12/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


12/07/2017

Four weeks after the Grenfell Tower fire, Victoria looks into what councils have been doing about cladding on tower blocks.


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It's four weeks now since the devastating fire which destroyed

:00:12.:00:14.

Grenfell Tower block in Kensington and this programme has discovered

:00:15.:00:22.

that fewer than half the local authority areas with tower blocks

:00:23.:00:25.

wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests have started

:00:26.:00:28.

Residents have also told us they're asking for new fire exits

:00:29.:00:31.

But where is the money for that going to come from?

:00:32.:00:35.

After Grenfell Tower did not feel safe. I had lots of questions and

:00:36.:00:42.

mine head. I still do not. There is no clarity as to how safe we are.

:00:43.:00:48.

More on that story to come, and in the next few

:00:49.:00:51.

minutes we'll get reaction from residents and politicians.

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I want to thank you for coming together and being so strong and

:00:53.:01:00.

loving and unified. Councillors in Manchester

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are meeting today to discuss giving Arianne Grande

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honorary citizenship after she organised that concert

:01:08.:01:08.

to raise funds for victims We'll hear from two

:01:09.:01:11.

survivors of the attack Plus: Bands are song

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writers are being told not to reveal which musicians

:01:15.:01:22.

inspired their latest tracks for fear they'll be done

:01:23.:01:24.

for copyright infringement. MUSIC: "Blurred Lines"

:01:25.:01:26.

by Robin Thicke ..was found to have

:01:27.:01:28.

copied this one... MUSIC: "Got To Give It

:01:29.:01:30.

Up" by Marvin Gaye. Our full exclusive

:01:31.:01:37.

story before 10am. Throughout the morning,

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the latest breaking news And, as always, really

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keen to hear from you. A little later in the programme

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we'll hear from a former prostitute who's part of a campaign to ban

:02:00.:02:02.

all prostitution related offences Campaigners say at the moment it's

:02:03.:02:05.

too hard for sex workers to move on and find jobs if their records

:02:06.:02:14.

show they've been Use #VictoriaLIVE, and if you text

:02:15.:02:17.

you will be charged President Trump's eldest son has

:02:18.:02:23.

said he didn't tell his father about a meeting last year

:02:24.:02:31.

with a Russian lawyer who was apparently offering to help

:02:32.:02:33.

the Trump election campaign. Yesterday Donald Trump Junior

:02:34.:02:35.

released e-mails which showed he was keen to see what incriminating

:02:36.:02:38.

material the lawyer was prepared to offer on Mr Trump's election

:02:39.:02:41.

rival, Hillary Clinton. The e-mails feature an exchange

:02:42.:02:43.

between Donald Trump Jr and the British publicist Rob

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Goldstone. Early in the thread,

:02:49.:02:50.

Goldstone says that he can broker a meeting with a Russian journalist,

:02:51.:02:53.

who says he has damaging information about Hillary Clinton,

:02:54.:02:59.

information which would be "useful In retrospect,

:03:00.:03:01.

I probably would have For me this was opposition research,

:03:02.:03:21.

so I wanted to hear it out. Nowhere was it apparent that this

:03:22.:03:30.

is what the meeting was about. President Trump has been largely

:03:31.:03:35.

silent on the issue, saying only that his son

:03:36.:03:37.

was a high-quality person and that Did you tell your father

:03:38.:03:39.

anything about this? I mean, I wouldn't have even

:03:40.:03:42.

remembered it until you start It was literally a wasted 20

:03:43.:03:50.

minutes, which was a shame. President Trump travels to France

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today, anxious no doubt to escape the impression

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that his is an administration Joanna Gosling is in the BBC

:04:09.:04:10.

Newsroom with a summary Police investigating

:04:11.:04:13.

the Grenfell Tower fire say the task of identifying all the people

:04:14.:04:17.

who died in the tragedy could take many months but they are determined

:04:18.:04:20.

to "return those who died The head of the recovery team says

:04:21.:04:23.

it's the worst incident Today marks four weeks

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since the devastating fire, and tonight the community will come

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together for a vigil to honour those who lost their lives,

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as Sarah Smith reports. Four weeks of grief and shock,

:04:34.:04:36.

of searching for loved ones Police estimate at least 80

:04:37.:04:39.

people lost their lives. It is the job of the disaster victim

:04:40.:04:45.

identification teams The man leading the job says that

:04:46.:04:48.

it's the worst incident he has We are looking at a fingertip

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search of all the flats, That would involve officers

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on their hands and knees. I feel passionate about

:05:06.:05:08.

getting those people back I understand how frustrating

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it is for people outside of this environment to sit there

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and wait and say, why can't Tonight, in the shadow

:05:15.:05:16.

of Grenfell's blackened shell, a vigil will be held

:05:17.:05:21.

to remember those who died. One of those who escaped the burning

:05:22.:05:25.

tower is Antonio Roncolato, woken by his son who saw the flames

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as he returned home. The smoke was very thick,

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very horrible smell, obviously. I said there was no way

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I could get out there. He would be led to

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safety by firefighters. The questions over what happened

:05:43.:05:47.

here started before the flames Similar cladding on more

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than 200 other buildings has Labour has called for the process

:05:50.:05:54.

to be speeded up, saying the government has been too

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slow both in helping Grenfell residents and making sure

:06:01.:06:03.

other blocks are safe. Later today there will be a debate

:06:04.:06:07.

in Parliament over the enquiry to be Four weeks on and the real business

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of finding answers feels as though And the Victoria Derbyshire

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programme has found that fewer than half the local authorities

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with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests

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have started to remove the material. Following the Grenfell fire

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the government said it planned to carry out fire safety tests

:06:36.:06:40.

on 600 buildings across England. But despite every test on material

:06:41.:06:42.

taken from those buildings failing, so far only one in three housing

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associations and councils have Political parties must do more

:06:47.:06:49.

to prepare candidates for the ruthless nature

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of campaigning, according A parliamentary cross-party group

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made the recommendation in a report documenting the scale of abuse

:06:59.:07:02.

and intimidation of parliamentary candidates

:07:03.:07:04.

during the general election. One MP suffered an anti-Semitic

:07:05.:07:07.

attack and another was targeted by racist graffiti

:07:08.:07:10.

and repeated death threats. The report will be debated

:07:11.:07:13.

by MPs this afternoon. The National Audit Office has

:07:14.:07:17.

criticised the government's handling of a new electronic tagging system

:07:18.:07:21.

for offenders in England and Wales after the costly project

:07:22.:07:27.

fell behind schedule. So far, the Ministry of Justice has

:07:28.:07:30.

spent ?60 million on the system, which has fallen five years behind

:07:31.:07:33.

schedule. The ministry's ambition

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for a bespoke world-leading combined GPS and radio frequency

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tag proved unachievable. And the programme was also

:07:42.:07:44.

beset by problems in Lloyds Banking Group, which has more

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than 20 million customers, is scrapping all fees and charges

:07:48.:07:55.

for overdrafts that Last year, the consumer group

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Which called for a crackdown on unarranged overdraft charges

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after it found that they could be A charity says every household

:08:03.:08:05.

in the UK should get a one-off rebate of ?285 on its energy bills,

:08:06.:08:11.

because providers have been making excessive profits

:08:12.:08:14.

at the expense of its customers. Citizens Advice says

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the regulator Ofgem allowed companies to charge too much

:08:17.:08:19.

and overestimated their costs. But Ofgem and energy providers

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are disputing the claim, as our Personal Finance

:08:24.:08:25.

Correspondent reports. A quarter of our bills is made up

:08:26.:08:31.

of the cost of transporting electricity and gas,

:08:32.:08:35.

a job done by the National Grid and various local

:08:36.:08:38.

network companies who, because this is a monopoly,

:08:39.:08:40.

have their charges vetted Citizens Advice estimates that

:08:41.:08:44.

in the current eight years, which we are halfway through,

:08:45.:08:50.

the network companies stand to make ?7.5 billion of excess profits,

:08:51.:08:52.

hence the demand for a rebate of ?285 per household,

:08:53.:08:56.

the money to be returned Ofgem have overestimated

:08:57.:08:59.

the cost of investment For example, interest rates haven't

:09:00.:09:02.

been as high as they expected. They've also allowed the companies

:09:03.:09:09.

to earn money at the rate that a much riskier company would be

:09:10.:09:11.

able to do and they have not been tough enough with the companies

:09:12.:09:15.

on sharing the benefits of any Ofgem says the cost of getting our

:09:16.:09:18.

gas and electricity to us has been going down and it's

:09:19.:09:25.

already secured rebates. But it's launching a review today

:09:26.:09:27.

of how it sets prices in future. The network companies reject

:09:28.:09:31.

the calculations made by Citizens Advice and point to huge amounts

:09:32.:09:34.

of money they need to invest. This programme has learned that

:09:35.:09:37.

artists are being advised not to state publicly who they're

:09:38.:09:43.

inspired by because of fears it could lead to lawsuits

:09:44.:09:46.

for copyright infringement. It follows the high-profile case

:09:47.:09:50.

in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams

:09:51.:09:53.

had copied a Marvin Gaye song. This has led to fears that the music

:09:54.:09:55.

industry could become Anthony on Facebook says, 80s music

:09:56.:10:15.

is, was, the best overall. The proof of this is in the number of songs

:10:16.:10:21.

that include samples or are based on 80s songs. Most of not all of these

:10:22.:10:25.

will have obtained authorisation but there are many new sells that cause

:10:26.:10:32.

they be the cause of old songs and tunes and infringe copyright. Does

:10:33.:10:37.

this stay for new music? No. That is the cost of sampling. Due to the

:10:38.:10:41.

greed of the music industry rather than the musicians. Even says yes,

:10:42.:10:50.

copyright laws stifle creativity. We have a really interesting film about

:10:51.:10:51.

that just before 9:30am. Let's get the latest sports

:10:52.:10:56.

headlines with Leah, and it's all about Wimbledon today,

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isn't it, Leah? Yes. Konta is one match away from

:10:59.:11:13.

the final. She beat her Romanian opponent 2-1. It came with the

:11:14.:11:16.

controversial match point where a scream from someone in the crowd

:11:17.:11:22.

seemed to put them both of. Konta was watched by Virginia Wade who won

:11:23.:11:27.

the tournament in the year of the Queen's Silver Jubilee. Konta will

:11:28.:11:34.

take on Venus Williams on Thursday. Andy Murray will be looking to do

:11:35.:11:38.

the same later than his quarterfinal on Centre Court. He takes on his

:11:39.:11:44.

American opponent and he thinks that his opponent will be a challenging

:11:45.:11:51.

opponent. His brother Jamie and Martina Hingis are through to the

:11:52.:11:53.

last eight of the mixed doubles after winning in straight sets. The

:11:54.:11:58.

match was stopped twice because of rain but they won in an hour and 11

:11:59.:12:07.

minutes. These two are brilliant. They are brothers and wild cards in

:12:08.:12:11.

the men's doubles and becoming one of the unlikely success stories of

:12:12.:12:16.

the tournament. They are through to the quarterfinals but did not expect

:12:17.:12:20.

to last two weeks because they only got their hotel for a week. They are

:12:21.:12:25.

Liverpool fans and have sorted somewhere to stay, a hotel next to

:12:26.:12:32.

Stamford Bridge. We will have more at 9:30am live from Wimbledon.

:12:33.:12:34.

It was exactly four weeks ago that fire broke out at Grenfell Tower

:12:35.:12:38.

in North Kensington, and this programme has discovered

:12:39.:12:39.

that fewer than half the local authority areas with tower blocks

:12:40.:12:42.

wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests have started

:12:43.:12:45.

Today the Labour Party describes the fire safety

:12:46.:12:50.

Meanwhile, a consultation period on the terms of reference

:12:51.:12:54.

for the public inquiry into the fire has been extended by two weeks.

:12:55.:12:57.

Many of those affected by the fire have expressed concern

:12:58.:12:59.

that the scope of the inquiry, to be chaired by Sir

:13:00.:13:03.

Martin Moore-Bick, will not be broad enough.

:13:04.:13:04.

MPs will debate the inquiry in Parliament today.

:13:05.:13:06.

We'll get reaction from various guests

:13:07.:13:08.

in a moment but first here's how this programme has

:13:09.:13:10.

covered the story over the last four weeks.

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I've seen some things but today I can't even describe it.

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There's mothers that have come out and lost

:13:29.:13:30.

There are firefighters that have come out injured.

:13:31.:13:36.

There was smoke everywhere, literally everywhere.

:13:37.:13:38.

There was people downstairs, there was bits of

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the cladding falling off the block that was on fire.

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There's people who were jumping out the place.

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There's a man who threw two of his children.

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Honestly, it's all right, you don't have to say any more.

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I looked behind me and I didn't see my brother.

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I said, "My brother, my brother, where is he?"

:14:23.:14:28.

