07/09/2016 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello. It's Wednesday.

Good morning and welcome our programme.

Today we're debating with you the junior doctors strike.

Plus plus

I support the strike patient safety is put

we simply cannot accept this new contract.

Hi - I'm Joanna - a junior doctor - I don't support the new contract

but the thought about striking breaks my heart.

With us this morning around 50 people who're either junior doctors,

or who work in the NHS or who hold strong views about the dispute

which has dragged on for several years now and could yet see

another 15 days of strikes before the year is out.

Hi I'm Saurav - a legal consultant - I am against the strike -

I fear it will compromise patient safety.

I've watched the controlled demolition of the NHS and I totally

support the doctors. I'm really, really keen to hear from

you. You can e-mail us. You can tweet us. You can usual the hashtag

or you can text and your texts tab charged at the standard network

rate. We're live until 11am with a special

programme about the junior doctors We'll hear much more from our

audience throughout the programme. But before all that, let's get

all the latest news with Joanna. The chairman of the troubled

Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust has defended the decision to create

a new post on the same salary for the trust's chief executive

after she quit in the wake Katrina Percy had faced multiple

calls to resign over her Trust's failure to investigate

hundreds of deaths. Now the BBC has learned

that her new ?240,000 a year job didn't exist previously,

and she was the only The Trust's chairman Tim Stuart says

the job needed doing and that Ms Percy was "uniquely qualified"

to carry it out. I mean it is fantastic the changes.

Katrina Percy has faced months of criticism for the way her trust

failed to investigate patient deaths. These are people, you should

failed to investigate patient be investigating every death that's

not expected. This is outrageous. You can't do this to people. That's

why your services aren't good because you really don't care about

them. Last week, she resigned and went straight into a new job at the

same trust and on the same salary. ?240,000 a year including benefits.

Today her chairman gave details of the move in an exclusive interview

with the BBC. REPORTER: Did the new job exist

before Katrina took it? The work needed to be done. Did that new job

exist before Katrina took it? No. Did you advertise that job so other

people could apply? No. Was Katrina the only candidate? She is uniquely

qualified for it. Was she the only candidate? Yes. To many people that

will sound like a fix? But that's not the case. He said Katrina Percy

was uniquely qualified to remain at the trust. She will now be giving

strategic advice to GPs, a role that was needed. Relatives were outraged

at the side-ways move. Somebody in her position of responsibility, who

is letting so many people down, and we have seen all of those deaths

which went by, uninvestigated, and she is still there and she is taking

a side-way step with her salary, I think it is outrageous, completely

outrageous. Southern Heth say they have addressed the failings,

highlighted in a series of reports and that patients are now safe. I

can unequivocally look you in the eye and say that every member of

staff that I have met, who works on the front line, is putting patient

safety and the quality of care first.

They still face criticisms and are now being investigated by the Health

and Safety Executive over the earlier deaths of patients.

Viewers in the South of England will be able to see a documentary

on this at 7.30pm tonight on BBC One.

It'll also run across the country on the News Channel at 8.30pm.

Passengers on one of Britain's busiest rail lines face more delays

today in the latest 48-hour strike by on board guards.

Southern trains are in the middle of a bitter dispute with the RMT

union over who should close the doors on their trains.

Our Transport Correspondent Richard Westcott reports.

This is a bitter row that's triggered months of strikes

Southern wants more drivers rather than on-board conductors to start

The RMT union says that's less safe and claims it's an excuse to cut

A guard is an absolutely safety-critical role and we can't

allow trains to be travelling without any guard on board.

The company says no one will lose their job and driver-only

trains have been running safely for decades.

We've said to the RMT, you know, come and be

part of the solution and not the problem here,

come and talk to us about how we implement this because it

It's piling on the misery for Southern passengers,

who already endure the worst delays and cancellations in the country.

Matt Steel used to be a Southern customer until his commute

from Sussex to London got so bad he packed in his job,

found work closer to home and started cycling instead.

I've got a young family and it just meant I never got to see them.

By the time I arrived in they were getting ready to go

to bed, so we didn't really have much time to spend together.

The strike means four out of every ten trains won't run

The UK and Australia are to open preliminary

negotiations about a future post-Brexit trade arrangement.

Australia's trade minister Steven Ciobo, who is in London

to meet International Trade Secretary Liam Fox, said officials

from the two countries would meet twice a year to discuss the outline

But he added that formal negotiations can't start

until the UK leaves the EU and that it would be at least

two-and-a-half years before any deal could be finalised.

Our assistant political editor Norman Smith is at Westminster.

So Norman is this the shape of things to come? Well, it gives an

insight into the amount of time it is going to take to secure trade

deals once we leave the EU and what's significant about these

comments is Australia, probably at front of the pack, when it come to

striking a deal because they are keen to reach an agreement with us.

Theresa May and the Australian Prime Minister at the recent G20 both

stressing the countries close ties with each other and the desire of

both nations to get an agreement. The best we can expect is some deal

within two-and-a-half years. That's the best case scenario and as

importantly, he says that we could not get down to the detailed formal

negotiations until Britain has actually left the European Union and

even then, Australia wants to focus first on getting a deal with the EU,

echoing exactly what President Obama said recently that the EU will come

first. Thank you, Norman.

Babies delivered by caesarean section are significantly more

likely to grow up to be obese according to new research.

The study published in the US medical journal, JAMA Paediatrics,

found babies delivered by C-section are 64% more likely

Experts say rising caesarean rates could contribute to

Researchers warn of a "vicious circle" because overweight women

are themselves more likely to need a caesarean.

Councillors in London have voted to close

the well-known nightclub, Fabric.

Police had called for its licence to be revoked, after two teenagers

at the club died as a result of taking drugs.

Almost 150,000 people signed a petition to try

With me now is Danny Rosney, from BBC Radio One's Newsbeat.

A really well-known club. Is this a surprise? It is really because it is

one of the most visited clubs in the UKment people come from all over the

world to come to Fabric. I was at event last night and there was

hundreds of people there in support of Fabric and it is not the decision

that they were hoping for, but two people did lose their lives there

over the summer. Is it unusual for a decision like this to be taken? I

think for a club of this size and in particular, yes, especially when you

have got huge artists talking it from the likes of SG Lewis, Annie

Mack and Mr Jam, it is a club where a lot of DJs start their career and

develop as artists, it will affect the industry quite significantly, I

think. Is that it? Can they try for another licence? They can appeal,

but you know, who knows what will happen with that? OK, thank you very

much, thank you. A long lost letter from a dying

woman to her young daughter has been discovered in a pile of second-hand

books and reunited The letter was written

to Bethany Gash, by her mother Lisa The book, the letter was kept in,

disappeared during a It was discovered by chance

by Gordon Draper who runs a book shop in Bishop

Aucklands near Durham. Marcus Rashford for his exploits

last season for both The teenager has now scored

on his Manchester United debut. This time he bagged a hattrick

against Norway in their qualifier for the European Championship next

year which finished 6-1. The 18-year-old wasn't

included by Sam Allardyce Because he's not been playing

for Manchester United. Although on his only

appearance this season. Last night in Colchester he wrapped

up the first hattrick How have Portugal been getting on?

Yes, they did well, but not so well last night. They lost 2-0 to

Switzerland in their opening qualifier. The home side's goals

came in quick succession in the first-half.

A the Portugal side were without Cristiano Ronaldo who was injured in

the finals and hasn't played since. Portugal's defence were barely

beating, but they are off to a losing start in this campaign.

Switzerland also had a man sent off late on.

Let's talk about the US Open, Novak Djokovic through to the semis? Yes,

they're parting like the Red Sea for Novak Djokovic. For the third time

in this year's tournament, he didn't have to complete his match. Tsonga

was two sets down when he decide he couldn't continue due to a knee

injury. Djokovic had a walk-over in an earlier round, so the defending

champion only needed to play nine completed sets. He will take on

another Frenchman in the last four. Cricket... Some physical issues I've

in the last month-and-a-half. This was, the scenario that I needed and

I wished for. So I got a lot of days off. Recovered my body and right now

I'm feeling very close to the peak and that's the position where I want

to be. This Grand Slam is very unique for me, I never experienced

something like this. To have three retirements on the route to the

semifinals, I can only wish all of my opponents a speedy recovery. It

is all I can do. Well, let's move on to cricket.

