06/09/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


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06/09/2016

The BBC's daily news and current affairs programme with original stories, exclusive interviews, audience debate and breaking news.


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Good morning. Welcome to the programme. This morning, facing up

:00:11.:00:18.

to 99 years in an American prison and $9 million in fines, an autistic

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student from Sussex accused of hacking into US government websites

:00:27.:00:29.

and stealing personal details of hundreds of thousands of employees

:00:30.:00:33.

tells us he fears for his life if he is extradited to the States. There

:00:34.:00:37.

is a war on whistle-blowers and activists on going in the United

:00:38.:00:42.

States. War is not too heavy a word. It is barely possible that Gary

:00:43.:00:46.

Wilmot receive a trial in the United States. The pressure to agree to a

:00:47.:00:50.

plea bargain is enormous. And Larry is facing charges in three separate

:00:51.:00:56.

courts. It makes it almost impossible to go to trial. Will he

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receive a fair trial? No. He will not receive a trial at all.

:01:02.:01:07.

We'll bring you an exclusive interview with Lauri Love -

:01:08.:01:10.

who finds out next week if he'll be extradited to the states.

:01:11.:01:13.

Also on the programme, the woman vilified after the death

:01:14.:01:15.

of Baby Peter Connolly - the ex- head of Children's Services

:01:16.:01:18.

in the north London borough of Haringey where Peter died,

:01:19.:01:20.

Sharon Shoesmith will tell us what lessons she believes should be

:01:21.:01:23.

A series of JK Rowling short stories based on Hogwarts School

:01:24.:01:31.

of Witchcraft and Wizardry have just been released -

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and we've got a group of children here who are about to get stuck in.

:01:34.:01:40.

Good morning. What do you think of it so far? It's good. It follows the

:01:41.:01:47.

story pretty well and I cannot wait to read further. We're told that the

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books will take an hour to read so we will come back to the children

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throughout the programme and they will give us their verdict at the

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end. Welcome to the programme,

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we're live until each weekday morning until 11 on BBC 2,

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the BBC News Channel and online. We'll bring you the latest breaking

:02:16.:02:18.

news and developing stories. At around 10:30 this morning,

:02:19.:02:22.

the radical preacher Anjem Choudary will be sentenced for

:02:23.:02:25.

encouraging people to support He could face up

:02:26.:02:26.

to ten years in jail. We'll bring you that sentence

:02:27.:02:30.

as soon as it's handed down Plus, former mayor of

:02:31.:02:32.

London Ken Livingstone tells us "nobody should care" what Keith Vaz

:02:33.:02:36.

has or hasn't been up to with Do get in touch on all the stories

:02:37.:02:39.

we're talking about this morning - use the hashtag VictoriaLive

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and if you text, you will be charged More than 200 people have been

:02:50.:02:52.

prosecuted under the new 'revenge porn' law, according to figures

:02:53.:02:57.

from the Crown Prosecution Service. It became an offence to share

:02:58.:03:00.

private sexual photographs or films of someone without their permission

:03:01.:03:02.

in England and Wales last April. Today's report is the first time

:03:03.:03:05.

cases of this kind of crime have The Director of Public Prosecutions

:03:06.:03:08.

is warning they're part of a growing trend of crimes committed

:03:09.:03:12.

through social media. Of course there was a flip side

:03:13.:03:27.

because it means that it allows us to really trace the evidence, to

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take it and use it in court. So it does also allow us to really build

:03:34.:03:35.

strong cases. Joanna is in the BBC

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Newsroom with a summary The retailer Sports Direct -

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that was condemned over working practices and zero hours contracts -

:03:44.:03:47.

is to improve pay and conditions for staff at its main

:03:48.:03:50.

distribution centre. An independent review

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into its working practices found serious shortcomings -

:03:52.:03:53.

which Sports Direct Staff at its warehouse are now to be

:03:54.:03:55.

put on guaranteed hours The Labour MP Keith Vaz will today

:03:56.:03:59.

be urged to stand down as chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee

:04:00.:04:15.

- after newspaper reports Mr Vaz is due to discuss his future

:04:16.:04:18.

with the Commons Home Affairs He's reported to be facing a vote

:04:19.:04:22.

of no confidence. The BBC understands senior figures

:04:23.:04:26.

on the committee are consulting Commons clerks about what powers

:04:27.:04:28.

they have to force Mr Vaz out. A BBC investigation has found that

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drugs that used to be known as legal highs

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are being manufactured and imported into the UK from China

:04:36.:04:37.

on an industrial scale. The drugs used to be available over

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the counter on the high street but were banned in May

:04:41.:04:43.

after being linked It's now feared that China

:04:44.:04:45.

is becoming a retailer to the world for these

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psychoactive substances. UK police say they're trying to stop

:04:52.:04:53.

the shipments coming in, British Airways passengers face

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delays after an technical glitch Angry travellers complained of hours

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queuing at airports, and some reported they had been told

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the problem was worldwide. The company's apologised

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to customers, saying their IT teams A group of activists

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is disrupting flights The protest, by a number

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of Black Lives Matter demonstrators, The police are there trying

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to defuse the situation. The Black Lives Matter movement says

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it wants to highlight the UK's environmental impact

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on the lives of black people, saying the 'climate crisis

:05:33.:05:35.

is a racist crisis'. One of Britain's most notorious

:05:36.:05:46.

radical clerics - Anjem Choudary - Choudhary, who's 49,

:05:47.:05:49.

was convicted last month of inciting support for the terror group Islamic

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State. He could face up to

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10 years in prison. President Obama has cancelled

:05:55.:05:58.

a meeting with the controversial Philippine President Rodrigo

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Duterte, after he was Both presidents are among leaders

:06:01.:06:01.

gathering for the Association of Southeast Asian

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Nations summit in Laos. Rodrigo Duterte has

:06:06.:06:07.

insulted the Pope, the UN, foreign ambassadors,

:06:08.:06:14.

and now the President Just before flying off

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to the summit, he was asked what he would say to Mr Obama's

:06:16.:06:27.

questions about human rights abuses. I am a president of a sovereign

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state, and we have long ceased I do not have any master,

:06:31.:06:36.

except the Filipino people. Don't ask just throwaway

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questions and statements. 2,500 people have been killed

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in just over two months Most are said to be drug users

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or dealers, but no one Many Filipinos are pleased that

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something is being done about lawlessness on the streets,

:07:13.:07:15.

but many others are horrified They want the international

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community to tell Mr Duterte But the president is having

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none of that. The campaign against

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drugs will continue. Plenty will be killed until the last

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pusher is out of the streets. Mr Obama played down the insult,

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but his staff cancelled to do is to talk to their Philippine

:07:43.:07:45.

counterparts to find out is this in fact a time when we can have some

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constructive, productive Both leaders are now in Laos,

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and both will attend a summit. Everyone's waiting for the next

:08:00.:08:18.

burst of undiplomatic language. A huge forest fire which has

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destroyed nearly 800 acres of land on the Costa Blanca in Spain,

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has been brought under control 300 firefighters tackled the blaze

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which was about 75 miles south-east More than 1,400 people

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have been evacuated from their homes since Sunday evening, with those

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near Javea the worst affected. The Spanish authorities say

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they suspect the fire Scotland's First Minster Nicola

:08:36.:08:37.

Sturgeon will set out her programme Ms Sturgeon has described her plans

:08:38.:08:44.

as "ambitious", and is expected to tell the Scottish parliament

:08:45.:08:50.

that the focus will be on improving Researchers say that taking

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Vitamin D could reduce the risk of severe asthma attacks when taken

:08:57.:08:59.

with traditional treatments. A review of nine studies found fewer

:09:00.:09:03.

attacks needing hospital treatment in patients using the supplement,

:09:04.:09:07.

which is not strictly a vitamin but is supposed to echo the effects

:09:08.:09:10.

of sunlight on the skin. Here's our Health Correspondent,

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Adam Brimelow. Nearly 5.5 million people

:09:14.:09:16.

in the UK have asthma. every day, severe asthma attacks

:09:17.:09:25.

cause on average more than 180 hospital admissions

:09:26.:09:29.

and three deaths. In this review, researchers found

:09:30.:09:31.

that giving vitamin D supplements alongside usual medication reduced

:09:32.:09:35.

the risk of attacks requiring A or hospital admission from 6%

:09:36.:09:39.

to 3% and fewer cases But there was no effect on day

:09:40.:09:42.

to day asthma symptoms. The authors say the findings

:09:43.:09:50.

are exciting but more Although we showed

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a protective effect we were not able to identify

:09:53.:10:03.

whether everyone benefited from vitamin D or whether it was

:10:04.:10:07.

restricted to those with lower And for that reason,

:10:08.:10:09.

we are now doing further research We can get vitamin D

:10:10.:10:13.

from food such as oily fish, eggs and fortified cereals,

:10:14.:10:17.

but for most people the bulk of it is made from the action

:10:18.:10:19.

of sunlight on the skin. UK health officials advise people

:10:20.:10:25.

to consider taking vitamin D supplements in autumn and winter

:10:26.:10:28.

to protect bone and muscle health. But at much lower levels

:10:29.:10:30.

than used in this review. The authors say people should see

:10:31.:10:33.

a pharmacist or a GP before That's a summary of

:10:34.:10:37.

the latest BBC News. In a few moments time we will talk

:10:38.:10:55.

to Lauri Love, the 31-year-old student studying engineering,

:10:56.:11:03.

accused of hacking into various US government websites, the Nasa

:11:04.:11:05.

website, the Federal Reserve and so on. We have already got comments

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from you about his case. This is an e-mail from Peter. Autism or

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Asberger's did not prevent Lauri Love committing this crime. It was

:11:17.:11:20.

not a factor. And along with threats of taking his own wife, it should be

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ignored in prosecuting him. If they have any bearing, which I do not

:11:26.:11:29.

believe they do, then it is in sentencing that these pleas should

:11:30.:11:32.

be considered. This campaign is fatuous and misguided, and a crime

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should always be prosecuted. This tweet from Andrew. Yes, he should be

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prosecuted but he should be subject to UK law, end of. It would not work

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the other way around, that is for sure. That is in reference to the

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extradition was between the UK and the US. Another tweet, don't hack

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into computers. And this from Paul: The expedition legislation is

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grotesque and unfair. And we will talk to Lauri Love in the next few

:12:00.:12:01.

minutes. Throughout the programme,

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we'll talk to our group who're currently devouring

:12:04.:12:05.

the latest series of short stories JK Rowling has released based

:12:06.:12:08.

on Hogwarts School of They are short stories, and these

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children here reckon that they might have got most of the way through by

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the end of the programme. They will tell us what they are like. If you

:12:22.:12:27.

are getting in touch, and your texting, you will be charged at the

:12:28.:12:31.

standard network rate. Time for the sport. Andy Murray, is the favourite

:12:32.:12:40.

to win the US open? Is looking very good. He dropped just five Games

:12:41.:12:47.

against Grigor Dimitrov and he will now face Kei Nishikori in the next

:12:48.:12:59.

match. His route to the final will include a Novak Djokavic. If he is

:13:00.:13:05.

to get there, he is playing better tennis, out of themselves and Novak

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Djokavic. Novak Djokavic went out early in the Olympics, and early at

:13:10.:13:13.

Wimbledon. Murray won the Olympics and Wimbledon, so he is playing the

:13:14.:13:17.

better tennis of the two at the moment. Djokovic might be the

:13:18.:13:20.

favourite but you have to fancy Andy Murray to go on and win a second US

:13:21.:13:24.

open title. A word on Serena Williams as well. She is also

:13:25.:13:30.

through to the quarterfinals, and she has no won more matches at the

:13:31.:13:36.

Grand Slams than any other player. 308 matches. She has surpassed the

:13:37.:13:40.

record previously held by Roger Federer. She had already beating

:13:41.:13:44.

Martina Navratilova's record in the women's game. It goes to show how

:13:45.:13:48.

good Serena Williams is and her dominance of the women's game

:13:49.:13:53.

continues. Wales, after last night, do we think they will qualify for

:13:54.:13:58.

the next World Cup? It was going to be interesting to see how they would

:13:59.:14:01.

play last night, following the incredible success they achieved at

:14:02.:14:05.

the Euros, reaching the semifinals. Were they going to suffer from a

:14:06.:14:09.

hangover? They were not last night. They beat Moldova 4-0 last night.

:14:10.:14:15.

They were always expected to beat Moldova, with the lowly standing

:14:16.:14:19.

they have in the Fifa rankings. This was one of Gareth Bale's two goals,

:14:20.:14:24.

Joe Allen with one of the others. Gareth Bale is no four goals short

:14:25.:14:28.

of the all-time goal-scoring Welsh record held by Ian Rush. And at 27,

:14:29.:14:34.

you have to say that he will surpass that by some distance. Hugely

:14:35.:14:37.

impressive from Wales and Gareth Bale. I think the real test will be

:14:38.:14:43.

when they face Austria in their next match in October. A stern test. And

:14:44.:14:52.

Rory McIlroy, winning for the first time in a while? It has been over a

:14:53.:14:56.

year since he won a PGA title. A significant win, not only with the

:14:57.:14:59.

Ryder Cup around the corner. But interestingly, this championship

:15:00.:15:05.

forms part of the FedEx Cup play-offs, the second tournament out

:15:06.:15:10.

of four. If he was to go on and top those standings, he is fourth after

:15:11.:15:14.

this win, and if he tops the standings at the conclusion, he is

:15:15.:15:19.

in line for a windfall of ?7 million. I am not saying that

:15:20.:15:23.

golfers are in it for the money but that is a significant carrot on the

:15:24.:15:26.

end of a rather expensive piece of string.

:15:27.:15:36.

Is that it for the moment? It is, yes. Until we speak to you again in

:15:37.:15:41.

15 minutes time. Thank you, John. Next, an autistic man accused

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of hacking into US government computers tells this programme

:15:48.:15:49.

he would consider killing himself if Lauri Love, who has

:15:50.:15:52.

