26/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Our top story today: This programme has seen evidence that Kensington

and Chelsea Council was warned as early as 2010 that building

a new school at the base of Grenfell Tower could block access

to fire trucks and other emergency vehicles.

The fire brigades union has told us that some fire engines had huge

difficulties getting to the tower that night.

It now wants those access problems looked at as part

Also on the programme: Is the culture of abuse towards MPs

MPs from all parties have been telling us about the kind

of intimidating and bullying messages they receive.

Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

Eat EXPLETIVE in hell, you Tory witch.

Get out of my country, you ugly, racist EXPLETIVE!

We'll ask whether this kind of regular abuse MPs receive

will end up driving some of them out of politics altogether.

Plus, up to 60 reports of murder and thoughts of killing associated

with antidepressants have been received by the UK

medicines regulator in the last three decades.

I believe if he hadn't taken the Sertraline he wouldn't

Throughout the programme, we'll bring you the latest breaking

A little later, we'll hear claims that sperm is declining at such

a dramatic rate the human species could eventually become extinct.

Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

And if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

Our top story today: New diesel and petrol cars

are to be banned from 2040, as part of efforts to

The move will be announced by the Government this morning,

heralding a shift to all-electric vehicles, which now account for only

There'll also be a fund of ?255 million to help local

councils speed up efforts to combat emissions from diesel vehicles.

ARCHIVE: He drives up in a 1908 Model T.

We've come a long way in terms of design, but for 100 years we've

been relying on vehicles with an internal combustion engine

burning petrol or diesel, but is that about to change?

Several major car-makers including BMW, Volkswagen and Volvo have

already announced ambitious plans for electric cars, seen as a key way

of tackling air pollution, and now the Government

of petrol and diesel engines in the UK with a ban on sales by 2040.

It's part of a ?3 billion air quality strategy that also includes

?255 million to help local authorities cut pollution.

It will mean a ban on sales and production of new petrol

or diesel vehicles in the UK as well as a consultation

The move follows a similar pledge earlier this month

by President Macron of France where the ban will also

Campaigners are likely to complain that the Government hasn't gone far

enough or fast enough, while Labour is saying

are living in areas with illegal levels of air pollution and action

is needed now and not in 23 years time.

The Environment Minister, Michael Gove, speaking on the Today

programme, was asked whether more was needed to be done to tackle

I think it's important that we all gear up for a significant change,

which deals not just with the problems to health caused by

emissions but the broader problems caused in terms of accelerating

climate change. But I do accept the premise, which is that we also need

to take action now to deal with some specific health concerns which are

raised by particular types of emission, and which are

predominantly but not exclusively from diesel cars and other diesel

vehicles. Michael Gove, the environment

Secretary. Ben Brown is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary The High Court judge overseeing

the case of the terminally ill baby Charlie Gard will decide today

whether the child's parents can Doctors at Great Ormond

Street Hospital say that, in the interest of his care,

he should stay where he is or be His parents have appealed

for a specialist doctor to come forward so he can spend his final

hours at home. The judge leading the inquiry

into the Grenfell Tower fire has told survivors he would "get

to the bottom" of the tragedy Shouting broke out as residents

expressed their anger ahead of the final consultation

on what the investigation We're not here to fight

each other, brother. And more than once, the inquiry

chair, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, We are not going to get anywhere

if you all talk at once. Well, this meeting has broken up now

after almost three hours of talking. It has been fractious

at times, emotional too. I think what the inquiry panel can't

have failed to take away is the frustration and anger that

still exists here and the fact that some people don't have faith

in their ability to do You know, quite honestly,

I don't know why we have an inquiry that the so-called chair,

who's a judge, cannot compel We need to see that they

are representative, that they are going to understand

the pain, the humanitarian issues, because they're all very

relevant in this as well. The main reason people

are angry is because they're Now whether that was the right forum

to get those answers is questionable, but the fact

is that people are There is a lot of emotion

and I entirely understand We're going to continue to work

with them and hope that by careful preparation and discussion,

and so on, we can make them realise that we can give them

justice by finding out Today, there's another meeting,

when residents can question But six weeks after this fire,

there's little sign of things Two men have been targeted

in a suspected acid The Met Police said the men,

thought to be in their late teens, flagged down officers

in Bethnal Green early Police said it was still not known

what liquid was thrown at them. MPs from all parties say

they experience regular trolling They say they're targeted

for their sexuality, religious beliefs and social

background by people who were intent on "driving them out

of politics altogether". An inquiry into the issue

was announced by the standards watchdog earlier in July,

and began its We'll be speaking to some MPs

about their experiences The US House of Representatives has

voted to impose fresh sanctions on Russia,

despite President Donald Trump Senior officials will be targeted

in retaliation for alleged Russian interference in the 2016

American election. The measures will also

see fresh sanctions against North Korea and Iran over

ballistic missile tests. The Supreme Court is to rule

on a challenge to the increase The legal battle is a challenge

to the fees brought in June 2013 in tribunals, which range

from ?390 to ?1600. The cost of the fees has resulted

in a huge reduction of cases. The Supreme Court is expected

to make their judgement Humans could become extinct if sperm

counts in men continue to fall at current rates,

a doctor has warned. Researchers assessing the results

of nearly 200 studies say sperm counts among men from North America,

Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, seem to have halved

in less than 40 years. They point to exposure to chemicals

as a possible cause. At least 10,000 people, including

British holiday-makers, were moved to safety in the south of France

during the night to escape rapidly spreading fires. A new blaze has

broken out West of St Tropez. A number of campsites on the coast

have been evacuated. Princess Diana's brother says he was

lied to about Prince William and Prince Harry wanting to walk behind

their mother's coffin. In an interview with the Today programme,

he said it was a bizarre and cruel thing for the Princes to do. The

funeral procession was, he said, the most horrifying half an hour of his

life. He was speaking as the 20th anniversary of her death approaches

in August. The number of people over 90

who hold a driving license in Great Britain has topped 100,000

for the first time. That's according to data

revealed by the DVLA. Currently drivers aged 70 and over

are required to fill in a self-assessment form

every three years. They must declare that

their eyesight meets the minimum standard,

but some think the law should be changed and they

should be re-tested. On abuse RMP is, one viewer says:

These people should be punished and should be behind bars. Anthony says:

We have to remember that MPs are human, sort of! And another viewer

says: They need to get over themselves. Paul says, on Briton

they might consider not screaming at each other like three-year-olds

during PMQs. Hughes is with us with this poor, and Adam Peaty is on

fire! Well, he's an incredible athlete -

already, at the age of 22, we are talking about Adam Peaty

as if he could well become Britain's He's already won a gold medal

at the World Aquatics Championships Yesterday morning we mentioned

a new world record in the 50 metres breastroke heats

and last night he only Another world record

in his semifinal last night, and with it, the defending champion

became the first person to go If he wins this afternoon's final,

he'll repeat his double world title And you wouldn't bet

against him doing it, especially as yesterday he said

he was actually lacking in energy. This morning I went 26.1

and I thought it was going to be Coming out there tonight I was a bit

down because it's been such an emotional few days but I thought,

right, get up for it and do what I do and Mel said don't waste

an opportunity because you don't know when is going to be your last

so I just went out and did And that is the fourth time he's

broken the world record for the 50 metres breast stroke,

so fingers crossed things go perfectly for him in Budapest

a little later on. It is not just about medals, he is

now trying to take the sport as far as he can.

