Browse content similar to 06/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme. | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
This morning, more damning allegations over abuse in football, | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
including claims of more cover-ups and that people still | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
involved in the game have been involved in abuse. | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
I have not seen the absolute proof of it, but victims have come forward | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
to us indicating that such clauses have been used elsewhere. How many | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
clubs? I cannot the specific, but I know of several. Who have signed | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
similar... ? Victims who say they have been the subject of similar | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
confidentiality provisions. We'll get reaction to that from one | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
man who says he was abused Former Southampton youth player | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
and ex-professional Billy Seymour will be talking to us | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
in his first live interview. Also on the programme, we'll talk | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
to one of the Conservative MPs who say they'll vote | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
against Theresa May in a bid to force the Government | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
to reveal its plans for leaving And, this man has been named | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
as a non-violent extremist for holding views like this, | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
which the Government says Those things which people engage in, | :01:10. | :01:22. | |
those actions which people do that are against some people's religious | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
views, whilst they have the right legally to do those things, we still | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
have a right to at least teach our children and our communities that | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
this is a sin. But do such views make | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
someone extremist? We'll meet the man | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
at the centre of it. Hello, welcome to the programme, | :01:39. | :01:50. | |
we're live until 11am. At around 10:30am we'll cross live | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
to the Supreme Court in London, where arguments are continuing | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
to take place over whether the Government or MPs in Parliament | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
should have the final say Do get in touch on all the stories | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
we're talking about this morning. If you text, you will be charged | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
at the standard network rate. The FA has just published its full | :02:07. | :02:20. | |
terms of reference for its review into football abuse. It has also | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
announced it has changed the person leading the review, it says it had | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
originally intended that the QC would lead it, but in the light of | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
the increased scope since it was announced, and with respect to her, | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
other -- the decision was taken to appoint another QC instead. More to | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
come in a couple of minutes. A study suggests that the regular | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
use of caesarean sections is having Scientists at the University | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
of Vienna say women with a narrow pelvis, who would historically have | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
died during childbirth, are now surviving, to pass | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
on the genes of their skeletal A little earlier I spoke | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
to our reporter Jane-Frances Academics have looked at data from | :02:57. | :03:09. | |
the World Health Organisation and other large studies and they | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
estimate looking at the stickers that 30 women in 1000 in the 1950s | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
and 60s had a Caesarean section because of a narrow birth canal. | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
This has gone up to 36 in 1000 now. This is because women historically | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
would have died in childbirth, but they are passing on the | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
characteristic to their daughter, and those daughters are then passing | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
it on to their daughters. Passing on the narrow pelvis? Yes. They are | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
also saying that babies are getting bigger, healthier but they have | :03:49. | :03:57. | |
bigger heads. They say it is not going to... Sorry, can I do it | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
again? I am just tired. We will go from the top. Tell us what the | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
researchers are saying. Academics have looked at data from the World | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
Health Organisation and other large birth surveys. They have estimated, | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
looking at these figures, that during the 1950s and 60s 30 women in | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
1000 had a Caesarean section because of the narrow birth canal, because | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
of a narrow pelvis, and they say now that 36 in 1000... Historically, | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
these women would have died in childbirth, but they are passing on | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
this characteristic to their daughter, and it has been passed on | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
through the generations. The numbers are still tiny, but now we know that | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
Caesarean sections are having an impact on evolution, might that | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
impact on the number of Caesarean sections in the future? They say it | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
will continue to go up, but it will be slow and slight. It is a small | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
number of women, and babies' heads cannot grow indefinitely. Yes, there | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
will be an increase, but there are many reasons why women have | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Caesarean sections, so it will have some impact, but not a large impact. | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
You got an insight into what it is like having worked an overnight | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
shift and stained later in order to do that report for us, so thank you | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
to Jane. Annita is in the BBC | :05:31. | :05:31. | |
Newsroom with a summary Lawyers from the Offside Trust, | :05:32. | :05:33. | |
launched yesterday to support football players who are victims | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
cover-ups in football. They claim that "a number of clubs" | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
have used gagging orders on players And they say big football figures | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
still in the game are named In what's being called the biggest | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
shakeup of the railways in 20 years, the Government is to make | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
Network Rail share control of track maintenance in England with private | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
train-operating companies. The Transport Secretary Chris | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Grayling says Network Rail and the train operators should be | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
able to work together With fares going up again | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
and punctuality well below target, passengers are often unhappy | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
with their train service. There's only one train every hour | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
from here to Manchester. My train in the morning is always | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
late but it is not late by too much. Now the Government says it has | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
a plan to cut delays. At the moment, Network Rail runs | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
the track and private The problem is, when things need | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
repairing, both sides often disagree about who is responsible and how | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
to fix it, which creates delays. Now the Government says it wants | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Network Rail and the train firms to form local teams, | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
working together, not At the moment we've got a situation | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
where we've got different companies, often talking different languages, | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
doing different things, not speaking to each other properly, | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
throwing contracts around It's about evolving into a teamwork | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
structure into the frontline of our railways so that the train | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
operators, the infrastructure teams, work hand in glove to deliver | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
a better outcome for passengers. In a unique experiment, | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
the Government also wants a private company, not Network Rail, | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
to control everything on a proposed new line | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
between Oxford and Cambridge. If it is successful, | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
ministers have not ruled out trying something similar on other lines, | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
although it would be much harder Unions say it is an attempt | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
to privatise track repairs and argue A key part of the Government's | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
counter-terrorism strategy, Prevent, is challenged in the High Court | :07:40. | :07:48. | |
for the first time this week. The Home Office says | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
the strategy plays a key role in the fight against terrorism, | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
but a British Muslim activist, who was named as a non-violent | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
extremist by the Government, will argue that the strategy | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
breaches his right to free speech. Some of the world's biggest tech | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
companies are teaming up to prevent extremist material | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
being shared online. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
and Microsoft will share details of images and videos they remove | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
from their own sites to stop Lawyers representing the team | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
leading the legal fight against the Prime Minister's Brexit | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
strategy will begin The landmark Supreme Court hearing | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
begins hearing a second day Yesterday, Government lawyers said | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
the ministers had the power The High Court ruled | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
against the Government in November and said Parliament should | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
be consulted first. You can get hourly updates on the | :08:43. | :08:55. | |
BBC News channel all morning and full coverage live this afternoon of | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
the arguments being put forward by lawyers for those who brought the | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
case. You can also catch all of the proceedings live online, with | :09:05. | :09:05. | |
rolling text updates and analysis. Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
has been shortlisted by the US magazine Time | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
for its Person Of The Year award. The magazine says his role | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
in helping bring about Brexit started what it calls "a global | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
populist wave against Others on the shortlist of people | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
deemed to have most influenced the news in 2016 include | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Turkey's President | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
Erdogan and Beyonce. The Brazilian football club | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
Chapecoense, which lost 19 of its players in last week's plane | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
crash in Colombia, has been awarded the Copa Sudamericana title | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
by the governing body The team was on its way to take part | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
in the final of the competition when the plane they were travelling | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
on crashed near That's a summary of | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
the latest BBC News. A couple of comments on the | :09:55. | :10:09. | |
Government's strategy to deal radical as people. She says, Prevent | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
does more harm than good and build a relationship of distrust in targeted | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
communities. It is used as a judgment tool by those who are not | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
experienced enough to judge. It has shown it does not work and that | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
pushes them deeper into isolation and extremist thoughts. Anthony | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
says, there is a fine line between free speech and extremism. He has | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
been seen as supporting an organisation which could be | :10:43. | :10:51. | |
interpreted as hate speech. Do get in touch with us | :10:52. | :10:53. | |
throughout the morning. If you text, you will be charged | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
at the standard network rate. Let's get some sport | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
now with John Watson. John, it seems that Alastair Cook | :11:01. | :11:01. | |
will continue as England captain at least until the next | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
Ashes series? He surprised people when he said he | :11:05. | :11:14. | |
was not sure if he would continue. He said it could be two months or | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
two years. That shocked some people in the England Test cricket camp, | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
they were surprised by his comment. But Trevor Bayliss, the head coach, | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
has qualified the comments, he said they have been taken out of | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
proportion, and he expects Alastair Cook to be in the role for the next | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
Ashes Series in Australia next winter. Alastair Cook is hugely | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
experienced, the most capped test player Tom Moore Test cricket runs | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
than anybody else. When he steps down, there is no suggestion that he | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
will not continue to open the batting, but Trevor Bayliss says he | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
is up for the fight and he expects him to be in the role as captain for | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
the Ashes Series. Manchester City and Chelsea have | :11:59. | :12:00. | |
been charged by the FA for failing to control their players | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
at the weekend? Some ugly scenes at the end of the | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
match, Chelsea won 3-1, it was sparked by a tackle by Sergio Aguero | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
on Dafydd Louise, he has been banned for four matches, but there were | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
ugly scenes, a melee, the player is fronting up to each other, the worst | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
moment was when Cesc Fabregas was bottled round the neck by | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
Fernandinho, who has been banned for three matches. It was ugly. Both | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
teams have been charged, they have until 6pm on Thursday to respond. | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
Ugly scenes at the end of that match, as seems likely to face the | :12:42. | :12:42. | |
consequences. And finally, John, the most | :12:43. | :12:43. | |
tweeted-about sporting moments Remember when England were element | :12:44. | :12:53. | |
edited by Iceland in the year rose? Everybody was talking about it. It | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
was the most tweeted moment on social media, sporting moment. | :13:00. | :13:09. | |
128,000 tweets per minute, 21,000 more than when Leicester City won | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
the title. The bad news proving the most interesting talking point on | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
social media, as opposed to what was a fantastic moment when Leicester | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
City won the title. It got people talking. Great news for Iceland | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
fans. This morning, claims of more | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
cover-ups in football over the sex-abuse scandal which has | :13:27. | :13:28. | |
dominated the news since this programme first interviewed | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
Andy Woodward about his abuse. Lawyers for a support group | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
called the Offside Trust, set up by the four players who spoke | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
with such dignity here on our sofa two weeks ago, | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
say gagging orders on players sexually abused by coaches have been | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
