30/06/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


30/06/2017

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Hello, it's Friday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Joanna Gosling,

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Documents seen by BBC News suggest the cladding recently fitted

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on Grenfell Tower was nearly ?300,000 cheaper

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This latest development in the fire's aftermath comes

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as a council meeting last night descended into chaos.

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An absolute fiasco, this is why I'm calling for your resignation,

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not because of what happened with the fire, but the sheer

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and ongoing incompetence that this council has shown ever

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We'll bring you the latest from the scene in west London.

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The end of a long and desperate journey.

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The parents of ten-month-old Charlie Gard - who lost their fight

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to take him to America for experimental treatment -

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say his life support will be switched off today.

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It's going to be the worst day of our lives.

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We know what day our son is going to die and we don't even get a say

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We'll look back at the enormous effort they went

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to, to keep him alive.

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Donald Trump's travel ban takes effect after months of controversy.

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People from six mainly Muslim countries and all refugees will now

:01:14.:01:16.

face a tougher time getting into the US.

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The president says it's designed to stop terrorism.

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Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11am.

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After a fall in knife crime, levels are now

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Four people killed in four days this week.

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We are talking to a mum whose son was stabbed and killed and also

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Do get in touch on all the stories we're

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talking about this morning - use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

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and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today - cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower

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during its refurbishment was changed to a version which cost nearly

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?300,000 less than the original version chosen, a document seen

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At least 80 people were killed when the tower block in west London

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A council meeting to discuss the tragedy was called off last

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night within minutes of starting after a row broke out over

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the attendance of members of the public and press.

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He wants answers, and the rest of us...

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A meeting of councillors ending in chaos.

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Another sign of a council creaking under pressure.

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Having failed to properly respond to the disaster, last night,

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Kensington and Chelsea failed in a bid to ban reporters

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A High Court judge had to remind senior councillors their discussions

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are supposed to be open so the top team walked out.

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The leader of the council's Labour group is demanding changes

:03:07.:03:09.

I want the senior leadership of the council and the cabinet to resign.

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I want a new organisation in the council who can finally get

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to grips with the situation and make sure that my residents are properly

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Ten days after this disaster, and I'll remind you,

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we are only two or three miles away from Parliament, we're not

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in the middle of a third world country, ten days

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after the disaster, my people are still not being housed properly.

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They are still not getting the access to the money

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Before last night's meeting, the council leader accepted

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the criticism but said he was not going.

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The scale of this was absolutely enormous, unprecedented.

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I think any council would have found it difficult to have

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This was a very big challenge for a relatively small London

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borough and I'm sure we could have done better and we will look

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at what we could have done differently or quicker or better

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and that will be one of the lessons that we learn from this tragedy.

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The panels stuck on the building are a key area for the investigation.

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The BBC has been told that during refurbishment,

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zinc cladding was rejected in favour of an aluminium alternative,

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not as fire retardant, although it has the same official rating.

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It was chosen because it was cheaper.

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The council saved more than ?290,000.

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How costly that decision could have been is one of many

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A man has been charged with fraud after allegedly claiming

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he lost family members in the Grenfell Tower fire.

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Anh Nhu Nguyen, who's 52 and of no fixed address,

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We will speak to the chairman of the Local Government Association shortly

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for his reaction to everything that is going on after the Grenfell Tower

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fire. First, Annita is in the BBC

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Newsroom with a summary The parents of ten-month-old Charlie

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Gard, who fought an unsuccessful legal battle to take him to America

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for experimental treatment, say he will stop receiving life-support

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today. Charlie has a rare genetic condition and brain damage. Doctors

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at Great Ormond Street Hospital said the US treatment would not help him.

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We should be over the road, sitting next to our son,

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Charlie Gard's bed, spending the last precious

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But we just thought we would take five minutes out to come

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It's a video no one should ever have to make.

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In a heart-breaking YouTube post, ten-month-old Charlie Gard's parents

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say they're being denied their last hope for their baby boy.

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We promised our little boy every single day

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that we would take him home, because that is a promise

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We want to give him a bath at home, we want to sit on the sofa with him,

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we want to sleep in the bed with him, we want to put him

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in a cot that he's never slept in, but we are now being denied that.

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Charlie was born with a rare genetic condition and is

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Connie Yates and Chris Gard have been fighting to

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keep his life support switched on since March,

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despite doctors saying there's no hope for improvement.

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They took their fight all the way to the European Court of Human Rights.

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But this week, they lost, as judges agreed with the British

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courts it was most likely Charlie was being exposed to continued pain.

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Today, his life support will be switched off.

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His parents say they're being rushed at the most difficult

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The 4th of August 2016 was the best day of our life,

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But 30th June, 2017, is going to be the worst

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Great Ormond Street Hospital say they won't comment on specific

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details of patient care, but this is a very distressing

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situation for Charlie's parents and all of the staff involved

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The German parliament has voted to legalise same-sex marriage.

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The bill will grant gay and lesbian couples full marital rights

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Let's get more from Berlin correspondent, Jenny Hill. Good

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morning. The Chancellor herself voted against this bill but she gave

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MPs a free vote, didn't she? Yes come Angela Merkel will, I suppose,

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go down in history as the Chancellor who in effect made same-sex marriage

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possible in Germany. This all happened in a very last minute and

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dramatic fashion. Earlier this week, Mrs Merkel gave an interview during

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which she appeared to drop her long-standing opposition to same-sex

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marriage and said that she would give MPs a free vote on the subject.

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That allowed her left-wing political opposition to effectively jumped at

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the chance to push through a bill they have been trying to get into

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Parliament for many years. They managed to do it right at the last

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minute. Parliament goes on summer holidays tomorrow. Mrs Merkel,

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because she had allowed MPs a free vote, effectively Dave Parliamentary

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approval. It meant there was enough support across Parliament to pass

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the legislation, even though she herself then voted against the

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measure. In a way, I suspect she was trying to appeal to the more

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conservative elements of her own party whilst in effect allowing this

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to go ahead. Bear in mind, Mrs Merkel has an election later this

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year and she might have to go into coalition with parties who would

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have demanded same-sex marriage legislation as part of a coalition

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agreement. So a lot of politics going on behind-the-scenes but

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certainly in Germany, I think it is a decision which is very welcome.

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The majority of Germans, a poll suggests, are in favour of same-sex

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marriage. It is one of the very last, I suppose, Western liberal

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democracy to bring in this legislation. It is likely to face

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some challenges at the Constitutional Court but if all goes

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according to plan, it should come into force by the end of the year.

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Thank you for joining us. Jenny Hill in Berlin.

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Parts of President Trump's controversial travel ban have

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On Monday, a Supreme Court ruling upheld the temporary ban,

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which covers visitors from six mainly Muslim countries

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and means people without "close" family or business relationships

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in the US could be denied visas and barred entry.

:09:55.:09:56.

But the measures have already been brought back to court

:09:57.:09:59.

An investigation by chemical weapons inspectors has concluded

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that the banned nerve agent sarin was used in an attack

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on a rebel-held town in northern Syria in April.

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More than 80 people were killed.

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The attack prompted the United States to launch a cruise

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missile strike on a Syrian government air base.

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The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said he had no doubt

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Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad's forces were involved

:10:25.:10:26.

Funerals for two of the Manchester bombing victims will

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22 people were killed when suicide bomber Salman Abedi detonated

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a device as crowds left an Ariana Grande concert.

:10:44.:10:45.

A service will be held for 29-year-old Martyn Hett

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at Stockport Town Hall, which will also be screened

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onto the street outside for members of the public.

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Another funeral will take place for 15-year-old

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The American tennis player Venus Williams,

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who is due to play at Wimbledon next week, has been involved in a car

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crash which led to the death of a 78-year-old man.

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A police spokesman told the BBC they were investigating

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the incident in Florida, which happened earlier this month.

:11:12.:11:13.

Williams' lawyer said the tennis star "expresses her deepest

:11:14.:11:16.

More than a quarter of women who are overdue for

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a cervical cancer test don't know screening is available,

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The charity found there was a particular lack

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of awareness among women who spoke English as a second language.

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Around 3,000 new cases are diagnosed every year and the charity says more

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needs to be done to reach women who are missing tests.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

:11:45.:11:48.

Let us know your thoughts on knife crime. The number of knife crime

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attacks in London has gone up quite dramatically this year. We are going

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to be talking about why and what can be done to try to reverse the trend.

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Use the hashtag Victoria live and If you text, you will be charged

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Just days away from the start of Wimbledon, Johanna Konta is looking

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in good form? Yes, it seems to be going pretty

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well for her ahead of this year's Wimbledon. We know already she's not

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the greatest grass court player and it is not her favourite surface

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she's only of a won one match at Wimbledon which is something she

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definitely going to be looking to improve this year. She won two

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matches yesterday in the warm up tournament in Eastbourne. Firstly,

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she came past French Open champion Jelena Ostapenko in three sets

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before her quarterfinal against the world number one Angelique Kerber.

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Johanna Konta took the first set 6-3, playing very well. But she fell

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heavily on match point in the second set and the match was delayed for

:12:56.:12:58.

about ten minutes as she had treatment. But she recovered and

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eventually took her fourth match point and the second set 6- for some

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good day at the British number one. -- 6-4. And Heather Watson is also

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into the last four in Eastbourne with a win over Barbora Strycova.

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She will take on former world number one Caroline Wozniacki later.

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Johanna Konta faces birdseed Karolina Pliskova. Lots to look

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forward to later. Good news for both of them but not so much for Andy

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Murray because his sore hip means he pulled out of his final warm up

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match, resting instead yesterday, and he said he is unlikely to be

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able to practise today which is not ideal preparation for the number one

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seed and the world number one. How about the world number 855? If you

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don't know who he is, his name is Alex Ward, the only Briton to come

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through singles qualifying for Wimbledon, doing it by coming from a

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set down to beat Teymuraz Gabashvili in four sets in Roehampton. He will

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be one of 12 British players in the main draw which is made in around an

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hour. We will have news on that a bit later. It is made even more

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amazing for Alex Ward as he was given a wild card just to get into

:14:11.:14:14.

qualifying having lost his previous seven matches before this week. It

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is a great result for him. So much for British tennis fans to look

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forward to in the next couple of weeks. Johanna Konta and Heather --

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and Heather Watson's semifinals will be on BBC Two straight after this

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programme. And we love an underdog is Alex Ward

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will have lots of support! Huge match in rugby union this weekend

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but it is the team selection for the Lions that has got everyone talking.

:14:39.:14:44.

We spoke about the pressure the Lions are under yesterday. Warren

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Gatland made some changes which have prompted raised eyebrows, former

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Welsh international Jonathan Davies telling the BBC that Warren Gatland

:14:54.:14:56.

had his last of the dice by putting Johnny Sexton and Owen Farrell in

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the back line together. Former player Jeremy Guscott has called the

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decision ambitious but said it could come at a cost, calling it a gamble.

:15:03.:15:07.

The Lions must win the second Test against New Zealand in Wellington at

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around this time tomorrow morning or they will hand the all Blacks the

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series win. It is about character this week for us. It is about

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manning up and putting everything on the line. It is that situation,

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isn't it? It is do or die for us. Indeed it is, a big game tomorrow

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morning, lots to look forward to. More sport later.

:15:35.:15:38.

Documents obtained by BBC News show that the cladding originally due

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to be installed on Grenfell Tower was changed to a version

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The cladding was fitted as part of a refurbishment

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and is thought to have contributed to the rapid spread of the blaze

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that consumed the 24-storey block two weeks ago.

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It comes as a meeting of senior councillors at Kensington

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and Chelsea town hall last night, which was linked to

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the Grenfell Tower tragedy, descended into chaos

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when it was scrapped as journalists entered the room.

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The media has been barred until a court order gave them permission to

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attend. The leader of the council was confronted by opposition

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councillors. This is a private meeting of the cabinet... Why are

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the press here then? To which councillors have been invited. I've

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agreed the meeting be held in private given the threats of

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assaults. Are there journalists here. I'm advised if there are

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others present we cannot have an open discussion. You have got

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journal I haves in the room. I understand we can't have an open

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discussion. You can't organise a cabinet meeting. We can't have an

:17:14.:17:21.

unprejudiced meeting if journalists are recording and writing our

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comments. Clearly they are, who let them in? You have spent a day

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talking about the security of the meeting and five minutes before it

:17:30.:17:33.

starts, the press are here. Now you're telling us we can't have a

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proper meeting. The press are here as a result of legal representation,

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that means we can't have the discussion we were intending to

:17:44.:17:46.

have. That will prejudice the inquiry. That is the legal advice I

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have received and I have to declare the meeting closed. You have used

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this as an opportunity for you to make a statement and no one gets to

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say anything. You could have issued that statement and you should have

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issued that statement eight days ago. That statement has just been

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issued. I would like to have a conversation, but I'm advised we

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can't do that. An absolute fiasco, because of the incompetence this

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council has shown since this happened. Thank you, my advice I we

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can't continue. You telling us you're taking advice, you're taking

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the wrong advice. You're not facing up even to your own councillors. Why

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don't you come and talk to people? You saw Robert

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Well you saw Robert Atkinson there, a labour councillor whose ward

:18:56.:18:58.

includes Grenfell Tower, criticising the the way

:18:59.:19:01.

He's been speaking to our reporter Dan Johnson

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We went with the idea that we would be briefed as to

:19:05.:19:09.

what the council is proposing to do in the longer term for the residents

:19:10.:19:12.

to take care of the housing needs, not just of the victims but the

:19:13.:19:16.

people of the surrounding area, so we had a whole series

:19:17.:19:18.

of questions and wished to have a genuine debate.

