15/06/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

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Victoria is in west London getting analysis and reaction to the Tower block fire.

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Hello, it's Thursday, it's nine o'clock.


I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.


The blackened shell that is Grenfell Tower


is all that remains of yesterday's horror.


The death toll at the moment stands at 12,


though it's expected to rise significantly.


My mum, my sister, her daughters and her husband.


Yeah, they're all still in the building.


I don't know if they're out because we don't have any information.


So many questions continue to be asked about what caused the blaze,


how this could happen, what can be done to ensure it never happens


again. It will allow fire to spread up, and what will happen is it will


create a path for the fire to spread and encourage the fire to spread


faster and more intensely. The original architect


of the building tells this programme he has serious concerns


about the recent refurbishment. That raises real questions about the


fire safety checks that were in place to stop families getting hurt.


Also, firefighters have worked through the night to dampen ablaze,


although some parts of the building on the upper floors remain alight.


The fire Brigade say the tower block is not structurally safe for them to


enter in some places. Meanwhile, local people continue to offer help


to those left destitute and homeless, this is where the relief


effort is being co-ordinated, and as you can see, there are piles of


clothes and toys that people have donated. We have also donated some


money, given money to families, Darren withdrew ?1000 from his


account, and we have been giving families ?100 just to see them over


the next couple of days. Good morning from North Kensington.


This morning we are at the Westway sports centre on one of their


basketball courts. You might be able to hear the traffic, we are just


under the Westway, the A40, one of the main arterial routes into the


capital, and here on this basketball court, people have donated so much


for those who lost everything in the fire at Grenfell Tower. Let me show


you some of the things that have been donated, look at those hundreds


and hundreds of pairs of shoes for teenagers, for young adults. Over


here, you can see the toys that have been donated for children, for


toddlers in particular down here, and the young girls, and then over


here the cuddly toys, and also bags and bags of books. Now, volunteers


spent much of yesterday, and most of the evening actually last night,


working through the night, to get these donations into some kind of


order, and you can see they have managed to do that. Here, piles of


Gilles' vests, dozens of them. Next to that, girls the' shirts, boys be'


jackets, underwear, socks, and so it goes on. If we can just show you a


360 degrees... Look at this, clothing donations for fire victims.


360 degrees around this basketball court, you can see how much stuff,


and this is just one area where people have donated, just one area.


Right next to me is the actual sports centre which is a relief


centre at effectively for people evacuated not from the tower itself,


but from surrounding homes and lives. And they provided beds for


300 last night. 40-50 people stayed in the end, many of them still


inside, many of them completely traumatised by what they witnessed.


There are mental health workers inside, I am told, social workers


inside, trying to help people come to terms with the fact that they may


have lost loved ones in the tower. Everybody says they have been


overwhelmed by support from the people who live in North Kensington.


The volunteers at these relief centres are saying, thank you for


everything you have donated, but we do not need any more for the moment.


What they need of volunteers during the day, because so many people are


having to go to work today, having stayed off yesterday. So they are


asking for volunteers from 9-5. I mean, the big question, when you


talk to people, it is much quieter this morning, it really is, you


know, the people I have spoken to, they just want to know why - they


just want to know why, how it is that something can happen like this


in a tower block in 2017. I am really keen to hear from you today -


if you live in a high-rise block of flats, I want to know if you are


confident today that your agency, your association, your management


organisation, whoever looks after you, whether it is the council,


whoever, are you confident they have done all that they can to keep you


safe? I really want to hear from you this morning, do get in touch in the


usual ways, Twitter, e-mail. They include Jessica Urbano Ramirez,


a 12-year-old who's believed to have become separated from her family


when the blaze broke out. Husna Begum, who lived


on the 17th floor and is missing with four other


members of her family. 27-year-old Mariem Elgwahry,


a marketing manager, who is believed to have last spoken


to someone 66-year-old retired lorry driver


Tony Disson, who lived Mo Tuccu, a British national


from Eritrea, who was visiting friends or


family at the Grenfell Tower with his wife Amalahmedin


and three-year-old daughter Amayah. They had gone to break


their Ramadan fast. 24-year-old artist Khadija Saye,


who lived on the 20th floor. Labour MP David Lammy's wife


was her employer and mentor. He tweeted, "If you have any


information about Khadija Saye, "She is our dear friend, a beautiful


soul and emerging artist." Khadija's mother, Mary Mendy,


is also missing. The official number of


dead stands at 12, although the police say


they expect that to rise significantly during a long


and complex recovery operation. Firefighters are continuing to


tackle pockets of fire in the block. I mean, that is astonishing, over 24


hours since the fire broke out, and there are still claims in that


building. Let me introduce you to Harris Iqbal, who is here, good


morning. I'm Victoria, nice to meet you. Tell our audience how you have


been helping. We are an international humanitarian


organisation that works in crisis hit countries around the world, and


we have been here since the onset of this emergency providing hot food,


hot food provisions, blankets, pillows, necessary essentials for


families to keep going in a very difficult time. I wonder, if you


would be so kind as to show some of the... I have mentioned to the


audience some of the things that have been donated, but if we can


walk down here, you can talk through. What are people saying to


you? The community response has been overwhelming, you can see the very


generous donations that have come in all sorts of forms, from clothing to


baby kit, nappies. You can see around you, also saw things that


have been distributed and provided for the families that have been


affected. We are currently at a stage where we are at capacity and


unable to accept anymore, but the response has been. Right. Why do you


think that is? I think the British community, that is something we are


exceptionally good at, at times of difficulty, times of catastrophe,


and this is very much a humanitarian crisis, you know, the way


communities pulled together is amazing, and over the last couple of


hours and days it has been a fine example of communities coming


together. There are some very traumatised people who are perhaps


only now absorbing the fact that they have lost a loved one in that


hour. Absolutely. There are a number of families who are grieving at the


moment, there are those who still have loved ones that are missing,


and others who have lost their homes, livelihoods and belongings.


And so it is a very distressing and upsetting time. We are providing


emotional support, and we will continue to do so over the next


couple of days. I am going to introduce Anne Johnson, good


morning, nice to see you. Nice to meet you too. You live around here?


What are you thinking about what has happened? I don't think anything for


what has happened, it is what I saw. It was around... Yeah, it must have


been around 12:45 in the morning, I heard a lot of commotion, obviously


it work me up, so I got up to see what was going on. And from my front


door, I could see the building on the top was on fire. And within half


an hour, but by from the top down to the bottom, and then from the top of


the building, it started spreading, like from the top to the end. At the


very top of the building, I saw around about six children all crying


for help. Within I would say by 1:30, from the top of the building


halfway down, smoke just got into the flats, everything went black,


and you never saw anybody again. Many people were hanging out their


verandas, screaming for help, waving their telephones, T-shirts,


anything, just to say, we are here, we need help, we need attention. By


around three o'clock, that whole building from the top nearly to the


bottom was gone and on fire. I don't know how many survivors made it, but


from what I saw there was not a lot that made it out. How does that


happen in this country, in this year? I mean, in 2017, in a modern


economy, the capital city? To be honest with you, I don't have an


answer for that, to completely honest with you. I have heard a lot


of stories, a fridge freezer or... I am sorry, a fridge freezer cannot


take a whole building down. It is no normal. Something is wrong


somewhere, but I cannot tell you what... No, I am just... Do you feel


angry? I feel angry that I saw people dying in front of my eyes, I


saw kids and a woman, and kids this age hanging from windows with


teddies. And that angered me, and nobody could help them. That really


angered me. Cos as a mother myself, I mean, the tears in my eyes were


unbelievable. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, women, children,


grown men, didn't even know what to do apart from hang out the windows


and scream and shout. And there was no help. I think there was help


there, but nobody could get to them, that fire was so severe, it was


unbelievable. We are hearing, my colleagues at the BBC are hearing


that the Prime Minister, Theresa May, is going to visit the area


today. What is your reaction to that? What is she going to do? She


should have done their job right in the first place and this wouldn't


have happened. I mean, a lot of people are saying it is from the


buildings, you know? But at the end of the day, the way I see it,


Theresa May is nothing to do with the building, but the politics never


gives a damn about Ladbroke growth area, do they? Wide you say that?


Well, if you look at what Chelsea has to offer, it has everything to


other, they have more in Chelsea than what we do here. Which comes


under the Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council. But there is a lot


more down in Chelsea. Why do you think that is, Anne? I don't know!


Maybe because it is the layers of the rich people. And here? Yes, EU


is -- here is is middle-class, my God, why are we getting into


politics? I am interested, you have lived here for a long time, you saw


what happened. It was very sad. Very, very sad. I don't know what


Theresa May is going to do, unless she has got another block of flats


to no make these people homeless, because we have enough in United


Kingdom. Thank you very much, Anne. Anne, a local resident. Paris, how


do you react back at the Prime Minister will be visiting today?


