortly, but first our reporter Jim Reed has

been looking at the complex issues around Joint Enterprise.

A Met Police video from a couple of years back.

The person with the knife, the Dell egging him on,

The person with the knife, the girl egging him on,

the friend who stood back and let it all happen?

The answer, of course, could be all three.

Joint enterprise is not a law but a legal principle.

To be guilty of murder, you don't have

to be the one carrying out the act of killing.

The test is whether a member of a group or gang should be

able to foresee another member might commit serious bodily harm.

The jury has found both Gary Dobson and David

Norris guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence...

In the case of Stephen Lawrence, the police could never prove

who physically stabbed teenager, but after a long wait,

his family got some justice when Gary

Dobson and Steven Norris were given life sentences,

both convicted under joint enterprise.

It was first used as a deterrent to stop able getting

involved in duelling three centuries ago.

This is something police and prosecutors have started to rely

on more, especially in complex gang killings.

Research out in 2014, found over the past eight years,

at least 1800 people were prosecuted under joint enterprise.

More than 17% of all murder cases in the UK.

Last night, Victoria Station was brought to a standstill

after a 15-year-old boy was stabbed to

The victim was chased into the station and stabbed

12 teenagers have appeared in court in London charged with the murder

Take the death of 15-year-old Sofyen Belamouadden

The biggest ever prosecution of a gang over a murder.

Eight were convicted in total, including a 16-year-old.

He was carrying a weapon, but was outside

the station at the time the victim was stabbed.

Critics say the law is just too blunt and can lead to the wrong

It's backers say it is often the only way of getting any form

Its backers say it is often the only way of getting any form of justice

As I mentioned the judgement centres around a challenge by Ameen Jogee.

And earlier, I spoke to his mother Rachel Whitehead -

she told me how she was feeling ahead of the ruling.

Nervous, anxious, excited, all rolled into one. I couldn't sleep

last night because it is a very big day for us all. This ruling will

have a massive effect on everyone if successful. If not, the fight

continues. It centres on where you draw the line on whether somebody is

guilty of murder when they are at the scene of a crime. Your son was

at the front door of a house, his friend was inside. He stabbed the

former police officer and killed him and subsequently your son was found

guilty of murder by joint enterprise. What do you think about

where the line should be? I think the second party, if not proving he

was encouraging or did not know what was going to go on, you cannot

foresee somebody else's actions, what they are capable of doing or

knowing what they're going to do. My son was outside the property at the

time and the altercation took place inside the house and the weapon was

taken inside the house. So he had no idea what was going on inside the

property last night. He had gone off and come back, told his co-accused,

let's go. Oblivious to what was going on in the house. The person

inside, the witness said that my son was egging him on. It wasn't proven

in court, because there was no word said that what Ameen had said by the

witness. In this case, focusing on your son, it could attention they

have a big impact on the law? A very big impact, yes. Are you aware of

the impact? Yes, yes. Is that as important to you as to what happens

to your son? We are all in this together, whoever is fighting this

draw, we are all in it together, standing side-by-side. There are

parents whose children have been killed and their killers have been

convicted under joint enterprise in a prosecution that might not have

been possible. So they are equally concerned about the potential

ramifications of this outcome. How do you see that other elements of

this? I can understand, having lost someone close to them, and I can

understand how they feel with this law. We have also lost somebody.

Although we get to go and see them, we have lost somebody to the system

for life. It is fair they get justice for their children, every

parent would want that. As far as it goes with the law, it is locking too

many innocent people up, there are hundreds of people locked up under

this law, which is so unfair if they had no part to play. The person who

committed the murder should be charged with murder. It is not fair

bringing other people down if they haven't done anything. For example,

Ameen. He was outside the property, oblivious to what was going on, but

he is convicted of murder, serving a life sentence. What do you do after

the ruling if it goes against Ameen, what happens next? We continue to

fight. We will continue to fight. It will not end here. What are the

potential options after today? More campaigning, more research. Just

keep on going. That was Rachel Whitehead whose son

was given a life sentence after he encouraged a friend to stab up

former police officer in 2011. He is challenging the rules on joint

enterprise. Listening to that was a man who son was murdered in

Sunderland in 2007. Three men were convicted of stabbing him to death

under joint enterprise. What happened to your son, Kevin? It was

in May 2007. Kevin and his partner had been out for a drink on the

Friday night. They had got back home, in the bedroom ready to go to

bed and there was a commotion outside. Kevin looked out of the

window and saw the three boys. They were gesturing to him to come out,

shouting obscenities at him. He did go out to remonstrate with them,

tell them to shut up and move on. But a fight ensued and he was

stabbed four times. The fourth time was through his heart and that was

fatal. His killers were convicted of joint enterprise, how important was

joint enterprise to this case? It is very important because neither of

them admitted to it, they all pleaded not guilty. So this law can

convict them all. I know there was only one that actually stabbed

Kevin, but if the evidence shows the other two had a major part in it,

rightly so they should all get locked up at the same time. How do

you feel about the fact the Supreme Court is looking now at the issue of

joint enterprise? I am very disappointed. To meet, joint

enterprise is a good tool to have, it has been around for over 300

years and it has worked for all of that time. Why tinker with something

that isn't broke. They should be looking at ways of stopping the

murders, looking at solutions and deterrence, rather than tinkering

with the law. Campaigners say they are concerned it is too blunt tool

for murder convictions and it has led to people being convicted of

murder where they went directly involved. How do you see it? I can

only talk about our Kevin's case and the evidence that was put in front

of the judge and the jury. It got those three lads convicted. Fair

enough, it was only one but stabbed Kevin, but the other two played a

part. Without joint enterprise, would a conviction have been

possible in this case? I wouldn't have thought so. Thank you very

much, John Johnson. We will be live at the court for the judgment at

9:45am and we will bring it to you then.

Still to come: After the tragic death of two-year-old

Faye Burdett from meningitis, thousands sign an online petition

calling for vaccines to be given to all children.

With models still coming under pressure to lose weight,

should the fashion industry be forced to protect the youngest

by banning under-18s from the catwalk?

Downing Street has said EU leaders are leaning towards doing a deal in

the next two days on the UK's relationship with the EU.

David Cameron heads to Brussels for a final push on nailing down

the details of a proposed deal on Britain's future with the EU.

The Prime Minister says he is optimistic despite glitches over

migrants and other EU countries. Bobbies are taken off the beat for

around half their time on duty. More than 1000 patients have suffered

serious medical errors in hospitals in England over the last four years,

including the wrong claims being operated on and medical equipment

being left inside the body. More than 400 thousand people have

signed an online petition calling for all children under the age of 11

to be vaccinated against meningitis B after the death of the little girl

last weekend. The former England rugby union player, Matt Dawson has

urged people to sign the petition. And an Australian town has been

consumed by 'hairy panic' - it's the name given

to a fast-growing tumbleweed that's And there it is. It looks pretty

terrible. Let's catch up with all the sport

now and join Jess for the latest Nike have dropped their boxer, money

patio but his anti-gay comments. But they have dropped him before in 2012

for similar remarks he made, but they re-signed him. He has

apologised and says he respects the decision. Elsewhere, Wayne Rooney is

out for six weeks with a knee injury. He has been in brilliant

form with Manchester United of late. It'll be a big blow to them. They

have only one other recognised first-team striker on the box at the

moment. We will be looking at how it affects England. And finally, Ronnie

O'Sullivan is bored. He has suggested organisers at the Welsh

open where he is at the moment, build an adult creche to entertain

him in Cardiff. He has been on Twitter talking about it. We will

hear about him talking about the not so glamorous life of the snooker

player at ten o'clock. Should underwritings be banned from

the catwalk? -- under 18s. Some countries have bought in health

requirements. At the start of London Fashion Week, our reporter has been

looking at the latest calls to change the modelling industry.

