12/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

It's four weeks now since the devastating fire which destroyed

Grenfell Tower block in Kensington and this programme has discovered

that fewer than half the local authority areas with tower blocks

wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests have started

Residents have also told us they're asking for new fire exits

But where is the money for that going to come from?

After Grenfell Tower did not feel safe. I had lots of questions and

mine head. I still do not. There is no clarity as to how safe we are.

More on that story to come, and in the next few

minutes we'll get reaction from residents and politicians.

I want to thank you for coming together and being so strong and

loving and unified. Councillors in Manchester

are meeting today to discuss giving Arianne Grande

honorary citizenship after she organised that concert

to raise funds for victims We'll hear from two

survivors of the attack Plus: Bands are song

writers are being told not to reveal which musicians

inspired their latest tracks for fear they'll be done

for copyright infringement. MUSIC: "Blurred Lines"

by Robin Thicke ..was found to have

copied this one... MUSIC: "Got To Give It

Up" by Marvin Gaye. Our full exclusive

story before 10am. Throughout the morning,

the latest breaking news And, as always, really

keen to hear from you. A little later in the programme

we'll hear from a former prostitute who's part of a campaign to ban

all prostitution related offences Campaigners say at the moment it's

too hard for sex workers to move on and find jobs if their records

show they've been Use #VictoriaLIVE, and if you text

you will be charged President Trump's eldest son has

said he didn't tell his father about a meeting last year

with a Russian lawyer who was apparently offering to help

the Trump election campaign. Yesterday Donald Trump Junior

released e-mails which showed he was keen to see what incriminating

material the lawyer was prepared to offer on Mr Trump's election

rival, Hillary Clinton. The e-mails feature an exchange

between Donald Trump Jr and the British publicist Rob

Goldstone. Early in the thread,

Goldstone says that he can broker a meeting with a Russian journalist,

who says he has damaging information about Hillary Clinton,

information which would be "useful In retrospect,

I probably would have For me this was opposition research,

so I wanted to hear it out. Nowhere was it apparent that this

is what the meeting was about. President Trump has been largely

silent on the issue, saying only that his son

was a high-quality person and that Did you tell your father

anything about this? I mean, I wouldn't have even

remembered it until you start It was literally a wasted 20

minutes, which was a shame. President Trump travels to France

today, anxious no doubt to escape the impression

that his is an administration Joanna Gosling is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary Police investigating

the Grenfell Tower fire say the task of identifying all the people

who died in the tragedy could take many months but they are determined

to "return those who died The head of the recovery team says

it's the worst incident Today marks four weeks

since the devastating fire, and tonight the community will come

together for a vigil to honour those who lost their lives,

as Sarah Smith reports. Four weeks of grief and shock,

of searching for loved ones Police estimate at least 80

people lost their lives. It is the job of the disaster victim

identification teams The man leading the job says that

it's the worst incident he has We are looking at a fingertip

search of all the flats, That would involve officers

on their hands and knees. I feel passionate about

getting those people back I understand how frustrating

it is for people outside of this environment to sit there

and wait and say, why can't Tonight, in the shadow

of Grenfell's blackened shell, a vigil will be held

to remember those who died. One of those who escaped the burning

tower is Antonio Roncolato, woken by his son who saw the flames

as he returned home. The smoke was very thick,

very horrible smell, obviously. I said there was no way

I could get out there. He would be led to

safety by firefighters. The questions over what happened

here started before the flames Similar cladding on more

than 200 other buildings has Labour has called for the process

to be speeded up, saying the government has been too

slow both in helping Grenfell residents and making sure

other blocks are safe. Later today there will be a debate

in Parliament over the enquiry to be Four weeks on and the real business

of finding answers feels as though And the Victoria Derbyshire

programme has found that fewer than half the local authorities

with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests

have started to remove the material. Following the Grenfell fire

the government said it planned to carry out fire safety tests

on 600 buildings across England. But despite every test on material

taken from those buildings failing, so far only one in three housing

associations and councils have Political parties must do more

to prepare candidates for the ruthless nature

of campaigning, according A parliamentary cross-party group

made the recommendation in a report documenting the scale of abuse

and intimidation of parliamentary candidates

during the general election. One MP suffered an anti-Semitic

attack and another was targeted by racist graffiti

and repeated death threats. The report will be debated

by MPs this afternoon. The National Audit Office has

criticised the government's handling of a new electronic tagging system

for offenders in England and Wales after the costly project

fell behind schedule. So far, the Ministry of Justice has

spent ?60 million on the system, which has fallen five years behind

schedule. The ministry's ambition

for a bespoke world-leading combined GPS and radio frequency

tag proved unachievable. And the programme was also

beset by problems in Lloyds Banking Group, which has more

than 20 million customers, is scrapping all fees and charges

for overdrafts that Last year, the consumer group

Which called for a crackdown on unarranged overdraft charges

after it found that they could be A charity says every household

in the UK should get a one-off rebate of ?285 on its energy bills,

because providers have been making excessive profits

at the expense of its customers. Citizens Advice says

the regulator Ofgem allowed companies to charge too much

and overestimated their costs. But Ofgem and energy providers

are disputing the claim, as our Personal Finance

Correspondent reports. A quarter of our bills is made up

of the cost of transporting electricity and gas,

a job done by the National Grid and various local

network companies who, because this is a monopoly,

have their charges vetted Citizens Advice estimates that

in the current eight years, which we are halfway through,

the network companies stand to make ?7.5 billion of excess profits,

hence the demand for a rebate of ?285 per household,

the money to be returned Ofgem have overestimated

the cost of investment For example, interest rates haven't

been as high as they expected. They've also allowed the companies

to earn money at the rate that a much riskier company would be

able to do and they have not been tough enough with the companies

on sharing the benefits of any Ofgem says the cost of getting our

gas and electricity to us has been going down and it's

already secured rebates. But it's launching a review today

of how it sets prices in future. The network companies reject

the calculations made by Citizens Advice and point to huge amounts

of money they need to invest. This programme has learned that

artists are being advised not to state publicly who they're

inspired by because of fears it could lead to lawsuits

for copyright infringement. It follows the high-profile case

in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams

had copied a Marvin Gaye song. This has led to fears that the music

industry could become Anthony on Facebook says, 80s music

is, was, the best overall. The proof of this is in the number of songs

that include samples or are based on 80s songs. Most of not all of these

will have obtained authorisation but there are many new sells that cause

they be the cause of old songs and tunes and infringe copyright. Does

this stay for new music? No. That is the cost of sampling. Due to the

greed of the music industry rather than the musicians. Even says yes,

copyright laws stifle creativity. We have a really interesting film about

that just before 9:30am. Let's get the latest sports

headlines with Leah, and it's all about Wimbledon today,

isn't it, Leah? Yes. Konta is one match away from

the final. She beat her Romanian opponent 2-1. It came with the

controversial match point where a scream from someone in the crowd

seemed to put them both of. Konta was watched by Virginia Wade who won

the tournament in the year of the Queen's Silver Jubilee. Konta will

take on Venus Williams on Thursday. Andy Murray will be looking to do

the same later than his quarterfinal on Centre Court. He takes on his

American opponent and he thinks that his opponent will be a challenging

opponent. His brother Jamie and Martina Hingis are through to the

last eight of the mixed doubles after winning in straight sets. The

match was stopped twice because of rain but they won in an hour and 11

minutes. These two are brilliant. They are brothers and wild cards in

the men's doubles and becoming one of the unlikely success stories of

the tournament. They are through to the quarterfinals but did not expect

to last two weeks because they only got their hotel for a week. They are

Liverpool fans and have sorted somewhere to stay, a hotel next to

Stamford Bridge. We will have more at 9:30am live from Wimbledon.

It was exactly four weeks ago that fire broke out at Grenfell Tower

in North Kensington, and this programme has discovered

that fewer than half the local authority areas with tower blocks

wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests have started

Today the Labour Party describes the fire safety

Meanwhile, a consultation period on the terms of reference

for the public inquiry into the fire has been extended by two weeks.

