15/12/2016 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello it's Thursday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

This morning - Marieke Vervoort is a gold winning

Paralympian from Belgium - a country where euthanasia, the

She has decided that she wants to choose when she wants to die.

In a poignant film she explains why she's reached that decision.

More and more bad days than good days.

And when the time comes and I only have bad days then I

think I have a really good reason to say, "Now it's enough".

In Aleppo - there are reports that the first convoy of people

being evacuated from the east, is preparing to leave but it is not

clear whether the fragile ceasefire is holding to allow people

We will speak to Syrians in Aleppo and relatives here who are waiting

One group of orphans trapped in city, issues

TRANSLATION: Please let us evacuate Aleppo.

We can't go outside because of the air

We would really like you to help us leave Aleppo.

Also, the latest revelations about abuse in football -

we've learned that QPR carried on employing youth coach

Chris Gieler after carrying out an internal investigation

He is now at the centre of abuse allegations at the club; we'll bring

And - fake doesn't normally cut it, but what about when it comes to fur?

One anti-fur campaign group says the law's being broken as traders

mislead shoppers into buying real animal fur when they think

Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning.

What would you do if your bank kept putting money into your account that

wasn't yours? Not your money. You might have heard of the Australian

guy that this happened to. We will speak to him later and he will

explain what he spent all the money on. Apparently, apparently he

reckons he spent $2 million. Do get in touch on all the stories

we're talking about this morning - use the hashtag Victoria

LIVE and If you text, Preparations are under

way in the Syrian city of Aleppo for the evacuation

of rebel-held areas. Both opposition fighters

and officials from President Assad's government have confirmed that

a new agreement has been reached. There's been uncertainty over

whether the evacuation would go ahead because of a breakdown

of a ceasefire yesterday. A convoy of ambulances lined up

in Aleppo this morning, Inside the eastern side of the city,

an operation to move the most seriously wounded is said

to have started. When the ceasefire ended yesterday,

the bombardment of Eastern Aleppo resumed, with the shells raining

down on a very small It's almost certainly a violation

of international law and most probably war crimes that

are being committed right now as we speak, because you cannot

possibly distinguish 47 orphans trapped by

the shelling sent this message TRANSLATION: Please let

us evacuate Aleppo. We can't go outside because of

the air strikes and the shelling. We would really like you to

help us leave Aleppo. In the US, the White House

was indignant - but powerless. We continue to be deeply concerned

about the situation in Aleppo. We are seeing the same reports

you are, that innocent people are being slaughtered in the streets

at the hands of the Assad regime, aided and abetted

by the Russians and Iranians. Those concerns will only grow

with every day that civilians remain trapped under the fire

of their enemies in Eastern Aleppo. Our correspondent Tomos

Morgan is in Beirut. Tomos, what is the latest? The

latest is we're waiting for evacuation to begin. Russia says

that the rebel fighters will be the second lot of evacuees from the

city. They will be escorted to Idlib province. The first to be removed

all but the injured. The International Red Cross and the Arab

red Crescent will help evacuating those injured. It is understood

around 4000 rebel fighters will then be moved to Idlib province and the

sticking point in this deal has been Iran and Syria's insistence that any

negotiation must be in tandem with pulling out their fighters from

rebel held villages in north-western Syria. Now that deal has been agreed

by the rebels, that is why the deal today seems to be sticking at the

moment, but it is a very fragile deal. Ceasefire coming into place in

the early hours of the morning. As far as we know the ceasefire is

still holding, because this was meant to happen 24 hours ago and we

had people live on air trapped in Aleppo and we could clearly hear the

sounds of shelling as they spoke? That is incredibly right. It has

been a fragile, tents and confusing situation for those held in the last

rebel enclave in the east of Aleppo. As you say, yesterday appeared as

though the ceasefire was holding out and people were about to get on the

buses, people were lined up, but nobody got on them. The ceasefire

was broken and the fighting resumed. At three o'clock this morning it's

understood the ceasefire came back into force. The rebels saying last

night the deal was back in play and this morning has blah, the militia

group, confirming pro-government forces would now adhered to the

deal. And later Russia confirming the same things. Thank you for the

moment, Tomos. I know you will come back if things change.

Annita McVeigh is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

Good morning and thank you. Good morning everyone.

The Government has been told that a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU

could take 10 years to finalise, and still fail.

The BBC understands the advice was given privately

by Britain's Ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers.

Downing Street has said he was simply passing on the views

Our Assistant Political Editor Norman Smith is in Wetminster.

Good morning, Norman. Number ten says it doesn't recognise this

advice, nonetheless, does it need to be seen to addressing the concerns

raised by Sir Ivan? It chimes with a lot of the other mood music we are

hearing from Brussels. We had the chief negotiator for the European

Commission saying just the other day they are not even going to talk to

us about the trade deal until we leave, so we don't get to begin

negotiations until 2019 and there is a view some in the commission are

trying to put some stick about. They want to make this slow, protracted

and painful for Britain, just as a warning to other EU countries if

they are thinking about going down the Brexit route. The view of

ministers here is this is all bluff, that actually we go into these

negotiations in a pretty strong place, because Europe needs a deal

with us. Why? Because it is argued we are the fifth-largest economy, we

have the city and if you want to play hardball we can play hardball.

We could potentially reduce taxes, deregulate and make Britain a more

attractive place to invest. But what it tells us is timing is becoming

one of the key battle grounds in the whole Brexit debate. Norman, thank

you for that. The internet giant Yahoo says it's

working with police to investigate a large scale hack which may have

affected one billion The company says names,

phone numbers, passwords and email addresses have been stolen

during the attack which Here's our Washington

reporter Laura Bicker. Other companies have been hacked,

but Yahoo could have suffered a record-breaking information breach

- for the second time - and it's taken them over three

years to discover it. A few months ago the company

announced that 500 million accounts Now they say double that number

could have had information stolen in another data breach dating

back to 2013. Names, e-mail addresses,

phone numbers and passwords have been accessed, but they don't think

bank or payment card The company believe

a state-sponsored actor is to blame, This is the latest setback

for Yahoo, an internet pioneer which has fallen on hard times,

and it may affect a deal with Verizon which plans to buy

Yahoo for $4.8 billion. Meanwhile, account holders are being

urged to reset their passwords This programme has learnt that

Queen's Park Rangers did investigate the behaviour of a former youth

development manager Chris Gieler, who died in 2002,

was allowed to continue to work He is now at the centre of child

abuse allegations at the club. We'll have more on this

at ten o'clock. The NSPCC says more than seventeen

hundred calls have now been made to a telephone hotline set

up because of alleged The hotline, which is being funded

by the Football Association, The charity says it is encouraging

people who have been The higher education

admissions service, UCAS, says the gap between rich and poor

students winning university places Teenagers from wealthy backgrounds

are almost four times more likely to apply than those who received

free school meals, Parents are being urged to spot

the deadly signs of sepsis, as the Government launches

a national awareness campaign today. Sepsis is a rare complication

of an infection that sees the body's Children under the age of four

are particularly at risk. The Government wants parents

to know the symptoms All new police officers will have

to be educated to degree level in the future,

under sweeping changes to the way A paid three-year "degree

apprenticeship" is among three options open to people wanting

to join one of the 43 forces in England and Wales,

under changes unveiled It's hoped the move will

help forces to address The role of the front-line police

officer has changed. They have to make more difficult

decisions, just look at all the child abuse inquiries

that are happening now. The professional

development and support we give people in policing

has to change with it. These proposals address

that issue and don't exclude the good people we want to come into

policing. Scientist and Iceland are close to

drilling deeper into a volcano than ever before, reaching nearly 500

kilometres down and temperatures hitting 500 Celsius. They plan to

tap into a reservoir and harness the energy from the site that could

power 50,000 homes, as our science correspondent reports.

