25/01/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


25/01/2017

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This morning, in an exclusive interview a mum who was at high risk

:00:00.:00:14.

of being murdered by her abusive ex-husband tells this programme

:00:15.:00:16.

a social worker disclosed the location of her secret

:00:17.:00:18.

The woman was subjected to violent revenge attacks as a result.

:00:19.:00:27.

He said it was impossible to safeguard us and keep our address

:00:28.:00:36.

safe and he said losing your life is not worth seeking justice and he

:00:37.:00:38.

said ultimately that's going to happen.

:00:39.:00:41.

We'll bring you that full interview at 9.15am.

:00:42.:00:42.

Also on the programme, "I swear to tell the post truth,

:00:43.:00:45.

the alternative truth and nothing like the truth" - that's how

:00:46.:00:48.

satirical magazine Private Eye mocks Donald Trump's

:00:49.:00:50.

Overnight there have been more clashes between Trump's spokesman

:00:51.:00:53.

Look Jeff, I've asked and answered this question twice. He believes

:00:54.:01:05.

what he believes based on the information he has provided.

:01:06.:01:08.

REPORTER: What does that mean for democracy. If he does believe that,

:01:09.:01:12.

what does it mean for democracy? I've answered your question.

:01:13.:01:15.

So how will the media and Democrats carry on trying

:01:16.:01:18.

And a North Korean diplomat who defected last year

:01:19.:01:21.

from its London embassy claims its leader Kim Jong-un

:01:22.:01:26.

would be prepared to attack Los Angeles with nuclear weapons

:01:27.:01:28.

if his survival in power depended on it.

:01:29.:01:35.

Kim Jong-un, I think, will press the button of this dangerous, you know,

:01:36.:01:51.

the weapons when he thinks that his rule and his time is threatened.

:01:52.:01:56.

As always we'll bring you the latest breaking news and developing stories

:01:57.:02:12.

Later we'll be covering a story which the govt has been accused

:02:13.:02:23.

Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

:02:24.:02:39.

Our top story today, President Trump says he has a "big

:02:40.:02:43.

day" planned on national security today which will include

:02:44.:02:45.

an announcement on building a wall on the US border with Mexico.

:02:46.:02:49.

Our correspondent in Washington, David Willis, has more.

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We're going to have our borders nice and strong.

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It was the soundtrack to Donald Trump's unorthodox

:02:54.:03:01.

campaign for president, a call to build a wall

:03:02.:03:03.

along America's southern border with Mexico.

:03:04.:03:08.

Now he seems set to press ahead with measures he believes are vital

:03:09.:03:11.

to stemming the illegal flow of immigrants into

:03:12.:03:13.

The president, on his Twitter account, said simply,

:03:14.:03:19.

"Big day planned on national security tomorrow.

:03:20.:03:22.

Among many other things, we will build the wall."

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He's about to make Mexico pay for it, what's more,

:03:26.:03:27.

although the Mexican government has refused to do so.

:03:28.:03:31.

Later in the week, to round off a busy start to his presidency,

:03:32.:03:34.

Mr Trump is expected to sign executive orders closing America's

:03:35.:03:38.

borders to refugees, and limiting access to citizens

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from seven African and Middle Eastern countries -

:03:42.:03:44.

countries the administration believes export terrorism.

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They are mainly Muslim countries, but the mantra of the Trump

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A country that traditionally has opened its doors

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to immigrants is about to head in the opposite direction.

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President Trump has also re-ignited a major environmental dispute

:04:01.:04:06.

He's used executive orders to sign into action moves to re-launch

:04:07.:04:15.

projects to build controversial oil pipelines in North

:04:16.:04:17.

Protests against the plans have already begun with demonstrations

:04:18.:04:23.

The President has also reportedly banned staff at America's

:04:24.:04:32.

Environmental Protection Agency from posting on social media.

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While a series of tweets on climate change from the twitter account

:04:36.:04:38.

of the Badlands National Park in South Dakota have been deleted.

:04:39.:04:41.

Meanwhile, the new administration's war of words with the US media shows

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The relationship is not getting any better? We have seen the spats

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overnight in the White House briefing room. President Trump has

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been accused of spending a lot of time on issues which are non core

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issues. We had the row with the alternative facts about the size of

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the inauguration. Now he's repeating the claims that he would have won

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the popular vote if it wasn't for three to five million illegal votes

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that he said were placed. The media says there is no basis for this, but

:05:24.:05:28.

he said that this is a, his spokesperson says this is a belief

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he maintains. Now, obviously Trump won with the electoral college

:05:33.:05:35.

votes, but Hillary Clinton got almost three million more votes than

:05:36.:05:40.

he did. Now, he is saying the reason she got the extra votes was because

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three and five million people voted illegally. The New York Times is

:05:46.:05:48.

never a friend of Donald Trump said this is a lie. He's saying this is

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really bothering the president because he feels there is all the

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stories that are undermining his presidency. OK, thank you. We're

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speaking to a representative of the New York Times after 10am. Thank you

:06:01.:06:01.

very much, Keith. Joanna is in the BBC

:06:02.:06:04.

Newsroom with a summary MPs have increased pressure

:06:05.:06:06.

on Theresa May to set out her negotiating position

:06:07.:06:12.

on Brexit in a White Paper to be It follow yesterday's

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Supreme Court judgment which ruled that the Prime Minister

:06:16.:06:20.

must give parliament a vote before triggering Article 50, the formal

:06:21.:06:23.

process for leaving the EU. It's thought a Brexit Bill could be

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introduced as early as tomorrow. Here's our political

:06:30.:06:36.

correspondent Tom Bateman. After the judges ruled only

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Parliament can start Brexit, today a warning for MPs -

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don't try to derail the plan. The Supreme Court judgement means

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a Bill on triggering Article 50, the start of Britain's exit process,

:06:44.:06:46.

must be put before MPs and Lords. The Government says legislation

:06:47.:06:50.

paving the way for Brexit That'll be voted on by both

:06:51.:06:54.

Houses of Parliament. Theresa May wants Article 50

:06:55.:07:00.

triggered by the end of March. Then Britain has two

:07:01.:07:02.

years to leave the EU. The point of no return was passed

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on 23rd June last year. Labour say they won't block Article

:07:05.:07:11.

50, but want to amend the Bill to give MPs more control

:07:12.:07:15.

of the process. If necessary, there will be

:07:16.:07:19.

hand-to-hand combat on this. We need to make sure that we get

:07:20.:07:21.

the best deal on behalf of the whole country and she can't say she acts

:07:22.:07:25.

on behalf of the whole country. Theresa May also faces opposition

:07:26.:07:29.

from some of her own MPs who want a formal exit document to be

:07:30.:07:32.

debated, but for now at least, ministers believe they are on track

:07:33.:07:35.

to get Brexit triggered A mother of two on the run

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from her violent ex-husband has told this programme how a social worker

:07:39.:07:53.

disclosed the location of her safe house twice,

:07:54.:07:55.

leading to a vicious revenge attack Ivy, which is not her real name,

:07:56.:07:58.

was considered by police to be She told Victoria she was let down

:07:59.:08:03.

by nearly every agency supposed In the end police advised her

:08:04.:08:07.

to drop the investigation into her ex as they couldn't

:08:08.:08:13.

guarantee her safety. You can hear Victoria's interview at

:08:14.:08:18.

9.15am. Grammar school headteachers

:08:19.:08:24.

in England have warned that they may ask parents for hundreds of pounds

:08:25.:08:27.

a year to cope with funding cuts. The Grammar School Heads Association

:08:28.:08:30.

says proposed changes to school funding will see a majority

:08:31.:08:32.

of them lose money. A number of Conservative MPs

:08:33.:08:34.

are urging the government But the Department for Education

:08:35.:08:37.

said it was ending a postcode Women who have had a third child due

:08:38.:08:40.

to being raped will now have to prove what happened to avoid

:08:41.:08:47.

losing money through new tax From April, tax credits will be

:08:48.:08:50.

limited to a family's The Government published

:08:51.:08:53.

a new so-called "rape clause" on Friday exempting women whose

:08:54.:08:59.

third or subsequent child was born The move has been

:09:00.:09:02.

described by campaigners The Government says it was

:09:03.:09:05.

"important to have an exception Women are experiencing widespread

:09:06.:09:10.

discrimination when it comes to dress codes at work,

:09:11.:09:15.

according to a parliamentary report. MPs heard from hundreds of women

:09:16.:09:18.

who reported that the codes They began an inquiry

:09:19.:09:20.

after a receptionist was sent home A delayed upgrade to the radio

:09:21.:09:24.

system, used by the emergency services in England,

:09:25.:09:35.

Scotland and Wales, may end up costing taxpayers

:09:36.:09:39.

?475 million a year. MPs on the Public Accounts Committee

:09:40.:09:41.

say the planned new system isn't used by any other country and needs

:09:42.:09:44.

to be properly tested. The service, which will use 4G

:09:45.:09:47.

and EE, was supposed to be ready last year but won't be

:09:48.:09:50.

available until 2019. At the moment, at the time

:09:51.:09:53.

we had our hearing, there was no deal struck,

:09:54.:09:56.

and there still is not with Transport for London

:09:57.:09:58.

about the London Underground, and there are still question marks

:09:59.:10:00.

about other undergrounds If it doesn't work underground,

:10:01.:10:02.

then it's a real risk to both people and our emergency services

:10:03.:10:06.

who really need to contact each other in real time in case

:10:07.:10:09.

of emergencies such as 7/7. An RNLI lifeboat station

:10:10.:10:15.

in Yorkshire has found itself with an unexpected new crew member -

:10:16.:10:17.

a fox named Basil. Basil befriended the RNLI team

:10:18.:10:21.

after becoming a regular They say he's not yet been on any

:10:22.:10:23.

actual rescues but as you can see, he could well be handling

:10:24.:10:30.

the station's media inquiries given his obvious fondness

:10:31.:10:33.

for the TV cameras! That's a summary of

:10:34.:10:36.

the latest BBC News. Do get in touch with us

:10:37.:10:38.

throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria LIVE,

:10:39.:10:45.

and if you text, you will be charged Let's get some sport with Reshmin

:10:46.:10:48.

at the BBC Sport Centre. The British Number One is out

:10:49.:11:00.

of the Australian Open. She was the only Brit

:11:01.:11:10.

left in the competition, but Konta was simply outplayed

:11:11.:11:12.

in her quarter final match. With the six-time

:11:13.:11:15.

champion Serena Williams. Konta had been on a nine-match

:11:16.:11:16.

winning streak but came up short in her first meeting

:11:17.:11:19.

with the 22-time She lost it in straight

:11:20.:11:21.

sets 6-2, 6-3. They were out on court

:11:22.:11:24.

for just over an hour. So Williams is now on the hunt

:11:25.:11:26.

for a 23rd title and what would be Tough for Konta, of course,

:11:27.:11:30.

but she has plenty to be proud of. She hadn't even dropped

:11:31.:11:38.

a set all tournament. Who thinks the future at Manchester

:11:39.:11:42.

United looks bright? When Sir Alex Ferguson speaks,

:11:43.:11:47.

the footballing world stands to attention

:11:48.:11:51.

and the former manager and United legend has given

:11:52.:11:53.

Jose Mourinho the thumbs up. The Portuguese has been in charge

:11:54.:11:58.

at United for eight months, but the club currently trail leaders

:11:59.:12:01.

Chelsea by 14 points Sir Alex though, believes his

:12:02.:12:03.

old club are unlucky They haven't lost in the League

:12:04.:12:07.

for three months and the key to that, thinks the Scotsman,

:12:08.:12:13.

is Mourinho keeping And England's women were in action

:12:14.:12:15.

in Spain last night. The Lionesses played

:12:16.:12:24.

the second of their two Norway ended their ten match

:12:25.:12:26.

unbeaten run on Sunday and they were held to a nil-nil draw

:12:27.:12:36.

with Sweden last night in Murcia. And this is who they have

:12:37.:12:39.

to thank for the scoreline - goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain,

:12:40.:12:42.

who saved a second half penalty. The next step in England's

:12:43.:12:44.

preparation for the European Championship this summer

:12:45.:12:46.

is the She Believes Cup, History has been made in the snow?

:12:47.:12:55.

Sweden. Yes.

:12:56.:12:57.

History indeed - the first successful double

:12:58.:13:05.

The Double Backflip has earned a reputation as the Holy Grail -

:13:06.:13:09.

and Sweden's Daniel Bodin is the one who pulled it off.

:13:10.:13:13.

He's been working on this for two years and all his hard

:13:14.:13:16.

Wow, that's impressive. That's it from me. I will have more later on.

:13:17.:13:27.

Good morning. Welcome to the programme.

:13:28.:13:30.

A mum of two on the run from her violent ex-husband has told

:13:31.:13:33.

this programme how a social worker disclosed the location

:13:34.:13:35.

of her safe house - twice - leading to vicious revenge attacks

:13:36.:13:38.

Ivy, which is not her real name, was considered by police to be

:13:39.:13:44.

She was placed in secret, emergency accommodation with her children.

:13:45.:13:49.

In our exclusive interview, she tells us she was let down

:13:50.:13:52.

by nearly every agency supposed to be protecting her when she fled

:13:53.:13:54.