Asperger's Syndrome, is accused of stealing huge amounts

:15:53.:15:55.

of data from US agencies including the Federal Reserve,

:15:56.:15:58.

the Department of Defence, American authorities want

:15:59.:16:00.

the 31-year-old to stand trial in the US over

:16:01.:16:04.

charges of cyber-hacking. His lawyers say it could result

:16:05.:16:09.

in a sentence of up to 99 years Lauri Love is here this morning

:16:10.:16:12.

and in a moment we'll talk to him. But first let's take a look back

:16:13.:16:20.

at how all this began. Three years ago, somebody posing

:16:21.:16:23.

as a UPS courier turned up 28-year-old Lauri Love was called

:16:24.:16:28.

downstairs to sign for the package. It was all a deception,

:16:29.:16:33.

a police sting to catch a man now accused of hacking into the FBI,

:16:34.:16:37.

the US central bank and America's COMPUTERISED VOICE: Greetings,

:16:38.:16:42.

citizens of the world, It's suspected Love was part

:16:43.:16:46.

of Anonymous, a secretive network of hackers which targets

:16:47.:16:52.

governments and companies. They tend to happen so much

:16:53.:16:54.

because they want to gain from their hacking, they do it

:16:55.:16:58.

because one of their beliefs is that all corporate information should be

:16:59.:17:01.

in the public domain, so if people are storing personal

:17:02.:17:03.

data and private data, If they think people are behaving

:17:04.:17:06.

badly, they want to that. Two weeks ago today,

:17:07.:17:12.

a line was crossed. Two weeks ago today,

:17:13.:17:15.

Aaron Swartz was killed. Love is accused of being one of four

:17:16.:17:19.

Anonymous hackers behind Operation Last Resort,

:17:20.:17:22.

an online protest which followed the suicide of a high-profile

:17:23.:17:28.

internet hacktivist. With Aaron's death, we can

:17:29.:17:30.

wait no longer. The time has come to show

:17:31.:17:33.

the United States Department of Justice and its affiliates,

:17:34.:17:35.

the true meaning of infiltration. As payback, it's alleged Anonymous

:17:36.:17:40.

broke into computer systems belonging to US agencies,

:17:41.:17:42.

including the FBI, The Americans say they have evidence

:17:43.:17:44.

Lauri Love himself downloaded thousands of staff records,

:17:45.:17:50.

including credit card details. He allegedly wrote to other

:17:51.:17:55.

hackers with the message, There is no suggestion, though,

:17:56.:17:58.

that he made money from this or that But I think it is more

:17:59.:18:03.

the embarrassment issue, more that people want to send

:18:04.:18:07.

a message, saying, if you try to break into our systems,

:18:08.:18:10.

then we are going to come for you. Certainly, there is no reason why

:18:11.:18:13.

anybody who calls themselves a hacker or even a security

:18:14.:18:20.

researcher should be getting into things

:18:21.:18:22.

like Nasa and the Federal Reserve. It's not the sort of thing

:18:23.:18:24.

you should be doing. The US Army Investigation Command

:18:25.:18:26.

said they traced some of the attacks back through an internet address

:18:27.:18:30.

in Romania, paid for by a PayPal After his arrest, he was questioned

:18:31.:18:32.

by Britain's National Crime Agency, but he's never been charged

:18:33.:18:36.

in the UK and investigation Instead, he is wanted by US

:18:37.:18:38.

authorities for accessing US There is a war on whistle-blowers

:18:39.:18:42.

and hacktivists ongoing And I don't think war is too

:18:43.:18:49.

heavy a word for that. Love's supporters claim

:18:50.:18:57.

if he is extradited he could be sentenced to 99

:18:58.:18:59.

years in a US prison. Other hackers in his position say

:19:00.:19:01.

they have been forced into a plea deal, a reduced sentence of ten

:19:02.:19:04.

years or more to avoid In the UK, the maximum sentence

:19:05.:19:07.

for a computer crime like this I think it's fairly possible that

:19:08.:19:11.

Lauri won't receive any trial The pressures to agree

:19:12.:19:17.

to a plea-bargain are enormous anyway and Lauri is facing

:19:18.:19:22.

charges in three separate It makes it almost

:19:23.:19:24.

impossible to go to trial. No, he would not receive

:19:25.:19:30.

any trial at all. Lauri Love, then, is

:19:31.:19:35.

now fighting extradition. What a court hearing in July,

:19:36.:19:37.

his defence team argued he suffers from depression and Asperger

:19:38.:19:42.

syndrome, a form of autism. Lawyers for the US said

:19:43.:19:45.

he was using that as a shield On the face of it, this case looks

:19:46.:19:48.

similar to Gary McKinnon's, another alleged British hacker

:19:49.:19:53.

diagnosed with Asperger's. His decade-long battle

:19:54.:19:57.

against extradition to the US ended in 2012, when Theresa May,

:19:58.:19:59.

then the Home Secretary, blocked the US request

:20:00.:20:01.

on health grounds. Mr McKinnon's extradition would give

:20:02.:20:07.

rise to such a high risk It is now judges who decide these

:20:08.:20:10.

things, not politicians. The idea was to rebalance

:20:11.:20:20.

and extradition deal with the United States that many

:20:21.:20:24.

felt was unfair. The Love case is likely to be

:20:25.:20:27.

the first real test of the new law, The judge will make her decision

:20:28.:20:31.

public on 16th September. We can talk exclusively

:20:32.:20:39.

to Lauri Love now. Good morning to you. Thank you for

:20:40.:20:45.

coming on the programme. Thank you for having me. How do you respond in

:20:46.:20:49.

broad terms to these accusations? I'm hoping if if the extradition is

:20:50.:20:58.

refuse, there has been no evidence provided over the three years. If

:20:59.:21:03.

the forum has changed the law, we can continue the process into a UK

:21:04.:21:07.

court. How difficult has it been then to try and fight this when you

:21:08.:21:11.

haven't been presented with any particular evidence against you?

:21:12.:21:14.

Yeah, I mean, it is difficult to face very serious allegations for

:21:15.:21:18.

three years and not have any due process, ideally in a society, if

:21:19.:21:21.

somebody is accused of something they're charged and they can see the

:21:22.:21:23.

evidence, they can formulate a defence and they can have their day

:21:24.:21:28.

in court. The issue is if I were to be extradited to America, there

:21:29.:21:31.

would be no day in court as was alluded to earlier because I had

:21:32.:21:37.

been made an offer I couldn't refuse in terms of plea bargaining. Why do

:21:38.:21:42.

you say a plea bargain would be coercive? The legal experts from the

:21:43.:21:46.

United States calculated that I could be facing up to 99 years if

:21:47.:21:49.

there are three trials and the charges are presented in a certain

:21:50.:21:53.

way. The Department of Justice then makes an offer where they'll present

:21:54.:21:55.

different charges and they will recommend a lower sentence. The

:21:56.:21:59.

problem is 19 out of 20 people take this offer. I think that maybe

:22:00.:22:02.

demonstrates there is some problems with that system. Why? Because if 19

:22:03.:22:07.

out of 20 people never have a trial, I'm not sure if that's really due

:22:08.:22:11.

process and I'm not sure if it is really justice. Can you get your

:22:12.:22:15.

head around the figure of 99 years? It is quite absurd. Anymore than a

:22:16.:22:22.

few decades, you don't see an end to it and because of the poor

:22:23.:22:25.

conditions in US prisons with people with mental health difficulties I

:22:26.:22:29.

would be at risk of dying in some unfortunate way.

:22:30.:22:32.

Right. That's a serious fear for you, isn't it? Yeah. This was argued

:22:33.:22:37.

in the extradition hearing because of depression and Asperger's and

:22:38.:22:47.

because the US prisons, they're don't provide therapies. You are

:22:48.:22:50.

kept in a small room by yourself. Here in the UK they would attempt to

:22:51.:22:54.

make contact with families and support the person who is at risk.

:22:55.:23:02.

The barrister acting for the CPS during your extradition hearing

:23:03.:23:05.

accused you of using your disabilities as a shield, what's

:23:06.:23:10.

your response? It is upsetting. They didn't have a better argument to

:23:11.:23:13.

make, but it was offensive to the legal experts who are eminent in

:23:14.:23:16.

their field and it is offensive to me that someone who faced

:23:17.:23:20.

difficulties through to mental health for all my life and reactions

:23:21.:23:24.

like that are part of the reason why there is such a stigma around it

:23:25.:23:26.

that stops people getting the support they need. A viewer said,

:23:27.:23:32.

"Put the autism, put the Asperger's to one side. Don't dot alleged crime

:23:33.:23:39.

then." Well, again that's a matter for the court. As was mentioned in

:23:40.:23:46.

the introduction, the reason we're having this conversation is because

:23:47.:23:50.

there was a tragic death of a young man and he died because of that

:23:51.:23:56.

coercive plea bargaining. If the extradition is refused it will give

:23:57.:24:00.

people an opportunity to make progress. Let me read messages from

:24:01.:24:03.

people watching you around the country. A viewer says, "It is so

:24:04.:24:07.

important to understand the effect of stress on people with autism." .

:24:08.:24:13.

Help us to keep finding the answers." Tia says, "Lauri Love

:24:14.:24:20.

should not be extradited. It is so sad he is autistic. There is no need

:24:21.:24:28.

for harshness." Jamie says, "I have 100% support for Lauri Love." Tony

:24:29.:24:33.

says, "Lauri should be subject to British law. The crime was allegedly

:24:34.:24:37.

committed in the UK and therefore, our laws should apply." I think

:24:38.:24:41.

there is a question of sovereignty here. In the UK we have a junctional

:24:42.:24:47.

court system and a good prison system and the US shouldn't step in

:24:48.:24:54.

when they don't like the results. We have an extradition treaty between

:24:55.:24:57.

the UK and the US. Lots of people complained about it. Nobody seems to

:24:58.:25:02.

have been able to change it. It was dined by David Blunkett several

:25:03.:25:05.

years ago. He made comments about it since. That is the way it is. Yeah,

:25:06.:25:13.

it is. Efforts have been brought about to reform it. The US haven't

:25:14.:25:19.

needed to bring any evidence in the extradition hearing. People would

:25:20.:25:22.

say that's absurd that I could be taken out of that country without

:25:23.:25:26.

anything being proven. I hope the reforms will be successful and if

:25:27.:25:31.

the extradition is refused it might promote those causes again. Are you

:25:32.:25:37.

a hacker? Yeah, I would describe myself as a hacker. A hacker uses

:25:38.:25:43.

technology and takes it apart and puts it together in interesting

:25:44.:25:47.

ways. I work as an information security consultant. I hope

:25:48.:25:51.

companies keep their networks secure. Have you hacked illegally?

:25:52.:25:58.

That would be a question for the court. All right. Have you ever

:25:59.:26:05.

hacked on to the banner of Anonymous? I mean part of the idea

:26:06.:26:10.

of Anonymous is to not be affiliated in a name sense. If anyone said they

:26:11.:26:14.

were a member of Anonymous they missed the point.

:26:15.:26:18.

People will read into that answer what they will. In terms of the

:26:19.:26:23.

three years that this has been hanging over you, what impact has it

:26:24.:26:28.

had on you? What impact has it had on your family, your parents? I

:26:29.:26:33.

really feel for my parents who have to worry and they have the stress of

:26:34.:26:38.

this. For myself, I have eczema and I scratch my face and it bleeds and

:26:39.:26:44.

I will have infections and I don't get a good night's sleep often.

:26:45.:26:47.

Stress compounds other immune system problems. So it would be nice to

:26:48.:26:53.

have less stress, but this is an important process that may

:26:54.:26:56.

potentially result in some good so that keeps me going.

:26:57.:27:00.

Do you have any steer from your legal team about what the outcome of

:27:01.:27:04.

the extradition hearing will be? We will hear next week. Presumably

:27:05.:27:11.

you're hopeful, of course... I'm guardedly optimistic on the basis

:27:12.:27:17.

the US didn't present a case. We had 14 expert witnesses on US prison

:27:18.:27:21.

conditions, on mental health and on the sentencing disparity between the

:27:22.:27:25.

UK and the US. Not very much effort was made apart from by the barrister

:27:26.:27:29.

to cast doubt on my mental health conditions. So I would hope that the

:27:30.:27:34.

judge has enough to make the correct decision to refuse the extradition.

:27:35.:27:40.

This tweet from a viewer, "The extradition treaty with the US is

:27:41.:27:44.

one-sided. Their sentencing is ridiculous, but I don't think

:27:45.:27:52.

Asperger's is an excuse. But have a trial in England." Ian says, "If the

:27:53.:27:58.

hacker has broken UK law, prosecute. If not, do nothing." Another viewer

:27:59.:28:03.

says, "I don't think he should face extradition, the protection of the

:28:04.:28:05.

various sites should be increased and if he can get in them, so can

:28:06.:28:13.

others." ." An Aoun mus text, "Mr Love should be treated with

:28:14.:28:16.

compassion because he is ill. He should be involved in computer

:28:17.:28:21.

security." You are? If the networks were compromised, that's a problem

:28:22.:28:25.

for America and it is a problem that can't be solved by putting people in

:28:26.:28:29.

small boxes, it is an engineering problem and solved by increasing

:28:30.:28:34.

people in computer security and this is something I'm doing, it is

:28:35.:28:39.

helping the next generation to have the skills. Hilary tweets, "I'm

:28:40.:28:46.

sorry, autism is no defence against wrongdoing." Bill says, "Guilty or

:28:47.:28:51.

not, the potential sentence is enough to keep Lauri here." Thank

:28:52.:28:57.

you for coming on the programme. Thank you.

:28:58.:29:00.

Your views are welcome on the case of Lauri Love. If you want to

:29:01.:29:05.

e-mail, or you can tweet. Still to come, the death of Baby P,

:29:06.:29:10.