England's final match of the summer today? Yes, that's right. After a

long and not necessarily always hot summer, England take on Pakistan in

their international T20 at Old Trafford. They broke the world

record for the highest ODIs scored with 444-3 at Trent Bridge, but not

to be outdone and a week later, Australia smashed a new record in

T20 cricket with 263-3 against Sri Lanka. The total included 145 here

for Glenn Maxwell off just 65 balls. It is the second highest score in

all T20 internationals. Eight days ago Sri Lanka held the record for

the both the ODI and T20 cricket and now they have neither! Oh dear.

Paralympics begin in Rio. Yes, it has been a wait if you were having

withdrawal symptoms after what happened in the Olympics, but they

do start tonight. It is just over ten days or so that they will be

going on in Rio. This is the flagbearer for Paralympics GB. Lee

Pearson. He is one of the greatest Paralympians this country produced.

He is 42 years old and won ten equestrian gold medals and the

target for Paralympics GB is one better than what they managed in

terms of medals in London 2012. Just the 121. We will see how they get

on. Yes, come on, they can do it. Hugh, thank you very much.

Back to Victoria. This morning - do you support

the junior doctors' strike? Peter says, I am behind them, and I

am awaiting an operation. This on Twitter, the BMA is using these

people to play politics with patients' lives.

Since the beginning of 2016 junior doctors have been on strike six

They were due to walk out for five days next week -

that's been cancelled, as you know, over patient safety,

but they're still due to strike for five days in October,

This row has been going on for two years now since England's Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt first proposed a new contract.

This all began at the tail end of 2012.

Junior doctors in England needed a new employment contract.

That's 55,000 people, about a third of the medical workforce.

But by 2014 talks on a new deal were already proving difficult.

The doctors' union, the BMA, was worried about working conditions

For years, it has been too hard to access the NHS out of hours.

Heart attacks, major accidents, babies - these things

Then the Conservative Party went into the general election

with a promise - making the NHS a full, seven-day service.

The Government wanted to make it cheaper for hospitals and surgeries

to rota doctors on in the evenings and at weekends.

It planned to raise basic wages, but cut extra pay

Doctors argued the new plan was unfair and unsafe,

and more investment was needed to pay for a full seven-day NHS.

I trained in the UK and Iwant to work in the UK.

But I'm not going to work in an NHS England where this

The most recent saw junior doctors withdraw emergency care

Then, a pause was agreed and talks restarted.

It looked like a breakthrough was possible.

The Government offered concessions on weekend and part-time paid.

The doctors' union, the BMA, said it had reached a deal it could

What we wanted to see was a proper negotiation were both sides tried

to find realistic solutions to the problems that junior doctors

face across the NHS, that is what we have

The BMA still had to put the deal to its members,

The Government said it would impose the contract

More industrial action is now likely, with a series of five-day

The first, planned for next week, has been cancelled because of

The next, at the start of October, will go ahead, though,

The dispute over the contract is an England-only issue.

Scotland and Wales have both said they will be sticking

to their existing contracts, while Northern Ireland has yet

This is largely because they don't have the pressures on costs in terms

So do you support the junior doctors' strike?

Let's get a snapshot of views from our audience.

Hello. I am Alex, a children's doctor in south-east London. I am

glad we are not going on strike next week, I was not ready, I have just

joined a new department, I don't know if the service can be covered

if I am on strike. But I reject the contract, it is unnecessary and

cruel, an intrusion into our working life. Looking at the wider

situation, it is an attack on the NHS, we have seen waves of

privatisation, PFI under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, and Andrew Lansley

brought in the health once a bill. Today, the NHS is stretched because

of those things, trusts are almost ruined, and the NHS is so stretched.

Jeremy Hunt wants to drive away doctors with this new contract. Do

you believe he wants to drive away doctors? Do you genuinely believe

that? He doesn't care. He has got a manifesto that he wants to carry

out, which was voted for by 24% of people, and he has the short-term

aim. I am Janice, a junior doctor, I work in north-west London, training

to be an anaesthetist. I am mixed. I oppose the contract, it is not a

contract I want to work under, I feel completely disrespected by the

Government and Jeremy Hunt. As a body, we have objected it but they

still think it is acceptable to impose it. But going on strike, you

have responsibility to your patients first and foremost. Did you support

the earlier strikes? Yes, I took part in them. I opposed the

withdrawal of emergency care. The forthcoming strike that are

proposed, it seems that five days of withdrawal of emergency care is a

steep escalation. I support strikes, but the proposed plan in a month's

time does not sit comfortable with me. Withdrawal of emergency care for

such a long period of time. I answered, from Hampshire, a

committee pharmacist. I get what I am hearing, we have the brightest

and best. The issue is twofold, the point you are trying to make and how

you are trying to make it. That is where I would disagree. The NHS has

had years of broken promises, chronic underfunding, it is left

fragmented, week, closing pharmacies down, the staff are not happy. It is

not an issue just for junior doctors. The NHS is not elastic, it

is finite, you tinker with one aspect, it has a domino effect. We

are talking about families, jobs, the wider economy. The thing that

worries me, if the NHS is already on its knees, how is the love of the

NHS going to be further enhanced by junior doctors going on strike's who

is a junior doctor who supports the five-day strikes? Talk to him about

the point he has made. I am Sunday, an accident and emergency training

in east London. I support the strikes, even the withdrawal of

emergency care. We have fantastic consultants who will cover us when

we are not there, the strikes will be from eight until five, I would

have come in to finish my shift after being on the big lines. I

agree that the NHS is not elastic, and we will have an impact, but that

is the point of industrial action. We feel we have been left with

nowhere else to go, there is no alternative. Pharmacists are not

going to go on strike, nor are nurses. He feels there is nothing

left. Either the BMA have let you down or you need to do more in terms

of your reputation. The longer the strikes go on, the more isolated you

will be. There is money in the system to help cover, agency staff,

temping, but that is taking money from other aspects of the NHS, and

you will become more unpopular. Your point will be lost as more impact

will be on families. There was a poll yesterday which suggested that

those people who believe doctors are right to strike is now at about 42%,

that is down from April, when 53% said doctors were right to strike.

You must worry about that. Yes, public support is important. We are

not legally allowed to pay people to come and fill in for us. Extra money

will not be put in for people to cover for our jobs. What option do

we have? We are backed into a corner. I don't think the BMA have

played their cards particularly right, but I blame Jeremy Hunt. Back

off. Leave us alone. Why can't we be like the doctors in Scotland and

Wales, who can concentrate on looking after their patients, rather

than agonising over having to contemplate feeling like we are

rejecting our patients? We have the burden of professionalism, it is a

heavy burden. Having to request that is difficult to contemplate, but

what do we do? I and David, I am an accident and mergers in is in a

major trauma centre. I work alongside Julia doctors, we are a

tight team. It is a busy department. I am also a parent and a patient, a

taxpayer, and aged union steward. Our branch has 2000 members which

have passed a motion supporting the junior doctors and their strikes. I

support them personally. I feel the blame should be laid at Jeremy

Hunt's door, there was no need to push the doctors, they have not gone

on strike for 40 years or longer, they are intelligent, articulate,

well educated, they train for seven years. Do you think of five days of

strikes each month is proportionate to where we are now, even that back

in May the BMA junior doctors committee said the contract is OK?

It is not for me to tell the doctors what they should do. Do you think it

is proportionate? I will support them 100%, whatever they choose to

do. I know how hard they work. The idea of the seven-day NHS, emergency

services run 24/7. We work nights and weekends. It is the elective

services that don't run for seven days. There is no budget for this,

no money being put forward. The NHS has had its budget... Although the

bottom line has stayed the same, in previous years prior to 2010 is that

every year there has been between a 4% and 2% uplift, because of the

extra demand, and that stopped in 2010, so the money that has been

going in for the last six years has declined. That is why we have Jeremy

Hunt pushing for this transformation and sustainability agenda, a planned

we know nothing about, he has not talked to the public about it, a ?22

billion cut in funding. Thank you. Hello. I am Lauren, a GP trainee, a

fifth-year junior doctor. I support the strikes and I and against the

contract imposition. But I hoped that the strikes would not happen.

The escalation is quite scary, to go to five days walk-out. Scary for us.