Eventually she and her children were relocated to a different

:13:55.:14:05.

part of the UK, given new identities and forced to cut off all ties

:14:06.:14:08.

In the end, police advised her to drop the investigation into her ex,

:14:09.:14:13.

because they couldn't guarantee her safety,

:14:14.:14:15.

saying "neither her life, nor her children's lives,

:14:16.:14:16.

were worth losing in the pursuit of justice".

:14:17.:14:21.

This interview is the first time Ivy has ever talked publicly

:14:22.:14:24.

Just to let you know, some of the details she describes

:14:25.:14:29.

are distressing, so if you have children around, you may not

:14:30.:14:32.

Ivy begins by describing how the physical and sexual abuse

:14:33.:14:39.

perpetrated by her husband, and other men he introduced

:14:40.:14:41.

It started off with sexual violence, so raping, and then progressed

:14:42.:14:51.

from there to physical violence, which started out as

:14:52.:14:54.

And then slowly progressed from there.

:14:55.:15:01.

There were weapons involved, in terms of a knife.

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Sticking my head under water until I was unconscious.

:15:05.:15:13.

And then, later on, he involved other men,

:15:14.:15:18.

which obviously included raping by other men.

:15:19.:15:21.

So he allowed other men to rape you as well?

:15:22.:15:24.

Do you have any idea how many times you were raped

:15:25.:15:38.

It was on a weekly basis, and sometimes multiple

:15:39.:15:46.

times during the week, so I have really no idea.

:15:47.:15:51.

What threats did he make to you to stop you going to the police?

:15:52.:15:57.

Well, once we had children, it was threats against the children,

:15:58.:15:59.

where he said he would harm the children if I wasn't complicit

:16:00.:16:03.

And that was particularly when he involved the other men.

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He constantly told me that nobody would believe me.

:16:09.:16:14.

And he also threatened that if I did go, that I would be the one

:16:15.:16:18.

You know, when you've been told that for so many years,

:16:19.:16:26.

What impact did all this have on you?

:16:27.:16:32.

I now suffer with complex post-traumatic stress disorder.

:16:33.:16:36.

I find it very hard to trust anybody.

:16:37.:16:45.

Eventually you did go to the police after encouragement from others.

:16:46.:16:49.

You spent an hour or so initially talking to an officer,

:16:50.:16:53.

a police officer, describing what you had endured

:16:54.:16:56.

After I had finished giving him my report,

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he sat back in his chair and said to me very bluntly that

:17:04.:17:06.

His words were, things like this don't happen in our green,

:17:07.:17:11.

leafy area, and anyway, you've derived sexual gratification

:17:12.:17:13.

I left feeling completely degraded and humiliated,

:17:14.:17:29.

and regretted having followed the advice to go

:17:30.:17:31.

Eventually, the authorities realised you were at risk

:17:32.:17:38.

of very serious harm, and your children, and they moved

:17:39.:17:41.

you to emergency accommodation, so-called safe accommodation.

:17:42.:17:45.

But the social worker involved made a monumental error.

:17:46.:17:51.

She disclosed our address to my ex-husband.

:17:52.:17:56.

She claimed it was his parental right to know where his

:17:57.:17:58.

And what was the result of the social worker

:17:59.:18:03.

He found us at that address, and I was assaulted again by him.

:18:04.:18:10.

And, astonishingly, this happened a second time with the same social

:18:11.:18:13.

worker after you'd been moved again to safe accommodation.

:18:14.:18:18.

Yeah, yeah, she just did exactly the same as soon as we'd been

:18:19.:18:21.

She disclosed where we'd been living.

:18:22.:18:27.

By that time, we'd also changed all our mobile numbers.

:18:28.:18:29.

She gave him our new numbers, and for the same reasoning.

:18:30.:18:35.

Even though she knew he'd carried out this revenge attack on you?

:18:36.:18:37.

Yeah, she said it was his parental right to know

:18:38.:18:41.

Do you know if that social worker has been disciplined or even

:18:42.:18:46.

Obviously, when the case had finalised, an internal review

:18:47.:18:52.

was carried out and social services acknowledged the

:18:53.:18:55.

We were told we would not find out what happened

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to the social worker, as that breached her

:19:00.:19:01.

confidentiality, her privacy rights, so I don't know

:19:02.:19:04.

Even though she'd breached your privacy rights?

:19:05.:19:07.

I think they did give you a written apology and a small

:19:08.:19:14.

amount of compensation, is that right?

:19:15.:19:16.

Yes, they obviously wrote and confirmed all the failings

:19:17.:19:20.

in the case, and voluntarily offered us a small financial settlement

:19:21.:19:23.

as a way of acknowledging their failings in the case.

:19:24.:19:26.

What do you think about what she did?

:19:27.:19:30.

When you report something like this and agencies become involved,

:19:31.:19:33.

You trust them to know they are doing the right thing,

:19:34.:19:40.

and that they are going to be there to protect you, as the victim,

:19:41.:19:44.

which is what they all advertise they are going to do.

:19:45.:19:48.

And meanwhile, this is somebody we put our trust in,

:19:49.:19:50.

and yet she completely breached our trust, which doesn't

:19:51.:19:52.

help when you're working with other agencies,

:19:53.:19:56.

because you just lose trust in everybody.

:19:57.:19:58.

It's not just the social worker you lose trust in,

:19:59.:20:00.

All the professionals who are working with you.

:20:01.:20:06.

In the meantime, over a period of months in 2014,

:20:07.:20:12.

you were dealt with by 18 different police officers.

:20:13.:20:17.

Can you give us a little bit of insight into why it was so many

:20:18.:20:20.

and what effect that had on your case.

:20:21.:20:23.

So, when the investigation started progressing after I had

:20:24.:20:26.

reported one of the rapes, that's when they discovered,

:20:27.:20:29.

obviously, my husband had involved other men.

:20:30.:20:32.

And unfortunately, instead of giving it to one specialised unit to take

:20:33.:20:35.

management of the case and investigate it, it was given

:20:36.:20:41.

to my local police station, to the original detective who had

:20:42.:20:44.

And he felt it was just impossible for him.

:20:45.:20:48.

He didn't have the resources to investigate all the incidents.

:20:49.:20:52.

So he decided he would only investigate the incidents that had

:20:53.:20:56.

occurred within the geographical area that he covered, and the rest

:20:57.:20:59.

of the incidents he farmed out to all the other areas.

:21:00.:21:03.

And so it ended up that there were 18 different officers

:21:04.:21:07.

And in practical terms, what effect does that have on you?

:21:08.:21:11.

It was horrendous, because I then had to undergo 18

:21:12.:21:14.

I had these officers constantly phoning me

:21:15.:21:17.

I had asked just to have one specific person,

:21:18.:21:26.

one person appointed as a specific point of contact,

:21:27.:21:29.

I asked if I could have one person doing all the video interviews,

:21:30.:21:36.

I couldn't cope with having to go over the story

:21:37.:21:44.

as a whole, because as much as they were investigating their own

:21:45.:21:47.

individual incidents, I still had to give the overall

:21:48.:21:52.

picture, and having to do that 18 times was just horrendous.

:21:53.:21:56.

It just became incredibly distressing.

:21:57.:21:59.

And it was so overwhelming, I think, that it led to you trying

:22:00.:22:02.

I ultimately ended up standing on a motorway bridge just

:22:03.:22:07.

wanting to put an end to it all because I couldn't cope.

:22:08.:22:11.

Four times in three months you ended up being moved,

:22:12.:22:16.

and your ex-husband was still trying to find you.

:22:17.:22:19.

But the police had stopped investigating him.

:22:20.:22:22.

When we moved into the new area, the inspector who was in charge

:22:23.:22:28.

of our safeguarding was not happy with the way in which the case was

:22:29.:22:31.

being managed in the previous force with the 18 different officers.

:22:32.:22:34.

He felt it was a safeguarding risk, so he had requested that the case be

:22:35.:22:38.

given to one specific unit and managed that way.

:22:39.:22:41.

But they refused that, and as such he put a temporary stop

:22:42.:22:47.

to all the investigations, because he said it was just

:22:48.:22:49.

At that point, they had asked us to change names.

:22:50.:22:55.

And he just felt that information would not be safe,

:22:56.:23:00.

having to disclose it to so many different police officers.

:23:01.:23:03.

He said it was impossible to safeguard us and keep our address

:23:04.:23:09.

safe, and he said, losing your life is not worth seeking justice.

:23:10.:23:14.

And he said, ultimately, that's going to happen.

:23:15.:23:18.

That was a devastating decision to have to make.

:23:19.:23:21.

Guilt that it allowed my ex-husband and the other offenders to go free,

:23:22.:23:25.

therefore allowing them to potentially go on

:23:26.:23:29.

And guilt, I suppose, from my own perspective.

:23:30.:23:36.

It felt like I was saying, it's OK that you did what you did to me.

:23:37.:23:39.

No, from the day our names changed, we were not allowed to make

:23:40.:23:49.

any reference at all to our previous names.

:23:50.:23:53.

I think if we did that, it would just be too easy to slip up.

:23:54.:23:59.

So it took quite an adjustment, a couple of weeks, for us all to get

:24:00.:24:03.

The children don't like to discuss it much with their friends.

:24:04.:24:07.

When they started school they just said they transferred

:24:08.:24:09.

What's the impact on your children on having new identities

:24:10.:24:15.

It's been incredibly difficult for them.

:24:16.:24:21.

We live in an age where all children are on social media.

:24:22.:24:24.

They are not allowed to have social media accounts.

:24:25.:24:28.

When they are with friends at school they have to be on constant alert

:24:29.:24:31.

in case somebody is taking a photo to put it on Instagram

:24:32.:24:34.

Even on themselves, the youngest walked into school one day last year

:24:35.:24:45.

and said they didn't want to be alive any more.

:24:46.:24:51.

So one of them has been suicidal, turned to self harming.

:24:52.:24:54.

Even just being able to trust a teacher, being able

:24:55.:25:03.

to trust a social worker, a police officer, incredibly

:25:04.:25:06.

How do you know he's still looking for you?

:25:07.:25:12.

The police have got intelligence that he's still looking for us.

:25:13.:25:15.

You are constantly looking over your shoulder.

:25:16.:25:25.

As much as we might feel safe in our new area,

:25:26.:25:27.

when you go out of that area you are constantly searching

:25:28.:25:30.

the crowds, worried, is he going to be there?

:25:31.:25:32.

It's constantly hanging over your head.

:25:33.:25:38.

I don't think you ever really escape that.

:25:39.:25:42.

What about your family, what about your friends,

:25:43.:25:44.

We had to cut off all contact with them.

:25:45.:25:51.

So from the day that our names were changed,

:25:52.:25:54.

So no family members, no friends, and that was very difficult,

:25:55.:26:00.

because we didn't get to phone them and say goodbye.

:26:01.:26:06.

And we didn't get to phone and say, this is why it's happening.

:26:07.:26:09.

It was just, one day you're talking to them,

:26:10.:26:11.

and the next, there's no further contact ever again.

:26:12.:26:14.

So they have no idea what's happened to you?

:26:15.:26:16.

That you've effectively disappeared off the face of the Earth?

:26:17.:26:19.

There is a chance that your ex-husband might see this interview.

:26:20.:26:27.

It's always a concern, but I think you reach a point

:26:28.:26:38.

where he has controlled so much of my life, and to still allow him

:26:39.:26:42.

to have control over what I do in the future,

:26:43.:26:44.

you get to a point where you kind of say no.

:26:45.:26:50.

I'm going to take back control over my life,

:26:51.:26:52.

and not allow you to dictate what I can and can't do.

:26:53.:26:55.

What do you hope to achieve by telling people what

:26:56.:26:59.

It's mainly in support of the campaign that

:27:00.:27:04.

Voice For Victims is running, which is trying to get

:27:05.:27:07.

the government to agree to a victim's law.

:27:08.:27:10.

At the moment, the government are happy that there

:27:11.:27:13.

And they seem to believe that's working, which it's not.

:27:14.:27:18.

There are plenty of cases like mine, where victims have been

:27:19.:27:21.

failed when they enter into the criminal justice system.

:27:22.:27:27.

So it's trying to raise awareness, highlight the failings,

:27:28.:27:29.

and try to get something concrete put down.

:27:30.:27:33.

So if failings like this happen, we can legally challenge them.

:27:34.:27:35.

Almost everything that could have gone wrong

:27:36.:27:40.

You have been failed multiple times by the criminal justice system.

:27:41.:27:46.

Yeah, there were failings across all agencies.

:27:47.:27:50.

It's awful to say that somebody can't seek justice,

:27:51.:27:56.

and we're not talking about 20 or 30 years ago, we are talking about now.

:27:57.:28:00.

And not to be able to seek justice because the criminal justice

:28:01.:28:05.

system can't protect you, or provide adequate safeguarding,

:28:06.:28:09.

is not acceptable in today's day and age, and it just

:28:10.:28:12.

That was Ivy speaking exclusively to us.

:28:13.:28:24.

Due to her anonymity and risk to her life

:28:25.:28:26.

from identifying any details, we have been unable to independently

:28:27.:28:28.