Then I went outside, I called him, and I said, "Where are you?"

:14:29.:14:31.

He said, "No one brought me outside."

:14:32.:14:40.

Lives didn't need to be lost and they're lost and people

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are looking for their children and it's so unfair.

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Today we're back here in North Kensington

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to catch up with some of those we first met on that first

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Wednesday to bring you more remarkable stories of those who

:16:27.:16:28.

escaped and to find out how people are doing.

:16:29.:16:53.

Check it and forget your label of MP, human.

:16:54.:16:56.

Then you will gain the respect and understanding of these

:16:57.:17:02.

The housing minister, I'm told,

:17:03.:17:07.

And his name is Alok Sharma and he has agreed to be with us

:17:08.:17:12.

today after after pressure from residents.

:17:13.:17:16.

So I know you have questions for him.

:17:17.:17:17.

Why is it OK that there are thousands of empty homes

:17:18.:17:30.

right in this area and these people are homeless?

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Listen, don't give me any rubbish and think I'm going to

:17:33.:17:39.

accept it because I'm not going to accept it.

:17:40.:17:41.

Olu does not want temporary accommodation.

:17:42.:17:43.

He wants good permanent accommodation.

:17:44.:17:45.

Victoria, so, what we have said is that...

:17:46.:17:52.

Can you please be specific as to what package you are offering

:17:53.:17:58.

in terms of housing or rehousing the residents

:17:59.:18:00.

And be specific about it, please, without the flowery words.

:18:01.:18:05.

And can we just get him to speak, otherwise

:18:06.:18:07.

Let the Minister speak so we hear what he's

:18:08.:18:13.

Please let us know what your commitments are.

:18:14.:18:17.

So, what we have committed to is anyone

:18:18.:18:20.

whose home has been destroyed will be housed by next

:18:21.:18:23.

Wednesday in good accommodation and then we will work with -

:18:24.:18:26.

and in housing that is acceptable to them - so what we're not

:18:27.:18:29.

offered a home, you don't like it, and you are still asked to go in.

:18:30.:18:34.

Would you like to meet with the minister again

:18:35.:18:38.

We will be meeting the Minister again.

:18:39.:18:41.

I'll say the same thing I said when I met

:18:42.:18:45.

These are our needs, this is how you can accommodate for us.

:18:46.:18:49.

We do not need you to throw us in temporary accommodation.

:18:50.:18:52.

We do not need you to put me and my family in

:18:53.:18:55.

Meet our needs or just tell us the truth

:18:56.:19:00.

If you can't meet the requirements, it's simple.

:19:01.:19:06.

If you can't do it, tell us the truth.

:19:07.:19:42.

Just this morning police Everest footage of officers from the victim

:19:43.:19:49.

identification group entering Grenfell Tower.

:19:50.:20:10.

Commander Stuart Cundy, the officer leading the investigation has said

:20:11.:20:16.

police are determined to do all we can to return those who died to

:20:17.:20:21.

their families as soon as we can. This is a statement released four

:20:22.:20:27.

weeks on from the terrible tragedy. Met police Sergeant Alastair

:20:28.:20:30.

Hutchinson is the officer leading on identifying victims.

:20:31.:20:33.

We believe in dignity in death, repatriating family members as soon

:20:34.:20:45.

as we can and adhering to an identification process that will

:20:46.:20:47.

ensure that the right person gets brought back to their loved ones.

:20:48.:20:58.

We can speak now to Moyra Samuels from the Justice for Grenfell group,

:20:59.:21:01.

Pilgrim Tucker, a community organiser, who supported

:21:02.:21:02.

Grenfell Tower residents' campaign, the Grenfell Action Group,

:21:03.:21:04.

Melanie Onn, Labour's spokesperson on housing, and Lucy Masoud,

:21:05.:21:06.

a Chelsea firefighter and union official.

:21:07.:21:11.

Moira, let me ask you, your assessment, if you like, of where

:21:12.:21:17.

the survivors and residents are four weeks on? I think, as people have

:21:18.:21:23.

indicated, there are still a lot of disorganisation. We have only had 18

:21:24.:21:31.

families that have been rehoused. You know, a survivor I spoke to said

:21:32.:21:35.

they had been made an offer that was withdrawn. I think people still feel

:21:36.:21:43.

the system is still a little bit disjointed, and their needs are not

:21:44.:21:49.

really being met. Is that fair, Pilgrim? You were nodding in

:21:50.:21:53.

agreement. I would echo that completely but I would say not a

:21:54.:21:56.

little bit, I would say there are still a total failure continuing.

:21:57.:22:02.

Have there been no improvements? Very minor improvements, but these

:22:03.:22:05.

residents and survivors are daily being faced with an onslaught of

:22:06.:22:09.

queues, as Joe mentioned earlier in the film, terrible decisions they

:22:10.:22:13.

have to make, chopping and changing with a public enquiry. And very,

:22:14.:22:20.

very difficult problems with their housing, and still actually

:22:21.:22:26.

incompetence, and an inability of whoever is in authority to put

:22:27.:22:29.

themselves in the shoes of these people and actually approached them

:22:30.:22:31.

in a caring manner, which will help them. And use the resources that the

:22:32.:22:37.

council have. This is the wealthiest council in the whole of the UK, and

:22:38.:22:41.

they can afford to house these people properly and securely. You

:22:42.:22:45.

mean by using some of the reserves that the council have the buy new

:22:46.:22:51.

properties? Yes. 300 million reserve, they have 1400 empty

:22:52.:22:55.

properties in Kensington and Chelsea. Requisitioning. Do what you

:22:56.:23:02.

need to do, buy them. You can't have a month after a fire of this nature

:23:03.:23:05.

with only 18 families have been rehoused. As I understand it, offers

:23:06.:23:13.

of accommodation have been made to 158 families, 18 have accepted, and

:23:14.:23:16.

we have reported on this programme some of the reasons why others have

:23:17.:23:20.

turned it down, because they are worried about getting something

:23:21.:23:22.

permanent within the borough if they have been offered something

:23:23.:23:26.

temporary outside, or it is just inappropriate, unsuitable, not big

:23:27.:23:31.

enough, or far away. Let me ask you, Melanie, Labour's spokesman on

:23:32.:23:36.

housing, you have this debate in the Commons today, what is the point of

:23:37.:23:41.

it? It is about putting pressure on the government to be as open and

:23:42.:23:44.

transparent as possible about the progress they are making if there

:23:45.:23:47.

has been any, because without doing that the residents are not going to

:23:48.:23:50.

start to see any of the benefits that the government really should be

:23:51.:23:54.

able to offer. We are hoping that there will be answers around the

:23:55.:24:00.

status of the tower blocks around the rest of the country because we

:24:01.:24:03.

know that only 500 have been tested. The focus of the government has been

:24:04.:24:07.

on those tower blocks that have the same kind of cladding is the

:24:08.:24:10.

Grenfell Tower, but there are much bigger questions. If there were to

:24:11.:24:15.

be a fire and another block somewhere in the country, what with

:24:16.:24:18.

the response be? Would it be the same situation all over again,

:24:19.:24:21.

because it is really important that we lose that -- learn the lessons of

:24:22.:24:26.

Grenfell and quickly. We have discovered that the tower blocks

:24:27.:24:32.

that have failed, only half of the blocks have yet had those panels

:24:33.:24:36.

removed. Do you think it could be speeded up? We are saying that a lot

:24:37.:24:41.

of the information coming from government has been so unclear, and

:24:42.:24:45.

that is reflected in the comments of residents from Grenfell. We know

:24:46.:24:49.

that Salford council for examples courted its deep cladding of its

:24:50.:24:52.

tower blocks because of information coming from government about safety

:24:53.:24:57.

has not been clear. Is it safer to keep the cladding on or not? --

:24:58.:25:04.

Kensington and Chelsea council has a new leader. It is Elizabeth

:25:05.:25:10.

Campbell, and she was asked on Radio 4 if she had ever been inside

:25:11.:25:14.

Grenfell Tower. This is what she said. Had you ever been inside? I am

:25:15.:25:23.

going before. Before the fire? I haven't been inside before the fire?

:25:24.:25:31.

Had you ever been inside the traffic tower? Not trailer, not Grenfell,

:25:32.:25:35.

but I have been inside many other council houses. But the high-rise

:25:36.:25:41.

ones, have you ever been inside any of them, before the Grenfell Tower,

:25:42.:25:45.

haven't you ever been up into any of those high-rise council blocks? I

:25:46.:25:50.

had not, but I am certainly doing that now. You are shaking your head.

:25:51.:26:06.

It is a person so disconnected. They are completely disconnected from the

:26:07.:26:10.

community. I would go so far as to say they actually have disdain for

:26:11.:26:16.

the North Kensington community. This new leader, the first thing she did

:26:17.:26:20.

was apologise for the failings of the council to the survivors. Too

:26:21.:26:26.

little, too late, sorry, and she has been implicated in a lot of the cuts

:26:27.:26:32.

we have seen across the borough. We have been talking about the cuts to

:26:33.:26:37.

services. Housing being one of them. And she is implicated in them. How

:26:38.:26:44.

do you react, Pilgrim? Again, I think Moyra is correct in everything

:26:45.:26:49.

she has just said. I think the new council leader has an opportunity

:26:50.:26:52.

here, and I think if she wants to last in her political career, she

:26:53.:26:56.

needs to take drastic action, and they do have the resources to help

:26:57.:27:00.

this situation, and they can rehoused these people, and that

:27:01.:27:03.

would be one way of genuinely showing that she was sorry. So

:27:04.:27:10.

action, not just words. Lucy, hello, Chelsea firefighter and union

:27:11.:27:15.

official. In terms of the firefighters and the magnificent

:27:16.:27:18.

efforts they tried to make that night, where are we now, in terms of

:27:19.:27:24.

when you look back, how things could have been done differently? Firstly

:27:25.:27:29.

I would like to pay tribute to my firefighters who fought tirelessly

:27:30.:27:32.

on that day, the brave men and women but also the control workers who

:27:33.:27:36.

took those calls from those victims, and in many cases heard people

:27:37.:27:39.

perish on the end of the phone. I would like to pay tribute to them. I

:27:40.:27:44.

think everyone involved, including all the emergency services, dealt

:27:45.:27:47.

with the incident amazingly, but I do feel that we didn't have the

:27:48.:27:52.

right resources. Of course it is far too early to speculate. My union are

:27:53.:27:57.

doing the own investigation into the fire. Certainly we feel that the

:27:58.:28:01.

cuts that have affected us over the last three years, we are talking

:28:02.:28:07.

about ?130 million to London Fire emergency and rescue services by the

:28:08.:28:10.

former mayor, now Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, the closure of ten

:28:11.:28:18.

fire station, 29 fire stations -- fire engines taken off-line, the

:28:19.:28:21.

removal of 20,000 firefighters, we think that had an effect. You also

:28:22.:28:25.

didn't have an aerial platform that went high enough, you had one that

:28:26.:28:31.

went up to 32 metres, the tower was 70. You are right, the highest

:28:32.:28:36.

ladder in London is 32 metres, the higher slider in the UK is in

:28:37.:28:40.

Surrey, 42 metres, we have to ask for them to send their ladder, it

:28:41.:28:44.

took hours for it to get us. Again it is too early to speculate what

:28:45.:28:47.

difference that would have made, but we know for instance there is a fire

:28:48.:28:52.

engine or a fire station in Mumbai that has a ladder that goes up to 90

:28:53.:28:58.

metres. Why does the UK, the 13th richest country in the world, not

:28:59.:29:01.

have ladders go up to 90 metres, where they are available? Why do you

:29:02.:29:07.

think? I think our former mayor spent far too much money, ?320,000

:29:08.:29:13.

on illegal water cannons that were useless and not used. Did we used to

:29:14.:29:20.

have big aerial platforms? The money has never been put in. So we have

:29:21.:29:25.

never had one is over 42? Absolutely not, and they have been available to

:29:26.:29:29.

sometimes, there are over 100 ladders that reach up to 90 metres,

:29:30.:29:35.

are -- our highest ladder in London goes up to 32 metres. Jenny tweets

:29:36.:29:40.

this, I cannot believe the complete disregard for the victims of

:29:41.:29:46.

Grenfell. E-mail from Douglas, it is a time to start asking why flammable

:29:47.:29:50.

material is allowed to be manufactured from building purposes

:29:51.:29:53.

at all. Roses as your programme has done more than any other to give

:29:54.:29:56.

voices to the people of Grenfell Tower, and so it goes on. Thank you

:29:57.:30:00.

all of you, we will watch the debate very carefully this afternoon in the

:30:01.:30:02.