I am scared our patients will be affected. I am working in obstetrics

and gynaecology, I know the consultants and senior non-trainee

doctors will do an excellent service in covering the emergencies, but

elective services like antenatal clinics will have to be cancelled,

so the doctors will be released to cover the emergency services. What

is it about the contract specifically that you don't like's I

don't like that the Government has recognised it as a contract that

disadvantages women. Do you mean women or part-time workers? I mean

part-time workers, who are predominantly women. One of the good

things about the old contract is with annual pay increments we have

avoided a gender pay gap. If Jeremy Hunt addressed the part-time

workers' pay issue, you would accept the contract? That is one element I

disagree with, there are a number. There is the part-time workers, what

else? Non-resident on-call workers. Staff in areas like oncology, who

work a 9-to-5 shift, and from then they may work from home, they may

work from hospital, they can go home if they are not needed immediately,

they will be on-call overnight, with the willingness to come in or answer

questions by phone. Why is that an issue? They are my colleagues, they

will take a massive pay cut. They are paid as if they are in hospital

currently. The shifts can vary, some of them can be odorous, some can be

less so. Even if you are at home and not called in, you are still waiting

by the phone. Are there more issues? I don't know how many more! I want

to get to the specifics if we can. In the last few minutes, we have

heard one of the problems. For some people, it is about privatisation,

the seven-day NHS, for others, it is about technical details of a

democratic employment contract. The other publication is that the BMA

committee and leadership agreed what was put forward and made clear that

it had dealt with quite a few of these important issues. I know there

is an issue about who recommended it, and I accept it was not fully

recommended by the whole of the BMA. Some people thought it addressed

these concerns. But I get the fact that 58% rejected it for their own

reasons, and that is an important part of the debate as well. Some of

these issues have got confused in an employment dispute. Wide issues

attached to the contract dispute. Let's go through the other issues.

What else? Specifically. We talked about gender

discrimination. We talked about the nonresident on call. I would like to

see better protection for study. We are consultants in training. We are

qualified doctors, but we are training to become consultants.

The next one? If we are looking to spread us over weekends and nights

more thinly, we get our training by working with senior members of

staff. And if we're spread more thinly, we're not going to get those

opportunities. The contract doesn't mention that. All sorts of people

could have all sorts of concerns, anxieties, grievances if you want to

go that far. It is nothing to do with the contract. The contract is

not about that. But the contract will impact upon that is the issue.

The people who are negotiating the contract, we have doctors in the

BMA, but we have the Government's spokes people, they haven't worked

as doctors and they don't understand the pressures and that concerns me.

So you have got a number of issues and a number of other junior doctors

will also have their own issues. I want to ask this question now, but I

want to ask it now. How is this going to be resolved because so many

issues are being attached to this contract? I just wonder why this

contract has to be imposed now? Why can't we make a contract that we

agree on? APPLAUSE

Hugh Pym, we have a doctor who is on the junior doctors committee at the

British Medical Association, that's the union for health care

professionals, we've got Mike Wood, a Conservative MP, we have Professor

Modie. Welcome to you. Sorry Victoria. We don't support the

strikes. We are here to support our members and we are here to speak on

the hab of of children. The Director of Reform. And Hugh Pym who I have

already introduced. Mike Wood, just to say, we invited Jeremy Hunt to

come on the programme and he declined and we asked for anybody

from the Department of Health to come on the programme, they

delivered. The point raised by our junior doctor here, why does Jeremy

Hunt have to impose this contract? Well, I mean, obviously we saw in

the video clip these negotiations have been going on for four years

now. Is that a good enough reason to now impose it? The question is, are

these negotiations going any further forward? We thought we'd got a

solution that was obviously co-authored between the BMA, the

Department of Health and the NHS employers, the leaders of the junior

doctor committee described it as beneficial to our patients and

beneficial to our junior doctors. They said that it addressed the

questions over equalities, that it was an improvement on equalities.

Now, of course... But then the members voted against it?

Absolutely. I think the BMA have to look at how they've engaged their

members in terms of representing and recognising what concerns were, but

there is a wider problem with the amount of hysteria really that was

being whipped up when junior doctors were told they would be losing 30%,

50% of their pay which wasn't true. It is not true in the new contract.

You're representing, you're on the Junyard doctors committee on the

BMA, deal with Mike Dudley's point. You've led your members up to the

top of the hill and you have had to march them back down again by caving

in about the strikes next week, you have people describing you erratic.

You're not in control of the situation? Firstly, thank you for

inviting me here today, it is a privilege to be here and to hear so

many people's opinions on where we are and what's going on. The first

thing I want to do is just talk about the fact that, we have been

talking about are you pro or against strike? I would like to think all of

us are against strike action. No one wants to leave hospital. I'm a

junior doctor first. At the end of the day, my patients are my

priority. I'm sorry to interrupt, I keep hearing you say that, and you

keep going out on strike. This is part of the problem that we have is

that at the moment, we have done everything short of this to this

point. Throughout this process, we have been trying to find a solution.

The problem we have is, unfortunately, the Secretary of

State is not just not listening and not engaging in that process, but

the problem we have now is, he is forcing through plans that not just

independent experts, not just the front-line staff in our hospitals

our junior doctors are saying are uncosted and untested and damaging,

but even the Government's... You said this deal was all right. It is

the same deal. Let's be clear, the leader of the junior doctors said

that within the constraints that we had, in the eight day that is we had

to try and negotiate in that time, under the new sort of criteria that

were laid out with ACAS and David Dalton, unfortunately in that time,

he felt we had reached the best deal we could, but it was always subject

to a referendum because ultimately junior doctors have to decide, they

are the front-line staff and we informed them so they could make an

informed decision. Victoria, I think that it is

unhelpful to polarize the debate into do you support the strikes or

do you not support the strikes? That's for simplistic purposes. I

acknowledge that everybody watching and many people in this room, it is

not as simple as black and white, there are so many nuanced views and

hence two hours to discuss it? Thank you for acnobblinging. Can I ask

colleagues to join me in a thought experiment. Let's for argument's

sake says that the junior doctors strike haven't happened. Let's wipe

them off the face of history. Where would we be with our Health Service

today? We would be with acute trusts in ?2 million in deficit, ?200

million, that was billion the first figure, ?1 million of public health

cuts and find GPs struggling to get sufficient training to look after

children for whom I speak, we have seen in the last fortnight the

suspension of paediatric A services, we have seen reports that

from our national charity that show that 1,000 babies a year have been

unnecessarily transferred between hospitals because of lack of

capacity. We have seen a put to HEEs budget and the relevance to the

point I'm making is that were the junior doctors dispute not to have

happened, the NHS Public Health England, everything that encompasses

general practice services would be in a very, very difficult situation

indeed. So I suggest that if we are going to speak about health care,

patient safety, public well-being, then we have to take all these other

considerations into account simultaneously.

APPLAUSE Hello. There is a wider health

debate, but we're talking about the most extreme strikes in the history

of the NHS, never been done before. There are detailed views about the

contracts, the question is should we go for the strikes to do it? I think

it is a militant response. I don't think we should. I would predict

that the strikes later this year will not happen because the BMA is

losing support. It could not find the support to do this first strike

of these five. I would predict that public support will continue to fall

and we will not have the further strikes. Let me read some more

messages. Dr Jeff O'Leary says, "What I do not understand if the

contract was deemed to be OK in May by the BMA why it seems no not be

now?" Another viewer says, "Accept what is being offered now in

exchange for excellent pay." Caroline says, "Triking is

dangerous, but expecting employees to have no way to protest means we

end up being long-term dangerous rather than being fair and

co-operative. We should back anyone's decision to protest as they

do it when they're left with no other option." And another viewer

says, "It feels like we're witnessing, we are all witnessing

the destruction of the NHS by politicians who are trying to use

doctors as pawns, I support those doctors." Hello.

