06/09/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


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Good morning. Welcome to the programme. This morning, facing up


to 99 years in an American prison and $9 million in fines, an autistic


student from Sussex accused of hacking into US government websites


and stealing personal details of hundreds of thousands of employees


tells us he fears for his life if he is extradited to the States. There


is a war on whistle-blowers and activists on going in the United


States. War is not too heavy a word. It is barely possible that Gary


Wilmot receive a trial in the United States. The pressure to agree to a


plea bargain is enormous. And Larry is facing charges in three separate


courts. It makes it almost impossible to go to trial. Will he


receive a fair trial? No. He will not receive a trial at all.


We'll bring you an exclusive interview with Lauri Love -


who finds out next week if he'll be extradited to the states.


Also on the programme, the woman vilified after the death


of Baby Peter Connolly - the ex- head of Children's Services


in the north London borough of Haringey where Peter died,


Sharon Shoesmith will tell us what lessons she believes should be


A series of JK Rowling short stories based on Hogwarts School


of Witchcraft and Wizardry have just been released -


and we've got a group of children here who are about to get stuck in.


Good morning. What do you think of it so far? It's good. It follows the


story pretty well and I cannot wait to read further. We're told that the


books will take an hour to read so we will come back to the children


throughout the programme and they will give us their verdict at the


end. Welcome to the programme,


we're live until each weekday morning until 11 on BBC 2,


the BBC News Channel and online. We'll bring you the latest breaking


news and developing stories. At around 10:30 this morning,


the radical preacher Anjem Choudary will be sentenced for


encouraging people to support He could face up


to ten years in jail. We'll bring you that sentence


as soon as it's handed down Plus, former mayor of


London Ken Livingstone tells us "nobody should care" what Keith Vaz


has or hasn't been up to with Do get in touch on all the stories


we're talking about this morning - use the hashtag VictoriaLive


and if you text, you will be charged More than 200 people have been


prosecuted under the new 'revenge porn' law, according to figures


from the Crown Prosecution Service. It became an offence to share


private sexual photographs or films of someone without their permission


in England and Wales last April. Today's report is the first time


cases of this kind of crime have The Director of Public Prosecutions


is warning they're part of a growing trend of crimes committed


through social media. Of course there was a flip side


because it means that it allows us to really trace the evidence, to


take it and use it in court. So it does also allow us to really build


strong cases. Joanna is in the BBC


Newsroom with a summary The retailer Sports Direct -


that was condemned over working practices and zero hours contracts -


is to improve pay and conditions for staff at its main


distribution centre. An independent review


into its working practices found serious shortcomings -


which Sports Direct Staff at its warehouse are now to be


put on guaranteed hours The Labour MP Keith Vaz will today


be urged to stand down as chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee


- after newspaper reports Mr Vaz is due to discuss his future


with the Commons Home Affairs He's reported to be facing a vote


of no confidence. The BBC understands senior figures


on the committee are consulting Commons clerks about what powers


they have to force Mr Vaz out. A BBC investigation has found that


drugs that used to be known as legal highs


are being manufactured and imported into the UK from China


on an industrial scale. The drugs used to be available over


the counter on the high street but were banned in May


after being linked It's now feared that China


is becoming a retailer to the world for these


psychoactive substances. UK police say they're trying to stop


the shipments coming in, British Airways passengers face


delays after an technical glitch Angry travellers complained of hours


queuing at airports, and some reported they had been told


the problem was worldwide. The company's apologised


to customers, saying their IT teams A group of activists


is disrupting flights The protest, by a number


of Black Lives Matter demonstrators, The police are there trying


to defuse the situation. The Black Lives Matter movement says


it wants to highlight the UK's environmental impact


on the lives of black people, saying the 'climate crisis


is a racist crisis'. One of Britain's most notorious


radical clerics - Anjem Choudary - Choudhary, who's 49,


was convicted last month of inciting support for the terror group Islamic


State. He could face up to


10 years in prison. President Obama has cancelled


a meeting with the controversial Philippine President Rodrigo


Duterte, after he was Both presidents are among leaders


gathering for the Association of Southeast Asian


Nations summit in Laos. Rodrigo Duterte has


insulted the Pope, the UN, foreign ambassadors,


and now the President Just before flying off


to the summit, he was asked what he would say to Mr Obama's


questions about human rights abuses. I am a president of a sovereign


state, and we have long ceased I do not have any master,


except the Filipino people. Don't ask just throwaway


questions and statements. 2,500 people have been killed


in just over two months Most are said to be drug users


or dealers, but no one Many Filipinos are pleased that


something is being done about lawlessness on the streets,


but many others are horrified They want the international


community to tell Mr Duterte But the president is having


none of that. The campaign against


drugs will continue. Plenty will be killed until the last


pusher is out of the streets. Mr Obama played down the insult,


but his staff cancelled to do is to talk to their Philippine


counterparts to find out is this in fact a time when we can have some


constructive, productive Both leaders are now in Laos,


and both will attend a summit. Everyone's waiting for the next


burst of undiplomatic language. A huge forest fire which has


destroyed nearly 800 acres of land on the Costa Blanca in Spain,


has been brought under control 300 firefighters tackled the blaze


which was about 75 miles south-east More than 1,400 people


have been evacuated from their homes since Sunday evening, with those


near Javea the worst affected. The Spanish authorities say


they suspect the fire Scotland's First Minster Nicola


Sturgeon will set out her programme Ms Sturgeon has described her plans


as "ambitious", and is expected to tell the Scottish parliament


that the focus will be on improving Researchers say that taking


Vitamin D could reduce the risk of severe asthma attacks when taken


with traditional treatments. A review of nine studies found fewer


attacks needing hospital treatment in patients using the supplement,


which is not strictly a vitamin but is supposed to echo the effects


of sunlight on the skin. Here's our Health Correspondent,


Adam Brimelow. Nearly 5.5 million people


in the UK have asthma. every day, severe asthma attacks


cause on average more than 180 hospital admissions


and three deaths. In this review, researchers found


that giving vitamin D supplements alongside usual medication reduced


the risk of attacks requiring A or hospital admission from 6%


to 3% and fewer cases But there was no effect on day


to day asthma symptoms. The authors say the findings


are exciting but more Although we showed


a protective effect we were not able to identify


whether everyone benefited from vitamin D or whether it was


restricted to those with lower And for that reason,


we are now doing further research We can get vitamin D


from food such as oily fish, eggs and fortified cereals,


but for most people the bulk of it is made from the action


of sunlight on the skin. UK health officials advise people


to consider taking vitamin D supplements in autumn and winter


to protect bone and muscle health. But at much lower levels


than used in this review. The authors say people should see


a pharmacist or a GP before That's a summary of


the latest BBC News. In a few moments time we will talk


to Lauri Love, the 31-year-old student studying engineering,


accused of hacking into various US government websites, the Nasa


website, the Federal Reserve and so on. We have already got comments


from you about his case. This is an e-mail from Peter. Autism or


Asberger's did not prevent Lauri Love committing this crime. It was


not a factor. And along with threats of taking his own wife, it should be


ignored in prosecuting him. If they have any bearing, which I do not


believe they do, then it is in sentencing that these pleas should


be considered. This campaign is fatuous and misguided, and a crime


should always be prosecuted. This tweet from Andrew. Yes, he should be


prosecuted but he should be subject to UK law, end of. It would not work


the other way around, that is for sure. That is in reference to the


extradition was between the UK and the US. Another tweet, don't hack


into computers. And this from Paul: The expedition legislation is


grotesque and unfair. And we will talk to Lauri Love in the next few


minutes. Throughout the programme,


we'll talk to our group who're currently devouring


the latest series of short stories JK Rowling has released based


on Hogwarts School of They are short stories, and these


children here reckon that they might have got most of the way through by


the end of the programme. They will tell us what they are like. If you


are getting in touch, and your texting, you will be charged at the


standard network rate. Time for the sport. Andy Murray, is the favourite


to win the US open? Is looking very good. He dropped just five Games


against Grigor Dimitrov and he will now face Kei Nishikori in the next


match. His route to the final will include a Novak Djokavic. If he is


to get there, he is playing better tennis, out of themselves and Novak


Djokavic. Novak Djokavic went out early in the Olympics, and early at


Wimbledon. Murray won the Olympics and Wimbledon, so he is playing the


better tennis of the two at the moment. Djokovic might be the


favourite but you have to fancy Andy Murray to go on and win a second US


open title. A word on Serena Williams as well. She is also


through to the quarterfinals, and she has no won more matches at the


Grand Slams than any other player. 308 matches. She has surpassed the


record previously held by Roger Federer. She had already beating


Martina Navratilova's record in the women's game. It goes to show how


good Serena Williams is and her dominance of the women's game


continues. Wales, after last night, do we think they will qualify for


the next World Cup? It was going to be interesting to see how they would


play last night, following the incredible success they achieved at


the Euros, reaching the semifinals. Were they going to suffer from a


hangover? They were not last night. They beat Moldova 4-0 last night.


