28/06/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

It was two weeks ago that Grenfell Tower here

in North Kensington caught fire and continued to burn.

Two weeks ago at this time we brought you extraordinary

stories of survival, and devastating stories

of those who didn't make it out of the tower block.

On that day there was shock, horror, confusion, grief.

A fortnight on, we still don't know how many people died,

and many who managed to escape are yet to be rehoused

and are living in hotel rooms or on friend's sofas,

Today we're back here in North Kensington to catch up

with some of those we first met on that Wednesday, to bring you more

remarkable stories of those who escaped and to find out really,

We're broadcasting this morning from the Maxilla Centre -

it's just across the road from Grenfell Tower.

There are various things I want to show you. This wall, which I'm just

walking up to now is called the Questions Wall. On here, people have

written, "Where is the money going? ?" "When will it stop, people over

profit? Why give everyone this type of suffering. Stop. Never forgotten.

Justice for Grenfell. Real numbers 79? No way. So many questions on

this wall as you walk into the social club. Over here, this is a

mural that's being painted. Mark is the chap who has been painting it.

This is what's called Wall Of Evidence. I don't know if you can

see the words, "The truth will not be hidden, the public's public

inquest. Facts." When the painting is finished here, residents who

escaped from the tower that night, who witnessed what happened, are

being encouraged to write their first hand accounts on here. To take

ownership of what happened because some people feel so much distrust

now when it comes to the authorities.

Let's me take you inside the social club which actually opened that

night, 2am in the morning. The owner opened it providing teas and coffees

for anybody who needed to come in here for some respite. And then for

two weeks effectively it has been a donation centre. Or an unofficial

rescue centre. Joe told me they had 4700 boxes of donations over the

last two weeks and 100 to 120 volunteers every day coming in here

and working. He showed me footage. He filmed the whole room. It was

full of boxes. No help from the council, he said, to sort it out.

They had to do it. He is a painter and decorator by day. He has not

been doing that. He has been helping out. I have got residents and people

we met two weeks ago who we are going to catch up with now.

We spoke to him on this programme two weeks ago as he described how

he escaped from the fourth floor with his wife and his one-year-old

Oluwaseun Talabi escaped from the 14th floor with his girlfriend

Hello. Thank you very much for coming on our programme today.

Omar Alhajali escaped from the fourteenth floor.

He lost his brother Mohammad in the fire.

He's here with his other brother Hashem Alhajali.

We have local residents. People who grew up here and people who have

helped in the last two weeks. Mahad tell our audience how you're

doing. I don't know. We're still displaced. We used to have missing

people. We used to have no answers. I don't know how I feel. There is no

particular word that I can use to to describe how I'm feeling. Where are

you and your wife living? We are moving from place to place, from

house-to-house, family members, friends, wherever we can find

really. We're obviously causing a disturbance wherever we go because

we're unsettled and the kids are obviously making noise and some of

the neighbours are not used to it so these are the kinds of things that

are affecting wherever we go. Have you been offered help from the

council? No. They have offered you nothing? They have offered us

high-rise towers and I've expressed to them that we're petrified,

traumatised and so are the kids because my oldest boy is aware of

the situation in the sense whenever he sees the building he is aware of

what happened and he knows his home is no longer there. So, they haven't

offered us any suitable accommodation considering the

situation that we have been in. They haven't offered us anything. You

have been under unbelievable stress in the last two weeks. Can you give

our audience a little insight into the kind of things you're being

directed to do, into the kind of things you want to do? Sorry, can

you repeat that again? You told me earlier people keep saying to you,

you need a passport. That doesn't seem a priority to you right now.

No. Tell us what your priority is. My first and fore most priority is

to put a roof, a suitable accommodation over my children and

my wife's head. Upon doing that, I will then seek the medical attention

that we need. But it seems the council has been dragging us for the

last two weeks and I have to start rearranging my priorities. I have to

get medical attention for my wife and kids. They are showing reaction

and stress, their health is deteriorating. You mean mentally?

Physically and mentally. All of our health is deteriorating by the day

and it is no fault, but the council's or the local authority

because of lack of management and organisation. What do you think of

the way they've helped or not helped? They haven't helped. They

have been insensitive to the situation. They have not provided

answers. They have not provided to anyone know, any form of suitable

accommodation. So, there's nothing to say. We're still out here

displaced. We have missing family, friends and neighbours and we still

have no answers two weeks in. Do you feel as though you're dignity

is being stripped from you? Our dignity is all we have and our

dignity will never be stripped off us, but they're trying to. They're

trying to separate the survivors. They're trying to cause, put a roof

between the survivors who are trying to organise themselves, but all of

us are traumatised, we're trying to find some sense of the

unorganisation to have one voice, but the authorities are doing their

best to quiet us down. What did you say, quieten you down? They are

trying to silence us. Why do you feel that? I can tell. I can just

feel it. They are trying to silence us. But it's not going to work

though. It's not going to work. That night that you escaped, your flat

was a place where firefighters brought other residents... Yeah. And

you didn't all make it out of there? Yeah. His brother didn't make it

out. Mohamed was brought to your flat, was he? With his brother. Yes,

they moved us to his flat. An old man as well. We were waiting for

long there, all of us, trying to support us. They said, "Don't worry.

Don't worry." But we were waiting and waiting and no one came until

the last minute. This man had to pull me back. I was dangling back

from the window. This man and his brother had to pull me back in. I

was trying to escape from the window with my little child. If I looked

down, he could have dropped. This man and his brother had to pull me

back into the flat. He tried to jump for his daughter. But I said this is

not a good idea. Don't do it. Today is the first time you have met since

then, is that correct? Yes, after what happened, today is the first

time. Tell our audience about it. When I see him, I remember

everything. Not only now, every night to be honest. I can't sleep

well. I always remember. I don't think I can forget. Can any of you

sleep? No. I'm physically drained. Angry, I don't know, I don't know

anymore. It's hard to sleep. I sleep for two hours and I wake up and then

gi to bed about six and eight again. So yeah this. Is from the fire.

Where are you living now? A hotel. How is it? It's better than being in

a hostel. Hospital, it is better than being in the hospital, but it

is not better than being in your own house.

Our reporter Ashley John Baptiste has spent some time with you Olu

over the last week - as you visited the tower

again and tried to begin to repair your life -

it's an upsetting watch - and lasts around 9 minutes.

I didn't know she was one of the people that's missing.

We would always chat when we would bump into each other.

Him and his sister, very respectable.

A lot of people are angry about him as well.

Because everybody loved him, the whole community loved him.

So I have no idea how this is affecting you.

I don't know if it's possible to get as close

I just want to see what I've come up from.

Yeah, I want to get as close as possible.

It's not as strong as that night, but it brings back the memories.

So it's the other side, I tied a cloth, the bedroom

was on the other side, that's where I tied the cloth.

It looks like something out of Syria.

Like, I guarantee there's dead bodies in there right now.

I feel like I can even get closer, I feel like I even want to walk

inside, that's how bad it is, I feel like I actually

want to walk inside, take that step again.

I think it would make me happy if I could go in there.

He and his family have been staying at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital

since the fire but rebuilding their lives is about more

than just finding a new home, it is about starting again.

Today, they are trying to sort out the essentials.

partner did not want us to show her on camera.

So we are on the way to the Venture centre,

it is a place that someone has given us a number that we can

After that we are on our way to the Harrow Club.

It is another organisation that has been set up.

They told me they've got a box of clothes for my daughter

We're going to need to go to the Westway Centre

to sort out our passports, because the Red Cross

are there and they said that if we just bring passport photos,

they will fast-track us and we will be able

to get our passports by tomorrow because we have no ID.