APPLAUSE I'm an orthopaedic registrar and a

junior doctor of ten years working in north-east London. It is in

response to Andrea and Mike Wood, you used words such as hysteria and

militancy. It is simplistic to consider the aspect of strikes in

isolation without seeing what the alternative is. I don't want to

strike. Striking is a last resort. Striking is a failure to listen. A

failure to come to an agreement, but you have to consider what is the

alternative if this contract goes ahead. I work as an orthopaedic

registrar, I do operations, I know what is required to safely staff a

seven day service. They are trying to stretch five days into seven with

no extra funding, no extra staffing, no extra auxiliary staff, nurses,

physiotherapists, it will lead to danger to patients. Three doctors,

myself and two others cover 130 patients in three hours. We spend

three minutes per patient. To cover those extra clinics on a weekend,

you will take one of those doctors away, so you will have two doctors

covering 130 patients in three hours. The system at the moment is

in a state if anything happens, if a doctor gets sick, if a patient gets

sick, if a member of auxiliary staff gets sick, it collapses and when

your own risk register leaked two weeks ago said of five out of five

severity risk, this is under staffed and it is under funded and I have to

go back to your polls, you said that public support is waning towards a

strike. The ITV poll showed there is an 85% support for the strike. The

poll of members of the public where they surveyed them and said do you

think a seven day service is a priority? Less than 3% thought it

was a priority. They thought that improving the five-day service was a

priority. APPLAUSE

And the last point I would like to make is, the second thing and a lot

of people are not aware of this, junior doctors don't have adequate

whistle-blowing protection in the new contract. At the moment if I see

a problem being done to my patients, harm, malpractice, I want to report

that safely, so that I can actually improve the service and stop harm

being done to patients. So you are putting doctors between a rock and a

hard place. You are asking me to be complicit in driving through a

contract which I know causes harm and which the Government knows

causes harm and you are saying don't report if any harm occurs so you are

lead to go a culture of cover-up. Mike Wood, Conservative MP, respond

to this gentleman. There are clear proposals and improvements in terms

of whistle-blowers and in terms of making sure that junior doctors are

being protected. Equivalent to being employees of health education

England so they will have the legal protection for whistle blowing, but

in terms of the staffing, it is not true to say that we are trying to

stretch a five day staff over a seven day service. There are 9,000

more doctors than there were six years. We're training another 11,500

doctors as part of 80,000 more staff... There was 20% intake into

medical schools this year. I've worked in the NHS for ten years.

Unfortunately, I do know what it takes to staff that. I know what it

takes to staff a weekend service and I'm sorry, that's not true. Let me

bring in Hugh Pym. We are going to talk about this further after 10am.

Let's do it now. Five days into seven days, how does Jeremy Hunt see

that that is going to work? Well, I think the problem with the seven day

NHS debate has got very confused because when the strikes happened

earlier this year it was very much about safety. It was very much about

weekend pay. It was about whistle blowing and fining hospitals and

that's really the key bits of the contract. Now, it has turned into

more of a debate about the seven day NHS and I think the link between the

two in terms of what actually needs to be agreed and the contract is not

entirely clear, but I would put a point to Mike Wood, do you think

Jeremy Hunt confused by saying the doctors contract is linked to a

seven day NHS? Wouldn't it have been better to have focussed on the

contract and not got into the seven day debate? They are linkedment

other parts of the Health Service work seven days a week and they work

night shifts, but the current structure on pay does act as the

disincentive for NHS trusts in terms of how they're structuring their

rotas. It means the same level of support for emergency and urgent

care isn't similar at weekends as it is during the week. Anybody who has

been in hospital at weekends or having to be admitted at night can

see that, it is not equivalent. How are you going to do that if you

haven't got enough doctors, consultants, registrars, there is a

shortage? In terms of the funding that was raised, when Simon Stevens

was head of NHS England reviewed the pressures on the NHS, he said the

NHS would need another ?8 billion in funding by the end of the

Parliament. So the Government has committed to ?10 billion above the

rate of inflation, above normal price increases. That's what is

funding the extra 80,000 people that we're aiming to recruit into the

NHS. You admit there is a problem at

weekends in the emergency service, and I agree, I think services like

diagnostics and people waiting in A are not acceptable at the

moment, but how can you do that by taking extra funding... Sorry, not

putting in extra funding and adding in two extra days? Hugh has done a

film about the seven-day service, the ambition of the service.

Save our NHS! Save our NHS!

At the centre of the junior doctors row is the Government's plan to make

the NHS in England a seven-day service by 2020, a key pledge

in its manifesto and one it believes it has a mandate to deliver.

With a future Conservative Government, we would

The Conservatives envisage people having access to local GPs

seven days a week and, crucial to this debate,

patients receiving the same level of urgent and emergency care

in hospitals in England at weekends as on Monday to Friday.

Junior doctors already work at weekends, and, in fact,

represent the bulk of medical professionals on shift.

Tweets directed at the Health Secretary,

using the hashtag #I'mInWorkJeremy, were keen to prove this point.

But while emergency care is available at weekends,

And, under the current junior doctors contracts,

ministers say it would be too expensive for hospitals to roster

Then there's the controversy caused by Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt's

suggestion that a lack of staff is increasing the

One report he cites, using hospital data from 2013-14,

indicates that a patient is 15% more likely to die within 30 days

if they are admitted on a Sunday than a Wednesday.

The British Medical Journal, however, which published

the findings, believes the data has been misinterpreted.

It says there are other factors that must be considered,

such as how patients admitted at weekends tend to be sicker

than those admitted during the week, and that there is no evidence

to suggest that extra staff would prevent so-called excess deaths.

If the Government gets its way, however, medics believe they would

Whether this will lead to a truly seven-day NHS is unclear.

Leaked Department of Health documents revealed in August that

civil servants worry that a lack of available GPs,

hospital consultants and other health professionals

would mean the full vision could not be delivered.

Government sources said this was a normal risk assessment.

Let's find out more about this ambition for a seven-day NHS. We

have an audience of junior doctors and other health care professionals,

patients, taxpayers, voters. Like Alex, I am a children's doctor. My

father passed away recently, and there were a series of mistakes in

his management that contributed to that, the last was withdrawing his

pain medication was messed up, it was not on a weekend or a strike

date, it was in the middle of a day during the week. Jeremy Hunt is ram

raiding through a contract on the premise of a seven-day NHS with no

extra funding, no extra employment, no actual plan as to how it will

work, and criticism from his department. He will take staff away

from the days that my dad could not be looked after, underfunded days,

putting them onto a weekend with no evidence to say it will work. Even

the papers he is quoting from have said rings like, it is misleading to

say that this will help. It is not something I will stand for, I want

to protect the NHS, and I want the NHS to be something we can be proud

of. Is it right to do that through this dispute? Is a paediatrician and

a British citizen I want to do what is best for the patient, because I

look after formidable children. I am on 13 hour shifts, where I do not

get breaks, and I am looking of the sick children. I fall asleep at the

end in my car and have to get a taxi home. A few hours earlier I are

making decisions about managing a six-year-old child who is not

breathing. The contract will make things worse, not just for the

patients but also for the doctors and the public will stop what are

your thoughts on the seven-day ambition? I am an orthopaedic

surgeon, we do work seven days a week. This weekend I was on call for

48 hours, there was a registrar on site, and I have seen every patient

that has come through the door. We are struggling as we stand to fund

that. To give a smack -- is not shot, we are struggling to get

junior doctors to cover night shift. The system is entirely based on the

goodwill of the junior doctors. We will be able to do what we do -- we

would not be to do what we do without the junior doctors. This

message says, I work shifts, ours are 24/7, 365 days of the year. My

son had to wait over a weekend before his broken ankle was operated

on. I have no support for doctors. Join the rest of us and work shifts,

we don't get special treatment, so wide should doctors? It is not only

me, there has to be anaesthetic staff, and MRI support. Most

hospitals operate on the weekends, I do. What we prioritised was elderly

people who had broken their hips and kids. Ankle fractures have to wait

until Monday. To be clear, as there are not enough of you in that team

to do that operation, you prioritise the very vulnerable and somebody

like this boy would wait until Monday? Your question now is, how

can we continue to do this when there are not more funds? I want to

get more people in, but thank you. I represent the Conservative workers

and trade unionists. I am a patient and I heard our friend say he has

worked for ten years in the NHS, I have been involved for 46 years as a

patient. The seven-day NHS is essential for our modern way of

life. I work in hospitality, my son is an actor, daughter works in

retail, there are so many walks of life where seven-day working is the

norm. If there are not enough people, as many Judeo doctors say,

to do this effectively or safely, what do you say? Look at your

contract. The contract the BMA agreed. The organisation is being

done to make sure the cover is available, extra funding is

available, despite the calls from the BMA. I am a GP, I train Judeo

doctors and I am starting to produce a film called the great NHS heist.

The junior doctors dispute has to be seen in the wider context of NHS

privatisation. What do you mean by that? It will continue to be free at

the point of delivery, say the Conservatives. Hospitals can

generate up to 50% of their income from private patients, the five-year

forward view spells out the closure of 17,000 hospital beds, and it

alludes to the deskilling of hospital staff. Why do you say this

contract is relevant to what you believe in terms of the future

privatisation? There is no more money, we will be the only developed

country in the world offering routine care seven days a week, it

is designed to drive doctors out of the system, that is the intention.