Social services in Ivy's case have acknowledged that they "fell well

:28:29.:28:35.

short of the expected standard", and she has received an apology

:28:36.:28:40.

The British Association of Social Workers also told

:28:41.:28:46.

us incidents like this "should never happen".

:28:47.:28:49.

Ivy is now involved in police training programmes,

:28:50.:28:54.

and later in the programme we'll hear from some people who've

:28:55.:28:56.

MSAs, this is a heartbreaking story. What an amazing woman. -- Ehmer

:28:57.:29:12.

says. Samantha says the story is disgusting. The authorities behind

:29:13.:29:16.

it should be ashamed. Another tweet says, social workers are leaving the

:29:17.:29:20.

profession in droves. This will add to it. Sally says, this is shocking.

:29:21.:29:27.

I thought we had come further than this. I would be interested to hear

:29:28.:29:31.

from you, if you have been in a safe location, at a safe address, and

:29:32.:29:38.

inadvertently or otherwise your address has been disclosed to

:29:39.:29:42.

somebody who was threatening you. Because on Twitter somebody has

:29:43.:29:46.

said, this happens regularly. Do let me know if you have got personal

:29:47.:29:48.

experience of this. Still to come, we've an exclusive

:29:49.:29:49.

interview with a North Korean diplomat who defected last year

:29:50.:29:51.

from its London embassy - he thinks its leader Kim Jong-un

:29:52.:29:54.

would be prepared to attack Los Angeles with nuclear

:29:55.:29:56.

weapons, if his survival And it's traditionally been thought

:29:57.:29:58.

that dogs are more intelligent than cats but new research calls

:29:59.:30:04.

that into question. This is very controversial research

:30:05.:30:20.

and you are responding. Samantha says, everyone who owns a cat

:30:21.:30:23.

already thinks they are more intelligent than dogs. I have six

:30:24.:30:28.

and they are out to do the dog every time. Stewart says cats are more

:30:29.:30:31.

intelligent than some people. Trevor agrees cats are some asthma more

:30:32.:30:37.

intelligent. Their independence prevents us from exploiting the

:30:38.:30:44.

fact. The dogs are more fun. We will talk to the researchers behind the

:30:45.:30:48.

tests which suggest cats are as good as dogs when it comes to memory

:30:49.:30:50.

tests. Here's Joanna in the BBC newsroom

:30:51.:30:54.

with a summary of today's news. President Trump is expected to sign

:30:55.:31:08.

several executive orders relating to immigration and security over the

:31:09.:31:12.

next few days. It comes as senior Republicans call on Mr Trump to drop

:31:13.:31:16.

his claim that millions of illegal immigrants voted in the presidential

:31:17.:31:20.

election. Helping rival Hillary Clinton win the popular vote.

:31:21.:31:23.

Pressure is growing on Theresa May to set out her negotiating position

:31:24.:31:28.

on Brexit in a formal document known as a White Paper which would be put

:31:29.:31:31.

It follow yesterday's Supreme Court judgment,

:31:32.:31:37.

which ruled that the Prime Minister must give Parliament a vote before

:31:38.:31:40.

triggering Article 50, the formal process for leaving the EU.

:31:41.:31:43.

It's thought a Brexit Bill could be introduced as early as tomorrow.

:31:44.:31:47.

Grammar school headteachers in England have warned that they may

:31:48.:31:49.

ask parents for hundreds of pounds a year to cope with funding cuts.

:31:50.:31:52.

The Grammar School Heads Association says proposed changes to school

:31:53.:31:55.

funding will see a majority of them lose money.

:31:56.:31:58.

A number of Conservative MPs are urging the Government

:31:59.:32:00.

But the Department for Education says it's ending a postcode

:32:01.:32:04.

Women who have a third child after being raped will now have

:32:05.:32:11.

to prove what happened to avoid losing money through new tax

:32:12.:32:13.

From April, tax credits will be limited to a family's

:32:14.:32:17.

The Government published a new so-called "rape clause"

:32:18.:32:20.

on Friday exempting women whose third or subsequent child was born

:32:21.:32:22.

The move has been described by campaigners

:32:23.:32:28.

The Government says it was "important to have an exception

:32:29.:32:35.

Women are experiencing discrimination when it comes

:32:36.:32:43.

to dress codes at work, according to a parliamentary report.

:32:44.:32:45.

MPs heard from hundreds of women who reported that the codes

:32:46.:32:48.

They began an inquiry after a receptionist was sent home

:32:49.:32:52.

A mother of two on the run from her violent ex-husband told this

:32:53.:33:04.

programme how a social worker disclosed the location of her safe

:33:05.:33:08.

house twice resulting in two vicious revenge attacks. Ivy, not her real

:33:09.:33:16.

name, was considered by police to be at high risk of being murdered. In

:33:17.:33:21.

the end the police advised her to drop the investigation into her

:33:22.:33:24.

husband as they couldn't guarantee her safety.

:33:25.:33:31.

Crystal says, "I couldn't get a restraining order against my abusive

:33:32.:33:36.

ex because my solicitor said it would give my husband the right to

:33:37.:33:43.

see our children unsupervised." . This viewer says, "This case is a

:33:44.:33:46.

disgrace." The British number one Johanna Konta

:33:47.:33:49.

is out of the Australian Open, after losing her quarter final match

:33:50.:33:58.

with the six-time Konta had been on a nine-match

:33:59.:34:00.

winning streak, but came up short in her first meeting

:34:01.:34:04.

with the 22-time She lost it in straight sets 6-2,

:34:05.:34:05.

6-3 after just over Joe Root has been declared fit

:34:06.:34:09.

to play in England's first Twenty20 He sat out England's five-run win

:34:10.:34:13.

in the final one-day But bowler David Willey has been

:34:14.:34:20.

ruled out with a shoulder injury. Sir Alex Ferguson has given

:34:21.:34:27.

the Manchester United manager Despite being sixth in the table,

:34:28.:34:29.

United are on a three-match unbeaten run in the League

:34:30.:34:33.

and Ferguson believes that's all down to the Portuguese keeping

:34:34.:34:35.

control of his emotions. England's women were held

:34:36.:34:39.

to a goalless draw with Sweden last Goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain

:34:40.:34:42.

gets the credit. Next up for Mark Sampson's team

:34:43.:34:50.

is the She Believes Cup in the USA. There are growing calls

:34:51.:34:55.

from MPs for the Government to publish its plan for Brexit

:34:56.:35:00.

in a formal policy document. So is the Prime Minister going to

:35:01.:35:15.

have to climb down? I think she may Vic, here we are the day after that

:35:16.:35:20.

big Supreme Court ruling and yes, Mrs May maybe facing defeat on part

:35:21.:35:25.

of her Brexit game plan. Just to be clear, what MPs are pressing for and

:35:26.:35:29.

we're talking not just about opposition MPs, we're talking about

:35:30.:35:32.

a handful of Conservative rebels too. They're pressing for what's

:35:33.:35:37.

called a White Paper. Now, what that basically means the Government would

:35:38.:35:42.

have to produce a formal document setting out what Mrs May's

:35:43.:35:46.

objectives and approaches to the Brexit negotiations now. Team May

:35:47.:35:51.

are saying we don't want to publish that because they think it's just a

:35:52.:35:56.

sort of wheeze, it is another demand by MPs. They say first of all, MPs

:35:57.:36:00.

demanded Mrs May set out her objectives and she did that in a

:36:01.:36:03.

speech last week and then they wanted a vote. They're getting a

:36:04.:36:06.

vote and now they're wanting a White Paper, in other words they keep

:36:07.:36:10.

asking for more and more so they are saying enough is enough. And there

:36:11.:36:14.

is another reason too, their fear is if Mrs May has to put down in black

:36:15.:36:18.

and white her game plan then that will reveal more than she wants to

:36:19.:36:23.

other EU leaders. In other words it could damage how she handle the

:36:24.:36:26.

negotiations and certainly that was the view of the former Tory leader

:36:27.:36:30.

Michael Howard when he was asked about the idea of a White Paper this

:36:31.:36:33.

morning. The risk is they set out our

:36:34.:36:37.

negotiating position and that plays into the hands of the people they're

:36:38.:36:42.

negotiating with. If you set out for example your priorities, the people

:36:43.:36:47.

you're negotiating with say, "Right, well, we can forget about the things

:36:48.:36:53.

which you say are a lesser prior because you're not really interested

:36:54.:36:57.

in them." That would be a foolish thing to do. The MPs pressing for

:36:58.:37:02.

the White Paper say, "Calm down. Calm down. There is nothing

:37:03.:37:05.

particularly dramatic about asking for a White Paper. Pretty much every

:37:06.:37:10.

Government when they've gone into EU negotiations before over other EU

:37:11.:37:14.

treaties, has always produced a White Paper so that MPs know what it

:37:15.:37:17.

is the Government is trying to achieve. And so, the Shadow

:37:18.:37:23.

Attorney-General, when she was asked this morning said that you know,

:37:24.:37:28.

Parliament has to be kept informed about the Brexit process.

:37:29.:37:33.

It's very important that Parliament is now given the role that the court

:37:34.:37:38.

said they must have. Whether you voted to Remain or to Leave the

:37:39.:37:43.

European Union, one thing is clear - you believe in Parliamentary

:37:44.:37:47.

sovereignty because that's the over Arching principle of democracy in

:37:48.:37:49.

the UK and the Government must respect that now. What happens now

:37:50.:37:53.

then, Norman? Has the court judgement changed anything really?

:37:54.:37:58.

Well, it's changed something quite fundamental if that there will now

:37:59.:38:02.

have to be a legislation to trigger this Article 50 beginning the

:38:03.:38:06.

process that takes us out of the EU and the expectation is we will get

:38:07.:38:10.

that Bill tomorrow. So the Government will show us the

:38:11.:38:13.

legislation which we are expecting it to be a very paired down

:38:14.:38:18.

minimalist Bill, just a couple of clauses which could restrict the

:38:19.:38:23.

scope for MPs to table critical amendments so it is published

:38:24.:38:26.

tomorrow. MPs probably begin to debate and vote on it next week.

:38:27.:38:31.

That will, I expect, go on for around a fortnight, by which time

:38:32.:38:35.

the Government will hope to have got the Bill through the House of

:38:36.:38:38.

Commons. There is then a sort of half term week recess so everyone

:38:39.:38:43.

goes away for a week. Then, the Government will try and get it

:38:44.:38:47.

through the House of Lords. Now that's the much more problematic

:38:48.:38:51.

business because getting legislation through the House of Lords, I mean,

:38:52.:38:55.

the House of Lords are like unruly spaniels, they pretty much do what

:38:56.:38:59.

they want when it comes to legislation, they can decide what

:39:00.:39:04.

amendments they want to take. They can decide how long they're going to

:39:05.:39:08.

talk for. They can go on forever and a day and the crucially the

:39:09.:39:11.

Government doesn't have a majority in the House of Lords so it is much

:39:12.:39:15.

more vulnerable to things going pear-shaped in the House of Lords.

:39:16.:39:16.

Thank you very much, Norman. We will have more on the war of

:39:17.:39:30.

words developing between the American press and TV networks and

:39:31.:39:39.

Donald Trump. If a woman has a third child

:39:40.:39:43.

conceived after she was raped, she will have to prove she was raped in

:39:44.:39:46.

order to claim tax credits for that child. The plan has been described

:39:47.:39:54.

as inhumane and degrading. From this April, child tax credits will be

:39:55.:39:57.

limited to family's first two children.

:39:58.:40:06.

However, they say the woman will need to provide evidence

:40:07.:40:09.

Let's get reaction to this from Alice Irving, who was raped

:40:10.:40:13.

when she was at university and now campaigns to raise awareness.

:40:14.:40:19.

She has waived her right to anonymity to talk to us this

:40:20.:40:22.

morning. And also with us is Debbie Abrahams,

:40:23.:40:26.

a Labour MP and the party's spokesperson on welfare

:40:27.:40:29.

and benefits. Alice, what do you think of this? It

:40:30.:40:37.

is appalling. I can't easily put into words how difficult it is to

:40:38.:40:40.

make the decision to disclose and to describe to somebody what's happened

:40:41.:40:45.

to you. I would say that many women choose never to disclose. There is a

:40:46.:40:49.

huge amount of shame, guilt, you know that you're unlikely to be

:40:50.:40:54.

believed and I mean, the average rape victim gets that response on a

:40:55.:40:58.

daily basis. Let alone if you're somebody who is trying to claim

:40:59.:41:02.

welfare and we know that these people are disbelieved as well. The

:41:03.:41:09.

disclosure I made was met with a poor response including to GPs which

:41:10.:41:13.

are some of the people who are being proposed to assess the credibility

:41:14.:41:17.

claims. When you are making a report in a official capacity, you're not

:41:18.:41:20.

just saying I was raped which is hard enough to get out, to establish

:41:21.:41:25.

your credibility, you are having to give them enough detail of what

:41:26.:41:28.

happened for them to believe you and to go through that process and to

:41:29.:41:31.

have those pointed questions asked is to relive that trauma. I was

:41:32.:41:35.

raped once. The woman that are going to be dealt with under this policy

:41:36.:41:40.

often will be as you've heard from, Ivy this morning, victims of

:41:41.:41:44.

systematic rape over many years and just the thought of having to be

:41:45.:41:49.

forced to choose between funding for your child and reliving that

:41:50.:41:52.

experience with somebody you wouldn't trust if I were in their

:41:53.:41:56.

position, is just, it is disgusting frankly. Debbie, can we just talk

:41:57.:42:02.

through how this might work in practical terms. After consultation

:42:03.:42:08.

between the Department for Work and Pensions and HMRC, they concluded

:42:09.:42:12.

last Friday that they would press ahead with, "A third party evidence

:42:13.:42:18.

model offering the most promising approach." So as the woman, you

:42:19.:42:25.

would have to... The burden of proof would be with you. The burden of

:42:26.:42:31.

proof would be on you, either a GP or a police officer or someone else.

