The EU Debate Victoria Derbyshire


The EU Debate

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Between now and 11 we'll be taking about the economy, jobs,

:02:18.:02:20.

immigration, national security, and the campaign itself

:02:21.:02:23.

and what kind of Britain you want to live in.

:02:24.:02:26.

But before all that Rebecca Jones has a summary of the news.

:02:27.:02:31.

Leading Brexit campaigners have claimed a vote to remain could mean

:02:32.:02:33.

Britain has to pay billions of pounds more

:02:34.:02:37.

The remain campaign says the figures are nonsense and claims the UK

:02:38.:02:43.

would have a veto on any proposed budget increase.

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We'll be back live in Manchester shortly

:02:48.:02:49.

to hear from voters and a panel of politicians from both

:02:50.:02:52.

Scientists in the United States have begun using a controversial

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technique to create human organs, by growing them inside pigs.

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Critics have expressed ethical concerns about the project,

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by a research team at the University of California, which involves

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injecting human stem cells into pig embryos.

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The aim is to produce a pancreas suitable for a human transplant.

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Our hope is that this pig embryo will develop normally,

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but the pancreas will be made almost exclusively out of human

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cells so that then, that pancreas can be compatible

:03:27.:03:30.

The body of Muhammad Ali has arrived in his hometown

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The boxing legend died at the weekend.

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His family accompanied the coffin as it was driven in a convoy

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His funeral will take place there on Friday, when former US

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President Bill Clinton will deliver a eulogy.

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At least three people have been killed and nine injured in a crash

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involving two trains in eastern Belgium.

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Some of the injured are critically hurt.

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The accident happened when a high speed passenger service crashed

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into the back of a goods train near the city of Liege

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An eyewitness said two carriages had been completely destroyed.

:04:12.:04:18.

A new study suggests that women who've had breast cancer

:04:19.:04:20.

could benefit from staying on hormone blocking drugs

:04:21.:04:24.

That's more than double the number of years they're

:04:25.:04:29.

The US study found that long term use of the drugs could cut the risk

:04:30.:04:36.

However there are also warnings about the drugs' side effects.

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It's all about balancing the risks and benefits.

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There was an increased risk of bone fractures in the study,

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so it's most likely appropriate for those women at highest

:04:51.:04:55.

Three people have died along the east coast of Australia

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Hundreds of homes were evacuated in New South Wales, Queensland

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More than twenty flood warnings are in place.

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In Sydney, beach front homes have been partly washed away

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by an unusually high tide and big waves.

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An award-winning American photo-journalist and his Afghan

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translator have been killed in a Taliban ambush

:05:20.:05:23.

David Gilkey, who was 50, worked for National Public Radio in the US.

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They died when the army convoy they were travelling

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That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

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Andy Murray's first French Open final ended in defeat.

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He was beaten in four sets by World Number One Novak

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Djokovic, who claimed his first title in Paris.

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He becomes only the eighth player in the Open era to win all four

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Grand Slams and the first since Rod Laver in 1969 to hold them

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Wales ended their preparations for Euro

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2016 on an underwhelming note - they were beaten 3-0 in Sweden.

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Wales' first game at the Championship is against

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Jamie Vardy is expected to decide whether he'll join Arsenal

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from Leicester City later this morning.

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The decision is expected to be made before he flies out with the England

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squad to France for Euro 2016 at 11.30 this morning.

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Mo Farah broke the British 3,000 metre record at the Diamond League

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The double Olympic champion recorded a time of 7 minutes,

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32.62 seconds to break David Moorcroft's long standing

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Good morning and welcome to the programme.

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We're live in Manchester at the old Granada Television

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Studios, once home to Coronation Street,

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but today it'll be home to a debate on the future of the united kingdom

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and whether we should stay in or leave the European Union.

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With us this morning, 145 voters from right across the UK.

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Sitting over here 50 people who say they're going to vote leave,

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sitting here in the middle 45 people who say they don't yet know how

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they're going to vote, and sitting here 50 people who say

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they're going to vote to remain in the European Union.

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Also with us for Leave - Suella Fernandes, a Conservative MP,

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and Jane Collins, a UKIP MEP, they want the UK to leave

:07:29.:07:35.

And for Remain Sal Brinton, President of the Liberal Democrats

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and Geeta Sidhu-Robb who's a business woman who runs

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She's also a member of the "women in" campaign, they want the UK

:07:54.:07:59.

So later in the programme we'll talk about the impact on jobs,

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the economy, immigration and national security,

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but first of all let's start by hearing from some of you.

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Good morning. I can't climb Francis, originally from London, a student,

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part-time low skilled worker and the main reason I am voting to leave is

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because first of all Britain needs its own sovereignty. And the effect

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that being in the EU has had on low skilled workers, which the Remain

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Campaign do not seem to be able to grasp fully. And by that you mean

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competition for jobs? Low wages, competition for jobs, people needing

:09:02.:09:06.

to apply for 500 jobs before they can get one. That is not the Britain

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I grew up in. That is not the Britain I want to be a part of. We

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need to stop being so scared of these tactics. We are better than

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that, we are smarter than that. We know these people are waffling, we

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know the deal, we get it. You want to maintain the status quo, but the

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simple fact is everybody needs to be factored into this decision. They

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should not be about businesses, it needs to be about people. Clem, stay

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there. The gentleman over here. My name is Jimmy and I am originally

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from Lincolnshire and I am a comedian and a musician. I am voting

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to remain because there is more to Britain and the argument let's make

:10:01.:10:04.

Britain great again because we could make Britain for the future which is

:10:05.:10:08.

more culturally diverse and interesting. I am not an economist,

:10:09.:10:14.

I just hear a lot of talk about money all the time and I cannot say

:10:15.:10:18.

whether the economy will be better or worse. Exactly. I am not going to

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say if we remain it will be better, but I like being part of the bigger

:10:27.:10:30.

picture. I like the fact that the UK could remain part of this big thing

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that is Europe and I think instead of making the Great Britain we could

:10:35.:10:39.

make a great Europe. Reality check, my friend. Britain is already

:10:40.:10:49.

multicultural. It is multicultural and has been for the best part of 70

:10:50.:10:54.

years or more. It has already happened. That is different from

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having people coming from outside and undercutting our low skilled

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workers, OK? It is not about we want to be inclusive. Forget

:11:10.:11:15.

inclusiveness. What about British people? What about the low skilled

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people who are not being protected? What about the people who have not

:11:20.:11:23.

got an academic background, who are not innovators? Who looks after

:11:24.:11:31.

them? Excuse me, what are you talking about? This country has not

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protected their workers at all since the 80s and it is only because of

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Europe that we have any kind of protection. This is the only country

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in the world that has zero hours contracts. Fair enough, but the

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bottom line is we cannot have a situation whereby British people are

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coming second. It makes no sense. Britain cannot be controlled by

:11:59.:12:09.

Belgium, OK? Hang on. Take the seat. I would not leave workers' rights to

:12:10.:12:17.

this Tory Government. Without Europe you would not have maternity rights,

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the social chapter, the working Time directive. Don't forget, immigration

:12:23.:12:28.

from outside the EU is more than what it is from inside the EU. It is

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not because of the EU. Let's hear from that and decided. Does that

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kind of conversation overwhelm you or help you? What would you say? I

:12:40.:12:44.

have heard both sides and to be honest personally for me neither one

:12:45.:12:49.

side helps. I am a small business owner from Sheffield, but I am also

:12:50.:12:56.

a youth worker. My youth worker 's side and a lot of the third sector

:12:57.:13:04.

is offered money from the EU. If we leave the EU, while our Government

:13:05.:13:09.

continue to support the homeless? What do you think? Probably not. It

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means more unemployment and the most vulnerable in our society I left

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short yet again. How important do you feel this decision is? For me

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personally it is huge. For my business I would prefer to leave

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because we might lose some of the red tape which we are held back by,

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but for my job I preferred to remain. I have also got three small

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children to consider as well. We have just got over two weeks to go,

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how will you reach a conclusion? Hopefully after today a miracle will

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happen and somebody will give me some answers. America has never

:13:58.:14:01.

happened on our programme! You might be the first. At least today set out

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a plan, if we leave, how will we leave? Will we go with David Cameron

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who says it will take 20 years, or Nigel Farage who said it will take

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two. Or others who say two, but it will take a few more years. Thank

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you, Claire. I am Adam, an estate agent from Warrington. I am really

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undecided. If we leave, will be flurries? If we stay, will be crash

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and burn? We keep getting rhetoric from both sides and I hope today we

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will learn a little bit more about what we will get from the EU or

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staying in the UK. How important is this decision for you? For me it is

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massive, the same as Claire. I am undecided because depending on my

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work life or death pending on my future, it is an issue for me.

:14:57.:15:02.

Things like the economy and the housing market, you cannot buy a

:15:03.:15:08.

one-bedroom flat in London for ?300,000 and you can buy a five

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bedroom mansion in Warrington for that money and the disparity is

:15:12.:15:18.

wrong. We're leaving the UK raise house prices or will they go down?

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How much responsibility do you feel when it comes to this boat?

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Like my friend was saying here earlier on, if there was a vote

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tomorrow, for me, if there was a vote today, I would probably leave

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just for the sheer, let's have a go at it. I'm thinking about my kids in

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30, 40 years' time, how is that going to affect them? That's a big

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decision to have on my shoulders. Well, let's hear from our guests.

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Good morning, Jane Collins. So you have heard a little bit of the

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debate where you're very familiar with. You've heard from a couple of

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undecided people. What do you want to say to them this morning? I

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think, I don't want to give you sound bites. I want to try, as you

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said, and answer your queries today and I think what we have got it look

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at is Britain, the UK, is the fifth largest economy and we are capable

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of standing on our own two feet if we leave the EU.

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APPLAUSE If we leave the EU, it does not mean we will not be trading with

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Europe. We will continue to trade. What business has to be in a

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political union to trade? Since time began, it actually is supply and

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demand. And yes, obviously there needs to be legislation. You need to

:16:45.:16:49.

protect workers' rights etcetera, I know somebody touched on the facted

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that they wouldn't trust a Conservative Government to look

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after workers' rights. Well, let me tell you something. I want to

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Pontefract Girls' High School, the same school as Barbara Castle. We

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are capable in this country... We haven't got a constitution? No, she

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was putting it into the format. Where you vote, on the actual

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legislation, in Parliament, she was putting it there to be voted on and

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she put pieces of work in there. If you can remember Made In Dagenham,

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it was the pioneering start of putting female workers' rights on

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the map. We are capable of actually looking after our own workers. All

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right. Let's hear from Lorraine. You are from the Liberal Democrats, what

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would you say? The point about being in the EU is that there is a minimum

:17:55.:17:59.

standard for employers rights across the whole of the European Union and

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that means if the Government changes in this country, they can't get rid

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of them and that, for me, is absolutely vital and I'll tell you

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why because in the last Coalition Government, the Conservatives tried

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to get rid of employment rights through something called the Be

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Croft Report, but they stopped them and they might try again and

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certainly some of the politicians on the outside used to talk about that

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and they suddenly stopped. I wonder why? Because employment rights are

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vital and the EU protects them. APPLAUSE

:18:35.:18:36.

Good morning, hello. Good morning. Hi, good morning. My name is

:18:37.:18:45.

Cynthia. I'm doing media psychology. I'm from a Commonwealth country so I

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can vote in the coming referendum. However, I am undecided. I feel like

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both sides of the argument are talking about the same things in

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different ways, but the bottom line is they are scaremongering. Now, as

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an international student, there is 300,000 of us in the UK are that's a

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huge chunk to get on either side of the debate, no side is addressing

:19:08.:19:11.

the things that affect us as international students. Today, eel'

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hoping to hear something tangible that addresses the issues that

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international students have in this country. What's the top issue for

:19:19.:19:23.

you? Which country are you from? I'm Nigerian. What's the top issue for a

:19:24.:19:29.

Nigerian student in Britain? The top issue would be, the UK makes it

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quite easy for us to come here to study, we pay tonnes of money and

:19:35.:19:38.

once we are in here, make it extremely difficult on every level

:19:39.:19:41.

for us to remain here and study. Remain to study. If I'm

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unfortunately ill at some point and I cannot hand in an assignment and I

:19:47.:19:50.

get extension to do that assignment, the minute my visa expires I'm

:19:51.:19:55.

expected to leave then pay another fresh amount of money to get back in

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here. It makes it just difficult to be here. So how much easier would it

:19:59.:20:05.

be to just be here and study if the UK leaves or remains? I'm going to

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come back to that and I promise we will. This bit of the programme is

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about the economy and I appreciate the point that international

:20:13.:20:14.

students contribute to the British economy. Exactly. Hello. Hi. My name

:20:15.:20:21.

is David. I'm in the construction industry for the last 38 years. Hi

:20:22.:20:29.