What will happen, you will have a staffing crisis,... You say Jeremy

Hunt wants to drive doctors out of Britain to collapse the NHS, to

enable more private providers to come in? Is that reasonable? In a

bar of people think so. -- a number of people. People have made this

point and putting it together with this issue, what is your take? I

don't see any link between the contract and privatisation.

Privatisation is a loaded term. We mean selling of shares in the NHS

like British Gas, what do we mean use of private providers? That has

never been made clear. The use of private providers with NHS money was

running at about 6%, it is now 7%. For some people it means 93% is

still NHS for others the 7% is significant. It remains a big debate

around the whole service, but linking it with the contract is a

value judgment by some, and if you talk to a range of junior doctors,

they would not say privatisation was their main motivation in this

debate. I am a student, this is directed to you, you are a

Conservative MP, you are not giving... You have not once said...

You are not giving these professionals who take care of us a

straight answer. I will ask you, you are our MP, what are you going to

do? You cannot dismantle the NHS. How are you going to do this? To

resolve the dispute? I am against strikes, I don't should happen. Stop

pushing these poor professionals to a strike, and how... They don't want

a new contract, what are you going to do? You can answer that after the

news and sport, we will get back to that, don't worry. Let me read this

message from one viewer. I am disabled, I often use the NHS, I

support junior doctors, money has been wasted by the changes to the

NHS over the last few years. In my area they have subcontracted out the

Ambulance Service and the cost is enormous. It still does not work

efficiently. I sent an Anne Boleyn is to get to my appointment and I am

the only person in it. Get in touch. News and sport in a second, after

the weather. It was a warm and humid start today

across most parts of the UK. But also really quite grateful sum. This

was the view from one of our weather watchers. There were some breaks in

the cloud. Prior to whether for some of us. Some fairly extensive layered

cloud in Gateshead. A bit of sunshine coming through. A great

start this morning, but some sunshine on offer. We have the weak

weather front to the north and west, tied in with low pressure to the

West. It will become a player in the next day or so. High pressure

between the two. Generating a southerly breeze, bringing in drier

air. It will help to melt the cloud away. We will see some good sunshine

developing across the southern counties. As you head further north,

the cloud is thicker and it will produce some outbreaks of rain. A

good deal of sunshine across South Wales and the southern counties of

England. It will be warm again. A fair bit of cloud lingers through

the Midlands. Even here, the sunshine will try to break through,

but still warm and humid. Some breaks in the cloud for Northern

Ireland and northern England and southern and eastern Scotland.

Through this evening, the cloud continues to melt away, but we look

west for the first signs of a change. The low pressure moving in.

A line of rain through the West of Scotland, will introduce a change.

Ahead of it, it is a warm night. Change is on the way. This cold

weather front moving east. Not much rain in the southern portions. Cloud

and rain moves across the north of the UK. By the afternoon, it has

moved to the east, then we get fresher conditions following behind.

The temperatures will be down, but it is still quite warm. The humid it

will be down as well. A fresher feel. Through the evening, showers

from the West. Towards the end of the week, there will be a line of

showers moving from West to East. Either side of it, fine and dry, but

later in the day, the wind will be picking up, the cloud will be

thickening, and there will be wet and windy weather on Friday night.

If you need more details, it is therefore you online.

Hello, it's Wednesday, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

Good morning and welcome our programme.

Today we're debating with you the junior doctors' strike.

It is in their dispute with England's Health Secretary, Jeremy

Hunt. You blame the BMA, I don't think they have played their cards

particularly right, they could have done better. I blame Jeremy Hunt.

Jeremy Hunt back off. Just leave us alone. We're talking about the most

extreme strikes in the history of the NHS. I think it is a militant

response. I don't think we should. I would predict that the strikes later

this year will not happen. I will support them 100% whatever they

choose to do. I know how hard they work.

In saying that I support the strikes I hoped very much that they wouldn't

happen. I think the escalation is quite scary to go to five days

walk-out. I'm scared that our patients are going to be affected by

this. We will continue our debate on the

programme. Wherever you are, get in touch with your own views. You can

e-mail us and you can tweet us or you can text.

Joanna with a summary of all the morning's news.

The chairman of the troubled Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust

has defended the decision to create a new post on the same salary

for the trust's chief executive after she quit in the wake

Katrina Percy had faced multiple calls to resign over her trust's

failure to investigate hundreds of deaths.

Now the BBC has learned that her new ?240,000-a-year job

didn't exist previously, and she was the only

Katrina Percy has faced months of criticism

for the way her trust failed to investigate patient deaths.

These are people, you should be investigating every death

That's why your services aren't good because you really

Last week she resigned and went straight into a new job at the same

Today her chairman gave details of the move in an exclusive

REPORTER: Did the new job exist before Katrina took it?

Did that new job exist before Katrina took it?

Did you advertise that job so other people could apply?

Was she the only candidate?

To many people that will sound like a fix?

He said Katrina Percy was uniquely qualified to remain at the trust.

She will now be giving strategic advice to GPs,

Relatives were outraged at the side-ways move.

Somebody in her position of responsibility, who is letting

so many people down, and we have seen all of those deaths

which went by, uninvestigated, and she is still there

and she is taking a side-way step with her salary, I think it is

Southern Health say they have addressed the failings,

highlighted in a series of reports and that patients are now safe.

I can unequivocally look you in the eye and say that every

member of staff that I have met, who works on the front line,

is putting patient safety and the quality of care first.

They still face criticisms and are now being investigated

by the Health and Safety Executive over the earlier deaths of patients.

Viewers in the South of England will be able to see a documentary

on this at 7.30pm tonight on BBC One.

It'll also run across the country on the News Channel at 8.30pm.

Passengers on one of Britain's busiest rail lines face more delays

today in the latest 48-hour strike by on-board guards.

Southern Trains are in the middle of a bitter dispute with the RMT

union over who should close the doors on their trains.

40% of services won't run during the strike.

The UK and Australia are to open preliminary

negotiations about a future post-Brexit trade agreement.

Officials from the two countries are to meet twice a year to discuss

But Australia's warned that formal negotiations can't start

until the UK leaves the EU and that it would be at least

two-and-a-half years before any agreement could be finalised.

Our assistant political editor Norman Smith is at Westminster.

Norman, is this the shape of things to come? Well, it gives us an

indication of the amount of time it might take to actually secure trade

deals once we leave the EU with the Australian Trade Minister saying

best case scenario, it'll take two-and-a-half years. Now, why that

matters is because Australia are probably right at the front of the

queue when it comes to future trade deals, they want a deal, both

Theresa May and the Australian Prime Minister at the G20 this week were

stressing the common ties between the two countries and how they would

both benefit from an agreement, but if it is going to take

two-and-a-half years for Australia, then, of course, there will be

speculation in That more complex, bigger markets, less open, less

friendly markets are going to take an awful lot Langer and it will be

an awful lot hard tore reach those crucial trade deals. Thanks, Norman.

Junior doctors have been telling this programme why there is so much

anger about the Government's decision to impose a new contract

The British Medical Association has called off next week's industrial

action amid concerns about patient safety,

but 15 days of strike action are planned from October onwards.

In a special debate, doctors and those in the medical

profession have been telling this programme why they feel so strongly

The thing that really worries me is if the information is already

crippled, if it is also on its knees, how is the love of the NHS

going to be enhanced further by the doctors going on strikes? I support

the strikes, even the withdrawal for emergency care, in the emergency

departments, we have fantastic consultants who will cover us when

we're not there. That's a summary of

the latest BBC News. Marcus Rashford has had

another debut to remember. The Manchester United teenager

scored a hat-trick on his first appearance for England's Under-21

side as they thrashed Norway 6-1 The 18-year-old has

scored on his club debut, his Premier League debut and his

debut for the England senior side, but he wasn't selected

for Sam Allardyce's first squad due Rashford sealed his hat-trick

in Colchester with a Novak Djokovic has reached the semi

finals of the US Open But for the third time in this

year's tournament the world number one didn't have

to complete his match. Jo Wilfried Tsonga was two sets

down when a knee injury It's the second retirement

from which Djokovic has benefitted He also had a walkover

in an earlier round. He'll take on another

Frenchman Gael Monfils Angelique Kerber is through to

the semi-finals of the US Open for the second time after beating

2015 runner-up Roberta Vinci. The world number two won in straight

sets and will now face Caroline Wozniacki for a place

in Saturday's final. Kerber will become world number one

if she betters the performance of Serena Williams at Flushing

Meadows. World heavyweight champion

Tyson Fury's rematch with Wladimir Klitschko has been

set for 29th Octoberh There's some flash photography

coming up in these pictures. It'll be

11 months after their original fight in Germany after an original date

in July had to be scrapped because Fury picked up

an ankle injury. The British fighter beat Klitschko

in November to claim the WBA, Finally, Great Britain will look

to improve on their London 2012 medal haul when the Paralympics get

underway in Rio tonight. Lee Pearson has been named the

team's flagbearer. He was chosen in a vote by his team-mates.

