12/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

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Four weeks after the Grenfell Tower fire, Victoria looks into what councils have been doing about cladding on tower blocks.

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It's four weeks now since the devastating fire which destroyed


Grenfell Tower block in Kensington and this programme has discovered


that fewer than half the local authority areas with tower blocks


wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests have started


Residents have also told us they're asking for new fire exits


But where is the money for that going to come from?


After Grenfell Tower did not feel safe. I had lots of questions and


mine head. I still do not. There is no clarity as to how safe we are.


More on that story to come, and in the next few


minutes we'll get reaction from residents and politicians.


I want to thank you for coming together and being so strong and


loving and unified. Councillors in Manchester


are meeting today to discuss giving Arianne Grande


honorary citizenship after she organised that concert


to raise funds for victims We'll hear from two


survivors of the attack Plus: Bands are song


writers are being told not to reveal which musicians


inspired their latest tracks for fear they'll be done


for copyright infringement. MUSIC: "Blurred Lines"


by Robin Thicke ..was found to have


copied this one... MUSIC: "Got To Give It


Up" by Marvin Gaye. Our full exclusive


story before 10am. Throughout the morning,


the latest breaking news And, as always, really


keen to hear from you. A little later in the programme


we'll hear from a former prostitute who's part of a campaign to ban


all prostitution related offences Campaigners say at the moment it's


too hard for sex workers to move on and find jobs if their records


show they've been Use #VictoriaLIVE, and if you text


you will be charged President Trump's eldest son has


said he didn't tell his father about a meeting last year


with a Russian lawyer who was apparently offering to help


the Trump election campaign. Yesterday Donald Trump Junior


released e-mails which showed he was keen to see what incriminating


material the lawyer was prepared to offer on Mr Trump's election


rival, Hillary Clinton. The e-mails feature an exchange


between Donald Trump Jr and the British publicist Rob


Goldstone. Early in the thread,


Goldstone says that he can broker a meeting with a Russian journalist,


who says he has damaging information about Hillary Clinton,


information which would be "useful In retrospect,


I probably would have For me this was opposition research,


so I wanted to hear it out. Nowhere was it apparent that this


is what the meeting was about. President Trump has been largely


silent on the issue, saying only that his son


was a high-quality person and that Did you tell your father


anything about this? I mean, I wouldn't have even


remembered it until you start It was literally a wasted 20


minutes, which was a shame. President Trump travels to France


today, anxious no doubt to escape the impression


that his is an administration Joanna Gosling is in the BBC


Newsroom with a summary Police investigating


the Grenfell Tower fire say the task of identifying all the people


who died in the tragedy could take many months but they are determined


to "return those who died The head of the recovery team says


it's the worst incident Today marks four weeks


since the devastating fire, and tonight the community will come


together for a vigil to honour those who lost their lives,


as Sarah Smith reports. Four weeks of grief and shock,


of searching for loved ones Police estimate at least 80


people lost their lives. It is the job of the disaster victim


identification teams The man leading the job says that


it's the worst incident he has We are looking at a fingertip


search of all the flats, That would involve officers


on their hands and knees. I feel passionate about


getting those people back I understand how frustrating


it is for people outside of this environment to sit there


and wait and say, why can't Tonight, in the shadow


of Grenfell's blackened shell, a vigil will be held


to remember those who died. One of those who escaped the burning


tower is Antonio Roncolato, woken by his son who saw the flames


as he returned home. The smoke was very thick,


very horrible smell, obviously. I said there was no way


I could get out there. He would be led to


safety by firefighters. The questions over what happened


here started before the flames Similar cladding on more


than 200 other buildings has Labour has called for the process


to be speeded up, saying the government has been too


slow both in helping Grenfell residents and making sure


other blocks are safe. Later today there will be a debate


in Parliament over the enquiry to be Four weeks on and the real business


of finding answers feels as though And the Victoria Derbyshire


programme has found that fewer than half the local authorities


with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests


have started to remove the material. Following the Grenfell fire


the government said it planned to carry out fire safety tests


on 600 buildings across England. But despite every test on material


taken from those buildings failing, so far only one in three housing


associations and councils have Political parties must do more


to prepare candidates for the ruthless nature


of campaigning, according A parliamentary cross-party group


made the recommendation in a report documenting the scale of abuse


and intimidation of parliamentary candidates


during the general election. One MP suffered an anti-Semitic


attack and another was targeted by racist graffiti


and repeated death threats. The report will be debated


by MPs this afternoon. The National Audit Office has


criticised the government's handling of a new electronic tagging system


for offenders in England and Wales after the costly project


fell behind schedule. So far, the Ministry of Justice has


spent ?60 million on the system, which has fallen five years behind


schedule. The ministry's ambition


for a bespoke world-leading combined GPS and radio frequency


tag proved unachievable. And the programme was also


beset by problems in Lloyds Banking Group, which has more


than 20 million customers, is scrapping all fees and charges


for overdrafts that Last year, the consumer group


Which called for a crackdown on unarranged overdraft charges


after it found that they could be A charity says every household


in the UK should get a one-off rebate of ?285 on its energy bills,


because providers have been making excessive profits


at the expense of its customers. Citizens Advice says


the regulator Ofgem allowed companies to charge too much


and overestimated their costs. But Ofgem and energy providers


are disputing the claim, as our Personal Finance


Correspondent reports. A quarter of our bills is made up


of the cost of transporting electricity and gas,


a job done by the National Grid and various local


network companies who, because this is a monopoly,


have their charges vetted Citizens Advice estimates that


in the current eight years, which we are halfway through,


the network companies stand to make ?7.5 billion of excess profits,


hence the demand for a rebate of ?285 per household,


the money to be returned Ofgem have overestimated


the cost of investment For example, interest rates haven't


been as high as they expected. They've also allowed the companies


to earn money at the rate that a much riskier company would be


able to do and they have not been tough enough with the companies


on sharing the benefits of any Ofgem says the cost of getting our


gas and electricity to us has been going down and it's


already secured rebates. But it's launching a review today


of how it sets prices in future. The network companies reject


the calculations made by Citizens Advice and point to huge amounts


of money they need to invest. This programme has learned that


artists are being advised not to state publicly who they're


inspired by because of fears it could lead to lawsuits


for copyright infringement. It follows the high-profile case


in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams


had copied a Marvin Gaye song. This has led to fears that the music


industry could become Anthony on Facebook says, 80s music


is, was, the best overall. The proof of this is in the number of songs


that include samples or are based on 80s songs. Most of not all of these


will have obtained authorisation but there are many new sells that cause


they be the cause of old songs and tunes and infringe copyright. Does


this stay for new music? No. That is the cost of sampling. Due to the


greed of the music industry rather than the musicians. Even says yes,


copyright laws stifle creativity. We have a really interesting film about


that just before 9:30am. Let's get the latest sports


headlines with Leah, and it's all about Wimbledon today,


isn't it, Leah? Yes. Konta is one match away from


the final. She beat her Romanian opponent 2-1. It came with the


controversial match point where a scream from someone in the crowd


seemed to put them both of. Konta was watched by Virginia Wade who won


the tournament in the year of the Queen's Silver Jubilee. Konta will


take on Venus Williams on Thursday. Andy Murray will be looking to do


the same later than his quarterfinal on Centre Court. He takes on his


American opponent and he thinks that his opponent will be a challenging


opponent. His brother Jamie and Martina Hingis are through to the


last eight of the mixed doubles after winning in straight sets. The


match was stopped twice because of rain but they won in an hour and 11


minutes. These two are brilliant. They are brothers and wild cards in


the men's doubles and becoming one of the unlikely success stories of


the tournament. They are through to the quarterfinals but did not expect


to last two weeks because they only got their hotel for a week. They are


Liverpool fans and have sorted somewhere to stay, a hotel next to


Stamford Bridge. We will have more at 9:30am live from Wimbledon.


It was exactly four weeks ago that fire broke out at Grenfell Tower


in North Kensington, and this programme has discovered


that fewer than half the local authority areas with tower blocks


wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests have started


Today the Labour Party describes the fire safety


Meanwhile, a consultation period on the terms of reference


for the public inquiry into the fire has been extended by two weeks.


Many of those affected by the fire have expressed concern


that the scope of the inquiry, to be chaired by Sir


Martin Moore-Bick, will not be broad enough.


MPs will debate the inquiry in Parliament today.


We'll get reaction from various guests


in a moment but first here's how this programme has


covered the story over the last four weeks.