used by "a number" of clubs. They also claim that big football | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
names still working in the game have been named by alleged | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
victims as abusers. Our sports news correspondent | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
Richard Conway is here. The lawyer representing the trust | :13:55. | :14:09. | |
that announced itself to the world yesterday, started by Andy Woodward | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
and some of the other players who have been telling their stories of | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
abuse over the past few weeks, he is concerned because he feels that | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
people involved in abuse could still be working within football. | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
We've had complaints which are relatively recent. | :14:25. | :14:25. | |
We've had an awful lot of complaints which are historical. | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
My overview was that it was probably worse in the old days, | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
So there could still be people within football and other sports | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
perhaps who are either complicit or actually engaging | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
Yes, I would stress that we are not making any specific allegations | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
What we're calling for is an independent investigation. | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
Is it a series of complaints that is certainly enough to give | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
a reasonable suspicion to justify a thorough and independent | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
The other issue is the confidential at the agreements, Chelsea put one | :15:02. | :15:16. | |
in place against a former player Tom and he is concerned about that, the | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
FA have said any club trying to silence victims would be morally | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
repugnant, but he is concerned that a number of clubs have got these | :15:27. | :15:27. | |
agreements in place. Well, first of all, I have not acted | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
in the Chelsea case so I can't I think it's commonly the case that | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
confidentiality provisions are used in things like employment disputes, | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
for example civil But when you've got something | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
as fundamental and important as abuse of children, | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
it seems entirely inappropriate for such clauses to be used | :15:48. | :15:48. | |
when the priority should be on other And the cancer being cut out | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
of the organisation. To be fair to Chelsea, | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
I thought their statement And indeed they have had the wisdom | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
to admits themselves that they believe the use | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
of the clause was inappropriate. I've not seen the absolute proof | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
of it at this stage, but certainly victims have come | :16:09. | :16:18. | |
forward to us indicating that such How many clubs, from | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
what you've been told? I can't be specific at this stage, | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
but I know of several. Who have signed similar | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
confidential...? Victims who've come forward who say | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
that they have been the subject of But I want to stress that I'm | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
not making any specific I can only tell you what victims | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
have been told, yeah. But you wouldn't accept that, | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
if you were working for a client who claims to have | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
been sexually abused? You would never advise them | :16:52. | :16:53. | |
to accept a gagging order like that? There are over 20 police forces | :16:54. | :17:07. | |
looking into allegations and claims which have been made. We are talking | :17:08. | :17:15. | |
about 55 clubs being involved at all levels, and over 350 survivors of | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
child abuse reported their claims to the authorities. Those are figures | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
that are days out. Days old. We are awaiting updates. We don't know the | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
true scale of it. The FA published their terms of reference for their | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
big review. Yes, this is an internal review which will look at what the | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
FA knew and when. The terms of reference we have been waiting for. | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
They have been published. They go into depth to consider what lessons | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
wb learnt, what they knew at the time and they say they will review | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
the 70s, the 80s and the 90s up to 2005 and the a QC, she was | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
originally supposed to be leading this inquiry for them, but she has | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
been replaced by the FA because they say there has been a widening of | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
this investigation, but the FA say they want to look and consider any | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
failings at the time and in particular, whether it failed to act | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
appropriately and if anyone raised child sexual abuse to them, and what | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
came to light at the time? That review will be on going now and the | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
terms of reference could still change, they say, if they feel it | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
necessary. Crucially, they say they are committed to full disclosure of | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
the review's findings, not quite a we will publish, but it is near a | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
publication than a few weeks ago? Greg Clarke told us a few weeks ago | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
that he was concerned about protecting the anonymity and the | :18:39. | :18:40. | |
rights of survivors of child abuse, but there is a commitment to get as | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
much out as they can. Harry Redknapp criticised the FA. Yes, the former | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
manager of Southampton. The BBC named Bob Higgins the former | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
Southampton youth coach as someone, six players have come forward to | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
make allegations against him. Harry Redknapp said he knew Bob Higgins | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
and he was aware of rumours around him and didn't know of any | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
wrongdoing because this was after Bob Higgins left the club, but he | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
believes the FA could have done more to stop Bob Higgins working within | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
the game despite warning letters being sent out by local authorities, | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
but police and by the Football League. | :19:17. | :19:29. | |
For a long time he was probably the leading | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
youth development guy in the | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
country when he worked at Southampton, he signed the likes | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
of Shearer and the Wallace brothers and lots of outstanding England | :19:44. | :19:45. | |
footballers, but then obviously the rumours | :19:46. | :19:47. | |
were going on even at that | :19:48. | :19:48. | |
time and then it was a programme I watched | :19:49. | :19:50. | |
where one of the lads who | :19:51. | :19:52. | |
played at Southampton, the fantastic young guy, he came out. | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
This young guy had spoke about Bob Higgins and | :19:55. | :19:56. | |
the type of stuff he was doing with kids at Southampton and I thought | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
that would be the end of him, but then suddenly I see his name pop | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
he has still been involved in football since that day, I thought | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
that would have been the finish of him. | :20:09. | :20:09. | |
Beyond that television programme, was there anything else you as | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
someone operating in the region knew about him or did you hear rumours, | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
but without much substance? There was always rumours going around | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
about him, I think, certainly at that time and after that time, there | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
was always talk. When people now say, I mean, and Southampton, | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
obviously, he left there, they got rid of him, but to pop up in | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
football, I heard people say, "I'm surprised." They must have seen that | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
programme. Anyone associated with Southampton would have seen that | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
programme and I thought that would have been the finish of him in | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
football, but he has been working. Was there a letter in 1977 from | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
police and social services saying, "That he posed a risk to children? | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
If I got a letter as a manager of a football club and someone gave me a | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
letter saying he was a risk to children, I certainly wouldn't | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
behaving him anywhere near a football club or anything I would | :21:00. | :21:01. | |
have been associated with, he wouldn't have been near it. | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
Southampton is a great football club and it is run by fantastic people | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
there now. They had a great manager. If he suspected anything, I'm sure | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
he would have been the first one to have, he would have put his boot, he | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
would have booted him out. There were strong characters there. If | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
they had real suspicions I'm sure he would have been gone long before, | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
but until you can prove something or there is a bit of evidence, it is | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
difficult, I think the FA could have done a bit more to monitor him and | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
make sure that he wasn't allowed back into football. | :21:36. | :21:46. | |
The BBC attempted to put the allegations to Bob Higgins on | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
numerous occasions, but we haven't had a response from him. For | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
response from Southampton. A letter was sent in 1989 from the then | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
secretary David Dent warning clubs about Bob Higgins saying that if he | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
tried to get in contact with the clubs, he was at the time starting | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
an academy, that they wanted to know. We don't know the nature of | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
the risk that the Football League were aware of or what they were | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
trying to say, the letter was certainly there and we know about | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
future warnings too. Thank you very much, Richard Conway. | :22:21. | :22:22. | |
He is our sports news correspondent. In 1991 Bob Higgins was charged | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
with six counts of indecent assault against young boys | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
he had been coaching. But he was acquitted | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
on the direction of the judge when the prosecution | :22:33. | :22:34. | |
offered no evidence. He later set up his own school | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
of excellence, called The BBC has repeatedly tried to put | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
those allegations of abuse to Bob Higgins but have not been | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
able to reach him. We can speak now to Billy Seymour, | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
a former Southampton youth player who went on to play for Coventry | :22:52. | :22:53. | |
and Millwall, who says he was groomed and abused | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
by Bob Higgins between the ages He's waived his right | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
to anonymity to speak to us We are going to talk about sexual | :23:00. | :23:10. | |
abuse. If you have got young children around you might not want | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
them to listen in. Thank you very much, Billy. I want to ask you about | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
first of all the claims from the lawyer representing the Off-side | :23:23. | :23:24. | |
Trust who believes that senior figures still working in the game, | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
who have been named as abusers, what do you think about that? Well, | :23:30. | :23:41. | |
astonished really that this can be still happening, you know, I'm just | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
astonished how this could be still going on really. What about claims | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
that other clubs, aside from Chelsea, have paid money so that | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
alleged victims keep quiet? That's, it is sickening really. As | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
you can imagine this is all quite, it has had a snowball effect and I'm | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
thinking about so many things at the minute because it is still pretty | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
raw, I'm just trying to get my head around everything, but I'm sickened. | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
I can't comprehend how they could be doing that. | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
What about this letter that the Football League sent out in 1989, a | :24:24. | :24:31. | |
warning to clubs, about Bob Higgins saying don't, you know, do not get | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
yourselves involved with the Bob Higgins Soccer Academy. Why do you | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
think that wasn't heeded? It is still the same things, the emotions | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
are going around in my mind at the moment that how all these people in | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
these, you know, people of authority, can be doing this and | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
getting away with it really, brushing it under the carpet. I wond | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
whaer it has been like for you for so many decades keeping what | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
happened to you as a boy hidden? Yeah. My life has been chaos really. | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
Over the last 20 years and it has sort of pops its ugly head up and I | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
mean, the drink and the drugs that I've sort of self medicated, been to | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
prison three times for my anger issues, not helping obviously by my | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
drink and drug abuse. Yes, it has just been chaos for everyone | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
involved with me, relationships, my family, sort of in disbelief of the | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
demise of myself really. I've got a real supportive family and loving | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
family, but I went off the rails. Is it clear to you that that is | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
directly led to what you say happened to you as a boy? I think | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
so, yeah. I don't want to make excuses and as I say the drink and | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
drugs have just made it ten times worse, you know, because I've gone | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
along my life and it has been chaos really. I'm just hoping now I can | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
start opening up and start living really. In terms of what happened to | :26:21. | :26:29. | |
you, you were 12 when this began... Yes. Can you tell our audience a | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
little bit of what Bob Higgins did to you? It started really with | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
grooming and preferential treatment, coming round and picking me up and | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
taking me to scouting missions, gifts, tracksuits, after shave, he | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
bought me the same aftershave as him, the journeys to the different | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
centre of excellences around the country. He would make a point of | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
coming to pick me up, it would be late at night. I would be coming | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
back from Harlow and other places. He would put Whitney Houston The | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
Greatest Love Of All and because I was tired because I had to be back | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
for school, lay your head in my lap and he would be stroking my head and | :27:21. | :27:28. | |
I would, that was just when I started things, that was odd to me. | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
This was happening. And he would want me to in the school holidays, | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
football clubs would want you to go and sort of train with them down, he | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
used to live in Southampton, I was living in Reading, he would want me | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
