24/03/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Friday, it's 9am, I'm Joanna Gosling -

More details emerge of the man who carried out

Khalid Masood was born Adrian Russell Ajao

We'll ask how the 52-year-old was converted to radical Islam.

In the past hour, police say they've made two further significant arrests

overnight and are trawling through massive amounts

We've had contact with about 3500 witnesses, including 1000 people

from Westminster Bridge, and about 2500 who were within

An American tourist posts a picture of murdered police

officer Keith Palmer, taken less than an hour before

he died, as police name the 75-year-old man who died

from his injuries last night as Leslie Rhodes from South London.

I'm Ben Brown life at Westminster, where all the roads now have

reopened for the first time since the attack. I will have the latest

on the fast-moving police investigation into what happened

here. Hello, welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am this morning. We'll have the very latest

on the aftermath of Wednesday's terror attacks throughout

the programme this morning. One person who rushed to the aid

of victims on Westminster Bridge We'll also hear from

senior faith leaders. Plus people caught up in the terror

attacks in Nice, Paris, Berlin and Brussels tell us how

they coped afterwards. Do get in touch on all the stories

we're talking about this morning - If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate. First let's get the latest

from my colleague Ben Brown, who's In the last hour, police

investigating the attack here at Westminster have revealed that they

have made two further significant arrests overnight, so nine people

are now in custody altogether, one woman has been released, we hear, on

bail. A fourth victim, meanwhile, who died last night has been named

by the police as 75-year-old Leslie Rhodes, he was from Streatham in

south London. Scotland Yard's Acting Deputy Commissioner Mark Rowley said

the attacker, Khalid Masood, had been born Adrian Russell Ajao. With

the latest, here is Jane Francis Kelly.

This photo is thought to have been taken of PC Keith Palmer just 45

minutes before he died. The American tourist scene with him was at

Westminster prior to the attack and asked if she could pose with the

opposite. Other victims of the attack were Aysha Frade, a mother of

two. Also an American tourist, Kurt Cochran. Police have also confirmed

another man has died. Sadly last night another man died in

hospital as a result of the injury sustained during the attack. Whilst

we await formal identification, we believe that he is Leslie Rhodes,

aged 75, from Streatham in south London. My thoughts are with his

family at this time. Furthermore, two people remain in hospital in

what is described as critical condition, and one person is

considered to have life-threatening injuries.

The man responsible for the deaths was 52-year-old Khalid Masood, his

birth name Adrian Russell Ajao. He was born in Kent and most recently

lived in the West Midlands. He had a range of previous convictions

including GBH, possessing of offensive weapons, and public order

offences. His last conviction was in 2003 for possession of a knife. He

was also known under a number of aliases and was known to the

security services. Police said overnight there were two significant

arrests in the West Midlands and Northwest, nine people are in

custody, one woman has been released on bail. They appealed for

information. Anyone who knew Khalid Masood well, anyone who understands

who his associates were, anyone who can provide information about the

places he has recently visited. There might well be people out there

who did have concerns about Masood but weren't sure all didn't feel

comfortable for whatever reason in passing that information to us. I

now urge anyone with such information to callers. The attack

has reverberated across the world, but it was an attack at the heart of

British democracy. Shots show the Prime Minister being led away to

safety by her security team, the scene of uncertainty. It was still

unclear what had gone on outside the gates of Westminster. Last night the

police, politicians and faith leaders joined thousands of people

in Trafalgar Square, with the message that terrorism and fear will

not prevail. We have had more details, as you

were hearing, about the police investigation, including news that

they have made two more significant arrests as they told us this

morning. Let's get the latest

from the Metropolitan Police Headquarters at Scotland Yard

with our correspondent Yes, we had that update just under

an hour ago from Acting Deputy Commissioner Mark Rowley. He came

out and spoke just behind me here, and initially paid tribute to those

who died. He named 75-year-old Leslie Rhodes from south London, and

he gave us an update also on those in hospital, as we said two people

critical, one person still have life-threatening injuries. He also

mentioned another two police officers who had been taken to

hospital, they remain in hospital with significant injuries. He said

in total 50 people required hospital attention. Then he went on to focus

on the attacker, Khalid Masood. His birth name, Adrian Russell Ajao.

What he said is that the investigation will focus on how and

when he came to be radicalised. The words that he used, he wanted

information, they are trying to piece together this picture on his

motivation, his preparation, and also his associates. So he called

for anyone with any information, anyone who knew him at all, to come

forward and speak to police. He also mentioned the two arrests, his words

were there were two significant arrests overnight, there had

previously been eight, one woman has been released on bail. He also spoke

about the number of people who have already come forward, more than 3000

people have already come forward with witness details. He didn't go

into detail as to what they have come forward with, but he said it

was a significant amount of people who have come forward. He also

talked about security at Parliament, he said that would be reviewed,

although he made the point that Parliament is a tourist attraction,

it is open to visitors, but in light of what happened they would have to

review security there. But he very much said that London is open for

business, and he made the point that armed officers were patrolling

London at double strength at this point.

Alexandra thank you very much indeed.

Armed police have raided several properties in Birmingham in

connection to the attack here at Westminster. Let's cross to our

correspondent Kathryn Stanczyszyn, who is in Birmingham for us this

morning. We know that Birmingham is a centre

of police interest in this case, partly because the assailant hired

the beer call that he used in the attack there in Birmingham.

Yes, that is correct, and those two significant arrests that police have

updated in the last hour, one of those was made overnight here in the

West Midlands as well, one in the north-west, and seven of the arrests

yesterday were made here in the West Midlands as well. As you say, we

know that the car used on the Westminster Bridge attack was

actually hired from a rental centre around five minutes from where I am

now on Hagley Road. This is where the activity was focused first here

in Birmingham on Wednesday night, a flat behind me was raided by armed

officers. The activity then moved to a flat about five minutes away where

it is believed the attacker actually lived for some time, neighbours

shocked to recognise Khalid Masood in photographs, saying that they

believed he had been living in a house there up until around two

months ago. The car rental centre is just a short walk from there and BBC

sources have told us they believe he actually hired that car directly

himself. This has been a huge police operation, searches have spanned a

big geographical area, Sussex, London, here in the West Midlands

and in Wales as well, but of course the prevalence of the arrests made

here in Birmingham have led people to talk about whether the city has a

problem with radicalisation, some of the press describing Birmingham as a

terror hotspot this morning. Of course, the vast majority of Muslims

say this is not even in the same universe as their fate, and of

course the Birmingham Faith leaders network has put out a statement

saying, we completely reject any opportunity to blame any faith in

the city for the perverted actions of one individual, and indeed a

special unity Pigem is going to be held in Birmingham on the high

street at 5pm today, that has been organised by the Muslim engagement

network and Stand Up To Racism jointly, they say they want to pay

tribute to the victims of the attack but also show all communities in

Birmingham are standing together. Thank you very much indeed.

Last night, police said a 75-year-old man had died

It takes the number of victims to four.

In terms of casualties, police said 50 people were injured in all and

two are still in a critical condition. Let's get the latest on

those casualties. My colleague Fiona Lamdin

is at Kings College Hospital Yes, I am about three miles from

where the attack took place, you can see the police still here regarding

the hospital, very sad news came in last night that 75-year-old Leslie

Rhodes from Streatham, not far from here, died here at the hospital last

night, which takes the number of victims to ball who died following

the attacks, so we now know Leslie Rhodes, PC Keith Palmer, the police

officer who was protecting Parliament who was stabbed, Aysha

Frade, who was on her way to pick up a two children from school, and Kurt

Cochran, the US tourist who was here celebrating his 25th wedding

anniversary. The hospital told us on Wednesday afternoon, they brought

eight victims here to Kings College Hospital, we know that one is still

in a critical condition, two people were allowed home yesterday which

must have been a huge relief to their family, so this morning we

know there are five victims being treated here behind me.

The owner, thank you very much. Here at Westminster, life is

returning to normal, the roads have reopened, traffic is moving as

normal for the first time since the attack, in keeping really with the

Prime Minister's message that life here in London and in the country

has to continue as normal and that terrorism cannot be seen to win.