They were always expected to beat Moldova, with the lowly standing


they have in the Fifa rankings. This was one of Gareth Bale's two goals,


Joe Allen with one of the others. Gareth Bale is no four goals short


of the all-time goal-scoring Welsh record held by Ian Rush. And at 27,


you have to say that he will surpass that by some distance. Hugely


impressive from Wales and Gareth Bale. I think the real test will be


when they face Austria in their next match in October. A stern test. And


Rory McIlroy, winning for the first time in a while? It has been over a


year since he won a PGA title. A significant win, not only with the


Ryder Cup around the corner. But interestingly, this championship


forms part of the FedEx Cup play-offs, the second tournament out


of four. If he was to go on and top those standings, he is fourth after


this win, and if he tops the standings at the conclusion, he is


in line for a windfall of ?7 million. I am not saying that


golfers are in it for the money but that is a significant carrot on the


end of a rather expensive piece of string.


Is that it for the moment? It is, yes. Until we speak to you again in


15 minutes time. Thank you, John. Next, an autistic man accused


of hacking into US government computers tells this programme


he would consider killing himself if Lauri Love, who has


Asperger's Syndrome, is accused of stealing huge amounts


of data from US agencies including the Federal Reserve,


the Department of Defence, American authorities want


the 31-year-old to stand trial in the US over


charges of cyber-hacking. His lawyers say it could result


in a sentence of up to 99 years Lauri Love is here this morning


and in a moment we'll talk to him. But first let's take a look back


at how all this began. Three years ago, somebody posing


as a UPS courier turned up 28-year-old Lauri Love was called


downstairs to sign for the package. It was all a deception,


a police sting to catch a man now accused of hacking into the FBI,


the US central bank and America's COMPUTERISED VOICE: Greetings,


citizens of the world, It's suspected Love was part


of Anonymous, a secretive network of hackers which targets


governments and companies. They tend to happen so much


because they want to gain from their hacking, they do it


because one of their beliefs is that all corporate information should be


in the public domain, so if people are storing personal


data and private data, If they think people are behaving


badly, they want to that. Two weeks ago today,


a line was crossed. Two weeks ago today,


Aaron Swartz was killed. Love is accused of being one of four


Anonymous hackers behind Operation Last Resort,


an online protest which followed the suicide of a high-profile


internet hacktivist. With Aaron's death, we can


wait no longer. The time has come to show


the United States Department of Justice and its affiliates,


the true meaning of infiltration. As payback, it's alleged Anonymous


broke into computer systems belonging to US agencies,


including the FBI, The Americans say they have evidence


Lauri Love himself downloaded thousands of staff records,


including credit card details. He allegedly wrote to other


hackers with the message, There is no suggestion, though,


that he made money from this or that But I think it is more


the embarrassment issue, more that people want to send


a message, saying, if you try to break into our systems,


then we are going to come for you. Certainly, there is no reason why


anybody who calls themselves a hacker or even a security


researcher should be getting into things


like Nasa and the Federal Reserve. It's not the sort of thing


you should be doing. The US Army Investigation Command


said they traced some of the attacks back through an internet address


in Romania, paid for by a PayPal After his arrest, he was questioned


by Britain's National Crime Agency, but he's never been charged


in the UK and investigation Instead, he is wanted by US


authorities for accessing US There is a war on whistle-blowers


and hacktivists ongoing And I don't think war is too


heavy a word for that. Love's supporters claim


if he is extradited he could be sentenced to 99


years in a US prison. Other hackers in his position say


they have been forced into a plea deal, a reduced sentence of ten


years or more to avoid In the UK, the maximum sentence


for a computer crime like this I think it's fairly possible that


Lauri won't receive any trial The pressures to agree


to a plea-bargain are enormous anyway and Lauri is facing


charges in three separate It makes it almost


impossible to go to trial. No, he would not receive


any trial at all. Lauri Love, then, is


now fighting extradition. What a court hearing in July,


his defence team argued he suffers from depression and Asperger


syndrome, a form of autism. Lawyers for the US said


he was using that as a shield On the face of it, this case looks


similar to Gary McKinnon's, another alleged British hacker


diagnosed with Asperger's. His decade-long battle


against extradition to the US ended in 2012, when Theresa May,


then the Home Secretary, blocked the US request


on health grounds. Mr McKinnon's extradition would give


rise to such a high risk It is now judges who decide these


things, not politicians. The idea was to rebalance


and extradition deal with the United States that many


felt was unfair. The Love case is likely to be


the first real test of the new law, The judge will make her decision


public on 16th September. We can talk exclusively


to Lauri Love now. Good morning to you. Thank you for


coming on the programme. Thank you for having me. How do you respond in


broad terms to these accusations? I'm hoping if if the extradition is


refuse, there has been no evidence provided over the three years. If


the forum has changed the law, we can continue the process into a UK


court. How difficult has it been then to try and fight this when you


haven't been presented with any particular evidence against you?


Yeah, I mean, it is difficult to face very serious allegations for


three years and not have any due process, ideally in a society, if


somebody is accused of something they're charged and they can see the


evidence, they can formulate a defence and they can have their day


in court. The issue is if I were to be extradited to America, there


would be no day in court as was alluded to earlier because I had


been made an offer I couldn't refuse in terms of plea bargaining. Why do


you say a plea bargain would be coercive? The legal experts from the


United States calculated that I could be facing up to 99 years if


there are three trials and the charges are presented in a certain


way. The Department of Justice then makes an offer where they'll present


different charges and they will recommend a lower sentence. The


problem is 19 out of 20 people take this offer. I think that maybe


demonstrates there is some problems with that system. Why? Because if 19


out of 20 people never have a trial, I'm not sure if that's really due


process and I'm not sure if it is really justice. Can you get your


head around the figure of 99 years? It is quite absurd. Anymore than a


few decades, you don't see an end to it and because of the poor


conditions in US prisons with people with mental health difficulties I


would be at risk of dying in some unfortunate way.


Right. That's a serious fear for you, isn't it? Yeah. This was argued


in the extradition hearing because of depression and Asperger's and


because the US prisons, they're don't provide therapies. You are


kept in a small room by yourself. Here in the UK they would attempt to


make contact with families and support the person who is at risk.


The barrister acting for the CPS during your extradition hearing


accused you of using your disabilities as a shield, what's


your response? It is upsetting. They didn't have a better argument to


make, but it was offensive to the legal experts who are eminent in


their field and it is offensive to me that someone who faced


difficulties through to mental health for all my life and reactions


like that are part of the reason why there is such a stigma around it


that stops people getting the support they need. A viewer said,


"Put the autism, put the Asperger's to one side. Don't dot alleged crime


then." Well, again that's a matter for the court. As was mentioned in


the introduction, the reason we're having this conversation is because


there was a tragic death of a young man and he died because of that


coercive plea bargaining. If the extradition is refused it will give


people an opportunity to make progress. Let me read messages from


people watching you around the country. A viewer says, "It is so


important to understand the effect of stress on people with autism." .


Help us to keep finding the answers." Tia says, "Lauri Love


should not be extradited. It is so sad he is autistic. There is no need


for harshness." Jamie says, "I have 100% support for Lauri Love." Tony


says, "Lauri should be subject to British law. The crime was allegedly


committed in the UK and therefore, our laws should apply." I think


there is a question of sovereignty here. In the UK we have a junctional


court system and a good prison system and the US shouldn't step in


when they don't like the results. We have an extradition treaty between


the UK and the US. Lots of people complained about it. Nobody seems to


have been able to change it. It was dined by David Blunkett several


years ago. He made comments about it since. That is the way it is. Yeah,


it is. Efforts have been brought about to reform it. The US haven't


needed to bring any evidence in the extradition hearing. People would


say that's absurd that I could be taken out of that country without


anything being proven. I hope the reforms will be successful and if


the extradition is refused it might promote those causes again. Are you


a hacker? Yeah, I would describe myself as a hacker. A hacker uses


technology and takes it apart and puts it together in interesting


ways. I work as an information security consultant. I hope


companies keep their networks secure. Have you hacked illegally?


That would be a question for the court. All right. Have you ever


hacked on to the banner of Anonymous? I mean part of the idea


of Anonymous is to not be affiliated in a name sense. If anyone said they


were a member of Anonymous they missed the point.


People will read into that answer what they will. In terms of the


three years that this has been hanging over you, what impact has it


had on you? What impact has it had on your family, your parents? I


really feel for my parents who have to worry and they have the stress of


this. For myself, I have eczema and I scratch my face and it bleeds and


I will have infections and I don't get a good night's sleep often.


Stress compounds other immune system problems. So it would be nice to


have less stress, but this is an important process that may


potentially result in some good so that keeps me going.


Do you have any steer from your legal team about what the outcome of


the extradition hearing will be? We will hear next week. Presumably


you're hopeful, of course... I'm guardedly optimistic on the basis


the US didn't present a case. We had 14 expert witnesses on US prison


conditions, on mental health and on the sentencing disparity between the


UK and the US. Not very much effort was made apart from by the barrister


to cast doubt on my mental health conditions. So I would hope that the


judge has enough to make the correct decision to refuse the extradition.


This tweet from a viewer, "The extradition treaty with the US is


one-sided. Their sentencing is ridiculous, but I don't think


Asperger's is an excuse. But have a trial in England." Ian says, "If the


hacker has broken UK law, prosecute. If not, do nothing." Another viewer


says, "I don't think he should face extradition, the protection of the


various sites should be increased and if he can get in them, so can


others." ." An Aoun mus text, "Mr Love should be treated with


compassion because he is ill. He should be involved in computer


security." You are? If the networks were compromised, that's a problem


for America and it is a problem that can't be solved by putting people in


small boxes, it is an engineering problem and solved by increasing


people in computer security and this is something I'm doing, it is


helping the next generation to have the skills. Hilary tweets, "I'm


sorry, autism is no defence against wrongdoing." Bill says, "Guilty or


not, the potential sentence is enough to keep Lauri here." Thank


you for coming on the programme. Thank you.