This is one of the most volcanically active places on earth,

but now scientists plan to harness the power of volcanoes...

This site's been operating continuously for 24 hours a day,

using this huge piece of kit, with section after section

of high-strength steel, they're almost 5000 metres down.

We have never been this deep before, we have never been into this hot

rock formations before, so we are optimistic

that this will carry us a step into the future.

But a project like this isn't risk-free.

This is what happened in 2009, during an earlier attempt

The drill unexpectedly hit magma, and was destroyed.

The most recent eruption here was 700 years ago...

Geologists say we've still got a lot to learn

There is always some risk and that has to be evaluated,

but there is also a risk if we do not understand the volcano.

In Iceland, towns are already using energy generated from volcanoes,

but this new approach could create up to ten times more electricity,

and - if it works - this technology could be adopted

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

Thank you very much. At about quarter to ten this morning we will

talk about the differences between real and fake fur and talking about

the kind of stuff that is sold at the cheaper end of the markets, like

the bobble hats with fur pom-poms. The claim today is some retailers,

and I do mean at the cheaper end of the market, are misleading

customers. How would you know the difference if the label is unclear?

We will talk about that at about 9:45am.

Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE, and, if you text,

you will be charged at the standard network rate.

There was a rare header hat-trick in the Premier League last night...

Yes, in the West Brom and Swansea game last night. Scoring a hat-trick

not that unusual, perhaps, but West Brom striker Solomon Rondon scored

all three goals with his head. That is only the second time in Premier

League history that that has happened. That show you the goals.

The first, surrounded by defenders, but showed good strength

The second, another great leap, and well

And for the third, the defenders still allowed him

So three headers in just 13 minutes, and a 3-1 win for West Brom.

That was one of eight Premier League games last night

All the big names picked up wins - Manchester United beat

Crystal Palace, Manchester City won against Watford,

Liverpool picked up three points too.

They're six points clear at the top after their 1-0

And it means they'll be this year's Christmas Number Ones.

It was Cesc Fabregas who scored in the first half,

to give Chelsea their 10th straight league win.

Trying to chase Chelsea down are Liverpool, who are up to second.

3-0 they beat Middlesborough, with two goals from

Anthony Joshua and Klitschko have held their first press conference.

How did it go? It was very civilised,

unlike some press conferences we see with tables and punches

being thrown. Joshua says he'll become a legend

by beating Wladimir Klitschko Joshua's IBF title

as well as the WBA and vacant IBO Joshua's won all 18 of his pro

fights by knockout, and hopes To do the same against the former

undisputed champion. It all seems nice and friendly, doesn't it?

James Anderson is that of the fifth test against India.

Yes, the 5th Test begins in Chennai tomorrow and England will be

without their leading wicket taker James Anderson.

He had been out since August with a shoulder injury before

returning to play the second Test in India.

Captain Alastair Cook has described him as "body sore"

Anderson has taken just four wickets in the three Tests he's played

The Test itself is effectively a dead rubber - England have

And one more line to bring you before I go.

The BBC Young Sports Personality of the Year has been announced,

it goes to Paralympic swimmer Ellie Robinson.

The 15-year-old set a new Paralympic world record when she won gold

in the S6 50m butterfly in Rio, and also took bronze

She received the award on the One Show on BBC 1 last night.

She follows illustrious footsteps - the likes of Wayne Rooney,

Andy Murray and Tom Daley have all previously won the award.

They went on to do pretty well, didn't they?

And Sports Personality of the Year is on BBC one on Sunday evening.

We will bring you the latest news at half past as well.

I know it's a week or so to go until Christmas,

I know you're rushing around trying to get things sorted,

but if you can, I really would like you to pause for ten

It's about a gold winning Paralympian who has

Marieke Vervoort is a wheelchair sprinter and has an incurable

She's from Belgium, where euthanasia is legal.

She decided in 2008 to sign papers that allow her

You already know it's hugely controversial subject -

many people strongly oppose euthanasia and disagree

The 37-year-old athlete has had this illness for 20 years.

She's paralysed, suffers chronic pain and fits regularly.

Her sporting achievements tell a different story -

she won gold and silver at the London Olympics in 2012,

and brought home a silver and bronze medal from Rio this summer.

This film is frank, honest and very poignant.

It features a moment when Marieke passes out and you might find

In effect, the film shows her day to day life dealing this illness.

In a special report from 5 Live Sport,

Sometimes when I'm really in pain and I'm crying and I can't breathe,

and when it's really scary, I scream in my room, "I want to die.

I don't want to live like this any more.

When she was a little girl, she was healthy.

The very first impression, of course, was she was joyful.

She was a young woman and she was very happy.

Every time a door got closed, another door has to open.

So when I entered up in a wheelchair, at the beginning

That I had nothing to reach any more.

And when I saw, hey, I can do this, I can do that,

I was so proud and still when I'm telling about it, I'm shaking again

Other people stop with various sports because they said,

"I'm too old", or, "I don't want to do it any more."

It's not for me, it's totally different.

My mind says, "Yeah, go forward, you like it,

Marieke is stubborn, she knows what she wants.

But she also knows what she doesn't want.

And living a hell is not the life Marieke wants.

So I immediately had the feeling that it would be something

that you can control, and if she has the control

I came a lot here and we cried together a lot, a lot, a lot.

Yes, we still do that when I have a difficult

And sometimes I just want to talk about euthanasia.

It's going to be very difficult for her.

But I ask if she wants to stay with me.

She's the best that could ever happen to me.

I want her to be with me when I decide to go.

And probably, maybe she is the only person who will be with me.

I think my parents love me so much, but I think it's too hard for them.

I know she is independent and she makes her own decisions.

Afterwards we get some time to talk a little bit about it.

We don't talk much about these questions.

You see her situation, then when you are a realist,

When she feels better with that, I can live with that.

But I don't know when the moment is coming.

I don't know if I speak for both of us, but I prefer a natural death.

I'm afraid of the moment when it will happen.

I can't imagine the confrontation at the moment.

When I'm happy, she is happy as well.

And she's going to sit in another part of the house that

When I'm crying, she's coming to lay down with me and she is licking

This morning, when the nurse came to help me to wash and dress me,

When I talk about real pain, then I say that you have such a lot

of pain, that you lose consciousness from pain.

And the tears are rolling on your cheeks and nobody can

She's not going to do anything stupid any more.

I wasn't happy with the thoughts or the sayings like,

Now she doesn't talk about it any more.

Now it's only we know there will be a day that she will call

And I can't live any more my life the way I want to live it."

Sometimes it's really difficult because my good days are getting

More and more bad days than good days.

And when the time comes that I have only bad days,

and nothing really good, I have to say, it's enough.

In the beginning we knew that it was a decision for the future.

Now we know that the future is coming near.

When we talk about her, she doesn't know what is near.

With euthanasia, I will have a soft death without pain and

with the people that I want to be with me.

I wrote every person who was in my heart.

And I want that everybody takes a glass of Cava

and that they say, "Skol! Skol!"

But thanks to that disease, she was able to do things that

people only can dream about, because I was mentally so strong.

Not everyone will agree with her choices, and some may

We will be following Marieke's journey in the new year,

and hearing from people on the other side of the euthanasia debate.

You can watch that film again and share it via our programme page.

That film made by five live sport. You can hear more about that story

in a special report on five live sport tonight at eight o'clock.