Right now we feel like we are just a number, we are floating around,

living in a hospital, it is going to be a long process

So that it is like the start of getting your identity

Local community centres and volunteers have been helping

residents with money, clothes and food.

Can you just explain why you have come to the centre,

We've come to get some help, from the people that have donated

money, so we just try to get help from them.

Is this your money from your account?

You're going to your account to get money to help people out?

We are having to make it up as we go along because there

I don't want to have to keep going back for money.

I'm happy that people are looking to help us

but I'm a hard-working guy, all of us in my family work hard,

we make our own money, we don't want to feel

Thank you so much, thank you very much.

We're going to take passport photographs for my passport.

This is the Westway Centre, it has become a key hub of support,

helping survivors with their many needs including helping

More than just the practical help, it is the emotional support

It's become a place where locals come, share stories,

Thank you, thank you so much, I appreciate it,

I just feel like I saved my family, I did what I have to do.

We die together or we come out together, that's just it.

Mahad is a fellow survivor, he has been put up in

We could not film in the hotel, but Mahad did take us inside,

a small square room, with just enough space

A husband and a wife and two kids in there.

I have never seen a toilet that small before.

My two kids and my wife and I cannot all four of us fit in this property.

Even this temporary accommodation that has been given to us

in the hotel is too small, crowded, claustrophobic.

And if we want hot water, we have to get it from the toilet.

We are deteriorating, mentally and physically deteriorating.

We were living happy lives, businessmen, businesswomen, workers,

The council, we haven't heard anything from them.

They couldn't give us a straight answer.

I want a nice house, I don't even need a new house, I don't want to...

Yeah, I don't want to be in a place where they pay ?2 extra on bread.

It might be nice for some people, that's fine for them.

It is crazy to think that had Olu not run down

from the 14th floor at Grenfell, he would not be here

with his daughter, we would not have this sight of a father

I've hung out with you for a bit now.

You're clearly going to have a bit of trauma.

How do you feel, when you're sleeping in your bed,

and all you can see in bed is dead people?

I feel like, when you have to leave the TV on, so you can see a bit

of light when you're sleeping, so you don't have to think

about that little boy who died in your room.

You've got to be in my shoes to understand what I'm saying,

you'll never understand what I'm saying.

We are here in North Kensington in the social club, with residents,

people who got out of the tower two weeks ago. People told us that are

not want to be forgotten, they have so many questions. They do not

necessarily feel people working there hardest to try to answer those

questions. We have residents here as well. There was something your wife

said that struck me, amongst many things. She was trying to get her

identity back. Extreme what that means. We lost everything. All our

identity, drivers license, passport, everything. You feel like you are

just a number. You want to feel human again. That is what she meant.

I wonder what you are thinking now and feeling now. Cannot really feel

or think anything. Every part of your life is suspended. People who

work cannot work, because you do not know if you will be in the same

hotel that night, you get a call from the council, they ask what time

you are checking out, you ring, nobody seems to know what is going

on, we are expected to chase things, phone this, do that. They cannot get

a single thing right. The only activity I have seen on the estate

were partners and painters. They are working on the cosmetics yet again,

it was cosmetics that got us into this problem. People in my half of

the blog cannot access our houses, they have had to leave the doors

open, but have given us these fobs, they do not work, they told us they

would work from yesterday. The doors are shut, people who cannot get in

cannot get in unless somebody can let them in. It is neighbours

relying on neighbours, and it is not right. I worked with the action

group. I would not have considered myself a member, because I was not

in the tower, but since this happened, I consider myself a

member, and everyone else does here as well. We spoke to you two weeks

ago, what are you thinking? We have been through a mad situation, there

has been a nonstop procession of media and people who claim they want

to pay their respects from outside the areas, talking loudly in the

street. The wounds are open. We have just spoken about this for the last

two weeks. Realistically, the Council and TM only to stop treating

it like a box ticking activity. How are you housing people in high rise

apartments? People are being thrown out of their hotel is with hardly

any notice, not being told where the next place will be. The people that

are doing the most, I work with some of the volunteers, they have their

own jobs and families to feed, but based and 22 hours a day join to

make sure that they are helping the victims, because the tab -- the

council and the TM oak or not responding quickly enough. Listening

to everybody else, we not even at stage. We are being forced to move

on to the next stage of thinking weight you will be free home, do you

want to go back, whatever it is, and we have not got verification on who

is missing, who is confirmed. We have not even been able to mourn the

people we have lost. We are in a process of... It is very hard when

you do not say goodbye to somebody, but it is worse when you do not know

if you should say goodbye. You are doing a lot of presumptions. The

data that is going out, when it is false, it is hard to take in,

because everyone else knows the real number, and it is nowhere near 79.

Triple it, quadruple it, maybe. On top of it, it is insulting, as they

think our IQ is... How can you not expect it to be higher, when it has

affected so many people? I have lost people, people on the street have

lost people, you add these numbers up, it is way beyond. If we cannot

go beyond that yet, I cannot think about housing. To survive, you need

to continue and think about where your money is coming from. My work

is in the community, I have flipped on that side, but one day I might

wake up and think, I need to get my voice heard, and halfway through the

day I am telling everyone, I cannot do this. My mum says, what time do

we have to be here? My aunt says, I am in the Westway, and they are not.

You cannot be everywhere at once, I have to focus on one thing, so I

have to put my work aside. How long will that be for? I am not a

resident, I have worked with the residents in 2015, when they were

trying to ask given the refurbishment, and try to get a

response and not being able to get any response from the TMO or the

council. It is horrible, being back here, and it is horrible listening

to these stories again. It makes me very angry. It is the same but was

circumstances now. They are treating many more people much worse, people

of all model, this is very bad. We have said that it is from the

beginning, it has come to light for everybody watching on their screens,

but it has been happening for years, we fought for them not to take the

tower down, not to demolish our estate, but now they could have

taken the tower down and re-homed everyone, it taking so people's

lives. I do not know which fight would have been the stronger. Now we

are fighting to keep the rest of the fans, but people do not want to

leave the community, so you are left with a cemetery on your doorstep.

You grew up here. It is mad. People want answers and justice. We do not

want charity singles. Loads of people have said, they have raised

money, but I have been contacted by people who have said, do you know

any people that have been giving money? The money has been available,

people have raised money, but the people are not getting it. I have

been in contact with people in the area to make sure people are getting

cash, and I have had to send people a certain way. The media have

answers, they can tell us anything that absolves us of blame, I cannot

tell us how many people made it out, who is missing, who is not, the

things we want to know, but then they want to tell us about this

other stuff. We are not here to hear that. Have you received the one-off

payment, the emergency payment that the Government promised? We have

been advised not to claim the money. Because it would affect us in the

future. That is the advice we are getting. That is from local

solicitors? Yes, and the group. Charities are doing their best to

help us. The council and the Government messed up, they have to

deal with the consequences. The people feel like the money we are

getting from the charity will affect what they will get from the

Government. The charity is helping us, not the Government. The

suspicion is if you accept some money now, you will forfeit a bit

more in the future? When the public enquiry has worked itself through.

Which is not our own fault. This is negligence. It shouldn't affect what

the charities are doing for us. The charities are the ones helping the

most. The Government are not really helping. What about you? It's not

just in terms of finance, but also in terms of accommodation,

neighbours, community, family members, friends, are trying to

still take people in, but I for one cannot disclose where I'm staying

because it is one bedroom and I fear for the actual tenant's safety in

the future. When this dust settles down, I fear there will be a

backlash for anyone who stayed at someone else's house. You must

understand that all of us did not have the common fear for no reason.

