06/12/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


06/12/2016

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LineFromTo

I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

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This morning, more damning allegations over abuse in football,

:00:11.:00:12.

including claims of more cover-ups and that people still

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involved in the game have been involved in abuse.

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I have not seen the absolute proof of it, but victims have come forward

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to us indicating that such clauses have been used elsewhere. How many

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clubs? I cannot the specific, but I know of several. Who have signed

:00:36.:00:41.

similar... ? Victims who say they have been the subject of similar

:00:42.:00:43.

confidentiality provisions. We'll get reaction to that from one

:00:44.:00:45.

man who says he was abused Former Southampton youth player

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and ex-professional Billy Seymour will be talking to us

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in his first live interview. Also on the programme, we'll talk

:00:53.:00:55.

to one of the Conservative MPs who say they'll vote

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against Theresa May in a bid to force the Government

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to reveal its plans for leaving And, this man has been named

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as a non-violent extremist for holding views like this,

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which the Government says Those things which people engage in,

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those actions which people do that are against some people's religious

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views, whilst they have the right legally to do those things, we still

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have a right to at least teach our children and our communities that

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this is a sin. But do such views make

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someone extremist? We'll meet the man

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at the centre of it. Hello, welcome to the programme,

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we're live until 11am. At around 10:30am we'll cross live

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to the Supreme Court in London, where arguments are continuing

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to take place over whether the Government or MPs in Parliament

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should have the final say Do get in touch on all the stories

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we're talking about this morning. If you text, you will be charged

:02:02.:02:06.

at the standard network rate. The FA has just published its full

:02:07.:02:20.

terms of reference for its review into football abuse. It has also

:02:21.:02:24.

announced it has changed the person leading the review, it says it had

:02:25.:02:28.

originally intended that the QC would lead it, but in the light of

:02:29.:02:31.

the increased scope since it was announced, and with respect to her,

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other -- the decision was taken to appoint another QC instead. More to

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come in a couple of minutes. A study suggests that the regular

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use of caesarean sections is having Scientists at the University

:02:44.:02:46.

of Vienna say women with a narrow pelvis, who would historically have

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died during childbirth, are now surviving, to pass

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on the genes of their skeletal A little earlier I spoke

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to our reporter Jane-Frances Academics have looked at data from

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the World Health Organisation and other large studies and they

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estimate looking at the stickers that 30 women in 1000 in the 1950s

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and 60s had a Caesarean section because of a narrow birth canal.

:03:22.:03:27.

This has gone up to 36 in 1000 now. This is because women historically

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would have died in childbirth, but they are passing on the

:03:35.:03:37.

characteristic to their daughter, and those daughters are then passing

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it on to their daughters. Passing on the narrow pelvis? Yes. They are

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also saying that babies are getting bigger, healthier but they have

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bigger heads. They say it is not going to... Sorry, can I do it

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again? I am just tired. We will go from the top. Tell us what the

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researchers are saying. Academics have looked at data from the World

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Health Organisation and other large birth surveys. They have estimated,

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looking at these figures, that during the 1950s and 60s 30 women in

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1000 had a Caesarean section because of the narrow birth canal, because

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of a narrow pelvis, and they say now that 36 in 1000... Historically,

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these women would have died in childbirth, but they are passing on

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this characteristic to their daughter, and it has been passed on

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through the generations. The numbers are still tiny, but now we know that

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Caesarean sections are having an impact on evolution, might that

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impact on the number of Caesarean sections in the future? They say it

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will continue to go up, but it will be slow and slight. It is a small

:05:00.:05:03.

number of women, and babies' heads cannot grow indefinitely. Yes, there

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will be an increase, but there are many reasons why women have

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Caesarean sections, so it will have some impact, but not a large impact.

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You got an insight into what it is like having worked an overnight

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shift and stained later in order to do that report for us, so thank you

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to Jane. Annita is in the BBC

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Newsroom with a summary Lawyers from the Offside Trust,

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launched yesterday to support football players who are victims

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of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse

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cover-ups in football. They claim that "a number of clubs"

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have used gagging orders on players And they say big football figures

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still in the game are named In what's being called the biggest

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shakeup of the railways in 20 years, the Government is to make

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Network Rail share control of track maintenance in England with private

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train-operating companies. The Transport Secretary Chris

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Grayling says Network Rail and the train operators should be

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able to work together With fares going up again

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and punctuality well below target, passengers are often unhappy

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with their train service. There's only one train every hour

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from here to Manchester. My train in the morning is always

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late but it is not late by too much. Now the Government says it has

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a plan to cut delays. At the moment, Network Rail runs

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the track and private The problem is, when things need

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repairing, both sides often disagree about who is responsible and how

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to fix it, which creates delays. Now the Government says it wants

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Network Rail and the train firms to form local teams,

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working together, not At the moment we've got a situation

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where we've got different companies, often talking different languages,

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doing different things, not speaking to each other properly,

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throwing contracts around It's about evolving into a teamwork

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structure into the frontline of our railways so that the train

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operators, the infrastructure teams, work hand in glove to deliver

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a better outcome for passengers. In a unique experiment,

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the Government also wants a private company, not Network Rail,

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to control everything on a proposed new line

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between Oxford and Cambridge. If it is successful,

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ministers have not ruled out trying something similar on other lines,

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although it would be much harder Unions say it is an attempt

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to privatise track repairs and argue A key part of the Government's

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counter-terrorism strategy, Prevent, is challenged in the High Court

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for the first time this week. The Home Office says

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the strategy plays a key role in the fight against terrorism,

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but a British Muslim activist, who was named as a non-violent

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extremist by the Government, will argue that the strategy

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breaches his right to free speech. Some of the world's biggest tech

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companies are teaming up to prevent extremist material

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being shared online. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube

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and Microsoft will share details of images and videos they remove

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from their own sites to stop Lawyers representing the team

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leading the legal fight against the Prime Minister's Brexit

:08:19.:08:24.

strategy will begin The landmark Supreme Court hearing

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begins hearing a second day Yesterday, Government lawyers said

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the ministers had the power The High Court ruled

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against the Government in November and said Parliament should

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be consulted first. You can get hourly updates on the

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BBC News channel all morning and full coverage live this afternoon of

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the arguments being put forward by lawyers for those who brought the

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case. You can also catch all of the proceedings live online, with

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rolling text updates and analysis. Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

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has been shortlisted by the US magazine Time

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for its Person Of The Year award. The magazine says his role

:09:14.:09:16.

in helping bring about Brexit started what it calls "a global

:09:17.:09:19.

populist wave against Others on the shortlist of people

:09:20.:09:22.

deemed to have most influenced the news in 2016 include

:09:23.:09:28.

Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Turkey's President

:09:29.:09:31.

Erdogan and Beyonce. The Brazilian football club

:09:32.:09:38.

Chapecoense, which lost 19 of its players in last week's plane

:09:39.:09:40.

crash in Colombia, has been awarded the Copa Sudamericana title

:09:41.:09:43.

by the governing body The team was on its way to take part

:09:44.:09:46.

in the final of the competition when the plane they were travelling

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on crashed near That's a summary of

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the latest BBC News. A couple of comments on the

:09:55.:10:09.

Government's strategy to deal radical as people. She says, Prevent

:10:10.:10:15.

does more harm than good and build a relationship of distrust in targeted

:10:16.:10:20.

communities. It is used as a judgment tool by those who are not

:10:21.:10:27.

experienced enough to judge. It has shown it does not work and that

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pushes them deeper into isolation and extremist thoughts. Anthony

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says, there is a fine line between free speech and extremism. He has

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been seen as supporting an organisation which could be

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interpreted as hate speech. Do get in touch with us

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throughout the morning. If you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate. Let's get some sport

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now with John Watson. John, it seems that Alastair Cook

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will continue as England captain at least until the next

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Ashes series? He surprised people when he said he

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was not sure if he would continue. He said it could be two months or

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two years. That shocked some people in the England Test cricket camp,

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they were surprised by his comment. But Trevor Bayliss, the head coach,

:11:28.:11:31.

has qualified the comments, he said they have been taken out of

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proportion, and he expects Alastair Cook to be in the role for the next

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Ashes Series in Australia next winter. Alastair Cook is hugely

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experienced, the most capped test player Tom Moore Test cricket runs

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than anybody else. When he steps down, there is no suggestion that he

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will not continue to open the batting, but Trevor Bayliss says he

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is up for the fight and he expects him to be in the role as captain for

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the Ashes Series. Manchester City and Chelsea have

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been charged by the FA for failing to control their players

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at the weekend? Some ugly scenes at the end of the

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match, Chelsea won 3-1, it was sparked by a tackle by Sergio Aguero

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on Dafydd Louise, he has been banned for four matches, but there were

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ugly scenes, a melee, the player is fronting up to each other, the worst

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moment was when Cesc Fabregas was bottled round the neck by

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Fernandinho, who has been banned for three matches. It was ugly. Both

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teams have been charged, they have until 6pm on Thursday to respond.

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Ugly scenes at the end of that match, as seems likely to face the

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consequences. And finally, John, the most

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tweeted-about sporting moments Remember when England were element

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edited by Iceland in the year rose? Everybody was talking about it. It

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was the most tweeted moment on social media, sporting moment.

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128,000 tweets per minute, 21,000 more than when Leicester City won

:13:10.:13:14.

the title. The bad news proving the most interesting talking point on

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social media, as opposed to what was a fantastic moment when Leicester

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City won the title. It got people talking. Great news for Iceland

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fans. This morning, claims of more

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cover-ups in football over the sex-abuse scandal which has

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dominated the news since this programme first interviewed

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Andy Woodward about his abuse. Lawyers for a support group

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called the Offside Trust, set up by the four players who spoke

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with such dignity here on our sofa two weeks ago,

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say gagging orders on players sexually abused by coaches have been

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used by "a number" of clubs. They also claim that big football

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names still working in the game have been named by alleged

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victims as abusers. Our sports news correspondent

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Richard Conway is here. The lawyer representing the trust

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that announced itself to the world yesterday, started by Andy Woodward

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and some of the other players who have been telling their stories of

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abuse over the past few weeks, he is concerned because he feels that

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people involved in abuse could still be working within football.

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We've had complaints which are relatively recent.

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We've had an awful lot of complaints which are historical.

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My overview was that it was probably worse in the old days,

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So there could still be people within football and other sports

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perhaps who are either complicit or actually engaging

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Yes, I would stress that we are not making any specific allegations

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What we're calling for is an independent investigation.

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Is it a series of complaints that is certainly enough to give

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a reasonable suspicion to justify a thorough and independent

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The other issue is the confidential at the agreements, Chelsea put one

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in place against a former player Tom and he is concerned about that, the

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FA have said any club trying to silence victims would be morally

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repugnant, but he is concerned that a number of clubs have got these

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agreements in place. Well, first of all, I have not acted

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in the Chelsea case so I can't I think it's commonly the case that

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confidentiality provisions are used in things like employment disputes,

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for example civil But when you've got something

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as fundamental and important as abuse of children,

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it seems entirely inappropriate for such clauses to be used

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when the priority should be on other And the cancer being cut out

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of the organisation. To be fair to Chelsea,

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I thought their statement And indeed they have had the wisdom

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to admits themselves that they believe the use

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of the clause was inappropriate. I've not seen the absolute proof

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of it at this stage, but certainly victims have come

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forward to us indicating that such How many clubs, from

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what you've been told? I can't be specific at this stage,

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but I know of several. Who have signed similar

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confidential...? Victims who've come forward who say

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that they have been the subject of But I want to stress that I'm

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not making any specific I can only tell you what victims

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have been told, yeah. But you wouldn't accept that,

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if you were working for a client who claims to have

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been sexually abused? You would never advise them

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to accept a gagging order like that? There are over 20 police forces

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looking into allegations and claims which have been made. We are talking

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about 55 clubs being involved at all levels, and over 350 survivors of

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child abuse reported their claims to the authorities. Those are figures

:17:20.:17:24.

that are days out. Days old. We are awaiting updates. We don't know the

:17:25.:17:30.

true scale of it. The FA published their terms of reference for their

:17:31.:17:34.

big review. Yes, this is an internal review which will look at what the

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FA knew and when. The terms of reference we have been waiting for.

:17:39.:17:42.

They have been published. They go into depth to consider what lessons

:17:43.:17:46.

wb learnt, what they knew at the time and they say they will review

:17:47.:17:52.

the 70s, the 80s and the 90s up to 2005 and the a QC, she was

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originally supposed to be leading this inquiry for them, but she has

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been replaced by the FA because they say there has been a widening of

:18:01.:18:04.

this investigation, but the FA say they want to look and consider any

:18:05.:18:07.

failings at the time and in particular, whether it failed to act

:18:08.:18:12.

appropriately and if anyone raised child sexual abuse to them, and what

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came to light at the time? That review will be on going now and the

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terms of reference could still change, they say, if they feel it

:18:21.:18:24.

necessary. Crucially, they say they are committed to full disclosure of

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the review's findings, not quite a we will publish, but it is near a

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publication than a few weeks ago? Greg Clarke told us a few weeks ago

:18:35.:18:38.

that he was concerned about protecting the anonymity and the

:18:39.:18:40.

rights of survivors of child abuse, but there is a commitment to get as

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much out as they can. Harry Redknapp criticised the FA. Yes, the former

:18:47.:18:51.

manager of Southampton. The BBC named Bob Higgins the former

:18:52.:18:56.