The messages from you. Someone on Facebook said, I understand, I

suffer from chronic pain. If it was legal in this country I would decide

when to go as well. Nobody knows what it is like to have unbearable

pain day after day and less they suffer as well. Taking strong

painkillers for years. I want a dignified death, not out of my mind

in pain. I think Marieke is lucky for the choice she has. Another

says, until you experience such a pain in such a condition you cannot

condemn her position. On another, we don't choose when we come into this

world, we should be up to choose when we leave it. It is an

individual's choice. Do keep those coming in using the information

on-screen. In Aleppo, 24 hours

after a ceasefire collapsed, a new one is in place -

hopefully allowing civilains trapped in the war-torn

city to finally escape. We'll be speak again to the two men

who were live on the programme yesterday as the sound of shelling

got closer. And, would you know if the pom pom

on that bobble hat you're wearing On anti-fur campaign group says some

retailers are misleading shoppers. Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news. Thank you very much, Victoria. Good

morning. Preparations are under way

in the Syrian city of Aleppo for the evacuation of rebel-held

areas, after the Syrian government and opposition fighters confirmed

a deal had been reached. A line of ambulances is waiting

to bring out the sick and wounded There are reports that some

ambulances attempting to leave Eastern Aleppo were shot

at by pro-government forces. The Government has been told that

a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU could take 10 years to finalise,

and still fail. The BBC understands the advice

was given privately by Britain's Ambassador to the EU,

Sir Ivan Rogers. Downing Street has said

he was simply passing on the views The internet giant Yahoo

says its working with police to investigate a large scale hack

which may have affected one billion The company says names,

phone numbers, passwords and email addresses were stolen

during the attack which It is the second time this year

the company has announced This programme has learnt that

Queen's Park Rangers did investigate the behaviour of a former youth

development manager Chris Gieler, who died in 2002,

was allowed to continue to work He is now at the centre of child

abuse allegations at the club. We'll have more on this

at 10 o'clock. The higher education

admissions service, UCAS, says the gap between rich and poor

students winning university places Teenagers from wealthy backgrounds

are almost four times more likely to apply than those who received

free school meals, That is a summary of the latest BBC

News, Moore at ten o'clock. And with the latest sport, Jessica.

An action packed night in the Premier League. All the title

chasers were in action and picked up wins but it is Chelsea who will be

the Christmas number ones. Six points clear at the top of the

Premier League after Cesc Fabregas gave them a 1-0 win over Sunderland.

On each of the four times the blues have won the league, they've been

top at Christmas, maybe the footballing gods in their favour.

Solomon Rondon becomes only the second person to score a headed

hat-trick in Premier League history as he helped West Brom to a 3-1 win

over Swansea. A fifth test against an Sri Lanka tomorrow and England

will be without their leading wicket taker James Anderson. Alastair Cook

described him as body saw and not worth the risk. England have already

lost the series. I will be back just after ten with more.

Thank you. I was just thinking there was another story coming!

This time yesterday we were hearing from Syrians trapped in Aleppo

The people who live in the biggest city in the country have been under

siege for months with chronic food and fuel shortages.

Today ceasefire is in place appears to be holding.

There are reports that a bus carrying wounded residents has now

left the eastern Sukkari district, heading to a pro-Syrian

In a moment we speak to the two men we spoke to live yesterday, as you

could clearly hear the sound of shelling. First, this film, which

begins at how life used to be in Aleppo, Syria's biggest city.

The situation inside Aleppo is Doomsday.

I might just die now, speaking to you.

The situation, now, is getting horrifically intensified.

No-one can imagine what happened inside Aleppo

We really hope to have a ceasefire soon

because most people now who are dying here...

They are in Aleppo and they cannot leave.

Really, it's catastrophe, the situation.

It might be one of the worst, you know,

Are you comfortable with continuing to talk to us

There is nowhere else that is safe in the whole east.

People are being burnt to death and suffocated to death

Don't believe any more ind the United Nation.

Don't believe any more in the international community.

Don't think that they are not satisfied with what's going on.

That we are facing one of the most difficult...

Or the most serious or the most horrible

There is an urgent need for humanitarian teams to be deployed

and given unfettered access to Aleppo, once government forces

We are beginning to learn the price of not intervening.

There are other solutions, such as using unmanned drones

If we do nothing, if we just stand by and watch, then

thousands more people in Syria will die in agony and millions

in Britain will live with the shame of our inaction.

They would make every effort to shoot down a British plane.

The tragedy in Aleppo did not come out of a vacuum.

It was created by a vacuum, a vacuum of Western

leadership, of American leadership, British leadership.

Let's speak to Haid Haid who left Syria four years ago,

his sister is in East Aleppo, with her husband and baby.

Also joining the conversation this morning is Peter Ford,

a former British Ambassador to Syria.

We can talk again to Monther Etaky and Zouhir Alshimale,

both of whom we spoke to on the programme yesterday.

Mr Etaky is an activist against President Assad's regime,

and lives with there with his wife and baby; Mr Alshimale

is a freelance journalist for AL Jazeera English,

Middle East Eye and the New Arab website.

As we were talking to them live yesterday we could clearly hear the

sound of shelling getting closer and closer to them. When are you going

to be able to leave, Monther? Actually, just waiting for the

evacuation now out of the city. We are, we can't evacuate with the

civilians, we have to go with the rebels, all of us. We are just

waiting for the evacuation. Where are you going on what will

happen when you get there? I am going to the only direction which is

pointed for us which is the western countryside, to Idlib. I am sure I

will try to find the safest place in this dangerous country. When we

spoke to you yesterday, our British audience could clearly hear the

sounds of shelling getting closer to you. Are you intending to get out or

are you going to stay? Of course I am going to go out of East Aleppo.

The regime will take control. The rebels will evacuate the East and

the regime will take control. It does not make sense to me to stay. I

am just intending to go and to leave for the countryside first and had

some aroused after leaving East Aleppo right now. What has the last

24 hours been like for you? The last 24 hours, there have been bombs and

attacks. It is continuing to happen. I got an interview with the BBC

Radio. There was the sound of the bombs and the attacks on East

Aleppo. They have announced that we have the ceasefire active right now.

They have stopped the bombs. The attacks were still ongoing. It has

not stopped totally. Until now there is no bombing in the city. One

person was killed and four injured. I'm going to bring it in Haid Haid,

whose sister is there. When did you last hear from her? An hour ago.

They are waiting and they don't know what will happen. Everyone is

basically scared for their lives. If the ceasefire does not go through,

they will definitely die. There is no way out. The regime will take

revenge against those people, the same way it took revenge against

other people who were confirmed by the UN and different agencies. More

than 80 women and children were executed immediately. That is the

fate they are waiting for. When you say she is waiting, they are waiting

for a bus to take them to the same place, Idlib. She does not know

anything. She is just waiting. Until now they were not told when they

would be evacuated or where to. Everything is still vague. This is

why the uncertainty of what will happen is the most difficult thing.

Especially when you have a baby and do not know what will happen. You

have experience as British ambassador to Syria. How do you

reflect on the last 24 hours what do you see happening next? In the last

several minutes there has been propaganda. Sorry. I will instruct.

Why do you describe what you have heard from two men who live in

eastern let out as propaganda? I am trying to do that. I am trying to

give you facts. The UN has confirmed 82 executions. This is not true. The

UN said it had received claims of such executions. Look, 99% of Aleppo

is already in government hands. These people we have just been

hearing from claims that there was genocide going on, that there were

massacres, that there was a holocaust. So, with 99% of the

territory now cleared, you could expect to find mounds of corpses.

