24/01/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


24/01/2017

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Hello, it's Tuesday, it's nine o'clock.

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I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

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In exactly half an hour's time, the highest court in the land

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will rule on whether Parliament or the PM is in control of the UK's

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I will be reporting live problem the Supreme Court, we will bring you the

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decision as it happens, and all the reaction from the court.

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We'll bring you that decision live as it happens,

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and throughout the programme we'll bring you plenty of reaction

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I am a professor of public law, I am going to explain the meaning of the

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judgment, not about whether we leave, about how we leave the

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European Union. Plus, we'll bring you reaction

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from senior politicians, and our audience of voters

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are here to give their Judges are not hell-bent on

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dismissing the views of British people, they just want to ensure it

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is carried out with the correct mandate. It is correct that judges

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clarify the detail of the law, citizens have a right to clarify

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important questions. The judges have no right to interfere with the

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democratic wishes of the electorate, let's stop wasting time and get on

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to repealing the European Community act.

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As always, really keen to hear from you - do get in touch

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Hello, welcome to the programme. We're live until 11.

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As you'd expect, the programme will be dominated by reaction

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to that Supreme Court ruling, due in just under

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As always, do get in touch- use #VictoriaLIVE,

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and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today - in half an hour's time,

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the Supreme Court will deliver its ruling on whether the Prime

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before she can start the process of leaving the EU.

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The long-awaited judgment will decide how the EU's Article 50

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The Government argues that ministers have the power to do that,

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but opponents say they need Parliament's approval,

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The European Union ignites strong passions.

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Almost seven weeks ago, protesters gathered outside

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the Supreme Court as the 11 most senior judges in the

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Hour after hour of dense legal argument

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followed on the biggest question in politics -

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Is it behind the door here in Downing Street?

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The Prime Minister says she can start the UK's divorce from the EU

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herself, but campaigners led by the businesswoman Gina Miller,

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says MPs and peers have to have a say first.

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This morning, we will find out who has won.

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If the Government loses, they will also lose complete control

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of the timetable for starting the process

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It will have to rush its plan through Parliament

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Today is not about whether Brexit should or will happen

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That is why it matters, and that is why there

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was a lot of interest here in what the judges had to say.

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Our correspondent Ben Brown is at the Supreme Court.

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morning, Ben! Good morning, Victoria, this

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judgment, whichever way it goes at night column 30, is going to make

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legal, constitutional and political history. -- at 9:30. It will have

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huge obligations for the way the Brexit processes implement, is it

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Parliament that triggers Article 50, or is it the Government through its

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prerogative powers? Let's just tell you that we can see Gina Miller, the

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businesswoman who brought this case originally, Gina Miller, the

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investment fund manager who brought the case. And the Government

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appealed against her victory in the High Court in November and brought

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it here to the Supreme Court. Gina Miller says she has had death

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threats, threats to her business interests, threats to boycott her

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business as well, because of this case that she has brought. And she

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will be hoping that the 11 Supreme Court Justices will rule in her

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favour and against the Government, and will say that it is Parliament

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that is sovereign, and it is Parliament that has to trigger

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Article 50. Let's talk to Clive Coleman, our legal affairs

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correspondent, the 11 Supreme Court justices have been deliberating over

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Christmas and the New Year, and we are going to hear their judgment at

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half past nine. Let's not underplay this, this is quite simply the

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biggest case about where power lies in our constitution as between

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ministers on the one hand and Parliament on the other, this is a

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case that will define the limits of executive power of the government,

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which wants to trigger Article 50 using these ancient powers, these

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prerogative powers, they say they can do that because, effectively,

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they are working with an international treaty that is an area

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where the prerogative can legitimately be used. Gina Miller

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says, no, what is at stake here is rights enjoyed by you and I,

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citizens of the UK that are enshrined in an act of Parliament,

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the 1972 European Communities Act, and you cannot reach in with the

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prerogative and rip those out. So this case is, as you say,

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constitutionally of enormous significance, we are going to hear

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the ruling, it will come through the president of the court, Lord

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Neuberger, who will come into court with the other justices, and they

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will take about five minutes to give a summary of the ruling. We will get

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a full judgment to pick over later in the day. 11 Supreme Court

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justices, it is a bit like a jury, they could be a majority verdict, it

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could be something like 7-4. Absolutely, and Lord Neuberger will

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tell us any dissenting judgments are from, but it is historic - 11

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justices have never sat before, and not just since the Supreme Court was

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established in 2009. Its predecessor, the judicial committee

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of the House of Lords, which used to sit in Parliament, going back to the

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19 -- 19th century, they never sat in that number, so this is really

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huge. Clive, thank you very much indeed. We will get their judgment

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at half past nine. The Prime Minister, Theresa May, just up the

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road in Downing Street, will be getting a sneak preview. We gather

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she will hear the judgment at 9:15. That is it from me for now.

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So a few minutes for the Prime Minister to find out, 23 minutes for

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the rest of us, we will bring you the ruling live on BBC News. Joanna

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has the rest of the morning's news. President Trump has signed an order

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to formally withdraw America fulfilling one of

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his campaign pledges. The trade deal involving

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a dozen countries President Trump has also cut funding

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for international groups and has frozen the hiring

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of some federal workers. Motorists caught driving

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well above the speed limit will face bigger fines

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after a review of the sentencing guidelines

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for courts in England and Wales. to impose much tougher

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penalties on drivers, and are intended to make sure

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the punishment for speeding is a lot higher

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for the worst offenders. after a 15-year-old boy was

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stabbed in north-west London. He was attacked on a street

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in Willesden yesterday. Ambulance crews treated

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the boy at the scene and took him to hospital,

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where he was later pronounced dead. Detectives have yet

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to release his name, Heathrow Airport says 100 flights

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have been cancelled because freezing fog in south-east England

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has again reduced visibility. The airport has apologised to those

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affected and has advised passengers to check the status of their flight

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before travelling to the airport. Flood management in England

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and Wales is still fragmented, inefficient and ineffective,

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according to a group of MPs. Members of the Commons Environment

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Committee have criticised two months after

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they recommended major reform. The Government says its plans

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will help protect 300,000 homes. The citizens of this country

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want to see the Government We've asked them questions.

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We've made some recommendations. It's the Government's

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responsibility to protect its citizens, and as far

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as we're concerned, and explaining how best

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it's going to do it. The nominations for

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this year's Academy Awards Critics have tipped

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the modern musical romance It's expected to face

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stiff competition from the domestic drama

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Manchester By The Sea a coming of age drama

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set in drug-torn Miami. That is a summary of the latest

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news, more at 9:30. We have voters from all over the UK

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here this morning, they will give their reaction to the Supreme Court

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ruling at 9:30. Wherever you are, get in touch, what do you think of

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the fact that 11 justices will make this decision as to whether it is

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the Prime Minister or Parliament who has the final say on triggering the

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process of leaving the European Union? Do get in touch in the usual

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ways. Reshmin has the sports news. Bernie Ecclestone, in charge of

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Formula One for nearly 40 years, has been removed from his post. He makes

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way following a ?6.4 billion takeover by US giant Liberty Media.

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Chase Carey, the new chief executive, has appointed the former

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supremo as a chairman and merit is, and honorary chairman and adviser to

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the board, but Bernie Ecclestone says he has no idea what the title

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means and insists he was forced out. Some of the tennis old guard

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enjoying a renaissance at the Australian Open.

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Yes, Venus Williams has booked a place in the semifinals, for the

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first time in 14 years, remarkable, rolling back the years. She beat

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Anastasia Pavlyuchenkova in straight sets. Venus has never won a title in

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Melbourne before, next up for her is Coco Vandeweghe. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga

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was beaten by Stan Wawrinka in straight sets. Roger Federer is in

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quarterfinal action today, up against the man who knocked out Andy

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Murray, Misha Zverev. Murray is likely not to play in Great

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Britain's Davis Cup tie next week against Canada, that news just in

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this morning. The Six Nations cakes off next month, a big name missing

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from the England team. Flanker James Haskell has not travelled with the

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squad to Portugal, he could miss the opener against France in February.

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He has spent the last six months on the sidelines with an injury, but

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despite returning to action for wasps, Wasps on Sunday, he will not

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train with the England squad, so still a lot of waiting to do. And

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Ryan Mason has responded well to surgery, what is the latest on his

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condition? That is absolutely right, he has responded well to surgery,

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the Hull City midfielder whose family have thanked well-wishers for

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their support after age attic 24 hours. He underwent surgery on

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Sunday after picking up a fractured skull at Stamford Bridge. He was

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injured in a clash of heads with defender Gary Cahill during the

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Premier League fixture. He was described as conscious, talking and

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in a stable condition yesterday, but he will be monitored in hospital

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over the coming days, so really positive news for Ryan Mason. Back

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with more sport in the next hour. Cheers, Reshmin, thank you. Viv

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says, Parliament has voted, what is the point in all of this today?!

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Another says, this is the democratic process, it is really simple to

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non-idiots. Roy says, and elected judges should not interfere. So who

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decides? That is the question, Prime Minister and Parliament?

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What is at stake is who controls the divorce

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proceedings with the EU - the triggering of what's

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known as Article 50, which begins the formal process

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The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out.

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has asked me to form a new government,

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and we're going to make a success of it.

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It's about our United Kingdom and all our futures.

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What I am proposing cannot mean membership of

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OK, so what could happen in the next 15 minutes?

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We can speak now to Professor Alison Young from Oxford University,

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Plus, a group of politicians from various parties.

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Theresa Villiers for the Conservatives,

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Labour's Owen Smith, who voted to remain.

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Ukip's Suzanne Evans, who voted Leave.

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Tom Brake for the Lib Dems, who voted Remain.

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And we've got an audience of voters from right across the UK.

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Alison Young, what do you expect to happen? That's the ten million

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dollar question. A chance to prove myself wrong in 15 minutes! My guess

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would be probably you need an Act of Parliament, but I don't think they

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will say that legally you have to consult the devolved governments as

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well. That would be my guess. So MPs will get a vote? Yes. It may not be

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11, but a majority. Exactly. Owen Smith it the Government loses and

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you and your colleagues get a vote, will you vote against triggering

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Article 50? Possibly. I'm going to try and amend the Bill because I

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think we will have a Bill. I think that's right in order to make sure

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that we've got a decent opportunity on behalf of the people we represent

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to scrutinise that Bill and crucially, in order to give us an

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opportunity at the end of that process in two or three years time

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when we've concluded negotiations to determine whether it is going to be

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good for Britain or bad. If your amendments fail and sources suggest

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the word of the Bill will be so tight that there won't be a chance

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for critics to amend it. If it is a Bill, it must be amendable. There

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can be new clauses tabled to any Bill even if it is a one clause

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Bill. Even if the Tories try and truncate scrutiny. They wanted to

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simply enact it for party political purposes, but if we get to that

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point, I will table amendments and others will table amendments and the

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liberals and the Labour frontbench will table amendments, we will try

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and hold the Government to account and make sure we can get the best

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for the British people. I don't feel if we are unable to get those

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amendments through in all conscience I can vote to trigger Article 50.

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What do you think of that, Suzanne Evans? In there has to be an Act of

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Parliament, that's fine. If either House decides to vote against the

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will of the people, it will probably trigger a general election and we

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will have a new House of Commons. Do you think really think that's a

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realistic possibility? I think they will be signing their own death

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warrant. Public confidence in the House of Lords is low as it is. If

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they try and frustrate the referendum outcome, I think they're

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in trouble. You will vote against it as a Lib Dem? The thing we will

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press for is the idea there should be a second vote on the terments of

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the deal so people voted for departure and voted to leave the EU,

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but did not vote for what the shape of our are you nip with the EU was

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going to be like. If we don't get that, we will vote against. Is that

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not unacceptable because you would be voting against the will of the

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majority of people in this country? We would be saying in fact the

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people should have their say. So actually I think it is

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reinforcing... People had their say? Very they voted to leave the EU. The

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polling suggests that people whether they voted for Brexit or for Remain

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are in favour of us staying in the single market. How do you respond to

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the Lib Dems argument Theresa Villiers? The Lib Dems want to

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frustrate, implementation of the result of the referendum. That's not

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what he said? The reality is referendums are not best out of

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three. We had a vote. The turn-out was high. More people voted Leave in

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this country that had ever voted for anything else in the history of

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British democracy. As the elected House, we need to obey the will of

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the people and vote to trigger Article 50. Do you want to respond?

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The difficulty for Theresa, she knows that what the EU is going to

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look like is different from the views articulated by many members of

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the Leave campaign. So there was no consistent view of what our

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relationship was going to be like of the that's why we think people

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should have their chance in saying either we like what the Government

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are proposing in terms of the deal, or alternatively, actually, we think

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that the current arrangement is preferable. I have to disagree. The

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Leave campaign made it very clear what leaving the EU was going to

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look like. It meant taking back control of our borders and taking

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back control of our money and sovereignty of the British

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Parliament. It was made also clear Tom, as you know, time and time

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again the Remain campaign said we'll have to leave the single market. The

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Remain campaign used that as a scare tactic. We have to leave the single

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market and then we have to in order to get the control back. Can I pick

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up on that point? We were promised by the vote Leave campaign by

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Michael Gove that Scotland would get powers over immigration if we voted

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to leave. I asked the Home Secretary about that yesterday and we were

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told we're not getting it, a broken promise. Just as we were told that

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if we voted no to independence we would be able to stay in the

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European Union, another broken promise. So vote Leave does not have

:21:22.:21:26.

a great record. You can't pawn on a blank page and you didn't tell us,

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and the little we have been told has been broken. Depending what the

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Supreme Court justices say in eight minutes time, potentially, you, the

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Scottish Parliament, could block Brexit or at least have a greater

:21:40.:21:42.

say over the process. What will you do? Well, it is up to the Scottish

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Parliamentarians, I'm not a Scottish Parliamentarian, but the people

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sitting except Ukip are represented in the Scottish Parliament. Now, the

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UK Parliament have never legislated for something that is a

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responsibility of the Scottish Parliament without getting the

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Scottish Parliament's permission to do so-so I think that's appropriate

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that given any moves to leave the European Union will have a

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significant impact on each and every citizen in every part of the United

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Kingdom. We will have to see what they say. They may or may not

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spesify how the Government should consult Parliament. If indeed, they

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decide that is the way to go. A general question about judges having

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a say at this point. Suzanne Evans, you talked in December, you were

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really cross with the High Court ruling, you talked about in December

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judges should come under some form of democratic control and scrutiny

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of Select Committees, do you stand by that? What I was trying to say

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that judges should be subject to some kind of democratic scrutiny...