Southampton youth coach as someone, six players have come forward to

:18:57.:18:59.

make allegations against him. Harry Redknapp said he knew Bob Higgins

:19:00.:19:03.

and he was aware of rumours around him and didn't know of any

:19:04.:19:06.

wrongdoing because this was after Bob Higgins left the club, but he

:19:07.:19:10.

believes the FA could have done more to stop Bob Higgins working within

:19:11.:19:13.

the game despite warning letters being sent out by local authorities,

:19:14.:19:16.

but police and by the Football League.

:19:17.:19:29.

For a long time he was probably the leading

:19:30.:19:31.

youth development guy in the

:19:32.:19:38.

country when he worked at Southampton, he signed the likes

:19:39.:19:43.

of Shearer and the Wallace brothers and lots of outstanding England

:19:44.:19:45.

footballers, but then obviously the rumours

:19:46.:19:47.

were going on even at that

:19:48.:19:48.

time and then it was a programme I watched

:19:49.:19:50.

where one of the lads who

:19:51.:19:52.

played at Southampton, the fantastic young guy, he came out.

:19:53.:19:54.

This young guy had spoke about Bob Higgins and

:19:55.:19:56.

the type of stuff he was doing with kids at Southampton and I thought

:19:57.:20:00.

that would be the end of him, but then suddenly I see his name pop

:20:01.:20:03.

he has still been involved in football since that day, I thought

:20:04.:20:08.

that would have been the finish of him.

:20:09.:20:09.

Beyond that television programme, was there anything else you as

:20:10.:20:13.

someone operating in the region knew about him or did you hear rumours,

:20:14.:20:15.

but without much substance? There was always rumours going around

:20:16.:20:17.

about him, I think, certainly at that time and after that time, there

:20:18.:20:20.

was always talk. When people now say, I mean, and Southampton,

:20:21.:20:22.

obviously, he left there, they got rid of him, but to pop up in

:20:23.:20:29.

football, I heard people say, "I'm surprised." They must have seen that

:20:30.:20:33.

programme. Anyone associated with Southampton would have seen that

:20:34.:20:35.

programme and I thought that would have been the finish of him in

:20:36.:20:39.

football, but he has been working. Was there a letter in 1977 from

:20:40.:20:44.

police and social services saying, "That he posed a risk to children?

:20:45.:20:51.

If I got a letter as a manager of a football club and someone gave me a

:20:52.:20:55.

letter saying he was a risk to children, I certainly wouldn't

:20:56.:20:59.

behaving him anywhere near a football club or anything I would

:21:00.:21:01.

have been associated with, he wouldn't have been near it.

:21:02.:21:04.

Southampton is a great football club and it is run by fantastic people

:21:05.:21:09.

there now. They had a great manager. If he suspected anything, I'm sure

:21:10.:21:13.

he would have been the first one to have, he would have put his boot, he

:21:14.:21:20.

would have booted him out. There were strong characters there. If

:21:21.:21:25.

they had real suspicions I'm sure he would have been gone long before,

:21:26.:21:28.

but until you can prove something or there is a bit of evidence, it is

:21:29.:21:32.

difficult, I think the FA could have done a bit more to monitor him and

:21:33.:21:35.

make sure that he wasn't allowed back into football.

:21:36.:21:46.

The BBC attempted to put the allegations to Bob Higgins on

:21:47.:21:53.

numerous occasions, but we haven't had a response from him. For

:21:54.:21:58.

response from Southampton. A letter was sent in 1989 from the then

:21:59.:22:04.

secretary David Dent warning clubs about Bob Higgins saying that if he

:22:05.:22:07.

tried to get in contact with the clubs, he was at the time starting

:22:08.:22:10.

an academy, that they wanted to know. We don't know the nature of

:22:11.:22:14.

the risk that the Football League were aware of or what they were

:22:15.:22:17.

trying to say, the letter was certainly there and we know about

:22:18.:22:20.

future warnings too. Thank you very much, Richard Conway.

:22:21.:22:22.

He is our sports news correspondent. In 1991 Bob Higgins was charged

:22:23.:22:27.

with six counts of indecent assault against young boys

:22:28.:22:30.

he had been coaching. But he was acquitted

:22:31.:22:32.

on the direction of the judge when the prosecution

:22:33.:22:34.

offered no evidence. He later set up his own school

:22:35.:22:38.

of excellence, called The BBC has repeatedly tried to put

:22:39.:22:41.

those allegations of abuse to Bob Higgins but have not been

:22:42.:22:48.

able to reach him. We can speak now to Billy Seymour,

:22:49.:22:51.

a former Southampton youth player who went on to play for Coventry

:22:52.:22:53.

and Millwall, who says he was groomed and abused

:22:54.:22:56.

by Bob Higgins between the ages He's waived his right

:22:57.:22:59.

to anonymity to speak to us We are going to talk about sexual

:23:00.:23:10.

abuse. If you have got young children around you might not want

:23:11.:23:14.

them to listen in. Thank you very much, Billy. I want to ask you about

:23:15.:23:22.

first of all the claims from the lawyer representing the Off-side

:23:23.:23:24.

Trust who believes that senior figures still working in the game,

:23:25.:23:29.

who have been named as abusers, what do you think about that? Well,

:23:30.:23:41.

astonished really that this can be still happening, you know, I'm just

:23:42.:23:45.

astonished how this could be still going on really. What about claims

:23:46.:23:51.

that other clubs, aside from Chelsea, have paid money so that

:23:52.:23:56.

alleged victims keep quiet? That's, it is sickening really. As

:23:57.:24:05.

you can imagine this is all quite, it has had a snowball effect and I'm

:24:06.:24:09.

thinking about so many things at the minute because it is still pretty

:24:10.:24:13.

raw, I'm just trying to get my head around everything, but I'm sickened.

:24:14.:24:19.

I can't comprehend how they could be doing that.

:24:20.:24:23.

What about this letter that the Football League sent out in 1989, a

:24:24.:24:31.

warning to clubs, about Bob Higgins saying don't, you know, do not get

:24:32.:24:37.

yourselves involved with the Bob Higgins Soccer Academy. Why do you

:24:38.:24:41.

think that wasn't heeded? It is still the same things, the emotions

:24:42.:24:45.

are going around in my mind at the moment that how all these people in

:24:46.:24:50.

these, you know, people of authority, can be doing this and

:24:51.:24:55.

getting away with it really, brushing it under the carpet. I wond

:24:56.:25:01.

whaer it has been like for you for so many decades keeping what

:25:02.:25:04.

happened to you as a boy hidden? Yeah. My life has been chaos really.

:25:05.:25:12.

Over the last 20 years and it has sort of pops its ugly head up and I

:25:13.:25:19.

mean, the drink and the drugs that I've sort of self medicated, been to

:25:20.:25:27.

prison three times for my anger issues, not helping obviously by my

:25:28.:25:34.

drink and drug abuse. Yes, it has just been chaos for everyone

:25:35.:25:41.

involved with me, relationships, my family, sort of in disbelief of the

:25:42.:25:48.

demise of myself really. I've got a real supportive family and loving

:25:49.:25:55.

family, but I went off the rails. Is it clear to you that that is

:25:56.:25:58.

directly led to what you say happened to you as a boy? I think

:25:59.:26:03.

so, yeah. I don't want to make excuses and as I say the drink and

:26:04.:26:08.

drugs have just made it ten times worse, you know, because I've gone

:26:09.:26:15.

along my life and it has been chaos really. I'm just hoping now I can

:26:16.:26:20.

start opening up and start living really. In terms of what happened to

:26:21.:26:29.

you, you were 12 when this began... Yes. Can you tell our audience a

:26:30.:26:34.

little bit of what Bob Higgins did to you? It started really with

:26:35.:26:42.

grooming and preferential treatment, coming round and picking me up and

:26:43.:26:49.

taking me to scouting missions, gifts, tracksuits, after shave, he

:26:50.:26:55.

bought me the same aftershave as him, the journeys to the different

:26:56.:26:59.

centre of excellences around the country. He would make a point of

:27:00.:27:03.

coming to pick me up, it would be late at night. I would be coming

:27:04.:27:09.

back from Harlow and other places. He would put Whitney Houston The

:27:10.:27:16.

Greatest Love Of All and because I was tired because I had to be back

:27:17.:27:20.

for school, lay your head in my lap and he would be stroking my head and

:27:21.:27:28.

I would, that was just when I started things, that was odd to me.

:27:29.:27:34.

This was happening. And he would want me to in the school holidays,

:27:35.:27:38.

football clubs would want you to go and sort of train with them down, he

:27:39.:27:45.

used to live in Southampton, I was living in Reading, he would want me

:27:46.:27:51.

to stay over at his house. Started off really when the first time I was

:27:52.:27:57.

there, I was sat watching TV of an evening after training. There was

:27:58.:28:00.

two older lads staying there. They were from a different part of the

:28:01.:28:05.

country and they were just in shorts, casually and just watched

:28:06.:28:10.

the TV. I was sat on the floor in the armchair watching the TV and all

:28:11.:28:15.

of a sudden the Bob would have the two lads laying cuddling each other

:28:16.:28:20.

and I was just thinking what is going on? Knowing that these two

:28:21.:28:25.

lads would be going back the next day and I was there for four days

:28:26.:28:31.

and I just thought, "Oh my god, this is going to be me." Then when the

:28:32.:28:39.

lads would go their own ways the next day and over the course of the

:28:40.:28:45.

week he would come into the box room where I was staying and sit on the

:28:46.:28:52.

bed. He would walk in late at night and he would come and sit down on

:28:53.:28:56.

the bed stroking my hair and then he would tell me to move up and he

:28:57.:29:00.

would lay on top of the covers and his hands would be going under the

:29:01.:29:07.

covers and touching my groin area and I could see his dressing gown

:29:08.:29:14.

was open and I could see everything and he was touching himself

:29:15.:29:21.

basically. And then other occasions he would call me in in the morning,

:29:22.:29:27.

for some reason his Mrs Would never be around. He this a young boy as

:29:28.:29:31.

well, he would call me into his bedroom and ask me to get into bed

:29:32.:29:43.

and obviously naked. I could feel him behind me. Again touching my

:29:44.:29:50.

groin area. So, yeah, this happened on a number of occasions. On a trip,

:29:51.:29:59.

we went on a trip to Gothenburg. We had to go from Harwich, I stayed

:30:00.:30:03.

overnight, but luckily that was two other lads with me, and nothing

:30:04.:30:07.

happened that night, but there were two teams the A and the B team, the

:30:08.:30:12.

Southampton Youth and everyone was wondering what team you would be in,

:30:13.:30:17.

the older lads the A team obviously and I was summoned to his room, no

:30:18.:30:22.

one knew who was going to be in what squad, everyone was buzzing and he

:30:23.:30:27.

called me into his room and he said Billy, I know you're a couple of

:30:28.:30:31.

years younger, but you're going to be in my A Team with the older lads.

:30:32.:30:37.

You're a special player. I can do real good things for you at this

:30:38.:30:44.

club, the same thing, he just had a shower and he wanted me to sit on

:30:45.:30:51.

his lap. And he would, I was just in my tracksuit and he would be putting

:30:52.:30:55.

his hands down inside my tracksuit. Was there a time when you thought

:30:56.:31:02.

about telling your parents? I nearly did come out with it. On

:31:03.:31:22.

another occasion in his bedroom, I ran out and grabbed my clothes, my

:31:23.:31:28.

tracksuit, and I ran out bare-chested, no shoes on or

:31:29.:31:32.

anything. I remember the red phone box near his house, he said, where

:31:33.:31:39.

are you going? I did not have any money, because I had rushed out. I

:31:40.:31:47.

made a reverse phone call. To my mum and dad. I was crying will stop they

:31:48.:31:55.

said, what's the matter? I said, I am homesick, I just want to come

:31:56.:31:59.

back, I am not feeling good. That is the closest I got. When did you

:32:00.:32:09.

finally tell them what you say happened to you as a boy? I served

:32:10.:32:21.

quite a long prison sentence. Disbelief what was happening and

:32:22.:32:27.

they put it down to me being's drinking to excess and taking drugs.

:32:28.:32:32.

I started to come at them, because it was coming to a head, I was

:32:33.:32:39.

getting into some dangerous situations, so I needed to start

:32:40.:32:41.

off-loading, and that is when it began, in 2011. How did they react?

:32:42.:32:52.

They were in bits, I could tell. Bob used to ridicule my father. That

:32:53.:33:05.

hurt me mentally. In the end he would ridicule him, driving a wedge

:33:06.:33:13.

between me and him, and I was allowing myself to agree with him.