Peter Connelly, sparked outrage leading to the then Director

:29:11.:29:12.

of Children's Services in Haringey, Sharon Shoesmith,

:29:13.:29:15.

being sacked live on television. We'll talk to her later

:29:16.:29:22.

in the programme about the lessons she thinks should be learned

:29:23.:29:25.

from the tragedy. We'll discuss the allegations

:29:26.:29:29.

surrounding Keith Vaz He's still fighting for his

:29:30.:29:40.

political life. We will get the views of the former Mayor of London,

:29:41.:29:44.

Ken Livingstone. Here's Joanne in the BBC Newsroom

:29:45.:29:49.

with a summary of today's news. More than 200 people have

:29:50.:29:51.

been prosecuted under the new "revenge porn" law,

:29:52.:29:56.

according to figures It became an offence to share

:29:57.:29:58.

private sexual photographs or films of someone without their permission

:29:59.:30:02.

in England and Wales last April. Today's report is the first time

:30:03.:30:05.

cases of this kind of crime have The retailer, Sports Direct,

:30:06.:30:08.

that was condemned over working practices and zero hours contracts -

:30:09.:30:17.

is to improve pay and conditions for staff at its main

:30:18.:30:20.

distribution centre. An independent review

:30:21.:30:21.

into its working practices found serious shortcomings

:30:22.:30:23.

which Sports Direct Staff at its warehouse are now to be

:30:24.:30:25.

put on guaranteed hours The Labour MP Keith Vaz will today

:30:26.:30:29.

be urged to stand down as chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee

:30:30.:30:36.

- after newspaper reports with the Commons Home Affairs

:30:37.:30:38.

Committee this afternoon. He's reported to be facing a vote

:30:39.:30:44.

of no confidence. The BBC understands senior figures

:30:45.:30:47.

on the committee are consulting Commons clerks about what powers

:30:48.:30:49.

they have to force Mr Vaz out. British Airways says it's checking

:30:50.:30:57.

in customers at Heathrow and Gatwick Airport as normal

:30:58.:31:01.

now after an earlier However it said it could take longer

:31:02.:31:03.

than usual and urged customers Angry travellers complained of hours

:31:04.:31:07.

queuing at airports. A group of activists

:31:08.:31:13.

is disrupting flights The protest, by a number

:31:14.:31:15.

of Black Lives Matter demonstrators, The police are there trying

:31:16.:31:19.

to defuse the situation. The Black Lives Matter movement says

:31:20.:31:22.

it wants to highlight the UK's environmental impact

:31:23.:31:25.

on the lives of black people, saying the 'climate crisis

:31:26.:31:27.

is a racist crisis'. One of Britain's most notorious

:31:28.:31:43.

radical clerics - Anjem Choudary - Choudhary, who's 49,

:31:44.:31:45.

was convicted last month of inciting support for the terror group Islamic

:31:46.:31:49.

State. He could face up to

:31:50.:31:51.

10 years in prison. A British man wanted in the US

:31:52.:31:53.

for allegedly hacking into government computers has told

:31:54.:31:55.

this programme he fears for his life Lauri Love, who has Asperger's

:31:56.:31:58.

syndrome, could face trials in three different states

:31:59.:32:02.

and is accused of hacking into the FBI, the US central

:32:03.:32:04.

bank and the country's He told the Victoria Derbyshire

:32:05.:32:07.

programme he is worried A judge is due to announce next week

:32:08.:32:12.

if he should be extradited. President Obama has

:32:13.:32:21.

cancelled a meeting with his Rodrigo Duterte,

:32:22.:32:23.

after a public insult. Mr Duterte said he would call

:32:24.:32:27.

Mr Obama a "son of a whore", if the US President raised the issue

:32:28.:32:30.

of the sanctioned murders of alleged That's a summary of

:32:31.:32:33.

the latest BBC News. In a mad. Johnny says, if you do not

:32:34.:32:53.

want to do that time, don't do the crime. It's simple. Scotland has

:32:54.:32:59.

your back, that is from someone who does not leave their name. This

:33:00.:33:03.

tweet, he should receive the thanks for showing the weaknesses of the US

:33:04.:33:10.

IT systems. Mitch sends a long text. The guest who hacked into Nasa

:33:11.:33:15.

websites is saying it is not his fault because he has mental health

:33:16.:33:19.

issues. This seems to be the latest excuse used by people. The young man

:33:20.:33:22.

who attempted to kill Donald Trump city should be let off because he

:33:23.:33:27.

also has mental health issues. Both of these men are smart enough to get

:33:28.:33:30.

past some of the harshest security measures anywhere and the carried

:33:31.:33:35.

out their crime with planning, thought and understanding of the

:33:36.:33:39.

environment they were getting into. Jay says, regardless of his views on

:33:40.:33:44.

data security, this guy could US national security risk and he should

:33:45.:33:49.

be extradited and prosecuted there. I have mental health issues and I am

:33:50.:33:52.

sick of people using them as an excuse to get away with crime. Linda

:33:53.:33:57.

says, he has an amazing talent and it should be used for good, not

:33:58.:33:59.

abused and punished. Here's some sport now

:34:00.:34:00.

with John Watson. Andy Murray's incredible run of form

:34:01.:34:03.

continues as he reached He dropped just five games

:34:04.:34:05.

against Grigor Dimitrov He faces Kei Nishikori next -

:34:06.:34:10.

as he looks to win a second US Open Crown, adding

:34:11.:34:16.

to the Olympic Gold and Wimbledon Serena Williams has now won more

:34:17.:34:18.

grand slam matches than any other Her victory against Yaraslova

:34:19.:34:31.

Shvedova is her 308th grand slam win moving her past

:34:32.:34:35.

Roger Federer's record Gareth Bale is just four

:34:36.:34:36.

goals short of Wales' In their opening match of World Cup

:34:37.:34:47.

qualification last night he scored twice as Wales

:34:48.:34:55.

beat Moldova 4-0. It was their first competitive match

:34:56.:34:58.

since that incredible run And no signs of a post

:34:59.:35:00.

Euro hangover. And Rory McIlroy won his first PGA

:35:01.:35:06.

Tour title in over a year He came from six shots back in his

:35:07.:35:10.

final round to win by two shots. He's now fourth in the FedEx

:35:11.:35:14.

Cup play-offs. Were he to top that

:35:15.:35:29.

after the remaining two tournaments, The magic isn't over for JK

:35:30.:35:34.

Rowling - she may be done with Harry Potter,

:35:35.:35:39.

but she isn't done with Hogwarts School

:35:40.:35:40.

of Witchcraft and Wizardry. She is delving back

:35:41.:35:42.

into the wizarding world for a series of short ebooks

:35:43.:35:44.

with new and old stories about some The e-books, each about 10,000 words

:35:45.:35:47.

long, are released today. The idea is that you should be able

:35:48.:35:54.

to get through them in about an hour.

:35:55.:35:55.

How much of the Harry Potter magic will they contain?

:35:56.:36:00.

I've got a real treat for you today. You are a great wizard, Harry.

:36:01.:36:08.

Welcome to halt warts. -- Hogwarts. With us this morning some very

:36:09.:36:17.

excited people in the studio already Let's talk now to 7 year olds Helen,

:36:18.:36:19.

Bea and Lottie and 14 year old Kit - all Harry Potter fans who will be

:36:20.:36:25.

here until the end of the programme. Hello, all of you. How are you?

:36:26.:36:32.

Thank you for coming on the programme. So first of all, how much

:36:33.:36:38.

do you love Harry Potter? I love it a lot. I have played all the Games

:36:39.:36:42.

and watched all the movies and read quite a few of the books. Is there a

:36:43.:36:49.

standout film or book? They each have their own good one.

:36:50.:36:53.

Philosophers Stone is the best for me. And deathly Hallows, part one,

:36:54.:37:02.

that is the best movie. What about you, what do you think? I'm not

:37:03.:37:08.

really a big fan of it but I do like it. That is interesting. Do you have

:37:09.:37:17.

a favourite character? I have three. Harry Potter. Hermione and Ron. Do

:37:18.:37:26.

you like Ron Weasley? Are you sure? Not that bothered. Is he a bit silly

:37:27.:37:33.

for you? Kind of. Favourite characters? I am a big fan of

:37:34.:37:44.

Hermione. And what about you, Helen? Hermione. Bound to be. Of the three

:37:45.:37:53.

books released today, have you the title is handy? Do you know what it

:37:54.:37:58.

is called? Poltergeist and something? Power, politics and pesky

:37:59.:38:10.

poltergeists. And how is it going so far? Are you learning anything new?

:38:11.:38:20.

I am reading an incomplete and unreliable guide to halt -- to

:38:21.:38:27.

Hogwarts, which explores a lot of the hidden things not in the books.

:38:28.:38:38.

The form room, this book explains what is in there and how you get in

:38:39.:38:42.

there. How do you get into the Hufflepuff room? You go up the

:38:43.:38:48.

stairs and then you have to get the pass code. You go down through the

:38:49.:38:53.

kitchens, and then you have to enter a code on one of the barrels and

:38:54.:38:57.

touch the underneath. And then you will always be asked a random

:38:58.:39:00.

question, depending on who is entering. That is new info. In terms

:39:01.:39:13.

of Harry Potter aficionados, that is interesting new info. There are a

:39:14.:39:17.

lot of new things that I think Harry Potter fans will appreciate. How far

:39:18.:39:21.

are you through the one you are reading? 38%. 16%. How are you

:39:22.:39:38.

doing? 30%. OK. And kids, I think you might finish it before the end

:39:39.:39:39.

of the programme. Carry on reading. We'll keep going back to Helen,

:39:40.:39:51.

Bea, Lottie and Kit throughout the programme

:39:52.:39:53.

as they read the books. Coming up, the death of Baby P,

:39:54.:39:55.

who suffered dozens of injuries at the hands of his parents

:39:56.:39:58.

while being repeatedly seen by people that

:39:59.:40:00.

should have helped him We will hear from her on what

:40:01.:40:08.

lessons she thinks we can learn from the little boy's death.

:40:09.:40:13.

One of Britain's most notorious radical clerics - Anjem Choudary -

:40:14.:40:16.

will be sentenced this morning, after he was convicted of inciting

:40:17.:40:18.

support for the terror group Islamic State.

:40:19.:40:20.

Counter-terror police have spent almost 20 years trying

:40:21.:40:22.

to bring Choudary to trial, accusing him - and the proscribed

:40:23.:40:25.

organisations which he helped run - of radicalising young men and women.

:40:26.:40:28.

He now faces up to ten years in prison.

:40:29.:40:32.

In a moment we'll speak to a group of people who knew him

:40:33.:40:35.

and discuss what kind of impact his sentence could have

:40:36.:40:38.

But first, more about who Anjem Choudary is.

:40:39.:40:53.

Anjem Choudary, doing what he did best, preaching his own brand of

:40:54.:40:59.

radical Islam. For two decades, the authorities have been monitoring him

:41:00.:41:03.

but as a trained lawyer, he knew how to stay on the right side of the

:41:04.:41:10.

law. Said to be clever, charismatic and dangerous, followers who fell

:41:11.:41:14.

under his spell included Michael and oblige all, one of the men who

:41:15.:41:20.

murdered Fusiliers Lee Read the in 2013. Another follower was Richard

:41:21.:41:25.

Dart, a Muslim convert jailed for terrorism offences. That's

:41:26.:41:30.

stepbrother has spent years studying and Jim Choudhury. He is like a

:41:31.:41:33.

father figure to a lot of these guys. He knows what buttons to push.

:41:34.:41:41.

He radicalised as people, indoctrinate them with extremist

:41:42.:41:49.

ideology. Anjem Choudary has been linked to countless extremists here

:41:50.:41:52.

and abroad but has never been charged with a serious offence until

:41:53.:41:57.

now. In 2014, he pledged allegiance to Islamic State and invited others

:41:58.:42:03.

to support it. One of his keenest followers was this man, who fled

:42:04.:42:10.

from the UK whilst on bail and joined Islamic State. He is

:42:11.:42:14.

suspected of being the new Jihadi John. The authorities had a chance

:42:15.:42:18.

to get Anjem Choudary in the dock and charged him with the unusual

:42:19.:42:21.

crime of inviting support for a banned group. He boasted extremist

:42:22.:42:28.

material online and that was then available around the world. In the

:42:29.:42:31.

light of his speeches and the people he had posted -- the material he had

:42:32.:42:40.

posted, it was enough to convict him. Choudhury will be sentenced

:42:41.:42:44.

today and is facing up to ten years in prison. Authorities hope that the

:42:45.:42:47.

influential hate preacher will finally be silenced.

:42:48.:42:50.

Let's talk now to Dal Babu, a former superintendent

:42:51.:42:54.

with the Met Police who now advises the government on counter extremism.

:42:55.:42:58.

Steve Gillan is from the Prison Officers Association.

:42:59.:43:01.

And Rashad Ali is a former radical who now helps prevent young

:43:02.:43:04.

Welcome. What drew you to the Islamist organisation you supported,

:43:05.:43:16.

which had the same ideology as the one that Anjem Choudary led? A

:43:17.:43:21.

number of different things. First of all, it is attractive on an

:43:22.:43:25.

ideological level. It is offering something alternative in terms of

:43:26.:43:28.

politics and religion and belonging. It takes the lean back ticks all of

:43:29.:43:33.

those boxes. Growing up in the 90s, there was not a lot of debate about

:43:34.:43:39.

whether you were Muslim or British or Asian. -- it takes all of those

:43:40.:43:45.

boxes. It capitalises on that. You are Muslim, first and foremost, and

:43:46.:43:48.

that is your primary identity. Coupled with what was happening

:43:49.:43:52.

around the globe at the time, living through the atrocities in Bosnia,

:43:53.:43:56.

the genocide that was happening in trip permits and so on, this was

:43:57.:44:04.

happening to blonde, blue-eyed, white Muslims whose only cultural

:44:05.:44:08.

collection with Islam was the fact that was their heritage, and showed

:44:09.:44:11.

raised debate is about to what extent can you really be a muscle

:44:12.:44:17.

within society. Coupled with that, the political dimension. In order to

:44:18.:44:23.

protect Muslims, in Bosnia, Palestinian territories or cashmere,

:44:24.:44:27.

or whether it was in Chechnya at the time, actually the singular force

:44:28.:44:33.

that can protect Muslims was a global superpower that did not

:44:34.:44:37.

recognise borders, like Syria or Iraq or any other border, and was

:44:38.:44:44.

able to unify Muslims into a global caliphate. The idea of an old Muslim

:44:45.:44:47.

empire being re-established, reasserted in the world, coupled

:44:48.:44:53.

with religious identities and your sense of belonging. And where does

:44:54.:44:57.

the violence coming to it? It comes into deciding how do you want to

:44:58.:45:00.

bring this about. And perhaps that is where Anjem Choudary cumin? There

:45:01.:45:07.

is an ideal that rejects everything Western and the idea is that the

:45:08.:45:13.

only way you can bring it about is through violence. Anjem Choudary's

:45:14.:45:17.

perspective was bringing it about in his version of jihad, violent acts.

