26/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


26/07/2017

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Our top story today: This programme has seen evidence that Kensington

:00:07.:00:13.

and Chelsea Council was warned as early as 2010 that building

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a new school at the base of Grenfell Tower could block access

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to fire trucks and other emergency vehicles.

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The fire brigades union has told us that some fire engines had huge

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difficulties getting to the tower that night.

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It now wants those access problems looked at as part

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Also on the programme: Is the culture of abuse towards MPs

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MPs from all parties have been telling us about the kind

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of intimidating and bullying messages they receive.

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Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

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Eat EXPLETIVE in hell, you Tory witch.

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Get out of my country, you ugly, racist EXPLETIVE!

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We'll ask whether this kind of regular abuse MPs receive

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will end up driving some of them out of politics altogether.

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Plus, up to 60 reports of murder and thoughts of killing associated

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with antidepressants have been received by the UK

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medicines regulator in the last three decades.

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I believe if he hadn't taken the Sertraline he wouldn't

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Throughout the programme, we'll bring you the latest breaking

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A little later, we'll hear claims that sperm is declining at such

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a dramatic rate the human species could eventually become extinct.

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Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

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And if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today: New diesel and petrol cars

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are to be banned from 2040, as part of efforts to

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The move will be announced by the Government this morning,

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heralding a shift to all-electric vehicles, which now account for only

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There'll also be a fund of ?255 million to help local

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councils speed up efforts to combat emissions from diesel vehicles.

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ARCHIVE: He drives up in a 1908 Model T.

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We've come a long way in terms of design, but for 100 years we've

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been relying on vehicles with an internal combustion engine

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burning petrol or diesel, but is that about to change?

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Several major car-makers including BMW, Volkswagen and Volvo have

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already announced ambitious plans for electric cars, seen as a key way

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of tackling air pollution, and now the Government

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of petrol and diesel engines in the UK with a ban on sales by 2040.

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It's part of a ?3 billion air quality strategy that also includes

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?255 million to help local authorities cut pollution.

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It will mean a ban on sales and production of new petrol

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or diesel vehicles in the UK as well as a consultation

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The move follows a similar pledge earlier this month

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by President Macron of France where the ban will also

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Campaigners are likely to complain that the Government hasn't gone far

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enough or fast enough, while Labour is saying

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are living in areas with illegal levels of air pollution and action

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is needed now and not in 23 years time.

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The Environment Minister, Michael Gove, speaking on the Today

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programme, was asked whether more was needed to be done to tackle

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I think it's important that we all gear up for a significant change,

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which deals not just with the problems to health caused by

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emissions but the broader problems caused in terms of accelerating

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climate change. But I do accept the premise, which is that we also need

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to take action now to deal with some specific health concerns which are

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raised by particular types of emission, and which are

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predominantly but not exclusively from diesel cars and other diesel

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vehicles. Michael Gove, the environment

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Secretary. Ben Brown is in the BBC

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Newsroom with a summary The High Court judge overseeing

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the case of the terminally ill baby Charlie Gard will decide today

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whether the child's parents can Doctors at Great Ormond

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Street Hospital say that, in the interest of his care,

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he should stay where he is or be His parents have appealed

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for a specialist doctor to come forward so he can spend his final

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hours at home. The judge leading the inquiry

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into the Grenfell Tower fire has told survivors he would "get

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to the bottom" of the tragedy Shouting broke out as residents

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expressed their anger ahead of the final consultation

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on what the investigation We're not here to fight

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each other, brother. And more than once, the inquiry

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chair, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, We are not going to get anywhere

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if you all talk at once. Well, this meeting has broken up now

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after almost three hours of talking. It has been fractious

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at times, emotional too. I think what the inquiry panel can't

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have failed to take away is the frustration and anger that

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still exists here and the fact that some people don't have faith

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in their ability to do You know, quite honestly,

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I don't know why we have an inquiry that the so-called chair,

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who's a judge, cannot compel We need to see that they

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are representative, that they are going to understand

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the pain, the humanitarian issues, because they're all very

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relevant in this as well. The main reason people

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are angry is because they're Now whether that was the right forum

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to get those answers is questionable, but the fact

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is that people are There is a lot of emotion

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and I entirely understand We're going to continue to work

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with them and hope that by careful preparation and discussion,

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and so on, we can make them realise that we can give them

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justice by finding out Today, there's another meeting,

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when residents can question But six weeks after this fire,

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there's little sign of things Two men have been targeted

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in a suspected acid The Met Police said the men,

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thought to be in their late teens, flagged down officers

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in Bethnal Green early Police said it was still not known

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what liquid was thrown at them. MPs from all parties say

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they experience regular trolling They say they're targeted

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for their sexuality, religious beliefs and social

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background by people who were intent on "driving them out

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of politics altogether". An inquiry into the issue

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was announced by the standards watchdog earlier in July,

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and began its We'll be speaking to some MPs

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about their experiences The US House of Representatives has

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voted to impose fresh sanctions on Russia,

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despite President Donald Trump Senior officials will be targeted

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in retaliation for alleged Russian interference in the 2016

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American election. The measures will also

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see fresh sanctions against North Korea and Iran over

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ballistic missile tests. The Supreme Court is to rule

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on a challenge to the increase The legal battle is a challenge

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to the fees brought in June 2013 in tribunals, which range

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from ?390 to ?1600. The cost of the fees has resulted

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in a huge reduction of cases. The Supreme Court is expected

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to make their judgement Humans could become extinct if sperm

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counts in men continue to fall at current rates,

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a doctor has warned. Researchers assessing the results

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of nearly 200 studies say sperm counts among men from North America,

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Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, seem to have halved

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in less than 40 years. They point to exposure to chemicals

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as a possible cause. At least 10,000 people, including

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British holiday-makers, were moved to safety in the south of France

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during the night to escape rapidly spreading fires. A new blaze has

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broken out West of St Tropez. A number of campsites on the coast

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have been evacuated. Princess Diana's brother says he was

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lied to about Prince William and Prince Harry wanting to walk behind

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their mother's coffin. In an interview with the Today programme,

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he said it was a bizarre and cruel thing for the Princes to do. The

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funeral procession was, he said, the most horrifying half an hour of his

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life. He was speaking as the 20th anniversary of her death approaches

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in August. The number of people over 90

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who hold a driving license in Great Britain has topped 100,000

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for the first time. That's according to data

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revealed by the DVLA. Currently drivers aged 70 and over

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are required to fill in a self-assessment form

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every three years. They must declare that

:10:12.:10:13.

their eyesight meets the minimum standard,

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but some think the law should be changed and they

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should be re-tested. On abuse RMP is, one viewer says:

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These people should be punished and should be behind bars. Anthony says:

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We have to remember that MPs are human, sort of! And another viewer

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says: They need to get over themselves. Paul says, on Briton

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they might consider not screaming at each other like three-year-olds

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during PMQs. Hughes is with us with this poor, and Adam Peaty is on

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fire! Well, he's an incredible athlete -

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already, at the age of 22, we are talking about Adam Peaty

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as if he could well become Britain's He's already won a gold medal

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at the World Aquatics Championships Yesterday morning we mentioned

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a new world record in the 50 metres breastroke heats

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and last night he only Another world record

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in his semifinal last night, and with it, the defending champion

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became the first person to go If he wins this afternoon's final,

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he'll repeat his double world title And you wouldn't bet

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against him doing it, especially as yesterday he said

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he was actually lacking in energy. This morning I went 26.1

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and I thought it was going to be Coming out there tonight I was a bit

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down because it's been such an emotional few days but I thought,

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right, get up for it and do what I do and Mel said don't waste

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an opportunity because you don't know when is going to be your last

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so I just went out and did And that is the fourth time he's

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broken the world record for the 50 metres breast stroke,

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so fingers crossed things go perfectly for him in Budapest

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a little later on. It is not just about medals, he is

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now trying to take the sport as far as he can.

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Football transfer fees have been huge for years and they are

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continuing to go up what? Yes, everyone is hoping to improve their

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team, but at what cost? The figures being spoken

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about for transfers this We've seen Manchester United spend

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?75 million for striker Manchester City have

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spent over ?200 million already this summer,

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including 45 million on England defender Kyle Walker from Spurs,

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and it's already become acceptable it seems, to see prices of 50,

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60 or 70 million routinely discussed when it comes

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to Premier League football. According Tottenham's chariman,

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Daniel Levy, it just isn't. He's well known for his smart

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business sense and he says the overspending of some

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clubs will "eventually Last summer, Jose Mourinho made

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the world record transfer to bring Paul Pogba to Old Trafford

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for ?89 million. Despite his level of spending,

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he takes a similar view to Levy. We spent a lot of money on the

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striker, and if we don't do that, we have no striker. That is obvious

:13:48.:13:51.

nowadays, especially for the strikers, the amount of money is

:13:52.:13:55.

amazing. Every club is getting players, investing a lot. Some

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clubs, obviously, they are paying too much, and by doing that, they

:14:01.:14:04.

create a very strange and out-of-control market, but this is a

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reality now. And Mourinho went on to say

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it was the smaller clubs who faced the real problem,

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rather than the likes of Manchester United who could find

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themselves in financial trouble. For now at least, it seems that

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trend is set to continue. More from Hugh throughout the

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morning. Is our political culture getting

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steadily more and more abusive? MPs from all parties say

:14:32.:14:34.

they experience regular trolling They say they're targeted

:14:35.:14:36.

for their sexuality, religious beliefs and social

:14:37.:14:38.

background by people who were intent on "driving them out

:14:39.:14:41.

of politics altogether". An inquiry into the issue

:14:42.:14:44.

was announced by the standards watchdog earlier in July,

:14:45.:14:47.

and began its This programme has been speaking

:14:48.:14:49.

to MPs about their experiences of campaigning and holding office,

:14:50.:14:54.

to get a sense of how Caroline Ansell is as bad

:14:55.:14:57.

as Isis, and Hitler. Get out of my country,

:14:58.:15:05.

you ugly, racist...! Want to see your head

:15:06.:15:23.

swinging from Tower Bridge. Simon Hart, you're a...,

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go get in the bin, I hope You...Muslim, fascist...,

:15:31.:15:33.

we voted Brexit, and Article 50 Over the past few years,

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the UK's been caught up Every week seems to bring

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a new twist in the plot of a sometimes thrilling,

:15:49.:16:01.

sometimes chaotic political drama. But here at Westminster,

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a lot of people are afraid that in the recent turbulence,

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the very nature of our political conversation may have

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changed for the worse. This was the most abusive

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and vindictive election campaign most of us have ever

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been involved with. MPs have told this programme

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about an emerging culture of abuse It should never be part of the job

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to receive this level of abuse. I've had death threats,

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I've had people tweeting that I should be hung,

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I've had rape threats, described as a pathetic,

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useless, fat, black... And, as well as the interviews

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you'll see in this film, we've spoken to a lot of MPs

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off the record. Almost all of them told us

:16:48.:16:49.

that they'd received at least some abuse online,

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ranging from the quite trivial But the question is how

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serious is this problem? Is what we're seeing just

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predictable part of passionate debate in fractious times,

:16:58.:16:59.

or is it something new and different that could even represent a threat

:17:00.:17:02.

to the very fabric of our democracy? There's an awful lot at stake

:17:03.:17:05.

here in the maintenance This is about sweeping opposition

:17:06.:17:07.

out of politics altogether. And the day that we've come to,

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you know, that we've don't feel that they can say

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what they think, that's actually Conservative MP Simon Hart has

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been trying to shine a light on this problem,

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and he, at least, is convinced that in the last couple of years, things

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have become dramatically worse. Because I've been involved

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in elections of one sort or another for ten or 15 years,

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and this one was very different. Different where I live, different

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for colleagues all over the UK, and a real difference

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between 2015 and 2017. This was not an ordinary election,

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it was vitriolic, dishonest, unpleasant, not for politicians

:17:44.:17:48.

necessarily, we're meant to be used to that kind of thing,

:17:49.:17:51.

but for everybody around us. To your mind, is this something that

:17:52.:17:55.

affects politicians on the right of politics more than those

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on the left, or is it From my own personal experiences,

:17:59.:18:10.

and the ones I was picking up from colleagues, I think

:18:11.:18:14.

there is a more active, there is more evidence of activity

:18:15.:18:16.

in this election orchestrated from the left than from the right,

:18:17.:18:19.

but I emphasise it was not And so do you think, then,

:18:20.:18:22.

there's been a change in the character of left-wing

:18:23.:18:26.

activism in the last few years that you would say is responsible

:18:27.:18:28.

for the rise in this Well, that would be how it appears

:18:29.:18:31.

to me, yes, and, you know, one of my bugbears in all of this

:18:32.:18:35.

too is political leadership, and that's left and right, but also

:18:36.:18:38.

leadership of political movements. Organisations like Momentum,

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or like the trade unions, although they occasionally say

:18:45.:18:46.

that they condemn these activities, there isn't a lot of evidence

:18:47.:18:51.

that they really mean One of the big differences

:18:52.:18:54.

between Conservative and Labour, I observe, is that my party sees

:18:55.:18:58.

Labour as the opposition. Isn't it right to say that

:18:59.:19:02.

Jeremy Corbyn in particular has consistently condemned any kind

:19:03.:19:10.

of abusive or personalised attacks Well, I would say yes, he has,

:19:11.:19:12.

he is on the record as saying this is not how he wishes to,

:19:13.:19:17.

you know, what he wishes My question, though,

:19:18.:19:23.

is a bit more than that, it's OK, what have you done,

:19:24.:19:26.