It is a distressing time for all of us, at times like this we need to


unite and let those affected know that we stand together and they have


our support. For the Prime Minister is sitting, I'm sure that will be of


some solace to those communities affected. It is a difficult time and


a very distressing time. Harrowing stories, accounts that I have heard,


first town. Coming together now as a British community, and provide the


essential aid and support that we need and befriending is absolutely


priceless. Thank you very much for speaking with us.


Dominating the skyline, this community, the black skeleton of


Grenfell Tower, dark, empty, firefighters have been there through


the night, there are still flames, we are told, on the upper stories,


and structurally there are parts which are unsafe for firefighters to


enter into, and so many questions, as you would expect, about what


caused the fire and why it took also quickly. Still burning over 24 hours


on. That building went up so fast. How?


Why? A lot of questions to be asked. The first of which, were there even


the most basic fire safety precautions.


All of a sudden, I heard my door, bang, bang, bang.


Evacuate? Evacuate.


Residents who survived were woken up by each other, not fire alarms.


Ran down the stairs, we were on the seventh,


as we were running down, we've gone to the fourth floor


But the fire alarm that was going off wouldn't


It weren't loud, it weren't, you know, it weren't


There was no fire alarm at all. No fire alarm that you could hear?


Another question mark hangs over evacuation procedures.


If I listened to the advice given to me by the fire brigade and also


by the TMO management team we could be dead.


They'd been told, in the event of a fire, to stay put.


This was one of my main concerns about living in a tower block.


On Saturday we did have the fire brigade team come around and speak


Check alarms to make sure they are working.


Just this Saturday? Just this Saturday.


Seriously? Yeah.


Yeah. And they told us the protocol


was to close your door because the fire door will withstand


the heat for a duration of time. We know that for Grenfell Tower,


that period of time is 30 minutes. Yet people were waiting


far, far longer. They were saying what?


Smoke. Hoping that the fire


brigade would get up there. Because that is what


they're told to isn't it? So they would have stayed in there,


waiting and following instructions. Nothing else you can do


from the 18th floor. My mum and my infant sister was,


they were there for five hours. Because the fire brigade


told them just to wait My mum was panicking,


I was panicking. Flats should be fire


resistant cells. So a fire should burn itself


out without spreading. Tower blocks aren't designed


for everyone to evacuate in one go. Which is why it's considered safer


to stay in your flat. The fact that on this occasion it


wasn't raises another big question. Why did the outside of the tower


block catch fire so easily? Grenfell Tower was


refurbished in 2016. The cladding was supplied by this


company, Harley Facades. You'd expect a cladding system


to prevent the fire spreading up You expect the cladding itself to be


noncombustible and you'd expect there to be fire stops,


fire breaks at each floor level to prevent it acting effectively


like a chimney and allowing the fire to spread all the way up


the outside of the building. One theory is the fire could have


spread through the cladding. over Kensington and Chelsea Tenant


Management Organisation Last year KCTMO put its fire safety


policy under review. Meanwhile residents


in the Grenfell Action Group warned They said a catastrophic event


will expose the ineptitude We can speak with our reporter, Jim


Reed, looking into some of the questions that need answering. Of


course, the first, how could this happen? Exactly, investigators are


going to spend months, if not longer, looking into the causes of


the fire. At this early stage, people are looking at the speed at


which the fire spread, simply should not happen in a modern tower block,


even one which has been refurbished, should not catch fire and should not


spread that quickly, that is what experts tell us. Yesterday one of


the original architect spoke with us. In 1974, he worked on it in the


late 1960s, even he described it as incomprehensible that it burned so


quickly, we built a concrete building and concrete simply does


not burn like that. What went wrong? It is not yet confirmed, a lot of


talk about the cladding that went on the outside of the building. Fixed


on about one year ago. You and the viewers at home will have seen this,


plastic looking substance, goes on the outside of older style blocks to


make it look pretty, and also for energy reasons, to make it more


efficient. So, potentially, that could have been partially


responsible. That is what some people say, the residents we were


speaking with, on this programme, brought it up again and again. We


have learned the panels fixed onto the outside were made of something


called ACM, that is aluminium composite material, that material


has been blamed for nearly a dozen high-rise flyers globally over the


last decade. France, Dubai, a couple of fires famously there. -- a dozen


high-rise fires. Regulations around those panels are quite sketchy, you


can have a situation where there is fire retardant material on the


outside that protects from firebug on the inside, the bag, it is not


fire leading to a situation where the inside burns through but the


outside is not, that creates a chimney effect, that is what it


looked like yesterday on television and social media. That is just a


theory. Needs a full investigation. The worst tower block fire like this


was in a place called lacquer Mulhouse, south London, 2009, last


night we spoke with Sam Webb, the expert in the inquest into those six


deaths, and again, he said, this is horribly familiar, pointed to the


cladding, looking at the television footage and said, the could this be


to blame, he said this was entirely preventable. -- Lakanal House. The


main contract to install this was Rydon and they say they have met the


regulations, the subcontractor, Harley Facades, not aware of any


link between the cladding and the fire at this time. What about safety


procedures? Brought up yesterday, a couple of real concerns about the


alarm system fitted. A new alarm system was fitted last year under


the refit, but people we have spoken with say they did not hear an alarm,


it did not get them out of bed, they were woken up by smoke alarms in


neighbouring flats. The evacuation procedure, people being told through


notices in the building that if the fire is not directly inside your


flat, stay inside. That is common advice for high-rise blocks across


the UK at the moment. That may be looked into. A sprinkler system as


well, after the earlier fire in lacquer Mulhouse, it was said that


perhaps that should be considered to install them in new house -- old


houses. If it had been newer, it would have a sprinkler system. --


lacquer null house. -- Lakanal House.


Wojciech should have been in place to make sure that a fire like this


did not happen? One of the things are and I certainly concur with


this, once they had done the major checks, they should carried out fire


risk assessment review. -- once they had done the major works. -- what


checks. Under approved document be,


regulation 38, all of the necessary information about what had been used


on the building should have been carried out, test report, whether


that was the correct application for the building, those questions need


to be answered. For a moment, assume all of that happened as it should,


are you then saying that the fire would not have happened or not? If


the cladding and what was behind the cladding had been properly fire


tested, and the surface spread of flames was appropriate, the fire


would not have spread up there. But Niall is more of an expert. The


exterior of the cladding has to be noncombustible, not what is behind


it. Under a note, and approved document, approved document be, a


statutory guidance to the building regulation, there is a requirement


for non-combustible cladding for buildings above 18 metres. --


approved document B. Or, 8414... Sorry, stop doing these numbers at


me... I'm going down on the hierarchy, the default condition is


noncombustible, the next is a very strong and worthy fire, the next is


and assessment by a test laboratory, and the next... We do not know which


of these procedures was used on this blog. It may have been fully fire


tested. I have my doubts. -- block. We have no idea. It is difficult to


say. Sorry to give you all of those numbers. No, that is fine. There are


questions to be asked on this cladding, I saw video from a


passer-by which showed very rapid narrow initial fire spread, 30


seconds or so to get to the top of the building, unbelievable, I have


never seen anything like it. What we have to remember is that each of the


flats is a bit like a shoe box, think about a shoe box, it should


have a half-hour protection around it at every angle, although shoe


boxes stacked on each other, if the fire is retained within that shoe


box for half an hour, that is more than enough time for fire brigade to


come to deal with the fire in the individual flat, which is where that


stayed put policy comes from. But it needs to be quantified, the state


put -- clearly everybody in this lot was affected by fire or smoke and so


they should have been evacuated the the stay put is clear about that.


Why was there that policy, that stay put policy, it is so that


firefighters can get up the stairs and not be impeded by people coming


down the stairs, is that correct? Would you want to live in a


high-rise block of flats where every time somebody burned their toes,


everybody has to evacuate, how many times a day would you be evacuating.


Where you have a property with a single step place -- single


staircase, they would be running up with all their equipment, a dry


riser in a high-rise block, they would set up the fire cordon one


level the fire, connected to the dry riser and run up. Once they run a


hose people coming down, once they put water in the hose, the hose will


go talk, any be on the stairs will be taken out. Do not want loads of


people coming out of the building in such a circumstance because people


will get injured. Thank you very much for coming down.


We are at the Westway sports Centre this Thursday morning, more than 24


hours after the fire broke out at Grenfell Tower. It is the structure


that looms over this community, it dominates everything. This is the


day when people are perhaps absorbing properly the fact they may


have lost loved ones. There are desperate people still searching for


missing relatives. There is a condolence wall, if I can put it


like that, I have tweeted a photograph of that, evil writing


messages to those who have lost lives. The messages include love and


prayers. There is also some anger on that wall. Justice for ground fell


-- justice for Grenfell, why did this happen to happen, whoever is


responsible, those selfish people will pay. Those are some of the


sentiments. Underneath, people laying flowers as a mark of respect.