Many of those affected by the fire have expressed concern

that the scope of the inquiry, to be chaired by Sir

Martin Moore-Bick, will not be broad enough.

MPs will debate the inquiry in Parliament today.

We'll get reaction from various guests

in a moment but first here's how this programme has

covered the story over the last four weeks.

I've seen some things but today I can't even describe it.

There's mothers that have come out and lost

There are firefighters that have come out injured.

There was smoke everywhere, literally everywhere.

There was people downstairs, there was bits of

the cladding falling off the block that was on fire.

There's people who were jumping out the place.

There's a man who threw two of his children.

Honestly, it's all right, you don't have to say any more.

I looked behind me and I didn't see my brother.

I said, "My brother, my brother, where is he?"

Then I went outside, I called him, and I said, "Where are you?"

He said, "No one brought me outside."

Lives didn't need to be lost and they're lost and people

are looking for their children and it's so unfair.

Today we're back here in North Kensington

to catch up with some of those we first met on that first

Wednesday to bring you more remarkable stories of those who

escaped and to find out how people are doing.

Check it and forget your label of MP, human.

Then you will gain the respect and understanding of these

The housing minister, I'm told,

And his name is Alok Sharma and he has agreed to be with us

today after after pressure from residents.

So I know you have questions for him.

Why is it OK that there are thousands of empty homes

right in this area and these people are homeless?

Listen, don't give me any rubbish and think I'm going to

accept it because I'm not going to accept it.

Olu does not want temporary accommodation.

He wants good permanent accommodation.

Victoria, so, what we have said is that...

Can you please be specific as to what package you are offering

in terms of housing or rehousing the residents

And be specific about it, please, without the flowery words.

And can we just get him to speak, otherwise

Let the Minister speak so we hear what he's

Please let us know what your commitments are.

So, what we have committed to is anyone

whose home has been destroyed will be housed by next

Wednesday in good accommodation and then we will work with -

and in housing that is acceptable to them - so what we're not

offered a home, you don't like it, and you are still asked to go in.

Would you like to meet with the minister again

We will be meeting the Minister again.

I'll say the same thing I said when I met

These are our needs, this is how you can accommodate for us.

We do not need you to throw us in temporary accommodation.

We do not need you to put me and my family in

Meet our needs or just tell us the truth

If you can't meet the requirements, it's simple.

If you can't do it, tell us the truth.

Just this morning police Everest footage of officers from the victim

identification group entering Grenfell Tower.

Commander Stuart Cundy, the officer leading the investigation has said

police are determined to do all we can to return those who died to

their families as soon as we can. This is a statement released four

weeks on from the terrible tragedy. Met police Sergeant Alastair

Hutchinson is the officer leading on identifying victims.

We believe in dignity in death, repatriating family members as soon

as we can and adhering to an identification process that will

ensure that the right person gets brought back to their loved ones.

We can speak now to Moyra Samuels from the Justice for Grenfell group,

Pilgrim Tucker, a community organiser, who supported

Grenfell Tower residents' campaign, the Grenfell Action Group,

Melanie Onn, Labour's spokesperson on housing, and Lucy Masoud,

a Chelsea firefighter and union official.

Moira, let me ask you, your assessment, if you like, of where

the survivors and residents are four weeks on? I think, as people have

indicated, there are still a lot of disorganisation. We have only had 18

families that have been rehoused. You know, a survivor I spoke to said

they had been made an offer that was withdrawn. I think people still feel

the system is still a little bit disjointed, and their needs are not

really being met. Is that fair, Pilgrim? You were nodding in

agreement. I would echo that completely but I would say not a

little bit, I would say there are still a total failure continuing.

Have there been no improvements? Very minor improvements, but these

residents and survivors are daily being faced with an onslaught of

queues, as Joe mentioned earlier in the film, terrible decisions they

have to make, chopping and changing with a public enquiry. And very,

very difficult problems with their housing, and still actually

incompetence, and an inability of whoever is in authority to put

themselves in the shoes of these people and actually approached them

in a caring manner, which will help them. And use the resources that the

council have. This is the wealthiest council in the whole of the UK, and

they can afford to house these people properly and securely. You

mean by using some of the reserves that the council have the buy new

properties? Yes. 300 million reserve, they have 1400 empty

properties in Kensington and Chelsea. Requisitioning. Do what you

need to do, buy them. You can't have a month after a fire of this nature

with only 18 families have been rehoused. As I understand it, offers

of accommodation have been made to 158 families, 18 have accepted, and

we have reported on this programme some of the reasons why others have

turned it down, because they are worried about getting something

permanent within the borough if they have been offered something

temporary outside, or it is just inappropriate, unsuitable, not big

enough, or far away. Let me ask you, Melanie, Labour's spokesman on

housing, you have this debate in the Commons today, what is the point of

it? It is about putting pressure on the government to be as open and

transparent as possible about the progress they are making if there

has been any, because without doing that the residents are not going to

start to see any of the benefits that the government really should be

able to offer. We are hoping that there will be answers around the

status of the tower blocks around the rest of the country because we

know that only 500 have been tested. The focus of the government has been

on those tower blocks that have the same kind of cladding is the

Grenfell Tower, but there are much bigger questions. If there were to

be a fire and another block somewhere in the country, what with

the response be? Would it be the same situation all over again,

because it is really important that we lose that -- learn the lessons of

Grenfell and quickly. We have discovered that the tower blocks

that have failed, only half of the blocks have yet had those panels

removed. Do you think it could be speeded up? We are saying that a lot

of the information coming from government has been so unclear, and

that is reflected in the comments of residents from Grenfell. We know

that Salford council for examples courted its deep cladding of its

tower blocks because of information coming from government about safety

has not been clear. Is it safer to keep the cladding on or not? --

Kensington and Chelsea council has a new leader. It is Elizabeth

Campbell, and she was asked on Radio 4 if she had ever been inside

Grenfell Tower. This is what she said. Had you ever been inside? I am

going before. Before the fire? I haven't been inside before the fire?

Had you ever been inside the traffic tower? Not trailer, not Grenfell,

but I have been inside many other council houses. But the high-rise

ones, have you ever been inside any of them, before the Grenfell Tower,

haven't you ever been up into any of those high-rise council blocks? I

had not, but I am certainly doing that now. You are shaking your head.

It is a person so disconnected. They are completely disconnected from the

community. I would go so far as to say they actually have disdain for

the North Kensington community. This new leader, the first thing she did

was apologise for the failings of the council to the survivors. Too

little, too late, sorry, and she has been implicated in a lot of the cuts

we have seen across the borough. We have been talking about the cuts to

services. Housing being one of them. And she is implicated in them. How

do you react, Pilgrim? Again, I think Moyra is correct in everything

she has just said. I think the new council leader has an opportunity

here, and I think if she wants to last in her political career, she

needs to take drastic action, and they do have the resources to help

this situation, and they can rehoused these people, and that

would be one way of genuinely showing that she was sorry. So

action, not just words. Lucy, hello, Chelsea firefighter and union

official. In terms of the firefighters and the magnificent

efforts they tried to make that night, where are we now, in terms of

when you look back, how things could have been done differently? Firstly

I would like to pay tribute to my firefighters who fought tirelessly

on that day, the brave men and women but also the control workers who

took those calls from those victims, and in many cases heard people

perish on the end of the phone. I would like to pay tribute to them. I

think everyone involved, including all the emergency services, dealt

with the incident amazingly, but I do feel that we didn't have the

right resources. Of course it is far too early to speculate. My union are

doing the own investigation into the fire. Certainly we feel that the

cuts that have affected us over the last three years, we are talking

about ?130 million to London Fire emergency and rescue services by the

former mayor, now Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, the closure of ten