:42:32.:42:38.

Who would then assess that That's my concern, really. Someone in the DWP,

:42:39.:42:45.

in a Jobcentre or health centre? Well, precisely. We don't have the

:42:46.:42:51.

details of that. We absolutely oppose this proposal which is part

:42:52.:42:58.

of the work, Welfare Reform and work Act, it is punishing rape victims

:42:59.:43:02.

and it is punishing their children and we see it in the context of a

:43:03.:43:06.

Social Security which is punitive, it is one that's based on not

:43:07.:43:11.

believing you, you have to provide the evidence and even if we compare

:43:12.:43:15.

for example the work capability assessment, evidence from GPs, and

:43:16.:43:20.

consultants often isn't believed. So this is again, as Alice has said, it

:43:21.:43:25.

is adding to the trauma and I really have concerns in terms of the

:43:26.:43:31.

competence and sensitivity in which it will be handled. As I say, we see

:43:32.:43:40.

similar sort of systems with DWP, they haven't worked well. After I

:43:41.:43:44.

have been here I'm going to the vigil of somebody who was fit for

:43:45.:43:48.

work and died after going to the Jobcentre. I mean, this is happening

:43:49.:43:52.

unfortunately too often. And this, as I say, will add to the trauma of

:43:53.:43:58.

rape victims. Further punishing children who will be driven into

:43:59.:44:03.

poverty with all the effects, not just while they're children, but for

:44:04.:44:06.

the rest of their lives. What are you going to do about it? Well, we

:44:07.:44:11.

are strongly opposing it. One of the things we have coming up is a

:44:12.:44:15.

campaign around child poverty and life chances. Dan Jarvis for example

:44:16.:44:21.

has a Bill around that to raise the public's awareness of what's

:44:22.:44:25.

happening. So this is in the context of three out of the four million

:44:26.:44:32.

children who are living in poverty are in working families so the

:44:33.:44:36.

Government's mantra has been about making work pay and so on and it's

:44:37.:44:41.

not happening for these children and as I say, in terms of the

:44:42.:44:47.

sensitivity of what's happening around rape victims, it is beyond

:44:48.:44:49.

the pail. You gave us some insight into the

:44:50.:45:03.

difficulties of what had happened to you with those in authority. What

:45:04.:45:07.

made you want to speak out publicly and wave your right to anonymity? I

:45:08.:45:12.

think the only way this is going to change is if people make the point

:45:13.:45:15.

of saying this is not being dealt with well. I was scoffed at when I

:45:16.:45:21.

tried to access emergency health care. If somebody doesn't say this

:45:22.:45:29.

is happening, it's going to keep happening. I'm in a position which I

:45:30.:45:36.

got fantastic support. I've had access to private therapy, all the

:45:37.:45:40.

support I could need to make the choice to speak out. But the point

:45:41.:45:45.

is, it is a choice. If I find it too hard, I can always stop. There is no

:45:46.:45:51.

support for these women. They are not going to have, there is nothing

:45:52.:45:58.

to say that they will have mental health support. And they are being

:45:59.:46:06.

forced, effectively, to choose between possibly child poverty for

:46:07.:46:09.

their children, or to go through this trauma. This is the context of

:46:10.:46:16.

the mental health crisis, not just the NHS crisis. The government has

:46:17.:46:22.

decided that after two children, child tax credits will be cut off.

:46:23.:46:26.

What about the principle that they are trying to find a way for women

:46:27.:46:31.

to receive a child after rape to be able to get tax credits for that

:46:32.:46:34.

child, Bud Pierce, they are also asking per evidence? It has to be

:46:35.:46:42.

looked at in the context of the real trauma that these women have been

:46:43.:46:48.

through. There is no way of describing it other than as an

:46:49.:46:51.

inhumane policy. Is this really a society that we want? We certainly

:46:52.:46:58.

will be campaigning with crisis macro and other organisations. --

:46:59.:47:05.

crisis. This is what is happening. This is a government policy. Can I

:47:06.:47:13.

add something? Even if you can prove coercion, control, rape, you cannot

:47:14.:47:17.

claim that tax credit if you are still with the perpetrator under the

:47:18.:47:20.

current policy because they don't want him to bed -- benefit. The

:47:21.:47:25.

story we heard from Ivy talked about how hard it is to leave someone like

:47:26.:47:30.

that, and how one safe it is. Not only now is in the case that we are

:47:31.:47:33.

expecting somebody who wants to access funding to help raise their

:47:34.:47:37.

child to prove rape, but also to put themselves in a very dangerous

:47:38.:47:39.

position of going through the process of leaving an abusive

:47:40.:47:45.

partner. I have some messages from our audience saying they cannot

:47:46.:47:48.

believe that this is actually going to happen. One says, hard to believe

:47:49.:47:56.

women have to prove they have been raved -- raped. Glenn says,

:47:57.:48:02.

unbelievable. What kind of sick individual would think that is

:48:03.:48:06.

acceptable? Another says, what is to stop people just saying, I was

:48:07.:48:12.

raped, to claim child tax credits? This is classic. You have two

:48:13.:48:18.

categories of people who I never believed. Rape complainants and

:48:19.:48:23.

welfare recipients. The system is rigged against these people. You

:48:24.:48:27.

would never buy choice come forward. The broad point is the whole policy

:48:28.:48:32.

itself is so questionable. If a policy requires an exception like

:48:33.:48:34.

this to even slightly function potentially humanely, you have to

:48:35.:48:43.

really question having this childcare. Spot-on. Another says,

:48:44.:48:56.

this is victimising all over again. Absolutely. Thank you both very

:48:57.:48:57.

much. Coming up, we have an exclusive

:48:58.:49:00.

interview with a North Korean diplomat who defected last year

:49:01.:49:02.

from its London embassy. He thinks its leader Kim Jong-un

:49:03.:49:08.

would be prepared to attack Los Angeles with nuclear weapons,

:49:09.:49:13.

if his survival in Chip -- Kim Jong Un, I think, will

:49:14.:49:29.

press the button of this dangerous weapons when he thinks that he is

:49:30.:49:42.

through and his dynasty is threatened to be collapsed, yes. He

:49:43.:49:47.

would destroy Los Angeles, even though the retaliation would kill

:49:48.:49:48.

him? Yes. Now, the idea that dogs are more

:49:49.:49:52.

intelligent than cats has been Japanese scientists say

:49:53.:49:55.

cats are as good as dogs at certain memory tests,

:49:56.:50:00.

suggesting they may We can speak to Dr John Bradshaw

:50:01.:50:02.

from the University Veterinary Science and presenter

:50:03.:50:18.

of the television programme, And David Kornhause

:50:19.:50:21.

from Kyoto University in Japan. John, hello. No, it's David. Hello.

:50:22.:50:39.

Tell us a little bit about this study? Yes. Well actually, I'm not

:50:40.:50:46.

the researcher, I'm the communications director for the

:50:47.:50:50.

University. The research team has been working with many different

:50:51.:50:53.

kinds of animals over the years, including dogs and cats. And what

:50:54.:51:01.

they are especially wanting to show with this new work is that cats are

:51:02.:51:05.

probably a lot more intelligent than we had imagined. There has been a

:51:06.:51:11.

sense that maybe dogs, because their reactions to dog owners are more

:51:12.:51:18.

obvious or Mortier, are some are more intelligent as a result. But

:51:19.:51:25.

actually, when the experiments are done carefully, cats are being shown

:51:26.:51:30.

to have the same kind of memory that dogs have. OK. It is quite a small

:51:31.:51:37.

study. It is 49 domestic cats. Can you tell us a little bit about the

:51:38.:51:47.

tests they went through? The tests themselves are in specific memory

:51:48.:51:52.

related to how food is being eaten by the cats. We are just showing

:51:53.:51:58.

pictures of a cat falling in a bath, which doesn't show they are

:51:59.:52:04.

particularly intelligent. It is about the bowls the eight from?

:52:05.:52:08.

Exactly. It was shown they were able to recall specific memories on their

:52:09.:52:15.

own. Not necessarily in reaction to something else. But as a fond

:52:16.:52:22.

memory. OK. And that was not expected, that was surprising? Well

:52:23.:52:28.

actually, over the years, re-searchers have been finding that

:52:29.:52:35.

it seems that many animals that we see in a domestic context have

:52:36.:52:41.

fairly similar kinds of memory and intelligence. But the way they show

:52:42.:52:46.

them and the different kinds of strengths and weaknesses they have,

:52:47.:52:48.

sometimes mask their actually ability. Let me bring in Doctor John

:52:49.:52:59.

Bradshaw. What do you think of this, John? I think that the idea that

:53:00.:53:05.

cats are as intelligent as dogs is a perfectly sensible one. We know they

:53:06.:53:11.

both have very similar brains. They are much more similar to each other

:53:12.:53:15.

than they are to humans. We would expect to find similar levels of

:53:16.:53:18.

intelligence. But as your previous speedo was saying, maybe they

:53:19.:53:22.

demonstrated differently because of the different ways they have been

:53:23.:53:30.

domesticated. OK. You observe cats. What did you discover about them?

:53:31.:53:37.

Cats are very tuned into places, places where they go, places where

:53:38.:53:41.

they can find things they want. This new research essentially confirms

:53:42.:53:46.

that in relation to food. Cats are hunters. We have kept them as

:53:47.:53:50.

hunters for most of their history while they have been domesticated.

:53:51.:53:54.

It is only recently we don't like it any more. Their minds are very much

:53:55.:54:00.

tuned in to find in their next meal. And in particular, where did they

:54:01.:54:04.

last catch a mouse? Where did they last smell a mouse that they didn't

:54:05.:54:08.

catch? That maybe the right place to go back to. That is the kind of

:54:09.:54:12.

thing that has been shown in this research. What do we do with this

:54:13.:54:18.

research, how should we... What do we do with it? I think we respect

:54:19.:54:23.

the difference. Dogs, we don't want to say cats are brighter than dogs,

:54:24.:54:27.

because they can remember which bowl used to have food in. The way dogs

:54:28.:54:37.

react, particularly, is to look at their owners, keep their eye on

:54:38.:54:42.

their owners all the time and react to that, whereas cats are more

:54:43.:54:45.

interested in the places they are in and a bit less interested in the

:54:46.:54:50.

honour. Thank you both very much. Doctor John Bradshaw. And David from

:54:51.:54:54.

Kyoto University. The daughter of Michael Jackson says

:54:55.:54:56.

she believes her father was murdered, and says he'd often

:54:57.:54:58.

"drop hints" that people Radio 1 Newsbeat's Sinead Garvan

:54:59.:55:01.

can tell us more. This is her first ever in-depth

:55:02.:55:14.

interview, which she gave to Rolling Stone magazine? She did indeed. It

:55:15.:55:17.

is the start of her wanting to launch a career as a model and

:55:18.:55:21.

aspiring actress. The whole point of it was, I will say this once and as

:55:22.:55:25.

I go about my life, the information is out there. Very revealing

:55:26.:55:31.

interview, very sad, quite dark at times. The biggest allegation she

:55:32.:55:34.

makes is that her dad was indeed murdered. Obviously what we know is

:55:35.:55:40.

he died of cardiac arrest because of an overdose of prescription drugs.

:55:41.:55:44.

And then his personal physician, Doctor Conrad Murray, served two

:55:45.:55:50.

years in jail for involuntary manslaughter. What she says is that

:55:51.:55:54.

it is obvious, all arrows point to the fact he was murdered. It sounds

:55:55.:55:59.

like a total conspiracy theory, but what -- but real fans and everybody

:56:00.:56:03.

in the family know it was a real setup. She said a lot of -ish --

:56:04.:56:08.

people had issues with Michael Jackson. She said there were times

:56:09.:56:12.

when her dad would say that there were serious people out there who

:56:13.:56:15.

wanted to get him. She said at one point they would kill him. She then

:56:16.:56:21.

goes into how this affected her mental health. And very severely, it

:56:22.:56:29.

would seem, she says she tried to kill herself three times. It is

:56:30.:56:33.

about self-hatred, low self-esteem. She then ended a up in a therapeutic

:56:34.:56:37.

high school for most of her education. This was a place where

:56:38.:56:42.

she would have her classes but also intensive therapy to deal with

:56:43.:56:46.

everything that happened. She also talked about some of the happier

:56:47.:56:52.

moments of her extraordinary life with her dad, who was Michael

:56:53.:56:56.