to stay over at his house. Started off really when the first time I was | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
there, I was sat watching TV of an evening after training. There was | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
two older lads staying there. They were from a different part of the | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
country and they were just in shorts, casually and just watched | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
the TV. I was sat on the floor in the armchair watching the TV and all | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
of a sudden the Bob would have the two lads laying cuddling each other | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
and I was just thinking what is going on? Knowing that these two | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
lads would be going back the next day and I was there for four days | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
and I just thought, "Oh my god, this is going to be me." Then when the | :28:32. | :28:39. | |
lads would go their own ways the next day and over the course of the | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
week he would come into the box room where I was staying and sit on the | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
bed. He would walk in late at night and he would come and sit down on | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
the bed stroking my hair and then he would tell me to move up and he | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
would lay on top of the covers and his hands would be going under the | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
covers and touching my groin area and I could see his dressing gown | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
was open and I could see everything and he was touching himself | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
basically. And then other occasions he would call me in in the morning, | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
for some reason his Mrs Would never be around. He this a young boy as | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
well, he would call me into his bedroom and ask me to get into bed | :29:32. | :29:43. | |
and obviously naked. I could feel him behind me. Again touching my | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
groin area. So, yeah, this happened on a number of occasions. On a trip, | :29:51. | :29:59. | |
we went on a trip to Gothenburg. We had to go from Harwich, I stayed | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
overnight, but luckily that was two other lads with me, and nothing | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
happened that night, but there were two teams the A and the B team, the | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
Southampton Youth and everyone was wondering what team you would be in, | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
the older lads the A team obviously and I was summoned to his room, no | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
one knew who was going to be in what squad, everyone was buzzing and he | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
called me into his room and he said Billy, I know you're a couple of | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
years younger, but you're going to be in my A Team with the older lads. | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
You're a special player. I can do real good things for you at this | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
club, the same thing, he just had a shower and he wanted me to sit on | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
his lap. And he would, I was just in my tracksuit and he would be putting | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
his hands down inside my tracksuit. Was there a time when you thought | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
about telling your parents? I nearly did come out with it. On | :31:03. | :31:22. | |
another occasion in his bedroom, I ran out and grabbed my clothes, my | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
tracksuit, and I ran out bare-chested, no shoes on or | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
anything. I remember the red phone box near his house, he said, where | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
are you going? I did not have any money, because I had rushed out. I | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
made a reverse phone call. To my mum and dad. I was crying will stop they | :31:48. | :31:55. | |
said, what's the matter? I said, I am homesick, I just want to come | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
back, I am not feeling good. That is the closest I got. When did you | :32:00. | :32:09. | |
finally tell them what you say happened to you as a boy? I served | :32:10. | :32:21. | |
quite a long prison sentence. Disbelief what was happening and | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
they put it down to me being's drinking to excess and taking drugs. | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
I started to come at them, because it was coming to a head, I was | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
getting into some dangerous situations, so I needed to start | :32:40. | :32:41. | |
off-loading, and that is when it began, in 2011. How did they react? | :32:42. | :32:52. | |
They were in bits, I could tell. Bob used to ridicule my father. That | :32:53. | :33:05. | |
hurt me mentally. In the end he would ridicule him, driving a wedge | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
between me and him, and I was allowing myself to agree with him. | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
Not just the physical stuff, it is the mental stuff, the psychological | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
problems I have had. I have put my family through them as well, I have | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
not given my daughter the emotional support that she needs. It has been | :33:36. | :33:44. | |
horrific. Life has been chaos, and I hope now that I can let it all out | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
and begin living, because I have been living in my own dangerous | :33:52. | :33:59. | |
bubble. I wonder if you feel that as a result of what you say happened to | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
you at that age you have effectively had a ghost of a life? Yes. My mum | :34:06. | :34:13. | |
said that, you are just ghosting through life. Seeing Steve and the | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
other lads come out, it has given me a bit of strength. I know it is a | :34:21. | :34:28. | |
process, but I am ready to fight back now. I want to read some | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
comments from people who are watching. Danny says, this is a | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
really touching interview. Matthew says, incredibly brave, these former | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
footballers to appear on your programme. A snowball effect of | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
alleged abuse through life is shocking. You were a talented young | :34:50. | :34:59. | |
player, you were in the Southampton youth setup, you were selected to go | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
to Lilleshall. Did Bob begins try to stop you from going? Yes. He did not | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
want me to go out all. He was on his knees. At the training ground, it | :35:12. | :35:20. | |
was somewhere where the youth team trained, he was on his knees, | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
crying. Please don't go, this is not good for you. You should stay with | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
me,... Getting their was the start of me, I managed to get released. | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
Once you sign associate schoolboy forms, you are tied to that club, | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
because of the clubs sniff around for stop but going there, it was the | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
best thing that ever happened to me, because my century. -- it was my | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
sanctuary. There was the homesickness, but it was the best | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
place, I felt safe. It so happened Steve was in the same intake. It is | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
funny how things have turned out, we are drawing strength from each | :36:10. | :36:18. | |
other. We go back. Do you think you can start to live now? I am hoping | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
to. My family are so supportive. I feel I am in safe hands now. With | :36:28. | :36:37. | |
the support of your family? Yes. Thank you for talking to us, I | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
really appreciated. I can see how difficult it is for you. | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
And, of course, we've tried to put the allegations to Bob Higgins | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
In 1991 Bob Higgins was acquitted after he'd been charged with six | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
counts of indecent assault against young boys | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
In a statement yesterday Southampton Football Club | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
said they're working with Hampshire Police to investigate | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
any historical allegations that may be brought to light | :37:01. | :37:02. | |
If you have been affected, you can find a list of helplines on our | :37:03. | :37:16. | |
website. Still to come, free | :37:17. | :37:18. | |
speech or extremism? One British Muslim activist | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
is taking the Government to court over its counter-terrorism programme | :37:21. | :37:22. | |
after his views on homosexuality And this is a spit hood - | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
otherwise known as a spit guard - a mesh fabric hood which are legally | :37:26. | :37:38. | |
used by police to protect them from potentially | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
being spat at or bitten. A children's charity says the number | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
of under 17s having it put on their heads in England has | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
tripled in the last year. Annita is in the BBC Newsroom | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
with a summary of the news. The FA has published the terms of | :37:53. | :38:13. | |
reference for its review into allegations of sexual abuse within | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
the game. It said it will fully disclose the review's findings of. | :38:18. | :38:19. | |
Lawyers from the Offside Trust, launched yesterday to support | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
football players who are victims of abuse, say they have | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
evidence of more sex-abuse cover-ups in football. | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
And they say big football figures still in the game are named | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
A study suggests that the regular use of Caesarean sections is having | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth, | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
are now surviving to pass on the genes of their skeletal | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
The Government is to make Network Rail share control of track | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
maintenance in England with the private train-operating | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
companies, in what's being seen as the biggest shake-up of the rail | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling says that Network Rail | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
and the train operators should be able to work together to resolve | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
problems more effectively, but unions have warned that safety | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
Lawyers representing the team leading the legal fight | :39:17. | :39:27. | |
against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy will begin | :39:28. | :39:29. | |
The landmark Supreme Court hearing begins hearing a second day | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
Yesterday, Government lawyers said the ministers had the power | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
The High Court ruled against the Government in November | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
and said Parliament should be consulted first. | :39:40. | :39:47. | |
You can get hourly updates on the BBC News channel all morning | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
and full coverage live this afternoon of the arguments being put | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
forward by lawyers for those who brought the case. | :39:54. | :39:55. | |
You can also catch all of the proceedings live | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
online, with rolling text updates and analysis. | :39:59. | :40:07. | |
That's a summary of the latest BBC News, more at 10am. | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
Thank you for your comments about what Billy Seymour has been | :40:13. | :40:20. | |
describing. Jill says, the poor man reliving the abuse he suffered, he | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
is very brave. Carmen says, I am so sorry this happened. Please tell him | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
he is brave to expose what happened, it is not his fault. Karen, it must | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
be so harrowing to recall the nightmare of what happened, Billy. | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
This week, so brave speaking out, I identify as an abused child with all | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
of those feelings. One person says, brave, a lovely man, I am so glad he | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
realises it was not his fault, I hope people to this behind him, with | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
justice done. If you want to get in touch, you are very welcome. | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
The England coach says Alastair Cook is "up for the fight" and will lead | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
Last month, Cook hinted that he may step down | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
after the current tour of India, but Bayliss says he was surprised | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
by that and the pair are already working | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
Reports in America suggest that Thomas Bjorn will be named | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
Europe have lifted the trophy on the three occasions that | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
He's also been an assistant captain four times. | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
Hull City remain in the Premier League's bottom | :41:29. | :41:30. | |
three after they lost 1-0 at Middlesbrough last night. | :41:31. | :41:32. | |
Gaston Ramirez scored the only goal of the game just | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
And, Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales' | :41:36. | :41:44. | |
Jones won gold in Rio this summer, becoming the first Welsh woman | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
to successfully defend an Olympic title. | :41:51. | :41:52. | |
She also won the European crown earlier in the year. | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
It's the second time she's been given the honour. | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
A key part of the Government's counter-terrorism strategy Prevent | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
is facing a legal challenge for the first time in | :42:08. | :42:09. | |
A British Muslim activist whose controversial views on homosexuality | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
saw him named as a non-violent extremist by the Government. | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
But Salman Butt says that breaches his right to free speech. | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
Our reporter Divya Talwar has been exclusively speaking to him | :42:25. | :42:26. | |
and finding out more about this landmark court challenge. | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
Last year, Dr Salman Butt was named in a government press | :42:33. | :43:01. | |
release about tackling extremism in universities. | :43:02. | :43:03. | |
He was listed as one of six speakers who gave talks on campuses | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
and were known to have views which violate British values - | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
democracy, free speech, equality and the rule of law. | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
That's the Government's own definition of a | :43:16. | :43:17. | |
At first, I thought there must be some other Dr Salman Butt. | :43:18. | :43:25. | |
As the day went on, different newspapers | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
started running the story, one of them had my picture. | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
So, I thought, this is serious, this must be me then. | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
A few weeks later, a Parliamentary question to the Home Office revealed | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
The Home Office said, Dr Salman Butt, who is a chief | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
editor of the web discussion forum Islam In The 21st Century, | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
had used the site to host material violating British values | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
and that he had himself expressed views on the site in social media. | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
Things like appearing to compare homosexuality to paedophilia, | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
He was also accused of speaking alongside the campaign group Cage, | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
and supporting its views on Jihadi John, who the group | :44:10. | :44:11. | |
described as once a kind, beautiful young man. | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
They mentioned a few different accusations. | :44:18. | :44:18. | |
All of them were false except for one, which was, | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
this person shared a platform with Cage one time, a few years ago. | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
Which I don't think is any sign of extremism | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
They said, "He appears to compare homosexuality to paedophilia | :44:31. | :44:45. | |
"He appears to support FGM," or something ridiculous, | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
They just used those links, a few articles I had | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
written for Islam 21C, apparently not having read them. | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
Because I don't see how anyone who read them could have come | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
It's something forbidden, you know, to harm someone, | :45:02. | :45:09. | |
What are your views on homosexuality? | :45:10. | :45:18. | |