:33:14.:33:20.

Not just the physical stuff, it is the mental stuff, the psychological

:33:21.:33:27.

problems I have had. I have put my family through them as well, I have

:33:28.:33:35.

not given my daughter the emotional support that she needs. It has been

:33:36.:33:44.

horrific. Life has been chaos, and I hope now that I can let it all out

:33:45.:33:51.

and begin living, because I have been living in my own dangerous

:33:52.:33:59.

bubble. I wonder if you feel that as a result of what you say happened to

:34:00.:34:05.

you at that age you have effectively had a ghost of a life? Yes. My mum

:34:06.:34:13.

said that, you are just ghosting through life. Seeing Steve and the

:34:14.:34:20.

other lads come out, it has given me a bit of strength. I know it is a

:34:21.:34:28.

process, but I am ready to fight back now. I want to read some

:34:29.:34:34.

comments from people who are watching. Danny says, this is a

:34:35.:34:40.

really touching interview. Matthew says, incredibly brave, these former

:34:41.:34:44.

footballers to appear on your programme. A snowball effect of

:34:45.:34:49.

alleged abuse through life is shocking. You were a talented young

:34:50.:34:59.

player, you were in the Southampton youth setup, you were selected to go

:35:00.:35:04.

to Lilleshall. Did Bob begins try to stop you from going? Yes. He did not

:35:05.:35:11.

want me to go out all. He was on his knees. At the training ground, it

:35:12.:35:20.

was somewhere where the youth team trained, he was on his knees,

:35:21.:35:25.

crying. Please don't go, this is not good for you. You should stay with

:35:26.:35:34.

me,... Getting their was the start of me, I managed to get released.

:35:35.:35:40.

Once you sign associate schoolboy forms, you are tied to that club,

:35:41.:35:43.

because of the clubs sniff around for stop but going there, it was the

:35:44.:35:48.

best thing that ever happened to me, because my century. -- it was my

:35:49.:35:55.

sanctuary. There was the homesickness, but it was the best

:35:56.:36:02.

place, I felt safe. It so happened Steve was in the same intake. It is

:36:03.:36:09.

funny how things have turned out, we are drawing strength from each

:36:10.:36:18.

other. We go back. Do you think you can start to live now? I am hoping

:36:19.:36:27.

to. My family are so supportive. I feel I am in safe hands now. With

:36:28.:36:37.

the support of your family? Yes. Thank you for talking to us, I

:36:38.:36:41.

really appreciated. I can see how difficult it is for you.

:36:42.:36:46.

And, of course, we've tried to put the allegations to Bob Higgins

:36:47.:36:49.

In 1991 Bob Higgins was acquitted after he'd been charged with six

:36:50.:36:54.

counts of indecent assault against young boys

:36:55.:36:56.

In a statement yesterday Southampton Football Club

:36:57.:36:58.

said they're working with Hampshire Police to investigate

:36:59.:37:00.

any historical allegations that may be brought to light

:37:01.:37:02.

If you have been affected, you can find a list of helplines on our

:37:03.:37:16.

website. Still to come, free

:37:17.:37:18.

speech or extremism? One British Muslim activist

:37:19.:37:20.

is taking the Government to court over its counter-terrorism programme

:37:21.:37:22.

after his views on homosexuality And this is a spit hood -

:37:23.:37:25.

otherwise known as a spit guard - a mesh fabric hood which are legally

:37:26.:37:38.

used by police to protect them from potentially

:37:39.:37:42.

being spat at or bitten. A children's charity says the number

:37:43.:37:45.

of under 17s having it put on their heads in England has

:37:46.:37:49.

tripled in the last year. Annita is in the BBC Newsroom

:37:50.:37:52.

with a summary of the news. The FA has published the terms of

:37:53.:38:13.

reference for its review into allegations of sexual abuse within

:38:14.:38:17.

the game. It said it will fully disclose the review's findings of.

:38:18.:38:19.

Lawyers from the Offside Trust, launched yesterday to support

:38:20.:38:22.

football players who are victims of abuse, say they have

:38:23.:38:24.

evidence of more sex-abuse cover-ups in football.

:38:25.:38:26.

They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players

:38:27.:38:29.

And they say big football figures still in the game are named

:38:30.:38:34.

A study suggests that the regular use of Caesarean sections is having

:38:35.:38:42.

Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow

:38:43.:38:47.

pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth,

:38:48.:38:51.

are now surviving to pass on the genes of their skeletal

:38:52.:38:53.

The Government is to make Network Rail share control of track

:38:54.:38:59.

maintenance in England with the private train-operating

:39:00.:39:02.

companies, in what's being seen as the biggest shake-up of the rail

:39:03.:39:06.

The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling says that Network Rail

:39:07.:39:10.

and the train operators should be able to work together to resolve

:39:11.:39:14.

problems more effectively, but unions have warned that safety

:39:15.:39:16.

Lawyers representing the team leading the legal fight

:39:17.:39:27.

against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy will begin

:39:28.:39:29.

The landmark Supreme Court hearing begins hearing a second day

:39:30.:39:33.

Yesterday, Government lawyers said the ministers had the power

:39:34.:39:36.

The High Court ruled against the Government in November

:39:37.:39:39.

and said Parliament should be consulted first.

:39:40.:39:47.

You can get hourly updates on the BBC News channel all morning

:39:48.:39:50.

and full coverage live this afternoon of the arguments being put

:39:51.:39:53.

forward by lawyers for those who brought the case.

:39:54.:39:55.

You can also catch all of the proceedings live

:39:56.:39:58.

online, with rolling text updates and analysis.

:39:59.:40:07.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News, more at 10am.

:40:08.:40:12.

Thank you for your comments about what Billy Seymour has been

:40:13.:40:20.

describing. Jill says, the poor man reliving the abuse he suffered, he

:40:21.:40:25.

is very brave. Carmen says, I am so sorry this happened. Please tell him

:40:26.:40:29.

he is brave to expose what happened, it is not his fault. Karen, it must

:40:30.:40:34.

be so harrowing to recall the nightmare of what happened, Billy.

:40:35.:40:39.

This week, so brave speaking out, I identify as an abused child with all

:40:40.:40:46.

of those feelings. One person says, brave, a lovely man, I am so glad he

:40:47.:40:50.

realises it was not his fault, I hope people to this behind him, with

:40:51.:40:55.

justice done. If you want to get in touch, you are very welcome.

:40:56.:40:58.

The England coach says Alastair Cook is "up for the fight" and will lead

:40:59.:41:02.

Last month, Cook hinted that he may step down

:41:03.:41:06.

after the current tour of India, but Bayliss says he was surprised

:41:07.:41:09.

by that and the pair are already working

:41:10.:41:12.

Reports in America suggest that Thomas Bjorn will be named

:41:13.:41:18.

Europe have lifted the trophy on the three occasions that

:41:19.:41:23.

He's also been an assistant captain four times.

:41:24.:41:28.

Hull City remain in the Premier League's bottom

:41:29.:41:30.

three after they lost 1-0 at Middlesbrough last night.

:41:31.:41:32.

Gaston Ramirez scored the only goal of the game just

:41:33.:41:35.

And, Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales'

:41:36.:41:44.

Jones won gold in Rio this summer, becoming the first Welsh woman

:41:45.:41:50.

to successfully defend an Olympic title.

:41:51.:41:52.

She also won the European crown earlier in the year.

:41:53.:41:55.

It's the second time she's been given the honour.

:41:56.:42:02.

A key part of the Government's counter-terrorism strategy Prevent

:42:03.:42:07.

is facing a legal challenge for the first time in

:42:08.:42:09.

A British Muslim activist whose controversial views on homosexuality

:42:10.:42:14.

saw him named as a non-violent extremist by the Government.

:42:15.:42:18.

But Salman Butt says that breaches his right to free speech.

:42:19.:42:24.

Our reporter Divya Talwar has been exclusively speaking to him

:42:25.:42:26.

and finding out more about this landmark court challenge.

:42:27.:42:32.

Last year, Dr Salman Butt was named in a government press

:42:33.:43:01.

release about tackling extremism in universities.

:43:02.:43:03.

He was listed as one of six speakers who gave talks on campuses

:43:04.:43:07.

and were known to have views which violate British values -

:43:08.:43:10.

democracy, free speech, equality and the rule of law.

:43:11.:43:15.

That's the Government's own definition of a

:43:16.:43:17.

At first, I thought there must be some other Dr Salman Butt.

:43:18.:43:25.

As the day went on, different newspapers

:43:26.:43:28.

started running the story, one of them had my picture.

:43:29.:43:34.

So, I thought, this is serious, this must be me then.

:43:35.:43:39.

A few weeks later, a Parliamentary question to the Home Office revealed

:43:40.:43:42.

The Home Office said, Dr Salman Butt, who is a chief

:43:43.:43:47.

editor of the web discussion forum Islam In The 21st Century,

:43:48.:43:51.

had used the site to host material violating British values

:43:52.:43:54.

and that he had himself expressed views on the site in social media.

:43:55.:43:59.

Things like appearing to compare homosexuality to paedophilia,

:44:00.:44:03.

He was also accused of speaking alongside the campaign group Cage,

:44:04.:44:09.

and supporting its views on Jihadi John, who the group

:44:10.:44:11.

described as once a kind, beautiful young man.

:44:12.:44:17.

They mentioned a few different accusations.

:44:18.:44:18.

All of them were false except for one, which was,

:44:19.:44:21.

this person shared a platform with Cage one time, a few years ago.

:44:22.:44:25.

Which I don't think is any sign of extremism

:44:26.:44:30.

They said, "He appears to compare homosexuality to paedophilia

:44:31.:44:45.

"He appears to support FGM," or something ridiculous,

:44:46.:44:48.

They just used those links, a few articles I had

:44:49.:44:53.

written for Islam 21C, apparently not having read them.

:44:54.:44:58.

Because I don't see how anyone who read them could have come

:44:59.:45:01.

It's something forbidden, you know, to harm someone,

:45:02.:45:09.

What are your views on homosexuality?

:45:10.:45:18.

Marriage is between a man and a woman.

:45:19.:45:20.

So those things which people engage in, those actions people do

:45:21.:45:25.

which are against some people's religious views, whilst

:45:26.:45:30.

they have the right legally to do those things, we still have a right

:45:31.:45:38.

to at least teach our children and our communities that XYZ is a sin.

:45:39.:45:41.

So you believe that homosexuality is a sin?

:45:42.:45:45.

Can you see how vocalising that could potentially

:45:46.:45:48.

encourage or inspire others to hatred or violence?

:45:49.:45:54.

I mean, anything anyone can say could be used by somebody

:45:55.:45:57.

But I think it would be deeply fallacious to blame the person

:45:58.:46:02.

actually making the view in the first.

:46:03.:46:05.

My view is, if somebody wants to go down that line of argument,

:46:06.:46:09.

then apply it across all faiths and races and ethnicities.

:46:10.:46:16.

So if being against, for example, campaigning against same-sex

:46:17.:46:18.

marriage is some kind of sign of extremism or being un-British,

:46:19.:46:20.

the first people this applies to would be half the people

:46:21.:46:26.

in parliament who voted against, half the Tory party,

:46:27.:46:37.

who voted against the Same-sex Marriage Bill, for example.

:46:38.:46:42.

Dr Salman Butt was a regular speaker at universities,

:46:43.:46:44.

although he says he hasn't had any invitations since he was named

:46:45.:46:47.

a nonviolent extremist by the government.

:46:48.:46:48.

He wants to know why, so he's taking the Home Secretary

:46:49.:46:51.

He is also challenging the Government's controversial Prevent

:46:52.:46:54.

strand of the counterterrorism strategy for the first time.

:46:55.:46:58.

It aims to stop people becoming or supporting terrorists,

:46:59.:47:01.

but Doctor Butt's lawyers argue the Prevent duty is unlawful.

:47:02.:47:05.

Specifically how it has to be implemented in universities.

:47:06.:47:09.

Since last September, UK schools and universities

:47:10.:47:16.

have a new legal duty to engage with the Prevent strategy

:47:17.:47:18.

and try and stop people being drawn into terrorism.

:47:19.:47:20.

The National Union of Students says it creates suspicion

:47:21.:47:24.

London's Brunel University is one of dozens against it.

:47:25.:47:30.

The student union has completely boycotted the Prevent strategy.

:47:31.:47:34.

It refuses to engage with it, and in fact, protests and campaigns

:47:35.:47:37.

There is a real sense of fear and suspicion.

:47:38.:47:49.

And sort of questioning of where the academic freedoms come in,

:47:50.:47:51.

So on campuses, we've got people self-censoring in classrooms.

:47:52.:47:56.

We've got students worried about what websites they can go

:47:57.:47:58.

on, students worried about what they can study.

:47:59.:48:00.

Cutting things out of their dissertations,

:48:01.:48:02.

It's really curtailing the freedom of someone who wants to come

:48:03.:48:08.