Or too thin, too young and not real women?

I've seen girls who clearly have drug problems and I saw girls eating

almost nothing in order to stay a certain weight.

This 19-year-old Swedish model went viral last year when she put a video

online saying she couldn't get work because she was too big.

According to the modelling industry, you cannot look like this.

The modelling industry has long been scrutinised and change is happening.

In December, France passed a law banning the use of

It joined Italy, Spain and Israel in legislating

All the girls on my catwalk have different bodies.

The breasts, the hips and the tight waists.

Rosie Nelson has been modelling for four years.

Originally from Australia, she lives in London.

A size eight, she says she was told to get enough.

I went into an agency in London about a year ago and they said

you have done well, we just need you to get skinnier.

I went away and I dieted really heavily.

I cut out all sugar, exercised crazily

At the end of the month of dieting, my ribs were sticking out,

my bones were sticking out, I looked really ill.

I went back to see them and they said, you look good,

you are losing weight, but we want you

When they said that, I thought, I can't lose

I started a petition on changed at all

Hundreds and hundreds of girls messaged me to say they'd had

They'd become anorexic or bulimic and there

in courage to do lose weight just for the modelling agency.

We are told an inquiry will recommend under 18s be banned from

the catwalk. Legislation would make sure you were not seeing 16 to

18-year-olds with a BMI of 15.16 told to lose weight. On the catwalk

especially, under 18 is too young because it does encourage a bullish

look, like a boy's body is quite straight, and women have hips, most

women have hips, it is how we naturally are. Having a girl that is

underdeveloped, when they are modelling womenswear, they are not

representing women. It was all true skinny models that made this British

designer make their own rules for photo shoots. Our experience of

professional models is that they just don't eat. They tell us they

are under pressure to lose weight in order to secure more work. They tell

us the extremes they go to. As an example, eating tissues to stop

their stomachs rumbling, this sort of stuff. We know they are hungry.

We had one model who had come in for a test shoot, she was clearly

hungry, she wouldn't eat. She became delirious, talking Jibril Ridge, she

was clearly weak. She was having to hold onto something, rather than

just stand of her own free will, and we had to call it a day and sent her

home. They have added a clause to contracts for the models that says

they have to eat one on the shoot. It is a bit nannying to tell women

what to do? It is, to a degree, but the demand for how the model looks

comes from the designers, so what we're saying is, we're not going to

be part of that demand. Have you been criticised? It is interesting,

the views are polarised, we either get a lot of encouragement or the

diametric opposite. What if the women don't want to eat with the?

Then they won't sign the contract and they won't come to work with us.

Should under 18s be banned from the catwalk? It is positive this is

being discussed at a high level, most models start between 13 and 16,

the industry is likely to argue they are being discriminated against

because under 18s can work in other industries. I think it would be

silly because you would be missing a lot of talent unless the same thing

was applied to ballerinas, athletes who have to perform at a certain

level and be a certain level of fitness, eat certain amount under

18. Should they be banned from competing? Where should we stop? Do

you see there are girls who make themselves ill and feel undue

pressure to be very small? Yes, I was a model very momentarily when I

was a student and I saw girls eating almost nothing in order to stay a

certain weight. I've seen girls who clearly have drug problems, clearly

have had eating disorders, very few and far between. But like any

industry anywhere one in 100 people can have a problem. It is the

responsibility of the agency or that girl's peer or parents to keep an

eye on them. No legislation can take the place of apparent. Does your

decision mean you cannot get high end brands? Yes, there are

definitely designers that would never book me because of my size.

Very thin models concern many in and outside of the industry, because of

the health implications for the women and the message they send to

those that admire them. A minimum body mass index had been suggested,

but Rosie and others don't think that would work. You can stick

numbers on anyone but it doesn't represent how tall they are, what

their body looks like, it is just a few numbers. I have a very low BMI

but I am tall and too big for some jobs, so it doesn't make sense to

use a BMI scale because it doesn't represent it. The funny part with

this is that my body mass index is 17.5, the body mass index you should

have is 19. And they still tell me that I'm too big.

What do you think needs to change to make the models on the catwalk and

in magazines better represent us, normal women? I think the big thing

that needs to change is who the shows are for. In the old days,

pre-digital, fashion shows were for the industry. Since the digital age,

first of all it was blogs, then Instagram, now you can see a show, I

can watch any show I want without having to go near catwalk. So brands

have realised this, and Burberry was one of the first. I have a very

strong suspicion, when these shows start becoming more commonplace, you

and I will not want to see a 17-year-old size six model wearing

those clothes. We will want to see a woman like us. I think we are coming

to the end of an era. Barbie, the doll, has been bought up to date for

the 21st century because millennial 's do not identify with her. If you

look at the supermodels of now, the most popular models in the world are

the ones with the biggest Instagram accounts, such as Kendall Jenner,

and they are, in inverted commas, normal. The inquiry followed the

collapse of a voluntary code of conduct introduced a decade ago to

keep young teens of the catwalk. It didn't work. Models as young as 14

have walked at London Fashion Week. Next time, they may not be allowed.

If you want to share that film you can find it

on our programme page bbc.co.uk/victoria.