That is the very latest from Westminster. You are watching BBC

News. A summary now of the day's of the

news at the BBC newsroom. Bad behaviour in English schools

is not being dealt with properly and pupils' performance

is being negatively effected. That's the view of the

the Government's school In a review published today, he says

more funding and better training The report also recommends that

school inspectors pay more attention to behaviour issues, and warns

they are often glossed over The President of the European

Commission has told the BBC that the EU will not seek to punish

Britain during Brexit negotiations. Speaking on the eve of the EU's 60th

anniversary celebrations, Jean-Claude Juncker said the exit

talks will be approached fairly but warned that Britain will be held

to financial commitments made Customers should be paid automatic

compensation by their phone companies for problems

with landlines and broadband. The telecoms regulator Ofcom says

providers should pay customers for slow repairs,

delayed connections The plans could affect more

than 2.5 million customers who would receive up to ?185 million

in new compensation At the moment, compensation is only

paid to a small number of customers. That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30am. We will shortly talk to one of the

people who was first at the scene after the Westminster attack, did

not realise it was a terror attack at that stage but stepped in to help

one victim in particular who had been injured. We will also be

talking about security at Westminster, which is being looked

at in the aftermath of the attack, and we will be asking, should police

officers in the UK now be routinely armed? Get in touch with your

thoughts. An e-mail from Michael saying, I'm a retired London taxi

driver who'd used to drive in with MPs all the time through that gate.

The policemen just glanced into the back of the cap to recognise the MP

and then nodded to me to go ahead. That is not good enough, what is

needed is similar to the gates to Downing Street. How they all knew

more than 100 MPs with just a glance beats me.

And a text to say the last photo of the police officer killed is the

most the coverage of the attack, reducing me to tears, thank you to

the lady for releasing it for the family, it brings home the human

tragedy of the attack. We will have more in a few moments,

but let's catch up with the sport. The new Formula 1 season is

underway, how has Lewis Hamilton been getting on?

Is very, very impressive start the Lewis Hamilton in Australia

overnight, fastest in both sessions ahead of the Australian Grand Prix

and in second practice, these are the pictures from a lap which was a

scorcher, more than half a second faster than anyone else, potentially

knocking up to five seconds off lap times. The second quickest to

Hamilton was Sebastian Vettel in his Ferrari, who claimed would be

Mercedes' biggest rival for a fourth straight title. He said they would

be the ones to beat, which, after what happened today, seems no more

than mind games. To tell you about the other changes to the cars, they

are wider, wider back wheels as well, up to 80 centimetres wider,

which as you saw on the pictures is quite a lot in Formula 1 terms but

makes them harder to drive and certainly harder to overtake, so

while there is excitement about the speed, we hope that is matched by

the track -- on the track with all that overtaking.

What about the latest on Rory McIlroy?

Is not such a good day for him, he is out of the match play in Texas,

he only played one round this week, the second of his three opponents,

Gary Woodland, actually pulled out last night, which left Soren

Kjeldsen, who beat McIlroy on Wednesday, needing only half a point

in his match. He got a full point against Emiliano Grillo, Kjeldsen

was due to play his final group match against Gary Woodland, said

because he is guaranteed a win McIlroy cannot qualify. Tyrrell

Hatton here holing Dani from distance. Danny Willett is also out.

Just so you know, there are three games in the group stages and the

top 16 go through to the knockout rounds on Saturday and Sunday.

On Wednesday afternoon tiny singer was on a bus heading towards

Westminster Bridge just moments before the attack that brought chaos

and terror to the heart of London. The person she helped was

unconscious with serious head injuries and after ambulances

arrived she left the scene only later to discover the truth about

what had happened. Dani joins us now in the studio. Thank you for coming

in. Those are the pictures of you on the day, tell us what the first you

knew, what was the first you knew of what was happening?

We saw the car careering off the pavement. People saw the car

knocking several people over. Somebody on the bus sheltered, if

anyone had first aid training they should get off the bus and go and

help. I got off straightaway and went to the first person I saw who

looked like they won't being attended to. It was a man with quite

significant head injury and potentially other injuries we

couldn't see. At that point we didn't know that anything was going

to happen. What help did you give? The other chap who was with me

helping the don't and we were with was a medic. There wasn't a lot we

could practically do, it was just monitoring polls and breathing and

checking his airways were clear. I was just talking to him, really.

You're never aware of what people are aware of themselves. I was

telling him what was going on, describing when the ambulance were

coming, hoping some parts of him was registering our presence and that we

were there to help him. Do you know how he is? I've got no idea. As you

said, you didn't know it was a terror attack. You went off when the

ambulance arrived, when did you discover what had actually happened?

I went to wash my hands basically. I came back to the people I was with

on the bus. We had to be diverted all the way round. It was ten

minutes later when I realised from what they had said that there had

been gunshots fired, a police officer had been stabbed, then we

realised it was probably part of the same incident and it probably was a

terrorist attack of some sort. How did you feel at that point? I wanted

to get away as quickly as possible. The area was so hectic with armed

police and paramedics and sirens. I just wanted to get home as soon as

possible really. Your image was one of the images used many times on the

day. It must have been quite strange to you afterwards to realise what

you had been caught up in. It was. As soon as I got home I had people

contacting me. A friend in Hungary said his sister in Israel had seen

the picture of me and wanted to check I was OK. I had a few people

getting in touch saying they had seen that and then people phoning

saying they had seen me on the news. That was really strange, to be

someone's reference point or something. Something so big and of

this level of magnitude. There were lots of people injured, you

obviously went straight to one person and focused on helping them.