The council, the TMO have been putting fear in their tenants in

terms of making sure that they don't get aid or assistance from the

neighbours or the community and if they do so, they will lose priority

in terms of housing. I have had celebrities. I have had radio

station members, I have had millionaires who are trying to offer

me personally and for my family a place of accommodation. If I had of

taken those steps up, if I had of taken that opportunity, not only

would I have left behind all those that are missing and all those that

are affected, but I have lost my rights and it is a doubty of care

that the council has to look after me. If you accept help from someone

else, the council can say you have got that help. You're not in the

queue anymore. It is just the charity and the churches and the

mosques give you ?3,000 then that ?3,000... You don't have to answer

this because it is a personal question. How are you surviving

financially from the charity, from charity? From mosques, charities,

churches, individuals, let's put emphasise on that, individuals and

people are approaching us and like this gentleman said, we know for

instance, I feel that I'm OK with my family in terms of finance and that

we can now share with our neighbours, share with our friends.

So for instance when I have had the information not to sign anymore

paperwork from the Joseph round tee foundation in terms of money because

it could affect your compensation in the future. I informed Olly and most

of the survivors are prepared to give you whatever you may need and

that we are all here as one family and that the community and the

church and the mosques and individuals are there for us. OK. I

work in construction. They offered me a place to stay for six months

for free in Elephant Castle, but I turned it down. My daughter goes to

school around here. She won't travel from Elephant Castle down here. We

are not taking it. I mean that offer from your employers, that's coming

from the right place, isn't it, even though it didn't work for you, it is

because they want to help. Yes. We will talk much more. Honestly, we

have got so much time and that's why we're here. You're OK talking to us.

Of course. The only way we're getting anything done is by shaming

the council. The only way I managed to speak to the Director of Finance

at Kensington and Chelsea, the way I did that, I bluffed my way on the

switchboard by friending to be the former leader of the Conservative

group and boy was he shocked when he got through to me. I explained to

him who I was. I did express my outage on behalf of myself and

fellow residents at the time. He promised he would have money out.

Even the ?500 that's been promised for people who didn't live in the

tower, but lived in the blocks affected, they are not getting that

at the moment. I'm sick of having to argue with staff and they are saying

people who are single are only entitled to ?260. I said when did

this policy come in? Who wrote it? Where is it written down? We can't

tell you. We will come back, Joe, we have got more time. Honestly, we

have. That's why we're here. We will talk more and we have got some

politicians that we will talk to later and potentially we are talking

to the Housing Minister as well, potentially, the Government's

Housing Minister at 10.30am. Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news. Labour is to force a vote

on an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for an end to cuts

in the police and The party is also demanding

an end to the 1% cap The Conservatives say only

they will deliver the economy needed to properly fund the

emergency services. Prosecutors will announce this

morning whether anyone will be charged with criminal offences

in relation to the Hillsborough The families of the

victims will gather 96 Liverpool fans died

when the terraces at the Sheffield ground became overcrowded

during the 1989 FA cup semi-final. Computer systems around the world

have been hit by a major cyber-attack affecting banks,

retailers, energy firms The companies have been

told their computers will remain Experts who have examined the code

say it's more sophisticated than the virus used in a global

attack last month, More questions have been raised

about the refurbishment This programme has learned

the specifications for the work were changed, and cheaper more

flammable cladding The BBC has also learned that

London Fire Brigade had warned all 33 of the area's councils

about potential risks of external cladding on tower

blocks the month before. Sinn Fein has accused

the Democratic Unionist Party of failing to give any ground

in talks to restore devolved They say there had been no movement

on the rights of Irish speakers But the DUP has insisted it has no

red lines and accused Sinn Fein of being involved

in a high-wire act. The deadline for reaching a deal

is tomorrow afternoon. A study of public opinion suggests

that half the population think the Government should increase taxes and

increase spending on public services. The national centre for

social research report found there was a more traditional attitude to

national security with more than half wanting strong powers on

terror. That's a summary of

the latest BBC News. Here's some sport

now with Will Perry. A sense of deja-vu as England

were beaten once again England's under-21s

were denied a place Nathan Redmond's spot-kick

was saved as the Germans It follows winning shoot-outs

for Germans over England at the 1990 Investigators have been

told a plan for England to play a friendly in Thailand

to win backing for their 2018 World Cup bid was

"a form of bribery". A former FA Chairman made

the admission when interviewed during an inquiry into the 2018

and 2022 World Cup bids. England's women bounced back

from their opening defeat by India to make their highest

Women's World Cup total as they thrashed Pakistan by 107

runs with centuries from Nat Siver And five days ahead of Wimbledon,

not the weather we want to see, the likes of Novak Djokovic

try to get some last minute grass court preparation

in but the forecast at Easbourne is better today and the

covers are coming off. Thank you very much. Good morning.

We are in North Kensington. We have got residents behind us. We have got

Joe and Amanda and Simone and Lunar the dog. We have met up again with

Mahad Egal who was on our programme a couple of weeks ago.

We We're here because the people here tell us they don't want to be

forgotten and they have so many questions and they feel perhaps

they're being pushed in certain directions that they don't want to

be pushed in and they want to do things at their own pace, but with

the help from the authorities which they really, from what they have

said to us this morning, they do not feel that they are getting. You know

that the fire happened in the early hours of that Wednesday morning. It

took until Friday before the Prime Minister, Theresa May, met

residents. Talking again to people two weeks on.

BOOING Talking to people today two weeks

on, the response is still, it seems, pretty chaotic.

So many questions. Let me introduce some politicians.

We don't have a representative of the Government here today. Surprise.

We may later on in the programme. We may later on in the programme. We

will join the DUP! I don't know if that would help! I don't know with

that would help. John Healey is Labour's

housing spokesman. Emma Dent Coad is the local Labour

MP, and until recently She was elected to Parliament just a

month ago. And also with us is the Bishop

of Kensington, Graham Tomlin. Tony Devenish is the area's

Conservative Assembly Member. You will know that there is no one

here from Kensington and Chelsea broUnl. We have an empty chair for

them over there. We have phoned them a number of times in the last week.

They were unable to find us anyone today so hence that empty chair.

Where do you think we are two weeks on? I will start with you Emma as

the local MP. Well, it's a hell of a lot better than it was two weeks

ago, but there are still problems every day. I'm still hearing about

problems every day. There seems to be a terribly good system if they

come to me, I can pass them on to people who seem to be dealing with

them, but a lot of people I know who still aren't being looked after as

they should and it is appalling. It's no surprise to me at all that

you have an empty chair there. Having worked on the council for 11

years, the depth of incompetence is mind-boggling. Mind-boggling. You

know we're still holding them to account every single day. I think

you were on Kensington and Chelsea housing scrutiny committee, is that

what it was called, housing scrutiny committee which overseas safety

issues until a couple of years ago. Were you able to raise concerns

about Grenfell? That issue didn't come up when I was on the committee.

There were problems about the building's maintenance and there was

money set aside. There was a decision to refurbish which people

welcomed. They had no idea what the details were going to be, so that

wasn't my remit at that tile. As a minority party councillor, you don't

have much of a saismt you can ask questions, but you are not the

decision maker. I think you were a member of the tenant management

organisation, the Kensington and Chelsea management organisation when

the refurbishment was discussed. What kind of questions were raised

then? What concerns were raised then sth I was off the committee by then.

