25/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Tuesday, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

Charlie Gard's parents are spending their last precious

moments with their terminally-ill son after ending their legal fight

The Charlie, we say, mummy and daddy love you so much, we always have and

we always will and we are so sorry we couldn't save you. Charlie is

expected to die within days. We will get reaction from some of those who

have supported his parents. An NHS report into the use of joiner or

mesh in England has been branded a whitewash -- vaginal. Campaigners

have been calling for the use of the mesh to be suspended. I want the

procedure and material banned. It is a device of torture, please stop.

It's a story we first exposed in April.

We'll bring you the details and hear from campaigners who are

Plus, in an exclusive interview, the parents of an autistic man

pinned to the floor and to his bed for up to 11 hours by nine members

of staff at a private hospital in Birmingham tell us

the treatment their son experienced means he now has

Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning.

Plenty of developing stories to keep across this morning -

a little later, we'll tell you how the Government is looking

at banning leaseholds on new houses in England.

It's after we revealed some of the practises ripping off

Keen to hear your experiences on this.

And a little later in the programme, we'll hear from former Jehovah's

witnesses about their experience of leaving the religion and being

Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

use the hashtag #VictoriaLive, and if you text, you will be charged

Charlie God's parents say they are preparing to spend their last

precious moments with their son. They ended their legal battle to

take him to the US for treatment. In a statement, Great Ormond Street

Hospital where Charlie is on life support said they recognised the

agony, desolation and bravery of their decision. Caroline Rigby

reports. This photograph of Charlie Gard

was released by his parents last night, just hours after they told

the courts they now accepted Their fight to send Charlie

to the US for experimental Our son is an absolute warrior,

and we could not be prouder of him, His body, heart and soul may soon be

gone, but his spirit will live on for eternity,

and he will make a difference Charlie has been in intensive

care since October. He has a rare inherited condition -

mitochondrial depletion syndrome. It means he cannot move,

feed or breathe unaided. Charlie's parents had wanted

to send him for therapy in America, but judges ruled he should be

allowed to die after Great Ormond Street Hospital argued

the treatment was futile. The case came back to court

when this American neurologist, Michio Hirano, claimed new evidence

that his treatment could help. But that doctor has now told them

it's too late to treat Charlie. We are now in July, and our poor boy

has been left to just lie Great Ormond Street insist earlier

treatment would not have saved him. The hospital have praised

the courage of his parents, saying the agony, desolation

and bravery of their decision has His parents will now spend Charlie's

last few days by his side. Let us talk to Lisa. When is Charlie

Garde likely to come off his ventilator? The parents want to

spend as much time as they can with Charlie, who they are calling their

warrior. It will probably be a few days. It is unlikely to ventilator

will be taken straightaway, but nobody knows, they want to spend

time with him and the hospital will know the procedure, to get them used

to the idea it will happen. We have heard in the past they wanted to

take him home and the hospital said it was not possible. May try to get

that to happen again. But they have now realised that it is the end for

Charlie and we will probably find out in the next week or so that the

ventilator has been switched off. Great Ormond Street Hospital have

made comments about the US doctor, the American neurologist, who

offered some hope to Charlie. Yes, Great Ormond Street Hospital gave

statements last night. They wanted to say it in court, but it did not

happen. They accused him of giving the parents false hope, they say

Michio Hirano gave evidence at the initial court hearing, I was there,

it took three days, and he was giving evidence by Skype saying he

could help. But he did not examine Charlie and the last week. He had

not looked at the brain scans, the contemporaneous medical notes and he

had not read the judge's statement and he had not looked at the second

opinions from other world-renowned experts that Great Ormond Street

Hospital had gone to and they had examined Charlie. They say they are

concerned to hear that the professor stated in the witness box he retains

financial interest in some of the treatment compounds he proposed to

give Charlie. On July the 13th, when we had an MRI scan, the parents

realised the scans showed Charlie really was beyond help at that

point. The hospital says it gave no cause for optimism, it confirms that

while the treatment way -- the treatment may assist others in the

future, it cannot assist Charlie. The hospital are saying, we do not

know, about time. The American doctor is saying that had Charlie

been able to have the experimental therapy never tested on humans, he

may have got better. But he was never going to survive, but he may

have improved. But I think the hospital is saying, we will never

know that. That not clear. They say there is hope that those like the

professor who have provided opinions that have so sustained Charlie's

parents, their hopes, and thus, this protracted litigation with its many

consequences, will also find much upon which to reflect. I must say,

before I finished, we have not had a response yet from Michio Hirano.

Ben Brown is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

Builders could be banned from selling new houses as leasehold

properties in England under proposals put forward by the

Government today. It comes after it emerged some housing developers have

been selling the leasehold on to investment firms without always

telling homeowners, leading the extra costs or rising charges.

An official report into the use of joiner -- vaginal mesh for organ

prolapse. It has been screwed the tee described as a whitewash. The

report by NHS England has called for better reporting of problems and

increased knowledge sharing, but it has not recommended discontinuing

use of the mesh. described as a whitewash. The

Government says there has been a big rise in the number of people falling

victim to scams in recruitment. Some have demanded people use premium

rate phone lines. The joint industry and law enforcement organisation

reports that in the last two years, there has been a 300%

rise in recruitment related fraud and misconduct. UK animal worthwhile

standards could be threatened if farmers have to compete against

cheaper, less regulated rivals from outside the EU after Brexit. -- UK

animal welfare standards. That's the warning from a House

of Lords committee. It's urging the government to insist

on similar standards in any free trade agreements to avoid

what it calls a race to the A young man with autism has been

played around ?45,000 in damages by a private hospital and the police

after the way they treated him. He was pinned to the floor and to his

bed for 11 hours by nine members of staff at a private hospital in

Birmingham. He was sometimes so heavily medicated that he could

hardly speak or stand. A local authority investigation found there

had been serious and multiple failings in his care.

Justin Bieber says he is cancelling the rest of his world tour "due

He's been touring for the past 18 months, playing more

The final 15 performances were scheduled to be

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

Thank you very much. We will bring you the sport in just a moment. If

you are getting in touch, you are very welcome. Rugby Football League

union have made a controversial decision concerning the women's

game. Yes, they have. They have taken a decision which has raised a

lot of eyebrows. England will defend the World Cup title later next

month, but many of the squad will be left without contracts because the

RFU wants to switch attention from 15 aside the seventh with the

Commonwealth Games next year. That has led one MP to call it a kick in

the teeth that highlights the massive inequality in Britain. We

know on the mend's side, England players are well rewarded in both

15s and sevens. But RFU is the first union to award full or part-time

contracts, lots of criticism, especially the record revenues of

more than ?400 million last year, the RFU claim that change reflects

the cyclical nature of women's rugby, but does the money go far

enough? Those who are involved in 15s at the moment, at the elite end,

they will potentially have to look for further employment, so that is

where frustrations are coming. What is positive is there is funding and

support but it is not enough and going forward there needs to be

further investment, not just in rugby, but other sports, as we have

seen with England cricket. The changes are likely to make a

difference. England won the Six Nations seven years before they

focused on seventh ahead of Rio, that meant they went four years

without winning it. Since the money has been aimed at 15th, England won

the Six Nations this year. It seems to have a direct effect. Another

great day for swimmers in the World Championship Saint Budapest. The

world aquatics championships, they have given Great Britain fans much

to cheer over the weekend. We know all about Adam Peaty's qualities in

the 100 metres breast row, Olympic champion of course. He successfully

defended his world title in Budapest, narrowly missing out on

breaking his own world record. I can tell you he has done even better

this morning, broken the world record in the heats of the 50 metres

breaststroke, as he began the defence of his world title.

Fantastic moment for another swimmer. He called his gold medal

dream come true. He qualified fourth fastest. He managed to tape a

victory by just four hundredths of a second. Hopefully more British

success with several swimmers in action in finals later on. Which

former Formula 1 driver is making a comeback? He is hoping for a

comeback, it would be a fantastic story. Six, seven years ago, he was

regarded as one of the best driving talents in Formula 1, many predicted

he would be a future world champion, I was a big fan. 2011, it all

changed, life changing injuries in a rally driving accident. Despite

intensive treatment, he only regained limited movement of his arm

and he has not been in a Formula 1 race since, but that could change.