Were you able to take in much of what was going on around you and how

other people were reacting? Not really. We were aware of the people

and the longer we stayed there the more it became apparent that further

up the bridge more people have been injured. At one point I wasn't even

aware of the photographs being taken, I was just looking to

ambulances and any progress, really. How would you, could you describe

the way people work, was it people reacting calmly in dealing with the

situation? Was there chaos? I didn't feel it was chaotic. Everyone dealt

with it amazingly, especially the NHS staff at St Thomas' They came

running out. They are obviously very close, just on the other side of the

bridge. Maybe within one or two minutes, a chap came up to me and

said I'm on holiday but I'm still a doctor, what can I do? All the

civilians who helped who maybe didn't have that training, they were

just there to be doing whatever needed to be done. The police

response was incredibly quick, also. I suppose everything went smoothly

as far as the response was concerned. As a Londoner, how do you

feel? I feel affected by having been there but I don't feel affected as a

Londoner. You don't feel more vulnerable? No, this is the sort of

thing that is in the back of our minds could happen at any time. As

people are saying, London is open and we stand united. I'm certainly

not going to use this as an excuse to be more afraid of the different

communities who make up London. In fact, it solidified in me the fact

London is a diverse multicultural city and we can celebrate that

through our unity together. I'm too, Dani. Following yesterday's vigil in

Trafalgar Square we will be talking a bit later about the impact on

communities and different faiths coming together. Let's focus on

questions being raised once again about the effectiveness of security

around the Houses of Parliament. The attacker Khalid Masood was able to

get past the carriage Gates at Westminster before he was shot by

police. This is what Scotland Yard's Mark Rowley had to say about

reviewing security. I understand why tragic events such

as this generates questions about the security of Parliament. Our

current arrangements have been developed with Parliament over many

years, and are designed to provide access to the seat of our

government, balanced carefully with security that is proportionate but

not overly intrusive. Of course after an incident like this, as

would be expected, my team will work with Parliamentary authorities to

assess whether a different tone or a different balance is necessary. More

widely across the country, the police service will sustain an

enhanced armed and unarmed presence over the next few days. London and

the UK are open for business, and we're out there in greater numbers

to make sure the public see a high presence, to help reassure them as

they go about their daily lives. In London, the number of armed officers

remains at nearly double strength, whilst other parts of the UK are up

to one third more officers on duty. We can now speak to Sidney Mackay,

a former Chief Superintendent His daughter, also a Met Officer,

was killed while on duty. His son is currently

serving Met officer. Tony Long, a former

police firearms officer. Anthony Glees who directs

the Centre for Security and Intelligence Studies

at the University of Buckingham. And Philip Ingram, a former

British Army Intelligence officer who has been

following the intelligence Thank you for joining us. We were

hearing that armed officers patrolling London are at double

strength. Tony, do you think police should be routinely armed? My

personal opinion is yes. I know I'm out of sync with a lot of my former

colleagues that are still serving but I think over the years, an

increasing percentage are coming towards that viewpoint. I think if

you have a limited resource, the chances are it's not going to be in

the right place at the right time. What is your view on arming police

officers? Privately I think it's inevitable that every officer will

become armed. The growing incidence of incidents such as two days ago

will require it. In this situation it was actually a protection officer

working for the Defence Secretary who fired the bullet that stopped

the attacker. What is your view, Tony, of the level of armed police

that are around Westminster in particular? We don't know why it was

a closed protection officer, perhaps he just happened to be the person at

that moment in time that found himself closest. In my experience,

normally, there are at least two uniformed armed officers in the

vicinity of that gate or certainly in the vicinity of that yard. They

may well have been there but this particular officer happen to be

nearest. The point I would make is that this assailant, terrorist, call

him what you will, made life relatively easy for the police in

this incident. Having run over his victims on Westminster Bridge, he

made his way to probably the most heavily armed building in London. If

he had done the same at the other end of Whitehall, and driven around

Trafalgar Square running people over or god forbid up into the West End,

we wouldn't have had static police officers waiting for him. We would

have had armed response vehicles, trying to make sense of gobbled

radio messages, trying to get through gridlocked streets. They

would have had to find him before they could have put his attack to a

finish. That's the point I'm making, if you have a limited resource and

you major firearms officers to specialist, Mr Rowley has just said

that there are double the amount of armed officers on the streets,

that's fine, but it's not sustainable. Those officers will be

an overtime because there aren't enough of them to maintain that.

With that scenario that Tony Long is outlining, a complete nightmare

scenario, something that would be much harder to handle, what are your

thoughts on the best way to protect people on the streets? The best way

to protect people and the best way to protect Parliament is actually to

protect it. What we saw two days ago was a lack of protection. I'm very

disturbed by the kind of complacent attitude, I'm afraid. I know, it's

been a terrible tragedy and people are traumatised by it,

understandably. But the fact is, both in immediate terms and in wider

terms, this was a failure of security policy. People may have

seen the pictures I've just seen on Twitter a few moments ago of Mrs May

being taken at great speed, in an extreme condition of chaos, Act of

Parliament. This was somebody who got within 100 metres of whether

Prime Minister was. If it had an explosive vest, you and I would be

having a very different conversation. When Mr Rowley says,

we've been planning this for a long time, it was proportionate, etc. It

wasn't proportionate at all. A very brave police officer confronted a

crazed Islamist attacker, without a weapon. This is lack of planning. I

think we become complacent in this country. Nobody wants to see armed

police, but that is the only response, particularly in

Westminster. The more we know about the perpetrator, the terrorist, the

more questions will be asked why this man slipped off the radar of

MI5. We've got a security service, we know there are 3000 people in

this country that want to do us harm, they should jolly well have

their collars felt. You are shaking your head at what was being said

there. I think it's been grossly unfair in misrepresenting what was

going on. I was in Westminster not long after the incident happened.

The police and emergency service response was phenomenally quick.

There's a balance between having complete security. If you do that,

everywhere is on all time, every member of the police is armed,

you've got soldiers on the street and that's a totalitarian state. We

are not, we are a free liberal democracy and we have to let people

go about their normal lives without oppressive security oppressive

security. Security starts with an outer ring of intelligence. It's

very difficult when you're looking at lone wolf attacks, which this

seems to have been, to pick up the intelligence that would indicate it.

Especially when some of the attackers that carry out these sort

of events go from zero to being crude boot recruited to jihad within

48 hours. Australian police last year stopped 216-year-olds from

carrying out attacks, they made an assessment that they had been

recruited to jihad within 48 hours. That's virtually impossible for any

security organisation to be able to keep on top. I agree with the

speakers in saying that I think now is time when our police forces,

certainly in our major cities and areas where there's concentrations

of people, should be routinely armed.

You are all of the consensus that it is time to routinely armed police...

There will be an awful lot of criticism and already has been in

terms of how he got as far as he did. It is worth bearing in mind

that in 1979, in the middle of a concerted Irish terrorism campaign,

a car bomb was detonated under a vehicle by the IRA within yards of

where the officer was killed the other day going into the underground

car park. But despite that between 1979 and the Twin towers going down

in 2001 Parliament consistently refused to have any armed police

officers within the Palace of Westminster. There is a tradition,

and quite understandably so around that building, the Sergeant at Arms

basically has to say yes or no to all of the security there and I

guarantee if the gates were shut the first person to complain about it,

probably because they would could not ride their bicycles through it,

would be a member of Parliament or cabinet member, so the unarmed

uniformed officers that are effectively meters and greeters and

pass checkers know that community well and they are on first name

terms with the MPs and everything else, and I think that that inspires

a lack of security in many ways, but most people seem to be in agreement,

if you are going to have officers there, this perception that because

they are carrying a gun changes the way they do policing, is, I'm

afraid, delusional. I carry guns over tea and covertly, I have been

there and communicated with the public, given them directions and

acted like an ordinary police officer as I was for the whole of my

service. Having a gun on your hip does not stop... Elsewhere in the

world it is almost insulting to suggest that the Dutch police or

French police or Swiss police don't have community policing, that their

officers are not approachable simply because they have a gun. It is a

fallacy that has been allowed to perpetuate to such an extent that

serving officers think that is what would happen if they had to carry a

gun, and it is simply not true. Olivier having on to say, should all

officers be armed, no, but more should. I'm a police officer,

British police haven't recruited officers with firearms in mind, then

he would not want to carry all not have the skills or aptitude, but all

officers should be offered the chance to carry a weapon and if they

have -- if they pass the rigorous selection and training they should

carry, this occurred in the most heavily policed area in the country,

if it happened in other areas it could take 45 minutes for armed

police to arrive. What is your view on whether there

would be an appetite for the police to be armed? I have to agree with

Tony, there has been a recent poll by the Met Police Federation on

firearms and Taser 's within the federation membership, and I think

they were all in favour of Tasers but rejected considerably not to

carry firearms. I think it is a mystique that has been built up over

the years not just by police but by the public as well, the perception

of the public, that we've always traditionally had a unarmed police,

and this is a gold standard of some sort. I don't deny that and I

recognise it, but there is a mindset for the moment not to carry firearms

but I think, as I said initially, that it will be inevitable that

officers will personally realise that they must go along that path.

It might not be tomorrow, but I think it will be sometime in the not

too distant future. It will have huge resource implications for the

UK police service as a whole, both in training and getting officers to

volunteer under present circumstances to carry a weapon.

Thank you all very much for joining us, and if you have any more

comments they are always welcome, the usual ways of getting in touch.

Following yesterday's vigil in Trafalgar Square,

I'll talk to religious leaders from various fates about what role

religion can play in the aftermath of a terrorist attack.

And we'll look at the global fight against so-called Islamic State

and whether we're likely to see more terror attacks in the west.

Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

A fourth victim who died last night after being knocked down

in the Westminster attack has been named by police as 75-year-old

Leslie Rhodes from Streatham, in South London.

Two people remain in hospital in a critical condition.

Two police officers hurt in the attack are also in hospital

In a statement this morning, police investigating the attack have

revealed that they've made two further significant

Nine people are now in custody, one woman has been released on bail.

Police have also revealed the attacker, Khalid Masood, was born

The police have appealed for information from anyone

Bad behaviour in English schools is not being dealt with properly

and pupils' performance is being negatively effected.

That's the view of the the Government's school

In a review published today, he says more funding

and better training are needed to tackle the issue.

The report also recommends that school inspectors pay more attention

to behaviour issues, and warns they are often

glossed over when schools produce good results.

The President of the European Commission has told the BBC

that the EU will not seek to punish Britain during Brexit negotiations.

Speaking on the eve of the EU's 60th anniversary celebrations,

Jean-Claude Juncker said the exit talks will be approached fairly

but warned that Britain will be held to financial commitments made

Customers should be paid automatic compensation by their phone

companies for problems with landlines and broadband.

The telecoms regulator Ofcom says providers should pay

customers for slow repairs, delayed connections

The plans could affect more than 2.5 million customers

who would receive up to ?185 million in new compensation

At the moment, compensation is only paid to a small number of customers.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10am.