I came off in 2012, issues about the maintenance and the boilers breaking

down and leaky windows, has been discussed. I meant the tenant

organisation management? The same. I wasn't on the board at that time,

but it is not to say that people aren't accountable for decisions

made, but the accountability between the Connell and the TMO is far more

complicated than it should be frankly. People should stand up and

take responsibility. The person who signed the contract should have read

the contract and know what they were signing and if they didn't, that's

down to them. Tony Daffenish, you are the local

Conservative member for the area, what have you done to protect people

who live here? Well, there is three things I'd like to start by saying,

first of all, our thoughts are with the people who have been hurt,

injured and killed during this awful, awful incident, but since it

started, London councils of all political persuasions have got

together and there is a substantial team now of officers dealing with

this issue. Where are they? Do you answer the question? That's on

going. If the gentleman over there has any specific issues he wants

dealt with, he can write to me and I'm dealing directly... We have to

chase you once again. We have a team of officers dealing with these

issues. I should also stress it is an ongoing police investigation. I'm

not going to jump to conclusions. The Prime Minister said we will get

to the bottom of these issues, but it is a huge issue. We all know

that. I've got a lot to say on the genocide of things. I'm one of the

residents who was at Downing Street as well. What we need from you and

don't take this personally, we need you to talk to us like a human

being, not an MP. That's the problem right now because these scripted

answers is not doing what we need to hear. It's bigger than that right

now and it's a lot deeper than that. So if you're going to be asked a

question, have some decency to answer it as a human being,

otherwise there is no point in you being here.

APPLAUSE We are losing trust. We cannot have

cute sitting here, talking to us in that way, because we have lost trust

from everyone else. There has been a massive loss of trust. The Prime

Minister and the council leaders have said that, it is a terrible

incident, we have apologised, we will did he do to get to the bottom

of what happened. We have a team of people who fear. People died, people

burned. We have -- we need answers. We know that you know things that

you have been told not to tell us. A lot of these politicians seem to

have this PR status about them, it is all about fulfilling PR for their

office. Thank you for coming, because the media attention is

focused on the politicians and so on, and at the heart of it we are

forgetting the people that matter. They are the people that suffered.

In terms of the Government response, I know from being at the tower, to

this day, these agencies are the ones coming in at 9am and clocking

out at 5p, but we are eschewed beating urgent food and aid at 3am.

That is not correct. My officers work all weekend. You have not been

speaking to the hundred plus survivors I have been speaking to.

You have not heard the traumatising stories I have heard. You were not

there when one person was shipped off to a local hotel which was 15

stories tall after being pulled out of a burning tower. How pathetic.

Response? I will bring in John Healey, laser -- Labour's housing

spokesman. You were a housing minister in the last Labour

Government, do you know White House were clad when you were in office?

Somewhere clad for making the build for the flat is cheaper. Some were

clad as part of a big overhaul of a big investment we put in to upgrade

a lot of social housing, proper bathrooms, new kitchens, double

glazing. It was part of a number of things, but that is some time ago.

They have begun to be much clearer warnings about a system that is

failing. A system of building controls and checks, the clearest

warnings were in the commonest reports of four years ago to

Government. There were warnings during the last Labour Government

from 2000. The clearest came after two other fatal fires in London and

Southampton. This is a failure of the current system. My priority and

why I am back here again is first of all to support Emma, the new local

Labour MP who has been working really hard to try to make sure that

some of what you are not getting, you are getting, and second, we are

being told things in Parliament about the information that you are

getting, the financial assistance you are getting, the promise of free

housing within three weeks, the fact that we have been told that every

family has got an individual keyword, and then I am told by other

people that they may have had a letter but they have not met them. I

have some more questions. Before we can move on into this issue of

making sure that people are getting help, the basic fundamentals are not

being done. We have not been given any form of structural support to

gather all residents from the tower block together. If the basics are

not in place, what are the main basics that we are being told are in

place but you think they are not? The information on the Government

website matches the information that is on the Grenfell website. Because

they do not. The Government website makes more promises. It says anyone

over 18 in any of the tower flats is entitled to a ?500 payment. There is

no mention of that in the RBKC website. We are meant to chase, we

are meant to come down to Westway, from where ever you have been

placed, make your own way down, the only people who are helping us are

the charities. I attended a meeting at Kensington and Chelsea College,

council staff promised they would be there to listen to local charities

and hear how they could help coordinate the efforts, but nobody

turned up. The precious snowflakes felt it was too risky for them to

come into the area, even though nobody knew they were coming. The

council went AWOL immediately afterwards. They still are. That is

why the Government has had to step in. I am going down to the Westway

with Emma in a minute, is that the point you are supposed to be able to

go to to get information? Where do you go? Apart from websites? To get

the information you need, the help you need? And a plan for what is

going to happen, where do you go for that? Bring all of us together that

survived and ask what we did. Nobody has put us together. Nobody has put

the survivors together. They should ask, what can we do for you? White

are you getting messages at Parliament? Why are you not hear

doing the nitty-gritty when this is your country to be running? This is

your mess, this is your civilians, your citizens. These are people who

elected you. You need to say, look, we do not even have a single help.

You have not even put the survivors together. We organised that through

charities, church and mosques, the community. They were asking on the

road, who is a survivor? Not only did we survive the tragedy, watched

the tragedy, we had our details used by criminals, just like the

criminals from housing, to get the funds that are entitled to us. These

colour wristbands that could be forwarded by anyone. We were

approached by police and CID, telling me to calm down when I am

asking for a copy of the documents I signed when I was traumatised. I

said, I am here demanding the paperwork I have signed the week I

was traumatised, just to see a copy of it, or at least give me some idea

of what I have done, because I have no idea. They were being very hard

about it, negative. Thank you very much, I will bring in the Bishop of

Kensington in a moment. I want to speak to all of you. I want to speak

to the moral compass of each one of you. I did not live in Grenfell, I

was in a nurse that front to help these people. There was nothing on

me obligated to help. When you come into the scenarios, asking the

questions about what is needed, you have a family, you have a mother, a

daughter, whatever, what would you think these people need? There is a

master pressure and in this area, this is not going to take a few

shows, a few meetings. This is years of work. I have been blessed by two

psychologists calling me, but that is because of my label as a nurse.

There are people who have not had anyone approach them and say, how

are you doing? Not, what is the basic? You know the basic. I am

asking you respectfully, check your moral compass. Forget your label of

MP, human. What does a human basically need? Then you will go

forward. Then you will gain the respect and understanding of these

people. I know you are delaying your next meeting. You are dead right. We

have a responsibility to make sure that what you need, the basic human

help to deal with this huge disruption and a lot of people who

have lost loved ones as well can get through this and get your lives back

together again. We all have a part to play in this. I am here because I

want to check what we are being told in Parliament is really happening.

The really important point is, this is not just about the first or

second week. When Labour was in Government before, I had to bang

heads together in Government to cut will donate the recovery from big

floods in 2007, different part of the country, people lost their

homes, some lost their lives. That went on for months and months and

months. The pub and did not go when the media moved on. That is what

will happen here. One of the things that ever will do as your MP is make

sure that does happen. It had better hurry up, because there are a lot of

words, and we two weeks on. You met Theresa May, what words of comfort

are you able to give as a Bishop and from the experience you have had of

talking to people in this community over the last two weeks? In those

conversations it was important for us, the first few days the council

was fairly invisible, the Government messages were confused, we needed to

do what we could to open up a conversation between local residents

and the Government. That is what we tried to do. I was not the leader, I

just enabled it to happen. We needed messages to get from people like

those gathered here today to be heard by people who had the power to

make some decisions about it. As we have seen and heard, the response

has been patchy, but you are right, what we need is not just words, but

action. We need a complete rebuilding of trust. That is the big

thing that has struck me. Listening to people here, this tragedy has not

just come into a vacuum, it is part of a long story of people in this

area of feeling that their voices have not been heard, that promises

have been made that have not been fulfilled, so there is a breakdown

of trust. Societies need trust, and trust needs to be rebuilt, and it

will take a long time. Barbara, go ahead. How come you people are only

hearing this two years down the road? I am sorry if you have not

seen me, I have been out every day. White are you only hearing it now?