Commons. Thank you for coming along. It is half past nine. Time for the

:30:03.:30:09.

latest news headlines with Joanna. Here's Joanna Gosling

:30:10.:30:14.

in the BBC Newsroom President Trump's eldest son has

:30:15.:30:19.

said he didn't tell his father about a meeting last year

:30:20.:30:26.

with a Russian lawyer who was apparently offering to help

:30:27.:30:28.

the Trump election campaign. Yesterday Donald Trump Junior

:30:29.:30:31.

released e-mails which showed he was keen to see what incriminating

:30:32.:30:33.

material the lawyer was prepared to offer on Mr Trump's election

:30:34.:30:35.

rival, Hillary Clinton. Police investigating

:30:36.:30:38.

the Grenfell Tower fire say the task of identifying all the people

:30:39.:30:40.

who died in the tragedy could take many months but they are determined

:30:41.:30:43.

to "return those who died The head of the recovery team says

:30:44.:30:45.

it's the worst incident Today marks four weeks

:30:46.:30:49.

since the devastating fire, and tonight the community will come

:30:50.:30:52.

together for a vigil to honour those And the Victoria Derbyshire

:30:53.:30:55.

programme has found that fewer than half the local authorities

:30:56.:30:58.

with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests

:30:59.:31:05.

have started to remove the material. Following the Grenfell fire

:31:06.:31:08.

the government said it planned to carry out fire safety tests

:31:09.:31:11.

on 600 buildings across England. But despite every test on material

:31:12.:31:14.

taken from those buildings failing, so far only one in three housing

:31:15.:31:17.

associations and councils have That's a summary of

:31:18.:31:19.

the latest BBC News. Johanna Konta is the semi-finals and

:31:20.:31:36.

Andy Murray is hoping to make it this afternoon. Our reporter is

:31:37.:31:43.

there. It is freezing. We are causing

:31:44.:31:49.

chaos. We wanted to show you the Royal Box. This is where might the

:31:50.:31:53.

great and the good come. They have to make it really tidy and clean.

:31:54.:31:58.

They have left behind a little bit of equipment. Maybe I will get to

:31:59.:32:03.

work with that later. It is freezing. I am sure that it should

:32:04.:32:08.

warm up. It has been raining during the night. The forecast is good. We

:32:09.:32:14.

are going to keep our fingers crossed. It is chilly but I am

:32:15.:32:18.

joined by someone you might recognise. Serena Williams' coach.

:32:19.:32:28.

Even though your face. We see you in the box when Serena is playing and

:32:29.:32:33.

you are willing heart on, maybe sometimes showed encouragement.

:32:34.:32:38.

Sometimes. Sometimes cool and not seeing anything. I've tried to send

:32:39.:32:47.

to hire the right vibe. You have a little bit of downtime, not that

:32:48.:32:52.

much because the rear is still keeping fit and playing. She is of

:32:53.:32:56.

having a baby, due in a couple of months. You have taken the

:32:57.:33:01.

opportunity to write your life story and how you came to be coached to

:33:02.:33:04.

one of the greatest athletes of all time. Yes. I wrote a book because my

:33:05.:33:10.

editor proposed me to do it, an autobiography. I felt I was too

:33:11.:33:15.

young but she filed I was old enough. It is explaining how I was a

:33:16.:33:23.

very shy kid, very sick, very bad at school, my future looked terrible

:33:24.:33:30.

and at a certain point when I was 11, 12, 13, I took decisions to

:33:31.:33:34.

change my life and maybe in the future have the chance to live the

:33:35.:33:39.

life I was dreaming of and it happened because I made those

:33:40.:33:43.

changes. My editor vertebra is undressing for people to understand

:33:44.:33:49.

how you can change your life to have a chance to live your dreams. That

:33:50.:33:56.

is what I did. I started at 26 my academy and it is the biggest

:33:57.:34:01.

academy of Europe. I was not a professional tennis player and I was

:34:02.:34:03.

able to work with professional tennis players, great players, and

:34:04.:34:09.

finally Serena, who became the greatest of all time. I cannot be

:34:10.:34:15.

lucky to be able to live that life. It is also the consequence of a few

:34:16.:34:20.

decisions. That is the story of the book. It is exciting even for people

:34:21.:34:25.

who are not into tennis because it is also about life. It is also about

:34:26.:34:34.

coaching. We see players compete, we lose all this emotion. People do not

:34:35.:34:37.

know what is done behind-the-scenes. That is what I explain. Let me make

:34:38.:34:44.

use of your coaching experience and ask what Johanna Konta should be

:34:45.:34:49.

focusing on. The first British woman through to a semifinal in 39 years.

:34:50.:34:54.

I understand why you keep your eyes on that. It is going to be difficult

:34:55.:35:00.

match for her because she is facing Venus is the best the four players

:35:01.:35:05.

still in the draw on grass. She has been so successful in the last 15,

:35:06.:35:15.

20 years. Five trophies here and the mike other finals. She played the

:35:16.:35:19.

final of the first Grand Slam of the season. Johanna Konta will have to

:35:20.:35:27.

beat her. I am so impressed by what she has done so far. So focused, so

:35:28.:35:34.

good on the big points. Whenever she had to defend her serve she has been

:35:35.:35:39.

doing incredibly well. She has been really impressive. She has to be

:35:40.:35:45.

tired physically and mentally. So many tough fights. When you have to

:35:46.:35:51.

stay into the match for two and a half hours and you cannot afford to

:35:52.:35:55.

lose your server, you defend points, you play two tie-breaks, she left a

:35:56.:36:02.

lot of mental strength on all of those fights she had to face. I hope

:36:03.:36:06.

she will be able to keep the same level of intensity for every point

:36:07.:36:13.

because she will have to. How battle is mental. Andy Murray's battle is

:36:14.:36:18.

more physical and with himself, managing an injury. That is true. It

:36:19.:36:23.

is so difficult to play being injured. It is sad because he

:36:24.:36:29.

finally comes back to a good level just before Wimbledon at the right

:36:30.:36:33.

time after making an enormous effort to become world number one in the

:36:34.:36:38.

world, physical and mental. I was very impressed with what he did last

:36:39.:36:43.

year. When you make such an effort you pay the price afterwards that is

:36:44.:36:47.

what happened at the start of the season, he was exhausted mentally.

:36:48.:36:52.

He reached his ultimate goal. When you do so you need time to be said.

:36:53.:36:59.

It is a difficult period. He is back and he has a problem with his hip.

:37:00.:37:04.

He has been managing that not so bad. When you reach this stage you

:37:05.:37:11.

have to be 100%. How is Serena? When can we see her back? She wants to be

:37:12.:37:17.

back so bad. She is seven months pregnant. She is so happy about

:37:18.:37:23.

becoming a mother but she misses matches. She is unable to compete

:37:24.:37:30.

and she is wanting other bee book on beating. When she announced she was

:37:31.:37:36.

pregnant she said I am pregnant but I am not done with tennis. Please

:37:37.:37:42.

wait for me. I will be back soon. I will be waiting for her. She wants

:37:43.:37:47.

to come back as early as she can. We do not know how long it will take

:37:48.:37:51.

for her body to recover but you will see her again definitely. Thank you

:37:52.:37:58.

for joining us. Serena taking a very unusual approach to maternity leave.

:37:59.:38:02.

I thought you were supposed to sit on your silver and eat somebody's

:38:03.:38:08.

and chocolate. She does, but she plays tennis every day. That is

:38:09.:38:21.

unusual. It is good to know that the emergency alarm is working

:38:22.:38:29.

perfectly! Unemployment fell by 64,000 down to 1.49 million in the

:38:30.:38:42.

three months to me. Average earnings increased by 1.8% in the year to

:38:43.:38:50.

May, down by 0.3% on the previous month, average earnings increasing

:38:51.:38:55.

across the whole year by 1.8% but that is down by 0.3% on the previous

:38:56.:38:57.

month. A gay man fighting to win his

:38:58.:39:12.

husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy in a heterosexual

:39:13.:39:15.

relationship has told this programme he felt the law

:39:16.:39:17.

was "totally discriminatory". Former cavalry officer John Walker,

:39:18.:39:19.

who's 65, will find out the result of his battle at the UK's highest

:39:20.:39:22.

court in the next few minutes. He wants to ensure that

:39:23.:39:25.

if he died first, his husband, who is in his 50s, will be

:39:26.:39:28.

adequately provided for. Speaking to me before the ruling,

:39:29.:39:30.

he said the decision would be "the end of the legal road" for him

:39:31.:39:33.

after an 11 year fight. I joined a company where I had to

:39:34.:39:39.

join the pension fund, it was contributed a, I paid and 423 years

:39:40.:39:43.

the same as other colleagues. The fact I had a civil partnership and

:39:44.:39:47.

married a same-sex partner, my partner will get no disposal pension

:39:48.:39:54.

rights whereas if I was divorced, to divorce my partner and marry a woman

:39:55.:40:00.

she would get full rights, thousands of pounds. It is total

:40:01.:40:06.

discrimination. In cash terms, if you died and had the wife, how much

:40:07.:40:11.

would she get and how much would your husband get? She would get

:40:12.:40:15.

somewhere between ?45,000 and ?50,000 a year and my husband would

:40:16.:40:22.

get somewhere between ?500 in ?1000 a year. Explain the law. We have

:40:23.:40:28.

human rights law and equality law and we have equal marriage but we

:40:29.:40:33.

only have equal married in name because there is this loophole in

:40:34.:40:39.

the quality legislation which means that people in same-sex marriages

:40:40.:40:43.

cannot have the same pension rights as people in heterosexual marriages.

:40:44.:40:47.

It is civil partnerships as well. Correct. In the past this has gone

:40:48.:40:55.

against you. If things go your way today what are the implications for

:40:56.:41:00.

others? It means that thousands of loving couples all over the UK can

:41:01.:41:06.

have equal access to pension arrangements and equal marriage

:41:07.:41:09.

looks more like equal marriage and we can properly claim to be an equal

:41:10.:41:15.

and human rights compliant society so we hope that is what happens and

:41:16.:41:19.

even if we do not win the case the couple -- government can do the

:41:20.:41:25.

right thing. You have been fighting this case for 11 years. What has

:41:26.:41:31.

that been like? Stressful. But life goes on. The end of the legal road

:41:32.:41:43.

today. 11.5 years. It is a big day. How have you been affected in terms

:41:44.:41:47.

of your life as a couple? How has this impacted on you both? We have

:41:48.:41:52.

tried not to let it impact too much. We have had huge support from Martha

:41:53.:41:57.

and her colleagues, from many friends and people from our company.

:41:58.:42:04.

It is stressful because I am a reasonably organised person, I'd

:42:05.:42:09.

like to plan things and have things planned, it is likely statistically

:42:10.:42:15.

that I will predeceased my husband, I am older than him, so I would like

:42:16.:42:21.

to have everything tied up. Maybe today will be able to do that, maybe

:42:22.:42:30.

not. Thank you. We are expecting the judgment any moment. As soon as we

:42:31.:42:35.

hear it we will bring it to you live.

:42:36.:42:38.

This programme has learned that artists are being advised not

:42:39.:42:40.

to state publicly who they're inspired by on their new music

:42:41.:42:43.

because of fears it could lead to lawsuits

:42:44.:42:45.

It follows the high-profile case in which US jurors ruled that

:42:46.:42:48.

Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams, on their track Blurred Lines,

:42:49.:42:51.

had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up.

:42:52.:42:53.

An appeal against that ruling is due to be heard over

:42:54.:42:56.

Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu has been looking at claims that that

:42:57.:43:03.

judgement has left the music industry "nervous" and

:43:04.:43:05.

MUSIC: Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke ft TI, Pharrell

:43:06.:43:08.

This is the story of two songs

:43:09.:43:18.

and one court judgment and its impact

:43:19.:43:19.

I think it was decided in a way that has got everybody feeling a

:43:20.:43:25.

I hate all this, "Oh, I'm completely original," you know, "I've

:43:26.:43:37.

Because some are now asking whether they should stop even

:43:38.:43:43.

talking about artists who inspire them.

:43:44.:43:51.

So do you know of labels telling artists not to publicly

:43:52.:43:53.

So, what is the difference, if any, between being inspired by a

:43:54.:44:07.

Got To Give It Up by Marvin Gaye was released in

:44:08.:44:19.

1977 and reached number seven in the UK charts and number one

:44:20.:44:22.

Blurred Lines was globally the biggest track of 2013,

:44:23.:44:30.

raking in more than ?12 million in profits from sales alone.

:44:31.:44:36.

In 2015 Pharrell Williams and Robin Thicke

:44:37.:44:39.

were told their track Blurred Lines breached copyright.

:44:40.:44:45.

Marvin Gaye's estate was awarded just over

:44:46.:44:48.

?4 million and 50% interest in future royalties.

:44:49.:44:54.

Pharrell Williams told the court that Marvin Gaye's music was the

:44:55.:45:01.

soundtrack of his youth and that he was channelling that 70s feeling.

:45:02.:45:05.