You would expect to find some evidence, just one verified

instance. In fact there has not been one verified instance of summary

execution. In fact, the Syrian army is extremely disciplined. There has

been nothing on the scale that we have been led to believe. We are

being manipulated. I am sorry. The BBC for weeks has allowed itself to

be manipulated. Why are the rebel fighters always airbrushed out of

the picture? Why do we never see images of these savage, militia men,

Islamist 's, who have been preventing Aleppo girls go to

schools? They have been using school as ammunition depots. Now to respond

to that. Firstly, about the executions of the people in Aleppo

city. We know about the hunters are people who have forcibly disappeared

into the regime territory. That is by witnesses with the families of

those men who know about that. Hundreds of people, they were

executed before and in other areas. What about in eastern Aleppo? In the

last 24, 48 hours, there have been reports on social media mostly

without images. Reports of dead bodies piling up in the streets and

reports of summary executions. Firstly, these reports cannot be

captured in videos or filmed by videos. No one will be there. You

can talk to the families which executed in these areas, the

families of the relatives of these families, they will confirm that. It

would be hard to independently verified. There are not many

independent journalists in their, for obvious reasons. We don't give

them the benefit of the doubt. They have been talking about genocide.

The track record is abysmal. The journalist who has just spoken is on

the payroll of a company controlling the Al Jazeera News channel. The

freelance journalist contributes to many channels. It is unacceptable

for me. We have been bombed by the Russians. The militia has been

attacking us. There have been no consequences. The nonsense of talks

about people who have been interfering in Aleppo and the whole

Syrian situation. Anyone would be macro the city would not be brought

down right now. I don't know why he is claiming that and talking about

propaganda. Al Jazeera and the whole media are showing there's all around

the world. It is about the stories of what is happening here. Thank you

very much for talking to us. Peter Ford, the former British ambassador

to Syria. Thank you very much for your time. I hope your sister gets

out soon. It has been a long, hot and

dangerous summer in Aleppo. You can see what damage has been done.

Our Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen

will be here to give his thoughts on what happens next in Syria.

Is the end of the battle of Aleppo, the start of the endgame?

We will certainly ask him about how it is possible to report accurately

when so few Janice are in the east of Aleppo. -- journalists.

If you have a question you want to ask him,

do send them in now, on email [email protected],

or message us on Twitter - using the hashtag VictoriaLIVE.

Would you know if the pom pom on that bobble hat you're wearing

Would you actually know the difference?

The label inside should tell you, of course,

but the anti-fur campaign group, Humane Society International, says

consumers don't know that the clothes they're buying

are sometimes made with real animal fur, because there are no

Claire Bass is from the campaign group,

and has been out on the high street to see if shoppers can

They are all under ?20, they were all bought in the UK.

They all say they are made of 100% acrylic, but

in fact, they are made of real animal fur.

So, we're going to ask some people if they can tell the

difference between real and fake fur.

This is an animal called a raccoon dog.

What do you think this bit's made of and the

This is a real fur, this is real fur and this is

Does that give you all the information you need, if you wanted

I have a strange feeling its fox fur, fox tail.

If I told you this is actually real animal fur, would that surprise you?

I thought I was joking about saying fox.

I don't think they should be selling them really,

Let's talk to Claire Bass, who is from Humane Society

International, which is campaigning for an outright ban on all fur

And Mike Moser is from the British Fur Trade

Association, which represents fur brokers, dealers

What is it that retailers are doing that is wrong in your view? I should

start by saying the vast majority of our high street chains in the UK

reflect the British public opinion, which is thoroughly opposed to the

cruelty of the third trade. They have fur free policies. What we have

found at the cheaper end of the market with independent stores,

market shops, online marketplaces, is products like these. They contain

real fur. They are all very cheap. This coat was ?30. Bobble hats ?10.

Gloves for ?8. This is real fur or contains real fire? That is real

fur. -- fur. The problem with these garments is they do not contain a

label saying they contain real fur. In some cases the label says, 100%

acrylic, which is confusing. As your footage has shown, people choose a

variety of cues to choose real fur from fake fur. You try to Felix

Reading you? One is baked and one is real. I asked you, which is which?

-- you try to feel it, don't you? That is the real one, isn't it? I

have got it the right way around! People often do not have the luxury

of a side by side comparison. Why would a retailer wanted to a

customer? If they make clear it was real fur they could charge more.

There is a misconception that fur is this luxury item. It is more

expensive than fake fur. This is a product of the awful conditions on

fur farms across the world. Life is so cheap. A strip of raccoon dog

like on this coat can be sold whole for as little as ?1. What kind of

fur is that? I cannot say exactly but I guess it would be Fox or

raccoons dog. Would you know? It is raccoon. What do you think about the

fact that customers are being duped? The labels are ineffectual. The

starting point is, I absolutely agree with Claire. All consumers are

entitled to clear and accurate information on the products they are

buying. I am incredulous that anyone would want to mislead someone.

Adding fur to a garment adds luxury and value. It is not the cheap end

of the market. They are not part of the mainstream fur trade. They can

say that fur is produced. I disagree vehemently with what Claire was

saying. The welfare standards in fur farms has improved erratically and

quality comes through. Good welfare is good quality fur. Can you just

find the label? You say it has fur in it. Let's check the label, which

we -- will not mention that. The label says 35% cotton, 65% this

goes. The lining is this goes and nothing at all about the trim. That

is misleading. There is statutory and voluntary.

That is misleading. There is statutory legislation regarding

animal products. In actual fact, it's a new directive, but this slips

through. It's to do with the weight. Whether it slips through or not,

that label is misleading, yes? I think it should state it contains

fur. So is misleading? It's not misleading, it's just not stating it

has fur. We would take that even further and say what type of fur. We

advise people to say contains fur and its mink or Fox, we're very

proud of this. Your advice to the consumer? Ask the retailer, do you

know where your product comes from? If they don't know I would be

sceptical, I'd say come to us and we will advise a place to buy. And your

advice to the consumer? If they find a product they think is breaching

regulations advice trading standards. Our overarching messages,

why we have this on sale in the first place when the vast majority

of the British public reject the fur trade. We banned fur in 2000 and we

are importing it from awful farms overseas now on we should stop that.

OK, thank you both for coming on the programme. Your views are welcome.

He lost his job but discovered his bank

was allowing him unlimited credit by mistake.

For Luke Moore it was too good an opportunity to miss as splurged

We'll be talking to him live from Australia a little later.

That just before 11am. The latest news and sport in a moment, but

first, the weather. If you have seen some sun-dried this

morning, well done, not much to go around. For most of us are really

cloudy day. One of the brighter spots is Dundee, beautiful sunrise

here, just about making its way through the layers of cloud in the

sky. That is the theme today, most of us without lot of cloud. A few

brighter moments particularly in Wales and south-west England later

on. At the same time we will probably see increasing cloud

bringing some rain to the north-west of England, wet in Northern Ireland,

East Anglia and south-east England the crowd may break up to give some

limited sunny spells. Overnight tonight, where there are gaps in the

cloud it will just in. Misty over the hills,

outbreaks of rain pushing across Northern Ireland at that rain very

slowly on Friday will continue its journey eastwards into Scotland,

where it will be heavily for Dumfries Galloway. Most of England

and Wales having a dry day on Friday, with a lot of cloud but a

few breaks, perhaps some of these coming into south-east England and

East Anglia. On the mild side, up to 12 degrees.

I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme

The latest revelations about abuse in football -

Queens Park Rangers continued to employ a youth development

officer at the centre of abuse allegations at the club

after carrying out their own investigation into his

We will bring you the exclusive story.

It's unclear whether a plan to evacuate Syrian rebels

and their families from their last enclave in Aleppo is underway.

There are reports that the first convoy was turned back

We spoke to one activist in the city.