Jackson? Exactly. We get a lovely insight into him. She was

:56:57.:56:59.

home-schooled with her brother, Prince. That was show she would

:57:00.:57:04.

spend more time with dad. -- that was so. She said, when you are at

:57:05.:57:10.

home, dad would come in the middle of class and say, no more class for

:57:11.:57:14.

the rest of the day. She also talks about how he taught her how to cook.

:57:15.:57:23.

His speciality was fried chicken and sweet potato pie. She now lives in

:57:24.:57:27.

the studio where Michael Jackson demoed eat it. It has been turned

:57:28.:57:33.

into apartments on the Michael Jackson compound. You can imagine

:57:34.:57:38.

how much that would be worth if it was put up for auction. She tweeted

:57:39.:57:43.

last night, after the interview was published, that she wouldn't be

:57:44.:57:49.

talking about anything else. If you have questions, read it. That is her

:57:50.:57:54.

basically saying, I've said it all now. She also talked about how the

:57:55.:58:02.

allegations she made are being looked into. It is a complicate

:58:03.:58:07.

chess puzzle. Thank you very much. Thank you for your comments on save

:58:08.:58:12.

address is being disclosed to the authorities, putting you at risk. I

:58:13.:58:15.

will read some of those in the next hour. They are quite incredible. We

:58:16.:58:20.

will bring you the latest news and sport in a moment.

:58:21.:58:24.

First, the weather. Good morning. It has been a foggy start for some. In

:58:25.:58:28.

fact, we still have some of that fog around. It wasn't for the absolutely

:58:29.:58:34.

everywhere. Some of us got off to a fine start. Weather Watchers doing

:58:35.:58:39.

is proud once again this morning. As we move into Scotland, a fine start.

:58:40.:58:44.

Looking further south, it was frosty in Bristol. Not a bad start

:58:45.:58:50.

nonetheless. Then we ran into the fog. We had fog this morning in

:58:51.:58:57.

Surrey. We still have some fog around. Part of the Midlands, the

:58:58.:59:01.

South coast, north-east England as well. A lot of that will lift

:59:02.:59:06.

through the course of the morning. That is because we start pulling in

:59:07.:59:10.

some cloud from the near continent, and that will lift the fog. It will

:59:11.:59:16.

feel cold. As we drift towards the south-west, already we have got some

:59:17.:59:20.

clear skies. It is milder. Sunshine this morning across Wales. Breezy

:59:21.:59:25.

towards the West. And when the fog lifts from the Vale of York, we

:59:26.:59:29.

should see some sunshine as we should across Southern part of

:59:30.:59:32.

northern England. For Northern England and Scotland, Cloud. A mild

:59:33.:59:39.

start. Temperatures in the north-west Highlands at the moment,

:59:40.:59:45.

13 Celsius. In the north-west, severe gales. Later we will see the

:59:46.:59:50.

arrival of some rain. In the south, that fog continues to lift into low

:59:51.:59:55.

cloud. Feeling quite cold. I've towards the West we have got higher

:59:56.:59:58.

values. It is also going to be rather windy. Through this evening

:59:59.:00:02.

and overnight, not so much of a problem with fog. There will be more

:00:03.:00:06.

wind around. The wind is strongest in the West. We are looking at a

:00:07.:00:10.

widespread frost. Some of us will see snow flurry -- snow flurries or

:00:11.:00:15.

drizzle. Watch out if you're travelling early on. As we go

:00:16.:00:19.

through the course of tomorrow, again we are looking at a fine day.

:00:20.:00:23.

Some snow flurries, not enough to build a snowman. Are going to be

:00:24.:00:31.

subjected to a wind from France. That will have an ad -- an adverse

:00:32.:00:38.

effect on the cabbages. It will feel more like minus five degrees. On

:00:39.:00:45.

Friday, we still have a keen south-easterly wind. Despite the

:00:46.:00:49.

temperatures, it will feel cold. Towards the West, and Atlantic

:00:50.:00:53.

weather front is coming our way, that will introduce rain. It will

:00:54.:00:54.

bring milder conditions. This morning, a victim

:00:55.:00:59.

of domestic abuse on the run from her abusive ex-husband tells

:01:00.:01:12.

this programme a social worker disclosed the location

:01:13.:01:15.

of her secret safe house twice. She just did exactly the same as

:01:16.:01:23.

soon as we'd been move the second time. She disclosed where we had

:01:24.:01:27.

been living. By that time we had also changed all our mobile numbers.

:01:28.:01:31.

She gave him our new numbers and for the same reasoning.

:01:32.:01:34.

We will bring you reaction shortly. Also on the programme,

:01:35.:01:39.

"I swear to tell the post truth, the alternative truth and nothing

:01:40.:01:41.

like the truth" - that's how satirical magazine Private Eye

:01:42.:01:44.

mocks Donald Trump's Overnight there have been more

:01:45.:01:46.

clashes between Trump's spokesman Exactly what evidence? Speaker Ryan

:01:47.:01:58.

said there is no evidence. The national secretaries of State say

:01:59.:02:01.

they don't agree with the president's assessment. What

:02:02.:02:04.

evidence do you have? The president believed that for a while and based

:02:05.:02:06.

on studies and information he has. A North Korean diplomat who defected

:02:07.:02:10.

claims Kim Jong-un would be prepared to attack Los Angeles

:02:11.:02:13.

with nuclear weapons. We've an exclusive

:02:14.:02:15.

interview with him. Kim Jong-un, I think, will press the

:02:16.:02:29.

button. He would destroy Los Angeles even though the retaliation would

:02:30.:02:30.

kill him? Yes. Yes. Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

:02:31.:02:35.

with a summary of today's news. President Trump says he's planning

:02:36.:02:41.

what he calls a "big day" on national security,

:02:42.:02:43.

including an announcement on his pledge to build a wall along

:02:44.:02:45.

the US border with Mexico. He's expected to sign several

:02:46.:02:48.

executive orders relating to immigration and security over

:02:49.:02:51.

the next few days. It comes as senior Republicans call

:02:52.:02:54.

on Mr Trump to drop his claim that millions of illegal immigrants voted

:02:55.:02:57.

in the presidential election, helping rival Hillary Clinton

:02:58.:02:59.

win the popular vote. MPs have increased pressure

:03:00.:03:08.

on Theresa May to set out her negotiating position

:03:09.:03:12.

on Brexit in a White Paper to be It follow yesterday's

:03:13.:03:15.

Supreme Court judgment, which ruled that the Prime Minister

:03:16.:03:21.

must give Parliament a vote before triggering Article 50, the formal

:03:22.:03:23.

process for leaving the EU. It's thought legislation could be

:03:24.:03:26.

introduced as early as tomorrow. At least six people have been killed

:03:27.:03:29.

in a terror attack on a hotel in the capital of Somalia,

:03:30.:03:33.

Mogadishu. The attackers rammed

:03:34.:03:41.

the gates of the Dayah Hotel with a car full of explosives,

:03:42.:03:44.

before gunmen entered the hotel The hotel is popular with Somali

:03:45.:03:47.

politicians and foreign dignitaries. The terrorist group Al-Shabaab says

:03:48.:03:50.

it carried out the attack. A mother of two on the run

:03:51.:03:57.

from her violent ex-husband has told this programme how a social worker

:03:58.:04:01.

disclosed the location of her safe house twice, resulting in two

:04:02.:04:04.

vicious revenge attacks. Ivy, which is not her real name,

:04:05.:04:07.

was considered by police to be She told Victoria she was let down

:04:08.:04:10.

by nearly every agency supposed In the end police advised her

:04:11.:04:19.

to drop the investigation into her ex-husband as they couldn't

:04:20.:04:23.

guarantee her safety. This is somebody we put our trust in

:04:24.:04:37.

and yet she breached our trust. It's not just the social worker you lose

:04:38.:04:40.

trust in. You lose trust in everybody. All the professionals who

:04:41.:04:42.

are working with you. Three bodies have been

:04:43.:04:46.

discovered after a house fire The bodies of a man,

:04:47.:04:50.

woman and child were found in the ruins of a farm cottage

:04:51.:04:53.

following a fire which is believed A delayed upgrade to the radio

:04:54.:04:57.

system, used by the emergency services in England,

:04:58.:05:00.

Scotland and Wales, may end up costing taxpayers

:05:01.:05:02.

?475 million a year. MPs on the Public Accounts Committee

:05:03.:05:04.

say the planned new system isn't used by any other country,

:05:05.:05:08.

and needs to be properly tested. The service, which will use 4G

:05:09.:05:10.

and EE, was supposed to be ready last year but won't be

:05:11.:05:13.

available until 2019. That's a summary of

:05:14.:05:27.

the latest BBC News. Simon says, "My granddaughter was

:05:28.:05:43.

abused and put into a safe house. Last week she was chased for a debt

:05:44.:05:48.

which her former abuser had run up. She has two children and everything

:05:49.:05:55.

is weighted towards the abuse. He seems to be untouchable and gets

:05:56.:05:56.

away with everything." Do get in touch with us

:05:57.:05:59.

throughout the morning. We appreciate these messages from

:06:00.:06:07.

you with experience of the kind of issues that we're experiencing

:06:08.:06:08.

today. The British number one Johanna Konta

:06:09.:06:11.

is out of the Australian Open. She was the only Brit

:06:12.:06:16.

left in the competition, but was simply outplayed

:06:17.:06:18.

in her quarter final match with the six-time

:06:19.:06:20.

champion Serena Williams. Konta had been on a nine-match

:06:21.:06:23.

winning streak but came up short in her first meeting

:06:24.:06:26.

with the 22-time She lost it in straight

:06:27.:06:27.

sets 6-2, 6-3. They were on court

:06:28.:06:31.

for just over an hour. So Williams is now on the hunt

:06:32.:06:34.

for a 23rd title and what would be Tough for Konta of course,

:06:35.:06:38.

but she has plenty to be proud of. She hadn't even dropped

:06:39.:06:46.

a set all tournament. Well, I think overall she played at

:06:47.:06:55.

a higher level than I did today. I think she showed why she is,

:06:56.:07:00.

arguably the one of the best of all times. I think I really enjoyed my

:07:01.:07:05.

time out there on court against her. I was able to, well, I hope I will

:07:06.:07:10.

be able to bring a lot away from it and things that I will be able to

:07:11.:07:14.

reuse and hopefully I'll get a chance to play her again in other

:07:15.:07:16.

matches as well. Liverpool forward Philippe Coutinho

:07:17.:07:20.

has signed a new five-year The deal is worth about ?150,000

:07:21.:07:22.

a week and makes him the highest The Brazilian international has been

:07:23.:07:26.

hugely influential this season and his seven weeks on the sidelines

:07:27.:07:30.

with ankle ligament damage coincided with Liverpool's worst run

:07:31.:07:33.

of form this season. Manager Jurgen Klopp has described

:07:34.:07:38.

his play-maker as "world class". Joe Root has been declared fit

:07:39.:07:43.

to play in England's first Twenty20 He sat out England's five-run win

:07:44.:07:46.

in the final one-day But bowler David Willey has been

:07:47.:07:50.

ruled out with a shoulder injury. Sir Alex Ferguson says that Jose

:07:51.:08:05.

Mourinho is doing a great job at Manchester United.

:08:06.:08:12.

The Portuguese has been in charge at United for eight months,

:08:13.:08:15.

but the club currently trail leaders Chelsea by 14 points

:08:16.:08:17.

Sir Alex though, believes his old club are unlucky

:08:18.:08:21.

They haven't lost in the league for three months and the key

:08:22.:08:25.

to that, thinks the Scotsman, is Mourinho keeping

:08:26.:08:26.

I think that Jose is finding solutions now. There was a period

:08:27.:08:32.

earlier in the season when he wasn't making decisions and his emotioning

:08:33.:08:36.

boiled over. He is an emotional guy and now you see him now, he's calm

:08:37.:08:43.

and he's in control. That's the obvious observation I am making of

:08:44.:08:54.

the team now. The team is playing with great energy, determination,

:08:55.:08:57.

will to win, which I think is really important.

:08:58.:08:59.

England's women played the second of their two

:09:00.:09:01.

Norway ended their ten-match unbeaten on Sunday and they were

:09:02.:09:06.

held to a 0-0 draw with Sweden last night in Murcia.

:09:07.:09:09.

Goalkeeper, Siobhan Chamberlain, kept them in it after saving

:09:10.:09:13.

The next step in England's preparation for the European

:09:14.:09:19.

Championship this summer is the She Believes Cup,

:09:20.:09:22.

And that's all the sport. Thank you, Victoria.

:09:23.:09:30.

This morning we've bought you Ivy's story.

:09:31.:09:32.

She's a mum of two who was in hiding and on the run from her violent

:09:33.:09:38.

ex-husband when a social worker twice disclosed the details

:09:39.:09:40.

of her safe house, leading to vicious attacks.

:09:41.:09:45.

Ivy, which is not her real name, was considered by police to be

:09:46.:09:49.

We have had many comments from you which suggests this is not an

:09:50.:09:58.

isolated case. This e-mail says, "I was in a woman's aid refuge with my

:09:59.:10:03.

two children aged five and eight. And a Family Court judge ordered the

:10:04.:10:08.

refuge manager to divulge the address of the house or she, the

:10:09.:10:12.

manager, would be held in contempt of court. The same judge then

:10:13.:10:16.

ordered that I let the children return to the home. So I felt I had

:10:17.:10:21.

no choice, but to return with them. The judge was later criticised by a

:10:22.:10:26.