In the next hour we will have an interview with a woman who started

modelling at the age of 15. Let us know what you think, all the usual

ways of getting in touch. Should all children automatically be

given the meningitis B vaccine? The former England rugby player

Matt Dawson has published what he's called "upsetting" images

of his toddler son, Sami, Matt Dawson says Sami is now well,

but he is urging people to sign a petition calling for all children

to be given the jab. At the moment babies get

the vaccine, but parents who want to have older

children vaccinated The petition was launched

after the death on Valentine's Day of a two-year-old girl from Kent,

Faye Burdett, from meningitis. We'll show you the picture her

parents released yesterday now. It is distressing, so if you have

young children in the room But her parents wanted to release it

to raise awareness of meningitis. Her family say they are enduring

"a pain you cannot describe". Overnight, an online petition

calling for all children to be giving the vaccination has passed

400,000 signatories. Georgie Hall was just 23 months

old when she contracted meningitis Georgie's father Matt Hall joins

us from Norwich. Danny Sweatman lost two

brothers to meningitis. His brother Joe died

from the disease at just seven weeks old, and his 19-year-old brother

Ryan died from meningitis B while studying at Sheffield

Hallam University. Since then the family

has raised over ?80,000 And we are joined by Claire Donovan,

the helpline manager at Meningitis Now. Matt, so sorry about the loss

of your daughter Georgia. Tell us what happened. Thank you. It is

literally coming up to the one-year anniversary now, on Sunday we will

be thinking about Georgie again. It was just about this time last year

that he went into hospital, on the 18th of February, and she was a fit,

healthy, young, bubbly little girl, our little princess, and within

three days she lost her battle against meningitis. What were the

first signs? I was working away, my wife was at home with her and she

woke up crying, she had not long got to bed, two hours later woke up

crying, had a temperature, her breathing more than anything was the

thing that stood out for my wife, the heavy breathing, different to

the way she was normally breathing, just very irregular. She then

vomited and the temperature started to rise a little bit more but there

was no rash, and that is the key sign that we make clear to people,

there was no rash at that stage and it didn't come out until she got to

hospital. How long was that after the initial symptoms? About five to

six hours after she had suddenly woken up screaming, and then within

two to three hours my wife got her to hospital, then it was another

three to four hours later that the rash started to develop. When was

meningitis first mentioned? I think at that stage, when the rash started

to develop, there were a few blotches on the top part of her

body, they started to develop and become a little bit bitter, -- a

little bit bigger, then more started to develop on the top of her body,

and at that point they got meningitis was the reason and

started to treat the meningitis at that stage. It obviously took hold

very Cal is all about your brother and

what happened with my it started in 1991 women lost our brother Joe, he

was only seven weeks old, a similar story to what Matt was laying bare

with my brother and urging him to hospital, but devastatingly it just

took hold of him and we lost him. Since then we have been campaigning

for Bebo do understand the signs and symptoms. Unbelievably, 21 years

later, my brother Ryan, who was only 19 years old, studying sports

coaching at Sheffield Hallam University, had simple flu-like

symptoms, took himself to bed and didn't wake up in the morning, and

men into Google that the female taken over his body, he passed away

the night. For it to happen to us as a family wants is devastating, but

to happen again in 21 years after Joe passed away, there are just no

words. Your family is so conscious of the potential impact of

meningitis, what it is, the symptoms, the fact that it happened

to your second brother after the first one that shows how quickly it

can take old, because in spite of being aware, obviously it did happen

again? Absolutely, I think although we have been promoting the signs and

symptoms, through the Meningitis Research Foundation and Meningitis

Now, there is some unbelievable material out there, but for both Joe

and Ryan it came over to quickly, it was just all far too late and far

too quick, and for us the importance of the vaccines, meningitis C is

already available, and now this huge push in the last 18 months I suppose

for the meningitis B is, for us, just crucial because, yes, we can

look out for the signs, but if they have got any chance of stopping

there is absolutely horrendous disease, then that is what we are

keen to campaign for. There is this campaign, and so many

people signing the petition, what is the implication, newborn babies get

it, but that is it at the moment? I would like to send our heartfelt

sympathies to all families who have been bereaved through this horrible

disease. With regards to the new vaccine is the Meningitis B vaccine

that people have been talking about. It is one of the strains of

miniature cockle meningitis which causes most cases in the UK. It has

taken a very long time of research and development to get a vaccine

available. The vaccine was introduced to the NHS childhood

immunisation programme on the 1st of September last year. It is offered

to young babies are two, four years of age and 12 years of age. But it

is not being offered to older babies. Obviously, vaccination is

one thing and being aware of symptoms if somebody does get

meningitis. Another thing, once meningitis takes hold, how difficult

is it to actually cure it? Even with vaccinations, there is no vaccines

to cover all types of meningitis and not every vaccine is 100% effective.

It is important people understand what to look for with meningitis.

Part of the problem with the early stages, and some of it you have

already heard from the families who have been speaking, the early stages

can mimic everyday infections. So vomiting, fever, muscular pains,

headaches. Somebody that is developing bacterial meningitis will

become ill very quickly and other symptoms will appear. Other symptoms

to look out for will be a severe headaches, severe muscular pains,

stiff neck, dislike of right lights. In small children they may become

very drowsy, lethargic, vomiting, refusing feeds. Very small babies

might have a soft spot on the top of their head might be bulging. A

temperature. Often with the temperature, the hands and feet will

feel cold. These are some of the things to look out for. Somebody

mentioned the rush. The rush with meningitis is distinctive, it starts

like little pinpricks under the skin and can develop quickly to look like

purple bruising. One of the things a member has already said is the rash

doesn't appear for everybody. In many cases, when it does appear, it

it appears late. So we urge everybody not just to think of a

rash with regards to meningitis. If you are concerned of the symptoms

from somebody, trust your instincts and get them seen as soon as

possible. Matt, would you like to see your kids routinely vaccinated?

Without a doubt, it shouldn't come into question. Too many lives have

been taken. This vaccine would save so many lives and if Georgie had

been lucky enough to get it, she might have been here today. I know

you have paid privately to have your child vaccinated? Absolutely,

Maxwell, my son is coming up to two years old and as soon as the vaccine

became available privately, he missed the immunisation programme,

but we took him to a clinic and made sure he had a vaccine. New have

mentioned the cost of around ?300. For me, it is such a huge stumbling

blocks for many families across the UK, seeing the recent news. People

will want to vaccinate their children more, but at that cost it.

A lot of people doing it. I have friends and colleagues now who have

tried to go privately. There is a waiting list as well. Some of the

places are struggling to get hold of the vaccine. Rolling it out across

the UK is something we are desperate to push and this petition at the

moment is something I am desperately keen to get out to everyone who is

watching and listening today. Matt, you are nodding as you are listening

to Danny? A lot of people have been to get the vaccine, but we have had

some feed that they are struggling to find places who have it in stock.

There is a shortage of the vaccine and they cannot pay the large

amounts of money to get them vaccinated. It is something that

needs to be addressed quickly. Clare, people are talking about this

as a result of the sad cases there have been. Do you have much hope the

situation with vaccination might change? Obviously it is going to be

expensive for the NHS for this vaccine to be made routinely

available? As an organisation we would like to see an extension of

the vaccine programme to other age groups that are at risk. Somebody

has mentioned there is a problem at the moment with private supplies.

That is due to global demand as well. It is a difficult situation at

the moment. In terms of treatment, is that improving? The main thing

with meningitis is getting it recognised early and getting

antibiotics into the child or the adult that has the meningitis, as

soon as possible. That can be really life-saving. There are cases that

when it is diagnosed early, treatment is started right away and

it doesn't change the outcome are some people, it can just overwhelm

the body so quickly. Thank you all very much for joining us. Let me

bring you some of your comments. The possibility of under 18 's been

banned from the catwalk. Lots of you getting in touch. One e-mail has

said all designers who request skinny models should be named and

shamed. Another one says a fascinating

feature on size of models. Derek has treated -- tweeted, there

should be a weight limit, nobody under eight stone.

