08/08/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


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08/08/2017

An exclusive report on the British South Asian women who are hiding their cancer because of stigma. Plus the latest on the norovirus bug that's struck London 2017 athletes.


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Hello it's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:19.:00:21.

Experts tell us that some women not seeking treatment early enough

:00:22.:00:25.

I don't know how long this woman was hiding cancer. Her breast was

:00:26.:00:38.

rotten. Also on the programme -

:00:39.:00:43.

the 20-year-old British model who was allegedly held captive

:00:44.:00:47.

by a gang in Italy was told she would be sold in the Middle East

:00:48.:00:51.

"for sex", according to her lawyer. She was told that people were there

:00:52.:01:01.

watching her and ready to kill her if she tried anything. So she

:01:02.:01:06.

thought that the best idea was to go along with it.

:01:07.:01:09.

We'll talk to a close friend of Chloe Ayling who's spoken

:01:10.:01:13.

to the model since she returned to the UK.

:01:14.:01:16.

And we'll hear calls to ban the use of police

:01:17.:01:19.

Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11.

:01:20.:01:32.

Throughout the programme the latest breaking news

:01:33.:01:34.

A little later we'll hear how the former boss of GCHQ -

:01:35.:01:41.

Britain's electronic surveillance agency - is calling for children

:01:42.:01:44.

to spend more time online to help save the country.

:01:45.:01:50.

Robert Hannigan says instead of allowing kids to "mooch"

:01:51.:01:53.

around the streets - parents should encourage them

:01:54.:01:58.

to have more screen time and that it's not a wasted life.

:01:59.:02:02.

Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

:02:03.:02:07.

use the hashtag Victoria live and If you text, you will be charged

:02:08.:02:10.

The lawyer for a British model who was allegedly held captive

:02:11.:02:15.

by a gang in Italy has been giving more details about the case.

:02:16.:02:18.

Francesco Peschi says Chloe Ayling, who's 20 and from South London,

:02:19.:02:20.

was told by her kidnappers that she would be sold

:02:21.:02:23.

He said she was acting under duress, when she was seen shopping

:02:24.:02:30.

with her captor before she was freed.

:02:31.:02:37.

Gavin Lee is following the story in Milan. Fill us in on the details

:02:38.:02:47.

from Chloe Ayling's lawyer? The point Francesco is making, he said

:02:48.:02:51.

there was a lot of misreporting, there are lots of facts in the case

:02:52.:02:56.

that he wanted to make sure there is clarity on, partly because he

:02:57.:02:58.

believes some British newspapers in particular have started to raise

:02:59.:03:01.

questions about whether she was complicit. He said categorically,

:03:02.:03:06.

this is something his clients, the police, the chief investigators

:03:07.:03:10.

believe she's gone through the most psychological and physical trauma

:03:11.:03:14.

and torment. So from the route to the fruit, as he sees it, what

:03:15.:03:19.

happened is that she arrived in Milan here on July 10th. The next

:03:20.:03:25.

day she saw a photo shoot advert, a fake one, close to Central Station.

:03:26.:03:30.

She went into a room. She saw three men very briefly, all had

:03:31.:03:33.

balaclavas, one put a hand on her mouth to stop her screaming, very

:03:34.:03:37.

quickly she was injected with something. We heard yesterday that

:03:38.:03:41.

it was a ketamine drug. She was placed in a bag, taken 120 miles in

:03:42.:03:48.

a car. It was a place close to the French Alps, there is one remote

:03:49.:03:53.

area. One man lives there. He told us if somebody is being held there

:03:54.:03:57.

he would not have heard. What happened to here in there is that he

:03:58.:04:04.

said she was tied to a box for two days and slowly released as she

:04:05.:04:08.

became more trusted by her captors. She is what he told me. -- this is

:04:09.:04:17.

what he told me. She was told she was going to be sold to somebody in

:04:18.:04:24.

the Middle East for sex. She was told that people were there watching

:04:25.:04:29.