Lewis Hamilton called his first day of the new Formula One season "99%

perfect" after finishing fastest in both practice sessions

He was more than half a second quicker than the rest

in the second session and that, in Formula One,

particularly with the new faster cars, is a lot.

That lap allowed him to finish ahead of Ferrari's Sebastian Vettel

and new Mercedes teammate Valteri Bottas in Melbourne.

Soren Kjeldsen's win at the WGC Match Play golf sends

And the world number two didn't even play after his opponent withdrew.

As a result Kjeldsen needed just a half to prevent McIlroy

British Swimming is conducting an investigation after multiple

bullying claims were made by Paralympians about a coach.

BBC Sport has learned the complainants include

And David Haye has been called before boxing authorities

to explain his comments in the build-up to his heavyweight

Haye had graphically described the injuries that he hoped

Last night a candlelit vigil was held in Trafalgar Square

to remember those that lost their lives and that

These are the words from London's mayor.

London is a city with people from all sorts of backgrounds. When

London faces diversity, we all pull together. We stand up for our

values, and we show the world we are the greatest city in the world.

Let's speak now to the Archdeacon of London, Luke Miller.

The Rabbi Dr Jonathan Roman, who has edited a book called Terror,

Trauma And Tragedy, on how communities should respond

And Imam Yunus Dudhwala, who is the Head of Chaplaincy

and Bereavement Services to Barts Health NHS Trust.

Thank you all for coming in, Father Luke Millar, you were at the vigil,

tell us what it was like. It was an extraordinary experience to have the

privilege of looking across so many people who had come to show that

London stands together, that we are unified in the face of this kind of

attack and determined we will not be terrorised out of normal behaviour,

that we shall carry on in all our extraordinary multifarious

diversity. Imam Yunus Dudhwala, what is your view of faith leaders at a

time like this? We have a very important role to play to try to

bring communities together, especially in communities that are

very diverse. We have mosques, churches, synagogues, temples, we

have communities, we have people from different religious

backgrounds, so it is a time for us to mind ourselves as leaders and

lead from the front to make sure people understand our values are

very similar, our backgrounds are similar in terms of humanity, and

the need to respect each other and tolerance, but faith leaders have a

very important role. What is the evidence you have seen about how

people are responding? I live in London and looking at how people

have been going about their normal business, the vigil that was held at

Trafalgar Square last night, there were many other vigils in Tower

Hamlets, Leeds, Manchester, other places as well, so I think

communities realise that one person does not represent the whole

community and it is about our human values. Rabbi Jonathan Roman, would

you have concerns about division in the aftermath of something like

this? No, the fact there are three -- the Christian, a Jew and Muslim

sitting together, after the last attack, I said a prayer in Hebrew,

an imam came and said a prayer in Arabic. Something like that would

not have happened if there had not been an attack like that? Yes,

although to be honest it was built on years and years of coming

together and although, yes, we are now talking about it, actually the

interfaith dialogue has been going on for decades, probably 50 or 60

years, and it is that slow local individual work that has been

building up which allows us to be on first name terms and know about each

other's theology. The only problem about last night was a pop-up

community and I think this is where religious buildings and institutions

school because people do need their candlelight, their songs, their

camaraderie, but what happens next week? That community in Trafalgar

Square has gone but the synagogue, the mosque, the church will be open

week after week so people who have the need to disperse -- to express

their dismay, anger, for solidarity, they have a place to go week after

week. What you talk about, the slow building of relations in communities

obviously sounds absolutely ideal and like a good place to be. Luke,

how do you see that actually in operation? In London I think we have

a very deep sense of the work that goes on in that way locally all the

time, it was one of those things that bubbles from the bottom up,

people know one another because they share the same streets and shops, we

work together in all sorts of places, schools and across all

workplaces. We see, therefore, as Jonathan says, we see this bubbling

up from the bottom all the time. I think one of the main pieces of work

that we have going on is precisely this response to major attacks and

other things that can happen, whether it be a flood or a fire,

where the faith communities have a well worked out system for working

together. What I'm hearing from all of you is a very positive message

about when it goes right but clearly there are incidents of division of

people who are not pulling together, and hatred being fuelled. To be

honest, there are lunatics out there, not just religious lunatics

but political lunatics, animal-rights lunatics, it is human

nature, not religion, and by and large religion is there as a force

for good. And again, thinking about what happened yesterday, there was

one terrorist but hundreds of people who stopped to rescue, comfort, give

medical aid, thousands upon thousands now giving money, and we

underestimate that most people are good, decent, friendly. Brendan Cox

make the point that just because a Yorkshireman committed a murder it

does not make all Yorkshiremen murderers. On that, Yunus, how

important is the language, because Theresa May said yesterday it was

wrong to describe the attack as Islamic terrorism, she said it was

Islamist, a perversion of the great debate. I personally think Islamist

is also a perversion, because if you bring Islam into it, even as

Islamist, I think that is a problem in itself. How would you describe

it? For me, it is a lot to do with politics, it is a lot to do with the

Middle East, it is a lot to do with power structures within the Middle

East, and then the connection that the international players try to

find within this community of hours to say, look, I connection with you

and I is Islam, and they use is lamb as the catch. Yes, if land is used

as a cat but in reality there are lots of different issues -- Islam.

Are you concerned that bringing the term Islam is divisive? Yes, it is

part of the problem, but not the whole problem. This individual might

have been a Muslim but there are lots of issues going on. I think one

of the biggest issues that we have to try to bring the communities

together is the outcast routes, people live on the same streets but

don't talk to each other, people go to the shops but don't talk to the

person in front of them. People have taken Islam from the media or from

what they see or they breed and it gives that message. I would urge

people to talk to each other, Muslims talking to Christians,

Christians talking to Jews. It has to happen at grassroots. I have been

invited, before this incident, to speak to some rabbis next week in an

mosque, and that is how it is going to happen, communities need to open

their doors and we need to speak to each other. In the 60s and 70s doors

were open, everyone knew each other. Today we are very individualistic

and therefore people just ignore each other, they take the news all

the information from the media and it can be skewed.

The coming together you are talking about is very much faith -based. But

not everybody out there has faith and is involved in communities like

that. And actually they live in communities where people don't

intersect with each other. If there's one thing that people do as

a result of what happened at Westminster, it is that if you have

a neighbour or someone in your street of a different race, colour,

ethnic group of faith, or in the office at work, who you nod to but

don't know, say, come round for a cup of tea. Do you think people

would do that these days? People think, what can we do. Is a

practical example. Spend 15 minutes with someone, get to know them and

find out how they are different but how they worry about the same

things, education, mortgage, and see the commonality underneath. Going

back to your earlier point about words, I wouldn't want to describe

the chap yesterday as Islamist, call him a criminal, call him a murderer,

and put him on a par with all the other people who do atrocious

things. Absolutely. Just going back to... Ask people why they dress

differently, ask about their cultures, don't just as Schumann.

Sometimes we see somebody on the street and just because it's written

this person used to dress in black, or they used to dress in white

robes. -- don't just assume. That brings suspicion. What if he was a

gardener, what if he was a coffee shop owner? Are all copy shop owners

or gardeners now guilty? Language is really important, we need to be

careful with language. What are your thoughts? I think the atomisation of

society are something we stand against as religious people. The

message of most religions is about people coming together. Just talking

to our neighbours, engaging with the person in the shop. We go to the

machine, the card pins and we walk away without engaging with anybody.

Finding all those opportunities, in the workplace, wherever we are

during the day, how we are engaging with the people with whom we live

and with whom we share our society. And finding those opportunities to

reach out to them, rather than just being in an atomised world. I think

the other thing is that if we are clear about what we believe and

think ourselves, we more easily reach out to someone who is

different. What we have tended to do in our discussion about inclusivity,

is to ask for a kind of anodyne uniformity, that then sees

difference as something of which to be afraid. That kind of unity isn't

unity at all. It's a way of expressing atomisation and of

increasing fear. Whereas if we are able in all of our wonderful

difference, to express that clearly, and then from that to be able to

reach out to others, it seems to me we can form a stronger and more

effective society. And at the same time rescue got from the terrorists.