High Court judge. This was 18 years ago. But from your story this

:10:27.:10:29.

morning, there is still so much work to do to keep victims of domestic

:10:30.:10:34.

violence safe." Sue e-mails to say, "I would like to say that this is

:10:35.:10:38.

shocking, but unfortunately I don't think it is so unusual for agencies

:10:39.:10:42.

to fail victims. I'm not sure if it's because the law is not victim

:10:43.:10:48.

focussed or whether it's because of individual personalities working

:10:49.:10:51.

within agencies making personal judgements instead of following

:10:52.:10:54.

proper procedures and using due diligence. Shame on those who failed

:10:55.:11:01.

Ivy's family in a spectacular way." This e-mailer says, "It makes my

:11:02.:11:06.

blood run cold as my daughter is going through something similar.

:11:07.:11:09.

Having survived two strangulation attempts and beatings and knife

:11:10.:11:13.

threats and an explosion in her home and much more including harm to

:11:14.:11:18.

their son and friend's two boys, she finally got him out of their rented

:11:19.:11:24.

accommodation in early December." Well, social services have

:11:25.:11:27.

apologised for failings in Ivy's case. We played you her full

:11:28.:11:32.

interview earlier. Here is an extract. It is distressing and there

:11:33.:11:35.

are some details that you might not want children to hear.

:11:36.:11:42.

It started off with sexual violence, so raping, and then progressed

:11:43.:11:45.

from there to physical violence, which started out as

:11:46.:11:47.

And then slowly progressed from there.

:11:48.:11:53.

There were weapons involved, in terms of a knife.

:11:54.:11:55.

Strangling me until I was unconscious.

:11:56.:11:59.

And then, later on, he involved other men,

:12:00.:12:01.

which obviously included raping by other men.

:12:02.:12:05.

What impact did all this have on you?

:12:06.:12:07.

I now suffer with complex post-traumatic stress disorder.

:12:08.:12:10.

I find it very hard to trust anybody.

:12:11.:12:22.

Eventually, the authorities realised you were at risk

:12:23.:12:25.

of very serious harm, and your children, and they moved

:12:26.:12:28.

But the social worker involved made a monumental error.

:12:29.:12:35.

She disclosed our address to my ex-husband.

:12:36.:12:37.

She claimed it was his parental right to know where his

:12:38.:12:40.

And what was the result of the social worker

:12:41.:12:45.

He found us at that address, and I was assaulted again by him.

:12:46.:12:53.

And, astonishingly, this happened a second time with the same social

:12:54.:12:57.

worker after you'd been moved again to safe accommodation.

:12:58.:13:00.

Yeah, yeah, she just did exactly the same as soon as we'd been

:13:01.:13:03.

You were dealt with by 18 different police officers.

:13:04.:13:10.

The original detective who had taken over the case,

:13:11.:13:15.

he decided he would only investigate the incidents that had occurred

:13:16.:13:18.

within the geographical area that he covered,

:13:19.:13:20.

and the rest of the incidents he farmed out to all the other areas.

:13:21.:13:23.

And so it ended up that there were 18 different officers

:13:24.:13:27.

I ultimately ended up standing on a motorway bridge just

:13:28.:13:32.

wanting to put an end to it all because I couldn't cope.

:13:33.:13:37.

Your ex-husband was still trying to find you.

:13:38.:13:39.

But the police had stopped investigating him.

:13:40.:13:42.

When we moved into the new area, the inspector who was in charge

:13:43.:13:48.

of our safeguarding, he said it was just impossible

:13:49.:13:50.

And he said, losing your life is not worth seeking justice.

:13:51.:13:56.

They are not allowed to have social media accounts.

:13:57.:14:00.

When they are with friends at school they have to be on constant alert

:14:01.:14:04.

One of them has been suicidal, turned to self harming.

:14:05.:14:10.

What do you hope to achieve by telling people what

:14:11.:14:17.

At the moment, the Government are happy that there

:14:18.:14:24.

And they seem to believe that's working, which it's not.

:14:25.:14:27.

It's awful to say that somebody can't seek justice,

:14:28.:14:30.

And Ivy's words were spoken for her then.

:14:31.:14:39.

Due to her levels of anonymity and the risk to her life

:14:40.:14:43.

from identifying any details, we have been unable to independently

:14:44.:14:45.

Watching that with us was Claire Waxman, a victim

:14:46.:14:51.

of stalking for 12 years and founder of Voice 4 Victims, which gives

:14:52.:14:54.

support to victims who are going through the criminal justice system.

:14:55.:14:59.

And Baroness Sal Brinton, who met Ivy as part

:15:00.:15:04.

She's trying to make amendments to the Victims Code

:15:05.:15:07.

in the House of Lords, to make it a statutory obligation.

:15:08.:15:15.

To make sure the relevant agencies do their job. Can we just talk about

:15:16.:15:22.

the social worker who twice disclosed the safe address to the

:15:23.:15:27.

violent ex-husband? I cannot get into the head of that social worker.

:15:28.:15:31.

You are telling me this is not an isolated case. Sadly not. Obviously,

:15:32.:15:39.

Ivy's cases extreme and harrowing. But I'm hearing daily from victims

:15:40.:15:45.

of all crime types who come to us, where their rights have been

:15:46.:15:49.

breached, where you have multiple agencies, not just social workers,

:15:50.:15:53.

people within the police, the courts, disclosing sensitive and

:15:54.:15:56.

personal information that rebuilds their identity or save addresses,

:15:57.:16:03.

that is quite common, sadly. In this particular case, it is so obvious

:16:04.:16:09.

that if the former husband comes and beats her up because he has now got

:16:10.:16:13.

her address, once, if he gets the second address, he will Dudi Sela

:16:14.:16:18.

thing. The social worker, and I'm only speculating, they don't see the

:16:19.:16:26.

point of view of the victim. They don't seem to get it. It is

:16:27.:16:30.

entrenched within the system. It is geared towards the abuser's rides.

:16:31.:16:36.

They seem to be manipulated by them. They seem to push more towards their

:16:37.:16:43.

side. With the victims law we want to make the system fair for

:16:44.:16:50.

everybody. Sal Brinton, what did you make of what Ivy has experienced? It

:16:51.:16:58.

was extreme but not unusual. There are plenty of victims I've talked to

:16:59.:17:03.

who have had some of the experiences that Ivy had. Ivy's story is

:17:04.:17:08.

particularly horrific. Everything seems to have gone wrong at every

:17:09.:17:12.

particular stage. But for one woman, for one thing to go wrong company as

:17:13.:17:16.

bad as the incident itself that actually brought her perpetrator

:17:17.:17:20.

into the criminal justice system. And that is the problem. Ministers

:17:21.:17:24.

keep saying the victim 's code is fine, it is there, victims have an

:17:25.:17:30.

entitlement. For example, to one police contact, one number.

:17:31.:17:37.

Repeatedly it doesn't happen. The real problem is there is no duty on

:17:38.:17:44.

the agencies to fulfil the victims' code. That is why we have been

:17:45.:17:52.

asking for a victims' law. Of course there is a duty to safeguard

:17:53.:17:58.

victims. It is their job. Some of them are. Unfortunately, it is

:17:59.:18:03.

patchy. That is because there is no duty on, for example, police, to

:18:04.:18:07.

provide proper training at all levels for everyone who comes into

:18:08.:18:09.

contact with the victims. Because it is not law. We haven't got the

:18:10.:18:17.

fundamental to right. The system is flawed and disjointed. There are

:18:18.:18:21.

lots of gaps. What we are pushing for it is a case companion who would

:18:22.:18:25.

bridge those gaps from agency to agency on behalf of the victim. In

:18:26.:18:30.

Ivy's case that would have helped to alert the issues. Make sure there is

:18:31.:18:34.

one point of contact for police interviews. There are enhanced

:18:35.:18:38.

entitlements for a victim such as Ivy, a vulnerable victim of sexual

:18:39.:18:44.

violence. She should have had the same sex officer, she should have

:18:45.:18:47.

that one officer. They should have limited it but they failed. But that

:18:48.:18:52.

is just one fairing of lots of feelings because the agencies are

:18:53.:18:55.

not adhering to the code. They don't understand what is within the code.

:18:56.:19:01.

That is the fundamental problem. And the notion that in the end she was

:19:02.:19:05.

advised to drop the case because the detective who did care and who was

:19:06.:19:09.

trying to do his job properly, couldn't guarantee that all of the

:19:10.:19:13.

other officers who would be involved might inadvertently disclose her

:19:14.:19:18.

location again? Absolutely. We have heard evidence from the families of

:19:19.:19:27.

people who have been murdered. Alice, who was on early, would not

:19:28.:19:33.

be covered by the victims' code because it excludes the Department

:19:34.:19:36.

for Work and Pensions and the National health service. There are

:19:37.:19:44.

holes in the victim's code. In terms of your campaign, which you have

:19:45.:19:48.

been running for three years, where are you up to in terms of trying to

:19:49.:19:57.

make the victims' code law? Last week we got a concession. We met

:19:58.:20:01.

with the ministers. The ministers were firm. They said to us that the

:20:02.:20:07.

code works. We said it didn't. You are not seeing the evidence. We are

:20:08.:20:10.

giving report after report. We giving you case studies. We can't

:20:11.:20:16.

show of how much this code is failing. They have made a concession

:20:17.:20:19.

to a 12 month time frame where they can review the code, look at making

:20:20.:20:27.

agencies accountable, so that we, the victims, will continue to hold

:20:28.:20:31.

the government to account on that. We have got a statement. We asked

:20:32.:20:35.

for an interview with someone from the Department of Justice and they

:20:36.:20:38.

gave us a statement. They recognise more needs to be done which is why

:20:39.:20:43.

they have committed to strengthening victims' rights. They will set out

:20:44.:20:46.

their strategy in due course. What does that mean? Nothing at the

:20:47.:20:51.

moment because that is what they have been saying for the last couple

:20:52.:20:55.

of years. That is less strong than the ministers said to me in the

:20:56.:20:58.

chamber last week, where she said specifically they would bring

:20:59.:21:01.

forward legislation to make sure the agencies fulfilled their duties if

:21:02.:21:06.

the review showed that is not happening. I will hold them to

:21:07.:21:11.

account. They are not seeing this as a priority. They are being told by

:21:12.:21:14.

officers that that code is working fine. We have heard all of the

:21:15.:21:20.

victims' agencies of terrible failings. Putting victims at high

:21:21.:21:27.

risk and creating more trauma. They need to take action now. We have to

:21:28.:21:31.

keep pushing them. Thank you for coming in. Claire Waxman and

:21:32.:21:37.

Baroness Sal Brinton. We will continue to follow their progress.

:21:38.:21:40.

It's not even been a week since President Donald Trump's

:21:41.:21:42.

inauguration, and there's a war of words developing with

:21:43.:21:44.

A man at the heart of the row is President Trump's press

:21:45.:21:48.

He's repeatedly accused the mainstream media of lying

:21:49.:21:52.

about how many people had turned out for Friday's inauguration,

:21:53.:21:57.

despite images which seemed to show otherwise.

:21:58.:22:01.

This gave rise to the phrase "alternative facts", as one

:22:02.:22:03.

of his colleagues, KellyAnne Conway, defended him.

:22:04.:22:07.

It's a phrase we're going to be hearing a lot

:22:08.:22:11.

The White House Chief of Staff, Reince Priebus, went further,

:22:12.:22:15.

accusing parts of the American media of trying to "de-legitimise"

:22:16.:22:17.

So will the world of alternative facts harm his presidency,

:22:18.:22:24.

or will the traditional media be the losers,

:22:25.:22:26.

as Trump continues his direct connection with his voters

:22:27.:22:29.

Here's some of what happened in a press conference last night

:22:30.:22:33.

Does the president believe that millions voted illegally in this

:22:34.:22:41.

election and what evidence do you have of widespread voter fraud

:22:42.:22:44.

I think he stated his concerns voter fraud and people voting illegally

:22:45.:22:52.

during the campaign and he continues to maintain that belief based

:22:53.:22:55.

on studies and evidence that people presented to him.

:22:56.:22:58.

Speaker Ryan said there is no evidence.

:22:59.:23:03.

The National Association of Secretaries of State say

:23:04.:23:05.

that they don't agree with the president's assessment.

:23:06.:23:07.

As I said, I think the president has believed that for

:23:08.:23:11.

He again asserted that he would have won the popular vote

:23:12.:23:16.

if it weren't for three to five million illegal votes.

:23:17.:23:19.

Did you feel the need to correct him?

:23:20.:23:21.

Does it trouble you that he continues to hold a belief like this

:23:22.:23:24.

Look, I've already commented on that.

:23:25.:23:27.

I have seen no evidence to that effect and I've made

:23:28.:23:30.

The president of the United States is claiming that 3.5 million

:23:31.:23:36.

people voted illegally, that shakes confidence

:23:37.:23:39.

He needs to disclose why he believes that are.

:23:40.:23:45.

It is most inappropriate thing for the president

:23:46.:23:48.