David. I'm voting to leave. I think the EU has outgrown its initial

:20:30.:20:33.

concept that was way, way back when it started and I think the model

:20:34.:20:38.

they've got at the moment is just not workable and I don't see them

:20:39.:20:41.

changing. Europe is very, very slow to change. Everything is done by 28

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nations, it is a committee, Government by committee which what

:20:46.:20:48.

you end up with is a watered down version of everything that goes

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forward. And I think people have mentioned about workers' rights and

:20:54.:20:57.

Glen mentioned about under cutting of British workers. The only way

:20:58.:21:02.

Europe could work for me is if there was parity across the whole of

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Europe in terms of wages, health, education, and NHS. We have got a

:21:08.:21:11.

minimum wage in this country as you know. Is the under cutting of

:21:12.:21:16.

British workers to do with the EU or bosses? I think... Hang on. Hang on.

:21:17.:21:26.

Let him finish. I think it is both really. The EU could force it had

:21:27.:21:31.

they had a mind to. The bosses take advantage of it and the workers

:21:32.:21:35.

follow the money. I started out as a brick layer. I would follow the

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money. They're only doing the same thing. It is human nature. If it is

:21:39.:21:44.

a low wage in Romania and it is a high wage in the UK, they're going

:21:45.:21:47.

to come. The leave vote for you David is to reduce immigration,

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that's the bottom line, is it? No. No, I don't have a problem with

:21:52.:21:54.

people coming to the country. Right. What I have a problem with is the

:21:55.:21:58.

numbers that's coming and the reasons they're coming. It could be

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avoided. If the EU said when member states join the EU there is a

:22:04.:22:06.

minimum wage, people wouldn't come for the money. They would come for

:22:07.:22:11.

other reasons. In terms of the Leave campaigners, do you think they've

:22:12.:22:15.

said something to you which would control the numbers of economic

:22:16.:22:20.

migrants? No, they haven't. I have been disappointed by the campaigns

:22:21.:22:23.

on both sides. Particularly the Leave because I think they could

:22:24.:22:28.

have put a better performance to the public to get them to vote for

:22:29.:22:31.

leaving. I think they've let us down. That's interesting. David says

:22:32.:22:35.

his own campaigners have let him down. Hi, good morning. I'm Craig, a

:22:36.:22:40.

carer and a writer from Luton and I studied the history of the European

:22:41.:22:45.

Union at university. Oh my gosh! You poor thing! No, I love Europe and

:22:46.:22:53.

what I'm worried about is this xenophobic group over here. Why do

:22:54.:22:59.

you say they're xenophobic? They're going to take away our British

:23:00.:23:03.

rights to have visa-free travel, to study in Europe. Craig, can I just

:23:04.:23:08.

ask you, hang on a minute, why do you say if they are voting to leave

:23:09.:23:13.

that they are xenophobic? The thing is their fear of immigration coming

:23:14.:23:16.

into our country, they're not realising... Let him finish. They're

:23:17.:23:23.

taking away the freedom of us to study, work, set-up businesses in

:23:24.:23:27.

the whole of Europe. We are Europeans and world citizens. The

:23:28.:23:32.

whole of Europe is a home to work in the whole of Europe. Right, are you

:23:33.:23:39.

xenophobic, is that why you're choosing to leave? I resent the

:23:40.:23:43.

accusation that voting for leave is xenophobic. It is unfair and

:23:44.:23:50.

unjustified. APPLAUSE My parents came to this

:23:51.:23:57.

country as immigrants with nothing and they worked and contributed to

:23:58.:24:01.

the economy. Everything I have, I have because of immigration. I'm not

:24:02.:24:04.

anti-immigration. I'm in favour of it. What I am against is

:24:05.:24:08.

uncontrolled, mass immigration. And as long as...

:24:09.:24:18.

APPLAUSE As long as we are a member of the European Union, we will be

:24:19.:24:24.

unable to have an honest and open discussion in Britain about

:24:25.:24:26.

immigration and we will not be able to control the numbers of people

:24:27.:24:31.

coming into the EU. I also, before I was an MP, I was a lawyer.

:24:32.:24:36.

Specialising in immigration law. We currently have a perverse and

:24:37.:24:39.

discriminatory immigration system whereby if you're from outside the

:24:40.:24:44.

EU, you are subject to a points-based system and you are at

:24:45.:24:47.

the back of the queue compared to a low-skilled EU migrant with no job

:24:48.:24:50.

offer to this country. How is that fair?

:24:51.:25:00.

APPLAUSE Go on, Craig. So you're telling me

:25:01.:25:06.

that the Polish businesses in Luton, the del la ka at thessan and the

:25:07.:25:09.

Romanian restaurants, they will have to go back to their home country?

:25:10.:25:17.

They can live the UK dream like people that live the American dream.

:25:18.:25:24.

The European Union needs to expand out to create international

:25:25.:25:28.

citizenship. The trend in history isn't to form smaller and smaller

:25:29.:25:34.

national groupings. OK. On the point about immigration from outside of

:25:35.:25:38.

the EU, where we have a points system. We apparently can control

:25:39.:25:44.

immigration from outside the EU as a result of that points system. Why is

:25:45.:25:49.

immigration from outside the EU higher than immigration from inside?

:25:50.:25:56.

Well, it is about control and at the moment... Why is it higher? Our

:25:57.:26:02.

voters can discuss and debate what skills are needed. How people can

:26:03.:26:05.

come to this country from other countries. And people have to fulfil

:26:06.:26:09.

particular criteria. They have to speak the language. They have to

:26:10.:26:13.

have sufficient funds and they have to establish that they satisfy

:26:14.:26:16.

particular points. My question is why is it higher? Well, we have a

:26:17.:26:21.

lot of pull factors in this country. The Living Wage... Hang on. Hang on!

:26:22.:26:29.

I'm talking about immigration from outside the EU where we can judge if

:26:30.:26:33.

they have got enough points and if they reach tier one, tier two, tier

:26:34.:26:39.

three or tier four. Why is it higher? Well, we have managed to

:26:40.:26:42.

control immigration from non-EU countries. It is the EU countries

:26:43.:26:46.

where we have no control and the numbers are rising. That's

:26:47.:26:49.

unsustainable and it places considerable pressure on the public

:26:50.:26:53.

services. Can I ask the Remain side here? If Britain votes to remain in

:26:54.:26:58.

the European Union, how will Britain control the numbers wanting to come?

:26:59.:27:02.

In? Hang on. Hang on. The numbers

:27:03.:27:06.

actually control themselves because what happens is... Not according to

:27:07.:27:10.

people on the Leave side. If you look at the amount of time that the

:27:11.:27:14.

gentleman was talking about, the Polish shops in Luton and a lot of

:27:15.:27:18.

people come here and work for two or three or five years and then return

:27:19.:27:23.

home. What is really important about the people who come to work from the

:27:24.:27:29.

EU in this country is they contribute in taxes ?20 billion more

:27:30.:27:34.

than they take out of the country. My question was how will Britain

:27:35.:27:38.

control immigration if we vote to stay in the EU? Well, the way we're

:27:39.:27:43.

controlling it now actually. I'm a woman. I'm an immigrantment I'm a

:27:44.:27:48.

small business ownerment when we look at how immigration is

:27:49.:27:51.

controlled now, our borders are at Calais, they are not at Dover and

:27:52.:27:56.

that's because we are in the EU. Leaving the EU brings the borders

:27:57.:27:59.

back to Dover for us to have to manage this process. This is why you

:28:00.:28:03.

never actually answer the question that immigration from outside the EU

:28:04.:28:08.

is so much higher despite us clamping down on it. It is not so

:28:09.:28:11.

much higher. But it is higher. You have got to be an EU member and got

:28:12.:28:16.

to have been within the EU. It takes eight years to get that status in

:28:17.:28:20.

Germany and five years in Italy. You could be honest with people and say

:28:21.:28:24.

to those who are concerned about the levels of immigration and tell them

:28:25.:28:27.

that the only way to control it is to leave the European Union? Well, I

:28:28.:28:31.

don't actually agree with that at all. What happens is we are talking

:28:32.:28:36.

about economic growth and it has become scaremongering about I will

:28:37.:28:43.

gration instead. We joined this. Free movement won't stop even

:28:44.:28:48.

because we leave the European Union. Norway still has to allow free

:28:49.:28:51.

movement of people and it is not part of the EU. Hello. Good morning.

:28:52.:29:00.

APPLAUSE Good morning, Victoria. May I start

:29:01.:29:07.

by saying my point is about immigration and I want to agree with

:29:08.:29:12.

the gentleman on the Remain side. I have to say, standing here listening

:29:13.:29:16.

over the past few weeks to the things I have heard have saddened

:29:17.:29:20.

me. As a British born Muslim, the reason why I want to leave Europe

:29:21.:29:24.

because I work as a Muslim chaplain and I study law and I'm training to

:29:25.:29:28.

be a barrister. The nuances of sovereignty and politics are very

:29:29.:29:31.

important to me as a British born Muslim. However, I have to say, I

:29:32.:29:37.

have been appalled by the tactics used on this side to scare people

:29:38.:29:41.

about immigration. APPLAUSE

:29:42.:29:44.

The truth is what they do is, we have to take a Tory MP say a

:29:45.:29:49.

sensible debate. The truth is, the sad truth is, most people talk about

:29:50.:29:53.

immigration are rayest and I'm not saying that people over here are,

:29:54.:29:57.

can I finish? Let me finish. I think he is in the wrong chair. The rise

:29:58.:30:03.

of right-wing anti-Islam in Europe is a disgrace. The truth is, we are

:30:04.:30:07.

hearing scare tactics. People are going to talk to you about the NHS

:30:08.:30:12.

and housing crisis, that's not about immigration. That's a failure of

:30:13.:30:17.

Government in this country to build houses and to, you know, you should

:30:18.:30:23.

be scared, because I was in reality recently. I have been diagnosed with

:30:24.:30:26.

an illness and the people that work in hospitals are people who are

:30:27.:30:29.

immigrants. The NHS would collapse without immigration.

:30:30.:30:39.

When you hear... Hang on. Hang on. When you hear Ukip's Nigel Farage...

:30:40.:30:46.

Disgusting. Suggesting yesterday that women in this country might

:30:47.:30:52.

potentially be at risk with a vote to remain from Cologne-style sex

:30:53.:30:56.

attacks, what do you think? It scares me. It makes me think that

:30:57.:30:59.

the people I'm working with every day, young Muslims, what country are

:31:00.:31:04.

they going to be living in. The Ukip member here should apologise for the

:31:05.:31:08.

statement of her leader. Why are you voting leave? I want to make it

:31:09.:31:13.

clear... Let him speak. Let him speak. I want to make it clear to

:31:14.:31:17.

people watching today that there is truth on both sides and the truth is

:31:18.:31:22.

I want to leave because of legal sovereignty argument. My argument is

:31:23.:31:25.

about sovereignty, not immigration. Everyone who votes to leave are not

:31:26.:31:29.

racist, but there are a lot of people who are.

:31:30.:31:44.

There are people over here asking you to come over. That is what they

:31:45.:31:54.

want, they would like to leave. The reason I want to remain are reason

:31:55.:32:02.

about law. Elected MEPs are not elected. They would probably like me

:32:03.:32:07.

to leave this country. Show some respect. I want to say thank you,

:32:08.:32:14.

but let's talk about the real issues. Immigration has been used

:32:15.:32:17.

time and time again to cover over other issues we need to talk about.

:32:18.:32:24.

Austerity and the problems in England today are not due to

:32:25.:32:31.

immigration. Jane Collins, you are a UK MEP, what did you think about

:32:32.:32:38.

Nigel Farage's comments? They were a reflection on what happened in

:32:39.:32:42.