Your views are welcome on the case of Lauri Love. If you want to


e-mail, or you can tweet. Still to come, the death of Baby P,


Peter Connelly, sparked outrage leading to the then Director


of Children's Services in Haringey, Sharon Shoesmith,


being sacked live on television. We'll talk to her later


in the programme about the lessons she thinks should be learned


from the tragedy. We'll discuss the allegations


surrounding Keith Vaz He's still fighting for his


political life. We will get the views of the former Mayor of London,


Ken Livingstone. Here's Joanne in the BBC Newsroom


with a summary of today's news. More than 200 people have


been prosecuted under the new "revenge porn" law,


according to figures It became an offence to share


private sexual photographs or films of someone without their permission


in England and Wales last April. Today's report is the first time


cases of this kind of crime have The retailer, Sports Direct,


that was condemned over working practices and zero hours contracts -


is to improve pay and conditions for staff at its main


distribution centre. An independent review


into its working practices found serious shortcomings


which Sports Direct Staff at its warehouse are now to be


put on guaranteed hours The Labour MP Keith Vaz will today


be urged to stand down as chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee


- after newspaper reports with the Commons Home Affairs


Committee this afternoon. He's reported to be facing a vote


of no confidence. The BBC understands senior figures


on the committee are consulting Commons clerks about what powers


they have to force Mr Vaz out. British Airways says it's checking


in customers at Heathrow and Gatwick Airport as normal


now after an earlier However it said it could take longer


than usual and urged customers Angry travellers complained of hours


queuing at airports. A group of activists


is disrupting flights The protest, by a number


of Black Lives Matter demonstrators, The police are there trying


to defuse the situation. The Black Lives Matter movement says


it wants to highlight the UK's environmental impact


on the lives of black people, saying the 'climate crisis


is a racist crisis'. One of Britain's most notorious


radical clerics - Anjem Choudary - Choudhary, who's 49,


was convicted last month of inciting support for the terror group Islamic


State. He could face up to


10 years in prison. A British man wanted in the US


for allegedly hacking into government computers has told


this programme he fears for his life Lauri Love, who has Asperger's


syndrome, could face trials in three different states


and is accused of hacking into the FBI, the US central


bank and the country's He told the Victoria Derbyshire


programme he is worried A judge is due to announce next week


if he should be extradited. President Obama has


cancelled a meeting with his Rodrigo Duterte,


after a public insult. Mr Duterte said he would call


Mr Obama a "son of a whore", if the US President raised the issue


of the sanctioned murders of alleged That's a summary of


the latest BBC News. In a mad. Johnny says, if you do not


want to do that time, don't do the crime. It's simple. Scotland has


your back, that is from someone who does not leave their name. This


tweet, he should receive the thanks for showing the weaknesses of the US


IT systems. Mitch sends a long text. The guest who hacked into Nasa


websites is saying it is not his fault because he has mental health


issues. This seems to be the latest excuse used by people. The young man


who attempted to kill Donald Trump city should be let off because he


also has mental health issues. Both of these men are smart enough to get


past some of the harshest security measures anywhere and the carried


out their crime with planning, thought and understanding of the


environment they were getting into. Jay says, regardless of his views on


data security, this guy could US national security risk and he should


be extradited and prosecuted there. I have mental health issues and I am


sick of people using them as an excuse to get away with crime. Linda


says, he has an amazing talent and it should be used for good, not


abused and punished. Here's some sport now


with John Watson. Andy Murray's incredible run of form


continues as he reached He dropped just five games


against Grigor Dimitrov He faces Kei Nishikori next -


as he looks to win a second US Open Crown, adding


to the Olympic Gold and Wimbledon Serena Williams has now won more


grand slam matches than any other Her victory against Yaraslova


Shvedova is her 308th grand slam win moving her past


Roger Federer's record Gareth Bale is just four


goals short of Wales' In their opening match of World Cup


qualification last night he scored twice as Wales


beat Moldova 4-0. It was their first competitive match


since that incredible run And no signs of a post


Euro hangover. And Rory McIlroy won his first PGA


Tour title in over a year He came from six shots back in his


final round to win by two shots. He's now fourth in the FedEx


Cup play-offs. Were he to top that


after the remaining two tournaments, The magic isn't over for JK


Rowling - she may be done with Harry Potter,


but she isn't done with Hogwarts School


of Witchcraft and Wizardry. She is delving back


into the wizarding world for a series of short ebooks


with new and old stories about some The e-books, each about 10,000 words


long, are released today. The idea is that you should be able


to get through them in about an hour.


How much of the Harry Potter magic will they contain?


I've got a real treat for you today. You are a great wizard, Harry.


Welcome to halt warts. -- Hogwarts. With us this morning some very


excited people in the studio already Let's talk now to 7 year olds Helen,


Bea and Lottie and 14 year old Kit - all Harry Potter fans who will be


here until the end of the programme. Hello, all of you. How are you?


Thank you for coming on the programme. So first of all, how much


do you love Harry Potter? I love it a lot. I have played all the Games


and watched all the movies and read quite a few of the books. Is there a


standout film or book? They each have their own good one.


Philosophers Stone is the best for me. And deathly Hallows, part one,


that is the best movie. What about you, what do you think? I'm not


really a big fan of it but I do like it. That is interesting. Do you have


a favourite character? I have three. Harry Potter. Hermione and Ron. Do


you like Ron Weasley? Are you sure? Not that bothered. Is he a bit silly


for you? Kind of. Favourite characters? I am a big fan of


Hermione. And what about you, Helen? Hermione. Bound to be. Of the three


books released today, have you the title is handy? Do you know what it


is called? Poltergeist and something? Power, politics and pesky


poltergeists. And how is it going so far? Are you learning anything new?


I am reading an incomplete and unreliable guide to halt -- to


Hogwarts, which explores a lot of the hidden things not in the books.


The form room, this book explains what is in there and how you get in


there. How do you get into the Hufflepuff room? You go up the


stairs and then you have to get the pass code. You go down through the


kitchens, and then you have to enter a code on one of the barrels and


touch the underneath. And then you will always be asked a random


question, depending on who is entering. That is new info. In terms


of Harry Potter aficionados, that is interesting new info. There are a


lot of new things that I think Harry Potter fans will appreciate. How far


are you through the one you are reading? 38%. 16%. How are you


doing? 30%. OK. And kids, I think you might finish it before the end


of the programme. Carry on reading. We'll keep going back to Helen,


Bea, Lottie and Kit throughout the programme


as they read the books. Coming up, the death of Baby P,


who suffered dozens of injuries at the hands of his parents


while being repeatedly seen by people that


should have helped him We will hear from her on what


lessons she thinks we can learn from the little boy's death.


One of Britain's most notorious radical clerics - Anjem Choudary -


will be sentenced this morning, after he was convicted of inciting


support for the terror group Islamic State.


Counter-terror police have spent almost 20 years trying


to bring Choudary to trial, accusing him - and the proscribed


organisations which he helped run - of radicalising young men and women.


He now faces up to ten years in prison.


In a moment we'll speak to a group of people who knew him


and discuss what kind of impact his sentence could have


But first, more about who Anjem Choudary is.


Anjem Choudary, doing what he did best, preaching his own brand of


radical Islam. For two decades, the authorities have been monitoring him


but as a trained lawyer, he knew how to stay on the right side of the


law. Said to be clever, charismatic and dangerous, followers who fell


under his spell included Michael and oblige all, one of the men who


murdered Fusiliers Lee Read the in 2013. Another follower was Richard


Dart, a Muslim convert jailed for terrorism offences. That's


stepbrother has spent years studying and Jim Choudhury. He is like a


father figure to a lot of these guys. He knows what buttons to push.


He radicalised as people, indoctrinate them with extremist


ideology. Anjem Choudary has been linked to countless extremists here


and abroad but has never been charged with a serious offence until


now. In 2014, he pledged allegiance to Islamic State and invited others


to support it. One of his keenest followers was this man, who fled


from the UK whilst on bail and joined Islamic State. He is


suspected of being the new Jihadi John. The authorities had a chance


to get Anjem Choudary in the dock and charged him with the unusual


crime of inviting support for a banned group. He boasted extremist


material online and that was then available around the world. In the


light of his speeches and the people he had posted -- the material he had


posted, it was enough to convict him. Choudhury will be sentenced


today and is facing up to ten years in prison. Authorities hope that the


influential hate preacher will finally be silenced.


Let's talk now to Dal Babu, a former superintendent


with the Met Police who now advises the government on counter extremism.


Steve Gillan is from the Prison Officers Association.