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With independence comes accountability. And I think Ukip is

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looking at possibly talking about how the judicial Appointments

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Commission works and say shouldn't the chair of the justice Select

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Committee have some say in the appointment of judges. Because of

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the High Court ruling? No, because it is a general principle of

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democracy. The situation we have a the moment... Why are you smaolg?

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Judges are appointed by a quango or a self appointing oligarchy. That's

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wrong. You're undermining it if any of the controls you were talking

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about were put in place. Scrutiny, not controls. The other thing to

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remember here is this is a point of law that the judges are deciding on.

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It is not a political decision. They're deciding whether it is right

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for ministers and the Prime Minister to simply decree that we are moving

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Article 50 as opposed to asking Parliament. What I never understood

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is why Ukip and the other people who campaigned so hard to bring back law

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making powers to the UK and to Parliament then get annoyed about

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the prospect of the Parliament exercising its rights. It is a

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nonsense argument. What do you think about democratic accountability

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slash control? I don't think that works with regards to the way the

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judiciary works. The judiciary is there, its independence is important

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so it can give you an independent point of what the case law says.

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There is that element of independence. There is

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accountability. You are distinguishing between how you

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appoint them so we can discuss separately whether the appointment

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process is independent. I don't think you should make them

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democratically appointed. That's not the way to go. The justices

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considering this point of law. Is it the right? Are you cross about it?

:24:46.:24:50.

Anthony, what about you? It is one of the key parts of the separation

:24:51.:24:54.

power and it's absolutely important that they have their say because the

:24:55.:24:57.

decision to leave the European Union will affect every citizen in this

:24:58.:25:03.

country. The terms that were put to the nation, were spurious at best.

:25:04.:25:07.

We're still waiting on the ?350 million to the NHS. We're still

:25:08.:25:11.

waiting on World War three as well. Let's hope that doesn't happen. The

:25:12.:25:21.

Remain campaign told all sorts of lies. Judges should have a say. It

:25:22.:25:27.

is a long-standing democracy and long may that continue. You think

:25:28.:25:31.

this is interference in the democratic process. Explain why.

:25:32.:25:36.

Because I think it's all very good, yes, we won the independence of the

:25:37.:25:40.

judiciary, however, we have had a referendum and the people have

:25:41.:25:45.

spoken. So, every time we don't like a result of an election or a

:25:46.:25:49.

referendum, we go back and try to undermine it. So what's the

:25:50.:25:54.

difference between our democracy and a dictatorship? So when the

:25:55.:25:56.

president of the Supreme Court said this is not about overturning the

:25:57.:26:01.

referendum, it is about the process by which we leave the European

:26:02.:26:05.

Union. Did you not believe him? No, I do not believe him and I just want

:26:06.:26:10.

to talk about Tom Brake because his constituency in London, most of his

:26:11.:26:15.

electorate voted to leave and here he's coming and saying that he wants

:26:16.:26:19.

to stay and he wants to fight against it. Aren't you undermining

:26:20.:26:24.

democracy? Members of Parliament are elected to represent their

:26:25.:26:26.

constituents, but we are also entitled to hold our own view. I'm

:26:27.:26:32.

against the death pen aland if the majority of my constituents favour

:26:33.:26:35.

the death penalty, that doesn't mean I will support the death penalty.

:26:36.:26:40.

Nobody is going to chop your head off to leave the EU. Most voters,

:26:41.:26:44.

they will have known for sometime that voting for a Liberal Democrat,

:26:45.:26:47.

you're going to get someone who is pro-European. So it was a very small

:26:48.:26:51.

margin, but I think in relation to judges, there are many countries

:26:52.:26:57.

around the world where they exert democratic control... Are you

:26:58.:27:03.

suggesting I'm saying that, come off it, Tom. Come off it. The first

:27:04.:27:10.

point I want to respond to is the ?350 million. You have to be quick

:27:11.:27:15.

because we're going live any second. It wasn't a promise made by the

:27:16.:27:20.

campaigns... Apart from the bus advert. It wasn't a promise. The

:27:21.:27:25.

point I want to make I believe that judges should have the power to

:27:26.:27:28.

decide on this point of law, but there is an argument to be made

:27:29.:27:32.

though the fact that Parliament was ignored for 40 years when British

:27:33.:27:36.

people didn't get a chance to lobby their MPs to have a vote on whether

:27:37.:27:41.

the issue would be part of the European Union or not. That is an

:27:42.:27:44.

important point and that might be one of the reasons why people

:27:45.:27:47.

decided that OK, well, this is the first chance I'm going to be heard,

:27:48.:27:50.

then I might as well just stick it to the guys that didn't give me the

:27:51.:27:57.

chance. All those treaties we signed handing over power to the European

:27:58.:28:02.

Parliament that you did nothing about.

:28:03.:28:10.

Kenneth says, "The ruling is a tactic to obstruct and achieve

:28:11.:28:14.

nothing. It's quite frustrating. What do they hope to adhef?" Marie

:28:15.:28:22.

says, "The real story is the rip and but we areful can't accept our

:28:23.:28:26.

decision to leave the EU." Glen says, "The courts must decide. Or we

:28:27.:28:32.

have a dictatorship." Robert says, "How much has Gina Miller and her

:28:33.:28:36.

banker backers cost the public purse? This money could have been

:28:37.:28:40.

spent on the NHS, rather than defending the tantrums of the 1%."

:28:41.:28:46.

Let's go live to the Supreme Court as we await the judgement. Ben Brown

:28:47.:28:49.

is there. Ben, what's going to happen in the next few minutes?

:28:50.:28:56.

Yes, Victoria, at 9.30am we will hear from Lord Neuberger who is the

:28:57.:29:01.

president of the Supreme Court. And he will deliver the judgement of the

:29:02.:29:06.

11 Supreme Court justices. They sat for four days last month to hear

:29:07.:29:10.

this case and essentially they have to decide whether it is Parliament

:29:11.:29:14.

that must trigger Article 50 to begin the process of the UK leaving

:29:15.:29:19.

the EU or whether the Government can do that with its prerogative powers.

:29:20.:29:23.

The Prime Minister already knows the judgement. Theresa May was told

:29:24.:29:28.

about it at 9.15am, the top lawyers involved in this case already know

:29:29.:29:32.

as well. They have had advance sight of this judgement. We will get it at

:29:33.:29:38.

9.30am in a minute's time, a five minute summary of the judgement and

:29:39.:29:41.

then well' get the full judgement online. Let's talk to our legal

:29:42.:29:48.

affairs expert Clive Coleman, in a nutshell, what have they got to

:29:49.:29:53.

decide? Well, it comes down to a simple issue, can ministers alone

:29:54.:29:57.

trigger Article 50 this process by which the UK leaves the EU? Can they

:29:58.:30:04.

do that using prerogative powers, executive powers or do they need the

:30:05.:30:09.

authority of an Act of Parliament to empower them to do that? That's the

:30:10.:30:14.

single issue that the court has to decide. There is a question about

:30:15.:30:18.

whether if there is Parliamentary legislation on this, Scotland and

:30:19.:30:20.

Wales and Northern Ireland should have a say in it?

:30:21.:30:27.

Absolutely, some say this is more than a political as you, because it

:30:28.:30:32.

is only a convention that says the devolved assemblies or Parliament

:30:33.:30:37.

have to give their consent. It is convention, it doesn't have legal

:30:38.:30:41.

force, but it will be interesting to hear what they have to say on that.

:30:42.:30:46.

Also interesting, the pressure on these 11 Supreme Court justices,

:30:47.:30:49.

because with the High Court decision, there was a lot of talk in

:30:50.:30:53.

the press, one headline was that they were enemies of the people. So

:30:54.:30:58.

there is political pressure on them. There is, they have got pretty tough

:30:59.:31:02.

hides, they will not be susceptible to that kind of pressure, we have an

:31:03.:31:08.

independent judiciary in this country, this is a critical part of

:31:09.:31:12.

our constitutional arrangement, and this demonstrates something very

:31:13.:31:16.

important - that nobody is above the law, including the Government. What

:31:17.:31:20.

is being argued by Gina Miller is that ministers are seeking to do

:31:21.:31:25.

something that is unlawful under our constitution, and the judicial

:31:26.:31:30.

review was triggered by two ordinary citizens, to have the right to go to

:31:31.:31:34.

court and ask the court to scrutinise whether the actions of

:31:35.:31:39.

ministers were lawful or not. Many people regard that as a pretty

:31:40.:31:48.

democratic part of our country. The 11 Supreme Court justices could be

:31:49.:31:53.

split on this, it could be a majority decision, say 7-4 something

:31:54.:31:57.

like that, and that will be explained. Lord Neuberger will let

:31:58.:32:00.

others know whether there are dissenting judgments, who they come

:32:01.:32:05.

from, they may be descending on a specific point, we will get the full

:32:06.:32:08.

picture from Lord Neuberger within minutes. We are just waiting for

:32:09.:32:13.

those 11 Supreme Court justices to come to the bench. And if it is

:32:14.:32:19.

against the government, and if it is for Gina miller, that means the

:32:20.:32:23.

Government pretty quickly have to push some legislation through

:32:24.:32:27.

Parliament. There is only one option if they lose, they will have to put

:32:28.:32:32.

a bill through parliament, and that means that the Government loses

:32:33.:32:35.

control of the process. It is a bit embarrassing. They didn't want to do

:32:36.:32:40.

it that way, but once a bill is put into Parliament, the Government

:32:41.:32:44.

ministers lose a little power, and Parliament gains power, so

:32:45.:32:49.

Parliament could decide to lay down amendments. I do not think there is

:32:50.:32:54.

any appetite for Parliament to block this process, they are not going to

:32:55.:32:57.

stand in a way of the Democratic juggernaut that was the referendum

:32:58.:33:02.

vote, but it becomes more difficult, somewhat embarrassing for the

:33:03.:33:06.

Government, and it may mess with the timetable that Theresa May has set

:33:07.:33:09.

herself to trigger by the end of March. So it becomes a messier, more

:33:10.:33:15.

difficult process. Lord Neuberger did say, before they went off to

:33:16.:33:19.

retire and consider their judgment, this is not about what we think

:33:20.:33:23.

about membership of the European Union, this is not about trying to

:33:24.:33:28.

rerun the referendum. Of course it isn't, some people have advertised

:33:29.:33:31.

it as bad, but the referendum results determined that we would

:33:32.:33:39.

leave the EU. This is about what the lawful mechanism is under our

:33:40.:33:43.

constitution, applying the rule of law, for that process to be

:33:44.:33:47.

triggered. You know, is it something that can be done at the stroke of a

:33:48.:33:51.

minister's pen, or is it something that needs the authority of

:33:52.:33:56.

Parliament in order to trigger it? And that is a legal question, and

:33:57.:34:00.

you need judges to determine that legal question. Well, we were

:34:01.:34:04.

expecting this judgment at half past, so it has been slightly

:34:05.:34:11.

delayed. We do not know whether they are still working out their

:34:12.:34:16.

judgment, still arguing! I doubt it! Do they just sit in a room and argue

:34:17.:34:21.

it out? About a week after the hearing ended, they meet together as

:34:22.:34:25.

a group of 11, they give their views, starting with the most junior

:34:26.:34:29.

justice, and after that I am sure there is some lively debate. Here we

:34:30.:34:35.

go! Here we go, they are now coming to the bench in the Supreme Court,

:34:36.:34:40.

the 11 Supreme Court Justices, and we will hear from Lord Neuberger arm

:34:41.:34:44.

of the president of the Supreme Court with this historic judgment.

:34:45.:35:03.

Judgment in the appeal between Miller and another and the Northern

:35:04.:35:07.

Ireland references. On the 1st of January 1973, the United Kingdom

:35:08.:35:12.

joined the European Economic Community, now the European Union,

:35:13.:35:18.

the EU. This was achieved by government ministers signing a

:35:19.:35:24.

treaty of accession and Parliament enacting the European Communities

:35:25.:35:31.

Act 1972. Over the next 40 years, developments in the EU resulted from

:35:32.:35:35.

further treaties, many of which were adopted in subsequent acts of

:35:36.:35:40.

parliament, and some of those acts curbed the exercise of the powers of

:35:41.:35:46.

UK ministers in EU institutions. One of those acts of Parliament was in

:35:47.:35:52.

2008, and it approved the inclusion of Article 50 into the EU treaties.

:35:53.:35:58.

In broad terms, Article 50 provides that a country wishing to leave the

:35:59.:36:04.

EU must give a notice in accordance with its own constitutional

:36:05.:36:09.

requirements, and that the EU treaties shall cease to apply to

:36:10.:36:16.

that country within two years. On the 23rd of June 2016, a UK wide

:36:17.:36:21.

referendum reduced a majority in favour of leaving the EU, and the

:36:22.:36:26.