Cologne. Could it happen here? Do you think it is right? That sort of

:32:43.:32:50.

behaviour happened in Cologne, if it happened in Cologne, it can happen

:32:51.:32:59.

anywhere. Can I speak, please? OK. It was there, it happen, you cannot

:33:00.:33:03.

deny that, so there is a problem that has to be addressed. His

:33:04.:33:08.

comments I do not think were scaremongering, he was just saying

:33:09.:33:13.

it has happened in Cologne, it can happen here. We are getting confused

:33:14.:33:20.

between the difference between controlling immigration and

:33:21.:33:23.

controlling migration. We can control immigration. Lots of people

:33:24.:33:28.

come to this country. We are one of the biggest countries for investment

:33:29.:33:33.

in the whole world, which is why we could be independent because people

:33:34.:33:38.

invest in our country. Migration is different. It is uncontrolled

:33:39.:33:42.

movement, not just of workers, but of people. If Britain voted to

:33:43.:33:48.

leave, how would you be able to control that? Because we could

:33:49.:33:54.

control our own borders, for migration, not immigration. European

:33:55.:34:01.

citizens with a European passport, what would happen when they reached

:34:02.:34:06.

Britain? We were to have stronger control. How? They have a European

:34:07.:34:11.

passport, so they would be able to come to Britain. All countries have

:34:12.:34:18.

border checks. We would want to know who was coming in and out of the

:34:19.:34:24.

country, especially nowadays because we have a problem. We have a

:34:25.:34:32.

security problem. What with the difference be if Britain voted to

:34:33.:34:36.

leave? Because we would take back control of our own borders. How? By

:34:37.:34:44.

border checks. We have border checks now. Border checks, you could look

:34:45.:34:52.

and see who was coming in and out of the country, if they had a criminal

:34:53.:34:59.

record. Hello, I used to teach ethnic minority children, refugees

:35:00.:35:04.

and asylum seekers. The problem of immigration has been playing on our

:35:05.:35:11.

minds since after the Second World War. Can I draw our attention back

:35:12.:35:17.

to history? Britain is the fifth biggest economy? How did we become

:35:18.:35:22.

the fifth biggest economy? Consider the contribution of the countries

:35:23.:35:25.

that we were aligned with in the past.

:35:26.:35:30.

APPLAUSE .

:35:31.:35:40.

Let me finish. We are now fifth? If you want to become the first country

:35:41.:35:45.

in the world, think about how we created the wealth. Also I would

:35:46.:35:50.

like to point out that we became fifth because of the contribution of

:35:51.:35:55.

other countries. Now we want to cooperate with the European

:35:56.:35:59.

countries. When the people from other countries came here, we did

:36:00.:36:06.

not like it. They contributed to the economy of this country, they

:36:07.:36:11.

settled. Now our attention has turned to European countries. Who

:36:12.:36:16.

will be next? Let me read comments from people watching. We have got

:36:17.:36:20.

plenty more time to talk. Do not worry if I have not come to you yet.

:36:21.:36:26.

Julie on Twitter says, when my grandchildren vote, I want to know

:36:27.:36:29.

they have the power to change things through our own parliament and

:36:30.:36:37.

democracy. Julie Willis says, your audience member Mohammed was

:36:38.:36:40.

speaking the plain truth better than anyone else I have seen on TV.

:36:41.:36:47.

Matthew on twitter says, how dare that man called the group of lead

:36:48.:36:52.

people xenophobic, that is disgusting, shame on you. And Max in

:36:53.:37:02.

the north east of England says this is proving to me that the Leave

:37:03.:37:08.

Campaign have no real plan, these people do not even know what they

:37:09.:37:14.

are saying. So, much more to come on all the subjects that our audience

:37:15.:37:18.

want to talk about. We started with the economy and jobs and we soon got

:37:19.:37:25.

onto immigration, but first he is a summary of the news.

:37:26.:37:31.

Leading Brexit campaigners have claimed a vote to remain could mean

:37:32.:37:34.

Britain has to pay billions of pounds more towards

:37:35.:37:37.

The Remain campaign says the figures are nonsense and claims the UK

:37:38.:37:41.

would have a veto on any proposed budget increase.

:37:42.:37:44.

Both sides have been setting out their arguments on this programme.

:37:45.:37:53.

The UK is the fifth largest economy and we are capable of standing on

:37:54.:38:02.

our own two feat if we leave the EU. Employment rights are vital and the

:38:03.:38:03.

EU protect them. Scientists in the United States have

:38:04.:38:10.

begun using a controversial technique to create human organs,

:38:11.:38:12.

by growing them inside pigs. Critics have expressed ethical

:38:13.:38:15.

concerns about the project, by a research team at the University

:38:16.:38:17.

of California, which involves injecting human stem cells

:38:18.:38:21.

into pig embryos. The aim is to produce a pancreas

:38:22.:38:25.

suitable for a human transplant. The body of Muhammad Ali has

:38:26.:38:31.

arrived in his hometown The boxing legend

:38:32.:38:34.

died at the weekend. His family accompanied the coffin

:38:35.:38:39.

as it was driven in a convoy His funeral will take place

:38:40.:38:42.

there on Friday, when former US President Bill Clinton

:38:43.:38:48.

will deliver a eulogy. At least three people have been

:38:49.:38:53.

killed and nine injured in a crash involving two trains in eastern

:38:54.:38:56.

Belgium. Some of the injured

:38:57.:38:59.

are critically hurt. The accident happened when a high

:39:00.:39:02.

speed passenger service crashed into the back of a goods train

:39:03.:39:03.

near the city of Liege An eyewitness said two carriages had

:39:04.:39:07.

been completely destroyed. A new study suggests that women

:39:08.:39:14.

who've had breast cancer could benefit from staying

:39:15.:39:16.

on hormone blocking drugs That's more than double the number

:39:17.:39:20.

of years they're The US study found that long term

:39:21.:39:25.

use of the drugs could cut the risk However there are also warnings

:39:26.:39:31.

about the drugs' side effects. That's a summary of

:39:32.:39:37.

the latest BBC News. Good morning. Andy Murray's first

:39:38.:39:51.

French Open final ended in defeat. He was beaten in four sets by Novak

:39:52.:39:56.

Djokovic, who claimed his fourth title in Paris and he becomes only

:39:57.:40:01.

the eighth player in the open era to win all four grand slams since Rod

:40:02.:40:08.

Labour in 1969 and to hold them all at the same time. Wales were beaten

:40:09.:40:15.

3-0 in Sweden. Their first game is against Slovakia on Saturday. Jamie

:40:16.:40:20.

Vardy is expected to decide whether he will join Arsenal from Leicester

:40:21.:40:25.

City later today. The decision is expected to be made sometime before

:40:26.:40:30.

he flies out with the England squad to France. Mo Farah broke the

:40:31.:40:34.

British 3000 metres record at the Diamond league meeting in

:40:35.:40:39.

Birmingham. He recorded a time of 7.32.6 seconds to break David

:40:40.:40:44.

Moorcroft's long-standing record by a 10th of a second. That is all the

:40:45.:40:52.

Hello, welcome to Manchester with an audience of voters

:40:53.:40:58.

We have a heated half an hour, but in two weeks' time you will be able

:40:59.:41:23.

to make your thoughts known. People here say they feel the weight of

:41:24.:41:28.

that responsibility on whether or not Britain remains or stays in the

:41:29.:41:32.

European Union. The deadline to register to vote is tomorrow.

:41:33.:41:41.

For many of you the most important factor is the impact on the economy.

:41:42.:41:45.

Here is Norman Smith on the impact weather leaving remaining could have

:41:46.:42:04.

on the money in your pocket. The UK does around half its trade with the

:42:05.:42:05.

EU. Still with us for Leave,

:42:06.:43:16.

Suella Fernandes, a Conservative MP, They want the UK to leave

:43:17.:43:26.

the European Union. And for Remain, Sal Brinton,

:43:27.:43:30.

President of the Liberal Democrats, and Geeta Sidhu-Robb,

:43:31.:43:32.

who's a business leader and member of the "women in" campaign -

:43:33.:43:35.

they want the UK to stay Hello, introduce yourself. Hello, my

:43:36.:43:50.

name is Paul and I am a sound engineer. I spent about 20-30% of my

:43:51.:43:57.

time working in Europe. At this time there will be a good few thousand

:43:58.:44:02.

British crew working in Europe. In our industry Britain completely

:44:03.:44:08.

dominates Europe and the reason we dominate is because we move freely

:44:09.:44:15.

between borders. If large, American acts and artists are touring Europe,

:44:16.:44:20.

they come to UK companies. Our industry is about three times the

:44:21.:44:26.

size of Germany's. Would that stop if Britain was not a member of the

:44:27.:44:34.

EU? Yes, it would. If I travel Visa free, we do not pay, if I did not

:44:35.:44:40.

have a visa, somebody would have to pay for those. We travel in a convoy

:44:41.:44:46.

of 15 trucks with thousands of pieces of equipment and we have to

:44:47.:44:49.

list every single piece of equipment that goes through a non-EU border

:44:50.:44:52.

and that would cost time and resources. The jobs we do are well

:44:53.:45:01.

paid and highly skilled, a replacement for engineering jobs if

:45:02.:45:06.

you like. My question is what jobs will replace these jobs? The

:45:07.:45:11.

entertainment industry is a huge part of our economy. Are you saying

:45:12.:45:17.

you fear for your job? I certainly fear for the amount of work I have.

:45:18.:45:21.

Before I came on this programme I spoke to the people who ran the two

:45:22.:45:27.

largest rental companies in the UK and they are all terrified. My point

:45:28.:45:34.

to the man over there, when you said this is not about business, this is

:45:35.:45:37.

about people. People All the people I employ, they are

:45:38.:45:45.

people. The people I work with in my company, they are people. And they

:45:46.:45:49.

are affected by what happens to our business.

:45:50.:45:56.

Geta, you run your own company. Do you echo what... I really echo that.

:45:57.:46:03.

Not only do I employ people across Europe, but across my business. But

:46:04.:46:09.

you would still be able to employ people from Europe? Nobody pays me.

:46:10.:46:13.

Every day I wake up and I have to make money to pay for everyone that

:46:14.:46:18.

works por me and my children, the way I make that money is I go to a

:46:19.:46:23.

market. If you reduce my market, how is that not going to hurt my

:46:24.:46:28.

business? Because of taxes, it is paying the taxes of going abroad. It

:46:29.:46:32.

is paying the levies and the fines or the products that I have coming

:46:33.:46:36.

in. Every time you guys talk about briefing Brexit, the pound drops.

:46:37.:46:40.

That means everything I do costs more. Every time. Hang on. Hang on.

:46:41.:46:47.

Don't shout. Don't shout. Finish the sentence and then I will be with

:46:48.:46:51.

you. That's part of the problem. Every time somebody talks about

:46:52.:46:55.

Brexit, the pound drops. Everything I buy from Europe costs me more now.

:46:56.:47:03.

It is good for exporters you have got to admit. Good morning. I'm Paul

:47:04.:47:08.

Austin. I am a small and medium business owner as well and I'm from

:47:09.:47:15.

Manchester and I live up in the Redcar Cleveland. I employ people

:47:16.:47:19.

from Poland and Lithuania. Our friend talking about his concert

:47:20.:47:23.

company, we're the best in the world. That's why you're employed to

:47:24.:47:27.

be doing that. You do a great job, trust me, you will be OK on that.

:47:28.:47:30.

Don't worry about that. But getting back to the economy, if we look at

:47:31.:47:35.

immigration problem, and go back to the guy talking about housing, on

:47:36.:47:39.

the economy, we have a million empty unrefurbished home in this country

:47:40.:47:44.

right now. If we removed VAT, from the repairs and the remedial works,

:47:45.:47:49.

this would create nearly ?50 billion worth of work. The British

:47:50.:47:53.

Government could do that. They do nothing about the VAT. David you

:47:54.:47:58.

said to, I'm sorry, I've forgotten your name. Paul. You said you are

:47:59.:48:05.

the best in the world at what we do, if we leave, you will be OK. You

:48:06.:48:10.

will get paid. Rolls-Royce is the best. I have got no concern about

:48:11.:48:19.

that at all. Paul, go ahead. One second. With all due respect, mate,

:48:20.:48:24.

you don't know what you're talking about. I have been in business for

:48:25.:48:34.

35 years. Let me finish my argument as to why. I am allowed to make...

:48:35.:48:40.

Don't make an argument about what I'm talking about. I understand what

:48:41.:48:43.

you are saying. It is not about being the best, it is about being,

:48:44.:48:49.

it is also about being the most efficient and financial EU efficient

:48:50.:48:54.

and if you put visas and borders in people's way. You believe that's

:48:55.:48:59.

going to happen. It is not going to happen. Trucks going into Europe

:49:00.:49:05.

will be stopped and tipped and emptied. Thank you, David. You are a

:49:06.:49:14.