That empty chair says a lot about Kensington and Chelsea Council. They

should hang their heads in shame, every single one of them. The leader

of the borough council, you bumped into him in the last few days. I

went to the Westway to get my logbook, and I bumped into him. I

approached him and said, evil man. For all of his interviews, he did

not act like he cared. He has done nothing for us. I said, you have to

come out more, should the people you care. And he is not here today. I

told him, you need to come out more, and he is not here. I told him he

did not care, and he has shown that he does not care. We will not have a

representative of the Government with us in the next hour of the

programme, I am also hearing. In 2014, when the original

renovation plan was approved, he issued a statement to the highest

band of council tax payers in this borough, due to a careful management

of finances, he issued a ?100 rebate to those residents. The same year he

scrimped over the additional ?5,000 it would have taken to make the

cladding at Grenfell safe. So where is he? That is the reason he is not

coming down. We have another hour, I promise we will be back with you. We

are here in Kensington. 20th of June, we are here to hear about

residents two weeks after dozens of people were killed and hundreds left

homeless after the high-rise fire that went through Grenfell so

rapidly. We have been asking people how they are doing.

We have missing family, friends and neighbours

and we still have no answers two weeks in.

They have offered us high-rise towers and I've expressed to them

Many feel let down by the authorities.

It's constantly we're expected to chase things.

Go here, phone this, queue here, do that.

I just found it really upsetting and it makes me very, very angry.

It's the same, but it's worse circumstances now, but they're

treating many more people much worse.

And the council is accused of a chaotic response.

Having worked on the council for 11 years the depth of incompetence is

absolutely mind-boggling. It's a terrible incident. We've apologised

and we will continue to get to the bottom of what actually happened. In

the meantime we have a substantial team of people who are actually

here. Forget your label of MP, human. What

does a human basically need? Then you will go forward. Then you will

gain the respect and understanding of these people.

APPLAUSE More questions are raised about the

cladding as this programme learns that during last year's

refurbishment of Grenfell Tower cheaper, more flammable cladding was

used. We will bring you the details in about half an hour's time.

OK. We have lost our connection to Victoria, we will bring you an

update on the news and we will be back to them in Kennington for more

on the Grenfell Tower disaster. Labour is to force a vote

on an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for an end to cuts

in the police and The party is also demanding

an end to the 1% cap The Conservatives say only

they will deliver the economy needed to properly fund the

emergency services. Prosecutors will announce this

morning whether anyone will be charged with criminal offences

in relation to the Hillsborough The families of the

victims will gather 96 Liverpool fans died

when the terraces at the Sheffield ground became overcrowded

during the 1989 FA Cup semi-final. Computer systems around the world

have been hit by a major cyber-attack affecting banks,

retailers, energy firms The companies have been

told their computers will remain Experts who have examined the code

say it's more sophisticated than the virus used in a global

attack last month, More questions have been raised

about the refurbishment This programme has learned

the specifications for the work were changed, and cheaper more

flammable cladding The BBC has also learned that

London Fire Brigade had warned all 33 of the area's councils

about potential risks of external cladding on tower

blocks the month before. A painless sticking plaster flu jab

has passed important safety tests on the trial in people. It has

microneedles on its adhesive side. Most of the 100 volunteers who took

part in the study said the patch was painless. Experts say it should help

more people get immunised including those who are scared of injections.

Further tests are needed to get the patch approved for widespread use.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30am.

Once again, England have lost the semi-final of a football

This time it was the under-21s European Championship.

England came from a goal down to take the lead

But the Germans equalised and it went to penalties -

Abraham's was saved - and so was Nathan Redmond's -

and they follow the fate of the senior teams in 1990 and 1996.

We are been practising for weeks, but the two players that you would

put odds on to save every time, their goalkeeper makes a great save.

It has been a real team effort and we can be pleased with a lot of

things we've done and in the enwe've lost on a penalty shoot-out and next

time we'll need to be better for it. A plan for England to play

a friendly in Thailand to win backing for their 2018 World Cup bid

was "a form of bribery", It was criticised in Fifa's

investigation into alleged corruption into the bidding process

for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups. England's cricketers

thrashed Pakistan to get their Women's World Cup campaign

back on track. Natalie Sivver and captain

Heather Knight both hit their first one-day international

centuries as England reached Pakistan never got close,

the rain intervened, I'll have the sports

headlines at 10.30am. Thank you very much.

It's 10.05am. This is where people come for drinks

at night, but for the past two weeks it has been an unofficial rescue

centre. Joe Walsh the guy that runs it, opened at 2am and was providing

tea and coffee, and since then it became a hub where people just

brought loads and loads of stuff to help people from the tower. At one

point they had 100 to 120 volunteers each day trying to work through the

boxes. They asked for help from the council to distribute stuch. That

wasn't forthcoming, so they did it themselves. Joe, is not opening the

social club at night because he is so busy during the day. He is not

complaining about that, but he hasn't taken any takings for two

weeks because he is helping, like so many other people are helping in

this community. This morning, we're here, two weeks on, to catch up with

people that we met two weeks ago. Survivors, people who did manage to

get out. We've got residents here who have been working their

backsides off frankly to try and help in their local community.

You'll notice that we've, a couple of chairs here now, empty chairs.

This is a photograph of the leader of the Kensington and Chelsea

Borough Council. There is Lunar, Joe's dog. Neither

were able to join us today, after requests, but we are told we will be

able to talk to the Housing Minister, representative of the

Conservative Government in the next hour of the programme. Now,

Conservative Assembly Member, Tony Deafenish has stayed here because

residents would like to talk to him further. Go ahead. Do talk to this

Conservative Assembly Member. Personally, I just feel like - I

understand that you have a role to play as an MP, I want you to take

that hat off and just wear your human hat in this. I understand, you

won't get t because you don't live here, you're not living here, but

these people are living here. I have to live it. I have to walk past here

daily. I have not been able to go to my job to service my patients

because I am so affected by what I saw that night. Now, I understand,

you didn't see, but just try to imagine and you're still not there,

so you have to just work from a human, all this Parliament said this

and they're picking people to go to Theresa May, they're lining up,

yesterday I happened to go past and I saw the British Red Cross out here

to see Prince Charles. I'm confused because I didn't see them on day

one. Let Mr Deafenish respond. You're speaking as a Conservative

Assembly Member, but you're being asked questions as representatives

of the Government. I live ten minutes away and I have been down

each day as well. I was here with the Mayor of London at 11am on the

first day with the London fire commissioner. You are right, I can't

imagine the horror you're going through, personally, it's terrible

and the Government right from the Prime Minister down has apologised

for the early response that was poor. But I can tell you now, there

are hundreds of people here helping you and if there is a specific issue

that you're not getting help on, your point was the most important

earlier when you said off air the reality is that there will be needs

and help will be required here, Health Service, help particularly

for years to come and the Government, and the GLA, the London

Assembly, the mayor, we all understand that and as a London

borough-wide response now, it is not just the local borough, it is

Labour, Conservative, Independent, across London, there is hundreds of

local Government offices and councillors helping now. These

people yesterday wrote to the Prime Minister about the public inquiry.

You talk about trust and trying rebuild trust and the importance of

that. These people wrote to the Prime Minister the day before

yesterday, to ask to make requests about the public inquiry. The Prime

Minister didn't reply to that letter. The Prime Minister went to

the Daily Telegraph and told The Daily Telegraph she wasn't going to

uphold one of the requests in that letter. So, how can you talk about

trust being rebuilt and another thing, the tenant management

organisation which is run by the Conservative council here, yesterday

changed the locks on a community centre which is being used every day

for art therapy for children. It's full of children and volunteers

every day and they went, they went and they changed the locks. This has

been the place that these people have been able to meet in this the

evening. You're still losing trust. OK. Respond to that and I'm going to

bring in Zed. I have not heard of that point and it is disturbing and

I will look into that when I get out of this meeting.