And Rashad Ali is a former radical who now helps prevent young


Welcome. What drew you to the Islamist organisation you supported,


which had the same ideology as the one that Anjem Choudary led? A


number of different things. First of all, it is attractive on an


ideological level. It is offering something alternative in terms of


politics and religion and belonging. It takes the lean back ticks all of


those boxes. Growing up in the 90s, there was not a lot of debate about


whether you were Muslim or British or Asian. -- it takes all of those


boxes. It capitalises on that. You are Muslim, first and foremost, and


that is your primary identity. Coupled with what was happening


around the globe at the time, living through the atrocities in Bosnia,


the genocide that was happening in trip permits and so on, this was


happening to blonde, blue-eyed, white Muslims whose only cultural


collection with Islam was the fact that was their heritage, and showed


raised debate is about to what extent can you really be a muscle


within society. Coupled with that, the political dimension. In order to


protect Muslims, in Bosnia, Palestinian territories or cashmere,


or whether it was in Chechnya at the time, actually the singular force


that can protect Muslims was a global superpower that did not


recognise borders, like Syria or Iraq or any other border, and was


able to unify Muslims into a global caliphate. The idea of an old Muslim


empire being re-established, reasserted in the world, coupled


with religious identities and your sense of belonging. And where does


the violence coming to it? It comes into deciding how do you want to


bring this about. And perhaps that is where Anjem Choudary cumin? There


is an ideal that rejects everything Western and the idea is that the


only way you can bring it about is through violence. Anjem Choudary's


perspective was bringing it about in his version of jihad, violent acts.


Whether that was globally for him or for some of his affiliates,


terrorist acts in the UK, or now clearly associating with Islamic


State in Iraq and Syria, then it was swearing allegiance to them and


taking actions on their behalf. From a former Chief Superintendent's


view, how do you get in the way, how do you stop people being attracted


to that? Well, I think Anjem Choudary was a very, very dangerous


individual. He preyed on vulnerable individuals. He was in the


Premiership of radicalisation, so he was one of the Big Four who have now


all been put away for been kicked out of the country. He was a very,


very dangerous individual. He preyed on vulnerable individuals and he


went for the sound bite, the idea of having the Islamic flag flying over


Downing Street and I think what needed to happen was he was dealt


with, but the difficulty was that the hypocrisy, he was a nightclub


goer, he was a philanderer, he was all of these things and suddenly


found religion and the danger is with somebody like him, he preyed on


vulnerable individuals and he made an issue of ensuring he used his


legal training to stay on the right side of the law which made it


incredibly difficult for the authorities to actually prosecute


him. But during that time, he radicalised individuals and my fear


now is that we've now had the Premiership radicalisers


neutralised, the danger is now a lot of the radicalisation will be done


via Twitter and via Facebook by individuals sending messages from


Syria and Lebanon. Well, that's already being done. I wonder how


relevant Anjem Choudary has been in recent years when social media has


taken over? First of all, the organisation has been quite active


on the social media. These are groups essentially with you have


been connected to a host of different people. Twitter, 90,000


individuals accounts have been taken down. 90,000? 90,000. It is not just


Twitter, it is telegram, it is Facebook, it is the different


mediums, YouTube has been instrumental in this regard. The


battle ground for this is on the social media platforms. It is how


the counter narratives go out on Facebook and target them via Twitter


or being able to send out videos on YouTube to counter that message. You


say he has been silenced along with three other top radicalisers, if I


can put it like that, they maybe in jail for a bit. There is no silence,


the social media... You're right Victoria. There isn't any silence


and in some ways it become more sin ter because at least we knew Anjem


Choudary was out there and he was seen as a fool by 99% of the people


who dealt with him. The media should take some responsibility for giving


him airtime. He was somebody who had no credibility and yet he was


getting media time. He appeared on flagship programmes like the Today


programme and on Newsnight and he was able to espouse without being


challenged his views. I don't think that is fair that he wasn't


challenged. He was challenged. But I take your point. That's your point.


Steve, given that the recent Government announcement which is


that someone like Choudary will be locked up in a high-security prison,


isolated, so he cannot radicalise other inmates, does that make you


less concerned about where he'll be jailed? No, radicalisation is a very


complex issue in prisons. We don't agree with the Government


recommendation. Some of the other recommendations we think are very


good, but isolating individuals, it didn't work 30 years ago in the H


Blocks in Northern Ireland where loyalists and Republicans


automatically then demanded political status. They wore it as a


badge of honour and we see the same here, whether it is Choudary or


anybody else. So how would you stop somebody like him radicalising other


people in jail? It has got to be done in society first because out of


sight, out of mind, appears to be the order of the day now they're in


prison, everything is OK. Well, everything is not OK because prisons


are becoming a breeding ground. I think it has got to start in society


first. Fine, so if we accept that, what would you do in jail with


someone like Choudary to stop him influencing a load of other people?


There is lots of initiatives that can be done. One, better training


for prison officers. But first and fore most, you can't have a


situation where you've got 35% less prison officers now looking after


85,000 prisoners in our jails now. Even if you had more officers, I


don't know how you would stop Anjem Choudary radicalising other


prisoners who might be harbouring all sorts of grievances? Possibly,


Victoria, but I think prison officers are very professional


people that keep the public safe and I think they do an excellent job


with people like Choudary and others. How? By doing what? With


high-profile prisoners that have got much more proximity than what


Choudary will ever have. Go on. Just let me finish. Better training, more


resources, more dedication to prison officers by realising the


professionalisation, but this can only be done through education in


society, without demonising the Muslim faith. Let me ask you,


isolation for Choudary in jail? I'm sympathetic to the idea that we need


to separate them from the general prison population. Prison is a


captive audience and it is people who have demonstrated an inclination


towards violence and people who demonstrated a general moral


prospective which considers itself separated from society. So


therefore, they are more vulnerable. At the same time the issue here


isn't really just about isolating without putting a plan in place and


the key thing with people like Anjem Choudary and others, is being able


to engage in a deralicalisation process. A lot of the work


demonstrates that you can engage individuals no matter where they are


on that spectrum, even the hard-end, but it can be Dungiven the right


circumstances and the right people intervening. Anjem Choudary could be


de-radicalised in jail? It is necessary to make that effort. I


just think, I support Steve's position. If you have burglars you


don't isolated burglars and you don't isolate the robbers. These


people at some stage have to come into society. It is having good


training for the prison officers. A huge amount of public resources have


been reduced and that's where we need to be putting our resources in.


This is a premiership radicaliser who has been put behind bars. Let's


do what we can to ensure he doesn't damage anymore vulnerable people


because there will be more vulnerable people in an enclosed


space in prisons. Let's not forget the excellent work the imams are


doing up and down the country de-radicalising people. A couple of


comments from people listening to you. We are expecting the sentencing


this morning sometime. We will bring that to you as soon as it happens.


Kevin on Facebook says, "Crackdown? What crackdown? The man has been


allowed to preach his hate for years. I'm sure his replacements are


already in place." William e-mails to say, "If there are hundreds or


tens of thousands or more just waiting to be called into violence


then the problem is bigger than one man and he didn't create the problem


in the first place." Thank you for those. Thank you very much for


coming on the programme. Excuse the offensive language we are about to


use. but American President Barack Obama


has cancelled a meeting with the controversial President


of the Philippines who had earlier Our Asia Correspondent Karishma


Vaswani is in Laos at the summit. How did it happen? Well, the


discussion or the comments were made by the Filipino president when he


was holding a press conference in man lal ahead of his visit where he


was due to meet with the American president, Barack Obama. A reporter


asked the question, "What will you do if Barack Obama raises the issue


of drug killings with you?" 2,000 people have been killed in the


Philippines since he became president and he has been criticised


for his shoot first, ask later policy. In response to that question


the Philippine president said, "Who is Mr Obama to ask me such


questions?" And he used the offensive words. The meeting meant


to be held between the two on the sidelines of this summit here has


been cancelled, but earlier on today, we received a statement from


the Philippines delegation which said that the meeting between the


United States and the Philippines will be held at a mutually agreed


date later in the future. There was an expression of regret from the


Filipino president who said his strong comments, he regretted his


strong comments were seen as a personal attack on the American


president. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, on the campaign trail


to be the next President of the United States Hillary Clinton


suffered a coughing fit COUGHING


Every time I think about Trump I get allergic.


COUGHING She said, "Every time I think about


Donald Trump I get an allergic reaction." You couldn't really hear


it because she was coughing so much. Let's have another listen.


COUGHING Every time I think about Trump I get


allergic. LAUGHTER


She needs a hot cup of tea. Tomorrow, in London, we're holding


a big audience programme Junior doctors may not


be going on strike for But they will be going on strike


for a week in a month's time. And then again in another month


and so on. So the dispute hasn't been settled -


just postponed and tomorrow we want to try and work out how


and if it will ever be settled. You are very welcome to join us,


to take part whether you're a junior doctor, you work in the NHS,


you've been treated in hospital or are going to be affected


by the five-day strikes. If you'd like to be part


of the programme to share your views, do e-mail


[email protected] to apply. Let's get the latest weather update


with Carol Kirkwood. When I got up at 4.15am and let


Gracie out for a wee, it was so warm. You're not wrong. It has been


a warm start. Temperatures last night in Northern Ireland didn't


drop lower than 19.4 Celsius in Aldergrove. Now, the temperatures


are higher than that. But look at this beautiful picture. Weather


Watchers picture from Northern Ireland. Lovely skies there. Some


blue skies, but to show you what the temperatures are like now, it is 22


Celsius in Leconfield and 21 Celsius in Lossiemouth, Aberdeen, Newcastle,


Eastbourne Newport to name a few places and it is feeling humid. So


what we have with it is not much in the way of a breeze to turn over the


cloud that we have. It is a cloudy start, but we've got a weak weather


front straddled across parts of Northern Ireland and Southern


Scotland. Now, that's going to continue to produce rain as we go


through the course of the day. The cloud across England and Wales will


break up in places so we will see bright skies or sunshine, but the


lion's share of the sunshine today will be across north-east Scotland.