Conservative MP. Michael Gove from the Leave side said last week he

:49:15.:49:19.

can't guarantee that people currently in jobs will keep those

:49:20.:49:23.

jobs in the event of a leave vote. How many jobs will be lost if

:49:24.:49:26.

Britain votes to leave? I think we've got to look at the opportunity

:49:27.:49:31.

for increased trade. I'm asking you, I'm going to stop you right there.

:49:32.:49:36.

I'm not going to give predictions about jobs. It is so crucial. It is

:49:37.:49:41.

crystal ball gazing. Hang on a minute. I'm going to pause you

:49:42.:49:46.

there. Do you agree with Michael Gove that people currently in work

:49:47.:49:49.

will not be guaranteed work if Britain votes to leave? I'm not

:49:50.:49:53.

going to make any predictions. I'm not asking you to predict. I'm

:49:54.:49:57.

asking if you you agree... No. I don't think it is about predicting.

:49:58.:50:01.

I think it is about looking at the facts... Why, what would you say to

:50:02.:50:06.

someone, what would you say to someone who might lose their job in

:50:07.:50:10.

the event of a vote to leave? What would you say to them now? Look at

:50:11.:50:13.

the European Union. Look at countries like Greece and Spain and

:50:14.:50:18.

Italy where 50% of young people are unemployed. Do we want to continue

:50:19.:50:23.

our membership with a failing economic agenda? No, let's get out

:50:24.:50:26.

while we can. You can't guarantee that people will continue in work in

:50:27.:50:30.

the event of a vote to leave? What I can say is that if we continue to

:50:31.:50:35.

stay in the European Union, we will continue to be bailing out failing

:50:36.:50:39.

economies and failing euros. We will be continuing to be part of a

:50:40.:50:46.

restrictive trade membership. We have already lost the steel

:50:47.:50:49.

industry and we've lost the coal industry. We have lost loads of

:50:50.:50:54.

manufacturing and heavy industry and fishing. Hello, hi. This is what I

:50:55.:51:02.

was saying so I am at risk of losing my job if we leave the EU because

:51:03.:51:06.

third sector is highly funded by the EU. So I'm at risk of losing my job,

:51:07.:51:13.

but also I help the most vulnerable of society. I help the homeless, the

:51:14.:51:18.

drug users, the alcoholics, the young people and we are at the

:51:19.:51:22.

bottom of our society and are getting tread on deeper and deeper

:51:23.:51:26.

to where they are not going to be helped. So if we leave somebody

:51:27.:51:33.

answer this, are the Government going to fund and match fund what

:51:34.:51:39.

the EU gives to the third sector to help the most vulnerable?

:51:40.:51:49.

Britain currently pays a net amount of ?10 billion a year to the

:51:50.:51:53.

European Union... It is ?8.5 billion the last set of figures. We are the

:51:54.:51:58.

net contributor. If we leave the EU, that money will be able to be

:51:59.:52:04.

diverted to British services and to youth services and to charitable

:52:05.:52:08.

sector and to our hospitals and our schools without going through the

:52:09.:52:11.

EU. To me, that makes a lot of sense. You can control, you can

:52:12.:52:14.

choose and if your politicians don't make the decisions that you want,

:52:15.:52:18.

you can get rid of them. At moment, you can't.

:52:19.:52:23.

APPLAUSE Does that reassure you? No, not at

:52:24.:52:30.

all, being honest. Adult services, adult skills, basic skills for the

:52:31.:52:35.

basic entry levels one and two, of English and maths which primary

:52:36.:52:40.

school age, the Government have cut that funding. Why have we got

:52:41.:52:46.

24-year-old adults plus who cannot do the basic reading and writing?

:52:47.:52:52.

And then the Government have cut that funding. You are on the Remain

:52:53.:52:58.

side. Do you buy the Bank of England, the Treasury's forecast for

:52:59.:53:00.

recession, job losses, interest rates going up and so on and so

:53:01.:53:05.

forth? I think we have just heard from Paul why we might move into

:53:06.:53:10.

recession because if you have to have extra costs, if tariffs are put

:53:11.:53:15.

on us trading with Europe, and I know the Remain side say it won't

:53:16.:53:19.

happen, but the evidence of Switzerland is there are tariffs

:53:20.:53:24.

then profitability goes down and when that happens, jobs get lost and

:53:25.:53:29.

when that happens, there is less tax revenue coming into Government to be

:53:30.:53:33.

able to fund the NHS and the social care and the voluntary sector.

:53:34.:53:38.

That's it the fundamental problem. How many job losses will there be if

:53:39.:53:42.

Britain votes to remain in the European Union? I am not aware that

:53:43.:53:47.

there will be any. Why would there be? It is status quo? Relating to

:53:48.:53:55.

Europe. Relating to Europe. As you heard from this side, you can see

:53:56.:53:58.

the unemployment rates in places like Spain and Greece and Italy.

:53:59.:54:03.

Youth unemployment... Our economies are totally different. Our economy

:54:04.:54:10.

has been growing so quickly and we have created more work, we have made

:54:11.:54:13.

more money and the pound is stronger. We export 50% of our

:54:14.:54:19.

exports go to the EU. So we have become a better economy while we

:54:20.:54:22.

have been in Europe, not that lef had to leave it do to it. There

:54:23.:54:27.

issen certainty because of the stagnation when it comes to growth

:54:28.:54:31.

in the euro area, the high levels of unemployment and the migrant crisis

:54:32.:54:36.

unfolding for a second year? Have you seen floods of refugees coming

:54:37.:54:39.

in here? I'm talking about uncertainty which can affect the

:54:40.:54:43.

economy? The uncertainty that comes from the Leave campaign is much,

:54:44.:54:46.

much I'm asking about higher. The Remain side. No, I think we're

:54:47.:54:50.

Rennesesing. We have got a good agreement that protects us and I

:54:51.:54:54.

think our trade actually continues to support our economy and makes us

:54:55.:55:02.

a stronger country. OK. I'm Marcus and I'm from Sheffield and I have

:55:03.:55:06.

finished my degree in biology. I have got a teaching job over in

:55:07.:55:10.

Germany next year, a lot of my friends and course mates struggled

:55:11.:55:14.

to find a graduate job. What can the Leave and Remain side offer to

:55:15.:55:17.

people coming out to university or just about to start an

:55:18.:55:22.

apprenticeship. Jane Collins, Ukip MEP? What we have got to do is if we

:55:23.:55:28.

leave and I hope we do, is we have to then look to our Government and

:55:29.:55:34.

say, "Right, you are going to invest in our young people. You are now

:55:35.:55:41.

going to... " Let her finish. We are going to say, "We will now put the

:55:42.:55:48.

money into training nurses." Like you've gone through your education,

:55:49.:55:53.

it will be investing in our own country, investing in people like

:55:54.:55:57.

yourself who has gone through an education, who is very valuable to

:55:58.:56:01.

us so we don't lose you and you go abroad. We have got to invest in our

:56:02.:56:05.

youth. Can they not do that now as members of the EU? Well, we don't

:56:06.:56:09.

really have the money do we? Because if you look... They could reduce the

:56:10.:56:15.

foreign aid budget which Ukip would like them to do? Yeah, we would. The

:56:16.:56:24.

figures, it is simple. ?8.5 billion net, yes, a year, just going to the

:56:25.:56:29.

national health which is in ?2.5 billion debt. Add the figures up. If

:56:30.:56:34.

we weren't paying that money in, we could do an awful lot more, not just

:56:35.:56:38.

for education, but for national health and for our social services.

:56:39.:56:43.

That means farmers, so physical that happened, if that ?8.5 billion wept

:56:44.:56:46.

to the NHS that would mean farmers who get more than 50% of the their

:56:47.:56:50.

income from the EU would be decimated.

:56:51.:56:53.

APPLAUSE No. No. No. No. No. I have been in

:56:54.:56:59.

farming all my life. How would they not be decimated? The Common

:57:00.:57:03.

Agricultural Policy was in place before the ECC actually... I'm

:57:04.:57:08.

talking about the fact that 50% of British farmers income come from the

:57:09.:57:11.

European Unionment you said the contribution that Britain makes to

:57:12.:57:16.

the EU, we could put that ?8.5 billion net into the NHS. That's the

:57:17.:57:21.

net. That's the net. Our farmers would still receive, would still

:57:22.:57:25.

receive subsidies, but what we would do... ?2.5 billion in subsidies. ?6

:57:26.:57:34.

billion net. You want to answer our students... I want to answer the

:57:35.:57:41.

students question. There was a crisis for students after the last

:57:42.:57:45.

banking recession. We are coming out of that and graduate jobs are

:57:46.:57:48.

increasing. They need to increase more. The best way for them to

:57:49.:57:53.

increase is to have a solid economy and being in Europe has demonstrated

:57:54.:57:56.

that. When people talk about money coming out and us not getting money,

:57:57.:58:02.

we pay ?5 billion a year in to the universities and research fundful we

:58:03.:58:08.

get ?8 billion back. Why? Because we are so good and European

:58:09.:58:11.

universities want to work with us, we are a powerhouse of research. We

:58:12.:58:19.

mustn't lose that. Hi. My name is a student. I'm a

:58:20.:58:25.

student and I'm from Warrington. I know this Tory Government doesn't

:58:26.:58:29.

care about young people. APPLAUSE

:58:30.:58:31.

We are one of the strongest economies in Europe. A Europe that

:58:32.:58:37.

we trade nearly half of our exports to, a Europe that nearly three

:58:38.:58:42.

million jobs are linked with through trade, jobs have maternity law and

:58:43.:58:46.

protection for agency workers. If we leave, not only would that be at

:58:47.:58:50.

risk plus more, it would be subject to negotiation. My question for the

:58:51.:58:55.

Leave side is, based on the existing models, what relationship with the

:58:56.:59:00.

EU do you hope to have post Brexit because why do you want to relegate

:59:01.:59:08.

Britain to a Norwegian model or a Canadian model? When we have a

:59:09.:59:11.

British model that works. We have got a British model that works. We

:59:12.:59:15.

are outside of Europe. We are outside of Schengen. The EU works

:59:16.:59:28.

part of the EU and many of which are doing much better than the EU. We

:59:29.:59:34.

have no trade deal. We will have a British model building trade and

:59:35.:59:38.

connections, trading with Commonwealth countries where we

:59:39.:59:41.

share history and where we can have equal opportunities. We can do that

:59:42.:59:48.

as well as being in the EU. The Conservative Government, they are

:59:49.:59:53.

just not working they are not doing it for the steel and they are not

:59:54.:59:57.

doing it for us. I'm going to read some comments. "The remain side

:59:58.:00:02.

needs more of these Ukip folks on the broadcast media. It enables the

:00:03.:00:06.

truth and unpleasantness of Brexit to emerge." Pete has e-mailed to

:00:07.:00:13.

say, "I always thought I lived in a tolerant society, but I have to say

:00:14.:00:16.

I'm sad to see speakers of either side of the debate being shouted

:00:17.:00:27.

down rather than a serious debate. " Andy says, "It seems whatever one

:00:28.:00:31.

side says on an issue, the other side knock it. It is not going to

:00:32.:00:36.

get anything sorted! " He might be spot on there. Thank you very much

:00:37.:00:45.

to our contributors. We will be joined by a Labour MP, Yvette Cooper

:00:46.:00:52.

for Remain and Emma who is a Conservative MEP.

:00:53.:00:58.

this is not about business, this is about people. People

:00:59.:01:22.

hopefully things will brighten up a little bit across the Channel

:01:23.:01:30.

Islands later on. A lot of sunshine to come elsewhere as we go on

:01:31.:01:34.

through the day. Out West that sunshine and that warmth will

:01:35.:01:37.

develop some showers and quite heavy and thundery ones. The best of the

:01:38.:01:47.

brightness, maybe 28 degrees, but a bit cooler for the North Sea coasts.

:01:48.:01:53.

Overnight some of the showers will continue, particularly in western

:01:54.:01:57.

parts. It will be a muggy night for most of us.

:01:58.:02:02.

Hello, good morning, welcome to Manchester where we're

:02:03.:02:04.

debating whether we'll be better off if the UK leaves or remains

:02:05.:02:07.

We're joined by an audience of 145 people who all want to know how

:02:08.:02:20.

a decision to stay in or leave the European Union will affect them.

:02:21.:02:25.

Voters here have been telling us they feel it's

:02:26.:02:30.