Zed. Listen, I was one of the local residents who met with Theresa May,

three times now, the first time was very rushed. There was an urgent

need to leave due to security concerns. Now, she had all of this

police around her and she had guys in suits and looking like topnotch

security, we were locked in the church, the gates were locked, the

security concerns weren't massive. If the conversation needed to be

finished, it could have been finished, but it was a conscious

decision that the security risk was too high and she had to leave. It

was a very mixed group of people that attendedment some victims, some

local residents, some support workers and charity people and

people from the church as well, but genuinely from my point of view,

everything discussed with Theresa May at the time is a way used to

gather information and rush brush more and more under the carpet.

That's the response. We're 14 days in and we still, your empty

apologies mean nothing. It means nothing to me. I don't want to speak

on behalf of everybody here. It probably means nothing to them as

well. Go ahead. The Prime Minister came and she undertook a number of

actions. Within two days, it was too late and she has admitted that. On

the Friday, she announced the ?5 million fund to start the actions.

We requested emergency funds to be delivered to the area straightaway.

So ?5 million, let's say that was sent to the Westway centre, there

was still no communication or no physical response on the ground to

ensure that all residents understood that that was happening. If you just

survived the fire in the tower, how likely are you going to be on the TV

or on social media looking at news posts, you're not going to be doing

that to understand where your help is. So she listened to some of our

statements and of course, yes, she actioned some because she had to in

one centre and one centre only and left the rest of us to deal with it

all alone. Zed, I'm going to pause you there.

We haven't spoken to Theresa May because apologies wouldn't do

anything now. It is the matter of people's lives. People have lost

their lives. So it is a clear message. We want to know how long

the investigation will take. We would like somebody to be held to

account. We demand to be part of every single step of the

investigation. We need to know... We lost everything. We lost our

brother. I'm going to introduce some new people if I may, laebleg,

forgive me. -- ladies and gentlemen, forgive me. We have Syd. Thank you

very much for talking to us. You were on the 15th floor. Yeah, but

before I start anything, please with I can, allow me with all the respect

to hold a minute's silence for my people, for my family from Grenfell

Tower. Can we have one minute's silence? Can we stand up and give

respect to them before we start any discussions. Yes.

And hello to you. Thank you so much for talking to us. When you met this

morning you did not know that he was alive. Can I tell them? He is one of

my patients, I am a local GP, I look after him and his family, it was

just the first time I have seen him since the incident. He was

hospitalised at one point. A bit emotional to see him well. You've

lost a lot of patience? We had 21 resident in the tower, we think ten

will be the death toll. We have not had formal notification yet, but we

expect the number is ten. How are you doing?

People telling me, move on. Who is telling you that? Everyone. Some

people from Government come to see you regarding paperwork. Everything

black and white. I want these people to come out from decades, to come

down to speak to us. Why is this going on? Where is the dead body?

Are you going to tell me he was burned? Where is the DNA? There is

no more process. We are the process. People are struggling to get their

own place. Why? We are not looking for money. People are taking

advantage, using our names. We do not want that to happen in this

community or Britain. People tell me, you are the lucky ones. No, I

don't consider myself lucky. They compare us to Syria or Iraq or

Pakistan, but it is a different situation, we are talking about

Britain, a powerful country. Process has to be changed now. Procedure has

to be changed now. I have a document which is very important, I want to

give that to everyone. We did not get any support. The first action

has to be done, why are they worried? The media come here to take

folk -- videos of fire. What is going on? What is the law? The human

beings. We are not going to forget this. I am not aiming for money.

Even our meeting yesterday, the because been done, we worked hard to

just bring everyone together. We did not get access to a list of the

survivors. We have been asking for it, where are the survivors? The

houses in Harrow Road for disabled and older people, they are not even

ready. A disabled lady came to the hotel, she is disabled. I do not

want to give individual problems, because we can deal with it.

There is a lady with us, she wanted me to speak slowly, and she wants to

understand. I am doing it for them, to understand what is going on.

Want to develop an independent, United and typified voice. Keep the

community together. We have set up a programme for us all, we are

Grenfell United. We were not expecting people to come. Nobody

slept in six days. I need to see these people that want to get back

their dignity. Where is dignity? If you asked anyone here, they say, I

want Betty. Where are the MPs? -- I want dignity. I want is a major

come, to speak to the people. They took some people from the hotel with

the police, taking video, witnesses. I do not want that to happen. Not

now. What we are expecting, we did not

get that, we will get it ourselves. We do not want any trouble. If

anybody tries to help us, community or whatever, I do not want any

chewable. We are not looking for that. -- I do not want any trouble.

Go with the system and deal with the system and we will get there. But

what I want to say is very important. I want the investigation

to stop with the contractor Tom people responsible, people who took

the contract, they took millions under the table, we want them to be

arrested and in custody. That is the first that the Government has to do.

Do you have faith in the criminal investigation that the police are

going to carry out? And the public enquiry? No. Is everybody saying no?

We made some clear points on what we would like for the enquiry. We ask,

could we have some input on who the judge was, who would be the chair,

who would be on the panel, what the terms of reference would be. Theresa

May did not even bother to respond to us. She just issued a statement

by the press. Even that is quite insulting. We wrote to her, it was

an open letter, but you give an open response, and she did not bother to

reply. Mohammed fled Syria, and in Syria you never see a whole building

go on fire. They would deal with it better than Grenfell. You would

never see a whole building burn in fire in Syria.

Why do we have gas pipes in our escape route? We will ask the

housing minister. There is an important point, a few

days after the unravelling of Grenfell I sat down with Amber Rudd,

and we made a list of demands on behalf of the residents, we were so

traumatised from what we saw at the tower and in the following steps

afterwards, I could not sleep for three days, so I can only imagine

what they are going through. We want to get Mohammed's family over from

Syria, it was well-publicised though we should roll out the red carpet

for it. There were other demands made which were agreed, such as no

resident being for is fully relocated outside the borough, but

they were. Yesterday I was with two families who have been relocated to

East London. Number three, there was a case made, on behalf of the

residents that we have been working with from day one, the hundred plus

residents, they see the fund as blood money, they want support. Why

is it that in a catastrophe like this there was no Cobra meeting? Is

that not the purpose of a Cobra meeting? Some of the other points,

we have been told that we have Visa waiver programme is, offering

ongoing counselling, but people have not been able to bury their dead in

a dignified manner. People have not had access to funeral directors.

People have not been given counselling, bar those that have

come forward from the NHS to say, we will take our badges off if we do it

as people. I will say thank you so much for your time today, I know you

have to go. And to Tony Devenish. There is a gentleman here who has

had his hand up. We can hear you. People are talking about having

faith in the enquiry and people losing trust. That is them, but I

have never had any. Everyone has seen the answers we have had from

that guy, it looks like he don't even sneeze. The kind of answers we

are getting are not good enough. Theresa May said there was no magic

monetary, she found that swiftly to keep her job.

We will talk more in the next half an hour, and hopefully we will talk

to the housing minister and put some of the questions that have been

raised about the gas pipes in the stairwell, for example, the fact

there has not been a Cobra meeting. For the moment, we will pause to

look at some of the questions that remain after the disaster.

Here's a look at some of the questions that

remain about the disaster here at the Grenfell Tower two weeks later.

And a warning that the clip we're about to show you has

There's mothers that have come out and lost

There are firefighters that have come out

There was smoke everywhere, literally everywhere.

There was people downstairs, there was bits of the

block cladding falling off the block.

There was a man who threw two of his children.

I looked behind me, and I didn't see my

I said, "My brother, my brother, where is he?"

I called him, and said, "Where are you?"

He said, "No one brought me outside."

I'm not going to lie, the locals are angry.

Life didn't need to be lost, and they

And people are looking for their children,

This shouldn't have happened in 2017.