:19:19.:19:21.

The Leader of the Council read a statement,

:19:22.:19:23.

ten days ago, and then once he became aware

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he sought to change the meeting, which of course...

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To close the meeting, which, of course, we

:19:30.:19:31.

then challenged him and tried to ask our questions.

:19:32.:19:33.

Would you rather the meeting had gone ahead without the

:19:34.:19:39.

Well, initially, we were told that it

:19:40.:19:43.

would be a private meeting and that we could be

:19:44.:19:46.

frank with each other, but we ended up with the worst of

:19:47.:19:49.

The residents have a right to meet with the leaders of

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The leaders of the council have been hiding from the

:19:54.:20:00.

residents for the last week, and they should

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have had the courage to

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meet with people and answer questions.

:20:04.:20:05.

The least that we could do is to face the residents

:20:06.:20:07.

face-to-face, and they are not prepared to do it.

:20:08.:20:11.

I think they're frightened and they're in a panic, and they wish

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to give the impression that they are in control.

:20:17.:20:20.

And they're clearly not, as the entire nation saw last night.

:20:21.:20:23.

They can't even organise a meeting in the basement of their own Town

:20:24.:20:26.

What do you think should happen next?

:20:27.:20:30.

I think that the leadership of the council and the

:20:31.:20:32.

I think that the TMO organisation, which has

:20:33.:20:38.

completely collapsed and failed to do anything in the last ten days,

:20:39.:20:41.

They need to grasp hold of the housing and care needs of

:20:42.:20:46.

their residents and they need to do something.

:20:47.:20:48.

So, I'm now appealing to Tory backbenchers, who have now seen

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for themselves the way that their Cabinet is not

:20:53.:20:54.

coping, to get a grip and organise themselves.

:20:55.:20:58.

Wouldn't a wholesale change of leadership at

:20:59.:21:00.

the top of the council just cause more problems right now?

:21:01.:21:05.

Well, that's one reason why we waited - we

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did think that there might be more chaos,

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but actually, we're now in a

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situation where the other local authorities who have been supporting

:21:12.:21:14.

us want to pull out, but they are not able

:21:15.:21:17.

to pass responsibility, particularly not for the housing

:21:18.:21:20.

needs, back to the council, because the council is not

:21:21.:21:22.

functioning, which is why, at the end of the day

:21:23.:21:25.

yesterday, I urged the Government to send

:21:26.:21:28.

It's not often that a councillor calls for the abolition

:21:29.:21:34.

of his own council, but at the end of the day, as everybody so,

:21:35.:21:38.

You're saying Kensington and Chelsea just

:21:39.:21:40.

isn't up to this and it needs to be a higher power that takes over?

:21:41.:21:44.

Yes, it took the Government till last week to

:21:45.:21:46.

get rid of the chief executive of the council.

:21:47.:21:48.

The council couldn't even sack its own chief executive.

:21:49.:21:51.

Now I'm saying to the Government, the council itself can't function,

:21:52.:21:53.

so the Government needs to step in and appoint commissioners.

:21:54.:22:21.

Members of press sought and acquired an injunction that was served on the

:22:22.:22:28.

council. Members of press joined the meeting after it started. The

:22:29.:22:32.

cabinet received legal advice that in order not to prejudice the public

:22:33.:22:36.

inquiry the meeting could not proceed as it would not be possible

:22:37.:22:41.

to restrict the discussion without straying into areas that would fall

:22:42.:22:48.

into the remit of public inquiry. We will explore opportunity for open

:22:49.:22:52.

discussions that don't prejudice the public inquiry.

:22:53.:22:59.

So far, all of the 137 tests on cladding of high rise buildings

:23:00.:23:02.

across the country have failed safety tests.

:23:03.:23:03.

But the chair of the London Government Association Lord Porter

:23:04.:23:06.

is now questioning the value of those tests.

:23:07.:23:08.

That meeting, what a farce, what did you think seeing the pictures of

:23:09.:23:17.

what happened? Seeing that didn't paint local government in the best

:23:18.:23:20.

light. If I was running that council I would hope I would have the

:23:21.:23:24.

ability to run it in a slightly different way than it happened last

:23:25.:23:29.

night. You have to be careful how you organise meetings, particularly

:23:30.:23:32.

around a sensitive issue and the public must be able to know what is

:23:33.:23:39.

going on, so must the press. Should the meeting have gone on. I don't

:23:40.:23:43.

know the things they know about the thing ts they were going to talk

:23:44.:23:50.

about. If they thought it could prejudice the public inquiry, maybe

:23:51.:23:54.

their advice was right. I can't imagine for myself that with

:23:55.:23:58.

something so sensitive we would have dealt with it that way. It is not

:23:59.:24:03.

like it is not being talked about elsewhere, we have the documents on

:24:04.:24:08.

the cladding, these things are out there being talked about, the

:24:09.:24:12.

residents are talking, it is hard to imagine what might have come up in

:24:13.:24:17.

the meeting, but we don't know. To people looking on it just looks like

:24:18.:24:22.

an attempt to try to shut down debate. But this subject is so large

:24:23.:24:27.

and so wide and so far-fetched in terms of its impact that this debate

:24:28.:24:33.

will not be able to be shut down. If anybody thinks there would be a

:24:34.:24:38.

closed door cover up, they will be mistaken. It is not just Kensington

:24:39.:24:45.

and Chelsea, you had a number of tower blocks, we have 17 councils,

:24:46.:24:50.

27 social landlords and in the private checks, 12 tower blocks that

:24:51.:24:55.

are owned privately have failed the test in and there is something wrong

:24:56.:25:03.

the testing. It is not the panel, it is the way the experts have adviced

:25:04.:25:06.

the Government to test the panel. The Government have been told by the

:25:07.:25:13.

pecks erts, read -- by Tex perpts they should -- experts they should

:25:14.:25:18.

test the core of the panel, not the whole panel. We need to do proper

:25:19.:25:23.

fire checks on the insulation behind the panels. Again that is something

:25:24.:25:29.

I want to come back to I still want to focus on Kensington and Chelsea,

:25:30.:25:36.

because the Labour councillor Robert Atkinson, said it is time for the

:25:37.:25:40.

senior leadership of the council to go and the cabinet, because they

:25:41.:25:46.

can't command faith in the way they're handling the aftermath of

:25:47.:25:51.

Grenfell Tower. Would you agree? It is not me for to agree or disagree,

:25:52.:25:57.

as I said, I would hope if I was tested this way I wouldn't be

:25:58.:26:01.

running the council meetings like that. It is not just about the

:26:02.:26:07.

running of the meeting, but the way the residents are being treated,

:26:08.:26:10.

they don't feel they're being heard and they're not being housed

:26:11.:26:14.

properly, are they best placed to be handling this, are they doing a good

:26:15.:26:19.

job? I don't know on the ground the exact job they're doing. I know from

:26:20.:26:22.

what I have seen on the media that the people we should be focussing on

:26:23.:26:27.

don't appear to be focussed on the way they should be. The people who

:26:28.:26:33.

need the help do not feel they're getting it, therefore is it a pretty

:26:34.:26:38.

obvious conclusion that the people who should be giving the house are

:26:39.:26:41.

not doing a good job and it is time for someone else to take over? That

:26:42.:26:47.

is for the members of Kensington or the Government to take care of. The

:26:48.:26:51.

Local Government Association does haven't the ability to determine who

:26:52.:26:56.

runs a council. You must are a view when you look at it and see what is

:26:57.:27:02.

happening and there are calls for Nick Paget-Brown to go and others to

:27:03.:27:09.

go, who could make them go? Can anybody make them go? The

:27:10.:27:16.

councillors can do that if they call an emergency motion they can call a

:27:17.:27:22.

motion of no confidence. Or the government can decide it is so bad

:27:23.:27:26.

we are going to put a team of outside people in. And we would help

:27:27.:27:31.

them do that. This is two week on, there are people who are struggling

:27:32.:27:37.

and very unhappy and it doesn't take much thought to work out why. They

:27:38.:27:41.

have lost everything. So two week on, is it time to say, you have had

:27:42.:27:47.

your chance and you have not done what is required. It is time for the

:27:48.:27:55.

member of Kenning sing -- Kensington and Chelsea to decide. I have only

:27:56.:28:01.

seen snippets on the media. I can't offer a reasoned view, it would be

:28:02.:28:06.

unreasonable for me to do and unkind for the victims to offer opinions

:28:07.:28:09.

about who is best placed to run them. The victims are desperate for

:28:10.:28:17.

people in authority to champion what they, how they feel, what they need.

:28:18.:28:23.

We should all be doing that. All the councillors at Kensington and

:28:24.:28:28.

Chelsea and around the country, I don't believe anybody's walking

:28:29.:28:31.

through their normal lives at the moment. My own organisation has had

:28:32.:28:37.

25 member of staff working on this because of the scale of the national

:28:38.:28:41.

issue. I can't just concentrate on one council. I can't put into words

:28:42.:28:46.

how I feel about the victims and how they have been treated now, I can't

:28:47.:28:55.

do that. I would turn into an angry man shouting at the TV. At the

:28:56.:29:00.

moment the biggest issue we are facing as a country, is everyone of

:29:01.:29:05.

the tests has failed. It is not one or two people who has got it wrong,

:29:06.:29:09.

it is everybody according to the people who have done the testing.

:29:10.:29:14.

There are so many, there are so many elements to this, as you point out,

:29:15.:29:20.

because of decision that have been made, councils are caught up in

:29:21.:29:25.

this, people are caught up in this, they're in blocks and fear they're

:29:26.:29:29.

not safe. The people who need help are those who are lost their loved

:29:30.:29:34.

ones and lost everything that they held dear to them. They have got

:29:35.:29:40.

nothing and you said you... You said you turned into an angry man several

:29:41.:29:44.

times shouting at the TV, what has it been that has made you shout at

:29:45.:29:49.

the TV. I can't say, I can't use the language I use when I'm shouting at

:29:50.:29:55.

the TV. What is it that moves you to that? It is the whole thing, it is

:29:56.:30:01.

the... Sadness, the anger, the fear, it is all of it. I have never in all

:30:02.:30:06.

the time I have been in local government I have never experienced

:30:07.:30:09.

the level of emotions that this is taking from people. And the way it

:30:10.:30:13.

has affected everyone. I have seen grown people crying over things they

:30:14.:30:18.

couldn't do and had no power to fix. This is biting into the personal

:30:19.:30:21.

feelings of everybody who sees what is going on.

:30:22.:30:27.

What will put it right for these people? Two weeks on, they don't

:30:28.:30:32.

know where they are going to end up. They don't know if they will get to

:30:33.:30:37.

stay in the local area. They should be able to stay in the accommodation

:30:38.:30:41.

that is available. The trouble is, I don't know what the number of

:30:42.:30:44.

available properties is in Kensington and Chelsea. Because I'm

:30:45.:30:47.

not on the ground, I don't know what stock they have got available to

:30:48.:30:52.

use. I can't answer those questions. Could this, I know that you don't

:30:53.:30:56.

want a kind of say that people in the council have to go but it is

:30:57.:30:59.

hard to imagine why it is taking so long, two weeks. Would other people

:31:00.:31:05.

have done it differently? You have said you would handle the council

:31:06.:31:08.

meeting differently. It is surely not beyond the wit of people to have

:31:09.:31:12.

got together and it is a relatively small group of people, to have just

:31:13.:31:18.

made sure that they were held close, championed, and that they weren't in

:31:19.:31:21.

this position now. I don't disagree with you. So is it time for some to

:31:22.:31:28.

take responsibility for the back that did not happen? The people on

:31:29.:31:33.

the ground need to hold their own people to account. I can't do that.

:31:34.:31:37.

Either the government or the local councillors need to determine who is

:31:38.:31:41.

the right group of people to be running that situation. I'm not that

:31:42.:31:45.

close to it to be able to make that call. I can't do it. The point to me

:31:46.:31:49.

is that we have not said anything in the media at all as an organisation

:31:50.:31:52.

until today because we have been trying to gather the facts across

:31:53.:31:56.

the whole country. This isn't just a few people. It is not coming you

:31:57.:32:02.

know, one borough. We have got 17 councils across the country, 27

:32:03.:32:06.

registered social landlords and at least, at the moment, 12 Private

:32:07.:32:11.

tower blocks where the cladding has failed its tests. I am concerned

:32:12.:32:15.

that the test is not the appropriate test to determine the safety of

:32:16.:32:20.

those buildings. So on that, are you saying that you are concerned that

:32:21.:32:25.

actually, some of the cladding is potentially OK and it does not have

:32:26.:32:29.

to be taken off? Because obviously, this is an enormously expensive and

:32:30.:32:33.

disruptive business. On the basis of the tests being carried out, I don't

:32:34.:32:37.

think it is safe to say the cladding has failed. That cladding has a

:32:38.:32:41.

safety certificate to say it is a safe and appropriate building

:32:42.:32:45.

product. It has a good fire rating. If that is not the case, we have to

:32:46.:32:50.

establish that but we can't do it just by drilling a small sample of

:32:51.:32:54.

the core of the panel. We need to test the whole panel. We also need

:32:55.:32:57.

to test the way the panels are fixed to the walls and we also need to

:32:58.:33:01.

test the insulation that is the cavity fill sitting behind it. That

:33:02.:33:06.

sounds so obvious and yet you are saying that is not the way it is

:33:07.:33:10.

being tested? They are testing the call which is flammable. That is

:33:11.:33:15.

another mess, isn't it? Who is responsible for it being done that

:33:16.:33:20.

way? I'm not an expert and as far as I can see, it is the experts' fault.