Football transfer fees have been huge for years and they are

continuing to go up what? Yes, everyone is hoping to improve their

team, but at what cost? The figures being spoken

about for transfers this We've seen Manchester United spend

?75 million for striker Manchester City have

spent over ?200 million already this summer,

including 45 million on England defender Kyle Walker from Spurs,

and it's already become acceptable it seems, to see prices of 50,

60 or 70 million routinely discussed when it comes

to Premier League football. According Tottenham's chariman,

Daniel Levy, it just isn't. He's well known for his smart

business sense and he says the overspending of some

clubs will "eventually Last summer, Jose Mourinho made

the world record transfer to bring Paul Pogba to Old Trafford

for ?89 million. Despite his level of spending,

he takes a similar view to Levy. We spent a lot of money on the

striker, and if we don't do that, we have no striker. That is obvious

nowadays, especially for the strikers, the amount of money is

amazing. Every club is getting players, investing a lot. Some

clubs, obviously, they are paying too much, and by doing that, they

create a very strange and out-of-control market, but this is a

reality now. And Mourinho went on to say

it was the smaller clubs who faced the real problem,

rather than the likes of Manchester United who could find

themselves in financial trouble. For now at least, it seems that

trend is set to continue. More from Hugh throughout the

morning. Is our political culture getting

steadily more and more abusive? MPs from all parties say

they experience regular trolling They say they're targeted

for their sexuality, religious beliefs and social

background by people who were intent on "driving them out

of politics altogether". An inquiry into the issue

was announced by the standards watchdog earlier in July,

and began its This programme has been speaking

to MPs about their experiences of campaigning and holding office,

to get a sense of how Caroline Ansell is as bad

as Isis, and Hitler. Get out of my country,

you ugly, racist...! Want to see your head

swinging from Tower Bridge. Simon Hart, you're a...,

go get in the bin, I hope You...Muslim, fascist...,

we voted Brexit, and Article 50 Over the past few years,

the UK's been caught up Every week seems to bring

a new twist in the plot of a sometimes thrilling,

sometimes chaotic political drama. But here at Westminster,

a lot of people are afraid that in the recent turbulence,

the very nature of our political conversation may have

changed for the worse. This was the most abusive

and vindictive election campaign most of us have ever

been involved with. MPs have told this programme

about an emerging culture of abuse It should never be part of the job

to receive this level of abuse. I've had death threats,

I've had people tweeting that I should be hung,

I've had rape threats, described as a pathetic,

useless, fat, black... And, as well as the interviews

you'll see in this film, we've spoken to a lot of MPs

off the record. Almost all of them told us

that they'd received at least some abuse online,

ranging from the quite trivial But the question is how

serious is this problem? Is what we're seeing just

predictable part of passionate debate in fractious times,

or is it something new and different that could even represent a threat

to the very fabric of our democracy? There's an awful lot at stake

here in the maintenance This is about sweeping opposition

out of politics altogether. And the day that we've come to,

you know, that we've don't feel that they can say

what they think, that's actually Conservative MP Simon Hart has

been trying to shine a light on this problem,

and he, at least, is convinced that in the last couple of years, things

have become dramatically worse. Because I've been involved

in elections of one sort or another for ten or 15 years,

and this one was very different. Different where I live, different

for colleagues all over the UK, and a real difference

between 2015 and 2017. This was not an ordinary election,

it was vitriolic, dishonest, unpleasant, not for politicians

necessarily, we're meant to be used to that kind of thing,

but for everybody around us. To your mind, is this something that

affects politicians on the right of politics more than those

on the left, or is it From my own personal experiences,

and the ones I was picking up from colleagues, I think

there is a more active, there is more evidence of activity

in this election orchestrated from the left than from the right,

but I emphasise it was not And so do you think, then,

there's been a change in the character of left-wing

activism in the last few years that you would say is responsible

for the rise in this Well, that would be how it appears

to me, yes, and, you know, one of my bugbears in all of this

too is political leadership, and that's left and right, but also

leadership of political movements. Organisations like Momentum,

or like the trade unions, although they occasionally say

that they condemn these activities, there isn't a lot of evidence

that they really mean One of the big differences

between Conservative and Labour, I observe, is that my party sees

Labour as the opposition. Isn't it right to say that

Jeremy Corbyn in particular has consistently condemned any kind

of abusive or personalised attacks Well, I would say yes, he has,

he is on the record as saying this is not how he wishes to,

you know, what he wishes My question, though,

is a bit more than that, it's OK, what have you done,

Jeremy, apart from sending out the odd tweet, what have

you done to stop this? Has there been a single member

of the Labour Party or Momentum or trade unions who's actually been

reprimanded, sanctioned, kicked out for this kind of thing,

where it's been provable? Now, the fact is there has been no

answer to that question, so actually if they want to be

serious about this, they've got to do more than just

pay lip service to it. They've got to do

something about it. We don't want to stifle free speech,

we don't want to stifle debate, we actually want to bring this back

to an acceptable level, which means people can

challenge us properly... It's clear Simon Hart,

like other Conservative MPs we've spoken to,

holds left-wing activists primarily responsible for the recent rise

in abusive language directed But on the other end

of the political spectrum, Labour's Cat Smith, a member

of the Shadow Cabinet, and a close ally of Jeremy Corbyn,

has quite a different story to tell. The abuse that I receive

personally tends to come Sometimes they're organised,

sometimes they're not. The organised groups tend to be

groups like Britain First, the EDL, and Combat 18,

who are very threatening. And you mention that women tend

to get it worse than men, do you think that there

is a misogynistic element to a lot of the abuse of tweets

and things that you get? There's absolutely no doubt that

women MPs are receiving far more abuse than their male counterparts,

and of the women MPs, I'd say they're MPs who are black,

ethnic minority or Jewish tend to get far more abuse

than white women MPs, and I'm very aware that by doing

this interview I'm probably lining up quite a few trolls to come

and greet me on social media over Really, so you have a sense that

just from doing this and speaking out about this kind of abuse,

you're likely to attract Absolutely, I don't doubt that women

MPs who then start to speak out about their abuse suddenly become

a target for more trolls, but the point is that some

of us have to speak out. Cat agrees with Simon Hart

that the 2017 campaign But she has a very different idea

of who was responsible. What we saw from the Conservative

Party during the election was the singling out of,

let's be honest, Diane Abbott, and some of the very personal

attacks I think bordered on the racist during

the Conservative Party's official campaign, and this is in line

with what happened in the London mayoral election,

where Zac Goldsmith's official campaign, I think, was bordering

on the racist against Sadiq Khan. So are you saying that

the Conservative Party has officially sanctioned racist

campaigning against people I think when the Conservative Party

campaign, official campaign, is using the wolf whistle politics

that they did use, it almost gives permission for people

who are racists online to take that a step further and use the kind

of threatening language which we've seen directed at Sadiq Khan

and Diane Abbott. Conservative Caroline Ansell

lost her seat in the ultra-marginal constituency of Eastbourne,

after a hard-fought campaign She is particularly worried that

certain political perspectives are being suffocated by abusive

and threatening language online. Give us a sense of how frequently

you would receive comments online, or messages that you would consider

to be abusive. You know, you post a comment

and then it can create a feeding frenzy of people who seem to be just

waiting for you to have the temerity to talk about a success that you've

managed to come through, or someone that you've championed,

just that sort of instant backlash. And that can be all the way

through from just trying to sort of demoralise or diminish

or discredit, all the way through to, you know,

very hostile comments And as a campaigning politician

on the right of politics, do you ever feel hesitant to express

opinions online, because of a fear I guess I have had a moment,

if you moments where I've, you know, paused over posts,

because I know what But, actually, the experience I've

had has made me more determined to step out,

more determined to speak up, and I think that's, you know,

really and truly the only forward. You cannot be dismayed by it,

you need to fight them for something that's really important,

and that's freedom of speech. But Caroline has experience

of something more serious One man used Facebook

to issue a sinister threat. Yeah, a local man, essentially

he said he'd kill me. He said he knew where I lived,

he said he had a knife, and he was very angry about a vote

in parliament, and if I persisted, He was arrested and tried and

convicted, and spent time in prison. Do you think there's something

about the tone of political debate at the moment that made that guy

think it was somehow OK to issue The man was subsequently released,

but on the day of our interview, Caroline said that the same man

was once again posting abusive Back at Westminster,

Labour MP Rupa Huq told us about an incident at the 2015

election where campaigning got physical, but she also explained how

certain hot button issues can Abortion, that kind of thing,

is one of them, that it I mean, it seems a long way

from Ealing and Acton Jewish MPs also have been

subject to awful abuse, and I think, you know,

probably Muslim women Rupa rejects any suggestion

that the rise in the abuse is exclusively down to activists

on the left. I mean, I think that this is a sort