And at 2:45am, I called a friend of mine

He said to me, "My kitchen is burning now.

I don't know what to do," he said to me.

People have lost their homes, children have seen things, people

We just need to rebuild as a community now.

Here at the Maxilla Centre, we're joined by a group

of survivors of Grenfell tower, people who've lost loved ones

Many people here are frustrated, we have heard it again today with those

figures. They don't believe them. They don't understand why the figure

is 79 when they themselves have told us today there are many people that

they know are missing and are not potentially included in that figure.

One person with considerable experience in this area is Denise.

She is a forensic scientist and a specialist in this area.

We have Ross O'Brien. And Katie is here. She is an

executive headteacher of a school and nursery. They lost pupil and a

member of staff in the fire. Denise, if I could start with you. Tell us

about the complexity and the difficulty involved in trying to

identify people in a tragedy of this scale. We have many challenges. We

haven't experienced anything like this in the UK before. Part of that

is related to the intensity of the fire. Some of the people who were

living in the tower will have experienced such high levels,

intensities of heat that their remains may only be fragmented

bones. And that is an enormous challenge for me as a forensic

scientist. Can it be done though? Well, in the nearest comparable

situation is the World Trade Centre and I think about 40% of people have

never been identified. Our techniques are much, much better

now. But our challenge will be that in some cases, I suspect, we will

not be able to get any DNA that we can use. Right. The second challenge

will be if Ebbe if we have viable DNA, that we can use in order to

identify somebody, we have to link that DNA to a member of their family

or something belong to go them and we know that many of the close

relatives will have perished in this fire and there will not be material

that we can use to identify them available so we are looking for any

close relatives. Some of those may not be in this country and it's

going to be a difficult task to find relatives that we can actually use

for the identification. And what you have described, does that explain

why the figure at the moment is 79, but is expected to rise according to

officials? But we have residents saying, look, we know it's more. I

expect it is more, but it's very difficult for... To give a formal

official figure. They have given a minimum. OK. We know it must be a

minimum. Right. Is, sorry to interrupt, Denise. Is it plausible

that the authorities are deliberately suppressing the numbers

and dripping the figure out slowly over a period of time? I don't

believe that is the case. I understand that the distress of

everybody and the knowledge that firemen have said, well, we know

there is more and understand that, but in order to say, "We have a

person here who is different from another person." You maybe talking

about small fragments of tissue which is very distressing and one of

our aims is to be able to reunite those people with their statement

lis and that's going to be very challenging. And may not even be

possible for everybody. Really? Yes. OK. Let's ask people here then, do

you believe the numbers are being deliberately suppressed and if you

do, why? Danny, we haven't heard from you. I am from the community

church around the corner. For me this whole thing has been how much

do we place a value on people's lives. I spent a decade doing youth

work. I graoup on a council estate in Liverpool. Poverty is poverty, we

know there is a price tag on the value of people's lives and for me,

what's so difficult is that, this has been coming for so long. I

worked in Peckham, every day, hundreds of kids were coming to our

centre, hungry. Hungry. So the numbers thing I'm not surprised.

It's going to be hundreds. They're not going to tell us like they did

with Hillsborough. Let me hear from Amanda. If you believe they are

being deliberately suppressed, tell me why you think that is happening?

International outcry. I have been telling everyone that's younger than

me, calm down. Let's do this the way the system wants us to do this. Keep

calm. Don't riot. Do it the right way, but the more that they are

suppressing and the more that they are retracking and the more they are

hiding, the more the rage is building and that can only mean one

thing. That is international. So the minute the more that they are

holding down and saying that it's 79, 78, 79, people are starting to

use their own intelligence to calculate no, that's not what

happening and they are building up for rage and that's why they don't

want everyone to turn on them. It has happened already. The Housing

Minister, I'm told, is here. And he has agreed to be with us today after

pressure from residents. So, I know you have questions for him. I think

he's here. Hello. I'm Victoria. Take a seat.

Thank you very much for giving us your time today. This is spl

people's lives Sharma. He is the Housing Minister and he's here to

answer lots of questions as the Housing Minister, the first question

is why have people yet to be re-housed two weeks on? Can I just

first speak to all the people who are here? We are committed to doing

everything we can to help every single person had has been affected

and it's not good enough. That's not true. We don't need the sympathy.

Answer her direct questions. So the direct answer is that what we have

committed to is that everyone will be offered housing in the local

area. Two weeks in. When? We said within three weeks. So that's next

Wednesday. No, you said you would house them in three weeks. No one

has been offered. People have been offered temporary accommodation. You

have got different priorities. You have got people that lost everything

and people who have been evacuated. There are different priorities. Next

door to me, I have got family who lost family, possession, it is not

good enough. Let's come back. Just a minute. What are you guaranteeing

will happen within three weeks which gives you one more week? So what

we're guaranteeing those people who have had their homes destroyed will

be offered accommodation by next Wednesday. In Kensington? Into the

local area. What type of tenancy? We're going to do this. Joe, Joe, we

are going to do this in order. Mr Sharma is going to give us as much

time as we need, but we are going to take our time. We are going to take

our time because we need to hear the answers, OK? So you say there is one

more week. You say suitable accommodation will be offered and it

will be in the local borough, that's a guarantee? It will be in the local

area. What does that mean? So, what that means is that it will be either

in Kensington and Chelsea or in a neighbouring borough. If I may? What

we're doing is having a discussion with every single family and

household that's been affected and discussing with them their

particular needs. So this is about making sure that people get the

accommodation that meets their needs and I know there has been talk out

there about, there has been talk out there about the fact that, you know,

people don't accept the first housing offer, that is not the case.

Let me give you that assurance. You should sir hold me accountable for

that, because at the end of the day, that's exactly what we have said.

OK. OK. What do you mean by the word accommodation? What do you define as

accommodation? What I define by temporary accommodation... So now

it's temporary. Sajid Javid announced that 63 apartments in

Kensington Row will be allocated. We need to know in writing for these

residents, for these survivors, in writing, what are the terms and

conditions of that. I have been told that between the end of June,

mid-July we cannot expect any people in permanent residence. Let's

clarify that. I want to highlight is how twice you mentioned the word

accommodation the the third time you mentioned the word accommodation and

third time it became temporary accommodation. Let him respond. Let

him respond. OK, is it temporary accommodation that you are going to

be offering by this time next week? Can I say, look, I understand why

people are really angry. I do understand that. Please if I may

have, if I may have just for one minute... Angry. I went to the

harrow Club last week together with my colleague Nick Hurd and I met

people who was affected by this. The bravery that people are showing in

coming forward and the dignity is something that... Stop, please. They

are asking you to stop your platitudes, please.

I'm not moving my child from here to here to here. I want a permanent

accommodation. If you don't get the permanent accommodation, I'm not

going to accept it. I'm not going to take any house you give me. If you

give me a house, I'm not going to take it. I was happy in my house. I

had a good house. I'm not going to accept it. Give me a hug. No, no,

please, we will come to you, Syd, I promise. I promise. So, Victoria...

Just a minute. He does not want temporary accommodation, he wants

permanent accommodation, he wants good, permanent acome dogs, that's

not too much to ask. Can you promise him that? Victoria, so what we have

said... Just say yes or no? Yes, of course, we're going to make sure

that everyone is in good, quality accommodation. If I may answer, then

I will explain to you precisely what's going on. So right now, we

have a lot of people who are in hotels, what we have said is that

we're doing these housing needs assessments with everyone and anyone

here who has not that done I will sit down after this and we will go

through, anyone that's not getting any help, that you need, we will sit

do you think I will not leave until I have spoken to every single person

who needs support right now. So what we have said... My next question is

Mahad Egal, you may not have met him, he was offered accommodation,

he escaped from the fourth floor of the burning tower, he was offered

accommodation in a high-rise block, why? If that accommodation is not

acceptable to you and I understand why then you should not accept it. I

will sit down with you straight after this and we will have a

discussion about precisely what it is that will suit you and then, if

need be, I will sit down with you and the people who do the housing

assessment needs and we will work out and make sure... Sit down with

them. Clarify this. These people here are united. The programme has

been set-up. We need from you guys, please, stop hiding things from us.