What about the British people? What about the low skilled people that

:02:31.:02:43.

are not being protected? What about people who have not got academic

:02:44.:02:47.

backgrounds, who are not innovators, who cannot move? This country has

:02:48.:02:53.

not protected their workers since the 80s, not once, and it is only

:02:54.:02:57.

because of Europe that we have any kind of protection. And passionate

:02:58.:03:04.

views on immigration from both the league and remain sides. I love

:03:05.:03:09.

Europe and what I am worried about is this xenophobic group over here.

:03:10.:03:17.

Why do you say they are xenophobic? They will take away our British

:03:18.:03:21.

rights to have these free travel, to study in Europe. I totally resent

:03:22.:03:27.

the accusation that voting for leave is xenophobic. It is unfair and

:03:28.:03:35.

unjustified. But so many people are saying they cannot decide between

:03:36.:03:40.

project fear and project lead. I have been appalled by the tactics

:03:41.:03:45.

used on this side to scare people about immigration. The truth is we

:03:46.:03:56.

have heard a Tory MP say a sensible debate, but the sad truth is most

:03:57.:03:59.

people who talk about immigration are racist. And the debate continues

:04:00.:04:03.

And the debate continues this morning.

:04:04.:04:06.

And, as you'd expect, throughout the programme

:04:07.:04:08.

we want to hear from you, do get in touch in the usual ways.

:04:09.:04:11.

You can E-mail us at [email protected].

:04:12.:04:12.

On Facebook search Victoria Derbyshire.

:04:13.:04:16.

Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:04:17.:04:33.

Over the next hour we'll discuss the campaign itself and if a lot

:04:34.:04:37.

of the scaremongering and negativity is putting you off, plus we'll talk

:04:38.:04:47.

about security and we'll ask our 50 undecideds

:04:48.:04:49.

here if they're any closer to making up their mind

:04:50.:04:51.

First Rebecca Jones has a summary of the news.

:04:52.:04:56.

Leading Brexit campaigners have claimed a vote to remain could mean

:04:57.:04:58.

Britain has to pay billions of pounds more

:04:59.:05:00.

The remain campaign says the figures are nonsense and claims the UK

:05:01.:05:06.

would have a veto on any proposed budget increase.

:05:07.:05:13.

Business owners have been giving us their views in a live discussion

:05:14.:05:21.

from Manchester. People are business, small businesses are

:05:22.:05:26.

people. People employed and they are people and they are affected by what

:05:27.:05:32.

happens to our business. I employ people from Poland and Lithuania and

:05:33.:05:38.

I paid them every morning. Our friend was talking about his concept

:05:39.:05:42.

company, with the best in the world, and that is why you are employed to

:05:43.:05:47.

be doing that. You have a great job, trust me, you will be OK on that.

:05:48.:05:51.

Scientists in the United States have begun using a controversial

:05:52.:05:53.

technique to create human organs, by growing them inside pigs.

:05:54.:05:57.

Critics have expressed ethical concerns about the project,

:05:58.:06:00.

by a research team at the University of California, which involves

:06:01.:06:02.

injecting human stem cells into pig embryos.

:06:03.:06:05.

The aim is to produce a pancreas suitable for a human transplant.

:06:06.:06:09.

Our hope is that this pig embryo will develop normally,

:06:10.:06:12.

but the pancreas will be made almost exclusively out of human

:06:13.:06:16.

cells so that then, that pancreas can be compatible

:06:17.:06:20.

The body of Muhammad Ali has arrived in his hometown

:06:21.:06:30.

The boxing legend died at the weekend.

:06:31.:06:37.

His family accompanied the coffin as it was driven in a convoy

:06:38.:06:40.

His funeral will take place there on Friday, when former US

:06:41.:06:44.

President Bill Clinton will deliver a eulogy.

:06:45.:06:46.

At least three people have been killed and nine injured in a crash

:06:47.:06:49.

involving two trains in eastern Belgium.

:06:50.:06:52.

Some of the injured are critically hurt.

:06:53.:06:54.

The accident happened when a high speed passenger service crashed

:06:55.:06:56.

into the back of a goods train near the city of Liege

:06:57.:06:59.

An eyewitness said two carriages had been completely destroyed.

:07:00.:07:07.

A new study suggests that women who've had breast cancer

:07:08.:07:09.

could benefit from staying on hormone blocking drugs

:07:10.:07:12.

That's more than double the number of years they're

:07:13.:07:17.

The US study found that long term use of the drugs could cut the risk

:07:18.:07:23.

However, there are also warnings about the drugs' side effects.

:07:24.:07:30.

It's all about balancing the risks and benefits.

:07:31.:07:32.

There was an increased risk of bone fractures in the study,

:07:33.:07:35.

so it's most likely appropriate for those women at highest

:07:36.:07:38.

Three people have died along the east coast of Australia

:07:39.:07:45.

Hundreds of homes were evacuated in New South Wales, Queensland

:07:46.:07:50.

More than twenty flood warnings are in place.

:07:51.:07:54.

In Sydney, beach front homes have been partly washed away

:07:55.:07:57.

by an unusually high tide and big waves.

:07:58.:08:02.

An award-winning American photo-journalist and his Afghan

:08:03.:08:05.

translator have been killed in a Taliban ambush

:08:06.:08:08.

David Gilkey, who was 50, worked for National Public Radio in the US.

:08:09.:08:15.

They died when the army convoy they were travelling

:08:16.:08:17.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

:08:18.:08:24.

More at 10.30am. Now the sport.

:08:25.:08:30.

Andy Murray's first French Open final ended in defeat. He was beaten

:08:31.:08:39.

in four sets by Novak Djokovic, who claimed his first title in Paris. He

:08:40.:08:42.

becomes only the eighth player in the open era to win all four grand

:08:43.:08:49.

slams and the first since Rod Labour in 1969 to hold them all at the same

:08:50.:08:56.

time. Wales were beaten 3-0 in Sweden. Their first game at the

:08:57.:09:01.

championship is against Slovakia on Saturday. Jamie Vardy is expected to

:09:02.:09:05.

decide whether he will join Arsenal from Leicester City later on this

:09:06.:09:09.

morning. The decision is expected to be made before he flies out to

:09:10.:09:14.

France with the England squad. Mo Farah broke the British 3000 metres

:09:15.:09:19.

record at the Diamond league meeting in Birmingham. He recorded a time of

:09:20.:09:25.

seven point 32.6 seconds to break David Moorcroft's long-standing

:09:26.:09:29.

record by a 10th of a second. That is all for now.

:09:30.:09:35.

Good morning and welcome to the programme.

:09:36.:09:38.

In just over two weeks' time, Britain, you, will go to the polls

:09:39.:09:41.

to decide the future of the United Kingdom

:09:42.:09:43.

and whether it remains or leaves the European Union.

:09:44.:09:45.

We're live in Manchester with an audience of 145 voters.

:09:46.:10:01.

I was going to say 150, but somewhere along the way we have lost

:10:02.:10:05.

five people. We've

:10:06.:10:12.

now been joined by Yvette Cooper, Labour MP who wants Britain

:10:13.:10:14.

to remain in the EU, and Emma McClarkin, Conservative MEP

:10:15.:10:18.

who wants Britain to leave the EU. Sal Brinton from Remain

:10:19.:10:23.

is still with us as is Jane Collins, Hitler, global recession,

:10:24.:10:27.

uncontrolled immigration, thousands of job losses,

:10:28.:10:33.

even a risk to peace in our time, pretty much every scare tactic has

:10:34.:10:36.

been used when it comes to trying to persuade us how to

:10:37.:10:39.

vote in the referendum. Former conservative

:10:40.:10:43.

Prime Minister John Major campaign of being deceitful

:10:44.:10:48.

and squalid, whilst those who want the UK to get out

:10:49.:10:52.

of the European Union say the Remain Let's spend the next few minutes

:10:53.:11:06.

talking about the campaign and what you have thought about it so far.

:11:07.:11:13.

This is our undecided section. I am Suzanne and a manager with a large

:11:14.:11:18.

corporate insurer. I am frustrated with the whole thing. Politicians on

:11:19.:11:22.

both sides are behaving like children in the playground, slinging

:11:23.:11:26.

things at each other. I do not know how to make a decision and it is an

:11:27.:11:30.

important decision about our futures. At this point we are not

:11:31.:11:37.

getting any information, we are just getting scaremongering and

:11:38.:11:40.

outrageous statements that they cannot back up. This has never

:11:41.:11:45.

happened before, so it is pretty much all guesswork, but they will

:11:46.:11:50.

not admit that. How do they know? It would be more helpful if people said

:11:51.:11:56.

I think this is going to happen, I don't know, but I think this might

:11:57.:12:01.

happen. If there was some honesty from politicians, if they would say,

:12:02.:12:07.

we cannot give you a guarantee, but this may happen, this is a good

:12:08.:12:12.

probability that it will happen. Instead we are getting outrageous

:12:13.:12:18.

statements. In the next two weeks, what is it that will help you make

:12:19.:12:25.

up your mind? Just some honesty. I want one of these politicians to be

:12:26.:12:30.

honest about their opinion. At the moment you cannot trust what they

:12:31.:12:34.

are saying because you know at the back of it they are out for

:12:35.:12:37.

themselves as well and you want some honest, straightforward facts. You

:12:38.:12:43.

may not get that in the next couple of weeks, so what will you do? That

:12:44.:12:49.

is what conflicts me. I want to vote because it is an important decision,

:12:50.:12:53.

but at the moment there is not anything out there for me to base my

:12:54.:12:59.

decision on. If you get to do on the 23rd and you still have not had that

:13:00.:13:02.

information you are desperate for, will you go with your head, heart,

:13:03.:13:09.

what? I am so conflicted at the moment that I do not even know. Part

:13:10.:13:14.

of me says go with lead and give that a chance because all I have

:13:15.:13:18.

ever known in my life is being in the EU. Part of me thinks give that

:13:19.:13:24.

a try, but at the same time it is such a big decision and it is such a

:13:25.:13:30.

risk that it is a lot for everyone as an individual to be making a

:13:31.:13:34.

decision on and at the moment we have got no information to base that

:13:35.:13:39.

decision on, so we'd be lost. Do you feel lost? Absolutely, I am Jules, a

:13:40.:13:47.

property developer based in Manchester and London. Two weeks

:13:48.:13:51.

away from what is going to be one of the biggest decisions in all of our

:13:52.:13:55.

generation that will affect all of the people in this room, the Next

:13:56.:13:59.

Generation and the next, the information that is coming out is

:14:00.:14:04.

pathetic. The politicians really need to get their act together. The

:14:05.:14:09.

leaflet that came to everyone's door, a five-year-old could have

:14:10.:14:13.

read that. That was from the Government, the Remain Campaign.

:14:14.:14:18.

That was not information in that and I want to make a good decision. I

:14:19.:14:23.

feel that weighs heavily on us for what will happen in the future.

:14:24.:14:32.

Emma, a Conservative MP. I totally understand how you are feeling and

:14:33.:14:41.

the comments you have made today. I am a member of the European

:14:42.:14:44.

Parliament and have been for seven years and I have a very well-paid

:14:45.:14:49.

job and I am asking people to book me out of a job because it is not in

:14:50.:15:01.

my countrybest interests. Jools, that is probably an honestly held

:15:02.:15:07.

opinion from an MEP right here. In the end you will have to make a

:15:08.:15:08.

call. Politicians always seem to get out

:15:09.:15:27.

of the mire they get themselves in. Let's talk to Yvette Cooper. First

:15:28.:15:31.

of all, do you accept that both sides haven't covered themselves in

:15:32.:15:34.

glory when it comes to referendum? There has been a lot of shouting and

:15:35.:15:38.

the shouting doesn't help people here. What the real arguments are. I

:15:39.:15:43.

think it is also been quite a lot of debates been the Tory Party and it

:15:44.:15:46.

is felt a bit more like it is about the future of the Conservative Party

:15:47.:15:51.

when it should be about all of our futures and the future of the

:15:52.:15:54.

country. I would like to hear a lot more from trade unions talking about

:15:55.:15:56.

working people and workers' rights and it is good that we're hearing

:15:57.:16:00.

some of them speaking out today. And also I would like to hear more from

:16:01.:16:04.

young people because you know, in the end, this is about their future

:16:05.:16:14.

and what happens to them. In term of everybody's question

:16:15.:16:17.

about what are the facts? Part of the problem here is that we don't

:16:18.:16:22.

know what the trade deal would be if we pull out. What we do know is that

:16:23.:16:26.

it will be worse than the trade deal we have got at the moment. How do

:16:27.:16:32.

you know that? How do you know that? Because think of what it means from

:16:33.:16:36.

the point of view of other European Union countries. Why would they give

:16:37.:16:41.

us a better deal than they've got? And a better deal than we've got? Do

:16:42.:16:51.

you accept that? It will be a worse trade deal than the one Britain has

:16:52.:16:54.

at the moment? How do you know it will be better than the one we've

:16:55.:17:02.

got at the moment? We currently don't have inside the EU trade deals

:17:03.:17:07.

with New Zealand, Canada or the USA, we are not focussing on what is in

:17:08.:17:12.

the best interests of the UK. You are emphatic as Yvette Cooper was

:17:13.:17:17.

emphatic the other way, you are emphatic it would be better than the

:17:18.:17:27.

one we have got now? We don't have to accept either. Please can you

:17:28.:17:33.

answer this question? Will it be better? Emma, please, will it be

:17:34.:17:36.

better than the deal Britain has now with the sni It will. How do you

:17:37.:17:40.

know that? Because the reality is that we will... We run a massive

:17:41.:17:47.

deficit with the European Union. We are a really important market to

:17:48.:17:53.

them. 2.5% of German exports is dealing with the UK. We export 44%

:17:54.:17:58.

of British stuff to them. They export, sorry 7% of stuff to

:17:59.:18:04.