Marriage is between a man and a woman. | :45:19. | :45:20. | |
So those things which people engage in, those actions people do | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
which are against some people's religious views, whilst | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
they have the right legally to do those things, we still have a right | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
to at least teach our children and our communities that XYZ is a sin. | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
So you believe that homosexuality is a sin? | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
Can you see how vocalising that could potentially | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
encourage or inspire others to hatred or violence? | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
I mean, anything anyone can say could be used by somebody | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
But I think it would be deeply fallacious to blame the person | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
actually making the view in the first. | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
My view is, if somebody wants to go down that line of argument, | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
then apply it across all faiths and races and ethnicities. | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
So if being against, for example, campaigning against same-sex | :46:17. | :46:18. | |
marriage is some kind of sign of extremism or being un-British, | :46:19. | :46:20. | |
the first people this applies to would be half the people | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
in parliament who voted against, half the Tory party, | :46:27. | :46:37. | |
who voted against the Same-sex Marriage Bill, for example. | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
Dr Salman Butt was a regular speaker at universities, | :46:43. | :46:44. | |
although he says he hasn't had any invitations since he was named | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
a nonviolent extremist by the government. | :46:48. | :46:48. | |
He wants to know why, so he's taking the Home Secretary | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
He is also challenging the Government's controversial Prevent | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
strand of the counterterrorism strategy for the first time. | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
It aims to stop people becoming or supporting terrorists, | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
but Doctor Butt's lawyers argue the Prevent duty is unlawful. | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
Specifically how it has to be implemented in universities. | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
Since last September, UK schools and universities | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
have a new legal duty to engage with the Prevent strategy | :47:17. | :47:18. | |
and try and stop people being drawn into terrorism. | :47:19. | :47:20. | |
The National Union of Students says it creates suspicion | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
London's Brunel University is one of dozens against it. | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
The student union has completely boycotted the Prevent strategy. | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
It refuses to engage with it, and in fact, protests and campaigns | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
There is a real sense of fear and suspicion. | :47:38. | :47:49. | |
And sort of questioning of where the academic freedoms come in, | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
So on campuses, we've got people self-censoring in classrooms. | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
We've got students worried about what websites they can go | :47:57. | :47:58. | |
on, students worried about what they can study. | :47:59. | :48:00. | |
Cutting things out of their dissertations, | :48:01. | :48:02. | |
It's really curtailing the freedom of someone who wants to come | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
There have been occasions where I have been afraid | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
to put my head above the parapet and, sort of, give my opinion | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
on certain things at the risk of being treated as an outcast. | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
Treated as someone that may be suspected of being | :48:23. | :48:24. | |
I mean, when I've been searching for certain things, | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
my friends have been saying to me, be careful, be incognito, | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
because if the university monitor what you're doing, | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
that puts you in a very sort of precarious and vulnerable | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
position where your freedoms may be curtailed. | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
Do you think there's a sense of paranoia | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
I don't think there is a paranoia or oversensitivity, | :48:54. | :49:01. | |
because I personally know of people who have been referred to Prevent | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
over a simple aspect of their own debate, | :49:05. | :49:06. | |
And this was organised by their sixth form debating society. | :49:07. | :49:18. | |
Because they have their own religious beliefs, | :49:19. | :49:20. | |
which I personally believe I share similar practices of Islam to them. | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
For them to be referred to the Prevent officer and get | :49:24. | :49:25. | |
searched, the whole house, his computer, his phones, | :49:26. | :49:27. | |
everything, I don't think there's oversensitivity. | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
I should be cautious, because this happened to my friend. | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
The students I met at Brunel were all familiar with this man's | :49:36. | :49:43. | |
story and used it as an example of why they were on edge | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
Until last year, he was studying a Masters at Staffordshire | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
He was reading this book on terrorism studies | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
in the campus library, part of the course reading list, | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
when he was questioned by a member of staff. | :50:02. | :50:03. | |
Do you think that the three girls who left Bethnal Green | :50:04. | :50:13. | |
in order to join Isis, what do you think of them? | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
The questions became progressively intrusive. | :50:17. | :50:17. | |
I was reading this very page in the book... | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
The staff member was concerned after the conversation and, | :50:22. | :50:23. | |
under the Prevent duty, wanted to flag it up. | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
Security on campus were asked for Mohammed's details. | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
Once he found out what was going on, he launched his own complaint | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
against the university and hired a lawyer. | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
Do you think there was anything that you said that gave the member | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
of staff reason for concern and, rightly so, she then went | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
There was no, "I think, I believe..." | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
It was purely "So and so said" or "It's been said and | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
I followed the academic code to the exact level. | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
But unfortunately that did me no favours. | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
Mohammed's studies were put on hold while the university | :50:58. | :50:59. | |
They apologised but he's decided not to go back. | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
The concerns on the impact of free speech in universities | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
because of the Prevent duty is one of the key things Dr Salman Butt's | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
One of the arguments is that the Prevent | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
It's too broad in the way it defines extremism. | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
And that it's open to subjective interpretation | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
And that it conflicts with the legal duty on universities | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
So there's a direct conflict between the Prevent strategy | :51:33. | :51:45. | |
and the Education Act, which requires universities | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
The Prevent strategy is controversial. | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
There is support for it, though, even among British Muslims. | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
So many will be waiting to see the outcome of this legal challenge. | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
The Home Office said it would be inappropriate to comment | :51:59. | :52:00. | |
What happens if you lose this legal challenge and the courts say, well, | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
actually you are an extremist, a nonviolent extremist? | :52:09. | :52:10. | |
If, at the end of this, somebody like me turns out to be | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
legally defined as an extremist, then what I would campaign | :52:16. | :52:17. | |
for is everyone who holds the same views as myself to likewise be | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
labelled as such, to show how absurd this is. | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
We asked the Home Office for a response. | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
They said it would not be appropriate to comment until legal | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
I have got one comment I want to read on that actually. | :52:34. | :52:45. | |
It is from Gary who says, "I attended Prevent training at work | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
and I found it very useful. It changed my view on what extremists | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
behaviour is. People think this strategy is anti-Islamic. It is not. | :52:55. | :53:01. | |
The training package I went to was about right-wingism and football | :53:02. | :53:02. | |
hooliganism." It's been claimed that up to 40 | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
Conservative MPs could vote against the Prime Minister Theresa May | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
in any Commons debate on whether or not the government | :53:11. | :53:12. | |
should be forced to reveal its plans Let's talk to Norman. Explain what | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
the Labour-led motion is calling for? The top line is Theresa May | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
could be facing her first Commons defeat on Brexit. It would be her | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
first defeat since she became Prime Minister. There is a sense of when | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
the cat is away, the mice will play because Mrs May is in the Gulf. We | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
have got pictures of her talking to British service personnel out in | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
Bahrain, actually wishing them a merry Christmas. It looks sunny, and | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
not a very Christmassy scene. However, when she is away, Labour | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
have tabled a motion saying that she should publish a document setting | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
out a Brexit plans, in other words, telling everyone what it is she is | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
trying to do, not giving the nitty-gritty of her negotiating | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
strategy, but the big picture, what she is going to do about the single | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
market and what she is going to do about freedom of movement, there | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
could be 20 and maybe up to 40, it is claimed, Tory MPs, who might | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
support Labour. Now, if that happened, Mrs May, tomorrow would be | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
heading as I say for her first Commons defeat and what's added a | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
little twist to it, there are signs even some Brexiteers might want Mrs | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
May want to publish her plans. They have been getting edgy because she | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
has been suggesting we might keep paying in to make sure we stay in | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
the single market. Listen to Philip Hammond. | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
What we've said is we want to keep as many options open as possible | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
so we go into these negotiation with as much flexibility | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
as possible recognising that they will be complex, | :55:01. | :55:02. | |
they will be lengthy and we want to be able to negotiate | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
in good faith with our European partners to see if we can find a way | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
of working together in the future that benefits both sides. | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
So, will Mrs May come up with some sort of compromise to get round this | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
possible defeat? Will there be some sort of plan published? I think not | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
because she made very clear that if she does that, she fears she might | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
show her negotiating hand to other EU leaders. More than that, she made | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
it almost part of her leadership that she is not going to be pushed | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
around by Parliament or the media or judges when it comes to Brexit. Her | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
view is the people have spoken, she will deliver, but what that means is | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
she could, as I say, be facing her first defeat tomorrow and it would | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
be not just embarrassing because it is about Brexit, it would also | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
underline the tensions in her own party and it would be personal as I | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
say, because she made such a thing of not giving ground to anyone else | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
when it comes to Brexit. Cheers Norman, thank you. | :56:10. | :56:22. | |
It is Supreme Court | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
It is day two of the Supreme Court hearing. | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
James Corden has had everyone from Beyonce, | :56:33. | :56:34. | |
Adele and One director to the first lady Michelle Obama in his car, | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
but now it's time for the best selling female artist of all time. | :56:38. | :56:46. | |
Thank you so much for showing me around the city. I don't know New | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
York that well. Do you mind if we listen to some | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
music? Would that be OK? Snide don't like riding around in a car unless | :57:01. | :57:02. | |
there is music. What was a night out with Michael | :57:03. | :57:21. | |
Jackson or a night in? So you want me to kiss and tell? Did you kiss? | :57:22. | :57:32. | |
We will bring you more when it goes live. | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
Let's get the latest weather update with Carol. | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
This morning it was cold at 5am, there was a 20 Celsius temperature | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
difference between the north and south of the country. We had frost | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
and minus nine Celsius in Aviemore and we had cloud and we had a | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
temperature of 11 Celsius in Plymouth. Now, the fog that we've | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
had is still very much with us, particularly across England, | :58:01. | :58:02. | |
particularly around Gloucestershire for example, the Midlands, into East | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
Anglia, Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Some of that is still dense, but | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
slowly today, it will lift up into low cloud. You can see from the | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
spacing on the isobars, there is not much wind to clear it away. We have | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
got a set of weather fronts coming in from the west. They are | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
introducing rain and strengthening winds and the rain has been pushing | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
across Northern Ireland and in through parts of Western Scotland. | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
But for the rest of the UK, it is mostly dry. So as we go through the | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
morning, the wind will strengthen in the west, the rain will continue to | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
advance and the fog will lift into low cloud. There will be some breaks | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
the we have got frost around where temperatures are low and that's | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
where we are looking at sunny spells. But even in the sunshine, it | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
will feel cold. So here is the rain this afternoon across Northern | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
Ireland, it will be windy as well. The rain continuing across northern | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
and Western Scotland accompanied by the wind. Some brighter skies across | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
north-east Scotland, but look at the temperature in abdaornings only six | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
SS. Four Celsius in Edinburgh, five in Glasgow. As we push south across | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
England, there will be a lot of cloud. There will be one or two | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
sunnier breaks. Wherever you are, it will feel cold. Come into the south | :59:15. | :59:21. | |
and the south-west, here temperatures are already 11 Celsius. | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
It is a similar story for Wales. Cloudy afternoon. Temperatures up to | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
11 Celsius. As we go through the day and the rain advances eastwards, the | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