Note the use of the word feeling in this deposition video

:45:06.:45:07.

When you were creating Blurred Lines, were you

:45:08.:45:12.

trying to pretend that you were Marvin Gaye?

:45:13.:45:15.

But as I look back I feel that feeling when I went in the

:45:16.:45:26.

studio to work with Robin I sought out a bluegrassy chord structure

:45:27.:45:29.

that I felt like could be interesting on a soulful voice.

:45:30.:45:33.

It felt like Marvin Gaye going into Nashville making a groove.

:45:34.:45:36.

What you try and do with copyright is work

:45:37.:45:38.

Peter Oxendale is one of a handful of

:45:39.:45:42.

forensic musicologists in the world and he says the judgment

:45:43.:45:48.

was about the feel or the groove of the song,

:45:49.:45:50.

not copying directly, and it's had huge implications.

:45:51.:45:52.

So it's not just a group of notes or a lyric that's

:45:53.:45:55.

It's just, maybe I was inspired by your watch, basically?

:45:56.:46:04.

Simply nothing's really changed but everyone's concerned that

:46:05.:46:06.

inspiration can be a catalyst for infringement.

:46:07.:46:10.

And so all of these companies are worried that if a

:46:11.:46:13.

track is referenced on another at all that there may be a claim being

:46:14.:46:16.

brought, and what they are really fearful of is a claim being brought

:46:17.:46:19.

Over in California, Richard Busch, the

:46:20.:46:27.

Gayes' family lawyer, says that's not true.

:46:28.:46:30.

That is the story that the Pharrell and Robin Thicke camp have

:46:31.:46:35.

been telling to try to drum up support for this the-sky-is-falling,

:46:36.:46:40.

no-one's-going-to-be-able-to-create- music,

:46:41.:46:45.

you'll-be-sued-for-whistling-in-pub- lic kind of argument

:46:46.:46:46.

If anyone was actually aware of the evidence and the facts

:46:47.:46:52.

that were presented, you would know that it

:46:53.:46:54.

This inspiration, this feeling that they

:46:55.:46:58.

try to say was the basis for the decision.

:46:59.:47:02.

In fact, I believe we had 15 different compositional elements

:47:03.:47:05.

that we identified as being substantially similar between

:47:06.:47:07.

Well, maybe Pharrell's camp are winning in the courts of public

:47:08.:47:15.

opinion, because questions and doubts

:47:16.:47:16.

are still being raised in the

:47:17.:47:21.

industry, as Ed Sheeran's lawyer Simon Dixon can confirm.

:47:22.:47:23.

It wouldn't have been decided the same

:47:24.:47:27.

way over here, so as a result I think everybody felt that they knew

:47:28.:47:32.

what the law was, I felt they knew what the parameters were.

:47:33.:47:35.

And when you know what the laws are and the

:47:36.:47:37.

This injects an element of grey into the picture.

:47:38.:47:41.

So as a result people are less certain now about what they

:47:42.:47:44.

can and can't do, and as a result, as I say, everybody feels

:47:45.:47:47.

So those are the behind-the-scenes arguments but what

:47:48.:47:51.

about the artists who write, compose, produce

:47:52.:47:53.

We're all inspired by something, there's influence in everything.

:47:54.:48:04.

But I just think the responsibility of

:48:05.:48:06.

the songwriter is always to push forward, which always involves

:48:07.:48:08.

nodding back, which is important too.

:48:09.:48:15.

But I think if you're feeling self-conscious about that I think

:48:16.:48:19.

there's another battle going on there...

:48:20.:48:20.

There is no such thing as a completely original composition.

:48:21.:48:30.

We learn music by practising, and what

:48:31.:48:32.

We practise patterns, we practise scales.

:48:33.:48:37.

We're reinterpreting these formulas over

:48:38.:48:38.

You know, if I play a song that goes doo-doo doo-doo, I'm

:48:39.:48:53.

playing doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo.

:48:54.:48:56.

The art of music-making is the reinterpretation

:48:57.:48:58.

We all listen to stuff and we all get ideas

:48:59.:49:12.

The trick of it, I think, is trying to turn those ideas into

:49:13.:49:18.

something new, rather than just repeat them or copy them.

:49:19.:49:21.

I mean, I know how to write songs because I heard one, so

:49:22.:49:28.

I know what a verse is and a chorus is and a break and all those things.

:49:29.:49:32.

You only learn that by listening to it.

:49:33.:49:34.

So you are influenced simply by listening to music.

:49:35.:49:40.

Even if you don't like the music, it's going to

:49:41.:49:43.

And according to experts, just to be on

:49:44.:49:49.

the safe side, labels are cautiously making sure new music from their

:49:50.:49:52.

artists doesn't skirt too closely to work from the past.

:49:53.:49:54.

The process is known as forensically checking music.

:49:55.:49:59.

Many of the companies that I work with ask the producers and the

:50:00.:50:02.

artists to declare all of the tracks that may have been used as

:50:03.:50:05.

They send them to me well in advance of release, probably six months

:50:06.:50:12.

producers and composers, from Hans Zimmer to R Kelly, signed

:50:13.:50:27.

a court document backing Blurred Lines

:50:28.:50:31.

was allowed to stand it is very dangerous to the music community

:50:32.:50:35.

and is certain to stifle creativity and impede the creative process.

:50:36.:50:38.

But the battle lines were drawn when musicologists

:50:39.:50:40.

and acts behind hits like Could It Be I'm Falling In

:50:41.:50:42.

Love, along with other businesses, backed the Marvin Gaye family

:50:43.:50:45.

calling the motion hypothetical, because the decision was based on

:50:46.:50:48.

disputed evidence about protectable aspects

:50:49.:50:50.

I think it's a great shame because, speaking personally, I've

:50:51.:50:58.

been influenced by Motown, rock and roll, punk,

:50:59.:51:01.

all this stuff, 90s music, dance music, and if I am a

:51:02.:51:04.

good musician, I hope I am, or musicologist,

:51:05.:51:06.

because of all these influences taken on board, I'm proud

:51:07.:51:08.

of these influences and it's a great shame that artists are actually

:51:09.:51:11.

disinclined to reveal their inspirations.

:51:12.:51:23.

In the Blurred Lines case, Robin Thicke's interviews went

:51:24.:51:25.

well beyond saying that he was simply inspired

:51:26.:51:27.

What he said in his interviews was that he and Pharrell, or he

:51:28.:51:33.

directed Pharrell, to create a song

:51:34.:51:34.

just like Got To Give It Up, and that they tried to get the same

:51:35.:51:38.

rhythm and those types of things going in

:51:39.:51:40.

So it's much more than just inspiration.

:51:41.:51:43.

In just over two months, Pharrell Williams,

:51:44.:51:45.

Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate will be back in court in the

:51:46.:51:48.

If Pharrell wins, it could mean a brand-new trial and the music

:51:49.:51:54.

industry has to go through this whole thing again.

:51:55.:52:01.

Whatever the verdict, it does seem that the

:52:02.:52:03.

industry will be extremely wary about copyright, as well as

:52:04.:52:05.

creativity, when it comes to releasing new music.

:52:06.:52:10.

Later in the programme, we'll be getting reaction

:52:11.:52:12.

She organised the concert that raised ?2 million

:52:13.:52:21.

for victims of the terror attack in Manchester, but should singer

:52:22.:52:23.

Ariana Grande be given honorary citizenship of the city?

:52:24.:52:25.

We'll talk to two survivors with very different opinions.

:52:26.:52:35.

Another little bit of history was made at Wimbledon yesterday

:52:36.:52:38.

when Johanna Konta became Britain's first female Wimbledon semi-finalist

:52:39.:52:40.

since Virginia Wade almost 40 years ago in 1978.

:52:41.:52:50.

It's been 39 years since a British woman can say, I'm a

:52:51.:53:09.

She's done it in front of the last woman to do it, Virginia Wade.

:53:10.:53:37.

It raises the very tantalising prospect that a Brit

:53:38.:53:39.

could win both the women's and men's title at

:53:40.:53:41.

Not to forget a potential third title for Andy's brother

:53:42.:53:50.

Jamie Murray who is progressing well in the mixed doubles.

:53:51.:53:53.

Johanna Konta's rise to the top of British tennis has been

:53:54.:53:55.

Last year she didn't get past the second round of Wimbledon.

:53:56.:53:59.

So for the next few minutes, here's everything you need

:54:00.:54:02.

In 2009, she was ranked 469 in the world.

:54:03.:54:07.

Two years ago in 2015, she was ranked 126 in the world,

:54:08.:54:10.

last year she was ranked 19th, and now she's officially ranked

:54:11.:54:13.

Though that will change after Wimbledon.

:54:14.:54:16.

In the past 12 months she's won titles in Los

:54:17.:54:19.

She was born to Hungarian parents in Sydney, Australia,

:54:20.:54:34.

and lived there till the age of 14 when she move to the UK,

:54:35.:54:37.

she officially took British citizenship and began playing

:54:38.:54:39.

I've always, ever since I moved here, I've spent

:54:40.:54:45.

I really, essentially, grew into the tennis

:54:46.:54:48.

player but also, more importantly, the person I am today here.

:54:49.:54:51.

It was never a case of me feeling more and more British.

:54:52.:54:55.

She was introduced to tennis at the age of eight and soon became

:54:56.:55:07.

fiercely competitive. She has described herself as highly strung

:55:08.:55:10.

in the past, and acknowledges that she once reduce the assisted the

:55:11.:55:15.

tears during a game of Monopoly. The family are not particularly sporty,

:55:16.:55:18.

her dad runs hotels and her mum is a dentist but they have always

:55:19.:55:19.

supported her in her career. One of her grandfathers,

:55:20.:55:35.

Tamas Kertesz, played twice for Hungary in the 1950s

:55:36.:55:38.

and went on to coach Ghana. She's coached by Wim Fissette,

:55:39.:55:41.

who has previously helped former world No 1s Victoria Azarenka

:55:42.:55:47.

and Kim Clijsters. Her boyfriend Jackson Wade

:55:48.:55:50.

has been cheering her They've been dating since

:55:51.:55:52.

she won the Miami Open - thought she's fiercely private

:55:53.:55:55.

about her private life. She lists movies, reading

:55:56.:55:57.

and shopping among things she likes to do in her spare time

:55:58.:55:59.

She's also a huge fan of Van Morrison and U2, saying she's

:56:00.:56:02.

remortage her house for a chance Last year she went to see

:56:03.:56:05.

Taylor Swift in Hyde Park She keeps a relatively low profile

:56:06.:56:09.

and is fairly unshowy compared to other tennis stars -

:56:10.:56:13.

admitting she's not too She has however been able

:56:14.:56:15.

to ditch her old Peugeot hatchback for a fancy red Jaguar,

:56:16.:56:19.

given to her by her sponsor. You've no doubt heard plenty

:56:20.:56:21.

about Johanna Konta baking muffins every day after Wimbledon -

:56:22.:56:24.

she's a bit of a foodie overall and says she's "always hungry" -

:56:25.:56:27.

but never deprives herself of anything, including

:56:28.:56:29.

pizza and gelato. A typical day's diet

:56:30.:56:30.

would be - for breakfast - and a slice of rye toast

:56:31.:56:33.

with ham....then for lunch - tuna salad, and a bowl of steamed

:56:34.:56:37.

brown rice...and for dinner - pizza with ham and mushrooms

:56:38.:56:40.

and a salad....with snacks of bananas and blueberry

:56:41.:56:42.

and raspberry chia pudding. Justin Sherring is owner and head

:56:43.:56:54.

coach at Weybridge Tennis Academy and coached Johanna Konta

:56:55.:56:57.

in her teens What was she like then? Very much

:56:58.:57:05.

like you see her now, very bubbly, very enthusiastic, very passionate

:57:06.:57:10.

and very focused. Did she say to you back then I want to win Wimbledon? I

:57:11.:57:16.

don't think she did, but if she did she might have said it with a big

:57:17.:57:24.

tongue in her cheek, but as we have seen over the last couple of years,

:57:25.:57:26.

she means business, and she meant business back on the day when she

:57:27.:57:30.

was training very hard for this moment. Did you see potential in her

:57:31.:57:36.

the winning a grand slam title? I saw potential as someone who could

:57:37.:57:40.

play at a very high level. I didn't know whether that level was grand

:57:41.:57:44.

slam semifinalist or Wimbledon winner potentially. But I knew that

:57:45.:57:48.

she could play at a very high level. She had some very special. Do you

:57:49.:57:53.

think she will win at this time, don't say you hope she is. The

:57:54.:58:01.

title. I think she can win the title, let's just say, she is

:58:02.:58:04.

hitting the ball well enough and she plays like she has I think she can

:58:05.:58:12.

do it, yes. Thank you rematch, Justin. The latest news and sport on

:58:13.:58:16.

the way, before that all of the weather forward modern and the rest

:58:17.:58:17.

of the UK. Much improved conditions across the

:58:18.:58:25.

country after all the cloud and outbreaks of heavy rain across the

:58:26.:58:28.

south-east. Conditions will continue to improve and it becomes largely

:58:29.:58:32.

dry with plenty in the way of sunshine developing as we head to

:58:33.:58:35.

the afternoon, that rain clearing the Kent and Sussex coast, allowing

:58:36.:58:40.

the sunshine through the Southern counties, and across the country

:58:41.:58:44.

with light winds, feeling quite pleasant in the sunshine,

:58:45.:58:45.

temperatures widely reaching the high teens and the low 20s. So for

:58:46.:58:50.

one wouldn't conditions will be fine proved why the afternoon commute can

:58:51.:58:53.

swap the umbrella for some sunscreen as we are expecting some sunshine,

:58:54.:58:57.

dry conditions and temperatures reaching up to 22. We continue with

:58:58.:59:01.

fine weather as we head into the evening, high there with us, long

:59:02.:59:05.

clear spells overnight and turning quite chilly, especially for some

:59:06.:59:10.

sheltered rural glens. Tomorrow, Kauto Star, sunshine around but also

:59:11.:59:13.

scattered showers developing, but the bulk of those showers for

:59:14.:59:16.