fire station, 29 fire stations -- fire engines taken off-line, the

removal of 20,000 firefighters, we think that had an effect. You also

didn't have an aerial platform that went high enough, you had one that

went up to 32 metres, the tower was 70. You are right, the highest

ladder in London is 32 metres, the higher slider in the UK is in

Surrey, 42 metres, we have to ask for them to send their ladder, it

took hours for it to get us. Again it is too early to speculate what

difference that would have made, but we know for instance there is a fire

engine or a fire station in Mumbai that has a ladder that goes up to 90

metres. Why does the UK, the 13th richest country in the world, not

have ladders go up to 90 metres, where they are available? Why do you

think? I think our former mayor spent far too much money, ?320,000

on illegal water cannons that were useless and not used. Did we used to

have big aerial platforms? The money has never been put in. So we have

never had one is over 42? Absolutely not, and they have been available to

sometimes, there are over 100 ladders that reach up to 90 metres,

are -- our highest ladder in London goes up to 32 metres. Jenny tweets

this, I cannot believe the complete disregard for the victims of

Grenfell. E-mail from Douglas, it is a time to start asking why flammable

material is allowed to be manufactured from building purposes

at all. Roses as your programme has done more than any other to give

voices to the people of Grenfell Tower, and so it goes on. Thank you

all of you, we will watch the debate very carefully this afternoon in the

Commons. Thank you for coming along. It is half past nine. Time for the

latest news headlines with Joanna. Here's Joanna Gosling

in the BBC Newsroom President Trump's eldest son has

said he didn't tell his father about a meeting last year

with a Russian lawyer who was apparently offering to help

the Trump election campaign. Yesterday Donald Trump Junior

released e-mails which showed he was keen to see what incriminating

material the lawyer was prepared to offer on Mr Trump's election

rival, Hillary Clinton. Police investigating

the Grenfell Tower fire say the task of identifying all the people

who died in the tragedy could take many months but they are determined

to "return those who died The head of the recovery team says

it's the worst incident Today marks four weeks

since the devastating fire, and tonight the community will come

together for a vigil to honour those And the Victoria Derbyshire

programme has found that fewer than half the local authorities

with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests

have started to remove the material. Following the Grenfell fire

the government said it planned to carry out fire safety tests

on 600 buildings across England. But despite every test on material

taken from those buildings failing, so far only one in three housing

associations and councils have That's a summary of

the latest BBC News. Johanna Konta is the semi-finals and

Andy Murray is hoping to make it this afternoon. Our reporter is

there. It is freezing. We are causing

chaos. We wanted to show you the Royal Box. This is where might the

great and the good come. They have to make it really tidy and clean.

They have left behind a little bit of equipment. Maybe I will get to

work with that later. It is freezing. I am sure that it should

warm up. It has been raining during the night. The forecast is good. We

are going to keep our fingers crossed. It is chilly but I am

joined by someone you might recognise. Serena Williams' coach.

Even though your face. We see you in the box when Serena is playing and

you are willing heart on, maybe sometimes showed encouragement.

Sometimes. Sometimes cool and not seeing anything. I've tried to send

to hire the right vibe. You have a little bit of downtime, not that

much because the rear is still keeping fit and playing. She is of

having a baby, due in a couple of months. You have taken the

opportunity to write your life story and how you came to be coached to

one of the greatest athletes of all time. Yes. I wrote a book because my

editor proposed me to do it, an autobiography. I felt I was too

young but she filed I was old enough. It is explaining how I was a

very shy kid, very sick, very bad at school, my future looked terrible

and at a certain point when I was 11, 12, 13, I took decisions to

change my life and maybe in the future have the chance to live the

life I was dreaming of and it happened because I made those

changes. My editor vertebra is undressing for people to understand

how you can change your life to have a chance to live your dreams. That

is what I did. I started at 26 my academy and it is the biggest

academy of Europe. I was not a professional tennis player and I was

able to work with professional tennis players, great players, and

finally Serena, who became the greatest of all time. I cannot be

lucky to be able to live that life. It is also the consequence of a few

decisions. That is the story of the book. It is exciting even for people

who are not into tennis because it is also about life. It is also about

coaching. We see players compete, we lose all this emotion. People do not

know what is done behind-the-scenes. That is what I explain. Let me make

use of your coaching experience and ask what Johanna Konta should be

focusing on. The first British woman through to a semifinal in 39 years.

I understand why you keep your eyes on that. It is going to be difficult

match for her because she is facing Venus is the best the four players

still in the draw on grass. She has been so successful in the last 15,

20 years. Five trophies here and the mike other finals. She played the

final of the first Grand Slam of the season. Johanna Konta will have to

beat her. I am so impressed by what she has done so far. So focused, so

good on the big points. Whenever she had to defend her serve she has been

doing incredibly well. She has been really impressive. She has to be

tired physically and mentally. So many tough fights. When you have to

stay into the match for two and a half hours and you cannot afford to

lose your server, you defend points, you play two tie-breaks, she left a

lot of mental strength on all of those fights she had to face. I hope

she will be able to keep the same level of intensity for every point

because she will have to. How battle is mental. Andy Murray's battle is

more physical and with himself, managing an injury. That is true. It

is so difficult to play being injured. It is sad because he

finally comes back to a good level just before Wimbledon at the right

time after making an enormous effort to become world number one in the

world, physical and mental. I was very impressed with what he did last

year. When you make such an effort you pay the price afterwards that is

what happened at the start of the season, he was exhausted mentally.

He reached his ultimate goal. When you do so you need time to be said.

It is a difficult period. He is back and he has a problem with his hip.

He has been managing that not so bad. When you reach this stage you

have to be 100%. How is Serena? When can we see her back? She wants to be

back so bad. She is seven months pregnant. She is so happy about

becoming a mother but she misses matches. She is unable to compete

and she is wanting other bee book on beating. When she announced she was

pregnant she said I am pregnant but I am not done with tennis. Please

wait for me. I will be back soon. I will be waiting for her. She wants

to come back as early as she can. We do not know how long it will take

for her body to recover but you will see her again definitely. Thank you

for joining us. Serena taking a very unusual approach to maternity leave.

I thought you were supposed to sit on your silver and eat somebody's

and chocolate. She does, but she plays tennis every day. That is

unusual. It is good to know that the emergency alarm is working

perfectly! Unemployment fell by 64,000 down to 1.49 million in the

three months to me. Average earnings increased by 1.8% in the year to

May, down by 0.3% on the previous month, average earnings increasing

across the whole year by 1.8% but that is down by 0.3% on the previous

month. A gay man fighting to win his

husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy in a heterosexual

relationship has told this programme he felt the law

was "totally discriminatory". Former cavalry officer John Walker,

who's 65, will find out the result of his battle at the UK's highest

court in the next few minutes. He wants to ensure that

if he died first, his husband, who is in his 50s, will be

adequately provided for. Speaking to me before the ruling,

he said the decision would be "the end of the legal road" for him

after an 11 year fight. I joined a company where I had to

join the pension fund, it was contributed a, I paid and 423 years

the same as other colleagues. The fact I had a civil partnership and

married a same-sex partner, my partner will get no disposal pension

rights whereas if I was divorced, to divorce my partner and marry a woman

she would get full rights, thousands of pounds. It is total

discrimination. In cash terms, if you died and had the wife, how much

would she get and how much would your husband get? She would get

somewhere between ?45,000 and ?50,000 a year and my husband would

get somewhere between ?500 in ?1000 a year. Explain the law. We have

human rights law and equality law and we have equal marriage but we

only have equal married in name because there is this loophole in

the quality legislation which means that people in same-sex marriages

cannot have the same pension rights as people in heterosexual marriages.

It is civil partnerships as well. Correct. In the past this has gone

against you. If things go your way today what are the implications for

others? It means that thousands of loving couples all over the UK can

have equal access to pension arrangements and equal marriage

looks more like equal marriage and we can properly claim to be an equal

and human rights compliant society so we hope that is what happens and

even if we do not win the case the couple -- government can do the

right thing. You have been fighting this case for 11 years. What has

that been like? Stressful. But life goes on. The end of the legal road

today. 11.5 years. It is a big day. How have you been affected in terms

of your life as a couple? How has this impacted on you both? We have

tried not to let it impact too much. We have had huge support from Martha

and her colleagues, from many friends and people from our company.