He will drive for Renault this year in a test in Hungary next week. His

former team have described it as a new phase. It would be a fairy tale

return for someone whose career ended so abruptly. He is said to be

confident he can perform with the new car on the tracks. We could see

him coming back to Formula 1 very soon. It would be an amazing

comeback. Thank you very much. This e-mail from a former Jehovah's

Witness, we will be talking to three people who used to be part of the

religion and when they left, they were effectively shunned by family

and friends. I am so pleased that the practice of this fellowship is

being aired on your programme because the full extent of the

shining needs to be exposed. I'm 60, I have just left. I have left

gradually. I followed advice from former X friends who have managed to

do the same. Many of my friends have distanced themselves and I have lost

the entirety of my deceased husband's family. I'm going to

meetings. When someone does it, they are completely shunned. You do not

have to wait, if a view is expressed that is not party line, people start

distancing themselves. You are viewed as a bad associate. The

controller is unbelievable. The practice has become too much part of

the culture that members do not realise what they are doing. This

sort of radicalisation. The Scriptures are twisted. I could go

on but I have to go to work! We will hear from three former Jehovah's

Witnesses after 10am this morning. Next this morning, a report

into the use of vaginal mesh implants out this morning,

has been described as a "whitewash", a "waste of time" and not worth

the paper it's written on. Mesh implants are designed

to help deal with bladder incontinence and pelvic organ

prolapse, often resulting In some cases the mesh erodes

or cuts through the vagina. Earlier this year we exclusively

revealed that up to 800 women are taking legal action

against the NHS and manufacturers of mesh after the simple procedure

left them with devastating problems - some are now registered disabled,

can't walk unaided, are wholly incontinent,

unable to have sex, unable to work Over the last five years, I've had

over 53 admissions. Because you're in pain. Because of pain. My husband

has turned into my career and he is so less of my husband. We can't have

sex. Wet haven't had sex for four-and-a-half years. It is a

divisive torture, please stop. I want the procedure banned. I want

the material banned. It has totally changed my life. I'm registered

disabled and I have no control over my bowel or my bladder. I have nerve

damage. I'm double incontinent. That's bowel and bladder. I have got

depression and never thought having a 40 minutes procedure twice would

be this devastating. I just didn't. Since our story in April we have

consistently requested interviews with the NHS,

Department of Health, and regulatory body

the MHRA and they have This morning, NHS England have

released a long awaited report They've turned down our

request for an interview. That report recommends

improving patient-doctor consultation before surgery,

getting women to specialist units if they experience poor outcomes

and improving the recording of surgery that goes

wrong by surgeons. Mesh safety campaigners say it's

a whitewash because it didn't look at whether mesh implants are safe

to be used in the first place. One campaigner says,

"They might as well park an ambulance at the bottom

of a cliff and wait They should have looked at product

safety, not at ways to fix women Despite this report coming from NHS

England, the report's author, Professor Keith Willett

turned down our request to Let's get reaction to it

from from Tracy Porton and Julie Gilsenan who have both

suffered severe complications and realised they weren't alone

after watching coverage of the issue Dr Sohier Elneil,

a consultant urogynecologist I'm going to ask you Tracey for your

reaction to the NHS England report? They're nice. They're very nice that

they want to deal with this, but why aren't they looking at the product?

They need to look at the product. My view of the mesh is that it's

dangerous. Every single story I've read and my own story isn't about

the surgery. The surgeon, the treatment, the after care or the

information. It's about the product. The product has caused injury and it

has been injuring people for more than ten years. It's known. We will

come back to your story in a moment. Let me get reaction from Julie. Hi,

Julie, what are your thoughts on the recommendations from this report

today? Well, again, like Tracey said there has been no looking into the

safety of the mesh. No product investigation and they are making

recommendations about surgeons reporting, but less than 40% of

surgeons report problems regarding the mesh. As someone who spends a

lot of time trying to remove mesh implants from women, how do you

react to this report? I don't think it's gone far enough. I think it

sort of touched a little bit on the surface. It has not touched on the

very start of this whole process. I mean the whole point of meshes was

to really the goal was to try and prevent recurrence of prolapse or

incontinentance. It hasn't achieved that and many women have got

problems with it, but also, there is so many aspects of it, not just in

prolapse and incontinence, but in other arenas in hernia, dental and

so on. The report is has glimpsed over some areas. It is true we are

lacking data. We are lacking information, but you know, it hasn't

really gone far enough and I think the integration of the women in the

report fully particularly the women who have suffered with these

problems isn't taken into account and that needs to be taken into

account. But know that, for most women, this procedure works and the

regulatory body has told us in common with other med device

regulators, we are not aware of a robust body of evidence which would

lead to the conclusion these devices are unsafe, if used as intended?

That's true, but equally the quoted problem or risk is supposed to be

between one and 2%. We know it exceeds that. And conservative

measures, consider it to be 15% and there are others who think it's even

higher than that. Yes, collecting data will be helpful to give us the

real picture, but in the end it is still a prosthetic material that is

being inserted into organs or tissues which are supposed to have

some degree of mobility and this product doesn't do that. It doesn't

allow mobility, although some people might argue that we are trying to

stop mobility altogether because that's the cause of the problem, but

equally, there are other measures you can use and there are other

surgical operations you can use and that needs to be considered. So, as

is surgeon you have a number of techniques and you need to be able

to offer those option to say every woman and actually explain the pros

and cons. NHS England say the report was never commissioned to look at

mesh as a product and whether it should be banned. It was only to

find better practise. Tracey, you contacted us. You had no idea that

there were other women who were suffering in the way you were, did

you? No, I had six lots of surgery. The last surgery was major surgery.

So I've had three different surgeons operate on me, not once have I ever

been told of complications. Or warned. So when you saw our coverage

how did you react? I cried more about two hours. My son told me it

was going to be on. And I watched it. And I cried and cried and cried.

And then I read horrific Tories, horrific stories. I'm lucky. I'm in

pain. I'm sat here in pain. Every day I'm in pain. I have mesh still

attached to my spine, but there is women that can't walk. There is

women that had their bowels removed and their pladers removed because

the mesh, the product has damaged them. That's what happened to me.

The product and part of the product is still in me. Because they could

only do a partial removal. Once it's in you, your tissue grows around it.

It shrinks and tears. I had two holes torn in my vagina, separate

operations to repair those. The last surgery saved my life because the

mesh started cutting into the wall of my bowel. So I had a bowel

surgeon on stand-by in case and actually they did find it was

cutting through the wall of my bowel, if I hadn't gone back to

hospital, I could have died like a lot of women and a lot of women

still don't know. I spoke to the taxi driver on the way here. His

mother had mesh. And she is in agony and what a small world. I could have

had any taxi driver and he went, "Oh my god, that's what my mum is going

through." ." How do you react and the evidence shows this that for

most women it works? I do not believe it. I am one person and I

found out in April from your show how many women didn't watch your

show? How many women haven't seen it in the media? How many women had

this procedure? The increase on the sling the mesh Facebook site, the

increase in membership just doubled overnight. And it will continue and

there will be more and more cases coming forward. More and more women

injured. This is an e-mail from Jill. She was one of the

representatives with the working group that are behind the report out

today from NHS England. Jill says, "I was one of several mesh injured

patient representatives with the working group. We called for

suspension of mesh three years ago and for a thorough investigation of

the mesh material and the blind way in which it is implanted. All this

fell on deaf ears and was ignored. Why? Why won't they look at the

product itself? It is scandalous. I and other patient reps resigned in

disgust." I'm not sure if that's the Scotland working group or the group

behind the NHS England report, it might be the Scotland one. Julie

tell our audience what happened to you? I had a mesh implant in

February this year. I was told it was going to be a simple fix

operation for a mild stress incontinence. I was told I would

just be a day case in and out and I was back to work within six weeks.