We are going to walk across this basketball pitch past all these


donations, the volunteers have said they have enough now. They perhaps


do not have enough volunteers to sort through all the many hundreds


of bags, I mean, this is stuff that has not been sorted through yet,


look at these bin bags full of donations - clothes, jumpers,


sportswear, socks, underwear, toys. Over here, thank you, Mo, bedding,


duvets, mattresses, and so it goes on. Now, we are going to walk


through and out, because outside here, this is a queue of people who


are signing into volunteer. There with me as we walk through.


Hopefully, I will be able to introduce you to some of the


volunteers. Bear with me, excuse me, hello. Good morning. Hello, what is


your name? Abraham, how are you? Nice to see you, who is this? Hi,


Lucy, what is your role? I came down yesterday morning, and I was based


here until midnight last night, and I got up this morning and wanted to


get involved and do whatever I could to help. So you are a volunteer, do


you live locally? My house is just there, so sitting at home and


watching the news, just felt completely wrong, it down, do


whatever I could, seems the right thing. Abraham, tell cum about how


you have been helping. I started at six o'clock yesterday morning, just


to volunteer, the sports centre opened their doors for us, amazing.


Basically, people coming out of their houses with big bags, not


knowing what to do. It is lovely they opened their doors, and I took


control, and I said, I am the co-ordinated here, hundreds of


lovely volunteers spend hours, hours, more than 15 hours, sorting


this all out. What really struck me, if you walk past all the open spaces


here, full of people bringing stuff. And this is being coordinated, as


far as I can see, not by anybody in authority, not by the council - it


is people like yourselves. Absolutely, hands up to the


community, dedicated so much of their time, donations from different


charities, 100% effort. I guess it is confusing for a lot of


authorities, because they didn't know where to go, what was the main


centre? We have got so many viewers getting in touch, from all over the


country, saying, how can we help? What would you suggest? At the


moment, we are so full of generous, you know, donations. I think what we


need at the moment is if people can find locations and help sort out


things, this is one of our biggest collection points, and we need


volunteers to help sort it out. Hopefully, the council can arrange.


People further afield, they can donate to all sorts of places


online, official fundraising campaigns for those have lost


everything. There are people who have managed to escape that horror


and have everything that they have worked for, gone. I think we don't


know, we don't know how much stuff there is, we don't know where it is


going to go. The people arriving now, people are texting, there are


continually questions, what can we do? I think we are going to find out


today, as the days and weeks unfold. It is not just yesterday, not just


today, there will be more to do over the coming weeks, continue fighting


for this. What to think about what has happened in your community?


Long-term or just in the last 24 hours? You tell me. What was


amazing, yesterday, the camaraderie and spirit that crossed languages,


cultures. People were working from their hearts, it is something that


is moving and exhilarating, in the current state of what is going on,


it is heart-warming. OK. If I may, Lucy, Abraham, bear with me, I am


just getting this statement from the Queen. The Queen has said her


thoughts and prayers are with those families who have lost loved ones in


the Grenfell Tower fire and the many people who are still critically ill


in hospital. Wow. It is lovely. The families that are in here are being


taken care of, a full team of supporters, they have everything


they need. The best we can do is just do what we are doing. We will


also reporting earlier that the Prime Minister, Theresa May, is due


here today. We will see what happens. I'm not sure how the public


will react, because there is a lot of anger, a lot of the volunteers


are local guys. I'm not really sure. What do you mean? It was kind of


heated, people were really frustrated with the situation.


Because it happened? The reasons why it happened, and children, you know,


we had young children wanting to volunteer, jumping up and down,


laughing and smiling, but they have friends who they have lost because


they went to the school across the road, they have lost friends. So


many people have lost friends and family, you know, we will do as much


as we can. We are very organised here, great team, great volunteers,


loads of volunteers with a structure of what were going to do for the


day. But if you want to volunteer, go to different areas, leisure


centres et cetera, go and help yourself. Thank you very much,


Abraham, Lucy, thank you very much, thank you. This statement from the


Queen, a little longer, I will read it to you. My thoughts and prayers


are with those families who have lost loved ones in the Grenfell


Tower fire, and the many people who are still critically ill in


hospital. Prince Philip and I would like to pay tribute to the bravery


of firefighters and other emergency service officers who put their lives


at risk to save others. It is also heartening to see the incredible


generosity of community volunteers rallying to help those affected by


this terrible event. We have also got this breaking news to bring you


- Labour are calling for an inquiry into fire safety in tower blocks to


be completed by the summer. Let's talk to assistant political editor


Norman Smith, Phil us in. There is mounting frustration at Westminster


that because Parliament is not sitting, there is no opportunity for


MPs to quiz ministers about fire safety, so Labour have jumped the


gun and said they want an inquiry to be completed by the summer, and in


the interim they want the recommendations of a previous


report, following the Lakanal House tower block tragedy in south London,


to be implemented immediately. Now, that would mean, for example, the


installation of sprinklers in at risk tower blocks. It would mean a


review of building regulations to include the safety of cladding,


which of course is at the centre of much of the concern about what has


happened at Grenfell Tower. It would also include updated advice to


residents about whether they should stay or whether they should get out


- that too has been central to Grenfell Tower. And there would also


be an instruction that there had to be a sort of box at the bottom of


the tower block which would give firefighters all the information


they needed about routes, access, lifts, stairwells and all that sort


of thing. So they are in effect saying we cannot afford to hang


around, we have to implement the 2013 recommendations which by and


large have either been rejected or shelved. OK. And Theresa May and


Jeremy Corbyn are going to come here to the scene of the tragedy today,


is that correct? That is right, the Prime Minister will be there ahead


of Jeremy Corbyn, both obviously want to show their condolences,


there is sadness, there horror at what happened. But there is, I have


to say, some pressure on the Government now to come forward with


more than simply expressions of condolences. There were demands


yesterday for a statement in Westminster, not in the Commons


because it is not sitting - the statement in one of the committee


rooms where a minister, as well as the emergency services, as well as


the local council, could be quizzed by MPs. Having spoken to the


authorities at Westminster, that does not seem to be about to happen.


I think there is a degree of anger that it is just not acceptable,


given the scale and nature of this tragedy, that there is no immediate


mechanism whereby MPs can, as it were, hold the Government to


account. Now, I'm sure ministers will they have set up the civil


contingencies Secretariat to pull together the different information,


and we had an assurance last night that any lessons to be learned would


be, but I have spoken to MPs saying that is not good enough, what is


needed is a full-blown public inquiry, not merely to establish


what has gone wrong, but to reassure the public and people living in the


thousands of tower blocks elsewhere in Britain. Yeah. I am asking people


who live in high-rise blocks of flats this morning, if they feel


confident that he was -- that whoever is looking after them, do


they feel safe? Let me ask you about criticism of Gavin Barwell, a former


Conservative MP, he lost his seat in the general election, then he was


made Theresa May's chief of staff, why such criticism? Criticism


because he was the former housing minister, and back in October last


year, he promised to produce a review of the building regulations,


and the fact is that just has not emerged, and that, I have to say,


follows on from the previous housing minister, Brandon Lewis, who


similarly was challenged to implement the lack of -- the Lakmal


house recommendations, and that also seems to have disappeared into the


long grass. At the moment, politicians are holding back because


it is just not appropriate in the aftermath of such a tragedy to be


making those very direct political accusations. But there is no doubt


that there are a whole load of very difficult questions waiting to be


answered by Gavin Barwell once this tragedy is over.


Agger very much, Norman Smith, apologies if you frantically called


me trying to work out who our next guests would be. I am here as an


individual Assembly Member, but that is one of my jobs. You are a local


councillor, is that correct? Yes. So today, what questions would you like


answered? Well, something the leader of the council said yesterday, the


leader of the Council, Kensington and Chelsea, he said that when the


refurbishments of the tower was finished, there would have been a


full inspection, which suggested to me that he has not seen any full


inspection, and that raises the question as to whether there was a


full inspection. Would-be leader of the council get to see that report?