temperatures will rise and they will rise by night as well. So a wet | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
night across Scotland and for a time Northern Ireland. We are looking at | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
a high today of five Celsius in Glasgow and tonight it will be 12 | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
Celsius. We have got more fog reforming across the South East. We | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
don't expect it to be as widespread or as dense as the fog we saw this | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
morning. Tomorrow, it will be frost-free across the UK. The first | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
time we have seen seen that since 15th November. Our weather front | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
will push to push across western parts of Wales and the south-west. | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
But equally there will be sunshine. Temperatures could hit 16 Celsius | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
around the Moray Firth and north-east England and north-east | :00:13. | :00:12. | |
Wales. Hello, it's Tuesday, just | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
after 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. This morning, more damning | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
allegations over abuse in football, including claims of more cover-ups | :00:21. | :00:22. | |
and that people still involved in the game have | :00:23. | :00:24. | |
been involved in abuse. It was probably worse in the old | :00:25. | :00:34. | |
days, but the problems still persist. There could still be people | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
within football and other sports who were either complicit or were | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
engaging in this activity? Yes. We heard from a former Southampton | :00:42. | :00:50. | |
youth player who said he was abused by his former coach for two years as | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
a boy. It has been horrific. Life has been | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
chaos, and I am hoping now that I can let it all out and begin living, | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
because I have just been living in my own dangerous bubble. | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
You can watch the full interview again on our programme page. | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
Later, we will speak to family members about the impact the | :01:19. | :01:19. | |
revelations have had on them. A children's charity says | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
spit hoods, otherwise known as spit guards, | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
are being increasingly used They say the numbers in England have | :01:26. | :01:27. | |
tripled over the last year. We will hear from charity and from | :01:28. | :01:38. | |
the police, who say such guards are vital. | :01:39. | :01:39. | |
Could the routine use of caesarean section be having | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
Scientists claim the surgery is enabling women with a narrow | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
pelvic opening to survive childbirth and pass their genes | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news. | :01:48. | :02:02. | |
In the last hour, the Football Association has | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
published the terms of reference for its review into allegations | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
of sexual abuse within the game, and said it will fully disclose | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
Meanwhile, lawyers from the Offside Trust, | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
launched yesterday to support football players who are victims | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
And they say big football figures still in the game are named | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Our correspondent gave Victoria and update. | :02:31. | :02:43. | |
The scale is clear, there are over 20 police force is looking into | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
allegations that have been made, 55 clubs are involved, at all levels, | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
from very senior through to non-league. Over 350 survivors have | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
reported their claims to the authorities over the past week. But | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
those of figures that are days old, we are waiting for updates, people | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
are still finding the courage to come forward and tell their stories. | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
A study suggests that the regular use of caesarean sections is having | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth, | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
are now surviving, to pass on the genes of their skeletal | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
A key part of the Government's counterterrorism strategy Prevent is | :03:25. | :03:41. | |
challenged in the High Court. The Home Office says it plays a key | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
role, but a British Muslim activist named as a non-violent extremists | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
will argue that the strategy breaches his right to free speech. | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
Some of the world's biggest tech companies are teaming up to prevent | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
extremist material being shared online. They will share details of | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
images and videos they remove from their sites to stop the material | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
cropping up elsewhere. Lawyers representing the team | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
leading the legal fight against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
begin making their case later. The hearing begins hearing a second day | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
of evidence this morning. Yesterday Government lawyers said ministers | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
had the power to trigger article 50. The High Court ruled against the | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
Government in November and said Parliament should be consulted | :04:31. | :04:32. | |
first. You can get hourly updates on the | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
BBC News Channel all morning and full coverage live from inside the | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
Supreme Court this afternoon of the arguments being put forward by | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
lawyers for those who brought the case. You can catch the proceedings | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
live online with rolling text updates and analysis. | :04:49. | :04:57. | |
Nigel Farage has been short listed by Time magazine for its Person of | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
the year award. The magazine says his role in helping bring about | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
Brexit started a global populist wave against the political | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
establishment. Others on the short list of people deemed to have most | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
influenced the news include Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Turkey's | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
president began and Beyonce. That's a summary of the latest BBC | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
News, more at 10:30am. Thank you for your comments about | :05:23. | :05:31. | |
Billy Seymour, on the programme earlier, he played for Coventry and | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
Millwall, he was talking about the abuse he experienced as a young boy | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
between the ages of 12 and 14. Steve Walters, who we spoke to, sweet, so | :05:41. | :05:49. | |
proud of you, we will catch up soon. Terry says, the interview with Billy | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
Seymour reduced me to tears and triggered memories and the enduring | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
pain and shame. One person says, very painful to watch, but a serious | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
eye opener. Ian says, a tough but compelling watch. A courageous man, | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
courageous men, all of them. Victor says, easier to understand the | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
horrific effects of sexual abuse. Angela says, heartbreaking, watching | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
the interviews, mentally and physically destroying these young | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
boys is awful beyond words. One more for now, the interview today shows | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
the long-term impact of sexual abuse so clearly. Thank you for those. | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
Do get in touch with us throughout the morning. | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
If you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate. | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Alastair Cook had suggested the series in India could be his last as | :06:43. | :06:52. | |
captain. The England coach says Alastair Cook | :06:53. | :06:53. | |
is "up for the fight" and will lead Last month, Cook hinted | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
that he may step down after the current tour of India, | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
but Bayliss says he was surprised by that and the pair | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
are already working Sometimes little comments are made | :07:04. | :07:14. | |
and they get blown out of proportion. He is up for the fight. | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
Like everybody else, he is disappointed with the results over | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
here. In the end, national players want to win, they are professional | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
players. A bit of disappointment there. But we are heading in the | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
right direction. Reports in America suggest that | :07:38. | :07:38. | |
Thomas Bjorn is to be named the European Ryder Cup | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
captain for 2018. Europe won the cup in all three | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
contests where Bjorn He's also been an assistant | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
captain four times. Hull City remain in | :07:46. | :07:53. | |
the Premier League's bottom three after they lost 1-0 | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
at Middlesbrough last night. Gaston Ramirez scored the only | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
goal of the game just Manchester City and Chelsea | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
have been charged by the Football Association for failing | :08:01. | :08:10. | |
to control their players during There was a mass brawl at the end | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
of the match at the Etihad, Sergio Aguero has already | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
been banned for four matches for his part in it, | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
although he's available Brazilian club Chapecoense have been | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
awarded the Copa Sudamericana, following the plane crash that | :08:26. | :08:33. | |
killed 19 of their players. They were on their way | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
to the first leg of the final against Atletico Nacional | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
when their plane went down. Nacional asked for Chapecoense | :08:43. | :08:44. | |
to be given the title, and they've received a fair-play | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
award to acknowledge the gesture. Olympic taekwondo champion | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales' Jones won gold in Rio this summer, | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
becoming the first Welsh woman to successfully defend | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
an Olympic title. She also won the European crown | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
earlier in the year. It's the second time she's | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
been given the honour. And, remember England going out | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
to Iceland at the Euros? It seemed everyone | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
was talking about it. It was the most tweeted-about | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
sporting moment on 128,000 tweets per minute, | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
21,000 more than when Embarrassment for England gets | :09:26. | :09:35. | |
people talking. You wondered why he had | :09:36. | :09:53. | |
these problems, and now "He couldn't even | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
look me in the eye. The words of family members of some | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
of the footballers we've spoken to on this programme over | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
the last few weeks. The impact of years of abuse | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
on those young footballers has been evident in many of the interviews | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
you've seen on the programme But how does that abuse | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
affect family members, mothers, partners, siblings, | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
who also live with the legacy? Billy Seymour says he was abused | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
by his coach at Southampton. He told us in the last hour how | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
it had affected them. I served quite a long prison | :10:32. | :10:49. | |
sentence. Disbelief at what was happening, they put it down to be | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
being... Drinking to excess and taking drugs. I started to come at | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
them, because it was coming to a head, I was getting into some | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
dangerous situations, so I needed to start off-loading. That is when it | :11:07. | :11:07. | |
began, in 2011. How did they react? They were in bits. I could tell. Bob | :11:08. | :11:26. | |
used to ridicule my father, that hurt me mentally. In the end, he | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
would ridicule him, driving a wedge between me and my father. In a way, | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
the mental stuff, I was allowing myself to agree with him. It is not | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
just the physical stuff, it is the mental stuff, the psychological | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
problems I have had. I have put my family through them as well. My | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
daughter, I have not given her the emotional support that she needs. It | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
has been horrific. Life has been chaos, and I am hoping now that I | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
can let it all out and begin living, because I have been living in my own | :12:16. | :12:17. | |
bubble, dangerous bubble. This morning we can speak to two | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
relatives who're talking for the first time about the impact | :12:21. | :12:22. | |
it's had on them. Matt Monaghan was signed | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
to Manchester United under Alex Ferguson, | :12:26. | :12:26. | |
but years earlier he says he was abused whilst at another | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
club, which we're not naming And you may remember we spoke | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
to David Eatock last week. He says he was groomed | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
by George Ormond whilst His twin brother | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Paul is with us now. David, I introduce you to Denise, | :12:45. | :13:11. | |
and Denise to David. What did you think about what David told you? | :13:12. | :13:24. | |
Shock. He told me loosely, but I discovered the extent of the abuse, | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
which was difficult reading, last week. And being on your show. He | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
told you just that their details a couple of years ago? Yes, very | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
loosely. He was more open to his wife, who has been very supportive. | :13:41. | :13:48. | |
I had found out the majority of the abuse in further detail from your | :13:49. | :13:57. | |
show. How far would you into your relationship with Matthew when he | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
decided to tell you? It was about six months in. How did it come out? | :14:01. | :14:10. | |
He woke me up in the middle of the night. He was heartbroken. He said, | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
I have got something to tell you. He said, when you get up in the morning | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
comedy will not see me again. He could not look me in the eye. He was | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
really upset, he told me what had happened. Not in great detail, but | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
he said, this is why I act the way I do. He was broken. I wonder what | :14:34. | :14:43. | |
prompted him then. He should have been coming to mind in November for | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
a bonfire night, and he could not turn up, I could not get hold of him | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
for three or four nights, and when I did, I said, I cannot deal with | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
this, I am not cut out with this. He was like, I will bring you tomorrow. | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
He went to speak to his mum, she said, you are going to have to tell | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
her. She does not realise why you are acting in this way. That is why | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
he stays in the pub sometimes and he does a lot of betting. | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
I wonder if there were behaviours of Dave's over the years which were | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
different to the way you behaved? Yes, definitely. When Dave was | :15:29. | :15:36. | |
released from Newcastle by Kenny Dalglish in 1998, subsequently the | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
last 28 years of his life, he was a shell of the person what I knew when | :15:40. | :15:48. | |
he went there suffering from agoraphobia, depression, OCD, it is | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
easier to accept the way he has behaved now that everything has come | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
to light and we can understand off other people's experiences that he | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