We are just waiting for the evacuation out of the city. We can't

evacuate with the civilians, we have to go with the rebels, all of us. We

are just waiting to plan for the evacuation.

And what would you do if your bank just kept on putting

money in your account, despite none of it being yours?

Obviously you wouldn't spend it, you would tell them and they get it out,

it's not my money. We will talk to an Austalian man

who lived the high life on unlimited credit for two years -

until the bank put a stope to it. Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom,

with a summary of todays news. Ministers have been warned that

a final Brexit deal may take ten years to achieve,

and still ultimately fail to be ratified by all the members

of the European Union. The advice was given in October

by Britain's Ambassador to the EU. Downing Street said Sir Ivan Rogers

was simply passing on the views Theresa May has arrived in Brussels

for an EU leaders summit. Topics under discussion will include

migration and defence. Mrs May won't attend tonight for a session on

Brexit and said it was right ministers held such talks without

her. I welcome the fact the other leaders will be meeting to discuss

Brexit tonight, as we are going to invoke Article 50 by the end of

March next year. It is right the other leaders prepare for those

negotiations, as we have been preparing. We will be leaving the EU

and we want that to be a smooth and orderly process as much as possible.

It's not just in our interest but the interest of the rest of Europe

as well. Latest reports from Aleppo say some ambulances have moved

towards the rebel held areas of the city to carry out an evacuation of

the wounded. Earlier Syrian state television said all the procedures

for evacuation were ready. The convoy of ambulances have been

waiting to move on to an earlier agreement on an evacuation plan

broke down yesterday. An activist opposed to President Assad's regime

is trapped in eastern Aleppo with his wife and baby. Actually, we're

just waiting for the out of the city. We can't evacuate with the

civilians, we have to go with the rebels, all of us. We are just

waiting to plan for the evacuation. Where are you going to, what's going

to happen to you when you get there? I'm going to the only direction for

us, the Western countryside, to Idlib. I'm sure I'll try to find the

safest place in this dangerous country.

The internet giant, Yahoo, says its working with police

to investigate a large scale hack which may have affected one billion

The company says names, phone numbers, passwords and email

addresses were stolen during the attack, which

It is the second time this year the company has announced

This programme has learnt that Queen's Park Rangers did investigate

the behaviour of a former youth development manager

Chris Gieler, who died in 2002, was allowed to continue to work

He is now at the centre of child abuse allegations at the club.

We'll have more on this in the next few minutes.

The NSPCC says more than 1700 calls have now been made to a telephone

hotline set up because of alleged historical abuse in football.

The hotline, which is being funded by the Football Association,

The charity says it is encouraging people who have been afraid

The higher education admissions service, Ucas,

says the gap between rich and poor students winning university places

Teenagers from wealthy backgrounds are almost four times more likely

to apply than those who received free school meals,

All new police officers will have to be educated to degree

level in the future, under sweeping changes to the way

A paid three-year degree apprenticeship is among three

options open to people wanting to join one of the 43 forces

in England and Wales, under changes unveiled

It's hoped the move will help forces to address

A major incident has been declared an old in Greater Manchester, where

more than 70 firefighters are tackling a huge fire at a former

paper mill. Around 100 properties have been evacuated.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30.

Thank you very much. This e-mail about further, regarding your story

on real fur marked as fake fur it's not just the lower end of the

market, we in Jersey have a high-end type store that sell woollen hats

from China with a real ball on the top with no indication. When local

media approach them regarding these hats having real fur with no

indication of it, the reaction was they sell well, so why remove the

item? View on Facebook says it is a man wants to wear real fur it's up

to them, but disgusting to pass off these items as fake fur when it is

genuine. Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and if you text, you will be charged Starting with football this morning.

West Brom striker Solomon Rondon makes history last night. The second

headed hat-trick in Premier League history.

It was Duncan Ferguson for Everton in 1997,

Not a bad way for him to bag his first hattrick for the club.

The first one, surrounded by defenders, but showed good strength

The second, another great leap, and well directed.

And for the third, the defenders still allowed him

So three headers in just 13 minutes, and a 3-1 win for West Brom.

That was one of eight Premier League games last night all the big

Manchester United beat Crystal Palace, Manchester City

won against Watford, Liverpool picked up

three points too, but can anyone catch Chelsea?

They're 6 points clear at the top after their 1-0

And it means they'll be this year's Christmas Number Ones...

It was Cesc Fabregas who scored in the first half,

to give Chelsea their 10th straight league win.

Trying to chase Chelsea down are Liverpool, who are up to second.

3-0 they beat Middlesborough, with two goals from

England will be without their leading wicket

He had been out since August with a shoulder injury before

returning to play the second Test in India.

Anderson has taken just four wickets in the three Tests he's played

Alastair Cook described him as body saw and not worth the risk. And

finally... The BBC Young Sports Personality

of the Year has been announced, it goes to Paralympic swimmer Ellie

Robinson. The 15-year-old set a new Paralympic

world record when she won gold in the S6 50m butterfly in Rio,

and also took bronze She received the award

on the One Show on BBC 1 last night. She follows illustrious footsteps -

the likes of Wayne Rooney, Andy Murray and Tom Daley have

all previously won the award. And Sports Personality of the Year

is on BBC One on Sunday evening. More revelations about abuse

in football this morning. This programme has learned

exclusively that Queen's Park Rangers did investigate

the behaviour of former youth development officer,

Chris Gieler, in the late 1980s. But he was allowed to continue

to work with children He is now at the centre of child

abuse allegations at the club. As this scandal goes on it becomes

clear that this is not just about sexual abuse, this is about what

clubs might have known ten or 20 years ago, what actions they might

have taken back then to protect young players. Today we have more

information about Chris Gieler, a former head scout at Queens Park

Rangers football club. There is a photograph of him here. He is now

dead, passed away in 2002 aged 56. He worked at the club right until

that point. He has already been named in allegations relating to

child sexual abuse at Kubiak? Yes. He was there 30 years, joined in

1971. He became youth development manager. In charge of the entire

youth setup at QPR. The club have already said in a statement last

week they are aware of allegations involving Chris Gieler that relate

to child sexual abuse back in the 1980s and nineties. And you have

been speaking to former players about this? Yes, more than ten and

members of staff. All at the moment want to remain anonymous, they don't

want us to share their names. We spoke to one former player last week

who came on the programme and talked about it, who spoke about what he

thought was a sexual assault by Mr Gieler. He said he was in a changing

room and Mr Gieler attempted to touch his genitals. He was 13 or 14

at the time and shouted at him and pushed him away. We have spoken to

many others who talks about his inappropriate behaviour. One former

player turned professional said he would often see all boys likes to

make sure they were developing properly and chapter boys when they

were naked in the shower after a game. He went on to say this made

him and other players involved feel very uncomfortable about it. Others

also spoke, and this came up again and again, about gifts Mr Gieler

would buy, quite expensive gifts for his preferred young footballers. We

are talking about hundreds of pounds spent on sporting equipment, boots

and also clothes to wear casually, subsidised holidays when that kind

of thing. While some footballers spoke about how this man was quite

strange concerned about him, others said he was a genuinely nice man and

had players best interest at heart. There was a mix of use.

We understand there was an investigation into his behaviour

back into the late 80s. 1987, 1988 after a change of ownership at the

club. They were questioned by senior members of staff about his

behaviour. They do not know the outcome of the investigation. It has

not been established whether they found abuse at the end of it at all.

After this investigation, his behaviour continued the way it was

before. Even if they could not find evidence of abuse, something should

have been done, should have changed, so he could not act inappropriately.