As a result of this surgery, my bladder was perforated during

surgery. I have to self Katherise. I have not nerve damage down my leg

and my surgeon is still saying this could be down to bruising through

the surgery. This is down to product safety. Your bladder was perforated

during the procedure by the person who was implanting the mesh, not the

mesh itself, is that correct? Yes. It was actually the trainee, there

was a certainlyingon's trainee who first did my surgery and he

perforated my bladder with the hooks. And the hooks are used to

bring the mesh into place. That is not the mesh product's fault then,

is it, would you agree? No, that's not the mesh product's fault. That

was down to my surgeon allowing a trainee possibly to perform my

surgery, but now that's resolved. I have still got all these issues with

this mesh and the mesh is causing these problems and I'm 100% certain

it is mesh and it is down to product safety and we need to get this

stopped, to stop anymore women suffering like I am, like trace

crisis is, like the thousands of women in our group are suffering.

Doctor, your experience of being involved in the group. So, I was, it

was really at the patients insistence that they asked me to

sit-in on the NHS England group which I was very happy to do. I sat

on the NICE procedures advisory committee. So I came in with that

hat as well and we were happy to participate, but I hadn't been in

touch with the group or haven't been part of the group, I think, for at

least 18 months because I haven't received any contact from them and I

think you are aware that some of the, in fact most of the patients on

that group were in a similar position. So, we haven't really been

part of the report at the end. We were not part of the discussion

before its release. And there are, I mean, as you've just heard from the

other two ladies, there are a lot of aspects, not just about the safety

concerns of the product, but also it is other impacts that is not always

dumbed such as the ought owe immune toxicity and so on. There are a lot

of issues with this product, not only with the way it is inserted and

put in, but what happens to the product once it is in the body

long-term. And certainly some of the women I looked after had those

problems. This message from Lisa on Facebook, "A 20 minute operation

referred to as the gold standard in procedures that is causing

debilitating consequences. I have had two mesh implants. TVT and

hernia. The hernia has given me consistent pain for 12 years. I have

been advised to have a full hysterectomy as the pain would then

be cured. It wasn't. I then had incontinence. At no point was it

called mesh. Now, I have two lots of this barbaric stuff inside me

causing me pain. Stop using it." Says Lisa. What do you want to

happen now, Tracey? I want the product investigated further. I am

aware that it's global. I know that. When I went to America a few months

ago, there were adverts by law firms saying have you been injured by

mesh? This problem is global. In the UK, they need to stop using the

mesh. They need to stop straightaway and look at alternative methods and

offer further investigation. Just, they are doing this procedure on a

basis. I was told I mightn't have had prolapse. Ten years ago, the

surgery may never needed to have happened. I could have had

physiotherapy to help with my minor prolapse. The only other thing I'd

like to say is an analogy and Kath and I were talking last night. I

said if you have a car with an electrical fire, the car

manufacturer will remove the product or recall the product. The

pharmaceutical companies that make this product have known for over ten

years that it causes complications and they haven't removed the

product. Thank you all very much for coming

on the programme. Your views are of course welcome and your own

experiences. In an exclusive interview,

the parents of an autistic man who was restrained by as many

as nine members of staff for 11 hours at a private hospital

in Birmingham tell us their son has They want an apology

from the hospital. Not just a victory in

cricket, but a momentous That's the verdict of some

of England's women's cricket team The parents of Charlie Gard say they

are preparing to spend their last precious moments with their

terminally ill son after deciding to end their legal battle to take the

US. Great Ormond Street Hospital said they recognised the agony,

desolation and bravery of the decision. They added, they would be

giving careful thought to what could be learnt from the case.

Builders could be banned from selling new houses as leasehold

properties in England - under proposals put forward

It comes after it emerged some housing developers have been selling

the leasehold on to investment firms - without always telling homeowners,

leading to extra costs or rising charges for them.

An official report into the use of vaginal mesh implants to treat

incontinence and organ prolapse has been described as a

Earlier this year, this programme revealed that hundreds of women

are living with chronic pain and complications after

The report by NHS England has called for better reporting of problems

and increased knowledge sharing, but has not recommended

The Government says there's been a big rise in the number of people

falling victim to scams linked to job recruitment.

Some fake recruiters ask for cash for non-existent security checks,

while others demand that people use premium rate phone lines.

Latest figures suggest that in the last two years there has been

a 300% rise in recruitment related fraud and misconduct.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

Thank you. And thank you for your e-mails, people who used to be

Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I left two and a half years ago. As a

result, my brother, mother, my own daughter, they shun me. It is the

cruellest practice. I am glad it is being exposed. I had to have

counselling to try to come to terms with losing my family. This e-mail

from someone who does not wish to leave their name, a former Jehovah's

Witness, I have no issue whatsoever, they have never shunned me. You get

disfellowship by doing suddenly against the religion. It is

ridiculous how people are making a bad name for them. Jackie says, my

mother was a Jehovah witness. It caused havoc, no Christmas, no

Easter. My father was a normal parent who intuit my mother's

horrendous ways. Myself and my two brothers find it very difficult at

Christmas and on our birthdays. It is a horrible so-called religion. We

will talk to three former Jehovah witnesses about being shunned after

ten. Now the sport. Good morning again.

It was a great evening in the pool on day two

of the World Aquatics Championships for Great Britain who won two golds.

Olympic champion Adam Peaty successfully defended his world 100m

breaststroke title in a new championship record.

He finished over a second ahead of his nearest rival.

GB's second gold was a bit more of a surprise but no less deserved

as Ben Proud took the 50m butterfly title.

He's already the Commonwealth champion over this distance,

but his best event, the 50m freestyle,

He competes in that at the end of the week.

The Rugby Football Union has been criticised after deciding not

to renew contracts for the England women's 15-aside team.

The Six Nations champions defend their world title

in Ireland next month, but the RFU has said

after the tournament, the focus will be shifted

to the sevens squad ahead of next year's Commonwealth Games.

And Manchester City have broken the world transfer record

for a defender by signing Monaco full back Benjamin Mendy

The France international has signed a five-year deal.

We will be back with more sport just after 10am. Thank you.

A young man with autism has been paid around 45 thousand pounds

in damages by a private hospital and the police after the way

they treated him while in their care led to him suffering

As a teenager, Adam Nasralla - who's now 23 - was pinned

to the floor and to his bed for 11 hours by nine members

of staff at Wast Hills, a private hospital in Birmingham

He was sometimes so heavily medicated that he could

After being arrested for assaulting staff, he was handcuffed,

restrained by a belt and forced to wear a spit hood whilst

Adam Nasralla's family fought for justice and an investigation

by the local authority found there had been serious

He's now living independently as he rebuilds his life

but his family are speaking to us exclusively in their

I started by asking Jill and Lawrence, Adam's mum and dad,

by asking them to explain how their son was treated -

firstly, at an NHS facility near their home, and later,

My son had never been restrained in his life. He was introduced to

restraint and seclusion. It was a facility that did not specialise in

autism. They used restrictive practices which he objected to. The

more they restricted him, the more he reacted, the more he challenged

them, they're more they restricted, a cycle. He went there for 28 days,

and was there for 15 months. When you talk about restraint, what do

you mean? Basically, having a boy like my son, six foot four, pinned

to the floor by nine, ten people. And that could last not minutes, the

day he was arrested, that lasted, if I recall correctly, 11 hours. And

that was actually at a different hospital, a private hospital in

Birmingham. 100 miles away. Where you transferred your son because

that was a place that specialised in looking after autistic people. That

is right. It was our belief, a naive belief, but it was our belief that,

for example, his medication would be reduced in the private hospital

because they had the specialism, alternative therapies to use. We

have since found out that after he left the hospital, actually, the

anti-psychotics medication had been tripled, it has the nickname of the

chemical straitjacket. It has horrific side-effects that are

long-lasting. For instance, it severely affected his speech. He has

to go like this when he eats now and he drags his leg behind him when he

walks. What do you think about the fact they tripled the medication for

your son? I was horrified. I only found out afterwards, I was not

consulted, it is something I felt very strongly about because of the

negative impact. I could see the negative impact, I could see his

speech dramatically deteriorate. When someone with autism has already

a communication disorder, for them not to be able to speak. My son had

wonderful handwriting, like a fine writer, he lost his ability to use

his fine motor skills. His communication was hindered, not

helped. You referred to the day your son was arrested, this is when

things dramatically escalated. Before his arrest, what happened

with his autistic diagnosis? They removed it. What does that mean? The

psychiatrist in this sort facility -- this facility said he was not

autistic. On that basis -- on what basis, we do not know. We think the

reason was so he could be arrested by the police and then he would be

responsible for his actions. The Serious Case Review found that

finding, referred the psychiatrist to the GMC... The General Medical

Council. We thought we would be consulted by the GMC, give our

thoughts, but we found three, four months later, that Doctor had no

case to answer. Bearing in mind that Doctor had removed somebody asked's

diagnosis. I want to bring in your lawyer at this point. From a legal

perspective, give me your view on the psychiatrist removing someone's

diagnosis and later on the same day them being arrested by the police.