Northern Ireland and north-western parts of Scotland. Temperatures

:59:17.:59:20.

still reaching the high teens and low 20s. That is your forecast.

:59:21.:59:28.

Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

:59:29.:59:40.

The community of the Grenfell Tower fire have said they are struggling.

:59:41.:59:49.

I had not been inside before the fire. I have been inside many other

:59:50.:00:02.

council houses. The council are completely disconnected from the

:00:03.:00:06.

community. They have disdain for the north -- north Kensington community.

:00:07.:00:20.

Plus this programme has discovered that fewer than half the local

:00:21.:00:23.

authority areas with tower blocks that have failed safety tests have

:00:24.:00:26.

I have lots of questions in my head and I still do not. There is still

:00:27.:00:31.

no clarity as to how safe we are. She helped raise ?2 million for the

:00:32.:00:51.

victims of the fire but Bush -- of the terror attack in Manchester but

:00:52.:00:55.

should she be made an honorary citizen of the city? Artists are

:00:56.:01:04.

being encouraged not to reveal who has inspired them for fear that they

:01:05.:01:07.

will be done with copyright infringement. This index grain to

:01:08.:01:13.

the picture so people are less certain about what they can and

:01:14.:01:20.

cannot do. We will talk to the lead singer of Star sailor about how this

:01:21.:01:21.

issue affects his work. John Walker, we heard from him in

:01:22.:01:38.

the last half hour, has won back his Supreme Court battle to secure his

:01:39.:01:41.

husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy. The ex-cavalry

:01:42.:01:49.

officer, 65, has won back his 11 year long legal battle to secure his

:01:50.:01:53.

husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy. We can talk to our

:01:54.:02:01.

legal correspondent at the Supreme Court. Incredible news for John

:02:02.:02:07.

Walker. Fill us in. Incredible news for John Walker and his spouse but

:02:08.:02:13.

also great news for spouses in same-sex marriages and civil

:02:14.:02:19.

partners because this was about... John Walker had an issue... He had

:02:20.:02:25.

worked for a company for 23 years, starting around 1980 and ending in

:02:26.:02:35.

2003, and at the time he saw... Civil partnerships were not lawful

:02:36.:02:37.

and neither were same-sex partnerships. Same-sex marriages

:02:38.:02:43.

became lawful in 2005 and shortly after he and his partner entered the

:02:44.:02:49.

civil partnership and are married. He wanted his partner to have the

:02:50.:02:54.

security of knowing that when Mr Walker died his spouse would be

:02:55.:03:04.

entitled to the full pension. They relied on an exemption that said the

:03:05.:03:10.

company could discount the years of service of paying into the pension

:03:11.:03:15.

that predated the coming into force of civil partnerships so anything

:03:16.:03:21.

before December 2005 needing ended effectively be discounted. That made

:03:22.:03:24.

a massive difference to his partner and would've meant that upon Mr

:03:25.:03:30.

Walker's death the pension his partner would of got would have been

:03:31.:03:39.

around ?1000 as opposed to ?46,000. A massive difference. The Supreme

:03:40.:03:44.

Court has ruled that that cuts out in the Equality Act, that exemption

:03:45.:03:48.

that allows those benefits that accrued before 2005 to be

:03:49.:03:53.

disregarded, that contravenes ideas in breach of EU law and that cutout,

:03:54.:03:58.

that exemption, as to be death applied. In all cases.

:03:59.:04:12.

That will allow his partner to get the full pension of ?46,000 per

:04:13.:04:20.

annum. This has huge implications because the judge is not limited to

:04:21.:04:29.

this case, this applies generally to same-sex marriages and civil

:04:30.:04:31.

partnerships across the board, and that is huge. Thank you. As soon as

:04:32.:04:39.

John Walker comes out of the building, we will hopefully talk to

:04:40.:04:44.

him live about this news which she has been fighting force for 11

:04:45.:04:49.

years, he has been -- he was telling us earlier.

:04:50.:04:51.

Here's Joanna Gosling in the BBC Newsroom

:04:52.:04:55.

Donald Trump Junior has said he didn't tell his father

:04:56.:04:59.

about a meeting he had with a Russian lawyer during last

:05:00.:05:02.

year's US election campaign because there was nothing to tell.

:05:03.:05:04.

Yesterday he released emails which showed he was keen to see

:05:05.:05:07.

what incriminating material the lawyer was prepared

:05:08.:05:08.

to offer on his father's rival, Hillary Clinton.

:05:09.:05:10.

Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say the task

:05:11.:05:12.

of identifying all the people who died in the tragedy could take

:05:13.:05:15.

many months but they are determined to "return those who died

:05:16.:05:18.

The head of the recovery team says it's the worst incident

:05:19.:05:22.

Today marks four weeks since the devastating fire,

:05:23.:05:25.

and tonight the community will come together for a vigil to honour those

:05:26.:05:28.

And the Victoria Derbyshire programme has found that fewer

:05:29.:05:33.

than half the local authorities with tower blocks wrapped in panels

:05:34.:05:37.

that have failed fire safety tests have started to remove the material.

:05:38.:05:50.

Following the Grenfell fire the government said it planned

:05:51.:05:52.

to carry out fire safety tests on 600 buildings across England.

:05:53.:05:55.

But despite every test on material taken from those buildings failing,

:05:56.:05:58.

so far only one in three housing associations and councils have

:05:59.:06:00.

Unemployment fell in the three months to May,

:06:01.:06:03.

The jobless rate has dropped to lows last seen in 1975 at 4.5%.

:06:04.:06:09.

But the data also show that pay is not keeping up with price rises,

:06:10.:06:12.

meaning households are feeling the strain of rising prices

:06:13.:06:15.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

:06:16.:06:19.

On the pension news we have just brought to you, the ruling from the

:06:20.:06:31.

Supreme Court, emails to say I have been accept that occupational

:06:32.:06:35.

pensions which will not give my survival is pension to my common-law

:06:36.:06:39.

partner who I have lived with for over eight years, unless I marry

:06:40.:06:44.

her. I do not want to be forced to marry. These pension trustees are a

:06:45.:06:48.

law to themselves to drive to cut costs. Just marry her! Life is

:06:49.:06:51.

short. Get in touch. It hasn't happened for 39 years

:06:52.:06:58.

but Johanna Konta has She's the latest British woman

:06:59.:07:04.

to reach the semi-finals of Wimbledon after a thrilling 2-1

:07:05.:07:10.

win on Centre Court last night. It's hard to think that

:07:11.:07:18.

Johanna Konta had only won one match Now, after a nerve shredding victory

:07:19.:07:21.

against Simona Halep, I've always believed in my own

:07:22.:07:26.

ability and I've always dreamt big. But I don't give myself

:07:27.:07:32.

too much time to dream As is often the British

:07:33.:07:39.

way on Centre Court, She lost the first set

:07:40.:07:48.

on a tie-break against the second seed, not playing badly,

:07:49.:07:52.

she just needed to find Relying on a powerful serve

:07:53.:07:54.

and a booming backhand seemed Konta credits much of her rise up

:07:55.:07:58.

the rankings to the work on the mental side of the game

:07:59.:08:04.

and under this pressure you could Outside they tried to make

:08:05.:08:07.

themselves heard through it. The first British woman

:08:08.:08:13.

into the semi final since Konta winning over new fans

:08:14.:08:23.

and a few older ones as well. Today all eyes will be on defending

:08:24.:08:29.

champ Andy Murray and his semi-final against American big-server Sam

:08:30.:08:32.

Querrey. In practise yesterday,

:08:33.:08:35.

he still looked like he was He's aiming for an eighth

:08:36.:08:37.

semi-final, and his match against the number 24 seed gets

:08:38.:08:43.

underway around 1pm. And Querrey has embraced

:08:44.:08:47.

his underdog billing. He is the defending champion, number

:08:48.:08:58.

one in the world, you just have to go out and play your best and hope

:08:59.:09:02.

things go your way. He is going to be the favourite no matter who he

:09:03.:09:05.

plays. I will have to play extremely well to get past him. I am going to

:09:06.:09:12.

play aggressive and hopefully get a lot of first serves and play finds

:09:13.:09:14.

of tennis when I can. So let's take a quick look

:09:15.:09:19.

at the rest of today's action. Once Andy Murray finishes up

:09:20.:09:22.

on Centre court Roger Federer steps And Novak Djokovic is also playing

:09:23.:09:24.

today taking on Tomas Berdych. The number two seed has spoken out

:09:25.:09:28.

about his unhappiness with The umpire at the end of the match

:09:29.:09:40.

asked me about the whole because midway through the match I mentioned

:09:41.:09:44.

there was the whole and he wanted me to show him so I showed him. His

:09:45.:09:51.

reaction was not that great. I guess grounds men and everyone is doing

:09:52.:09:55.

their best. I have no doubt that they are giving their best to have

:09:56.:10:02.

the court in the most playable condition possible at this moment

:10:03.:10:05.

but it is what it is. It's four weeks now since

:10:06.:10:08.

the devastating fire which destroyed Grenfell Tower in Kensington -

:10:09.:10:30.

and this programme has discovered that fewer than half the local

:10:31.:10:32.

authority areas with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed

:10:33.:10:35.

fire safety tests have started People were talking about the

:10:36.:10:42.

cladding on the outside of the building and people are thinking

:10:43.:10:44.

that might have contributed to this bead with which the fire spread and

:10:45.:10:47.

the government have said that there have been 600 tests on similar

:10:48.:10:53.

blocks around the country. 255 have come back as a feel on fire safety,

:10:54.:10:59.

that is every test so far. What are people doing? We spoke to councils

:11:00.:11:08.

and housing associations rather than councils in 36 areas affected. Of

:11:09.:11:12.

those, in 13 areas, one in three, they have started taking this

:11:13.:11:15.

material down and in another ten they are planning to do so. This is

:11:16.:11:23.

material we think is banned in other countries, the US, Germany, but it

:11:24.:11:26.

is still in many of these blocks in this country. Why are councils and

:11:27.:11:32.

council associations not acting more quickly? Just because they failed

:11:33.:11:38.

thus one fire safety test, that does not mince a thoroughly mean that the

:11:39.:11:42.

whole building is unsafe, that is the argument. This is one part of

:11:43.:11:48.

the wider system that involves insulation and everything else and

:11:49.:11:51.

they say if they start ripping off these panels on the outside that

:11:52.:11:54.

could make things even more dangerous. Could it expose material

:11:55.:12:01.

underneath? Someone flicks a cigarette out of the window it could

:12:02.:12:07.

cause problems. Fire safety experts think this material will have to

:12:08.:12:11.

come down in the long-term. One said it is like dressing in the flammable

:12:12.:12:15.

clothing and standing next to a naked flame. Eventually it will have

:12:16.:12:22.

to come down. There is this split between councils who have decided to

:12:23.:12:26.

actually do we and others saying it will take time and they have to

:12:27.:12:30.

think it through. What about other forms of fire protection?

:12:31.:12:37.

Sprinklers? Sprinklers is interesting. There is a split

:12:38.:12:40.

depending where you live. If you build a new tower block more than 30

:12:41.:12:46.

metres height you have to set sprinklers. If you refurbish a block

:12:47.:12:49.

you do not have to do it and that was the case with Grenfell Tower.

:12:50.:12:55.

Plenty of people thinking that is going to have to change. It was the

:12:56.:13:00.

recommendation in 2009 after a similar fire in south London but it

:13:01.:13:04.

has not happened everywhere. It depends where you live. In one

:13:05.:13:09.

council they say they are going to fit sprinklers in every block over

:13:10.:13:14.

ten stories, that is 100 blocks that area alone. You can see how much

:13:15.:13:20.

that might cost. Sheffield are fitting in 24 areas. Others saying

:13:21.:13:23.

they will not go down that route at the moment. One resident in

:13:24.:13:31.