This player said, the club was complicit after that point and did

not act on it. They should have put a safeguarding policy in place. They

were his words. What does QPR say? They say it is difficult and

inappropriate to comment on these claims. They do not want to get in

the wake of any ongoing police or FA investigation. QPR is aware of the

historical allegations and its employee relating to child abuse in

football. The club takes these allegations very seriously. They

said any form of abuse has no place in football or society. We have new

figures out from the NSPCC showing the extent. The NSPCC setup with the

football Association a new helpline three weeks ago is the civic level

football. They said they have received 1700 calls. That is more

than 80 calls a day. After last week, the police chief said, 83

potential suspects they are looking at a 93 clubs involved you can see

how widespread the scandal is becoming. A reminder that the NSPCC

has that free helpline which offers advice and support.

And if you've been affected by ay of the issues we've been talking

about, you can find a list of helplines at the bbc action line.

Next year your council tax bill will most likely rise to pay

One day most of us will probably need social care.

Social care means help and support for elderly people which can enable

It can include anything from help getting out of bed

and washing, through to care homes and drop-in centres.

Social care can be provided by private carers or carers

rise of up to 6%, which the government

won't plug the massive funding gap that's estimated to reach

Let's talk to Conservative MP Dr Sarah Wollaston MP, who is chair

Lorna Wheatley and her 17-year-old daughter Lucy -

Lorna's mother has sold her house to pay for care in a care home,

And Ryan Godwin, who owns Holme Manor Care Home in Lancashire

Councillor Graham Chapman, deputy leader

of Nottingham City Council is here too.

Is this the right idea from your government to allow councils in

England and Wales to raise council tax and put more money into social

care? It is a short-term approach was that we needed a longer term

solution. I personally would like to see political parties working

together to look at how we can have a solution. It is very depressing,

sitting in the House of Commons and hearing this approach to something

that is absolutely essential for us to sort out now. Many of us across

the Commons are urging the Government and the opposition to

work together. We have had commissions over the years. Loads of

ideas. Whoever is in power at the time has said, we cannot possibly do

that. It will mean all of us looking at how we pay for this. Frank Field

has put forward some very good suggestions. He is a Labour MP about

how we can use national insurance, how we can build in some

intergenerational fairness about funding social care. What has been

announced later today would be a short-term way of bringing in extra

emergency cash. There is a crisis across social care. We know this. It

means more and more people, a million people, are not having care

needs met. More are ending up in expensive settings where it is not

safe for them to be in our hospitals are having a huge knock-on effect on

the NHS. If there is extra money we need to stabilise the system now. If

councils do put up council tax it will disproportionately affect

poorer people on lower incomes. The difficulty is that the areas that

can raise the most money, the wealthier areas, have more people

paying for themselves in any case. Those areas which of a disadvantage

are less able to raise money and have more people who are not able to

fund themselves. There needs to be an equalising mechanism so that we

can move money around the system, so it is therefore everybody, in my

view. I wonder if you can tell us about your mum and what has

happened. The reason my mum is in a home now is because she had a road

traffic accident some 27 years ago. Remarkably, she kept her

independence until the last few years. She is an amputee and also

had head injuries and various injuries throughout her body. She is

now 82. She fought to stay living in hiring home for as long as she

possibly could. There came a point three years ago, when she was

falling several times a day was not able to manage on her own anymore.

We took her to live with us. We managed for a year. I was struggling

by that to keep the family... It was a very tense situation. -- by that

point. The local authority put her into a care home. After she had been

around about six months, we had sold mum's how's and half the value of

that went to pay for her continuing care in the home. That money has now

run out. That ran out in April. As the local council stepped in? I do

not know that automatically is the right word. I approached them for

assistance. I continued paying in the meantime. They came and did an

assessment of mum and made a decision. The decision being that,

in our opinion, ma'am would have to move to what they classify as extra

care independent living. What does that mean? It means an independent

apartment we would have to furnish. Care staff would have to come in

four times a day to make mum of drink, get her up and washed. They

would pay for that? They would make a contribution. She categorically

does not want that. The whole idea frightens her very much. It is your

grandma. What do you think the uncertainty is about and how is it

affecting her and her outlook? It is very hard knowing that is my grandma

who is in that position. She is not able to have independence. It upsets

you, doesn't it? Yes. You own a care home business with you why. The

money the council plays with you for places great you say is not enough

to cover the bills. That is right. The money the council has paid over

a period of years, we have seen this coming for a long time, it has

gradually eroded so that the amounts paid by the council are not really

relevant completely to the total costs of care. There is a shortfall

in Council funding today. Does that mean you are putting money in to pay

for other people in your care home, which reduces your profits. Is that

what happened? Is it a lesser service? The idea it is that we

offer the best standard of service that we can put that there is no

such thing as a poor standard of care. The care industry has been

heavily regulated. You might be aware of that. We have to provide,

and indeed want to provide, are very good standard of care for people.

Vulnerable adults who are living to us on a long-term basis. What we

know from the Care Quality Commission as they have described

social care is being at a tipping point. What is happening as a result

of these pressures as they are seeing care home providers pulling

out of the market. We are seeing provision for people within their

own homes, people pulling out of that. In my constituency I know of

one individual who was living in her own home with support but now that

support is no longer available ( home, she has had to move to a

residential setting where she did not want to be. This is a real

concern for everybody. I am confused. Your party, one of its

manifesto promises, was a cap on care costs. You would only have to

contribute if you have more than ?72,000 and said of the current

?23,000. They have now you turned on that. They have delayed it. When

they brought in the National Living Wage which was a good thing, care

staff were relatively low-paid. It was a good thing to bring it in but

meant it was completely unaffordable. Local government asked

the Government to delay its they could implement the living wage and

postponed bringing in the cap. You say it will happen if then Chile.

They have to. We legislated for it in the last Parliament. What would

happen if they did not? They would have to repeal the legislation.

There is no sanction if they did not follow through on the legislation.

They are the Government. They can do what they want. They have said they

delayed it. My view is that they went into the last election with

this as a promise. It was not an issue. People thought it was done

and dusted. They cannot delay it again. Do you think, another promise

your government made, which was the triple lock on pensions, does it

make sense to keep that in place you have people with a reasonably decent

pension stuck in a hospital because there is no funding for them, to get

the Mac home so they can live independently? This is something the

head of the NHS was talking about when he gave evidence to the

communities and local Gutmann community yesterday. There is a

range of options. It is not the me to set out what that will be. We

need a cross-party group of people looking at this very closely saying,

what are all the options that are possible? That was one of them.

Let's try to bring in the fairest mechanism. We have to make sure that

older people are cared for with dignity. We have had 31% increase in

the number of people who are living to 85 and over in the last decade.

It is a great success but we need to make sure they are cared for with

dignity when they need it. Is a council tax rise for all of us in

England and Wales the right way to try to plug a bit of this shortfall?

I think, saying a bit is hitting the nail on the head. It is not going

to... It is only a very small part. I am going to bring in Councillor

Graham Chapman on that point. I looking forward to putting up

council tax bills that your council tax payers? No. It is dumping the

costs on the council taxpayer. Sarah Williston was right. The poorer the

area, the more it will cost them. You are putting the onus onto very

poor people. What would solution be? The point I have to make if we think

it will only raise about an extra million for us beyond what we are

expecting. The pressures on us are 10 million. It is putting an

Elastoplast over it. Then they will take off the last passed before the

wound has healed. It is not the right thing to do. There are

solutions. There are a range of options. They are reducing

corporation tax, a very silly thing to do. I will not go into that. You

do not mean reducing corporation tax, you mean reversing the cut in

corporation tax, don't you? Effectively. The Government is

taking a lot more in business rates that it is handing back to councils.