Government then announced its intention to trigger Article 50. The

:36:27.:36:34.

issue in these proceedings have nothing to do with whether the UK

:36:35.:36:39.

should exit from the EU or the terms or timetable for that exit. The main

:36:40.:36:45.

issue is whether the Government can trigger Article 50 without the prior

:36:46.:36:52.

authority of an act of Parliament. The other issues concern the

:36:53.:36:56.

obligations of the UK Government and the devolution legislation before

:36:57.:37:04.

triggering Article 50, and in particular whether legislatures in

:37:05.:37:07.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland must be consulted. So far as the

:37:08.:37:14.

main issue was concerned, as a general rule, the Government has a

:37:15.:37:18.

prerogative power to withdraw from international treaties as it sees

:37:19.:37:24.

fit. However, the Government cannot exercise that power if it would

:37:25.:37:28.

thereby change UK laws unless it is authorised to do so by Parliament.

:37:29.:37:34.

The claimants argue that, as a result of leaving the EU, UK law

:37:35.:37:40.

will change and legal rights enjoyed by UK residents will be lost.

:37:41.:37:45.

Accordingly, they say, the Government cannot trigger Article 50

:37:46.:37:52.

unless authorised by Parliament. In reply, the Government argues that

:37:53.:37:57.

the 1972 act does not exclude the power for ministers to withdraw from

:37:58.:38:03.

the EU treaties, and that section two of the 1972 act actually caters

:38:04.:38:09.

for the exercise of such a power. Today, by a majority of 8-3, the

:38:10.:38:16.

Supreme Court rules that the Government cannot trigger Article 50

:38:17.:38:19.

without an act of Parliament authorising it to do so. Put

:38:20.:38:26.

briefly, the reasons given in a judgment written by all eight

:38:27.:38:31.

justices in the majority are as follows - section two of the 1972

:38:32.:38:37.

act provides that, whenever EU institutions make new laws, those

:38:38.:38:44.

new laws become part of UK law. The 1972 act therefore makes EU law an

:38:45.:38:51.

independent source of EU law until Parliament decides otherwise.

:38:52.:38:55.

Therefore, when the UK withdraws from the EU treaties, a source of UK

:38:56.:39:02.

law will be cut off. Further, certain rights enjoyed by UK

:39:03.:39:09.

citizens will be changed. Therefore, the Government cannot trigger

:39:10.:39:11.

Article 50 without Parliament authorising that course. We reject

:39:12.:39:18.

the Government's argument that section two caters for the

:39:19.:39:21.

possibility of the Government withdrawing from EU treaties. There

:39:22.:39:25.

is a vital difference between changes in UK law resulting from

:39:26.:39:32.

changes in EU law, and those are authorised by section two, and

:39:33.:39:36.

changes in UK law resulting from withdrawal from the EU treaties.

:39:37.:39:42.

Withdrawal affects a fundamental change by cutting off be source of

:39:43.:39:49.

EU law, as well as changing legal rights. The UK's constitutional

:39:50.:39:54.

arrangements requires such changes to be clearly authorised by

:39:55.:39:57.

Parliament, and the 1972 act does not do that. Indeed, it has the

:39:58.:40:08.

opposite effect. The referendum is of great little significance, but

:40:09.:40:11.

the act of Parliament which established it did not say what

:40:12.:40:14.

should happen as a result, so any change in the law to give effect to

:40:15.:40:19.

the referendum must be made in the only way permitted by the UK

:40:20.:40:22.

constitution, namely by an act of Parliament. To proceed otherwise

:40:23.:40:28.

would be a breach of settled constitutional principles stretching

:40:29.:40:37.

back many centuries. The dissenting justices consider the Government can

:40:38.:40:40.

trigger Article 50 without an authorising act of Parliament. Their

:40:41.:40:46.

view is that the 1972 act, taken with the 2008 act, renders the

:40:47.:40:51.

domestic effect of EU law conditional on the EU treaties

:40:52.:40:57.

applying to the UK. In their view, Parliament has not imposed any

:40:58.:41:00.

limitation on the Government's prerogative power to withdraw from

:41:01.:41:05.

the treaties, and if Article 50 is triggered, EU law will cease to have

:41:06.:41:11.

effect in UK law in accordance with the 1972 and 2008 acts. On the

:41:12.:41:17.

devolution issues, the court unanimously rules that UK ministers

:41:18.:41:24.

are not legally compelled to consult the devolved legislatures before

:41:25.:41:28.

triggering Article 50. The devolution statutes were enacted on

:41:29.:41:31.

the assumption that the UK would be a member of the EU, but they do not

:41:32.:41:37.

require it. Relations with the EU are a matter for the UK Government.

:41:38.:41:44.

The convention plays an important part in the operation of the UK

:41:45.:41:48.

constitution, but the policing of its scope and its operation is not a

:41:49.:41:54.

matter for the courts. We thank all those who have played a part in

:41:55.:41:57.

helping us determine these important legal questions. Copies of the full

:41:58.:42:02.

judgment and of the summary version are now available on the Supreme

:42:03.:42:15.

Court website. The court is now adjourned.

:42:16.:42:21.

So that is Lord Neuberger, president of the Supreme Court, delivering

:42:22.:42:24.

that judgment, which makes legal, constitutional and political

:42:25.:42:30.

history, and as many people had speculated, the Government have lost

:42:31.:42:35.

this case, 8-3 was the decision. There were 11 Supreme Court Justices

:42:36.:42:40.

hearing it. Initially, some people said that the law on this was pretty

:42:41.:42:47.

clear, but it might even be an 11-0 result against the Government, but

:42:48.:42:52.

it is a split judgment, 8-3. Lord Neuberger was making it clear that

:42:53.:42:58.

he believes that, because the British Parliament enshrined EU law

:42:59.:43:06.

into British law and gave British citizens rights, then only

:43:07.:43:08.

Parliament can take away those rights that it has conferred. And he

:43:09.:43:14.

said, to proceed otherwise, in other words for Parliament not to be the

:43:15.:43:19.

one that triggers Article 50, would be a breach of settled

:43:20.:43:22.

constitutional principles stretching back many centuries. So that

:43:23.:43:27.

judgment was very clear. Let's get some thoughts on it from our legal

:43:28.:43:30.

affairs correspondent Clive Coleman, who has a copy of the full judgment,

:43:31.:43:34.

which I know you will be ploughing through later on! But we have just

:43:35.:43:38.

got the five minute summary there, and it was pretty much as we

:43:39.:43:42.

expected, the Government all along were not really expected to win

:43:43.:43:48.

here. No, the Government face a major problem in this case,

:43:49.:43:52.

essentially arguing against Parliamentary sovereignty. We don't

:43:53.:43:56.

have a written constitution in this country, but the founding principle

:43:57.:44:00.

of our constitutional arrangement is that Parliament is sovereign,

:44:01.:44:03.

Parliament creates the laws, and only Parliament camera move those

:44:04.:44:06.

laws, and that was the real problem for the off. Some thought that I

:44:07.:44:13.

come and very ingenious, arguing that effectively the rights

:44:14.:44:20.

enshrined were not nailed down statutory rights. -- some thought

:44:21.:44:27.

that the Government had a very ingenious argument. A treaty is

:44:28.:44:30.

something where the royal prerogative can be used, it can be

:44:31.:44:35.

used to reach in and remove those rights. The Supreme Court has this

:44:36.:44:39.

morning, by a majority of 8-3, said that is not the case, these are

:44:40.:44:47.

rights enshrined in UK law... And here is the Attorney General for the

:44:48.:44:53.

Government. I want to thank the Supreme Court

:44:54.:44:56.

for the careful consideration they have given to this matter. It is a

:44:57.:45:00.

case that it was wholly appropriate for the highest court in the land to

:45:01.:45:06.

decide. Of course, the Government is disappointed with the outcome. But

:45:07.:45:11.

we had the good fortune to live in a country where everyone, every

:45:12.:45:16.

individual, every organisation, even government, is subject to the rule

:45:17.:45:20.

of law. So the Government will comply with the judgment of the

:45:21.:45:24.

court and do all that is necessary to implement it.

:45:25.:45:28.

The court has been very clear throughout the hearing of this case

:45:29.:45:33.

that it has not been deciding whether the United Kingdom should or

:45:34.:45:39.

should not leave the European Union. The people of the United Kingdom

:45:40.:45:46.

have already made that decision. And now enacting that decision will be a

:45:47.:45:50.

political matter and not a legal matter. And so, the Secretary of

:45:51.:45:56.

State for Exiting the European Union will make a further statement in

:45:57.:46:00.

Parliament later today. Thank you very much indeed. So that's Jeremy

:46:01.:46:11.

Wright, the Attorney-General, speaking there on behalf of the

:46:12.:46:15.

Government with immediate reaction to that decision, that judgement

:46:16.:46:21.

from the Supreme Court that, eight to three judgement by the 11 Supreme

:46:22.:46:26.

Court justices that it is Parliament that has to trigger Article 50. The

:46:27.:46:30.

Government cannot do it alone through its prerogative powers as it

:46:31.:46:34.

wanted to. Jeremy Wright, the Attorney-General saying it was

:46:35.:46:37.

wholly appropriate for the highest court in the land to hear this and

:46:38.:46:41.

in That the Government will comply and do that is needed now to trigger

:46:42.:46:46.

Article 50. We gather that the Government already have several

:46:47.:46:51.

pieces of draft legislation that they're planning to put to

:46:52.:46:55.

Parliament. They will chose which Draft Bill they put to Parliament,

:46:56.:46:59.

depending on the exact wording of the judgement when they've had a

:47:00.:47:02.

chance to read all the details of the judgement itself. The Prime

:47:03.:47:06.

Minister, Theresa May, we gather was given a copy of the judgement at

:47:07.:47:13.

9.15am so she knew ahead of Lord Neuberger telling us, she knew that

:47:14.:47:17.

decision. So that's the latest from the Supreme Court, Victoria, 8-3 is

:47:18.:47:24.

the decision. Let's just have a another listen in. This is the

:47:25.:47:31.

solicitor for another of the complainedants, David Greene.

:47:32.:47:37.

-- complainants, David Greene. The rightful process as well as the role

:47:38.:47:41.

that the law plays in ensuring a lawful political process. This has

:47:42.:47:47.

been a unique and difficult fight where the legal issues were often

:47:48.:47:53.

clouded by a polarized and politically charged backdrop. Yet,

:47:54.:47:59.

as has been made clear by the Supreme Court and the divisional

:48:00.:48:04.

court, this is a case not about whether we should withdraw from the

:48:05.:48:07.

European Union, but about the constitution of the UK and the

:48:08.:48:10.

relationship between Parliament and Government. The result is a

:48:11.:48:15.

reassertion, by the court, that we live this a Parliamentary democracy

:48:16.:48:20.

in which having been elected, our MPs in Parliament have the sovereign

:48:21.:48:24.

power to grant rights and remove them. A power only constricted by

:48:25.:48:29.

consideration of Human Rights and the rule of law. These rights affect

:48:30.:48:36.

people's lives, family lives, where they live, where they work, their

:48:37.:48:41.

very right-to-work in this country, they are vital rights in day-to-day

:48:42.:48:47.

life. The court has decided that the rights attaching to our membership

:48:48.:48:50.

of the European Union, were given by Parliament and can only be taken

:48:51.:48:55.

away by Parliament. This is a victory for democracy and the rule

:48:56.:49:02.

of law. We should all welcome it. Some have asked what is point of

:49:03.:49:04.

this judgement now that the Prime Minister has said she will give

:49:05.:49:10.

Parliament a vote on the Brexit deal after negotiations? We can speculate

:49:11.:49:14.

that she may not have done so had not the cases of my client and Gina

:49:15.:49:21.

Miller been brought to the court. Is Mrs May's recent concession

:49:22.:49:25.

sufficient? The answer is no. Having served the Article 50 notice we will

:49:26.:49:30.

withdraw from the union on the second anniversary whether a deal is

:49:31.:49:34.

done or not and whether Parliament approves it or not. Parliament may

:49:35.:49:39.

then be left with a choice - vote yes for the deal put to them or we

:49:40.:49:44.

leave with no deal at all. The time for the vote then is now. On the

:49:45.:49:49.

principle of withdrawal and the inevitable removal of citizens'

:49:50.:49:53.

rights that will follow both for citizens here and indeed, UK

:49:54.:49:57.

citizens in the European Union. In considering an Article 50 statute,

:49:58.:50:03.

we are sure that MPs will have those rights in mind. Finally, this is

:50:04.:50:09.

also a victory for our judicial process, both my client and his co

:50:10.:50:16.

claimant Gina Miller has received hate mail of a vile and threatening

:50:17.:50:23.

nature, and yet have had their case heard and were treated by the courts

:50:24.:50:28.

with the greatest respect. Judges were subject to intense media

:50:29.:50:32.

scrutiny and indim tation. A determination has been made based

:50:33.:50:36.

purely on the legal issues which is as it should be. The judges are not

:50:37.:50:41.

the enemies of the people. They are for the people to stop arbitrary

:50:42.:50:47.

action by a Government. The Government and the lorge chancellor

:50:48.:50:51.

should today confirm its unquestioning supporting for the

:50:52.:50:54.

rights of the claimants in this case and their respect for the court's

:50:55.:50:58.

decision this. Is a victory for Parliamentary democracy and the rule

:50:59.:51:02.

of law and whatever changes we are about to face, as a result of

:51:03.:51:07.

Brexit, it is reassuring that the sacred principles have today been

:51:08.:51:10.

reaffirmed and will hopefully endure. Thank you.

:51:11.:51:19.