Jeremy, apart from sending out the odd tweet, what have

:19:27.:19:28.

you done to stop this? Has there been a single member

:19:29.:19:31.

of the Labour Party or Momentum or trade unions who's actually been

:19:32.:19:34.

reprimanded, sanctioned, kicked out for this kind of thing,

:19:35.:19:38.

where it's been provable? Now, the fact is there has been no

:19:39.:19:43.

answer to that question, so actually if they want to be

:19:44.:19:50.

serious about this, they've got to do more than just

:19:51.:19:53.

pay lip service to it. They've got to do

:19:54.:19:56.

something about it. We don't want to stifle free speech,

:19:57.:20:00.

we don't want to stifle debate, we actually want to bring this back

:20:01.:20:04.

to an acceptable level, which means people can

:20:05.:20:07.

challenge us properly... It's clear Simon Hart,

:20:08.:20:08.

like other Conservative MPs we've spoken to,

:20:09.:20:10.

holds left-wing activists primarily responsible for the recent rise

:20:11.:20:12.

in abusive language directed But on the other end

:20:13.:20:14.

of the political spectrum, Labour's Cat Smith, a member

:20:15.:20:17.

of the Shadow Cabinet, and a close ally of Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:18.:20:19.

has quite a different story to tell. The abuse that I receive

:20:20.:20:24.

personally tends to come Sometimes they're organised,

:20:25.:20:26.

sometimes they're not. The organised groups tend to be

:20:27.:20:31.

groups like Britain First, the EDL, and Combat 18,

:20:32.:20:33.

who are very threatening. And you mention that women tend

:20:34.:20:38.

to get it worse than men, do you think that there

:20:39.:20:41.

is a misogynistic element to a lot of the abuse of tweets

:20:42.:20:44.

and things that you get? There's absolutely no doubt that

:20:45.:20:48.

women MPs are receiving far more abuse than their male counterparts,

:20:49.:20:51.

and of the women MPs, I'd say they're MPs who are black,

:20:52.:20:57.

ethnic minority or Jewish tend to get far more abuse

:20:58.:21:00.

than white women MPs, and I'm very aware that by doing

:21:01.:21:04.

this interview I'm probably lining up quite a few trolls to come

:21:05.:21:07.

and greet me on social media over Really, so you have a sense that

:21:08.:21:10.

just from doing this and speaking out about this kind of abuse,

:21:11.:21:19.

you're likely to attract Absolutely, I don't doubt that women

:21:20.:21:21.

MPs who then start to speak out about their abuse suddenly become

:21:22.:21:25.

a target for more trolls, but the point is that some

:21:26.:21:28.

of us have to speak out. Cat agrees with Simon Hart

:21:29.:21:31.

that the 2017 campaign But she has a very different idea

:21:32.:21:35.

of who was responsible. What we saw from the Conservative

:21:36.:21:40.

Party during the election was the singling out of,

:21:41.:21:43.

let's be honest, Diane Abbott, and some of the very personal

:21:44.:21:46.

attacks I think bordered on the racist during

:21:47.:21:52.

the Conservative Party's official campaign, and this is in line

:21:53.:21:57.

with what happened in the London mayoral election,

:21:58.:22:00.

where Zac Goldsmith's official campaign, I think, was bordering

:22:01.:22:03.

on the racist against Sadiq Khan. So are you saying that

:22:04.:22:09.

the Conservative Party has officially sanctioned racist

:22:10.:22:13.

campaigning against people I think when the Conservative Party

:22:14.:22:18.

campaign, official campaign, is using the wolf whistle politics

:22:19.:22:22.

that they did use, it almost gives permission for people

:22:23.:22:25.

who are racists online to take that a step further and use the kind

:22:26.:22:31.

of threatening language which we've seen directed at Sadiq Khan

:22:32.:22:34.

and Diane Abbott. Conservative Caroline Ansell

:22:35.:22:37.

lost her seat in the ultra-marginal constituency of Eastbourne,

:22:38.:22:40.

after a hard-fought campaign She is particularly worried that

:22:41.:22:43.

certain political perspectives are being suffocated by abusive

:22:44.:22:48.

and threatening language online. Give us a sense of how frequently

:22:49.:23:04.

you would receive comments online, or messages that you would consider

:23:05.:23:07.

to be abusive. You know, you post a comment

:23:08.:23:09.

and then it can create a feeding frenzy of people who seem to be just

:23:10.:23:13.

waiting for you to have the temerity to talk about a success that you've

:23:14.:23:17.

managed to come through, or someone that you've championed,

:23:18.:23:19.

just that sort of instant backlash. And that can be all the way

:23:20.:23:24.

through from just trying to sort of demoralise or diminish

:23:25.:23:27.

or discredit, all the way through to, you know,

:23:28.:23:31.

very hostile comments And as a campaigning politician

:23:32.:23:33.

on the right of politics, do you ever feel hesitant to express

:23:34.:23:38.

opinions online, because of a fear I guess I have had a moment,

:23:39.:23:41.

if you moments where I've, you know, paused over posts,

:23:42.:23:48.

because I know what But, actually, the experience I've

:23:49.:23:50.

had has made me more determined to step out,

:23:51.:23:54.

more determined to speak up, and I think that's, you know,

:23:55.:23:59.

really and truly the only forward. You cannot be dismayed by it,

:24:00.:24:04.

you need to fight them for something that's really important,

:24:05.:24:08.

and that's freedom of speech. But Caroline has experience

:24:09.:24:11.

of something more serious One man used Facebook

:24:12.:24:13.

to issue a sinister threat. Yeah, a local man, essentially

:24:14.:24:19.

he said he'd kill me. He said he knew where I lived,

:24:20.:24:23.

he said he had a knife, and he was very angry about a vote

:24:24.:24:26.

in parliament, and if I persisted, He was arrested and tried and

:24:27.:24:30.

convicted, and spent time in prison. Do you think there's something

:24:31.:24:37.

about the tone of political debate at the moment that made that guy

:24:38.:24:40.

think it was somehow OK to issue The man was subsequently released,

:24:41.:24:43.

but on the day of our interview, Caroline said that the same man

:24:44.:24:51.

was once again posting abusive Back at Westminster,

:24:52.:24:54.

Labour MP Rupa Huq told us about an incident at the 2015

:24:55.:25:00.

election where campaigning got physical, but she also explained how

:25:01.:25:03.

certain hot button issues can Abortion, that kind of thing,

:25:04.:25:06.

is one of them, that it I mean, it seems a long way

:25:07.:25:11.

from Ealing and Acton Jewish MPs also have been

:25:12.:25:18.

subject to awful abuse, and I think, you know,

:25:19.:25:25.

probably Muslim women Rupa rejects any suggestion

:25:26.:25:27.

that the rise in the abuse is exclusively down to activists

:25:28.:25:35.

on the left. I mean, I think that this is a sort

:25:36.:25:37.

of smear campaign against us, really, because, you know,

:25:38.:25:41.

the things on social media, I think any kid going to look

:25:42.:25:46.

at a pop video on YouTube would have seen stuff about Jeremy Corbyn

:25:47.:25:50.

being a terrorist sympathiser, all these things they were trying

:25:51.:25:52.

to pin on him, which was not true. The government has recently asked

:25:53.:25:56.

the Committee for Standards in Public Life to interrogate this

:25:57.:25:58.

issue, and to make recommendations We have a mood surrounding a normal

:25:59.:26:01.

operation of Parliamentary democracy, which is not the normal

:26:02.:26:10.

British mood. There are different interpretations,

:26:11.:26:15.

or what the balance is, or who is suffering the most,

:26:16.:26:25.

and so on, but the really interesting thing is across

:26:26.:26:28.

the parties in Westminster, nobody is actually saying this

:26:29.:26:29.

is an imaginary, got up thing. It's slightly reminds me,

:26:30.:26:32.

I'm old enough to remember the period before the Troubles

:26:33.:26:34.

began, and actually the tone of some of those things

:26:35.:26:37.

is actually quite similar, eerily significant to some

:26:38.:26:39.

of the things that we've been talking about in the press

:26:40.:26:41.

in recent weeks. So you've said that we might be

:26:42.:26:44.

approaching a tipping Can you say a bit about

:26:45.:26:46.

what you meant by that? Well, I mean, when I talk

:26:47.:26:51.

about a tipping point, I mean that it becomes commonplace,

:26:52.:26:53.

and we accept that this, I hope, temporary spike upwards in recent

:26:54.:27:01.

times of abuse and intimidatory rhetoric and practice towards people

:27:02.:27:03.

seeking public office, that we come to accept this

:27:04.:27:05.

as the norm. And one of the issues

:27:06.:27:08.

here is the possibility that the volume of abuse is not

:27:09.:27:13.

neutral in its effects, that it is actually tending

:27:14.:27:15.

to intimidate certain types of people and reduce

:27:16.:27:18.

diversity in our public life. But the thing I think

:27:19.:27:23.

above all I want to say is that we do accept that

:27:24.:27:25.

a characteristic of British political debate is its vigour,

:27:26.:27:28.

and it's sometimes very strident. Strident and vigorous political

:27:29.:27:32.

debate is not something We have a strong understanding

:27:33.:27:35.

of the fact that the vitality of the British political debate

:27:36.:27:41.

is something that we When you discuss this issue

:27:42.:27:43.

with politicians on the right, it usually isn't long before

:27:44.:27:49.

the left-wing campaign group I think across politics there has

:27:50.:27:51.

been a rise in abusive language, and it's a serious issue,

:27:52.:27:59.

and I think as an organisation, Momentum sees that all political

:28:00.:28:02.

organisations need to work together When we talk to politicians

:28:03.:28:05.

on the right, particularly Conservative MPs, very often

:28:06.:28:09.

when they're talking about abusive language being used online,

:28:10.:28:12.

they mention Momentum. Why do you think it

:28:13.:28:16.

is that they do that? I mean, they may mention it,

:28:17.:28:19.

but none of these politicians have made any complaints to us

:28:20.:28:22.

as an organisation, they haven't We have a very, very

:28:23.:28:25.

clear code of ethics, which sets out the rules

:28:26.:28:29.

for all Momentum members, and they sign that when they become

:28:30.:28:32.

members, and if any of them break that, we have procedures

:28:33.:28:36.

to deal with that. So, you know, if there

:28:37.:28:38.

is evidence of Momentum members being involved in such activity,

:28:39.:28:40.

we take that very seriously. And what action do you take

:28:41.:28:44.

when it's proven to be the case that a Momentum member has engaged

:28:45.:28:47.

in abusive language online? We have very, very,

:28:48.:28:50.

very few cases of this, but we have a procedure we follow

:28:51.:28:52.

to ensure that, if a member does that, then they will be suspended

:28:53.:28:55.

or expelled from the organisation. It's hard to know for sure

:28:56.:29:00.

what's going on here. One recent study found that fully

:29:01.:29:02.

50% of all abusive tweets directed at politicians were targeted

:29:03.:29:07.

at a small group of very high profile individuals,

:29:08.:29:10.

with Jeremy Corbyn himself receiving The same study also found that male

:29:11.:29:12.

Conservatives were the group most likely to receive abusive tweets,

:29:13.:29:20.

although, importantly, those with a high profile

:29:21.:29:24.

attract more abuse, and there are significantly

:29:25.:29:29.

more high-profile men in politics than women,

:29:30.:29:30.

so we shouldn't read Most people we've spoken

:29:31.:29:32.

to ultimately acknowledge that this is a problem that affects all parts

:29:33.:29:38.

of the political spectrum. But the choice now facing our

:29:39.:29:41.

elected representatives is whether they allow this to become

:29:42.:29:44.

yet another party political squabble, or whether in very divided

:29:45.:29:48.

times, enough unity can be found All main political parties say

:29:49.:29:51.

there is no place for intimidation, Later in the programme,

:29:52.:30:01.

we'll speak to some newly elected MPs about their experiences over

:30:02.:30:08.

the last month. Is one viewer says: I feel despised

:30:09.:30:29.

and hated by MPs. Fiona: Threats and violence have no place. Another

:30:30.:30:40.

viewer says: The if you don't believe me then you are an enemy

:30:41.:30:44.

type of politics is fuelling it. John says: It is hard to empathise

:30:45.:30:49.

or offer sympathy to MPs when they are renowned for being a litres, and

:30:50.:30:54.

once elected, quietly ignoring the will of the people.

:30:55.:31:08.

Later, we will talk to the newly elected MPs about their experiences.

:31:09.:31:19.

Kensington and Chelsea town were warned in 2010 that is building a

:31:20.:31:24.

school next to the tower could block access for fire service vehicles.

:31:25.:31:32.

And: Reports that an antidepressant could have played a role in one of

:31:33.:31:39.

America's worst shootings. Now, the news headlines with Ben.

:31:40.:31:43.

New diesel and petrol cars are to be banned from 2040, as part of efforts

:31:44.:31:47.

The move will be announced by the Government this morning,

:31:48.:31:50.

heralding a shift to all-electric vehicles, which now account for only

:31:51.:31:53.

There'll also be a fund of ?255 million to help local

:31:54.:31:58.

councils speed up efforts to combat emissions from diesel vehicles.

:31:59.:32:00.

Environment Secretary Michael Gove said the change is needed

:32:01.:32:02.

We have to get rid of petrol and diesel cars from the roads to make

:32:03.:32:18.

sure that we deal not only with their health problems that air

:32:19.:32:23.

pollution causes, but to meet climate change targets. Volvo and

:32:24.:32:31.