The first thing to say, I am not a doctor, but I do think it is at best

questionable the decision to remove a long-standing diagnosis of autism

and it seems to me that is something that should be done very carefully

and through careful consultation, perhaps with the family. So, I think

it gives rise to very serious concerns and Adam's arrest was

absolutely horrific experience and one that anybody would find

extremely upsetting, let alone a man with so many complex needs that in

fact could be met and have been met since his discharge from hospital.

But the decision to arrest him in the circumstances was extraordinary.

I want to ask you about the arrest. If our audience a little insight

into what happened that day. We have since found out he was handcuffed,

spit hooded, placed in a restraint belt, both around his legs and

around his middle, was that right, Nancy? He was obviously taken in the

police van alone. For us, as his parents, to think he was in a police

cell, miles from our family home and we could do nothing about it, it was

horrific. We tried our best, made numerous phone calls... We are

showing our audience a demonstration of a spit hooded being put on

somebody, it is not Adam, just so the audience understand. He also was

physically restrained by the police. It must have been absolutely... We

cannot even begin to imagine how terrifying it was for him. We were

completely helpless. Nothing we could do. In fairness to the police,

they quickly assessed that Adam should not be detained, but because

his diagnosis had been removed, both of learning difficulties and of

autism, they struggled to find an alternative placement, so he ended

up in the police cell for eight hours before being returned back to

Wast Hills Hospital. I want to go back to the restraint that you

referred to earlier, up to nine people, holding your son down on the

floor for up to 11 hours on one occasion. Can you describe what that

would look like? I couldn't even think about it, Victoria. I

couldn't, honestly, bring myself to think in this 6-foot four lad, a big

lad, to be held for that length of time or anybody... Even though at

some points his behaviour had been challenging towards staff? Our

argument is, he never needed restraining in 18 years before he

went into mental health institutions. Since he has left that

particular provision, he has not needed restraint in three and a half

years. Why was it necessary then? What is your theory? My theory was

he was not treated properly, they had no understanding of his autism

and no understanding of how to manage the behaviour. Which is

astonishing because Wast Hills Hospital is a specialist autistic

facility. So they call themselves. So they say. Your son has since been

diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of some of the

treatment he received. Yes, he has. We were very fortunate in that we

had employed an independent social worker who was monitoring the

placement at Wast Hills Hospital. Incidentally, he was banned after

visiting Adam every two weeks for six months when he raised concerns

with the local authorities about lengthy floor restraint and he

actually sourced this new placement, Recovery First, and he arrived by

secure ambulance without his comfort items. He loves Thomas the Tank

Engine and nursery rhymes, they make him feel safe. He arrived there

without those items which for somebody with autism is a horrific

experience. He was taken on to the ward by up to seven security staff

wearing a spit hooded and the ward staff on that day wept that a fellow

human being would be treated in such a way. But within three weeks of him

being there, his medication had been reduced by two thirds. He was

starting to flourish again. There was no special formula, they just

understood autism, understood the trauma, worked with the family, and

occasionally, they were humble enough to ask themselves, how must

it feel for him? And things got better. We had a wonderful

psychiatrist who reinstated his diagnosis placing him on the severe

end of the spectrum, no at all. And gradually, things got better. He

started to be out and about. Community access. Swimming in the

sea. Going to the airport. All of the things he loves, his special

interests were indulged. It can be done? It can be done. We had lots of

home leave and gradually things got better.

There was a Serious Case Review. That yes. That recognised there were

a number of failings across a number of agencies. You have received

around ?45,000 in damages which is paid now to people to look after

Adam. Do you want an apology? That's the thing that I most definitely

want. The hospital's position has been from the beginning to defend

the indefendable and remains that to this day. If I had of had an apology

from the beginning I wouldn't have fought for the Serious Case Review.

It's the injustice that you can't live with. How can we, we are always

told lessons have been learnt. How can we accept that lessons have been

learnt when there is no acknowledgement that they have

happened in the first place? I have got a statement from West Mercia

Police. "West Mercia Police has made a full

and final settlement in relation to an incident that took

place on 3rd March 2014 Every day our officers and staff

have to make quick time decisions in difficult and challenging

circumstances in order to protect "The health of welfare of both

the people we support and our staff We co-operated in an open

and transparent way with the serious case review

and all its recommendations This was acknowledged

by the Care Quality Commission in its latest inspection report

which gave the hospital an "outstanding" rating we are very

proud of and is a true reflection of the hard work,

commitment and quality You can read more about the Tory on

the BBC News site on the BBC website right now.

Charlie Gard's parents are spending the final few days with their son.

Lawyers say the couple want to spend the maximum amount of time they have

left with Charlie. Yesterday he thenneded the case after a US doctor

told them it was too late to treat Charlie's rare genetic condition.

All we wanted to do with take Charlie from one really renowned

hospital to another well renowned in the attempt to save his life and to

be treated by the world leader in mitochondrial disease. We have to

live with the what ifs which will haunt us for the rest of our lives.

Despite the way our beautiful son has been spoken about sometimes as

if he is not worthy of the chance of livment our son is a warrior and we

will miss him terribly. His body and heart and soul may soon be gone, but

his spirit will live on for eternity and he will make a difference to

people's lives for years to come, we will make sure of that. We will

spend our last precious moments with our son Charlie who unfortunately

won't make his first birthday in just under two weeks' time. To

Charlie, mummy and daddy love you so much. We always have and we always

will and we are so sorry that we couldn't save you. Sweet dreams,

baby. Sleep tight, our beautiful little boy, we love you. Great

Ormond Street Hospital haven't said when his life support will end. He

is not expected to reach his first birthday on 1st August. His parents

have battled for months and have had Donald Trump and the Pope intervene.

We have spoken to Charlie Gard's parents several times on the

programme. We want to do this for Charlie, obviously. He always has

been and always will be our number one priority. If anyone in the

future is born with this disease we want something that can help this.

We want to find a treatment and a cure for mitochondrial disease. We

want parents taken into the side room and said we have got something

for you. We don't want the devastating news of, "There is

nothing wk do." Let's talk to

Catherine Glenn Foster. She's director of American's United

for Life who have campaigned for Charlie to have experimental

treatment. She has been in touch with Connie

and Chris since they decided Also Professor Rob George,

Medical Director at St Christopher's Hospice

in South London and a professor of palliative care at

King's College London. And Emma Nottingham,

a lecturer in child law at the University of Winchester

and a member of the Institute of Welcome all of you. Catherine, what

have the parents said to you? What have you said to the parents? Well,

as you can imagine they are just devastated at the loss of their son.