-- I think if he were going to be interviewed after a horrendous fire


like this, I would expect him to be fully briefed, yes. Had he seen an


inspection, he would have seen that the only fire escape, the single


stairwell, was not part of the refurbishment. The lights were on


but not working properly, clearly not working properly yesterday. We


asked for that to being clued up, and they basically said we cannot do


that is there isn't enough money, the country, not enough money to


refurbish the fire escape. I think that is absolutely outrageous. What


would that have achieved? It would have achieved working lights,


possibly a fire alarm, and easier way for people to get down. If you


have not seen the staircase, it is really manky and nasty. It is not


central, it is at one side of the building, and it is the only fire


escape. Right, OK. Sian Berry, what about yourself? Well, following


previous incidents like this, the Lakanal House buyer, we came to the


same conclusions as the coroner, and one of the recommendations was that


fire risk assessments need to be published, need to be available


online, not just for councils that need to see them, but a residence in


the blocks to want to inspect the safety of their blocks, transparency


is a real is you. Obviously, we have talked about the recommendations to


change the fire regulations, and the difficulties that there are with you


is responsible levels. The problem we have got is that there is a


conflict of interest. The owners of buildings are the people responsible


for carrying out fire risk assessments. There is no statutory


process of signing things off, like they used to be. It is not the same


as it used to be. I understand that, that is a very fair point. Are you


suggesting that the landlord or management organisation in charge of


a block, they don't do the fire assessment themselves, they would


call in an expert. They are responsible for calling in an


expert, and when the Fire Brigades did an assessment, they found 20%


were not adequate, there are lots of questions about the people doing


them. It is a lesser regime than it used to be, and that does seem to be


an issue, especially when it comes to transparency and accountability


to the residents. One of the real things we can see out of this is


that the residents themselves were organised, looking at things in


detail, they were making recommendations, and yet they seem


to have been treated more or less like troublemakers, and that is


something we are seeing right across London - residents are not treated


with respect, and they are acting in the interests of their neighbours,


they should be more involved in the management of their blocks, they


should be treated better. I was going to say, the residents raised


questions about the fire safety ever since the power surges in 2016. They


asked them to pay for their own independent expert, looking at fire


regulations and the situation there and they were told it was not


necessary, that the TMO had commissioned their own expert, don't


worry your pretty little heads about it, go away. What have the council


been able to do in terms of urgency accommodation for those who were


evacuated, those who escaped. Those evacuated as well from surrounding


flats and houses. Some of those who have been evacuated went back to


their homes, I think they went willingly, but as far as the


Grenfell Tower residents are concerned, I had an e-mail this


morning from a family that came from the tower, in a hotel in Earls


Court, given no indication as whether they will stay for a second


night or what their future will be. Everybody in temporary accommodation


should be given the fullest information as to what... Is it


possible there is not the fullest information yet? But surely they can


be told if they can stay a second night because they have nowhere else


to go, no belongings, nothing. Why are they in the dark like that, it


adds to the horrendous experience they have been through. The Prime


Minister Theresa May has arrived, we are hearing, in the vicinity of


Grenfell Tower. Really. Yes. Well, she will not get a very good


reception from the residents, residents are getting very angry.


Yesterday they were traumatised and distraught, today they are


exceedingly angry. Is that what you are finding? Yes, the residents were


angry before this happened, they were warning of this, the anger out


there, generally, across London, across the country, from people who


have had similar experiences with refurbishments who still have


unanswered questions, is rather huge. Councils around London, that


run housing in London, they need to be getting the fullest possible


information out of people about who has cladding that might be at risk


and get them to do assessments of what the problems might be as soon


as possible. People need reassurance, they feel let down.


Here is a private visit from the Prime Minister. Really? She should


probably be protected from the residents as she was protected from


the electorate during the general election campaign. If she is to meet


residents, what will they say to her? They would be extremely


expletive deleted, but without the expletives deleted! They will tell


her about what has been going on for five years, how their concerns have


been sidelined, the towel refurbishment was done to them, not


with them, and there were so many problems that were completely


ignored throughout the process. -- the tower refurbishment. The


board... And arm's-length management organisation, TMO, used to manage


all the states in the Royal Borough. I raised all of these problems at


the board, basically, they said, you are speaking only on behalf of those


rabble-rousers, at Grenfell Tower, we can ignore you. How do you


respond? We have a slightly new board now, slightly more supportive


people, when I raise issues of concern to communities, they back me


up, but that board was not in place then. Thank you both, and give very


much. And thank you, Green Party chair of the London assembly housing


committee. Thank you for your messages from around the country,


this is from Twitter, your guest earlier hit the nail on the head,


this was a local resident. How can a fridge exploding set fire to a whole


block of flats? Craig on Twitter has said, what a fantastic response by


the people of London, after the fire. What other local authorities


doing? We are not hearing from them, these people need help. And this


from somebody who does not leave their name, regular people with


heartbreaking details and honest opinion, people rarely heard, honest


and fair reporting from you this morning. I'm really interested to


hear from you, if you live in a block of flats, whether you feel


confident, how confident you feel about whether the association, the


agency, the management organisation, the tenant organisation, which runs


your block of flats, how confident you feel in them when it comes to


keeping you safe? Good morning, we will bring you the latest news and


sport in just a moment. It is much busier now, when we arrived first


thing this morning, it was so quiet, I think perhaps people did not


realise that some of the roads had reopened, the Westway, the main


road, one of the main routes into the capital, is open. Latimer Road


tube station is open, Ladbroke Grove is open, which is Notting Hill,


which is where the Carnival is, which many of you will have been to.


And now, you can still see people arriving to volunteer, have a look


at these people, just signing in, volunteers, people who live locally


and further afield. The message has got through, I think, no more


donations are needed, no more donations needed. But, what they do


need our helpers, and these are some helpers signing in. Good morning.


Hello. Are you volunteering? The whole community is chipping in. They


are taking our telephone numbers, and when it is needed we will come


and help. It is good to know that they do not need help at the moment


because so many people are already helping out. You will come back


later if they need you? Yes, we live locally. We will try to help. Thank


you. Thank you very much. So, the extraordinary community effort,


another example of it there, to help the victims of the blaze. Brought


together, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, in a perfect


example of community spirit. Also, people like Adele turned up to a


vigil, who was apparently hugging and comforting survivors. Churches


and community centres have opened their doors from first light to


accommodate those rescued from the blazing building and those who had


been evacuated from surrounding homes. Let's talk now to some of


those people who dedicated their time and effort, time and energy, I


should say, to the support effort. Hello, Miranda, hello. How are you?


Who else have we got here. Lukman. Hello. And Younes. I'm Victoria,


thank you for speaking with us. Miranda, you headed to a church, you


are not religious but you headed to a church to help. We are at the


Notting Hill gate Methodist Church, there was a door open, the minister


was there, one lady, one bag, we decided to turn it into a centre. We


have had donations from the children, residents have come in


telling us appalling stories about how they are still waiting for the


families. But we did have 19-year-old girl who brought us in a


pair of trainers, they will auction them, Nike trainers, thank you! What


the people say when they bring their donations. They say... Well, we do


not have time to chat with them, so we cannot chat with them, we have


had people go to the rugby club, but the situation, everybody is


horrified by this needless, pointless crime. You say crime? Yes,


I use that word with passion. You use it advisory? This is a crime,


needless, pointless, they have been asking for fire certificate safety


certificate since 2014 and they never got one. I think it is


shocking... We are not doing this... We should not have to be doing this!


Had they taken care of everybody in the borough, not just the rich


people...! This would not have happened. They would not have to


suffer as they have. I was talking to one lady just now, cuddling her,


she was crying, she has lost some family and some family are


missing... Because that is what it is about, about the residence. --


residents. Miranda is very emotional, totally understandable,


tell us how you have been helping. Started off with somebody phoning me


and telling me that they have some clothes to donate, a friend of mine.


I live local, near the incident, I can get access to places more easily


than him because all the roads were blocked off. Then I decided to call


my friend, who had a vehicle, and basically, we formed some groups, on


Whats App, and on Twitter, as well. We did not expect it to be as good


as what it did turn out to be. Basically, people from Birmingham,


Luton, Brentford, Wembley, all over, Muslims, non-Muslims, all of them


phoning me. My phone did not stop ringing and ringing and ringing.


With donations. Clothing. To the point, I used my house as a drop-off


point as well because I live local as well. A lot of people with bands


were helping me, to distribute all the things everywhere. -- vans and


we managed to raise between five and ?8,000 as well. In one day. We did


as well. -- we did as well. Separately?! We


did as well, somebody came from North London to give us a lot of


money, I will not say how much, but somebody gave us a lot of cash


money. -- vans. And we managed to raise between ?5,000 and ?8,000.


Cash donations, but no more goods. Tell us what you have been doing. He


phoned me in the early hours of the morning, he said, I need to use your


car, to collect, we have clothes in Wembley. To bring it back to the


people that need it. In Grenfell Tower. I came in my car, collecting


trainers, clothes, things like that, distributing it to the people that


need it. I am part of a Leytonstone education trust, we are a mosque and


educational centre, community centre, one of the first mosques out


of many to respond yesterday. Within a few hours, the whole back wall was


packed with food items and essentials. This is not just a North


Kensington effort, this is London, data London, further afield do come


together, we will have two invade each other's body space. I am a


part-time imam at the mosque, and in the month of Ramadan, as Muslims, as


non-Muslims, as a community, coming together and giving something back.