Graham has treated, accusing model agencies encouraging people to harm

themselves of joint enterprise. We can go live to the Supreme Court

on the judgments of joint enterprise. Let's listen in to the

judgment. This meant that the mental element necessary for a secondary

party to be guilty of murder was less than the intent required for

the principle to be guilty of murder. To be guilty of murder, the

principal had to be proved to have intended to cause death or grievous

bodily harm. But, the test for the secondary party was lower. That

principle, introduced by the Privy Council, was followed by the house

of lords and has been applied in many subsequent cases. In these

appeals, the trial judges cannot be criticised for following that

principle in their directions to the jury, but the court has been asked

to rias -- re-examine the principle. In a unanimous judgment, the court

concludes the development was wrong as a matter of law. The cases relied

on it do not properly supported. There were others that were against

it, but those cases were not fully discussed. It went that normal rule

for secondary parties. As to homicide, it effectively redrew the

line between murder and manslaughter and in doing so, it has created

anomalies and complex at ease which have led to a large number of

appeals to the Court of Appeal. The error was to treat the secondary

party's foresight that a person who might commit crime be automatically

enough for the secondary party to be guilty of assisting or encouraging

the principle to commit the crime. The correct position is, the

secondary party's foresight on what the principle might do is evidence,

from which the jury might infer that the secondary party had intended to

assist or encourage the principle to do that. But it is for the jury to

decide on the whole of the evidence, whether the secondary party had the

necessary intent. This court is always very cautious before

departing from a previous decision of the house of lords or the Supreme

Court. But in this case, the court is satisfied after an much fuller

review of the law than in the earlier cases, that the courts took

a wrong turn in 1984. And it is the responsibility of this Court to put

the law right. The correction is in line with what Parliament has

recently abided in a closely related field, when it created new offences

of intentionally encouraging or assisting the commission of a crime

in the serious crime act 2007. And it has provided a person is not to

be taken to have had such intention, merely because of foreseeability.

The effect of the ruling in these two cases is to bring the mental

element required of the secondary party back into line with that which

is required of the principle. And to bring the law back to the principles

which had been established before the law took a wrong turn in 1984.

That is the Supreme Court judgment and that is the Supreme Court saying

the law on joint enterprise has been wrongly interpreted why criminal

trial judges over the past 30 years. Saying the courts took a wrong turn

in 1984 and it is the responsibility of this court to put the law right.

Let's go live now to our legal eagle Clive Coleman who is live outside

Dramatic rulings? It is complicated, let me explain it. This relates to

the role of secondary parties involved in murder. A secondary

party is the person who doesn't wield the knife, doesn't inflict the

fatal blow, but is somehow involved or connected with those who do. The

test for prosecuting those people from murder, and if you are

prosecuted for murder and convicted, you get a life sentence. The test

has been a test of foresight, what you could foresee. Could you foresee

another person you are connected with with either, or might either,

go on to kill or to inflict serious bodily harm? It wasn't the test of

intention, what you intended, if you intended to assist or encourage, it

was a test of what you could foresee. Even if you could see a

slight possibility that person might go on to pull a knife to stab and to

kill. What the Supreme Court has done today is very dramatic, wiped

away the test. It has said the test was wrong and judges have been

direct and jewellery is incorrectly since the mid-19 80s on that test.

What they have said is foresight alone is not alone. It is not alone

for you to foresee another person connected with you might either kill

or might commit serious harm. Foresight can be evidence of what

you intended, whether you intended to actively assist or encourage. If

you did intend to actively encourage or cyst, you will be guilty of

murder. The judges have been setting the bar too low and have been

misdirecting juries for 30 years. What does that mean? It means the

two cases appealed here today, the convictions have been set aside

because of incorrect directions to the jury. Does it mean those men

will walk free? No, it doesn't. In the key UK case they were looking

at, a case of a man called Ameen Jogee, who was outside a flat when a

co-defendant was inside took out a knife and stabbed a former police

officer called Paul Fife, whilst Ameen Jogee was outside the flat and

was egging him on. The court said there is enough evidence that he

would be guilty of manslaughter and it has asked for submissions as to

whether there should be a retrial for murder or whether the

prosecution should accept a plea of guilty for manslaughter. That is

what it means in that case, Ameen Jogee might not walk free, but there

might be a retrial. What about the cases where people have been

convicted after the judge has given this now incorrect direction? It

doesn't automatically mean they will have their cases appealed, they can

go to the Court of Appeal but they will have to argue they have

suffered substantial hardship as a result of the misdirection. I think

we can expect a line of cases to go to the Court of Appeal saying, I

have been banged up from murder based on the wrong direction, had

the correct direction being given the jury would not have can be did

me and I should be allowed to appeal my conviction. It is a truly,

dramatic day here. There has been a lot of pressure, a campaign ran for

many years saying this test is too low and that people who perhaps was

simply present at the scene of a murder, I stand as if you like, have

been swept up in prosecutions and have been imprisoned, convicted of

murder and given life sentences. They will be delighted by this

ruling and I think we can expect a lot of activity in terms of people

who have been commit did under these misdirection is given by judges, to

go to the Court of Appeal and seek to have their convictions

overturned. What does it mean for joint

enterprise in general? Campaigners argue that are cases where

prosecutions and convictions have been bored that would not have been

possible without joint enterprise? Absolutely. This doesn't change the

fact that, in many instances of crimes, let's take murder, if a

murder is committed and a group of people were involved, it sometimes

isn't possible to say who inflicted the fatal blow. Joint enterprise and

allows a group to be prosecuted, but if you are a secondary party then

you cannot be prosecuted and convicted simply because you may

have foreseen that someone would be killed or seriously harmed.

Prosecutions will continue but I think what it will force prosecutors

to do is to look very carefully at who the key players were, who are

the key movers, the key actors, and who were the people who were on the

periphery, the bit part players, if you like, to focus the prosecution

for murder on those key individuals. Other people involved could be

prosecuted for a variety of crimes, affray, violent disorder if this is

a gang incident outside a pub, a fight flares up, and even the

manslaughter, but for murder, the most serious crime in the canon, to

be prosecuted if you are a secondary party, it is not sufficient that you

simply foresaw that another person within the group might either kill

or might commit serious harm. If I've got time, let me give you a

couple of examples that perhaps bring this home to people. Let's

assume a gang of ten youths go out in an evening, one of them had a

knife, let's say three of them know that this one person carries a

knife, but there are six others. A fight flares up outside a pub, the

one concerned get involved in the fight, takes out a knife, stabbed

and killed the victim. The other six on the sidelines are shouting,

cheering perhaps. Is it right that all of them should be prosecuted for

murder? Under this ruling the prosecution would have to look

carefully at the key players and who were the secondary parties, and

those secondary party is good only be prosecuted if they assisted the

murder. Thank you very much. More on that judgment from the Supreme Court

coming up. I'm Joanna Gosling

in for Victoria, welcome to the programme if

you've just joined us. The breaking news in the last few

minutes, the way in which judges interpret joint enterprise has been

wrong for nearly 30 years. We will bring the reaction to that Supreme

Court ruling over the next hour. Also:

With models still under pressure to be unhealthily thin,

should the UK fashion industry be forced to ban under-18s

We hear from women about what it's like to be constantly told

I went away and just I did really heavily, cut out all sugar, I

exercised like crazy every day and I went back to see them at four months

later and they said, you are doing good, losing weight, we just want

you to get down to the bone. And we'll hear from a mum who says

she is going to do everything to create the best memories possible

for her three children who have a rare genetic disease

which could kill them before The main news this morning, we have

just had that dramatic ruling in the law on joint enterprise that we have

been covering this morning, the Supreme Court says criminal trial

judges have been wrongly interpreting legislation for the

past 30 years. That is the legislation that allows gang members

to be convicted even if they have not directly carried out the crime.