Islington... Sorry, we are going to hear from John Walker outside the

:13:32.:13:33.

Supreme Court on the pension ruling. ... Just. My husband and I can get

:13:34.:13:44.

on with enjoying the rest of our lives together. It is to our

:13:45.:13:49.

government's great shame that it has taken so many years, huge amounts of

:13:50.:13:54.

taxpayers' money and the UK's highest court to drag them into the

:13:55.:13:59.

21st-century. In the years since we started this legal challenge, how

:14:00.:14:04.

many people have spent their final days uncertain about whether their

:14:05.:14:09.

loved one will be looked after? How many people have been left

:14:10.:14:12.

unprovided for having already suffered the loss of their partner?

:14:13.:14:18.

I would like Theresa May and her ministers today to make a formal

:14:19.:14:26.

commitment that this change will stay on the statute books. After

:14:27.:14:34.

Brexit. I would like to thank the people who have made this possible.

:14:35.:14:40.

As a grey-haired pensioner I wanted to take on a ?1 billion each year

:14:41.:14:47.

large super chemical company, not a chance in the world, but thanks to

:14:48.:14:53.

Liberty who are here to support little people like me, we went out

:14:54.:15:00.

and took them on. After round one a classic David and Goliath, Goliath

:15:01.:15:04.

decided he needed help so he brought in the Department for Work and

:15:05.:15:08.

Pensions, her majesties government, a big lot to take on, but thanks to

:15:09.:15:14.

these people we were able to do it. The liberty of the phone two

:15:15.:15:19.

amazingly talented incredibly hard-working very professional and

:15:20.:15:22.

beyond anything else really passionate barristers. One of them

:15:23.:15:31.

is here today, Max, Max and Martin. They have won this case today. It

:15:32.:15:37.

has taken 5.5 years to get here. A long journey. Those people have made

:15:38.:15:42.

it possible with liberty for a little person might need to take on

:15:43.:15:51.

the government. We can all do it. There is one other person out there,

:15:52.:15:55.

you know who you are, who made it possible for me to come to the

:15:56.:15:59.

Supreme Court. Many of my family have been incredibly supportive over

:16:00.:16:02.

the years and my husband who is not here today, he is with a family

:16:03.:16:06.

sadness but thank you, thank you very much. John Walker, amazing.

:16:07.:16:14.

Absolutely delighted he has been trying to get the same rights as

:16:15.:16:17.

heterosexual married couples and today he has done it, for him and

:16:18.:16:24.

his husband, this text from MDL, thank you, John Walker, fighting to

:16:25.:16:30.

make life better for all people. This text from Richard, I am a

:16:31.:16:33.

heterosexual married man, if gay people breathe the same air as me

:16:34.:16:38.

and pay the same taxes, they should have the same rights. Let's carry on

:16:39.:16:44.

our conversation, I beg you pardon, who will carry on with Jim just a

:16:45.:16:48.

second ballot IS go back to the Supreme Court because Clive is with

:16:49.:16:56.

John Walker. John, you have just broken about your long battle, have

:16:57.:17:00.

you had a chance to speak to your husband? I haven't. I hope I will in

:17:01.:17:07.

a minute, so very excited. Just explain why it was so important for

:17:08.:17:10.

you as a couple to have the security knowing that should you predeceased

:17:11.:17:14.

him he will have that full pension? I think it would be the same with

:17:15.:17:18.

any couple, whether it is heterosexual or same sex, somebody

:17:19.:17:21.

that you love, that person you want to make sure is looked after as long

:17:22.:17:25.

as they are alive. I am other than him, therefore statistically the

:17:26.:17:28.

chances are that I will buy before him. I wanted to ensure he was

:17:29.:17:32.

looked after. He should be and he will be. You must be absolutely

:17:33.:17:37.

thrilled, but you made a point just then that really it is EU law that

:17:38.:17:42.

has ridden to your rescue. Post Brexit, is there a real threat that

:17:43.:17:46.

perhaps the government could row back Mr session? Think there is, but

:17:47.:17:52.

the answer lies over there. Out of my depth, but I sincerely hope that

:17:53.:17:57.

Theresa May will do the right thing, something that should have been done

:17:58.:18:00.

a long time ago, and get this thing sorted out once and for all. There

:18:01.:18:03.

are people who are dying, people who have died who are not going to

:18:04.:18:07.

benefit from this. Actually I think the decent thing would be for those

:18:08.:18:10.

companies to now get into gear and look after the people that have

:18:11.:18:14.

gone. John, thank you very much indeed. An absolutely delighted John

:18:15.:18:18.

Walker but there is perhaps just a hint of a threat on the horizon as a

:18:19.:18:21.

result of Brexit, that this ruling today could be rowed back on.

:18:22.:18:27.

Something of an issue of concern for John and others in his position, but

:18:28.:18:31.

today a day of delight for him. Thank you very much Clive and John

:18:32.:18:37.

Walker. Let's carry on our, session with Jim, who has been looking at

:18:38.:18:43.

the fact that fewer than half of local authorities and housing

:18:44.:18:45.

associations that have got this cladding on that have failed fire

:18:46.:18:50.

safety tests have managed to remove the panel so far. You have been

:18:51.:18:53.

talking to residents in one particular tower block in north

:18:54.:18:57.

London. Yes, a resident in Islington. In her block, they have

:18:58.:19:01.

started to remove the cladding, big trucks are out there doing it. Two

:19:02.:19:06.

weeks ago, this president had a second daughter, so had a tiny

:19:07.:19:09.

little baby in the flat. We went round there to ask how safe she now

:19:10.:19:11.

feels in her own home. It does reassure me

:19:12.:19:14.

to a certain extent. They've put fire wardens

:19:15.:19:16.

in as well 24 hours. After the Grenfell Tower,

:19:17.:19:22.

I did not feel safe. I had lots of questions

:19:23.:19:24.

inside my head and I still don't. Because to me, there's still no

:19:25.:19:27.

clarity as to how safe we are. Considering that we only

:19:28.:19:41.

have one fire escape at the end of the corridor,

:19:42.:19:43.

so I'm at the opposite Having that secondary staircase,

:19:44.:19:45.

in case the corridor is blocked one way, would actually help those

:19:46.:19:51.

residents who live If everybody were to leave

:19:52.:19:54.

at the same time, it wouldn't work, us leaving and the fire brigade

:19:55.:20:10.

trying to make their way up, They would have to jump

:20:11.:20:13.

from the window and the third floor is the lowest floor,

:20:14.:20:20.

which is from here, What about the other issues around

:20:21.:20:24.

the sprinklers in particular? Would you feel more secure

:20:25.:20:37.

if sprinklers were fitted? It was a recommendation

:20:38.:20:39.

after the Lakanal House fire. What comes to me is that lady,

:20:40.:20:42.

for example, at the Grenfell Tower who flooded her flat and that's

:20:43.:20:49.

what saved her life. In such a tall building

:20:50.:20:53.

where the fire brigade do not have the equipment to go

:20:54.:21:00.

above the 12th floor, if I'm not mistaken,

:21:01.:21:02.

having sprinklers installed And it was here,

:21:03.:21:06.

it was a gas cooker. And it just caught fire

:21:07.:21:11.

and it burned everything My husband was very good,

:21:12.:21:13.

because it was a gas cooker, He burned his hands,

:21:14.:21:18.

burned his eyes, but he was able to contain the fire

:21:19.:21:24.

until the fire brigade came. That was scary enough,

:21:25.:21:31.

scary enough for my own daughter who had to call the fire brigade,

:21:32.:21:35.

who was shouting because her daddy was still in here and he got her

:21:36.:21:38.

to get out. And scary enough for me to be extra

:21:39.:21:41.

careful with everything. How much has having a new baby

:21:42.:21:44.

changed things in your head? I was thinking, so,

:21:45.:22:04.

having two children, having a 14-year-old

:22:05.:22:07.

and a two-week-old, I was on the internet

:22:08.:22:13.

and I was looking for fire I have fire extinguishers,

:22:14.:22:15.

but you know, gas masks. It's just made me much more scared,

:22:16.:22:18.

having such a little one, so vulnerable, it just scares

:22:19.:22:21.

the living daylights out of me. This is where we live,

:22:22.:22:30.

but try and make it safer by installing all these things that

:22:31.:22:42.

were recommended after I believe they'll be recommended

:22:43.:22:44.

again after the Grenfell Tower fire, once they've finished

:22:45.:22:49.

with their inquest. It's been recommended

:22:50.:22:51.

already, in 2009. Let's talk to the chair of a group

:22:52.:23:06.

of MPs that campaigns for fire safety. Conservative MP Sir David

:23:07.:23:13.

and Steve Kofi, Chief Executive Liverpool mutual homes, one of the

:23:14.:23:16.

landlords that has removed cladding from its property, and Ronnie King,

:23:17.:23:21.

former chief fire officer and Henri Secretary of the group of

:23:22.:23:25.

politicians who look at fire safety, he is neutral, impartial and

:23:26.:23:28.

independent. David Amis, why has it taken so long for local authorities

:23:29.:23:34.

and housing associations to remove the cladding that has failed fire

:23:35.:23:38.

safety tests? I have absolutely no idea. I think you did hear from

:23:39.:23:43.

someone earlier in the programme, suggesting that it is a complicated

:23:44.:23:47.

procedure, but as far as I am concerned, it is up to each local

:23:48.:23:52.

authority, housing association to act as quickly as they possibly can.

:23:53.:23:56.

Might I also say if local residents are concerned about non-action on

:23:57.:24:02.

this matter they should contact their own local MP as soon as

:24:03.:24:05.

possible. And what difference will that make? A great deal of

:24:06.:24:12.

difference. Most MPs come in to make a difference to people's lives, and

:24:13.:24:16.

I have no doubt that members of Parliament, if they are contacted by

:24:17.:24:20.

local residents, they will get onto the Minister and complain about the

:24:21.:24:24.

situation. Phone calls will be made and then I think there will be some

:24:25.:24:27.

pretty swift action but there may be different reasons for the delays,

:24:28.:24:32.

depending on the situation in various local authorities but

:24:33.:24:34.

Southend council has taken immediate local action on this matter and I am

:24:35.:24:37.

reassured by what they have done already. Steve Croft, since

:24:38.:24:44.

Grenfell, what work have you done on Europe properties? Thanks, Victoria.

:24:45.:24:49.

It is for weeks now, I am sitting 200 miles away but everything is

:24:50.:24:55.

vivid to everybody, and for housing associations, the first and foremost

:24:56.:24:59.

priority is the safety and security of their tenants. So when this test

:25:00.:25:04.

failed or we got notification that it had failed, we immediately took

:25:05.:25:09.

steps to put interim measures in place and begin removing the

:25:10.:25:14.

cladding. However, there is a total lack of clarity around the tests

:25:15.:25:19.

themselves. This particular block we have had sprinklers, has individual

:25:20.:25:24.

heat and smoke sensors in properties, has automatic door

:25:25.:25:27.

closes, has no gas in the flats, has all the safety measures you would

:25:28.:25:31.

think and is probably one of the safest places in the UK. However, it

:25:32.:25:40.

does have cladding with a retard and mineral core. It has failed the

:25:41.:25:48.

government's test, but it has passed a new test, so we need some real

:25:49.:25:54.

clarity on where we are with things. Said David Amess, that is a fair

:25:55.:26:00.

point, people like landlords like Steve Coffey did not know what tests

:26:01.:26:03.

were carried out on some of the properties that they own. This is a

:26:04.:26:08.

real issue and why our committee has been asking for 11 years for the

:26:09.:26:14.

building safety regulations... It is not about building regulations, it

:26:15.:26:17.

is about the specific tests that have been carried out since

:26:18.:26:20.

Grenfell. Someone in your government must know the details, the specifics

:26:21.:26:27.

of those tests? I am speaking in the debate in Parliament today, and I

:26:28.:26:32.

shall raise that very issue with the appropriate minister. Who is that,

:26:33.:26:37.

do you think they will now? Alec Sharma is the minister I think who

:26:38.:26:42.

will be responding to the debate. He has already meant -- Halep Sharma. I

:26:43.:26:47.

will ask him further details of why they does not seem to be clarity

:26:48.:26:52.

about the testing of the cladding. The Housing minister.

:26:53.:27:03.