There have been occasions where I have been afraid

:48:09.:48:16.

to put my head above the parapet and, sort of, give my opinion

:48:17.:48:19.

on certain things at the risk of being treated as an outcast.

:48:20.:48:22.

Treated as someone that may be suspected of being

:48:23.:48:24.

I mean, when I've been searching for certain things,

:48:25.:48:31.

my friends have been saying to me, be careful, be incognito,

:48:32.:48:35.

because if the university monitor what you're doing,

:48:36.:48:38.

that puts you in a very sort of precarious and vulnerable

:48:39.:48:43.

position where your freedoms may be curtailed.

:48:44.:48:49.

Do you think there's a sense of paranoia

:48:50.:48:53.

I don't think there is a paranoia or oversensitivity,

:48:54.:49:01.

because I personally know of people who have been referred to Prevent

:49:02.:49:04.

over a simple aspect of their own debate,

:49:05.:49:06.

And this was organised by their sixth form debating society.

:49:07.:49:18.

Because they have their own religious beliefs,

:49:19.:49:20.

which I personally believe I share similar practices of Islam to them.

:49:21.:49:23.

For them to be referred to the Prevent officer and get

:49:24.:49:25.

searched, the whole house, his computer, his phones,

:49:26.:49:27.

everything, I don't think there's oversensitivity.

:49:28.:49:33.

I should be cautious, because this happened to my friend.

:49:34.:49:35.

The students I met at Brunel were all familiar with this man's

:49:36.:49:43.

story and used it as an example of why they were on edge

:49:44.:49:46.

Until last year, he was studying a Masters at Staffordshire

:49:47.:49:52.

He was reading this book on terrorism studies

:49:53.:49:58.

in the campus library, part of the course reading list,

:49:59.:50:01.

when he was questioned by a member of staff.

:50:02.:50:03.

Do you think that the three girls who left Bethnal Green

:50:04.:50:13.

in order to join Isis, what do you think of them?

:50:14.:50:16.

The questions became progressively intrusive.

:50:17.:50:17.

I was reading this very page in the book...

:50:18.:50:21.

The staff member was concerned after the conversation and,

:50:22.:50:23.

under the Prevent duty, wanted to flag it up.

:50:24.:50:26.

Security on campus were asked for Mohammed's details.

:50:27.:50:29.

Once he found out what was going on, he launched his own complaint

:50:30.:50:32.

against the university and hired a lawyer.

:50:33.:50:38.

Do you think there was anything that you said that gave the member

:50:39.:50:41.

of staff reason for concern and, rightly so, she then went

:50:42.:50:44.

There was no, "I think, I believe..."

:50:45.:50:47.

It was purely "So and so said" or "It's been said and

:50:48.:50:50.

I followed the academic code to the exact level.

:50:51.:50:53.

But unfortunately that did me no favours.

:50:54.:50:57.

Mohammed's studies were put on hold while the university

:50:58.:50:59.

They apologised but he's decided not to go back.

:51:00.:51:06.

The concerns on the impact of free speech in universities

:51:07.:51:08.

because of the Prevent duty is one of the key things Dr Salman Butt's

:51:09.:51:11.

One of the arguments is that the Prevent

:51:12.:51:18.

It's too broad in the way it defines extremism.

:51:19.:51:23.

And that it's open to subjective interpretation

:51:24.:51:25.

And that it conflicts with the legal duty on universities

:51:26.:51:32.

So there's a direct conflict between the Prevent strategy

:51:33.:51:45.

and the Education Act, which requires universities

:51:46.:51:47.

The Prevent strategy is controversial.

:51:48.:51:50.

There is support for it, though, even among British Muslims.

:51:51.:51:55.

So many will be waiting to see the outcome of this legal challenge.

:51:56.:51:58.

The Home Office said it would be inappropriate to comment

:51:59.:52:00.

What happens if you lose this legal challenge and the courts say, well,

:52:01.:52:08.

actually you are an extremist, a nonviolent extremist?

:52:09.:52:10.

If, at the end of this, somebody like me turns out to be

:52:11.:52:15.

legally defined as an extremist, then what I would campaign

:52:16.:52:17.

for is everyone who holds the same views as myself to likewise be

:52:18.:52:20.

labelled as such, to show how absurd this is.

:52:21.:52:28.

We asked the Home Office for a response.

:52:29.:52:30.

They said it would not be appropriate to comment until legal

:52:31.:52:33.

I have got one comment I want to read on that actually.

:52:34.:52:45.

It is from Gary who says, "I attended Prevent training at work

:52:46.:52:49.

and I found it very useful. It changed my view on what extremists

:52:50.:52:54.

behaviour is. People think this strategy is anti-Islamic. It is not.

:52:55.:53:01.

The training package I went to was about right-wingism and football

:53:02.:53:02.

hooliganism." It's been claimed that up to 40

:53:03.:53:07.

Conservative MPs could vote against the Prime Minister Theresa May

:53:08.:53:10.

in any Commons debate on whether or not the government

:53:11.:53:12.

should be forced to reveal its plans Let's talk to Norman. Explain what

:53:13.:53:19.

the Labour-led motion is calling for? The top line is Theresa May

:53:20.:53:25.

could be facing her first Commons defeat on Brexit. It would be her

:53:26.:53:31.

first defeat since she became Prime Minister. There is a sense of when

:53:32.:53:37.

the cat is away, the mice will play because Mrs May is in the Gulf. We

:53:38.:53:43.

have got pictures of her talking to British service personnel out in

:53:44.:53:47.

Bahrain, actually wishing them a merry Christmas. It looks sunny, and

:53:48.:53:51.

not a very Christmassy scene. However, when she is away, Labour

:53:52.:53:56.

have tabled a motion saying that she should publish a document setting

:53:57.:54:01.

out a Brexit plans, in other words, telling everyone what it is she is

:54:02.:54:05.

trying to do, not giving the nitty-gritty of her negotiating

:54:06.:54:09.

strategy, but the big picture, what she is going to do about the single

:54:10.:54:14.

market and what she is going to do about freedom of movement, there

:54:15.:54:18.

could be 20 and maybe up to 40, it is claimed, Tory MPs, who might

:54:19.:54:23.

support Labour. Now, if that happened, Mrs May, tomorrow would be

:54:24.:54:27.

heading as I say for her first Commons defeat and what's added a

:54:28.:54:34.

little twist to it, there are signs even some Brexiteers might want Mrs

:54:35.:54:40.

May want to publish her plans. They have been getting edgy because she

:54:41.:54:44.

has been suggesting we might keep paying in to make sure we stay in

:54:45.:54:52.

the single market. Listen to Philip Hammond.

:54:53.:54:55.

What we've said is we want to keep as many options open as possible

:54:56.:54:58.

so we go into these negotiation with as much flexibility

:54:59.:55:00.

as possible recognising that they will be complex,

:55:01.:55:02.

they will be lengthy and we want to be able to negotiate

:55:03.:55:05.

in good faith with our European partners to see if we can find a way

:55:06.:55:09.

of working together in the future that benefits both sides.

:55:10.:55:16.

So, will Mrs May come up with some sort of compromise to get round this

:55:17.:55:23.

possible defeat? Will there be some sort of plan published? I think not

:55:24.:55:28.

because she made very clear that if she does that, she fears she might

:55:29.:55:32.

show her negotiating hand to other EU leaders. More than that, she made

:55:33.:55:36.

it almost part of her leadership that she is not going to be pushed

:55:37.:55:42.

around by Parliament or the media or judges when it comes to Brexit. Her

:55:43.:55:47.

view is the people have spoken, she will deliver, but what that means is

:55:48.:55:52.

she could, as I say, be facing her first defeat tomorrow and it would

:55:53.:55:56.

be not just embarrassing because it is about Brexit, it would also

:55:57.:55:59.

underline the tensions in her own party and it would be personal as I

:56:00.:56:05.

say, because she made such a thing of not giving ground to anyone else

:56:06.:56:09.

when it comes to Brexit. Cheers Norman, thank you.

:56:10.:56:22.

It is Supreme Court

:56:23.:56:25.

It is day two of the Supreme Court hearing.

:56:26.:56:32.

James Corden has had everyone from Beyonce,

:56:33.:56:34.

Adele and One director to the first lady Michelle Obama in his car,

:56:35.:56:37.

but now it's time for the best selling female artist of all time.

:56:38.:56:46.

Thank you so much for showing me around the city. I don't know New

:56:47.:56:54.

York that well. Do you mind if we listen to some

:56:55.:57:00.

music? Would that be OK? Snide don't like riding around in a car unless

:57:01.:57:02.

there is music. What was a night out with Michael

:57:03.:57:21.

Jackson or a night in? So you want me to kiss and tell? Did you kiss?

:57:22.:57:32.

We will bring you more when it goes live.

:57:33.:57:37.

Let's get the latest weather update with Carol.

:57:38.:57:42.

This morning it was cold at 5am, there was a 20 Celsius temperature

:57:43.:57:47.

difference between the north and south of the country. We had frost

:57:48.:57:51.

and minus nine Celsius in Aviemore and we had cloud and we had a

:57:52.:57:55.

temperature of 11 Celsius in Plymouth. Now, the fog that we've

:57:56.:58:00.

had is still very much with us, particularly across England,

:58:01.:58:02.

particularly around Gloucestershire for example, the Midlands, into East

:58:03.:58:06.

Anglia, Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Some of that is still dense, but

:58:07.:58:10.

slowly today, it will lift up into low cloud. You can see from the

:58:11.:58:14.

spacing on the isobars, there is not much wind to clear it away. We have

:58:15.:58:17.

got a set of weather fronts coming in from the west. They are

:58:18.:58:20.

introducing rain and strengthening winds and the rain has been pushing

:58:21.:58:24.

across Northern Ireland and in through parts of Western Scotland.

:58:25.:58:28.

But for the rest of the UK, it is mostly dry. So as we go through the

:58:29.:58:33.

morning, the wind will strengthen in the west, the rain will continue to

:58:34.:58:37.

advance and the fog will lift into low cloud. There will be some breaks

:58:38.:58:41.

the we have got frost around where temperatures are low and that's

:58:42.:58:44.

where we are looking at sunny spells. But even in the sunshine, it

:58:45.:58:48.

will feel cold. So here is the rain this afternoon across Northern

:58:49.:58:52.

Ireland, it will be windy as well. The rain continuing across northern

:58:53.:58:55.

and Western Scotland accompanied by the wind. Some brighter skies across

:58:56.:58:59.

north-east Scotland, but look at the temperature in abdaornings only six

:59:00.:59:05.

SS. Four Celsius in Edinburgh, five in Glasgow. As we push south across

:59:06.:59:10.

England, there will be a lot of cloud. There will be one or two

:59:11.:59:14.

sunnier breaks. Wherever you are, it will feel cold. Come into the south

:59:15.:59:21.

and the south-west, here temperatures are already 11 Celsius.

:59:22.:59:25.

It is a similar story for Wales. Cloudy afternoon. Temperatures up to

:59:26.:59:30.

11 Celsius. As we go through the day and the rain advances eastwards, the

:59:31.:59:33.

temperatures will rise and they will rise by night as well. So a wet

:59:34.:59:40.

night across Scotland and for a time Northern Ireland. We are looking at

:59:41.:59:43.

a high today of five Celsius in Glasgow and tonight it will be 12

:59:44.:59:47.

Celsius. We have got more fog reforming across the South East. We

:59:48.:59:50.

don't expect it to be as widespread or as dense as the fog we saw this

:59:51.:59:54.

morning. Tomorrow, it will be frost-free across the UK. The first

:59:55.:59:58.

time we have seen seen that since 15th November. Our weather front

:59:59.:00:03.

will push to push across western parts of Wales and the south-west.

:00:04.:00:07.

But equally there will be sunshine. Temperatures could hit 16 Celsius

:00:08.:00:12.

around the Moray Firth and north-east England and north-east

:00:13.:00:12.

Wales. Hello, it's Tuesday, just

:00:13.:00:18.

after 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. This morning, more damning

:00:19.:00:20.

allegations over abuse in football, including claims of more cover-ups

:00:21.:00:22.

and that people still involved in the game have

:00:23.:00:24.

been involved in abuse. It was probably worse in the old

:00:25.:00:34.

days, but the problems still persist. There could still be people

:00:35.:00:39.

within football and other sports who were either complicit or were

:00:40.:00:41.

engaging in this activity? Yes. We heard from a former Southampton

:00:42.:00:50.

youth player who said he was abused by his former coach for two years as

:00:51.:00:53.

a boy. It has been horrific. Life has been

:00:54.:01:00.

chaos, and I am hoping now that I can let it all out and begin living,

:01:01.:01:07.

because I have just been living in my own dangerous bubble.

:01:08.:01:12.

You can watch the full interview again on our programme page.

:01:13.:01:18.

Later, we will speak to family members about the impact the

:01:19.:01:19.

revelations have had on them. A children's charity says

:01:20.:01:23.

spit hoods, otherwise known as spit guards,

:01:24.:01:25.

are being increasingly used They say the numbers in England have

:01:26.:01:27.

tripled over the last year. We will hear from charity and from

:01:28.:01:38.

the police, who say such guards are vital.