There's no doubt religion has been hijacked by these lunatics and we

can say actually... That's been going on forever. We had Protestant

and Catholic terrorists and all that sort of thing. Thank you for joining

us. Let us know your thoughts. We'll be talking in a few moments about

how to actually tackle IS. Let's bring you some breaking news we are

hearing out of Egypt. We hear the former President Hosni Mubarak has

walked free for the first time in six years. He has been released from

jail. There is an image of him. He is out of prison for the first time

in six years. We will bring you more on that as we have it.

Coming up, we look at the threat of home-grown terror,

and what the government is doing to stop UK citizens

We can bring you some comments on arming the police following on from

the earlier conversation we had about security issues arising from

the terror attack. One viewer says, I think all police should receive

firearms training but I don't think they should be routinely armed.

Another viewer says, people need to step back, we don't need armed

police on our streets, let's not forget the attack failed. Another

tweet, guns, tasered, buttons, give the police something. Another Tweet,

the world is changing, the threat is changing, for the safety of police

and public they all have to be armed. A tweet, armed police should

have been around the gate to cover the backs of the an armed police.

Imagine if the terrorist had a gun. Please keep your comments coming in.

The so-called Islamic State yesterday claimed it was behind

the attack in London which resulted in the death of three people

Over the last 18 months IS has claimed responsibility for several

atrocities in Europe, including shootings

But the Islamist group has suffered heavy losses in Syria,

and in Iraq is facing defeat in its last stronghold in Mosul.

Does that mean future attacks in the West are less likely?

Joining me now is Dr Natasha Underhill from

Nottingham Trent University and Charlie Winter from

the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation

and Political Violence at King's College London.

Thank you for joining us. IS has claimed Khalid Masood as one of its

soldiers and said this is an act of IS. Natasha, what are your thoughts

on whether this was effectively a lone wolf or whether, as IS claims,

it had some level of involvement? I would be more inclined to assume

this was a lone wolf, that this person had become almost self

radicalised. What IS are actually doing is capitalising on the

publicity. All terrorist organisations want a theatre and

this is a global news story. Essentially they are just

capitalising on the fact that this is getting their name out there,

because of the losses they have been suffering, they need something to

promote themselves again. This is the perfect example of that.

Charlie, do you doubt that IS was directly involved? Security services

look at three options whether IS could have actively directed

something, enabled it or inspired it. Based on the information that we

have in front of us now, based on everything that Islamic State has

said over the course of the last 36 hours, there's nothing to indicate

it had an instructive role in the operation. The way it's framed its

messaging sense and all of its propaganda regarding everything

else, the way it's talking or not talking about London, is really

significant. You can read into that based on what happened in the past.

All of the indication is that this was an attack it's trying to framer

something it inspired rather than it directed. If it had directed it, it

would be going to town on showing it did. Martyrdom videos frequently

emerge, don't they? They do, there is a slim chance that Khalid Masood

could have filmed himself pledging allegiance to the leader of Islamic

State and sent it out and there could be a video that will show

that. But until that happens, I don't think we should think about it

as if it's a reality already. Worthy organisation to try and claim this

operation as something it directed, the whole propaganda response would

have been very different -- were the organisation to try and claim this

operation. We talked about the impact on the ground on IS's

capabilities, is translating to IS's power being reduced in terms of the

operations that can be carried out, away from Syria and Iraqi? There's

definitely a relationship between what happens in Syria and Iraq and

the rest of the world. But I would be a bit cautious about drawing to

linear a connection between the two. Definitely the case is that, as the

Islamic State loses Mosul and its territories in Syria crumble, that's

not even to mention Libya, it really does need this kind of attack, it

needs to derive momentum from somewhere in order to keep its

current supporters interested, to maintain a sense of legitimacy,

credibility, relevance. So this kind of attack and the propaganda that

follows it, the impact, is so important for Islamic State now. If

we understand all of these atrocities through that lens, I

think it really helps to allow us to point towards its strategic logic.

How would you describe the strategic logic of IS, Natasha? And what its

capabilities are? At the moment I think we are slightly over

estimating the group. I think in a way we are giving them too much

credit for what they can achieve. Yes, they've taken territory, yes

they been able to contain and control. What we need to do is

capitalise on their losses. We have to remember they are built on an

ideology whether caliphate is key. They were able to establish that but

now they are losing that territory again. What we need to do is make

sure we aren't just challenging then militarily but also targeting that

ideology. Discredit their idea of the caliphate, discredit them in

terms of their successes and capitalise on that. I think we need

to think clearly about countering not just the organisation itself,

but also its ideology. This is the most dangerous thing for us here in

the West. Charlie, a fundamental aspect of the way it operates is

online. Absolutely. And through propaganda that it disseminates

online. What we've seen over the last few days is a utter

transformation in how it uses the inter-net. Things like Twitter,

Facebook, they are still important, but it's inhospitable for Islamic

State supporters. We've seen a retreat into darker parts of the

inter-net which are more difficult to access, which is good in the

grand scheme of things but it means in terms of getting propaganda out

there it's a lot more difficult. Of course that makes it more difficult

to monitor for the intelligence services because a lot of these

channels are encrypted or secret and that's another level of difficulty.

In the broadest terms, the fact is its propaganda is no longer as easy

to access on the inter-as it once was. We have to commend everyone

involved in making that situation happen. -- the inter-net. Coming up.

Coming up, coping with the aftermath of a terror attack.

I'll hear from some people who witnessed horrific events

Good morning. Contrasting weather conditions across the UK at the

moment. This is the scene for many of you, a lovely shot there. We've

got blue skies overhead. It's a different story across some southern

parts of England and the North of Scotland. Cloudy conditions much

like this one. That's under this sheet of clouds. There are two areas

of cloud, this is high cloud, the most it's sunny conditions through

the central area of the UK. This cloud is producing outbreaks of rain

across Somerset, Devon and Cornwall. Pretty cold in the South banks to

the wind. Things will brighten up here. Rain through parts of northern

Scotland this morning but something a bit brighter into the afternoon.

The vast majority of the UK, it's a sunny Friday and very pleasant too

with light winds. But high pressure is in charge for the central suede

and where the winds are lightest, will seize on mist and fog form. --

the central area where the winds are lightest. Conditions are colder than

last night. We're into the weekend on a pretty chilly start. High

pressure is their right across us. On the outskirts we've got breezy

conditions in northern Scotland. A brighter day in the south but still

pretty blustery, weather winds are lightest and for most of you, it

will be a sunny day. Even sunnier across the South than today.

Temperatures will lift up quite nicely. If you are along some of

these eastern coasts it's a different story. Strong winds coming

off a chilly North Sea. You'll still have the same strong sunshine

overhead. That's because high pressure remains with us. It's there

into Saturday night. Just a bit further north, the focus for some

mist and fog and coldest conditions will be Scotland, Northern Ireland

and northern England. Most. Mothering Sunday on a dry and sunny

note. Quite chilly across eastern areas. We could get around 16 or 17

Celsius. Warmest conditions perhaps in the highlands of Scotland. On

Sunday, that clock change is coming and we are going to British

summertime. Good news for those working the night shift, not so much

for those who don't want to get up early. At least the evenings will be

brighter. Hello, I'm Joanna Gosling,

welcome to the show. More details emerge

of the man who carried out Khalid Masood was previously known

as Adrian Russell Ajao A woman who rushed to help one

of the victims on Westminster bridge I was just talking to him, really,

he was unconscious but you never know what people are aware of

themselves so I was talking to him, telling him what was going on,

describing when the ambulances were coming and hoping some part of him

was registering our present and that we were there to help him.

An American tourist posts a picture of murdered police

officer Keith Palmer before he died, as the 75-year-old man

who died from his injuries last night is named as Leslie Rhodes

Police say they have made two most significant arrests overnight and

are trawling through massive amounts of computer data. They urge the

public to help them. We have had contact with 3500 witnesses,

including 1000 people from Westminster Bridge and about 2500

within the Parliamentary estate. I'm Ben Brown live at Westminster

where the roads have reopened for the first time since the attack. I

will bring you the latest on the fast-moving police investigation

into what happened here. Hello, welcome to the programme, we

are live until 11am. One e-mail, we must protect the

protectors. In this day and age, police are like soldiers on our

street and they need armour like the Knights of old. They are here rose

and the threat of anyone, any time needs to be addressed properly.