Britain. But the trend is... The trend is 55% is going outside the

:18:05.:18:11.

European Union. Jules, hang on, hang on, hang on. Can you officiate here,

:18:12.:18:18.

please? It is still a lot of each sides, it is just bantering all the

:18:19.:18:22.

time. We never seem to get any hard facts. Do you know what I really

:18:23.:18:27.

want to hear is the probability of something happening or something not

:18:28.:18:30.

happening because we keep, the politicians just keep using the

:18:31.:18:34.

words, "Could and may." Let me tell you all... It is honest. It is not

:18:35.:18:41.

informative because we are on the sixth floor of this building now and

:18:42.:18:46.

this floor could give way at any moment. It is not a proper fact. We

:18:47.:18:52.

need to know the probability of these things happening so we can

:18:53.:18:56.

make informed decisions. Do you think the campaigners have risen to

:18:57.:19:00.

the occasion? No. Not at all. Not at all. I've listened closely to both

:19:01.:19:06.

sides and quite frankly I'm appalled at the backwards and forwards

:19:07.:19:09.

shouting at each other. They are not telling you anything.

:19:10.:19:14.

APPLAUSE When I came here today I had a

:19:15.:19:19.

question to ask and it was to both sides, the Remain said, if we stay

:19:20.:19:23.

in Europe or if we come out of Europe, you're going to lose as a

:19:24.:19:29.

family ?4300 every year. You're going to lose ?1,000 each year on

:19:30.:19:33.

your mortgage. You're going to have to pay ?330 or ?350 every time you

:19:34.:19:39.

travel. Please explain why you get the figures. On this side you say to

:19:40.:19:47.

me, well, we get ?350 billion back if we come out. Billion. ?250

:19:48.:19:56.

million... A week. A week. I beg your pardon. Billion, millions, you

:19:57.:20:00.

know, but at the end of the day, it is a big sum of money. Please

:20:01.:20:05.

explain it. I want to know where you get your figures from. How you work

:20:06.:20:09.

it out and please explain your argument to us because I'm not

:20:10.:20:12.

getting it. APPLAUSE

:20:13.:20:14.

I'm going to both sides the opportunity to give, if possible,

:20:15.:20:19.

just two facts, facts, two facts. OK? Who would like to go first

:20:20.:20:27.

Remain or Leave? Go for it Leave. Facts. I have said before, net ?8.5

:20:28.:20:35.

billion a year. That is what we pay net to the European Union. When you

:20:36.:20:41.

look at our social services, you look at our National Health Service,

:20:42.:20:45.

our education, everything, that money can be better spent at home in

:20:46.:20:51.

this country looking after the people that we have here. OK. Pause.

:20:52.:21:00.

Hang on. Hang on. What is your name? We need a microphone. Victoria just

:21:01.:21:06.

wanted facts. You're not answering my question. The fact is... Victoria

:21:07.:21:12.

wanted a fact. That's a fact. How did you get to the figure?

:21:13.:21:21.

Second fact. So ?8.5 billion is what Britain contributed to the EU in

:21:22.:21:27.

2014. That is a fact. Next fact. The second fact and you're not going to

:21:28.:21:32.

like this fact, but it is a fact that none of the politicians can

:21:33.:21:37.

actually deny, there are no answers to this at this moment in time.

:21:38.:21:43.

There are no guarantees. All I know, all I know, that is a fact, is if we

:21:44.:21:49.

stay in, there will be more legislation, and it is we are

:21:50.:21:57.

sending a mandate for more interference in our own Government

:21:58.:22:00.

and we will get dragged into the euro and this gentleman... Hang on,

:22:01.:22:04.

that's not a fact that we will get dragged into the euro. You've

:22:05.:22:08.

strayed from fact into... Hang on. Shush. Two facts from the Remain

:22:09.:22:16.

side. Facts. This woman asked about why travel costs in Europe would go

:22:17.:22:18.

up. It is very, very straightforward. At the moment if

:22:19.:22:21.

you need emergency care when you're travelling in Europe, you can just

:22:22.:22:25.

go to a hot and then our Government is billed for that care. If we come

:22:26.:22:33.

out, if we come out, we will need to have travel insurance. Because there

:22:34.:22:42.

is, because there is an agreement. OK. OK. OK. Hang on. Hang on. Hang

:22:43.:22:48.

on. Hang on. Please don't shout. Yvette Cooper,

:22:49.:22:53.

two facts, please. We know in the first few years while everything is

:22:54.:22:56.

in chaos and all the deals are trying to be negotiated, we know,

:22:57.:22:59.

there will be a huge uncertainty for businesses. We know a lot of them

:23:00.:23:02.

will pull back on their investment, why would you invest when you don't

:23:03.:23:06.

know what the trade deals are going to be? We know there is a

:23:07.:23:09.

significant risk of going into recession. A significant risk of job

:23:10.:23:15.

losses in the first two years. It is not a number, I can't put a number

:23:16.:23:19.

on and nobody can guarantee you a number, but you can say 100%

:23:20.:23:22.

likelihood they investment will be hit. That jobs will be hit. And that

:23:23.:23:27.

people's livelihoods will be hit in those first few years.

:23:28.:23:31.

APPLAUSE OK, I want to ask people in the

:23:32.:23:35.

undecided section what they think of the quality of those facts. Hello.

:23:36.:23:39.

Hi, I'm a student at Sheffield University. It is hard to believe

:23:40.:23:44.

the facts from Remain when you had David Cameron who said that the UK

:23:45.:23:47.

can survive outside Europe and has come out and said that the economy

:23:48.:23:54.

would erupt as soon as we leave Europe. Jeremy Corbyn isn't giving

:23:55.:24:03.

us his true views on Europe which is he wants to leave. Yvette Cooper,

:24:04.:24:08.

obviously Jeremy Corbyn isn't here, but as a member of his party, he is

:24:09.:24:14.

your leader, what would you say? He has been campaigning over the

:24:15.:24:17.

country. Are those his true views? Jeremy Corbyn has not been afraid to

:24:18.:24:21.

say his views on all sorts of things even when it is controversialment

:24:22.:24:24.

you can guarantee that he would tell us what he thinks and that's what he

:24:25.:24:27.

has done. APPLAUSE

:24:28.:24:33.

OK. Hang on. Hang on. Yes, hello. I would like to react to what the

:24:34.:24:39.

Conservative MP said. She mentioned, she is a MEP. She used the word

:24:40.:24:46.

interference and the word take ig control and that's something that

:24:47.:24:49.

most of the politicians on the Leave side have been saying. In mined I

:24:50.:24:53.

wonder, does this not translate to running away from accountability?

:24:54.:24:58.

Because we say that the EU interferes in things, but how about

:24:59.:25:02.

simple things like Human Rights? The fact that we enjoy Human Rights come

:25:03.:25:06.

from the fact that we are members of the EU. Hold on. Hold on. When you

:25:07.:25:12.

are not satisfied, when you have looked for solutions in our local

:25:13.:25:22.

courts we can take it to the European Court of Human Rights. Yes,

:25:23.:25:29.

they will make laws as they deem fit and they will make law to say suit

:25:30.:25:33.

themselves. Who will suffer? Every day people like you and me. Every

:25:34.:25:38.

day people like you and me will suffer, yes. So that is why we need

:25:39.:25:43.

to remain. We need to remain because if we leave, we're taking a huge

:25:44.:25:45.

leap into the dark. OK.

:25:46.:25:59.

Pause. Pause. That's why we referred to that side as xenophobic. Thank

:26:00.:26:03.

you. Thank you. Thank you. OK. Right, it is coming up to... Ladies

:26:04.:26:12.

and gentlemen, Clem will you stop shouting, please?

:26:13.:26:20.

Thank you. APPLAUSE

:26:21.:26:23.

It is 10.25am. We have got lots more to discuss. A little more about the

:26:24.:26:28.

campaign and a little more about the scaremongering. Also towards the end

:26:29.:26:33.

of the programme, we're going to ask our 45 undecides here if a miracle

:26:34.:26:37.

has happened and if they have reached a conclusion?

:26:38.:26:42.

Before that, Rebecca Jones has a summary of the latest news

:26:43.:26:42.

headlines. Leading Brexit campaigners have

:26:43.:26:48.

claimed a vote to remain could mean Britain has to pay billions

:26:49.:26:50.

of pounds more towards The Remain campaign says the figures

:26:51.:26:52.

are nonsense and claims the UK would have a veto on any

:26:53.:26:56.

proposed budget increase. Both sides have been setting out

:26:57.:26:58.

their arguments on this programme. I love Europe. What I'm worried

:26:59.:27:14.

about is this xenophobic group over here. Why do you say they are

:27:15.:27:18.

xenophobic? They are going to take away British, our British rights to

:27:19.:27:23.

have visa-free travel, to study in Europe.

:27:24.:27:27.

I resent the accusation that voting for Leave is xenophobic. That is

:27:28.:27:32.

unfair and unjustified. APPLAUSE

:27:33.:27:35.

Everything I have, I have because of immigration and I'm not

:27:36.:27:37.

anti-immigration. I'm in favour of it. What I am against is

:27:38.:27:39.

uncontrolled, mass immigration. Scientists in the United States have

:27:40.:27:43.

begun using a controversial technique to create human organs,

:27:44.:27:46.

by growing them inside pigs. Critics have expressed ethical

:27:47.:27:49.

concerns about the project, by a research team at the University

:27:50.:27:55.

of California which involves injecting human stem

:27:56.:27:57.

cells into pig embryos. The aim is to produce a pancreas

:27:58.:27:59.

suitable for a human transplant. The body of Muhammad Ali has

:28:00.:28:06.

arrived in his hometown The boxing legend

:28:07.:28:08.

died at the weekend. His family accompanied the coffin

:28:09.:28:14.

as it was driven in a convoy His funeral will take place

:28:15.:28:16.

there on Friday, when former US President Bill Clinton

:28:17.:28:21.

will deliver a eulogy. At least three people have been

:28:22.:28:29.

killed and nine injured in a crash involving two trains in eastern

:28:30.:28:32.

Belgium. Some of the injured

:28:33.:28:34.

are critically hurt. The accident happened when a

:28:35.:28:39.

high-speed passenger service crashed into the back of a goods train

:28:40.:28:41.

near the city of Liege An eyewitness said two carriages had

:28:42.:28:44.

been completely destroyed. A new study suggests that women

:28:45.:28:51.

who have had breast cancer could benefit from staying

:28:52.:28:53.

on hormone blocking drugs That's more than double the number

:28:54.:28:55.

of years they're The US study found that long-term

:28:56.:28:59.

use of the drugs could cut the risk However, there are also warnings

:29:00.:29:06.

about the drugs' side effects. That's a summary of the latest news.

:29:07.:29:14.

Now the sport. Thank you, Rebecca. Good morning.

:29:15.:29:23.

Andy Murray's first French Open final ended in defeat. He was beaten

:29:24.:29:28.

in four sets by Novak Djokovic who claimed his first title in Paris and

:29:29.:29:32.

he becomes only the eighth player in the Open era to win all four Grand

:29:33.:29:37.