:33:21.:33:24.

The government have been advised by experts to do the test this way. I

:33:25.:33:29.

think it is wrong. I think we need to do the tests properly but I'm not

:33:30.:33:40.

an expert. Just on the choice of cladding for Grenfell Tower, it has

:33:41.:33:42.

emerged, according to documents, that the original cladding that was

:33:43.:33:45.

picked which was a think cladding was subsequently rejected and an

:33:46.:33:46.

aluminium cladding was picked instead which saved ?300,000. -- a

:33:47.:33:52.

zinc cladding was subsequently rejected. Was it penny-pinching and

:33:53.:33:56.

if so, can you understand that in the context of a council that was

:33:57.:33:59.

sitting on a cash pile of ?300 million? Erm, look, without going

:34:00.:34:06.

into the complicated argument of the separation of how council finances

:34:07.:34:10.

have do happen and how housing accounts have to be kept separate

:34:11.:34:14.

from the general, normal fund account, the balance is available to

:34:15.:34:17.

them were not ?300 million but they were large. I don't know if the

:34:18.:34:24.

rationale behind the change was one of Finance or for athletics or

:34:25.:34:27.

whatever but if it was changing one product that was suitable for

:34:28.:34:31.

another product that was suitable, that should be the issue. Was the

:34:32.:34:35.

product they put on fit for purpose? That is what we need to establish.

:34:36.:34:39.

Were the panels on that tower fit for purpose and if they are, that

:34:40.:34:44.

means we have a different problem. For the safety of everybody, we need

:34:45.:34:54.

to work out what the problem is, not just jump on one thing, doing

:34:55.:34:56.

inappropriate test and then blame it. We need to look at everything,

:34:57.:34:59.

the insulation that is the cavity fill behind the panels and then we

:35:00.:35:02.

need to look at the panels as a total panel. We need to be able to

:35:03.:35:05.

get somebody basically to put the panel on top of fire and count how

:35:06.:35:09.

long it takes for it burn. Just before we let you go, you have said

:35:10.:35:13.

it is for local people to decide whether those running the council

:35:14.:35:18.

should go, it is not for you to force anyone to go. But obviously,

:35:19.:35:23.

people don't have to be forced out. They can decide to go themselves if

:35:24.:35:26.

they don't feel they have been doing a good job. Presumably people will

:35:27.:35:32.

be reflecting on whether they can actually feel they themselves have

:35:33.:35:34.

done everything that they could. Would you urge people to reflect on

:35:35.:35:41.

whether they have done everything they could? Everybody involved in

:35:42.:35:45.

this, members, officers, they all need to look at themselves in the

:35:46.:35:50.

mirror and say, "Did I do what I thought was right and could I have

:35:51.:35:54.

done it any better?" I can't answer for them. Lord Porter, thank you

:35:55.:35:56.

very much indeed for joining us. Annita is in the BBC

:35:57.:36:04.

Newsroom with a summary Cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower

:36:05.:36:10.

during its refurbishment was changed to a version which cost nearly

:36:11.:36:15.

?300,000 less. Documents seen by the BBC have revealed this. At least 80

:36:16.:36:18.

people were killed when a tower block in West London was destroyed

:36:19.:36:23.

by fire two weeks ago. The documents show officials originally chose a

:36:24.:36:27.

zinc cladding but then decided upon a less fire retardant aluminium

:36:28.:36:31.

version. Kensington and Chelsea Council says safety would not have

:36:32.:36:35.

been compromised to manage budgets. A council meeting to discuss the

:36:36.:36:39.

tragedy was called off last night within minutes of starting after a

:36:40.:36:42.

row broke out over the attendance of members of the public and the press.

:36:43.:36:46.

The council halted the meeting, claiming it would prejudice the

:36:47.:36:50.

forthcoming public inquiry but London mayor Sadiq Khan said the

:36:51.:36:51.

council's decision beggars belief. Meanwhile, a man has been charged

:36:52.:36:53.

with fraud after allegedly claiming he lost family members

:36:54.:36:56.

in the Grenfell Tower fire. Anh Nhu Nguyen, who's 52

:36:57.:36:58.

and of no fixed address, Some news just in, British consumers

:36:59.:37:13.

have suffered the longest decline in their spending power since the

:37:14.:37:18.

1970s, official data has just shown. Household disposable income,

:37:19.:37:21.

adjusted for inflation, fell for the third quarter in a row, the Office

:37:22.:37:24.

for National Statistics said. The parents of ten-month-old Charlie

:37:25.:37:26.

Gard, who fought an unsuccessful legal battle to take him to America

:37:27.:37:28.

for experimental treatment, say he will stop receiving

:37:29.:37:31.

life-support today. Charlie has a rare genetic

:37:32.:37:34.

condition and brain damage. Doctors at Great Ormond

:37:35.:37:36.

Street Hospital said Chris Gard and Connie Yates say

:37:37.:37:39.

they've now been told they will not be able to take their son

:37:40.:37:47.

home to die. The German parliament has voted to

:37:48.:37:56.

legalise same-sex marriage. The bill will grant gay and lesbian couples

:37:57.:38:00.

full marital rights, including child adoption. It had been backed by most

:38:01.:38:05.

of Germany's political parties although it was opposed by

:38:06.:38:08.

conservative allies of Chancellor Merkel. She changed her mind to

:38:09.:38:14.

allow the free vote. That is a summary of the latest news. More at

:38:15.:38:15.

10am. Time for a sports update.

:38:16.:38:23.

In around half an hour, we will see the draw for the first round of

:38:24.:38:26.

Wimbledon taking place ahead of next week's tournament. Johanna Konta and

:38:27.:38:31.

Heather Watson are tuning up nicely, both into the semifinals at the

:38:32.:38:34.

Aegon Championships in Eastbourne. Johanna Konta with two wins

:38:35.:38:37.

yesterday and survived a late injury scare to beat world number one

:38:38.:38:41.

Angelique Kerber. She will play Karolina Pliskova later after

:38:42.:38:45.

Watson's semifinal against Caroline Wozniacki. Men's number one seed

:38:46.:38:49.

Andy Murray's preparations are not going well. He pulled out of his

:38:50.:38:52.

final warm up match at hurling with a sore hip and could not train

:38:53.:38:57.

yesterday. He says it is unlikely and he will be resting again today.

:38:58.:39:01.

British and Irish Lions coach Andy Farrell says it's do or die ahead of

:39:02.:39:04.

the second test against New Zealand tomorrow morning. Defeating

:39:05.:39:07.

Wellington would mean the all Blacks take the series. After signing

:39:08.:39:10.

Jermain Defoe yesterday, Paul Baysse for Bournemouth, they have this --

:39:11.:39:15.

they have signed defender Nathan Ake from Chelsea for a reported 20 -- a

:39:16.:39:19.

reported ?20 million which would be a club record fee. The Dutch

:39:20.:39:22.

international spent half of last season on loan at the vitality

:39:23.:39:26.

stadium. More sport in half an hour, including the Wimbledon draw just

:39:27.:39:27.

after 10am. Next, just three weeks

:39:28.:39:30.

after Jeremy Corbyn's general election success, you may have

:39:31.:39:34.

thought things would have settled But last night, three of his top

:39:35.:39:36.

team were sacked after defying orders during the Queen's Speech

:39:37.:39:40.

amendment votes and backing a call for the UK to stay in the single

:39:41.:39:43.

market after Brexit. Shadow ministers Andy Slaughter,

:39:44.:39:48.

Catherine West and Ruth Cadbury had supported the challenge made

:39:49.:39:52.

by another Labour MP Chuka Umunna. Staying in the single market is not

:39:53.:39:54.

Labour policy and the party's MPs Our political correspondent

:39:55.:39:57.

is Alex Forsyth. What does this say about what is

:39:58.:40:16.

going on within the Labour Party and within Parliament on the whole issue

:40:17.:40:20.

of Brexit and what gets through? I think this lays bare the divisions

:40:21.:40:23.

in the Labour Party over its approach to Brexit. We have long

:40:24.:40:26.

known the Tories are divided over the EU which is usually what we talk

:40:27.:40:30.

about but now we are seeing the differences in Labour and they are

:40:31.:40:34.

subtle. As you say, this amendment was about staying in the single

:40:35.:40:38.

market whereas Labour's official position is about having all the

:40:39.:40:42.

benefits of the single market. Subtle but important. As you say, a

:40:43.:40:51.

number of MPs voted against Jeremy Corbyn's instructions and backed the

:40:52.:40:54.

amendment and we had those sackings and one resignation as a

:40:55.:40:56.

consequence. What is interesting is how Jeremy Corbyn has handled it

:40:57.:40:58.

because we know he has been used to dissenting voices among his own MPs

:40:59.:41:03.

ever since he took over as Labour leader, really. Lots of the

:41:04.:41:06.

parliamentarians in the Labour Party don't necessarily agree with all his

:41:07.:41:09.

views and for a long time they did not support him as leader although

:41:10.:41:12.

now many are falling into line behind him. But what Jeremy Corbyn

:41:13.:41:17.

has done on this occasion is sack people and asserted his authority in

:41:18.:41:21.

a way that he did not really do before the election. I think he

:41:22.:41:25.

feels he has been emboldened by the election result and now has a

:41:26.:41:30.

mandate. What that does not solve is Labour's position on Brexit. Thank

:41:31.:41:31.

you for joining us. The life support system

:41:32.:41:35.

for terminally-ill baby Charlie Gard will be switched off today,

:41:36.:41:38.

after judges at the European Court of Human Rights rejected his

:41:39.:41:41.

parents' plea for them to intervene. Connie Yates and Chris Gard

:41:42.:41:44.

yesterday lost their final legal bid to take their son

:41:45.:41:48.

to the US for treatment. Charlie is thought to be one of 16

:41:49.:41:52.

children in the world to have mitochondrial depletion syndrome,

:41:53.:41:56.

which causes progressive muscle And the court agreed

:41:57.:41:58.

with Great Ormond Street Hospital, saying further treatment

:41:59.:42:05.

would cause him significant harm. After that ruling came in,

:42:06.:42:08.

Connie and Chris took a little time away from their baby's bedside

:42:09.:42:12.

yesterday, to record a message, released on YouTube,

:42:13.:42:14.

for those who've supported them We've been talking

:42:15.:42:16.

with Great Ormond Street since November last year,

:42:17.:42:25.

when they first started talking about court,

:42:26.:42:27.

about what palliative care meant, One option was to let

:42:28.:42:29.

Charlie go in hospital. The other option was to let

:42:30.:42:35.

Charlie go to a hospice. And the third option

:42:36.:42:38.

was to let Charlie go home to So we chose to take

:42:39.:42:41.

Charlie home to die. And we have said this for months,

:42:42.:42:45.

that that is what we want, that is our last wish, if it

:42:46.:42:48.

went this way, the way it's gone. And we've promised our little boy

:42:49.:42:51.

every single day that we will take him home, because that is a promise

:42:52.:42:55.

we thought we could keep. We want to give him a bath at home.

:42:56.:43:00.

We want to sit on the sofa with him. We want to put him in a cot

:43:01.:43:04.

he's never slept in. You know, we had a meeting yesterday

:43:05.:43:10.

where we were told we were going to discuss our options,

:43:11.:43:17.

and you know, we said we'd If that's not possible,

:43:18.:43:20.

can we take him to a hospice? They said no to both,

:43:21.:43:26.

he has to die in They said they couldn't

:43:27.:43:29.

get transport to take us home, so we've offered

:43:30.:43:33.

to pay for that privately, with a private team,

:43:34.:43:36.

and they said that's not an option. You know, I'm sure you read

:43:37.:43:41.

in the media that they've come out and said there's no rush,

:43:42.:43:46.

no rush to do all this. We're working closely

:43:47.:43:51.

with the family to arrange We've literally begged them

:43:52.:43:53.

to give us this weekend. Some of our family

:43:54.:43:59.

and friends can't come. The last time they saw

:44:00.:44:01.

Charlie will be the last And he's still so stable -

:44:02.:44:06.

that's what's so hard. As you probably see on our T-shirts,

:44:07.:44:12.

if he's still fighting, And he's still fighting over there,

:44:13.:44:19.

believe me, he's still fighting. He's a little fighter,

:44:20.:44:24.

a little trooper and a soldier. And he's still fighting,

:44:25.:44:26.

but we're not allowed Our parental rights have

:44:27.:44:30.

been stripped away. We can't even take our

:44:31.:44:33.

own son home to die. Do you not think we've

:44:34.:44:36.

been put through enough? Our final wish, if it all went

:44:37.:44:40.

against us, and we've had this conversation many times, if we lose,

:44:41.:44:47.

can we take our little boy home to The 4th of August 2016 was the best

:44:48.:44:50.

day of our lives, the The 30th of June 2017

:44:51.:44:56.

is going to be the We know what day our

:44:57.:45:01.

son's going to die. We don't even get a say

:45:02.:45:12.

in what happens to him. Charlie will die in Great Ormond

:45:13.:45:14.