:01:39.:01:39.

Could the routine use of caesarean section be having

:01:40.:01:41.

Scientists claim the surgery is enabling women with a narrow

:01:42.:01:45.

pelvic opening to survive childbirth and pass their genes

:01:46.:01:47.

Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:01:48.:02:02.

In the last hour, the Football Association has

:02:03.:02:04.

published the terms of reference for its review into allegations

:02:05.:02:07.

of sexual abuse within the game, and said it will fully disclose

:02:08.:02:09.

Meanwhile, lawyers from the Offside Trust,

:02:10.:02:12.

launched yesterday to support football players who are victims

:02:13.:02:14.

of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse

:02:15.:02:18.

They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players

:02:19.:02:26.

And they say big football figures still in the game are named

:02:27.:02:30.

Our correspondent gave Victoria and update.

:02:31.:02:43.

The scale is clear, there are over 20 police force is looking into

:02:44.:02:49.

allegations that have been made, 55 clubs are involved, at all levels,

:02:50.:02:56.

from very senior through to non-league. Over 350 survivors have

:02:57.:03:00.

reported their claims to the authorities over the past week. But

:03:01.:03:05.

those of figures that are days old, we are waiting for updates, people

:03:06.:03:09.

are still finding the courage to come forward and tell their stories.

:03:10.:03:11.

A study suggests that the regular use of caesarean sections is having

:03:12.:03:14.

Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow

:03:15.:03:19.

pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth,

:03:20.:03:22.

are now surviving, to pass on the genes of their skeletal

:03:23.:03:24.

A key part of the Government's counterterrorism strategy Prevent is

:03:25.:03:41.

challenged in the High Court. The Home Office says it plays a key

:03:42.:03:47.

role, but a British Muslim activist named as a non-violent extremists

:03:48.:03:49.

will argue that the strategy breaches his right to free speech.

:03:50.:03:56.

Some of the world's biggest tech companies are teaming up to prevent

:03:57.:03:58.

extremist material being shared online. They will share details of

:03:59.:04:04.

images and videos they remove from their sites to stop the material

:04:05.:04:10.

cropping up elsewhere. Lawyers representing the team

:04:11.:04:15.

leading the legal fight against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy

:04:16.:04:19.

begin making their case later. The hearing begins hearing a second day

:04:20.:04:24.

of evidence this morning. Yesterday Government lawyers said ministers

:04:25.:04:27.

had the power to trigger article 50. The High Court ruled against the

:04:28.:04:30.

Government in November and said Parliament should be consulted

:04:31.:04:32.

first. You can get hourly updates on the

:04:33.:04:37.

BBC News Channel all morning and full coverage live from inside the

:04:38.:04:40.

Supreme Court this afternoon of the arguments being put forward by

:04:41.:04:44.

lawyers for those who brought the case. You can catch the proceedings

:04:45.:04:48.

live online with rolling text updates and analysis.

:04:49.:04:57.

Nigel Farage has been short listed by Time magazine for its Person of

:04:58.:05:02.

the year award. The magazine says his role in helping bring about

:05:03.:05:06.

Brexit started a global populist wave against the political

:05:07.:05:10.

establishment. Others on the short list of people deemed to have most

:05:11.:05:14.

influenced the news include Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Turkey's

:05:15.:05:17.

president began and Beyonce. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:05:18.:05:22.

News, more at 10:30am. Thank you for your comments about

:05:23.:05:31.

Billy Seymour, on the programme earlier, he played for Coventry and

:05:32.:05:35.

Millwall, he was talking about the abuse he experienced as a young boy

:05:36.:05:40.

between the ages of 12 and 14. Steve Walters, who we spoke to, sweet, so

:05:41.:05:49.

proud of you, we will catch up soon. Terry says, the interview with Billy

:05:50.:05:53.

Seymour reduced me to tears and triggered memories and the enduring

:05:54.:05:59.

pain and shame. One person says, very painful to watch, but a serious

:06:00.:06:04.

eye opener. Ian says, a tough but compelling watch. A courageous man,

:06:05.:06:12.

courageous men, all of them. Victor says, easier to understand the

:06:13.:06:17.

horrific effects of sexual abuse. Angela says, heartbreaking, watching

:06:18.:06:23.

the interviews, mentally and physically destroying these young

:06:24.:06:26.

boys is awful beyond words. One more for now, the interview today shows

:06:27.:06:32.

the long-term impact of sexual abuse so clearly. Thank you for those.

:06:33.:06:36.

Do get in touch with us throughout the morning.

:06:37.:06:38.

If you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

:06:39.:06:42.

Alastair Cook had suggested the series in India could be his last as

:06:43.:06:52.

captain. The England coach says Alastair Cook

:06:53.:06:53.

is "up for the fight" and will lead Last month, Cook hinted

:06:54.:06:56.

that he may step down after the current tour of India,

:06:57.:07:00.

but Bayliss says he was surprised by that and the pair

:07:01.:07:03.

are already working Sometimes little comments are made

:07:04.:07:14.

and they get blown out of proportion. He is up for the fight.

:07:15.:07:21.

Like everybody else, he is disappointed with the results over

:07:22.:07:26.

here. In the end, national players want to win, they are professional

:07:27.:07:30.

players. A bit of disappointment there. But we are heading in the

:07:31.:07:37.

right direction. Reports in America suggest that

:07:38.:07:38.

Thomas Bjorn is to be named the European Ryder Cup

:07:39.:07:41.

captain for 2018. Europe won the cup in all three

:07:42.:07:43.

contests where Bjorn He's also been an assistant

:07:44.:07:45.

captain four times. Hull City remain in

:07:46.:07:53.

the Premier League's bottom three after they lost 1-0

:07:54.:07:55.

at Middlesbrough last night. Gaston Ramirez scored the only

:07:56.:07:58.

goal of the game just Manchester City and Chelsea

:07:59.:08:00.

have been charged by the Football Association for failing

:08:01.:08:10.

to control their players during There was a mass brawl at the end

:08:11.:08:13.

of the match at the Etihad, Sergio Aguero has already

:08:14.:08:18.

been banned for four matches for his part in it,

:08:19.:08:22.

although he's available Brazilian club Chapecoense have been

:08:23.:08:25.

awarded the Copa Sudamericana, following the plane crash that

:08:26.:08:33.

killed 19 of their players. They were on their way

:08:34.:08:39.

to the first leg of the final against Atletico Nacional

:08:40.:08:42.

when their plane went down. Nacional asked for Chapecoense

:08:43.:08:44.

to be given the title, and they've received a fair-play

:08:45.:08:48.

award to acknowledge the gesture. Olympic taekwondo champion

:08:49.:08:56.

Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales' Jones won gold in Rio this summer,

:08:57.:08:59.

becoming the first Welsh woman to successfully defend

:09:00.:09:04.

an Olympic title. She also won the European crown

:09:05.:09:07.

earlier in the year. It's the second time she's

:09:08.:09:11.

been given the honour. And, remember England going out

:09:12.:09:15.

to Iceland at the Euros? It seemed everyone

:09:16.:09:19.

was talking about it. It was the most tweeted-about

:09:20.:09:21.

sporting moment on 128,000 tweets per minute,

:09:22.:09:25.

21,000 more than when Embarrassment for England gets

:09:26.:09:35.

people talking. You wondered why he had

:09:36.:09:53.

these problems, and now "He couldn't even

:09:54.:09:59.

look me in the eye. The words of family members of some

:10:00.:10:02.

of the footballers we've spoken to on this programme over

:10:03.:10:08.

the last few weeks. The impact of years of abuse

:10:09.:10:11.

on those young footballers has been evident in many of the interviews

:10:12.:10:15.

you've seen on the programme But how does that abuse

:10:16.:10:17.

affect family members, mothers, partners, siblings,

:10:18.:10:21.

who also live with the legacy? Billy Seymour says he was abused

:10:22.:10:27.

by his coach at Southampton. He told us in the last hour how

:10:28.:10:31.

it had affected them. I served quite a long prison

:10:32.:10:49.

sentence. Disbelief at what was happening, they put it down to be

:10:50.:10:53.

being... Drinking to excess and taking drugs. I started to come at

:10:54.:11:01.

them, because it was coming to a head, I was getting into some

:11:02.:11:06.

dangerous situations, so I needed to start off-loading. That is when it

:11:07.:11:07.

began, in 2011. How did they react? They were in bits. I could tell. Bob

:11:08.:11:26.

used to ridicule my father, that hurt me mentally. In the end, he

:11:27.:11:33.

would ridicule him, driving a wedge between me and my father. In a way,

:11:34.:11:39.

the mental stuff, I was allowing myself to agree with him. It is not

:11:40.:11:46.

just the physical stuff, it is the mental stuff, the psychological

:11:47.:11:52.

problems I have had. I have put my family through them as well. My

:11:53.:12:01.

daughter, I have not given her the emotional support that she needs. It

:12:02.:12:08.

has been horrific. Life has been chaos, and I am hoping now that I

:12:09.:12:15.

can let it all out and begin living, because I have been living in my own

:12:16.:12:17.

bubble, dangerous bubble. This morning we can speak to two

:12:18.:12:20.

relatives who're talking for the first time about the impact

:12:21.:12:22.

it's had on them. Matt Monaghan was signed

:12:23.:12:25.

to Manchester United under Alex Ferguson,

:12:26.:12:26.

but years earlier he says he was abused whilst at another

:12:27.:12:29.

club, which we're not naming And you may remember we spoke

:12:30.:12:32.

to David Eatock last week. He says he was groomed

:12:33.:12:40.

by George Ormond whilst His twin brother

:12:41.:12:44.

Paul is with us now. David, I introduce you to Denise,

:12:45.:13:11.

and Denise to David. What did you think about what David told you?

:13:12.:13:24.

Shock. He told me loosely, but I discovered the extent of the abuse,

:13:25.:13:26.

which was difficult reading, last week. And being on your show. He

:13:27.:13:34.

told you just that their details a couple of years ago? Yes, very

:13:35.:13:40.

loosely. He was more open to his wife, who has been very supportive.

:13:41.:13:48.

I had found out the majority of the abuse in further detail from your

:13:49.:13:57.

show. How far would you into your relationship with Matthew when he

:13:58.:14:00.

decided to tell you? It was about six months in. How did it come out?

:14:01.:14:10.

He woke me up in the middle of the night. He was heartbroken. He said,

:14:11.:14:17.

I have got something to tell you. He said, when you get up in the morning

:14:18.:14:21.

comedy will not see me again. He could not look me in the eye. He was

:14:22.:14:26.

really upset, he told me what had happened. Not in great detail, but

:14:27.:14:33.

he said, this is why I act the way I do. He was broken. I wonder what

:14:34.:14:43.

prompted him then. He should have been coming to mind in November for

:14:44.:14:48.

a bonfire night, and he could not turn up, I could not get hold of him

:14:49.:14:53.

for three or four nights, and when I did, I said, I cannot deal with

:14:54.:14:59.

this, I am not cut out with this. He was like, I will bring you tomorrow.

:15:00.:15:06.

He went to speak to his mum, she said, you are going to have to tell

:15:07.:15:11.

her. She does not realise why you are acting in this way. That is why

:15:12.:15:17.

he stays in the pub sometimes and he does a lot of betting.

:15:18.:15:23.

I wonder if there were behaviours of Dave's over the years which were

:15:24.:15:28.

different to the way you behaved? Yes, definitely. When Dave was

:15:29.:15:36.

released from Newcastle by Kenny Dalglish in 1998, subsequently the

:15:37.:15:39.

last 28 years of his life, he was a shell of the person what I knew when

:15:40.:15:48.

he went there suffering from agoraphobia, depression, OCD, it is

:15:49.:15:53.

easier to accept the way he has behaved now that everything has come

:15:54.:15:57.

to light and we can understand off other people's experiences that he

:15:58.:16:01.

is not on his own and there is a lot of people out there who has gone

:16:02.:16:06.

through a similar kind of abuse and the subsequent emotions. So things,

:16:07.:16:11.

things sort of make more sense now that you know? Yeah, definitely.

:16:12.:16:17.

Definitely. Denise, you're nodding in agreement. Does that ring a bell

:16:18.:16:22.

with you? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You know now why Matthew behaves the

:16:23.:16:27.

way he does sometimes. You've got more time for it really. What is the

:16:28.:16:33.

impact on you then, Denise as his partner? Well, some days he doesn't

:16:34.:16:40.

want to get out of bed. Some days he just wants to go to the pub and

:16:41.:16:45.

forget about everybody. It is really hard. It is hard watching him, you

:16:46.:16:49.

know, the way he is, it is a shame because he just can't get on with

:16:50.:16:55.

his life and you know he also says, "I feel really sorry for you. You

:16:56.:16:59.

shouldn't be going through this. You suffer too." He has bad days and I

:17:00.:17:03.

have bad days over it, but it is just being there for support with

:17:04.:17:06.

him and that's all you can do really.