Mini are moving in this way. It is critically important that we provide

:32:32.:32:33.

the encouragement from Government to help the car industry do the right

:32:34.:32:36.

The High Court judge overseeing the case of the terminally ill baby

:32:37.:32:40.

Charlie Gard will decide today whether the child's parents can

:32:41.:32:42.

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital say that,

:32:43.:32:45.

in the interest of his care, he should stay where he is or be

:32:46.:32:49.

His parents have appealed for a specialist doctor to come

:32:50.:32:52.

forward so he can spend his final hours at home.

:32:53.:32:56.

The judge leading the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has

:32:57.:32:59.

told survivors he would "get to the bottom" of the tragedy

:33:00.:33:01.

during a second public meeting Shouting broke out as residents

:33:02.:33:04.

expressed their anger ahead of the final consultation on what

:33:05.:33:06.

Also this programme has learned that Kensington and Chelsea Council

:33:07.:33:15.

were warned as early as 2010 that a new secondary school at the base

:33:16.:33:18.

of the Tower could block access to emergency vehicles.

:33:19.:33:32.

At least 10,000 people, including British holiday-makers, were moved

:33:33.:33:41.

to save 30 -- moved to safety last night to escape rapidly spreading

:33:42.:33:45.

forest fires. The fires have broken up west of St Tropez, and campsites

:33:46.:33:55.

have been evacuated. Princess Diana's brother has said he was lied

:33:56.:34:01.

to about Prince William and Prince Harry saying they wanted to walk

:34:02.:34:05.

behind their mother's coffin. The funeral procession, he said, was the

:34:06.:34:09.

most horrifying half an hour of his life. He was speaking as the 20th

:34:10.:34:13.

anniversary of her death approaches in August.

:34:14.:34:15.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

:34:16.:34:19.

Some more messages from you about the kind of abuse that politicians

:34:20.:34:26.

received. This one says: The rise in abuse at the tax goes hand-in-hand

:34:27.:34:31.

with unfulfilled expectations and a great sense of entitlement.

:34:32.:34:35.

Politicians need to realise that things are as they are, so get a

:34:36.:34:41.

grip on tempers and calm down. Jane says: I would like to point out it

:34:42.:34:45.

is not just MPs who suffer abuse. Their staff usually pick up the

:34:46.:34:53.

messages and have to deal with the often vile comments. Ian says: I

:34:54.:34:58.

don't condone any racist nonviolent comments against anyone, but the

:34:59.:35:05.

recent issue about MPs' pay causes legitimate concerns about their

:35:06.:35:13.

professionalism. -- racist and violent.

:35:14.:35:15.

Adam Peaty continues to push the boundaries in a swimming pool.

:35:16.:35:19.

The Olympic champion beat his own world record in the

:35:20.:35:22.

50-metre breaststroke twice in one day, breaking the 26-second

:35:23.:35:24.

He goes in the final today looking to set an even faster time.

:35:25.:35:33.

Former Olympic long jump champion Greg Rutherford says he's devastated

:35:34.:35:35.

that he'll miss next week's World Championships in London

:35:36.:35:37.

There's been more criticism of the Rugby Football Union's

:35:38.:35:43.

decision not to renew the contracts for all of England's

:35:44.:35:46.

The Shadow Sports Minister, Dr Rosena Allin-Khan,

:35:47.:35:50.

executive Ian Ritchie expressing her "deep concern".

:35:51.:35:55.

And Chelsea's record signing Alvaro Morata made his debut

:35:56.:35:57.

He set up this goal, but couldn't stop them going down

:35:58.:36:02.

3-2 in a preseason match against Bayern Munich.

:36:03.:36:10.

That is all the sport for now. I will be back just after 10am.

:36:11.:36:18.

The economy grew by 0.3% during the second quarter of this year,

:36:19.:36:26.

according to the office for National statistics. That just in.

:36:27.:36:29.

Kensington and Chelsea Council was warned as early as 2010 that

:36:30.:36:31.

building a new school at the base of Grenfell Tower could block

:36:32.:36:34.

access to fire trucks and other emergency vehicles.

:36:35.:36:36.

That's according to documents seen exclusively by this programme.

:36:37.:36:38.

Fire fighters have said that during the blaze "access

:36:39.:36:40.

was an issue" with "huge difficulties" getting

:36:41.:36:42.

Our reporter Jim Reed has this story.

:36:43.:36:48.

This goes back almost a decade, to 2008, and plans to build this school

:36:49.:37:04.

here. This is Kensington Academy, right at the foot of Grenfell Tower

:37:05.:37:11.

itself. It has a capacity of 1000. We want to show you satellite photos

:37:12.:37:16.

that give you an idea of how a building that school change the

:37:17.:37:20.

area. It takes a while to take in, but this is a top- down view of the

:37:21.:37:26.

site. This is the roof of Grenfell Tower before the fire. This large

:37:27.:37:31.

building here is the Academy. This is a leisure centre that was also

:37:32.:37:35.

rebuilt as part of these plans, and this would have been one of the

:37:36.:37:38.

access routes for firefighters that day, you would have thought. Let's

:37:39.:37:43.

look back to see how this area changed. In 2013, you can see, this

:37:44.:37:48.

is when the building work was taking place. It was a large development, a

:37:49.:37:53.

lot of money going into it. If we look back further at how the whole

:37:54.:37:58.

area would have looked before in 2010, this gives you an idea of why

:37:59.:38:00.

residents were upset about this. This car park was demolished to make

:38:01.:38:09.

way for the Academy. First, this could have prevented emergency

:38:10.:38:13.

vehicles getting to the site more directly. And by losing these

:38:14.:38:17.

parking spaces, they said a lot of cars were pushed into the

:38:18.:38:21.

surrounding roads, and that could have also made it more difficult for

:38:22.:38:24.

emergency vehicles to get through. We know the Academy was built

:38:25.:38:31.

anyway, wasn't it? That's right. It opened in 2014. A lot of resistance

:38:32.:38:37.

to this Academy. 318 letters, we understand, opposing the

:38:38.:38:41.

construction, and just two in support. Lots of the residents we

:38:42.:38:45.

spoke to felt that the whole area was congested anyway, and they were

:38:46.:38:48.

going to lose green space as well as that car park as part of these

:38:49.:38:53.

plans, and it could potentially stop emergency vehicles reaching the site

:38:54.:38:58.

easily. We have been passed a letter written to the council in 2010 by

:38:59.:39:02.

someone on the Grenfell Action Group, the residents' committee

:39:03.:39:05.

which looks after the error. It says: -- that looks after the area.

:39:06.:39:35.

Clearly, there were concerns ahead of the construction of the Academy

:39:36.:39:41.

building. On the night of the blaze itself? We know it was busy,

:39:42.:39:48.

chaotic. 45 engines attended at one point, 200 firefighters, and then

:39:49.:39:52.

the other emergency vehicles on top of that. People we have spoken to

:39:53.:39:55.

are saying, look, access was a particular issue on the night. We

:39:56.:40:02.

spoke to Lucy Masoud, a senior official at the Fire Brigades Union,

:40:03.:40:06.

and she spoke to us about the huge difficulties, as she puts it, faced

:40:07.:40:10.

by some firefighters trying to get to the tower that night. The streets

:40:11.:40:16.

around here are quite narrow. Add to that is that there were cars parked,

:40:17.:40:21.

it certainly was an issue for us. At the start of the incident, when our

:40:22.:40:25.

fire engines arrived, we needed access to the dry riser, which is

:40:26.:40:29.

where we set in and produce water for the building. We know that we

:40:30.:40:36.

had access problems there. What sort of problems? Cars and bar lives?

:40:37.:40:41.

Absolutely. One of the main issues was getting past the parked cars.

:40:42.:40:46.

The roads are quite narrow around here, and then there are cars

:40:47.:40:49.

parked, getting our five engines is close to the building as they need

:40:50.:40:54.

to be to access water and get our firefighters into the building as

:40:55.:40:57.

quickly as possible, whenever is an access issue, it has a huge impact

:40:58.:41:03.

on our ability to fight the fire. Our firefighters were having to go

:41:04.:41:10.

into the building is six or seven times, when legally we are only

:41:11.:41:15.

allowed to go into my fire twice the cause of the impact on our bodies,

:41:16.:41:18.

so we were giving in half a dozen time because of the resources.

:41:19.:41:27.

Bollards were supposed to be able to retract, but they weren't, they were

:41:28.:41:32.

permanent. That would have given us more room to get closer to the

:41:33.:41:37.

building. The green spaces have been built over with various buildings,

:41:38.:41:41.

and that affected our ability to get our fire engines here. Lucy Masoud

:41:42.:41:46.

from the Fire Brigades Union. The union now say it once access

:41:47.:41:54.

included in the enquiry. Eyewitnesses were critical, because

:41:55.:41:56.

of what they saw one the night. Interestingly similar accounts from

:41:57.:42:02.

eyewitnesses to the account you just heard from Lucy. Just after the

:42:03.:42:03.

fire, we both spoke to Lucy we both spoke to Mahad, a resident

:42:04.:42:26.

and an eyewitness. We were the first few people, and we saw the fire

:42:27.:42:33.

brigade and emergency services. We thought it could be tackled, that

:42:34.:42:35.

half the building wouldn't be affected. Though what bollards that

:42:36.:42:47.

were blocking -- vert there where pollard is blocking the access. That

:42:48.:42:55.

account came a few hours after the fire, so Mahad would not have been

:42:56.:43:01.

able to read newspapers or watch TV news reports. Other eyewitnesses we

:43:02.:43:05.

spoke to had similar accounts. Yesterday, we spoke to a Reverend in

:43:06.:43:10.

one of the churches near the site of the fire, and he said he saw at

:43:11.:43:14.

least one car that had to be dragged away by the fire brigade to allow

:43:15.:43:19.

them access to the site, so more indications that access was some

:43:20.:43:24.

sort of issue that night. And what do the council and the fire service

:43:25.:43:28.

say? We asked the council to come on the programme, but they said, we

:43:29.:43:33.

don't think it is right to make comments until the issue has been

:43:34.:43:36.

discussed with the police and the enquiry. The London Fire Brigade,

:43:37.:43:40.

distinct from the union, have said, it is inevitable and not all

:43:41.:43:43.

resources will be able to park next to the scene of a fire, so we have

:43:44.:43:47.

procedures to make sure that cruise can be rotated in and out as quickly

:43:48.:43:52.

as possible. Breaking news: The communities secretary has announced

:43:53.:43:57.

more details of the independent Grenfell recovery task force. This

:43:58.:44:01.

is the group that will look at the long-term recovery of the area, so

:44:02.:44:05.

what happens to the site itself. Are the right procedures in place for

:44:06.:44:12.

people who live in the local area? Javed Khan, the chief executive of

:44:13.:44:16.

Barnardo's has been appointed, Jim Scott, the leader of Wiltshire

:44:17.:44:23.

Council. The leader of the West Midlands police advisory group,

:44:24.:44:26.

people like that. They will meet in the next few weeks, and the

:44:27.:44:29.

communities secretary wants a first report by October this year. Thank

:44:30.:44:31.

you very much, Jim. We can speak now to Tony Morris

:44:32.:44:35.

who's a retired fire fighter Over 30 years, I think, as a

:44:36.:44:46.

firefighter. 15 years as the senior emergency planning officer. In your

:44:47.:44:51.

view, what impact it restricted access have on firefighters' ability

:44:52.:44:55.

to tackle the blaze? I think it would have been significant.

:44:56.:45:03.

Clearly, time is, in attacking the fire and rescue people, is critical.

:45:04.:45:06.

Any delay really hampers the efforts, and it increases the energy

:45:07.:45:14.

expended by firefighters having to return longer distances to collect

:45:15.:45:18.

equipment from vehicles and so on. I wonder if you think perhaps the

:45:19.:45:24.

public enquiry should be widened in order to look at changes to the

:45:25.:45:28.

Grenfell site over the years and how that affected the response on the

:45:29.:45:29.

night. Definitely. I responded to the

:45:30.:45:40.

consultation on the terms of reference and are included in that

:45:41.:45:42.

the need to look at everything from the original building construction

:45:43.:45:47.

through to what has happened since, what changes have been made, both to

:45:48.:45:53.

the building and around the building, because changes do tend to

:45:54.:45:59.

get made that don't take full account of Fire Service access.

:46:00.:46:04.

Thank you very much, Tony Morris, who was a retired firefighter and

:46:05.:46:05.

emergency planner. Still to come... We'll be live at the supreme court

:46:06.:46:12.

as the public service union Unison finds out if it's won its legal

:46:13.:46:19.

challenge against the increase in fees for those bringing

:46:20.:46:22.

employment tribunals and appeals. ?1200 costs at the moment and they

:46:23.:46:27.

say it is way too much. We will bring you that news live as it

:46:28.:46:30.

happens. A BBC Panorama investigation has

:46:31.:46:32.

found 60 reports of murder or thoughts of murder associated

:46:33.:46:35.

with antidepressants have been received by the UK medicines

:46:36.:46:37.

regulator in the last three decades. The Medicines and Healthcare

:46:38.:46:41.

Products Regulatory Agency says the reports don't necessarily mean

:46:42.:46:43.

the drugs caused the events. The investigation has also found

:46:44.:46:49.

evidence that suggests an antidepressant may have played

:46:50.:46:51.

a role in one of America's worst mass shootings,

:46:52.:46:53.

when a 24-year-old man with no history of violence shot dead

:46:54.:46:56.