1000 moving parts but a deal is possible, so says Number Ten as EU

leaders and David Cameron prepare to hammer out a final deal on reform.

The Prime Minister's headed for a Brussels summit,

and if agreement is reached during what's expected to be

an intense 48 hours of talks, we could have a referendum

More than 400,000 people have now signed an online petition,

calling for all children under the age of 11 to be vaccinated

against meningitis B after the death of little girl last weekend.

British Gas has reported a sharp rise in profits,

It insists it has reduced costs for customers as wholesale prices

Bobbies are taken off the beat for around half their time on duty,

They say neighbourhood policing's at risk because officers are not

diverted to other task such as guarding crime scenes.

A ban on models under the age of 18 from the catwalk could be

recommended by MPs later this month, this programme has been told.

Models still faced strong pressure to be exceptionally thin.

And an Australian town has been consumed by 'hairy panic' -

it's the name given to a fast-growing tumbleweed that's

Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Jess for the latest

on Nike distancing themselves from boxer Manny Pacquiao.

Yes, Nike have ended their sponsorship deal with boxer

Manny Pacquiao, for anti-gay comments he made.

Pacquiao, running for a seat in the Phillipines parliament,

later apologised for saying homosexuals are 'worse

This isn't the first time either - Nike dropped him

in 2012, after he made similar anti-gay remarks,

Earlier this morning Pacquiao tweeted this -

No hard feelings it seems, as he's still fully kitted out

Pacquiao has said he respects their decision.

In a statement, Nike said:

Now, in the past, a long-term injury to England captain Wayne Rooney

in the months leading up to a major tournament would have been huge news

But with the likes of Harry Kane and Jamie Vardy impressing this

season, Rooney's six-week lay-off with a knee injury is receiving more

The main focus is on his club's plight, Manchester United,

The Daily Telegraph focus on the effects on United's success

and The Daily Mail say it's a hammer blow for manager Louis van Gaal.

And The Sun, a brief mention of England

Rooney is expected back from injury in early April,

so will miss England's friendly internationals against Germany

Snooker now, and it was another dominant performance

by Ronnie O'Sullivan at the Welsh Open in

He thrashed Jimmy Robertson 4-0 to reach the fourth round.

After the match though, he revealed how bored

So bored in fact, he suggested organisers put in an adult creche

He's Ronnie on the not so glamorous life of a snooker player.

I get so bored at these tournaments, maybe stick an adult pressure to

entertain us, because honestly as just want to go home now. I've had a

haircut, being in a Chinese, went to the cafe for a couple of hours, I

have had asleep, bought a bit of grub, what a day. It is certainly

not glamorous. Don't get me wrong, I like Cardiff, but it is really long,

at Sheffield is 17 days and am already dreading that. That is if

you get to the final. He actually got some interesting

replies from fans on Twitter. He was invited to Cardiff's

indoor climbing centre. One fan offered to take him

for a pint and some sushi. Drinking is probably not

the best preparation. But that is all the sport by now.

He needs something to cheer him up! Hello, thank you for

joining us this morning. Welcome to the programme

if you've just joined us. We're on BBC Two and the BBC

News Channel until 11am. Throughout the programme we will

bring more reaction to the breaking ruling on joint enterprise from the

Supreme Court. Judges have been told they have wrongly interpreted the

law over the last 30 years. Get in touch on all of the stories we are

talking about, text charged at the standard network rate.

Wherever you are you can watch our programme online

via the BBC News app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

We have got some breaking news from Police Scotland, we are just hearing

that a second elderly hill walkers who was among a group of three who

went missing near Durisdeer in Dumfries and Galloway has died in

hospital, so a second elderly hill walkers among a group of three that

went missing has died in hospital. We will bring you more as we get it.

Should under-18s be banned from the catwalk?

This programme has learnt that a report by MPs out at the end

of this month is due to recommend exactly that in a bid to protect

them from an industry plagued by problems like eating disorders.

Other countries have already brought in health requirements instead.

Ahead of the start of London Fashion Week tomorrow,

our reporter Catrin Nye has been looking at the latest calls

Beautiful, aspirational, glamorous - or too thin, too young,

This Swedish model went viral last year.

According to the model industry, you cannot look like this.

Rosie Nelson has been modelling for four years.

Originally from Australia, she lives in London.

A size eight, she says she was told to get thinner.

So I went away and I just dieted really heavily.

And I went back to see them about four months later,

and they said, "You're doing good, you're losing weight.

We just want you to get down to the bone..."

I just sat there thinking, "I can't lose

I started a petition on Change.org, just to raise awareness.

Hundreds and hundreds of girls messaged me saying the same thing

had happened to them, they had been encouraged to become

In December Rosie took that petition to

Parliament, with Caroline Nokes, the MP.

The same MP 's leading Parliamentary inquiry that started in October. At

the end of the month, we're told the inquiry will recommend that under

18s should be banned from the catwalk. Legislation is what would,

at a stroke, make sure you were not seeing 16 to 18-year-olds with a BMI

of 15.6 being told to lose weight. Under 18 is young because it does

encourage a ball schlock. When they were model womenswear, they do not

represent women. It would be silly because you are missing a lot of

talent, unless the same would apply to ballerinas, athlete, who have to

perform at a certain level and be at a certain level of fitness under 18.

Should they be banned from competing? Where do we stop? It is

the responsibility of the agencies or that girl's peer or parents to

keep an eye on them. No legislation can take the place of a parent. It

was ultra-skinny models that made this small British designer make

their own rules for photo shoots. Our experience of professional

models is that they just really don't eat. They tell a fire under

pressure to lose weight. Heidy has added a clause to contracts for her

models to say they have to eat when on a shoot. We are saying we are not

going to be part of that demand. The inquiry followed the collapse of a

voluntary code of conduct introduced a decade ago to keep young teens off

the catwalk. It didn't work. Models as young as 14 have walked at London

Fashion Week. Israeli model Maayan Keret

began her career at just She runs workshops now for young

girls about body image and self-esteem. What age were you on

the catwalk from? I started at 16, started modelling at 15.5 and was

already during the summer road show, Marc Jacobs, whoever, at 16. Do you

think that is old enough to be on a catwalk? What did you think about

the suggestion that models should have to be 18 and over? I think it

is a bit strict, but I think it is true that it is too young. I'm

thinking the age of 15 or 16 you should still go to school and hang

out with your friends. I think, at the moment, when I was 16, I thought

it was the best experience, maybe not the best but I thought it was

good experience, but now when I think back, I think it was too early

and I was too young and too naive to deal with this kind of business and

this kind of pressure. The people may be good people but it is still a

business. What was the pressure that you were under? The pressure was a

lot of pressure, a physical pressure of working a lot of hours and

standing on your feet for many, many hours, and it was a mental pressure

of being your best all the time, being successful, as any worker has

to be, but at a very young age, and of course to be slim at the age of,

when your body is still developing and you still need fact, the need as

a model is to be thinner than you are naturally, even if you are thin.