We are receiving donations not just from Leytonstone and Stratford but


also from places like Luton, places like Ilford as well, people from all


over London and outside of London coming in and participating, it is a


community effort. Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you, thanks for


talking to us, we appreciate it. Coming up to 10am, we will bring you


the latest news and sport in just a moment. Before that, the weather


forecast. Things turning a little bit fresher


today, warm, muggy night, pretty uncomfortable for sleeping for many


of us. Here is the scene taken early on by one of the weather Watchers in


North Wales. More sunshine later on, scattered showers, and the fresher


feel to the weather, particularly as we had through the afternoon. Cold


front moving west to east across the country, a band of cloud, really,


with light showers, but any showers fading away as it pushes towards the


south-east. Then we are left with some sunshine but also scattered


showers, particularly for Scotland and Northern Ireland as well.


Further south, plenty of sunshine, temperatures in the West 17 or 18


degrees, little bit cooler than recent days, warmer than that


further east, where you keep the warm air for longer. One or two


shower was propping up through northern England but Northern


Ireland and Scotland will have the bulk of the showers. Some of them


quite heavy, could be the odd rumble of thunder, quite blustery with


gusty winds in and around the showers. Moving through into the


evening, fine end to the day for many of us, showers in the north


tending to ease away as we had through the overnight period, mostly


dry through the early hours, not quite as hot and muggy as it was


last night. Temperatures around 12, 13 degrees, cooler than they were


first thing this morning. Through the day tomorrow, a lot of dry


weather once again with sunshine particularly in the south and the


East, more clouds towards the north-west with rain across Northern


Ireland and into Scotland. Temperature wise, we could see 23,


24 degrees. Fresher than that further north. As high pressure


builds through the South as we had through Friday night, that will be


the driving force of the weather, low pressure system bringing the


front, fairly cloudy, breezy and damp for the north-west of Scotland,


but elsewhere, it is looking dry once again. Light wind and sunshine,


temperature likely to reach around 28 degrees during the course of


Saturday. Into Sunday, that heat rising even more, we could see 30


degrees towards the south-east. Cooler towards the north-west, some


rain across the North West of Scotland. Elsewhere, looking dry.


Plenty more summery weather on the cards, through much of the next few


days, into the weekend, you can find a full tender 10-day forecast at the


website. -- you can find a full ten day forecast.


Hello, it's Thursday, it's ten o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.


Prime Minister Theresa May is meeting residents and firefighters


at the Grenfell Tower block now, about 150 metres or so away from


where we are broadcasting to you from in North Kensington. But what


kind of reception issues getting? They will be exceedingly expletive


deleted, but without the deletions, they will be telling her what has


been going on for the last five years, how their concerns have been


ignored, they have at the tower Ruth Jebet done to them, not with them,


and there were so many problems which were completely ignored. --


tower refurbishment. Fire still blazes in some


parts in the charred The death toll remains at 12


but that is expected to rise as dozens of people


are still unaccounted for. I saw around about six children all


crying for help, and within, I would say by 1:30, that all top of the


building halfway down, smoke just got into the flats, everything went


black. And you never saw anybody again.


This is the scene at Grenfell Tower now, where firefighters


are still trying to bring the fire under control.


Firefighters have been explaining the difficult circumstances


It is very difficult for people to comprehend, when they look at a


building, why we cannot just go in and see it, but due to the severity


of the fire and what happens in those circumstances, everything


inside all of those rooms, basically, ends up on the floor in


large amounts of volumes of stuff. Many questions continue to be asked


about what caused the blaze and what can be done to ensure


it never happens again. One problem that people we have


spoken to say the regulations around the panels are quite sketchy. You


can have a situation where there is fire retardant material on the


outside, but on the inside, on the back, it is not fire resistant, and


that can lead to a situation where the inside burns through, and people


say that can lead to a chimney effect.


Hello, good morning. Theresa May, the Prime Minister, has arrived at


the Grenfell Tower block in the last few minutes. We are told that she is


meeting residents, and she is meeting firefighters. It is a


private meeting, there are no media there. That is about 150 metres or


so from where we are in North Kensington, this is the Westway


sports centre, and on this basketball pitch you will see


hundreds and hundreds of bags and boxes and nappies and clothes that


people have donated over the last 24 hours or so. So much stuff has been


brought, as we were hearing before the news, not just by people who


live here but across London, Greater London and further afield. And the


messages, thanks so much for the things you have broad, they don't


need anything else at the moment. But they do need volunteers, people


volunteering, many of them live in a local area, they are signing a sheet


to say, if you need us, ring me, here is my name, here is my number.


The idea small group of volunteers here, would-be volunteers, is the


sports centre. Last night they offered 300 beds for those who have


been evacuated from the houses and flats around Grenfell Tower. In the


end, about 40-50 people stayed in that sport centre, they had beds,


showers, booed. We are told that some people inside are incredibly


traumatised by what they witnessed, and there are mental health workers


and social workers who are on hand to talk to them. What is also


astonishing, 24 hours after that lays first began, there are still


parts of the building still alight. Firefighters are still there, they


have worked through the night again to dampen the fire at the block of


flats. 12 people officially dead, although that number is expected to


rise significantly, with many, many still missing.


They include Jessica Urbano Ramirez, a 12-year-old who's believed to have


become separated from her family when the blaze broke out.


Husna Begum, who lived on the 17th floor


and is missing with four other members of her family.


27-year-old Mariem Elgwahry, a marketing manager,


who is believed to have last spoken to someone


66-year-old retired lorry driver Tony Disson,


who lived on the 22nd floor of Grenfell Tower.


Mo Tuccu, a British national from Eritrea,


who was visiting friends or family at the Grenfell Tower


with his wife Amalahmedin and three-year-old daughter Amayah.


They had gone to break their Ramadan fast.


24-year-old artist Khadija Saye, who lived on the 20th floor.


Labour MP David Lammy's wife was her employer and mentor.


He tweeted, "If you have any information about Khadija Saye,


"She is our dear friend, a beautiful soul and emerging artist."


Khadija's mother, Mary Mendy, is also missing.


Here's a reminder of the last 24 hours.


So mums, dads, a marketing manager, an artist, so it goes on, so many


people unaccounted for. As I mentioned, flames can still be seen


inside the tower block, here is a reminder of the last 24 hours.


A massive fire in a west London tower block,


many people are being treated for injuries.


Move right back, please! Thank you very much!


The movement of the fire across the entire building


didn't take more than half an hour, so I would say from 1:30am


until 2am was just about, by two o'clock it was all in flames.


Things falling out, people screaming,


Chucking ropes down what they'd made out of bed sheets


Just complete nightmare. Absolute nightmare.


people flashing their phone lights for help.


But the Fire Brigade can't get upstairs.


People like at their windows, "Help me, help me, help me."


And you could see the fire going into the house


and into the last room that they're in


and just engulfing their whole apartment.


because there was no other way to save them.


They were, from what I have heard, also people have picked


up their kids and thrown them out for the police to pick them up


because there was no other way out the building.


I'm very sad to confirm that there have been a number of fatalities.


It was like waking up in a horror film.


How did you get out, then, Michael? Just my wits.


I just, you know, I had to get her out.


I love them, so what was I going to do?


I'm not going to run on my own, so I made sure she was all right


with her breathing and I got down the stairs.


And when we got out and looked up, it was engulfed.


That's what I'm saying, if we was in there another five


minutes we wouldn't even have been able to get out.


With the thickness of the smoke that was coming up.


Seventh. Seven, yeah?


There's mothers that have come out and lost their children.


There are firefighters that have come out injured.


Like we don't know if there are even going to come out safe.


We saw lot. We saw a lot, man.


We saw, we saw a lot with our own eyes.


It's all right, you don't have to say any more.


You've got family who are on the 18th floor?


Yeah. And you spoke to them last night?


Yeah. And they were saying what?


Smoke. Can't get out because of the smoke.


So I suspect, I don't know what I would do if I was them,


Hoping that the Fire Brigade would get up there.


Because that's what they are told to do, isn't it?


They are told to stay in the flat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


So they would have stayed in there, waited and followed instructions.


Nothing else you can do from the 18th floor.


We don't know if they're alive or dead,


if they are in hospital or not. We have not any clue.


I just, I just want everything to be false and I don't want to...


Our focus now is search and rescue,


and then move to, I'm afraid, recovery.


And of course we've got to make sure in the meantime


we provide shelter to those who've had to flee their homes.


I've just come to offer my house, places to stay.


I can take about six to eight people in, for as long as they need it.