So that's David Greene who is a solicitor for one of the claimants,

:51:20.:51:23.

a hairdresser, along with Gina Miller, the businesswoman who

:51:24.:51:27.

originally brought this case saying that Parliament should decide on

:51:28.:51:31.

this. He said it was a victory for democracy and the rule of law. Let's

:51:32.:51:37.

listen in. We've got another of the participants in the case. Involved

:51:38.:51:42.

in this historic case since the outset representing the two million

:51:43.:51:46.

or so British citizens who live in other parts of Europe. We are

:51:47.:51:50.

delighted and relieved by the decision of the Supreme Court today.

:51:51.:51:56.

There can now be proper, control by the MPs, the British people elect

:51:57.:52:01.

over the process of the UK leaving the EU. Together with three million

:52:02.:52:07.

nationals of other European countries who live here, we are the

:52:08.:52:11.

people who will be most profoundly affected by all of this. Everything

:52:12.:52:18.

people in Britain take for granted in their daily lives rests for us,

:52:19.:52:23.

on our being EU citizens. From being able to work, to accessing vital

:52:24.:52:27.

healthcare and our children's education. Let me give you an

:52:28.:52:33.

example. Healthcare is absolutely key. Many UK pensioners are entitled

:52:34.:52:38.

to join the healthcare systems of the countries in which they live.

:52:39.:52:45.

These rights would be lost and thousands of UK expatriates unable

:52:46.:52:48.

to continue to receive the healthcare to which they are

:52:49.:52:54.

entitled. My friend Paul from the village we live in, sadly now

:52:55.:52:59.

deceased, lived in Exeter four-and-a-half years because the

:53:00.:53:06.

French healthcare system was able to provide him with treatment that our

:53:07.:53:12.

wonderful NHS was not able to do. I have cancer for the third time and

:53:13.:53:17.

yet treatment in France. So it is a matter of life or death. Despite

:53:18.:53:21.

this, a large number of us would not permit me to vote in the referendum

:53:22.:53:27.

at all. Many of us now face losing our basic citizenship rights without

:53:28.:53:32.

ever having a say so. The rights of these millions of people went

:53:33.:53:36.

largely overlooked in the referendum. Proper Parliamentary

:53:37.:53:42.

scrut nigh now offers the best chance for our circumstances to be

:53:43.:53:45.

considered in the lead up to the Brexit negotiations. This is the

:53:46.:53:51.

human side of Brexit. We would urge the Government not to use us as

:53:52.:53:56.

bargaining chips. We will be calling on the Government and the European

:53:57.:54:01.

Commission to ensure hard guarantees are put in place about what the

:54:02.:54:07.

future holds for such a large number of ordinary people. We ask that

:54:08.:54:14.

governments across the EU do the same. I would like to thank our

:54:15.:54:20.

excellent legal team and the 11 Supreme Court justices. That's John

:54:21.:54:27.

Shaw. He is from an organisation called Fair Deal For Ex-pats. You

:54:28.:54:32.

have been watching history being made by 8-3, the Supreme Court

:54:33.:54:36.

zwrisz ruled that the Government cannot trigger Article 50, that's

:54:37.:54:41.

the process of leaving the EU, without an Act of Parliament. Let's

:54:42.:54:46.

go to Norman, our political guru, reaction from the Labour leader,

:54:47.:54:52.

Jeremy Corbyn. Hi Vic. So Jeremy Corbyn has put out a statement. The

:54:53.:54:58.

significant thing as expected. He says Labour will not frustrate the

:54:59.:55:01.

process for invoking Article 50 Article 50. So Labour will not vote

:55:02.:55:06.

against Article 50. However, here is the but. Let's cross back. Gina

:55:07.:55:11.

Miller is probably just talking now. In November, in a case that went to

:55:12.:55:16.

the very heart of our constitution and how we are governed. Only

:55:17.:55:21.

Parliament can grant rights to the British people and only Parliament

:55:22.:55:27.

can take them away. No Prime Minister, no Government, can expect

:55:28.:55:32.

to be unanswerable or unchallenged. Parliament alone is sovereign. This

:55:33.:55:39.

ruling today means that MPs, we have elected, will rightfully have the

:55:40.:55:45.

opportunity to bring their invaluable experience and expertise

:55:46.:55:49.

to bear in helping the Government select the best course if in the

:55:50.:55:54.

forthcoming Brexit negotiations. Negotiations that will frame our

:55:55.:56:00.

place in the world and all our destinies to come. There is no doubt

:56:01.:56:07.

that Brexit is the most decisive, divisive issue of a generation. But

:56:08.:56:13.

this case was about the legal process, not politics. Today's

:56:14.:56:19.

decision has created legal certainty based on our democratic process and

:56:20.:56:24.

provides the legal foundations for the Government to trigger Article

:56:25.:56:29.

50. I want to express my gratitude to the Supreme Court, my team, Lord

:56:30.:56:40.

Pannick and my other counsel for being to conduct themselves with

:56:41.:56:44.

such integrity and thoughtfulness in the face of extraordinary and

:56:45.:56:51.

unwarranted criticism. In Britain, we are lucky, we are fortunate to

:56:52.:56:57.

have the ability to voice legitimate concerns and views as part of a

:56:58.:57:02.

shared society. I have therefore been shocked by the levels of

:57:03.:57:07.

personal abuse that I have received from many quarters over the last

:57:08.:57:16.

seven months for simply bringing and asking a legitimate question. I

:57:17.:57:21.

sincerely hope that going forwards people who stand in positions of

:57:22.:57:27.

power and profile are much quicker in condemning those who cross the

:57:28.:57:32.

lines of common decency and mutual respect. Lastly, I would like to

:57:33.:57:37.

wholeheartedly thank those who have sent me the most heart warming

:57:38.:57:42.

messages of support. They have truly helped to bolster me in this most

:57:43.:57:46.

arduous process. Let's go back to Norman. You were

:57:47.:57:55.

explaining how Labour are going to approach this historic ruling,

:57:56.:57:58.

Norman. Yeah. Yeah. The key thing to understand is that Labour are not

:57:59.:58:01.

going to oppose triggering Article 50. But Jeremy Corbyn has set out a

:58:02.:58:07.

range of amendments which he is going to table. Let me run you

:58:08.:58:11.

through them. There are three key amendments. Amendment one is he will

:58:12.:58:16.

press for tariff-free access to the single market. Amendment two is a

:58:17.:58:21.

guarantee of workers rights. Both those can probably be agreed by

:58:22.:58:24.

Theresa May. The killer amendment will be around what he calls a

:58:25.:58:27.

meaningful vote. What does that mean? It means that Theresa May has

:58:28.:58:31.

promised there will be a vote at the end of the whole Brexit process on

:58:32.:58:36.

the deal she negotiates. Now, the view in Team Corbyn, that's not good

:58:37.:58:40.

enough because basically, it will be a take it or leave it deal. What

:58:41.:58:45.

Labour will try and press for is a vote, before Mrs May signs on the

:58:46.:58:50.

dotted line. So MPs will get a chance, before Mrs May as it were,

:58:51.:58:53.

takes us out of the European Union, to say, "Hang on. That deal is not

:58:54.:58:58.

good enough. Go back and get a better deal." That's the critical

:58:59.:59:03.

amendment which Labour are going to table if it is expected we get this

:59:04.:59:09.

Government Bill. The short Bill. The other reaction is from the Liberal

:59:10.:59:13.

Democrats. Tim Farron. The Liberal Democrats are clear we demand a vote

:59:14.:59:18.

of the people on the final deal. So reiterating that he will press for a

:59:19.:59:24.

second referendum to approve the final deal done by Mrs May. So we

:59:25.:59:28.

are getting a sense of the likely battles ahead. Yes, Article 50, MPs

:59:29.:59:34.

will probably, probably, approve that, but they are going to try and

:59:35.:59:39.

insert in that all sorts of conditions. Labour to try and get

:59:40.:59:42.

what they call a meaningful vote. And the Liberal Democrats, to try

:59:43.:59:45.

and ensure there is a second referendum before we leave the EU.

:59:46.:59:49.

So we're getting a sense of the battle lines ahead. So there will be

:59:50.:59:54.

some wrangling then in the Commons. How could that impact on Theresa

:59:55.:59:58.

May's timetable for triggering this whole thing by the end of March?

:59:59.:00:02.

Well, I think the truth is, Theresa May is going to be able to trigger

:00:03.:00:06.

Article 50 and yes, she is going to be able to do it by March because

:00:07.:00:14.

although there are plenty of MPs who want to frame the way she goes about

:00:15.:00:18.

this negotiations, there are amendments that are going to be

:00:19.:00:21.

tabled. No MP, well there are a few, but not many MPs want to be seen to

:00:22.:00:26.

be publicly seen, to be blocking Article 50. Because frankly it will

:00:27.:00:31.

look as if they are defying the will of the people, that they are

:00:32.:00:34.

spitting in the face of the referendum result. They don't want

:00:35.:00:40.

that. Not many are going to vote against triggering Article 50. The

:00:41.:00:44.

real political tussle is over the terms of any deal that Mrs May

:00:45.:00:48.

eventually strikes with the EU. OK, thank you, Norman. I know you'll be

:00:49.:00:52.

back with us, bringing more reaction.

:00:53.:00:59.

By girl says elite judges voting in favour of the elite, this is

:01:00.:01:10.

disgusting. -- Might. Brigid says, a sensible verdict, now it is up to

:01:11.:01:14.

MPs to stop Brexit, they brave enough? Yes! There is not an

:01:15.:01:22.

overview to stop Brexit, let's be realistic. I think that is probably

:01:23.:01:28.

right, because the majority of MPs will vote in favour of Article 50,

:01:29.:01:32.

Jeremy Corbyn is right to be tabling amendments, we will not have a

:01:33.:01:36.

meaningful vote, but now we know there will be the hardest of hard

:01:37.:01:41.

Brexits, they are prepared for us not to be in the single market, or

:01:42.:01:46.

the customs union, for us to tumble out of the EU into a fantasy world

:01:47.:01:50.

where they imagine we will strike global trade deals. We always have

:01:51.:01:55.

been a global trading nation, we have to get some reality back into

:01:56.:01:58.

this process, so at the end of it, if we get to a point where we have

:01:59.:02:02.

the worst set of outcomes, which is where I feel we may end up, the

:02:03.:02:06.

right thing to do then is to allow the British people, one small in an

:02:07.:02:12.

ultra-democratic moment, to confirm whether they really want the hard

:02:13.:02:16.

Brexit that they are likely to get, including the expats and

:02:17.:02:19.

16-year-olds who did not get a vote last time. I want the reaction of

:02:20.:02:25.

voters to the ruling from the Supreme Court this morning, then I

:02:26.:02:29.

will ask you, if you were to vote before Britain leaves the EU, on the

:02:30.:02:34.

deal that Theresa May has come up with. Your reaction first of all? I

:02:35.:02:39.

am happy with the ruling, Parliament do need to have a vote on what

:02:40.:02:43.

happens, it is Parliamentary sovereignty, that is what we voted

:02:44.:02:44.

to leave the EU four. Tomasz Dominic team-mate pre-empted this by saying

:02:45.:03:03.

she would give a vote to Parliament. -- Theresa May. The solicitor for

:03:04.:03:08.

the Dos Santos made an interesting point, it is pretty clear that for

:03:09.:03:14.

the Remain as, they regard this as a rearguard aim to stop Brexit, it is

:03:15.:03:19.

somehow about stopping Brexit in them mines. What you think?

:03:20.:03:26.

Absolutely the right decision, we are here because the Government

:03:27.:03:28.

failed to plan adequately for what would happen in the event of Brexit.

:03:29.:03:33.

They said they wouldn't use public money, but they used public money to

:03:34.:03:36.

argue for one side, and they did not allow the civil service to plan

:03:37.:03:40.

adequately for what happened if we left. I expected this from the

:03:41.:03:46.

judges, so I am not wholly disappointed, but this is another

:03:47.:03:51.

example of frustrating the will of the people. I just want it to carry

:03:52.:03:55.

on. I will come back to you in a second, Norman, you have reaction

:03:56.:04:00.

from the SNP. From the SNP, they say they are going to table 50 serious

:04:01.:04:08.

and substantive amendments to Article 50. They are also calling

:04:09.:04:11.

for the publication of a government white paper on its plans for Brexit,

:04:12.:04:16.

something the Government has said they are not going to do. But 50

:04:17.:04:20.

serious and substantive amendments. That is an awful lot of amendments,

:04:21.:04:24.

I have to say, I suspect most of those will not be ruled in order by

:04:25.:04:32.

these Speaker of the House of Commons, but the SNP signalling that

:04:33.:04:35.

they want to lead the charge against the triggering of Article 50. We

:04:36.:04:39.

know Nicola Sturgeon has already drawn up a fairly firm battle line,

:04:40.:04:42.

warning that if Theresa May goes down the line of hard Brexit, it

:04:43.:04:48.

makes another independence referendum more likely. But a signal

:04:49.:04:51.

from the SNP that they are going to go toe to toe with the Government

:04:52.:04:56.

over Article 50. Thank you very much, Owen Smith said the SNP just

:04:57.:05:03.

showing off. 50? Really 50 substantive amendments? The EU has a

:05:04.:05:07.

significant impact on jobs, I think about university jobs, the food and

:05:08.:05:12.

tricks sector, the single market. These are threatened by this. If the

:05:13.:05:16.

Government was confident in what it was doing, it would not be afraid of

:05:17.:05:21.

Parliamentary scrutiny, so I am not sure why the Government was afraid

:05:22.:05:24.

of Parliamentary scrutiny over actions that will have an impact on

:05:25.:05:28.

each and every one of us in every part of the UK. What does it mean

:05:29.:05:33.

for the devolved assemblies, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh

:05:34.:05:36.

Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly? There will be some

:05:37.:05:40.

annoyance, certainly in the Scottish Government, they would hoping the

:05:41.:05:44.

Scottish Government would get a vote, so MSPs could express their

:05:45.:05:47.

views on Brexit and Article 50, and we know the majority of them were

:05:48.:05:55.

opposed. Now the Supreme Court is saying, no, legally, you don't have

:05:56.:05:58.

to do that. I have not spoken to Nicola Sturgeon's people, but the

:05:59.:06:01.

question for her is whether she decides to hold a symbolic vote

:06:02.:06:05.

anyway, just to underscore opinion in Scotland, is that a way of

:06:06.:06:09.

building momentum for her argument that if Theresa May is going for

:06:10.:06:14.

hard Brexit, it will increase momentum for an independence

:06:15.:06:17.

referendum? I mean, we don't know. I suspect she is sitting down now with

:06:18.:06:22.

advisers and trying to work out, OK, how do we play this now that the

:06:23.:06:27.

Supreme Court is saying we don't automatically get a vote? Let's talk

:06:28.:06:31.

more to Hywel Williams from the Welsh party Plaid Cymru, Wales voted

:06:32.:06:36.

to leave the EU, but his party wanted to remain. Gavin Robinson is

:06:37.:06:42.

from the DUP, Northern Ireland voted to remain, his party wanted to

:06:43.:06:47.

leave. I am aware I have not got reaction from half of the voters, we

:06:48.:06:52.

will be with you, do not worry. Hywel Williams, first of all, UK

:06:53.:06:56.

ministers, according to the Supreme Court Justices, do not legally have

:06:57.:07:00.

to consult the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern

:07:01.:07:04.

Ireland December - your reaction. I am disappointed, clearly the needs

:07:05.:07:13.

of people in Wales have been overruled by central London, I think

:07:14.:07:16.

we should all be properly consulted, and that is the unified view, by the

:07:17.:07:21.

way, of both the governments and the official opposition in Wales, as we

:07:22.:07:25.

showed yesterday when we published the white paper. Gavin? Today is the

:07:26.:07:29.

last day of the Northern Ireland executive, we have a political

:07:30.:07:34.

crisis at home, so even if there had been a requirement, we would not

:07:35.:07:37.

have had an executive to respond to that. But it is not a surprising

:07:38.:07:42.

outcome at all. The UK is not a federal state, we are a union, our

:07:43.:07:47.

Attorney General was very clear back in November and December that there

:07:48.:07:53.

was not one question which suggested that the devolved institutions would

:07:54.:07:57.

have a veto on this process. My constituency voted to leave, our

:07:58.:08:01.

country voted to leave, and the Government will seek can secure the

:08:02.:08:05.

approval of Parliament to enact Article 50. Hywel Williams, what are

:08:06.:08:09.

you going to do, if anything? We will be putting our own amendments

:08:10.:08:15.

down. How many? I don't think it will be 50, but we will be

:08:16.:08:20.

supporting our friends in the SNP and possibly also the Liberal

:08:21.:08:22.

Democrats and the Labour Party. There will be enough MPs to vote to

:08:23.:08:28.

trigger... It is a Parliamentary process, a matter of debate. You

:08:29.:08:33.

cannot say nothing will change, who knows? Of course, it is a process,

:08:34.:08:37.

not an event. People should realise this is going to go on for years,

:08:38.:08:42.

and we will be having debates like this and stating a very consistent

:08:43.:08:48.

standpoint. Back to Norman, we heard from the Government's lawyer not so

:08:49.:08:55.

long ago that they were disappointed to lose this case, reaction from

:08:56.:08:59.

Number Ten, Norman. We have got words now from Number Ten, a defiant

:09:00.:09:04.

message despite losing today, and a determined message to press ahead

:09:05.:09:08.

with legislation to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, as Mrs May

:09:09.:09:13.

said. Let me read you the e-mail they have sent me, the British

:09:14.:09:17.

people voted to leave the EU, and the Government will deliver on the

:09:18.:09:20.

verdict, triggering Article 50 by the end of March. In other words, no

:09:21.:09:26.

change, and it goes on to say, today's ruling does nothing to

:09:27.:09:30.

change that. In effect, OK, the judges have spoken, we will proceed

:09:31.:09:36.

with Plan A. We suspect? Respect the Supreme Court's decision and will

:09:37.:09:41.

set out our next steps to Parliament shortly, which will probably be this

:09:42.:09:48.

afternoon, when we will hear from David Davis, who was presumably

:09:49.:09:52.

going to say, right, we are now going to introduce legislation as

:09:53.:09:55.

the Supreme Court said. The key thing for many of us is to see the

:09:56.:09:59.

bill, and all the indications are it is going to be an extraordinarily

:10:00.:10:07.

short bill, two clauses, and the reason the Government have stripped

:10:08.:10:10.

it back to this very minimal as piece of legislation is the less

:10:11.:10:14.

words there are, the less Frasers, the less scope there is for MPs to

:10:15.:10:18.

table amendments, and their hope is that it will prove very difficult

:10:19.:10:24.

for opposition MPs to successfully get amendments tabled to this bill,

:10:25.:10:27.

and that they will be ruled out of order by the clerk of the House of

:10:28.:10:32.

Commons. That said, do not doubt how ingenious, there are loads of

:10:33.:10:35.

lawyers in Parliament, they will find ways to table amendments, but

:10:36.:10:38.

as far as possible the Government wants to minimise that. Watch out

:10:39.:10:43.

for the timetable from David Davis, house with does the government

:10:44.:10:47.

Matchroom. They have aids week stops to do that. -- how swift does the

:10:48.:10:57.

Government move? There is a big EU jamboree in March, and they want to

:10:58.:11:00.

get it done before that, or it will be a bit embarrassing. They have

:11:01.:11:04.

really got seven weeks, they lose about a week for Parliamentary

:11:05.:11:08.

recess, down to six weeks. I think what we will see is the Government

:11:09.:11:17.

will probably clear out, -- will probably clear at House of Commons

:11:18.:11:20.

business, leaving them acres of time to deal with the House of Lords, who

:11:21.:11:25.

could be much more problematic. But that detail is what we would expect

:11:26.:11:29.

or hope to get from David Davis this afternoon. But an interesting

:11:30.:11:32.

message of defiance, I would suggest, from Number Ten. And you

:11:33.:11:38.

will hear David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, live on BBC News, of

:11:39.:11:39.

course. In the last hour, the UK

:11:40.:11:45.

Supreme Court has ruled that Parliament must give authorisation

:11:46.:11:49.

to the Government before Prime Minister Theresa May can

:11:50.:11:51.

trigger Article 50 to formally Let's get reaction from our

:11:52.:12:06.

politicians here and our voters from around the UK, from the SNP, Stephen

:12:07.:12:11.

Gethins, your reaction? Well, obviously, it is good that

:12:12.:12:15.

Parliament will have a say, disappointed that the devolved

:12:16.:12:18.

administrations will not. Critically, the judge did say that

:12:19.:12:22.

was a political decision. Are we a partnership of equals, do the

:12:23.:12:26.

devolved administration still count? That is a decision for the

:12:27.:12:30.

Government. Theresa Villiers, your government has lost, how do you

:12:31.:12:35.

react? Lord Neuberger is right that this is about process, so the

:12:36.:12:39.

important thing is for Parliament to get on and table Article 50

:12:40.:12:43.

according to the timetable set by the Government, and that is how to

:12:44.:12:46.

respect the result of the referendum. If the Government had

:12:47.:12:50.

not appealed, you could be cracking on. I think we can still stick with

:12:51.:12:55.

the timetable, the good news is the confirmation that this is not a

:12:56.:12:59.

matter for the devolved assemblies. If the Supreme Court had ruled in a

:13:00.:13:05.

different way... As a devolved parliament, you have to keep up with

:13:06.:13:12.

the devolution set up. Critically, the UK Parliament has never

:13:13.:13:16.

legislated for an area that is a responsibility of the Scottish

:13:17.:13:19.

Parliament without the Scottish Parliament's consent. Do you think

:13:20.:13:23.

we should give our consent to the areas under with the Scottish

:13:24.:13:27.

Parliament's responsibility? It is clear that European Union matters

:13:28.:13:31.

are reserved, that is clear in the settlement, and it would have been a

:13:32.:13:34.

radical change to our constitution if the Supreme Court had said

:13:35.:13:38.

something else. Our behalf of the Lib Dems, Tom Brake. This is a very

:13:39.:13:44.

embarrassing result for the Government, because the Supreme

:13:45.:13:46.

Court have said that if Theresa May had progressed in the way she had

:13:47.:13:49.

wanted to, it would have been illegal. So no planning was actually

:13:50.:13:58.

done in respect of this. What the Supreme Court has said, Parliament

:13:59.:14:01.

is sovereign, if the Government are going to come forward with a one

:14:02.:14:06.

line bill, I am not sure that sort of truly reflects what the Supreme

:14:07.:14:09.

Court has said about Parliament being sovereign. So I hope that we

:14:10.:14:13.

will not see the Government attempting to truncate the process,

:14:14.:14:17.

to abandon all the Parliamentary conventions that exist around the

:14:18.:14:21.

timetabling of bills, the time that is allowed to debate them, and I

:14:22.:14:26.

think there is the potential, perhaps around the meaningful vote

:14:27.:14:31.

that Jeremy Corbyn is talking about, to get Labour, the Liberal

:14:32.:14:35.

Democrats, the SNP and indeed some Conservatives on board to really

:14:36.:14:40.

challenge the Government on how they are intending to proceed. Suzanne

:14:41.:14:46.

Evans, Ukip. I am disappointed to hear people continuing with their

:14:47.:14:49.

threats to frustrate this process. The ball is in Parliament's court,

:14:50.:14:53.

it is up to them to respect the will of the people and not keep

:14:54.:14:56.

frustrating this. Please, do what the people wanted you to do, let's

:14:57.:15:02.

get out of the EU as soon as possible. Reaction from you as a

:15:03.:15:06.

voter, good morning. I think the crucial thing to recognise is that

:15:07.:15:12.

this Government does not like scrutiny, we found that yesterday

:15:13.:15:17.

with the Trident misfire. It doesn't like questions, and it doesn't like

:15:18.:15:21.

looking at amendments. It is crucial that Parliament have that ability to

:15:22.:15:27.

proposed amendments to bills. If it is a one line bill, the Government

:15:28.:15:30.

is being pretty much and democratic as anything. -- undemocratic.

:15:31.:15:39.

What about yourself? I'm pleased with the judgement. It is the common

:15:40.:15:46.

sense thing to do, but the work will come after and accept that we have

:15:47.:15:50.

got to trigger Article 50, but that's the process. That's when the

:15:51.:15:54.

work starts. We need to get as much into this Bill that's coming out

:15:55.:15:58.

that enables us to fight. To fight what? Well, I don't particularly

:15:59.:16:03.

want to live in our British kay men islands. I want it to be a country

:16:04.:16:09.

that has industry, that we can people have rights, workers rights,

:16:10.:16:14.

all the things that we got under the European Union. You voted Leave. How

:16:15.:16:24.

do you react to the ruling today? I come from an area what's been

:16:25.:16:30.

blighted, blighted by EU rules. It lost out considerably and a lot of

:16:31.:16:36.

people I know have voted Brexit and supported Ukip purely because for

:16:37.:16:40.

them Labour hasn't represented them. OK. In terms of the ruling today...

:16:41.:16:48.

I will bring it back to that. I think technically, the Government

:16:49.:16:52.

has the ruling, the Government has won because it is still going to

:16:53.:17:01.

happen. It's only a few lead weights along the way. You can place as many

:17:02.:17:05.

clauses as you wish. The Government is determined that it will be no

:17:06.:17:11.

more than two inserted. She wants complete clarity upon this because

:17:12.:17:17.

people in general within the country as a whole, we're tired of the

:17:18.:17:21.

jargon. What's best for us? We know what's best for us. We're sick of

:17:22.:17:27.

the nanny state and we just want to hopefully go along with the correct

:17:28.:17:31.

procedure. I'm quite supportive of what the Government is trying to do

:17:32.:17:35.

because I think they're trying to be honest with people in the only way

:17:36.:17:42.

she can be, Theresa May, I don't think she is a bad Prime Minister. I

:17:43.:17:50.

supported Remain. I think the fact that the unelected House of Lords

:17:51.:17:53.

will have a vote and the Assemblies and the Scottish Parliament won't is

:17:54.:17:57.

a disgrace. Personally very disappointed to hear that from

:17:58.:18:03.

Teresa Villiers who was our Secretary of State for Northern

:18:04.:18:06.

Ireland, who knows the hard Brexit is against our interests and I think

:18:07.:18:11.

it is another example of the disdain that this Tory Government and the

:18:12.:18:14.

last one has shown for Northern Ireland in particular and the

:18:15.:18:19.

devolved regions. I'm going to say thank you to our

:18:20.:18:25.

guests. Thank you for time and your patience. We watched history being

:18:26.:18:28.

made. Let's go back to the Supreme Court and Ben Brown.

:18:29.:18:33.