:17:07.:17:10.

And what about you Paul, the impact on you and the wider family? They

:17:11.:17:17.

have missed some family events. Daughter's birthdays and things like

:17:18.:17:20.

that where he has not been able to either leave the house or feel

:17:21.:17:24.

comfortable enough to attend such events. I think now that this has

:17:25.:17:30.

come out, we can obviously, like Denise said, you're there for them

:17:31.:17:34.

anyway and you can show support, now you can actually show the full

:17:35.:17:37.

support because you can appreciate exactly what he has been through

:17:38.:17:42.

which is, it is pretty horrific. You don't intend to see your brother

:17:43.:17:47.

achieve his life long ambition of being a professional at Newcastle

:17:48.:17:54.

United and three years of subsequent abuse and returning him back to our

:17:55.:17:58.

family a shell of the person he went as. When you think about the future,

:17:59.:18:05.

Denise, you and Matthew in your relationship together and you've got

:18:06.:18:08.

children from previous relationships, how do you view it?

:18:09.:18:13.

Yeah, all the children live with us and it is difficult for them too.

:18:14.:18:19.

Matthew has off days and you know, he doesn't turn up to things like

:18:20.:18:23.

some funerals he hasn't turned up to. Restaurants where he just has to

:18:24.:18:32.

get up and go and sit on the pavement outside. Yes, so it affects

:18:33.:18:38.

all of us and you know the children, you've only just found out since it

:18:39.:18:42.

come to light last week really with the children. So they have been very

:18:43.:18:50.

supportive. How proud are you Paul, of your brother? Yes, extremely

:18:51.:18:58.

proud. Not just of David, Andy Woodward, set off the trend if you

:18:59.:19:02.

like, he was unbelievable, watching that. I played in the same team as

:19:03.:19:07.

David with Andy Woodward so when it's something you can connect with

:19:08.:19:10.

and another individual who you know, you know, it gives you the strength

:19:11.:19:14.

and the courage to come forward and the truth is we've, we were living

:19:15.:19:21.

the after marks of this, we're the victims, but we should be walking

:19:22.:19:29.

around with our heads held high and you know the abusers should be the

:19:30.:19:34.

ones who is hiding away and not having the courage to come out.

:19:35.:19:39.

Denise, how proud are you of Matthew? Oh, really proud. Really

:19:40.:19:43.

proud, yeah and the kids are too. You know, as they say, there is no

:19:44.:19:47.

shame in it. Hold your head up high and you know this is, I think, this

:19:48.:19:52.

is Matthew's therapy now and you know, so you can deal with it a lot

:19:53.:19:57.

more. He held this, you know, on his shoulders for many, many years on

:19:58.:20:01.

his own now. Well, he has got all his family and his friends behind

:20:02.:20:04.

him so this is the way forward for Matthew now. An e-mail from Elaine

:20:05.:20:09.

saying, "It is good to hear the views of the families of the victims

:20:10.:20:16.

of abuse. Both my children were abused in the 80s, but no one ever

:20:17.:20:21.

considers how the parents feel. Thank you for talking about this

:20:22.:20:26.

because we all suffer." Yes. Would you echo that Denise? Definitely.

:20:27.:20:31.

You send your children to, you know, football clubs and you know dance

:20:32.:20:36.

classes and you expect them to be safe and you know, you can beat

:20:37.:20:41.

yourself up over it, but we weren't to know, you know, that monster was

:20:42.:20:46.

out there. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Denise,

:20:47.:20:55.

thank you. Denise and Paul, I called you David, sorry. You'll forgive me,

:20:56.:21:05.

won't you? Yeah. News from the QPR website and it is regarding

:21:06.:21:11.

historical algags of sexual abuse. QPR have been made aware of the

:21:12.:21:15.

historical allegations made against a former club employee relate to go

:21:16.:21:19.

child abuse in football. The club takes the allegation seriously and

:21:20.:21:22.

will co-operate fully in any forthcoming investigation. Any form

:21:23.:21:26.

of abuse has no place in football or society. QPR go on, "QPR has robust

:21:27.:21:39.

recruitment procedures. We employ a full-time designated safeguarding

:21:40.:21:42.

manager who works across all areas of the club. In line with the FA,

:21:43.:21:49.

Premier League and Football League guidelines we have had someone

:21:50.:21:53.

responsible for safeguarding in place since 2011." If you have been

:21:54.:21:57.

affected by anything we have been discussing this morning, you can

:21:58.:22:02.

find a list of helplines at the BBC Actionline.

:22:03.:22:12.

If you want to watch live coverage of the four-day Supreme Court case

:22:13.:22:18.

over the Government's approach to triggering Brexit, you can watch

:22:19.:22:26.

it on the BBC News website, by going to: bbc.co.uk/Brexit

:22:27.:22:32.

This is a spit hood, otherwise known as a spit guard,

:22:33.:22:36.

described by civil liberties groups as "a primitive, cruel

:22:37.:22:40.

and degrading tool that inspires fear and anguish".

:22:41.:22:48.

The mesh fabric hoods are legally used by police and placed over

:22:49.:22:51.

the heads of suspects to protect police officers from potentially

:22:52.:22:54.

Now a children's charity says the number of under-17s having it

:22:55.:22:57.

put on their heads in England has tripled in the last

:22:58.:23:00.

Though they say the true number could be even higher.

:23:01.:23:04.

This is one mother's short account of how her daughter, then aged 11,

:23:05.:23:07.

They had her under each arm and she had a spit hood

:23:08.:23:21.

over her head and leg and ankle restraints on and her

:23:22.:23:24.

And she had no, like, fight left in her anymore

:23:25.:23:30.

and they were literally dragging her with no shoes on.

:23:31.:23:32.

That must have been very upsetting to see?

:23:33.:23:36.

Here's an example of a spit hood being used

:23:37.:23:43.

Let's talk to Shamik Daunt who is a lawyer that works

:23:44.:24:18.

with the Charity Inquest and Che Donald who is from

:24:19.:24:21.

the Police Federation and is a serving police officer.

:24:22.:24:23.

Tell us why you're against the use of spit hoods, spit guards? I think

:24:24.:24:28.

we need to be clear that the use of these implements is both barbaric

:24:29.:24:33.

and it is unnecessary. Why? It is barbaric because of the real risk it

:24:34.:24:39.

places to a child in particular, physical health and their mental

:24:40.:24:42.

health and also the fact that it places that child in unacceptable

:24:43.:24:46.

risk of serious injury or loss of life. It is unnecessary because

:24:47.:24:50.

there are many other forms of restraint that are available to a

:24:51.:24:53.

police officer and it is probably for that reason that the vast

:24:54.:24:56.

majority or the majority of police forces in England and Wales don't

:24:57.:25:00.

use these devices. How does a spit guard lead to a loss of life? The

:25:01.:25:07.

main problem that I can see is that these devices are used in

:25:08.:25:10.

conjunction with other forms of restraint. Certain force policies

:25:11.:25:16.

say they can only be used once somebody is handcuffed. If somebody

:25:17.:25:20.

is handcuffed and held face down there is a risk of asphyxia. When

:25:21.:25:24.

that happens, it is difficult for a police officer to quickly respond

:25:25.:25:29.

and to identify that the individual being restrained is suffering that

:25:30.:25:32.

risk if there is a spit hood over their head. There are numerous

:25:33.:25:36.

examples around the world. OK, do you accept that? No. Ironically. It

:25:37.:25:43.

does seem to make logical sense, if your arms are behind your back and

:25:44.:25:46.

you're face down and you've got a spit hood on, there is a chance of

:25:47.:25:51.

positional asphyxia? I would say that application of a spit guard

:25:52.:25:56.

reduces that risk because if the spit guard isn't there, you're

:25:57.:26:00.

having to physically manhandle someone to prevent their face coming

:26:01.:26:04.

into your clear direction or that of your colleagues to prevent the

:26:05.:26:09.

spitting from taking place. If they are restrained in a horizontal

:26:10.:26:12.

position on the ground with the guard on, there is no pressure to

:26:13.:26:17.

them, the positional asphyxia risk is significantly reduced and it

:26:18.:26:20.

looks after the welfare of not only the person on the floor, but also

:26:21.:26:23.

the officers that are having to deal with that person. The other thing

:26:24.:26:27.

that I would also mention is, we spoke about children. We're talking

:26:28.:26:32.

about lack of a spit guard will mean physical force on a child to direct

:26:33.:26:39.

and push their head away from coming into contact. You don't have one. I

:26:40.:26:45.

do. Let's have a look. Snoot guard I've got here is identical to the

:26:46.:26:49.

guard you had in the video. A lot of the concern is that the guard is,

:26:50.:26:55.

you can't see what's happening to the person's face when they are in.

:26:56.:26:58.

And I'm happy to put this on. Please. You can have a look and see

:26:59.:27:04.

exactly where my face is. I'm talking. I'm not restricted. My

:27:05.:27:09.

breathing isn't laboured. I've worn this in training. It doesn't labour

:27:10.:27:13.

your breathing. The other models that are available, don't have the

:27:14.:27:18.

plastic sheeting in front, it is the meshing, but what happens within the

:27:19.:27:22.

media. Can I take this off? I'm happy to continue doing the

:27:23.:27:25.

interview with it on to be honest, it doesn't bother me. Keep it on for

:27:26.:27:30.

a second. Sure. If you were lying face down and struggling with a

:27:31.:27:34.

until of officers who were trying to arrest you and you were having

:27:35.:27:38.

handcuffs on the back, there is limited capability for you to move

:27:39.:27:42.

your head, isn't there? Without a doubt, but it depends how violently

:27:43.:27:45.

that person is struggling. We have got to remember in order to get that

:27:46.:27:49.

person from the ground to the floor, and transport them, we are going to

:27:50.:27:55.

be going near to their face, pucking them up, sitting with a suspect in a

:27:56.:28:00.

vehicle, we are going to be observing them at all times and be

:28:01.:28:05.

in close proximity to their face. You can clearly see that you can

:28:06.:28:09.

breathe through that. Breathing is not necessarily the issue. The issue

:28:10.:28:13.

is that it is very different putting on one of these hoods in the

:28:14.:28:18.

relative serenity of a television studio as compared to as you say...

:28:19.:28:22.

If breathe something not the I shall urks what is it then? Breathing is

:28:23.:28:30.

an issue. Asphyxia is suffocating? Yes. That would happen without a

:28:31.:28:36.

spit guard? It would, but it would be more difficult to see that

:28:37.:28:39.

happening and to respond quickly enough with a spit hood being put

:28:40.:28:45.

on. But if the individual was in trouble, they would be speaking, you

:28:46.:28:50.

would hear it? Well, no, because you're suffocating. Do you accept

:28:51.:28:53.

that? It is more difficult to see your face when that is on? Part of

:28:54.:28:59.

the training that officers receive in the use of spit guards is that

:29:00.:29:04.

they are taught to observe the person at all times. Of course, but

:29:05.:29:08.

it is harder to see when that's on your face. I appreciate that, but

:29:09.:29:11.

officers are monitoring someone when they are wearing one or not wearing

:29:12.:29:15.

one as closely as possible and officers are acutely aware of

:29:16.:29:20.

positional asphyxia, particularly around the positioning of limbs on

:29:21.:29:25.

people who have been detained to prevent this specific purpose and we

:29:26.:29:30.

try where possible to keep people on the ground for the least amount of

:29:31.:29:36.

time to prevent this. There are lots of caveats, if possible, we're

:29:37.:29:38.

trained to observe as much as possible. You can see how something

:29:39.:29:41.

might go wrong? I appreciate that. But we've got to remember as well,

:29:42.:29:46.

officers are out there, trying to restrain someone... But... Who is

:29:47.:29:53.

violently struggling. No. No, I accept that and everybody knows

:29:54.:29:57.

that, but it is whether it is morally right to use it on someone

:29:58.:30:01.

who is under 17? I wouldn't have a problem using it on someone under

:30:02.:30:05.

17. Throughout my service, I have been spat at probably five times and

:30:06.:30:09.

four of those times were people under 17 and one of those times was

:30:10.:30:16.

a female. So, the risk facing me of being assaulted and let's not

:30:17.:30:20.

forget, spitting is an assault and we are spitting at police officers

:30:21.:30:24.

and that makes it an assault on society as far as I'm concerned.

:30:25.:30:30.

Officers don't come into work to be treated in that way, I'm sure you

:30:31.:30:33.

wouldn't want to be spat in your face. The idea behind the guard, on

:30:34.:30:38.

the majority of cases they are only applied once the person has spat.

:30:39.:30:43.

Not all of them. Why not? I gave an example. I had a suspect in a van

:30:44.:30:56.

with me and the suspect said, as soon as I get out, I will spit in

:30:57.:31:01.

your face, and I said, I have now been made aware of his intentions,

:31:02.:31:04.

and he started clearing the throat so he was able to get enough phlegm

:31:05.:31:11.

in his mouth to do that. I will show the clip again of the person who had

:31:12.:31:15.

a spit God put on them, it looks like it is on the Underground. It's

:31:16.:31:21.

a different atmosphere, have a look at this.