of smear campaign against us, really, because, you know,

the things on social media, I think any kid going to look

at a pop video on YouTube would have seen stuff about Jeremy Corbyn

being a terrorist sympathiser, all these things they were trying

to pin on him, which was not true. The government has recently asked

the Committee for Standards in Public Life to interrogate this

issue, and to make recommendations We have a mood surrounding a normal

operation of Parliamentary democracy, which is not the normal

British mood. There are different interpretations,

or what the balance is, or who is suffering the most,

and so on, but the really interesting thing is across

the parties in Westminster, nobody is actually saying this

is an imaginary, got up thing. It's slightly reminds me,

I'm old enough to remember the period before the Troubles

began, and actually the tone of some of those things

is actually quite similar, eerily significant to some

of the things that we've been talking about in the press

in recent weeks. So you've said that we might be

approaching a tipping Can you say a bit about

what you meant by that? Well, I mean, when I talk

about a tipping point, I mean that it becomes commonplace,

and we accept that this, I hope, temporary spike upwards in recent

times of abuse and intimidatory rhetoric and practice towards people

seeking public office, that we come to accept this

as the norm. And one of the issues

here is the possibility that the volume of abuse is not

neutral in its effects, that it is actually tending

to intimidate certain types of people and reduce

diversity in our public life. But the thing I think

above all I want to say is that we do accept that

a characteristic of British political debate is its vigour,

and it's sometimes very strident. Strident and vigorous political

debate is not something We have a strong understanding

of the fact that the vitality of the British political debate

is something that we When you discuss this issue

with politicians on the right, it usually isn't long before

the left-wing campaign group I think across politics there has

been a rise in abusive language, and it's a serious issue,

and I think as an organisation, Momentum sees that all political

organisations need to work together When we talk to politicians

on the right, particularly Conservative MPs, very often

when they're talking about abusive language being used online,

they mention Momentum. Why do you think it

is that they do that? I mean, they may mention it,

but none of these politicians have made any complaints to us

as an organisation, they haven't We have a very, very

clear code of ethics, which sets out the rules

for all Momentum members, and they sign that when they become

members, and if any of them break that, we have procedures

to deal with that. So, you know, if there

is evidence of Momentum members being involved in such activity,

we take that very seriously. And what action do you take

when it's proven to be the case that a Momentum member has engaged

in abusive language online? We have very, very,

very few cases of this, but we have a procedure we follow

to ensure that, if a member does that, then they will be suspended

or expelled from the organisation. It's hard to know for sure

what's going on here. One recent study found that fully

50% of all abusive tweets directed at politicians were targeted

at a small group of very high profile individuals,

with Jeremy Corbyn himself receiving The same study also found that male

Conservatives were the group most likely to receive abusive tweets,

although, importantly, those with a high profile

attract more abuse, and there are significantly

more high-profile men in politics than women,

so we shouldn't read Most people we've spoken

to ultimately acknowledge that this is a problem that affects all parts

of the political spectrum. But the choice now facing our

elected representatives is whether they allow this to become

yet another party political squabble, or whether in very divided

times, enough unity can be found All main political parties say

there is no place for intimidation, Later in the programme,

we'll speak to some newly elected MPs about their experiences over

the last month. Is one viewer says: I feel despised

and hated by MPs. Fiona: Threats and violence have no place. Another

viewer says: The if you don't believe me then you are an enemy

type of politics is fuelling it. John says: It is hard to empathise

or offer sympathy to MPs when they are renowned for being a litres, and

once elected, quietly ignoring the will of the people.

Later, we will talk to the newly elected MPs about their experiences.

Kensington and Chelsea town were warned in 2010 that is building a

school next to the tower could block access for fire service vehicles.

And: Reports that an antidepressant could have played a role in one of

America's worst shootings. Now, the news headlines with Ben.

New diesel and petrol cars are to be banned from 2040, as part of efforts

The move will be announced by the Government this morning,

heralding a shift to all-electric vehicles, which now account for only

There'll also be a fund of ?255 million to help local

councils speed up efforts to combat emissions from diesel vehicles.

Environment Secretary Michael Gove said the change is needed

We have to get rid of petrol and diesel cars from the roads to make

sure that we deal not only with their health problems that air

pollution causes, but to meet climate change targets. Volvo and

Mini are moving in this way. It is critically important that we provide

the encouragement from Government to help the car industry do the right

The High Court judge overseeing the case of the terminally ill baby

Charlie Gard will decide today whether the child's parents can

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital say that,

in the interest of his care, he should stay where he is or be

His parents have appealed for a specialist doctor to come

forward so he can spend his final hours at home.

The judge leading the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has

told survivors he would "get to the bottom" of the tragedy

during a second public meeting Shouting broke out as residents

expressed their anger ahead of the final consultation on what

Also this programme has learned that Kensington and Chelsea Council

were warned as early as 2010 that a new secondary school at the base

of the Tower could block access to emergency vehicles.

At least 10,000 people, including British holiday-makers, were moved

to save 30 -- moved to safety last night to escape rapidly spreading

forest fires. The fires have broken up west of St Tropez, and campsites

have been evacuated. Princess Diana's brother has said he was lied

to about Prince William and Prince Harry saying they wanted to walk

behind their mother's coffin. The funeral procession, he said, was the

most horrifying half an hour of his life. He was speaking as the 20th

anniversary of her death approaches in August.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

Some more messages from you about the kind of abuse that politicians

received. This one says: The rise in abuse at the tax goes hand-in-hand

with unfulfilled expectations and a great sense of entitlement.

Politicians need to realise that things are as they are, so get a

grip on tempers and calm down. Jane says: I would like to point out it

is not just MPs who suffer abuse. Their staff usually pick up the

messages and have to deal with the often vile comments. Ian says: I

don't condone any racist nonviolent comments against anyone, but the

recent issue about MPs' pay causes legitimate concerns about their

professionalism. -- racist and violent.

Adam Peaty continues to push the boundaries in a swimming pool.

The Olympic champion beat his own world record in the

50-metre breaststroke twice in one day, breaking the 26-second

He goes in the final today looking to set an even faster time.

Former Olympic long jump champion Greg Rutherford says he's devastated

that he'll miss next week's World Championships in London

There's been more criticism of the Rugby Football Union's

decision not to renew the contracts for all of England's

The Shadow Sports Minister, Dr Rosena Allin-Khan,

executive Ian Ritchie expressing her "deep concern".

And Chelsea's record signing Alvaro Morata made his debut

He set up this goal, but couldn't stop them going down

3-2 in a preseason match against Bayern Munich.

That is all the sport for now. I will be back just after 10am.

The economy grew by 0.3% during the second quarter of this year,

according to the office for National statistics. That just in.

Kensington and Chelsea Council was warned as early as 2010 that

building a new school at the base of Grenfell Tower could block

access to fire trucks and other emergency vehicles.

That's according to documents seen exclusively by this programme.

Fire fighters have said that during the blaze "access

was an issue" with "huge difficulties" getting

Our reporter Jim Reed has this story.

This goes back almost a decade, to 2008, and plans to build this school

here. This is Kensington Academy, right at the foot of Grenfell Tower

itself. It has a capacity of 1000. We want to show you satellite photos

that give you an idea of how a building that school change the

area. It takes a while to take in, but this is a top- down view of the

site. This is the roof of Grenfell Tower before the fire. This large

building here is the Academy. This is a leisure centre that was also

rebuilt as part of these plans, and this would have been one of the

access routes for firefighters that day, you would have thought. Let's

look back to see how this area changed. In 2013, you can see, this

is when the building work was taking place. It was a large development, a

lot of money going into it. If we look back further at how the whole

area would have looked before in 2010, this gives you an idea of why

residents were upset about this. This car park was demolished to make

way for the Academy. First, this could have prevented emergency

vehicles getting to the site more directly. And by losing these

parking spaces, they said a lot of cars were pushed into the

surrounding roads, and that could have also made it more difficult for

emergency vehicles to get through. We know the Academy was built

anyway, wasn't it? That's right. It opened in 2014. A lot of resistance

to this Academy. 318 letters, we understand, opposing the

construction, and just two in support. Lots of the residents we

spoke to felt that the whole area was congested anyway, and they were

going to lose green space as well as that car park as part of these

plans, and it could potentially stop emergency vehicles reaching the site

easily. We have been passed a letter written to the council in 2010 by

someone on the Grenfell Action Group, the residents' committee

which looks after the error. It says: -- that looks after the area.