The National fire chief counsel have undertaken to years of research into

:27:04.:27:16.

real-life fires that have occurred. The findings are pretty conclusive

:27:17.:27:21.

that in 100% of occasions in fires and flats, sprinklers have actually

:27:22.:27:26.

controlled or extinguished fires on every occasion. I think that's

:27:27.:27:33.

phenomenal, that really vindicates why automatic fire sprinklers should

:27:34.:27:38.

be used. And indeed that was the recommendation from the coroner

:27:39.:27:43.

after the Lakanal fire in south London in 2009. The coroner asked

:27:44.:27:47.

the Secretary of State to encourage those providers of social housing to

:27:48.:27:51.

consider installing automatic sprinkler protection. What the

:27:52.:27:57.

Secretary of State did was referred to a letter he had sent to the

:27:58.:28:03.

coroner at Southampton, by saying it is over to you. He didn't encourage,

:28:04.:28:09.

he said it is over to you to determine the appropriateness of

:28:10.:28:11.

automatic fire sprinklers. In other words, this is what the coroner is

:28:12.:28:15.

saying. He didn't encourage it for his said it is your decision. Thank

:28:16.:28:21.

you very much, gentlemen. Ronnie King, said David Amess, and a liver

:28:22.:28:25.

for Steve Coffey. We will watch the debate intensely in the Commons this

:28:26.:28:28.

afternoon. Still to come: We hear

:28:29.:28:34.

from the charity campaigning to have all prostitution related

:28:35.:28:37.

offences scrapped from sex It looks like Ariana Grande

:28:38.:28:39.

is to become an honorary citizen of Manchester after organising

:28:40.:28:42.

a concert to raise funds for victims Councillors are meeting right now,

:28:43.:28:45.

where they're expected 22 people died when suicide bomber

:28:46.:28:48.

Salman Abedi detonated a device at the end of Ariana Grande's

:28:49.:28:57.

concert on the 22nd May. Last month, Grande organised

:28:58.:29:00.

this concert for the # You are, you are,

:29:01.:29:02.

you are my everything... What better way to fight evil

:29:03.:29:16.

with evil than to fight evil # All the times that

:29:17.:29:21.

you rained on my parade # All the clubs that

:29:22.:29:35.

you get in using my name... Let's just do this

:29:36.:29:39.

little exercise in love. Tell them, I love you,

:29:40.:29:41.

look in their eyes. In an exclusive interview last week

:29:42.:29:52.

we spoke to Andrew Roussos, the father of eight-year-old

:29:53.:30:52.

Saffie Roussos, the youngest victim He told us what a hero

:30:53.:30:54.

he thought Arianne Grande was. The biggest part of why

:30:55.:30:59.

I wanted to meet her is to tell her what she

:31:00.:31:15.

meant to Saffie and, I wanted to tell her that I don't

:31:16.:31:20.

want her to blame herself, because she was very,

:31:21.:31:24.

you know, distressed at the time and blamed herself and a lot of

:31:25.:31:28.

different people said rotten things And, you know, beautiful,

:31:29.:31:31.

stunning young lady herself and when I met up with her, all she could say

:31:32.:31:45.

to me was, I'm sorry, and I said, You know, you made Saffie and all

:31:46.:31:49.

the children round the world so happy with what you do

:31:50.:31:53.

and you've done nothing wrong. And how did she respond

:31:54.:31:56.

to what you said to her? She appreciated me telling her

:31:57.:32:00.

that because obviously again, as a young lady, she must

:32:01.:32:08.

feel bad, you know, on what happened and everything else and I just

:32:09.:32:13.

wanted to tell her from me that I thanked her for making my daughter

:32:14.:32:16.

adore her and aspire to her. And I said to her,

:32:17.:32:27.

you know, many things It could have happened halfway

:32:28.:32:29.

through the concert, at And she got to see her,

:32:30.:32:38.

right to the end, and she's been looking so forward to it that I'm

:32:39.:32:43.

grateful that she got We can talk to Ann Marie

:32:44.:32:49.

McNally in Prestatyn who was at the concert

:32:50.:33:06.

with her daughter Lauren. She says her daughter is traumatised

:33:07.:33:08.

and rather than giving an honour to Arianne Grande perhaps

:33:09.:33:13.

the council should be recognising the work

:33:14.:33:15.

of emergency services. You're one of many people who are

:33:16.:33:27.

saying that council should officially... Clearly they have

:33:28.:33:32.

thank them a number of times, I have heard that, but he think of visual

:33:33.:33:35.

recognition is what they should be prioritising. Yes. There was a lot

:33:36.:33:41.

of people on that evening that ran in to help, taxi drivers, the

:33:42.:33:46.

homeless gentleman, I cannot remember his name, and his friend.

:33:47.:33:52.

These people were there on the ground trying to save people, trying

:33:53.:33:57.

to help people as much as possible, helping children to get home to

:33:58.:34:02.

parents, contacting. And the emergency services of course. They

:34:03.:34:08.

are human beings like ours. Yes, they are trained and skilled that

:34:09.:34:13.

they had a lot to be dealing with. Some would say that is their job.

:34:14.:34:21.

Well, we all have jobs, but we all went to that concert that night and

:34:22.:34:25.

never expected to come out and see what we saw and experience what we

:34:26.:34:32.

did. From my point of view, whether they are skilled and whether it is

:34:33.:34:37.

the job, they still dealt with it and dealt with that very

:34:38.:34:40.

professionally and I am sure they have come away from the situation as

:34:41.:34:48.

traumatised as the ones in there. Adam Harrison was also at the

:34:49.:34:51.

concert with his eight-year-old daughter Lily who was injured. Good

:34:52.:34:59.

morning. I know that you and Lily met Arianna Grande at the hospital

:35:00.:35:11.

where my she was being treated. You think it is right that the council

:35:12.:35:15.

are looking to make Arianne Grande an honorary citizen of Manchester.

:35:16.:35:21.

Yes, absolutely. You hear stories about meeting celebrities and you

:35:22.:35:25.

think it might be rehearsed but the amount of time she spent with us and

:35:26.:35:29.

everybody on the ward at the Children's Hospital... She made sure

:35:30.:35:36.

everybody was feeling well. My daughter was not sure if she wanted

:35:37.:35:40.

to go to the concept but within seconds of meeting her she was

:35:41.:35:46.

certain she wanted to go. Manchester is the proud city. To give her that

:35:47.:35:52.

confidence she is deserving of what is being discussed. You got a little

:35:53.:35:56.

bit of what Anne-Marie was saying. She thinks the council should be

:35:57.:36:01.

prioritising official recognition of the emergency services. Yeah,

:36:02.:36:08.

absolutely. That is their job, but there was no fallback for them not

:36:09.:36:16.

performing. I am having a lazy 20 minutes to speak to you but they

:36:17.:36:21.

cannot afford such a lapse in concentration. They had to be on

:36:22.:36:24.

form for the evening and the days following. The enthusiasm, keeping

:36:25.:36:34.

spirits high, these guys had given up their days off to come in and

:36:35.:36:39.

help us. I cannot speak highly enough of them. I will not have a

:36:40.:36:43.

bad word said about any of them. That is the point. Honorary citizen

:36:44.:36:51.

ship is being considered by councillors in Manchester, that does

:36:52.:36:55.

not mean something recognising the emergency services is not an option

:36:56.:36:58.

further down the line. No. Of course not. But I think they're definitely

:36:59.:37:06.

should be an acknowledgement to the emergency services and the taxi

:37:07.:37:10.

drivers and the other individuals who were around and about such as

:37:11.:37:17.

the guy who was homeless who helped, did everything they possibly could

:37:18.:37:21.

to try to help save lives and help in any way they could. Lily

:37:22.:37:28.

fractured her collar bone in the bombing and her mum Lauren was hit

:37:29.:37:33.

by shrapnel in the leg. How are they doing? They are both doing well.

:37:34.:37:39.

Lily is more physically able than me and Lauren. I have the ruptured

:37:40.:37:45.

ankle and Lauren has a flesh wound on her thigh so we are wobbling

:37:46.:37:50.

around and Lily fractured her collar bone and shrapnel went through her

:37:51.:37:54.

back and missed her spine and major organs and she is running around and

:37:55.:38:00.

giving us a heart attack. She is doing really well. How is Lauren?

:38:01.:38:12.

Lucy, I so sorry. She is OK. In an indirectly it has affected as

:38:13.:38:17.

psychologically. She has had to have some counselling but as days goes by

:38:18.:38:32.

it gets better. Thank you. Adam Harrison talking about his daughter

:38:33.:38:34.

Lily and Anne-Marie talking about her daughter Lucy.

:38:35.:38:42.

This programme has learnt that recording artists are being told not

:38:43.:38:44.

to say which pop stars have influenced any of their music

:38:45.:38:47.

in case they end up being sued for copyright infringement.

:38:48.:38:50.

It follows the high-profile copyright infringement case

:38:51.:38:51.

in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams,

:38:52.:38:54.

on their song Blurred Lines, had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It

:38:55.:38:58.

Tht case is going to appeal over the next few months.

:38:59.:39:02.

We bought you our reporter Chi Chi Izundu's full report earlier.

:39:03.:39:04.

MUSIC: Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke ft TI, Pharrell

:39:05.:39:08.

Blurred Lines was globally the biggest track of 2013,

:39:09.:39:15.

raking in more than ?12 million in profits from sales alone.

:39:16.:39:22.

But in 2015, a court in the States ruled that Pharrell Williams

:39:23.:39:25.

and Robin Thicke had infringed the copyright

:39:26.:39:28.

of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up and awarded his estate just over

:39:29.:39:31.

Marvin Gaye was cited as being the inspiration for Blurred Lines

:39:32.:39:39.

and Pharrell Williams even stated that he wanted to channel

:39:40.:39:41.

In the Blurred Lines case, Robin Thicke's interviews went

:39:42.:39:49.

well beyond saying that he was simply inspired

:39:50.:39:51.

What he said in his interviews was that he and Pharrell, or he

:39:52.:39:59.

directed Pharrell, to create a song

:40:00.:40:01.

just like Got To Give It Up, and that they tried to get the same

:40:02.:40:06.

rhythm and those types of things going in creating Blurred Lines.

:40:07.:40:09.

So it's much more than just inspiration.

:40:10.:40:10.

What you try and do with copyright is to work

:40:11.:40:13.

Musicologists like Peter Oxendale say the decision regardless is

:40:14.:40:18.

having huge implications on the industry.

:40:19.:40:21.

All of these companies are worried that if a track is

:40:22.:40:24.

referenced on another at all, a claim may be brought.

:40:25.:40:28.

So do you know of labels telling artists not to publicly

:40:29.:40:31.

Many of the companies I work with with ask the

:40:32.:40:42.

producers and the artists to declare all of the tracks that may have been

:40:43.:40:46.

used as inspiration for their new tracks.

:40:47.:40:49.

They send them to me well in advance of release, probably six

:40:50.:40:52.

Those are the behind the scenes arguments

:40:53.:41:00.

but what about an artist who writes, composers, produces

:41:01.:41:03.

We all listen to stuff and we all get ideas

:41:04.:41:07.

The trick of it, I think, is trying to turn those ideas into

:41:08.:41:14.

something new, rather than just repeat them or copy them.

:41:15.:41:17.

You only learn that by listening to it.

:41:18.:41:20.

So you are influenced simply by listening to music.

:41:21.:41:23.

Even if you don't like the music, it's going to

:41:24.:41:26.

In just over two months, Pharrell Williams,

:41:27.:41:34.

Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate will be back in court in the

:41:35.:41:38.

If Pharrell wins, it could mean a brand-new trial and the music

:41:39.:41:44.

industry has to go through this whole thing again.

:41:45.:41:48.

Whatever the verdict, it does seem that the

:41:49.:41:51.

industry will be extremely wary about copyright, as well as

:41:52.:41:54.

creativity, when it comes to releasing new music.

:41:55.:42:09.

Chi Chi Izundu, who was reporting, is here to tell us a bit more.

:42:10.:42:12.

So basically everyone's trying to avoid a copyright

:42:13.:42:14.

The word copyright and courts does not even come into it. They go into

:42:15.:42:21.

negotiations for about a year before court is even suggested. They are so

:42:22.:42:25.

desperate not to get there. Yes, it takes a lot of behind

:42:26.:42:28.

the scenes arguing and negotiating before even the word

:42:29.:42:31.

court is uttered. In 2014 - Sam Smith had a big

:42:32.:42:33.

hit with Stay With Me. Peaked at Number one

:42:34.:42:37.

in the Official Chart, sold more than four million copies,

:42:38.:42:39.

and won record of the But fans and lawyers for Tom Petty -

:42:40.:42:42.

who headlined the British Summer Time Festival in Hyde Park last

:42:43.:42:47.

weekend - noticed similarities between Sam's song and

:42:48.:42:51.

Tom's I Won't Back Down - That was Tom Petty's I won't

:42:52.:42:58.

Back Down, and here's # Stay with me.

:42:59.:43:27.

# This ain't love it clear to the. # Stay With Me now has Sam,

:43:28.:43:46.

his writing partner Jimmy Napes, Tom Petty and his writing partner

:43:47.:43:49.