Where does that pressure come from? We were hearing from Rosie who said

she had to slim down to the bone. Were you told things like that? No,

never told to slim down to the bone, nobody told me such hard words, but

they did measure me with a measured tape every day, sometimes even a few

times a day, depending on the time of the year, and the amount of work

I had. I needed to be in certain measures that were not always my

natural body, even though I was a thin girl all my life, I was still

not the right measure, which is, I don't know what it is today, but it

was rough back then. So I needed to be on the right measure, and I never

got any explanation of how to get to this measure. So I always needed to

find out myself how to get to this impossible measure.

You say impossible measures, what did you do to get to them? I didn't

eat enough, I was doing extreme diets all the years from 16 to 21.

Which was kind of anorexic. I wasn't eating, almost. I was very low

weight it and not eating enough, didn't have a lot of things in my

body working right at the time because I didn't eat enough. I never

got to extreme anorexia, but I was anorexic. Did anybody show any

concern about that? Not really, maybe once or twice a client said

maybe I am too thin and somebody should take care of it. But nobody

did, nobody. Where you markedly thinner than the others or is it

just the norm you got used to? I was never thinner than the others. I was

the same like all the other girls. I was even heavier, a little bit

sometimes. Because my normal body shape is a little heavier. Not

heavy, but heavier than a model. Do you think the fashion industry and

obviously there are lots of strands to that, that the fashion industry

should take responsibility for this? And if so, is it the agencies, is it

the designers and what could or should be done? I think everybody

should take responsibility for that. The fashion industry and also the

other media, or the media should take care of that which models we

should see in shows and different TV shows and on the runways, in the

fashion industry and I think the agencies, the designers, everybody

has to think about it. It is not only about eating disorders.

Sometimes eating disorders are actually mental problems. I think it

is more about body image and more about women all over the world, but

don't feel good with their body. A lot of it is connected to the role

models we see in the campaigns, in the advertising and in the

magazines, where ever. I think everybody should take responsibility

for that. Lots of people getting in touch, Harry on Facebook, I

appreciate it is the ambition of thousands of young girls but it is

an exploitative and pressured industry. As for models in general,

there is nothing attractive about sticking out hipbones and ribs. They

might as well hang clothes on E T. Someone else says, a fashion model

should be banned if the model is too thin. Is there comparisons in the

fashion industry with what looked good and noble people out there? I

think there are little changes in the last few months that we see

better images in some places and maybe we can be carefully optimistic

when received the Pirelli calendar of different women. So yes, I think

the fashion industry makes a a few small steps. The image we used

to see in the fashion industry, is nothing to do with real life, it is

to do with a fantasy world of designers, it has to do with

escapism. It is nothing to do with real beauty of real women. I am not

saying models are not real women, of course they are, but it is not the

beauty we see on the streets and in the different places, which I think

we should aim for, try to be or do our best to take care of our health

and body to look like. You were 15 when you started modelling, 16 when

he went on the catwalk, what impact did those pressures have on your

self-esteem? I had a very low self esteem. On one level I had a high

self-esteem of people telling me how great I looked, because as a model,

I was doing very well. I was very successful. I had high self-esteem

for that. With my life, with relationships with having a normal

regular live, I didn't have a real dig self-esteem because it was

always related to how I look at work, how I look with enough

make-up, how I look perfect as a model, but nothing to do with my

everyday life. So my self-esteem was very low and I had to work for very

many years and very hard to build up that self-esteem. Like, my real

self-esteem, not only my persona self-esteem. Do you wish you hadn't

gone into that world? No, I don't like regrets, I think it is a waste

of time. I am not thinking I shouldn't. I wish I was a little

older in this world so I had more tools to deal with the pressure and

I was a little bit more mature and self-confident. But I don't regret,

because what I do today, I help hundreds, maybe thousands of young

girls, it has to do with the journey I went through by myself. If I

didn't go through this journey, I could never do what I do. I could

never understand. You are helping these girls, are they girls who have

had the same experiences and you are coaxing them at it, or are you

helping them deal with the world as they are in it? I work with normal

girls, I don't work with models, but sometimes I have a model in my

workshop. But I work with regular girls. Any girl has the same issues,

maybe when you are a model it is just a little deeper and stronger.

But it is the same issues. Thank you very much. Thank you, it was a

pleasure. If you want to share that

film you can find it on our programme page

bbc.co.uk/victoria. Mum whose children have a rare

genetic disease which means they could die before they reach 17 say

she's going to do what she can do to create the best memories they have.

They all have micro-conned real disease. She had no idea she was a

carrier until the children were given the diagnosis. Little is known

about this, but it's thought one in 200 babies in the UK are born with

genetic changes that could cause it. It's described as a DNA time bomb

and there is no cure. What is mitochondrial disease?

Small, strong and full of energy just like the mitochondria that is

in every cell in your body. Mitochondria are the life force

inside us all. They are the power supply in all ourselves providing

energy for them to survive, thrive and make sweet music. Our bodies'

organs, brain, heart and liver are high maintenance and require more

energy to perform their functions. When someone has mitochondrial

disease, the mitochondria have become rundown and the cell's power

goes out. They stop performing and start to die. So the body's organs

don't have enough energy to work. Mitochondrial disease can affect

anyone. Recent research shows about one in 200 babies in the UK are born

with genetic changes that can cause it. Faulty micro-conned you have

been linked to a number of common diseases. -- mitochondria. Whilst

some people don't show symptoms, others develop problems that are

undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. There are very few effective treatments

and no cure. For children with the disease it can be debilitating and

their lives can be cut tragically short.

That film was given to us by the Lilly foundation and it helps to

explain the effects the illness has on people. We can talk to Lisa, her

three children, may seek, Callum and 13-year-old Jack Doyle have

mitochondria. Thank you for coming in to talk to us. I have met two of

your kids, I've met Callum and Macy, absolutely gorgeous. Up until a few

years ago, you thought you had a very healthy family? Yes, everything

was fine until Callum just became unwell. Then we got this diagnosis

and obviously the whole world just turned upside down. I know you are

talking because you want people to be aware because it is something

that is very rare? Very rare. You didn't know anything about it until

it has such a devastating impact on your family. What for the first

signs in Callum? Callum, when he was about ten, the school rang me and

said he was struggling throwing and catching a ball, so they asked me

would I take him to the doctor and ask if there was anything there.

Just to get him checked out. We took him and they said, we'll get him

referred just to see if there was a problem. They thought it was

dyspraxia, with that it is physio and things like that. And

occupational therapy. That went on for about a year and a half and we

were getting help with that. What we didn't know at the time was it was

the starting signs of mitochondrial disease. It can go unnoticed, it can

be misdiagnosed. Mitochondrial disease has been other things. He

was actually starting to present with the symptoms then, but

obviously we didn't know and nobody else knew it at the time. What with

the symptoms and when was it picked up? It wasn't picked up until he was

12 when he started high school when things started to become a lot more

serious. He actually started collapsing to the floor. He had a

serious bang to the head in school, which led to me taking him to the

doctor. It led to him going to the hospital for an MRI scan. When you

were told about mitochondrial disease, what we are told? They just

said... Your child has mitochondrial disease. Which obviously I'd never

heard of before. There is no cure, no medication, nothing we can do for

him at all. He would have to undergo a muscle and skin biopsy, which was

sent off to Newcastle University for further testing. To see what type of

micro-conned real disease he had -- mitochondrial disease. To see if

other family members had the gene. You carry it, don't you, but you

obviously didn't know that? No other family members had been affect it.