Yes, Victoria, I've got two of the key lawyers with me here from this

:18:34.:18:39.

case. The lawyers representing the two claimants, Gina Miller the

:18:40.:18:45.

business come and the hairdresser. James, represents Gina Miller,

:18:46.:18:50.

solicitor for Gina Miller and David Greene is a solicitor. You must be

:18:51.:18:54.

delighted, an 8-3 majority? Very, very pleased. Right decision, but

:18:55.:19:00.

very pleased. You can never predict anything, but relieved as well. What

:19:01.:19:05.

about you David, 8-3, were you maybe hoping for a unanimous decision from

:19:06.:19:09.

the justices? From a law of point of view, it doesn't matter whether it

:19:10.:19:12.

is majority or not, that's the decision is majority. That judges

:19:13.:19:17.

are willing and do express their views is a great part of the

:19:18.:19:23.

process. We had an e-mail into the Victoria Derbyshire programme from a

:19:24.:19:27.

viewer saying, "Why do I bother to vote when you have all this legal

:19:28.:19:31.

process?" People think they voted in a referendum for a result and it has

:19:32.:19:35.

been challenged in the courts? We made it clear and the courts made it

:19:36.:19:39.

clear, this is not about shall we withdraw or stay in? It is not about

:19:40.:19:44.

the Brexit or the remain argument. It is purely a point of law and this

:19:45.:19:48.

is about people's rights. I think the message we should get from this,

:19:49.:19:54.

it is about people's rights. For instance, citizens living in France,

:19:55.:19:59.

what are their rights? UK citizens living in France, what does the

:20:00.:20:03.

future hold for them? What about EU citizens living here. It is about

:20:04.:20:08.

family life and education and all those things that affect, this is

:20:09.:20:11.

about rights and individual rights. As I have said previously, I think

:20:12.:20:16.

what the Parliament should be doing is looking at those rights when they

:20:17.:20:21.

consider these issues. It may not be re-running the referendum, James,

:20:22.:20:25.

but it might delay the implementation, the triggering of

:20:26.:20:27.

Article 50 and that will anger some people? Well, it won't delay the

:20:28.:20:34.

triggering at all. The courts made it clear they could accommodate

:20:35.:20:39.

their timetable to the Government's timetable. The Government said they

:20:40.:20:43.

wanted to trigger Article 50 by the end of 2016 and the court said they

:20:44.:20:46.

will have our process done by then. The Government said they want to do

:20:47.:20:50.

it by March and the courts have made sure that their judgement is

:20:51.:20:54.

received in plenty of time to allow president Government to do what it

:20:55.:20:58.

wishes to do. There has been huge pressure on the judges. Enemies of

:20:59.:21:02.

the people was what they were called after the High Court decision and

:21:03.:21:05.

your client Gina Miller, had death threats. A lot of pressure? Yes, and

:21:06.:21:12.

regrettable. As we heard Gina say just now, very regrettable, very

:21:13.:21:15.

upsetting. We should be celebrating this process. It is part of our

:21:16.:21:18.

constitution, the separation of powers is part of the constitution.

:21:19.:21:23.

We all cherish and all citizens in this country cherish and we should

:21:24.:21:27.

be celebrating this process rather than again grating it. You must be

:21:28.:21:31.

glad and your clients must be glad, not only that they've won, but that

:21:32.:21:38.

it's over. Indeed. It's over, but obviously delighted with the result,

:21:39.:21:42.

but even if the result had gone the other way, it is all about the

:21:43.:21:46.

process and what we have had here is a properly regulated process to get

:21:47.:21:49.

to an answer. And that's what matters. As I said, it is not about

:21:50.:21:53.

going in or out, it is about the process and the rule of law. And

:21:54.:21:57.

that's what we've achieved. All right, very good to talk to you

:21:58.:22:00.

both. Congratulations from your point of view on the result.

:22:01.:22:06.

Two of the key solicitors in this case and celebrating that 8-3

:22:07.:22:11.

judgement which they will see as a victory.

:22:12.:22:18.

It is 10.22am. Reaction coming in thick and fast. Let's talk to Keir

:22:19.:22:25.

Starmer. Good morning to you Sir Keir Starmer. We hear Labour will

:22:26.:22:32.

table three amendments, the most tricky a meaningful vote at end of

:22:33.:22:36.

the negotiations. Can you explain to our audience in lay man's terms what

:22:37.:22:40.

that means, please? Firstly, we welcome the judgement. It is really

:22:41.:22:42.

important that Parliament has a proper role. If it is going to have

:22:43.:22:46.

a proper role we need a white paper that sets out the objectives. I know

:22:47.:22:52.

we had a speech, but we need a formal document setting out what the

:22:53.:22:55.

Government is seeking to achieve. We need an ability to hold the

:22:56.:22:59.

Government to account during the two years and Parliament needs a say on

:23:00.:23:02.

the outcome because that's meaningful involvement. The Prime

:23:03.:23:05.

Minister said in her speech that she will offer a vote to Parliament on

:23:06.:23:10.

the final deal. We need to make sure that's a meaningful vote and there

:23:11.:23:14.

is an anxiety if it is a vote between the deal on the table and no

:23:15.:23:19.

deal that wouldn't be meaningful. Meaningful. This is about making

:23:20.:23:24.

sure now it is established that Parliament should have a proper

:23:25.:23:27.

role, that it is a role that means something. OK. I'm sorry to be

:23:28.:23:32.

stupid, but what do you mean by meaningful? We have got to have a

:23:33.:23:38.

vote at a point in which beck still influence the outcome. Not simply,

:23:39.:23:41.

I'm concerned that the Prime Minister might say here is the deal,

:23:42.:23:46.

take it or leave it. It has got to be an appropriate point to make sure

:23:47.:23:50.

there is a degree of influence over the outcome. So you can say this

:23:51.:23:54.

deal is not good enough Mrs May, go back and get a better one? I hope

:23:55.:23:59.

that the Government will seek the best deal for Britain and be able to

:24:00.:24:04.

bring it back to Parliament in a form that is supportable across the

:24:05.:24:09.

House in the best interests and in the national interest. That's what

:24:10.:24:12.

we hull should all ed aiming for, but given that we have got the

:24:13.:24:16.

objectives, we need to test whether the Prime Minister has achieved what

:24:17.:24:19.

she set out it achieve and take a decision then, but what we can't

:24:20.:24:24.

have is very important ruling today, constitutional ruling, telling us

:24:25.:24:27.

that Parliament must have a proper role and then attempt by the

:24:28.:24:30.

Government to minimise the role of Parliament. It has got to be a full

:24:31.:24:34.

and meaningful role. In the end, is your leader going to tell your

:24:35.:24:38.

colleagues, you and your colleagues, to vote to trigger Article 50 at the

:24:39.:24:44.

end of March? Many of my colleagues and I campaigned passionately to

:24:45.:24:49.

stay in the EU. But we accept and respect the outcome and that means

:24:50.:24:54.

that we will not seek to frustrate the process. OK. So those Labour MPs

:24:55.:24:59.

and we've spoken to some already who are going to vote against. Those

:25:00.:25:02.

Labour MPs who rebel, what will happen to them? Well, we haven't

:25:03.:25:07.

made decision about precise voting. We haven't decided how many

:25:08.:25:11.

amendments we will put down. We're having discussions with colleagues.

:25:12.:25:15.

I would just say this - this is a difficult set of decisions for many

:25:16.:25:19.

colleagues who feel very strongly about these issues. And we're

:25:20.:25:25.

handling it cold lej atly and talking about it in the Labour

:25:26.:25:28.

Party. What do you say to voters who voted to leave the European Union,

:25:29.:25:31.

who are watching this ruling this morning and still saying, "Just get

:25:32.:25:38.

on with it." Well, frankly, the Prime Minister could have got on

:25:39.:25:43.

with it 82 days ago. We had the High Court ruling 82 days ago. The Prime

:25:44.:25:46.

Minister could have said that ruling has gone against me, I must involve

:25:47.:25:50.

Parliament, let's just get on with it. We've delayed to this point

:25:51.:25:54.

purely because the Prime Minister wanted to have an appeal to try and

:25:55.:25:58.

stop Parliament having a vote. And so... It sounds like you want to

:25:59.:26:04.

delay it more? If it lies anywhere, it lies with the Prime Minister

:26:05.:26:06.

because we could have been having this Bill in Parliament 82 days ago.

:26:07.:26:16.

Trying to lay any sense of the delay at the floor of the Labour Party

:26:17.:26:19.

when it is the Prime Minister who has taken 82 days to delay by having

:26:20.:26:23.

this appeal at taxpayers cost I might add, it is a little bit

:26:24.:26:28.

unfair. We simply say that Parliament should have a proper role

:26:29.:26:32.

and meaningful role and that's what the Supreme Court ruled and get on

:26:33.:26:35.

with it. Let's have that meaningful role. What adjectives would you use

:26:36.:26:41.

to describe the way Jeremy Corbyn has been handling Brexit in the last

:26:42.:26:44.

weeks and months? Well, we have been clear that we accept the result. We

:26:45.:26:47.

have been clear that the priority for us is jobs and the economy. And

:26:48.:26:52.

because that's so important to working people, to businesses across

:26:53.:26:54.

the country, I have been across the whole of the UK talking to

:26:55.:26:58.

businesses, they're concerned about things like tariffs, about making

:26:59.:27:02.

sure that trade isn't anymore difficult in the few fewer than it

:27:03.:27:09.

is now and we have been been standing up and making the case for

:27:10.:27:12.

them and trade unions, if you look at the messages and the position, it

:27:13.:27:15.

is to respect the outcome, but make sure, make sure that the new

:27:16.:27:18.

relationship between the UK and the EU is the right relationship and it

:27:19.:27:23.

actually works for businesses, for communities, and for working people

:27:24.:27:26.

up and down the country. Has your boss handled it well? Well, I think

:27:27.:27:31.

we have handled it well, but I'm not pretending, I'm not pretending that

:27:32.:27:34.

this is easy for colleagues across the Labour Party. We were a party

:27:35.:27:39.

that campaigned to remain in the EU. I campaigned to remain in. We're

:27:40.:27:43.

accepting the result. We have two-thirds of our MPs in

:27:44.:27:46.

constituencies that voted to leave the EU and one-third in

:27:47.:27:50.

constituencies that voted to remain. Of course, that means there are

:27:51.:27:54.

strongly held views and I'm not pretending they aren't there, but I

:27:55.:27:57.

do think they have to be seen in their context. This isn't a

:27:58.:28:00.

political split in any traditional sense, it is a party working through

:28:01.:28:03.

a series of difficult situations with its MPs.

:28:04.:28:07.

OK, thank you very much for your time, we appreciate it. That was Sir

:28:08.:28:14.

Keir Starmer. We have some Labour voters and some ex-Labour voters.

:28:15.:28:19.

Let me ask you how you think Jeremy Corbyn handled Brexit in the last

:28:20.:28:24.

few weeks and months. I think that he is in a very difficult situation.

:28:25.:28:30.

I think that half the Labour voters voted in and half voted out. He got

:28:31.:28:40.

63% of Labour voters voted in. But I think in Labour heartlands it is

:28:41.:28:42.

very difficult for him and I think that he's just trying to work his

:28:43.:28:48.

way through it. I think he accepts that we have to trigger Article 50.

:28:49.:28:54.

But it is then what happens from that point onwards that we have to

:28:55.:29:02.

worry about, you know. He is leader of her majesty's sop circumstances.

:29:03.:29:05.

It is all well and good, he has to work things out, but we have to deal

:29:06.:29:09.

with the issues here and now. I disagree. I feel like we don't want

:29:10.:29:15.

people who voted Leave to block the process. What Jeremy Corbyn is doing

:29:16.:29:19.

is correct, it is to go through. He is trying toen sure it is done

:29:20.:29:22.

properly. The ruling today was, I was happy with the ruling and I feel

:29:23.:29:25.

it is unfair to say this whole ruling is delaying the process and

:29:26.:29:29.

upsetting leave voters when at the end of the day Leave voters were

:29:30.:29:34.

coerced into voting for something that the Government couldn't legally

:29:35.:29:37.

provide. Whose fault is that? The leave campaigners or the people who

:29:38.:29:44.

wanted to Remain? You voted Ukip at the last election? Corbyn is trying

:29:45.:29:48.

to hold together a party. Part of the party wanted to vote in. Part of

:29:49.:29:54.

it wanted to vote out. Whether it was 2-1, whatever. He's trying to

:29:55.:29:59.

hold together a party to keep that strong opposition. But eventually if

:30:00.:30:07.

it does come to a 2020 election, they will have to vote with their

:30:08.:30:11.

feet whether they like it or not. They will be swayed to vote one way

:30:12.:30:17.

or the other. If their constituents voted out and they are an in person,

:30:18.:30:22.

that's unfortunate because under the Old Labour system, they were given

:30:23.:30:25.

lists of people who they could vote for to represent them in their

:30:26.:30:30.

constituency and now that's backfiring on them. Now, he can't

:30:31.:30:36.

get the people he wants, who he has and what he has as his values.

:30:37.:30:44.

45 minutes ago, the news that the Government lost its historic battle

:30:45.:30:50.

in the Supreme Court, Parliament will have to give consent of the

:30:51.:30:58.

tree -- triggering of Article 50. It will not overturn the referendum

:30:59.:31:02.

result, which saw the UK vote to leave the EU, but it determines

:31:03.:31:07.

which course is lawful. We can talk to John Whittingdale, former Culture

:31:08.:31:12.

Secretary, Conservative MP, a high profile leave campaigner. Iain

:31:13.:31:18.

Duncan Smith is a former Conservative leader and former Work

:31:19.:31:23.

and Pensions Secretary, he has just finished it done like playing a

:31:24.:31:26.

five-a-side football match, it says here! Were you not watching the

:31:27.:31:35.

historic ruling? I watched a replay of it! I have got so more people to

:31:36.:31:44.

introduce, not just MPs, peers will get a vote, so Lord Young boat and

:31:45.:31:52.