12 people at a cinema screening of Batman in the US

:46:57.:46:58.

state of Colorado. Now a year-long investigation

:46:59.:47:06.

by the BBC is claiming there may be a link between James Holmes' actions

:47:07.:47:13.

and the anti-depressants Panorama has learned that in

:47:14.:47:30.

preparation for the trial two years ago, the defence brought a UK based

:47:31.:47:36.

psychiatrist to evaluate the evidence and meet Holm is in prison.

:47:37.:47:43.

Became too controversial in conclusion. I believe if he hadn't

:47:44.:47:45.

taken the sertraline, he wouldn't have murdered anyone. But his

:47:46.:47:50.

evidence was never tested in court it up Panorama has scrutinised what

:47:51.:47:54.

happened after James holds took the drug. And no book he wrote provide

:47:55.:47:59.

some clues. Holds wrote in his notebook how his obsession with

:48:00.:48:07.

killing default. It tends -- intense aversion of people, cause unknown,

:48:08.:48:11.

it began, suppressed by greater fear of others. And after he started

:48:12.:48:16.

taking sertraline, no more fear, hatred and checked, starts small, by

:48:17.:48:19.

a stun gun and knife. By handgun. Simon is a psychiatrist. The

:48:20.:48:39.

antidepressant James Hanson is taking at the time of the attack has

:48:40.:48:43.

held many and there was no evidence linking into homicide.

:48:44.:48:46.

Over 40 million prescriptions for SSRI anti-depressants

:48:47.:48:47.

were handed out by doctors last year in the UK.

:48:48.:48:50.

A freedom of information request has revealed the UK medicines regulator

:48:51.:48:52.

received 60 reports claiming there was a link between

:48:53.:48:55.

antidepressants and cases of murder and murderous thoughts over

:48:56.:48:59.

One of Britain's leading psychiatrists is calling for more

:49:00.:49:06.

research into the extreme side effects of the medication,

:49:07.:49:08.

But other leading medical professionals say there is no good

:49:09.:49:14.

evidence that antidepressants increase the risk of violent

:49:15.:49:17.

behaviour, and extremely rare cases could be explained by chance.

:49:18.:49:24.

Her son Shane killed his ex-girlfriend's boyfriend

:49:25.:49:28.

She blames the antidepressants he was on at the time,

:49:29.:49:34.

though there is no evidence that that is the case.

:49:35.:49:37.

Kirk Brandon claims he experienced murderous thoughts

:49:38.:49:39.

while he was on antidepressants in the 1990s.

:49:40.:49:43.

Ryan James has been taking medication for more than a decade.

:49:44.:49:46.

Also here is the immediate past President of the Royal College

:49:47.:49:53.

of Psychiatrists, Professor Simon Wessely.

:49:54.:49:58.

Welcome to all of you. I'm going to start with Leone. Tell us what shame

:49:59.:50:06.

was like before you started taking antidepressants. Shane was 22 and

:50:07.:50:13.

was going into his final year in college. He was happy,

:50:14.:50:17.

good-humoured, handsome. He had everything going for him. He was

:50:18.:50:21.

very kind, he loved his younger brothers and sister. Shane was no

:50:22.:50:28.

different than anybody else. His lecturers knew him as the Irish word

:50:29.:50:35.

for the big heart to talk that explains what he was like before he

:50:36.:50:40.

died. Tell us what Tell us what happened after he started taking

:50:41.:50:46.

antidepressants. 17 days after taking the antidepressant, he had

:50:47.:50:50.

split up with his girlfriend so he had gone to wear his ex-girlfriend

:50:51.:51:00.

of. She stabbed her new boyfriend and he died, and then he injured his

:51:01.:51:07.

ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend's brother and then he went

:51:08.:51:12.

out into the back garden and stabbed himself 19 times and he died. That

:51:13.:51:16.

was 17 days after starting the antidepressant. And you believe,

:51:17.:51:23.

clearly, there is a big link? I have no doubt there was a link. I have no

:51:24.:51:27.

doubt if Shane hadn't been on the antidepressant, he wouldn't be dead

:51:28.:51:30.

now and either with the other young man. Let me bring in Kirk. You an

:51:31.:51:36.

antidepressants for just under a year, I think? Ten months. Can you

:51:37.:51:40.

relate to some of what Leonie has described with Shane? Yes, I can.

:51:41.:51:47.

Out of nowhere... I was only on it for ten months but you get

:51:48.:51:51.

incredible feelings of rage that just turn up out of the blue, just

:51:52.:51:55.

sitting watching the TV or whatever you are doing, and I'm not really a

:51:56.:52:01.

violent guy. I knew that this was coming from somewhere really

:52:02.:52:07.

strange, and I put it principally and totally down to the drug, so

:52:08.:52:12.

rocks at. It is my belief that it is a very dangerous drug and although

:52:13.:52:16.

many tens of millions take it, there are many thousands where it goes

:52:17.:52:21.

wrong and they will either do violence to themselves or kill

:52:22.:52:28.

themselves. I think the medical authorities should really seriously

:52:29.:52:34.

look again at SSRIs, in particular the one I took that they should look

:52:35.:52:38.

at these things again. As you rightly say, millions of people take

:52:39.:52:45.

that particular antidepressants. There are various brands that if we

:52:46.:52:50.

described them as SSRIs. And Ryan, you have a very different

:52:51.:52:54.

experience. Yeah, it is horrible to hear about the other stories but my

:52:55.:53:00.

experience can only be described as positive and that's since I was 14,

:53:01.:53:04.

15, when I was first prescribed them and I was on citalopram. Positive in

:53:05.:53:12.

what way? The general effect, I really noticed the difference in how

:53:13.:53:16.

it changed how I was feeling about myself and my situation. I know

:53:17.:53:21.

there were conversations with parents and doctors before I was put

:53:22.:53:27.

on anything because I was quite young and I know even day today now,

:53:28.:53:34.

they I do believe help me get out of bed in the morning. Kirk, what is

:53:35.:53:40.

your recollection of the worst point in that 10-month period when you

:53:41.:53:49.

were on it? Once I started taking it, I entered another reality and it

:53:50.:53:56.

wasn't a very pleasant one. The rage, really ugly stuff. Probably

:53:57.:54:02.

the hardest bit was, my sister is a psychiatric nurse and she said, it

:54:03.:54:06.

is most probably the drug, because they have a lot of trouble with it

:54:07.:54:12.

in the psych wards. I said I would go cold turkey on it, which is what

:54:13.:54:19.

I did, and I realised I was seriously addicted. This stuff was

:54:20.:54:24.

incredibly addictive and that was harrowing, to tell you the truth. It

:54:25.:54:28.

was harrowing. I wouldn't wish that anyone. That was the hardest bit,

:54:29.:54:36.

coming off it. That's interesting. Let me read to messages from people

:54:37.:54:41.

who are watching you around the country. Dan says antidepressants

:54:42.:54:46.

interfere with your humanity, no surprise they can make your

:54:47.:54:50.

aggressive. Italy says, antidepressants don't make you

:54:51.:54:56.

violent. Playmate suppressed anxiety about already being a psychopath but

:54:57.:55:04.

they don't make them. And I was abroad, grandad was put on one SSRI

:55:05.:55:09.

and he turned wild and then to grabbing man around the throat. As a

:55:10.:55:12.

psychiatrist, professors and Westley, what is the view of the

:55:13.:55:18.

link between murder or murderous thoughts and violence,? People do do

:55:19.:55:28.

research in this area. Antidepressants have been around for

:55:29.:55:31.

40 years. Billions of people in this country and war around the world

:55:32.:55:34.

have been taking them so we have a good idea what the side effects are.

:55:35.:55:41.

It is difficult because I have been meeting with people who have been

:55:42.:55:48.

affected by suicide or homicide and I don't think you ever get over it

:55:49.:55:51.

died of a guy can talk about individual cases. Last time I was on

:55:52.:55:54.

this programme was to talk about the rise to the present prescribing,

:55:55.:55:57.

which has been going up very steadily for 25 years. Last year 66

:55:58.:56:03.

million work prescribed in England and Wales. At the same time, suicide

:56:04.:56:08.

rates over the same period have been gradually decreasing, except in

:56:09.:56:12.

times of austerity and depression. If there was a link at an individual

:56:13.:56:15.

level with that amount of prescribing going up, you would see

:56:16.:56:19.

different suicide rates, so I think people will probably understand that

:56:20.:56:24.

even a fairly small link, given about 11 cents of the population on

:56:25.:56:28.

these drugs, you would have seen an increase in suicide as well. So I

:56:29.:56:33.

think overall professional opinion is that the benefits of

:56:34.:56:37.

antidepressants outweigh the risks. And bearing that in mind, taking

:56:38.:56:41.

that time accepting that, of course that does not discount these

:56:42.:56:46.

individual examples. It certainly doesn't. Kirk has pointed out one of

:56:47.:56:50.

the problems of the antidepressants is that if you do go cold turkey,

:56:51.:56:55.

that's not a good idea. Anyone who is going to watch this programme

:56:56.:56:58.

tonight or is watching Stanley was thinking as a result of this that

:56:59.:57:02.

you should just come off antidepressants, that is really not

:57:03.:57:05.

a good idea and you can get unpleasant symptoms. You can do it

:57:06.:57:14.

slowly. Can I say one thing? Seroxat is made by a company called

:57:15.:57:19.

GlaxoSmithKline. On the packet, it said, this drug is not addictive. I

:57:20.:57:26.

would beg to differ. Obviously, the drugs company are not here to give

:57:27.:57:31.

their own side of the story. I think it is more withdrawal symptoms that

:57:32.:57:34.

people get and some people find them very difficult and have great

:57:35.:57:40.

problems coming off drugs so people who are thinking of stopping

:57:41.:57:42.

antidepressants, they should remember, first of all, don't do it

:57:43.:57:46.

abruptly and second, there is a genuine risk of relapse and

:57:47.:57:51.

depressive illness and that is incontrovertible and potentially

:57:52.:57:53.

serious so you really should think very carefully if you watch this

:57:54.:58:00.

programme tonight, which sounds a little difficult, before you do

:58:01.:58:04.

that. Those are absolute certainties. You can get withdrawal

:58:05.:58:07.

symptoms and you can have a relapse of your illness. Of the rest, I have

:58:08.:58:12.

to say most professionals are not particularly convinced. Thank you

:58:13.:58:18.

very much. Thank you all for coming in on the programme. The programme

:58:19.:58:26.

tonight is on BBC One at 9pm, BBC Panorama, and the drugs companies

:58:27.:58:29.

say millions and millions of people across the world have been helped by

:58:30.:58:33.

SSRIs. Let me bring you this breaking news

:58:34.:58:37.

to do with the challenge that Unison brought against what they said were

:58:38.:58:42.

expensive fees for workers to take a case for an employment tribunal. The

:58:43.:58:47.

Supreme Court has agreed to adopt Unison has won has challenged those

:58:48.:58:54.

fees, 1200 quid to take a case to an employment tribunal. The court found

:58:55.:58:57.

that the fees order, which introduced fees in 2013 for

:58:58.:59:01.

claimants bringing claims, is unlawful in both domestic and EU law

:59:02.:59:05.

because it has the effect of preventing access to justice. So the

:59:06.:59:13.

Supreme Court says that Unison's challenge to these fees means that

:59:14.:59:18.

the fees will have to go because it is unlawful. Much more reaction to

:59:19.:59:22.

that to come in the next half hour of the programme. The latest news

:59:23.:59:24.

and sport in a second but before that, the weather.

:59:25.:59:29.

Heavy rain has been moving steadily towards the east as we've gone

:59:30.:59:34.

through the course of this morning. Some lovely Weather Watchers

:59:35.:59:37.

pictures. It was a dumb start in Devon with a lot of cloud but as we

:59:38.:59:42.

push further east, it was drier but now the cloud is building and these

:59:43.:59:47.

pictures are courtesy of our Weather Watchers. You can see the amount of

:59:48.:59:51.

rainfall we have had. It has moved out of Northern Ireland, continuing

:59:52.:59:56.

across Scotland and north-west England, extending through Wales,

:59:57.:59:59.

down towards the Isle of Wight, and that is going to be pushing steadily

:00:00.:00:03.

eastwards through day, eventually clearing off into the North Sea, so

:00:04.:00:08.

behind it across northern England, a mixture of sunshine and showers but

:00:09.:00:13.

from the Washed through East Anglia, Kent, the Midlands down towards the

:00:14.:00:16.

Isle of Wight, still rain about it any more patchy in nature. In the

:00:17.:00:21.

south-west of England, it will dry up after this morning's rain, the

:00:22.:00:25.

same for Wales. Still some rain around at the moment, that clears

:00:26.:00:30.

eastwards and the sun will come out brightening up already across

:00:31.:00:33.