Into the afternoon, we hang on to the band of rain across Northern


Ireland. It is slipping southwards. So for the far north of Northern


Ireland, it will brighten up. Northern Ireland Scotland


particularly, the north-east, seeing the sunshine. Somewhere in


Aberdeenshire could see 25 Celsius. But for the southern uplands, there


is a lot of cloud around and patchy rain. As we come back into the rest


of England and Wales, we're looking at again, quite a bit of cloud, but


somewhere from London up towards the Wash could hit 26 Celsius today. And


drifting across southern counties again, variable amounts of cloud,


some sunny breaks and the tame too can be said for Wales. In Cardiff,


highs around the 22 Celsius mark. Heading through the evening and


overnight, this line of rain across Northern Ireland and Southern


Scotland retreats northwards and that will allow the humid air across


England and Wales to travel further north. So you will notice that


across Scotland and Northern Ireland tonight. There will be a lot of


cloud around. And patchy mist and fog as well. So that's how we start


the day tomorrow. Once again, on a cloudy note but tomorrow with drier


air being imported for the Continent, you will find it will


break up readily and we will see more sunshine. It will feel much


warmer as well in the south, but still, some of that rain playing the


Outer Hebrides. 22 Celsius the maximum temperature in Newcastle


tomorrow and up to 27 Celsius as we slip down towards the South East.


Thursday, well, we have got a weather front crossing us, it is


producing rain across Scotland and Northern Ireland and cloud across


England and Wales. That moves away and behind it, still quite bright,


some sunshine coming out and it will feel a little bit fresher. It


doesn't mean it will turn cold, but it will be fresher than we're


looking at than the next couple of days. And then as we head into


Friday, well Friday too, is looking fairly cloudy. We've got stronger


winds coming in from the west, possibly gales across north-west


Scotland and the rain also coming in from the west too.


She is a human sunbeam, I am telling you right now.


Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria


Later on the programme, the outrage which followed the death


of Baby Peter Connolly in 2007 led to widespread condemnation


It also resulted in the sacking on live television


of Sharon Shoesmith, the ex-head of Children's Services


in the North London Borough of Haringey by the Children's


secretary at the time, Ed Balls.


I have decided to take immediate action. My first priority is to put


in place a new leadership and management team in Haringey


Children's Services to ensure that vulnerable children in the borough


are properly protected. I have directed Haringey Council today to


appoint Mr John Coughlan as director of Children's Services with


immediate effect. Haringey Council will now lose the current executor


of Children's Services, post with immediate effect.


She believes there are still lessons to be learned


On the programme today, Lauri Love, an autistic student from Suffolk


accused of hacking into government websites told this programme that


extradition to a US jail would put his life jail. Anything more than a


few decades, you see no end to it. It is difficult in US prisons for


people with mental health difficulties. Many of you getting in


touch about the interview. Clifford says, break laws and act the


righteous cyber terrorist, then take your punishment like a man and do


not cry like a child in court. Gareth says that no judge in good


conscience should allow extradition without evidence. If you want to


watch the interview again, you can. It is on our website:


And how do new Harry Potter short stories, just released,


stand up to the scrutiny of these Harry Potter fans?


They will be giving their verdict on the latest tales


from the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry


Good morning, let's get the latest BBC news so far this morning.


I love those kids curled up reading books.


A group of activists is disrupting flights at London City airport.


The protest by a number of Black Lives Matter demonstrators,


The police are there trying to defuse the situation.


The Black Lives Matter movement says it wants to highlight the UK's


environmental impact on the lives of black people,


saying the 'climate crisis is a racist crisis'.


The retailer Sports Direct that was condemned over working


practices and zero hours contracts - is to improve pay and conditions


for staff at its main distribution centre.


An independent review into its working practices found


serious shortcomings which Sports Direct


Staff at its warehouse are now to be put on guaranteed hours


The Labour MP Keith Vaz will today be urged to stand down as chairman


of the Home Affairs Select Committee after newspaper reports that he paid


Mr Vaz is due to discuss his future with the Commons Home


He's reported to be facing a vote of no confidence.


The BBC understands senior figures on the committee are consulting


Commons clerks about what powers they have to force Mr Vaz out.


One of Britain's most notorious radical clerics - Anjem Choudary -


Choudhary, 49, was convicted last month of inciting support


He could face up to ten years in prison.


A British man wanted in the US for allegedly hacking


into government computers has told this programme he fears for his life


Lauri Love, who has Asperger's syndrome, could face trials in three


different states and is accused of hacking into the FBI, the US


central bank and the country's missile defence agency.


A judge is due to announce next week if he should be extradited.


He told the Victoria Derbyshire programme he is worried


It's quite absurd. Anything more than a few decades, you see no end


to it. Because of the power conditions in US prisons, I think I


would be in danger of dying in some unfortunate way. -- because of the


poor conditions. That's a summary of the latest BBC


News, more at 10.30. This text from Richard about Lauri


Love, the 31-year-old student facing extradition to the States. I am on


the autism spectrum and I have anxiety and it depends how bad the


crime is in the USA. I always think that Americans say things and the


actions happen. I have 100% support for Lauri Love. Another tweet: I


believe that Lauri Love should be recruited by the government to


protect our cyber networks. And this tweet: The internet has no borders


and if he hacked into US systems, he should be prosecuted, regardless of


the location he was in. Do get in touch with us


throughout the morning, Andy Murray is lining up a second US


Open title after reaching the quarter finals of the last


tennis major of the year. He beat Grigor Dimitrov in straight


sets, dropping just five games. He has now reached the quarterfinals


in 22 of his last 23 Grand Slams. Next, a meeting with Kei Nishikori.


I don't think I made any mistakes in the match. I kept good concentration


throughout. It was a good match and Dimitrov played his best but I did


not give him a chance to get into the match. Meanwhile Serena Williams


has won more Grand Slam matches than any other player in history. Her


victory against Yaroslava Shvedova is 308 Grand Slam win, moving past


Roger Federer's record as she reached the quarterfinals.


In their first competitive match since they reached


the semi-finals of Euro 2016, Wales kicked off their World Cup


qualifying campaign with a 4-nil win over Moldova.


Gareth Bale was the star of the show in Cardiff,


Joe Allen then scored his first international goal, before Bale


He's now second on Wales' goalscoring list, behind Ian Rush.


A great start for Wales that pleased their manager.


I think tonight was difficult because the last time we were


together it was in front of the world, really, in a semifinal of a


tournament. And now we are starting the beginning of a campaign against


a team we are expected to beat at home. So it was a different


challenge for us. But the boys answered all the questions and like


I say, we could have scored by more than four, but three points, that is


what it is all about. The next match is going to be a sterner test,


against Austria in October. Rory McIlroy played an incredible


final round as he won the Deutche Bank Championship -


his first PGA tile He was six shots behind


But he overturned that with a superb round of 65 to finish two shots


clear on 15-under-par. It was McIlroy's first PGA Tour


title in more than a year. I am proud of myself that I was able


to keep that momentum going, to keep the same thoughts and not get


negative if I hit it bad. I tried to stay positive throughout the weekend


and as I said, it has been a great lesson this week for future


tournaments, if I do not get off to the start that I want. And that is


all the sport for now. The death of Baby P is one


of the most high profile Peter Connelly, the blue eyed,


blonde haired little boy, was found dead in his cot


in the North London borough A year later his mother


Tracy Connelly, her boyfriend Steven Barker and his brother


Jason Owen were convicted of 'causing or allowing'


Peter's death. Details of the shocking


crime emerged. injuries to his body and had been


seen more than 60 times by health workers, the police


and social workers. Two days before his death,


a children's doctor who was standing in as a locum


missed the fact that the child Yet it was only social workers


that were vilified. The case sparked outrage,


leading to the then Director of Children's Services


at Haringey, Sharon Shoesmith, being sacked live on television


by the then Children's We'll talk to Sharon Shoesmith


in a moment about a book she's written, Learning From Baby P,


on the lessons she thinks should be learned from the death


of Peter Connolly. The death in 2007 of 17-month-old


Peter Connolly, known for so long as BPP, sparked huge public outrage.


His mother, Tracey Connelly, her boyfriend and their lodger were


jailed for causing or allowing the toddler's death, but much of the


criticism was directed at social workers in the borough of Haringey


in north London were the toddler lived and was on the at risk


register. Baby Peter was found to have suffered 50 injuries and had


long been known to them. In the final eight months of his life,


social workers, police and health professionals make contact with his


family on 60 occasions. In July of 2007, less than a week before his


death, Maria Ward, a social worker, made a prearranged home visit but


missed injuries to his face and hands after he was deliberately


smeared with chocolate to hide them. Days before he died, a doctor missed


the fact that he had it broken spine. More than a million people


signed a petition demanding the sacking of social workers and


doctors who failed him. In November 2008, the children's minister, Ed


Balls, ordered an enquiry into his death and a month later, Haringey


Council's director of Children's Services, Sharon Shoesmith was


sacked from her post with immediate effect. Haringey Council will now


remove the current director of Children's Services from her post


with immediate effect. An official report in 2010 criticised social


workers and their managers, saying that they were too willing to


believe Peter's mother's claim that her son was injured accidentally.