Street Hospital tomorrow. Thank you, everyone

:45:15.:45:18.

for all your support. A month ago, Connie

:45:19.:45:24.

and Chris were here with us on Victoria Derbyshire to talk

:45:25.:45:27.

about their fight for Charlie. Victoria began by asking them

:45:28.:45:29.

what the chance of taking him to America for treatment would mean

:45:30.:45:32.

to them. It's literally life

:45:33.:45:35.

or death, isn't it? So, if we don't get this

:45:36.:45:38.

opportunity, he's going to die. So, he hasn't got

:45:39.:45:40.

anything to lose, and we know that, even if it doesn't work,

:45:41.:45:45.

which I think it will, we know that we've done everything

:45:46.:45:49.

that we can for him. Like, we don't want to

:45:50.:45:53.

live with that what if. They could have tried

:45:54.:45:57.

the treatment here. And you know, we've had

:45:58.:46:02.

to stomach the fact that they OK, we don't agree with that,

:46:03.:46:04.

but we have to accept that. But the fact that they

:46:05.:46:09.

are blocking us from taking him to another hospital

:46:10.:46:13.

in the world with one of the leading I still to this day cannot

:46:14.:46:16.

get my head around. They don't want to do

:46:17.:46:23.

the treatment, but there is somewhere around there that does,

:46:24.:46:31.

and they basically just kept him a prisoner there,

:46:32.:46:33.

and our parental rights have been completely stripped,

:46:34.:46:36.

the minute we took him in there, in hindsight,

:46:37.:46:39.

we lost him, because, They've got complete

:46:40.:46:41.

responsibility for him. When we got the appeal papers,

:46:42.:46:47.

it says Connie Yates and Chris Gard versus Great Ormond

:46:48.:46:50.

Street Hospital and Charlie Gard, It broke my heart when I

:46:51.:46:52.

saw that, because how We are the ones that sit

:46:53.:46:58.

there with him, day in, day out, we are staying 24

:46:59.:47:02.

hours at the moment. We love him with all our hearts,

:47:03.:47:05.

and we can't take him to somewhere that may save

:47:06.:47:10.

and improve his life. And we will fight to the bitter end

:47:11.:47:14.

for him, and you know, whatever we have to go

:47:15.:47:18.

through to get the chance that he needs, we are more

:47:19.:47:22.

than willing to do, because They talk about their parental

:47:23.:47:43.

rights having been stripped, why did they not have the right to do what

:47:44.:47:48.

they thought was best for their son. It is a very sad case and people ask

:47:49.:47:52.

why don't they have the right to do twla they want with their child and

:47:53.:47:57.

decide what they think is in his interests. The law is clear the

:47:58.:48:02.

rights of child take precedence over the rights of adult and after the

:48:03.:48:08.

court has determined and a succession of courts have determined

:48:09.:48:12.

what the best interests are for Charlie Gard, then those rights take

:48:13.:48:17.

priority. The courts have decided it is in his best interest to have

:48:18.:48:23.

palliative care and he could be exposed to suffering and be in

:48:24.:48:27.

distress, although we can't tell because of his condition, because he

:48:28.:48:32.

is being artificially kept alive. The courts are arguing on his behalf

:48:33.:48:37.

against the parents. So what happens now, the life support will be

:48:38.:48:44.

switched off today. Great Ormond Street after the European court

:48:45.:48:49.

declined to take the case, because they backed the British court,

:48:50.:48:53.

because they would not rush to change charm's care, but --

:48:54.:48:57.

Charlie's care, but they have been saying it is in his best interest to

:48:58.:49:02.

allow him to die with dignity. While not pushing the parents into making

:49:03.:49:06.

the decision with undue speed they have been saying it's time to

:49:07.:49:10.

consider this and to do it and it seems Charlie's parents have

:49:11.:49:15.

accepted this will happen today. You said there have been court rulings

:49:16.:49:19.

on cases where there has been a conflict over what is the in the

:49:20.:49:25.

child's best interest, does this case push any new boundaries in

:49:26.:49:32.

terms of where the rights lie? No, but it underlines clearly that where

:49:33.:49:37.

the courts are concerned that there is a difference between what the

:49:38.:49:41.

parents think is in the best interest and what the courts decide

:49:42.:49:50.

ultimately the courts will prevail. Great Ormond Street say, as with all

:49:51.:49:54.

patients, they are not able to discuss the specific details, they

:49:55.:50:00.

say it is a distressing situation for Charlie's parents and the staff

:50:01.:50:03.

and their focus remains with them. Thank you. The number of women

:50:04.:50:20.

having a cervical smear test are falling. We will talk about that.

:50:21.:50:27.

Let us know your thoughts, have you ever deliberately not gone for a

:50:28.:50:32.

smear test. Because you were worried about what it might be like. Do let

:50:33.:50:36.

us know your thoughts on that. Knife crime is returning

:50:37.:50:40.

to the levels of six years ago - signalling the end to a long,

:50:41.:50:43.

slow fall that had been In London, the picture is shocking -

:50:44.:50:45.

with four people killed Ten teenagers have been stabbed

:50:46.:50:49.

to death in the capital this year. And in other parts of

:50:50.:50:54.

the country is no less bleak. In the West Midlands, for example,

:50:55.:50:57.

the number of knife crimes has more So why's it happening

:50:58.:51:01.

and what can be done about it? With me in the studio

:51:02.:51:06.

is Aaron Douglas-Letts, whose younger brother was murdered

:51:07.:51:10.

last April, Noel Williams who mentors young people

:51:11.:51:12.

looking to leave gang life, Chief Superintendant John Sutherland

:51:13.:51:16.

from the Met Police and in our studio in Londonderry

:51:17.:51:21.

is Michelle McPhillips, whose son JJ was stabbed

:51:22.:51:24.

and killed earlier this year. If I can come to you Aaron, your

:51:25.:51:39.

older brother was stabbed and killed this year. So you have had obviously

:51:40.:51:43.

been touched in the worst possible way by this. What are your thoughts

:51:44.:51:51.

on what is going on? Well, knife crime right now, it's always been

:51:52.:51:57.

around, but now it is at an all time high and it is becoming ridiculous

:51:58.:52:07.

why these young people are dying. My brother lost his life just over a

:52:08.:52:11.

year ago. He was not in a gang. He was a young guy coming to the

:52:12.:52:14.

transition of what he wanted to do with his life A trainee electrician

:52:15.:52:21.

and he lost his life. The way he lost his life was, it was very grim,

:52:22.:52:26.

it was in the afternoon, in broad daylight, not far from a school and

:52:27.:52:34.

you know not far from where the London mayor, Siddique Khan was

:52:35.:52:38.

living, he lost his life there and even until today we are trying to

:52:39.:52:43.

find answers, why is this thing happening in the way it is. We have

:52:44.:52:48.

a picture of your brother there. You told us a bit about him. Tell us a

:52:49.:52:55.

bit more. Lewis, he was a normal child, his dad passed away, his mum

:52:56.:53:00.

was a hard-working, she worked for the borough and he grew up in a nice

:53:01.:53:06.

home, he loved animals, he wanted to do something with his life and he

:53:07.:53:11.

got caught up in this knife crime, because he was at the wrong place at

:53:12.:53:16.

the wrong time and he was innocents and he lost his life. Michelle, your

:53:17.:53:23.

son was stabbed to death this year, our condolences go to you for your

:53:24.:53:28.

loss, tell us what happened to your son and what your thoughts are on

:53:29.:53:35.

kids carrying knives. My son Jonathan was standing on the steps

:53:36.:53:39.

of town hall, he had gone out for the first time in two years for a

:53:40.:53:45.

night out with his cousins and he approached a car where some six

:53:46.:53:49.

people had surrounded a car with knives and were giving chase to

:53:50.:53:52.

people. He obviously felt safe enough to go forward to give help

:53:53.:53:58.

and they stabbed him straight in the heart. Knife crime is on the rise

:53:59.:54:05.

again and it had been falling, I mean, is it an issue that you're

:54:06.:54:11.

looking at in the broader sense as a result of what happened to your

:54:12.:54:16.

family, or do you just kind of sort of obviously have to deal with it in

:54:17.:54:22.

a personal way, do you have thoughts on the broader issues? The broader

:54:23.:54:31.

issue is I'm now on the streets in the borough where I live trying to

:54:32.:54:37.

get knife awareness, until my son got stabbed, I wasn't involved in

:54:38.:54:41.

this, people look at it like it was another gang member, my son wasn't

:54:42.:54:46.

in a gang and the more of the parents that I speak to, they're not

:54:47.:54:53.

gang-related, they have just got caught up in something. My son was

:54:54.:54:58.

where he was always, in upper Street where we have lived for 45 years.

:54:59.:55:01.

The people in the wrong place at the wrong time doing wrong were the

:55:02.:55:04.

people that turned up with the knives. What is the answer? I don't

:55:05.:55:11.

know what the answer is. I think it is a very long slow process to get

:55:12.:55:16.

an answer. I think stop and search needs to come back in and has to be

:55:17.:55:22.

done in the hotspot areas and it has to be taken and done to the people

:55:23.:55:30.

that are highlights the fact they're carrying knives and stop glamorising

:55:31.:55:36.

it and put knives in a specialist shop if you want to buy a knife of a

:55:37.:55:41.

certain size, you have to go with ID and show it. At the moment, where

:55:42.:55:46.

are the knives coming from? Where on earth do you get a zombie knife and

:55:47.:55:52.

why would you carry one to walk around the street. Noel, Michelle

:55:53.:55:59.

and Aaron both saying their loved ones were not in gangs, you have

:56:00.:56:06.

experience of gang life and work with youths in terms of youth

:56:07.:56:13.

justice to try to change things, what is it about, what is going on?

:56:14.:56:20.

Obviously, this thing of people getting caught up in a situation

:56:21.:56:24.

where people have knives, why are they carrying them? It is a

:56:25.:56:27.

difficult thing to sorts of get your mind around. I don't think we can

:56:28.:56:35.

put one thing on it. You hear young people say they're scared and a lot

:56:36.:56:40.

of people are already involved in this activity through their parents,

:56:41.:56:44.

brothers, cousins, so it is generational. People are carrying

:56:45.:56:49.

knives. To be frank when they're carrying the knives, as the woman

:56:50.:56:54.

has just alluded to, a lot of people are committing crime with these

:56:55.:56:58.

knives and I'm sure when that car was surrounded, they did to maybe

:56:59.:57:03.

take the car or harm people in the car. We are not condoning that, what

:57:04.:57:10.

I feel is for young people if you get caught with with a knife, we

:57:11.:57:14.

have a law and you go to prison and you come out. To curb this epidemic,

:57:15.:57:22.

we need to work with business, innovation and create skills and

:57:23.:57:26.

opportunities for people not to be sitting idle in the same place and

:57:27.:57:31.

lack of a cliche, not to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. We

:57:32.:57:35.

need to put them in different places and teach them different skims so

:57:36.:57:40.

they don't -- skills so they don't feel like walking around glamor

:57:41.:57:48.

wising it, I think the media have a role, young people killed somebody

:57:49.:57:53.

again, I know John will have his word, talk to a man like John and

:57:54.:57:59.

even he feels it is time to maybe do some different approaches. John,

:58:00.:58:04.

what do you think could be done? I think... I'm not just a policeman,

:58:05.:58:12.

I'm a resident of this city and a dad. There must be a short and a

:58:13.:58:16.

long-term approach. From a police point of view, the greatest

:58:17.:58:21.

responsibility that a police officer has, and the greatest privilege a

:58:22.:58:28.

police officer has is to save lives. That is what we have going to be

:58:29.:58:34.

doing in the short-term n partnership with youth workers and

:58:35.:58:38.

stop and search is important. My experience in nearly 25 years, stop

:58:39.:58:42.

and search used properly saves lives. But we are kidding ourselves

:58:43.:58:46.

if we think that is the whole answer. It is a short-term means of

:58:47.:58:50.

stopping young people stabbing young people. In the longer term we have

:58:51.:58:54.

got to understand the reasons why young people are picking up knives

:58:55.:58:58.

and using them in the first place. We have got to be prepared as a

:58:59.:59:03.

whole society to adopt a long-term approach. The London mayor says ?22

:59:04.:59:12.

million has been cut from youth groups since 2011 and 30 youth

:59:13.:59:17.

centres have closed. Is that feeding into it. Yes austerity is key on all

:59:18.:59:23.

fronts, as well as the police losing 20,000 people. These are things that

:59:24.:59:28.

have an effect on how things will go forward. Lewis was a lovely young

:59:29.:59:36.

man and I worked with him and he reaped the benefits of a charity we

:59:37.:59:40.

had that was closed down and a year and a half later from that I'm sure

:59:41.:59:45.

you can allude to it more, but young people have to come to family

:59:46.:59:50.

members to try and further their skills in whatever career they

:59:51.:59:54.

wanted to, because we don't have the places to help people. What do you

:59:55.:00:03.

think? The summer holidays are coming up and young people need

:00:04.:00:08.

something to do. These schemes are not reaching the young people, even

:00:09.:00:12.

if you have events in place or plans to do for the summer, they're not

:00:13.:00:18.

seeing it. They are not aware it will happen, so we need to reach out

:00:19.:00:23.

to young people and make them aware by using social media, not just the

:00:24.:00:28.

young people are not reading newspaper and they're on web-sites

:00:29.:00:33.

and looking for way out, but nay need too see -- they need to see

:00:34.:00:39.

what is available via social media. Thank you all very much for joining

:00:40.:00:43.

us and sharing your thoughts on that. If you have any thoughts get

:00:44.:00:46.

in touch. Now the weather. The weather is improving as we head

:00:47.:00:58.

to the course of the weekend but for today, a mixed picture out there. We

:00:59.:01:03.

can see that in the Weather Watchers pictures coming in, contrasting Kent

:01:04.:01:08.

to cloudier, damp conditions in North Wales. We are seeing quite a

:01:09.:01:14.

lot of cloud with drizzly outbreaks of rain across Scotland, northern

:01:15.:01:17.