:45:18.:45:22.

Whether that was globally for him or for some of his affiliates,

:45:23.:45:27.

terrorist acts in the UK, or now clearly associating with Islamic

:45:28.:45:32.

State in Iraq and Syria, then it was swearing allegiance to them and

:45:33.:45:33.

taking actions on their behalf. From a former Chief Superintendent's

:45:34.:45:46.

view, how do you get in the way, how do you stop people being attracted

:45:47.:45:50.

to that? Well, I think Anjem Choudary was a very, very dangerous

:45:51.:45:53.

individual. He preyed on vulnerable individuals. He was in the

:45:54.:45:57.

Premiership of radicalisation, so he was one of the Big Four who have now

:45:58.:46:02.

all been put away for been kicked out of the country. He was a very,

:46:03.:46:06.

very dangerous individual. He preyed on vulnerable individuals and he

:46:07.:46:11.

went for the sound bite, the idea of having the Islamic flag flying over

:46:12.:46:14.

Downing Street and I think what needed to happen was he was dealt

:46:15.:46:19.

with, but the difficulty was that the hypocrisy, he was a nightclub

:46:20.:46:24.

goer, he was a philanderer, he was all of these things and suddenly

:46:25.:46:29.

found religion and the danger is with somebody like him, he preyed on

:46:30.:46:33.

vulnerable individuals and he made an issue of ensuring he used his

:46:34.:46:36.

legal training to stay on the right side of the law which made it

:46:37.:46:40.

incredibly difficult for the authorities to actually prosecute

:46:41.:46:45.

him. But during that time, he radicalised individuals and my fear

:46:46.:46:51.

now is that we've now had the Premiership radicalisers

:46:52.:46:54.

neutralised, the danger is now a lot of the radicalisation will be done

:46:55.:47:00.

via Twitter and via Facebook by individuals sending messages from

:47:01.:47:03.

Syria and Lebanon. Well, that's already being done. I wonder how

:47:04.:47:08.

relevant Anjem Choudary has been in recent years when social media has

:47:09.:47:11.

taken over? First of all, the organisation has been quite active

:47:12.:47:16.

on the social media. These are groups essentially with you have

:47:17.:47:19.

been connected to a host of different people. Twitter, 90,000

:47:20.:47:26.

individuals accounts have been taken down. 90,000? 90,000. It is not just

:47:27.:47:32.

Twitter, it is telegram, it is Facebook, it is the different

:47:33.:47:37.

mediums, YouTube has been instrumental in this regard. The

:47:38.:47:41.

battle ground for this is on the social media platforms. It is how

:47:42.:47:49.

the counter narratives go out on Facebook and target them via Twitter

:47:50.:47:53.

or being able to send out videos on YouTube to counter that message. You

:47:54.:47:59.

say he has been silenced along with three other top radicalisers, if I

:48:00.:48:03.

can put it like that, they maybe in jail for a bit. There is no silence,

:48:04.:48:07.

the social media... You're right Victoria. There isn't any silence

:48:08.:48:13.

and in some ways it become more sin ter because at least we knew Anjem

:48:14.:48:16.

Choudary was out there and he was seen as a fool by 99% of the people

:48:17.:48:22.

who dealt with him. The media should take some responsibility for giving

:48:23.:48:25.

him airtime. He was somebody who had no credibility and yet he was

:48:26.:48:30.

getting media time. He appeared on flagship programmes like the Today

:48:31.:48:35.

programme and on Newsnight and he was able to espouse without being

:48:36.:48:40.

challenged his views. I don't think that is fair that he wasn't

:48:41.:48:44.

challenged. He was challenged. But I take your point. That's your point.

:48:45.:48:49.

Steve, given that the recent Government announcement which is

:48:50.:48:53.

that someone like Choudary will be locked up in a high-security prison,

:48:54.:48:58.

isolated, so he cannot radicalise other inmates, does that make you

:48:59.:49:01.

less concerned about where he'll be jailed? No, radicalisation is a very

:49:02.:49:08.

complex issue in prisons. We don't agree with the Government

:49:09.:49:14.

recommendation. Some of the other recommendations we think are very

:49:15.:49:18.

good, but isolating individuals, it didn't work 30 years ago in the H

:49:19.:49:23.

Blocks in Northern Ireland where loyalists and Republicans

:49:24.:49:26.

automatically then demanded political status. They wore it as a

:49:27.:49:31.

badge of honour and we see the same here, whether it is Choudary or

:49:32.:49:37.

anybody else. So how would you stop somebody like him radicalising other

:49:38.:49:40.

people in jail? It has got to be done in society first because out of

:49:41.:49:44.

sight, out of mind, appears to be the order of the day now they're in

:49:45.:49:49.

prison, everything is OK. Well, everything is not OK because prisons

:49:50.:49:53.

are becoming a breeding ground. I think it has got to start in society

:49:54.:49:57.

first. Fine, so if we accept that, what would you do in jail with

:49:58.:50:01.

someone like Choudary to stop him influencing a load of other people?

:50:02.:50:04.

There is lots of initiatives that can be done. One, better training

:50:05.:50:09.

for prison officers. But first and fore most, you can't have a

:50:10.:50:14.

situation where you've got 35% less prison officers now looking after

:50:15.:50:19.

85,000 prisoners in our jails now. Even if you had more officers, I

:50:20.:50:25.

don't know how you would stop Anjem Choudary radicalising other

:50:26.:50:31.

prisoners who might be harbouring all sorts of grievances? Possibly,

:50:32.:50:37.

Victoria, but I think prison officers are very professional

:50:38.:50:40.

people that keep the public safe and I think they do an excellent job

:50:41.:50:43.

with people like Choudary and others. How? By doing what? With

:50:44.:50:50.

high-profile prisoners that have got much more proximity than what

:50:51.:50:55.

Choudary will ever have. Go on. Just let me finish. Better training, more

:50:56.:51:02.

resources, more dedication to prison officers by realising the

:51:03.:51:05.

professionalisation, but this can only be done through education in

:51:06.:51:09.

society, without demonising the Muslim faith. Let me ask you,

:51:10.:51:15.

isolation for Choudary in jail? I'm sympathetic to the idea that we need

:51:16.:51:18.

to separate them from the general prison population. Prison is a

:51:19.:51:26.

captive audience and it is people who have demonstrated an inclination

:51:27.:51:30.

towards violence and people who demonstrated a general moral

:51:31.:51:32.

prospective which considers itself separated from society. So

:51:33.:51:37.

therefore, they are more vulnerable. At the same time the issue here

:51:38.:51:41.

isn't really just about isolating without putting a plan in place and

:51:42.:51:44.

the key thing with people like Anjem Choudary and others, is being able

:51:45.:51:49.

to engage in a deralicalisation process. A lot of the work

:51:50.:51:52.

demonstrates that you can engage individuals no matter where they are

:51:53.:51:58.

on that spectrum, even the hard-end, but it can be Dungiven the right

:51:59.:52:01.

circumstances and the right people intervening. Anjem Choudary could be

:52:02.:52:06.

de-radicalised in jail? It is necessary to make that effort. I

:52:07.:52:12.

just think, I support Steve's position. If you have burglars you

:52:13.:52:18.

don't isolated burglars and you don't isolate the robbers. These

:52:19.:52:24.

people at some stage have to come into society. It is having good

:52:25.:52:28.

training for the prison officers. A huge amount of public resources have

:52:29.:52:31.

been reduced and that's where we need to be putting our resources in.

:52:32.:52:36.

This is a premiership radicaliser who has been put behind bars. Let's

:52:37.:52:42.

do what we can to ensure he doesn't damage anymore vulnerable people

:52:43.:52:45.

because there will be more vulnerable people in an enclosed

:52:46.:52:50.

space in prisons. Let's not forget the excellent work the imams are

:52:51.:52:54.

doing up and down the country de-radicalising people. A couple of

:52:55.:52:57.

comments from people listening to you. We are expecting the sentencing

:52:58.:53:01.

this morning sometime. We will bring that to you as soon as it happens.

:53:02.:53:07.

Kevin on Facebook says, "Crackdown? What crackdown? The man has been

:53:08.:53:12.

allowed to preach his hate for years. I'm sure his replacements are

:53:13.:53:17.

already in place." William e-mails to say, "If there are hundreds or

:53:18.:53:21.

tens of thousands or more just waiting to be called into violence

:53:22.:53:25.

then the problem is bigger than one man and he didn't create the problem

:53:26.:53:28.

in the first place." Thank you for those. Thank you very much for

:53:29.:53:34.

coming on the programme. Excuse the offensive language we are about to

:53:35.:53:36.

use. but American President Barack Obama

:53:37.:53:41.

has cancelled a meeting with the controversial President

:53:42.:53:43.

of the Philippines who had earlier Our Asia Correspondent Karishma

:53:44.:53:45.

Vaswani is in Laos at the summit. How did it happen? Well, the

:53:46.:53:53.

discussion or the comments were made by the Filipino president when he

:53:54.:53:58.

was holding a press conference in man lal ahead of his visit where he

:53:59.:54:03.

was due to meet with the American president, Barack Obama. A reporter

:54:04.:54:09.

asked the question, "What will you do if Barack Obama raises the issue

:54:10.:54:18.

of drug killings with you?" 2,000 people have been killed in the

:54:19.:54:22.

Philippines since he became president and he has been criticised

:54:23.:54:26.

for his shoot first, ask later policy. In response to that question

:54:27.:54:32.

the Philippine president said, "Who is Mr Obama to ask me such

:54:33.:54:36.

questions?" And he used the offensive words. The meeting meant

:54:37.:54:40.

to be held between the two on the sidelines of this summit here has

:54:41.:54:46.

been cancelled, but earlier on today, we received a statement from

:54:47.:54:50.

the Philippines delegation which said that the meeting between the

:54:51.:54:53.

United States and the Philippines will be held at a mutually agreed

:54:54.:54:58.

date later in the future. There was an expression of regret from the

:54:59.:55:04.

Filipino president who said his strong comments, he regretted his

:55:05.:55:08.

strong comments were seen as a personal attack on the American

:55:09.:55:09.

president. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, on the campaign trail

:55:10.:55:12.

to be the next President of the United States Hillary Clinton

:55:13.:55:16.

suffered a coughing fit COUGHING

:55:17.:55:40.

Every time I think about Trump I get allergic.

:55:41.:55:46.

COUGHING She said, "Every time I think about

:55:47.:55:50.

Donald Trump I get an allergic reaction." You couldn't really hear

:55:51.:55:54.

it because she was coughing so much. Let's have another listen.

:55:55.:56:03.

COUGHING Every time I think about Trump I get

:56:04.:56:09.

allergic. LAUGHTER

:56:10.:56:09.

She needs a hot cup of tea. Tomorrow, in London, we're holding

:56:10.:56:14.

a big audience programme Junior doctors may not

:56:15.:56:17.

be going on strike for But they will be going on strike

:56:18.:56:22.

for a week in a month's time. And then again in another month

:56:23.:56:26.

and so on. So the dispute hasn't been settled -

:56:27.:56:31.

just postponed and tomorrow we want to try and work out how

:56:32.:56:33.

and if it will ever be settled. You are very welcome to join us,

:56:34.:56:37.

to take part whether you're a junior doctor, you work in the NHS,

:56:38.:56:40.

you've been treated in hospital or are going to be affected

:56:41.:56:43.

by the five-day strikes. If you'd like to be part

:56:44.:56:45.

of the programme to share your views, do e-mail

:56:46.:56:48.

[email protected] to apply. Let's get the latest weather update

:56:49.:56:53.

with Carol Kirkwood. When I got up at 4.15am and let

:56:54.:57:02.

Gracie out for a wee, it was so warm. You're not wrong. It has been

:57:03.:57:08.

a warm start. Temperatures last night in Northern Ireland didn't

:57:09.:57:12.

drop lower than 19.4 Celsius in Aldergrove. Now, the temperatures

:57:13.:57:16.

are higher than that. But look at this beautiful picture. Weather

:57:17.:57:20.

Watchers picture from Northern Ireland. Lovely skies there. Some

:57:21.:57:25.

blue skies, but to show you what the temperatures are like now, it is 22

:57:26.:57:34.

Celsius in Leconfield and 21 Celsius in Lossiemouth, Aberdeen, Newcastle,

:57:35.:57:37.

Eastbourne Newport to name a few places and it is feeling humid. So

:57:38.:57:41.

what we have with it is not much in the way of a breeze to turn over the

:57:42.:57:44.

cloud that we have. It is a cloudy start, but we've got a weak weather

:57:45.:57:49.

front straddled across parts of Northern Ireland and Southern

:57:50.:57:51.

Scotland. Now, that's going to continue to produce rain as we go

:57:52.:57:54.

through the course of the day. The cloud across England and Wales will

:57:55.:57:59.

break up in places so we will see bright skies or sunshine, but the

:58:00.:58:03.

lion's share of the sunshine today will be across north-east Scotland.

:58:04.:58:06.

Into the afternoon, we hang on to the band of rain across Northern

:58:07.:58:09.

Ireland. It is slipping southwards. So for the far north of Northern

:58:10.:58:13.