I've seen some things but today I can't even describe it.


There's mothers that have come out and lost


There are firefighters that have come out injured.


There was smoke everywhere, literally everywhere.


There was people downstairs, there was bits of


the cladding falling off the block that was on fire.


There's people who were jumping out the place.


There's a man who threw two of his children.


Honestly, it's all right, you don't have to say any more.


I looked behind me and I didn't see my brother.


I said, "My brother, my brother, where is he?"


Then I went outside, I called him, and I said, "Where are you?"


He said, "No one brought me outside."


Lives didn't need to be lost and they're lost and people


are looking for their children and it's so unfair.


Today we're back here in North Kensington


to catch up with some of those we first met on that first


Wednesday to bring you more remarkable stories of those who


escaped and to find out how people are doing.


Check it and forget your label of MP, human.


Then you will gain the respect and understanding of these


The housing minister, I'm told,


And his name is Alok Sharma and he has agreed to be with us


today after after pressure from residents.


So I know you have questions for him.


Why is it OK that there are thousands of empty homes


right in this area and these people are homeless?


Listen, don't give me any rubbish and think I'm going to


accept it because I'm not going to accept it.


Olu does not want temporary accommodation.


He wants good permanent accommodation.


Victoria, so, what we have said is that...


Can you please be specific as to what package you are offering


in terms of housing or rehousing the residents


And be specific about it, please, without the flowery words.


And can we just get him to speak, otherwise


Let the Minister speak so we hear what he's


Please let us know what your commitments are.


So, what we have committed to is anyone


whose home has been destroyed will be housed by next


Wednesday in good accommodation and then we will work with -


and in housing that is acceptable to them - so what we're not


offered a home, you don't like it, and you are still asked to go in.


Would you like to meet with the minister again


We will be meeting the Minister again.


I'll say the same thing I said when I met


These are our needs, this is how you can accommodate for us.


We do not need you to throw us in temporary accommodation.


We do not need you to put me and my family in


Meet our needs or just tell us the truth


If you can't meet the requirements, it's simple.


If you can't do it, tell us the truth.


Just this morning police Everest footage of officers from the victim


identification group entering Grenfell Tower.


Commander Stuart Cundy, the officer leading the investigation has said


police are determined to do all we can to return those who died to


their families as soon as we can. This is a statement released four


weeks on from the terrible tragedy. Met police Sergeant Alastair


Hutchinson is the officer leading on identifying victims.


We believe in dignity in death, repatriating family members as soon


as we can and adhering to an identification process that will


ensure that the right person gets brought back to their loved ones.


We can speak now to Moyra Samuels from the Justice for Grenfell group,


Pilgrim Tucker, a community organiser, who supported


Grenfell Tower residents' campaign, the Grenfell Action Group,


Melanie Onn, Labour's spokesperson on housing, and Lucy Masoud,


a Chelsea firefighter and union official.


Moira, let me ask you, your assessment, if you like, of where


the survivors and residents are four weeks on? I think, as people have


indicated, there are still a lot of disorganisation. We have only had 18


families that have been rehoused. You know, a survivor I spoke to said


they had been made an offer that was withdrawn. I think people still feel


the system is still a little bit disjointed, and their needs are not


really being met. Is that fair, Pilgrim? You were nodding in


agreement. I would echo that completely but I would say not a


little bit, I would say there are still a total failure continuing.


Have there been no improvements? Very minor improvements, but these


residents and survivors are daily being faced with an onslaught of


queues, as Joe mentioned earlier in the film, terrible decisions they


have to make, chopping and changing with a public enquiry. And very,


very difficult problems with their housing, and still actually


incompetence, and an inability of whoever is in authority to put


themselves in the shoes of these people and actually approached them


in a caring manner, which will help them. And use the resources that the


council have. This is the wealthiest council in the whole of the UK, and


they can afford to house these people properly and securely. You


mean by using some of the reserves that the council have the buy new


properties? Yes. 300 million reserve, they have 1400 empty


properties in Kensington and Chelsea. Requisitioning. Do what you


need to do, buy them. You can't have a month after a fire of this nature


with only 18 families have been rehoused. As I understand it, offers


of accommodation have been made to 158 families, 18 have accepted, and


we have reported on this programme some of the reasons why others have


turned it down, because they are worried about getting something


permanent within the borough if they have been offered something


temporary outside, or it is just inappropriate, unsuitable, not big


enough, or far away. Let me ask you, Melanie, Labour's spokesman on


housing, you have this debate in the Commons today, what is the point of


it? It is about putting pressure on the government to be as open and


transparent as possible about the progress they are making if there


has been any, because without doing that the residents are not going to


start to see any of the benefits that the government really should be


able to offer. We are hoping that there will be answers around the


status of the tower blocks around the rest of the country because we


know that only 500 have been tested. The focus of the government has been


on those tower blocks that have the same kind of cladding is the


Grenfell Tower, but there are much bigger questions. If there were to


be a fire and another block somewhere in the country, what with


the response be? Would it be the same situation all over again,


because it is really important that we lose that -- learn the lessons of


Grenfell and quickly. We have discovered that the tower blocks


that have failed, only half of the blocks have yet had those panels


removed. Do you think it could be speeded up? We are saying that a lot


of the information coming from government has been so unclear, and


that is reflected in the comments of residents from Grenfell. We know


that Salford council for examples courted its deep cladding of its


tower blocks because of information coming from government about safety


has not been clear. Is it safer to keep the cladding on or not? --


Kensington and Chelsea council has a new leader. It is Elizabeth


Campbell, and she was asked on Radio 4 if she had ever been inside


Grenfell Tower. This is what she said. Had you ever been inside? I am


going before. Before the fire? I haven't been inside before the fire?


Had you ever been inside the traffic tower? Not trailer, not Grenfell,


but I have been inside many other council houses. But the high-rise


ones, have you ever been inside any of them, before the Grenfell Tower,


haven't you ever been up into any of those high-rise council blocks? I


had not, but I am certainly doing that now. You are shaking your head.


It is a person so disconnected. They are completely disconnected from the


community. I would go so far as to say they actually have disdain for


the North Kensington community. This new leader, the first thing she did


was apologise for the failings of the council to the survivors. Too


little, too late, sorry, and she has been implicated in a lot of the cuts


we have seen across the borough. We have been talking about the cuts to


services. Housing being one of them. And she is implicated in them. How


do you react, Pilgrim? Again, I think Moyra is correct in everything


she has just said. I think the new council leader has an opportunity


here, and I think if she wants to last in her political career, she


needs to take drastic action, and they do have the resources to help


this situation, and they can rehoused these people, and that


would be one way of genuinely showing that she was sorry. So


action, not just words. Lucy, hello, Chelsea firefighter and union


official. In terms of the firefighters and the magnificent


efforts they tried to make that night, where are we now, in terms of


when you look back, how things could have been done differently? Firstly


I would like to pay tribute to my firefighters who fought tirelessly


on that day, the brave men and women but also the control workers who


took those calls from those victims, and in many cases heard people


perish on the end of the phone. I would like to pay tribute to them. I


think everyone involved, including all the emergency services, dealt


with the incident amazingly, but I do feel that we didn't have the


right resources. Of course it is far too early to speculate. My union are


doing the own investigation into the fire. Certainly we feel that the


cuts that have affected us over the last three years, we are talking


about ?130 million to London Fire emergency and rescue services by the


former mayor, now Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, the closure of ten