is not on his own and there is a lot of people out there who has gone | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
through a similar kind of abuse and the subsequent emotions. So things, | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
things sort of make more sense now that you know? Yeah, definitely. | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
Definitely. Denise, you're nodding in agreement. Does that ring a bell | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
with you? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You know now why Matthew behaves the | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
way he does sometimes. You've got more time for it really. What is the | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
impact on you then, Denise as his partner? Well, some days he doesn't | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
want to get out of bed. Some days he just wants to go to the pub and | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
forget about everybody. It is really hard. It is hard watching him, you | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
know, the way he is, it is a shame because he just can't get on with | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
his life and you know he also says, "I feel really sorry for you. You | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
shouldn't be going through this. You suffer too." He has bad days and I | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
have bad days over it, but it is just being there for support with | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
him and that's all you can do really. | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
And what about you Paul, the impact on you and the wider family? They | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
have missed some family events. Daughter's birthdays and things like | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
that where he has not been able to either leave the house or feel | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
comfortable enough to attend such events. I think now that this has | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
come out, we can obviously, like Denise said, you're there for them | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
anyway and you can show support, now you can actually show the full | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
support because you can appreciate exactly what he has been through | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
which is, it is pretty horrific. You don't intend to see your brother | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
achieve his life long ambition of being a professional at Newcastle | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
United and three years of subsequent abuse and returning him back to our | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
family a shell of the person he went as. When you think about the future, | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
Denise, you and Matthew in your relationship together and you've got | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
children from previous relationships, how do you view it? | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
Yeah, all the children live with us and it is difficult for them too. | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
Matthew has off days and you know, he doesn't turn up to things like | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
some funerals he hasn't turned up to. Restaurants where he just has to | :18:24. | :18:32. | |
get up and go and sit on the pavement outside. Yes, so it affects | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
all of us and you know the children, you've only just found out since it | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
come to light last week really with the children. So they have been very | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
supportive. How proud are you Paul, of your brother? Yes, extremely | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
proud. Not just of David, Andy Woodward, set off the trend if you | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
like, he was unbelievable, watching that. I played in the same team as | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
David with Andy Woodward so when it's something you can connect with | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
and another individual who you know, you know, it gives you the strength | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
and the courage to come forward and the truth is we've, we were living | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
the after marks of this, we're the victims, but we should be walking | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
around with our heads held high and you know the abusers should be the | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
ones who is hiding away and not having the courage to come out. | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
Denise, how proud are you of Matthew? Oh, really proud. Really | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
proud, yeah and the kids are too. You know, as they say, there is no | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
shame in it. Hold your head up high and you know this is, I think, this | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
is Matthew's therapy now and you know, so you can deal with it a lot | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
more. He held this, you know, on his shoulders for many, many years on | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
his own now. Well, he has got all his family and his friends behind | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
him so this is the way forward for Matthew now. An e-mail from Elaine | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
saying, "It is good to hear the views of the families of the victims | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
of abuse. Both my children were abused in the 80s, but no one ever | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
considers how the parents feel. Thank you for talking about this | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
because we all suffer." Yes. Would you echo that Denise? Definitely. | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
You send your children to, you know, football clubs and you know dance | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
classes and you expect them to be safe and you know, you can beat | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
yourself up over it, but we weren't to know, you know, that monster was | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
out there. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Denise, | :20:47. | :20:55. | |
thank you. Denise and Paul, I called you David, sorry. You'll forgive me, | :20:56. | :21:05. | |
won't you? Yeah. News from the QPR website and it is regarding | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
historical algags of sexual abuse. QPR have been made aware of the | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
historical allegations made against a former club employee relate to go | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
child abuse in football. The club takes the allegation seriously and | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
will co-operate fully in any forthcoming investigation. Any form | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
of abuse has no place in football or society. QPR go on, "QPR has robust | :21:27. | :21:39. | |
recruitment procedures. We employ a full-time designated safeguarding | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
manager who works across all areas of the club. In line with the FA, | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
Premier League and Football League guidelines we have had someone | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
responsible for safeguarding in place since 2011." If you have been | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
affected by anything we have been discussing this morning, you can | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
find a list of helplines at the BBC Actionline. | :22:03. | :22:12. | |
If you want to watch live coverage of the four-day Supreme Court case | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
over the Government's approach to triggering Brexit, you can watch | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
it on the BBC News website, by going to: bbc.co.uk/Brexit | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
This is a spit hood, otherwise known as a spit guard, | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
described by civil liberties groups as "a primitive, cruel | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
and degrading tool that inspires fear and anguish". | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
The mesh fabric hoods are legally used by police and placed over | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
the heads of suspects to protect police officers from potentially | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
Now a children's charity says the number of under-17s having it | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
put on their heads in England has tripled in the last | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
Though they say the true number could be even higher. | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
This is one mother's short account of how her daughter, then aged 11, | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
They had her under each arm and she had a spit hood | :23:08. | :23:21. | |
over her head and leg and ankle restraints on and her | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
And she had no, like, fight left in her anymore | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
and they were literally dragging her with no shoes on. | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
That must have been very upsetting to see? | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
Here's an example of a spit hood being used | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Let's talk to Shamik Daunt who is a lawyer that works | :23:44. | :24:18. | |
with the Charity Inquest and Che Donald who is from | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
the Police Federation and is a serving police officer. | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
Tell us why you're against the use of spit hoods, spit guards? I think | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
we need to be clear that the use of these implements is both barbaric | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
and it is unnecessary. Why? It is barbaric because of the real risk it | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
places to a child in particular, physical health and their mental | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
health and also the fact that it places that child in unacceptable | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
risk of serious injury or loss of life. It is unnecessary because | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
there are many other forms of restraint that are available to a | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
police officer and it is probably for that reason that the vast | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
majority or the majority of police forces in England and Wales don't | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
use these devices. How does a spit guard lead to a loss of life? The | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
main problem that I can see is that these devices are used in | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
conjunction with other forms of restraint. Certain force policies | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
say they can only be used once somebody is handcuffed. If somebody | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
is handcuffed and held face down there is a risk of asphyxia. When | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
that happens, it is difficult for a police officer to quickly respond | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
and to identify that the individual being restrained is suffering that | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
risk if there is a spit hood over their head. There are numerous | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
examples around the world. OK, do you accept that? No. Ironically. It | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
does seem to make logical sense, if your arms are behind your back and | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
you're face down and you've got a spit hood on, there is a chance of | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
positional asphyxia? I would say that application of a spit guard | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
reduces that risk because if the spit guard isn't there, you're | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
having to physically manhandle someone to prevent their face coming | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
into your clear direction or that of your colleagues to prevent the | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
spitting from taking place. If they are restrained in a horizontal | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
position on the ground with the guard on, there is no pressure to | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
them, the positional asphyxia risk is significantly reduced and it | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
looks after the welfare of not only the person on the floor, but also | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
the officers that are having to deal with that person. The other thing | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
that I would also mention is, we spoke about children. We're talking | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
about lack of a spit guard will mean physical force on a child to direct | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
and push their head away from coming into contact. You don't have one. I | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
do. Let's have a look. Snoot guard I've got here is identical to the | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
guard you had in the video. A lot of the concern is that the guard is, | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
you can't see what's happening to the person's face when they are in. | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
And I'm happy to put this on. Please. You can have a look and see | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
exactly where my face is. I'm talking. I'm not restricted. My | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
breathing isn't laboured. I've worn this in training. It doesn't labour | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
your breathing. The other models that are available, don't have the | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
plastic sheeting in front, it is the meshing, but what happens within the | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
media. Can I take this off? I'm happy to continue doing the | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
interview with it on to be honest, it doesn't bother me. Keep it on for | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
a second. Sure. If you were lying face down and struggling with a | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
until of officers who were trying to arrest you and you were having | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
handcuffs on the back, there is limited capability for you to move | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
your head, isn't there? Without a doubt, but it depends how violently | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
that person is struggling. We have got to remember in order to get that | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
person from the ground to the floor, and transport them, we are going to | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
be going near to their face, pucking them up, sitting with a suspect in a | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
vehicle, we are going to be observing them at all times and be | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
in close proximity to their face. You can clearly see that you can | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
breathe through that. Breathing is not necessarily the issue. The issue | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
is that it is very different putting on one of these hoods in the | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
relative serenity of a television studio as compared to as you say... | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
If breathe something not the I shall urks what is it then? Breathing is | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
an issue. Asphyxia is suffocating? Yes. That would happen without a | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
spit guard? It would, but it would be more difficult to see that | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
happening and to respond quickly enough with a spit hood being put | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
on. But if the individual was in trouble, they would be speaking, you | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
would hear it? Well, no, because you're suffocating. Do you accept | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
that? It is more difficult to see your face when that is on? Part of | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
the training that officers receive in the use of spit guards is that | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
they are taught to observe the person at all times. Of course, but | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
it is harder to see when that's on your face. I appreciate that, but | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
officers are monitoring someone when they are wearing one or not wearing | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
one as closely as possible and officers are acutely aware of | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
positional asphyxia, particularly around the positioning of limbs on | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
people who have been detained to prevent this specific purpose and we | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
try where possible to keep people on the ground for the least amount of | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
time to prevent this. There are lots of caveats, if possible, we're | :29:37. | :29:38. | |
trained to observe as much as possible. You can see how something | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
might go wrong? I appreciate that. But we've got to remember as well, | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
officers are out there, trying to restrain someone... But... Who is | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
violently struggling. No. No, I accept that and everybody knows | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
that, but it is whether it is morally right to use it on someone | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
who is under 17? I wouldn't have a problem using it on someone under | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
17. Throughout my service, I have been spat at probably five times and | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
four of those times were people under 17 and one of those times was | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