Another e-mail, the police should carry Tasers in places like

Parliament. If PC Palmer had been armed with one, he may still be

alive. An e-mail from Val, I would feel

reassured seeing police armed on the streets. We have to wake up and

realise this is the world we are now living in.

Thank you for those comments, you are always welcome to get in touch

with us throughout the programme. Texts will be charged at the

standard network rate. Let's get the latest from Ben Brown now in

Westminster. Good morning, Joanna. Westminster

seems to be back to normal this morning, the roads around here open

border first time since the attack. Police investigating the attack

on Westminster have revealed that they've made two further

"significant" arrests overnight. Nine people are now in custody,

one woman has been released on bail. A fourth victim who died last night

has been named by police as 75-year-old Leslie Rhodes

from Streatham, in South London. Scotland Yard's Acting

Deputy Commissioner, Mark Rowley, said the attacker,

Khalid Masood, had been born First, for the latest

on the investigation, This photo is thought to have been

taken of PC Keith Palmer just 45 The American tourist seen with him

was at Westminster prior to the attack and asked

if she could pose with the opposite. Other victims of the attack

were Aysha Frade, a mother of two. Also an American

tourist, Kurt Cochran. Police have also confirmed that

another man has died. Whilst we await formal

identification, we believe that he is Leslie Rhodes,

aged 75, from Streatham My thoughts are with his

family at this time. Furthermore, two people remain

in hospital in what is described as critical condition,

and one person is considered to have The man responsible for the deaths

was 52-year-old Khalid Masood, he was previously known

as Adrian Russell Ajao. He was born in Kent and most

recently lived in the West Midlands. He had a range of previous

convictions including GBH, possession of offensive weapons,

and public order offences. His last conviction was in 2003

for possession of a knife. He was also known under a number

of aliases, and he was known Police said overnight

there were two significant arrests Nine people are in custody,

one woman has been released on bail. Live searches are continuing. 2700

items have been seized, including computer data. Police are appealing

to the public for information as they try to piece together whether

Masood acted alone or as part of a wider network.

Anyone who knew Khalid Masood well, anyone who understands

who his associates were, anyone who can provide

information about the places he's recently visited.

There might well be people out there who did have concerns

about Masood but weren't sure or didn't feel comfortable

for whatever reasons in passing that information to us.

I now urge anyone with such information to call us.

The attack has reverberated across the world, but it was an attack

Shots show the Prime Minister being led away to safety

by her security team, a scene of uncertainty.

It was still unclear what had gone on outside the gates of Westminster.

Last night the police, politicians and faith leaders

joined thousands of people in Trafalgar Square,

with the message that terrorism and fear will not prevail.

A lot more detail emerging this morning about the police

investigation. Let's get the latest

from the Metropolitan Police Headquarters at Scotland Yard

with our correspondent Yes, first we got more details about

those who were injured in this attack, police now saying 50 people

injured and of those being treated in hospital they said two are still

considered to be in critical condition and one person considered

to have life-threatening injuries. Two police officers remain in

hospital with what are described as very significant injuries. Police

said that those affected are from a cross-section of different ages and

from at least 12 different nationalities, and we heard there in

that report also new information about aliases used by the attacker,

Khalid Masood. We have also heard more about the scope of this

inquiries, police say it is an investigation involving hundreds of

officers from across the counter terrorism network, they describe it

as a very large, fast-paced investigation, focusing on Masood's

possible motivation, preparation, potential associates. Police say

they are determined to find out if he acted totally alone, if he was

inspired by terrorist propaganda, if others had encouraged, supported or

directed him. They said there have now been searches at five addresses

ongoing, 16 searches concluded. They also say they have had contact with

around 3500 witnesses, these are witnesses either from Westminster

Bridge or the Parliamentary estate, and also an update on security,

police saying there is now an enhanced armed police presence in

London, they say the number of armed officers remains near double

strength and in other parts of the UK up to one third more armed

officers on duty. OK, Daniel, thank you very much

indeed, Daniel Boettcher there for us at New Scotland Yard.

Armed police have raided several properties in Birmingham

Our correspondent Kathryn Stanczyszyn

Two significant arrests that police have updated in the last hour,

one of those was made overnight here in the West Midlands,

one in the north-west, and seven of the arrests yesterday

were made here in the West Midlands, too.

As you say, we know the car that was used on that

Westminster Bridge attack was actually hired from a rental

centre around five minutes away from where I am now on Hagley Road.

This was where the activity was focused first here

in Birmingham on Wednesday night, a flat behind me was

The activity then moved to a house about five minutes

away, where it's believed that the attacker actually

Neighbours shocked to recognise Khalid Masood in photographs,

saying that they believed he'd been living in a house there up

And the car rental centre was just a short walk from there,

and BBC sources have told us that they believe he actually hired

Now, this has been a huge police operation.

Of course searches have spanned a big geographical area -

Sussex, London, here in the West Midlands

But of course the prevalence of the arrests made here

in Birmingham have led people to talk about whether the city has

Some of the press describing Birmingham as a terror

Of course the vast majority of Muslims say this attack is not

even in the same universe as their faith.

And, indeed, the Birmingham Faith Leaders' Network has put out

a statement saying, "We completely reject any attempt to see

an opportunity to blame any particular community or faith

in this city for the perverted actions of one individual."

And, indeed, a special unity vigil is going to be held

in Birmingham on the high street at 5pm today.

That's been organised by the Muslim Engagement Network

They say they want to pay tribute to the victims of this attack

but also show that all communities in Birmingham are standing together.

Kathryn Stanczyszyn reporting there from Birmingham.

Last night, police said a 75-year-old man had died

He has been named as Leslie Rhodes from Streatham in south London,

taking the number of fatalities to four. More than 30 victims are being

treated in various London hospitals, two people said to be critically

ill. My colleague Fiona Lamdin

was at King's College Hospital I'm about three miles

from where the attack took place You can see the police

still very much here, The very sad news that came in last

night that 75-year-old Leslie Rhodes from Streatham,

not far from here, died here at the hospital last night,

which takes the number of victims to four who died

following the attacks. So we now know Leslie Rhodes,

we know PC Keith Palmer, the police officer who was protecting

Parliament, who was stabbed. Aysha Frade, who was on her way

to pick her two children up from school, and Kurt Cochran,

the US tourist who was here celebrating his 25th

wedding anniversary. Now, the hospital told us

on Wednesday afternoon they brought We now know one is still in a very

critical condition. Two people were allowed home

yesterday, must have been a huge relief to their family,

and so this morning we know there are still five victims

being treated here behind me. Fiona Lamdin reporting. Here at

Westminster the roads have reopened, live starting to return to normal,

the tube station, Westminster Tube has reopened as well, but the police

investigation gathering momentum and at the heart of it police trying to

find out was this man, Khalid Masood, a lone wolf or did he have a

composite? That is the latest from Westminster. -- did he have an

accomplice. Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news. The former president of Egypt, Hosni