Ireland, it will brighten up. Northern Ireland Scotland

:58:14.:58:14.

particularly, the north-east, seeing the sunshine. Somewhere in

:58:15.:58:19.

Aberdeenshire could see 25 Celsius. But for the southern uplands, there

:58:20.:58:22.

is a lot of cloud around and patchy rain. As we come back into the rest

:58:23.:58:26.

of England and Wales, we're looking at again, quite a bit of cloud, but

:58:27.:58:31.

somewhere from London up towards the Wash could hit 26 Celsius today. And

:58:32.:58:36.

drifting across southern counties again, variable amounts of cloud,

:58:37.:58:40.

some sunny breaks and the tame too can be said for Wales. In Cardiff,

:58:41.:58:45.

highs around the 22 Celsius mark. Heading through the evening and

:58:46.:58:50.

overnight, this line of rain across Northern Ireland and Southern

:58:51.:58:53.

Scotland retreats northwards and that will allow the humid air across

:58:54.:58:58.

England and Wales to travel further north. So you will notice that

:58:59.:59:00.

across Scotland and Northern Ireland tonight. There will be a lot of

:59:01.:59:04.

cloud around. And patchy mist and fog as well. So that's how we start

:59:05.:59:10.

the day tomorrow. Once again, on a cloudy note but tomorrow with drier

:59:11.:59:14.

air being imported for the Continent, you will find it will

:59:15.:59:16.

break up readily and we will see more sunshine. It will feel much

:59:17.:59:22.

warmer as well in the south, but still, some of that rain playing the

:59:23.:59:29.

Outer Hebrides. 22 Celsius the maximum temperature in Newcastle

:59:30.:59:33.

tomorrow and up to 27 Celsius as we slip down towards the South East.

:59:34.:59:37.

Thursday, well, we have got a weather front crossing us, it is

:59:38.:59:41.

producing rain across Scotland and Northern Ireland and cloud across

:59:42.:59:44.

England and Wales. That moves away and behind it, still quite bright,

:59:45.:59:48.

some sunshine coming out and it will feel a little bit fresher. It

:59:49.:59:51.

doesn't mean it will turn cold, but it will be fresher than we're

:59:52.:59:57.

looking at than the next couple of days. And then as we head into

:59:58.:00:05.

Friday, well Friday too, is looking fairly cloudy. We've got stronger

:00:06.:00:09.

winds coming in from the west, possibly gales across north-west

:00:10.:00:11.

Scotland and the rain also coming in from the west too.

:00:12.:00:21.

She is a human sunbeam, I am telling you right now.

:00:22.:00:27.

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria

:00:28.:00:29.

Later on the programme, the outrage which followed the death

:00:30.:00:34.

of Baby Peter Connolly in 2007 led to widespread condemnation

:00:35.:00:37.

It also resulted in the sacking on live television

:00:38.:00:40.

of Sharon Shoesmith, the ex-head of Children's Services

:00:41.:00:42.

in the North London Borough of Haringey by the Children's

:00:43.:00:44.

secretary at the time, Ed Balls.

:00:45.:00:46.

I have decided to take immediate action. My first priority is to put

:00:47.:00:51.

in place a new leadership and management team in Haringey

:00:52.:00:54.

Children's Services to ensure that vulnerable children in the borough

:00:55.:00:58.

are properly protected. I have directed Haringey Council today to

:00:59.:01:04.

appoint Mr John Coughlan as director of Children's Services with

:01:05.:01:08.

immediate effect. Haringey Council will now lose the current executor

:01:09.:01:13.

of Children's Services, post with immediate effect.

:01:14.:01:15.

She believes there are still lessons to be learned

:01:16.:01:19.

On the programme today, Lauri Love, an autistic student from Suffolk

:01:20.:01:33.

accused of hacking into government websites told this programme that

:01:34.:01:37.

extradition to a US jail would put his life jail. Anything more than a

:01:38.:01:42.

few decades, you see no end to it. It is difficult in US prisons for

:01:43.:01:44.

people with mental health difficulties. Many of you getting in

:01:45.:01:51.

touch about the interview. Clifford says, break laws and act the

:01:52.:01:55.

righteous cyber terrorist, then take your punishment like a man and do

:01:56.:02:01.

not cry like a child in court. Gareth says that no judge in good

:02:02.:02:04.

conscience should allow extradition without evidence. If you want to

:02:05.:02:10.

watch the interview again, you can. It is on our website:

:02:11.:02:14.

And how do new Harry Potter short stories, just released,

:02:15.:02:18.

stand up to the scrutiny of these Harry Potter fans?

:02:19.:02:21.

They will be giving their verdict on the latest tales

:02:22.:02:23.

from the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry

:02:24.:02:25.

Good morning, let's get the latest BBC news so far this morning.

:02:26.:02:35.

I love those kids curled up reading books.

:02:36.:02:41.

A group of activists is disrupting flights at London City airport.

:02:42.:02:44.

The protest by a number of Black Lives Matter demonstrators,

:02:45.:02:46.

The police are there trying to defuse the situation.

:02:47.:02:50.

The Black Lives Matter movement says it wants to highlight the UK's

:02:51.:02:52.

environmental impact on the lives of black people,

:02:53.:02:54.

saying the 'climate crisis is a racist crisis'.

:02:55.:03:17.

The retailer Sports Direct that was condemned over working

:03:18.:03:19.

practices and zero hours contracts - is to improve pay and conditions

:03:20.:03:21.

for staff at its main distribution centre.

:03:22.:03:23.

An independent review into its working practices found

:03:24.:03:25.

serious shortcomings which Sports Direct

:03:26.:03:26.

Staff at its warehouse are now to be put on guaranteed hours

:03:27.:03:30.

The Labour MP Keith Vaz will today be urged to stand down as chairman

:03:31.:03:37.

of the Home Affairs Select Committee after newspaper reports that he paid

:03:38.:03:40.

Mr Vaz is due to discuss his future with the Commons Home

:03:41.:03:46.

He's reported to be facing a vote of no confidence.

:03:47.:03:54.

The BBC understands senior figures on the committee are consulting

:03:55.:03:56.

Commons clerks about what powers they have to force Mr Vaz out.

:03:57.:04:01.

One of Britain's most notorious radical clerics - Anjem Choudary -

:04:02.:04:04.

Choudhary, 49, was convicted last month of inciting support

:04:05.:04:09.

He could face up to ten years in prison.

:04:10.:04:14.

A British man wanted in the US for allegedly hacking

:04:15.:04:17.

into government computers has told this programme he fears for his life

:04:18.:04:20.

Lauri Love, who has Asperger's syndrome, could face trials in three

:04:21.:04:27.

different states and is accused of hacking into the FBI, the US

:04:28.:04:30.

central bank and the country's missile defence agency.

:04:31.:04:41.

A judge is due to announce next week if he should be extradited.

:04:42.:04:44.

He told the Victoria Derbyshire programme he is worried

:04:45.:04:46.

It's quite absurd. Anything more than a few decades, you see no end

:04:47.:04:53.

to it. Because of the power conditions in US prisons, I think I

:04:54.:04:59.

would be in danger of dying in some unfortunate way. -- because of the

:05:00.:05:00.

poor conditions. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:05:01.:05:03.

News, more at 10.30. This text from Richard about Lauri

:05:04.:05:13.

Love, the 31-year-old student facing extradition to the States. I am on

:05:14.:05:18.

the autism spectrum and I have anxiety and it depends how bad the

:05:19.:05:22.

crime is in the USA. I always think that Americans say things and the

:05:23.:05:32.

actions happen. I have 100% support for Lauri Love. Another tweet: I

:05:33.:05:36.

believe that Lauri Love should be recruited by the government to

:05:37.:05:39.

protect our cyber networks. And this tweet: The internet has no borders

:05:40.:05:46.

and if he hacked into US systems, he should be prosecuted, regardless of

:05:47.:05:47.

the location he was in. Do get in touch with us

:05:48.:05:50.

throughout the morning, Andy Murray is lining up a second US

:05:51.:05:54.

Open title after reaching the quarter finals of the last

:05:55.:06:00.

tennis major of the year. He beat Grigor Dimitrov in straight

:06:01.:06:03.

sets, dropping just five games. He has now reached the quarterfinals

:06:04.:06:17.

in 22 of his last 23 Grand Slams. Next, a meeting with Kei Nishikori.

:06:18.:06:22.

I don't think I made any mistakes in the match. I kept good concentration

:06:23.:06:31.

throughout. It was a good match and Dimitrov played his best but I did

:06:32.:06:35.

not give him a chance to get into the match. Meanwhile Serena Williams

:06:36.:06:39.

has won more Grand Slam matches than any other player in history. Her

:06:40.:06:45.

victory against Yaroslava Shvedova is 308 Grand Slam win, moving past

:06:46.:06:49.

Roger Federer's record as she reached the quarterfinals.

:06:50.:06:58.

In their first competitive match since they reached

:06:59.:07:00.

the semi-finals of Euro 2016, Wales kicked off their World Cup

:07:01.:07:02.

qualifying campaign with a 4-nil win over Moldova.

:07:03.:07:04.

Gareth Bale was the star of the show in Cardiff,

:07:05.:07:07.

Joe Allen then scored his first international goal, before Bale

:07:08.:07:11.

He's now second on Wales' goalscoring list, behind Ian Rush.

:07:12.:07:20.

A great start for Wales that pleased their manager.

:07:21.:07:22.

I think tonight was difficult because the last time we were

:07:23.:07:29.

together it was in front of the world, really, in a semifinal of a

:07:30.:07:33.

tournament. And now we are starting the beginning of a campaign against

:07:34.:07:36.

a team we are expected to beat at home. So it was a different

:07:37.:07:42.

challenge for us. But the boys answered all the questions and like

:07:43.:07:47.

I say, we could have scored by more than four, but three points, that is

:07:48.:07:53.

what it is all about. The next match is going to be a sterner test,

:07:54.:07:55.

against Austria in October. Rory McIlroy played an incredible

:07:56.:08:01.

final round as he won the Deutche Bank Championship -

:08:02.:08:03.

his first PGA tile He was six shots behind

:08:04.:08:05.

But he overturned that with a superb round of 65 to finish two shots

:08:06.:08:10.

clear on 15-under-par. It was McIlroy's first PGA Tour

:08:11.:08:12.

title in more than a year. I am proud of myself that I was able

:08:13.:08:21.

to keep that momentum going, to keep the same thoughts and not get

:08:22.:08:29.

negative if I hit it bad. I tried to stay positive throughout the weekend

:08:30.:08:33.

and as I said, it has been a great lesson this week for future

:08:34.:08:36.

tournaments, if I do not get off to the start that I want. And that is

:08:37.:08:39.

all the sport for now. The death of Baby P is one

:08:40.:08:44.

of the most high profile Peter Connelly, the blue eyed,

:08:45.:08:46.

blonde haired little boy, was found dead in his cot

:08:47.:08:50.

in the North London borough A year later his mother

:08:51.:08:52.

Tracy Connelly, her boyfriend Steven Barker and his brother

:08:53.:08:58.

Jason Owen were convicted of 'causing or allowing'

:08:59.:09:00.

Peter's death. Details of the shocking

:09:01.:09:06.

crime emerged. injuries to his body and had been

:09:07.:09:10.

seen more than 60 times by health workers, the police

:09:11.:09:15.

and social workers. Two days before his death,

:09:16.:09:18.

a children's doctor who was standing in as a locum

:09:19.:09:21.

missed the fact that the child Yet it was only social workers

:09:22.:09:24.

that were vilified. The case sparked outrage,

:09:25.:09:30.

leading to the then Director of Children's Services

:09:31.:09:34.

at Haringey, Sharon Shoesmith, being sacked live on television

:09:35.:09:36.

by the then Children's We'll talk to Sharon Shoesmith

:09:37.:09:38.

in a moment about a book she's written, Learning From Baby P,

:09:39.:09:42.

on the lessons she thinks should be learned from the death

:09:43.:09:45.

of Peter Connolly. The death in 2007 of 17-month-old

:09:46.:09:54.

Peter Connolly, known for so long as BPP, sparked huge public outrage.

:09:55.:10:00.

His mother, Tracey Connelly, her boyfriend and their lodger were

:10:01.:10:04.

jailed for causing or allowing the toddler's death, but much of the

:10:05.:10:09.

criticism was directed at social workers in the borough of Haringey

:10:10.:10:11.

in north London were the toddler lived and was on the at risk

:10:12.:10:16.

register. Baby Peter was found to have suffered 50 injuries and had

:10:17.:10:19.

long been known to them. In the final eight months of his life,

:10:20.:10:24.

social workers, police and health professionals make contact with his

:10:25.:10:29.

family on 60 occasions. In July of 2007, less than a week before his

:10:30.:10:36.

death, Maria Ward, a social worker, made a prearranged home visit but

:10:37.:10:39.

missed injuries to his face and hands after he was deliberately

:10:40.:10:43.

smeared with chocolate to hide them. Days before he died, a doctor missed

:10:44.:10:48.

the fact that he had it broken spine. More than a million people

:10:49.:10:52.

signed a petition demanding the sacking of social workers and

:10:53.:10:58.

doctors who failed him. In November 2008, the children's minister, Ed

:10:59.:11:02.

Balls, ordered an enquiry into his death and a month later, Haringey

:11:03.:11:07.

Council's director of Children's Services, Sharon Shoesmith was

:11:08.:11:10.

sacked from her post with immediate effect. Haringey Council will now

:11:11.:11:15.

remove the current director of Children's Services from her post

:11:16.:11:20.

with immediate effect. An official report in 2010 criticised social

:11:21.:11:23.

workers and their managers, saying that they were too willing to

:11:24.:11:29.

believe Peter's mother's claim that her son was injured accidentally.

:11:30.:11:36.