There is a substantial amount in a pot. We'll so need to be told in

getting very mature about it as a nation, you cannot have decent care

and not be taxed. We should be talking about national taxation in

order to be able to solve this problem. In the short term you need

to look at how much the Government is retaining from business rates and

it should be redistributed. The growth in business rates would cover

the cost. You cannot keep putting the onus on the council taxpayer,

especially in poorer areas. The other point that needs to be made is

it is not just social care that is suffering, it is other services

within Council, in order to pay for the gap in social care funding. A

rise in council tax? You will not have a choice. Do you think that is

the right way to pay for social care? We work in a dynamic

environment. The problem is here and now. People need the care today the

study cannot say, perhaps at some time in the future some more need

care. Of course, we're all getting older. We have become older or maybe

lost our health. The need is today that something needs to be done

today. Certainly I think so. Thank you.

We have a statement from the Communities Secretary,

Sajid Javid will be live on the BBC News Channel

a little later this morning, at around 11:15.

you can get a statement from him then.

It's been a long, hot and dangerous summer in the city of Aleppo and you

can see it. Our Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen

will be here to give his thoughts Is the end of the battle of Aleppo,

the start of the endgame? If you have a question

you want to ask him - do send them in now -

on email [email protected], or message us on twitter -

using the hashtag VictoriaLIVE. And, he lost his job

but discovered his bank was allowing him unlimited

credit by mistake. For Luke Moore it was too good

an opportunity to miss, So he spent loads and loads and

loads and loads, hundreds of thousands of dollars. We are going

to ask him why was he so stupid in the next half-hour.

With the News here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom.

Thank you, good morning. In the past few minutes the Russian news agency

has said the evacuation of 5000 Syrian rebels and their family

members from eastern Aleppo has begun. Latest reports say an

evacuation of the wounded is also underway. Ambulances have been on

stand-by since an earlier agreement on an evacuation plan broke down

yesterday. Ministers have been warned that

a final Brexit deal may take ten years to achieve,

and still ultimately fail to be ratified by all the members

of the European Union. The advice was given in October

by Britain's Ambassador to the EU. Downing Street said Sir Ivan Rogers

was simply passing on the views This programme has learnt that

Queen's Park Rangers did investigate the behaviour of a former youth

development manager Chris Gieler, who died in 2002,

was allowed to continue to work He is now at the centre of child

abuse allegations at the club. The internet giant Yahoo

says its working with police to investigate a large scale hack

which may have affected one billion The company says names,

phone numbers, passwords and email addresses were stolen

during the attack which It is the second time this year

the company has announced A major incident has been declared

in Oldham in Greater Manchester, where more than 70 firefighters

are tackling a huge fire Around 100 properties

have been evacuated. That's a summary of the latest news,

join me for BBC Newsroom Here's the latest

sport now with Jess. It was busy night in

the Premier League, with all the title chasers picking

up wins - Manchester United, But it's Chelsea who'll be

Christmas number ones. They're six points clear

at the top of the table, after Cesc Fabregas gave them a 1-0

win over Sunderland. On each of the four times the Blues

have won the league, Salamon Rondon becomes only

the second person to score a headed hattrick in Premier League history,

as he helped West Brom And the 5th Test begins in Chennai

tomorrow for England's cricketers, but they'll be without their leading

wicket taker James Anderson. Captain Alastair Cook has

described him as "body sore" England have already

lost the series. That is all the sport for now.

Cheers. A post-Brexit trade deal

between the UK and EU could take up to ten years to negotiate -

that's according to Britain's The BBC understands Sir Ivan Rogers

has warned ministers a deal might not be done

until the mid-2020s, and that an agreement could ultimately be

rejected by other EU member states. Let's get the latest

from our political guru, I guess when people voted to leave

the EU most of us thought it would be done and dusted in a few years.

Not so, it seems, according to our man in Brussels, Sir Ivan Rogers,

who says actually to get a final trade deal, get everything sorted

out could take a decade and even then, it might not be possible. Any

final arrangement would have to be signed off by all 27 other EU

parliaments. It might be Mission impossible, and that is becoming a

bit of a bone of contention, because listening to some of the voices in

Brussels, it looks like they think this is going to take an awfully

long time. We had the chief negotiator for the European

Commission the other day saying we're not even going to talk to you

about a trade deal until you've left in a couple of years' time. So we

don't even get to start to talk about what sort of trade

arrangements we might have until 2019, and there is a view that may

be summit in Brussels are just trying to make this difficult for

us. They're trying to put a bit of stick about. Why? Because they want

to discourage other countries from going down the Brexit Road. That is

one of the things they are likely to discuss this evening at the EU

summit in Brussels, where they will have up to summit dimmer that

Theresa May won't be invited to, because they want to club together

in private to discuss tactics about how they are going to deal with us.

Arriving for the summit this morning Mrs May was asked all about this,

about the trade deal and about that dinner.

I welcome the fact that the other leaders will be meeting

to discuss Brexit tonight, as we are going to invoke Article

50, trigger the negotiations, by the end of March next year.

It's right that the other leaders prepare for those negotiations,

We will be leaving the EU, we want that to be a smooth and orderly

It's not just in our interest, it's in the interests

Mrs May walking away from questions about if it would take ten years.

Others have been talking about this. We heard from a government minister

in the Commons who played down the idea it could take ten years. He

said look at the deal between the US in Jordan, it only took four months

so it doesn't have to go on for ever and a day. And there's been a bit of

a blowback against Sir Ivan Rogers from Brexiteers, saying this is the

guy that got it all wrong regarding David Cameron's negotiations with

other EU leaders. Sir Ivan is a a professional

politician and was in the Foreign Office for six years,

but I do fear that he's been rather scarred by his own pessimism

in relation to the renegotiation, which didn't succeed

in persuading the British people to stay in the EU,

and that may have But we ought to have a worst-case

scenario, but the truth is, what we're going to be aiming

for is the best case scenario, and that includes barrier free

trade, which is good for Britain So, what does this all tell us? I

think this tells us it's going to be a pretty bruising set of

negotiations. What we're seeing now here is the initial manoeuvring,

with the European Commission and others in Europe saying, well, this

is going to be difficult, it's going to take you at least ten years on

the British government saying, you know what? You need us as much as we

need you, we can do this pronto, pronto. We are beginning to see each

side square up to the other. Thank you very much, Norman. Let's bring

you the latest from Aleppo. In the past few minutes the Russian news

agency has said the evacuation of 5000 Syrian rebels and their family

members from eastern Aleppo has begun. In a moment we will speak to

our middle east correspondent to get his thoughts. Thank you for your

question so far for him. First, this film, that begins with how life used

to be in Aleppo. Syria's largest city...

The situation inside Aleppo is Doomsday.

I might just die now, speaking to you.

The situation, now, is getting horrifically intensified.

No-one can imagine what happened inside Aleppo

We really hope to have a ceasefire soon

because most people now who are dying here...

They are in Aleppo and they cannot leave.

Really, it's catastrophe, the situation.

It might be one of the worst, you know,

humanitarian situations in the new history.

Are you comfortable with continuing to talk to us

There is nowhere else that is safe in the whole east.

People are being burnt to death and suffocated to death

Don't believe any more in the United Nation.

Don't believe any more in the international community.

Don't think that they are not satisfied with what's going on.

That we are facing one of the most difficult...

Or the most serious or the most horrible

There is an urgent need for humanitarian teams to be deployed

and given unfettered access to Aleppo, once government forces

We are beginning to learn the price of not intervening.

There are other solutions, such as using unmanned drones

If we do nothing, if we just stand by and watch, then

thousands more people in Syria will die in agony and millions

in Britain will live with the shame of our inaction.