a female. So, the risk facing me of being assaulted and let's not | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
forget, spitting is an assault and we are spitting at police officers | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
and that makes it an assault on society as far as I'm concerned. | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
Officers don't come into work to be treated in that way, I'm sure you | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
wouldn't want to be spat in your face. The idea behind the guard, on | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
the majority of cases they are only applied once the person has spat. | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
Not all of them. Why not? I gave an example. I had a suspect in a van | :30:44. | :30:56. | |
with me and the suspect said, as soon as I get out, I will spit in | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
your face, and I said, I have now been made aware of his intentions, | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
and he started clearing the throat so he was able to get enough phlegm | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
in his mouth to do that. I will show the clip again of the person who had | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
a spit God put on them, it looks like it is on the Underground. It's | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
a different atmosphere, have a look at this. | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
He is my boyfriend, 18 years old. Keep moving, please. | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
Please, please, please. What the hell are you doing? Stop that. Stop | :31:37. | :31:46. | |
it. Does that look barbaric? No. Having | :31:47. | :31:55. | |
dealt with a number of incidents myself, it is easy to watch five | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
seconds of footage and make a judgment. We need to know more about | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
the situation, what information the officers were given, why they were | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
responding, what the threat was perceived, and there are a number of | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
questions. That case is live, subject to an investigation, so it | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
would be improper for me to comment. What would you suggest instead of | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
one of these herbs to protect officers from being spat at? There | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
are other restraints that officers have. Forms of Holt, holding | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
somebody in a way that is safe. It does not stop them spitting. It | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
stops them suffering the spit, because of where they are standing. | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
Let's take this. There is a risk that a suspect may head-butt | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
somebody, but nobody suggests they should have neck braces. It is the | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
same thing, there are restraints available, they can use reasonable | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
force Intel defence or defence of others. These codes are not | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
reasonable. It is not reasonable on a child. The police officer will be | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
well built, fully trained in self defence, a child is not. That | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
disparity in size is concerning. Even if we are not talking about | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
children, police officers have a range of options available to them, | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
and that is why the majority of forces do not roll these out. They | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
are dangerous, barbaric and cruel. I disagree entirely. The assumption | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
that police officers are big and burly draws the same assumption that | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
all surgeons are men. 28% of the police force is female, the majority | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
of the time it will be females having to deal with a burly | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
17-year-old male. We so have a number of officers involved in a | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
restrained. We are employing more physical restraint. We are talking | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
about ensuring somebody is safely transported from the point of arrest | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
to the point of custody. No police officer was the death of a child on | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
their hands. No child deserves to be treated... I don't understand why | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
the Police Federation is lobbying for something that places its | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
members at that risk. We don't think that is the case. What places | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
members at risk is going to work and being assaulted. In the Metropolitan | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
last year, 900 officers were spat at. That is a hell of a lot. If we | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
extrapolate those numbers nationally, we are looking at seven | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
officers being assaulted by spitting a day, 40 why any other means. We | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
are out there to protect our officers, if we don't, we will not | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
have people looking after the members of the public. Let me read | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
some messages. Johnny says, I am a serving police Sergeant, whilst I | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
don't know the figures, there has been a big increase in the number of | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
all ages spitting at and into the faces of police officers. The only | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
other option is a physical hold and restraint on the head of the person | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
who is spitting, which can cause injury to the detainee and the | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
officers. The hood is the best way of stopping individuals spitting at | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
those trying to protect the community. Essentially, the hold | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
will be used anyway. There is no dispute about that. These hoods are | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
used in conjunction. Other forms of restraint or proportionate, the | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
juice of a hood in addition places that Persian at unacceptable risk of | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
death or serious injury. Another one, as a former officer, I was | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
handcuffed to the prison for several hours, the prisoners spat at me | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
repeatedly. I wish in that case I had had a hood. Ian said, who knew | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
the officers were experts in asphyxiation? The police should not | :36:02. | :36:12. | |
have to put up with this. Anna says, hoods barbaric and unnecessary. | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
Gordon says, spitting is the most reports of thing for somebody to do, | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
it seems to be on the increase, we need to ensure we do not tolerated. | :36:21. | :36:21. | |
Thank you. Still to come, could the routine use | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
of caesarean section be having Scientists claim the surgery | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
is enabling women with a narrow pelvic opening to survive childbirth | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
and pass their genes Lady Gaga has revealed she suffers | :36:37. | :36:38. | |
from post-traumatic stress disorder We'll be speaking to our | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
entertainment reporter. With the news, here's Annita | :36:42. | :36:51. | |
in the BBC Newsroom. Another football club has confirmed | :36:52. | :37:03. | |
it is looking into child abuse claims about one of its employees. | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
QPR will cooperate in any investigation. | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
Meanwhile, lawyers from the Offside Trust, | :37:12. | :37:12. | |
launched yesterday to support football players who are victims | :37:13. | :37:14. | |
of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
And they say big football figures still in the game are named | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
A study suggests that the regular use of caesarean sections is having | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth, | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
are now surviving to pass on the genes of their skeletal | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
The Government is to make Network Rail share control of track | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
maintenance in England with the private train-operating | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
companies, in what's being seen as the biggest shakeup of the rail | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling says that Network Rail | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
and the train operators should be able to work together to resolve | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
problems more effectively, but unions have warned that safety | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
Lawyers representing the team leading the legal fight | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy will begin | :38:12. | :38:13. | |
The landmark Supreme Court hearing begins hearing a second day | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
Yesterday, Government lawyers said the ministers had the power | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
The High Court ruled against the Government in November | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
and said Parliament should be consulted first. | :38:28. | :38:36. | |
The England coach Trevor Bayliss says Alastair Cook is "up | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
for the fight" and will continue to lead England as Test captain | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
Last month, Cook hinted that he may step down after the current tour | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
of India but Bayliss says he was surprised by that | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
and the pair are already working towards the trip to Australia. | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
Reports in America suggest that Thomas Bjorn will be named | :38:56. | :38:57. | |
Europe have lifted the trophy on the three occasions that | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
He's also been an assistant captain four times. | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
Hull City remain in the Premier League's bottom | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
three after they lost 1-0 at Middlesbrough last night. | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
Gaston Ramirez scored the only goal of the game just | :39:12. | :39:13. | |
And, Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales' | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
Jones won gold in Rio this summer, becoming the first Welsh woman | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
to successfully defend an Olympic title. | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
She also won the European crown earlier in the year. | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
It's the second time she's been given the honour. | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
The most important constitutional case in decades is being debated | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
The Government wants the right to launch the process of leaving | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
the European Union and triggering Brexit without a parliamentary vote. | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
Today is the second of four days of debate, with the decision | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
It's been described by one leading Breixteer, Iain Duncan Smith, | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
as "like watching paint dry", but let's watch a little of it. | :40:01. | :40:12. | |
Parliament's choice as to how to give its permission and the extent | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
to which it wants to get involved. If you do the contrast in terms of | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
symmetry between then and now, it might be thought that the giving of | :40:21. | :40:30. | |
article 50 was by primary legislation, the 2015 act. We submit | :40:31. | :40:39. | |
there is real symmetry there. Does that not beg the question as to | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
whether the 2015 act expected Parliamentary consideration of the | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
position in the light of the results of the referendum? On any view, the | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
2015 act... My case is the 2015 act involved Parliament deciding to put | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
the final decision to the people, the in/ out question, and we submit | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
that whether it said things or did not say things, it still carries | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
real constitutional significance as having been passed at a point in | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
time when they knew full well that the only way of achieving one of the | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
things, one of the possibilities on the binary question, was to give | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
article 50 notice. That was the only way in which withdrawal could be | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
affected. You had to take a step on the international plane. You would | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
have to give article 50 notice, that is the mandated process. The | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
referendum does not say anything about when the notice should be | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
given. No, and it might be thought not to do so deliberately, that is | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
one of the paragon of decisions which would involve the exercise of | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
expert and experienced judgment from those who would thereafter have the | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
courage of the negotiations. That is the political debate that has been | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
raging for the last few weeks and months. Is it realistic to regard an | :42:04. | :42:11. | |
Article 50 notice as an entirely limited notification that the UK is | :42:12. | :42:21. | |
going to withdraw? Because the scheme of Article 50 contemplates | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
that that will lead to the very least a framework agreement as to | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
the future. Is it realistic to suppose that the notice will give no | :42:33. | :42:41. | |
clue as to what the nature of the direction intended is, what the | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
nature of the agreement wished for his? It will not delve into what the | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
possible agreement might look like, it won't delve into how the | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
Government might choose to negotiate. All parties are | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
proceeding... It will just comply with article 50. And everything else | :43:03. | :43:10. | |
occurs subsequently? Yes. That flows into the point that is made on the | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
other side, which is to accept that if the supreme court decides against | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
it, the solution is a one line act. If you want to continue | :43:22. | :43:23. | |
watching that, switch to the BBC News channel, | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
or you can find it The chief Brexit negotiator is | :43:26. | :43:38. | |
speaking live in Brussels, he has already said the work will be | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
legally compensated and politically sensitive. | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
TRANSLATION: The ECB, the European investment bank, Europol and the | :43:51. | :44:00. | |
European Court of Justice. I will be meeting those in charge of the | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
committee of the regions and the European economic and social | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
committee in the next few weeks. For all of these reasons, I am sure that | :44:10. | :44:22. | |
when the European union receives notification from the UK, it will be | :44:23. | :44:31. | |
ready. Time will be short. It is clear that a period for actual | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
negotiations will be shorter than two years. At the beginning, the two | :44:37. | :44:45. | |
years includes time for the European Council to set guidelines. For the | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
Council to authorise negotiations based on the recommendation of the | :44:52. | :45:00. | |
commission of what article 50 says. At the end, the agreement must be | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
approved by the Council and European Parliament, finally the UK will have | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
to approve the agreement. All within the two-year period. | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
He is the European Commission's chief Brexit negotiator. | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
We speak to Fiona De Londras, Professor of global legal studies | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
at Birmingham Law School and an expert in constitutional | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
and European law, and Chantal-Aimee Doerries QC, | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
chairman of the Bar Council, head of all barristers | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
What are they debating? The central case that the Government is arguing | :45:33. | :45:50. | |
that it is entitled to trigger Article 50 to take the UK out of the | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
European Union and various citizens, two citizens, started proceedings | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
arguing that this is a matter for Parliament. In other words | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
Parliament has to decide whether or not to trigger Article 50. The real | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