Everybody was fit and healthy. It is a severely life limiting disease? It

is. When you were first told, what were you told? When we were first

told it was genetic, obviously I was told that it was me that was the

carrier. It was heartbreaking. For me, as a

mum, to find out... Which then led to my other two children being

tested. Their blood tests came back within about three to four weeks, we

then found out that they also had the gene, they all have high

affected cells, and the higher your cells are affected, the more you

become affected. Our gene is very rare, as well. All my three children

present in very different ways, even though they have the same gene, the

symptoms are completely different as well, which is very strange to other

people, but this is the thing with mitochondrial disease, it is very

complex will stop no two people will ever be the same. But you obviously

know now, because in retrospect with Callan when you did not know what

was going on, presumably you are spotting symptoms in the other two

that you would not have picked up? Even my little girl, before she was

tested, I will spotting things in her before she was even tested. I

knew straightaway, I could see things from when my boys were

younger, I was picking up things, I took myself way back to when my boys

were little, I could pick things up even going back to when they were

younger, they were at school and they would say to me, they are not

retaining information in school, they are forgetting things by the

time they have gone from the teacher's desk to their own desk

they have come back to say, what was that again? They had completely

forgotten the information. They cannot retain information. It is

just a very, very hard, sad disease. And obviously for you as a mum,

wanting to do the best for your kids, wanting to protect them,

taking on board all that you were learning about the impact of

mitochondrial and the fact that it does mean that they are unlikely to

live beyond their teens... I was told that information in a genetics

meeting. You obviously did not tell them for some time, they have only

recently found out what it does mean for them. How can anyone cope with

that, really? I have got three children with the same disease. It

is your whole life over, really. You just think you are going to have...

You have got these three beautiful children... And you think you have

got this whole life mapped out ahead, and then you just... You are

flawed with this news is that there is no future, because there is no

cure for this disease. There is not enough known about it. There is just

not enough funding to be put into it, there is not enough people that

know about this disease, and it is not fair, it is just not fair.

Everybody will be watching, saying you are an amazing woman to talk

about this devastating situation for your family, and you are doing this

selflessly because you want to raise awareness. Very much. I've done

fundraising in my own town, obviously it has been in the papers

over the last couple of days. I just want to get as much awareness out

there as possible, because I want people to know what this is doing to

families and children, and nobody knows, nobody has ever heard of it

before. Even after two years of Callan being diagnosed, I still talk

to people and they go, I have never heard of it before. That is how

devastating this is, because nobody has heard of it before. All these

children are passing away with this disease that nobody has ever heard.

I mentioned that I met Maycee and Callum, really lovely kids. You want

to make sure every day is special for them, I know they go to school

and try to live as normal a life as possible, what else do you do to

make things special? Try to take them on holiday, when we can. Days

out, just try to do as much as we can for them, make things as fun as

possible. Obviously that is not always possible because it depends

on how well they are, and if they are able to get out as well, because

Callum, Jack and Maycee, they get very tired and it is not always

possible, and you have to have money to do these kinds of things as well,

my town has been fantastic, the kids' schools have been fantastic,

they have raised a lot of money for us to do things, for us to be able

to go on holiday and do things. That has helped us in men C, and it helps

ease the pain a little because it helps you forget a little when you

are away, because when you are in the house, and you are behind closed

doors, all you have then it is time to think, and nobody sees that when

we closed the front door. We are left with the hurt and pain the

whole time, but you see it more in the house. When you go away and see

them happy and having fun, it just makes that time a little bit easier.

I can't explain it, it just takes it away for a little bit, because other

ways -- otherwise you are always at the hospital, this year meetings,

constantly there all the time, and it is like a time bomb, that is what

it is. Thank you, Lisa, for coming in.

We will have a lot more of the news coverage coming up. Let's talk about

the EU now. Over the next couple of days

David Cameron will be at a summit in Brussels for what his aides

are calling 'crunch time' He's hoping to get agreement

on changes to our relationship with Europe - including changes

on European integration, business competitiveness,

benefits restrictions Number Ten says they're optimistic

about reaching a deal. Once that deal has been struck,

we will be able to have our say in a referendum on whether Britain

should stay in or out of the EU The summit, David Cameron's

negotiations on Europe and the forthcoming referendum have

been dominating most news coverage over the last few weeks and months,

but how much of it are any Our reporter James Longman

has been to find out. I'm in central London,

asking people what they do or don't I'll be asking them a few questions

and keeping this very scientific poll -

no clue, some idea. Do you know what you

referendum will be about? I don't know anything,

sorry, about that. The EU referendum is about

whether we stay in the European Do you know what David Cameron has

managed to negotiate for us God, I was actually

listening to LBC yesterday. No, it's not to do

with being married? Do I know what he is trying

to negotiate in Europe? Oh, no - you've made me

feel like a right... If it's any consolation,

no one else here knows either. I think the capability

of the Government to veto any laws that are made from

Brussels directly. And I think he is also trying to get

agreement on benefits that are made from

Brussels directly. cap, and a migrants' cap,

but it is not as far as what maybe Do you know what the emergency brake

is? Not on a car?! Not a clue, and I do

politics, but the European argument is really confusing me.

Not the foggiest, no idea. I think I know that. Oh, I need to remember

now! Something about reducing the amount given to defence the two

years? Four years? You did well! Well, we have spoken to 60 people,

and most of them had some idea about the EU referendum,

but very few had any clue about any of the detail

of what David Cameron We always try to explain stories

clearly on this programme so our political Guru Norman Smith is here

to do just that. In a sentence, what is the EU referendum about? The! Put

aside all the heat and noise and arguments, it basically comes down

to this, do you feel better off in Europe, do you feel comfortable

being a European, or do you think, I think I would be all right outside

the EU, I think we are big enough to stand on our own two feet and will

probably prosper outside the EU? It comes down to the very core question

about identity, and where you think we would be better off. That is

basically what it is about. A long sentence, but you nailed it! What is

the emergency brake? Well, it is Brussels speak for being able to

crank up the lever to halt the number of EU migrants coming into

Britain by curbing their ability to get benefits, only it hasn't quite

turned out like that, it has turned out more like a speed bump and a

couple of traffic cones because we will not stop them getting benefits

but make sure they get them more slowly, that is what the emergency

brake is about. You are right to focus on these kinds of questions.

All week we have been trying to look at the facts and fiction because

there is a lot of claim and counterclaim in this argument, and

we have been running films looking at the facts and fiction around

immigration in Europe, the cost of Europe, so today I have been looking

at the Euro facts and fictions about how far we are run by Europe.