:31:22.:31:28.

He is my boyfriend, 18 years old. Keep moving, please.

:31:29.:31:36.

Please, please, please. What the hell are you doing? Stop that. Stop

:31:37.:31:46.

it. Does that look barbaric? No. Having

:31:47.:31:55.

dealt with a number of incidents myself, it is easy to watch five

:31:56.:31:58.

seconds of footage and make a judgment. We need to know more about

:31:59.:32:05.

the situation, what information the officers were given, why they were

:32:06.:32:11.

responding, what the threat was perceived, and there are a number of

:32:12.:32:18.

questions. That case is live, subject to an investigation, so it

:32:19.:32:22.

would be improper for me to comment. What would you suggest instead of

:32:23.:32:27.

one of these herbs to protect officers from being spat at? There

:32:28.:32:32.

are other restraints that officers have. Forms of Holt, holding

:32:33.:32:38.

somebody in a way that is safe. It does not stop them spitting. It

:32:39.:32:43.

stops them suffering the spit, because of where they are standing.

:32:44.:32:49.

Let's take this. There is a risk that a suspect may head-butt

:32:50.:32:52.

somebody, but nobody suggests they should have neck braces. It is the

:32:53.:32:57.

same thing, there are restraints available, they can use reasonable

:32:58.:33:00.

force Intel defence or defence of others. These codes are not

:33:01.:33:04.

reasonable. It is not reasonable on a child. The police officer will be

:33:05.:33:11.

well built, fully trained in self defence, a child is not. That

:33:12.:33:19.

disparity in size is concerning. Even if we are not talking about

:33:20.:33:23.

children, police officers have a range of options available to them,

:33:24.:33:27.

and that is why the majority of forces do not roll these out. They

:33:28.:33:33.

are dangerous, barbaric and cruel. I disagree entirely. The assumption

:33:34.:33:38.

that police officers are big and burly draws the same assumption that

:33:39.:33:43.

all surgeons are men. 28% of the police force is female, the majority

:33:44.:33:48.

of the time it will be females having to deal with a burly

:33:49.:33:55.

17-year-old male. We so have a number of officers involved in a

:33:56.:33:59.

restrained. We are employing more physical restraint. We are talking

:34:00.:34:04.

about ensuring somebody is safely transported from the point of arrest

:34:05.:34:08.

to the point of custody. No police officer was the death of a child on

:34:09.:34:11.

their hands. No child deserves to be treated... I don't understand why

:34:12.:34:17.

the Police Federation is lobbying for something that places its

:34:18.:34:21.

members at that risk. We don't think that is the case. What places

:34:22.:34:27.

members at risk is going to work and being assaulted. In the Metropolitan

:34:28.:34:34.

last year, 900 officers were spat at. That is a hell of a lot. If we

:34:35.:34:39.

extrapolate those numbers nationally, we are looking at seven

:34:40.:34:42.

officers being assaulted by spitting a day, 40 why any other means. We

:34:43.:34:49.

are out there to protect our officers, if we don't, we will not

:34:50.:34:52.

have people looking after the members of the public. Let me read

:34:53.:34:59.

some messages. Johnny says, I am a serving police Sergeant, whilst I

:35:00.:35:02.

don't know the figures, there has been a big increase in the number of

:35:03.:35:07.

all ages spitting at and into the faces of police officers. The only

:35:08.:35:11.

other option is a physical hold and restraint on the head of the person

:35:12.:35:15.

who is spitting, which can cause injury to the detainee and the

:35:16.:35:19.

officers. The hood is the best way of stopping individuals spitting at

:35:20.:35:23.

those trying to protect the community. Essentially, the hold

:35:24.:35:30.

will be used anyway. There is no dispute about that. These hoods are

:35:31.:35:37.

used in conjunction. Other forms of restraint or proportionate, the

:35:38.:35:44.

juice of a hood in addition places that Persian at unacceptable risk of

:35:45.:35:49.

death or serious injury. Another one, as a former officer, I was

:35:50.:35:53.

handcuffed to the prison for several hours, the prisoners spat at me

:35:54.:35:58.

repeatedly. I wish in that case I had had a hood. Ian said, who knew

:35:59.:36:01.

the officers were experts in asphyxiation? The police should not

:36:02.:36:12.

have to put up with this. Anna says, hoods barbaric and unnecessary.

:36:13.:36:16.

Gordon says, spitting is the most reports of thing for somebody to do,

:36:17.:36:20.

it seems to be on the increase, we need to ensure we do not tolerated.

:36:21.:36:21.

Thank you. Still to come, could the routine use

:36:22.:36:29.

of caesarean section be having Scientists claim the surgery

:36:30.:36:32.

is enabling women with a narrow pelvic opening to survive childbirth

:36:33.:36:36.

and pass their genes Lady Gaga has revealed she suffers

:36:37.:36:38.

from post-traumatic stress disorder We'll be speaking to our

:36:39.:36:41.

entertainment reporter. With the news, here's Annita

:36:42.:36:51.

in the BBC Newsroom. Another football club has confirmed

:36:52.:37:03.

it is looking into child abuse claims about one of its employees.

:37:04.:37:07.

QPR will cooperate in any investigation.

:37:08.:37:11.

Meanwhile, lawyers from the Offside Trust,

:37:12.:37:12.

launched yesterday to support football players who are victims

:37:13.:37:14.

of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse

:37:15.:37:17.

They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players

:37:18.:37:21.

And they say big football figures still in the game are named

:37:22.:37:25.

A study suggests that the regular use of caesarean sections is having

:37:26.:37:31.

Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow

:37:32.:37:36.

pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth,

:37:37.:37:39.

are now surviving to pass on the genes of their skeletal

:37:40.:37:42.

The Government is to make Network Rail share control of track

:37:43.:37:48.

maintenance in England with the private train-operating

:37:49.:37:51.

companies, in what's being seen as the biggest shakeup of the rail

:37:52.:37:54.

The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling says that Network Rail

:37:55.:37:57.

and the train operators should be able to work together to resolve

:37:58.:38:00.

problems more effectively, but unions have warned that safety

:38:01.:38:03.

Lawyers representing the team leading the legal fight

:38:04.:38:11.

against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy will begin

:38:12.:38:13.

The landmark Supreme Court hearing begins hearing a second day

:38:14.:38:16.

Yesterday, Government lawyers said the ministers had the power

:38:17.:38:22.

The High Court ruled against the Government in November

:38:23.:38:27.

and said Parliament should be consulted first.

:38:28.:38:36.

The England coach Trevor Bayliss says Alastair Cook is "up

:38:37.:38:40.

for the fight" and will continue to lead England as Test captain

:38:41.:38:43.

Last month, Cook hinted that he may step down after the current tour

:38:44.:38:47.

of India but Bayliss says he was surprised by that

:38:48.:38:50.

and the pair are already working towards the trip to Australia.

:38:51.:38:55.

Reports in America suggest that Thomas Bjorn will be named

:38:56.:38:57.

Europe have lifted the trophy on the three occasions that

:38:58.:39:01.

He's also been an assistant captain four times.

:39:02.:39:06.

Hull City remain in the Premier League's bottom

:39:07.:39:08.

three after they lost 1-0 at Middlesbrough last night.

:39:09.:39:11.

Gaston Ramirez scored the only goal of the game just

:39:12.:39:13.

And, Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales'

:39:14.:39:21.

Jones won gold in Rio this summer, becoming the first Welsh woman

:39:22.:39:26.

to successfully defend an Olympic title.

:39:27.:39:29.

She also won the European crown earlier in the year.

:39:30.:39:31.

It's the second time she's been given the honour.

:39:32.:39:39.

The most important constitutional case in decades is being debated

:39:40.:39:42.

The Government wants the right to launch the process of leaving

:39:43.:39:48.

the European Union and triggering Brexit without a parliamentary vote.

:39:49.:39:52.

Today is the second of four days of debate, with the decision

:39:53.:39:55.

It's been described by one leading Breixteer, Iain Duncan Smith,

:39:56.:40:00.

as "like watching paint dry", but let's watch a little of it.

:40:01.:40:12.

Parliament's choice as to how to give its permission and the extent

:40:13.:40:17.

to which it wants to get involved. If you do the contrast in terms of

:40:18.:40:20.

symmetry between then and now, it might be thought that the giving of

:40:21.:40:30.

article 50 was by primary legislation, the 2015 act. We submit

:40:31.:40:39.

there is real symmetry there. Does that not beg the question as to

:40:40.:40:47.

whether the 2015 act expected Parliamentary consideration of the

:40:48.:40:50.

position in the light of the results of the referendum? On any view, the

:40:51.:40:58.

2015 act... My case is the 2015 act involved Parliament deciding to put

:40:59.:41:03.

the final decision to the people, the in/ out question, and we submit

:41:04.:41:09.

that whether it said things or did not say things, it still carries

:41:10.:41:14.

real constitutional significance as having been passed at a point in

:41:15.:41:18.

time when they knew full well that the only way of achieving one of the

:41:19.:41:25.

things, one of the possibilities on the binary question, was to give

:41:26.:41:29.

article 50 notice. That was the only way in which withdrawal could be

:41:30.:41:33.

affected. You had to take a step on the international plane. You would

:41:34.:41:37.

have to give article 50 notice, that is the mandated process. The

:41:38.:41:41.

referendum does not say anything about when the notice should be

:41:42.:41:47.

given. No, and it might be thought not to do so deliberately, that is

:41:48.:41:52.

one of the paragon of decisions which would involve the exercise of

:41:53.:41:56.

expert and experienced judgment from those who would thereafter have the

:41:57.:42:00.

courage of the negotiations. That is the political debate that has been

:42:01.:42:03.

raging for the last few weeks and months. Is it realistic to regard an

:42:04.:42:11.

Article 50 notice as an entirely limited notification that the UK is

:42:12.:42:21.

going to withdraw? Because the scheme of Article 50 contemplates

:42:22.:42:27.

that that will lead to the very least a framework agreement as to

:42:28.:42:32.

the future. Is it realistic to suppose that the notice will give no

:42:33.:42:41.

clue as to what the nature of the direction intended is, what the

:42:42.:42:44.

nature of the agreement wished for his? It will not delve into what the

:42:45.:42:50.

possible agreement might look like, it won't delve into how the

:42:51.:42:54.

Government might choose to negotiate. All parties are

:42:55.:43:02.

proceeding... It will just comply with article 50. And everything else

:43:03.:43:10.

occurs subsequently? Yes. That flows into the point that is made on the

:43:11.:43:16.

other side, which is to accept that if the supreme court decides against

:43:17.:43:21.

it, the solution is a one line act. If you want to continue

:43:22.:43:23.

watching that, switch to the BBC News channel,

:43:24.:43:25.

or you can find it The chief Brexit negotiator is

:43:26.:43:38.

speaking live in Brussels, he has already said the work will be

:43:39.:43:42.

legally compensated and politically sensitive.

:43:43.:43:50.

TRANSLATION: The ECB, the European investment bank, Europol and the

:43:51.:44:00.

European Court of Justice. I will be meeting those in charge of the

:44:01.:44:05.

committee of the regions and the European economic and social

:44:06.:44:09.

committee in the next few weeks. For all of these reasons, I am sure that

:44:10.:44:22.

when the European union receives notification from the UK, it will be

:44:23.:44:31.

ready. Time will be short. It is clear that a period for actual

:44:32.:44:36.

negotiations will be shorter than two years. At the beginning, the two

:44:37.:44:45.

years includes time for the European Council to set guidelines. For the

:44:46.:44:51.

Council to authorise negotiations based on the recommendation of the

:44:52.:45:00.

commission of what article 50 says. At the end, the agreement must be

:45:01.:45:07.

approved by the Council and European Parliament, finally the UK will have

:45:08.:45:13.

to approve the agreement. All within the two-year period.

:45:14.:45:20.

He is the European Commission's chief Brexit negotiator.

:45:21.:45:22.

We speak to Fiona De Londras, Professor of global legal studies

:45:23.:45:24.

at Birmingham Law School and an expert in constitutional

:45:25.:45:27.

and European law, and Chantal-Aimee Doerries QC,

:45:28.:45:29.

chairman of the Bar Council, head of all barristers

:45:30.:45:32.

What are they debating? The central case that the Government is arguing

:45:33.:45:50.

that it is entitled to trigger Article 50 to take the UK out of the

:45:51.:45:57.

European Union and various citizens, two citizens, started proceedings

:45:58.:45:59.

arguing that this is a matter for Parliament. In other words

:46:00.:46:03.

Parliament has to decide whether or not to trigger Article 50. The real

:46:04.:46:08.

issue around this is the scope of the royal prerogative which is

:46:09.:46:11.

normally an issue that deals with Foreign Affairs and so the question

:46:12.:46:17.

here is, where we're looking at a treaty, Article 50 arises in

:46:18.:46:20.

relation to a treaty, is there something the executive or the Prime

:46:21.:46:24.