It's international now. Stop hiding. I want everything on the table black

and white. I want you everything by confirmation. We don't want to talk.

Please. Please. Can I give you one, please, I'm not angry, stop saying

to people we're angry. We're not angry. We cry every day for these

people. We're not angry. We're sad. Disappointed. Disappointed.

Frustrated, traumatised. We are not angry. Stop saying angry, angry,

even in politics we don't use it. It is a shame to use this word to us.

It's a shame. Angry for someone who doesn't control himself. Angry a

killer who doesn't control his mind. We're not angry people. We know,

we're trying to set-up a programme and we want to have our voice heard.

Let him respond. No, no, Syd, you need to let him respond.

Now you have to let him respond, and then we will take questions calmly

from each of you. The first question is that people want stuff in

writing. I have written with my colleague, and that letter has

hopefully been sent out, if you have not seen it...

The council has no clue where my wife and kids are. Do you promise

you will gather the victims and survivors up from the tragedy

together to understand their needs? Will you do that? They say they have

not been heard, they have not been gathered together in one place. Will

you ask you will do that? Them when they are together, they have the

voice of unity. We want to be part of... When we are talking about this

inquiry, it has already started, but we have not had the opportunity to

come together as one. We need to be part of every single decision made.

With respect, I think this is where we are at the moment, and tell me if

I have misunderstood. You are promising good permanent

accommodation within seven days? What I have said is that what we are

offering people is good accommodation which meets the needs

of individual families within the seven-day period, but what we will

then do is work with everyone to make sure that they then move into

more permanent accommodation, which I gain meets their needs are.

Explain why you cannot offer permanent accommodation within this

timescale. We need to make sure that we have the right type of housing in

place, so what we are doing is... England is gone. A private contract,

because of your greed. Your greed has created hell. Your greed, for

money in your pocket, for these people to be poor.

Guys, there is no point shouted. There are not secure tenancies

anymore, are there, Minister? Is that fair on victims? When people

are offered permanent accommodation, it will be on the same terms as they

had before. That is not going to change. In the borough there are

50,000 vacant properties, if I am not mistaken, and if you wanted, if

the community had managed to find temporary shelters in hotels with

unlimited resources that you have access to, that we do not even know

about, why are these people not being moved into those permanent

properties? You cannot take over this. Let him answer. In terms of

letters, I am happy to write individually to people. Where are

you going to write to them at? Sergey Javad will also be writing a

letter to individuals, where you have concerns. There is a committee,

I will come back whenever you want and have a discussion with the group

as a whole. Let him speak. I came to the Harrow club, I don't know if

anyone here was there, but I spoke to everyone and I took up individual

cases. I am committing to sit down with every person here and anybody

else that you know that needs help and is not getting it. We will get

people together. The discussion on individual needs... Why has the

Government not convened a Cobra meeting when it did do when part of

the country were flooded? We have been having meetings regularly, we

had one on recovery yesterday, the first Cobra meeting was held... I

cannot give you the precise date... 96 hours after this disaster

unravelled. I would agree that the initial response was not good

enough. It was pathetic. There was no response. What about his point

about the thousands of empty homes? This was a community of people who

had known each other for decades, their kids went to school together.

You should promise that this land should be kept council owned and

these people have a right to return at any point. Onto his point, why is

it OK that there are thousands of empty homes in this area and these

people are homeless, when this is their community? I understand. What

will you do about that? People want to stay together as a community. We

are identifying homes, we have already identified a large number of

homes. Answer the question, please. I am attempting to do that.

May I just say... There are 845 homes that are also part of that

block, the Lancaster West State, who have been affected. My family and

friends are part of the tower, but that also affects the 845 homes, not

residents, of part of the Lancaster West is date. That has to be part of

the ultimate solution. You have not mentioned that. Everybody is talking

about 63 luxury flats, what about the 845 homes? The residents

speculated there are some that are now confirmed dead, but what about

the rest of them and the rest of the estate? It is not just the tower. I

do understand that. He won't know what to answer. Let him speak. Those

850 homes that are outside Grenfell, some of those households are being

accommodated currently in hotels, and those who have had their homes

destroyed will of course be offered accommodation. I understand that

people do not have gas and hot water in those buildings, and there is

work being done to fix that. No gas, water, security. Water damage. There

is debris, you have had cleaners on site, there is no access. Those are

the people do have put it hotels. Did you know that? Yet. You failed

to mention it. It is vital, because you are now talking to the world, it

is vital you let them know exactly what is happening, I can live

without hot water, you can have a shower in the Westway or wherever,

although now you have to pay. Minister, you are hearing these

voices, everybody has concerns and they want specific answers. Please

be specific what package are you offering in terms of housing the

residents back into this borough? Be specific please, without the flowery

words. Please get him to speak. Let him do that. Let the minister speak,

he what he is committing to. We have committed to anybody whose home has

been destroyed will be housed by next Wednesday in good

accommodation, and then we will work... In housing that is

acceptable to them. We are not going to offer you a home, you don't like

it and you will still have to go there. Let me finish. Then we will

work with those households to make sure they are in a longer term

permanent home, which is on the same contract level in terms of social

housing that you have had before, and we have talked about some of

these in Kensington Road, and we will work with people to make sure

that, depending on their needs, they get those, and who will make sure

that some more of those houses and flats become available. I understand

people want answers now. That is the offer. Another concern was we have

lots of empty homes and people want to be rehoused within the community.

There is a concern of social cleansing, people being moved out of

this area. The reason why the tower block was clad gusty make it look

more appealing to the rich neighbourhood. There is a concern,

and there is a demand that people want to be rehoused back into their

community, and not moved out of their area. The ward. We want to be

in the board. Could you answer, please? Can we have some specifics

by what you mean about neighbouring areas? Can you mention in terms of

the accommodation, because you have sidestepped the issue, 52,000 vacant

properties, what is your time frame? You have access to unlimited

resources, more than we do. Can you clarify those points? The time frame

is clear, by next Wednesday will make sure... In terms of the

transition to the per minute -- permanent accommodation, what can we

expect? As quickly as possible. They don't know. Just to clarify, I

understand there is tension, and I do understand it is not just your

responsibility or your fault, but it is OK, I just want to clarify, if

you don't know, or if you need to confirm to somebody else, as long as

we are not given false promises, because the worst thing you can do

is to give these people. This is which will be broken, or lie. I am

not here to give you false promises. I will sit down with each of you

individually and talk about your circumstances. I am also happy to

sit down with people as a community group and talk about the issues.

That is my personal commitment. We'll use it with all of the

survivors together? I will work with the group that you have here. These

bring together all of the people that are affected, I am very happy

to sit down and have that discussion, but what is also

important is that everybody individually gets the support they

need and deserve. If you are not getting it, I want to try to fix

that TA. -- fix that today. You are promising to meet people

individually when we have whole institution in place, and now the

response in place to handle that. There is a catastrophic failure in

the entire system. I am so sorry, we are coming to the end of the

programme. We are at the end of the programme, I am so sorry. I will

thank all of you. You are going to stay and talk to them, thank you for

your time this morning. Thank you so much, you can carry on talking after

the end of the programme. Brexit means Brexit.

We did it! To pretend that it's going to be

plain sailing is such knuckle-headed lunacy.

Happy days are here.