Leave, and Baroness Kramer voted remain. -- voted. We have heard that

:31:53.:32:02.

this is damaging, what do you say? I am very relaxed about the decision,

:32:03.:32:06.

there is a frustration amongst people who voted leave that we have

:32:07.:32:10.

not made much progress towards it, but I am pleased that the Government

:32:11.:32:14.

has made clear we will be triggering Article 50, I hope they bill will be

:32:15.:32:17.

passed as quickly as possible, and the one thing which would have

:32:18.:32:21.

potentially held up the process would have been if the Supreme Court

:32:22.:32:25.

had ruled that we had to consult all the devolved administrations, the

:32:26.:32:30.

nations and regions, but they have said that is not necessary. So I

:32:31.:32:35.

think the timetable can be achieved. Iain Duncan Smith, your reaction to

:32:36.:32:40.

the ruling. Well, this is in two parts, you have to understand that

:32:41.:32:45.

there is the European issue, but also the issue about who is supreme,

:32:46.:32:50.

Parliament or the court. This is the easy right now, so I was intrigued

:32:51.:32:55.

that it was a split judgment. I am disappointed that they have told

:32:56.:32:57.

parliament how to run their business, after all there was a vote

:32:58.:33:02.

overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50, so they have stepped into New

:33:03.:33:06.

Territories whereby they are telling Parliament what to do. -- into new

:33:07.:33:13.

territory. That leads to further constitutional questions. The second

:33:14.:33:16.

element, in terms of the European side of it, they were ruling on two

:33:17.:33:30.

issues, they have upheld the English High Court ruling that Parliament

:33:31.:33:34.

should have a vote, and they have gone slightly further. I am

:33:35.:33:37.

disappointed they have taken the step because there are wider

:33:38.:33:42.

constitutional implications. As John said, I expect the Government to

:33:43.:33:46.

bring forward a very simple bill, and to get it through both Houses of

:33:47.:33:51.

Parliament. The Lords should not try and frustrate the vote that was in

:33:52.:33:55.

the House of Commons late last year, and I think we will trigger Article

:33:56.:33:59.

50 in time, the end of March deadline. Ken Clarke is here as

:34:00.:34:06.

well, you must be delighted, but from what I am hearing from your

:34:07.:34:12.

colleagues, it changes nothing. Well, it does restore Parliamentary

:34:13.:34:15.

democracy, wholly predictable, I don't know why the Government

:34:16.:34:22.

bothered to resist it. What they were trying to do was minimise

:34:23.:34:25.

discussion, as we have heard, they will try to have a bill of two lines

:34:26.:34:29.

so that you don't talk about it. Are we going to have new tariffs?

:34:30.:34:33.

Regulatory barriers? Fisheries policies? What is the position of

:34:34.:34:40.

continental students? No, the public have decided, no two Cabinet

:34:41.:34:44.

ministers agree about any of those things, but now Parliament is not

:34:45.:34:48.

allowed to talk about it. It won't last, and once Parliament gets under

:34:49.:34:55.

way, if the Government actually eliminates discussion on the Act of

:34:56.:34:59.

Parliament in order to rush on with it, Parliament, I trust, will start

:35:00.:35:05.

holding the Government to account - the policies, the objectives it is

:35:06.:35:09.

pursuing, and we have got here is to go. The idea that Parliament is

:35:10.:35:14.

suspended for two and a half years, and when the Government has done a

:35:15.:35:19.

deal, then Parliament can vote, that is about the strangest proposal I

:35:20.:35:25.

have heard. Ian Duncan Smith is tied to come back. Kent knows very well

:35:26.:35:32.

we are bringing forward the repeal of the 1972 European Communities

:35:33.:35:35.

Act, covering every single element of our relationship with the

:35:36.:35:39.

European Union, so I don't quite understand, going forward, there

:35:40.:35:42.

will be a vast amount of the date in both Houses of Parliament beyond

:35:43.:35:47.

whatever this very simple bill may be, this is only about triggering

:35:48.:35:51.

Article 50. We will have more than ample discussion about elements that

:35:52.:35:55.

the Government may be engaged in, what Parliament think they should or

:35:56.:35:59.

should not do, that will all be there, as he knows, and I know,

:36:00.:36:03.

having both been involved in Maastricht, the public will be sick

:36:04.:36:09.

and tired of debating it. You and I have debated these things very

:36:10.:36:13.

often, as you say! The Great Repeal Bill, apparently we are not go to

:36:14.:36:16.

change any of the rules, we are getting rid of the European rules,

:36:17.:36:20.

but we can't think of one we want to change at the moment, so we're

:36:21.:36:25.

making them all British rules. We will take a long time debating

:36:26.:36:29.

whether they should be British or European rules. I hope it gives the

:36:30.:36:32.

opportunity not just for discussion, but normally you and I have been in

:36:33.:36:38.

government together for four years, we were in government because we

:36:39.:36:41.

could command a majority in parliament for the policies we are

:36:42.:36:47.

pursuing. Where the Great Repeal Bill will give us the opportunity to

:36:48.:36:52.

make the Government and Strobel for the policy it is pursuing an

:36:53.:37:00.

environmental issues. -- answerable. Well, it will. It won't, in the way

:37:01.:37:05.

it was described, it was a very good slogan at the party conference. Why

:37:06.:37:09.

don't we have ordinary Parliamentary democracy? When you were opposing

:37:10.:37:14.

Maastricht, you took up weeks and weeks and weeks of Parliamentary

:37:15.:37:18.

time trying to defeat the Government on its policy. You are saying I am

:37:19.:37:23.

ordered to abandon my lifelong convictions and not challenge the

:37:24.:37:28.

Government. If you have lost this referendum, you would be behaving in

:37:29.:37:32.

the way you did up to Maastricht. Well, Ken, I fully agree with you!

:37:33.:37:40.

If we had won in Maastricht, nothing would have happened, because we

:37:41.:37:43.

could not have gone back to the EU and said, sorry, we don't agree any

:37:44.:37:49.

more, that deal was done. You could have stopped it. But Ken, you know

:37:50.:37:54.

very well, in a way Parliament works, the repeal of the 1972

:37:55.:37:57.

European Communities Act will allow you to debate and amend anything you

:37:58.:38:04.

like on every element of this, so you and I both know there will be ad

:38:05.:38:08.

nauseam debate about this, and we will both be, I'm sure, in studios

:38:09.:38:12.

discussing how Parliament voted the night before more than we want to

:38:13.:38:17.

be! Let me bring in the voters from around the UK, listening to former

:38:18.:38:21.

Conservative colleagues debating this. When you hear Iain Duncan

:38:22.:38:24.

Smith and Ken Clarke talking about this in these terms, what are you

:38:25.:38:28.

thinking? That epitomises the problem with the referendum debate

:38:29.:38:33.

as a whole. It became about personalities. Now, the British

:38:34.:38:37.

public made their decision, and I think what is important now is that

:38:38.:38:40.

there is enough scrutiny in the process to make sure that the

:38:41.:38:45.

decision is not one that is of self harm to the country. I think the

:38:46.:38:49.

decision today shows that. There is no political agenda from the judges,

:38:50.:38:55.

they are not self appointed, that is very dangerous language, and you

:38:56.:38:58.

start to play with fire when you get into this territory. We need to make

:38:59.:39:06.

sure the decision is respected. Carl, sorry, Carl, go ahead. I think

:39:07.:39:13.

that just any issue of debate about delaying it or trying to get in a

:39:14.:39:18.

way of it, I don't think that is particularly relevant. I don't think

:39:19.:39:21.

any politician worth their salt is really wanting to stop it, well,

:39:22.:39:27.

there are a few, sorry. You will vote against it, Ken Clarke. I

:39:28.:39:32.

always go with my best judgment in the national interest, I will vote

:39:33.:39:37.

against, but I will be a tiny minority of eccentrics! Look at the

:39:38.:39:40.

Daily Mail, the modern politicians, they look at opinion polls, they are

:39:41.:39:45.

ordered to vote. Once we have got past that process, as somebody has

:39:46.:39:48.

just said, the devil is in the detail. The referendum was the

:39:49.:39:55.

Borazon Dave show, we didn't discuss fisheries policies. -- Boris and

:39:56.:40:05.

Dave. The result of the referendum was to leave, I believe in

:40:06.:40:09.

democracy, the decision was to leave, and my view is that we have

:40:10.:40:12.

to back the result of the referendum. Baroness Kramer, for

:40:13.:40:18.

give me, but some of our audience will be thinking, what has it got to

:40:19.:40:23.

do with you two? We worked together in the mid 1980s, and our views have

:40:24.:40:27.

not changed one whit, we had the same argument back then. It has a

:40:28.:40:31.

great deal to do with me and Baroness Kramer, we are citizens of

:40:32.:40:38.

the UK. I voted, 40 years ago, to enter a free-trade area. Nobody ever

:40:39.:40:49.

asked me, from that day until this, whether I wanted to be part even of

:40:50.:40:52.

the EU. What are you going to do when this gets to the Lords? I am

:40:53.:40:55.

going to vote for leave, I will do, and if the Lords as a whole do not

:40:56.:40:58.

vote in that way, they will be bringing on Lords reform much

:40:59.:41:01.

quicker. The vote that will come to the Lords will not be yes or no, but

:41:02.:41:05.

whether or not we scrutinise this, and whether we try to introduce

:41:06.:41:10.

amendments. I will be strongly voting to amend, because you only

:41:11.:41:14.

have to listen, almost everybody who voted for Brexit had a different

:41:15.:41:17.

view of what it was going to deliver, and I think the British

:41:18.:41:21.

people need to see the deal at the end, and the British people that

:41:22.:41:27.

need to make a final decision. You are agreeing with Baroness Kramer.

:41:28.:41:32.

We are elected to parliament to have a debate and hold the Government to

:41:33.:41:36.

account, about important decisions. That is not to say that we should

:41:37.:41:40.

thwart the referendum, we must uphold the referendum result. The

:41:41.:41:43.

other thing we should be aware of is that once Article 50 is triggered,

:41:44.:41:48.

this is a one-way process. There is not a stop or handbrake, we are

:41:49.:41:52.

going to be leaving from that point, so it is important that everyone

:41:53.:41:57.

involved recognises that, and we have the opportunity to investigate

:41:58.:42:04.

the process in the interests of constituents. Now until the end of

:42:05.:42:06.

March, is that enough time? It is the key window to have a debate, but

:42:07.:42:10.

there will be two more years after that to hold the Government to

:42:11.:42:15.

account. These sectors that are affected... The Lords are an

:42:16.:42:22.

amending body, we are not elected, we are appointed. This is a yes or

:42:23.:42:26.

no decision, and when legislation goes through, there is time to

:42:27.:42:29.

amend, but this is not the right time for the Lords to start saying

:42:30.:42:36.

no. Baroness Kramer? It is a key thing to amend, and we will be

:42:37.:42:40.

looking to amend. He is saying it is the wrong time. Entirely the wrong

:42:41.:42:46.

time! There will be some who take that view, many others in the Lords

:42:47.:42:51.

are very active and they say that it is absolutely our role, our job, the

:42:52.:42:56.

reason we are there is to scrutinise and improve. Are you prepared for

:42:57.:43:01.

the criticism which will undoubtedly come, where opponents will say you

:43:02.:43:08.

are unelected, trying to thwart the will of the people? I have taken an

:43:09.:43:11.

oath to scrutinise and to improve, and others will take that view.

:43:12.:43:20.

These are the words - scrutinise and improve, not to change, but this is

:43:21.:43:25.

yes or no. Improvement is amending, and whether we succeed or not is an

:43:26.:43:29.

entirely different issue, but what is important is this is that it is a

:43:30.:43:35.

bigger message to the Government today, which is that it has to

:43:36.:43:39.

recognise the importance of Parliamentary democracy, and we have

:43:40.:43:42.

seen this government before trying to get around Parliamentary

:43:43.:43:44.

democracy, trying to sideline Parliament, and it will be crucial.

:43:45.:43:48.

We talked about the Great Repeal Bill, there will be a lot of

:43:49.:43:51.

discussions about whether it has clauses that let the Government do

:43:52.:43:56.

exactly what it wants. It is the wrong title, it is not going to

:43:57.:44:02.

repeal anything, is it? It is just going to subsume things into British

:44:03.:44:05.

law. John Whittingdale... All kinds of things, this is a clear message,

:44:06.:44:10.

we live in a Parliamentary democracy, Parliament has that

:44:11.:44:14.

responsibility. Democracy is the word. The idea that Parliament is

:44:15.:44:19.

not talking about the EU and how we leave is ridiculous, we debated

:44:20.:44:23.

every week. I sit on the Brexit select committee in Parliament which

:44:24.:44:28.

is scrutinising the Government's process for negotiating exit. Now,

:44:29.:44:33.

the House of Commons is an elected chamber, and the House of Lords has

:44:34.:44:36.

to accept the will of the House of Commons. In this case it goes

:44:37.:44:40.

further, both houses have to accept the will of the British people as

:44:41.:44:44.

clearly expressed, and I have to say that I agree with David Young, if

:44:45.:44:48.

the House of Lords tries to frustrate the will of people

:44:49.:44:51.

expressed in the referendum, than I think the House of Lords is not

:44:52.:44:56.

going to survive. Iain Duncan Smith. I agree completely with that, the

:44:57.:45:02.

point here is that I am all for debate, we will have lots of debate,

:45:03.:45:05.

we will have time for that, but what I think would be unacceptable is if

:45:06.:45:10.

the Lords then decide to block this, because it was the decision of the

:45:11.:45:14.

British public. Take the Lib Dem position, Baroness Kramer, they have

:45:15.:45:18.

a handful of MPs in the House of Commons, but over a hundred peers in

:45:19.:45:22.

the House of Lords, so they are disproportionately represented in

:45:23.:45:26.

the Lords, and they shouldn't use that is proportionate representation

:45:27.:45:29.

to thwart the will of the House of Commons ultimately. By all means

:45:30.:45:33.

debated, but be very careful that the disproportion and position that

:45:34.:45:37.

they have got should not be wheeled in deliberately to try and block the

:45:38.:45:40.

will of the House of Commons and ultimately of the British people.