fire station, 29 fire stations -- fire engines taken off-line, the


removal of 20,000 firefighters, we think that had an effect. You also


didn't have an aerial platform that went high enough, you had one that


went up to 32 metres, the tower was 70. You are right, the highest


ladder in London is 32 metres, the higher slider in the UK is in


Surrey, 42 metres, we have to ask for them to send their ladder, it


took hours for it to get us. Again it is too early to speculate what


difference that would have made, but we know for instance there is a fire


engine or a fire station in Mumbai that has a ladder that goes up to 90


metres. Why does the UK, the 13th richest country in the world, not


have ladders go up to 90 metres, where they are available? Why do you


think? I think our former mayor spent far too much money, ?320,000


on illegal water cannons that were useless and not used. Did we used to


have big aerial platforms? The money has never been put in. So we have


never had one is over 42? Absolutely not, and they have been available to


sometimes, there are over 100 ladders that reach up to 90 metres,


are -- our highest ladder in London goes up to 32 metres. Jenny tweets


this, I cannot believe the complete disregard for the victims of


Grenfell. E-mail from Douglas, it is a time to start asking why flammable


material is allowed to be manufactured from building purposes


at all. Roses as your programme has done more than any other to give


voices to the people of Grenfell Tower, and so it goes on. Thank you


all of you, we will watch the debate very carefully this afternoon in the


Commons. Thank you for coming along. It is half past nine. Time for the


latest news headlines with Joanna. Here's Joanna Gosling


in the BBC Newsroom President Trump's eldest son has


said he didn't tell his father about a meeting last year


with a Russian lawyer who was apparently offering to help


the Trump election campaign. Yesterday Donald Trump Junior


released e-mails which showed he was keen to see what incriminating


material the lawyer was prepared to offer on Mr Trump's election


rival, Hillary Clinton. Police investigating


the Grenfell Tower fire say the task of identifying all the people


who died in the tragedy could take many months but they are determined


to "return those who died The head of the recovery team says


it's the worst incident Today marks four weeks


since the devastating fire, and tonight the community will come


together for a vigil to honour those And the Victoria Derbyshire


programme has found that fewer than half the local authorities


with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed fire safety tests


have started to remove the material. Following the Grenfell fire


the government said it planned to carry out fire safety tests


on 600 buildings across England. But despite every test on material


taken from those buildings failing, so far only one in three housing


associations and councils have That's a summary of


the latest BBC News. Johanna Konta is the semi-finals and


Andy Murray is hoping to make it this afternoon. Our reporter is


there. It is freezing. We are causing


chaos. We wanted to show you the Royal Box. This is where might the


great and the good come. They have to make it really tidy and clean.


They have left behind a little bit of equipment. Maybe I will get to


work with that later. It is freezing. I am sure that it should


warm up. It has been raining during the night. The forecast is good. We


are going to keep our fingers crossed. It is chilly but I am


joined by someone you might recognise. Serena Williams' coach.


Even though your face. We see you in the box when Serena is playing and


you are willing heart on, maybe sometimes showed encouragement.


Sometimes. Sometimes cool and not seeing anything. I've tried to send


to hire the right vibe. You have a little bit of downtime, not that


much because the rear is still keeping fit and playing. She is of


having a baby, due in a couple of months. You have taken the


opportunity to write your life story and how you came to be coached to


one of the greatest athletes of all time. Yes. I wrote a book because my


editor proposed me to do it, an autobiography. I felt I was too


young but she filed I was old enough. It is explaining how I was a


very shy kid, very sick, very bad at school, my future looked terrible


and at a certain point when I was 11, 12, 13, I took decisions to


change my life and maybe in the future have the chance to live the


life I was dreaming of and it happened because I made those


changes. My editor vertebra is undressing for people to understand


how you can change your life to have a chance to live your dreams. That


is what I did. I started at 26 my academy and it is the biggest


academy of Europe. I was not a professional tennis player and I was


able to work with professional tennis players, great players, and


finally Serena, who became the greatest of all time. I cannot be


lucky to be able to live that life. It is also the consequence of a few


decisions. That is the story of the book. It is exciting even for people


who are not into tennis because it is also about life. It is also about


coaching. We see players compete, we lose all this emotion. People do not


know what is done behind-the-scenes. That is what I explain. Let me make


use of your coaching experience and ask what Johanna Konta should be


focusing on. The first British woman through to a semifinal in 39 years.


I understand why you keep your eyes on that. It is going to be difficult


match for her because she is facing Venus is the best the four players


still in the draw on grass. She has been so successful in the last 15,


20 years. Five trophies here and the mike other finals. She played the


final of the first Grand Slam of the season. Johanna Konta will have to


beat her. I am so impressed by what she has done so far. So focused, so


good on the big points. Whenever she had to defend her serve she has been


doing incredibly well. She has been really impressive. She has to be


tired physically and mentally. So many tough fights. When you have to


stay into the match for two and a half hours and you cannot afford to


lose your server, you defend points, you play two tie-breaks, she left a


lot of mental strength on all of those fights she had to face. I hope


she will be able to keep the same level of intensity for every point


because she will have to. How battle is mental. Andy Murray's battle is


more physical and with himself, managing an injury. That is true. It


is so difficult to play being injured. It is sad because he


finally comes back to a good level just before Wimbledon at the right


time after making an enormous effort to become world number one in the


world, physical and mental. I was very impressed with what he did last


year. When you make such an effort you pay the price afterwards that is


what happened at the start of the season, he was exhausted mentally.


He reached his ultimate goal. When you do so you need time to be said.


It is a difficult period. He is back and he has a problem with his hip.


He has been managing that not so bad. When you reach this stage you


have to be 100%. How is Serena? When can we see her back? She wants to be


back so bad. She is seven months pregnant. She is so happy about


becoming a mother but she misses matches. She is unable to compete


and she is wanting other bee book on beating. When she announced she was


pregnant she said I am pregnant but I am not done with tennis. Please


wait for me. I will be back soon. I will be waiting for her. She wants


to come back as early as she can. We do not know how long it will take


for her body to recover but you will see her again definitely. Thank you


for joining us. Serena taking a very unusual approach to maternity leave.


I thought you were supposed to sit on your silver and eat somebody's


and chocolate. She does, but she plays tennis every day. That is


unusual. It is good to know that the emergency alarm is working


perfectly! Unemployment fell by 64,000 down to 1.49 million in the


three months to me. Average earnings increased by 1.8% in the year to


May, down by 0.3% on the previous month, average earnings increasing


across the whole year by 1.8% but that is down by 0.3% on the previous


month. A gay man fighting to win his


husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy in a heterosexual


relationship has told this programme he felt the law


was "totally discriminatory". Former cavalry officer John Walker,


who's 65, will find out the result of his battle at the UK's highest


court in the next few minutes. He wants to ensure that


if he died first, his husband, who is in his 50s, will be


adequately provided for. Speaking to me before the ruling,


he said the decision would be "the end of the legal road" for him


after an 11 year fight. I joined a company where I had to


join the pension fund, it was contributed a, I paid and 423 years


the same as other colleagues. The fact I had a civil partnership and


married a same-sex partner, my partner will get no disposal pension


rights whereas if I was divorced, to divorce my partner and marry a woman


she would get full rights, thousands of pounds. It is total


discrimination. In cash terms, if you died and had the wife, how much


would she get and how much would your husband get? She would get


somewhere between ?45,000 and ?50,000 a year and my husband would


get somewhere between ?500 in ?1000 a year. Explain the law. We have


human rights law and equality law and we have equal marriage but we


only have equal married in name because there is this loophole in


the quality legislation which means that people in same-sex marriages


cannot have the same pension rights as people in heterosexual marriages.


It is civil partnerships as well. Correct. In the past this has gone


against you. If things go your way today what are the implications for


others? It means that thousands of loving couples all over the UK can


have equal access to pension arrangements and equal marriage


looks more like equal marriage and we can properly claim to be an equal


and human rights compliant society so we hope that is what happens and


even if we do not win the case the couple -- government can do the


right thing. You have been fighting this case for 11 years. What has


that been like? Stressful. But life goes on. The end of the legal road


today. 11.5 years. It is a big day. How have you been affected in terms


of your life as a couple? How has this impacted on you both? We have


tried not to let it impact too much. We have had huge support from Martha


and her colleagues, from many friends and people from our company.


It is stressful because I am a reasonably organised person, I'd


like to plan things and have things planned, it is likely statistically


that I will predeceased my husband, I am older than him, so I would like


to have everything tied up. Maybe today will be able to do that, maybe


not. Thank you. We are expecting the judgment any moment. As soon as we


hear it we will bring it to you live.


This programme has learned that artists are being advised not


to state publicly who they're inspired by on their new music


because of fears it could lead to lawsuits


It follows the high-profile case in which US jurors ruled that


Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams, on their track Blurred Lines,


had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up.


An appeal against that ruling is due to be heard over


Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu has been looking at claims that that


judgement has left the music industry "nervous" and


MUSIC: Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke ft TI, Pharrell


This is the story of two songs


and one court judgment and its impact


I think it was decided in a way that has got everybody feeling a


I hate all this, "Oh, I'm completely original," you know, "I've


Because some are now asking whether they should stop even


talking about artists who inspire them.


So do you know of labels telling artists not to publicly


So, what is the difference, if any, between being inspired by a


Got To Give It Up by Marvin Gaye was released in


1977 and reached number seven in the UK charts and number one


Blurred Lines was globally the biggest track of 2013,


raking in more than ?12 million in profits from sales alone.