England, down across Wales and the south-west, quite blustery year. In

:01:18.:01:21.

the south-east, sunnier spells but also the chance of a few scattered,

:01:22.:01:27.

heavy showers. Temperature is about 14-16 in the north and west. Into

:01:28.:01:32.

the south-east, 23 degrees or so but some isolated showers that could be

:01:33.:01:35.

quite heavy. Showers will ease for most of us into this evening, a bit

:01:36.:01:42.

of rain for Central and eastern England but tomorrow, rain clearing

:01:43.:01:45.

away quickly and we are back to drier weather and spells of

:01:46.:01:47.

sunshine, turning breezy and damp again for Scotland and Northern

:01:48.:01:50.

Ireland later in the afternoon but with sunnier spells, highs of around

:01:51.:01:54.

24. Sunday, foremost, looks like another dry bright day. -- for most

:01:55.:01:57.

of us. Hello, it's Friday, it's 10 o'clock,

:01:58.:02:02.

I'm Joanna Gosling. Documents seen by BBC News suggest

:02:03.:02:05.

the cladding recently fitted on Grenfell Tower was

:02:06.:02:07.

nearly ?300,000 cheaper This latest development

:02:08.:02:09.

in the fire's aftermath comes as a council meeting last night

:02:10.:02:12.

descended into chaos. An absolute fiasco, this is why I'm

:02:13.:02:16.

calling for your resignation, not because of what happened

:02:17.:02:20.

with the fire, but the sheer and ongoing incompetence that this

:02:21.:02:24.

council has shown ever There is anger this morning here in

:02:25.:02:38.

North Kensington with this apparent confirmation that money was saved

:02:39.:02:42.

during the refurbishment of this building. People here want to know

:02:43.:02:43.

why. The number of women having a smear

:02:44.:02:44.

test to screen for cervical A leading cancer charity says more

:02:45.:02:49.

than a quarter of those due one are not even aware they can be

:02:50.:02:53.

tested for the disease. Donald Trump's travel ban takes

:02:54.:02:57.

effect after months of controversy. People from six mainly Muslim

:02:58.:03:00.

countries and all refugees will now face a tougher time getting

:03:01.:03:02.

into the US. The president says it's

:03:03.:03:04.

designed to stop terrorism. Also as the President is criticised

:03:05.:03:08.

for another personal attack on an American newsreader,

:03:09.:03:12.

we'll discuss the reaction Annita is in the BBC

:03:13.:03:14.

Newsroom with a summary Cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower

:03:15.:03:27.

during its refurbishment was changed to a version which cost nearly

:03:28.:03:35.

?300,000 less, documents seen At least 80 people were

:03:36.:03:38.

killed when the tower block in West London was destroyed

:03:39.:03:44.

by fire two weeks ago. The documents show officials

:03:45.:03:47.

originally chose a zinc cladding but then decided

:03:48.:03:50.

upon a less fire retardant aluminium Kensington and Chelsea Council says

:03:51.:03:53.

safety would not have The chairman of the Local Government

:03:54.:04:06.

Association said more needs to be done to identify the root cause of

:04:07.:04:09.

problems. I don't know whether the rationale behind the change was one

:04:10.:04:13.

for finance or ascetics or whatever but if it was changing one product

:04:14.:04:16.

that was suitable for another product that was suitable, that

:04:17.:04:21.

should be the issue. Was the product they put on fit for purpose? That is

:04:22.:04:25.

what we need to establish. Are the panels on that tower fit for

:04:26.:04:29.

purpose? If they are, that means we have a different problem and for the

:04:30.:04:33.

safety of everybody, we need to work out what that problem is, not just

:04:34.:04:38.

jump on one thing, do an inappropriate test and then blame

:04:39.:04:41.

it. We need to look at everything, the installation that is the cavity

:04:42.:04:46.

fill behind the panels, and we need to look at the panels as a total

:04:47.:04:50.

panel. We need to be able to get someone basically to put the panel

:04:51.:04:54.

on top of fire and see how long it takes for to burn.

:04:55.:04:58.

A council meeting to discuss the tragedy was called off last

:04:59.:05:01.

night within minutes of starting after a row broke out over

:05:02.:05:04.

the attendance of members of the public and the press.

:05:05.:05:06.

The council halted the meeting, claiming it would prejudice

:05:07.:05:08.

the forthcoming public inquiry but London mayor Sadiq Khan

:05:09.:05:10.

said the council's decision beggars belief.

:05:11.:05:12.

Meanwhile, a man has been charged with fraud after allegedly claiming

:05:13.:05:14.

he lost family members in the Grenfell Tower fire.

:05:15.:05:17.

Anh Nhu Nguyen, who's 52 and of no fixed address,

:05:18.:05:20.

The parents of ten-month-old Charlie Gard, who fought an unsuccessful

:05:21.:05:30.

legal battle to take him to America for experimental treatment, say he

:05:31.:05:36.

will stop receiving life support today.

:05:37.:05:38.

Charlie has a rare genetic condition and brain damage.

:05:39.:05:40.

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital said

:05:41.:05:42.

Chris Gard and Connie Yates say they've now been told they will not

:05:43.:05:48.

be able to take their son home to die.

:05:49.:05:52.

The German parliament has voted to legalise same-sex marriage.

:05:53.:05:55.

The bill will grant gay and lesbian couples

:05:56.:05:59.

full marital rights, including child adoption.

:06:00.:06:01.

It had been backed by most of Germany's political parties

:06:02.:06:04.

although it was opposed by conservative allies of Chancellor

:06:05.:06:06.

She changed her mind to allow a free vote.

:06:07.:06:13.

Our Berlin correspondent Jenny Hill Thomas Moore. This all happened in a

:06:14.:06:19.

very last minute and dramatic fashion. Earlier this week, Mrs

:06:20.:06:23.

Merkel gave an interview during which she appeared to drop her

:06:24.:06:27.

long-standing opposition to same-sex marriage and said that she would

:06:28.:06:31.

give her MPs a free vote on the subject. That allowed her left-wing,

:06:32.:06:37.

the political left here, opposition to effectively jump at the chance to

:06:38.:06:40.

push through a bill they have been trying to get into Parliament for

:06:41.:06:45.

many years. They managed to do it right at the last minute. Parliament

:06:46.:06:49.

goes on its summer holidays tomorrow. Mrs Merkel, because she

:06:50.:06:53.

had allowed her MPs a free vote, effectively gave Parliamentary

:06:54.:06:54.

approval. Jenny Hill, there. Let's get a sports update.

:06:55.:07:11.

Good morning again, we're patiently awaiting the draw for the first

:07:12.:07:14.

round of Wimbledon, things just getting underway at the All-England

:07:15.:07:17.

Club and we will have details for you later but there are high hopes

:07:18.:07:20.

for British players next week, Johanna Konta's grass court form is

:07:21.:07:25.

steadily improving as she reached the semifinals of the Aegon

:07:26.:07:27.

Championships in Eastbourne yesterday, getting past the French

:07:28.:07:31.

Open champion, Jelena Ostapenko in three sets before a quarterfinal

:07:32.:07:33.

against the world number one Angelique Kerber. Johanna Konta took

:07:34.:07:38.

the first set 6-3, playing very well. She fell heavily on match

:07:39.:07:43.

point in the second set. The match was delayed for ten minutes as she

:07:44.:07:47.

was treated. But she recovered to eventually take her fourth match

:07:48.:07:52.

point and the second set, 6-4. A good win for her. Heather Watson is

:07:53.:07:58.

also doing very well, also into the last four having beaten Barbora

:07:59.:08:01.

Strycova. She will take on former world number one Caroline Wozniacki

:08:02.:08:05.

later. Johanna Konta will face third seed Karolina Pliskova.

:08:06.:08:09.

Andy Murray should have been playing an exhibition match in London today

:08:10.:08:13.

but has pulled out with a sore hip. He is due to start a practice

:08:14.:08:17.

session this morning at Wimbledon but his coach Ivan Lendl told our

:08:18.:08:20.

correspondent David Ornstein today that Andy Murray was doing great so

:08:21.:08:24.

we will keep our fingers crossed for the defending Wimbledon champion and

:08:25.:08:28.

world number one. Alex Ward, the world number 855, is

:08:29.:08:32.

the only Briton to come through singles qualifying for Wimbledon,

:08:33.:08:38.

coming from a set down to beat Russia's Teymuraz Gabashvili in four

:08:39.:08:41.

set at Roehampton. He was given a wild card to play in qualifying and

:08:42.:08:45.

had lost his last seven straight matches before this week so a great

:08:46.:08:50.

result for him. You can watch you Hannah quanta and Heather Watson in

:08:51.:08:53.

Eastbourne action on BBC Two this morning from 11am. In rugby union, a

:08:54.:08:59.

crucial game coming up for the British and Irish Lions and Warren

:09:00.:09:02.

Gatland's selection for the second Test against New Zealand has been

:09:03.:09:07.

somewhat criticised. Former Wales international Jonathan Davies things

:09:08.:09:10.

Gatland is using the last role of the dice by putting Johnny Sexton

:09:11.:09:14.

and Owen Farrell together. Former Lions player Jeremy Guscott think

:09:15.:09:17.

the decision is ambitious, calling it a gamble. The Lions must win

:09:18.:09:20.

tomorrow morning in Wellington or they will hand the all Blacks this

:09:21.:09:25.

series win. It is about character this week for us. It is about

:09:26.:09:33.

manning up and putting everything on the line because it is that

:09:34.:09:40.

situation, isn't it? It is do or die for us. There is nothing a mother

:09:41.:09:44.

wouldn't do for their son, even if you are a grown man playing in a

:09:45.:09:48.

professional golf tournament. China's Lee Hao-tong Li his putter

:09:49.:09:52.

into the water at the 11th at the French Open after a bit of a tantrum

:09:53.:09:57.

and about 20 minutes later, his mum waded into needy water to find it.

:09:58.:10:01.

She attracted a bit of attention from the other players on the course

:10:02.:10:05.

as they watched. She found the putter, but realised it had been

:10:06.:10:09.

broken into macro, her efforts sending some of the players into

:10:10.:10:14.

fits of laughter as they watched her efforts. Listen, if I dropped my

:10:15.:10:17.

life savings into the bottom of the pond, I think my mum would be

:10:18.:10:21.

getting in there, I don't think. She deserves a medal for her efforts.

:10:22.:10:26.

News just in, Andy Murray will face either a qualifier or a lucky loser

:10:27.:10:29.

in the first round of Wimbledon. More on that draw later in the hour.

:10:30.:10:38.

Fresh controversy this morning in the Grenfell Tower aftermath, it

:10:39.:10:42.

seems the cladding due to be originally installed on the high

:10:43.:10:45.

rise was changed to a version which cost nearly ?300,000 less. The

:10:46.:10:48.

cladding is thought to have contributed to the rapid spread of

:10:49.:10:51.

the fire that consumed the 24 story block two weeks ago. Nick Beake is

:10:52.:10:59.

in west London for us. So, a lot has been emerging about the choices that

:11:00.:11:03.

were made and what happened at the tower block. What is the reaction to

:11:04.:11:06.

the latest report that the cladding was changed and nearly ?300,000 was

:11:07.:11:15.

saved as a result? People are extremely angry you. Remember, the

:11:16.:11:18.

refurbishment cost ?10 million and as part of it, the cladding was put

:11:19.:11:21.

on the side of the building. We at the reason for that was to improve

:11:22.:11:24.

insulation but also to the appearance of the building.

:11:25.:11:28.

Crucially, though, residents were told the cladding would-be zinc. But

:11:29.:11:36.

the BBC has seen the documents from 2014 that show quite clearly the

:11:37.:11:39.

list of potential savings was put forward and within that, the

:11:40.:11:42.

decision was taken, it would appear, not to go with zinc cladding, which

:11:43.:11:47.

had a fire retardant CORBA to go with aluminium cladding instead.

:11:48.:11:52.

That -- a fire retardant for but to go with aluminium cladding which

:11:53.:11:59.

would have saved almost ?300,000, the documents suggest. It is not in

:12:00.:12:03.

any way suggested that fire safety regulations were diminished or that

:12:04.:12:06.

this was done to reduce fire safety by the BBC has been told a key

:12:07.:12:10.

consideration in this was to save money and so it appears this

:12:11.:12:13.

decision was taken. It is worth pointing out that the material that

:12:14.:12:19.

went up is in the same kind of bracket as other materials the

:12:20.:12:21.

company which was responsible for installing the cladding could put

:12:22.:12:26.

on. It was the same kind of European standard but as we know, the police

:12:27.:12:29.

have subsequently said the cladding that went up on Grenfell Tower

:12:30.:12:33.

failed a safety test. It is still unclear as to whether that cladding

:12:34.:12:39.

was legal or not for a tower block like that. They're just does not

:12:40.:12:45.

seem to be a definitive answer. -- they're just does not. Know, and for

:12:46.:12:49.

lots of people living in North Kensington, there is confusion

:12:50.:12:52.

because on the one hand, we hear that as I mentioned, the kind of

:12:53.:12:56.

material that was going up during the refurbishment was at the

:12:57.:12:59.

appropriate European safety level. But subsequently, the police have

:13:00.:13:02.

said it has failed a fire safety test and we have seen countless

:13:03.:13:05.

other blocks across the country where that has been deemed to be the

:13:06.:13:09.

case. Obviously, a criminal investigation is going on and the

:13:10.:13:20.

public inquiry to come, where these questions will be looked at in

:13:21.:13:22.

detail but for people here who remain angry, many out of a home,

:13:23.:13:25.

and dealing with the huge tragedy of what is going on, grieving, this

:13:26.:13:27.

adds to the confusion but also today, with this confirmation that

:13:28.:13:29.

potentially ?300,000 was saved, it underlines and maybe reinforces

:13:30.:13:32.

suspicions people had that there was a possibility of saving money during

:13:33.:13:36.

this refurbishment. Thank you for joining us.