Mubarak, who was overthrown in 2011, has been released from a military

hospital. He was serving six years for the treatment of protest is but

he has been cleared of charges and has now left the military hospital

where he was serving his sentence. Bad behaviour in English schools

is not being dealt with properly and pupils' performance

is being negatively effected. That's the view of

the the Government's school behaviour expert,

Tom Bennett. In a review published today,

he says more funding and better training are needed

to tackle the issue. The report also recommends that

school inspectors pay more attention to behaviour issues,

and warns they are often glossed over when schools

produce good results. The President of the European

Commission has told the BBC that the EU will not seek to punish

Britain during Brexit negotiations. Speaking on the eve of the EU's 60th

anniversary celebrations, Jean-Claude Juncker said the exit

talks will be approached fairly but warned that Britain will be held

to financial commitments made Customers should be paid automatic

compensation by their phone companies for problems

with landlines and broadband. The telecoms regulator Ofcom says

providers should pay customers for slow repairs,

delayed connections The plans could affect more

than 2.5 million customers who would receive up to ?185 million

in new compensation At the moment, compensation is only

paid to a small number of customers. That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am. Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning, in particular, lots of you getting

in touch on whether police should be routinely armed in the wake of the

terror attack in London. If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate. It's been an impressive start

to the new Formula One season for Lewis Hamilton as he goes

for a fourth world title. He was fastest in both practice

sessions today ahead And in second practice

he was more than half a second faster than anyone,

with the new cars for the 2017 season potentially knocking up

to five seconds off lap times. Second quickest was Sebastian Vettel

in his Ferrari, who Hamilton claimed would be his Mercedes team's biggest

rivals this season. Hamilton called his opening 99%

perfect. Rory McIlroy is out of the WGC

Match Play golf, having The second of his three opponents

in the round robin group stage of the tournament in Texas,

Gary Woodland, pulled out, leaving Denmark's Soren Kjeldsen -

who beat McIlroy on Wednesday - needing only a half

a point in his match against Argentine Emiliano Grillo

to eliminate the Northern Irishman. Kjeldsen was due to play his final

group match against Woodland, so since he's guaranteed a win,

McIlroy can't qualify. England's Tyrrell Hatton

and Paul Casey won to But Masters champion

Danny Willett is out. British Swimming is conducting

an investigation after multiple bullying claims were made

by Paralympians about a coach. BBC Sport has learned

the complainants include Wales manager Chris Coleman

insists their crucial World Cup qualifier against the Republic

of Ireland tonight is not a must-win game, but admits there's

a "desperation" in the squad Ireland are top of group D

after four matches unbeaten, with Wales, having only won one

of their qualifiers so far, You get halfway and see where you

are in the campaign. You fighting at the wrong end or at the right end?

All this pressure on us is what we've always wanted. I wish it, I've

dreamt about it. To be halfway in the campaign and still have a say in

who finishes top, who comes second. More details have emerged

about Khalid Masood, the 52-year-old man who drove a car

into pedestrians on Westminster Bridge on Wednesday before fatally

stabbing a policeman guarding He was not an immigrant,

he was previously known as Adrian Russell Ajao and lived

in Dartford in Kent He grew up with his mum in Rye

in East Sussex and there are reports of a conviction in Eastbourne

in a local paper as late as 2003, At some point after 2003,

he changed religion and adopted He is also believed to have lived

in Luton and east London, and most recently in the West

Midlands. The Sun newspaper claims he spent

some time in Saudi Arabia as an English language teacher,

but the BBC has been He was known to police

and M15 and had convictions for assaults including GBH,

possession of offensive weapons He'd also spent time in prison,

but not recently and not So-called Islamic State have claimed

responsibility for the attack. So how does some living on British

soil become radicalised and are the UK Government's

strategies to stop people carrying Let's speak now to Rashad Ali,

a Senior fellow at the institute for Strategic Dialogue,

which is a Counter Extremism Think Sara Khan, co-founder

of the counter-extremism Dr Brooke Rogers, a Senior lecturer

in Risk and Terror in the Department of War Studies at King's College

London. She's a social psychologist

specializing in the psychology of radicalization and the impact

of terrorism and currently researching Lone Actor

Extremist Events. Ali Milani, who is President of the

Brunel University Students Union. And joining us from Salford

we have Rizwaan Sabir, a Lecturer of Criminology

at Liverpool John Moores University, a was himself arrested

under anti-terror law. Thank you for joining us. What is

your perspective on whether the government is doing the right thing

on trying to stop radicalisation? We are talking about somebody who was

born here, not born a Muslim and at some stage in his life he became

radicalised. I think the case is a good illustration of the limitations

of what any government can do. Essentially, thankfully, we don't

live in a totalitarian state, which means we aren't monitoring every

individual. We aren't gathering intelligence on everyone and keeping

it. So therefore, there is no way you can stop an individual from

getting into a car and committing something like this. It's one of the

prices we pay for living in a liberal democracy. Having said that,

there are big debates around radicalisation that are probably

pertinent to understanding how we can tackle this. And what the actual

cause is, and how does an individual get involved in this. Because I

think it's easy to talk about counter extremism and prevention.

But really, when it comes down to the individual level, it's often

very difficult to be able to treat individuals who are being

radicalised, for a number of reasons. The government does have an

approach to this which is the channel programme, which has reached

out to several thousand individuals that have gone through this. Three

quarters allegedly from Islamist backgrounds and around 25% who are

considered to be far right terrorists. There is a spectrum of

individuals on the programme which the government is trying to do. I

think the bigger problem is civil society. Which is what we can do to

tackle this. What can we do to help as a community and society to stop

the process of radicalisation within different parts of our society, stop

the polarisation. We chat individuals we know of and provide

support. In that regard there are lots of activities that are

happening, but there's a huge gap in terms of what the extremists are

doing, what they are Priscilla tithing and how they are active

online. If you look at Britain First, they've got it enormous

following on Facebook. Our response frankly has been, let's just say,

not as effective, not as impactful or resourceful. What do you think

are the most effective ways of stopping someone being radicalised?

We know there isn't a single profile. Khalid Masood was a

52-year-old man, that has caused shock among many young people

because the assumption is its young people. There is no single profile.

It's really important to recognise that it's a multi pronged approach.

There is no one solution. There is no one answer, there has to be a

multi pronged approach and engaged with all sections of society. I

believe schools have a huge role to play in terms of building

resilience, teaching young people critical thinking skills so they

don't buy into online propaganda that we see available online, or in

communities. Faith institutions have a very important role to play in

teaching theological counter narratives to extremist ideology.