In 2015 Pharrell Williams and Robin Thicke


were told their track Blurred Lines breached copyright.


Marvin Gaye's estate was awarded just over


?4 million and 50% interest in future royalties.


Pharrell Williams told the court that Marvin Gaye's music was the


soundtrack of his youth and that he was channelling that 70s feeling.


Note the use of the word feeling in this deposition video


When you were creating Blurred Lines, were you


trying to pretend that you were Marvin Gaye?


But as I look back I feel that feeling when I went in the


studio to work with Robin I sought out a bluegrassy chord structure


that I felt like could be interesting on a soulful voice.


It felt like Marvin Gaye going into Nashville making a groove.


What you try and do with copyright is work


Peter Oxendale is one of a handful of


forensic musicologists in the world and he says the judgment


was about the feel or the groove of the song,


not copying directly, and it's had huge implications.


So it's not just a group of notes or a lyric that's


It's just, maybe I was inspired by your watch, basically?


Simply nothing's really changed but everyone's concerned that


inspiration can be a catalyst for infringement.


And so all of these companies are worried that if a


track is referenced on another at all that there may be a claim being


brought, and what they are really fearful of is a claim being brought


Over in California, Richard Busch, the


Gayes' family lawyer, says that's not true.


That is the story that the Pharrell and Robin Thicke camp have


been telling to try to drum up support for this the-sky-is-falling,


no-one's-going-to-be-able-to-create- music,


you'll-be-sued-for-whistling-in-pub- lic kind of argument


If anyone was actually aware of the evidence and the facts


that were presented, you would know that it


This inspiration, this feeling that they


try to say was the basis for the decision.


In fact, I believe we had 15 different compositional elements


that we identified as being substantially similar between


Well, maybe Pharrell's camp are winning in the courts of public


opinion, because questions and doubts


are still being raised in the


industry, as Ed Sheeran's lawyer Simon Dixon can confirm.


It wouldn't have been decided the same


way over here, so as a result I think everybody felt that they knew


what the law was, I felt they knew what the parameters were.


And when you know what the laws are and the


This injects an element of grey into the picture.


So as a result people are less certain now about what they


can and can't do, and as a result, as I say, everybody feels


So those are the behind-the-scenes arguments but what


about the artists who write, compose, produce


We're all inspired by something, there's influence in everything.


But I just think the responsibility of


the songwriter is always to push forward, which always involves


nodding back, which is important too.


But I think if you're feeling self-conscious about that I think


there's another battle going on there...


There is no such thing as a completely original composition.


We learn music by practising, and what


We practise patterns, we practise scales.


We're reinterpreting these formulas over


You know, if I play a song that goes doo-doo doo-doo, I'm


playing doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo.


The art of music-making is the reinterpretation


We all listen to stuff and we all get ideas


The trick of it, I think, is trying to turn those ideas into


something new, rather than just repeat them or copy them.


I mean, I know how to write songs because I heard one, so


I know what a verse is and a chorus is and a break and all those things.


You only learn that by listening to it.


So you are influenced simply by listening to music.


Even if you don't like the music, it's going to


And according to experts, just to be on


the safe side, labels are cautiously making sure new music from their


artists doesn't skirt too closely to work from the past.


The process is known as forensically checking music.


Many of the companies that I work with ask the producers and the


artists to declare all of the tracks that may have been used as


They send them to me well in advance of release, probably six months


producers and composers, from Hans Zimmer to R Kelly, signed


a court document backing Blurred Lines


was allowed to stand it is very dangerous to the music community


and is certain to stifle creativity and impede the creative process.


But the battle lines were drawn when musicologists


and acts behind hits like Could It Be I'm Falling In


Love, along with other businesses, backed the Marvin Gaye family


calling the motion hypothetical, because the decision was based on


disputed evidence about protectable aspects


I think it's a great shame because, speaking personally, I've


been influenced by Motown, rock and roll, punk,


all this stuff, 90s music, dance music, and if I am a


good musician, I hope I am, or musicologist,


because of all these influences taken on board, I'm proud


of these influences and it's a great shame that artists are actually


disinclined to reveal their inspirations.


In the Blurred Lines case, Robin Thicke's interviews went


well beyond saying that he was simply inspired


What he said in his interviews was that he and Pharrell, or he


directed Pharrell, to create a song


just like Got To Give It Up, and that they tried to get the same


rhythm and those types of things going in


So it's much more than just inspiration.


In just over two months, Pharrell Williams,


Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate will be back in court in the


If Pharrell wins, it could mean a brand-new trial and the music


industry has to go through this whole thing again.


Whatever the verdict, it does seem that the


industry will be extremely wary about copyright, as well as


creativity, when it comes to releasing new music.


Later in the programme, we'll be getting reaction


She organised the concert that raised ?2 million


for victims of the terror attack in Manchester, but should singer


Ariana Grande be given honorary citizenship of the city?


We'll talk to two survivors with very different opinions.


Another little bit of history was made at Wimbledon yesterday


when Johanna Konta became Britain's first female Wimbledon semi-finalist


since Virginia Wade almost 40 years ago in 1978.


It's been 39 years since a British woman can say, I'm a


She's done it in front of the last woman to do it, Virginia Wade.


It raises the very tantalising prospect that a Brit


could win both the women's and men's title at


Not to forget a potential third title for Andy's brother


Jamie Murray who is progressing well in the mixed doubles.


Johanna Konta's rise to the top of British tennis has been


Last year she didn't get past the second round of Wimbledon.


So for the next few minutes, here's everything you need


In 2009, she was ranked 469 in the world.


Two years ago in 2015, she was ranked 126 in the world,


last year she was ranked 19th, and now she's officially ranked


Though that will change after Wimbledon.


In the past 12 months she's won titles in Los


She was born to Hungarian parents in Sydney, Australia,


and lived there till the age of 14 when she move to the UK,


she officially took British citizenship and began playing


I've always, ever since I moved here, I've spent


I really, essentially, grew into the tennis


player but also, more importantly, the person I am today here.


It was never a case of me feeling more and more British.


She was introduced to tennis at the age of eight and soon became


fiercely competitive. She has described herself as highly strung


in the past, and acknowledges that she once reduce the assisted the


tears during a game of Monopoly. The family are not particularly sporty,


her dad runs hotels and her mum is a dentist but they have always


supported her in her career. One of her grandfathers,


Tamas Kertesz, played twice for Hungary in the 1950s


and went on to coach Ghana. She's coached by Wim Fissette,


who has previously helped former world No 1s Victoria Azarenka


and Kim Clijsters. Her boyfriend Jackson Wade


has been cheering her They've been dating since


she won the Miami Open - thought she's fiercely private


about her private life. She lists movies, reading


and shopping among things she likes to do in her spare time


She's also a huge fan of Van Morrison and U2, saying she's


remortage her house for a chance Last year she went to see


Taylor Swift in Hyde Park She keeps a relatively low profile


and is fairly unshowy compared to other tennis stars -


admitting she's not too She has however been able


to ditch her old Peugeot hatchback for a fancy red Jaguar,


given to her by her sponsor. You've no doubt heard plenty


about Johanna Konta baking muffins every day after Wimbledon -


she's a bit of a foodie overall and says she's "always hungry" -


but never deprives herself of anything, including


pizza and gelato. A typical day's diet


would be - for breakfast - and a slice of rye toast


with ham....then for lunch - tuna salad, and a bowl of steamed


brown rice...and for dinner - pizza with ham and mushrooms


and a salad....with snacks of bananas and blueberry


and raspberry chia pudding. Justin Sherring is owner and head


coach at Weybridge Tennis Academy and coached Johanna Konta


in her teens What was she like then? Very much


like you see her now, very bubbly, very enthusiastic, very passionate


and very focused. Did she say to you back then I want to win Wimbledon? I


don't think she did, but if she did she might have said it with a big


tongue in her cheek, but as we have seen over the last couple of years,


she means business, and she meant business back on the day when she


was training very hard for this moment. Did you see potential in her


the winning a grand slam title? I saw potential as someone who could


play at a very high level. I didn't know whether that level was grand


slam semifinalist or Wimbledon winner potentially. But I knew that


she could play at a very high level. She had some very special. Do you


think she will win at this time, don't say you hope she is. The


title. I think she can win the title, let's just say, she is


hitting the ball well enough and she plays like she has I think she can


do it, yes. Thank you rematch, Justin. The latest news and sport on


the way, before that all of the weather forward modern and the rest


of the UK. Much improved conditions across the


country after all the cloud and outbreaks of heavy rain across the


south-east. Conditions will continue to improve and it becomes largely


dry with plenty in the way of sunshine developing as we head to


the afternoon, that rain clearing the Kent and Sussex coast, allowing


the sunshine through the Southern counties, and across the country


with light winds, feeling quite pleasant in the sunshine,


temperatures widely reaching the high teens and the low 20s. So for


one wouldn't conditions will be fine proved why the afternoon commute can


swap the umbrella for some sunscreen as we are expecting some sunshine,


dry conditions and temperatures reaching up to 22. We continue with


fine weather as we head into the evening, high there with us, long


clear spells overnight and turning quite chilly, especially for some


sheltered rural glens. Tomorrow, Kauto Star, sunshine around but also


scattered showers developing, but the bulk of those showers for


Northern Ireland and north-western parts of Scotland. Temperatures


still reaching the high teens and low 20s. That is your forecast.


Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.


The community of the Grenfell Tower fire have said they are struggling.


I had not been inside before the fire. I have been inside many other


council houses. The council are completely disconnected from the


community. They have disdain for the north -- north Kensington community.


Plus this programme has discovered that fewer than half the local


authority areas with tower blocks that have failed safety tests have


I have lots of questions in my head and I still do not. There is still


no clarity as to how safe we are. She helped raise ?2 million for the


victims of the fire but Bush -- of the terror attack in Manchester but


should she be made an honorary citizen of the city? Artists are


being encouraged not to reveal who has inspired them for fear that they


will be done with copyright infringement. This index grain to


the picture so people are less certain about what they can and


cannot do. We will talk to the lead singer of Star sailor about how this


issue affects his work. John Walker, we heard from him in


the last half hour, has won back his Supreme Court battle to secure his


husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy. The ex-cavalry


officer, 65, has won back his 11 year long legal battle to secure his


husband the same pension rights a wife would enjoy. We can talk to our


legal correspondent at the Supreme Court. Incredible news for John


Walker. Fill us in. Incredible news for John Walker and his spouse but


also great news for spouses in same-sex marriages and civil


partners because this was about... John Walker had an issue... He had


worked for a company for 23 years, starting around 1980 and ending in


2003, and at the time he saw... Civil partnerships were not lawful


and neither were same-sex partnerships. Same-sex marriages


became lawful in 2005 and shortly after he and his partner entered the


civil partnership and are married. He wanted his partner to have the


security of knowing that when Mr Walker died his spouse would be


entitled to the full pension. They relied on an exemption that said the


company could discount the years of service of paying into the pension


that predated the coming into force of civil partnerships so anything


before December 2005 needing ended effectively be discounted. That made


a massive difference to his partner and would've meant that upon Mr


Walker's death the pension his partner would of got would have been


around ?1000 as opposed to ?46,000. A massive difference. The Supreme


Court has ruled that that cuts out in the Equality Act, that exemption


that allows those benefits that accrued before 2005 to be


disregarded, that contravenes ideas in breach of EU law and that cutout,


that exemption, as to be death applied. In all cases.


That will allow his partner to get the full pension of ?46,000 per


annum. This has huge implications because the judge is not limited to


this case, this applies generally to same-sex marriages and civil


partnerships across the board, and that is huge. Thank you. As soon as


John Walker comes out of the building, we will hopefully talk to


him live about this news which she has been fighting force for 11


years, he has been -- he was telling us earlier.


Here's Joanna Gosling in the BBC Newsroom


Donald Trump Junior has said he didn't tell his father


about a meeting he had with a Russian lawyer during last


year's US election campaign because there was nothing to tell.


Yesterday he released emails which showed he was keen to see


what incriminating material the lawyer was prepared


to offer on his father's rival, Hillary Clinton.


Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say the task


of identifying all the people who died in the tragedy could take


many months but they are determined to "return those who died


The head of the recovery team says it's the worst incident


Today marks four weeks since the devastating fire,


and tonight the community will come together for a vigil to honour those


And the Victoria Derbyshire programme has found that fewer


than half the local authorities with tower blocks wrapped in panels


that have failed fire safety tests have started to remove the material.


Following the Grenfell fire the government said it planned


to carry out fire safety tests on 600 buildings across England.


But despite every test on material taken from those buildings failing,


so far only one in three housing associations and councils have


Unemployment fell in the three months to May,


The jobless rate has dropped to lows last seen in 1975 at 4.5%.


But the data also show that pay is not keeping up with price rises,


meaning households are feeling the strain of rising prices


That's a summary of the latest BBC News.


On the pension news we have just brought to you, the ruling from the


Supreme Court, emails to say I have been accept that occupational


pensions which will not give my survival is pension to my common-law


partner who I have lived with for over eight years, unless I marry


her. I do not want to be forced to marry. These pension trustees are a


law to themselves to drive to cut costs. Just marry her! Life is


short. Get in touch. It hasn't happened for 39 years


but Johanna Konta has She's the latest British woman


to reach the semi-finals of Wimbledon after a thrilling 2-1


win on Centre Court last night. It's hard to think that


Johanna Konta had only won one match Now, after a nerve shredding victory


against Simona Halep, I've always believed in my own


ability and I've always dreamt big. But I don't give myself


too much time to dream As is often the British


way on Centre Court, She lost the first set


on a tie-break against the second seed, not playing badly,


she just needed to find Relying on a powerful serve


and a booming backhand seemed Konta credits much of her rise up


the rankings to the work on the mental side of the game


and under this pressure you could Outside they tried to make


themselves heard through it. The first British woman


into the semi final since Konta winning over new fans


and a few older ones as well. Today all eyes will be on defending


champ Andy Murray and his semi-final against American big-server Sam


Querrey. In practise yesterday,


he still looked like he was He's aiming for an eighth


semi-final, and his match against the number 24 seed gets


underway around 1pm. And Querrey has embraced


his underdog billing. He is the defending champion, number


one in the world, you just have to go out and play your best and hope


things go your way. He is going to be the favourite no matter who he


plays. I will have to play extremely well to get past him. I am going to


play aggressive and hopefully get a lot of first serves and play finds


of tennis when I can. So let's take a quick look


at the rest of today's action. Once Andy Murray finishes up


on Centre court Roger Federer steps And Novak Djokovic is also playing


today taking on Tomas Berdych. The number two seed has spoken out


about his unhappiness with The umpire at the end of the match


asked me about the whole because midway through the match I mentioned


there was the whole and he wanted me to show him so I showed him. His


reaction was not that great. I guess grounds men and everyone is doing


their best. I have no doubt that they are giving their best to have


the court in the most playable condition possible at this moment


but it is what it is. It's four weeks now since


the devastating fire which destroyed Grenfell Tower in Kensington -


and this programme has discovered that fewer than half the local


authority areas with tower blocks wrapped in panels that have failed


fire safety tests have started People were talking about the


cladding on the outside of the building and people are thinking


that might have contributed to this bead with which the fire spread and


the government have said that there have been 600 tests on similar


blocks around the country. 255 have come back as a feel on fire safety,


that is every test so far. What are people doing? We spoke to councils


and housing associations rather than councils in 36 areas affected. Of


those, in 13 areas, one in three, they have started taking this


material down and in another ten they are planning to do so. This is


material we think is banned in other countries, the US, Germany, but it


is still in many of these blocks in this country. Why are councils and


council associations not acting more quickly? Just because they failed


thus one fire safety test, that does not mince a thoroughly mean that the


whole building is unsafe, that is the argument. This is one part of


the wider system that involves insulation and everything else and


they say if they start ripping off these panels on the outside that


could make things even more dangerous. Could it expose material


underneath? Someone flicks a cigarette out of the window it could


cause problems. Fire safety experts think this material will have to


come down in the long-term. One said it is like dressing in the flammable


clothing and standing next to a naked flame. Eventually it will have


to come down. There is this split between councils who have decided to


actually do we and others saying it will take time and they have to


think it through. What about other forms of fire protection?


Sprinklers? Sprinklers is interesting. There is a split


depending where you live. If you build a new tower block more than 30


metres height you have to set sprinklers. If you refurbish a block


you do not have to do it and that was the case with Grenfell Tower.