Just basically letting the community know to get together,


just to urge them to come, put their names down


for who can help and whatever they can offer, really.




with people treated in hospitals across London. NHS England tell us


that King's College Hospital, they received ten patients, and six


remain critical. Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, they receive


nine patients, seven remain critical. At the Royal Three, six


patients, one critical. Guys and Saint Thomas, one admission, that


individual is not said to be in a critical condition. And that St


Mary's, 11 admission is, 11 patients, three of those patients


are critical. People who either got out themselves or were rescued from


Grenfell Tower. Let me introduce you now to two people, thank you very


much for talking to us. You have volunteered to help families in


particular who are searching for missing loved ones. How are you able


to help? I am helping by interpreting from Ethiopian


languages to English, and also the Eritrean community as well, to find


their missing loved ones. What about yourself? As the Muslim community,


we know that 90% of people living in the building were Islam, and most of


the missing people, they are families, families missing, so it is


a big hit for the Muslim community, but there is a whole missing from my


primary school, and I know another family in person, and all of that


missing as well, six people, three children, Mum, dad and the mother of


the mum, bisulphite or two girls Arabic language. When you are


talking about several Tom Bowker families, you are talking about


several generations. I know six families. Six families? We start to


receive the message, we have been passing messages to each other, and


all of that is passing between us as a community. And as you are doing


your translating, I mean, what sort of people are the families that you


are helping? I had a report of three families, all groups, and they don't


have any information on their whereabouts, if they are


hospitalised, they are not getting any information to tell us where


they are. And we are also looking for a five-year-old, and a


three-year-old girl. In terms of not getting information, so no-one


official, no-one in authority is talking to the families you are


helping? They are not giving us any information, they are not willing to


give information to tell us which hospital they are in, if they have


been admitted to any hospitals, or if they have been found, or if they


are alive. Is it possible they do not know themselves? There is that


possibility but I mean, it would be nice, you know, even no, we do not


know is an answer, and we haven't even got that kind of answer. The


families need to be told whether they do have some information or


whether they don't have the information. Sure, I understand, OK.


Thank you very much... We are angry as a community, because we think the


rescue teams could do more, people were stuck in the building, and I am


just wondering why they didn't, instead of just relying on rescue


from the ground. They should use something from the air, and they did


not. We think they could have saved a much more families.


The response has been from the community, rather than the local


council or the government, also, most people that have given aid and


come to give assistance are people of the community. Thank you, thank


you both, thank you. Introducing you now to lay the's


housing spokesman, John Healey. Good morning. Have you been to see the


block? I have not, I have been talking to firefighters who have


been there, and they have never seen anything like it in 30 years of


firefighting. It should never have happened, that is what people are


saying, it should never have happened. I guess the investigation


will tell us that, I'm very mindful, as we look at the wider concerns


today, many people are still missing, firefighters still trying


to get too many parts of the building, for the first time,


hundreds of people have lost everything, they are now homeless.


Bearing that in mind, what is also clear is that they, the residents,


and others, have really serious questions to put to ministers and


the people who run the building. What are the questions that you as a


politician would like to see answered, and quickly? For me, I'm


glad the Prime Minister is coming for herself this morning, I'm glad


she has announced a review, that must not be delayed, it really


should report before the summer. The government does not need to wait


before then -- until then, it can act on recommendations made by


coroners four years ago after the fire in Camberwell. First of all,


they can and should start installing sprinkler systems in some of the


higher risk high-rise blocks around the country, it should overhaul


building regulations which it promised to do four years ago,


finally, it really should make sure there is better clear advice and


information to residents in tower blocks about what to do in the awful


event that they are faced with fire. Theresa May is here. We are told.


Meeting firefighters and residents. Jeremy Corbyn is coming after that,


is that correct? I'm joining Jeremy Irons 11am, just after speaking with


you, we will speak with the firefighters, we will speak to some


of those who have been staffing these community rescue centres. One


of the things that the brand-new MP told you last night, when I spoke


with her, the support centres have been totally swamped with clothes,


blankets, food, and love, and that has been another remarkable


demonstration of how people pull together to help others, when the


very worst is faced. Why do you think the recommendations from the


fire in Camberwell in south London have not been implemented when that


fire was so many years ago? Ministers were clear at the time,


they rejected out of hand two recommendations, they said that they


would review the building regulations, which are the Bible for


designers, builders, those that build these buildings and do


refurbishments. The review has not been started. How do you know? The


latest Housing Minister confirmed in October they did not have a plan to


even start the review. It has been shelved, put on the shelf for four


years, it has not been started, no plan to start it, and that... That


is an urgent piece of work which could be done alongside getting on


with the business of retrofitting is the technical term, putting


sprinkler systems into high-rise blocks, starting with the once that


our highest risk, and that should be done... Should that be mandatory? It


should be started without delay, I have had confirmation that the calls


I have made and Labour has been making over the Minister to come to


the House of Commons this afternoon will happen. Our Parliament is


paralysed by the paralysis of Downing Street so cannot formally


meet until after the Queen's speech but a minister will come, there will


be a public session, he will make a statement, MPs, particularly those


that represent areas around here, have been working with people who


have been trying to deal with this terrible fire, they have a chance to


start asking some of the questions that people have been raising with


you, and raising with them. Thank you very much. John Healey, Labour's


housing spokesman. As you know, they were the first


ones in and some of the last out, praise and tributes continue to pour


in for the 200 firefighters who tackled and continued to tackle


yesterday's blaze in the most challenging circumstances.


Grateful Londoners cheered them in the street for their "selfless"


work to save men, women and children trapped as flames ripped


This Evening Standard photographer described the scene


Over the years working for the Evening Standard I have seen some


awful things but this has two rate as one of the worst. I felt


helpless. -- this has to rate as one of the worst.


Theresa May, the Prime Minister, has left the area around Grenfell Tower,


she has been here this morning, meeting residents and firefighters,


it was a private visit, no media was allowed. A short time ago, Dany


Cotton spoke to us and explain the latest. Terribly difficult inside


the building, difficult for people to comprehend when they look at the


building wife we cannot just go in, but due to the severity of the fire,


and what happened in those circumstances, that everything


inside all of those rooms basically ends up on the floor, in large


amounts of volume of staff, combined with the amount of water in there,


it becomes very difficult for officers to get in there and in


order to do a systematic and proper search, we need to make the building


safe so that officers can get in there and go through it. We are


aware that there are people unaccounted for, family and friends


are very distressed and need to know the whereabouts of loved ones. We


are doing everything we can to work as hard as we can with police and


other colleagues to make that happen. Can you tell us a little bit


about the immediate aftermath, when officers first arrived, what were


they able to do, what levels were they able to reach? Very early on in


the fire, my firefighters battled through intense heat, to reach some


of the higher floors. I spoke to a crew who had been to the 20th floor.


We targeted flats where we were getting calls where we knew where


people were. We committed crew of the crew into a


very dangerous and very hot situation because we had a passion


to do as much as we could to rescue the people in there. It was a very


challenging, very difficult, very traumatic event for everyone


involved. Have any of your officers been injured? We had minor injuries


yesterday, up to nine of my firefighters suffered minor burns.


Some heat exhaustion. I'm more concerned longer term


about the mental impact on a lot of people who were here,


because this event was unprecedented and people saw and heard


things on a scale they had Going forward, one of my main


concerns for firefighters is about mental well-being and doing trauma


care and counselling for them. I understand the point you made


about the difficult circumstances The figure of those confirmed dead,


the police figure, so far, 12 confirmed dead, they have warned


they expect that figure Unfortunately, this is the awful


thing for the people involved, we are unaware of how many people


are in the building, as you can appreciate,


this is a very large building with a large number


of people in there. Some people may have lived alone,


we are not sure if they are in there People who were reported missing


who subsequently may have been We are completely unaware


at the moment, we can only work with numbers


in the local authority and police As soon as we can, we will go


into the building and do the painstaking fingertip search


in conjunction with Had me introduce you to the general


secretary for the Fire Brigades union, also a firefighter for 22


years, good morning, Matt Wrack, and Ronnie king, a firefighter for 40


years in London, Wales, Scotland and a chief fire officer for 20 years


and is now a administrative secretary for the all party Fire


safety and rescue group. First of all, as former firefighters, can you


give an insight to the audience as to what it is like when you arrive


at the scene of a blaze like the one we saw yesterday? The first thing to


say, looking around the site, horrifying, we have not seen


anything like that, I certainly have not. I have been too many fires in


high-rise tower blocks but I have never seen anything like this. What


firefighters have been prepared for and train for is one thing but what


they saw here, completely different. You expect the fire to be contained


to the flat, the floor of origin. What we saw, as we have seen, the


entire building engulfed in flames, the people arriving first will have


been in complete shock and will not have been prepared for this,


absolutely staggering. Having been a fireman, and chief fire officer, I


have arrived at incidents were command decisions have been made and


it has got to a certain level of resources... In this case, I think


if I had arrived at that, and we got to the period where we are, where we


were, when perhaps the chief fire officer arrived, you would have then


expected a plan of attack, a strategy, and whether to concentrate


on water or rescue. There is a point reached where both run


simultaneously. Very stressful situation for everybody involved. I


can do nothing but praise firefighters and officers. Does it


surprise you, is it unusual that there are still blazes burning in


the centre of that block? No, clearly, what is remarkable is that


firefighters throughout that incident were on upper floors,


trying to rescue people, large numbers of people have been rescued,


horrendous loss of life, the work that firefighters do, rescuing large


numbers of people, is incredible. They are at the stage now, the final


stages of eliminating the last bits of fire, smoke, heat, the safety of


the building, the safety of the cruise becomes paramount as well.