Sharon Shoesmith later won a pay-out of ?600,000 after a wrongful


dismissal court ruled in her favour. Sharon Shoesmith, former Director


of Children's Services Good morning. Thank you for talking


to us. Straightaway, let's deal with the accusation that you are cashing


in on the death of Peter Connolly by writing this book. Well, the book is


based on my PhD, which I wrote at university, and over the years since


Peter died, any physical or financial resources I have had have


been used to raise some profile and awareness of some of the issues


around cases like his. I only this week have travelled around this


country with an organisation called I am social work, and I am joining


another organisation, social workers without borders, to try to promote


some of the work that social workers do. But are you cashing in? I am not


cashing in. The film talked about ?600,000. There was never ?600,000,


there was a fraction of that which I cannot reveal because I have signed


papers and people would be ready to tackle me. It is a fraction of that.


And it is eight years. So any resource I had is ploughed into


raising the profile about harm to children. The book, you say, is


about learning from the death of Peter Connolly and trying to


understand why politicians, and the public, reacted in the way that they


did when an number of other children, over 50 other children


died in the same year and there was not the same reaction. But you were


at the heart of it, so I wonder how the book could be seen as objective?


You are not an independent observer. No, I am not, and that is an issue


for anyone who writes a book on a difficult subject. And how you try


to deal with that is to provide the evidence. And to reference the


evidence. My book does reference quite a large amount of evidence,


some of it which came through the court process. And I am able to


stand back and criticise myself. How? With great difficulty, of


course. But with the passage of time, and I am a self reflective


person, I am able to do that. But at the heart of this, and at the heart


of some of your questions already is the sense that I am guilty. And I


think I have to tackle that one. I'm not guilty. I have only asked two


questions and I have many more. But both of them had the undercurrent


that I had done something wrong and I should be punished in some way.


You are entitled to your opinion but perhaps it is just your perception


because you are coming from that place, because that is how it has


been for you. Absolutely. That is how it has been for all of these


years. You argue strongly that in this country, when a child dies at


the hands of the mum and dad, what society does more often than not is


blamed social workers. And that is what happened, as we know, in the


case of Peter Connolly. And the argument is that it is because


society cannot cope with the fact that mums and dads killed their own


children. Tell us more about your theory. It is one of the arguments I


make in the book, that the crime of familial child homicides, often it


is a mother or father or an uncle or an aunt who is involved, it is such


repugnant crime. It is very hard for us to understand how that happen.


Most of us really cherish our children. It is very hard for that


to be understood. I think that has to be explored. In finding it hard


to handle, we tend to look elsewhere for blame, we look for another


reason. Who feel that this child? -- who failed this child. The


circumstances around Peter's death remain complex. To this date we do


not know how he died or when he died or who killed him, yet we think we


know so much about Peter. But he was denied an inquest. So we do not know


the answer to any of those questions, even today.


Why do you think again, your argument, but why do you think it is


more palatable to people to blame social workers or another agency,


but in this case social workers rather than put responsibility


squarely at the hands, in this case, of the mother, the boyfriend and the


lodger? Well, it is easier in one sense, but also when you look in


in-depth as I do in the book what happened after Peter's death and


after the public knew about Peter's death which was a year on, you have


got a real complex interaction between politicians, the media, and


the public. The public were ill informed and misled from the


start... By? By politicians and tabloid media. What were the


misleading things you say were put out? Cameron was the first thing


that kicked this off in this very negative direction. You know, a real


example of opportunism, here was an Opposition leader desperate to be


Prime Minister, had to bring The Sun tabloid newspaper on his side in


order to get votes, yeah. We know that's how it works and there is an


interaction between him and The Sun, Rebekah Brooks and that develops


into a very challenging interaction, I think, between Rebekah Brooks and


Ed Balls in the end. I cover this in the book in some detail. But what


was misleading? What did politicians and the media put out that was


misleading? The worst of what they put out was that social workers


stood by and watched the torture of Peter Connelly. That was how bad it


got. That is how desperate it became. When I use those words, you


know, I have shivers running through my body because it was so far from


the truth. And you know, if I say to you that Peter was found dead on a


Friday morning. He had spent the previous weekend with his father,


his natural father, and his maternal grandmother. On Monday, the social


worker met both the father, talking about Peter's future, the fact that


he was having this specialist medical investigation on the


Wednesday. The next day he is met in the street. The whole family is met


by a health professional who knows the family and she interacted with


them. The next day he goes to see the doctor, and your little


introduction covered that and you say it is a fact that he had a


fractured spine, but we actually don't know that. There is some


conflict between pathologists in what they think was the situation


with Peter that day. The next day, the mother is in our offices with


the police officers and they're telling her that they have no case


against her. They have no evidence against her and that they won't


press charges, the day before he died and the next day he is found


dead. It feels like it is still rankles with you, certainly having


read the book, that social workers got all the criticism when doctors,


health professionals, the police, also made numerous visits to the


little boy? Yes. It doesn't wrangle with me. I think it is something


that we have to know and understand. I have never used blame against


blame, yeah? Blame is not part of my psyche really. It is not something


that I've ever used... But you do in the book, you blame the politicians,


you blame the police for private briefing which contributes to


misleading the public? I would really contest your interpretation.


I don't blame. What you find in the book is a real emphasis on


understanding, yeah? I really set that out at the beginning. That we


need to stand back and understand what happened here. I need to


understand too, yeah? I need to accept the public's reaction because


of what they were told, what they did understand. No, I would contest


that it is blame. The serious issue here is how we responded to Peter's


death and how we tackle this kind of crime. I gave the statistics and


you've quoted them this morning, you know, there is one child every week


dies. Now, that is not general knowledge in our population. People


don't know that, yeah? We have a lot of general knowledge about lots of


other things. But not this. We don't put that kind of information out


there. And I think the serious issue and what the book is trying to say,


this is something we have to come to terms with. We have to face this one


and try to understand it and this just simply blaming social workers


isn't going to get us anywhere. In fact, it is making the situation


worse because the social work profession is just under siege all


of the time. It has become, I feel, quite fragile, quite fear of


failure. I push social workers everywhere I go to try and join a


single independent professional organisation that can support them


and protect them. But if you make such an important or a profession,


fearful, which is I think is what we've done here. They meet me and


go, "Oh my goodness, we couldn't believe what happened. We live in


horror that it will happen to us." I have contact from social workers,


only one yesterday, saying, "Please can I talk to you about what is


happening to me?" This is happening now. It is happening now. At the


same time I want to add Victoria, these professionals are out there


today and they're at this moment making decisions which are life and


death. Yeah. I think it is time we faced up to that. It is time we


understood it and it is time we got behind the social work profession. I


wonder and you may not like this question, I put this to you - I


wonder if your book is looking for conspiracy theories when none exist?


Arguing that this relationship between the politicians at the time,


The Sun newspaper, a bit of briefing from the Metropolitan Police at the


time, somehow manipulated the public into thinking that social workers


were to blame for Peter Connelly's death when they knew he died at the


hands of his mother. They knew he was on the at risk register in your


borough, they knew his death happened on your watch and


therefore, it can legitimately be argued that you should accept some


responsibility for that? Well, there are a number of issues there. If you


accept that one child a week is dying in this way, yeah and that


those children will either be on on at risk register or not, but they


will exist somewhere and be attached to some local authority or some


borough, are we going to sack a Director of Children's services


every time a child dies? No. Where will that take us? Because it is


different. Because in this case it was on your watch when the child was


subject to a child protection plan. Yes, but my point still stands, does


it not? Many children die, and I don't want to, you know, say this


lightly. It is a horrific crime. But it is happening and the point I'm


making to you is if this is how we are going to react to it, no one is


going to do this job. No one is going to be a Director of A


children's service. I was entirely responsible and accountable in that


I followed Government guidelines to look at some detail as to what the


conduct was of social workers and I have to remind you that social


workers were never struck off by their own regulator. Social workers


at the heart of this case are still social workers today. Not


practising, but they're still social workers. That gives you some idea of


what the issues were for them. But you say conspiracy theory. I took


years to come to terms with the evidence that I had obtained through


the court system, years to realise what it was and what it was saying


and the most difficult set of documents that I looked at were the


17 drafts of the Ofsted report and my analysis, which took place over


years, and I used other people to look at it and say, "Is what I have


analysed here and written actually what is there or am I being, you


know, imagining this?" It goes to the heart of your question and they


say no, it is here. The evidence is there and I make reference to it in


my book and it allowed me to say and it is an important point, that the


report that Ed Balls is referring to in your clip that was so appalling,


was actually written by Ofsted's top team. It wasn't written by the


inspectors who came to Haringey and it was written by Ofsted's top team


in conjunction with some of Ed Balls' civil servants, they were


giving steers, make sure there is a clear attribution of responsibility


because they felt they were dealing with an absolute upsurge of emotion


among the public which they were... You argued once you had been sacked


effectively that sort of closed things down. Yes, they thought that.