:45:41.:45:44.

Try and use that power to amend and that's key. A final word. No one is

:45:45.:45:55.

going to block in the House of Commons. I'm sure there will be lots

:45:56.:45:58.

of general debate. The Government are trying to provide lots of

:45:59.:46:02.

debate, the question is in the end the Government has to get

:46:03.:46:05.

Parliament's approval for the policies it is pursuing, not the

:46:06.:46:10.

details of the negotiations, but the objectives it's going to seek. It

:46:11.:46:15.

hasn't decided, they haven't agreed amongst themselves what their

:46:16.:46:25.

objectives are. Stop there. Stop there. Thank you very much and thank

:46:26.:46:31.

you for your patience as well. So we've heard the view of various

:46:32.:46:36.

Conservatives. Plus, of course, a Lib Dem peer, what about Labour?

:46:37.:46:40.

Norman is at Westminster. Just recap their position, please, Norman?

:46:41.:46:43.

Well, Jeremy Corbyn's position is that Labour MPs will not seek to

:46:44.:46:48.

frustrate Article 50, but he does want to table serial key amendments.

:46:49.:46:54.

One guaranteeing access to the single market, two ensuring workers

:46:55.:46:58.

rights are protected and Labour are after what they call a meaningful

:46:59.:47:01.

vote. What does that mean? The Government said OK, you can have a

:47:02.:47:05.

vote at the end of the whole process when Theresa May has done a deal,

:47:06.:47:08.

she will come back to the Commons and say, "Here it is, what do you

:47:09.:47:14.

think?" MPs with vote for that or reject it and if they reject it, we

:47:15.:47:19.

are walking away from the European Union with no deal. Labour wants to

:47:20.:47:24.

have an opportunity to grab Mrs May by the collar at the last minute and

:47:25.:47:28.

say, "Hang on, that's not good enough. You've got to go back to

:47:29.:47:32.

Brussels and do better." But let's be honest, Labour are

:47:33.:47:37.

profoundly divided over Brexit. I mean, you had Keir Starmer on saying

:47:38.:47:41.

it is a very difficult issue for my colleagues. Oh boy, it is a really

:47:42.:47:44.

difficult issue because the party is divided from the very top to the

:47:45.:47:47.

bottom, through the Shadow Cabinet, through the Parliamentary party,

:47:48.:47:50.

through ordinary parties, amongst Labour voters. Basically between

:47:51.:47:55.

traditional working class Labour voters who are pro-Brexit,

:47:56.:48:02.

protighter controls on I will immigration and the middle-class

:48:03.:48:06.

supporters who by and large are pro the EU and Labour is trying to sort

:48:07.:48:10.

of face both ways and you get a sense, I have been sent some e-mails

:48:11.:48:16.

by some of the Labour Leave MPs who are signalling a warning to those

:48:17.:48:19.

Labour MPs who might be tempted to vote against Article 50. Kate Howey

:48:20.:48:25.

says, "If Labour MPs are seen to be frustrating the will of the people

:48:26.:48:29.

by opposing Article 50 then they will lose their seats Q says Kate

:48:30.:48:35.

Howey. Another MP says, "My colleagues in the House of Commons

:48:36.:48:39.

need to realise if they are seen to frustrate the will of the British

:48:40.:48:43.

people, Labour could find themselves in a position where they will never

:48:44.:48:51.

form a Government again." Let's talk to four Labour MPs.

:48:52.:49:01.

Mr Gapes and Mr Stringer voted to leave the EU. So, I mean when it

:49:02.:49:07.

comes to you voting in the Commons, Graham Stringer, yes, to Article 50

:49:08.:49:10.

or no to Article 50 Article 50? Obviously yes. I campaigned to come

:49:11.:49:15.

out. We won the debate. The British people have decided, in all the

:49:16.:49:18.

previous debates in the Commons, there was never a question that it

:49:19.:49:21.

wasn't being handed over to the British people. Obviously Parliament

:49:22.:49:25.

has to implement that. I'm pleased with the decision today. I

:49:26.:49:29.

campaigned for this country to become a sof governing country and a

:49:30.:49:32.

democracy again. So that means that Parliament should have a vote. OK.

:49:33.:49:39.

Rushanara Ali? I'm going to make my decision based on what's in our

:49:40.:49:43.

national economic interests. What is that? I represent a seat which

:49:44.:49:50.

borders on Canary Wharf and the City of London, some 47,000 jobs in the

:49:51.:49:53.

financial services are at risk. Thousands of jobs have an announced

:49:54.:49:59.

by some of those sectors to leave our country. Now, in the end my

:50:00.:50:02.

judgement will be based on whether we have access to the single market,

:50:03.:50:07.

whether our rights are protected, we cannot have a race to the bottom.

:50:08.:50:13.

Workers rights will be protected. Well, we will see about that. Those

:50:14.:50:18.

would be the tests because people won't thank us whether they voted

:50:19.:50:23.

for or against if we damage our economy and our prosperity going

:50:24.:50:27.

forward. OK. Well, the referendum said we would leave the European

:50:28.:50:31.

Union. It didn't say we would leave the customs union and leave the

:50:32.:50:34.

single market. I think that we are going to be put on an escalator by

:50:35.:50:40.

this process by the speech of Theresa May which basically

:50:41.:50:43.

Parliament won't be able to stop and we will either be faced with a

:50:44.:50:47.

position which is very bad for our economy and our national interests

:50:48.:50:51.

or an even worse one of no deal at all. Does that mean you're going to

:50:52.:50:56.

vote against triggering Article 50? I am going to vote against because

:50:57.:51:01.

we have got no White Paper and no plan and once we are on the

:51:02.:51:05.

escalator we can't stop it. It is a no from me. I replaced a Lib Dem in

:51:06.:51:10.

Bermondsey and Southwark. I made a simple pledge to my constituents I

:51:11.:51:13.

won't vote for anything I believe with harm their interests and we are

:51:14.:51:18.

seeing the harm in my constituency from manufacturers and importers and

:51:19.:51:21.

from the financial sector of the referendum result alone. What harm

:51:22.:51:25.

are you seeing? Jobs will be moved to Frankfurt and Paris from my

:51:26.:51:29.

constituency. I met with importers of Greek, Polish and Spanish

:51:30.:51:33.

produce, they have already seen a 15% increase in their prices to

:51:34.:51:36.

import goods as a result of the pound crashing since the referendum.

:51:37.:51:40.

This is before we even get into the worst deal that Theresa May has

:51:41.:51:43.

indicated she wants from the negotiations. What do you say to

:51:44.:51:47.

your colleagues, Graham Stringer who will vote against the will of the

:51:48.:51:52.

people? They didn't make those arguments. I have had the second

:51:53.:51:57.

reading debate and those arguments were not made when we decided to

:51:58.:52:01.

give the people the choice, it was all about the people having the

:52:02.:52:04.

right to choose and the Labour Party recommended them to vote to stay and

:52:05.:52:08.

they rejected that. The country is against all the predictions of those

:52:09.:52:12.

people who wanted to remain. The economy has done very well since we

:52:13.:52:18.

decided to leave partly because, no, but the preDibs was on the 24th June

:52:19.:52:23.

the economy would go down to the tubes. We have been told repeatedly

:52:24.:52:29.

that it is about the economy, it will be bad for the economy. All

:52:30.:52:32.

predictions have been wrong. Reducing the value of the pound is

:52:33.:52:37.

actually creating jobs. You're ignoring the evidence from this

:52:38.:52:40.

gentleman's constituency. There will be pluses and minuses. They just

:52:41.:52:44.

have to suck it up. There have been always been pluses and minuses in

:52:45.:52:47.

the EU because jobs have been destroyed by the EU because of

:52:48.:52:51.

regulations of different types. What I would like to say to all four of

:52:52.:52:55.

you. Labour has this reputation of being spineless. The three of you,

:52:56.:52:58.

thank you for taking a stand for the people in your constituencies. I

:52:59.:53:02.

think Jeremy Corbyn is doing a very sensible thing in stating that

:53:03.:53:05.

Labour MPs, you know, he might put the whip out, we don't know about

:53:06.:53:10.

that yet, but it is his right as a party leader of a party that is

:53:11.:53:14.

divided by this to let the people and the MPs vote according to their

:53:15.:53:17.

consciences and their constituents. It is not a question of stopping the

:53:18.:53:22.

EU, us leaving the EU, that will go through anyway, we know that, enough

:53:23.:53:25.

of the Tories are going to vote that way anyway, so thank you to you

:53:26.:53:30.

three for taking a stand. Without a coherent position of the Opposition

:53:31.:53:33.

how can the Government be held to account? It is not going to happen

:53:34.:53:37.

so you have got parties like the SNP or the Liberal Democrats providing

:53:38.:53:41.

the opposition in place of Labour. This isn't a question of opposition

:53:42.:53:44.

or Government for me, it's a question of the future of our

:53:45.:53:47.

country in regards to what we get at the end of this deal. It's not a

:53:48.:53:51.

question of just disagreeing with the Government for the sake of the

:53:52.:53:54.

Government. I want to bring in another guest if I may? The case

:53:55.:53:59.

against the Government has been led by an investment banger and

:54:00.:54:05.

philanthropist, Gina Miller. They challenged the Government's

:54:06.:54:08.

presumption that it had the right to trigger Article 50. One of the

:54:09.:54:14.

supporters is Charlie mullens, the head of Pimlico Plumbers. He helped

:54:15.:54:19.

fund the case. Hello Mr Mullens. Good morning. So even with MPs

:54:20.:54:23.

getting a vote, ministers don't expect anything to change, the UK

:54:24.:54:27.

will begin the process of leaving the EU, triggered at the end of

:54:28.:54:33.

March, what was the point of it all? Whether they were legally entitled

:54:34.:54:41.

to trigger Article 50. With Parliament involved hopefully we can

:54:42.:54:45.

get a softer Brexit. That's your motivation. Do you think that's

:54:46.:54:49.

realistic? Given what Mrs May has said? Well, yeah. I mean, of course,

:54:50.:54:55.

it's realistic, I mean Theresa May and the Government can't just get on

:54:56.:55:01.

with it now and do what they want and form an hard Brexit. We need to

:55:02.:55:05.

do the best what's for the UK and for everybody in Britain and I

:55:06.:55:09.

believe now that Parliament being involved that's what is going to

:55:10.:55:12.

happen. A softer Brexit to you, means what? Well, ideally still

:55:13.:55:18.

trade with the single market and still have free movement and still

:55:19.:55:25.

trade with the customs unionment we don't cut ourselves off completely

:55:26.:55:32.

from the EU. It would be madness to come away, 500 million customers,

:55:33.:55:36.

now we can have a soft Brexit which would be better for everybody in

:55:37.:55:40.

Britain. Remind us how you voted in the referendum? I'm a Remainor. Bev,

:55:41.:55:47.

you want to talk to him. I think Graham Stringer is right, the

:55:48.:55:52.

economy is doing fine, thank you. But don't loose sight of the fact

:55:53.:55:55.

that we're paying down a deficit. You just said that imports have

:55:56.:56:01.

reduced great because the pound has gone weaker. OK, twhaes we want. No,

:56:02.:56:08.

no, I didn't say that. No, I said importing is costing more. It is not

:56:09.:56:12.

that people are using... Fine and it costs more, we bring less in. You

:56:13.:56:23.

cannot make chorizo in the UK. It is a Spanish produce. But this is an

:56:24.:56:36.

English country. Go ahead. I'm from Redcar. In October 2015 we lost our

:56:37.:56:43.

steelworks. Thousands of jobs. That was because the EU state aid rules

:56:44.:56:47.

stopped our Government from saving the steelworks, your Government

:56:48.:56:50.

didn't save your steelworks in 2009. What do you say to those people that

:56:51.:56:55.

was the year that stopped them? If you think that outside of the

:56:56.:56:58.

European Union we're going to be able to compete with Chinese imports

:56:59.:57:01.

into the European Union then sadly, we're very much mistaken. There was

:57:02.:57:05.

a risk that, you know, at the moment we haven't left. We have got two

:57:06.:57:09.

years negotiations to come out of the European Union. We have got

:57:10.:57:13.

another five years, manufacturing jobs in particular and steel are

:57:14.:57:16.

lost whilst we even negotiate the new terms of any agreement. If we

:57:17.:57:22.

stay in the EU, you will re-open Redcar steelworks? My position I

:57:23.:57:28.

will be opposing triggering Article 50 but we're not in Government. You

:57:29.:57:33.

never will be. I hope, I very much hope I will be.

:57:34.:57:41.

The European Union actually put tariffs on Chinese steel that the

:57:42.:57:45.

British Conservative Government, the British Conservative Government were

:57:46.:57:49.

not in favour of that and the fact is, it's our national Government

:57:50.:57:54.

that sold out Redcar. A final word. Hang on, a final word from Charlie

:57:55.:57:59.

mullens. Sorry, it is a really bad line, what did you say? I was asking

:58:00.:58:03.

you for your final word on funding this case. Final word is, the result

:58:04.:58:08.

we got today was always going to be that way. We now need to move on and

:58:09.:58:12.

get the best Brexit we can for the UK by getting Parliament involved

:58:13.:58:16.

and now we just need to move on and Brexit. OK. Thank you very much.

:58:17.:58:19.

Thank you. Thank you for coming on the programme. Thank you for your

:58:20.:58:23.

patience and time this morning. Plenty more reaction to today's

:58:24.:58:31.

Supreme Court result on today's BBC News. I'm back tomorrow. Have

:58:32.:58:33.

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:58:34.:58:45.

it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.

:58:46.:58:48.

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