Sharon Shoesmith later won a pay-out of ?600,000 after a wrongful

:11:37.:11:41.

dismissal court ruled in her favour. Sharon Shoesmith, former Director

:11:42.:11:42.

of Children's Services Good morning. Thank you for talking

:11:43.:11:52.

to us. Straightaway, let's deal with the accusation that you are cashing

:11:53.:11:55.

in on the death of Peter Connolly by writing this book. Well, the book is

:11:56.:12:03.

based on my PhD, which I wrote at university, and over the years since

:12:04.:12:08.

Peter died, any physical or financial resources I have had have

:12:09.:12:14.

been used to raise some profile and awareness of some of the issues

:12:15.:12:20.

around cases like his. I only this week have travelled around this

:12:21.:12:24.

country with an organisation called I am social work, and I am joining

:12:25.:12:28.

another organisation, social workers without borders, to try to promote

:12:29.:12:32.

some of the work that social workers do. But are you cashing in? I am not

:12:33.:12:40.

cashing in. The film talked about ?600,000. There was never ?600,000,

:12:41.:12:44.

there was a fraction of that which I cannot reveal because I have signed

:12:45.:12:47.

papers and people would be ready to tackle me. It is a fraction of that.

:12:48.:12:55.

And it is eight years. So any resource I had is ploughed into

:12:56.:13:01.

raising the profile about harm to children. The book, you say, is

:13:02.:13:08.

about learning from the death of Peter Connolly and trying to

:13:09.:13:12.

understand why politicians, and the public, reacted in the way that they

:13:13.:13:15.

did when an number of other children, over 50 other children

:13:16.:13:19.

died in the same year and there was not the same reaction. But you were

:13:20.:13:23.

at the heart of it, so I wonder how the book could be seen as objective?

:13:24.:13:30.

You are not an independent observer. No, I am not, and that is an issue

:13:31.:13:34.

for anyone who writes a book on a difficult subject. And how you try

:13:35.:13:39.

to deal with that is to provide the evidence. And to reference the

:13:40.:13:45.

evidence. My book does reference quite a large amount of evidence,

:13:46.:13:48.

some of it which came through the court process. And I am able to

:13:49.:13:57.

stand back and criticise myself. How? With great difficulty, of

:13:58.:14:04.

course. But with the passage of time, and I am a self reflective

:14:05.:14:08.

person, I am able to do that. But at the heart of this, and at the heart

:14:09.:14:12.

of some of your questions already is the sense that I am guilty. And I

:14:13.:14:16.

think I have to tackle that one. I'm not guilty. I have only asked two

:14:17.:14:23.

questions and I have many more. But both of them had the undercurrent

:14:24.:14:26.

that I had done something wrong and I should be punished in some way.

:14:27.:14:32.

You are entitled to your opinion but perhaps it is just your perception

:14:33.:14:35.

because you are coming from that place, because that is how it has

:14:36.:14:39.

been for you. Absolutely. That is how it has been for all of these

:14:40.:14:44.

years. You argue strongly that in this country, when a child dies at

:14:45.:14:48.

the hands of the mum and dad, what society does more often than not is

:14:49.:14:54.

blamed social workers. And that is what happened, as we know, in the

:14:55.:14:58.

case of Peter Connolly. And the argument is that it is because

:14:59.:15:01.

society cannot cope with the fact that mums and dads killed their own

:15:02.:15:05.

children. Tell us more about your theory. It is one of the arguments I

:15:06.:15:12.

make in the book, that the crime of familial child homicides, often it

:15:13.:15:16.

is a mother or father or an uncle or an aunt who is involved, it is such

:15:17.:15:22.

repugnant crime. It is very hard for us to understand how that happen.

:15:23.:15:28.

Most of us really cherish our children. It is very hard for that

:15:29.:15:32.

to be understood. I think that has to be explored. In finding it hard

:15:33.:15:40.

to handle, we tend to look elsewhere for blame, we look for another

:15:41.:15:47.

reason. Who feel that this child? -- who failed this child. The

:15:48.:15:50.

circumstances around Peter's death remain complex. To this date we do

:15:51.:15:55.

not know how he died or when he died or who killed him, yet we think we

:15:56.:16:00.

know so much about Peter. But he was denied an inquest. So we do not know

:16:01.:16:05.

the answer to any of those questions, even today.

:16:06.:16:09.

Why do you think again, your argument, but why do you think it is

:16:10.:16:17.

more palatable to people to blame social workers or another agency,

:16:18.:16:21.

but in this case social workers rather than put responsibility

:16:22.:16:25.

squarely at the hands, in this case, of the mother, the boyfriend and the

:16:26.:16:29.

lodger? Well, it is easier in one sense, but also when you look in

:16:30.:16:34.

in-depth as I do in the book what happened after Peter's death and

:16:35.:16:37.

after the public knew about Peter's death which was a year on, you have

:16:38.:16:43.

got a real complex interaction between politicians, the media, and

:16:44.:16:47.

the public. The public were ill informed and misled from the

:16:48.:16:53.

start... By? By politicians and tabloid media. What were the

:16:54.:16:57.

misleading things you say were put out? Cameron was the first thing

:16:58.:17:02.

that kicked this off in this very negative direction. You know, a real

:17:03.:17:08.

example of opportunism, here was an Opposition leader desperate to be

:17:09.:17:13.

Prime Minister, had to bring The Sun tabloid newspaper on his side in

:17:14.:17:17.

order to get votes, yeah. We know that's how it works and there is an

:17:18.:17:23.

interaction between him and The Sun, Rebekah Brooks and that develops

:17:24.:17:29.

into a very challenging interaction, I think, between Rebekah Brooks and

:17:30.:17:33.

Ed Balls in the end. I cover this in the book in some detail. But what

:17:34.:17:38.

was misleading? What did politicians and the media put out that was

:17:39.:17:42.

misleading? The worst of what they put out was that social workers

:17:43.:17:47.

stood by and watched the torture of Peter Connelly. That was how bad it

:17:48.:17:53.

got. That is how desperate it became. When I use those words, you

:17:54.:17:57.

know, I have shivers running through my body because it was so far from

:17:58.:18:03.

the truth. And you know, if I say to you that Peter was found dead on a

:18:04.:18:08.

Friday morning. He had spent the previous weekend with his father,

:18:09.:18:12.

his natural father, and his maternal grandmother. On Monday, the social

:18:13.:18:22.

worker met both the father, talking about Peter's future, the fact that

:18:23.:18:26.

he was having this specialist medical investigation on the

:18:27.:18:29.

Wednesday. The next day he is met in the street. The whole family is met

:18:30.:18:32.

by a health professional who knows the family and she interacted with

:18:33.:18:39.

them. The next day he goes to see the doctor, and your little

:18:40.:18:41.

introduction covered that and you say it is a fact that he had a

:18:42.:18:46.

fractured spine, but we actually don't know that. There is some

:18:47.:18:51.

conflict between pathologists in what they think was the situation

:18:52.:18:56.

with Peter that day. The next day, the mother is in our offices with

:18:57.:19:00.

the police officers and they're telling her that they have no case

:19:01.:19:05.

against her. They have no evidence against her and that they won't

:19:06.:19:08.

press charges, the day before he died and the next day he is found

:19:09.:19:14.

dead. It feels like it is still rankles with you, certainly having

:19:15.:19:18.

read the book, that social workers got all the criticism when doctors,

:19:19.:19:23.

health professionals, the police, also made numerous visits to the

:19:24.:19:27.

little boy? Yes. It doesn't wrangle with me. I think it is something

:19:28.:19:31.

that we have to know and understand. I have never used blame against

:19:32.:19:35.

blame, yeah? Blame is not part of my psyche really. It is not something

:19:36.:19:41.

that I've ever used... But you do in the book, you blame the politicians,

:19:42.:19:47.

you blame the police for private briefing which contributes to

:19:48.:19:51.

misleading the public? I would really contest your interpretation.

:19:52.:19:57.

I don't blame. What you find in the book is a real emphasis on

:19:58.:20:01.

understanding, yeah? I really set that out at the beginning. That we

:20:02.:20:04.

need to stand back and understand what happened here. I need to

:20:05.:20:11.

understand too, yeah? I need to accept the public's reaction because

:20:12.:20:14.

of what they were told, what they did understand. No, I would contest

:20:15.:20:21.

that it is blame. The serious issue here is how we responded to Peter's

:20:22.:20:27.

death and how we tackle this kind of crime. I gave the statistics and

:20:28.:20:32.

you've quoted them this morning, you know, there is one child every week

:20:33.:20:37.

dies. Now, that is not general knowledge in our population. People

:20:38.:20:40.

don't know that, yeah? We have a lot of general knowledge about lots of

:20:41.:20:44.

other things. But not this. We don't put that kind of information out

:20:45.:20:49.

there. And I think the serious issue and what the book is trying to say,

:20:50.:20:52.

this is something we have to come to terms with. We have to face this one

:20:53.:20:59.

and try to understand it and this just simply blaming social workers

:21:00.:21:03.

isn't going to get us anywhere. In fact, it is making the situation

:21:04.:21:08.

worse because the social work profession is just under siege all

:21:09.:21:13.

of the time. It has become, I feel, quite fragile, quite fear of

:21:14.:21:20.

failure. I push social workers everywhere I go to try and join a

:21:21.:21:25.

single independent professional organisation that can support them

:21:26.:21:33.

and protect them. But if you make such an important or a profession,

:21:34.:21:39.

fearful, which is I think is what we've done here. They meet me and

:21:40.:21:44.

go, "Oh my goodness, we couldn't believe what happened. We live in

:21:45.:21:50.

horror that it will happen to us." I have contact from social workers,

:21:51.:21:55.

only one yesterday, saying, "Please can I talk to you about what is

:21:56.:21:57.

happening to me?" This is happening now. It is happening now. At the

:21:58.:22:02.

same time I want to add Victoria, these professionals are out there

:22:03.:22:08.

today and they're at this moment making decisions which are life and

:22:09.:22:13.

death. Yeah. I think it is time we faced up to that. It is time we

:22:14.:22:18.

understood it and it is time we got behind the social work profession. I

:22:19.:22:23.

wonder and you may not like this question, I put this to you - I

:22:24.:22:28.

wonder if your book is looking for conspiracy theories when none exist?

:22:29.:22:33.

Arguing that this relationship between the politicians at the time,

:22:34.:22:37.

The Sun newspaper, a bit of briefing from the Metropolitan Police at the

:22:38.:22:42.

time, somehow manipulated the public into thinking that social workers

:22:43.:22:45.

were to blame for Peter Connelly's death when they knew he died at the

:22:46.:22:51.

hands of his mother. They knew he was on the at risk register in your

:22:52.:22:56.

borough, they knew his death happened on your watch and

:22:57.:23:02.

therefore, it can legitimately be argued that you should accept some

:23:03.:23:07.

responsibility for that? Well, there are a number of issues there. If you

:23:08.:23:16.

accept that one child a week is dying in this way, yeah and that

:23:17.:23:21.

those children will either be on on at risk register or not, but they

:23:22.:23:24.

will exist somewhere and be attached to some local authority or some

:23:25.:23:29.

borough, are we going to sack a Director of Children's services

:23:30.:23:32.

every time a child dies? No. Where will that take us? Because it is

:23:33.:23:36.

different. Because in this case it was on your watch when the child was

:23:37.:23:42.

subject to a child protection plan. Yes, but my point still stands, does

:23:43.:23:50.

it not? Many children die, and I don't want to, you know, say this

:23:51.:23:55.

lightly. It is a horrific crime. But it is happening and the point I'm

:23:56.:24:01.

making to you is if this is how we are going to react to it, no one is

:24:02.:24:05.

going to do this job. No one is going to be a Director of A

:24:06.:24:09.

children's service. I was entirely responsible and accountable in that

:24:10.:24:15.

I followed Government guidelines to look at some detail as to what the

:24:16.:24:19.

conduct was of social workers and I have to remind you that social

:24:20.:24:25.

workers were never struck off by their own regulator. Social workers

:24:26.:24:29.

at the heart of this case are still social workers today. Not

:24:30.:24:32.

practising, but they're still social workers. That gives you some idea of

:24:33.:24:40.

what the issues were for them. But you say conspiracy theory. I took

:24:41.:24:46.

years to come to terms with the evidence that I had obtained through

:24:47.:24:50.

the court system, years to realise what it was and what it was saying

:24:51.:24:55.

and the most difficult set of documents that I looked at were the

:24:56.:25:00.

17 drafts of the Ofsted report and my analysis, which took place over

:25:01.:25:04.

years, and I used other people to look at it and say, "Is what I have

:25:05.:25:08.

analysed here and written actually what is there or am I being, you

:25:09.:25:15.

know, imagining this?" It goes to the heart of your question and they

:25:16.:25:19.

say no, it is here. The evidence is there and I make reference to it in

:25:20.:25:24.

my book and it allowed me to say and it is an important point, that the

:25:25.:25:31.

report that Ed Balls is referring to in your clip that was so appalling,

:25:32.:25:35.

was actually written by Ofsted's top team. It wasn't written by the

:25:36.:25:39.

inspectors who came to Haringey and it was written by Ofsted's top team

:25:40.:25:46.

in conjunction with some of Ed Balls' civil servants, they were

:25:47.:25:51.

giving steers, make sure there is a clear attribution of responsibility

:25:52.:25:57.

because they felt they were dealing with an absolute upsurge of emotion

:25:58.:26:02.

among the public which they were... You argued once you had been sacked

:26:03.:26:05.

effectively that sort of closed things down. Yes, they thought that.

:26:06.:26:09.

They began to feel that there was only one way out of this and this

:26:10.:26:13.

was to get me to sack me and indeed, we now understand and there is

:26:14.:26:18.

evidence in the Leveson Inquiry that Rebekah Brooks rang Ed Balls and we

:26:19.:26:25.

are led to believe this was to say, you know, either sack Shoesmith or

:26:26.:26:28.

we'll turn this thing on you. People lost their way. I want to read some

:26:29.:26:34.

comments as people heard you speak this morning and most of them are

:26:35.:26:38.

essentially, I'll read one. It is representative. This tweet from

:26:39.:26:46.