Clearly, there were concerns ahead of the construction of the Academy

building. On the night of the blaze itself? We know it was busy,

chaotic. 45 engines attended at one point, 200 firefighters, and then

the other emergency vehicles on top of that. People we have spoken to

are saying, look, access was a particular issue on the night. We

spoke to Lucy Masoud, a senior official at the Fire Brigades Union,

and she spoke to us about the huge difficulties, as she puts it, faced

by some firefighters trying to get to the tower that night. The streets

around here are quite narrow. Add to that is that there were cars parked,

it certainly was an issue for us. At the start of the incident, when our

fire engines arrived, we needed access to the dry riser, which is

where we set in and produce water for the building. We know that we

had access problems there. What sort of problems? Cars and bar lives?

Absolutely. One of the main issues was getting past the parked cars.

The roads are quite narrow around here, and then there are cars

parked, getting our five engines is close to the building as they need

to be to access water and get our firefighters into the building as

quickly as possible, whenever is an access issue, it has a huge impact

on our ability to fight the fire. Our firefighters were having to go

into the building is six or seven times, when legally we are only

allowed to go into my fire twice the cause of the impact on our bodies,

so we were giving in half a dozen time because of the resources.

Bollards were supposed to be able to retract, but they weren't, they were

permanent. That would have given us more room to get closer to the

building. The green spaces have been built over with various buildings,

and that affected our ability to get our fire engines here. Lucy Masoud

from the Fire Brigades Union. The union now say it once access

included in the enquiry. Eyewitnesses were critical, because

of what they saw one the night. Interestingly similar accounts from

eyewitnesses to the account you just heard from Lucy. Just after the

fire, we both spoke to Lucy we both spoke to Mahad, a resident

and an eyewitness. We were the first few people, and we saw the fire

brigade and emergency services. We thought it could be tackled, that

half the building wouldn't be affected. Though what bollards that

were blocking -- vert there where pollard is blocking the access. That

account came a few hours after the fire, so Mahad would not have been

able to read newspapers or watch TV news reports. Other eyewitnesses we

spoke to had similar accounts. Yesterday, we spoke to a Reverend in

one of the churches near the site of the fire, and he said he saw at

least one car that had to be dragged away by the fire brigade to allow

them access to the site, so more indications that access was some

sort of issue that night. And what do the council and the fire service

say? We asked the council to come on the programme, but they said, we

don't think it is right to make comments until the issue has been

discussed with the police and the enquiry. The London Fire Brigade,

distinct from the union, have said, it is inevitable and not all

resources will be able to park next to the scene of a fire, so we have

procedures to make sure that cruise can be rotated in and out as quickly

as possible. Breaking news: The communities secretary has announced

more details of the independent Grenfell recovery task force. This

is the group that will look at the long-term recovery of the area, so

what happens to the site itself. Are the right procedures in place for

people who live in the local area? Javed Khan, the chief executive of

Barnardo's has been appointed, Jim Scott, the leader of Wiltshire

Council. The leader of the West Midlands police advisory group,

people like that. They will meet in the next few weeks, and the

communities secretary wants a first report by October this year. Thank

you very much, Jim. We can speak now to Tony Morris

who's a retired fire fighter Over 30 years, I think, as a

firefighter. 15 years as the senior emergency planning officer. In your

view, what impact it restricted access have on firefighters' ability

to tackle the blaze? I think it would have been significant.

Clearly, time is, in attacking the fire and rescue people, is critical.

Any delay really hampers the efforts, and it increases the energy

expended by firefighters having to return longer distances to collect

equipment from vehicles and so on. I wonder if you think perhaps the

public enquiry should be widened in order to look at changes to the

Grenfell site over the years and how that affected the response on the

night. Definitely. I responded to the

consultation on the terms of reference and are included in that

the need to look at everything from the original building construction

through to what has happened since, what changes have been made, both to

the building and around the building, because changes do tend to

get made that don't take full account of Fire Service access.

Thank you very much, Tony Morris, who was a retired firefighter and

emergency planner. Still to come... We'll be live at the supreme court

as the public service union Unison finds out if it's won its legal

challenge against the increase in fees for those bringing

employment tribunals and appeals. ?1200 costs at the moment and they

say it is way too much. We will bring you that news live as it

happens. A BBC Panorama investigation has

found 60 reports of murder or thoughts of murder associated

with antidepressants have been received by the UK medicines

regulator in the last three decades. The Medicines and Healthcare

Products Regulatory Agency says the reports don't necessarily mean

the drugs caused the events. The investigation has also found

evidence that suggests an antidepressant may have played

a role in one of America's worst mass shootings,

when a 24-year-old man with no history of violence shot dead

12 people at a cinema screening of Batman in the US

state of Colorado. Now a year-long investigation

by the BBC is claiming there may be a link between James Holmes' actions

and the anti-depressants Panorama has learned that in

preparation for the trial two years ago, the defence brought a UK based

psychiatrist to evaluate the evidence and meet Holm is in prison.

Became too controversial in conclusion. I believe if he hadn't

taken the sertraline, he wouldn't have murdered anyone. But his

evidence was never tested in court it up Panorama has scrutinised what

happened after James holds took the drug. And no book he wrote provide

some clues. Holds wrote in his notebook how his obsession with

killing default. It tends -- intense aversion of people, cause unknown,

it began, suppressed by greater fear of others. And after he started

taking sertraline, no more fear, hatred and checked, starts small, by

a stun gun and knife. By handgun. Simon is a psychiatrist. The

antidepressant James Hanson is taking at the time of the attack has

held many and there was no evidence linking into homicide.

Over 40 million prescriptions for SSRI anti-depressants

were handed out by doctors last year in the UK.

A freedom of information request has revealed the UK medicines regulator

received 60 reports claiming there was a link between

antidepressants and cases of murder and murderous thoughts over

One of Britain's leading psychiatrists is calling for more

research into the extreme side effects of the medication,

But other leading medical professionals say there is no good

evidence that antidepressants increase the risk of violent

behaviour, and extremely rare cases could be explained by chance.

Her son Shane killed his ex-girlfriend's boyfriend

She blames the antidepressants he was on at the time,

though there is no evidence that that is the case.

Kirk Brandon claims he experienced murderous thoughts

while he was on antidepressants in the 1990s.

Ryan James has been taking medication for more than a decade.

Also here is the immediate past President of the Royal College

of Psychiatrists, Professor Simon Wessely.

Welcome to all of you. I'm going to start with Leone. Tell us what shame

was like before you started taking antidepressants. Shane was 22 and

was going into his final year in college. He was happy,

good-humoured, handsome. He had everything going for him. He was

very kind, he loved his younger brothers and sister. Shane was no

different than anybody else. His lecturers knew him as the Irish word

for the big heart to talk that explains what he was like before he

died. Tell us what Tell us what happened after he started taking

antidepressants. 17 days after taking the antidepressant, he had

split up with his girlfriend so he had gone to wear his ex-girlfriend

of. She stabbed her new boyfriend and he died, and then he injured his

ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend's brother and then he went

out into the back garden and stabbed himself 19 times and he died. That

was 17 days after starting the antidepressant. And you believe,

clearly, there is a big link? I have no doubt there was a link. I have no

doubt if Shane hadn't been on the antidepressant, he wouldn't be dead

now and either with the other young man. Let me bring in Kirk. You an

antidepressants for just under a year, I think? Ten months. Can you

relate to some of what Leonie has described with Shane? Yes, I can.