Plenty of people thinking that is going to have to change. It was the


recommendation in 2009 after a similar fire in south London but it


has not happened everywhere. It depends where you live. In one


council they say they are going to fit sprinklers in every block over


ten stories, that is 100 blocks that area alone. You can see how much


that might cost. Sheffield are fitting in 24 areas. Others saying


they will not go down that route at the moment. One resident in


Islington... Sorry, we are going to hear from John Walker outside the


Supreme Court on the pension ruling. ... Just. My husband and I can get


on with enjoying the rest of our lives together. It is to our


government's great shame that it has taken so many years, huge amounts of


taxpayers' money and the UK's highest court to drag them into the


21st-century. In the years since we started this legal challenge, how


many people have spent their final days uncertain about whether their


loved one will be looked after? How many people have been left


unprovided for having already suffered the loss of their partner?


I would like Theresa May and her ministers today to make a formal


commitment that this change will stay on the statute books. After


Brexit. I would like to thank the people who have made this possible.


As a grey-haired pensioner I wanted to take on a ?1 billion each year


large super chemical company, not a chance in the world, but thanks to


Liberty who are here to support little people like me, we went out


and took them on. After round one a classic David and Goliath, Goliath


decided he needed help so he brought in the Department for Work and


Pensions, her majesties government, a big lot to take on, but thanks to


these people we were able to do it. The liberty of the phone two


amazingly talented incredibly hard-working very professional and


beyond anything else really passionate barristers. One of them


is here today, Max, Max and Martin. They have won this case today. It


has taken 5.5 years to get here. A long journey. Those people have made


it possible with liberty for a little person might need to take on


the government. We can all do it. There is one other person out there,


you know who you are, who made it possible for me to come to the


Supreme Court. Many of my family have been incredibly supportive over


the years and my husband who is not here today, he is with a family


sadness but thank you, thank you very much. John Walker, amazing.


Absolutely delighted he has been trying to get the same rights as


heterosexual married couples and today he has done it, for him and


his husband, this text from MDL, thank you, John Walker, fighting to


make life better for all people. This text from Richard, I am a


heterosexual married man, if gay people breathe the same air as me


and pay the same taxes, they should have the same rights. Let's carry on


our conversation, I beg you pardon, who will carry on with Jim just a


second ballot IS go back to the Supreme Court because Clive is with


John Walker. John, you have just broken about your long battle, have


you had a chance to speak to your husband? I haven't. I hope I will in


a minute, so very excited. Just explain why it was so important for


you as a couple to have the security knowing that should you predeceased


him he will have that full pension? I think it would be the same with


any couple, whether it is heterosexual or same sex, somebody


that you love, that person you want to make sure is looked after as long


as they are alive. I am other than him, therefore statistically the


chances are that I will buy before him. I wanted to ensure he was


looked after. He should be and he will be. You must be absolutely


thrilled, but you made a point just then that really it is EU law that


has ridden to your rescue. Post Brexit, is there a real threat that


perhaps the government could row back Mr session? Think there is, but


the answer lies over there. Out of my depth, but I sincerely hope that


Theresa May will do the right thing, something that should have been done


a long time ago, and get this thing sorted out once and for all. There


are people who are dying, people who have died who are not going to


benefit from this. Actually I think the decent thing would be for those


companies to now get into gear and look after the people that have


gone. John, thank you very much indeed. An absolutely delighted John


Walker but there is perhaps just a hint of a threat on the horizon as a


result of Brexit, that this ruling today could be rowed back on.


Something of an issue of concern for John and others in his position, but


today a day of delight for him. Thank you very much Clive and John


Walker. Let's carry on our, session with Jim, who has been looking at


the fact that fewer than half of local authorities and housing


associations that have got this cladding on that have failed fire


safety tests have managed to remove the panel so far. You have been


talking to residents in one particular tower block in north


London. Yes, a resident in Islington. In her block, they have


started to remove the cladding, big trucks are out there doing it. Two


weeks ago, this president had a second daughter, so had a tiny


little baby in the flat. We went round there to ask how safe she now


feels in her own home. It does reassure me


to a certain extent. They've put fire wardens


in as well 24 hours. After the Grenfell Tower,


I did not feel safe. I had lots of questions


inside my head and I still don't. Because to me, there's still no


clarity as to how safe we are. Considering that we only


have one fire escape at the end of the corridor,


so I'm at the opposite Having that secondary staircase,


in case the corridor is blocked one way, would actually help those


residents who live If everybody were to leave


at the same time, it wouldn't work, us leaving and the fire brigade


trying to make their way up, They would have to jump


from the window and the third floor is the lowest floor,


which is from here, What about the other issues around


the sprinklers in particular? Would you feel more secure


if sprinklers were fitted? It was a recommendation


after the Lakanal House fire. What comes to me is that lady,


for example, at the Grenfell Tower who flooded her flat and that's


what saved her life. In such a tall building


where the fire brigade do not have the equipment to go


above the 12th floor, if I'm not mistaken,


having sprinklers installed And it was here,


it was a gas cooker. And it just caught fire


and it burned everything My husband was very good,


because it was a gas cooker, He burned his hands,


burned his eyes, but he was able to contain the fire


until the fire brigade came. That was scary enough,


scary enough for my own daughter who had to call the fire brigade,


who was shouting because her daddy was still in here and he got her


to get out. And scary enough for me to be extra


careful with everything. How much has having a new baby


changed things in your head? I was thinking, so,


having two children, having a 14-year-old


and a two-week-old, I was on the internet


and I was looking for fire I have fire extinguishers,


but you know, gas masks. It's just made me much more scared,


having such a little one, so vulnerable, it just scares


the living daylights out of me. This is where we live,


but try and make it safer by installing all these things that


were recommended after I believe they'll be recommended


again after the Grenfell Tower fire, once they've finished


with their inquest. It's been recommended


already, in 2009. Let's talk to the chair of a group


of MPs that campaigns for fire safety. Conservative MP Sir David


and Steve Kofi, Chief Executive Liverpool mutual homes, one of the


landlords that has removed cladding from its property, and Ronnie King,


former chief fire officer and Henri Secretary of the group of


politicians who look at fire safety, he is neutral, impartial and


independent. David Amis, why has it taken so long for local authorities


and housing associations to remove the cladding that has failed fire


safety tests? I have absolutely no idea. I think you did hear from


someone earlier in the programme, suggesting that it is a complicated


procedure, but as far as I am concerned, it is up to each local


authority, housing association to act as quickly as they possibly can.


Might I also say if local residents are concerned about non-action on


this matter they should contact their own local MP as soon as


possible. And what difference will that make? A great deal of


difference. Most MPs come in to make a difference to people's lives, and


I have no doubt that members of Parliament, if they are contacted by


local residents, they will get onto the Minister and complain about the


situation. Phone calls will be made and then I think there will be some


pretty swift action but there may be different reasons for the delays,


depending on the situation in various local authorities but


Southend council has taken immediate local action on this matter and I am


reassured by what they have done already. Steve Croft, since


Grenfell, what work have you done on Europe properties? Thanks, Victoria.


It is for weeks now, I am sitting 200 miles away but everything is


vivid to everybody, and for housing associations, the first and foremost


priority is the safety and security of their tenants. So when this test


failed or we got notification that it had failed, we immediately took


steps to put interim measures in place and begin removing the


cladding. However, there is a total lack of clarity around the tests


themselves. This particular block we have had sprinklers, has individual


heat and smoke sensors in properties, has automatic door


closes, has no gas in the flats, has all the safety measures you would


think and is probably one of the safest places in the UK. However, it


does have cladding with a retard and mineral core. It has failed the


government's test, but it has passed a new test, so we need some real


clarity on where we are with things. Said David Amess, that is a fair


point, people like landlords like Steve Coffey did not know what tests


were carried out on some of the properties that they own. This is a


real issue and why our committee has been asking for 11 years for the


building safety regulations... It is not about building regulations, it


is about the specific tests that have been carried out since


Grenfell. Someone in your government must know the details, the specifics


of those tests? I am speaking in the debate in Parliament today, and I


shall raise that very issue with the appropriate minister. Who is that,


do you think they will now? Alec Sharma is the minister I think who


will be responding to the debate. He has already meant -- Halep Sharma. I


will ask him further details of why they does not seem to be clarity


about the testing of the cladding. The Housing minister.