They began to feel that there was only one way out of this and this


was to get me to sack me and indeed, we now understand and there is


evidence in the Leveson Inquiry that Rebekah Brooks rang Ed Balls and we


are led to believe this was to say, you know, either sack Shoesmith or


we'll turn this thing on you. People lost their way. I want to read some


comments as people heard you speak this morning and most of them are


essentially, I'll read one. It is representative. This tweet from


Philips, "Sharon Shoesmith is overplaying the victim here. It is


enough." Stephen says, "When you were head of children's services,


you have to take responsibility, Sharon." Paul thinks that you are


shameless, his words. I would urge them to read the book and to read


what is set out there. OK. I respect their views. They were led in a


direction with information... They might think that's a rather


patronising view of them. They are able to make up their own minds?


Well, I think the tabloid media can be incredibly, incredibly


persuasive. And the British public can be bright and intelligent? Well,


Ireland sure there are people who would support my view as well. I


haven't come on the programme to dissuade the British public. I


respect their view actually. If what they were told was absolutely true


that social workers stood by and watched the torture of a child,


they're absolutely entitled to say everything like that to me again and


again. Sharon shoe Smith. Let me bring you this news. It is to do


with something that happened in the early hours of this morning.


Officers alerted to a number of protesters who have made their way


to London City Airport. Nine people erected a tripod and locked


themselves together on the runway. Officers negotiated with the


protesters and specialist officers arrived to unlock them. Those are


the pictures as you can see from the runway. At approximately 9.30am


officers started to arrest the protesters. Well, let's talk to one


of the people who have organised this protest and is at the scene.


Can you hear me? Hi Victoria. How are you doing? Very well, thank you.


Where are you now? I'm right beside London City Airport. Are you on the


runway or outside the perimeter? Outside the perimeter. Had you been


on the runway earlier or not? No. So what were your co protesters doing


this morning and why? So we've called for a shutdown of London City


Airport because the climate crisis is a racist crisis. Can you say that


again, please? Can you hear me? Yeah, go ahead. Shutdown London City


Airport because the climate crisis is a racist crisis. What do you


mean? Basically from Newham to New Orleans time and again we see the


environmental costs of the aviation industry hitting working class


communities of colour first and hardest. Our aviation industry is


accounting for 13% of carbon emissions in this country. People


from the UK are 28% more likely to be exposed than their white


counterparts. It is due to the inequality around the globe. That


means that we're trying to put this issue on the map. What's your


evidence that black working class people in this country are more


exposed to air pollution than white people? Well, they're more likely to


live beside airports, beside power plants because they can't afford to


live in places that aren't. Right. Forgive me, this is going to sound


facetious and some of those people get on planes to go on holiday? Of


course. This isn't about those people, those holiday-makers, it is


not about that. London City Airport is the embodiment of short haul air


travel by the wealthiest in our society. So the average wage of the


people that fly out of the airport is ?136,000 euros a year per annum


and let's compare that to the fact that 40% of the London Borough of


Newham, the residents in the London Borough of Newham is scraping by on


under ?20,000 a year. So, you know, the people that can afford to fly


out of the airport are creating our climate crisis.


And so how is this protest, people lying down on the runway, going to


change things? This country has a rich and vibrant history of


disobedience and this action has been taken out of regard for human


life. It is important for us to put on the map the inequality around the


world and the fact that black lives are more likely to suffer as a


result of the climate crisis. I think that by disrupting, we are


doing that. We are raising, people are talking about this issue. Thank


you very much for talking to us. Thank you for your time. Amena, who


is outside City Airport in London. She believes the climate crisis is a


racist crisis. Next, tabloid story about a senior politician, male


prostitutes and allegations about an offer to pay for cocaine.


Labour's Keith Vaz is an elected member of parliament who is also


chairman of a powerful parliamentary committee that scrutinises


government policy on prostitution and drugs.


Today members of that committee will be hearing from Mr Vaz


on whether he intends to resign or step aside for a bit.


The husband and father of two certainly doesn't seem shy


about what's happened - he appeared in parliament


yesterday to ask a question of the new Home Secretary.


But could or should that appearance in the Commons be one


Let's hear what the former Labour MP and London mayor


Let's talk to Norman's Notes. This meeting between the Home Affairs


Select Committee and Mr Vaz, you will give his side of the story and


then what? I think Mr Vaz is going to face enormous pressure to step


down. He will give his defence, if you like. He will argue that he has


not broken any laws, and what he does in his private life is entirely


up to him. He will also be critical of the newspaper for paying the


prostitutes for this story. But he will face demands to go and if he


doesn't go, I'm told that he will be given 24 hours to reflect on his


position. The committee will then reconvene and the expectation is


that they may then try to hold a vote of no-confidence his position.


We are in uncharted territories. Nobody has ever done this before,


holding a vote of no-confidence in a committee chairman. They are not


even sure whether it would have any authority, whether you can host a


committee chairman. But significantly, the move is now


hardening against him. I was speaking to a Labour figure on the


committee who said that Labour members are not inclined to support


it. Now that would seem to me to suggest that he's going to have an


awfully difficult job hanging on to his position. I expect that what he


will do is say, look, I am prepared to stand aside temporarily but I


suspect that will not be enough for members of the committee and I


expect that he will recognise that and stand down or he will be forced


to stand down tomorrow. Thank you very much. Let's talk to former


Labour MP and London mayor, Ken Livingstone, who joins us outside


his home in north-west London. Labour members of the Home Affairs


Select Committee are not inclined to support Keith Vaz. Do you? I think


someone's private life should be private. I remember 35 years ago in


the run-up to the GRC election, reporters came to me with evidence


that the Tory leader, my opponent, was having an affair. They got


pictures of women going in and out of the flat he was renting and I


said, I will not run with that, we're running on the issue of


cutting fares. I regret to hear that the Sunday Mirror have decided that


this is more important than the serious issues such as the economy.


He is the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee which conducts


enquiries into drugs and prostitution. He is alleged to have


offered to fund the buying of cup game and to have used a male


prostitutes. Is that not a conflict of interest? -- the buying of


cocaine. Let's see what turns out to be true. I could recount all the


stories that you will have read about me in the press that turned


out not to be true. I can't recall being at Labour Party conferences


and watching journalists going up to the hotels with prostitutes they had


picked up. All across our society, people pay for sex. I do not approve


of it and I do not do it myself but I do not think it is illegal. If it


is true, do you accept that is a conflict of interest? I don't think


the fact, if it turns to be true that he has paid for sex, I don't


think that prevents him from conducting an enquiry into


prostitution and the problems of prostitution. The of prostitution or


what happens to the poorer prostitutes, not so much their


clients. -- Barak prostitutes. Are you concerned that a colleague of


yours is allegedly exploiting young immigrant men for sex. Let's see


what turns out to be true about all of this. I have known Keith Vaz for


40 years. He has been a good campaigner on a range of issues


about social justice and in all that time, I have never recalled him


talking about sex or anything like that, or drugs. He was always


focused on what he could do to make life better for his constituents or


the wider community. If it is true, surely that would alarm you, that he


was exploiting such young men, potentially vulnerable young men for


sex? Let's see how vulnerable they are. The reality is, do you judge


someone's political career on the basis of one incident like this or


the total worth of over four decades? Everybody makes mistakes.


Some newspapers in Britain today have reported that he has visited


male prostitutes before. Let's see what turns out to be true. The fact


is, don't judge somebody on one mistake they make in their life or


even a couple of mistakes. It is the total that he has done for other


people, in his own constituency and up and down Britain. He has always


been on the side of justice and that cannot just be swept away by one


mistake. Worth repeating that they are allegations as you rightly say.


Could I ask you briefly about your own position? You are still


suspended from the Labour Party for bringing the party into disrepute


over comments he made about Hitler and Zionism. Have you had any


conversation with the party about a way back? Basically, it is no four


months since I was suspended and I am still waiting for the committee


to sit down and decide whether what I said was true or not. I think they


are putting it off because the simple fact is that I have so much


evidence that what I was saying is true. Particularly striking, if you


go to the Holocaust memorial Linda Rougemont, one of the pamphlets they


sell to tourists is about the deal that Hitler did with the Zionists in


the 1930s. I don't think anyone can accuse the Holocaust Memorial


management of being anti-Semitic. You think they are delaying it


because there is so much evidence that it is true? So much evidence.


You probably know that the board of deputies of British Jews want Labour


to expel you immediately attribute reiterated your views on Hitler and


Zionism on Vanessa Feltz' radio programme. I am not surprised,


because if you look at the evidence that the chairman of the board of


deputies gave to Keith Vaz's committee, he opened by saying that


for Ken Livingstone to have said that Hitler was a Zionist is deeply


concerning. If I had said that, I would not just have apologised, I


will just gone to my doctor to check if I was in the first stages of


dementia. To suggest that is mad. He loathed and feared Jews all his life


but he did do a deal with the movement in the 1930s and that led


to 66,000 German Jews going to what is now Israel and escaping the


Holocaust. I will read you a quote from Marie Van Dozzell, vice


president of the board of deputies. Ken Livingstone seems to want to


rewrite history to make it seem like Zionism was responsible for the


Holocaust, which is as false as it is tacitly offensive. Every day that


Labour does not expel him is a stain on the party. It is quite simple. Go


on to the websites, check. You can see the interview with Norm and


Finkelstein defending everything I said. There are dozens and dozens of


books by academics looking at the fact that Hitler signed a deal and


worked with the Zionist movement throughout the 1930s. I have not


even criticise that. The Zionist movement had to deal with the fact


that Hitler was running Germany and if they were going to save the Jews,


they would have to do some sort of deal. Are you bothered that by


repeating your views you are hurting Jewish people? I said at the time,


if anybody has been offended by what I said, I am truly sorry but I have


been struck by a number of people who come up to me on the street and


say, I am Jewish and I know that what you said is true, do not give


into this bullying. The simple fact is that, and the reason I expected


that we have waited so long for this hearing, is that the people doing


work on this now that it is true. What is sending people, apart from


anything else, is the conflating of Hitler with Zionism. I am not


conflating Hitler with Zionism. I am simply saying that he did a deal


which was signed off about three or four months after he became


Germany's Chancellor, and he stuck to that deal right up until 1940.