Northern Ireland but there are still a few showers dotted around. Behind

:00:34.:00:37.

the rain in Scotland, bright spells, sunshine and showers. By 4pm the

:00:38.:00:42.

ring will be and is constantly northern isles. Through the evening

:00:43.:00:46.

and overnight, the rain moves away from Orkney and Shetland. There will

:00:47.:00:49.

be a lot of dry weather but we also looking at a lot of showers across

:00:50.:00:56.

western Scotland and Northern Ireland, north-west England, Wales

:00:57.:00:59.

on the south-west and it is not going to be particularly cold, towns

:01:00.:01:03.

and cities staying in double figures. The reason for all the

:01:04.:01:06.

showers of this area of low pressure edging closer towards the

:01:07.:01:09.

north-west. You can see from the squeeze on the isobars it is also

:01:10.:01:13.

going to be windy. Touching gale force with exposure around the

:01:14.:01:19.

coasts, north-west Scotland, and the coastal Northern Ireland, quite

:01:20.:01:21.

possible. The showers merging to give longer spells of rain. You

:01:22.:01:25.

could hear the odd clap of thunder and see the odd hailstone but for

:01:26.:01:30.

the rest of the British Isles, a day of bright spells, sunshine and

:01:31.:01:33.

showers and you know the drill with showers, not all of us will catch

:01:34.:01:38.

one. 15 in the north to highs of 20 in the South. As we head through the

:01:39.:01:43.

rest of Thursday and into Friday, if anything the low pressure is dragged

:01:44.:01:46.

a bit further north westwards but still the squeeze on that isobars

:01:47.:01:51.

denote that it is going to be a breezy day, particularly close to

:01:52.:01:54.

the centre of low pressure, where the squeeze is the tightest. Again,

:01:55.:02:00.

showers squeezing across Scotland, some across northern England to talk

:02:01.:02:03.

a lot of dry weather across the course of the day to talk if you

:02:04.:02:09.

have outdoor plans, this may change. That has been oscillating this

:02:10.:02:11.

morning northwards and southwards so we think it is coming across parts

:02:12.:02:15.

of the south and south-west, possibly parts of south Wales,

:02:16.:02:20.

temperature is up to 20 wanted up by Friday and into Saturday, we have

:02:21.:02:25.

that rain scooting across southern counties as a showery future and we

:02:26.:02:27.

are back into sunshine and showers. Is the culture of abuse towards MPs

:02:28.:02:42.

completely out of control? MPs from all parties have been telling us

:02:43.:02:47.

about the type of intimidating and bullying messages they receive.

:02:48.:02:48.

Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

:02:49.:02:50.

Eat EXPLETIVE in hell, you Tory witch.

:02:51.:02:55.

Get out of my country, you ugly, racist EXPLETIVE!

:02:56.:02:58.

We will talk to one newly elected MP who said the 2017 general election

:02:59.:03:20.

was the most abusive and vindictive campaign he has ever been involved

:03:21.:03:22.

in. Sperm count has halved

:03:23.:03:25.

in the last 40 years. Of the linked to reduced sperm

:03:26.:03:43.

count. Smoking has an effect. And like of physical activity, stress,

:03:44.:03:50.

all of these factors that are also associated with poor health are

:03:51.:03:53.

factors that affect sperm production. And should the law be

:03:54.:04:02.

changed to make elderly drivers retake their test? We are asking

:04:03.:04:06.

because the number of people over 90 who hold a driving licence has

:04:07.:04:09.

reached the 100,000 mark for the first time. We will ask drivers what

:04:10.:04:14.

they think. Here's Ben Brown in the BBC Newsroom

:04:15.:04:20.

with a summary of today's news. New diesel and petrol cars are to be

:04:21.:04:30.

banned from 2040, as part of efforts to tackle air pollution. It heralds

:04:31.:04:36.

a move to all electric vehicles which currently only account for 1%

:04:37.:04:42.

of the market. There will also be a fund 's of over ?200 million to

:04:43.:04:49.

help. Michael Gove said the ban is needed to tackle climate change. We

:04:50.:04:53.

have to get rid of petrol and diesel cars off our roads of we want to

:04:54.:04:58.

make sure that we want to deal with their health problems that ebb

:04:59.:05:00.

pollution causes and to meet our climate change targets. The good

:05:01.:05:04.

news is that the car industry is already moving in this direction.

:05:05.:05:11.

Volvo and Many are both moving in this direction, and we have to as a

:05:12.:05:16.

Government help the car industry do the right thing.

:05:17.:05:18.

The Supreme Court is to rule on a challenge to the increase

:05:19.:05:20.

The legal battle is a challenge to the fees brought in June 2013

:05:21.:05:25.

in tribunals, which range from ?390 to ?1600.

:05:26.:05:42.

The office of National statistics said the economy grew by 0.3% in the

:05:43.:05:50.

last quarter. The increase is credited to the services sector.

:05:51.:05:53.

The High Court judge overseeing the case of the terminally ill baby

:05:54.:05:56.

Charlie Gard will decide today whether the child's parents can

:05:57.:05:59.

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital say that,

:06:00.:06:02.

in the interest of his care, he should stay where he is or be

:06:03.:06:05.

His parents have appealed for a specialist doctor to come

:06:06.:06:09.

forward so he can spend his final hours at home.

:06:10.:06:14.

The judge leading the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has

:06:15.:06:17.

told survivors he would "get to the bottom" of the tragedy

:06:18.:06:19.

Shouting broke out as residents expressed their anger ahead

:06:20.:06:23.

of the final consultation on what the investigation

:06:24.:06:25.

A final meeting will be held tonight on the scope of the investigation.

:06:26.:06:38.

At least 80 people were killed in the blaze.

:06:39.:06:45.

Princess Diana's brother says he was like two about Prince William and

:06:46.:06:47.

Prince Harry wanting to walk behind their mother's coffin. In an

:06:48.:06:51.

interview with the Today programme, he said it was a bizarre and cruel

:06:52.:06:57.

thing for the Princes to do. He also said the funeral procession was the

:06:58.:07:00.

most horrifying half an hour of his life. He was speaking as the 20th

:07:01.:07:05.

anniversary of her death approaches in August. I really wasn't thinking

:07:06.:07:09.

about the outside world, but it was impossible not to connect with the

:07:10.:07:14.

emotion coming from the crowd. It was so powerful. Pulsing through us,

:07:15.:07:25.

I think. It was so bizarre, the sort of crunching of our procession with

:07:26.:07:29.

the horses and carriage, and our footsteps, and then the incredible,

:07:30.:07:36.

crashing emotion coming in from every side. It was really

:07:37.:07:37.

horrifying. At least 10,000 people, including

:07:38.:07:40.

British holiday-makers, were moved to safety in the south of France

:07:41.:07:42.

during the night to escape rapidly A new blaze has broken

:07:43.:07:46.

out west of St Tropez. A number of campsites on the coast

:07:47.:07:52.

have been evacuated. More from mere 10:30am.

:07:53.:08:10.

Thanks for your comments. We will talk to newly elected MPs who have

:08:11.:08:13.

only been in the job for a month about the abuse they have

:08:14.:08:16.

experienced during the election campaign. One was elected this year

:08:17.:08:24.

and one was elected in 2015. Andy on Facebook: Sadly, MPs only have

:08:25.:08:28.

themselves to blame. It is hypocritical when they attack each

:08:29.:08:33.

other in the press. Their behaviour PMQs is disgusting. Also, in light

:08:34.:08:36.

of current events, you have to question their competence.

:08:37.:08:42.

Charming! Tim says: Perhaps if MPs behaved with more respect and

:08:43.:08:45.

civility in the House of Commons they might be treated with the same.

:08:46.:08:56.

Ian says: Ian says... I read this one earlier. If you are getting in

:08:57.:09:07.

touch, use the hashtag Victoria life. Now, sport.

:09:08.:09:12.

Adam Peaty, what a week it has been for himself. He was left stunned by

:09:13.:09:16.

his own performances as he continues to set the standard not just the

:09:17.:09:19.

Great Britain but for the whole world in the swimming pool. The

:09:20.:09:23.

Olympic champion beat his own world record twice in a single day, and he

:09:24.:09:28.

broke the 26-2nd mark for the first time. He goes into the final today

:09:29.:09:37.

looking to set an even faster time. This morning, I went 26.1, and I

:09:38.:09:41.

thought it would be hard to beat that. Tonight, I was like, get

:09:42.:09:49.

yourself up for it, do what you do. I will not waste an opportunity

:09:50.:09:53.

because I do not know if it will be my last. I

:09:54.:09:54.

just went out there and did what I do.

:09:55.:10:01.

James Guy couldn't defend his world title

:10:02.:10:03.

He finished in fifth, just behind fellow Briton Duncan Scott.

:10:04.:10:07.

Today there are seven Brits in individual final action,

:10:08.:10:10.

including Scott who goes again in the 100-metre freestyle

:10:11.:10:12.

Manchester United manager Jose Mourinho says that some clubs

:10:13.:10:16.

are paying far too much for players this summer.

:10:17.:10:18.

His team, of course, spent 75 million on Romelu Lukaku

:10:19.:10:20.

Last summer, they spent 89 million on Paul Pogba but the United

:10:21.:10:24.

boss believes smaller clubs are overspending.

:10:25.:10:28.

We spent a lot of money on the striker, and if we don't do

:10:29.:10:32.

That is obvious nowadays, especially for the strikers,

:10:33.:10:39.

Every club is getting players, investing a lot.

:10:40.:10:45.

Some clubs, obviously, they are paying too much,

:10:46.:10:48.

and by doing that, they create a very strange and out-of-control

:10:49.:10:52.

England's cricketers will look to regain the series lead

:10:53.:11:07.

when they face South Africa in the third test at the Oval

:11:08.:11:10.

They'll have debutant Tom Westley in the side,

:11:11.:11:13.

who comes in to replace the injured Gary Ballance.

:11:14.:11:15.

The Essex batsman will be making his England debut at the age of 28.

:11:16.:11:18.

It has probably started to sink in now. It has been a surreal few days.

:11:19.:11:26.

It is just the build-up, really. Come Thursday, I will be nervous, as

:11:27.:11:29.

expected, but I think the challenge for me is to replicate what I have

:11:30.:11:33.

been doing for Essex, and hopefully do that for England.

:11:34.:11:39.

British Cycling has influenced nearly three

:11:40.:11:40.

quarters of a million women, who weren't cycling previously,

:11:41.:11:43.

The sport's governing body says it's well on it's way to reaching it's

:11:44.:11:47.

target to get 1 million more women cycling by 2020, but two times

:11:48.:11:50.

Olympic gold medallist Joanna Rowsell Shand says some women

:11:51.:11:53.

Road safety - that comes up all the time. Fear of riding in a group

:11:54.:12:03.

comes up quite a lot, so some people feel that they are OK by themselves,

:12:04.:12:07.

but in a group, what if they can't keep up, there are a bit wobbly,

:12:08.:12:11.

things like that? Bike mechanics comes up all the time, that fear of,

:12:12.:12:16.

what if I get a puncture or something happens on my bike? How do

:12:17.:12:20.

I deal with that? If you are in a group, what if the group has to wait

:12:21.:12:22.

for me, if I'm too slow... And a quick reminder -

:12:23.:12:24.

if you do fancy picking up cycling or any other sport,

:12:25.:12:27.

go to the Get Inspired page MPs from all parties have been

:12:28.:12:30.

shedding light on the scale Many say that in last month's

:12:31.:12:48.

general election, it was off the scale.

:12:49.:12:49.

An inquiry into the issue was announced by the standards

:12:50.:12:51.

watchdog earlier in July, and began its

:12:52.:12:53.

Our reporter John Own has been investigating the type

:12:54.:12:56.

of abuse they receive - we bought you his full

:12:57.:12:59.

report earlier - here's a short extract clip.

:13:00.:13:01.

Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

:13:02.:13:03.

Here at Westminster, a lot of people are afraid that in the recent

:13:04.:13:24.

turbulence, the nature of the political conversation may have

:13:25.:13:27.

changed for the worse. MPs have told this programme about an emerging

:13:28.:13:30.

culture of abuse and intimidation in public life. This was the most

:13:31.:13:34.

abusive and vindictive campaign most of us have been involved with. It

:13:35.:13:38.

should never be part of the job to receive this level of abuse. All of

:13:39.:13:43.

them told us they had received some abuse online, ranging from the quite

:13:44.:13:48.

trivial to the very X Screen -- the very extreme. They all agree that in

:13:49.:13:53.

the last few years things have become worse. Simon Hart has been

:13:54.:14:00.

trying to further light on this problem, and he mainly blames

:14:01.:14:02.

activists on the left for the deterioration in the quality of

:14:03.:14:08.

debate. They are more active, there is more evidence of activity, in

:14:09.:14:12.

this election orchestrated from the than left from the right. It was not

:14:13.:14:16.

exclusively like that, I emphasise. Do you think there has been a change

:14:17.:14:20.

in the character of left-wing activism in the last few years that

:14:21.:14:24.

you would say is responsible for the rise in this type of language? That

:14:25.:14:28.

would be how it appears to me. On the other end of the spectrum,

:14:29.:14:32.

Labour's Kat Smith, a member of the Shadow Cabinet and a close ally of

:14:33.:14:38.

Jeremy Corbyn, has a different story to tell. What we saw from the Tory

:14:39.:14:42.

Party during the election was the singling out of, let's be honest,

:14:43.:14:47.

Diane Abbott, and some of the very personal attacks, I think, bordered

:14:48.:14:55.

on the racist. Are you saying the Conservative party has officially

:14:56.:14:59.

sanctioned race is campaigning against people like Sadiq Khan and

:15:00.:15:05.

Diane Abbott? I think when they campaign -- I think when the

:15:06.:15:08.

official campaign is using the wolf whistle politics that they did use,

:15:09.:15:12.

it almost gives permission for people who are racist online to take

:15:13.:15:17.

a step further and use the kind of threatening language we have seen

:15:18.:15:21.

directed at Sadiq Khan and Diane Abbott. Conservative Caroline Ansell

:15:22.:15:27.

lost her seat in the ultra-marginal consistency of -- constituency of

:15:28.:15:30.