issue around this is the scope of the royal prerogative which is | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
normally an issue that deals with Foreign Affairs and so the question | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
here is, where we're looking at a treaty, Article 50 arises in | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
relation to a treaty, is there something the executive or the Prime | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
Minister can act on or does she in fact need Parliament to have a | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
debate and an Act to allow her to do that? Domestic rights came in | :46:29. | :46:37. | |
through the European Communities Act. Why is that relevant and why | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
might it be a problem for the Government? Well, the relevance | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
according to the people who are trying to ensure there would be | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
Parliamentary consent is to say that the European Union is not just any | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
international organisation, the treaties here are not just any other | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
set of treaties because of their domestic effect, it would be | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
necessary for Parliament to be the entity that would consent to | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
beginning this process which it is said will inevitably lead to the | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
loss of these rights which are properly seen as domestic as well as | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
international. OK. I mean, under our constitution | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
Parliament is the one that's sovereign and has to pass | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
legislation, but it is the Government that's in charge with the | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
foreign treaties, isn't leaving the EU a foreign treaty? That's the | :47:31. | :47:32. | |
issue for the Supreme Court. If we listen to yesterday's sub mirks made | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
to the court, the central question is whether the rights are that the | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
citizens benefit, whether they were implemented through the treaties or | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
whether the Act which Parliament passed provided or gave people those | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
rights and it is not a straightforward question as we can | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
see from the four days that have been set aside to look at this. | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
Fiona, in terms of the process, the court is looking at two things, | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
whether the process to start leaving the European Union needs to be | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
passed by MPs and also if the devolved Parliament should have a | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
say. Yes, so if the court decides that Parliament should consent | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
before Article 50 can be triggered then a second and extremely | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
complicated set of questions arises as to whether or not the devolved | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
Parliaments and perhaps particularly the Scottish Parliament would have | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
to consent to Westminster passing legislation that would allow for | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
Article 50 to be triggered. So there is a second and very complicated set | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
of issues around Scotland and also a further set of issues arising around | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
Northern Ireland which are slightly dimp, but also complicated. OK, | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
well, let's talk about devolution, what happens if the Supreme Court | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
decides Scottish Parliament should have a say in Article 50 and | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
Northern Ireland as well as Westminster? | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
Well, that's the very tricky question, isn't it? It is one that's | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
really arisen at this level at the Supreme Court. At its most extreme | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
if the Supreme Court were to conclude that, then one would | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
imagine that we would have to have debates in those various devolved | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
parliaments on this issue before Westminster were able, itself, to | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
pass an Act. I have to say that would be quite an extreme position | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
and perhaps really flags or highlights some of the challenges | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
around devolution that perhaps haven't historically really been | :49:25. | :49:26. | |
discussed and what's interesting about this case, it is one of the | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
first where the Supreme Court really has had to look at these issues and | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
detail. Can I ask you about the independence of the judiciary, it | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
has been questioned in the run up to this. How do the judges ensure that | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
this is simply about the legalities, the legal side of this and not about | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
their own personal views or politics or opinions leaking through? Well, | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
their training is such, that's how they have been trained to work... | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
But they are human beings? They are, indeed. If you are looking at the | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
underlying course and we saw in the divisional court and the Supreme | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
Court, the judges have been at pains to make clear that this is not a | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
political decision. It is one that will affect all of us and it will | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
affect what Parliament or the Government is able to do, but at the | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
end of the day, the question they're being asked to determine is a very | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
narrow one and actually the independence of our judiciary is | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
right at the heart of our justice system. It is important not only for | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
these difficult constitutional questions about citizens, | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
Government, Government and the executive, but it is also important | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
in every day life, where you may have disputes between family members | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
and ensuring that we are able to respect our judiciary and that we | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
have faith in them in being able to do this job. I've travelled around | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
the world in the job that I have this year and one of the things | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
that's been really striking is that our judiciary is particularly | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
respected overseas for their ability to be independent. So to remove | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
themselves from any personal concerns they may have and to rule | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
as it is said without fear or favour. | :51:04. | :51:03. | |
Thank you very much. Thank you. And a reminder, if you want | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
to continue watching live coverage of the Supreme Court case, | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
you can watch it on the BBC News website, by going | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
to bbc.co.uk/Brexit. Still to come, Lady Gaga has | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
revealed she suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder | :51:18. | :51:19. | |
since being raped at the age of 19. We're getting all the details | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
from our correspondent. Could the routine use | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
of caesarean section be having A study says that women | :51:28. | :51:29. | |
with a narrow pelvis, who would historically have died | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
giving birth, will nowadays survive and pass those skeletal genes | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
on to their daughters. Let's get a bit more insight | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
into this research assistant professor Philipp Mitteroecker | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
was a part of the research team In London, we're joined | :51:48. | :51:49. | |
by Dr Daghni Rajasingam, a spokesperson for the Royal College | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
of Obstetricians and a consultant obstetrician | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
at St Thomas Hospital in London. Thank you very much for talking to | :51:58. | :52:08. | |
us. Professor first of all, tell us more about the research. We | :52:09. | :52:17. | |
developed a mathematical model that shows how Caesarean sections | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
influenced evolution in our modern society now a days. And the | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
intuition around that is around for a while so that's not maybe not a | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
big surprise, but we are the first one to actually model that and to | :52:33. | :52:41. | |
predict figures how this effect was and we predicted that Caesarean | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
sections had left an increase of 10% to 20% in the initial rate of foetal | :52:47. | :52:53. | |
pelvic mismatch which means the baby doesn't fit through the maternal | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
birth canal. D I wonder how you react to this research? Good | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
morning. You mentioned the routine use of Caesarean sections, we don't | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
routinely do Caesarean sections. The important thing to remember, there | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
are a variety of reasons why we may choose to do a Caesarean section in | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
consultation with the woman and some of these are occasionally | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
life-saving. Either for the mother or for the baby so the routine use | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
of Caesarean Serks sections is something not used in the UK and we | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
can talk about the reasons why women need Caesarean sections and an | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
important issue of why Caesarean section rates are increasing | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
globally and certainly increasing faster in certain countries. | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
We will talk about that in a second. I wonder professor what you think | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
the implications of your research are? I would like it mention that | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
our study was not meant to be critical about C-sections of or | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
modern medicine in general. My own children had to be delivered by | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
Caesarean section and I was happy that this opportunity was there. | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
Second, our predictions are about the actual rates of foetal pelvic | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
disproportion, not about Caesarean section rates. The rate of Caesarean | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
sections have increased many more times that the proportion rates for | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
other than medical reasons and it is also that the Caesarean sections are | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
those that save the life of the mother and the baby. Those other | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
Caesarean sections did not affect evolution because those babies most | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
likely would have been born anyway. Right. I understand your point about | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
you don't want people to see this as criticism of C-sections. Are you | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
hoping the research might inform debate and discussion around birth | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
methods? Yes. I mean, so, our study doesn't really see anything about | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
whether one should do C-section or not. It shows that this practise, | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
which of course is life-saving fortunately, has been effect on the | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
evolution and it shows also that, I mean, the large discussion about | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
C-sections and the increase in C-sections often this literature | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
assumes that the foetal pelvic proportion stayed constant, but we | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
showed that it didn't. It did evolve in fact. I detect from you doctor | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
that you are worried that this is going to be seen as a criticism and | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
that you feel you have to adopt a defensive position? No, I don't | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
think we have to be defensive because I think most obstetricians | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
and most units do Caesarean sections when they are required and when they | :55:39. | :55:40. | |
are appropriate. What is important to take into the evolution that we | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
have been discussing is that things like diabetes are much, much more | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
common at yawninger age. We see many more women of reproductive age that | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
have diabetes. That has consequences as to whether or not they may need | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
an Caesarean section. Rates of obesity is increasing. More and more | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
women have a higher Body Mass Index and this has an impact on the | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
Caesarean section rates. It is really usele to talk about Caesarean | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
sections. It is really useful to talk about the mode of delivery for | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
populations, but I think that the very important fact is that women | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
can try and reduce the risk of Caesarean section, increase the | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
chances of a really good pregnancy outcome by prepregnancy planning, | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
being as fit as you can be, being as close to your ideal body weight, if | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
you have medical conditions talking to your doctors or healthcare | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
professionals about it, all of those are really important things. Thank | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
you very much. Thank you both of you. | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
The pop star, Lady Gaga, has revealed that she has suffered | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
from post-traumatic stress disorder, since she was raped | :56:47. | :56:48. | |
Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu can tell us more. | :56:49. | :56:50. | |
Well, she revealed this yesterday whilst she was visiting some LGBT | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
young people, homeless people at a shelter in the States. She actually | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
talked about it and said it is the first time she has ever revealed | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
that she suffers from PDST in an interview with the Today programme | :57:07. | :57:07. | |
on NBC. I've never told anyone that | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
before so here we are. But the kindness that's been | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
shown to me by doctors as well as my family and my friends, | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
it has really saved my life. This is the first time she talked | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
about it. Like you said, she talked about rape that she was raped when | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
she was 19 years of age. She says it was a man 20 years her senior. She | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
only revealed that information two years ago and she was nominated for | :57:35. | :57:43. | |
an Oscar this year, for her song Til It Happens to you which was about | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
campus rates. She is coming out about the issues which are important | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
and will help young people talk about stuff. Thank you very much. | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
Some messages on the subject of spit hoods or spit guards. We were | :57:56. | :58:03. | |
discussing those earlier. The number of under 17s having spit guards | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
placed on their heads has increased. "I can understand that restraining | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
officers being concerned about being spat at because I have experienced | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
it a number of times. I support their use." That's from Jan. Thank | :58:18. | :58:19. | |
you. Tomorrow, more on abuse in football | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
and we follow the former boxing promoter Kelly Malonie as she takes | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
some of her old clothes I went up to her | :58:28. | :58:29. | |
at the end of the class - she said, "Where did you copy | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
this essay?" Because she couldn't believe | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
that a little chubby black girl with her pebble lenses | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
could write an essay like that. | :58:41. | :58:44. |