It is stressful because I am a reasonably organised person, I'd

like to plan things and have things planned, it is likely statistically

that I will predeceased my husband, I am older than him, so I would like

to have everything tied up. Maybe today will be able to do that, maybe

not. Thank you. We are expecting the judgment any moment. As soon as we

hear it we will bring it to you live.

This programme has learned that artists are being advised not

to state publicly who they're inspired by on their new music

because of fears it could lead to lawsuits

It follows the high-profile case in which US jurors ruled that

Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams, on their track Blurred Lines,

had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up.

An appeal against that ruling is due to be heard over

Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu has been looking at claims that that

judgement has left the music industry "nervous" and

MUSIC: Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke ft TI, Pharrell

This is the story of two songs

and one court judgment and its impact

I think it was decided in a way that has got everybody feeling a

I hate all this, "Oh, I'm completely original," you know, "I've

Because some are now asking whether they should stop even

talking about artists who inspire them.

So do you know of labels telling artists not to publicly

So, what is the difference, if any, between being inspired by a

Got To Give It Up by Marvin Gaye was released in

1977 and reached number seven in the UK charts and number one

Blurred Lines was globally the biggest track of 2013,

raking in more than ?12 million in profits from sales alone.

In 2015 Pharrell Williams and Robin Thicke

were told their track Blurred Lines breached copyright.

Marvin Gaye's estate was awarded just over

?4 million and 50% interest in future royalties.

Pharrell Williams told the court that Marvin Gaye's music was the

soundtrack of his youth and that he was channelling that 70s feeling.

Note the use of the word feeling in this deposition video

When you were creating Blurred Lines, were you

trying to pretend that you were Marvin Gaye?

But as I look back I feel that feeling when I went in the

studio to work with Robin I sought out a bluegrassy chord structure

that I felt like could be interesting on a soulful voice.

It felt like Marvin Gaye going into Nashville making a groove.

What you try and do with copyright is work

Peter Oxendale is one of a handful of

forensic musicologists in the world and he says the judgment

was about the feel or the groove of the song,

not copying directly, and it's had huge implications.

So it's not just a group of notes or a lyric that's

It's just, maybe I was inspired by your watch, basically?

Simply nothing's really changed but everyone's concerned that

inspiration can be a catalyst for infringement.

And so all of these companies are worried that if a

track is referenced on another at all that there may be a claim being

brought, and what they are really fearful of is a claim being brought

Over in California, Richard Busch, the

Gayes' family lawyer, says that's not true.

That is the story that the Pharrell and Robin Thicke camp have

been telling to try to drum up support for this the-sky-is-falling,

no-one's-going-to-be-able-to-create- music,

you'll-be-sued-for-whistling-in-pub- lic kind of argument

If anyone was actually aware of the evidence and the facts

that were presented, you would know that it

This inspiration, this feeling that they

try to say was the basis for the decision.

In fact, I believe we had 15 different compositional elements

that we identified as being substantially similar between

Well, maybe Pharrell's camp are winning in the courts of public

opinion, because questions and doubts

are still being raised in the

industry, as Ed Sheeran's lawyer Simon Dixon can confirm.

It wouldn't have been decided the same

way over here, so as a result I think everybody felt that they knew

what the law was, I felt they knew what the parameters were.

And when you know what the laws are and the

This injects an element of grey into the picture.

So as a result people are less certain now about what they

can and can't do, and as a result, as I say, everybody feels

So those are the behind-the-scenes arguments but what

about the artists who write, compose, produce

We're all inspired by something, there's influence in everything.

But I just think the responsibility of

the songwriter is always to push forward, which always involves

nodding back, which is important too.

But I think if you're feeling self-conscious about that I think

there's another battle going on there...

There is no such thing as a completely original composition.

We learn music by practising, and what

We practise patterns, we practise scales.

We're reinterpreting these formulas over

You know, if I play a song that goes doo-doo doo-doo, I'm

playing doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo.

The art of music-making is the reinterpretation

We all listen to stuff and we all get ideas

The trick of it, I think, is trying to turn those ideas into

something new, rather than just repeat them or copy them.

I mean, I know how to write songs because I heard one, so

I know what a verse is and a chorus is and a break and all those things.

You only learn that by listening to it.

So you are influenced simply by listening to music.

Even if you don't like the music, it's going to

And according to experts, just to be on

the safe side, labels are cautiously making sure new music from their

artists doesn't skirt too closely to work from the past.

The process is known as forensically checking music.

Many of the companies that I work with ask the producers and the

artists to declare all of the tracks that may have been used as

They send them to me well in advance of release, probably six months

producers and composers, from Hans Zimmer to R Kelly, signed

a court document backing Blurred Lines

was allowed to stand it is very dangerous to the music community

and is certain to stifle creativity and impede the creative process.

But the battle lines were drawn when musicologists

and acts behind hits like Could It Be I'm Falling In

Love, along with other businesses, backed the Marvin Gaye family

calling the motion hypothetical, because the decision was based on

disputed evidence about protectable aspects

I think it's a great shame because, speaking personally, I've

been influenced by Motown, rock and roll, punk,

all this stuff, 90s music, dance music, and if I am a

good musician, I hope I am, or musicologist,

because of all these influences taken on board, I'm proud

of these influences and it's a great shame that artists are actually

disinclined to reveal their inspirations.

In the Blurred Lines case, Robin Thicke's interviews went

well beyond saying that he was simply inspired

What he said in his interviews was that he and Pharrell, or he

directed Pharrell, to create a song

just like Got To Give It Up, and that they tried to get the same

rhythm and those types of things going in

So it's much more than just inspiration.

In just over two months, Pharrell Williams,

Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate will be back in court in the

If Pharrell wins, it could mean a brand-new trial and the music

industry has to go through this whole thing again.

Whatever the verdict, it does seem that the

industry will be extremely wary about copyright, as well as

creativity, when it comes to releasing new music.

Later in the programme, we'll be getting reaction

She organised the concert that raised ?2 million

for victims of the terror attack in Manchester, but should singer

Ariana Grande be given honorary citizenship of the city?

We'll talk to two survivors with very different opinions.

Another little bit of history was made at Wimbledon yesterday

when Johanna Konta became Britain's first female Wimbledon semi-finalist

since Virginia Wade almost 40 years ago in 1978.

It's been 39 years since a British woman can say, I'm a

She's done it in front of the last woman to do it, Virginia Wade.

It raises the very tantalising prospect that a Brit

could win both the women's and men's title at

Not to forget a potential third title for Andy's brother

Jamie Murray who is progressing well in the mixed doubles.

Johanna Konta's rise to the top of British tennis has been

Last year she didn't get past the second round of Wimbledon.

So for the next few minutes, here's everything you need

In 2009, she was ranked 469 in the world.

Two years ago in 2015, she was ranked 126 in the world,

last year she was ranked 19th, and now she's officially ranked

Though that will change after Wimbledon.

In the past 12 months she's won titles in Los

She was born to Hungarian parents in Sydney, Australia,

and lived there till the age of 14 when she move to the UK,

she officially took British citizenship and began playing

I've always, ever since I moved here, I've spent

I really, essentially, grew into the tennis

player but also, more importantly, the person I am today here.

It was never a case of me feeling more and more British.