They have been given information that had he received treatment

several months ago then he might have had a chance, but that in these

intervening months his muscle tissue has got to the point where this

cutting edge treatment can do no good. It would be ineffective

apparently. And so, and so we do know that they're doing everything

they can for their son. Spending the last precious moments with them, but

they're heartbroken. I wonder Emma and professor Rob George what your

view is of the parents' belief that had things been done a little

earlier then this experimental treatment may have had some impact

on Charlie? Well, I think that from my point of view my impression is

that Emma and, that Charlie's parents believe that somehow he

could have been restored to full health and it seems to me that the

evidence is that whatever treatment is available would have had a

marginal benefit and I think that is extremely distressing for them to

have to face the prospect there is no treatment available, but us on

the on the other hand, from medicine's point of view, trying to

balance the inevitable con qens of treatments that may not work, with

the marginal benefits that they may offer. Emma Nottingham? It's very

difficult in these types of cases because you've got to weigh up the

benefits against the burdens on the child so, it's going to go to be

very difficult for parents to come to terms with the fact that there

might have been some marginal benefit and that would have been

worth pursuing, but in these types of cases you have to weigh that up

against the burdens and if it's going to be a very heavy burden on

the child then it is less likely that's going to be allowed to

happen. Catherine, how do you react to what we heard in the Supreme

Court yesterday? Evidence from the Great Ormond street Hospital that

the American doctor had a financial interest and was effectively

offering the parents false hope in a damning statement, but

diplomatically worded. The hospital said that the doctor who provided

the opinions that have sustained Charlie's hopes, and this protracted

litigation will find much upon which to reflect? It was not only the

doctor, but a team of specialists who advocated for the cutting edge

treatment. None of whom had examined Charlie or looked at scans or his

medical notes despite an invitation back in January from Great Ormond

street Hospital? Well, Connie and Chris did request the transfer. They

didn't want to pursue the treatment there. They wanted Charlie to be

transferred to New York and in the meantime the doctor has personally

examined Charlie, has examined his full medical records and this

treatment is an oral treatment that would have been given through milk,

it's medically shown that there would be no significant side-effects

or risk of causing pain or suffering with this treatment. It is a three

month regiment in the course of these court actions could have been

completed more than twice over. Professor Rob George, how do you

react to that? Well, I think, my principle concern is what Emma was

raising and that is the relative burdens and benefits of treatments.

As far as I understand it and I don't have the technical details, is

that were there any chance of benefit to be accrued from a

treatment such as this, there is no doubt in my mind that it would have

been offered by Great Ormond street and every step would have been taken

to make that possible. But it is very clear, it seems to me, that the

likelihood of any benefit, it was so marginal and the burden on Charlie

of continuing to be supported in the way that he has, and the potential

harms that come from the treatments, made that something that was not

really defenceable from medicine's point of view and we have to

remember that those of us in medicine have a duty to our patients

not to cause harm and that's our over arching priority. Now, various

people would say, "Aye, yes, but the harm is that he never got the

treatment." But where this treatment feasible and viable, it would have

been offered to him. It would have been given to him by Great Ormond

Street, of that, I have no doubt. Emma, a final thought from you.

Great Ormond street say they will reflect on the words of the judge

where he expressed that were his view heeded mediation would be

compulsionry. So to avoid future court battles, parents and hospitals

in any similar dispute in the future should not end up in court? Yes,

this case has given us an opportunity to now reflect on how

these types of cases are dealt with and whether it's possible that we

can do better or improve the process for all involved. So, one idea is

that that this is done through mediation to try and have more

communication and improve maybe some of the things that didn't go well in

the Charlie Gard case. It's difficult to know whether that will

be beneficial because ultimately we are going to sometimes have these

cases where the parents and the doctors just can't decide and I

think with Charlie Gard's parents and Great Ormond street Hospital,

even if they had mediated and debated this extensively, it was

very clear that they weren't going to reach an agreement. So, if we

have some kind of mediation process, we might still inevitably need the

courts because if cases do get that tough then we still need a judge to

make that final decision where we can't make an agreement. Thank you

all. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Thank you. The

latest news and sport shortly. Before that, the weather and here is

Carol. Good morning. Temperatures picking

up nicely in the sunshine and we certainly do have sunshine. This

lovely picture sent in by one of our Weather Watchers earlier of the Isle

of Wight. But we also started on a grey note across the east again. An

earlier picture from Twickenham. The cloud in the east is starting to

break. You can see in the satellite picture where we have got the cloud.

Where the holes are and also where we have got the sunshine.

Temperatures already 19 Celsius across parts of Wales, south-west

England, heading over towards swannage and Bournemouth and this is

where we are likely to see the highest temperatures through the

day. Through the day we lose any drizzle from the cloud. The cloud

breaks up and the sun comes out and it won't feel as cool alongside the

North Sea Coast line as it did yesterday because the wind is not

strong. We will see showers which could be sharp across the Highlands,

but most of Scotland dry. Northern England again largely dry with

sunshine. The Midlands dry with sunny spells. The same for East

Anglia and Essex and Kent and temperatures 22 and maybe 23 or 24

around the London area. Across Hampshire into Dorset, a lot of dry

weather. Across south-west England, although there will be a lot of dry

and sunny weather around, you could catch a shower as indeed you could

across Wales. If you do, they could be sharp, but once again, they will

be hit and miss and many of them will miss them. We have had low

cloud around this morning over Northern Ireland. That's breaking

and again, we are looking at sunny skies coming through. Through the

evening and overnight, many of the showers will fade. It's going to be

dry more for most of us, but we have got this line of rain and wind

coming in from the west. Temperatures not too dissimilar to

the night just gone. That's courtesy of this area of low pressure with

its fronts bringing the rain from the west to the east. As you can

tell by the squeeze on the isobars, it will be a windy day. So heavy

rain to start with across Northern Ireland and northern England and the

north-west and Scotlandment further south, the rain will be with us and

it won't be as heavy, but it will be a blustery day, and as the rain

pushes off into the North Sea, behind it it will brighten up with

sunshine and showers, but we will hang on to more cloud across most of

England and again there will be patchy light rain coming out of

that. Highs tomorrow up to 21 Celsius. Through the evening though,

we lose the set of fronts. They push off to the near continent, dragging

the low pressure to the centre of the south-west. It will brood deuce

rain and again, some windy conditions in the north-west. So to

put pictures on that, a lot of dry weather to start the day. Then we

have got the rain across parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland.

Showers across England and Wales and fairly blustery with highs up to 20

or 22 Celsius. Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10

o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. The parents of terminally-ill

Charlie Gard are spending their last precious

moments with their son. They have ended their legal fight

to take him to the US for treatment after a US doctor told them

it is too late to treat To Charlie, we say, mummy and daddy,

we love you so much. We always have and we always will and we are so

sorry we couldn't save you. We'll hear from some former

Jehovah's Witnesses who say leaving their faith has left

them isolated, shunned by friends and family

and even feeling suicidal. It is very sad. I have got several

brothers and sisters, for instance, who I was quite close to. From the

day of my leaving, I have not spoke to them at all.

You can hear that full interview shortly.

Not just a victory in cricket, but a momentous

That's the verdict of some of the England's women's cricket

team who won the World Cup on Sunday.

Now to the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

The parents of Charlie Gard so they are preparing to spend their last

precious moments with their son after deciding to end their legal

battle to take in the US for treatment. Great Ormond Street

Hospital where Charlie is on life support said they recognised the

agony, desolation and bravery of the decision. The hospital added, they

would be giving careful thought to what could be learned from the case.

Builders could be banned from selling new homes as leasehold

properties in England under proposals put forward

It comes after it emerged some housing developers have been selling

the leasehold on to investment firms without always telling

homeowners, leading to extra costs or rising charges.

And Victoria will be speaking to campaigners and representatives

from the building industry a little later in this programme.

An official report into the use of vaginal mesh implants to treat

incontinence and organ prolapse has been described as a

Earlier this year, this programme revealed that hundreds of women

are living with chronic pain and complications after

The report by NHS England has called for better reporting of problems

and increased knowledge sharing, but it has not recommended

Some breaking news. The number of fatal police shooting fund that's

after police pursuits in England and Wales rose significantly last year

according to the latest figures. The IPCC found there were six fatal

police shooting in 2016-17, the highest for 12 years. 32 people died

after police road incidents, the highest total for eight years, 28 of

which were from pursuits. A young man with autism has been

paid around ?45,000 in damages Adam Nasralla was pinned

to the floor and to his bed for 11 hours by nine members of staff

at a private hospital in Birmingham. He was sometimes so heavily

medicated that he could A local authority investigation

found there had been serious That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30. We will bring you an interview with

Jehovah's Witnesses soon. Luke says, I am writing some of the things I

have heard regarding your section on disfellowships. I am a former

Jehovah's Witness who left when I was 18 as I no longer believed in

the main elements of the religion. I was not baptised, I was not

disfellowshipped. I have never been shunned. I feel sometimes Jehovah's

Witnesses get bashed in the media because it is a religion people do

not understand and they only know as the people who knock on doors and do

not celebrate Christmas and birthdays. There are some aspects I

do not agree with, but it is no worse than other religions. It is

nice to see people talking about Jehovah's Witnesses, but it seems it

is only talked about in a bad light. Chris, I am an ex-Jehovah witness, I

used to see my son a couple of years ago until they released a talk any

association outside of the religion was to be stopped immediately. My

son took his GCSEs this year, I will never know what his grades were.