The team are targeting 121 medals - one more than four years ago.

The headlines coming up later on. Now, back to Victoria. Thank you

very much. This morning we've been debating

the long-running row over a new contract for junior doctors

which has so far led to 162 hours of strike action

including junior doctors Let's hear more from patients. We

have a number of them in the audience as you would expect Hello.

My name is Sarah. I was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years

ago so I have a lot of experience of the NHS, not necessarily through

good reasons. What I'd really like to talk about is how when he was

first diagnosed, my oncology and all the treatment I had for my cancer

was clockwork, it was precision, everything, I felt incredibly safe.

I felt really well looked after and I would like to say a big thank you

to all the NHS staff for saving my life, bless you, I'm very grateful.

Subsequently I have had a lot of post-treatment and things that led

me to access the NHS via A Most notably probably a problem with my

arm which led to me getting sepsis, so it was an urgent case. I saw

people in A who, I saw during my time as a cancer patient, and they

were within an inch of their life. They were spread to, I mean,

thousands of people, it seemed like, you know, I was lying in a bed

really poorly. And everyone was doing everything they could to help,

but it was just chaos. So you have huge, you are hugely grateful to the

NHS and you have huge sympathy for what you see as overstretched staff?

Absolutely. Do you support doctors striking for five days at a time

over the next few months? I do. I think to take such action, I really

believe these people. I know them intimately. I don't believe that

they would be doing this unless they had to. I personally have got a lot

of experience, I am a campaigner for the NHS and I speak to sorry...

Don't you worry about safety to patients in those five days? That's

why next week's was called off because it was too short notice said

various regulators and the GMC are saying look, this could be harmful?

Yes and no, but I really believe there, I think, the seniors will

come out and support them. I am in contact with a lot of medical people

at a senior level who I have talked to in in-depth about this. I'm no

politicianks and I don't know the details of the contract, but I trust

what I'm hearing from senior doctors, registrars, consultants,

they are fully behind their junior doctors, and I believe that they

will support the junior doctors during that period. Of course, there

will be operations cancelled. I don't believe they would be doing

this unless they had to. I fully support them. All right.

APPLAUSE Dr Jeeves Wijesuriya is here. You

wanted to come in here. Thank you for your story and thank you for

your support. We really appreciate it. We talked briefly about patient

safety and we talked about the recent set of strikes being

suspended. Firstly, I want to say that the reason that's happened is

because patient safety remains our priority. Our goal is not an

industrial action. Our goal is a negotiated settlement. The reality

is, when we set out these plans, we gave the notice period that's

required, but ultimately we have a escalation protocol for that reason

so if trusts are struggling to provide the coverage during that

period of time, of course, we are going to step back. That's a

priority for us. So that, so you could step back from the five day

strike in October, November and December then, over patient safety

concerns? If there is a concern about patient safety during that

time, raised by Trusts, we have a process for that, but from what we

know in the action we have taken, our consultant colleagues are there,

our associated specialist, other professionals, pharmacists and

nurses, junior doctors will spend this month working with their

colleagues to ensure that the coverage during that time is

adequate. It is interesting to hear you say if those concerns about

patient safety are raised again, you will step back again. We have a

process. The really important thing is, the best case scenarios, we have

a month to stop this happening in the first place. We have a month for

Jeremy Hunt... APPLAUSE

We have a month for Jeremy Hunt to say, "You know what, the BMA have

listened to experts and professionals and they have put

safety first." Surely it is time for me to say I'm not going to impose a

contract that makes a lot of the problems we have with services

overstretched and not enough staff even worse. Good morning? I'm Fay. I

am a patient in the NHS. I'm currently under going care and I'm

waiting for more tests and possible treatment. And I know that this, if

industrial action does take place then my care could be disrupted and

I'm really very worried. I have been waiting a long time for the tests

that I need to have and this could make it even longer. However, I have

listened to what junior doctors have had to say and when I speak to my

doctor, who recommends treatment for me, there is always risks with the

treatment. So they always say well, if you take this medicine and there

could be these complications, but we think that it is right for you to

take it because the benefits outweigh the risks and doctors make

those decisions every day for us. We trust them to make those decisions.

They're trained to make those decisions to do risk analysis and I

hear that what the doctors have done now is that they have said to us,

very clearly, we have done a risk analysis and this, the imposition of

this contract is more dangerous for you for your health, for my health,

it is more dangerous for my health for this contract to be imposed than

for me to have a delay in my treatment due to the strike.

I can hear the anxiety in your voice about waiting for those test

results. When you explained to your consultant that you are supporting

the junior doctors, what is the response? They are happy that I

support them, that I trust them as professionals who have been trained

to care for me and my family and the health of everyone in this country,

and they are happy I am trusting them to tell me what the right thing

for my health and all of our health is. Hello. Thank you for inviting

me, I am a patient advocate and I run an organisation which runs an

online peer support group for people with diabetes. Tens of thousands of

people take over -- take part in our activities. I understand the plight

of the junior doctors, but I cannot support five-day strike or strike

action by doctors and the NHS. I understand their position and I

totally support the issues and the fundamental issues appear to be much

more about resource constraints within the NHS and trying to deliver

a seven-day service with five days of money and trying to deliver a

system that was built at a time when the budget and institutions which

are still delivering it worth it for purpose. I will call on any junior

doctor here to talk to Paul. Let's have a junior doctor. Janice. Pass

the microphone forward. Junior doctor, and a gentleman who runs...

I completely disagree with the Government stance on this. Not only

has Jeremy Hunt lost the confidence of the doctors, if you were to do a

poll of patients, he would not have the support of patients either. Who

is he representing? The issue that has been raised about patient safety

is the thing that is paramount to me. I have a lifelong chronic

condition, I am reliant on the NHS for the rest of my life, so I do not

just dip in and be proud. -- dip out. You are not sure about the

five-day strikes, you were supporting them earlier in the year,

but now things have changed. You would say, don't do it? Definitely

not. I would like to ask the BMA and the Government, both sides are

claiming that this is about patient safety, where is the patient voice?

In none of this debate for the last two years has any panel of patients

been brought together representing any area of patient concern. What we

have our professionals on both sides of the fence pointing fingers at

each other and it has boiled down to a dispute about contract terms and

conditions and it has been escalated into one of patient safety. Who did

the BMA talk to, which patient groups? The Government have not

spoken to a single patient organisation. When the patients get

a voice? A quick response. I agree. It needs to be part of what we do

going forward. Why have you not so far? It has been a contract dispute

between us and the people looking to impose it. I am being briefed

because we are galloping towards the end of the programme. What we have

heard today is their are a lot of issues, a contract dispute but many

other issues. Should we put the NHS through the biggest strike in its

history about those contract issues? It does not seem to be the right

response. I would respectfully ask... I have the support of most of

the people in this room for our current Health Secretary to resign.

I totally agree with you that whilst I contend that it is between the

junior doctors, the Government, I get that, but if we could get a

patient voice in their from the people who are experiencing a really

challenge NHS, we would keep the support for the junior doctors, and

hopefully they would not have to strike. There is a chance for the

Government to grab this by the horns with the new Prime Minister and do

something substantive, to review what we mean about health care

delivery for the millennial generation and reframe the debate

about the needs of patients for the next hundred years, not just the

needs of junior doctors for the next ten. The point you raise about the

need to engage patients is important, and I think... You

haven't done it. I don't work for the Department of Health. As Hugh

referred to earlier, the Conservative manifesto clearly

committed us to introducing a seven-day NHS, this was not

something hidden away towards the back, it was line one of page one of

the manifesto, not about the economy or Europe. I don't believe that the

junior doctors on the BMA would have recommended a deal in May that they

thought was going to damage patient safety. Because it doesn't. It

reduces maximum working hours, it restricts the number of night

shifts, it restricts the number of longer shifts. This will make things

safer for patients. Can I just clarify a misconception that has

been repeated several times today. There was a point at which we said,

we believe we have made progress. The junior doctors committee, the

people that represent the junior doctors, did not give a view. They

said they would stay neutral, because the decision was always

going to be that of junior doctors, who were informed to make an

educated decision. I am a patient, but I work a lot with the NHS, the

third sector. The debate has become polarised. I was supportive of the

junior doctors and I signed the petition for it to go to Government

earlier on in the year. But I am uncomfortable with this five

consecutive days, 50,000 doctors withdrawing their services. My

father was a GP. He was by those with cancer and died three months

later from his diagnosis. You think the five-day plan is

disproportionate? Yes. That is what I am worried about. You have people

waiting for important results. What worries me is, we covered earlier

on, what are the key issues in this contract? It worries me that when we

start moving the debate onto other things other than resolving that...