Out of nowhere... I was only on it for ten months but you get

incredible feelings of rage that just turn up out of the blue, just

sitting watching the TV or whatever you are doing, and I'm not really a

violent guy. I knew that this was coming from somewhere really

strange, and I put it principally and totally down to the drug, so

rocks at. It is my belief that it is a very dangerous drug and although

many tens of millions take it, there are many thousands where it goes

wrong and they will either do violence to themselves or kill

themselves. I think the medical authorities should really seriously

look again at SSRIs, in particular the one I took that they should look

at these things again. As you rightly say, millions of people take

that particular antidepressants. There are various brands that if we

described them as SSRIs. And Ryan, you have a very different

experience. Yeah, it is horrible to hear about the other stories but my

experience can only be described as positive and that's since I was 14,

15, when I was first prescribed them and I was on citalopram. Positive in

what way? The general effect, I really noticed the difference in how

it changed how I was feeling about myself and my situation. I know

there were conversations with parents and doctors before I was put

on anything because I was quite young and I know even day today now,

they I do believe help me get out of bed in the morning. Kirk, what is

your recollection of the worst point in that 10-month period when you

were on it? Once I started taking it, I entered another reality and it

wasn't a very pleasant one. The rage, really ugly stuff. Probably

the hardest bit was, my sister is a psychiatric nurse and she said, it

is most probably the drug, because they have a lot of trouble with it

in the psych wards. I said I would go cold turkey on it, which is what

I did, and I realised I was seriously addicted. This stuff was

incredibly addictive and that was harrowing, to tell you the truth. It

was harrowing. I wouldn't wish that anyone. That was the hardest bit,

coming off it. That's interesting. Let me read to messages from people

who are watching you around the country. Dan says antidepressants

interfere with your humanity, no surprise they can make your

aggressive. Italy says, antidepressants don't make you

violent. Playmate suppressed anxiety about already being a psychopath but

they don't make them. And I was abroad, grandad was put on one SSRI

and he turned wild and then to grabbing man around the throat. As a

psychiatrist, professors and Westley, what is the view of the

link between murder or murderous thoughts and violence,? People do do

research in this area. Antidepressants have been around for

40 years. Billions of people in this country and war around the world

have been taking them so we have a good idea what the side effects are.

It is difficult because I have been meeting with people who have been

affected by suicide or homicide and I don't think you ever get over it

died of a guy can talk about individual cases. Last time I was on

this programme was to talk about the rise to the present prescribing,

which has been going up very steadily for 25 years. Last year 66

million work prescribed in England and Wales. At the same time, suicide

rates over the same period have been gradually decreasing, except in

times of austerity and depression. If there was a link at an individual

level with that amount of prescribing going up, you would see

different suicide rates, so I think people will probably understand that

even a fairly small link, given about 11 cents of the population on

these drugs, you would have seen an increase in suicide as well. So I

think overall professional opinion is that the benefits of

antidepressants outweigh the risks. And bearing that in mind, taking

that time accepting that, of course that does not discount these

individual examples. It certainly doesn't. Kirk has pointed out one of

the problems of the antidepressants is that if you do go cold turkey,

that's not a good idea. Anyone who is going to watch this programme

tonight or is watching Stanley was thinking as a result of this that

you should just come off antidepressants, that is really not

a good idea and you can get unpleasant symptoms. You can do it

slowly. Can I say one thing? Seroxat is made by a company called

GlaxoSmithKline. On the packet, it said, this drug is not addictive. I

would beg to differ. Obviously, the drugs company are not here to give

their own side of the story. I think it is more withdrawal symptoms that

people get and some people find them very difficult and have great

problems coming off drugs so people who are thinking of stopping

antidepressants, they should remember, first of all, don't do it

abruptly and second, there is a genuine risk of relapse and

depressive illness and that is incontrovertible and potentially

serious so you really should think very carefully if you watch this

programme tonight, which sounds a little difficult, before you do

that. Those are absolute certainties. You can get withdrawal

symptoms and you can have a relapse of your illness. Of the rest, I have

to say most professionals are not particularly convinced. Thank you

very much. Thank you all for coming in on the programme. The programme

tonight is on BBC One at 9pm, BBC Panorama, and the drugs companies

say millions and millions of people across the world have been helped by

SSRIs. Let me bring you this breaking news

to do with the challenge that Unison brought against what they said were

expensive fees for workers to take a case for an employment tribunal. The

Supreme Court has agreed to adopt Unison has won has challenged those

fees, 1200 quid to take a case to an employment tribunal. The court found

that the fees order, which introduced fees in 2013 for

claimants bringing claims, is unlawful in both domestic and EU law

because it has the effect of preventing access to justice. So the

Supreme Court says that Unison's challenge to these fees means that

the fees will have to go because it is unlawful. Much more reaction to

that to come in the next half hour of the programme. The latest news

and sport in a second but before that, the weather.

Heavy rain has been moving steadily towards the east as we've gone

through the course of this morning. Some lovely Weather Watchers

pictures. It was a dumb start in Devon with a lot of cloud but as we

push further east, it was drier but now the cloud is building and these

pictures are courtesy of our Weather Watchers. You can see the amount of

rainfall we have had. It has moved out of Northern Ireland, continuing

across Scotland and north-west England, extending through Wales,

down towards the Isle of Wight, and that is going to be pushing steadily

eastwards through day, eventually clearing off into the North Sea, so

behind it across northern England, a mixture of sunshine and showers but

from the Washed through East Anglia, Kent, the Midlands down towards the

Isle of Wight, still rain about it any more patchy in nature. In the

south-west of England, it will dry up after this morning's rain, the

same for Wales. Still some rain around at the moment, that clears

eastwards and the sun will come out brightening up already across

Northern Ireland but there are still a few showers dotted around. Behind

the rain in Scotland, bright spells, sunshine and showers. By 4pm the

ring will be and is constantly northern isles. Through the evening

and overnight, the rain moves away from Orkney and Shetland. There will

be a lot of dry weather but we also looking at a lot of showers across

western Scotland and Northern Ireland, north-west England, Wales

on the south-west and it is not going to be particularly cold, towns

and cities staying in double figures. The reason for all the

showers of this area of low pressure edging closer towards the

north-west. You can see from the squeeze on the isobars it is also

going to be windy. Touching gale force with exposure around the

coasts, north-west Scotland, and the coastal Northern Ireland, quite

possible. The showers merging to give longer spells of rain. You

could hear the odd clap of thunder and see the odd hailstone but for

the rest of the British Isles, a day of bright spells, sunshine and

showers and you know the drill with showers, not all of us will catch

one. 15 in the north to highs of 20 in the South. As we head through the

rest of Thursday and into Friday, if anything the low pressure is dragged

a bit further north westwards but still the squeeze on that isobars

denote that it is going to be a breezy day, particularly close to

the centre of low pressure, where the squeeze is the tightest. Again,

showers squeezing across Scotland, some across northern England to talk

a lot of dry weather across the course of the day to talk if you

have outdoor plans, this may change. That has been oscillating this

morning northwards and southwards so we think it is coming across parts

of the south and south-west, possibly parts of south Wales,

temperature is up to 20 wanted up by Friday and into Saturday, we have

that rain scooting across southern counties as a showery future and we

are back into sunshine and showers. Is the culture of abuse towards MPs

completely out of control? MPs from all parties have been telling us

about the type of intimidating and bullying messages they receive.

Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

Eat EXPLETIVE in hell, you Tory witch.

Get out of my country, you ugly, racist EXPLETIVE!

We will talk to one newly elected MP who said the 2017 general election

was the most abusive and vindictive campaign he has ever been involved

in. Sperm count has halved

in the last 40 years. Of the linked to reduced sperm

count. Smoking has an effect. And like of physical activity, stress,

all of these factors that are also associated with poor health are

factors that affect sperm production. And should the law be

changed to make elderly drivers retake their test? We are asking

because the number of people over 90 who hold a driving licence has

reached the 100,000 mark for the first time. We will ask drivers what

they think. Here's Ben Brown in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news. New diesel and petrol cars are to be

banned from 2040, as part of efforts to tackle air pollution. It heralds

a move to all electric vehicles which currently only account for 1%

of the market. There will also be a fund 's of over ?200 million to

help. Michael Gove said the ban is needed to tackle climate change. We

have to get rid of petrol and diesel cars off our roads of we want to

make sure that we want to deal with their health problems that ebb

pollution causes and to meet our climate change targets. The good

news is that the car industry is already moving in this direction.

Volvo and Many are both moving in this direction, and we have to as a

Government help the car industry do the right thing.

The Supreme Court is to rule on a challenge to the increase

The legal battle is a challenge to the fees brought in June 2013

in tribunals, which range from ?390 to ?1600.

The office of National statistics said the economy grew by 0.3% in the

last quarter. The increase is credited to the services sector.

The High Court judge overseeing the case of the terminally ill baby

Charlie Gard will decide today whether the child's parents can

Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital say that,

in the interest of his care, he should stay where he is or be

His parents have appealed for a specialist doctor to come

forward so he can spend his final hours at home.