The many, the issue in this referendum is simply this: Brussels

means red tape, regulation, bothersome rules and bureaucracy.

Far better for Britain to run itself. So, who is running the show?

Here are some EU row facts and fictions. Let's start with the bent

banana. For many, it symbolises all that is wrong with the EU after it

tried to ban them. How daft, how barmy! And yet it is a you wrote

fiction, there was no ban, only consumer standards to ensure you and

I were not sold damaged bananas, and get the EU does turn out a huge

amount of rules and regulations. In the early 1980s this peaked at a

staggering 14,000 in a single year. Today in Blighty, 30% of British

laws originate in Brussels will stop that doesn't take into account

regulations like the banana one, of which there are many more. That is

eight Euro fact. But things seem to be getting better. No, not my normal

footwear. Take these high heels. If you are a hairdresser, you don't

have to worry about Brussels saying you cannot wear them because they

are dangerous. They considered that but in the end said no to that in

2012, and now a whole load of other overzealous Euro rules have also

been cancelled. Last year only 23 new EU laws were proposed compare to

an average of around 130 a year. So, red tape is being produced, that is

a Euro fact. All fine and dandy, but what about the mass ranks of

Eurocrats? There are a whopping 3600 interpreters and the EU says a

number of civil service in Brussels working for it is 50 5000. But

Birmingham City Council has roughly the same number of people employed

-- 50 5000. It is a Euro fact that Russell 's bureaucracy is big, but

maybe not that big. But what of business? Many bosses complained

that Brussels is costing them a bomb, never mind the time and bother

of it all, the cost of complying with EU standards cost British

business acumen does ?33 billion a year according to a group calling

for EU reform. However, even if we left, British firms would still have

to comply with most of these rules to be able to trade in Europe. It is

estimated 93 of the costliest regulations would still apply, like

those on health and safety, the environment, employment. The total

cost, ?31 billion! So it is a Euro Akrotiri that business pays a lot to

be in the EU, but it is also a Euro fact that business would pay a lot

to be out of the EU. the law what happens today because

there was the renegotiation with Donald Tusk, but it is not over? No,

David Cameron begins the thought process he is trying to get with the

other 27 EU leaders. But there are some big stumbling blocks which he

has got to overcome. Stumbling block number one centres on in a fit curbs

and Mr Cameron's hopes to limit access to tax credits and child

benefit. A lot of Eastern European countries are unhappy saying they

don't like it because it would be discriminating against people who

are working in Britain. The second stumbling block is around the in,

out safeguards, protection for countries like Britain who are

outside the euro from being bossed around by the larger euro group. The

French aren't happy with that because they think we're looking for

special treatment for the City of London the third stumbling block

centres on treaty change. Mr Cameron wants some of this deal to be law

not to be picked. But some other countries are thinking, we don't

want to do that, we don't think it should be incorporated in future

treaties, so there are some high stumbling blocks Mr Cameron will

have to overcome. Having spoken to Downing Street this morning, I would

say they are cautiously optimistic he is going to get a deal. Whatever

happens in Brussels, we will all have the opportunity to vote in a

referendum before the end of next year, on whether Britain should stay

in or get out of the EU. The referendum could be as soon as this

June. Let's talk to two gas who have yet

to make up their minds. Nathan, why are you undersigned did much to mark

people weren't sure personally about the referendum and secondly, they

weren't sure what Mr Cameron was negotiating. So you get muddied

waters and it is those muddied waters you are not sure you get what

used stay or if you leave. There's so much disengagement, we're not

sure what we will get and how it will affect our daily lives, so it

is impossible to make minds up. What are the key issues for you?

Immigration, sovereignty and trade and business and finance, how much

we put in and how much we get out. I am looking at what will affect me.

Immigration, if it is uncontrolled. When I graduate and go for a job,

uncontrolled immigration is a key issue, especially the students.

Finance, if written are putting in more than we are getting back, it is

an issue. We will prosper more outside of Europe, then we will have

to look at it. Have you been looking and listening out for what goes on

with the renegotiation? Will it make a difference to you? I was looking

at the drafted document, the benefits is the big one he is going

for. But so much of it is so hard to take in and understand and make

sense of, that I am slowly trying to seek out more information, but

becoming so disillusioned with it, I am not sure where to begin. Gavin,

why can't you make up your mind? I am waiting to see what Mr Cameron

brings back from Brussels. The larger issue is what kind of country

we want to see children growing up living in. We let in over a million

migrants last year and expect more than half a million to come this

year. Once those migrants are processed and given permission to

stay, they will all be entitled to come and live in Britain under the

EU free movement directive. That is the most important issue, or the

vast majority of people living outside of London, the biggest

concern for the future. We'll the outcome of what the deal is League 2

you making up your mind in terms of whether you think it will have an

impact on immigration or not? Yes, I don't hold out too much hope.

Basically, Mr Cameron has laid out he wants to remain in Europe and has

showed his hand. In which case, the EU has Mr Cameron going with a

begging bowl asking for this and that. But the majority of voters in

the last election was by him to do something about immigration and not

allow it to continue in the hundreds of thousands. Are you glad you will

get a chance to vote on this? Absolutely, this is the most

important vote, possibly in my lifetime, possibly in many other

people's lifetimes. The EU is allowing in hundreds of thousands of

young men from a culture that regards women as possessions and

Western women as easy prey, as we saw from the events of Cologne on

New Year's Eve. Mrs Merkel is not just jeopardising her own country,

but possibly ours as well. Thank you both.

We can speak to the boxing promoter, Kelly Maloney. What do you think of

the comments? They are outrageous, for a person who is a role model to

a lot of people, to make comments like that, is very wrong. I don't

know why he has said that because he is a man who has travelled, supposed

to be a well educated man, running for the Senate in his own country. I

know same-sex marriages are illegal in the Philippines. But in the broad

sense of things, it is a dangerous and very harmful comment. Nike have

ended their association with him, is it the right thing to do? That is up

to Nike, he has tried to apologise, but he shouldn't have made those

comments in the first place. They are offensive comments to a section

of society. Tyson Fury ran into controversy with his comments last

year on women and homosexuality. What is it with boxes and comments.

OK it is two, but is it indicative of an issue? They open their mouth

before their brain goes into gear. They don't think these comments will

come back and hope for the rest of their career, no matter what they do

what they say. Kelly Maloney, thank you for joining us.

A quick congratulations to our reporter who was recognised by the

Royal television Society's journalism awards as West young

talent. They praised his fresh, provocative and creative work. Work

like this. These guys are milking it because

they are Islamophobic 's. Islamophobia band. As a consequence,

freedom of religion and freedom of speech is banned? There should be no

freedom of religion for a religion like that. Do the Muslims in this

area want to take over Great Britain? No, they don't. Do they

feel British? Yes. Are they indicative of Isis? Absolutely not,

no. Congratulations. Victoria is back tomorrow and she will be

speaking to a woman who says she is a bit to shoplifting and she will

look at this ability. Join Victoria tomorrow. I will see you next week.

Have a lovely afternoon. The conversation doesn't end here, you

can get in touch via all the usual ways on social media.