This is an evil practice from a hypocritical organisation. That

interview to come after the sport. It was a great evening in the pool

for Great Britain on day two of the World Aquatics Championships

in Hungary, as they As expected, Olympic champion

Adam Peaty successfully defended his 100m breaststroke

title, just missing out He now holds the top ten times

in the world for this distance, finishing over a second ahead

of his nearest rival. And in the last hour, Peaty has

sliced more than three-tenths of a second off his own

50m breaststroke world He'll go in the semifinals

later on this evening. GB's second gold went

to Commonwealth champion Ben Proud This isn't even his favoured event -

that's the 50 metres freestyle - which he competes in at the end

of the week. The gold medal was a bit

of a surprise...and for no one Winning has not been on my mind and

that is really help. Maybe getting a medal would be nice, but... Left

speechless. There's been criticism of the RFU's

decision not to renew contracts for the England

women's fifteen-a-side team. The world champions defend

their title in Ireland next month, but afterwards the RFU will shift

focus to the sevens squad ahead The RFU say several players will be

offered sevens contracts. Those involved in 15 's rugby at the

moment, at the elite end, they will potentially have to look for further

employment could sustain their ability to be an athlete, said that

is where the frustrations are coming from. What is positive there is

funding and support but it is not enough. Going forward, there needs

to be further investment, not just in rugby, but in other sports, as we

have seen with England cricket. Manchester City have broken

the world transfer record for a defender by signing Monaco

full back Benjamin Mendy The France international has

signed a five-year deal. After the signings of Kyle Walker

and Daneelo, City have spent almost ?130 million

on fullbacks this summer. And former Manchester United forward

Javier Hernandez has signed for West Ham from Bayer

Leverkhusen for ?16 million. He's Mexico's leading goalscorer

and becomes the fourth signing Six years after partially

severing his arm in a rally crash, Robert Kubica's hopes of returning

to Formula 1 will move a step closer next week when he tests

a current Renault car in Hungary. He has already done two tests

in a 2012 car and claims his physical limitations don't

affect his driving. The official two-day test will allow

Renault to compare his performance That is all the sport for now. Back

with more later on. Good morning. Next this morning, former

Jehovah's Witnesses tell this programme how leaving their faith

has left them isolated, shunned from friends and family

and even feeling suicidal. Jehovah's Witnesses are members

of a Christian-based There are about 6.9 million active

Witnesses in the world Members reject the sinful values

of the secular world and try to maintain a degree

of separation from non-believers. They don't celebrate

Christmas or Easter, discourage university

education and don't vote. A viewer emailed us to say her son

has refused to speak to her or let her see her grandchildren

since she decided to stop being She asked us to look

into the practice of shunning whereby people are ignored

by their family and people in their former congregation

when they choose to leave the faith. Speaking publicly for

the first time together, three former Jehovah's Witnesses

have given us a rare insight into what happens when you stop

believing in the religion. One of them is Terri O'Sullivan

who stopped being a Jehovah's Sarah and John left much

more recently and we've These are not their real

names and John's words Give us a little bit of an insight

into what it was like growing up as a Jehovah's Witness,

Sarah. I was what was classed

as a third-generation Jehovah's Witness, so my

grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses, my parents

were Jehovah's Witnesses, I was limited in my social groups,

I wasn't allowed to associate Even then, as I got older,

be it living under my parents' roof or with my husband,

I wasn't allowed to associate with work friends

outside of work, either. Right, so anyone who wasn't

a Jehovah's Witness, effectively, you weren't supposed to be friends

with or associate with? They believed that

bad associations... Well, the scripture they use is, bad

associations spoil useful habits. So, anybody outside

of the Jehovah's Witness religion That is, friends and even family

that aren't Jehovah's Witnesses that have maybe perhaps not converted

at the same time, you're not supposed to have anything

to do with them, either. What insight would you give

our audience in terms of living your life as a Jehovah's

Witness? What could you do and

what couldn't you do? Well, there was nothing

like birthdays or Christmasses, any of that kind of normal

celebrations that They were strictly taboo,

and that kind of subjected you to a fair bit of jeering

and laughing at school. And then the kids would

always say things like, what are you waiting for -

Christmas? Like Sarah, I didn't

have many friends. I did have a couple

of friends within school, but association with them was very

limited, certainly outside. So, most of my friends

were Jehovah's Witnesses, which kind of makes you grow up

in a very insular environment, where the only thing you are ever

subjected to is other Witnesses and other kind of

Witnesses' beliefs. And in terms of going to school,

obviously, you went to school. What about higher education -

A-levels, university, etc? I got really good GCSE

results at school. I had the opportunity

to go to university. They encourage you

to live a simple... So, a higher qualification

is classed as being materialistic. I was encouraged at 16 to get

an admin job and pioneer, which is doing a set amount of hours

for the Witnesses, I was really discouraged from doing

anything, even my A-levels. It was something that I felt very

frustrated about, because... Actually, my dad was quite

progressive in that he did encourage me to get an education,

but the cultural environment of the Witnesses was

stronger than he was. I went to school

till I was 16, yeah. And then, as a lot of young

Witnesses do, I had to start window cleaning, and did that

for seven years. So, I missed out on the opportunity

to go to university, What insight would you give, Terry,

in terms of being brought up Yeah, so, it's a very busy life

being a Jehovah's Witness. Certainly when I was a witness,

there were three meetings a week. John, you'd been having doubts

about being a Jehovah's Witness for many years -

what sort of doubts? They were very creeping

doubts, little things. I had a lot of questions about some

of the teachings that Witnesses believe in,

such as their belief Yeah, the Witnesses believe that

only a very small amount of people will go to heaven,

and the rest of people that survive through Armageddon will go

on to live on earth for ever, and they take a scripture

from Revelations to believe that the number that will go

to heaven will be limited But my own personal

reading of the Bible, I... And also, a lot of the Scriptures I

would read would kind of indicate that that heavenly life

wasn't for everybody. And did you voice those

doubts to other members? Not massively.

A little bit. I would talk, mostly

to my wife about it, Progressively, I would do more

and more Bible-reading myself, They tend to read a scripture

and marry it up with another scripture, but I would read

the whole chapter, or several chapters, and think, actually,

this doesn't seem to be saying What did you fear would happen

if you stopped being Well, I didn't really

know what else to go to. It's quite a frightening thought

to believe that what you've been brought up with from a kid,

and you completely believe, might not be true, so you tend

to kind of mentally block it out. A friend of yours, I think,

John, who was also How did that influence how you felt

about your religion? By that time, I was already more

convinced that what the Witnesses taught wasn't true, or not

all of it, anyway. And then he needed a blood

transfusion, and he got very ill. It took him a couple

of weeks and he died, And then your religion, just

to explain, your religion says that Yes, they use a scripture in Acts

chapter 15 which says to keep Again, reading through the chapter,

I couldn't see any particularly good reason why that should mean someone

should have to lay their life down. Again, on that subject,

Jehovah's Witnesses in Britain told us, "When we have health problems,

we go to doctors who have skill in providing medical

and surgical care without blood. Surgeons regularly perform

such complex procedures as heart operations,

orthopaedic surgery and organ transplants without the use

of blood transfusions". You were disfellowshipped -

explain what that means. Previously, they would come around

to my house and they would say, Why don't you like going

to the meetings any more? We would discuss it in points,

but then I had a call one day, and they asked me to come

to the hall where they worship to have what they call

a judicial committee, which is essentially three elders

and at least two witnesses to your alleged crime,

and they said it was to discuss Well, by that time, I was pretty

much convinced that the Witnesses weren't the right religion

to inform me, so I said, I really don't recognise your

authority, and so they went ahead and had this judicial committee

in my absence, and I had a phone call to say that I had been

disfellowshipped and I had one It essentially means everybody

you know within the Witness organisation, all your friends,

or your family, from that point onwards, they make an announcement

in the Kingdom Hall, is from that point not allowed

to speak to you at all. That has happened, yeah.