The judge leading the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has

told survivors he would "get to the bottom" of the tragedy

Shouting broke out as residents expressed their anger ahead

of the final consultation on what the investigation

A final meeting will be held tonight on the scope of the investigation.

At least 80 people were killed in the blaze.

Princess Diana's brother says he was like two about Prince William and

Prince Harry wanting to walk behind their mother's coffin. In an

interview with the Today programme, he said it was a bizarre and cruel

thing for the Princes to do. He also said the funeral procession was the

most horrifying half an hour of his life. He was speaking as the 20th

anniversary of her death approaches in August. I really wasn't thinking

about the outside world, but it was impossible not to connect with the

emotion coming from the crowd. It was so powerful. Pulsing through us,

I think. It was so bizarre, the sort of crunching of our procession with

the horses and carriage, and our footsteps, and then the incredible,

crashing emotion coming in from every side. It was really

horrifying. At least 10,000 people, including

British holiday-makers, were moved to safety in the south of France

during the night to escape rapidly A new blaze has broken

out west of St Tropez. A number of campsites on the coast

have been evacuated. More from mere 10:30am.

Thanks for your comments. We will talk to newly elected MPs who have

only been in the job for a month about the abuse they have

experienced during the election campaign. One was elected this year

and one was elected in 2015. Andy on Facebook: Sadly, MPs only have

themselves to blame. It is hypocritical when they attack each

other in the press. Their behaviour PMQs is disgusting. Also, in light

of current events, you have to question their competence.

Charming! Tim says: Perhaps if MPs behaved with more respect and

civility in the House of Commons they might be treated with the same.

Ian says: Ian says... I read this one earlier. If you are getting in

touch, use the hashtag Victoria life. Now, sport.

Adam Peaty, what a week it has been for himself. He was left stunned by

his own performances as he continues to set the standard not just the

Great Britain but for the whole world in the swimming pool. The

Olympic champion beat his own world record twice in a single day, and he

broke the 26-2nd mark for the first time. He goes into the final today

looking to set an even faster time. This morning, I went 26.1, and I

thought it would be hard to beat that. Tonight, I was like, get

yourself up for it, do what you do. I will not waste an opportunity

because I do not know if it will be my last. I

just went out there and did what I do.

James Guy couldn't defend his world title

He finished in fifth, just behind fellow Briton Duncan Scott.

Today there are seven Brits in individual final action,

including Scott who goes again in the 100-metre freestyle

Manchester United manager Jose Mourinho says that some clubs

are paying far too much for players this summer.

His team, of course, spent 75 million on Romelu Lukaku

Last summer, they spent 89 million on Paul Pogba but the United

boss believes smaller clubs are overspending.

We spent a lot of money on the striker, and if we don't do

That is obvious nowadays, especially for the strikers,

Every club is getting players, investing a lot.

Some clubs, obviously, they are paying too much,

and by doing that, they create a very strange and out-of-control

England's cricketers will look to regain the series lead

when they face South Africa in the third test at the Oval

They'll have debutant Tom Westley in the side,

who comes in to replace the injured Gary Ballance.

The Essex batsman will be making his England debut at the age of 28.

It has probably started to sink in now. It has been a surreal few days.

It is just the build-up, really. Come Thursday, I will be nervous, as

expected, but I think the challenge for me is to replicate what I have

been doing for Essex, and hopefully do that for England.

British Cycling has influenced nearly three

quarters of a million women, who weren't cycling previously,

The sport's governing body says it's well on it's way to reaching it's

target to get 1 million more women cycling by 2020, but two times

Olympic gold medallist Joanna Rowsell Shand says some women

Road safety - that comes up all the time. Fear of riding in a group

comes up quite a lot, so some people feel that they are OK by themselves,

but in a group, what if they can't keep up, there are a bit wobbly,

things like that? Bike mechanics comes up all the time, that fear of,

what if I get a puncture or something happens on my bike? How do

I deal with that? If you are in a group, what if the group has to wait

for me, if I'm too slow... And a quick reminder -

if you do fancy picking up cycling or any other sport,

go to the Get Inspired page MPs from all parties have been

shedding light on the scale Many say that in last month's

general election, it was off the scale.

An inquiry into the issue was announced by the standards

watchdog earlier in July, and began its

Our reporter John Own has been investigating the type

of abuse they receive - we bought you his full

report earlier - here's a short extract clip.

Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

Here at Westminster, a lot of people are afraid that in the recent

turbulence, the nature of the political conversation may have

changed for the worse. MPs have told this programme about an emerging

culture of abuse and intimidation in public life. This was the most

abusive and vindictive campaign most of us have been involved with. It

should never be part of the job to receive this level of abuse. All of

them told us they had received some abuse online, ranging from the quite

trivial to the very X Screen -- the very extreme. They all agree that in

the last few years things have become worse. Simon Hart has been

trying to further light on this problem, and he mainly blames

activists on the left for the deterioration in the quality of

debate. They are more active, there is more evidence of activity, in

this election orchestrated from the than left from the right. It was not

exclusively like that, I emphasise. Do you think there has been a change

in the character of left-wing activism in the last few years that

you would say is responsible for the rise in this type of language? That

would be how it appears to me. On the other end of the spectrum,

Labour's Kat Smith, a member of the Shadow Cabinet and a close ally of

Jeremy Corbyn, has a different story to tell. What we saw from the Tory

Party during the election was the singling out of, let's be honest,

Diane Abbott, and some of the very personal attacks, I think, bordered

on the racist. Are you saying the Conservative party has officially

sanctioned race is campaigning against people like Sadiq Khan and

Diane Abbott? I think when they campaign -- I think when the

official campaign is using the wolf whistle politics that they did use,

it almost gives permission for people who are racist online to take

a step further and use the kind of threatening language we have seen

directed at Sadiq Khan and Diane Abbott. Conservative Caroline Ansell

lost her seat in the ultra-marginal consistency of -- constituency of

Eastbourne after a hard-fought campaign in the election. You post a

comment, and it can create a feeding frenzy for people who seem to be

just waiting for you to have the temerity to talk about a success

that you have managed to come through. Do you feel hesitant to

express opinions because of a fear of a backlash you might get?

I guess I have had a moment, if you moments where I've,

you know, paused over posts, because I know what

The government has recently asked the Committee for Standards

in Public Life to interrogate this issue, and to make recommendations

There are different interpretations, or what the balance is,

or who is suffering the most, and so on, but the really

interesting thing is across the parties in Westminster,

nobody is actually saying this is an imaginary, got up thing.

We're going to talk to three MPs in the moment but first we're going to

the Supreme Court to to Clive Coleman. Unison has won its case

against the fees you have to pay to take a case to tribunal.

This is an absolutely huge judgment not just for Unison but for anyone

who has taken an employment tribunal claim within the last... Since July

2013 when these fees came in and they are pretty hefty fees, so in a

simple case they will amount to something like ?390, in a more

complex case 1200, if you want to appeal a further ?1600 and today the

Supreme Court has unanimously ruled that these fees are unlawful because

they have the effect of preventing access to justice and, in addition

to that, they have also ruled unanimously that they are indirectly

discriminatory in that, for instance, they discredit against

women because a higher proportion of women bring the more complex type of

claims. This is huge. It also means that the Government, who have given

an undertaking to pay back all of these fees, we think something of a

region of ?32 million worth of these, should they be found to have

acted unlawfully, they have to now repay that money. With me as Dave

Prentis, general secretary of union would Unison, which brought this

claim. Pumas be thrilled. We really are to take thiss' work. We knew

that these fees were unlawful from the beginning because these take

low-paid, vulnerable workers and prevent them on having access to

justice. In doing that, this Government has acted according to

the Supreme Court, not only broken common law but the constitutional

law of the United Kingdom. It is even broken the 1215 Magna Carta as

well as European Union law. This is an absolutely tremendous victory,

probably the biggest victory of a court in the whole history of

employment rights in this country. And, of course, it means that the

people who have made claims will get their money back but, of course,

many people would have been put off bringing claims at all. This is the

terrible part of it because we knew from day one that this was not just

unlawful but immoral, that low-paid workers could be put in this

position and be denied access to justice. Small amount involved but

it may include racial discrimination, sex discrimination,

fair pay, it may be unfair deductions from wages, it may be not

having rest breaks, but vulnerable workers were having to pay ?1200

just to get their case heard. They couldn't afford it, they couldn't go

and there have been over those former careers many thousands of

workers who may have been affected by this unlawful act. Thank you very

much indeed. There you have it, Victoria. This is a very significant

ruling and workers now across the country will know that they can

bring a claim at an employment tribunal and it will not cost them

any money. At the moment, those fees have been quashed. Thank you, Clive

Coleman, live from the Supreme Court and we will bring new reaction in

the next few minutes. Let's continue our conversation about MPs and the

kind of abuse they have been receiving.