We need to move this forward, and we need to get patients in the room. So

it focuses people's minds, the Government and the BMA. We are still

waiting for the BMA and Jeremy Hunt to answer our open letter that we

signed, a group of patients, as we want to see an end of this. The NHS

is already crippled. We will talk about how people here think this

dispute might be resolved. Before that, we have talked about the

five-day strikes that are due in October, November and December, here

are the contingency plans that are in place for the strikes if they go

ahead. A five-day strike has

never happened before. But, across the three planned this

year in England, the Government calculates that 75,000 operations

and 750,000 hospital appointments could be postponed as a result,

with nonemergency surgery, such as hip replacements and back

operations, worst affected. This could mean an increasing number

of people fail to have their routine operation within 18 weeks,

causing them further discomfort and placing added pressure on an NHS

target that is already being missed. Hospitals have, however,

been ordered to ensure that most essential services such as A

and maternity wards are well They've been told to draft

in consultants and other senior doctors in place

of the junior doctors. These services reportedly ran

smoothly in the last set of strikes, but there have been concerns that,

with the NHS traditionally being stretched over the winter months,

the next three strikes Striking doctors, however,

will return to work if their employers become concerned

for patient safety - an option not used in the last

set of strikes. The dispute is in England only,

Scotland and Wales have both said they will stick to their existing

contracts, while Northern Ireland has yet to make a decision.

Dr Jeeves Wijesuriya, who is on the junior

doctors committee at the British Medical Association.

The BMA is the union for healthcare professionals,

Mike Wood is Conservative MP for Dudley South.

He says the Government has no choice but to impose

new contracts for junior doctors after negotiations failed.

Also with us, Professor Neena Modi, who is the president

of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, which

And Andrew Haldenby is the director of Reform, a centre-right

Will the contingency plans be good enough? Having participated in the

previous emergency walk-out, during which my service was covered by my

consultant, who stepped in to support us in our action, they

provided an excellent service for the children who were sick in my

hospital during that time. Can the same be done over five days? I was

not confident about next week, but with more planning it could be. In

the last set of emergency walk-out there was not one single clinical

incident reported in the whole country where patients were put at

risk. When you hear about people making the accusation that we are

being dangerous, it is a myth. We don't know over five days. We have a

responsibility, we are working for the GMC, we have a duty of care for

patients, even when we are striking, and we have to be confident that our

seniors will support us. If it happened that you were on the picket

line during the five days and one of your colleagues ran out and said, we

need you now... We would go in, of course we could. I have to bring you

back to the point that the NHS as it stands is not safe. People argue

about that. Two children's A services have closed recently, 1000

babies transferred because of lack of capacity, further cuts to the

ability of health education England to commission more training places,

so there will be an even greater fall in junior doctor numbers, we

have a shortage of 1000 paediatric consultants, we have had cuts to

Public Health England, we have an increasing burden of chronic

diseases in children. The NHS is creaking at the seams, it is not

safe at the moment, it is really tragic that it has taken strikes

which nobody wants to draw attention to this. But at the least, let's say

that if the public debate and she's, which addresses the current

shortfalls, the current lack of patient safety, that at least will

be a good thing. The contract dispute and some of the specifics we

heard earlier is useful, you think, as a way of drawing in other issues?

I would not have wished it to happen this way. But now that we are where

we are, it has been heart-warming to hear from colleagues in this room,

particularly outpatient colleagues, about what it means to be a patient

in the NHS. When we are talking about publics and they, the public

is always going to be on the side of the doctors. These are people who

have dedicated themselves to the service of humanity, making sure we

live as comfortable as possible. Me and my sister play sport, we always

have injuries and bruises. Each time I have gone to the hospital, I have

had wonderful treatment and I have come back home safely. I don't like

that doctors are being pushed to the limit of their safe procedures. As a

person that uses the NHS frequently, this is terrible to imagine. I hope

Jeremy Hunt has a serious think about what he is doing. Let me read

some more messages from people watching. Ali says, I am due to go

into hospital for a hip replacement soon. The sixth in five years. I

hope you are all right! I am sitting here with a fractured femur. I am in

great pain, but I am 100% supportive of the junior doctors. This message,

why do doctors have the right to pick and choose which shifts they

wish to work's no other emergency services have that right. We require

306 to five day, 24 hour working by the well-paid professionals, they

knew what they were signing up for. Jenny says, last September I had

four disks prolapse from my neck down to my lower spine. I could not

walk Drive, shower or leave the house. I am 35, I had to wait until

January the 3rd to have an MRI you, which took place in the private

hospital, as the NHS could not provide the service. I had to wait

to consultant specialist. I have no intervention other than pain

medication. I have no life. Fix the five-day service, fund a five-day

service, and focus on providing an outstanding five-day service.

Junior doctors, I full support you, but I think you got it.

In the next half hour, we'll look at the current state

of the NHS, but first, let's get a summary of all

The chairman of the troubled Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust

has defended the decision to create a new post on the same

for the Trust's chief executive after she quit in the wake

Katrina Percy had faced multiple calls to resign over her Trust's

failure to investigate hundreds of deaths.

Now the BBC has learned that her new ?240,000 a year job

didn't exist previously and she was the only

The Trust's chairman Tim Smart says the job needed doing and that

Ms Percy was "uniquely qualified" to carry it out.

Passengers on one of Britain's busiest rail lines face more delays

today in the latest 48-hour strike by on board guards Southern trains

are in the middle of a bitter dispute with the RMT union over

who should close the doors on their trains.

40% of services won't run during the strike.

The UK and Australia are to open preliminary

negotiations about a future post-Brexit trade agreement.

Officials from the two countries are to meet twice a year to discuss

But Australia has warned that formal negotiations can't start

until the UK leaves the EU and that it would be at least

two-and-a-half years before any agreement could be finalised.

Junior doctors have been telling this programme why there is so much

anger about the Government trying to impose the crew contract. 15 days of

strike action are planned from October. Doctors and those in the

medical profession have been telling this programme why they feel so

strongly about the strike. You blame the BMA. I don't think they have

played their cards particularly right. They could have done better.

But I blame Jeremy Hunt. Jeremy Hunt back off. Just leave us

APPLAUSE Leave us alone. The thing that

really worries me. If the NHS is already crippled, if it is already

on its knees, how is the NHS going to be further enhanced by the junior

doctors going on strike? Radical preacher Anjem Choudhary

is today starting a five-and-a half year jail sentence for inviting

support for Islamic State. But how should prisons deal

with someone like him? Is it possible to

change their views? Secunder Kermani has been speaking

to one of Choudhary's high profile former supporters who now, thanks

to the work of a de-radicalisation These two men know Anjem Choudhary

and his circle like few others. This man used to be one of his followers.

That changed after he met a trainer who deradical isz extremists

including successfully reforming half a dozen of Anjem Choudhary

supporters. Jammal had been part of a group calling themselves Muslim

Patrol who claim to be enforcing Sharia rules in London. For that, he

spent nearly two years in prison. Since Choudhary's conics, it has

been announced the prison regime is changing. Extremists will be split

from the general population, but will it work? What they need to have

inside the prison are people who are able to challenge when the beliefs

arise within the discussions. They need to have people capable of

challenging them. And are there enough people there? There needs to

be more. Isolating them will not do anything. These individuals one day

have to be released. They are not individuals who will spend the rest

of their life in prison. It is full of challenges. What could end up is

him validating himself and mutating into some type of authority within

that system because the prison sentence gives him his stripes.

REPORTER: Improves his credibility? Yeah. This man has had more success.

How does he get through to them? We're sitting with them. We look at

their perception. Islam was traditionally an oral tradition.