:13:37.:13:39.

Dr Ahmed Kazmi is a GP at a surgery close to Grenfell Tower,

:13:40.:13:42.

He's spent the last fortnight supporting his patients

:13:43.:13:46.

who have lost loved ones, been left homeless or coming

:13:47.:13:48.

to terms with witnessing the horrors of the fire,

:13:49.:13:50.

and is also working with the police who are trying

:13:51.:13:53.

Thank you for joining us. I think at least ten of your patients died in

:13:54.:14:03.

the tower, is that right? We are still awaiting confirmation but we

:14:04.:14:07.

think that will be the number from the surgery. So tell us more about

:14:08.:14:11.

what you have done since the fire. On the morning of the fire, it was

:14:12.:14:15.

quite an interesting day and if you will allow me, I wanted to share my

:14:16.:14:18.

experience of being at the rescue centre. I know there has been a lot

:14:19.:14:23.

of talk recently about some of the more controversial aspects of the

:14:24.:14:26.

Grenfell Tower fire but I actually had quite a profoundly moving

:14:27.:14:30.

experience in the rescue centre. You know, I went in there not sure what

:14:31.:14:34.

to expect or what state I would find people in but the unity and the

:14:35.:14:38.

solidarity that I felt there, and the way everyone was so dignified

:14:39.:14:42.

and coming together, the local residents as well as the local

:14:43.:14:45.

population and people from further afield, it was really quite

:14:46.:14:49.

beautiful to witness. I certainly hadn't ever felt as proud to be a

:14:50.:14:52.

member of that area as I was that day and I think that is a real

:14:53.:14:56.

credit to the residents and the people. I wanted to share that. I

:14:57.:15:00.

think everyone has taken heart from how people have come together on the

:15:01.:15:05.

ground. Definitely. It is always a good thing to see. But in terms of

:15:06.:15:10.

what your patients need now, are they coming to the surgery as a

:15:11.:15:16.

point of contact? What are they coming about? Their main needs are

:15:17.:15:20.

twofold. On the one hand, practical issues like housing and clothing and

:15:21.:15:26.

money and passports, appointments, medication. You have got all of

:15:27.:15:29.

those kind of things that you require when you are starting from

:15:30.:15:32.

scratch again. On the other side of that also is the emotional support,

:15:33.:15:36.

the psychological support that comes from the consequences of having had

:15:37.:15:42.

a catastrophic event occur. What has been again quite heartening to see

:15:43.:15:46.

is that I have had lots of patients coming who have had positive

:15:47.:15:51.

experiences of help Sith Grenfell Tower -- since Grenfell Tower. I

:15:52.:15:54.

spoke to a lady who used to be resident in the tower and I asked

:15:55.:15:57.

what she was doing for clothes and money and whether she was OK and she

:15:58.:16:00.

was proud to say, she pointed to her dress and said she had had donations

:16:01.:16:03.

and now she had received money and she could go shopping. Another lady,

:16:04.:16:08.

I asked if the paperwork was OK and she had documents and she said she

:16:09.:16:11.

was happy because she'd gone to the Westway Centre and in one day, they

:16:12.:16:15.

turned around and gave her a passport. I think it is important to

:16:16.:16:18.

mention as well because sometimes we just talk about the things that have

:16:19.:16:19.

not worked. On mental health, we have heard

:16:20.:16:30.

people speaking, clearly traumatised, they need support, are

:16:31.:16:35.

you the first point of contact, are you able to get quick referrals,

:16:36.:16:39.

because you know in the normal scheme of things a referral takes a

:16:40.:16:47.

long time. You're right and under usual circumstances, people often

:16:48.:16:52.

wait. The primary mental health team have done a lovely job and there is

:16:53.:16:57.

a 24 hour telephone line, you can see the GP and there is a single

:16:58.:17:02.

point of entry access to mental health care. That support is on

:17:03.:17:06.

hand. I would again want to share with people that I think there is a

:17:07.:17:11.

risk to make pathological what is actually normal sometimes. So when

:17:12.:17:17.

you're faced with this degree of catastrophe, to have bad dreams, in

:17:18.:17:23.

the short-term, for the immediate weeks after it to have a sense of

:17:24.:17:28.

panic to grieve, all these are normal emotions to have in relation

:17:29.:17:33.

to that event. I would encourage people to speak to their GP and the

:17:34.:17:42.

mental health care, for most people the initial involvement will be what

:17:43.:17:47.

we call watchful waiting, you offer support and witness their grief, but

:17:48.:17:51.

a large number of these will resolve by themselves. It is more

:17:52.:17:56.

individuals at high risk of post-traumatic stress disorder, if

:17:57.:18:02.

you had a preexisting mental health condition or have had experience of

:18:03.:18:08.

tragedy, they are at risk of having an unusual or prolonged response to

:18:09.:18:13.

this. So we try to involve specialists early on. You're

:18:14.:18:18.

involved in helping to identify the bodies, what are you doing in that

:18:19.:18:23.

context? That is a bit of a difficult question to answer, I'm

:18:24.:18:26.

not sure how much I'm allowed to say, because of the nature of the

:18:27.:18:33.

disaster, sometimes identifying it difficult. There were so many

:18:34.:18:38.

children involved and may not have seen a dentist and there is no

:18:39.:18:44.

dentist records. So we will try and get a blood test. So it is trying to

:18:45.:18:49.

marry the information that the primary care team has that may use

:18:50.:18:56.

to the police to identify people. Do you have, based on the conversations

:18:57.:19:01.

that you have had of you on what the final death toll might be, that is,

:19:02.:19:05.

there is so much frustration around this? No, I think most people who

:19:06.:19:11.

live and work in the area, myself included, do believe that the death

:19:12.:19:16.

toll will continue to rise. I understand the logistics of trying

:19:17.:19:20.

to get that number is complicated and difficult. So I don't know will

:19:21.:19:24.

have to happen to get a count. But we are expecting to see it rise. If

:19:25.:19:31.

it is OK I want to give a couple of practical tips for the dispossessed.

:19:32.:19:37.

One problem that GPs have faced in is in contacting their patients.

:19:38.:19:41.

Many people change their telephone number and don't update wit the GP.

:19:42.:19:46.

We go to ring them and the number is out of service and we can't write to

:19:47.:19:52.

them. If I urge anyone dispossessed if you were a resident at Gren,

:19:53.:20:00.

contact your GP and let them know you have been dispossessed. And give

:20:01.:20:04.

them details. A lot of vulnerable people lived in the blocks and they

:20:05.:20:08.

have been moved and some didn't have immediate next of kin. Contacting

:20:09.:20:14.

them is really difficult for GPs. So if anyone is aware if you have a

:20:15.:20:18.

friend or relative who has been moved, give their GP a call. Are you

:20:19.:20:22.

worried about these people who have gone off the radar? Yes, 100%, that

:20:23.:20:30.

is one of biggest obstacles we have faced is first working out who is

:20:31.:20:37.

deceased and who is alive and who is alive how we contact them. We came

:20:38.:20:41.

up with a list of people resident in the tower and we rang them to do

:20:42.:20:49.

comfort calls. A man had changed his number, we can't write to him, we

:20:50.:20:53.

have to wait for them to come into the surgery and we with mark them

:20:54.:21:03.

safe. But we have a raft of support to share, for Social Services and

:21:04.:21:08.

housing and mental health line, to give that to patients, we need to be

:21:09.:21:17.

able to contact them. . One obstacle has been in getting that

:21:18.:21:21.

information. So maybe if we could work together. How many former

:21:22.:21:25.

residents have you been able to speak to and help? At the moment,

:21:26.:21:31.

I'm seeing about ten regularly either by telephone or a lot as

:21:32.:21:37.

well, the patients were in a deprived area of London, the tower

:21:38.:21:42.

resident were quite deprived and they have already a higher burden of

:21:43.:21:50.

psychological and physical problems and their access of help, there is

:21:51.:21:58.

more obstacles. On a good day they may not engage with the GP as much,

:21:59.:22:04.

now they have had a tragedy and they have been displaced, we are trying

:22:05.:22:10.

to b flexible and offer telephone consultations and a lot of GPs in

:22:11.:22:14.

the area, we are aware sometimes getting a GP appointment can be

:22:15.:22:18.

difficult, we have adviced is another tip is that most GPs in the

:22:19.:22:23.

area will offer a walk in service if you're a dispossessed patient. You

:22:24.:22:27.

need to make sure you mention that. If they say they're booked, mention

:22:28.:22:32.

I'm a patient that had to move home and you will almost certainly be

:22:33.:22:38.

seen on the same day. This must have tested you like nothing you have

:22:39.:22:41.

encountered? Yes it has been difficult. My training, I have been

:22:42.:22:49.

a doctor almost ten years, I have never been exposed to this kind of

:22:50.:22:54.

catastrophe, it doesn't come with a text book so, it about testing and

:22:55.:23:00.

the human element, everyone feels it, you feel such empathy for these

:23:01.:23:04.

people to have such a thing happen, one thing we learn as a doctor is

:23:05.:23:11.

how your professional empathy is different to how you may feel if

:23:12.:23:16.

somebody were your sibling. You can show come passion, but that still a

:23:17.:23:25.

allow yos tow function and -- allow yos s you to work and I have been

:23:26.:23:30.

able to offer people a service and help them in the situation. I know

:23:31.:23:35.

that, obviously, the work you do does take you down the difficult

:23:36.:23:40.

path and you have sort of, channel in a different drebs to try to --

:23:41.:23:46.

direction. I know the chat has been serious and I have come across as

:23:47.:23:51.

earnest. But I'm a comedian as well and I took to comedy, because I

:23:52.:23:56.

found my job was intense and stressful and I needed a outlet. My

:23:57.:24:02.

London debut is tonight. I didn't know whether it was appropriate, I

:24:03.:24:07.

discussed it with the practice and my family and we decided dark times

:24:08.:24:12.

need some happiness too. I will do the show tonight and I will give

:24:13.:24:20.

100% of the profits to the fund and also I have offered some free

:24:21.:24:24.

tickets to anyone who has had hardship or done well or volunteered

:24:25.:24:28.

and I contacted the ambulance and fire service. If anybody knows

:24:29.:24:36.

somebody who will benefit, contact me through social media and I will

:24:37.:24:44.

extend a free ticket. Do you draw on your work for material? Yes. It is

:24:45.:24:51.

about... Dark humour? It is light-hearted about the funny side

:24:52.:24:55.

of bag doctor, but I don't breach any confidentiality and it is about

:24:56.:25:02.

common things people do. Like? Like you know, men over exposing them to

:25:03.:25:08.

show their doctor their bits. Little kids crying. Just fun things. Good

:25:09.:25:13.

luck with that. Thank you for coming? In.

:25:14.:25:16.

Still to come - President Trump gets his way, sort of -

:25:17.:25:19.

a modified ban on travellers from six mainly Muslim

:25:20.:25:21.

nations finally comes into forceand his

:25:22.:25:23.

The uptake for cervical screening in the UK is falling year on year.

:25:24.:25:41.

A study by Cancer Research UK suggests that more than a quarter

:25:42.:25:43.

of women who are overdue a smear test are unaware there

:25:44.:25:46.

About half of those due a test said they were putting it off.

:25:47.:25:51.

Yet those women most at risk of cervical cancer

:25:52.:25:55.

Now let's speak to Beckii Mallett who's 26 and ignored

:25:56.:26:02.

She's joining us from Boston in Lincolnshire.

:26:03.:26:05.

We can also speak to Lucy Maxwell whose mother died of cervical

:26:06.:26:08.

Thank you both very much. Lucy, your mother dying when you were just nine

:26:09.:26:24.

of cervical cancer will have made you aware of the importance of

:26:25.:26:33.

testing, what is your view of that? Well, I'm often asked did she miss

:26:34.:26:38.

her smears, the answer is he didn't live long enough for me to ask. I

:26:39.:26:45.

assume she did, by the time her cancer was found it was very

:26:46.:26:50.

advanced. Your smear is not to find cancer, but to look for early signs,

:26:51.:26:57.

the precancer cells that can be treated effectively and we can stop

:26:58.:27:04.

the cancer in its tracks. My mother's death resulted in my father

:27:05.:27:10.

setting up a cancer trust, which I'm on the board and so I'm a trustee

:27:11.:27:17.

and we do work trying to keep people informed as to why it is important

:27:18.:27:21.

to show up when you're invited, what the experience will be like, try and

:27:22.:27:27.

put people at ease. If everybody took up testing, are you saying

:27:28.:27:35.

nobody need die of kerveical cancer -- cervical cancer. We we can't

:27:36.:27:41.

that, but we know we can prevent the cancer. It is preventing the cancer

:27:42.:27:46.

before it reaches that stage. But we know that screening prevents

:27:47.:27:50.

thousands of deaths a year. There is research to show that. Becky, you're

:27:51.:27:57.

26 and you're joining us from a hospital car park, because you're

:27:58.:28:03.

there for a test, having discovered that I you did have about normal

:28:04.:28:07.

cells. You found that out having not gone for screening for some time.

:28:08.:28:10.

Tell us what your situation has been. Yes, so a few years ago I did

:28:11.:28:19.

suffer from a lot of pelvic pains, which I did go for a cervical

:28:20.:28:26.

screening, which the test came back clear. That was procedure for me was

:28:27.:28:33.

quite uncomfortable, quite painful. So I sort of... Tried to put off the

:28:34.:28:40.

other cervical screening, when I got a letter, I ignored the letters. I

:28:41.:28:47.

must have ignored about 15 to 20 letters. For me, because I found the

:28:48.:28:54.

last procedure quite uncomfortable for me. But I just decided to go

:28:55.:29:06.

and, yes, they found low grade about normal cells and the HPV infection.