Minister can act on or does she in fact need Parliament to have a

:46:25.:46:28.

debate and an Act to allow her to do that? Domestic rights came in

:46:29.:46:37.

through the European Communities Act. Why is that relevant and why

:46:38.:46:40.

might it be a problem for the Government? Well, the relevance

:46:41.:46:45.

according to the people who are trying to ensure there would be

:46:46.:46:50.

Parliamentary consent is to say that the European Union is not just any

:46:51.:46:54.

international organisation, the treaties here are not just any other

:46:55.:46:58.

set of treaties because of their domestic effect, it would be

:46:59.:47:03.

necessary for Parliament to be the entity that would consent to

:47:04.:47:08.

beginning this process which it is said will inevitably lead to the

:47:09.:47:11.

loss of these rights which are properly seen as domestic as well as

:47:12.:47:14.

international. OK. I mean, under our constitution

:47:15.:47:21.

Parliament is the one that's sovereign and has to pass

:47:22.:47:25.

legislation, but it is the Government that's in charge with the

:47:26.:47:30.

foreign treaties, isn't leaving the EU a foreign treaty? That's the

:47:31.:47:32.

issue for the Supreme Court. If we listen to yesterday's sub mirks made

:47:33.:47:36.

to the court, the central question is whether the rights are that the

:47:37.:47:41.

citizens benefit, whether they were implemented through the treaties or

:47:42.:47:46.

whether the Act which Parliament passed provided or gave people those

:47:47.:47:49.

rights and it is not a straightforward question as we can

:47:50.:47:51.

see from the four days that have been set aside to look at this.

:47:52.:47:57.

Fiona, in terms of the process, the court is looking at two things,

:47:58.:48:00.

whether the process to start leaving the European Union needs to be

:48:01.:48:04.

passed by MPs and also if the devolved Parliament should have a

:48:05.:48:09.

say. Yes, so if the court decides that Parliament should consent

:48:10.:48:12.

before Article 50 can be triggered then a second and extremely

:48:13.:48:16.

complicated set of questions arises as to whether or not the devolved

:48:17.:48:20.

Parliaments and perhaps particularly the Scottish Parliament would have

:48:21.:48:27.

to consent to Westminster passing legislation that would allow for

:48:28.:48:31.

Article 50 to be triggered. So there is a second and very complicated set

:48:32.:48:37.

of issues around Scotland and also a further set of issues arising around

:48:38.:48:41.

Northern Ireland which are slightly dimp, but also complicated. OK,

:48:42.:48:45.

well, let's talk about devolution, what happens if the Supreme Court

:48:46.:48:49.

decides Scottish Parliament should have a say in Article 50 and

:48:50.:48:52.

Northern Ireland as well as Westminster?

:48:53.:48:55.

Well, that's the very tricky question, isn't it? It is one that's

:48:56.:49:00.

really arisen at this level at the Supreme Court. At its most extreme

:49:01.:49:04.

if the Supreme Court were to conclude that, then one would

:49:05.:49:08.

imagine that we would have to have debates in those various devolved

:49:09.:49:14.

parliaments on this issue before Westminster were able, itself, to

:49:15.:49:17.

pass an Act. I have to say that would be quite an extreme position

:49:18.:49:21.

and perhaps really flags or highlights some of the challenges

:49:22.:49:24.

around devolution that perhaps haven't historically really been

:49:25.:49:26.

discussed and what's interesting about this case, it is one of the

:49:27.:49:31.

first where the Supreme Court really has had to look at these issues and

:49:32.:49:36.

detail. Can I ask you about the independence of the judiciary, it

:49:37.:49:39.

has been questioned in the run up to this. How do the judges ensure that

:49:40.:49:46.

this is simply about the legalities, the legal side of this and not about

:49:47.:49:50.

their own personal views or politics or opinions leaking through? Well,

:49:51.:49:56.

their training is such, that's how they have been trained to work...

:49:57.:49:59.

But they are human beings? They are, indeed. If you are looking at the

:50:00.:50:04.

underlying course and we saw in the divisional court and the Supreme

:50:05.:50:07.

Court, the judges have been at pains to make clear that this is not a

:50:08.:50:10.

political decision. It is one that will affect all of us and it will

:50:11.:50:14.

affect what Parliament or the Government is able to do, but at the

:50:15.:50:17.

end of the day, the question they're being asked to determine is a very

:50:18.:50:22.

narrow one and actually the independence of our judiciary is

:50:23.:50:25.

right at the heart of our justice system. It is important not only for

:50:26.:50:29.

these difficult constitutional questions about citizens,

:50:30.:50:32.

Government, Government and the executive, but it is also important

:50:33.:50:36.

in every day life, where you may have disputes between family members

:50:37.:50:39.

and ensuring that we are able to respect our judiciary and that we

:50:40.:50:42.

have faith in them in being able to do this job. I've travelled around

:50:43.:50:47.

the world in the job that I have this year and one of the things

:50:48.:50:51.

that's been really striking is that our judiciary is particularly

:50:52.:50:55.

respected overseas for their ability to be independent. So to remove

:50:56.:50:59.

themselves from any personal concerns they may have and to rule

:51:00.:51:03.

as it is said without fear or favour.

:51:04.:51:03.

Thank you very much. Thank you. And a reminder, if you want

:51:04.:51:08.

to continue watching live coverage of the Supreme Court case,

:51:09.:51:11.

you can watch it on the BBC News website, by going

:51:12.:51:14.

to bbc.co.uk/Brexit. Still to come, Lady Gaga has

:51:15.:51:17.

revealed she suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder

:51:18.:51:19.

since being raped at the age of 19. We're getting all the details

:51:20.:51:22.

from our correspondent. Could the routine use

:51:23.:51:27.

of caesarean section be having A study says that women

:51:28.:51:29.

with a narrow pelvis, who would historically have died

:51:30.:51:33.

giving birth, will nowadays survive and pass those skeletal genes

:51:34.:51:36.

on to their daughters. Let's get a bit more insight

:51:37.:51:41.

into this research assistant professor Philipp Mitteroecker

:51:42.:51:47.

was a part of the research team In London, we're joined

:51:48.:51:49.

by Dr Daghni Rajasingam, a spokesperson for the Royal College

:51:50.:51:54.

of Obstetricians and a consultant obstetrician

:51:55.:51:57.

at St Thomas Hospital in London. Thank you very much for talking to

:51:58.:52:08.

us. Professor first of all, tell us more about the research. We

:52:09.:52:17.

developed a mathematical model that shows how Caesarean sections

:52:18.:52:21.

influenced evolution in our modern society now a days. And the

:52:22.:52:28.

intuition around that is around for a while so that's not maybe not a

:52:29.:52:32.

big surprise, but we are the first one to actually model that and to

:52:33.:52:41.

predict figures how this effect was and we predicted that Caesarean

:52:42.:52:46.

sections had left an increase of 10% to 20% in the initial rate of foetal

:52:47.:52:53.

pelvic mismatch which means the baby doesn't fit through the maternal

:52:54.:52:59.

birth canal. D I wonder how you react to this research? Good

:53:00.:53:03.

morning. You mentioned the routine use of Caesarean sections, we don't

:53:04.:53:08.

routinely do Caesarean sections. The important thing to remember, there

:53:09.:53:12.

are a variety of reasons why we may choose to do a Caesarean section in

:53:13.:53:16.

consultation with the woman and some of these are occasionally

:53:17.:53:21.

life-saving. Either for the mother or for the baby so the routine use

:53:22.:53:27.

of Caesarean Serks sections is something not used in the UK and we

:53:28.:53:31.

can talk about the reasons why women need Caesarean sections and an

:53:32.:53:35.

important issue of why Caesarean section rates are increasing

:53:36.:53:38.

globally and certainly increasing faster in certain countries.

:53:39.:53:42.

We will talk about that in a second. I wonder professor what you think

:53:43.:53:46.

the implications of your research are? I would like it mention that

:53:47.:53:52.

our study was not meant to be critical about C-sections of or

:53:53.:53:57.

modern medicine in general. My own children had to be delivered by

:53:58.:54:01.

Caesarean section and I was happy that this opportunity was there.

:54:02.:54:05.

Second, our predictions are about the actual rates of foetal pelvic

:54:06.:54:11.

disproportion, not about Caesarean section rates. The rate of Caesarean

:54:12.:54:16.

sections have increased many more times that the proportion rates for

:54:17.:54:22.

other than medical reasons and it is also that the Caesarean sections are

:54:23.:54:28.

those that save the life of the mother and the baby. Those other

:54:29.:54:33.

Caesarean sections did not affect evolution because those babies most

:54:34.:54:36.

likely would have been born anyway. Right. I understand your point about

:54:37.:54:41.

you don't want people to see this as criticism of C-sections. Are you

:54:42.:54:46.

hoping the research might inform debate and discussion around birth

:54:47.:54:52.

methods? Yes. I mean, so, our study doesn't really see anything about

:54:53.:54:55.

whether one should do C-section or not. It shows that this practise,

:54:56.:55:01.

which of course is life-saving fortunately, has been effect on the

:55:02.:55:05.

evolution and it shows also that, I mean, the large discussion about

:55:06.:55:12.

C-sections and the increase in C-sections often this literature

:55:13.:55:17.

assumes that the foetal pelvic proportion stayed constant, but we

:55:18.:55:20.

showed that it didn't. It did evolve in fact. I detect from you doctor

:55:21.:55:24.

that you are worried that this is going to be seen as a criticism and

:55:25.:55:29.

that you feel you have to adopt a defensive position? No, I don't

:55:30.:55:33.

think we have to be defensive because I think most obstetricians

:55:34.:55:38.

and most units do Caesarean sections when they are required and when they

:55:39.:55:40.

are appropriate. What is important to take into the evolution that we

:55:41.:55:44.

have been discussing is that things like diabetes are much, much more

:55:45.:55:51.

common at yawninger age. We see many more women of reproductive age that

:55:52.:55:54.

have diabetes. That has consequences as to whether or not they may need

:55:55.:56:00.

an Caesarean section. Rates of obesity is increasing. More and more

:56:01.:56:04.

women have a higher Body Mass Index and this has an impact on the

:56:05.:56:07.

Caesarean section rates. It is really usele to talk about Caesarean

:56:08.:56:10.

sections. It is really useful to talk about the mode of delivery for

:56:11.:56:15.

populations, but I think that the very important fact is that women

:56:16.:56:20.

can try and reduce the risk of Caesarean section, increase the

:56:21.:56:26.

chances of a really good pregnancy outcome by prepregnancy planning,

:56:27.:56:30.

being as fit as you can be, being as close to your ideal body weight, if

:56:31.:56:34.

you have medical conditions talking to your doctors or healthcare

:56:35.:56:37.

professionals about it, all of those are really important things. Thank

:56:38.:56:40.

you very much. Thank you both of you.

:56:41.:56:43.

The pop star, Lady Gaga, has revealed that she has suffered

:56:44.:56:46.

from post-traumatic stress disorder, since she was raped

:56:47.:56:48.

Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu can tell us more.

:56:49.:56:50.

Well, she revealed this yesterday whilst she was visiting some LGBT

:56:51.:56:56.

young people, homeless people at a shelter in the States. She actually

:56:57.:57:00.

talked about it and said it is the first time she has ever revealed

:57:01.:57:06.

that she suffers from PDST in an interview with the Today programme

:57:07.:57:07.

on NBC. I've never told anyone that

:57:08.:57:13.

before so here we are. But the kindness that's been

:57:14.:57:16.

shown to me by doctors as well as my family and my friends,

:57:17.:57:19.

it has really saved my life. This is the first time she talked

:57:20.:57:26.

about it. Like you said, she talked about rape that she was raped when

:57:27.:57:31.

she was 19 years of age. She says it was a man 20 years her senior. She

:57:32.:57:34.

only revealed that information two years ago and she was nominated for

:57:35.:57:43.

an Oscar this year, for her song Til It Happens to you which was about

:57:44.:57:47.

campus rates. She is coming out about the issues which are important

:57:48.:57:50.

and will help young people talk about stuff. Thank you very much.

:57:51.:57:55.

Some messages on the subject of spit hoods or spit guards. We were

:57:56.:58:03.

discussing those earlier. The number of under 17s having spit guards

:58:04.:58:09.

placed on their heads has increased. "I can understand that restraining

:58:10.:58:12.

officers being concerned about being spat at because I have experienced

:58:13.:58:17.

it a number of times. I support their use." That's from Jan. Thank

:58:18.:58:19.

you. Tomorrow, more on abuse in football

:58:20.:58:24.

and we follow the former boxing promoter Kelly Malonie as she takes

:58:25.:58:27.

some of her old clothes I went up to her

:58:28.:58:29.

at the end of the class - she said, "Where did you copy

:58:30.:58:34.

this essay?" Because she couldn't believe

:58:35.:58:37.

that a little chubby black girl with her pebble lenses

:58:38.:58:40.

could write an essay like that.

:58:41.:58:44.

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