She was introduced to tennis at the age of eight and soon became

fiercely competitive. She has described herself as highly strung

in the past, and acknowledges that she once reduce the assisted the

tears during a game of Monopoly. The family are not particularly sporty,

her dad runs hotels and her mum is a dentist but they have always

supported her in her career. One of her grandfathers,

Tamas Kertesz, played twice for Hungary in the 1950s

and went on to coach Ghana. She's coached by Wim Fissette,

who has previously helped former world No 1s Victoria Azarenka

and Kim Clijsters. Her boyfriend Jackson Wade

has been cheering her They've been dating since

she won the Miami Open - thought she's fiercely private

about her private life. She lists movies, reading

and shopping among things she likes to do in her spare time

She's also a huge fan of Van Morrison and U2, saying she's

remortage her house for a chance Last year she went to see

Taylor Swift in Hyde Park She keeps a relatively low profile

and is fairly unshowy compared to other tennis stars -

admitting she's not too She has however been able

to ditch her old Peugeot hatchback for a fancy red Jaguar,

given to her by her sponsor. You've no doubt heard plenty

about Johanna Konta baking muffins every day after Wimbledon -

she's a bit of a foodie overall and says she's "always hungry" -

but never deprives herself of anything, including

pizza and gelato. A typical day's diet

would be - for breakfast - and a slice of rye toast

with ham....then for lunch - tuna salad, and a bowl of steamed

brown rice...and for dinner - pizza with ham and mushrooms

and a salad....with snacks of bananas and blueberry

and raspberry chia pudding. Justin Sherring is owner and head

coach at Weybridge Tennis Academy and coached Johanna Konta

in her teens What was she like then? Very much

like you see her now, very bubbly, very enthusiastic, very passionate

and very focused. Did she say to you back then I want to win Wimbledon? I

don't think she did, but if she did she might have said it with a big

tongue in her cheek, but as we have seen over the last couple of years,

she means business, and she meant business back on the day when she

was training very hard for this moment. Did you see potential in her

the winning a grand slam title? I saw potential as someone who could

play at a very high level. I didn't know whether that level was grand

slam semifinalist or Wimbledon winner potentially. But I knew that

she could play at a very high level. She had some very special. Do you

think she will win at this time, don't say you hope she is. The

title. I think she can win the title, let's just say, she is

hitting the ball well enough and she plays like she has I think she can

do it, yes. Thank you rematch, Justin. The latest news and sport on

the way, before that all of the weather forward modern and the rest

of the UK. Much improved conditions across the

country after all the cloud and outbreaks of heavy rain across the

south-east. Conditions will continue to improve and it becomes largely

dry with plenty in the way of sunshine developing as we head to

the afternoon, that rain clearing the Kent and Sussex coast, allowing

the sunshine through the Southern counties, and across the country

with light winds, feeling quite pleasant in the sunshine,

temperatures widely reaching the high teens and the low 20s. So for

one wouldn't conditions will be fine proved why the afternoon commute can

swap the umbrella for some sunscreen as we are expecting some sunshine,

dry conditions and temperatures reaching up to 22. We continue with

fine weather as we head into the evening, high there with us, long

clear spells overnight and turning quite chilly, especially for some

sheltered rural glens. Tomorrow, Kauto Star, sunshine around but also

scattered showers developing, but the bulk of those showers for

Northern Ireland and north-western parts of Scotland. Temperatures

still reaching the high teens and low 20s. That is your forecast.

Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

The community of the Grenfell Tower fire have said they are struggling.

I had not been inside before the fire. I have been inside many other

council houses. The council are completely disconnected from the

community. They have disdain for the north -- north Kensington community.

Plus this programme has discovered that fewer than half the local

authority areas with tower blocks that have failed safety tests have

I have lots of questions in my head and I still do not. There is still

no clarity as to how safe we are. She helped raise ?2 million for the

victims of the fire but Bush -- of the terror attack in Manchester but

should she be made an honorary citizen of the city? Artists are

being encouraged not to reveal who has inspired them for fear that they

will be done with copyright infringement. This index grain to

the picture so people are less certain about what they can and

cannot do. We will talk to the lead singer of Star sailor about how this

issue affects his work. John Walker, we heard from him in

the last half hour, has won back his Supreme Court battle to secure his

husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy. The ex-cavalry

officer, 65, has won back his 11 year long legal battle to secure his

husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy. We can talk to our

legal correspondent at the Supreme Court. Incredible news for John

Walker. Fill us in. Incredible news for John Walker and his spouse but

also great news for spouses in same-sex marriages and civil

partners because this was about... John Walker had an issue... He had

worked for a company for 23 years, starting around 1980 and ending in

2003, and at the time he saw... Civil partnerships were not lawful

and neither were same-sex partnerships. Same-sex marriages

became lawful in 2005 and shortly after he and his partner entered the

civil partnership and are married. He wanted his partner to have the

security of knowing that when Mr Walker died his spouse would be

entitled to the full pension. They relied on an exemption that said the

company could discount the years of service of paying into the pension

that predated the coming into force of civil partnerships so anything

before December 2005 needing ended effectively be discounted. That made

a massive difference to his partner and would've meant that upon Mr

Walker's death the pension his partner would of got would have been

around ?1000 as opposed to ?46,000. A massive difference. The Supreme

Court has ruled that that cuts out in the Equality Act, that exemption

that allows those benefits that accrued before 2005 to be

disregarded, that contravenes ideas in breach of EU law and that cutout,

that exemption, as to be death applied. In all cases.

That will allow his partner to get the full pension of ?46,000 per

annum. This has huge implications because the judge is not limited to

this case, this applies generally to same-sex marriages and civil

partnerships across the board, and that is huge. Thank you. As soon as

John Walker comes out of the building, we will hopefully talk to

him live about this news which she has been fighting force for 11

years, he has been -- he was telling us earlier.

Here's Joanna Gosling in the BBC Newsroom

Donald Trump Junior has said he didn't tell his father

about a meeting he had with a Russian lawyer during last

year's US election campaign because there was nothing to tell.

Yesterday he released emails which showed he was keen to see

what incriminating material the lawyer was prepared

to offer on his father's rival, Hillary Clinton.

Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say the task

of identifying all the people who died in the tragedy could take

many months but they are determined to "return those who died

The head of the recovery team says it's the worst incident

Today marks four weeks since the devastating fire,

and tonight the community will come together for a vigil to honour those

And the Victoria Derbyshire programme has found that fewer

than half the local authorities with tower blocks wrapped in panels

that have failed fire safety tests have started to remove the material.

Following the Grenfell fire the government said it planned

to carry out fire safety tests on 600 buildings across England.

But despite every test on material taken from those buildings failing,

so far only one in three housing associations and councils have

Unemployment fell in the three months to May,

The jobless rate has dropped to lows last seen in 1975 at 4.5%.