The National fire chief counsel have undertaken to years of research into


real-life fires that have occurred. The findings are pretty conclusive


that in 100% of occasions in fires and flats, sprinklers have actually


controlled or extinguished fires on every occasion. I think that's


phenomenal, that really vindicates why automatic fire sprinklers should


be used. And indeed that was the recommendation from the coroner


after the Lakanal fire in south London in 2009. The coroner asked


the Secretary of State to encourage those providers of social housing to


consider installing automatic sprinkler protection. What the


Secretary of State did was referred to a letter he had sent to the


coroner at Southampton, by saying it is over to you. He didn't encourage,


he said it is over to you to determine the appropriateness of


automatic fire sprinklers. In other words, this is what the coroner is


saying. He didn't encourage it for his said it is your decision. Thank


you very much, gentlemen. Ronnie King, said David Amess, and a liver


for Steve Coffey. We will watch the debate intensely in the Commons this


afternoon. Still to come: We hear


from the charity campaigning to have all prostitution related


offences scrapped from sex It looks like Ariana Grande


is to become an honorary citizen of Manchester after organising


a concert to raise funds for victims Councillors are meeting right now,


where they're expected 22 people died when suicide bomber


Salman Abedi detonated a device at the end of Ariana Grande's


concert on the 22nd May. Last month, Grande organised


this concert for the # You are, you are,


you are my everything... What better way to fight evil


with evil than to fight evil # All the times that


you rained on my parade # All the clubs that


you get in using my name... Let's just do this


little exercise in love. Tell them, I love you,


look in their eyes. In an exclusive interview last week


we spoke to Andrew Roussos, the father of eight-year-old


Saffie Roussos, the youngest victim He told us what a hero


he thought Arianne Grande was. The biggest part of why


I wanted to meet her is to tell her what she


meant to Saffie and, I wanted to tell her that I don't


want her to blame herself, because she was very,


you know, distressed at the time and blamed herself and a lot of


different people said rotten things And, you know, beautiful,


stunning young lady herself and when I met up with her, all she could say


to me was, I'm sorry, and I said, You know, you made Saffie and all


the children round the world so happy with what you do


and you've done nothing wrong. And how did she respond


to what you said to her? She appreciated me telling her


that because obviously again, as a young lady, she must


feel bad, you know, on what happened and everything else and I just


wanted to tell her from me that I thanked her for making my daughter


adore her and aspire to her. And I said to her,


you know, many things It could have happened halfway


through the concert, at And she got to see her,


right to the end, and she's been looking so forward to it that I'm


grateful that she got We can talk to Ann Marie


McNally in Prestatyn who was at the concert


with her daughter Lauren. She says her daughter is traumatised


and rather than giving an honour to Arianne Grande perhaps


the council should be recognising the work


of emergency services. You're one of many people who are


saying that council should officially... Clearly they have


thank them a number of times, I have heard that, but he think of visual


recognition is what they should be prioritising. Yes. There was a lot


of people on that evening that ran in to help, taxi drivers, the


homeless gentleman, I cannot remember his name, and his friend.


These people were there on the ground trying to save people, trying


to help people as much as possible, helping children to get home to


parents, contacting. And the emergency services of course. They


are human beings like ours. Yes, they are trained and skilled that


they had a lot to be dealing with. Some would say that is their job.


Well, we all have jobs, but we all went to that concert that night and


never expected to come out and see what we saw and experience what we


did. From my point of view, whether they are skilled and whether it is


the job, they still dealt with it and dealt with that very


professionally and I am sure they have come away from the situation as


traumatised as the ones in there. Adam Harrison was also at the


concert with his eight-year-old daughter Lily who was injured. Good


morning. I know that you and Lily met Arianna Grande at the hospital


where my she was being treated. You think it is right that the council


are looking to make Arianne Grande an honorary citizen of Manchester.


Yes, absolutely. You hear stories about meeting celebrities and you


think it might be rehearsed but the amount of time she spent with us and


everybody on the ward at the Children's Hospital... She made sure


everybody was feeling well. My daughter was not sure if she wanted


to go to the concept but within seconds of meeting her she was


certain she wanted to go. Manchester is the proud city. To give her that


confidence she is deserving of what is being discussed. You got a little


bit of what Anne-Marie was saying. She thinks the council should be


prioritising official recognition of the emergency services. Yeah,


absolutely. That is their job, but there was no fallback for them not


performing. I am having a lazy 20 minutes to speak to you but they


cannot afford such a lapse in concentration. They had to be on


form for the evening and the days following. The enthusiasm, keeping


spirits high, these guys had given up their days off to come in and


help us. I cannot speak highly enough of them. I will not have a


bad word said about any of them. That is the point. Honorary citizen


ship is being considered by councillors in Manchester, that does


not mean something recognising the emergency services is not an option


further down the line. No. Of course not. But I think they're definitely


should be an acknowledgement to the emergency services and the taxi


drivers and the other individuals who were around and about such as


the guy who was homeless who helped, did everything they possibly could


to try to help save lives and help in any way they could. Lily


fractured her collar bone in the bombing and her mum Lauren was hit


by shrapnel in the leg. How are they doing? They are both doing well.


Lily is more physically able than me and Lauren. I have the ruptured


ankle and Lauren has a flesh wound on her thigh so we are wobbling


around and Lily fractured her collar bone and shrapnel went through her


back and missed her spine and major organs and she is running around and


giving us a heart attack. She is doing really well. How is Lauren?


Lucy, I so sorry. She is OK. In an indirectly it has affected as


psychologically. She has had to have some counselling but as days goes by


it gets better. Thank you. Adam Harrison talking about his daughter


Lily and Anne-Marie talking about her daughter Lucy.


This programme has learnt that recording artists are being told not


to say which pop stars have influenced any of their music


in case they end up being sued for copyright infringement.


It follows the high-profile copyright infringement case


in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams,


on their song Blurred Lines, had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It


Tht case is going to appeal over the next few months.


We bought you our reporter Chi Chi Izundu's full report earlier.


MUSIC: Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke ft TI, Pharrell


Blurred Lines was globally the biggest track of 2013,


raking in more than ?12 million in profits from sales alone.


But in 2015, a court in the States ruled that Pharrell Williams


and Robin Thicke had infringed the copyright


of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up and awarded his estate just over


Marvin Gaye was cited as being the inspiration for Blurred Lines


and Pharrell Williams even stated that he wanted to channel


In the Blurred Lines case, Robin Thicke's interviews went


well beyond saying that he was simply inspired


What he said in his interviews was that he and Pharrell, or he


directed Pharrell, to create a song


just like Got To Give It Up, and that they tried to get the same


rhythm and those types of things going in creating Blurred Lines.


So it's much more than just inspiration.


What you try and do with copyright is to work


Musicologists like Peter Oxendale say the decision regardless is


having huge implications on the industry.


All of these companies are worried that if a track is


referenced on another at all, a claim may be brought.


So do you know of labels telling artists not to publicly


Many of the companies I work with with ask the


producers and the artists to declare all of the tracks that may have been


used as inspiration for their new tracks.


They send them to me well in advance of release, probably six


Those are the behind the scenes arguments


but what about an artist who writes, composers, produces


We all listen to stuff and we all get ideas


The trick of it, I think, is trying to turn those ideas into


something new, rather than just repeat them or copy them.


You only learn that by listening to it.


So you are influenced simply by listening to music.


Even if you don't like the music, it's going to


In just over two months, Pharrell Williams,


Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate will be back in court in the


If Pharrell wins, it could mean a brand-new trial and the music


industry has to go through this whole thing again.


Whatever the verdict, it does seem that the


industry will be extremely wary about copyright, as well as


creativity, when it comes to releasing new music.


Chi Chi Izundu, who was reporting, is here to tell us a bit more.


So basically everyone's trying to avoid a copyright


The word copyright and courts does not even come into it. They go into


negotiations for about a year before court is even suggested. They are so


desperate not to get there. Yes, it takes a lot of behind


the scenes arguing and negotiating before even the word


court is uttered. In 2014 - Sam Smith had a big


hit with Stay With Me. Peaked at Number one


in the Official Chart, sold more than four million copies,


and won record of the But fans and lawyers for Tom Petty -


who headlined the British Summer Time Festival in Hyde Park last


weekend - noticed similarities between Sam's song and


Tom's I Won't Back Down - That was Tom Petty's I won't


Back Down, and here's # Stay with me.