There have been photographs of firefighters clearly very


emotionally affected by what they saw. Has that happened to you?


Firefighters have ways of dealing with these sorts of incidences.


There is a humour, a camaraderie, all of that plays a role. I suspect


every firefighter will have things that will stick with them for the


rest of their lives, incidents they have been to, particular horrors


they have seen. There is a greater awareness than when I was around and


Ronnie was around about mental health issues. There are better


counselling services than there was 20 years ago, or more. That is


something that great deal more effort needs to be put into in this


day and age. This stay put policy, to allow firefighters to get up


stairwells, so they are not impeded by people trying to get out in a


situation like that, does that stay put policy have to be reviewed,


after what happened at Grenfell Tower? It was reviewed after 2009,


Lakanal House, the inquest was 2013. It is a very difficult one. The


building, its fabric, its protection, is designed for people


to stay in their flats, for one hour, at least, you would expect the


flat not to be penetrated, you would expect the escape route of the


integral and people can escape safely, something obviously did not


their right here. Whether it was there were failings in the escape


route facilities, penetrations into the fire resistance...


There has been talk about the cladding and the effect of the


cladding on the building. Basically, London building acts were amended in


1986, and they were overtaken by the building regulations for the rest of


the UK - London falling in line with the rest of the UK. The outside wall


of a building, this building, would have hard and our's resistance under


the London building act. When it was replaced by the building


regulations, the building regulations only allow - or do allow


a surface which is a much weaker provision of fire resistance. In


fact, it is no fire as a stance on the outside. We have to revisit


that. Can I just interrupt? I am a layperson, I have no experience of


fire safety, but you are telling me that it is OK for the outside of a


building, the exterior of a building, to be a bit fire


resistant, but the whole thing doesn't have to be fire assistant,


is that what you are saying to me? That is right, yes. I don't


understand it. A building close by not to be affected by a fire in that


building, not for this building to be affected by a fire spreading


upwards and internally. So it really came out of Lakanal, but the coroner


ruled that was the appropriate legislation at the time, so it


complied. But what we have said, four years since the Lakanal House


fire, we have been saying successfully, successively sorry,


two ministers over the period of four years, to say we need to review


the regulations. What response have you had, if you have said it to four


ministers? Three ministers over four years, they say they are looking at


it. Fire deaths have gone down, and while there has been an opt in this


year, generally fire safety is a good news, but you get something


like this, you got a warning with Lakanal, and we have said you must


take steps. I mean, the coroner said we should be looking at automatic


fire sprinkler protection in buildings. 4000 high-rise flats in


the United Kingdom. 4000 tower blocks. Without sprinklers. That is


a scandal. If it was new, they would be installed? Yes, but the


regulations are for new buildings, or major refurbishments. But we need


to do a revisit, we have asked the ministers, they are saying, yes, we


are still looking at it. In fact, Gavin Barwell was about to meet the


all-party group. The former housing minister lost his job at the


election and has been made to me's chief of staff. Once the election


was announced, he had to say whether he was going to agree, we will now


revisit the regulations, that might have been what he was going to say.


Perhaps he will qualify that. We Avastin for an interview, so far


without success. Matt Wrack, you are from the Fire Brigades Union, some


are linking the closure of ten fire stations with the loss of 552 jobs,


made by the former Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, with what happened at


Grenfell Tower. You, however, are very cautious about making that


link, as I understand it. We have still got an incident going on,


there are still people missing, still people doing their job, and I


think we need to concentrate on that. I want to separate the two


issues at this stage, the whole thing needs to be investigated, and


clearly we were opposed to those reductions, we think they made


London is less safe. Whether it has had a direct impact on this incident


I cannot stay at this stage. In terms of this incident, echoing


Ronnie's point, the question arises, how can it even happen? We will find


out this was an avoidable tragedy, and that is horrifying in a wealthy


country, that this can happen. Why do you think we will find out it was


avoidable? As Ronnie has just explained, there is huge amount of


expertise around buildings, how they react in fires, how you can detect


them, and what needs to be put in place. Within the Fire Service,


there is a huge amount of expertise about how you deal with buyers when


they happen. If those are put together, we can significantly


reduce the risk to residents living in accommodation like that.


Something has gone horrifyingly wrong for us to be standing here


today. Our reporter spoke to the architect of Grenfell Tower, who


said it was in Cumbria and support to him that the fire spread in the


way it did. -- who said it was incomprehensible to him that the


fire spread in the way it did. What should the mayor do? He has said


that this needs to be thoroughly investigated. There is a huge amount


of support, fantastic community solidarity which is great to see,


and a whole estate has been... It is very eerie over there, the whole


state has been evacuated. People need immediate support, so the


authorities, the mayor need to do that. In terms of the incident, I


think this has to be very thoroughly addressed, and all interested


parties, including Ronnie and his colleagues, ourselves, community


groups, people who have lived there, have copyright to ask very


challenging questions about why this happened. Could it have been


foreseen? Could it have been prevented? Matt Wrack, general


secretary of the Fire Brigades Union, and Ronnie King, chair of the


all-party fire and safety rescue group. Good morning, it is 10:36, I


mentioned those patients who are continuing to be treated in


hospital, many of them still in a critical condition. We can talk to


Tulip Mazumdar, who is outside St Mary's Hospital, what is the latest


from there? Well, we have been given an update from NHS England, who have


been letting us note the situation of the patients in the five London


hospitals that are still caring for patients from this dreadful buyer.


37 patients are still receiving hospital treatment. -- this dreadful


fire. 17 are still in critical care. I can give you a breakdown here


there are the most number of patients being treated, 11, three of


which are in critical care. King's College Hospital, not far from here,


ten patients, six of them in critical care. Chelsea and


Westminster is treating nine patients, seven of them are in


critical care. The Royal Free was looking after six patients, one of


them is in critical care. And guys and Saint Thomas's is looking after


one patient, and that patient is not in critical care. So clearly,


doctors and nurses, all the medics here and in those other four


hospitals, working very hard from overnight on Tuesday into Wednesday,


and all day yesterday as well as today. This has been a really


desperate situation for many people who have been coming and looking for


family. There is still a lot of confusion. The doctors here have


been treating patients mainly for smoke inhalation, so patients will


be getting oxygen, some of them, we understand, in other hospitals, are


being put and general anaesthetic so they can be treated as comfortably


as possible. But really, at this point, time is ticking now to find


more people. Like I said, families have been coming here desperate to


find out if their family members are here, desperately searching, but as


time goes on, it is becoming less likely that people will be coming in


for treatment. And I think you have managed to speak to a couple of


people as they have been going into the hospital. Yes, Victoria, it has


just been a really harrowing morning, I have to say. I mean, I


was here yesterday as well, and we saw families coming in, there was a


man just behind me at the entrance, and he was shouting, he was saying,


we are not getting any information, I don't know where my loved ones


are. Today, similar scenes, but really much more difficult, there


was a family that just parked up over there, we saw them leaving the


hospital, a woman was wailing, she was so upset. She was being


comforted by other family members. We heard her, before we saw her, and


her screams were so chilling. We went over, and we ask that they were


OK, how they were as a family, whether they had received any


information. They were asking us if we had received any information, and


they claim to us that they were looking for a mother, the mother's


name is Burkit Haftom, they were looking for her and her son,


12-year-old Birok Haftom, they were desperately searching for them. They


have gone from hospital to hospital, it seems that St Mary's were the


last hospital they had been to, and they were told by police, if your


family members are not here or at the other hospitals, if you have not


heard from them so far, then I am afraid you have to assume the worst,


that they were in that building. I saw them when they had me that


realisation, that they are not here, this was the last place they could


have been, and they are not here. The look on their faces, the other


devastation, they were so upset. They didn't know what to do, they


said to me, can you help us? Is there anything I could do, I said I


would say their names on BBC News, Burkit Haftom is the mother, the


12-year-old son is Birok Haftom. You know, everybody would be out looking


for them, and family are already, but as time goes on, we are now


several hours, you know, overnight, all of yesterday, overnight today,


if those family members have not turned up, the police have advised


that chances are they are in that building. And coming to that


realisation has clearly been extremely difficult for them, and


they are being that by their family. They drove away just without


knowledge that they didn't actually know where they were going what they


were going to do. I also managed to a lady, also a friend of that


family, she was here seeing her friend Helen and their 12-year-old


daughter, who is in intensive care. She was said to be extremely unwell,


and I spoke to a friend of her mother's earlier, her name is Chesmi


Rodrigo. She is in I -- ICU, she doesn't know not. We have just seen


her extended family that you have gone to see, just utterly


distraught. How are you? How is the community? I don't know, really, I


don't know what to say, you know, I am really stressed, really


disappointed, I couldn't believe what happened to them. I saw them


yesterday, so I couldn't believe, it was like a dream, you know? So I


really can't believe these things. We have all seen the pictures, for


you, this is so close to home, how were you last night? Were you able


to sleep? No, I couldn't sleep, actually, I have two children, so I


couldn't sleep, I was crying at the same time, one o'clock, so I was


crying, screaming, in my house, you know? Even my children, then we came


around at three o'clock new building, so we found Helen over


there around four o'clock. That is very, very upsetting. I have just


been looking at my timeline on Twitter, a number of you are


unpressed by the fact that he may, the Prime Minister, is here in a


private capacity. That simply means that cameras are not allowed there.