I mean, it's very sad, you know. I've got several brothers

and sisters, for instance, whom I was quite close to,

and from the day of my disfellowship, I haven't

spoken to them at all. Sometimes I send them a message

saying, I love you, thinking of you, I did actually get a message

from my brother saying, yeah, I love you too,

but that's the strength of it. And Sarah, this has

happened to you, too. Much like John, I will try

and send the occasional I actually get married

in a couple of years' time, and having to plan a wedding

where your parents won't attend, where I will actually have no family

on my side as I walk down the aisle because of a religious belief,

because I left the religion on the basis of my own safety,

but because they classed it as being wrong in the Bible,

I would class myself as an orphan, Teri, how do your experiences of 17

years ago compare to what John and Sarah have described more

recently, of being shunned? I mean I wasn't actually

disfellowshipped like they were, so I managed to leave

without getting, er... As far as they were aware,

breaking any of their rules so I didn't have a judicial

committee and I moved away as well. But the thing is, they still shun

you anyway so officially they don't So what would happen

if I was in the town where I grew up and I saw a Witness,

they would cross the street. This is people you grew up

with as a child, you've been on holiday with them,

these were your best friends. Like I said, we didn't have friends

outside the religion so you would be seeing them every week and spend

time around their house, they would be at your house,

that sort of thing. I'm sure you guys have had that

experience plenty of times as well. It's just a very common

experience for ex-Witnesses. Yes, so obviously, like,

one of my sisters who is still in the religion,

I have no contact with her and she has two children who,

one's just leaving school and one I guess is at high school now,

and I don't know them. I also don't know my sister

because she was disfellowshipped And for five years,

when she was trying to get reinstated she would sit at the back

of the Kingdom Hall. So when they want to come back

to the religion they have to sit at the back of the Kingdom

Hall for each meeting, And that went on for

sort of five years. And yes, so that was

all of my childhood, and then when she got

reinstated I left, so I don't I don't know what kind

of food she likes. I don't know

what she does at the weekend, you know, I don't know

what she does for fun. It's knowing that you have a sister

that you don't know Sarah, did you know that

you would be shunned, effectively, if you didn't submit

to the way your husband Yes, but you have a hope, I suppose,

that your family would still love That was a driving point that

made me stay probably because I was terrified

I had no support network And I knew if I left,

I would have nobody. So it was what was the

lesser of two evils. And when you did leave,

when you were shunned, I went from bed to bed at friends'

houses from work that I had not known two minutes,

and these people rally round me, these people that I'd been told

were awful and a bad association and God was going to smite

them all at Armageddon. And yet these people

opened up their homes. All of my colleagues

in my office at the time, I stayed there and everybody made

sure I was all right and I was safe. Because you wouldn't have friends

or a support network outside the religion

either, would you? I mean, immediately

after the disfellowshipping, I was still within my family

home for, er... It turned out that my wife was one

of the Witnesses in the judicial committee, that put a huge

strain on our relationship For a while I lived in a tent

and then I lived in a caravan. It was kind of on my own doing

because I chose to leave but I just felt I couldn't stay in that

environment any more. That summer was probably

the hardest time of my life. I didn't have anybody at all.

I felt quite suicidal to be honest. I have a fantastic support network

of people that really care about me and really give me everything

I need. How do you reflect, Sarah,

on your life as a Jehovah's I won't sit here and say

it was all bad because you find good people and bad people everywhere,

and there are good people in the religion that genuinely think

that they are saving people's life and that they are doing

the right thing. But I look back and I think,

who could have I been? Where could I have gone if I had had

the opportunities that What type of person

would I have been? I mean I'm more than trying to make

up for it now with Christmas and birthdays and things like that,

but I look back with some happy memories because they were the last

memories I had with my family But then I do have to look back

and feel a lot of heartbreak that I'm never going to really ever be

able to sit down for a Sunday meal with them again, or when they die

I probably won't be invited They are decent people and this

was one of the things that made it so hard to distance myself from them

because, you know, they're moral, they are

generally very moral people. They have high standards,

and if the whole world was Jehovah's Witnesses

there would probably be But it comes at a big cost

of personal freedom. We'd like to add that those

allegations against Sarah's former In a statement, the religious group

told us, "If a baptised Witness makes a practice of breaking

the Bible's moral code, and does not give evidence

of stopping the practice, he or she will be shunned

or disfellowshipped. When it comes to shunning,

Witnesses take their instructions from the Bible and on this subject

the Bible clearly states, "Remove the wicked man

from amongst yourselves". Myles says Joe hoe vas witnesses

don't disfellowship for someone not attending a memorial service. They

provide support for one that is need help. Separation is a personal

choice and attending the memorial is a personal choice. Please check your

facts before publishing lies. Can I suggest a full apology and an

article which shows how loving and valuable to the community this group

is? You can find plenty of material on JW dot org. Another viewer says,

"We grew up scared. Scared of doing normal things like having friends

and listening to music, dancing, having boyfriends and going to

university, in case God joined us and would murder us at the end of

the world. My parents actively shunned my disfellowship sister. My

sister nearly died as a child as she was refused a blood transfusion when

very ill. We have suffered the grief of losing our parents whilst they

are still alive. We have struggled in adulthood to find careers and

friendships as all of these things were considered worldly. It took

years of counselling and bravery to come out of the cult and make a

normal life. I'm so glad someone is talking about this." One more for

now and there have been many. Sue says, "I'm glad you're discussing

this. I was brought up in the faith and it is the most ostracising

religion. I would never go into Assembly all my school life. I would

have to stand outside the hall. Aprart in the new No Christmas,

birthday and harvest festival, none of which I could join in. I would

lie to other children. I tried to explain to my mum how it affected

me. She really does not understand or maybe doesn't want to as she

still believes in this faith. By the way, we decided to look into

this issue after the viewer e-mailed us.

If you've got a story you'd like us to look at,

The Equal Pay Act came into force in 1970.

But nearly five decades on, we're still talking

In her first speech as Prime Minister a year

ago, Theresa May spoke of the burning injustice that

if you're a woman, you will earn less than a man.

The debate was reignited last week when the BBC published the salaries

of on-air men and women earning more than ?150,000.

It showed in some cases there was a pay gap between what men

Meanwhile, under new laws, all businesses with more than 250

employees have until next April to publish the salaries

So, let's speak to some women affected by the gender pay gap.

We can speak now to Lynn Knapp, a primary school head teacher.

Among leaders of educational institutions, there

Bridgett Bartlett is a senior female figure in the construction sector,

and a Chartered Institute of Building Department

The construction industry has the biggest pay gap

of all sectors, according the Office for National Statistics.

There is a 45% pay gap among construction and building

Gudrun Ravetz, works day to day as a vet,

and is also president of the British Vetinery Association.

The veterinary profession is one of the few

where women are on average paid 8% more than men.

And Kiran Dhurka, who is an employment law specialist

She's fought numerous cases where women have been paid less

Bridgett starting with the construction sector, massive

disparity, 45%, why? It is a really serious issue, five decades on, we

should not be here. It depends where you are in the construction

industry. As a chartered professional, there will be 2%...

Should you be grateful? We deserve equal pay and we have done for the

last five decades. I was coming at age in the 70s, I thought,

everything is going to be all right. Now nearing retirement, the same

discriminate who practices exist. However, it is cleared the

construction industry is gradually improving, particularly in the last

ten years, average pay has increased from 24,000 to just under 40,000.

Women are seeing a 6% pay increase year on year. But it is not good

enough. Men are often the first to get promotion. Women complain about

being overlooked. It is a serious issue. Is it meant hiring people who

look like them and giving them better salaries? Is it as simple as

that? Not quite as simple. The industry appreciates it has a huge

skills problem, it needs to recruit more women. It is predicted that by

2020, to fill the gaps, we will need to have 12 to 5% of the industry --

25% of the industry being women. It does not explain the plain clap. But

it does make it easier to fix. It is encouraging that companies with more

than 250 staff have to publish, but our industry is fragmented, lots of

subcontractors with a small number of employees. I would encourage the

Government to get people in our industry particularly anywhere where

there is more than a 10% gender pay gap to actually publish because only

by having better transparency, as we have had last week courtesy of the

BBC's revelations, will we actually address this issue and I have been

waiting for it to be addressed for 40 years. I do not want to wait any

longer. Lynn, in terms of senior professionals in education,

headteachers like yourself, 61% of the workforce is female, but men in

the top roles get on average 20% more pay than someone like yourself.