# This ain't love it clear to the. # Stay With Me now has Sam,


his writing partner Jimmy Napes, Tom Petty and his writing partner


Jeff Lynne as chief songwriters. In a statement on Tom's website


he said no hard feelings towards Sam but "All my years of songwriting


have shown me these Most times you catch it before it


gets out the studio door Here's another huge track that


quietly added songwriters to its credits within weeks


of the Blurred Lines judgment. MUSIC: "Uptown Funk"


by Bruno Mars and Mark Ronson. Uptown Funk, by Bruno Mars


and Mark Ronson, topped the US Billboard chart for 14 weeks,


originally had six songwriters. In April 2015, it picked up


another five from 1970s They had some names. Money is going


to change hands presumably. Exactly. They cut new deals to get new


royalties and the distribution is made that way. And they stay out of


court. We can speak now to Helienne


Lindvall, songwriter and director of the British Academy


of Songwriters, Composers And James Walsh, lead singer


of the band Starsailor, which has sold more


than three million albums. OK, are you afraid, James, to say


who your inspirations are now, publicly? Not particularly, well, to


be perfectly honest I think as long as you haven't thought of ripped


someone off, as Gary Numan said in the VAT you just played, everyone is


influenced by someone, is inspired by someone, and I think, like I say,


as long as your track isn't like that, then it is quite acceptable to


say yes, I listen to a lot of Ryan Adams, while listening to the --


making the album, I listen to Spiritualised. Have to be aware.


Ryan Adams will come out! Correct. The industry is nervous, is that


fair? Well, I think probably what James is saying for Starsailor is a


bit different than for some pop acts. When you are a songwriter for


hire basically, usually when you work with an artist or a label or


sometimes even when they send out lists of what they are looking for,


they can only reference it according to what they already know, so you


will get a reference saying we are looking for something that sounds


may be like a mix of can't stop the feeling with Justin Timberlake meets


either now Justin Bieber or something like that. Now, obviously,


you don't want to send e-mails like that out because that might be


brought up in court later. But I wanted to just address the different


examples, because I do feel like the difference it is with headlines, it


is not melodically or lyrically the same as the Marvin Gaye track. In my


view and in the view of many other musicians, we're talking about


production, arrangement. Even George Clinton, one of the most sampled


artists in the world, who has influenced loads of people,


including Bruno Mars, I'm sure, and Mark Ronson, he even said about the


case that he couldn't see it, because he said you can't copyright


a vibe. Well, in their depositions, they were talking about it is just


the feeling, the vibe and that was enough of the US jurors. Yes, I


think it is sad this case has come around, particularly when Motown,


which Marvin Gaye came up through, all those artists shared a lot of


influences and sounds, and the feel and the vibe of the songs. They are


still amazing songs, they can still coexist together, but now all of a


sudden this litigious nature that everyone is kind of suing each


other, and it is a bit of a shame really. You are right, you say it is


the arrangement, the production and so on, but Chi gave the example


where it was quite similar so the new lot have added the old lot of


songwriters onto the credit because they went yes, hands up, you got me


there. With the Sam Smith case for example, he might have said he had


never heard that song with Tom Petty, and in all honesty, I


wouldn't be surprised if that is true. It is not the most original


kind of... You know, there is only a limited amount of notes on the


scale, and there are only some notes that work together more pleasantly


than others. But, even so, actually I think somewhere along the line it


would have been easier for somebody who heard the song, summary of the


publishing company, producer, saying it was similar. As far as I know,


there already is a rule in place where if a melody shares more than a


certain number of notes... That is actually not correct. Is it not?!


Urban myth. There is not a set number of notes, no formula. But


that was settled amicably, and I think the issue now is, and


obviously the Bruno Mars, the first on her that song like code here


because I know the gap band and I thought wow, that is really, really


similar. Now the issue is if you realise that you have something very


similar or involuntarily you copy something, it could happen very


easily. Then change it. You can either change it or you reach out to


that songwriter and say we have got this in our song, can we arrange a


split? But what happens if you do it after it has been released? Then the


people who come and sue you, they can, as in the Marvin Gaye case,


they can just go and claim as much as they want because the song is


already out. Do you think the blurred lines case closed before it


would happen frequently with melodies and lyrics but with the


blurred lines case are we going to get travellers and drum tracks


saying, the feel of this song... We will see what happens, because they


are appealing against it in October. Thank you both for coming on the


programme. A campaign is being launched


to scrap all prostitution related offences from sex


workers criminal records. NIA, a charity which


aims to end violence and discrimination against women,


says sex workers struggle to move on and get a new job


because of their criminal record and the stigma associated


with being a prostitute. One woman describes how her child's


school refused to allow her to enter the playground


because she was a "sex offender". We can speak now to Fiona Broadfoot,


who's a former prostitute who says that criminal records


hold her and women like her back, when they try and return


to conventional employment. And to Heather Harvey


from the charity NIA which has Hello, those of you. Hello. Fiona,


tell us a little bit about what you want to do now and why previous


convictions are holding you back? I was groomed and trafficked into


prostitution at the tender age of 15. I was at risk of extreme sexual


violence and abuse. None of the perpetrators whoever bought or sold


me ever face any criminal convictions. I have a catalogue of


convictions. Is with the holistic them here? It is an eight page


double sided document. And it shows I have been convicted from one end


of the country to the other. I have been given fines, Exeter Exeter.


Dekhar conviction 1986, prostitute loitering ventilator six. I was 18


years old firm. Prostitute loitering, and so it goes on. OK, so


why should your convictions be wiped? What is different about


prostitution, why not cannabis possession of a teenager, why should


that not be wiped? Why isn't the same argument? I did not choose to


be involved in prostitution, I was forced. I wasn't willingly stood out


on the streets, I wasn't a criminal. That is a catalogue of my abuse


actually. So I don't believe I should never have been criminalised.


And actually, if now I were experiencing grooming and


trafficking, I would have been treated as a victim of abuse, not as


a perpetrator of a crime. Is that the same for all prostitutes,


though? Because I have interviewed some who voluntarily choose to go


out on the streets. To be quite honest, that isn't what I am here to


debate. I believe that prostitution is a form of abuse. I have met a


handful of women and have made a choice, in my experience the vast


majority, even after exiting, they are still mentally ill, addicted to


substances and the medication, physical health problems. Let me


bring Heather in on this point. Understood. Why is this something


the government should consider? I think the thing we are saying about


prostitution specific offences is that prostitution is a whole other


layer of stigma and discrimination attached to it and it is very


gendered. So the disclosure, the principle is you are trying to


prevent future harm. The women we are working with whenever the risk


of harm to anybody asked, they were in most cases themselves victims.


And the disclosure and barring service should be proportionate. The


kind of things we see in the report that we discuss, we see women who


are evicted from their housing, we see women who lose their


relationships with their children and with their families when these


things become disclosed. We see women who won't even apply for a job


because they don't want to sit and have a two-hour discussion with


senior male managers about a catalogue of abuse, which is what


that is. So they won't even apply for a job. If you do apply, many


times you are just turned away because you are perceived as having


been a sex offender. But even if you got a chance, you have to have a


discussion about two, three, five, ten years worth of prostitution,


which is layered with that stigma. People who are involved in selling


or been sold for sex should not become an ice and the first place


but they should give to have their prostitution records wiped and not


disclosed because it is disproportionate and has such


far-reaching effects. You can see others with convictions in the past


saying I want my drug dealing conviction being wiped, that is


stopping me from starting afresh on getting a new job. There is a


broader campaign around, no records but this is gender discriminatory,


predominantly, so what would be arguing for that is we need to talk


about, when somebody says prostitution, it goes into sex,


sexual harassment, abuse, that is very different. We are talking about


the most cases never wanted to be involved in it. Some of the women,


like Fiona were saying, if you start at the age of 15, that is not


prostitution, that is child abuse, grooming, that is the stuff we are


making a big fuss about right now about rather than all of those


areas. They should be treated as victims but they are treated as


perpetrators, and it hampers you for your whole life, not just jobs but


also your social interaction. Thank you both.


Plymouth press I'm sure is good to ask you Fiona, before we pause, we


haven't got much time, what jobs have you been blocked from getting


because this has come up when they have chopped your -- checked your


background? From applying to university places. Really? You mean


a job or going on in university course? If you do a university


degree in social work for example, you have to have a practical


placement that goes alongside that. That would be the barrier. OK, I


have to stop you there, but thank you very much.


On the programme tomorrow - we'll bring you the latest


on the Charlie Gard case, as his parents go to court again


Thank you very much for your company today. Have a good day.


Four weeks after the Grenfell Tower fire, Victoria looks into what councils have been doing about cladding on tower blocks.

Victoria speaks to the gay man who's won a legal battle for his husband to get the same pension rights a wife would enjoy in a heterosexual relationship.

And when it comes to writing songs, when does inspiration become outright copying?