:29:07.:29:11.

I have come to go for another cervical screening to make sure how

:29:12.:29:19.

serious it is. You say obviously that you ignored the letters, having

:29:20.:29:25.

done that, and then gone and then discovered you have the about normal

:29:26.:29:31.

cells, how tufl about the -- do you feel about the fact you waited so

:29:32.:29:35.

long? When I got the letter to say that they had found about normal

:29:36.:29:39.

cells, to be fair I did break down in tears. I think I was just, quite

:29:40.:29:44.

quite mad at myself for leaving it too long. But I was also grateful

:29:45.:29:50.

that I had been, because I would have shuddered to think what

:29:51.:29:54.

situation I would have put myself in if I ignored it for another two

:29:55.:30:02.

years or so. So I'm pleased. Is it sort of the early stage of abnormal

:30:03.:30:07.

cells, we were hearing Lucy saying it is treatable if xaugt early on.

:30:08.:30:14.

-- caught early on. Yes the letter explained it was low grade about

:30:15.:30:20.

normal cells, and when they find the low grade abnormal cells that is

:30:21.:30:24.

whoo enthink test for the PPV infection. They find you have the

:30:25.:30:34.

HPV they transfer you to the gynaecologist at the hospital and

:30:35.:30:40.

here where I'm just about to go now, they will have just another look to

:30:41.:30:48.

see how serious it is and then if they find that I have abnormal

:30:49.:30:56.

cells, they will then... Do a little laider treatment to get -- laser

:30:57.:31:00.

treatment and they should be able to treat it today if they find it is

:31:01.:31:03.

serious though. Let's hope it all goes well for you.

:31:04.:31:16.

Is that a typical story, people don't concern about concerns about

:31:17.:31:23.

how uncomfortable it might be, how painful the processes? Absolutely,

:31:24.:31:26.

we put it off all the time, I put it off because I was embarrassed, I

:31:27.:31:30.

thought it would be painful. We always try and say, you know,

:31:31.:31:34.

absolutely it is not the most pleasant thing in the world but it

:31:35.:31:37.

takes five minutes and it could honestly save your life. We see

:31:38.:31:42.

women come through the charity, brilliant women who have survived

:31:43.:31:45.

cervical cancer who say there is no question they would be dead if they

:31:46.:31:48.

had not shown up for that smear test at that time. Timing is crucial. So

:31:49.:31:53.

please go if you are invited. It is so important as we have just heard,

:31:54.:31:59.

particularly because it can be caught at the critical, early-stage

:32:00.:32:03.

and dealt with very effectively. Thank you for joining us. We wish

:32:04.:32:07.

you the best with what happens at the hospital today, thank you.

:32:08.:32:09.

The latest attempts to restore the power sharing executive

:32:10.:32:12.

We look at what obstacles are in the path preventing

:32:13.:32:17.

Sexism in the dance music industry. The ten richest DJs are named and

:32:18.:32:29.

none of them are women so why are there so few females at the top? We

:32:30.:32:32.

speak to two women working in the business.

:32:33.:32:36.

Annita is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:32:37.:32:38.

Cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower during its refurbishment was changed

:32:39.:32:46.

to a version which cost nearly ?300,000 less, documents seen

:32:47.:32:49.

At least 80 people were killed when the tower

:32:50.:32:54.

block in west London was destroyed by fire two weeks ago.

:32:55.:32:56.

The documents show officials originally chose a

:32:57.:33:01.

zinc cladding but then decided upon a less fire

:33:02.:33:03.

Kensington and Chelsea Council says safety would not have

:33:04.:33:06.

A council meeting to discuss the tragedy was called off last

:33:07.:33:14.

night within minutes of starting after a row broke out over

:33:15.:33:16.

the attendance of members of the public and the press.

:33:17.:33:20.

The council halted the meeting, claiming it would prejudice

:33:21.:33:22.

the forthcoming public inquiry but London mayor Sadiq Khan

:33:23.:33:24.

said the council's decision beggars belief.

:33:25.:33:32.

The parents of ten-month-old Charlie Gard, who fought an unsuccessful

:33:33.:33:35.

legal battle to take him to America for experimental treatment, say he

:33:36.:33:39.

will stop receiving life support today.

:33:40.:33:41.

Charlie has a rare genetic condition and brain damage.

:33:42.:33:43.

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital said

:33:44.:33:53.

Chris Gard and Connie Yates say they've now been told they will not

:33:54.:33:57.

be able to take their son home to die.

:33:58.:33:59.

An investigation by chemical weapons inspectors has concluded

:34:00.:34:01.

that the banned nerve agent sarin was used in an attack

:34:02.:34:04.

on a rebel-held town in northern Syria in April.

:34:05.:34:06.

More than 80 people were killed.

:34:07.:34:08.

The attack prompted the United States to launch a cruise

:34:09.:34:10.

missile strike on a Syrian government air base.

:34:11.:34:12.

The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said he had no doubt

:34:13.:34:14.

Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad's forces were involved

:34:15.:34:16.

The German parliament has voted to legalise same-sex marriage.

:34:17.:34:23.

The bill will grant gay and lesbian couples

:34:24.:34:27.

full marital rights, including child adoption.

:34:28.:34:28.

It had been backed by most of Germany's political parties

:34:29.:34:31.

although it was opposed by conservative allies of Chancellor

:34:32.:34:34.

She changed her mind to allow a free vote.

:34:35.:34:42.

Time for a sports update. Breaking news and good news for

:34:43.:35:00.

cricket fans, the BBC has secured free to air digital and radio rights

:35:01.:35:04.

packages from the ECB which means live cricket will return to the BBC

:35:05.:35:08.

for the first time in 21 years. We will show highlights of all England

:35:09.:35:13.

matches as well as two T20 games in full. We will have ten live matches

:35:14.:35:16.

from the new T20 club competition as well. And there will be up to nine

:35:17.:35:21.

live women's fixtures but England Test match cricket will stay on paid

:35:22.:35:26.

subscription services in the 2020-2024 period. Number one seed

:35:27.:35:30.

Andy Murray will face a qualifier Lucky loser in the first round of

:35:31.:35:34.

Wimbledon. He has been drawn in the same half as French Open champion

:35:35.:35:37.

Rafa Nadal which means they could meet in the semifinals this year.

:35:38.:35:42.

Johanna Konta beat the world number one Angelique Kerber yesterday

:35:43.:35:44.

despite taking a heavy fall during the match. She will play Karolina

:35:45.:35:48.

Pliskova in the semifinal at Eastbourne later and fellow Briton

:35:49.:35:52.

Heather Watson is also through to the last four and will face Caroline

:35:53.:35:57.

Wozniacki at 11am. The British and Irish Lions coach Andy Farrell says

:35:58.:36:00.

it is do or die ahead of the second Test against New Zealand tomorrow

:36:01.:36:03.

morning. Defeat in Wellington would mean the All Blacks will take this

:36:04.:36:09.

varies. More in user life after 11 o'clock. -- take the series.

:36:10.:36:12.

Parts of President Trump's ban on travellers from six mainly Muslim

:36:13.:36:15.

The restriction, which began at 1am this morning,

:36:16.:36:21.

means that refugees and people from six named countries

:36:22.:36:23.

without close family or business relationships in the US

:36:24.:36:25.

could be denied visas and barred entry.

:36:26.:36:27.

Grandparents, aunts, uncles, nephews and nieces

:36:28.:36:29.

are not considered to be "bona fide" relations.

:36:30.:36:33.

The rules apply to people in Iran, Libya, Syria,

:36:34.:36:35.

I spoke to a political commentator and a broadcaster and Republican

:36:36.:36:46.

activist earlier. It's already being

:36:47.:36:47.

challenged by Hawaii. What are your thoughts

:36:48.:36:50.

on this ban now? Well, the Supreme Court has

:36:51.:36:53.

actually ruled a partial... That Donald Trump can actually

:36:54.:36:59.

implement part of the ban, and so they are actually moving

:37:00.:37:01.

full steam ahead. And this is pretty amazing

:37:02.:37:05.

because when you think about it, there have been a number of courts

:37:06.:37:08.

that have already shot this down. So I'm sure the thinking

:37:09.:37:11.

was that the Supreme Court, if they actually decided to take

:37:12.:37:14.

this up, would actually No one actually thought

:37:15.:37:17.

that they would actually allow Donald Trump to actually implement

:37:18.:37:21.

parts of the ban until they decide to take it up, and they won't take

:37:22.:37:25.

it up until the next session of the Supreme Court,

:37:26.:37:29.

which is in the fall, So the president is actually moving

:37:30.:37:31.

full steam ahead with this, and I think it's only going to be

:37:32.:37:36.

that much more troubling because it could take us back to a place

:37:37.:37:40.

where you see the United States' standing in the world diminish,

:37:41.:37:43.

much like what took place during the Iraq war,

:37:44.:37:48.

where much of the world had a very diminished

:37:49.:37:51.

view of the United States because, for many, the United States has

:37:52.:37:54.

always been that beacon, a place where the voiceless,

:37:55.:37:56.

the helpless can come. And now it looks as though

:37:57.:38:00.

we are turning people away for no And I think that's something

:38:01.:38:03.

that's deeply troubling, Charlie Wolf, the president says

:38:04.:38:13.

that the reason for this ban I think he has the right

:38:14.:38:16.

as commander-in-chief to make that decision,

:38:17.:38:26.

and that's what I'm I think there's a couple

:38:27.:38:28.

of things here. First off, I think the lower courts

:38:29.:38:31.

were wrong and they were judging him on personality and, for instance,

:38:32.:38:34.

one of the judges based it on comments he made

:38:35.:38:36.

on the campaign trail. And the other thing that's

:38:37.:38:39.

important, more so than our standing in the world, which I think

:38:40.:38:43.

is still safe, is there's always been sort of an elasticity between

:38:44.:38:46.

the three branches of government. And it's important not just

:38:47.:38:49.

for Mr Trump but for future presidents that he has that power,

:38:50.:38:53.

that it's not taken away, when it He is the commander-in-chief,

:38:54.:38:56.

and when we have judges diminishing that power,

:38:57.:39:04.

that sets a very This is a bar on people

:39:05.:39:05.

entering the US on the basis of where they are from

:39:06.:39:16.

and what their religion is. I don't think it's based

:39:17.:39:18.

on their religion. When he said, for instance,

:39:19.:39:20.

after San Bernardino, when he said, I think it was,

:39:21.:39:22.

Muslim countries, if I had been advising him on communications

:39:23.:39:25.

I would have said from specific And also, let's not forget,

:39:26.:39:28.

these are not countries These were classified by the Obama

:39:29.:39:33.

administration and the simple fact Eric Ham, what about the point

:39:34.:39:43.

that these are countries that are being targeted under this ban

:39:44.:39:46.

that were identified We do know that President Obama

:39:47.:39:48.

did have a temporary ban in place for Iraq,

:39:49.:39:52.

and it did not expand to the countries that Donald Trump

:39:53.:39:55.

has actually laid out These are countries that

:39:56.:39:57.

are actually decided upon by the Trump administration,

:39:58.:40:05.

that he implemented. And what was so striking

:40:06.:40:07.

about the ban is there were some countries,

:40:08.:40:11.

particularly Saudi Arabia, Because when you look at where

:40:12.:40:13.

the 9/11 attackers came from, We know that Saudi Arabia

:40:14.:40:22.

is the biggest exporter of Wahhabiism, which is seen

:40:23.:40:26.

as an extreme version of Islam. That's a country that has

:40:27.:40:31.

not added to the ban, and I think many people look at this

:40:32.:40:35.

ban in particular and say these are countries where

:40:36.:40:38.

the president does not have I just want to move

:40:39.:40:41.

on to something else that emerged from Donald Trump,

:40:42.:40:51.

and it's a personal attack And it's not the first time he's

:40:52.:40:53.

made personal comments It's a host called Mika Brzezinski,

:40:54.:40:58.

on Twitter he described her What do you each think about these

:40:59.:41:01.

comments by Donald Trump, the way that he does take people

:41:02.:41:09.

on in very personal terms? I can't comment so much

:41:10.:41:12.

on this particular incident because I haven't really seen much

:41:13.:41:16.

of it here in London yet. When we elected the man, everybody

:41:17.:41:20.

knew, it was totally clear, that he is a man who's not been

:41:21.:41:26.

a president or not been in politics, He himself said, if you attack me,

:41:27.:41:30.

I come back ten times harder. If people are surprised,

:41:31.:41:37.

you know, I'm surprised Is it edifying, though,

:41:38.:41:40.

for a president to be doing it? I'll leave that to the individual

:41:41.:41:48.

to decide for themselves. The press have been treating him

:41:49.:41:50.

in the same respect, you know? So I think if you want to play

:41:51.:41:57.

the game, you know, if you give If I could just push

:41:58.:42:10.

back, no, Mr Wolf, this This is the presidency

:42:11.:42:15.

of the United States. And many people look

:42:16.:42:18.

at the presidency as the most And so, as a result of that,

:42:19.:42:21.