Slam and the first since 1969 to hold them all at the same time.

:29:38.:29:44.

Wales ended their preparations for euro 2016 on an under whelming note.

:29:45.:29:53.

They were beaten 3-0 in Sweden. Jamie vrdy is expected to decide

:29:54.:29:56.

whether he will join Arsenal from Leicester City later this morning.

:29:57.:29:59.

The decision is expected to be made before he flies out with the England

:30:00.:30:06.

squad to France for Euro 2016 at 11.30am. Mo Farah broke the diamond

:30:07.:30:16.

league record. He recorded a time of 7 minutes 32.66 seconds to break the

:30:17.:30:19.

long-standing record by a tenth of a second. That's all the sport. Back

:30:20.:30:21.

to Victoria. What we have heard today is that

:30:22.:30:48.

quite a number of people, particularly in the undecided

:30:49.:30:54.

section feel weighed down by the responsibility of this vote and they

:30:55.:30:57.

do not know what to do and they want to make the right decision, but they

:30:58.:30:59.

do not know what it should be. I'm sure most of us

:31:00.:31:05.

have talked about it Jo-Ann and Stuart Clutton,

:31:06.:31:08.

you're split, aren't you? How long have you been married? 30.

:31:09.:31:23.

Congratulation. It is a sentence! It is not a sentence, he looks like a

:31:24.:31:27.

genial kind of guy, but you are split. To be honest, I am appalled

:31:28.:31:41.

at this morning. I am sorry. I was undecided towards leave, but just

:31:42.:31:45.

hearing everybody, it is a slanging match. Everybody is shouting each

:31:46.:31:51.

other down. This is very important to us. We have a son as well, it is

:31:52.:31:59.

his future, not just ours, and it is extremely important we get this

:32:00.:32:04.

right. I would rather people turn around and say, we cannot guarantee

:32:05.:32:09.

this or that, but not to shout each other down like what has been

:32:10.:32:13.

happening this morning. I do believe you should use your vote. People

:32:14.:32:19.

have lost their lives in the past, so you should use your vote. Quite

:32:20.:32:25.

honestly at this moment in time I do not want to vote because I really do

:32:26.:32:31.

not know which way to go. I am even more undecided than I was before I

:32:32.:32:37.

walked into this room. IDs the kind of you have in the kitchen? Every

:32:38.:32:45.

night. I have to say I have been yes right from the beginning, but today

:32:46.:32:51.

has demonstrated it does become a slanging match and it is an

:32:52.:32:55.

important decision and people should vote. Because the stakes are so

:32:56.:33:02.

high? To reinforce my view I have heard nothing from the league side

:33:03.:33:07.

that would change my mind completely. As your husband tried to

:33:08.:33:16.

persuade you to go to remain? No, we have both got our own minds and we

:33:17.:33:20.

both make up our own minds and I have not seen anything from either

:33:21.:33:29.

I am a self-employed counsellor working in two schools. And who is

:33:30.:33:48.

this lady over here? I am Erica and I have worked in education before I

:33:49.:33:53.

retired. I am a mother of two and children can make their own

:33:54.:33:58.

decisions. We are grandparents to five children and this is a very

:33:59.:34:02.

important decision because we are voting on their future and that is

:34:03.:34:06.

what has convinced me to remain. How long have you been married? Firstly,

:34:07.:34:13.

I would like to apologise, I have been shouting. We have been married

:34:14.:34:21.

for 38 years. It has not been disrespectful, it is purely out of

:34:22.:34:26.

frustration. It is borne out a lot of one-sided arguments were all we

:34:27.:34:29.

are getting is scaremongering tactics and nobody is allowed to

:34:30.:34:35.

reply the facts and when facts are presented, they are dismissed as not

:34:36.:34:40.

factual. The evidence is there and you can research on the Internet.

:34:41.:34:45.

Can I replied, Victoria? You certainly can. Can I just say thank

:34:46.:34:52.

you to the BBC for putting on programmes like this where the

:34:53.:34:55.

public can have a voice, even if we have shouted. We have made a

:34:56.:35:00.

commitment to each other to disagree agreeably. Yes, we have, and we do,

:35:01.:35:07.

each day. So you still love each other? Very much so, even after 38

:35:08.:35:16.

years. Can I raise a question about travel insurance? I'd pay mega

:35:17.:35:22.

travel insurance to travel to Europe because I have got a heart

:35:23.:35:28.

condition. I had a heart attack ten years ago. If I want to travel in

:35:29.:35:33.

Britain, it costs me nothing. But I have to pay four times to travel in

:35:34.:35:42.

Europe. If I want to travel further, it costs me more. But I also have to

:35:43.:35:47.

pay an excess. Staying in Europe does nothing for me. Mary on Twitter

:35:48.:35:54.

says, I am watching your programme today and the behaviour of some of

:35:55.:35:58.

the audience members is disgusting. Sarah says, I cannot believe why

:35:59.:36:04.

articular and decent adults behave in such a manner. Susannah says, the

:36:05.:36:09.

Brexit side seemed to be so aggressive. Score on twitter says,

:36:10.:36:14.

stopped the shouting and bickering, this is a national debate. Rees

:36:15.:36:20.

says, I tuned in thinking I was watching the Jeremy Kyle show! Let's

:36:21.:36:31.

talk about security because that is a serious issue, and let's start on

:36:32.:36:37.

the Remain Campaign site. What is the evidence Great Britain would be

:36:38.:36:46.

safer if we stayed in? We do a lot of cooperation with Interpol and

:36:47.:36:57.

Europol and a lot of people have been deported to stand justice. We

:36:58.:37:05.

also deal with people traffickers and online crime and so many serious

:37:06.:37:11.

crimes that affect us now. If we did not have those partnerships with

:37:12.:37:14.

other European countries, that would make as we can. We have got the

:37:15.:37:21.

heads of MI5 and MI6 and the top police chiefs and the Nato Secretary

:37:22.:37:25.

General have also said we would be stronger if we stayed part of

:37:26.:37:29.

Europe. And what is the evidence that the UK would be safer if

:37:30.:37:36.

Britain leaves the EU? The former head of MI6 himself said it would

:37:37.:37:40.

not impact and we would be safer and more secure when we leave the

:37:41.:37:44.

European Union. The former head of Interpol has said that the Schengen

:37:45.:37:51.

area, it was basically a passport free zone for terrorists to commit

:37:52.:37:55.

crimes and escaped. That comes all the way up to our borders and we

:37:56.:38:01.

would be more secure if we came out. I mentioned earlier about the

:38:02.:38:05.

supremacy of the European Court. It is trying to overrule our

:38:06.:38:09.

intelligence agencies in the actions they are able to take in terms of

:38:10.:38:14.

confronting terrorism and that was undermining security for the UK. The

:38:15.:38:19.

first thing we do when we leave would be to make sure that the

:38:20.:38:24.

European Court could not overrule us in terms of the security and the

:38:25.:38:28.

intelligence they receive, we need to have full control here in the UK.

:38:29.:38:35.

You quoted a former spy chief and a former head of Interpol. You know

:38:36.:38:41.

the body of opinion that says we are safer in the EU is pretty

:38:42.:38:47.

overwhelming. The Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary, five ex head

:38:48.:38:53.

of Nato, former head of MI5 and MI6, the former head of Britain's despite

:38:54.:38:59.

industry, many people with many years of experience protecting

:39:00.:39:01.

British citizens and people around the world, do you accept that body

:39:02.:39:08.

of is overwhelming? I quoted you people who set the exact opposite.

:39:09.:39:13.

We need to have control over our borders to make us more secure. We

:39:14.:39:17.

ask for more control and they say no. We cannot stop the Schengen zone

:39:18.:39:24.

having that check free zone where they can come and go as they please.

:39:25.:39:29.

It basically comes right up to us. That brings the pressure up to our

:39:30.:39:36.

borders in the UK. We are already out the Schengen zone, so we can do

:39:37.:39:41.

border checks on our border. The border controls we currently have in

:39:42.:39:46.

Calais, thanks to the French and the agreement across Europe, will move

:39:47.:39:53.

back to Dover and it harder. That is a bilateral agreement between the UK

:39:54.:39:57.

and France and that will continue, it is not an EU agreement. That is

:39:58.:40:03.

scaremongering. Why would you take that risk? Why would you go against

:40:04.:40:08.

the advice of the top police chiefs whose job it is to keep us safe

:40:09.:40:13.

right now. They tell us to do that, why would we vote to make their jobs

:40:14.:40:18.

harder? We should be able to make the borders secure here in the UK. I

:40:19.:40:24.

am Tom from Altrincham and I study politics at the University of

:40:25.:40:28.

Sheffield. I want to talk about the European arrest warrant. Taking

:40:29.:40:35.

people from one country and putting them into another country is

:40:36.:40:37.

completely against everything we stand for. Secondly, it seems

:40:38.:40:43.

elementary that if we cannot control our own borders and we have not got

:40:44.:40:49.

an Australian style points system in place, we cannot stop criminals from

:40:50.:40:53.

coming into the country. How does that make us safer at all when we

:40:54.:40:57.

cannot control our own borders? It is elementary. We can deny entry to

:40:58.:41:05.

EU citizens who pose a threat to security or public health. Not all

:41:06.:41:14.

of them. We have problems with the potatoes, including Abu Hamza and's

:41:15.:41:21.

daughter-in-law. This is outrageous. We have extradition warrants across

:41:22.:41:24.

the world, it is not just a European thing. I do not get the problem. Why

:41:25.:41:32.

don't we have extradition warrants? If we lose it, that is 7000 people

:41:33.:41:36.

we would not have been able to deport over the last few years.

:41:37.:41:40.

People should have to face justice when they are accused of a crime in

:41:41.:41:46.

a country. They should not be able to flee across borders and escape

:41:47.:41:50.

justice. They should be able to face it. My name is Lloyd and I am

:41:51.:41:58.

currently finishing a PhD in nuclear physics. I do not understand why

:41:59.:42:04.

there is so much concern about security and threats of terrorism.

:42:05.:42:08.

If you look at the statistics, there is a one in 8000 chance you will be

:42:09.:42:15.

hit by a car today. There is a one in 9,200,000 chance that you will be

:42:16.:42:20.

involved in a terrorist attack. Why are we taking such an important

:42:21.:42:24.

decision about something that is so unlikely. The question about the

:42:25.:42:29.

European Court of Human Rights, there is nothing that you are saying

:42:30.:42:34.

today that can attract those statements. I am Adam and I am from

:42:35.:42:42.

Warrington. One of the reasons I am undecided is one of the reasons we

:42:43.:42:47.

have been talking about. It is regarding information. I was a

:42:48.:42:51.

special police constable in Lancashire for about ten years.

:42:52.:42:57.

Every single day I came into work was the intelligence side. We use to

:42:58.:43:02.

get loads of intelligence about criminals from France, Germany or

:43:03.:43:07.

Spain who came over to England. With that stop if Britain left? That is

:43:08.:43:14.

one of my concerns, but I cannot see that being truthful. There is no way

:43:15.:43:19.

that if we left the UK that Germany, France and Spain are going to say,

:43:20.:43:26.

you have left, we will not give you any more information. The argument

:43:27.:43:29.

from the Leave Campaign is they might not give us so much

:43:30.:43:33.

information. They might not give us the volume and the quality that

:43:34.:43:39.

people say we get at the moment. If that was 100% yes or no, I would be

:43:40.:43:45.

on that side. As a special police Constable it was fantastic. We have

:43:46.:43:52.

the best intelligence people in Europe. There is no way that we

:43:53.:43:59.

would not share information. If you have information about a terrorist

:44:00.:44:05.

threat, you will share that with other countries. There is no way

:44:06.:44:10.

that Germany won out a terrorist event is going to happen in the UK

:44:11.:44:14.

and will not tell us about that. I do not think anyone has suggested

:44:15.:44:21.

that. I am Michael from Dover. I just recently qualified as a train

:44:22.:44:27.

driver. One of the point I want to raise is what Yvette Cooper said

:44:28.:44:30.

about the European arrest warrant an extradition warrant. Why can't we

:44:31.:44:36.

have both? Surely it must be in the interest of European countries and

:44:37.:44:40.

member states to have the European arrest warrant and extradition

:44:41.:44:44.

warrant? Why can't we continue with that agreement, but the outside the

:44:45.:44:53.