But the data also show that pay is not keeping up with price rises,

meaning households are feeling the strain of rising prices

That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

On the pension news we have just brought to you, the ruling from the

Supreme Court, emails to say I have been accept that occupational

pensions which will not give my survival is pension to my common-law

partner who I have lived with for over eight years, unless I marry

her. I do not want to be forced to marry. These pension trustees are a

law to themselves to drive to cut costs. Just marry her! Life is

short. Get in touch. It hasn't happened for 39 years

but Johanna Konta has She's the latest British woman

to reach the semi-finals of Wimbledon after a thrilling 2-1

win on Centre Court last night. It's hard to think that

Johanna Konta had only won one match Now, after a nerve shredding victory

against Simona Halep, I've always believed in my own

ability and I've always dreamt big. But I don't give myself

too much time to dream As is often the British

way on Centre Court, She lost the first set

on a tie-break against the second seed, not playing badly,

she just needed to find Relying on a powerful serve

and a booming backhand seemed Konta credits much of her rise up

the rankings to the work on the mental side of the game

and under this pressure you could Outside they tried to make

themselves heard through it. The first British woman

into the semi final since Konta winning over new fans

and a few older ones as well. Today all eyes will be on defending

champ Andy Murray and his semi-final against American big-server Sam

Querrey. In practise yesterday,

he still looked like he was He's aiming for an eighth

semi-final, and his match against the number 24 seed gets

underway around 1pm. And Querrey has embraced

his underdog billing. He is the defending champion, number

one in the world, you just have to go out and play your best and hope

things go your way. He is going to be the favourite no matter who he

plays. I will have to play extremely well to get past him. I am going to

play aggressive and hopefully get a lot of first serves and play finds

of tennis when I can. So let's take a quick look

at the rest of today's action. Once Andy Murray finishes up

on Centre court Roger Federer steps And Novak Djokovic is also playing

today taking on Tomas Berdych. The number two seed has spoken out

about his unhappiness with The umpire at the end of the match

asked me about the whole because midway through the match I mentioned

there was the whole and he wanted me to show him so I showed him. His

reaction was not that great. I guess grounds men and everyone is doing

their best. I have no doubt that they are giving their best to have

the court in the most playable condition possible at this moment

but it is what it is. It's four weeks now since

the devastating fire which destroyed Grenfell Tower in Kensington -

and this programme has discovered that fewer than half the local

authority areas with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed

fire safety tests have started People were talking about the

cladding on the outside of the building and people are thinking

that might have contributed to this bead with which the fire spread and

the government have said that there have been 600 tests on similar

blocks around the country. 255 have come back as a feel on fire safety,

that is every test so far. What are people doing? We spoke to councils

and housing associations rather than councils in 36 areas affected. Of

those, in 13 areas, one in three, they have started taking this

material down and in another ten they are planning to do so. This is

material we think is banned in other countries, the US, Germany, but it

is still in many of these blocks in this country. Why are councils and

council associations not acting more quickly? Just because they failed

thus one fire safety test, that does not mince a thoroughly mean that the

whole building is unsafe, that is the argument. This is one part of

the wider system that involves insulation and everything else and

they say if they start ripping off these panels on the outside that

could make things even more dangerous. Could it expose material

underneath? Someone flicks a cigarette out of the window it could

cause problems. Fire safety experts think this material will have to

come down in the long-term. One said it is like dressing in the flammable

clothing and standing next to a naked flame. Eventually it will have

to come down. There is this split between councils who have decided to

actually do we and others saying it will take time and they have to

think it through. What about other forms of fire protection?

Sprinklers? Sprinklers is interesting. There is a split

depending where you live. If you build a new tower block more than 30

metres height you have to set sprinklers. If you refurbish a block

you do not have to do it and that was the case with Grenfell Tower.

Plenty of people thinking that is going to have to change. It was the

recommendation in 2009 after a similar fire in south London but it

has not happened everywhere. It depends where you live. In one

council they say they are going to fit sprinklers in every block over

ten stories, that is 100 blocks that area alone. You can see how much

that might cost. Sheffield are fitting in 24 areas. Others saying

they will not go down that route at the moment. One resident in

Islington... Sorry, we are going to hear from John Walker outside the

Supreme Court on the pension ruling. ... Just. My husband and I can get

on with enjoying the rest of our lives together. It is to our

government's great shame that it has taken so many years, huge amounts of

taxpayers' money and the UK's highest court to drag them into the

21st-century. In the years since we started this legal challenge, how

many people have spent their final days uncertain about whether their

loved one will be looked after? How many people have been left

unprovided for having already suffered the loss of their partner?

I would like Theresa May and her ministers today to make a formal

commitment that this change will stay on the statute books. After

Brexit. I would like to thank the people who have made this possible.

As a grey-haired pensioner I wanted to take on a ?1 billion each year

large super chemical company, not a chance in the world, but thanks to

Liberty who are here to support little people like me, we went out

and took them on. After round one a classic David and Goliath, Goliath

decided he needed help so he brought in the Department for Work and

Pensions, her majesties government, a big lot to take on, but thanks to

these people we were able to do it. The liberty of the phone two

amazingly talented incredibly hard-working very professional and

beyond anything else really passionate barristers. One of them

is here today, Max, Max and Martin. They have won this case today. It

has taken 5.5 years to get here. A long journey. Those people have made

it possible with liberty for a little person might need to take on

the government. We can all do it. There is one other person out there,

you know who you are, who made it possible for me to come to the

Supreme Court. Many of my family have been incredibly supportive over

the years and my husband who is not here today, he is with a family

sadness but thank you, thank you very much. John Walker, amazing.

Absolutely delighted he has been trying to get the same rights as

heterosexual married couples and today he has done it, for him and

his husband, this text from MDL, thank you, John Walker, fighting to

make life better for all people. This text from Richard, I am a

heterosexual married man, if gay people breathe the same air as me

and pay the same taxes, they should have the same rights. Let's carry on

our conversation, I beg you pardon, who will carry on with Jim just a

second ballot IS go back to the Supreme Court because Clive is with

John Walker. John, you have just broken about your long battle, have

you had a chance to speak to your husband? I haven't. I hope I will in

a minute, so very excited. Just explain why it was so important for

you as a couple to have the security knowing that should you predeceased

him he will have that full pension? I think it would be the same with

any couple, whether it is heterosexual or same sex, somebody

that you love, that person you want to make sure is looked after as long

as they are alive. I am other than him, therefore statistically the

chances are that I will buy before him. I wanted to ensure he was

looked after. He should be and he will be. You must be absolutely

thrilled, but you made a point just then that really it is EU law that

has ridden to your rescue. Post Brexit, is there a real threat that

perhaps the government could row back Mr session? Think there is, but

the answer lies over there. Out of my depth, but I sincerely hope that

Theresa May will do the right thing, something that should have been done

a long time ago, and get this thing sorted out once and for all. There

are people who are dying, people who have died who are not going to

benefit from this. Actually I think the decent thing would be for those

companies to now get into gear and look after the people that have

gone. John, thank you very much indeed. An absolutely delighted John

Walker but there is perhaps just a hint of a threat on the horizon as a

result of Brexit, that this ruling today could be rowed back on.

Something of an issue of concern for John and others in his position, but

today a day of delight for him. Thank you very much Clive and John

Walker. Let's carry on our, session with Jim, who has been looking at

the fact that fewer than half of local authorities and housing

associations that have got this cladding on that have failed fire

safety tests have managed to remove the panel so far. You have been

talking to residents in one particular tower block in north

London. Yes, a resident in Islington. In her block, they have

started to remove the cladding, big trucks are out there doing it. Two

weeks ago, this president had a second daughter, so had a tiny

little baby in the flat. We went round there to ask how safe she now

feels in her own home. It does reassure me

to a certain extent. They've put fire wardens

in as well 24 hours. After the Grenfell Tower,

I did not feel safe. I had lots of questions

inside my head and I still don't. Because to me, there's still no

clarity as to how safe we are. Considering that we only

have one fire escape at the end of the corridor,

so I'm at the opposite Having that secondary staircase,

in case the corridor is blocked one way, would actually help those

residents who live If everybody were to leave

at the same time, it wouldn't work, us leaving and the fire brigade

trying to make their way up, They would have to jump

from the window and the third floor is the lowest floor,

which is from here, What about the other issues around

the sprinklers in particular? Would you feel more secure

if sprinklers were fitted? It was a recommendation

after the Lakanal House fire. What comes to me is that lady,

for example, at the Grenfell Tower who flooded her flat and that's

what saved her life. In such a tall building

where the fire brigade do not have the equipment to go

above the 12th floor, if I'm not mistaken,

having sprinklers installed And it was here,

it was a gas cooker. And it just caught fire

and it burned everything My husband was very good,

because it was a gas cooker, He burned his hands,

burned his eyes, but he was able to contain the fire

until the fire brigade came. That was scary enough,

scary enough for my own daughter who had to call the fire brigade,

who was shouting because her daddy was still in here and he got her

to get out. And scary enough for me to be extra

careful with everything. How much has having a new baby

changed things in your head? I was thinking, so,

having two children, having a 14-year-old

and a two-week-old, I was on the internet

and I was looking for fire I have fire extinguishers,

but you know, gas masks. It's just made me much more scared,

having such a little one, so vulnerable, it just scares

the living daylights out of me. This is where we live,

but try and make it safer by installing all these things that

were recommended after I believe they'll be recommended

again after the Grenfell Tower fire, once they've finished

with their inquest. It's been recommended

already, in 2009. Let's talk to the chair of a group

of MPs that campaigns for fire safety. Conservative MP Sir David

and Steve Kofi, Chief Executive Liverpool mutual homes, one of the

landlords that has removed cladding from its property, and Ronnie King,

former chief fire officer and Henri Secretary of the group of

politicians who look at fire safety, he is neutral, impartial and

independent. David Amis, why has it taken so long for local authorities

and housing associations to remove the cladding that has failed fire

safety tests? I have absolutely no idea. I think you did hear from

someone earlier in the programme, suggesting that it is a complicated

procedure, but as far as I am concerned, it is up to each local

authority, housing association to act as quickly as they possibly can.