I think many have high expectations of the person who holds the office

:42:22.:42:26.

because you're encapsulating And what the president did

:42:27.:42:31.

was he attacked a reporter and he attacked her in very

:42:32.:42:38.

personal, very strident And we've seen him do

:42:39.:42:40.

this as a candidate, but this is the first time that

:42:41.:42:45.

we've actually seen him And I think his own party has come

:42:46.:42:47.

after him in very aggressive terms, because it's clearly un-beholding

:42:48.:42:55.

of what we expect of our president I agree with you, but I think

:42:56.:42:58.

we knew going in that this was not You know, this is Donald Trump,

:42:59.:43:04.

and I think the people that elected him this time around weren't

:43:05.:43:11.

so interested necessarily in... That's not necessarily

:43:12.:43:14.

a constitutional They wanted somebody

:43:15.:43:16.

who can fix the economy, that's what they're

:43:17.:43:21.

expecting, not to... -- not to play nice nice with the

:43:22.:43:27.

press. Politics in Northern

:43:28.:43:31.

Ireland is never simple. But in recent weeks, it seems

:43:32.:43:34.

to have become unusually complex. Yesterday, talks between Sinn Fein -

:43:35.:43:37.

who want Northern Ireland to be part of the Irish Republic,

:43:38.:43:40.

and the DUP who want it to remain a part of the UK -

:43:41.:43:42.

failed to restore the so-called power sharing executive, under

:43:43.:43:46.

which the two communities share key Meanwhile, the DUP have just agreed

:43:47.:43:48.

to support Theresa May and the Conservative government

:43:49.:43:52.

at Westminster in exchange for a ?1 billion package of spending

:43:53.:43:55.

in Northern Ireland. And this is all against

:43:56.:43:58.

the backdrop of Brexit - which threatens to see a hard border

:43:59.:44:01.

between the north and To help unpick all of this,

:44:02.:44:04.

we have in the studio She's an Irish historian

:44:05.:44:12.

and author. And from the BBC studio in Belfast -

:44:13.:44:18.

Eamonn Mallie - an author reporting on Northern Ireland

:44:19.:44:21.

and its politics for decades. Thank you for joining us. The

:44:22.:44:28.

deadline for agreement has been extended until Monday. Do you think

:44:29.:44:33.

that is going to be enough time to unlock this? Welcome to everybody in

:44:34.:44:41.

London and throughout the UK. I doubt if we can have a resolution in

:44:42.:44:45.

the short term. There are mountains to be climbed. The gaps are so

:44:46.:44:50.

tremendous between the two sides. I would be suspicious whether there's

:44:51.:44:54.

any possibility of a resolution in the next 48 hours. It is highly

:44:55.:45:02.

unlikely. Given the DUP will not be negotiating Sunday, a custom and

:45:03.:45:05.

practice of the party. I think we are in a deadlock here. If there is

:45:06.:45:11.

not agreement, then what? Direct rule, probably, for a time, some

:45:12.:45:17.

measure of it. I agree with Eamon, I can't see how they will resolve it.

:45:18.:45:21.

From my perspective, I think the problem was Sinn Fein did not want

:45:22.:45:25.

the executive to come back and so made an enormous number of demands

:45:26.:45:28.

that they knew the DUP couldn't actually do. But then when the money

:45:29.:45:32.

happened, the ?1 billion, they want to have a part in influencing how it

:45:33.:45:38.

is spent, how do they actually back down and save face? It is not easy.

:45:39.:45:44.

But as you say, the ?1 billion if they want to decide how it is spent,

:45:45.:45:48.

they need to unlock this? Yes, but they don't want to disillusion their

:45:49.:45:54.

supporters. So how do those two issues get worked together, Eamon?

:45:55.:46:00.

I know this billion pound and the new love affair between the DUP and

:46:01.:46:08.

Theresa May, I know it is an irritant, but let's be realistic,

:46:09.:46:13.

the problems obtaining now would be here regardless. There is such a

:46:14.:46:18.

gulf over the questions, or the issue of Brexit, Sinn Fein and the

:46:19.:46:27.

nationalists want to stay in Europe. The DUP voted to leave. The majority

:46:28.:46:33.

voted to stay. But the issues dealing with the past and things

:46:34.:46:38.

like same sex marriage, we have an instrument in Government here, a

:46:39.:46:47.

veto, whereby the DUP has used this instrument this veto to block for

:46:48.:46:52.

example any discussion coming forth regarding same sex marriage. So the

:46:53.:46:57.

issues are there regardless of the relationship with the Tories. That

:46:58.:47:04.

is a mere add on. If case you thought there were not enough come

:47:05.:47:12.

plications, if there was an election the DUP are likely to do better. Why

:47:13.:47:19.

is that because of the deal? Yes and because they did badly in the last

:47:20.:47:24.

Assembly election, because there was a lot of bad blood. This time they

:47:25.:47:29.

would have done better and have the veto. Doesn't that put more pressure

:47:30.:47:34.

on Sinn Fein to try to get to ensure that those are two scenarios that

:47:35.:47:41.

don't happen? Yes it is hard to see how they can cross that gulf. It is

:47:42.:47:47.

so huge. There is no trust between them of any kind. And they have

:47:48.:47:51.

become the two big party and destroyed the middle ground. They

:47:52.:47:57.

have done it before obviously. Yes but the gulf is wider. Why do you

:47:58.:48:04.

think it is wider now? Just huge mistrust and a lot of issues that

:48:05.:48:11.

are unresolvable. The issue around the Irish language. Sinn Fein want

:48:12.:48:17.

ant Irish language act and from the point of view of unionism and others

:48:18.:48:23.

would involve enormous wasteful expense. 0.02% of people speak Irish

:48:24.:48:34.

at home. But this would involve interpreters in the courts, 10% of

:48:35.:48:40.

recruits in public service being Irish-speaking and so on. Massively.

:48:41.:48:44.

But it is very hard for them to row back on it. Because they have made

:48:45.:48:50.

it an issue of cultural respect. I don't know how you get out of it. We

:48:51.:48:57.

will have to wait and see, thank you both very much.

:48:58.:49:00.

The dance music industry is worth $7.4 billion dollars.

:49:01.:49:02.

Last year, Forbes magazine's top 10 richest Djs were all men -

:49:03.:49:05.

with Calvin Harris topping the list for the fourth year in a row.

:49:06.:49:10.

Which begs the question, why are there so few females at the top?

:49:11.:49:13.

Gender discrimination took centre stage at this year's

:49:14.:49:18.

Ibiza's International Music Summit, where co-founder Pete Tong and many

:49:19.:49:21.

other leading figures gathered to debate how to change that tune.

:49:22.:49:24.

Quick warning - there are some flashing images in this piece.

:49:25.:49:26.

I was sexually assaulted by a promoter.

:49:27.:49:30.

I had a co-worker who called me his secretary, even though

:49:31.:49:32.

I never made more than $100 as a DJ until I think I was 33 years old.

:49:33.:49:49.

I don't know a single woman in dance music who has not experienced some

:49:50.:49:54.

version of this, from unwanted attention from fans, touching, that

:49:55.:49:58.

If there is one of me, there have to be thousands of

:49:59.:50:04.

I don't think women want to be in positions of influence through

:50:05.:50:16.

You know, they want to be in positions of influence by being

:50:17.:50:23.

At 17, I came over with ?100 in my pocket and two flight

:50:24.:50:28.

I was the first female resident DJ in Ibiza.

:50:29.:50:32.

25 years later, there's a lot more women that have come on the scene.

:50:33.:50:37.

It's still a still much lower amount of females that are around, or

:50:38.:50:40.

If you look at the top DJ 100, I think there was two,

:50:41.:50:47.

There aren't many women represented in dance

:50:48.:50:50.

music publishing, definitely not as many women as men bust up but I

:50:51.:50:55.

believe that I got my job because I was the best for it -

:50:56.:50:59.

not because I was a woman, but because I was the

:51:00.:51:01.

I had a meeting and this guy didn't even look at me or

:51:02.:51:19.

acknowledge me, and yeah, it's difficult, it's definitely

:51:20.:51:21.

But it's something I feel very passionate about that needs to

:51:22.:51:27.

It's time to move into the action phase.

:51:28.:51:31.

But we also need to see men get active in this.

:51:32.:51:34.

There are some very talented women out

:51:35.:51:36.

there, but being someone who is quite up in electronic music, I

:51:37.:51:39.

It's definitely a lot better when it's a mixture of people,

:51:40.:51:44.

you know, whether it's ethnicity or gender,

:51:45.:51:47.

you know, race and gender, it's better for everyone to be mixed.

:51:48.:51:59.

We created this system of support that women

:52:00.:52:01.

Menus to have their gents clubs or their golf clubs or their whisky

:52:02.:52:08.

bars, women don't really have these physical

:52:09.:52:10.

spaces, and so I decided to

:52:11.:52:11.

We're talking about mental health issues and male

:52:12.:52:19.

The whole thing around diversity's probably been a more intense debate

:52:20.:52:26.

I think it's important to talk about it and be

:52:27.:52:30.

transparent about it, because unless we do, then it's

:52:31.:52:35.

going to continue to be the cost of doing business, and it should

:52:36.:52:38.

We're joined by Sybil Bell, who is the founder of

:52:39.:52:44.

Independent Venue Week - championing small music

:52:45.:52:46.

But she also set up and ran an event called Yes She can -

:52:47.:52:52.

aimed at young women who want to learn about

:52:53.:52:54.

And also Mandy Parnell who is a music producer and also

:52:55.:52:57.

Thank you for coming in. It is weird isn't it? It is not like it is an

:52:58.:53:10.

old fashioned or a traditional area, it's modern, out there, why is it

:53:11.:53:15.

that women don't seem to be punching through? I don't know, it is a

:53:16.:53:22.

tricky one, it almost seems ironic that we need to have this discussion

:53:23.:53:26.

and there are groups championing women and the event we put on to

:53:27.:53:31.

encourage young women to learn about the music industry, it almost feels

:53:32.:53:40.

like we should haven't those discussions. Why do you think there

:53:41.:53:47.

is not parity. I think we need to aim younger. I was at the music week

:53:48.:53:56.

and met some women from Finland that have an initiative aiming at

:53:57.:54:01.

children in primary school, teaching them about music and production and

:54:02.:54:06.

recording music. So I think a lot of our initiatives are aimed at

:54:07.:54:10.

teenagers, when they're doing their options or later when they're coming

:54:11.:54:15.

into college, which the foundations probably's been set by the choices.

:54:16.:54:20.

Do you think it is that young girls are choosing, are not choosing it

:54:21.:54:26.

rather than once people have chosen it being discriminated against? I

:54:27.:54:30.

think so yes, they don't realise it is a choice early enough. Maybe from

:54:31.:54:36.

conditioning, through systems, through being at home. Yeah, I think

:54:37.:54:41.

it's more you know we need to aim younger so they realise it is a

:54:42.:54:46.

choice. In all sciences. Do you think there is discrimination within

:54:47.:54:49.

the industry as well or is it not that? I think there is just from the

:54:50.:54:55.

film you showed, there are examples where women are discriminated

:54:56.:54:58.

against. It is a tough one, my personal experience has been very

:54:59.:55:02.

little of that and in fact there have been a number of men who have

:55:03.:55:06.

been strong champions of women in the business. So it is a difficult

:55:07.:55:11.

one and I guess it depends on which part of business you're in. But it

:55:12.:55:17.

does xus. -- xus. I think in -- exist. I think men feel entitlement

:55:18.:55:24.

and women are used to grafting and it is a shame we have to be overtly

:55:25.:55:28.

speaking up on behalf of women to get that level. I think manned Yip's

:55:29.:55:34.

right -- Mandy's right and the experience we have had is the

:55:35.:55:41.

younger you get, the earlier you can speak to girls, giving them options

:55:42.:55:45.

and understanding that is a choice is empowering. Our project was part

:55:46.:55:51.

of a campaign and we had girls from Sunderland and Hull and London and

:55:52.:55:56.

we were talking about production, live production and studio

:55:57.:56:00.

production and we probably went too deep into that, some didn't know a

:56:01.:56:05.

number of careers even existed, even they were technical roles. And I

:56:06.:56:11.

think the more we can do to educate young girls, music's coming out of a

:56:12.:56:15.

lot of curriculum in schools that is a dayser the. It should be -- that

:56:16.:56:22.

is a disaster. There are so many women in music, female artists, why

:56:23.:56:28.

is this area not, that girls are not thinking about it as a natural area.

:56:29.:56:37.

We have a PRS and they have got an initiative called women make music

:56:38.:56:41.

to raise women song writers, because they don't have that many, but we

:56:42.:56:45.

have lots of women in the public eye, but behind the scenes, say in

:56:46.:56:50.

engineering we have managed to raise it and the MPG are raising their

:56:51.:56:55.

membership, but were talking to six to, to what? With one group 28%. 28%

:56:56.:57:05.

for independent venue week, we work with venues around the country and

:57:06.:57:09.

28% of the people who own or manage the venues are women. That is the

:57:10.:57:14.

strongest statistic we have of women in a sense in these roles in these

:57:15.:57:21.

technical roles. Have you come across women being held back,

:57:22.:57:26.

discrimination? I don't know whether I have heard much around it. The

:57:27.:57:32.

women, I mentor a lot of women and they have made a choice to do this.

:57:33.:57:39.

So it is more about empowering them not to be intimidated, in any way,

:57:40.:57:45.

to, yes yeah, to be strong in what they're doing and not play the

:57:46.:57:49.

victim if that makes the sense. It is easy to fly the flag and say,

:57:50.:57:56.

it's because I'm a woman when you come across ignorant women,. I don't

:57:57.:58:04.

think a lot of us have had victimisation because we're women, I

:58:05.:58:07.

wouldn't say I have, but I have been in the industry 33 years. Thank you

:58:08.:58:09.

both very much. Have a good weekend. We're not going to get out of this

:58:10.:58:35.

one, are we?

:58:36.:58:38.

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