Photographs of the inaugural proceedings were intentionally

:23:49.:23:57.

framed in a way in one particular tweet to minimise the enormous

:23:58.:24:01.

support that it gathered on the national mall.

:24:02.:24:05.

We know that 420,000 people used the DC Metro Public Transit

:24:06.:24:08.

yesterday which is actually compares to 317,000 that used it for

:24:09.:24:13.

This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration

:24:14.:24:21.

period both in person and around the globe.

:24:22.:24:24.

You're saying it is a falsehood and they're giving shaken Spicer,

:24:25.:24:26.

our press secretary gave alternatives facts to that,

:24:27.:24:28.

Alternative facts for the five facts he uttered.

:24:29.:24:40.

Look alternative facts are not facts.

:24:41.:24:43.

Chuck, do you think it's a fact or not that millions of people have

:24:44.:24:47.

lost their plans or health insurance and their doctors

:24:48.:24:50.

Do you think it is a fact that everything we heard from these women

:24:51.:24:54.

yesterday happeneded on the watch of Barack Obama?

:24:55.:24:56.

Donald Trump has been here more about eight hours.

:24:57.:25:00.

Is it your intention to always tell the truth from that podium

:25:01.:25:06.

and will you pledge to never glowingingly say that's not factual?

:25:07.:25:09.

It is an honour to do this and yes, I believe that we have to be honest

:25:10.:25:14.

I think sometimes we can disagree with the facts.

:25:15.:25:18.

Let's talk now to Thomas Friedman, New York Times columnist.

:25:19.:25:20.

He says President Trump's distortion of the truth makes him

:25:21.:25:24.

President Trump paid his company $94 million to run his digital campaign

:25:25.:25:35.

Journalist Steve Gruber runs a Conservative talk show.

:25:36.:25:38.

He's in Michigan, voted for Donald Trump and

:25:39.:25:40.

he says Mr Trump will easily win a second term in 2020

:25:41.:25:43.

if the press continue to attack him unnecessarily.

:25:44.:25:45.

We're also joined by Jena Friedman, a Democrat and stand-up

:25:46.:25:47.

comedian who has worked on the The Daily Show.

:25:48.:25:54.

Thomas Friedman, we heard Sean Spicer sing the New York Times had

:25:55.:25:58.

got it wrong. How are you responding? The facts are the facts.

:25:59.:26:07.

We have photos, we have the numbers. How many people turned out for

:26:08.:26:11.

Obama's first inauguration, how many turned out for this. You can't say

:26:12.:26:17.

the Earth revolves around the sun and you think the sun revolves

:26:18.:26:21.

around the earth. Maths is maths. Two plus two never adds up to five.

:26:22.:26:28.

This administration seems to have a certain proclivity for a making of

:26:29.:26:31.

their own map. Eventually it will completely undermine them because

:26:32.:26:36.

I've just written a new book, which is about the moment that we are in

:26:37.:26:40.

right now. We are in a moment of incredible acceleration, where small

:26:41.:26:45.

areas of navigation can have huge consequences. On one of the problems

:26:46.:26:50.

Trump will have is, sometime in the next few months, North Korea, for

:26:51.:26:56.

example, the CAA will tell the president they have developed a

:26:57.:26:58.

long-range missile that can hit Los Angeles. -- the CIA. Maybe something

:26:59.:27:06.

bad will go wrong. He will have to come to the American people and say,

:27:07.:27:10.

look, these were the facts. And people will say, are those like the

:27:11.:27:16.

fact that two plus two added up to five at the inauguration? He is

:27:17.:27:21.

setting himself up to completely undermine his leadership. Steve

:27:22.:27:24.

Gruber, you are shaking your head in disagreement. Let's start with this.

:27:25.:27:33.

Three electoral votes to two of the Win32. Hillary Clinton's turnout for

:27:34.:27:37.

his inauguration was zero. The fact that the matter is Donald Trump was

:27:38.:27:40.

doing exactly what the people elected him to do, to deal with TPP,

:27:41.:27:46.

the keystone pipeline, jobs and immigration. The distraction of

:27:47.:27:49.

crowd size and illegal voting is all fine and well... You may be right

:27:50.:27:57.

using the word distraction. But why is Sean Spicer disputing facts? I

:27:58.:28:02.

was there and it looked like a million people to me. What matters

:28:03.:28:07.

honestly, seriously, this is what matters in people in Michigan where

:28:08.:28:13.

I am, Donald Trump will carry Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania.

:28:14.:28:24.

Can you imagine leaders who had endorsed Hillary Clinton are now on

:28:25.:28:28.

board the Donald Trump bandwagon. If Madonna, Ashley Judd, if the media,

:28:29.:28:32.

if everybody across America continue to attack Donald Trump in this way,

:28:33.:28:37.

the silent majority that arose up in the middle of America, in the middle

:28:38.:28:41.

class working families and home, will return Donald Trump to the

:28:42.:28:44.

White House once again. I say put Michael Moore on tour. We would like

:28:45.:28:48.

to see him every day and hear what he has to say. It helps Donald

:28:49.:28:55.

Trump's calls every day. You not answering the question. The question

:28:56.:29:01.

was, it was a lie. I think it's interesting with pundits how you

:29:02.:29:05.

talk so quickly that you can kind of avoid Victoria's question. I didn't

:29:06.:29:15.

avoid any questions. You chose to talk about the oil pipeline and the

:29:16.:29:20.

workers. Absolutely, that is a huge issue. That is what he was elected

:29:21.:29:26.

to do. Absolutely but we are talking about the facts that Sean Spicer has

:29:27.:29:34.

disputed at the weekend. It was suggested they are putting forward

:29:35.:29:37.

alternative facts, which we know our lives. What is your question? Why

:29:38.:29:45.

are you doing that? Are you saying illegal aliens didn't vote? Of

:29:46.:29:49.

course they voted. We should do an investigation of illegal voting in

:29:50.:29:53.

this country. Donald Trump likes to win and run the table at everything

:29:54.:30:04.

he does. Talk about alternative facts. Voter suppression where?

:30:05.:30:10.

Demonstrate something. You cannot. North Carolina. Site Mac --. You

:30:11.:30:15.

have no proof. That isn't the outrageous. You have no proof. Is

:30:16.:30:19.

the Trump administration making claims that are false? I don't think

:30:20.:30:27.

so. I was at the inauguration. It was considerably. I think all of

:30:28.:30:29.

this stuff is BS. If I look at my photo, I took one of

:30:30.:30:41.

the very last photos, there are no blank spots. That photo was taken an

:30:42.:30:46.

hour-and-a-half before the end. I happen to agree with that. I was

:30:47.:30:56.

live at the inauguration myself. Do you know what the good news is?

:30:57.:31:01.

We don't have Article 50 in America and we will continue on with our

:31:02.:31:07.

president Donald Trump who was elected with 57% of the electoral

:31:08.:31:14.

college. What people are disputing is the fact that he is president. I

:31:15.:31:19.

would like him to succeed, OK. Shut shut up for a second! I would like

:31:20.:31:22.

to see him succeed because unfortunately we're all in the same

:31:23.:31:26.

boat with him, but he's not going to succeed if we get into a crisis

:31:27.:31:31.

where the facts are on his side, but he is so repeatedly lied that we are

:31:32.:31:37.

going to not believe him when we actually need to. No one is

:31:38.:31:41.

disputing his election. That's not the issue here. Clearly, you

:31:42.:31:49.

supported. What does that have to do with anything? You said you'd

:31:50.:31:56.

support him in a crisis. Let me bring in Brad because Brad worked...

:31:57.:32:02.

My impression was that the sun was revolving around the Earth. We got

:32:03.:32:08.

that point! Brad, you worked on Brand Trump. Is that the right thing

:32:09.:32:16.

to do? Is it the right thing to do? There is a lot going on. I think the

:32:17.:32:28.

press continues to try and push doubt and delegitimise who Donald

:32:29.:32:31.

Trump is and it is important to make sure you hold the press accountable

:32:32.:32:36.

and those pictures and images that were put up is false. The time

:32:37.:32:42.

stamps were different. He did lose the popular vote, you guys. There is

:32:43.:32:46.

still something to debate about the fact that it wasn't like a mandate.

:32:47.:32:49.

He doesn't have a mandate. Just saying. As we continue to talk about

:32:50.:32:56.

size, if size matters... For the Liberal Democrats is the media. If I

:32:57.:33:00.

had enough money to compete against all of them as well, we probably

:33:01.:33:05.

would have won the popular vote. Donald Trump has been successful for

:33:06.:33:09.

18 months taking shots at the media. It worked for him. In America the

:33:10.:33:12.

institutions that are least trusted or Congress and the media comes in

:33:13.:33:18.

behind Congress. They are not respected and not trusted. A final

:33:19.:33:25.

word from Thomas, the New York Times columnist, how are you going to play

:33:26.:33:28.

this through Donald Trump's presidency? All we can do is what we

:33:29.:33:34.

do and try to report the news accurately without fear or favour.

:33:35.:33:40.

Do you it day in and day out and if we make mistakes, which we do, you

:33:41.:33:45.

correct them. That's all you can ask of the press, but that's all you can

:33:46.:33:49.

ask of a president. If people get the feeling that this is a man who

:33:50.:33:53.

just makes stuff up, we will reach a crisis point where that's really

:33:54.:33:57.

going to matter because we're going to do something big and hard and he

:33:58.:34:00.

will need the American people to believe him. And we don't. Thank

:34:01.:34:06.

you. Thank you very much all of you. Thank you for your time. Steve voted

:34:07.:34:13.

for Donald Trump, Brad was working for President Trump on the

:34:14.:34:17.

presidential campaign, on the Trump presidential campaign running the

:34:18.:34:24.

digital side of things. Jenna who voted Democrat and Thomas, from the

:34:25.:34:26.

New York Times. A young Syrian girl has written an

:34:27.:34:43.

open letter to Donald Trump. She was tweeting about her life in the

:34:44.:34:45.

besieged part of the city. One of her first tweets says:

:34:46.:34:50.

She's in East Aleppo, and it's her last moment to either

:34:51.:34:52.

live or die. She goes on to say,

:34:53.:34:56.

"My dad is injured now. In another, she tells her growing

:34:57.:34:58.

number of followers she's happy She shared a lot of pictures

:34:59.:35:07.

of other children in Aleppo before she was evacuated in December,

:35:08.:35:13.

hoping to return home one day. Bana's mother has been criticised.

:35:14.:35:33.

Some Here is the little girl's letter to Mr Trump.

:35:34.:35:37.

"Dear Donald Trump, my name is Bana Alabed and I am a seven

:35:38.:35:40.

I lived in Syria my whole life before I left from besieged

:35:41.:35:46.

I am part of the Syrian children who suffered from the Syrian war.

:35:47.:35:54.

But right now, I am having a peace in my new home of Turkey.

:35:55.:35:58.

In Aleppo, I was in school, but soon it was destroyed

:35:59.:36:01.

I'm very sad about them and wish they were with me

:36:02.:36:07.

because we would play together by right now.

:36:08.:36:09.

I couldn't play in Aleppo, it was the city of death.

:36:10.:36:12.

Right now in Turkey, I can go out and enjoy.

:36:13.:36:14.

I can go to school although I didn't yet.

:36:15.:36:18.

That is why peace is important for everyone including you.

:36:19.:36:24.

However, millions of Syrian children are not like me right now

:36:25.:36:27.

and suffering in different parts of Syria.

:36:28.:36:30.

They're suffering because of adult people.

:36:31.:36:34.

I know you will be the president of America, so can you please save

:36:35.:36:38.

You must do something for the children of Syria

:36:39.:36:43.

because they're like your children and deserve peace like you.

:36:44.:36:46.

If you promise me you will do something for the children of Syria,

:36:47.:36:49.

I'm looking forward to what you will do for the children of Syria."

:36:50.:37:02.

This news just in from the Metropolitan Police. A man has been

:37:03.:37:11.

arrested of suspicion of rationally aggravated malicious communications.

:37:12.:37:14.

Tom Symonds is here. Fill us in. Well, we understand this is related

:37:15.:37:19.

to the case of Gina Miller, the named party as the lawyers would

:37:20.:37:24.

call her in the Supreme Court case relating to Brexit and now in is an

:37:25.:37:29.

arrest of a 50-year-old man in Knightsbridge, related to as you say

:37:30.:37:33.

the malicious communications. Malicious communications made, the

:37:34.:37:36.

Met says on 6th November. That's three days after the Appeal Court

:37:37.:37:41.

judgement in the Brexit case, so that's the first lower court that

:37:42.:37:45.

considered this. And we understand also that it is linked to unrelated

:37:46.:37:50.

comments made by the same suspect in August 2016 and also at the same

:37:51.:37:56.

investigation which is a team from something called Operation Falcon

:37:57.:38:00.

which specialises in tracing people online and talking to social media

:38:01.:38:04.

companies that they in a similar investigation arrest add 55-year-old

:38:05.:38:07.

man in Swindon in early December. Now, we know that was connected to

:38:08.:38:13.

complaints made by Gina Miller. So, clearly, an investigation going on

:38:14.:38:17.

into concerns about what is said about her online. Thank you. Tom

:38:18.:38:20.