Might I also say if local residents are concerned about non-action on

this matter they should contact their own local MP as soon as

possible. And what difference will that make? A great deal of

difference. Most MPs come in to make a difference to people's lives, and

I have no doubt that members of Parliament, if they are contacted by

local residents, they will get onto the Minister and complain about the

situation. Phone calls will be made and then I think there will be some

pretty swift action but there may be different reasons for the delays,

depending on the situation in various local authorities but

Southend council has taken immediate local action on this matter and I am

reassured by what they have done already. Steve Croft, since

Grenfell, what work have you done on Europe properties? Thanks, Victoria.

It is for weeks now, I am sitting 200 miles away but everything is

vivid to everybody, and for housing associations, the first and foremost

priority is the safety and security of their tenants. So when this test

failed or we got notification that it had failed, we immediately took

steps to put interim measures in place and begin removing the

cladding. However, there is a total lack of clarity around the tests

themselves. This particular block we have had sprinklers, has individual

heat and smoke sensors in properties, has automatic door

closes, has no gas in the flats, has all the safety measures you would

think and is probably one of the safest places in the UK. However, it

does have cladding with a retard and mineral core. It has failed the

government's test, but it has passed a new test, so we need some real

clarity on where we are with things. Said David Amess, that is a fair

point, people like landlords like Steve Coffey did not know what tests

were carried out on some of the properties that they own. This is a

real issue and why our committee has been asking for 11 years for the

building safety regulations... It is not about building regulations, it

is about the specific tests that have been carried out since

Grenfell. Someone in your government must know the details, the specifics

of those tests? I am speaking in the debate in Parliament today, and I

shall raise that very issue with the appropriate minister. Who is that,

do you think they will now? Alec Sharma is the minister I think who

will be responding to the debate. He has already meant -- Halep Sharma. I

will ask him further details of why they does not seem to be clarity

about the testing of the cladding. The Housing minister.

The National fire chief counsel have undertaken to years of research into

real-life fires that have occurred. The findings are pretty conclusive

that in 100% of occasions in fires and flats, sprinklers have actually

controlled or extinguished fires on every occasion. I think that's

phenomenal, that really vindicates why automatic fire sprinklers should

be used. And indeed that was the recommendation from the coroner

after the Lakanal fire in south London in 2009. The coroner asked

the Secretary of State to encourage those providers of social housing to

consider installing automatic sprinkler protection. What the

Secretary of State did was referred to a letter he had sent to the

coroner at Southampton, by saying it is over to you. He didn't encourage,

he said it is over to you to determine the appropriateness of

automatic fire sprinklers. In other words, this is what the coroner is

saying. He didn't encourage it for his said it is your decision. Thank

you very much, gentlemen. Ronnie King, said David Amess, and a liver

for Steve Coffey. We will watch the debate intensely in the Commons this

afternoon. Still to come: We hear

from the charity campaigning to have all prostitution related

offences scrapped from sex It looks like Ariana Grande

is to become an honorary citizen of Manchester after organising

a concert to raise funds for victims Councillors are meeting right now,

where they're expected 22 people died when suicide bomber

Salman Abedi detonated a device at the end of Ariana Grande's

concert on the 22nd May. Last month, Grande organised

this concert for the # You are, you are,

you are my everything... What better way to fight evil

with evil than to fight evil # All the times that

you rained on my parade # All the clubs that

you get in using my name... Let's just do this

little exercise in love. Tell them, I love you,

look in their eyes. In an exclusive interview last week

we spoke to Andrew Roussos, the father of eight-year-old

Saffie Roussos, the youngest victim He told us what a hero

he thought Arianne Grande was. The biggest part of why

I wanted to meet her is to tell her what she

meant to Saffie and, I wanted to tell her that I don't

want her to blame herself, because she was very,

you know, distressed at the time and blamed herself and a lot of

different people said rotten things And, you know, beautiful,

stunning young lady herself and when I met up with her, all she could say

to me was, I'm sorry, and I said, You know, you made Saffie and all

the children round the world so happy with what you do

and you've done nothing wrong. And how did she respond

to what you said to her? She appreciated me telling her

that because obviously again, as a young lady, she must

feel bad, you know, on what happened and everything else and I just

wanted to tell her from me that I thanked her for making my daughter

adore her and aspire to her. And I said to her,

you know, many things It could have happened halfway

through the concert, at And she got to see her,

right to the end, and she's been looking so forward to it that I'm

grateful that she got We can talk to Ann Marie

McNally in Prestatyn who was at the concert

with her daughter Lauren. She says her daughter is traumatised

and rather than giving an honour to Arianne Grande perhaps

the council should be recognising the work

of emergency services. You're one of many people who are

saying that council should officially... Clearly they have

thank them a number of times, I have heard that, but he think of visual

recognition is what they should be prioritising. Yes. There was a lot

of people on that evening that ran in to help, taxi drivers, the

homeless gentleman, I cannot remember his name, and his friend.

These people were there on the ground trying to save people, trying

to help people as much as possible, helping children to get home to

parents, contacting. And the emergency services of course. They

are human beings like ours. Yes, they are trained and skilled that

they had a lot to be dealing with. Some would say that is their job.

Well, we all have jobs, but we all went to that concert that night and

never expected to come out and see what we saw and experience what we

did. From my point of view, whether they are skilled and whether it is

the job, they still dealt with it and dealt with that very

professionally and I am sure they have come away from the situation as

traumatised as the ones in there. Adam Harrison was also at the

concert with his eight-year-old daughter Lily who was injured. Good

morning. I know that you and Lily met Arianna Grande at the hospital

where my she was being treated. You think it is right that the council

are looking to make Arianne Grande an honorary citizen of Manchester.

Yes, absolutely. You hear stories about meeting celebrities and you

think it might be rehearsed but the amount of time she spent with us and

everybody on the ward at the Children's Hospital... She made sure

everybody was feeling well. My daughter was not sure if she wanted

to go to the concept but within seconds of meeting her she was

certain she wanted to go. Manchester is the proud city. To give her that

confidence she is deserving of what is being discussed. You got a little

bit of what Anne-Marie was saying. She thinks the council should be

prioritising official recognition of the emergency services. Yeah,

absolutely. That is their job, but there was no fallback for them not

performing. I am having a lazy 20 minutes to speak to you but they

cannot afford such a lapse in concentration. They had to be on

form for the evening and the days following. The enthusiasm, keeping

spirits high, these guys had given up their days off to come in and

help us. I cannot speak highly enough of them. I will not have a

bad word said about any of them. That is the point. Honorary citizen

ship is being considered by councillors in Manchester, that does

not mean something recognising the emergency services is not an option

further down the line. No. Of course not. But I think they're definitely

should be an acknowledgement to the emergency services and the taxi

drivers and the other individuals who were around and about such as

the guy who was homeless who helped, did everything they possibly could

to try to help save lives and help in any way they could. Lily

fractured her collar bone in the bombing and her mum Lauren was hit

by shrapnel in the leg. How are they doing? They are both doing well.

Lily is more physically able than me and Lauren. I have the ruptured

ankle and Lauren has a flesh wound on her thigh so we are wobbling

around and Lily fractured her collar bone and shrapnel went through her

back and missed her spine and major organs and she is running around and

giving us a heart attack. She is doing really well. How is Lauren?

Lucy, I so sorry. She is OK. In an indirectly it has affected as

psychologically. She has had to have some counselling but as days goes by

it gets better. Thank you. Adam Harrison talking about his daughter

Lily and Anne-Marie talking about her daughter Lucy.

This programme has learnt that recording artists are being told not

to say which pop stars have influenced any of their music

in case they end up being sued for copyright infringement.

It follows the high-profile copyright infringement case

in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams,

on their song Blurred Lines, had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It

Tht case is going to appeal over the next few months.

We bought you our reporter Chi Chi Izundu's full report earlier.

MUSIC: Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke ft TI, Pharrell

Blurred Lines was globally the biggest track of 2013,

raking in more than ?12 million in profits from sales alone.