Khalid Masood, there were concerns around him holding extreme views. I

agree that the role of civil society is really critical. We need to be

engaging with the police, we need to be reporting people if we have

concerns to the Anti-Terrorist Hotline. I feel there is a gap where

we recognise that we need to effectively counter the speech, come

to the arguments, challenge those within our society who are promoting

extremist views, because we know for a fact there are. I think it's

really important we don't underestimate the reality. We know

that MI5 in the past have said they are monitoring 3000 violent British

Islamist extremists wanting to cause harm to our country. We know that

there have been hundreds who have travelled to Syria to join jihadists

organisations. We know there have been around 269 people convicted for

Islamist terrorism offences. There's clearly a problem. It requires a

multi pronged response from all sections of society, government,

police, education and civil society. Are we getting better at stopping

radicalisation in this country? This has been an ongoing debate and there

are programmes in place, the Prevent programme, to try to do that. I

think we are improving in respect of understanding the variety of ways in

which we can intervene. If you think about Prevent, it's been very

difficult to actually measure that in terms of establishing clear

indicators of success. They did have a national indicator that they

removed because it was so difficult to actually measure the success of

Prevent programmes. When you look at the work being undertaken on the

ground, you can see that even across boroughs, even a few streets away

from one another, Prevent can take many different forms. For example,

engaging with mothers to teach them about internet safety so they can

pass that on. In another street, it could be engaging with youth groups

to look at identity issues. On another road, it could be engaging

with the facilities that can actually host guest speakers in

making sure they are aware of the hate laws and that they are aware of

the speakers coming in to engage within their facilities. This is a

52-year-old man and that has caused surprise, it's somebody who is older

and doesn't fit the normal profiles. What are your thoughts on what has

happened? It's already been mentioned that there is no

straightforward profiles are individuals who engage in armed

violence. Usually we associate armed and political violence with young

people but this case shows there is no one rule that applies to the

whole process. I think when we use terms such as radicalisation and

extremism, we are extremely careful as to these terms. The reason why I

say that is because the term radicalisation, which has gained so

much traction, is based on a framework that doesn't actually have

any evidence. When we talk about radicalisation, the official

definition is the process by which an individual leaves nonviolence and

becomes engaged in armed violence. There is no empirical evidence to

prove the core reason individuals become involved in armed violence,

which the government's Prevent strategy says is ideology, actually

causes terrorism. We have to make sure that we aren't using these

terms and critically. The same applies to the turn extremism. One

of your guests just referred to political violence through violent

extremist Islamist. These are polemical turns that don't mean

anything. What they eventually do is play, according to this historic

discourse, in which we, the civilised West, are at war with a

barbaric opponent that cannot be brought to the table. The anyway we

can defeat them is by basically excluding them. Partially one of the

reasons why political violence has become, or a militarised form of

activism by Muslims, has become more normalised, is because the

geopolitical situation and the international structures of the

world powers essentially exclude Muslims from articulating an

identity that seeks to govern according to a political

interpretation of their faith. I think until we recognise that these

are the drivers of political violence, political factors, we can

sit here and talk about radicalisation and extremism and how

we can implement more bollards outside Parliament or structure our

landscapes to ensure security. But the reality is, there will always be

somebody who will be willing to jump into a car and pick up a knife and

undertake acts of violence. I would issue a word of caution around using

these terms uncritically and look at the empirical evidence, which

doesn't give us a simple profile into why people become involved in

political violence. Partly I would agree with some of that. There is no

singular profile. There were some factual mistakes that were made in

terms of the government's perspective on this. It isn't that

ideology is the cause, it's multifactorial and there's a lot of

literature they put out to explain that. It is one of the primary

motivating factor is that they say is extremist ideology. As I was

saying, they've explained there is multiple factors, ideology being one

of them. In terms of being able to understand that and put it into

context, if you have an individual who has very strong political

grievances, somebody who has personal, psychological issues

maybe. If you take this as an example, not that we know the

details but Khalid Masood obviously has a violent past. He's someone who

is disposition and towards violence. A lot of people obviously have

strong political views and don't turn to violence. Exactly. There's a

danger in what the other guest was saying which was to create the idea

that just because you have strong political views, that means you are

inclined towards violence. It's not true. I'm not saying that. It's a

dangerous part of what you were saying, it implies that strong

political views somehow lead to violence, that's not the case.

That's what the government is framing its Prevent infrastructure

on. I did think anybody has said that except yourself. Let's let Sara

come in. I think there is a clear misunderstanding of what the

government's position on radicalisation is, on Prevent. If

you look at the Channel guidance, it makes it clear that there is no

single profile. It lists a range of different factors. It could be

bullying, peer pressure and mental health issues. The beauty of Channel

and Prevent in particular if it can recognise a multitude of

vulnerabilities and should be able to be flexible enough to recognise

that. One of those factors could be

ideology, I have come across many young people in my years as an

activist and they have highlighted how their children have been

radicalised and given violent extremist views. We cannot

underestimate that either but I think it is important to recognise

that it is not a one size fits all solution, but the fact is we have to

recognise that there is a problem and on the issue of Channel I

remember the former director-general in the office for counterterrorism,

he gave an interesting speech where he said 70% of people who went

through the Channel scheme did not need further intervention or help,

showing that Channel and Prevent is working, and if there was not

Channel all Prevent, what would we have in place to provide support to

those people in our country who are at risk of radicalisation? At the

moment, those who oppose Prevent have not offered any other strategy

to help people who are prepared to carry out these acts against our

country. We're out of time... Very briefly. The point about Channel and

mentioning mental health, etc, these sound like legitimate points but the

key point is that we are lumping the blame on the individual rather than

looking at the political reality within which the individual

operates, saying, this is nothing to do with us, and if you look at the

history of the world it has everything to do with us. Thank you.

Sorry, we are out of time, we've got lots more ground to cover on the

programme, but thank you all very much.

I just want to bring another comment on armed police because this is one

aspect of what we have been talking about this morning, it has got lots

of comments from you. Phil says, as a serving officer I would advise

that most officers do not want to carry firearms for one reason and

one reason alone, when we are forced to use them we get crucified by the

CPS, the courts, politicians and the media. Any officer could look

forward to 18 to 24 months of uncertainty, not knowing if they are

going to jail or going to lose their job and pension. The officers and

decisions they make in an instant under extreme pressure are judged by

armchair experts who have never had to face life or death decision.

Whilst I agree there must be oversight and transparency, at the

moment we have a witchhunt. Thank you for that, keep them

coming. Also coming up... We'll hear from some who have

witnessed horrific events With the news, here's Annita

in the BBC Newsroom. A fourth victim who died last night

after being knocked down in the Westminster attack has been

named by police as 75-year-old Leslie Rhodes from Streatham,

in South London. Two people remain in hospital

in a critical condition. Two police officers hurt

in the attack are also in hospital In a statement this morning,

police investigating the attack have revealed that they've made two

further significant Nine people are now in custody,

one woman has been released on bail. Police have also revealed

the attacker, Khalid Masood, was previously called

Adrian Russell Ajao. The police have appealed

for information from anyone The former president of Egypt,

Hosni Mubarak, who was overthrown after the Arab Spring uprisings

of 2011, has been freed Mubarak served almost six years

in detention on charges of killing protesters in the uprising that

ended his 30-year rule. But earlier this month an appeals

court cleared him of these charges Let's speed now to our correspondent

in Cairo. Presumably his release is controversial?

Definitely, it is controversial, it is disappointing, frustrating to

many people who supported the Revolution one day, people who took

to Tahrir Square to topple former president Mubarak, they saw him as a

symbol of corruption and repression so the fact that he went back home

today having breakfast with his family and friends, as his lawyer

told us a short while ago, this is a matter of great frustration and

disappointment to supporters of the revolution. But on the other hand

there are some of the people who see Mubarak as a story of the past, they

just focus on Egypt today, concerned more about the economic conditions,

the political situation, so there are people who see this as

frustration and disappointment, and there are others who just want to

focus on what is lying ahead, and they just considered Mubarak

something from the past. But still, his release today lies in sharp

contradiction with having tens of thousands of political prisoners

behind bars according to many local NGOs, so the fact that this man was

seen as a symbol of corruption and oppression by some people is free

while many political activist and political prisoners are behind bars

still brings a lot of disappointment, especially to those

who supported the revolution more than six years ago.

Sally, thank you for that. Bad behaviour in English schools

is not being dealt with properly and pupils' performance

is being negatively effected. That's the view of

the the Government's school behaviour expert,

Tom Bennett. In a review published today,

he says more funding and better training are needed

to tackle the issue. The report also recommends that

school inspectors pay more attention to behaviour issues,

and warns they are often glossed over when schools

produce good results. The President of the European

Commission has told the BBC that the EU will not seek to punish

Britain during Brexit negotiations. Speaking on the eve of the EU's 60th

anniversary celebrations, Jean-Claude Juncker said the exit

talks will be approached fairly but warned that Britain will be held

to financial commitments made Customers should be paid automatic

compensation by their phone companies for problems

with landlines and broadband. The telecoms regulator Ofcom says

providers should pay customers for slow repairs,

delayed connections The plans could affect more

than 2.5 million customers who would receive up to ?185 million

in new compensation At the moment, compensation is only

paid to a small number of customers. That's a summary of the latest

news, join me for BBC Lewis Hamilton called his first day

of the new Formula One season "99% perfect" after finishing fastest

in both practice sessions ahead He was more than half a second

quicker than the rest in the second session and that,

in Formula One, particularly That lap allowed him to finish ahead

of Ferrari's Sebastian Vettel and new Mercedes teammate

Valteri Bottas in Melbourne. Tottenham's Dele Alli is banned

for three European club games after his red card

during the Europa League The suspension will be

served if Spurs get Soren Kjeldsen's win at the WGC

Match Play golf sends And the world number two didn't even

play after his opponent withdrew. As a result Kjeldsen needed just

a half to prevent McIlroy reaching He got the point he needed, McIlroy

is out. And David Haye has been called

before boxing authorities to explain his comments

in the build-up to his heavyweight Haye had graphically described

the injuries that he hoped That is all Gosport Borough now,

more on BBC News throughout the day. Last night a candlelit vigil was

held in Trafalgar Square to remember those who lost their lives and were

injured in the Westminster terror attack. Among thousands who attended

were religious leaders from a number of faith is keen to show unity and

bring communities together. People have tried to tear this city

apart with acts of terror many times before. They have never succeeded,

and they never will. APPLAUSE.

We come together as Londoners tonight to remember those who have

lost their lives and all those affected by the horrific attack

yesterday. Londoners will never be cowed by terrorism will stop

APPLAUSE. As London and the UK begin to come

to terms with what has happened, how does the healing process start, and

is it possible to move forward? Well, we can now speak to four

people who have witnessed terror attacks that have happened

across Europe in recent years about their experiences and how

they learnt to cope with what they'd been through and deal

with the aftermath. Joining us via Skype from Nice

is Peter Chesley, who was almost hit by a truck in the Nice

attack last summer. Sumit Gupta owns a restaurant