Eastbourne after a hard-fought campaign in the election. You post a

:15:31.:15:34.

comment, and it can create a feeding frenzy for people who seem to be

:15:35.:15:44.

just waiting for you to have the temerity to talk about a success

:15:45.:15:47.

that you have managed to come through. Do you feel hesitant to

:15:48.:15:49.

express opinions because of a fear of a backlash you might get?

:15:50.:15:57.

I guess I have had a moment, if you moments where I've,

:15:58.:16:00.

you know, paused over posts, because I know what

:16:01.:16:02.

The government has recently asked the Committee for Standards

:16:03.:16:09.

in Public Life to interrogate this issue, and to make recommendations

:16:10.:16:12.

There are different interpretations, or what the balance is,

:16:13.:16:18.

or who is suffering the most, and so on, but the really

:16:19.:16:22.

interesting thing is across the parties in Westminster,

:16:23.:16:23.

nobody is actually saying this is an imaginary, got up thing.

:16:24.:16:40.

We're going to talk to three MPs in the moment but first we're going to

:16:41.:16:46.

the Supreme Court to to Clive Coleman. Unison has won its case

:16:47.:16:50.

against the fees you have to pay to take a case to tribunal.

:16:51.:16:53.

This is an absolutely huge judgment not just for Unison but for anyone

:16:54.:16:58.

who has taken an employment tribunal claim within the last... Since July

:16:59.:17:04.

2013 when these fees came in and they are pretty hefty fees, so in a

:17:05.:17:08.

simple case they will amount to something like ?390, in a more

:17:09.:17:13.

complex case 1200, if you want to appeal a further ?1600 and today the

:17:14.:17:17.

Supreme Court has unanimously ruled that these fees are unlawful because

:17:18.:17:21.

they have the effect of preventing access to justice and, in addition

:17:22.:17:25.

to that, they have also ruled unanimously that they are indirectly

:17:26.:17:30.

discriminatory in that, for instance, they discredit against

:17:31.:17:32.

women because a higher proportion of women bring the more complex type of

:17:33.:17:39.

claims. This is huge. It also means that the Government, who have given

:17:40.:17:43.

an undertaking to pay back all of these fees, we think something of a

:17:44.:17:46.

region of ?32 million worth of these, should they be found to have

:17:47.:17:50.

acted unlawfully, they have to now repay that money. With me as Dave

:17:51.:17:56.

Prentis, general secretary of union would Unison, which brought this

:17:57.:18:00.

claim. Pumas be thrilled. We really are to take thiss' work. We knew

:18:01.:18:04.

that these fees were unlawful from the beginning because these take

:18:05.:18:10.

low-paid, vulnerable workers and prevent them on having access to

:18:11.:18:15.

justice. In doing that, this Government has acted according to

:18:16.:18:19.

the Supreme Court, not only broken common law but the constitutional

:18:20.:18:24.

law of the United Kingdom. It is even broken the 1215 Magna Carta as

:18:25.:18:30.

well as European Union law. This is an absolutely tremendous victory,

:18:31.:18:33.

probably the biggest victory of a court in the whole history of

:18:34.:18:38.

employment rights in this country. And, of course, it means that the

:18:39.:18:40.

people who have made claims will get their money back but, of course,

:18:41.:18:44.

many people would have been put off bringing claims at all. This is the

:18:45.:18:49.

terrible part of it because we knew from day one that this was not just

:18:50.:18:53.

unlawful but immoral, that low-paid workers could be put in this

:18:54.:18:58.

position and be denied access to justice. Small amount involved but

:18:59.:19:01.

it may include racial discrimination, sex discrimination,

:19:02.:19:05.

fair pay, it may be unfair deductions from wages, it may be not

:19:06.:19:08.

having rest breaks, but vulnerable workers were having to pay ?1200

:19:09.:19:13.

just to get their case heard. They couldn't afford it, they couldn't go

:19:14.:19:18.

and there have been over those former careers many thousands of

:19:19.:19:22.

workers who may have been affected by this unlawful act. Thank you very

:19:23.:19:28.

much indeed. There you have it, Victoria. This is a very significant

:19:29.:19:32.

ruling and workers now across the country will know that they can

:19:33.:19:37.

bring a claim at an employment tribunal and it will not cost them

:19:38.:19:42.

any money. At the moment, those fees have been quashed. Thank you, Clive

:19:43.:19:49.

Coleman, live from the Supreme Court and we will bring new reaction in

:19:50.:19:53.

the next few minutes. Let's continue our conversation about MPs and the

:19:54.:19:56.

kind of abuse they have been receiving.

:19:57.:19:59.

Perhaps one woman who receives more abuse than any other politician

:20:00.:20:01.

is Labour's Home Affairs Spokesperson Diane Abbot.

:20:02.:20:03.

Speaking in Parliament recently she described the torrent

:20:04.:20:05.

of "mindless" racist and sexist abuse, including death

:20:06.:20:07.

We are not talking here about robust debate, however robust it is. We are

:20:08.:20:21.

talking about mindless abuse and, in my case, the mindless abuse has been

:20:22.:20:28.

characteristically racist and sexist. And just outline, I've had

:20:29.:20:36.

death threats, I've had people tweeting that I should be hung if,

:20:37.:20:42.

quit, they could find a tree big enough to take the fat... Waits.

:20:43.:20:47.

There was an EDL affiliated Twitter account, Bernd Diane Abbott, I have

:20:48.:20:53.

had rain threats, described as an ugly, fat black... And over again,

:20:54.:21:00.

one of staff said that when people ask her, what is the most surprising

:21:01.:21:04.

thing about coming to work for me, the most surprising thing for her is

:21:05.:21:10.

how often she has to read the word... And this comes in through

:21:11.:21:14.

e-mails, through Twitter, through Facebook. But where I disagree with

:21:15.:21:20.

the honourable gentleman - he seems to suggest that this is all a

:21:21.:21:24.

relatively recent thing around the time of the selection. That is not

:21:25.:21:28.

my experience, that really is not my experience. It is certainly true

:21:29.:21:34.

that the online abuse that I experience and others experience has

:21:35.:21:38.

got worse in recent years, and it does get worse at election time, but

:21:39.:21:44.

I don't put it down to a particular election. I think the rise in the

:21:45.:21:51.

use of online has turbo-charged abuse because 30 years ago when I

:21:52.:21:56.

first became an MP, if you wanted to attack an MP, you had to write a

:21:57.:22:02.

letter, usually in green ink, you had to put it in an envelope, you

:22:03.:22:05.

had to put a stamp on it and you had to walk to the post box. Now they

:22:06.:22:10.

press a button and you read file abuse which 30 years ago people

:22:11.:22:13.

would have been frightened to even write down. So I accept that male

:22:14.:22:20.

politicians get abuse, too, but I hope the one thing we can bring in

:22:21.:22:25.

this chamber is that it is much worse for women and I think as well

:22:26.:22:30.

as the rise of online, anonymity is the thing. People would not come up

:22:31.:22:39.

to B and attack me for being a... In public. They will do it online and I

:22:40.:22:43.

am telling you, this is not once a week, this is not Jeremy election,

:22:44.:22:48.

this is every day. My stuff switch on a computer, go go on to Twitter

:22:49.:22:52.

and see this stuff. We can talk now to two new MPs

:22:53.:22:56.

and one relatively new MP - Simon Clarke was elected

:22:57.:22:59.

as the Conservative MP for Middlesbrough South

:23:00.:23:01.

and East Cleveland last month. Christine Jardine, who was also

:23:02.:23:03.

elected this summer as the Lib Dem as the Labour MP for

:23:04.:23:06.

Birmingham Yardley back in 2015 Thank you very much for coming on

:23:07.:23:21.

the programme. Simon, I'm going to read you a couple of messages that

:23:22.:23:29.

you have received. Simon, F off, use sycophantic parasite. And another

:23:30.:23:32.

one, at what point in your childhood did you decide to be evil? What

:23:33.:23:38.

impact does that have on you? Well, they are certainly not the nicest

:23:39.:23:42.

things to receive and it is part of a litany of similar messages that I

:23:43.:23:47.

think MPs of all parties have received during the course of this

:23:48.:23:51.

campaign but there is no question, as Diane Abbott was pointed out,

:23:52.:23:55.

this is not something which stops when the election goes away. It is,

:23:56.:24:00.

I'm afraid, part and parcel of modern politics and it is not

:24:01.:24:04.

something we should accept, it is something we must challenge, and

:24:05.:24:07.

those organisations which are stoking it need to be pulled to

:24:08.:24:13.

account it And by that, you mean...? By that, I principally mean

:24:14.:24:17.

Momentum. They are the grassroots group that support Jeremy Corbyn.

:24:18.:24:22.

And you accept there are loads of groups, including groups on the

:24:23.:24:26.

right, as well, who target MPs? That is certainly the case. No group has

:24:27.:24:35.

a monopoly on hatred and the bigotry and the intolerance and the vile

:24:36.:24:39.

abuse which MPs of all parties have suffered is not something which any

:24:40.:24:46.

one group is solely responsible for, but I do believe that the way in

:24:47.:24:50.

which, if you like, the extraparliamentary left in British

:24:51.:24:55.

politics has been operating has dramatically worsened the tone of

:24:56.:24:59.

the debate and that's not just online. Is also the fact that... I

:25:00.:25:06.

mean, all but a handful of my post is a general election campaign were

:25:07.:25:11.

defaced or destroyed and I know that some of my colleagues had swastikas

:25:12.:25:19.

or faces carved out. I did not see that happening to my Labour

:25:20.:25:24.

opponents. Labour do have particular questions to answer on this

:25:25.:25:31.

question. Adam Taggart is for this party to a countertop Jess Phillips,

:25:32.:25:42.

you have had abuse from some Labour supporters, essentially from

:25:43.:25:48.

Momentum. I wouldn't say that it was specifically from Momentum, as

:25:49.:25:53.

momentum organise, it is from members of the public who perhaps

:25:54.:25:57.

identify themselves as Momentum all members of the Labour Party. I have

:25:58.:26:02.

no way of checking who is a member of which organisation. But I have

:26:03.:26:07.

received abuse from the left as much as I have from the right. I have

:26:08.:26:15.

also received abuse from the centre, so this goes all over and this has

:26:16.:26:25.

activists running into my election campaign of his shrieking at me,

:26:26.:26:28.

saying very sexist lines that are often use against me by right wing

:26:29.:26:33.

commentators, so I think that to say that it is any one group is not

:26:34.:26:37.

right to talk I'm just going to read a couple of messages that have been

:26:38.:26:41.

sent to you, and then I want you to tell our audience how it affects you

:26:42.:26:46.

and your family, because some people think, it is just words on Twitter,

:26:47.:26:50.

who cares? These are some of the things. I wouldn't even rain you,

:26:51.:26:58.

Jess Phillips. And another one, Zionist filth like Jess Phillips

:26:59.:27:01.

have caused more damage in this world than Anjem Choudary and should

:27:02.:27:06.

be imprisoned. That's nice, isn't it? The way that that makes me feel

:27:07.:27:11.

is tired, actually, is the reality. It makes me wonder why we bother

:27:12.:27:18.

doing all of the things that we do, and this is just like, aren't MPs

:27:19.:27:22.

absolutely amazing? But I work incredibly long hours, I'm away from

:27:23.:27:27.

my children and it just makes you feel like, what is it all for when

:27:28.:27:32.

all people can see - and sometimes it feels like all you get is abuse.

:27:33.:27:38.

It can be very demoralising. And my son goes on YouTube, like all

:27:39.:27:42.

children go on YouTube, and the kids in his class will look me up because

:27:43.:27:46.

they are interested in fact that I am an MP and what they see as a load

:27:47.:27:50.

of people talking about how they would or would not rape me. That

:27:51.:27:56.

makes feel pretty rough. Christine, you are a brand-new MP and have been

:27:57.:28:00.

the job just over a month and already get abuse? Yeah, but I agree

:28:01.:28:06.

with Diane Abbott. That is actually not new. One of the worst periods,

:28:07.:28:11.

certainly in Scottish politics, was during the independence referendum,

:28:12.:28:14.

when some of the abuse and intimidation that people were

:28:15.:28:17.

getting was as bad as anything we've seen. I think I've been lucky. I've

:28:18.:28:23.

had abuse, I've had nasty things said about me. You get false it up

:28:24.:28:31.

about you, but I haven't had to suffer anything like the scale of

:28:32.:28:36.

abuse that Diane Abbott has had... Does what you've received, sorry to

:28:37.:28:41.

interrupt, have an effect on your confidence or your ability to do

:28:42.:28:45.

your job? I think it could have an affect on your confidence. I've been

:28:46.:28:51.

lucky in that after a particular incident, where it was extremely

:28:52.:28:55.

upsetting, I got support from members of all political parties.

:28:56.:29:03.

What was that incident? Er, well, I like to think it started from the

:29:04.:29:05.

misunderstanding during the suspension of campaigning after the

:29:06.:29:12.