But in 2015, a court in the States ruled that Pharrell Williams

and Robin Thicke had infringed the copyright

of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up and awarded his estate just over

Marvin Gaye was cited as being the inspiration for Blurred Lines

and Pharrell Williams even stated that he wanted to channel

In the Blurred Lines case, Robin Thicke's interviews went

well beyond saying that he was simply inspired

What he said in his interviews was that he and Pharrell, or he

directed Pharrell, to create a song

just like Got To Give It Up, and that they tried to get the same

rhythm and those types of things going in creating Blurred Lines.

So it's much more than just inspiration.

What you try and do with copyright is to work

Musicologists like Peter Oxendale say the decision regardless is

having huge implications on the industry.

All of these companies are worried that if a track is

referenced on another at all, a claim may be brought.

So do you know of labels telling artists not to publicly

Many of the companies I work with with ask the

producers and the artists to declare all of the tracks that may have been

used as inspiration for their new tracks.

They send them to me well in advance of release, probably six

Those are the behind the scenes arguments

but what about an artist who writes, composers, produces

We all listen to stuff and we all get ideas

The trick of it, I think, is trying to turn those ideas into

something new, rather than just repeat them or copy them.

You only learn that by listening to it.

So you are influenced simply by listening to music.

Even if you don't like the music, it's going to

In just over two months, Pharrell Williams,

Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate will be back in court in the

If Pharrell wins, it could mean a brand-new trial and the music

industry has to go through this whole thing again.

Whatever the verdict, it does seem that the

industry will be extremely wary about copyright, as well as

creativity, when it comes to releasing new music.

Chi Chi Izundu, who was reporting, is here to tell us a bit more.

So basically everyone's trying to avoid a copyright

The word copyright and courts does not even come into it. They go into

negotiations for about a year before court is even suggested. They are so

desperate not to get there. Yes, it takes a lot of behind

the scenes arguing and negotiating before even the word

court is uttered. In 2014 - Sam Smith had a big

hit with Stay With Me. Peaked at Number one

in the Official Chart, sold more than four million copies,

and won record of the But fans and lawyers for Tom Petty -

who headlined the British Summer Time Festival in Hyde Park last

weekend - noticed similarities between Sam's song and

Tom's I Won't Back Down - That was Tom Petty's I won't

Back Down, and here's # Stay with me.

# This ain't love it clear to the. # Stay With Me now has Sam,

his writing partner Jimmy Napes, Tom Petty and his writing partner

Jeff Lynne as chief songwriters. In a statement on Tom's website

he said no hard feelings towards Sam but "All my years of songwriting

have shown me these Most times you catch it before it

gets out the studio door Here's another huge track that

quietly added songwriters to its credits within weeks

of the Blurred Lines judgment. MUSIC: "Uptown Funk"

by Bruno Mars and Mark Ronson. Uptown Funk, by Bruno Mars

and Mark Ronson, topped the US Billboard chart for 14 weeks,

originally had six songwriters. In April 2015, it picked up

another five from 1970s They had some names. Money is going

to change hands presumably. Exactly. They cut new deals to get new

royalties and the distribution is made that way. And they stay out of

court. We can speak now to Helienne

Lindvall, songwriter and director of the British Academy

of Songwriters, Composers And James Walsh, lead singer

of the band Starsailor, which has sold more

than three million albums. OK, are you afraid, James, to say

who your inspirations are now, publicly? Not particularly, well, to

be perfectly honest I think as long as you haven't thought of ripped

someone off, as Gary Numan said in the VAT you just played, everyone is

influenced by someone, is inspired by someone, and I think, like I say,

as long as your track isn't like that, then it is quite acceptable to

say yes, I listen to a lot of Ryan Adams, while listening to the --

making the album, I listen to Spiritualised. Have to be aware.

Ryan Adams will come out! Correct. The industry is nervous, is that

fair? Well, I think probably what James is saying for Starsailor is a

bit different than for some pop acts. When you are a songwriter for

hire basically, usually when you work with an artist or a label or

sometimes even when they send out lists of what they are looking for,

they can only reference it according to what they already know, so you

will get a reference saying we are looking for something that sounds

may be like a mix of can't stop the feeling with Justin Timberlake meets

either now Justin Bieber or something like that. Now, obviously,

you don't want to send e-mails like that out because that might be

brought up in court later. But I wanted to just address the different

examples, because I do feel like the difference it is with headlines, it

is not melodically or lyrically the same as the Marvin Gaye track. In my

view and in the view of many other musicians, we're talking about

production, arrangement. Even George Clinton, one of the most sampled

artists in the world, who has influenced loads of people,

including Bruno Mars, I'm sure, and Mark Ronson, he even said about the

case that he couldn't see it, because he said you can't copyright

a vibe. Well, in their depositions, they were talking about it is just

the feeling, the vibe and that was enough of the US jurors. Yes, I

think it is sad this case has come around, particularly when Motown,

which Marvin Gaye came up through, all those artists shared a lot of

influences and sounds, and the feel and the vibe of the songs. They are

still amazing songs, they can still coexist together, but now all of a

sudden this litigious nature that everyone is kind of suing each

other, and it is a bit of a shame really. You are right, you say it is

the arrangement, the production and so on, but Chi gave the example

where it was quite similar so the new lot have added the old lot of

songwriters onto the credit because they went yes, hands up, you got me

there. With the Sam Smith case for example, he might have said he had

never heard that song with Tom Petty, and in all honesty, I

wouldn't be surprised if that is true. It is not the most original

kind of... You know, there is only a limited amount of notes on the

scale, and there are only some notes that work together more pleasantly

than others. But, even so, actually I think somewhere along the line it

would have been easier for somebody who heard the song, summary of the

publishing company, producer, saying it was similar. As far as I know,

there already is a rule in place where if a melody shares more than a

certain number of notes... That is actually not correct. Is it not?!

Urban myth. There is not a set number of notes, no formula. But

that was settled amicably, and I think the issue now is, and

obviously the Bruno Mars, the first on her that song like code here

because I know the gap band and I thought wow, that is really, really

similar. Now the issue is if you realise that you have something very

similar or involuntarily you copy something, it could happen very

easily. Then change it. You can either change it or you reach out to

that songwriter and say we have got this in our song, can we arrange a

split? But what happens if you do it after it has been released? Then the

people who come and sue you, they can, as in the Marvin Gaye case,

they can just go and claim as much as they want because the song is

already out. Do you think the blurred lines case closed before it

would happen frequently with melodies and lyrics but with the

blurred lines case are we going to get travellers and drum tracks

saying, the feel of this song... We will see what happens, because they

are appealing against it in October. Thank you both for coming on the

programme. A campaign is being launched

to scrap all prostitution related offences from sex

workers criminal records. NIA, a charity which

aims to end violence and discrimination against women,

says sex workers struggle to move on and get a new job

because of their criminal record and the stigma associated

with being a prostitute. One woman describes how her child's

school refused to allow her to enter the playground

because she was a "sex offender". We can speak now to Fiona Broadfoot,

who's a former prostitute who says that criminal records

hold her and women like her back, when they try and return

to conventional employment. And to Heather Harvey

from the charity NIA which has Hello, those of you. Hello. Fiona,

tell us a little bit about what you want to do now and why previous

convictions are holding you back? I was groomed and trafficked into

prostitution at the tender age of 15. I was at risk of extreme sexual

violence and abuse. None of the perpetrators whoever bought or sold

me ever face any criminal convictions. I have a catalogue of

convictions. Is with the holistic them here? It is an eight page

double sided document. And it shows I have been convicted from one end

of the country to the other. I have been given fines, Exeter Exeter.

Dekhar conviction 1986, prostitute loitering ventilator six. I was 18

years old firm. Prostitute loitering, and so it goes on. OK, so

why should your convictions be wiped? What is different about

prostitution, why not cannabis possession of a teenager, why should

that not be wiped? Why isn't the same argument? I did not choose to

be involved in prostitution, I was forced. I wasn't willingly stood out

on the streets, I wasn't a criminal. That is a catalogue of my abuse