Perhaps one woman who receives more abuse than any other politician

is Labour's Home Affairs Spokesperson Diane Abbot.

Speaking in Parliament recently she described the torrent

of "mindless" racist and sexist abuse, including death

We are not talking here about robust debate, however robust it is. We are

talking about mindless abuse and, in my case, the mindless abuse has been

characteristically racist and sexist. And just outline, I've had

death threats, I've had people tweeting that I should be hung if,

quit, they could find a tree big enough to take the fat... Waits.

There was an EDL affiliated Twitter account, Bernd Diane Abbott, I have

had rain threats, described as an ugly, fat black... And over again,

one of staff said that when people ask her, what is the most surprising

thing about coming to work for me, the most surprising thing for her is

how often she has to read the word... And this comes in through

e-mails, through Twitter, through Facebook. But where I disagree with

the honourable gentleman - he seems to suggest that this is all a

relatively recent thing around the time of the selection. That is not

my experience, that really is not my experience. It is certainly true

that the online abuse that I experience and others experience has

got worse in recent years, and it does get worse at election time, but

I don't put it down to a particular election. I think the rise in the

use of online has turbo-charged abuse because 30 years ago when I

first became an MP, if you wanted to attack an MP, you had to write a

letter, usually in green ink, you had to put it in an envelope, you

had to put a stamp on it and you had to walk to the post box. Now they

press a button and you read file abuse which 30 years ago people

would have been frightened to even write down. So I accept that male

politicians get abuse, too, but I hope the one thing we can bring in

this chamber is that it is much worse for women and I think as well

as the rise of online, anonymity is the thing. People would not come up

to B and attack me for being a... In public. They will do it online and I

am telling you, this is not once a week, this is not Jeremy election,

this is every day. My stuff switch on a computer, go go on to Twitter

and see this stuff. We can talk now to two new MPs

and one relatively new MP - Simon Clarke was elected

as the Conservative MP for Middlesbrough South

and East Cleveland last month. Christine Jardine, who was also

elected this summer as the Lib Dem as the Labour MP for

Birmingham Yardley back in 2015 Thank you very much for coming on

the programme. Simon, I'm going to read you a couple of messages that

you have received. Simon, F off, use sycophantic parasite. And another

one, at what point in your childhood did you decide to be evil? What

impact does that have on you? Well, they are certainly not the nicest

things to receive and it is part of a litany of similar messages that I

think MPs of all parties have received during the course of this

campaign but there is no question, as Diane Abbott was pointed out,

this is not something which stops when the election goes away. It is,

I'm afraid, part and parcel of modern politics and it is not

something we should accept, it is something we must challenge, and

those organisations which are stoking it need to be pulled to

account it And by that, you mean...? By that, I principally mean

Momentum. They are the grassroots group that support Jeremy Corbyn.

And you accept there are loads of groups, including groups on the

right, as well, who target MPs? That is certainly the case. No group has

a monopoly on hatred and the bigotry and the intolerance and the vile

abuse which MPs of all parties have suffered is not something which any

one group is solely responsible for, but I do believe that the way in

which, if you like, the extraparliamentary left in British

politics has been operating has dramatically worsened the tone of

the debate and that's not just online. Is also the fact that... I

mean, all but a handful of my post is a general election campaign were

defaced or destroyed and I know that some of my colleagues had swastikas

or faces carved out. I did not see that happening to my Labour

opponents. Labour do have particular questions to answer on this

question. Adam Taggart is for this party to a countertop Jess Phillips,

you have had abuse from some Labour supporters, essentially from

Momentum. I wouldn't say that it was specifically from Momentum, as

momentum organise, it is from members of the public who perhaps

identify themselves as Momentum all members of the Labour Party. I have

no way of checking who is a member of which organisation. But I have

received abuse from the left as much as I have from the right. I have

also received abuse from the centre, so this goes all over and this has

activists running into my election campaign of his shrieking at me,

saying very sexist lines that are often use against me by right wing

commentators, so I think that to say that it is any one group is not

right to talk I'm just going to read a couple of messages that have been

sent to you, and then I want you to tell our audience how it affects you

and your family, because some people think, it is just words on Twitter,

who cares? These are some of the things. I wouldn't even rain you,

Jess Phillips. And another one, Zionist filth like Jess Phillips

have caused more damage in this world than Anjem Choudary and should

be imprisoned. That's nice, isn't it? The way that that makes me feel

is tired, actually, is the reality. It makes me wonder why we bother

doing all of the things that we do, and this is just like, aren't MPs

absolutely amazing? But I work incredibly long hours, I'm away from

my children and it just makes you feel like, what is it all for when

all people can see - and sometimes it feels like all you get is abuse.

It can be very demoralising. And my son goes on YouTube, like all

children go on YouTube, and the kids in his class will look me up because

they are interested in fact that I am an MP and what they see as a load

of people talking about how they would or would not rape me. That

makes feel pretty rough. Christine, you are a brand-new MP and have been

the job just over a month and already get abuse? Yeah, but I agree

with Diane Abbott. That is actually not new. One of the worst periods,

certainly in Scottish politics, was during the independence referendum,

when some of the abuse and intimidation that people were

getting was as bad as anything we've seen. I think I've been lucky. I've

had abuse, I've had nasty things said about me. You get false it up

about you, but I haven't had to suffer anything like the scale of

abuse that Diane Abbott has had... Does what you've received, sorry to

interrupt, have an effect on your confidence or your ability to do

your job? I think it could have an affect on your confidence. I've been

lucky in that after a particular incident, where it was extremely

upsetting, I got support from members of all political parties.

What was that incident? Er, well, I like to think it started from the

misunderstanding during the suspension of campaigning after the

Manchester bombing, and an activist said on Twitter that I had been out

campaigning when, in fact, I have been my husband's funeral. That kind

of grew arms and legs and it is the sort of thing that I think you can

get on Twitter because you have no means of regulating its. I'm not a

great fan of regulation but if you were in a radio, TV, newspaper

newsroom and you want to say something like that about somebody,

you would have to check it out and the lawyers would say, you can't say

that in case it is not true. But on Twitter, the point Diana was making,

people just go online and they think it is easy and I think they get

pulled into thinking that they are anonymous, nobody is going to see it

and they don't think about the impact it has on the person, on

their confidence, on their family - it is very upsetting for their

family - and I think all political parties have got to take

responsibility for it. There was no one party responsible. You can all

take responsibility, US politicians can be more civil to opponents and

colleagues in the House of Commons and outside. What else is needed,

Simon? Undoubtedly, we have a role to play.

I think it is incumbent upon people to look into their own hearts and

think about what they are doing. I campaigned with my colleague in

Redcar, and her speech was drowned out by Jeremy Corbyn supporters

screaming Corbyn, Corbyn, over the top of her speech because she was

seen to be disloyal. I think those people need to take a long, hard

look at themselves, what they're doing, and whether they think that

is remotely acceptable. Jess, what do you suggest? I look forward to

taking part in the enquiry. I think the leaders of political parties

need to call out specifically their allies who do this. When Theresa May

gets a bump because the papers print things about her opponents, instead

of saying, that is not the tone of debate we should be having and I

don't care if it helps me, and they shouldn't be perpetrating it. She

should call that out. Jeremy Corbyn should round up those people

specifically and publicly who shouted and say, pack it in, this is

not how we behave. The other thing we need to do is to reactivate love

that only comes when politicians die. When Jo died, across the House,

no matter the party, everyone was saying what a great and brilliant

woman she was, and that is right, but why do we only hear those things

when someone's dead? We have to learn to be civil and show respect

to the other side, but openly show respect. We have enough that divides

us. There is a chasm between us, so we don't need to be hoping that

people get abuse. A final thought from you, Christine? There is a

general culture that the parties need to be aware of, and we do need

to also think about the way that quotes are used in the media, and

just support one another. It is a good point about saying, we only

seem to say nice things about people when they are no longer with us. I

don't think that would do any harm, but we have to take responsibility

for what is happening online and make it clear that we don't support

it. We don't want it from our own activists. Finally, would it ever

get to the point where the type of bullying, intimidation and abuse

that you receive would be enough for you not to stand for election again?