Why? I think men get promoted more quickly, particularly in primary

schools, men are quite rare. People like to have a man in school,

particularly when it is a primary school. Governors appoint teachers

and headteachers and I think you will often hear in school, wouldn't

it be great to have a man on the staff? It does not explain why they

get paid more. Because the way the system works, you can choose where

their headteacher goes on the pay scale. If you have a pay scale in

the school and a man is put at a higher grade than a female member of

staff, you start to get the disparity. They become like gold

dust. It is supply and demand. It is, particularly in primary schools.

But it does not justify it. No, we do the same role. I know

headteachers managing smaller schools getting paid more because

they are a male in a primary profession where they are clearly

like gold dust. Let us talk about the veterinary profession because it

is unusual in that women on average are paid about 8% more than men.

That is also unfair. It is a really interesting figure because when we

look at the benchmark surveys for the profession, pulled from a

similar number as for the Office for National Statistics, it shows a

different figure. A contrary view. What does your research show? Her

our women are paid 16% less than men, it is true for full-time

figures as well. The reason it is coming through is there are many

more men in senior positions, as we have heard, in headteachers, and

although we have a great number of women in the profession, a lot more

men in senior positions, often business owners, directors, they

would not come into these figures because they would not be coming

through the PAYE and they are earning more and we know male

graduates often earn more sooner after qualification than female

graduates in the veterinary profession. The figure shows an

indifferent, probably similar to what you have been saying. What has

to be addressed in your particular profession to make sure there is

equal pay for doing the same job? Listening to everybody, it is

society. We have not got the silver bullet. As a profession, we are

running a project that is looking into this area of why it is

happening, what is happening with the graduates and white are their

pay disparities. We do not have as many men in the profession as women

and they are doing an incredibly valuable job, the same job, as

highly qualified. But having the answer, there are theories and we

need to see if they applied to the veterinary profession. We know women

are not reaching the senior levels in the same way so that is

increasing the pay disparity, but we do not know why it is happening and

that is why we are looking into this. In terms of you acting on

behalf of women who have discovered they are doing the same work as men

but being paid less, Kiran, you will have heard the argument, no one does

exactly the same job. Is it possible to prove you do? Yeah, women prove

it every day and get findings in employment tribunal 's and

grievances... But people will say, their experience is different, what

they bring to it is different. This is a really difficult area because

employers are so defensive. They often do not understand how

subjective their reasoning is over pay justification. Actually, we need

a much clearer system as to why women and men are paid in certain

ways. They need to think through, is it really... Five years experience,

does it matter? How much more does ten years experience at? Market

value, what market are you looking at? I do not think there is real

transparency or discussion over the criteria of pay. Finally, from all

of you, let us be specific, you have research going on in your industry

to see the reasons, what are your theories about why this still

happens in Britain in 2017? Traditionally, it has happened, and

I do not think we have confronted it, we have said there are problems,

but we have not said, why is this happening? There are theories that

perhaps women are not asking, but I'm not convinced. It is a knock on

that if it is an employer, they think, we will not offer it. We do

not know. We are getting to the point because

it has become so prominent, we are actively thinking. Within the

veterinary profession, I do not think employers go out to go, I want

to give a male employee more. It is subconscious. It is creeping and

seeping and we have to stand up and say, it is not right, looking at how

we sought pay structures, looking at how you pay people, rather than

doing the traditional, if I ask, I may get. It really is based on

maternity and there is this preconception that women are not

committed, they will leave the workforce, they do not progress.

Once they return, there are all sorts of stereotypes around women at

a particular age. Also, there are too few women around the boardroom

tables. In our industry, there are only a handful of us considered to

be senior in the industry. We bump into each other all the time because

we are so few. You need women around the boardroom table because they

will start looking at those practices and challenging them. Not

always. One would hope they would. OK, thank you. We will see what

happens. Thank you for coming on the programme, all of you.

England's women cricketers stunned fans at Lord's on Sunday

when they fought back against India to win the World Cup.

But it wasn't just a victory for England -

One of the team's bowlers has described it as a watershed moment

The players say they set out to inspire girls to play cricket

and the way they have played has most certainly done that.

Following their victory, former England all-rounder,

I've been trying for years and today, finally, my daughters

Thank you @englandcricket women, inspirational.

Let's take you back now to Lord's to relive that momentous win.

On strike. Six wickets for Anya Shrubsole, England's hair! England

win the World Cup in front of a packed house at Lords who go nuts in

the crowd. APPLAUSE

England in a huddle. Listen to that noise, for an England women's team

winning the World Cup on home soil in 2017. England have done it by

just nine runs at Lords. But it wasn't just

a victory for England - One of the team's bowlers has

described it as a watershed moment I have said that! Let us introduce

two of the team, Tammy Beaumont and Alex Hartley. I have just seen the

World Cup, how heavy is it? Really heavy! Lift it. It looks really

liked! Congratulations, both of you. As it sunk in? No, not yet. We keep

having to pinch ourselves, having the trophy today, incredible, to be

in front of a packed house at Lords, the cherry on top. What about you,

Alex? It has not sunk in yet, but absolutely a dream come true. The

trophy next to us, everything I have drained of as a young child. --

dreams of. I was there on Sunday with mums and dads and kids, all of

them boys. You know what, India were cruising to victory, chasing a

fairly modest 229 to win. What happened at the end? So tense! Anya

Shrubsole is what happened! An absolute hero, she bowled

fantastically. It was an unbelievable win in the end. In

terms of her story, just for those who do not know, she first visited

Lourdes in 2001 when her dad was playing for Bath and she tweeted she

would love to play in a final one day at Lord's for England -- she

visited Lourdes. It was incredible she got the opportunity. She dreamt

of it as a young child. Tammy, real inspiration for anyone who wants to

play in a final, buy or girl, do you agree? Definitely. We saw so many

young girls and boys around the pitch after the game, just

incredible, no better time to be playing women and girls cricket in

this country. Hopefully the start of something brilliant for the sport.

Tammy, you have spoken about how you used to have doubts that you were

good enough. Tell us a bit about that, give us more insight. Yeah,

pretty tricky start to my career, in and out of the team. Two years ago,

I thought I had played my last game for England. The coach came in,

massive second chance for me. I have taken it with both hands and now we

are here as world champions and it feels incredible, all the tears back

in the day have been worth it. What did you do to turn things around for

yourself? Loads of people watching will either have experienced it

themselves or through their kids, one minute you are in the team, the

next, you are not. It was just a case of going back to why I started

playing the game, I have always loved playing cricket, it got to the

point where I worked out exactly what I wanted to do and how I needed

to get there and I decided I wanted to try and become one of the best

opening batters in the world, I am not there yet, but it started a

journey for me. To get a second chance and Rob Owen, not looking

back, always believing in myself, listening to the people that count,

the coach, my mum and dad, some of my closest friends, that was all

that mattered. Clearly you put the hard work in. Alex, give us an

insight into the kind of routine you have in order to become a world

champion. For me, I moved from Lancashire down the Middlesex when I

was four -- four years ago. At Loughborough, three days a week.

Just seen an awful photo of me on the screen! Three days a week,

Loughborough training. Dream come true. Fantastic. I know you know

about Paul Collingwood's tweaked, former England player, saying,

finally, because of your achievement, his daughters will get

into cricket. Let us have a look at that. That is quite... Do you feel

that is a responsibility or does it make you happy? That is one of them

tweets that touched me quite a lot. It is amazing to see we have

inspired some young girls to play cricket and hopefully that will

continue and it just shows how exciting the tournament has been and

how much the crowd have got involved and the British public have been

amazing. What are the conversations you have had with young girls about

them getting into cricket? When we first started a lot of us

are role models. We were in the men's game and for girls to be

cheering you on and really excited to get an autograph or a picture, it

brings a smile to my face and I'm sure the other girls feel the same.

I can't really believe that we are role models. We're normal people