Philips, "Sharon Shoesmith is overplaying the victim here. It is

:26:47.:26:50.

enough." Stephen says, "When you were head of children's services,

:26:51.:26:53.

you have to take responsibility, Sharon." Paul thinks that you are

:26:54.:26:59.

shameless, his words. I would urge them to read the book and to read

:27:00.:27:04.

what is set out there. OK. I respect their views. They were led in a

:27:05.:27:10.

direction with information... They might think that's a rather

:27:11.:27:14.

patronising view of them. They are able to make up their own minds?

:27:15.:27:21.

Well, I think the tabloid media can be incredibly, incredibly

:27:22.:27:25.

persuasive. And the British public can be bright and intelligent? Well,

:27:26.:27:29.

Ireland sure there are people who would support my view as well. I

:27:30.:27:34.

haven't come on the programme to dissuade the British public. I

:27:35.:27:40.

respect their view actually. If what they were told was absolutely true

:27:41.:27:43.

that social workers stood by and watched the torture of a child,

:27:44.:27:50.

they're absolutely entitled to say everything like that to me again and

:27:51.:27:56.

again. Sharon shoe Smith. Let me bring you this news. It is to do

:27:57.:28:00.

with something that happened in the early hours of this morning.

:28:01.:28:03.

Officers alerted to a number of protesters who have made their way

:28:04.:28:09.

to London City Airport. Nine people erected a tripod and locked

:28:10.:28:12.

themselves together on the runway. Officers negotiated with the

:28:13.:28:15.

protesters and specialist officers arrived to unlock them. Those are

:28:16.:28:19.

the pictures as you can see from the runway. At approximately 9.30am

:28:20.:28:24.

officers started to arrest the protesters. Well, let's talk to one

:28:25.:28:28.

of the people who have organised this protest and is at the scene.

:28:29.:28:34.

Can you hear me? Hi Victoria. How are you doing? Very well, thank you.

:28:35.:28:39.

Where are you now? I'm right beside London City Airport. Are you on the

:28:40.:28:43.

runway or outside the perimeter? Outside the perimeter. Had you been

:28:44.:28:50.

on the runway earlier or not? No. So what were your co protesters doing

:28:51.:28:56.

this morning and why? So we've called for a shutdown of London City

:28:57.:29:01.

Airport because the climate crisis is a racist crisis. Can you say that

:29:02.:29:05.

again, please? Can you hear me? Yeah, go ahead. Shutdown London City

:29:06.:29:15.

Airport because the climate crisis is a racist crisis. What do you

:29:16.:29:23.

mean? Basically from Newham to New Orleans time and again we see the

:29:24.:29:28.

environmental costs of the aviation industry hitting working class

:29:29.:29:31.

communities of colour first and hardest. Our aviation industry is

:29:32.:29:38.

accounting for 13% of carbon emissions in this country. People

:29:39.:29:49.

from the UK are 28% more likely to be exposed than their white

:29:50.:29:52.

counterparts. It is due to the inequality around the globe. That

:29:53.:29:58.

means that we're trying to put this issue on the map. What's your

:29:59.:30:01.

evidence that black working class people in this country are more

:30:02.:30:05.

exposed to air pollution than white people? Well, they're more likely to

:30:06.:30:13.

live beside airports, beside power plants because they can't afford to

:30:14.:30:20.

live in places that aren't. Right. Forgive me, this is going to sound

:30:21.:30:25.

facetious and some of those people get on planes to go on holiday? Of

:30:26.:30:30.

course. This isn't about those people, those holiday-makers, it is

:30:31.:30:37.

not about that. London City Airport is the embodiment of short haul air

:30:38.:30:41.

travel by the wealthiest in our society. So the average wage of the

:30:42.:30:49.

people that fly out of the airport is ?136,000 euros a year per annum

:30:50.:30:54.

and let's compare that to the fact that 40% of the London Borough of

:30:55.:30:59.

Newham, the residents in the London Borough of Newham is scraping by on

:31:00.:31:05.

under ?20,000 a year. So, you know, the people that can afford to fly

:31:06.:31:10.

out of the airport are creating our climate crisis.

:31:11.:31:17.

And so how is this protest, people lying down on the runway, going to

:31:18.:31:28.

change things? This country has a rich and vibrant history of

:31:29.:31:32.

disobedience and this action has been taken out of regard for human

:31:33.:31:36.

life. It is important for us to put on the map the inequality around the

:31:37.:31:43.

world and the fact that black lives are more likely to suffer as a

:31:44.:31:50.

result of the climate crisis. I think that by disrupting, we are

:31:51.:31:58.

doing that. We are raising, people are talking about this issue. Thank

:31:59.:32:02.

you very much for talking to us. Thank you for your time. Amena, who

:32:03.:32:16.

is outside City Airport in London. She believes the climate crisis is a

:32:17.:32:23.

racist crisis. Next, tabloid story about a senior politician, male

:32:24.:32:26.

prostitutes and allegations about an offer to pay for cocaine.

:32:27.:32:33.

Labour's Keith Vaz is an elected member of parliament who is also

:32:34.:32:35.

chairman of a powerful parliamentary committee that scrutinises

:32:36.:32:37.

government policy on prostitution and drugs.

:32:38.:32:39.

Today members of that committee will be hearing from Mr Vaz

:32:40.:32:41.

on whether he intends to resign or step aside for a bit.

:32:42.:32:44.

The husband and father of two certainly doesn't seem shy

:32:45.:32:47.

about what's happened - he appeared in parliament

:32:48.:32:48.

yesterday to ask a question of the new Home Secretary.

:32:49.:32:51.

But could or should that appearance in the Commons be one

:32:52.:32:54.

Let's hear what the former Labour MP and London mayor

:32:55.:32:57.

Let's talk to Norman's Notes. This meeting between the Home Affairs

:32:58.:33:02.

Select Committee and Mr Vaz, you will give his side of the story and

:33:03.:33:07.

then what? I think Mr Vaz is going to face enormous pressure to step

:33:08.:33:12.

down. He will give his defence, if you like. He will argue that he has

:33:13.:33:17.

not broken any laws, and what he does in his private life is entirely

:33:18.:33:21.

up to him. He will also be critical of the newspaper for paying the

:33:22.:33:27.

prostitutes for this story. But he will face demands to go and if he

:33:28.:33:34.

doesn't go, I'm told that he will be given 24 hours to reflect on his

:33:35.:33:43.

position. The committee will then reconvene and the expectation is

:33:44.:33:46.

that they may then try to hold a vote of no-confidence his position.

:33:47.:33:48.

We are in uncharted territories. Nobody has ever done this before,

:33:49.:33:51.

holding a vote of no-confidence in a committee chairman. They are not

:33:52.:33:56.

even sure whether it would have any authority, whether you can host a

:33:57.:33:59.

committee chairman. But significantly, the move is now

:34:00.:34:04.

hardening against him. I was speaking to a Labour figure on the

:34:05.:34:08.

committee who said that Labour members are not inclined to support

:34:09.:34:14.

it. Now that would seem to me to suggest that he's going to have an

:34:15.:34:19.

awfully difficult job hanging on to his position. I expect that what he

:34:20.:34:25.

will do is say, look, I am prepared to stand aside temporarily but I

:34:26.:34:29.

suspect that will not be enough for members of the committee and I

:34:30.:34:32.

expect that he will recognise that and stand down or he will be forced

:34:33.:34:36.

to stand down tomorrow. Thank you very much. Let's talk to former

:34:37.:34:42.

Labour MP and London mayor, Ken Livingstone, who joins us outside

:34:43.:34:46.

his home in north-west London. Labour members of the Home Affairs

:34:47.:34:50.

Select Committee are not inclined to support Keith Vaz. Do you? I think

:34:51.:34:56.

someone's private life should be private. I remember 35 years ago in

:34:57.:35:00.

the run-up to the GRC election, reporters came to me with evidence

:35:01.:35:05.

that the Tory leader, my opponent, was having an affair. They got

:35:06.:35:09.

pictures of women going in and out of the flat he was renting and I

:35:10.:35:12.

said, I will not run with that, we're running on the issue of

:35:13.:35:19.

cutting fares. I regret to hear that the Sunday Mirror have decided that

:35:20.:35:23.

this is more important than the serious issues such as the economy.

:35:24.:35:27.

He is the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee which conducts

:35:28.:35:31.

enquiries into drugs and prostitution. He is alleged to have

:35:32.:35:35.

offered to fund the buying of cup game and to have used a male

:35:36.:35:41.

prostitutes. Is that not a conflict of interest? -- the buying of

:35:42.:35:45.

cocaine. Let's see what turns out to be true. I could recount all the

:35:46.:35:51.

stories that you will have read about me in the press that turned

:35:52.:35:54.

out not to be true. I can't recall being at Labour Party conferences

:35:55.:35:58.

and watching journalists going up to the hotels with prostitutes they had

:35:59.:36:06.

picked up. All across our society, people pay for sex. I do not approve

:36:07.:36:11.

of it and I do not do it myself but I do not think it is illegal. If it

:36:12.:36:15.

is true, do you accept that is a conflict of interest? I don't think

:36:16.:36:23.

the fact, if it turns to be true that he has paid for sex, I don't

:36:24.:36:28.

think that prevents him from conducting an enquiry into

:36:29.:36:30.

prostitution and the problems of prostitution. The of prostitution or

:36:31.:36:34.

what happens to the poorer prostitutes, not so much their

:36:35.:36:39.

clients. -- Barak prostitutes. Are you concerned that a colleague of

:36:40.:36:44.

yours is allegedly exploiting young immigrant men for sex. Let's see

:36:45.:36:50.

what turns out to be true about all of this. I have known Keith Vaz for

:36:51.:36:55.

40 years. He has been a good campaigner on a range of issues

:36:56.:36:59.

about social justice and in all that time, I have never recalled him

:37:00.:37:02.

talking about sex or anything like that, or drugs. He was always

:37:03.:37:06.

focused on what he could do to make life better for his constituents or

:37:07.:37:10.

the wider community. If it is true, surely that would alarm you, that he

:37:11.:37:15.

was exploiting such young men, potentially vulnerable young men for

:37:16.:37:20.

sex? Let's see how vulnerable they are. The reality is, do you judge

:37:21.:37:26.

someone's political career on the basis of one incident like this or

:37:27.:37:32.

the total worth of over four decades? Everybody makes mistakes.

:37:33.:37:39.

Some newspapers in Britain today have reported that he has visited

:37:40.:37:45.

male prostitutes before. Let's see what turns out to be true. The fact

:37:46.:37:49.

is, don't judge somebody on one mistake they make in their life or

:37:50.:37:53.

even a couple of mistakes. It is the total that he has done for other

:37:54.:37:57.

people, in his own constituency and up and down Britain. He has always

:37:58.:38:02.

been on the side of justice and that cannot just be swept away by one

:38:03.:38:06.

mistake. Worth repeating that they are allegations as you rightly say.

:38:07.:38:11.

Could I ask you briefly about your own position? You are still

:38:12.:38:14.

suspended from the Labour Party for bringing the party into disrepute

:38:15.:38:18.

over comments he made about Hitler and Zionism. Have you had any

:38:19.:38:22.

conversation with the party about a way back? Basically, it is no four

:38:23.:38:29.

months since I was suspended and I am still waiting for the committee

:38:30.:38:35.

to sit down and decide whether what I said was true or not. I think they

:38:36.:38:39.

are putting it off because the simple fact is that I have so much

:38:40.:38:44.

evidence that what I was saying is true. Particularly striking, if you

:38:45.:38:48.

go to the Holocaust memorial Linda Rougemont, one of the pamphlets they

:38:49.:38:51.

sell to tourists is about the deal that Hitler did with the Zionists in

:38:52.:38:55.

the 1930s. I don't think anyone can accuse the Holocaust Memorial

:38:56.:39:00.

management of being anti-Semitic. You think they are delaying it

:39:01.:39:03.

because there is so much evidence that it is true? So much evidence.

:39:04.:39:09.

You probably know that the board of deputies of British Jews want Labour

:39:10.:39:13.

to expel you immediately attribute reiterated your views on Hitler and

:39:14.:39:19.

Zionism on Vanessa Feltz' radio programme. I am not surprised,

:39:20.:39:24.

because if you look at the evidence that the chairman of the board of

:39:25.:39:29.

deputies gave to Keith Vaz's committee, he opened by saying that

:39:30.:39:32.

for Ken Livingstone to have said that Hitler was a Zionist is deeply

:39:33.:39:36.

concerning. If I had said that, I would not just have apologised, I

:39:37.:39:41.

will just gone to my doctor to check if I was in the first stages of

:39:42.:39:46.

dementia. To suggest that is mad. He loathed and feared Jews all his life

:39:47.:39:49.

but he did do a deal with the movement in the 1930s and that led

:39:50.:39:55.

to 66,000 German Jews going to what is now Israel and escaping the

:39:56.:40:05.

Holocaust. I will read you a quote from Marie Van Dozzell, vice

:40:06.:40:08.

president of the board of deputies. Ken Livingstone seems to want to

:40:09.:40:12.

rewrite history to make it seem like Zionism was responsible for the

:40:13.:40:17.

Holocaust, which is as false as it is tacitly offensive. Every day that

:40:18.:40:20.

Labour does not expel him is a stain on the party. It is quite simple. Go

:40:21.:40:30.

on to the websites, check. You can see the interview with Norm and

:40:31.:40:33.