During that period, 66,000 German Jews were moved to Palestine. Also,


Adolf Eichmann negotiated a deal with the Zionist movements to give


them guns to use in their underground army. He passed a law


that the only two flags to be flown in Germany were the swastika and the


Star of David. It is not just a one-off thing. There was a working


relationship over the 1930s. You cannot blame the Zionists. They were


in Germany and they had a horrendous and brutal government that they had


no option but to work with. Thank you for your time this morning. Ken


Livingstone, former mayor of London and former Labour MP expressing


support for his embattled colleague, Keith Vaz, still fighting for his


political life and repeating his views that Hitler supported Zionism.


Tomorrow, in London, we're holding a big audience programme


As you know Junior doctors are not be going on strike


But they will be going on strike for a week in a month's time.


And then again in another month and so on.


just postponed, and tomorrow we want to try and work out how


You are very welcome to join us, to take part - whether you're


a junior doctor, you work in the NHS, you've been treated


in hospital or are going to be affected by the 5-day strikes.


If you'd like to be part of the programme to share


your views - do email [email protected] to apply.


And hopefully we will see you in the morning. Also tomorrow, the


Paralympics start in Rio. The build-up has been fraught with


problems. It's been dogged by controversy


so far - hardly any tickets have been sold, there have


been rows over funding, rows over the classification of how


disabled athletes are - which has led to one of Britain's


top Paralympic medal hopes - Bethany Woodward - quitting


the games and unlike the Olympics, all Russian athletes are banned over


allegations of state-run doping. With the London Paralympic Games


widely accepted as the best Paralympic Games ever,


will Rio disappoint? Or will rivalry in


competition overshadow Here's the top ten things we need


to know about the games. She was diagnosed with multiple


sclerosis in the mid-1990s and took up swimming as part


of a physiotherapy to help Also joining us from


Coventry is Kester. He's the dad of Charlotte Moore


who has been selected for her first Paralympic Games


with the wheelchair Charlotte was diagnosed


with neuroblastoma, a malignant cancer, when she was


just 12-weeks-old. And on the line is Steve,


the dad of four-time Paralympic Ellie was born with achondroplasia,


a genetic mutation Steve is at Heathrow Airport. You


are about to fly off there. How are you feeling? How is Ellie feeling?


She's positive and can't wait to get at it at the moment. The last time


we had communication with her which was an hour ago! How hopeful is she


that she can achieve similar success this time around? Well, she is


hopeful. We are all hopeful and we all believe that she can, but she


has got the biggest challenge of her swimming career coming up over the


next two weeks, I think, this Ukrainian and Australian girl, the


Chinese, you never know that they're going to do until they turn up. I


think she has got, it will be tough for the next couple of weeks, but


she's capable and she will certainly give it everything she has got. Four


medals last time and two golds, wasn't it? Yes. Brilliant. Yeah,


hopefully she will be. OK. Hopefully she will come back with some.


Marcus, hello. Hello. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. How does


Jo go from swimming to archery then? It is one of those things. She had a


wonderful journey with her swimming and had great success, but I think


perhaps the lure and ambition of Paralympics enabled her to start a


new journey and head that direction. I think she won European and world


medals since going professional? Yeah, she has. She has done very


well. It has been a wonderful journey over the last three years


and her performans seem to improve constantly and as a result she has


been able to win the medals. Chances of getting a medal at the


Paralympics in Rio, what do you reckon? It is about her performance


and as long as she delivers the performance that she has been doing


over the last three years, she will be in the shake-up at the end and


that's what she has been doing in all the training. Do you get


together as a family? Is there a big family when she is competing? We


catch up whenever we can and we caught up before she left for Rio


and like everybody else, we're staying in contact through


electronic means and she is down at Rio now and I saw lovely pictures of


the area they will be shooting in, in the coming weeks. Tell us about


Charlotte, your daughter? Yes, Charlotte was diagnosed with neuro


blast tomb ma when she was very young, when she was a baby. She has


been very active. We took her along to a wheelchair tennis camp when she


was four-and-a-half and she loved it. She was playing around and


starting to hit the ball at a young age. So she started playing


wheelchair tennis and ended up racing when she was five or six when


she did some racing and she carried on doing those two sports and ended


up joining, she was on the Great Britain Junior programme for tennis


and was, she won the London, the Virgin London Wheelchair Mini


Marathon with her racing, she was a good racer and good tennis player.


Then she started playing wheelchair basketball when she was eight. She


played for the local team in Coventry, Coventry Crusaders and got


spotted by the British wheelchair basketball set-up and it progressed


from there, playing for Great Britain at the age of 14, I think,


she was in 2013, playing out in Frankfurt was her first major


international at the Europeans there. I don't know if you heard


about Bethany Woodward who was a London 2012 silver medallist, I'll


ask all of you this, she claimed more able-bodied athletes are being


wrongly classified to boost medal prospects. Steve, have you heard


about this? What's your view on this? Well, there is certainly a lot


in the swimming press about it causing misinformation and there is


certainly a lot written about it and there have been one or two


high-profile incidents of it, I think. I'm sure it happens, but I


don't think, certainly from Eleanor's point of view, I don't


think there is anything that affects her, but I think it happens, but it


is just part of disability sport or Paralympic sport, I guess. Right.


But it is not good, but it certainly seems to be out there. Marcus, is it


part of Paralympic sport? I think like everything, there has to be a


process of classifying everybody and a lot of work is done to make these


systems as fair and as detailed as they possibly can. To have that


level playing field for all the athletes. Always though, I think at


all Olympics historically there are small issues that come up. It is


unfortunate for the athlete, hopefully it doesn't have an impact


on the athletes that are competing and they are able to enjoy what a


wonderful spectacle of theoriy Paralympics. What about you Keser?


It is a difficult one. If I think about wheelchair basketball, it is


classifications from a one-point player which is a player carrying


the most disability if you like, the least function, right through to 4.5


which is a player who is reasonably able-bodied with one disability, but


nothing affecting their spine or their trunk, but it is a range. It


is a spectrum and within classification point, there is a


one-point player, the difference between a one-point player and a 1.5


or a two, it has to be a change and you're always going to have a player


at the bottom of the range and a player at the top and a number of


players in the middle and it can be difficult for the class fires, I


think, to know exactly what they're looking at and if somebody wants to


try and cheat the system, hopefully they can't if there is the right


review panel in place and they've got the right evidence apart from


observing the player on and off the court, but looking at good medical


records as well and trying to make a judgment, but I think it is


difficult. It is a spectrum, but trying to achieve a level playing


field is never easy and I suppose you're always going to have


controversial cases, you know, at either end of the spectrum really.


Listen, thank you all so much. Thank you, Marcus. Thank you Kester, thank


you Steve and good luck to Jo and Charlotte and Ellie. Thank you.


Throughout the programme today seven-year-olds Helen,


Bea and Lottie and Kit have been reading a new series of JK


Rowling short stories out today...which feature some


of her characters from Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and Wizardy.


It feels like days ago now kids. How is it going, Kit? It is going very


well. Can you say that with more enthusiasm? The book is very good.


Tell me the book you're reading? It is an uncomplete and unreliable


guide to Hogwarts it goes into all the in-depth bits which really


serious fans will want to know, you know, how that was made, how JK got


the idea for that and for further into the book it explains the


Philosopher's Stone, how that's an actual thing and not something she


made up. It really exists? She took the idea from alcamy. Have you


enjoyed it? Yeah, I have enjoyed and it is definitely interesting because


it answers the questions, some of the fans might have about the book.


I think it is really good actually. Have you reached the end? Yes. Mark


out of ten? As a moderate fan it is a good eight. But if you're serious,


you need to read all three probably! How have you been doing Lottie?


Good. Last time we spoke you were up to 30%. I read two books. Two books!


You are pulling my leg Lottie! There is no way you've read two books in


an hour. She has. Seriously! What did you think? Good. Which one did


you prefer? Mm. It was the... No, it was that one. Hog wart's Of Heroism.


I'm on 98%. Perfect timing. What do you reckon? Really good. Can you


give me your best bit or not? No. Helen, how has it been for you this


morning? Have you spent better mornings in your classroom at


school? LAUGHTER


Have you enjoyed the book? Yeah, OK. So in terms of real Harry Potter


fans, these are perfect. Do you not ever think, enough of Harry Potter.


They don't half carry it on and cash it on it? I mean, it is a series


that's been going and going, you've got games and movies. It has been


very successful, but at the point of view of a reader, it is amazing. It


has got so big, that just shows how good it is and how entrancing it is.


I guess it deserves the praise it has got and with the carry on like


these, I don't know if there will be more books, possibly, yeah, I think


we should carry on. If you are wondering how they are allowed to be


here, their teachers are on an in-set day! Thank you very much for


watching today. We are having a debate tomorrow on


junior doctors, do join us then. BUZZER


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