Jeff Lynne as chief songwriters. In a statement on Tom's website

:43:50.:43:54.

he said no hard feelings towards Sam but "All my years of songwriting

:43:55.:43:58.

have shown me these Most times you catch it before it

:43:59.:44:01.

gets out the studio door Here's another huge track that

:44:02.:44:05.

quietly added songwriters to its credits within weeks

:44:06.:44:16.

of the Blurred Lines judgment. MUSIC: "Uptown Funk"

:44:17.:44:33.

by Bruno Mars and Mark Ronson. Uptown Funk, by Bruno Mars

:44:34.:44:38.

and Mark Ronson, topped the US Billboard chart for 14 weeks,

:44:39.:44:41.

originally had six songwriters. In April 2015, it picked up

:44:42.:44:46.

another five from 1970s They had some names. Money is going

:44:47.:45:15.

to change hands presumably. Exactly. They cut new deals to get new

:45:16.:45:20.

royalties and the distribution is made that way. And they stay out of

:45:21.:45:22.

court. We can speak now to Helienne

:45:23.:45:24.

Lindvall, songwriter and director of the British Academy

:45:25.:45:27.

of Songwriters, Composers And James Walsh, lead singer

:45:28.:45:33.

of the band Starsailor, which has sold more

:45:34.:45:41.

than three million albums. OK, are you afraid, James, to say

:45:42.:45:50.

who your inspirations are now, publicly? Not particularly, well, to

:45:51.:45:59.

be perfectly honest I think as long as you haven't thought of ripped

:46:00.:46:05.

someone off, as Gary Numan said in the VAT you just played, everyone is

:46:06.:46:12.

influenced by someone, is inspired by someone, and I think, like I say,

:46:13.:46:19.

as long as your track isn't like that, then it is quite acceptable to

:46:20.:46:25.

say yes, I listen to a lot of Ryan Adams, while listening to the --

:46:26.:46:30.

making the album, I listen to Spiritualised. Have to be aware.

:46:31.:46:39.

Ryan Adams will come out! Correct. The industry is nervous, is that

:46:40.:46:45.

fair? Well, I think probably what James is saying for Starsailor is a

:46:46.:46:50.

bit different than for some pop acts. When you are a songwriter for

:46:51.:46:57.

hire basically, usually when you work with an artist or a label or

:46:58.:47:00.

sometimes even when they send out lists of what they are looking for,

:47:01.:47:06.

they can only reference it according to what they already know, so you

:47:07.:47:09.

will get a reference saying we are looking for something that sounds

:47:10.:47:15.

may be like a mix of can't stop the feeling with Justin Timberlake meets

:47:16.:47:19.

either now Justin Bieber or something like that. Now, obviously,

:47:20.:47:25.

you don't want to send e-mails like that out because that might be

:47:26.:47:33.

brought up in court later. But I wanted to just address the different

:47:34.:47:37.

examples, because I do feel like the difference it is with headlines, it

:47:38.:47:46.

is not melodically or lyrically the same as the Marvin Gaye track. In my

:47:47.:47:52.

view and in the view of many other musicians, we're talking about

:47:53.:47:58.

production, arrangement. Even George Clinton, one of the most sampled

:47:59.:48:03.

artists in the world, who has influenced loads of people,

:48:04.:48:10.

including Bruno Mars, I'm sure, and Mark Ronson, he even said about the

:48:11.:48:17.

case that he couldn't see it, because he said you can't copyright

:48:18.:48:22.

a vibe. Well, in their depositions, they were talking about it is just

:48:23.:48:26.

the feeling, the vibe and that was enough of the US jurors. Yes, I

:48:27.:48:33.

think it is sad this case has come around, particularly when Motown,

:48:34.:48:37.

which Marvin Gaye came up through, all those artists shared a lot of

:48:38.:48:41.

influences and sounds, and the feel and the vibe of the songs. They are

:48:42.:48:47.

still amazing songs, they can still coexist together, but now all of a

:48:48.:48:53.

sudden this litigious nature that everyone is kind of suing each

:48:54.:48:57.

other, and it is a bit of a shame really. You are right, you say it is

:48:58.:49:03.

the arrangement, the production and so on, but Chi gave the example

:49:04.:49:12.

where it was quite similar so the new lot have added the old lot of

:49:13.:49:15.

songwriters onto the credit because they went yes, hands up, you got me

:49:16.:49:20.

there. With the Sam Smith case for example, he might have said he had

:49:21.:49:24.

never heard that song with Tom Petty, and in all honesty, I

:49:25.:49:27.

wouldn't be surprised if that is true. It is not the most original

:49:28.:49:33.

kind of... You know, there is only a limited amount of notes on the

:49:34.:49:38.

scale, and there are only some notes that work together more pleasantly

:49:39.:49:44.

than others. But, even so, actually I think somewhere along the line it

:49:45.:49:52.

would have been easier for somebody who heard the song, summary of the

:49:53.:49:55.

publishing company, producer, saying it was similar. As far as I know,

:49:56.:50:02.

there already is a rule in place where if a melody shares more than a

:50:03.:50:07.

certain number of notes... That is actually not correct. Is it not?!

:50:08.:50:17.

Urban myth. There is not a set number of notes, no formula. But

:50:18.:50:24.

that was settled amicably, and I think the issue now is, and

:50:25.:50:29.

obviously the Bruno Mars, the first on her that song like code here

:50:30.:50:33.

because I know the gap band and I thought wow, that is really, really

:50:34.:50:37.

similar. Now the issue is if you realise that you have something very

:50:38.:50:46.

similar or involuntarily you copy something, it could happen very

:50:47.:50:51.

easily. Then change it. You can either change it or you reach out to

:50:52.:50:57.

that songwriter and say we have got this in our song, can we arrange a

:50:58.:51:04.

split? But what happens if you do it after it has been released? Then the

:51:05.:51:08.

people who come and sue you, they can, as in the Marvin Gaye case,

:51:09.:51:11.

they can just go and claim as much as they want because the song is

:51:12.:51:16.

already out. Do you think the blurred lines case closed before it

:51:17.:51:20.

would happen frequently with melodies and lyrics but with the

:51:21.:51:25.

blurred lines case are we going to get travellers and drum tracks

:51:26.:51:31.

saying, the feel of this song... We will see what happens, because they

:51:32.:51:35.

are appealing against it in October. Thank you both for coming on the

:51:36.:51:36.

programme. A campaign is being launched

:51:37.:51:38.

to scrap all prostitution related offences from sex

:51:39.:51:40.

workers criminal records. NIA, a charity which

:51:41.:51:43.

aims to end violence and discrimination against women,

:51:44.:51:44.

says sex workers struggle to move on and get a new job

:51:45.:51:47.

because of their criminal record and the stigma associated

:51:48.:51:49.

with being a prostitute. One woman describes how her child's

:51:50.:51:51.

school refused to allow her to enter the playground

:51:52.:51:54.

because she was a "sex offender". We can speak now to Fiona Broadfoot,

:51:55.:52:02.

who's a former prostitute who says that criminal records

:52:03.:52:05.

hold her and women like her back, when they try and return

:52:06.:52:07.

to conventional employment. And to Heather Harvey

:52:08.:52:09.

from the charity NIA which has Hello, those of you. Hello. Fiona,

:52:10.:52:24.

tell us a little bit about what you want to do now and why previous

:52:25.:52:31.

convictions are holding you back? I was groomed and trafficked into

:52:32.:52:34.

prostitution at the tender age of 15. I was at risk of extreme sexual

:52:35.:52:42.

violence and abuse. None of the perpetrators whoever bought or sold

:52:43.:52:45.

me ever face any criminal convictions. I have a catalogue of

:52:46.:52:54.

convictions. Is with the holistic them here? It is an eight page

:52:55.:53:01.

double sided document. And it shows I have been convicted from one end

:53:02.:53:06.

of the country to the other. I have been given fines, Exeter Exeter.

:53:07.:53:16.

Dekhar conviction 1986, prostitute loitering ventilator six. I was 18

:53:17.:53:23.

years old firm. Prostitute loitering, and so it goes on. OK, so

:53:24.:53:28.

why should your convictions be wiped? What is different about

:53:29.:53:33.

prostitution, why not cannabis possession of a teenager, why should

:53:34.:53:37.

that not be wiped? Why isn't the same argument? I did not choose to

:53:38.:53:42.

be involved in prostitution, I was forced. I wasn't willingly stood out

:53:43.:53:47.

on the streets, I wasn't a criminal. That is a catalogue of my abuse

:53:48.:53:51.

actually. So I don't believe I should never have been criminalised.

:53:52.:53:58.

And actually, if now I were experiencing grooming and

:53:59.:54:00.

trafficking, I would have been treated as a victim of abuse, not as

:54:01.:54:05.

a perpetrator of a crime. Is that the same for all prostitutes,

:54:06.:54:10.

though? Because I have interviewed some who voluntarily choose to go

:54:11.:54:15.

out on the streets. To be quite honest, that isn't what I am here to

:54:16.:54:21.

debate. I believe that prostitution is a form of abuse. I have met a

:54:22.:54:26.

handful of women and have made a choice, in my experience the vast

:54:27.:54:34.

majority, even after exiting, they are still mentally ill, addicted to

:54:35.:54:43.

substances and the medication, physical health problems. Let me

:54:44.:54:50.

bring Heather in on this point. Understood. Why is this something

:54:51.:54:55.

the government should consider? I think the thing we are saying about

:54:56.:54:59.

prostitution specific offences is that prostitution is a whole other

:55:00.:55:02.

layer of stigma and discrimination attached to it and it is very

:55:03.:55:09.

gendered. So the disclosure, the principle is you are trying to

:55:10.:55:12.

prevent future harm. The women we are working with whenever the risk

:55:13.:55:16.

of harm to anybody asked, they were in most cases themselves victims.

:55:17.:55:22.

And the disclosure and barring service should be proportionate. The

:55:23.:55:25.

kind of things we see in the report that we discuss, we see women who

:55:26.:55:29.

are evicted from their housing, we see women who lose their

:55:30.:55:31.

relationships with their children and with their families when these

:55:32.:55:36.

things become disclosed. We see women who won't even apply for a job

:55:37.:55:40.

because they don't want to sit and have a two-hour discussion with

:55:41.:55:43.

senior male managers about a catalogue of abuse, which is what

:55:44.:55:45.

that is. So they won't even apply for a job. If you do apply, many

:55:46.:55:52.

times you are just turned away because you are perceived as having

:55:53.:55:57.

been a sex offender. But even if you got a chance, you have to have a

:55:58.:56:03.

discussion about two, three, five, ten years worth of prostitution,

:56:04.:56:10.

which is layered with that stigma. People who are involved in selling

:56:11.:56:16.

or been sold for sex should not become an ice and the first place

:56:17.:56:20.

but they should give to have their prostitution records wiped and not

:56:21.:56:23.

disclosed because it is disproportionate and has such

:56:24.:56:32.

far-reaching effects. You can see others with convictions in the past

:56:33.:56:36.

saying I want my drug dealing conviction being wiped, that is

:56:37.:56:38.

stopping me from starting afresh on getting a new job. There is a

:56:39.:56:45.

broader campaign around, no records but this is gender discriminatory,

:56:46.:56:51.

predominantly, so what would be arguing for that is we need to talk

:56:52.:56:57.

about, when somebody says prostitution, it goes into sex,

:56:58.:57:00.

sexual harassment, abuse, that is very different. We are talking about

:57:01.:57:06.

the most cases never wanted to be involved in it. Some of the women,

:57:07.:57:12.

like Fiona were saying, if you start at the age of 15, that is not

:57:13.:57:16.

prostitution, that is child abuse, grooming, that is the stuff we are

:57:17.:57:19.

making a big fuss about right now about rather than all of those

:57:20.:57:23.

areas. They should be treated as victims but they are treated as

:57:24.:57:26.

perpetrators, and it hampers you for your whole life, not just jobs but

:57:27.:57:30.

also your social interaction. Thank you both.

:57:31.:57:36.

Plymouth press I'm sure is good to ask you Fiona, before we pause, we

:57:37.:57:41.

haven't got much time, what jobs have you been blocked from getting

:57:42.:57:44.

because this has come up when they have chopped your -- checked your

:57:45.:57:50.

background? From applying to university places. Really? You mean

:57:51.:57:56.

a job or going on in university course? If you do a university

:57:57.:58:01.

degree in social work for example, you have to have a practical

:58:02.:58:05.

placement that goes alongside that. That would be the barrier. OK, I

:58:06.:58:10.

have to stop you there, but thank you very much.

:58:11.:58:11.

On the programme tomorrow - we'll bring you the latest

:58:12.:58:13.

on the Charlie Gard case, as his parents go to court again

:58:14.:58:25.

Thank you very much for your company today. Have a good day.

:58:26.:58:27.

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