Finkelstein defending everything I said. There are dozens and dozens of

:40:34.:40:37.

books by academics looking at the fact that Hitler signed a deal and

:40:38.:40:42.

worked with the Zionist movement throughout the 1930s. I have not

:40:43.:40:50.

even criticise that. The Zionist movement had to deal with the fact

:40:51.:40:54.

that Hitler was running Germany and if they were going to save the Jews,

:40:55.:40:58.

they would have to do some sort of deal. Are you bothered that by

:40:59.:41:01.

repeating your views you are hurting Jewish people? I said at the time,

:41:02.:41:05.

if anybody has been offended by what I said, I am truly sorry but I have

:41:06.:41:10.

been struck by a number of people who come up to me on the street and

:41:11.:41:13.

say, I am Jewish and I know that what you said is true, do not give

:41:14.:41:19.

into this bullying. The simple fact is that, and the reason I expected

:41:20.:41:23.

that we have waited so long for this hearing, is that the people doing

:41:24.:41:28.

work on this now that it is true. What is sending people, apart from

:41:29.:41:34.

anything else, is the conflating of Hitler with Zionism. I am not

:41:35.:41:40.

conflating Hitler with Zionism. I am simply saying that he did a deal

:41:41.:41:45.

which was signed off about three or four months after he became

:41:46.:41:49.

Germany's Chancellor, and he stuck to that deal right up until 1940.

:41:50.:41:54.

During that period, 66,000 German Jews were moved to Palestine. Also,

:41:55.:42:03.

Adolf Eichmann negotiated a deal with the Zionist movements to give

:42:04.:42:07.

them guns to use in their underground army. He passed a law

:42:08.:42:12.

that the only two flags to be flown in Germany were the swastika and the

:42:13.:42:17.

Star of David. It is not just a one-off thing. There was a working

:42:18.:42:21.

relationship over the 1930s. You cannot blame the Zionists. They were

:42:22.:42:26.

in Germany and they had a horrendous and brutal government that they had

:42:27.:42:29.

no option but to work with. Thank you for your time this morning. Ken

:42:30.:42:35.

Livingstone, former mayor of London and former Labour MP expressing

:42:36.:42:39.

support for his embattled colleague, Keith Vaz, still fighting for his

:42:40.:42:43.

political life and repeating his views that Hitler supported Zionism.

:42:44.:42:58.

Tomorrow, in London, we're holding a big audience programme

:42:59.:43:00.

As you know Junior doctors are not be going on strike

:43:01.:43:04.

But they will be going on strike for a week in a month's time.

:43:05.:43:09.

And then again in another month and so on.

:43:10.:43:11.

just postponed, and tomorrow we want to try and work out how

:43:12.:43:16.

You are very welcome to join us, to take part - whether you're

:43:17.:43:21.

a junior doctor, you work in the NHS, you've been treated

:43:22.:43:24.

in hospital or are going to be affected by the 5-day strikes.

:43:25.:43:27.

If you'd like to be part of the programme to share

:43:28.:43:29.

your views - do email [email protected] to apply.

:43:30.:43:31.

And hopefully we will see you in the morning. Also tomorrow, the

:43:32.:43:33.

Paralympics start in Rio. The build-up has been fraught with

:43:34.:43:34.

problems. It's been dogged by controversy

:43:35.:43:44.

so far - hardly any tickets have been sold, there have

:43:45.:43:47.

been rows over funding, rows over the classification of how

:43:48.:43:49.

disabled athletes are - which has led to one of Britain's

:43:50.:43:51.

top Paralympic medal hopes - Bethany Woodward - quitting

:43:52.:43:54.

the games and unlike the Olympics, all Russian athletes are banned over

:43:55.:43:57.

allegations of state-run doping. With the London Paralympic Games

:43:58.:43:59.

widely accepted as the best Paralympic Games ever,

:44:00.:44:01.

will Rio disappoint? Or will rivalry in

:44:02.:44:03.

competition overshadow Here's the top ten things we need

:44:04.:44:04.

to know about the games. She was diagnosed with multiple

:44:05.:46:46.

sclerosis in the mid-1990s and took up swimming as part

:46:47.:46:49.

of a physiotherapy to help Also joining us from

:46:50.:46:51.

Coventry is Kester. He's the dad of Charlotte Moore

:46:52.:46:56.

who has been selected for her first Paralympic Games

:46:57.:47:00.

with the wheelchair Charlotte was diagnosed

:47:01.:47:02.

with neuroblastoma, a malignant cancer, when she was

:47:03.:47:09.

just 12-weeks-old. And on the line is Steve,

:47:10.:47:14.

the dad of four-time Paralympic Ellie was born with achondroplasia,

:47:15.:47:16.

a genetic mutation Steve is at Heathrow Airport. You

:47:17.:47:28.

are about to fly off there. How are you feeling? How is Ellie feeling?

:47:29.:47:35.

She's positive and can't wait to get at it at the moment. The last time

:47:36.:47:40.

we had communication with her which was an hour ago! How hopeful is she

:47:41.:47:46.

that she can achieve similar success this time around? Well, she is

:47:47.:47:51.

hopeful. We are all hopeful and we all believe that she can, but she

:47:52.:47:55.

has got the biggest challenge of her swimming career coming up over the

:47:56.:48:02.

next two weeks, I think, this Ukrainian and Australian girl, the

:48:03.:48:06.

Chinese, you never know that they're going to do until they turn up. I

:48:07.:48:10.

think she has got, it will be tough for the next couple of weeks, but

:48:11.:48:15.

she's capable and she will certainly give it everything she has got. Four

:48:16.:48:18.

medals last time and two golds, wasn't it? Yes. Brilliant. Yeah,

:48:19.:48:24.

hopefully she will be. OK. Hopefully she will come back with some.

:48:25.:48:28.

Marcus, hello. Hello. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. How does

:48:29.:48:33.

Jo go from swimming to archery then? It is one of those things. She had a

:48:34.:48:38.

wonderful journey with her swimming and had great success, but I think

:48:39.:48:44.

perhaps the lure and ambition of Paralympics enabled her to start a

:48:45.:48:48.

new journey and head that direction. I think she won European and world

:48:49.:48:52.

medals since going professional? Yeah, she has. She has done very

:48:53.:48:56.

well. It has been a wonderful journey over the last three years

:48:57.:49:01.

and her performans seem to improve constantly and as a result she has

:49:02.:49:06.

been able to win the medals. Chances of getting a medal at the

:49:07.:49:11.

Paralympics in Rio, what do you reckon? It is about her performance

:49:12.:49:18.

and as long as she delivers the performance that she has been doing

:49:19.:49:22.

over the last three years, she will be in the shake-up at the end and

:49:23.:49:26.

that's what she has been doing in all the training. Do you get

:49:27.:49:31.

together as a family? Is there a big family when she is competing? We

:49:32.:49:35.

catch up whenever we can and we caught up before she left for Rio

:49:36.:49:40.

and like everybody else, we're staying in contact through

:49:41.:49:43.

electronic means and she is down at Rio now and I saw lovely pictures of

:49:44.:49:50.

the area they will be shooting in, in the coming weeks. Tell us about

:49:51.:49:59.

Charlotte, your daughter? Yes, Charlotte was diagnosed with neuro

:50:00.:50:03.

blast tomb ma when she was very young, when she was a baby. She has

:50:04.:50:09.

been very active. We took her along to a wheelchair tennis camp when she

:50:10.:50:11.

was four-and-a-half and she loved it. She was playing around and

:50:12.:50:15.

starting to hit the ball at a young age. So she started playing

:50:16.:50:21.

wheelchair tennis and ended up racing when she was five or six when

:50:22.:50:25.

she did some racing and she carried on doing those two sports and ended

:50:26.:50:31.

up joining, she was on the Great Britain Junior programme for tennis

:50:32.:50:40.

and was, she won the London, the Virgin London Wheelchair Mini

:50:41.:50:44.

Marathon with her racing, she was a good racer and good tennis player.

:50:45.:50:49.

Then she started playing wheelchair basketball when she was eight. She

:50:50.:50:56.

played for the local team in Coventry, Coventry Crusaders and got

:50:57.:51:01.

spotted by the British wheelchair basketball set-up and it progressed

:51:02.:51:04.

from there, playing for Great Britain at the age of 14, I think,

:51:05.:51:11.

she was in 2013, playing out in Frankfurt was her first major

:51:12.:51:13.

international at the Europeans there. I don't know if you heard

:51:14.:51:22.

about Bethany Woodward who was a London 2012 silver medallist, I'll

:51:23.:51:26.

ask all of you this, she claimed more able-bodied athletes are being

:51:27.:51:29.

wrongly classified to boost medal prospects. Steve, have you heard

:51:30.:51:33.

about this? What's your view on this? Well, there is certainly a lot

:51:34.:51:46.

in the swimming press about it causing misinformation and there is

:51:47.:51:51.

certainly a lot written about it and there have been one or two

:51:52.:51:54.

high-profile incidents of it, I think. I'm sure it happens, but I

:51:55.:52:01.

don't think, certainly from Eleanor's point of view, I don't

:52:02.:52:04.

think there is anything that affects her, but I think it happens, but it

:52:05.:52:10.

is just part of disability sport or Paralympic sport, I guess. Right.

:52:11.:52:15.

But it is not good, but it certainly seems to be out there. Marcus, is it

:52:16.:52:21.

part of Paralympic sport? I think like everything, there has to be a

:52:22.:52:26.

process of classifying everybody and a lot of work is done to make these

:52:27.:52:32.

systems as fair and as detailed as they possibly can. To have that

:52:33.:52:37.

level playing field for all the athletes. Always though, I think at

:52:38.:52:46.

all Olympics historically there are small issues that come up. It is

:52:47.:52:50.

unfortunate for the athlete, hopefully it doesn't have an impact

:52:51.:52:53.

on the athletes that are competing and they are able to enjoy what a

:52:54.:53:00.

wonderful spectacle of theoriy Paralympics. What about you Keser?

:53:01.:53:04.

It is a difficult one. If I think about wheelchair basketball, it is

:53:05.:53:08.

classifications from a one-point player which is a player carrying

:53:09.:53:14.

the most disability if you like, the least function, right through to 4.5

:53:15.:53:22.

which is a player who is reasonably able-bodied with one disability, but

:53:23.:53:26.

nothing affecting their spine or their trunk, but it is a range. It

:53:27.:53:31.

is a spectrum and within classification point, there is a

:53:32.:53:35.

one-point player, the difference between a one-point player and a 1.5

:53:36.:53:41.

or a two, it has to be a change and you're always going to have a player

:53:42.:53:44.

at the bottom of the range and a player at the top and a number of

:53:45.:53:49.

players in the middle and it can be difficult for the class fires, I

:53:50.:53:54.

think, to know exactly what they're looking at and if somebody wants to

:53:55.:53:58.

try and cheat the system, hopefully they can't if there is the right

:53:59.:54:02.

review panel in place and they've got the right evidence apart from

:54:03.:54:06.

observing the player on and off the court, but looking at good medical

:54:07.:54:11.

records as well and trying to make a judgment, but I think it is

:54:12.:54:16.

difficult. It is a spectrum, but trying to achieve a level playing

:54:17.:54:20.

field is never easy and I suppose you're always going to have

:54:21.:54:23.

controversial cases, you know, at either end of the spectrum really.

:54:24.:54:27.

Listen, thank you all so much. Thank you, Marcus. Thank you Kester, thank

:54:28.:54:32.

you Steve and good luck to Jo and Charlotte and Ellie. Thank you.

:54:33.:54:38.

Throughout the programme today seven-year-olds Helen,

:54:39.:54:44.

Bea and Lottie and Kit have been reading a new series of JK

:54:45.:54:47.

Rowling short stories out today...which feature some

:54:48.:54:50.

of her characters from Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and Wizardy.

:54:51.:54:58.

It feels like days ago now kids. How is it going, Kit? It is going very

:54:59.:55:04.

well. Can you say that with more enthusiasm? The book is very good.

:55:05.:55:12.

Tell me the book you're reading? It is an uncomplete and unreliable

:55:13.:55:19.

guide to Hogwarts it goes into all the in-depth bits which really

:55:20.:55:23.

serious fans will want to know, you know, how that was made, how JK got

:55:24.:55:30.

the idea for that and for further into the book it explains the

:55:31.:55:37.

Philosopher's Stone, how that's an actual thing and not something she

:55:38.:55:43.

made up. It really exists? She took the idea from alcamy. Have you

:55:44.:55:56.

enjoyed it? Yeah, I have enjoyed and it is definitely interesting because

:55:57.:55:59.

it answers the questions, some of the fans might have about the book.

:56:00.:56:04.

I think it is really good actually. Have you reached the end? Yes. Mark

:56:05.:56:09.

out of ten? As a moderate fan it is a good eight. But if you're serious,

:56:10.:56:17.

you need to read all three probably! How have you been doing Lottie?

:56:18.:56:23.

Good. Last time we spoke you were up to 30%. I read two books. Two books!

:56:24.:56:30.

You are pulling my leg Lottie! There is no way you've read two books in

:56:31.:56:36.

an hour. She has. Seriously! What did you think? Good. Which one did

:56:37.:56:51.

you prefer? Mm. It was the... No, it was that one. Hog wart's Of Heroism.

:56:52.:57:07.

I'm on 98%. Perfect timing. What do you reckon? Really good. Can you

:57:08.:57:18.

give me your best bit or not? No. Helen, how has it been for you this

:57:19.:57:22.

morning? Have you spent better mornings in your classroom at

:57:23.:57:26.

school? LAUGHTER

:57:27.:57:30.

Have you enjoyed the book? Yeah, OK. So in terms of real Harry Potter

:57:31.:57:35.

fans, these are perfect. Do you not ever think, enough of Harry Potter.

:57:36.:57:40.

They don't half carry it on and cash it on it? I mean, it is a series

:57:41.:57:45.

that's been going and going, you've got games and movies. It has been

:57:46.:57:53.

very successful, but at the point of view of a reader, it is amazing. It

:57:54.:57:57.

has got so big, that just shows how good it is and how entrancing it is.

:57:58.:58:04.

I guess it deserves the praise it has got and with the carry on like

:58:05.:58:08.

these, I don't know if there will be more books, possibly, yeah, I think

:58:09.:58:13.

we should carry on. If you are wondering how they are allowed to be

:58:14.:58:20.

here, their teachers are on an in-set day! Thank you very much for

:58:21.:58:25.

watching today. We are having a debate tomorrow on

:58:26.:58:29.

junior doctors, do join us then. BUZZER

:58:30.:58:33.

Top Class.

:58:34.:58:35.