Yeah, it is about sitting with a teacher who then looks at the

textbook and explains what it means. He doesn't just debate ideology, he

forms a strong personal connection. For him to, you know, be concerned

on a personal level, not just an intellectual level, it was never

that discussion to start off with. It is to say we are humans and I

care for you as a human being, to take away that divide that existed

that us and them that existed and to replace with a xlective

understanding. Many de-radicalisation attempts in jail

fail. The current way of dealing or trying to deal with this Islam

fascist ideology is coming in with your own lit tral interpretation. So

we've got a literal interpretation versus a literal interpretation. So

you're basically singing off the same hymn sheet except it is a few

degrees down. And what happens with this is that the individual will sit

there, nod his head, and then as soon as he is at the end of his

licence, he is back in the community, back it his old tricks,

criticising what he has just been through. They think it is possible

Anjem Choudhary could reconsider his beliefs in prison, but in the

meantime, they're dealing with the legacy of his influence in the

outside world. After scoring on his debut

for Manchester United last season AND on his first senior

England appearance too, Marcus Rashford makes it three out

of three with goals on his first His hat-trick against Norway helped

England to a 6-1 win in their European

Championship qualifier. Novak Djokovic has reached

the semi-finals of the US Open But for the third time in this

year's tournament he didn't have Jo Wilfried Tsonga was two sets down

when following treatment on a knee Tyson Fury and Wladimir Klitschko

have rescheduled their world It'll now take place on 29th October

in Manchester after the original date was scrapped because of

an injury to the British fighter. Fury won the WBA, WBO AND IBF titles

from the Ukrainian in their And after a vote by his teammates,

ten-time Paralympic champion Lee Pearson will carry the flag

at tonight's opening It'll kick off 11 days

of action in Rio. More sport later. Now back to

Victoria. We have got people with passionate

views about the junior doctors contract dispute and the forthcoming

strikes. You know the one next week has been called off. Strikes are due

in October, November and December, but as the BMA junior doctors

representative told us, they could be cancelled once your process has

been gone through if I understood you correctly. An anonymous text, "I

am watching from my hospital bed. I can't fault my treatment over the

last eight years. I'm concerned about Jeremy Hunt's motives and I

feel he is using the junior doctors as pawns in his long-term plans for

the NHS." Chris says, "As a former soldier I'm disgusted. In the junior

doctors willingness to hold the country to ransom. It is the Armed

Forces that covered the backs of those that have gone on strike in

the past ie firemen, etcetera. We can't strike and we get paid only a

small fraction of the salaries of those that do. You're losing support

for your cause now. It is time to enact your oath and your obligations

to your public." Let's talk to Hugh Pym about pay. I

read the junior doctors draft contract. It is very long. Lots of

it, I didn't understand. I did understand there is a basic pay rise

of 10% to 11% and if you end up working one weekend in two you will

get 10% of your basic salary as a supplement and if you work one in

four, it reduces. Is that accurate? Victoria, I commend you for reading

the contract! It is a highly complex document. You have possibly read

more of it than I have! But the essence of it is and this is what

this debate and this dispute has been about is how you reward doctors

financially for working very unsocial hours and lots of different

weekends. And what's been the aim of the Government is to raise basic pay

by about 11% and in return, you cut the extra that was being paid out

for working unsocial hours. I think the BMA accepted it was worth

looking at this because it had become so complicated, but the deal

that was reached, and it remains pretty complicated, clearly 58% of

doctors out there didn't feel that it met their concerns. Now, some

people out there are saying, "We work at weekends. We don't get paid

extra." What doctors would say, they work a lot of unsocial hours and why

do they have to sacrifice something financially because there maybe some

at the margins who lose out short-term when we work so hard. The

bigger picture is this business of recruitment and retention. Do you

risk losing doctors longer term if you don't get that balance right at

this precise moment in time? OK. Hands shot up then! Pass the

microphone over here. Hi. Hi. My name is Maria. I'm a senior nurse. I

supported junior doctors through the industrial action last year and I

will continue to support them. What I found throughout is doctors are

really reluctant to complain about being poorly paid. They're really

reluctant to ask for more money. Are they poorly paid do you believe? I'm

not saying they are poorly paid, but they are not well paid. They are in

no way on par with their colleagues in the City. A few years ago, we had

we have to give the bankers their bonus because we don't want to lose

the expertise, we are happy to haemorrhage our well trained doctors

out of this country. I think it is a disgrace. It wasn't just in the last

few years that MPs had been 11% pay rise each year consecutively while

we nurses and doctors have actually had pay cuts because we have not

even had the percentage with inflation. So I think it is really

double standards. Can I ask our representative from the junior

committee on the BMA. It is a basic pay rise of 10% to 11% and if you

work one in two weekends, 10% of your basic salary on top. Let's just

talk about percentage terms. I know there are 100 other issues, what

increase do you think would satisfy your members? So, firstly, when

we're talking about an increase, it is one way of looking at it. The

problem that we have is... Please just answer the question and then

you can tell us about problems. This does answer the question.

Ultimately, what we have right now and we've talked about today is that

we have a huge staffing problem. We have services that are already in

one in seven trusts closing down services or cutting them short

because we don't have the staff to provide them. The areas that we're

seeing that the most in, emergency services, children's doctors, these

are the groups that work the most anti-social hours. What these

changes mask actually is the people that do work those most anti-social

hours are the ones that see a decease in pay. They don't see the

increase. That worsens the recruitment crisis and what is

counter-intuitive is Mr Hunt has been talking about a seven day

service. I'm going to bring you back. What percentage increase would

satisfy your colleagues, do you believe? We need to talk about the

distribution. I'm asking you a really sensible question... I can't

give you an exact percentage because we need to look at those specific

areas and speak to the Government about how they intend to fund them.

Jeremy Hunt has not produced a plan. Something we have asked for over a

yearment we are talking about a plan that no one has seen. There is a man

from a Thing tank who is rubbing his chin. Explain why.

We have been in a pay dispute for two years, one side cannot even tell

us what they would like to settle the dispute. All I want is a

percentage, a figure, that you think would be acceptable in terms of

either the basic pay going up or the supplement for weekend working. Can

you give me a figure? It is not about a percentage. I just want to

keep the same salary I have, I don't want a pay cut or a rise, I just

want to stay the same. What percentage increase would you need

with this contract to bring it back to what you say you have now? My

basic salary is ?36,000 plus a 50% banding. Whatever it is that they

need to calculate to make sure I can get the same take-home pay. Some

sort of increased to match what you get now? OK. Whatever we have now.

Just leave us alone, give us the same contract we have already. With

the new contract, without the pay protection that is being put in

place, I would take a pay cut from the new contract for the same hours.

By what percentage? I think it is about ?300 a month. I know you don't

like the question, so respond. It is illegitimate question when you think

about pay in general and giving a simple answer -- a legitimate. There

is a flexible pay premium watch the Government have to put in place to

ensure that I as a trainee, who work all day, every night, two weekends

every month, the premium can be taken away by the Government

whenever it wants just to ensure I get paid the same as any other

doctor working in the NHS. That this incentivises people from working

they don't have any doctors left, I get e-mails everyday to fill in

ready gaps. Introduce yourself. You are a trainee medic. If this

contract is brought in, what will happen? I am a final year medical

student. How do you feel about going into this profession? Very worried.

My colleagues are concerned as well. Already, we can see that the amount

of medical students coming in has dropped by 20%. We don't know if

that is related to this dispute. I think a lot of it is. As the

professor said earlier, there is a shortage of doctors, and if this

contract is making fewer prospective students joined the field, that is

really dangerous. A lot of the students are sitting exams to go to

America or Australia or Canada. If you think that doctors are paid well

here, they are not all stop --. ?23,000. That is the basic starting

salary. We will talk about how people here think this dispute could

be resolved, if they think it can be. It has got to be resolved at

some point. The man on behalf of service across the UK is rising, so

our costs, which is why the stakes could not be higher.

The latest dispute between junior doctors and the Government

comes at a difficult time for the NHS in England.

NHS England needs to find ?22 billion in annual

Added to that, ministers want to extend services at weekends,

which puts pressure on the existing challenges already facing the NHS,

not just in England, but across the country.

After the vote in June, health leaders warned that

leaving the EU could make staffing shortages worse.

The NHS Confederation said 10% of NHS doctors come from the EU.

People are living longer, putting further pressure on the service.

The growing number of elderly people means more patients

Up to two thirds of hospital beds are estimated to be occupied

Changes in what can and can't be done medically has

revolutionised care, but it comes at a cost.

Treating survivors of medical conditions that in the past

might have killed them requires extra money.

Paying for progress in medical technology costs the NHS