Manchester bombing, and an activist said on Twitter that I had been out

:29:13.:29:16.

campaigning when, in fact, I have been my husband's funeral. That kind

:29:17.:29:22.

of grew arms and legs and it is the sort of thing that I think you can

:29:23.:29:27.

get on Twitter because you have no means of regulating its. I'm not a

:29:28.:29:31.

great fan of regulation but if you were in a radio, TV, newspaper

:29:32.:29:36.

newsroom and you want to say something like that about somebody,

:29:37.:29:40.

you would have to check it out and the lawyers would say, you can't say

:29:41.:29:44.

that in case it is not true. But on Twitter, the point Diana was making,

:29:45.:29:49.

people just go online and they think it is easy and I think they get

:29:50.:29:53.

pulled into thinking that they are anonymous, nobody is going to see it

:29:54.:29:56.

and they don't think about the impact it has on the person, on

:29:57.:30:00.

their confidence, on their family - it is very upsetting for their

:30:01.:30:04.

family - and I think all political parties have got to take

:30:05.:30:08.

responsibility for it. There was no one party responsible. You can all

:30:09.:30:12.

take responsibility, US politicians can be more civil to opponents and

:30:13.:30:15.

colleagues in the House of Commons and outside. What else is needed,

:30:16.:30:17.

Simon? Undoubtedly, we have a role to play.

:30:18.:30:27.

I think it is incumbent upon people to look into their own hearts and

:30:28.:30:38.

think about what they are doing. I campaigned with my colleague in

:30:39.:30:50.

Redcar, and her speech was drowned out by Jeremy Corbyn supporters

:30:51.:30:58.

screaming Corbyn, Corbyn, over the top of her speech because she was

:30:59.:31:02.

seen to be disloyal. I think those people need to take a long, hard

:31:03.:31:05.

look at themselves, what they're doing, and whether they think that

:31:06.:31:12.

is remotely acceptable. Jess, what do you suggest? I look forward to

:31:13.:31:16.

taking part in the enquiry. I think the leaders of political parties

:31:17.:31:23.

need to call out specifically their allies who do this. When Theresa May

:31:24.:31:35.

gets a bump because the papers print things about her opponents, instead

:31:36.:31:40.

of saying, that is not the tone of debate we should be having and I

:31:41.:31:44.

don't care if it helps me, and they shouldn't be perpetrating it. She

:31:45.:31:47.

should call that out. Jeremy Corbyn should round up those people

:31:48.:31:51.

specifically and publicly who shouted and say, pack it in, this is

:31:52.:31:54.

not how we behave. The other thing we need to do is to reactivate love

:31:55.:32:01.

that only comes when politicians die. When Jo died, across the House,

:32:02.:32:07.

no matter the party, everyone was saying what a great and brilliant

:32:08.:32:11.

woman she was, and that is right, but why do we only hear those things

:32:12.:32:15.

when someone's dead? We have to learn to be civil and show respect

:32:16.:32:19.

to the other side, but openly show respect. We have enough that divides

:32:20.:32:25.

us. There is a chasm between us, so we don't need to be hoping that

:32:26.:32:28.

people get abuse. A final thought from you, Christine? There is a

:32:29.:32:34.

general culture that the parties need to be aware of, and we do need

:32:35.:32:39.

to also think about the way that quotes are used in the media, and

:32:40.:32:44.

just support one another. It is a good point about saying, we only

:32:45.:32:48.

seem to say nice things about people when they are no longer with us. I

:32:49.:32:53.

don't think that would do any harm, but we have to take responsibility

:32:54.:32:56.

for what is happening online and make it clear that we don't support

:32:57.:33:01.

it. We don't want it from our own activists. Finally, would it ever

:33:02.:33:11.

get to the point where the type of bullying, intimidation and abuse

:33:12.:33:14.

that you receive would be enough for you not to stand for election again?

:33:15.:33:29.

To be honest, it does affect me and makes me feel sad. You know, it

:33:30.:33:36.

gives me a power. It makes me realise we all have to make the

:33:37.:33:40.

world better, and it makes me stronger. Simon? I completely agree.

:33:41.:33:46.

We won't give in, but it is depressing. That's the word I would

:33:47.:33:52.

use - profoundly depressing. It will put good people off coming into

:33:53.:33:55.

Parliament, and that is hugely regrettable. It won't stop me.

:33:56.:34:02.

Christine? Know, in many ways, it makes you more determined not to let

:34:03.:34:09.

those people win. I worry that it will put good people off getting

:34:10.:34:14.

involved in politics. OK, thank you all, very much.

:34:15.:34:33.

As the number of drivers over the age of 90 tops 100,000 for the first

:34:34.:34:38.

time, there have been calls for them to be forced to retake the test. We

:34:39.:34:45.

will get the views of an experienced driver and a new driver.

:34:46.:35:02.

Our medical correspondent Fergus Walsh is here with more news about

:35:03.:35:08.

the Charlie Gard case. I think the judges moving to a decision that is

:35:09.:35:13.

probably that Charlie should go to a hospice. The parents absolutely

:35:14.:35:18.

don't want Charlie to die in the intensive care unit where he has

:35:19.:35:24.

been since October. The hospital has known for some time that they wanted

:35:25.:35:28.

about a week at home with him. Great Ormond asked around the country, is

:35:29.:35:32.

their rate paediatric intensive specialist who would be available to

:35:33.:35:39.

oversee that care? And they haven't found anybody. The reason for that

:35:40.:35:43.

is that Charlie's needs are rather complex. He can't breathe, he can't

:35:44.:35:51.

move, he is fed by a tube, and were simple issues like whether the

:35:52.:35:54.

ventilator would fit through the front door. The parents' lawyers in

:35:55.:36:01.

court yesterday said that when Charlie is having things done to

:36:02.:36:05.

him, they can manually give him oxygen for a few minutes, so that

:36:06.:36:12.

problem could be overcome. Great Ormond says he needs to be treated

:36:13.:36:16.

in a specialist centre, and they are worried that something could happen

:36:17.:36:22.

to him. The compromise of a hospice, I think, is likely to be the way

:36:23.:36:26.

ahead, although the judge said yesterday that he was really

:36:27.:36:32.

pleading with both sides, can you please reach a decision amongst

:36:33.:36:36.

yourselves? I don't want to give an order. I think it will be an order

:36:37.:36:41.

that Charlie is moved to a hospice. Then we get the question of how long

:36:42.:36:46.

he is in there before his ventilation is removed. Thank you,

:36:47.:36:56.

Fergus. We will talk about the UK- US trade deal next, and the big

:36:57.:37:03.

issue of whether chlorine washed chickens would be allowed to enter

:37:04.:37:07.

the UK under such a deal. One minister says yes, and another says

:37:08.:37:09.

no. We can speak now to our political

:37:10.:37:12.

guru Norman Smith, who can explain It seems a bit bizarre talking about

:37:13.:37:23.

chickens as the new front line in the battle over Brexit, but it has

:37:24.:37:27.

become a test case for the kind of deals we may or may not be able to

:37:28.:37:31.

do once we leave the EU. No deal bigger than that we hope to strike

:37:32.:37:37.

with the US, and that is where the chickens come in. Obviously, the

:37:38.:37:44.

Americans want access for their food and farming sector in any trade

:37:45.:37:49.

deal, but their chickens are cleaned after they are slaughtered in

:37:50.:37:55.

chlorine. That is to get all the germs and gunk off them. The

:37:56.:37:58.

difference is that in Britain and the EU, we say, no thanks. If you

:37:59.:38:03.

have to do that to chickens, what kind of conditions are you keeping

:38:04.:38:07.

them in? So we have banned chlorinated chicken. Those in favour

:38:08.:38:12.

of a trade deal here say we have to relax. The Americans eat chicken,

:38:13.:38:16.

they are fine, and in fact, their chickens are about 20% cheaper, it

:38:17.:38:21.

is just you row, namby-pamby nonsense. It is a bigger issue than

:38:22.:38:25.

just chickens, because, the argument goes, if we give on chlorinated

:38:26.:38:31.

chickens, we will probably give on things like GM crops, which ROK in

:38:32.:38:37.

the US but not OK in Europe, on hormone injected beef, which is OK

:38:38.:38:41.

in the US and not OK here. Interestingly, today, the new

:38:42.:38:46.

environment Secretary, Michael Gove, said very clearly that we won't do a

:38:47.:38:52.

deal with the Americans. We will just waved goodbye to any big

:38:53.:38:58.

crucial trade deal if it means giving ground on the chickens. Have

:38:59.:39:03.

a listen to what he said when he was asked by Nick Robinson on the today

:39:04.:39:05.

programme about this. Chlorinated chicken - should it be

:39:06.:39:08.

allowed? You're the man who ultimately,

:39:09.:39:13.

if you're still agriculture secretary when the deal is done,

:39:14.:39:15.

the man who will have to decide. We don't need to waste time on this

:39:16.:39:19.

- yes to chlorinated chickens or no? I made it perfectly clear -

:39:20.:39:22.

and, indeed, this is something which all members of the government

:39:23.:39:27.

agreed - that we're not going to dilute our high animal

:39:28.:39:33.

welfare standards or our high environmental standards

:39:34.:39:35.

in pursuit of any trade deal. So if the Americans say,

:39:36.:39:37.

"This super great deal," whatever Donald Trump's deal language

:39:38.:39:40.

is for it, "we've got to have access to our farmers,"

:39:41.:39:42.

Michael Gove says, "Well, Mr Trump, sorry, you can kiss

:39:43.:39:44.

goodbye to your trade deal"? Critically, we need

:39:45.:39:47.

to ensure that we do not That is a big statement by Michael

:39:48.:39:57.

Gove, because he is saying that no matter how big the deal, we just

:39:58.:40:02.

won't do it if it involves compromising of the chickens. What

:40:03.:40:05.

makes it more interesting is that is not the sort of music we are hearing

:40:06.:40:10.

from Liam Fox, the Cabinet minister who is supposed to be negotiating

:40:11.:40:13.

trade deals, because when he was asked on Newsnight last night about

:40:14.:40:15.

this, he was much more cautious. We don't need that regulation

:40:16.:40:19.

that the EU currently has. We will be prepared to accept

:40:20.:40:22.

whatever the chicken is washed in because we believe

:40:23.:40:25.

that is the right way to go, it makes food cheaper

:40:26.:40:27.

and it is a deal with the US? We will want to ensure

:40:28.:40:30.

that the scientific advice that we have ensures proper

:40:31.:40:32.

protection for British consumers, Well, it doesn't

:40:33.:40:34.

at the moment, right? The EU has a preventative strategy,

:40:35.:40:39.

so doesn't believe that chlorine washed chicken is the right thing

:40:40.:40:42.

to have in the EU. Will that change under

:40:43.:40:46.

Liam Fox's trade deal? Well, I can rule out that we will be

:40:47.:40:48.

dropping our standards and consumer protection or environmental

:40:49.:40:54.

protection or on animal welfare. These are all perfectly reasonable

:40:55.:40:56.

things for people to look at. Think on this: Next time you have a

:40:57.:41:18.

chicken burger, that is a signifier of all the difficulties we face in

:41:19.:41:21.

trying to negotiate new trade deals once we leave the EU.

:41:22.:41:24.

More on the news from the Supreme Court that the fees for taking a

:41:25.:41:31.

case to an employment tribunal, ?1200 and more in some cases, are

:41:32.:41:36.

unlawful and restrict access to justice, according to the Supreme

:41:37.:41:37.

Court. Let's get reaction. Now we can speak to Clara Mason,

:41:38.:41:49.

a teaching assistant and Unison branch official who is bringing

:41:50.:41:52.

an employment tribunal claim a member of the Independent Workers'

:41:53.:41:54.

Union who is taking his courier Your reaction? I think it is

:41:55.:42:05.

fantastic news. We had seen a 70% decrease in people taking tribunal

:42:06.:42:12.

action since it was included. People like me would never be able to go to

:42:13.:42:16.

court and stand up for what they believe if there were not changes

:42:17.:42:20.

like this. I welcome the changes and what the tribunal has said. You were

:42:21.:42:25.

taking your company to a tribunal anyway, despite the charges? If it

:42:26.:42:29.

were not for the help of the unions, I would never be able to afford

:42:30.:42:34.

that. Understood. How do you respond as an employment lawyer? It is a

:42:35.:42:41.

monumental day. I had to compose myself in the waiting room because I

:42:42.:42:45.

wanted to do a handstand. I don't know an employment lawyer who didn't

:42:46.:42:49.

think it was wrong to have fees. We all felt that it was morally the

:42:50.:42:54.

wrong thing to do, as a barrier to justice, but it didn't necessarily

:42:55.:42:56.

mean that the Supreme Court would hold that it was unlawful, so I am

:42:57.:43:01.

still reeling from the decision, and I can't wait to read the judgment.

:43:02.:43:06.

It is welcome news for people across the board, and hopefully it might

:43:07.:43:11.

help change some attitudes from employers as well. In what respect?

:43:12.:43:16.