They would make every effort to shoot down a British plane.

The tragedy in Aleppo did not come out of a vacuum.

It was created by a vacuum, a vacuum of Western

leadership, of American leadership, British leadership.

Our Middle East Editor, Jeremy Bowen, is here.

If all those people who are trapped in the east of Aleppo get out, what

happens next? The plan is they will be put onto buses and be driven, the

people who are there now, be driven out and driven to the area around it

slip, which is not too far away, held by rebels. -- Idlib. There are

precedents for this happening. Elsewhere in Syria they have done

that sort of thing. While some people have disappeared along the

way, they have not experienced widespread massacres or anything

like that. Is this the beginning of the endgame or not? It is not the

end of the war. It is a very important milestone in the war. Last

year, the rebels were doing much better. There was talk they might

try to encircle the regime 's side of the city. If they succeeded, they

would have said it was a colossal victory. The boot is on the other

foot. It is a colossal victory for the regime and for their backers.

The Iranians, and anti-Western coalition as well. That means it is

also a defeat for those in Saudi Arabia, the United States, other

countries, who have been supporting some of the militias in eastern

Aleppo. President Assad is found to you decide he doesn't want to be

there. He has been written off. He has been written off so much. There

were reports earlier he took refuge on a warship in the Mediterranean,

it was so bad now he is doing remarkably well. The view from his

palace is incredible. There are reports, not confirmed, he might

even go to Aleppo to do a victory speech. It is not the end of the war

but may well be the end of talk about regime change was that he will

knock him off his perch? Ron asked on e-mail, can someone please

explain my ordinary people in East Aleppo are killed by government

forces? A number of reasons. It is a war. People get killed. There has

also been a very widespread use of very powerful weapons. The Russians

and the Syrians deny they target civilians. But the Russians have got

weapons which can be much more accurate. The Syrians do not. They

use things like barrel bombs. Assad denied that. They are indiscriminate

weapons. I know when you put one of those at the back of a helicopter

will kill people in the region where it explodes and it doesn't matter

whether it is a four-year-old child or 23 fighter. Christopher asked,

how much of the blame lies with the rebels? They could have surrendered.

We use the term rebel quite loosely. There are different factions. Let's

not go into the rest of Syria. Different factions within eastern

Aleppo. Some have been trained and armed by Americans. Some of which

are Saudis and some of which are jihadists associated with Al-Qaeda.

In the last few months, there has been a lot of infighting among them.

The more pro-Western ones work in the ascendancy. In recent weeks and

months, the jihadists have come out on top. They have been wasting a lot

of their energy on fighting each other, rather than them fighting the

regime 's side. Could they have stopped? Yes, they could but they

say it is a walk and we are fighting for everybody's lives. All of those

factions President Assad describes as terrorists. He is very consistent

with theirs. He does not say these are good rebels and these are bad

rebels he says these are terrorists. The Russians were critically for

him, the Russians echo that. So do a lot of Syrians. If you go on the

side of the regime or among people who are near the edge, say Western

Aleppo, government-held and when the city was split, they did not suffer

like on the levels of East. Still they received quite considerable

numbers of people being killed or injured. War is a very dirty

business. War is always dirty. There are no clean wards. This is

particularly MAPI. Justin says we keep hearing reports of genocide. --

mucky. How do we know which reports are accurate and which are

propaganda? Often I am not satisfied until I see things with my own eyes.

I would be in Syria if I had these are but I do not and so I am here.

-- a visa. There was a terrible massacre in Srebenica. How did we

find about that? Because we found bones, etc. Now we have social

media, it is different. My particular take on it is the fact

that the Russians are involved in this and they want to show they can

manage it. The International Red Cross are there with these convoys.

The Syrian Arab red Crescent is also there. These are all witnesses. I

would think if they are planning a massacre, what you don't want around

our witnesses. Right. On social media from people in eastern Aleppo,

they have said bodies are piling up on the streets. There are summary

executions. We have not seen images of that on social media. We would

not be able to independently verify that. There have been words. If

people are doing a massacre, they do not like being photographed and we

would not expect to see things like that. You might see dead bodies.

There has been a lot of shelling. When you are in a place that has

been shelved when you do not want to stick your head onto the streets and

start taking pictures. It is frightening. You can see in the

pictures in the background, there are loads of people who are leaving

who are not fighters. This is over the last few days. Stories would

emerge. Also journalists who are there. As soon as I get a Visa, we

will also be over it, if we can access. That is a big question in

Syria. Trying to find out what really happened. Personally, if you

don't know for certain, take everything you hear on social media

with a pinch of salt. You have to. People push their own view.

Sometimes... The reason why there are journalists around is we try to

work our way through all of this. It is difficult and it is complex.

Access is everything. Information tends to emerge if things happen.

You do not have a visa because President Assad does not want you to

have one. It takes a while. My colleague was there. Then another

application and unless they want to fast track it, and they never have,

it always takes a couple of weeks. Thank you very much.

What would you do if your bank started to provide

Of course you would not. You would not be so stupid.

That's what Luke Brett Moore from New South Wales in Australia did.

After a car accident and a break up with his girlfriend,

he discovered his bank weren't capping his overdraft.

The spending started out small - but he ended up with over

Pleasure to be here. You spent six months on remand before being tried

for, what was it, theft or fraud. It was obtaining financial advantage by

deception. Why did you spend it? Young and foolish, I guess. Not that

young. You work in your 20s. Our brains are not fully developed until

we are 25. It's sort of just happened. It was an error of

judgment. I'm not sure what I find more crazy, the fact that happened

to me or the media circus that surrounded it since I have been

acquitted. Presumably you are saying to the bank, this credit it is crazy

and insane. What are you doing? I never told the bank that. I asked

them if they would lend me the money and they did. It was as simple as

that really. Sort of a strange experience to go through. That is

just the way it happened. What did you spend the money on? All sorts of

things. I'd bought cars and went on holidays. Celebrity memorabilia and

artworks. You name it, I sort of bought it pretty much. It went on

for about to years. Then the police came to my house, raided me, and

took everything back I ever owned. I ended up in prison for six months

over it. Have you still got that stuff? No, no. Every single thing I

ever owned was confiscated by the police. Right. And so you were

tried. You were acquitted. How did you react to that? I was never

surprised by the fact I was acquitted in the end. It was just a

shame it took four years to go through from one call to the other

and then the six-month jail time I did before I was eventually

acquitted by the Supreme Court here in New South Wales. Why were you not

surprised with the acquittal? You had spent the cash. It was not

yours. Yes. It came down to a rather complicated area of law, and a law

that had never been applied to anyone in Australia before. I was

the first person they eventually charged with this offence. By the

time it went to the Supreme Court, the judge made the decision that

what I did was not a crime and there was no evidence that I had committed

a crime. Wow! A lot of people were shocked by the verdict. I was not. I

sort of knew the law and educated myself on it and things like that.

It was unanimous decision. Three justices in the Supreme Court all

ruled my conducted not amount to a criminal offence. There are enough

but do you think you did something wrong? That is a matter of opinion.

Some people say what I did was really horrible and I should be

burned at the stake but other people pat me on the back and give me the

thumbs up. Messages from all over the world saying all sorts of

different things will stop I am certainly not proud of what I did.

I'm not telling my story because I am proud of it. I am just telling it

because it is a story that is interesting and needs to be told.

Thank you for talking to us. Choose your time. Thank you.

I'm starting this new job, I'm taking over a really tough school.

Where is it? You're not going down south...?

Huddersfield? I know. That's like the dark side of the moon.

You do know that this house is haunted?