EU? You would have to renegotiate a whole new legal basis for it and the

:44:54.:44:57.

same with intelligence sharing. You would need a legal framework to do

:44:58.:45:01.

it, otherwise things would not stand up in court. Many of the leave

:45:02.:45:07.

campaigners thinks we should not. You may think we should, and I

:45:08.:45:11.

agree, I think we should keep those things in place, but others think we

:45:12.:45:16.

should not and you would have to go through years of uncertainty, trying

:45:17.:45:19.

to re-establish those frameworks which took a long time to get

:45:20.:45:23.

established in the first place. I do not think we should take the risk of

:45:24.:45:27.

our security of starting all over again.

:45:28.:45:31.

We are going to talk about sovereignty and democracy in a

:45:32.:45:37.

second. Just have a think about what you want to say on that. Regard that

:45:38.:45:41.

European Arrest Warrant, why would we have to start the negotiation

:45:42.:45:48.

again? You have to have the laws would be passed, they would have to

:45:49.:45:51.

be agreed in Europe and they would have to be agreed in Britain. Over

:45:52.:45:56.

the last two years there has been a big debate around Parliament with

:45:57.:45:58.

the Conservative MPs in Parliament arguing we should rip up the

:45:59.:46:01.

European Arrest Warrant. It is not straightforward. It is not everybody

:46:02.:46:04.

agrees. This is just obvious. I think it is obvious. A lot of police

:46:05.:46:08.

officers across the country think it is obvious, but the danger is we

:46:09.:46:12.

would put so much of that at risk if we pulled out. All right, OK. Right,

:46:13.:46:18.

hello. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? My name is Keith. I'm

:46:19.:46:25.

from Middleton just north of Manchester. I want to make a point

:46:26.:46:31.

about democracy particularly to the undecideds here. Economics is here,

:46:32.:46:38.

but it is surely not more important than the principle that under pins

:46:39.:46:40.

everything which is democracy. APPLAUSE? If we vote to stay in, how

:46:41.:46:49.

can we ever talk to anybody again about the benefits and principles of

:46:50.:46:54.

democracy when we are bidsily voting them away to four levels of

:46:55.:46:59.

unelected bureaucratic, nobodies that I don't know in the EU? How can

:47:00.:47:06.

we do that and still claim that we are a democratic country?

:47:07.:47:13.

APPLAUSE How do you respond to that? I have

:47:14.:47:17.

heard a lot about sovereignty in this debate and one of the main

:47:18.:47:21.

reasons that people wanting to leave are state that we should. What's

:47:22.:47:26.

confusing me is why we want to preserve the sovereignty rather than

:47:27.:47:30.

have a great Europe and why we can't have a more democratic EU within the

:47:31.:47:35.

EU? I would like to see, I would like to see is us making change

:47:36.:47:39.

within the EU and making it more democratic. I thought I just made

:47:40.:47:44.

the point... We are only democratic if we are voting our self in this

:47:45.:47:48.

country. If we hand it over to four levels of only one which is elected

:47:49.:47:54.

they can only vote on what the commission proposes, how can you

:47:55.:47:58.

call that democratic? We fought for democracy. We fought for the vote.

:47:59.:48:04.

Our forefathers would be turning in their graves to see us voting away

:48:05.:48:08.

the votes that they fought for. It is absolutely ridiculous.

:48:09.:48:14.

I believe it can be more democratic, but I think we can make that change

:48:15.:48:18.

from staying within so can't we look at how we can make it more

:48:19.:48:23.

democratic inside? I want to check, you are undecided, are you? I am

:48:24.:48:28.

undecided, yes. Hi. Good morning. My name is Jeff and I'm 59 from Salford

:48:29.:48:33.

and I spent 40 years looking after people as a trade unionist. You see

:48:34.:48:37.

want to talk about sovereignty and democracy. Let's talk about

:48:38.:48:45.

democracy, 24% people in this country voted the Government in,

:48:46.:48:49.

which means that 76% didn't vote the Government in. We ended up with a

:48:50.:48:54.

Coalition Government in this country, I don't remember seeing

:48:55.:48:58.

coalition on the ballot form. You want the trade unions to have, can I

:48:59.:49:04.

finish or do you want to keep the empty vessel noise you've done all

:49:05.:49:07.

morning on that side. Go ahead. Sorry about that, but I'm really,

:49:08.:49:11.

really angry, yeah about all the rubbish that's been talked. Let's

:49:12.:49:16.

talk about fact, yeah. Fact, 24% voted a Tory Government in. 76%

:49:17.:49:23.

didn't. Until we oppose first past the post in this country and go to

:49:24.:49:29.

proportional representation, we'll never have a democracy, right.

:49:30.:49:32.

Listen, how many people didn't vote in the last general election? Seven

:49:33.:49:37.

million people who had the vote didn't vote. Don't talk to me about

:49:38.:49:41.

democracy. Yeah. All right. You haven't got a clue about democracy,

:49:42.:49:47.

but as for voting out of Europe, I would readily vote Europe right out

:49:48.:49:50.

of Europe given the chance. Thank you, Jeff. Before we talk to our

:49:51.:50:02.

undecideds again. If you want to pass the microphone around with your

:50:03.:50:05.

final thoughts if you would. My name is Gary. I have an independent

:50:06.:50:09.

financial advisor. One of the jobs thave' got when I'm looking at...

:50:10.:50:14.

Don't make a speech. Is looking at the overall risk. We have heard some

:50:15.:50:19.

interesting things today, but it has been disappointing that the

:50:20.:50:23.

undecideds here have not had sufficient facts, they are not been

:50:24.:50:27.

able to put forward, people on both sides, haven't been able to put

:50:28.:50:34.

forward sufficient facts and I would say the majority of the people here

:50:35.:50:40.

and the undecide have not heard anything much that will actually

:50:41.:50:44.

convince them one way or the other. I think it is very, very sad. Hello.

:50:45.:50:48.

I'm Victor. I'm a retired secondary headteacher. For the last ten years

:50:49.:50:53.

I was in Wythenshawe as a headteacher. We need some measure

:50:54.:50:56.

here there are good points on both sides. I'm in the Remain camp and

:50:57.:51:03.

firmly in that, I voted, I was young once, I voted back in the 70s and

:51:04.:51:07.

I've lived through the European Union expansion. I have seen the

:51:08.:51:11.

good things it has done, clearly, everything has not been good, but

:51:12.:51:20.

certainly, for my sons and for their children when appear, I think being

:51:21.:51:24.

in a European Union that co-operate on economic and migration and also

:51:25.:51:28.

the other measures in terms of workers' rights, and equality,

:51:29.:51:32.

that's what I want to see for the next generation and the generations

:51:33.:51:34.

that follow me. Thank you. Thank you, Victor.

:51:35.:51:37.

APPLAUSE Hang on, we have got a few minutes

:51:38.:51:41.

of the programme remaining and for the last few minutes, let's focus on

:51:42.:51:46.

these 45, just take a seat if you wouldn't mind, take a seat for a

:51:47.:51:49.

second, thank you. These 45 people here in the middle, who are right

:51:50.:51:55.

here at 9am undecided. Some were leaning towards leave, some leaning

:51:56.:51:58.

towards remain, but none had reached a conclusion. And gosh, it seems

:51:59.:52:03.

like days ago now, one of our contributors said they were hoping

:52:04.:52:07.

for a miracle to see if today could help make up their mind. So, I'm

:52:08.:52:12.

going to ask you if you by any chance you have managed to reach

:52:13.:52:16.

some kind of conclusion? If you have, and it is fine if you haven't,

:52:17.:52:20.

but if you have, please stand up now.

:52:21.:52:30.

OK. So most of you are still undecided. That doesn't surprise me!

:52:31.:52:34.

The people who are standing up, would you move to the section,

:52:35.:52:39.

remain here or leave here that represents you. If you go towards

:52:40.:52:42.

the back of the section that now represents you.

:52:43.:52:47.

APPLAUSE Let's hear from some of you. Hello.

:52:48.:53:07.

So you've gone from decided to leave. Tell us, introduce yourself

:53:08.:53:13.

and tell us why? My name is Gemma. I live here in Manchester. I'm a staff

:53:14.:53:18.

nurse in the NHS. APPLAUSE

:53:19.:53:22.

I've mainly been on the fence through the whole debate this year

:53:23.:53:26.

because I've been frightened to death of being demonised as a

:53:27.:53:31.

racist, as a accident owe fob, you know, when you raise the issues

:53:32.:53:37.

about immigration and the effects it has, I can only tell you about my

:53:38.:53:43.

experiences working in the NHS and our services are stretched to

:53:44.:53:49.

breaking point. Absolute breaking point and... Are you saying that's

:53:50.:53:52.

because of the number of Europeans using the NHS? Yes. OK. Can you pass

:53:53.:54:00.

the microphone. Let's hear from somebody who moved from undecided to

:54:01.:54:07.

remain. I'm Jess and a student and bookmaker. The way they have

:54:08.:54:10.

conducted themselves and the way they have gone about things is

:54:11.:54:13.

appalling and I do not want to be associated with that side. I've done

:54:14.:54:18.

a debate like this with 200 young people aged 18 and 20 #25 and they

:54:19.:54:22.

had more respect than all of them put together. You are Across you're

:54:23.:54:32.

appalling. Is there anybody on the leave side

:54:33.:54:37.

who wishes to cross the floor to the remain side and is there anybody on

:54:38.:54:40.

Remain who wishes to cross the floor to the Leave side?

:54:41.:54:43.

I will give you that opportunity right now.

:54:44.:54:55.

Mohamed, are you moving? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:54:56.:55:07.

OK. Mohamed, briefly, briefly. I still agree that democracy and

:55:08.:55:10.

sovereignty is very important, but the way they've conducted themselves

:55:11.:55:13.

and I think socially, financially, agree with this side more and I will

:55:14.:55:17.

have to say I have always said I would vote out, but the way people

:55:18.:55:22.

are behaving and the talk of immigration, it makes me feel sick.

:55:23.:55:26.

Who is still undecided? All the people here. Yes, hello, why are you

:55:27.:55:31.

still undecided, sir? You see, I have been watching this debate here

:55:32.:55:35.

as well as in the media. And to be honest, what I thought from this

:55:36.:55:44.

side was essentially what Boris Johnson was saying. I'm not wiser

:55:45.:55:51.

today. The politicians normally convince very good. When they can't

:55:52.:55:56.

convince you, they scare you. No facts we know today that make up my

:55:57.:56:01.

mind either way. What do you do for a living, sir? I am a GP. I am a

:56:02.:56:06.

doctor. I have worked for the NHS for 35 years. I wanted to hear the

:56:07.:56:13.

NHS is safe staying in or staying out. There wasn't any chat about the

:56:14.:56:17.

NHS. After economy, after immigration, the most important

:56:18.:56:20.

thing which affects the people here is the NHS. OK.

:56:21.:56:24.

APPLAUSE Pass the microphone behind you. You

:56:25.:56:27.

are still undecided. Sir, tell us why? I'm Sean, I'm from Manchester.

:56:28.:56:34.

The debate is too complex for in or out. That's the choice I am afraid.

:56:35.:56:40.

? It shouldn't be because it is so important. In history, this will be

:56:41.:56:46.

a chapter because it is decisive. If it is a 50/50 vote, there will be

:56:47.:56:51.

lots of unhappy people and that will continue like the Scots and it will

:56:52.:56:53.

continue and it will continue. Cameron should have negotiated

:56:54.:56:59.

better. APPLAUSE

:57:00.:57:04.

Hello. What do you need to hear in the next couple of weeks to help you

:57:05.:57:09.

make up your minds? Basically I can only start with here first. I think

:57:10.:57:13.

some, there were some real facts on the Leave side, but I wasn't

:57:14.:57:18.

convinced a in the sense that a lot of the stuff that was spoken about,

:57:19.:57:23.

it implies a lot of immigration issues. That is the catalyst for

:57:24.:57:31.

some of the leaving. That's my perception of it. OK. So on the day,

:57:32.:57:36.

on 23rd June, how are you going to make up your mind, briefly?

:57:37.:57:41.

I'm still open. Very open. I might not even vote.

:57:42.:57:47.

Oh my gosh, really? Wow. OK. OK. I'm going to pause there, ladies and

:57:48.:57:51.

gentlemen. I am going to thank you very, very much for your

:57:52.:57:57.

contributions today. I want to thank our guests as well.

:57:58.:58:09.

APPLAUSE Do give yourself a huge round of

:58:10.:58:16.

applause. Have a good day. We're back tomorrow at 9.15am.

:58:17.:58:20.

APPLAUSE

:58:21.:58:24.

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