In my experience, when the fees came in, I noticed that some employers

:43:17.:43:21.

were less willing to negotiate. Often, in a dispute, there is a

:43:22.:43:25.

resolution to be found. Because of the threat of a tribunal, so it is

:43:26.:43:31.

worth having mediation? Absolutely. We always try first to because it is

:43:32.:43:36.

better for both parties. When tribunal fees came in, there was

:43:37.:43:41.

this from employers which was, show me you really mean it - pay your

:43:42.:43:47.

fees. So it became harder. Cases which historically would have

:43:48.:43:49.

settled quite easily and quickly were running on for weeks and

:43:50.:43:54.

months. It definitely had an impact on attitudes from employers, and

:43:55.:43:57.

hopefully we will see that reversed. You say you can't wait to read the

:43:58.:44:02.

judgment. I can tell you, according to the Supreme Court judges, it was

:44:03.:44:07.

unanimous that it was unlawful in both domestic and EU law, and also

:44:08.:44:11.

indirectly discriminatory against women, because women apparently

:44:12.:44:15.

bring more complex cases. Is that correct? Yes. The fees ran into my

:44:16.:44:23.

extremes. The first type cost ?390 to run under the old regime, and the

:44:24.:44:29.

second, discrimination claims, ?1200, so significantly more

:44:30.:44:34.

expensive. There was evidence to support the fact that people

:44:35.:44:38.

bringing maternity and pregnancy discrimination claims, for example,

:44:39.:44:41.

sex discrimination claims, they couldn't even get off the ground

:44:42.:44:44.

with that level of fees. OK, thank you both for coming in. ?32 million

:44:45.:44:51.

in fees that had been paid already will have to be paid back, according

:44:52.:44:55.

to our correspondent. Let me bring you this news: Mark Dixie, who was

:44:56.:45:02.

serving a life sentence for the 2005 rape and murder of the teenage model

:45:03.:45:10.

Sally Anne Bowman, has pleaded guilty at Southwark Crown Court to

:45:11.:45:15.

rape, indecent assault and GBH charges relating to to make other

:45:16.:45:17.

women. serving a life sentence for the 2005

:45:18.:45:28.

rape and murder of the teenage model Sally Anne Bowman, has pleaded

:45:29.:45:34.

guilty at Southwark Crown Court to rape, indecent assault and GBH

:45:35.:45:37.

charges relating to to make other Your sperm count is declining

:45:38.:45:39.

and there are warnings that if it carries on at its current rate,

:45:40.:45:50.

humans could end up extinct. We are quite a long way away from

:45:51.:45:53.

that at the moment. Falling sperm count has been linked

:45:54.:45:57.

with exposure to chemicals used in pesticides and plastics,

:45:58.:45:59.

obesity, smoking, stress, diet, New research suggests that sperm

:46:00.:46:01.

count has dropped by more than 50% Earlier we spoke to Dr

:46:02.:46:05.

Hagai Levine, the leader researcher of the report,

:46:06.:46:09.

Professor Allan Pacey, Former Chair of the British Fertility Society,

:46:10.:46:11.

and Richard Clothier, who has been trying to conceive

:46:12.:46:13.

with his wife for over two years. Dr Levine told us what

:46:14.:46:16.

the study had uncovered. We found a dramatic, over 50%

:46:17.:46:20.

decline of two measures of sperm count, the sperm concentration

:46:21.:46:24.

and the total sperm count, a 50% decline over 40 years

:46:25.:46:30.

from 1973 to 2011, among men from Western

:46:31.:46:38.

countries and selected Furthermore, when we restricted

:46:39.:46:42.

the analysis to studies after 1995, to identify current

:46:43.:46:52.

trends, we found that the decline did not level off and

:46:53.:46:55.

even became steeper. OK, so the steepest

:46:56.:47:00.

climb is in the West. Is that partly because more studies

:47:01.:47:03.

are done in the West? We don't have enough data

:47:04.:47:07.

regarding the trends in And what are the other

:47:08.:47:12.

reasons for this steep decline in sperm concentration

:47:13.:47:20.

and sperm count? We know that the causes

:47:21.:47:31.

increase over time. First of all, exposure

:47:32.:47:33.

to man-made chemicals that harm male reproductive systems, both

:47:34.:47:38.

during development, in the foetal For example, chemicals

:47:39.:47:40.

like pesticides. This is, you know, an important

:47:41.:47:50.

suspect, especially as, obviously, genetics have

:47:51.:47:52.

not changed over time. We know that there is

:47:53.:48:00.

an obesity epidemic and we know that obesity

:48:01.:48:03.

is Smoking, especially smoking

:48:04.:48:04.

during the pregnancy, harms the development of the male

:48:05.:48:15.

foetus but also later on in life, and lack

:48:16.:48:17.

of physical activity, stress, all these things that are also

:48:18.:48:19.

associated with your health are factors that affect our

:48:20.:48:22.

sperm production, and men reproduce sperm every day by millions, so this

:48:23.:48:24.

is a good measure of the general More than that, recent studies

:48:25.:48:29.

that sperm count is a predictor of future

:48:30.:48:37.

mobility and mortality. Briefly, before I bring in our other

:48:38.:48:42.

guests, are you really suggesting that at some

:48:43.:48:44.

point in the future, human beings could be extinct

:48:45.:48:46.

as a result of the decline Frankly, that's

:48:47.:48:49.

a misquote of the media. I'm warning that we

:48:50.:48:54.

have now a problem, a clear problem, that

:48:55.:49:02.

was neglected so far. We have a problem of male fertility

:49:03.:49:04.

that is neglected, and this problem reflects

:49:05.:49:06.

a problem with men's health. OK. It needs to be started. Let me

:49:07.:49:23.

bring in Professor Allan pacey from Sheffield University. Is the logical

:49:24.:49:30.

conclusion from this study that if sperm keeps declining, then in the

:49:31.:49:36.

end human beings will be extinct? I guess at a very simplistic level

:49:37.:49:40.

that yes, if the decline is real and it continues to the same slope, then

:49:41.:49:47.

maybe one day men will run out of sperm. But I think that's a big leap

:49:48.:49:53.

at the moment and whilst I congratulate the doctor on this

:49:54.:49:56.

study, because I think it is really good, I think we need to be cautious

:49:57.:50:00.

about how we interpret it and what health messages we give out about

:50:01.:50:05.

adult men and pregnant women. How do you interpret it and what message do

:50:06.:50:09.

you want to give out? I've always been very sceptical about this. This

:50:10.:50:20.

study addresses many of my concerns about flaws in a previous study and

:50:21.:50:24.

some interest is piqued in whether or not we are actually seeing a real

:50:25.:50:29.

effect. If you were going to devise a study to answer the question as to

:50:30.:50:33.

whether sperm counts were declining, you wouldn't do it this way and it

:50:34.:50:38.

is, in fact, quite shameful that governments and research windows

:50:39.:50:41.

haven't put the money in to answer the question once and for all. They

:50:42.:50:46.

did in Denmark and the genera prospected study looking at every

:50:47.:50:51.

new 18-year-old military recruit over 15 to 20 years and they did not

:50:52.:50:56.

see a decline when they did that kind of prospective studies. Had we

:50:57.:51:00.

done that in many countries 20 years ago we would now know the answer for

:51:01.:51:07.

sure. So I think we still have to be cautious. I think men should not be

:51:08.:51:10.

alarmed this morning but I think it is a wake-up call. I think we need

:51:11.:51:14.

to invest more research effort into this question and really to get to

:51:15.:51:23.

the bottom of this. Let me bring in Richard, and he and his partner are

:51:24.:51:27.

going through IVF. Richard has been told he has a low sperm count. Good

:51:28.:51:32.

morning. How do you react to this study? I'm no medical professional

:51:33.:51:36.

but I'm not overly surprised, perhaps because I keep my ear to the

:51:37.:51:40.

ground for anything related to fertility issues, particularly male

:51:41.:51:44.

fertility issues, but I put a lot of work and effort into getting myself

:51:45.:51:49.

into is healthy position as possible, not because I'd seen

:51:50.:51:51.

categoric evidence being healthy was going to help my sperm but because

:51:52.:51:56.

of the more common sense that the healthier the position you are in,

:51:57.:52:01.

the more chance you are going to have of mitigating problems and, of

:52:02.:52:06.

course, if IVF treatment works, which it did for a second time

:52:07.:52:10.

around, it will not do the health of the baby any harm. And from low

:52:11.:52:17.

sperm count to older drivers! We have, outside the BBC. There is a

:52:18.:52:22.

story out today that suggests there are loads and loads and loads of

:52:23.:52:26.

drivers on Britain's roads over the age of 90. The figure has topped

:52:27.:52:32.

100,000 for the first time in this country, so obviously we are outside

:52:33.:52:36.

to talk to an older driver and he is called Colin Bradbury. He is 65 and

:52:37.:52:43.

is in this amazing car, which does not belong to us, despite the

:52:44.:52:51.

stickers on the side. He's on... He is a car with Jac Davies. I'm going

:52:52.:52:56.

to climb in. Hello, both of you. It is so nice to be here. My mother

:52:57.:53:02.

loves you! These convertibles are a bit tight. I love you, I think you

:53:03.:53:10.

are amazing. Shush! Hello, Colin. How are you? I am very well. You

:53:11.:53:17.

passed your test in 1952. Is that correct? Jack, you passed your test

:53:18.:53:22.

three weeks ago. Congratulations. So, the first of all, Colin, in that

:53:23.:53:30.

time, since 1952, any speeding fines, any misdemeanours? Yes, yes,

:53:31.:53:35.

yes, I've had three speeding convictions but the most recent one

:53:36.:53:41.

sent me on a speed awareness course, which led me to take an advanced

:53:42.:53:45.

driving test, so it has been a good thing. OK, let's talk a bit more

:53:46.:53:50.

about that. Also, I need to correct something. You've been driving for

:53:51.:53:56.

65 years, you are actually 84. I underestimated your age, but that's

:53:57.:54:01.

because you look so much younger! So, how did you find... Had you end

:54:02.:54:07.

up speeding a bit in that 50 mph zone? I just did. I hadn't noticed.

:54:08.:54:16.

I wasn't aware and I was not speeding badly, I was speeding and

:54:17.:54:19.

58, which is enough to get me convicted or sent on the speed

:54:20.:54:27.

awareness course. Which was useful? Very useful indeed. Colin, you've

:54:28.:54:31.

got all these decades' experience, including some things where it has

:54:32.:54:34.

gone wrong, which you have learned from. What would you say to Jack,

:54:35.:54:39.

who passed only three recent go? Well, I would say, firstly, you are

:54:40.:54:43.

at the beginning of a long road. I must sound like a boring old far but

:54:44.:54:47.

experience does count for quite a lot. But if you can do earlier run

:54:48.:54:55.

what I did more recently, and that is take driving more seriously, and

:54:56.:55:02.

I am talking... O, who has put the radio on? Oh, my gosh! The radio

:55:03.:55:09.

just came on automatically in this amazing convertible car! What was

:55:10.:55:18.

the question? Oh, don't worry about it! Jack, although you passed only

:55:19.:55:21.

three recent go, you have not been in a car yet, have you? Not yet. I

:55:22.:55:26.

wanted to have a look around first and see which was the right car and

:55:27.:55:30.

insurers for me, so I'm just having a look right now. Are you nervous,

:55:31.:55:37.

though? Er... A bit, in certain different ways, because I am new to

:55:38.:55:41.

all this, even though I have passed my test, everything is quite new to

:55:42.:55:44.

me, and there are different roads, because I learned in one specific

:55:45.:55:47.

Place, there are different roads that I will have to go down but I am

:55:48.:55:51.

all up for challenges and pushing myself to learn new things. What you

:55:52.:55:56.

think about the fact that there are now 100,000 people over 90 with a

:55:57.:56:01.

British driving licence? That is demographics, isn't it? I'm much

:56:02.:56:04.

more concerned about the fact that sometimes people think that age of

:56:05.:56:11.

itself makes one a worse driver. It can be, but it doesn't necessarily.

:56:12.:56:16.

In fact, the biggest danger on the road are really people in the age of

:56:17.:56:23.

17 to 24, as I was myself at that age. Sorry to interrupt it up you

:56:24.:56:26.

will know the people say, once you get over a certain age you should

:56:27.:56:30.

have to retake your driving test. I've done myself because I joined

:56:31.:56:35.

the Institute of Advanced Motorists and volunteered to take an advanced

:56:36.:56:37.

driving test it up Volunteering is one thing but people say it should

:56:38.:56:42.

be compulsory once you get over 65 or 70. I'm not sure about that. I

:56:43.:56:48.

would to take a loss of time to think about it. You are a young man.

:56:49.:56:57.

Sometimes young men when they pass their driving test don't have a

:56:58.:57:00.

great reputation when it comes to driving. Are you going to take it

:57:01.:57:05.

seriously? Yeah, definitely, because when you're driving, anything can

:57:06.:57:09.

happen and I kind of... Because a lot of 17 to 20-year-olds lose their

:57:10.:57:16.

lives because they are not reasonable on the roads, so I will

:57:17.:57:19.

definitely take it seriously. You've got to because you are going into

:57:20.:57:24.

the adult world so you need to take responsibility. OK. What do you

:57:25.:57:29.

think about petrol and Gisela cars being banned by 2040? I have seen

:57:30.:57:34.

that this morning. It won't concern me, of course! You never know, it is

:57:35.:57:43.

only 20 years awaited top It is hypothetical at the moment.

:57:44.:57:46.

Basically, it is a good idea. It is more likely to affect you, Jack.

:57:47.:57:53.

What do you think? Ooh! Exactly what you said, it depends on how it

:57:54.:57:56.

develops in the next few years so it might be good, it might be bad. You

:57:57.:58:01.

will end up, at one point, presumably, driving an electric car.

:58:02.:58:06.

It is good for the environment so I don't see why not. It will be good,

:58:07.:58:12.

definitely. Thank you both. Thank you, Colin. Sorry for getting your

:58:13.:58:16.

age from. Jack, lovely to meet you. Say hi to your mum, won't you?

:58:17.:58:21.

Have a good day. Back tomorrow at 9am.

:58:22.:58:34.

Madonna has launched her own range of booted orphans.

:58:35.:58:38.

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