To be honest, it does affect me and makes me feel sad. You know, it

gives me a power. It makes me realise we all have to make the

world better, and it makes me stronger. Simon? I completely agree.

We won't give in, but it is depressing. That's the word I would

use - profoundly depressing. It will put good people off coming into

Parliament, and that is hugely regrettable. It won't stop me.

Christine? Know, in many ways, it makes you more determined not to let

those people win. I worry that it will put good people off getting

involved in politics. OK, thank you all, very much.

As the number of drivers over the age of 90 tops 100,000 for the first

time, there have been calls for them to be forced to retake the test. We

will get the views of an experienced driver and a new driver.

Our medical correspondent Fergus Walsh is here with more news about

the Charlie Gard case. I think the judges moving to a decision that is

probably that Charlie should go to a hospice. The parents absolutely

don't want Charlie to die in the intensive care unit where he has

been since October. The hospital has known for some time that they wanted

about a week at home with him. Great Ormond asked around the country, is

their rate paediatric intensive specialist who would be available to

oversee that care? And they haven't found anybody. The reason for that

is that Charlie's needs are rather complex. He can't breathe, he can't

move, he is fed by a tube, and were simple issues like whether the

ventilator would fit through the front door. The parents' lawyers in

court yesterday said that when Charlie is having things done to

him, they can manually give him oxygen for a few minutes, so that

problem could be overcome. Great Ormond says he needs to be treated

in a specialist centre, and they are worried that something could happen

to him. The compromise of a hospice, I think, is likely to be the way

ahead, although the judge said yesterday that he was really

pleading with both sides, can you please reach a decision amongst

yourselves? I don't want to give an order. I think it will be an order

that Charlie is moved to a hospice. Then we get the question of how long

he is in there before his ventilation is removed. Thank you,

Fergus. We will talk about the UK- US trade deal next, and the big

issue of whether chlorine washed chickens would be allowed to enter

the UK under such a deal. One minister says yes, and another says

no. We can speak now to our political

guru Norman Smith, who can explain It seems a bit bizarre talking about

chickens as the new front line in the battle over Brexit, but it has

become a test case for the kind of deals we may or may not be able to

do once we leave the EU. No deal bigger than that we hope to strike

with the US, and that is where the chickens come in. Obviously, the

Americans want access for their food and farming sector in any trade

deal, but their chickens are cleaned after they are slaughtered in

chlorine. That is to get all the germs and gunk off them. The

difference is that in Britain and the EU, we say, no thanks. If you

have to do that to chickens, what kind of conditions are you keeping

them in? So we have banned chlorinated chicken. Those in favour

of a trade deal here say we have to relax. The Americans eat chicken,

they are fine, and in fact, their chickens are about 20% cheaper, it

is just you row, namby-pamby nonsense. It is a bigger issue than

just chickens, because, the argument goes, if we give on chlorinated

chickens, we will probably give on things like GM crops, which ROK in

the US but not OK in Europe, on hormone injected beef, which is OK

in the US and not OK here. Interestingly, today, the new

environment Secretary, Michael Gove, said very clearly that we won't do a

deal with the Americans. We will just waved goodbye to any big

crucial trade deal if it means giving ground on the chickens. Have

a listen to what he said when he was asked by Nick Robinson on the today

programme about this. Chlorinated chicken - should it be

allowed? You're the man who ultimately,

if you're still agriculture secretary when the deal is done,

the man who will have to decide. We don't need to waste time on this

- yes to chlorinated chickens or no? I made it perfectly clear -

and, indeed, this is something which all members of the government

agreed - that we're not going to dilute our high animal

welfare standards or our high environmental standards

in pursuit of any trade deal. So if the Americans say,

"This super great deal," whatever Donald Trump's deal language

is for it, "we've got to have access to our farmers,"

Michael Gove says, "Well, Mr Trump, sorry, you can kiss

goodbye to your trade deal"? Critically, we need

to ensure that we do not That is a big statement by Michael

Gove, because he is saying that no matter how big the deal, we just

won't do it if it involves compromising of the chickens. What

makes it more interesting is that is not the sort of music we are hearing

from Liam Fox, the Cabinet minister who is supposed to be negotiating

trade deals, because when he was asked on Newsnight last night about

this, he was much more cautious. We don't need that regulation

that the EU currently has. We will be prepared to accept

whatever the chicken is washed in because we believe

that is the right way to go, it makes food cheaper

and it is a deal with the US? We will want to ensure

that the scientific advice that we have ensures proper

protection for British consumers, Well, it doesn't

at the moment, right? The EU has a preventative strategy,

so doesn't believe that chlorine washed chicken is the right thing

to have in the EU. Will that change under

Liam Fox's trade deal? Well, I can rule out that we will be

dropping our standards and consumer protection or environmental

protection or on animal welfare. These are all perfectly reasonable

things for people to look at. Think on this: Next time you have a

chicken burger, that is a signifier of all the difficulties we face in

trying to negotiate new trade deals once we leave the EU.

More on the news from the Supreme Court that the fees for taking a

case to an employment tribunal, ?1200 and more in some cases, are

unlawful and restrict access to justice, according to the Supreme

Court. Let's get reaction. Now we can speak to Clara Mason,

a teaching assistant and Unison branch official who is bringing

an employment tribunal claim a member of the Independent Workers'

Union who is taking his courier Your reaction? I think it is

fantastic news. We had seen a 70% decrease in people taking tribunal

action since it was included. People like me would never be able to go to

court and stand up for what they believe if there were not changes

like this. I welcome the changes and what the tribunal has said. You were

taking your company to a tribunal anyway, despite the charges? If it

were not for the help of the unions, I would never be able to afford

that. Understood. How do you respond as an employment lawyer? It is a

monumental day. I had to compose myself in the waiting room because I

wanted to do a handstand. I don't know an employment lawyer who didn't

think it was wrong to have fees. We all felt that it was morally the

wrong thing to do, as a barrier to justice, but it didn't necessarily

mean that the Supreme Court would hold that it was unlawful, so I am

still reeling from the decision, and I can't wait to read the judgment.

It is welcome news for people across the board, and hopefully it might

help change some attitudes from employers as well. In what respect?

In my experience, when the fees came in, I noticed that some employers

were less willing to negotiate. Often, in a dispute, there is a

resolution to be found. Because of the threat of a tribunal, so it is

worth having mediation? Absolutely. We always try first to because it is

better for both parties. When tribunal fees came in, there was

this from employers which was, show me you really mean it - pay your

fees. So it became harder. Cases which historically would have

settled quite easily and quickly were running on for weeks and

months. It definitely had an impact on attitudes from employers, and

hopefully we will see that reversed. You say you can't wait to read the

judgment. I can tell you, according to the Supreme Court judges, it was

unanimous that it was unlawful in both domestic and EU law, and also

indirectly discriminatory against women, because women apparently

bring more complex cases. Is that correct? Yes. The fees ran into my

extremes. The first type cost ?390 to run under the old regime, and the

second, discrimination claims, ?1200, so significantly more

expensive. There was evidence to support the fact that people

bringing maternity and pregnancy discrimination claims, for example,

sex discrimination claims, they couldn't even get off the ground

with that level of fees. OK, thank you both for coming in. ?32 million

in fees that had been paid already will have to be paid back, according

to our correspondent. Let me bring you this news: Mark Dixie, who was

serving a life sentence for the 2005 rape and murder of the teenage model

Sally Anne Bowman, has pleaded guilty at Southwark Crown Court to

rape, indecent assault and GBH charges relating to to make other

women. serving a life sentence for the 2005