Symonds. A North Korean diplomat who defected

:38:21.:38:28.

last year from its London embassy has told the BBC

:38:29.:38:31.

he thinks its leader Kim Jong-un would be prepared to attack

:38:32.:38:33.

Los Angeles with nuclear weapons, if his survival in

:38:34.:38:36.

power depended on it. The high-ranking defector,

:38:37.:38:38.

Thae Yong-ho, says the North Korean leader doesn't yet have

:38:39.:38:40.

the capability, but is getting closer to an effective

:38:41.:38:42.

nuclear arsenal. I'm sure that my relatives,

:38:43.:38:45.

and my brother and sister's families by now are all sent to either remote

:38:46.:38:57.

closed areas, or prison camps, you know, so that

:38:58.:39:00.

really breaks my heart. If you could imagine your brother

:39:01.:39:09.

shouting at you, "why Oh, that is really, you know,

:39:10.:39:16.

a question which I do not like even to think about,

:39:17.:39:35.

yes, but that's why I'm very much now determined to do everything

:39:36.:39:40.

possible to pull down the North Korean regime,

:39:41.:39:45.

to save not only my family members but the whole North Korean

:39:46.:39:48.

people from slavery. Do you think you'll ever

:39:49.:39:56.

see your brother again? I'm absolutely sure,

:39:57.:39:58.

and this is my dream, If, when Kim Jong-un

:39:59.:40:02.

gets the bomb properly, and missiles to deliver,

:40:03.:40:12.

is he capable of pressing that Oh, Kim Jong-un knows quite well

:40:13.:40:14.

that a nuclear weapon is the only guarantee for his rule,

:40:15.:40:22.

and Kim Jong-un, I think, will press the button of this

:40:23.:40:29.

dangerous, you know, the weapons, when he thinks

:40:30.:40:43.

that his rule and his dynasty is threatened, you know,

:40:44.:40:49.

to be collapsed. He would destroy Los

:40:50.:41:03.

Angeles, even though Yes, yes, because he knew that

:41:04.:41:06.

if he loses the power, then it is his last day,

:41:07.:41:15.

so he may do anything, you know, even to attack

:41:16.:41:24.

Los Angeles, because, you know, once the people know that

:41:25.:41:33.

in any way you will be killed, That is the human

:41:34.:41:41.

being's normal reaction. How do you think Kim Jong-un

:41:42.:41:51.

will end his days? Is he going to die

:41:52.:41:54.

peacefully in his own bed? I'm sure that the Kim Jong-un regime

:41:55.:41:56.

will one day collapse That was Thae Yong-ho,

:41:57.:42:05.

a North Korean diplomat who defected He said had been persuaded

:42:06.:42:17.

to defect by his younger son who kept asking about the true

:42:18.:42:27.

nature of life inside North Korea. So how does the secretive

:42:28.:42:30.

state function? We can talk now to Jihyun Park,

:42:31.:45:39.

who defected twice from North Korea. She's now living here in Britain

:45:40.:45:44.

and campaigns for Human Rights She's been here watching

:45:45.:45:47.

that interview with us. Good morning. You have seen what the

:45:48.:46:00.

diplomat has revealed about North Korea. What do you think about what

:46:01.:46:06.

he said? Firstly I would like to say to him congratulations. I totally

:46:07.:46:22.

agreed with him. He said that North Korea is not a democratic country.

:46:23.:46:28.

It is a slavery country. I totally agree with him. He said that he

:46:29.:46:45.

watched South Korea's shows and drama and listened to South Korea

:46:46.:46:46.

radio. Him and the media... Is that how you

:46:47.:47:09.

would describe how you felt when you are living there, you were

:47:10.:47:17.

brainwashed? Yes. I lived in North Korea. We always learned about the

:47:18.:47:31.

Kim families, their histories. We always respected to him. We always

:47:32.:47:38.

showed happiness to them. Even when you are experiencing salmon. You

:47:39.:47:42.

witnessed members of your own family dying of starvation, but you had to

:47:43.:47:50.

respect that family? Yes, I saw my family die in front of me. I just

:47:51.:47:57.

hated Americans and South Korea. They did something to us. We hadn't

:47:58.:48:06.

got any proof. I hated them. You eventually got out. But you ended up

:48:07.:48:10.

been the victim of traffickers and were sold to someone in China. The

:48:11.:48:15.

police caught you and to give back to North Korea. What was that like?

:48:16.:48:22.

Many North Korean refugees escaped North Korea. In the 1990s there was

:48:23.:48:35.

famine in North Korea. People only want to survive, so they escaped and

:48:36.:48:45.

went to China. But the Chinese Godman never accepted the refugees.

:48:46.:48:50.

The Chinese government abandoned us. -- government. I went to the Labour

:48:51.:48:59.

camp for six months. What is it like working in a labour camp? When I

:49:00.:49:06.

went there for the first time, we had no clothes. Are you saying you

:49:07.:49:15.

were naked, or might they gave used off to where? Yes. They searched our

:49:16.:49:29.

bodies. Many people hide money. You are strip-searched? Yes. They search

:49:30.:49:48.

everywhere. I was very ashamed. Not only once. It happened several

:49:49.:49:55.

times. After I went to the Labour camp... We hadn't got anything with

:49:56.:50:04.

us. Only hands and our bare feet. What work or you do in there? Farm

:50:05.:50:10.

work. -- what work were you doing there? Also, another problem is

:50:11.:50:22.

there is no toilet in the Labour camp.

:50:23.:50:37.

Other women worked with me. One woman was three months pregnant. The

:50:38.:50:49.

North Korean government wouldn't accept this baby.

:50:50.:51:01.

This man put some sand in his sock and rain to the mountain. And after,

:51:02.:51:11.

she miscarried the baby. So she had to put a heavy bag on and run up and

:51:12.:51:17.

down the mountain to miscarry the baby? Yes.

:51:18.:51:33.

We used to run. Not what. Thank you so much for giving us and insight. I

:51:34.:51:42.

know you've found some of that very difficult. I really appreciate what

:51:43.:51:44.

you have told us today. Thank you. Next, plans which force women

:51:45.:51:54.

to prove that a third child has been born as a result of rape,

:51:55.:51:57.

in order to claim tax credits, have been described

:51:58.:52:00.

as "inhumane" and "degrading". From April, Child Tax Credit will be

:52:01.:52:07.

limited to a family's first two children -

:52:08.:52:11.

but the government announced an exception to that for women whose

:52:12.:52:13.

third or subsequent child was born However, they say the woman

:52:14.:52:16.

will need to provide evidence Earlier this morning,

:52:17.:52:20.

two women who have been raped, One woman who has been raped, spoke

:52:21.:52:37.

earlier. They scoffed at me when I told them.

:52:38.:52:44.

The first police officer I spoke to said it was sex without regrets. If

:52:45.:52:48.

somebody doesn't say this is happening, it will keep happening.

:52:49.:52:53.

I'm in a position which I've got fantastic support. I've had access

:52:54.:52:57.

to private therapy, all the support I could possibly need to make the

:52:58.:53:00.

choice to speak about this. But the point is it is a choice. If I find

:53:01.:53:07.

it too hard, I can stop. If you ask me a question, I could say no. There

:53:08.:53:12.

is no support for these women. There is nothing to say go through this

:53:13.:53:17.

traumatising experience and we will ensure you have mental health

:53:18.:53:20.

support. None of that at all. They are being forced effectively to

:53:21.:53:26.

choose between possibly child poverty for their children or to go

:53:27.:53:27.

through this drama. We wanted to speak to the Department

:53:28.:53:29.

for Work and Pensions about this, but they turned down our request

:53:30.:53:32.

for an interview, telling us it will be "delivered in the most

:53:33.:53:35.

effective, compassionate way", and that they've "consulted

:53:36.:53:38.

to ensure the right exceptions We can speak now to Alison Thewliss,

:53:39.:53:40.

the SNP MP for Glasgow Central. She has been campaigning

:53:41.:53:46.

against the so-called rape clause. Rebecca Hitchen is from

:53:47.:53:50.

Rape Crisis South London. And Richard Graham is

:53:51.:53:55.

Conservative MP for Gloucester and a member of the Work

:53:56.:53:57.

and Pensions select committee. Mr Graham, do you back this? I think

:53:58.:54:09.

the response to the consultation which I've read does allow for a

:54:10.:54:14.

whole series of exceptions to the changes to child tax credit. The one

:54:15.:54:19.

on people who have been raped is incredibly sensitive,

:54:20.:54:24.

understandably. Members of my own family have been raped. So I know

:54:25.:54:31.

this. So you do back it? I back the fact that the government is allowing

:54:32.:54:36.

for rapes proved in court, but in cursive relationships in family

:54:37.:54:41.

relationships as well. The difficulty is where you effectively

:54:42.:54:44.

have a process to recognise where that has happened and it has less to

:54:45.:54:47.

the birth of a third or subsequent child. What the government is trying

:54:48.:54:53.

to do is try to find a way of doing this as sensitively as possible

:54:54.:54:56.

through health care professionals, social workers or specialist

:54:57.:54:59.

charities. And if there are other groups that others think could play

:55:00.:55:03.

an important part in this, I think the government is still open to

:55:04.:55:07.

listening. You must be talking about saving pennies, really? It's about

:55:08.:55:12.

really trying to be fair to everyone, to those who are not going

:55:13.:55:16.

to get tax credits if they have more than two children in the future and

:55:17.:55:19.

to those paying for the system as well. So it doesn't just become an

:55:20.:55:25.

easy option to say, I didn't want to have this child but my partner

:55:26.:55:30.

forced me to. It's just simply a way of finding the most sensitive way of

:55:31.:55:35.

recognising it. An easy option? What is the easy option? Tell me what you

:55:36.:55:41.

think the easy option is? I think that is the best way for Dhekelia.

:55:42.:55:45.

Otherwise you have a system where anybody might say that I was raped.

:55:46.:55:52.

Do you really believe someone would say that? I don't think it is about

:55:53.:55:58.

questioning people's will to do that. It is about just saying we

:55:59.:56:02.

have got to have a sensitive system that is fair. Allyson Felix, is this

:56:03.:56:11.

a sensitive -- sensible system? It is not sensible or fair. It is

:56:12.:56:15.

traumatising women who have already gone through considerable trauma in

:56:16.:56:20.

the first place. They will not be cross-examined, they will not be

:56:21.:56:22.

assessed, they will simply have to bring a letter from a social worker,

:56:23.:56:28.

GP or police officer? There will still have to tell that person in

:56:29.:56:32.

the first place. Say you don't have a social worker, and you feel that

:56:33.:56:36.

to do that would put you at risk, you will not tell a social worker

:56:37.:56:40.

that your husband is raping you. Rebecca Hitchen, what is your

:56:41.:56:44.

concern? I have many concerns. One of them has just been echoed. The

:56:45.:56:49.

idea that women lie about rape. That is not the case. And the reality for

:56:50.:56:53.

women of what this will mean is going to be incredibly difficult.

:56:54.:56:58.

There will be a high risk of them being traumatised again. You

:56:59.:57:02.

mentioned there will not be any assessment. From my reading their

:57:03.:57:06.

Wildie. It will be that doctors or social workers have two assessed the

:57:07.:57:10.

circumstances of the woman to determine whether they believe it is

:57:11.:57:13.

commensurate with someone who has been raped. We have heard today

:57:14.:57:20.

about personal judgments and failure of agencies that occurred time and

:57:21.:57:23.

time again. That is likely to occur in these scenarios as well. What are

:57:24.:57:33.

you going to do about this? The government as its -- it will, going

:57:34.:57:37.

to force in April. I hope there will be an opportunity to challenge it in

:57:38.:57:41.

Parliament then. The government has not done enough to speak to civil

:57:42.:57:47.

service unions. To DWP staff who have to implement this, they still

:57:48.:57:52.

don't know what they are expected to do as well, which is worrying if

:57:53.:57:55.

you're dealing with someone sensitive circumstances. We have had

:57:56.:58:00.

a number of comments from our viewers. This is appalling. I'm

:58:01.:58:05.

embarrassed by this country. Whoever came up with this insensitive ruling

:58:06.:58:10.

should be fired. I think that's slightly wrong. What the government

:58:11.:58:14.

has done is respond to people who wrote into the government's on

:58:15.:58:18.

consultation asking for ideas as to how best to implement this,

:58:19.:58:23.

recognising that it was such a sensitive area, and taking it beyond

:58:24.:58:28.

statutory rape and criminal cases, and recognising there are situations

:58:29.:58:31.

where coerces or controlling behaviour in an intimate

:58:32.:58:34.

relationship could lead to this sort of situation. I think the select

:58:35.:58:40.

committee will look at this and decided we want to take further

:58:41.:58:44.

evidence and look again the issue. I think it is a more sensitive

:58:45.:58:46.

response than people are giving it credit for. The government are not

:58:47.:58:52.

listening. They have ignored the concerns of women organisations.

:58:53.:58:57.

Thank you. Thanks for coming on the programme. We are back tomorrow. Had

:58:58.:59:00.

We know you understand the risks associated with your pregnancy.

:59:01.:59:03.

Because I'm smaller, people think my hopes are not so great.

:59:04.:59:07.