We are told that she has met residents and firefighters. She left


at about 10:20, having arrived just before ten o'clock. Caroline says,


the Prime Minister makes a private visit, what a joke, total lack of


respect for those involved. Another, this is from Nusat, disgusting that


the Prime Minister is visiting in private, what is the point? A number


of you would like to praise the firefighters, you have messaged me


on Twitter to say what they have done is absolutely astonishing.


Thank you for those, you can use the hashtag #VictoriaLIVE if you want to


get in touch. I'm going to introduce you to a QC, Joe, nice to talk to


you, tell us why you are here. A lot of people are going to have


complicated problems to sort out, problems today, where are people


going to live, how are people going to survive, what about your


employment, your job? What is your employer going to say? What about


people who haven't got insurance? What about that period of time


before your insurers pay out? Those are all really complicated problems,


and there is something that lawyers - and stressful - and there is


something that lawyers can do to help with those problems. And then


tomorrow, you know, people are going to start to wonder about how they


put their lives back together, and there is also something, a small


thing, that lawyers can do to help that process. Making sure that legal


accountability, moral accountability rests where it should.


I'm going to Paul's you there, you are not an ambulance chaser... ? Me,


hundreds of other lawyers, at the North Kensington law centre, housing


lawyers, employment lawyers, personal injury lawyers, people want


to help. -- I'm going to pause you there. There is a role for the law,


people will not be able to find accountability without the help of


lawyers, many will want to do it for free because this... They recognise


this is... It is very difficult to be here and not feel very upset


about it all. If people would like your help, how should they get in


touch with you, you are from the Good Law Project and the North


Kensington law centre. The first thing to be done, triage, people


need to have their particular problems broken down for them.


Housing problem, employment problem, insurance issue, so far as I can see


at the moment, people doing that job best of all are the North Kensington


law centre, and I have tweeted out their contact details. After this, I


am going to go there and see what help they need from lawyers. Then I


will get in touch with all the lawyers I speak with and tell them


that if you want to be able to help, that is the best way. In the longer


term, the problems about accountability, the lessons to be


learned, the law has some part to play, but you have to hope that the


government recognises the problem, and has a public enquiry. So that


this never happens again. Thank you very much for joining us.


This place is much busier than when we first came on error, I am going


to take a look around, I have not done that for a while, inside the


basketball court, right next to the Westway Sports Centre, there were


hundreds of bags and now dozens of volunteers, tidying through those


donations. Trying to get them in some sort of order. And here,


volunteers arriving to either sign in or, if they have enough


volunteers, to leave a name and number to be contacted, tonight,


tomorrow, the weekend, that is where they are leaving contact details,


people saying, I want to help, I want to do something, call on me at


any point. Let me introduce you to some or residence. Emily, do come


in. I'm Victoria, nice to see you. And Amina, I beg your pardon, it is


my writing! Sorry. I'm Victoria, nice to meet you. Do come in. Lovely


to meet you. I have a microphone, just one between us. How are you


today? Upset. Yeah, upset. Not well, angry, angry. Very angry. Yeah, very


angry. What's happened is disgusting. It could have been


prevented, it could have been prevented. You know, you have got


all them innocent people that have died, that are seriously ill in


hospital, and it is a joke, it is a joke. Like I said, a lot more could


have been done, a lot more could have been done. What do you think


could have been done? The housing association, they could have done a


lot more. The management organisation who ran it... Yeah, to


be quite honest, TMO, they do not care about their tenants whatsoever.


I know people that are in TMO, such as my daughter, and I know this is


irrelevant to what has happened, but... I'm going to Paul's you, I


want to talk about the people of Grenfell Tower, if I may. My


anger... You can ask him, and then come back. We have been let down by


the council. The tenant management organisation, where are they?


Everyone is pulling together, it is the community, I have not seen


anyone! I have not seen any support... I live directly opposite.


Saw I it... I smell the fire, 12:30am, I came out, and I can


literally see people in the windows, banging, children screaming. I have


heard grown men literally on fire, banging at the windows until the


windows were full of smoke. Standing there, I cannot do anything. Even


until now, I have not seen any kind of support will stop everyone is


trying to get a story and understand what is going on, but people feel


let down. We don't seem to have that support. We don't seem to get any


feedback from the council, where are they? For what it's worth, for what


it's worth, I saw the council leader, yesterday morning, first


thing, I saw a clip of one of the guys who runs the particular


management organisation. I saw a clip of him on the news. If he came


here, what would you say to him? To be honest, I am a tenant, whenever


there is a repair, whenever there is something, it is always


cost-cutting, always a delay, it is hogwash, we have heard it all


before. Where do you go? They keep people waiting. So many families


have not even been told there is missing. I have family there, we


don't know where they are, very close friends, my wife has friends


there, relatives... I know one family, five kids and the mother are


missing. Five children! On the 22nd, 21st floor. Ten and under. My


daughter goes to a school down the road, Oxford Garden School... Half


the class...! Sermon each order not in, so money children unaccounted


for. -- so many children not in. It should be at schools as well. Even


the teachers dealing with this, massive impact, for them, for the


children... My daughter's best friend, we know, gone. They went in


together only a couple of days ago. This is sad and shocking. My anger


is totally different, my anger... I was here since the blaze happened,


and I was on... On the side of the building, I was told there was only


a few police officers, don't get me wrong, I don't have problems with


police officers, the only police officers were there, 40 minutes


later, came more police officers. Let me get that straight. I don't


know about the building, personally I don't know nobody from that block,


maybe a friend of a friend, I know my son's friends, they are all dead,


I don't have a personal contact. I don't have a problem with the


structure of the building, I don't know about that, but when I was


there yesterday, and what I have seen, I was there on the bridge, to


the building, I told people to jump, to get off, to put the kids throw


the kids, wanted to get mattresses... Police were pushing us


away, fathers were coming from the prayer, they had to see their


children and their wives on the window, hopeless, can do anything.


We said, it is burning on the side, just starting, get the people of


that side of the building. Police were saying, don't, go away, we are


dealing with this. They pushed us from the bridge, all the way down,


we ran around to the car wash, we have seen the fire, coming upwards,


and then gradually, going on the roof, by then, there was more time


that people could get off. Lease offices and parents on the


telephone, they have been told stay in your property. -- police


officers. They were told to stay in the property. It is dangerous?


Sorry, it was not, my iPhone does not lie about the timing. They had


time to escape, they were on the windows screaming and shouting, the


fire happened from the outside in. It did not happen from the inside


out, and the outside in, they have plenty of time. The firemen came two


hours later, could not even park their car anyway to get access


through, so they came all the way through, but their car there. And


then they took the water by the time they did that, for 20 5am, and I had


them recorded. Before that, 2am, we saw all the children crying,


shouting, screaming, because we were hopeless. Like a piece of paper,


when you burn it from one side to the other, that is exactly what we


saw happen to them full. One minute they were there, the next minute


they were gone. My next-door neighbour works as a fire crews man,


she said they have not confirmed that 50 children are dead but more


than 50 children are dead. More than 100 bodies are dead. Look at that


building, are you telling me 12 people?! The police... In the


beginning, I was there with the police officers, they only had one


staircase one! Hands shaking, one? I am not related to them, I don't know


them, I don't care if they are juries, Muslim, Christian, you see


someone burning, the first thing you want to do is to go and grab them.


More Muslims are feeling that this is a revenge. I'm telling you how I


feel. Revenge for what? London Bridge and stuff like that, they are


going to think this is a revenge, I am telling you how people feel.


People will not say what they are feeling because they are scared. I


don't have any relation. I cannot tell you how I feel. We have a very


short amount of time left. Friends missing, that is what I am bringing


him in. You have friends missing. How are you? I'm hoping for the


best. People searching. Still no trace. So much love and positivity


and strength... Being directed to you from around the country right


now. Thank you so much. And cute. Thank you for speaking with us.


Thank you, we appreciate it. A message from Kerrygold on


Facebook, as a high-rise tenant I'm deeply troubled, we do not get


listened to when we raise concerns. Also, the block is due to have an


upgrade on the outside to make it look appealing, but these flats are


tiny and severely overcrowded, not just with residents but with


possessions, because there is no storage, it is a fire risk and they


don't care. They only want to paper over problems with housing with


external makeovers. So many people have needlessly died at Grenfell


Tower, it is criminal. Let's bring you this police conference. Due to


the nature of the content in the building and


some areas that are