her and ready to kill her if she tried anything. So she thought that

:04:30.:04:37.

the best idea was to go along with it and to be nice in a way to her

:04:38.:04:46.

captor Because he told her he wanted to release her somehow and some

:04:47.:04:51.

time. I've been to this remote place, it's a place where tourists

:04:52.:04:58.

go because there are bears, wolves, at night-time it's particularly

:04:59.:05:01.

unpleasant because of the sound scape of the place. In the farmhouse

:05:02.:05:07.

at the bottom, the bottom floor where she was held to a chest of

:05:08.:05:11.

drawers, she was slowly released with time but was told if she left

:05:12.:05:15.

she'd be killed. Here is the thing - the day before she was released,

:05:16.:05:20.

after seven days, not six, she was seen in a nearby village with her

:05:21.:05:24.

captor and that she was buying shoes, groceries together. What the

:05:25.:05:29.

lawyer has said is categorically, this was absolutely part of her way

:05:30.:05:33.

of surviving, she was told if she moved she would be killed. In fact,

:05:34.:05:38.

she was told the next day she'd probably be sold in the Middle East

:05:39.:05:44.

for around ?230,000. That was the idea they were trying to raise on an

:05:45.:05:48.

auction site, this group called the Black death group and what happened

:05:49.:05:52.

was the alleged chief suspect who was Polish who spent time living in

:05:53.:05:56.

Oldbury in the West Midlands, he said, if you stick with me, I will

:05:57.:06:01.

release you. Here is the other thing that was different. Yesterday he was

:06:02.:06:04.

claiming, according to the lawyers, that he released her because she had

:06:05.:06:09.

a two-year-old baby, a son, he's since changed his statement we are

:06:10.:06:13.

told by the police, he said he released her because he felt an

:06:14.:06:17.

affinity with her. She was driven to the consulate. He went in with her,

:06:18.:06:20.

she was then questioned there. She spent three weeks after that in

:06:21.:06:24.

Italy according to the lawyer as well and only came back on Sunday

:06:25.:06:28.

after helping police with their enquiries, so she's had two days

:06:29.:06:32.

back in the UK and has spoken briefly, reading a statement about

:06:33.:06:38.

her ordeal. In terms of the Italian police investigation, where do they

:06:39.:06:45.

say they're up to in this? We think according to the lawyers and the

:06:46.:06:48.

police statements, there are between three and four people who were

:06:49.:06:53.

hiding Chloe in this remote area. There were two cars, a Mercedes with

:06:54.:06:57.

British registration plates seen by the neighbours there, there was also

:06:58.:07:01.

a Volvo with Polish registration plates, that was the one that drove

:07:02.:07:06.

to the consulate. They're looking at the moment at exactly how big this

:07:07.:07:11.

group is, that there are other people apparently they've suggested

:07:12.:07:15.

they could sell on online sites although nothing's come to fruition.

:07:16.:07:24.

The group seemed to be selling on pornographic websites, pictures from

:07:25.:07:28.

the porn shoots and not the victims, it was then questioned, was this

:07:29.:07:35.

some sort of scam group. This will take a long time to work out. It

:07:36.:07:42.

will take six months to go through court. Just being here, in the

:07:43.:07:47.

fashion capital of the world in Milan, there are lots of young

:07:48.:07:51.

models drawn to this place, modelling agencies I've spoken to

:07:52.:07:54.

over the past day or so say this is not the formula that you would go

:07:55.:07:58.

through. What would happen is that you would always be escorted from

:07:59.:08:04.

the UK to Milan if ever there was a proper photo shoot deal. They are

:08:05.:08:07.

warning if ever women are in a similar position, this is not the

:08:08.:08:11.

way to do it. This is for Chloe's sake, given what we are hearing, is

:08:12.:08:16.

a most horrendous ordeal. Thank you very much indeed. About 9.

:08:17.:08:23.

45, we'll talk to one of Chloe's close friends who's spoken to her

:08:24.:08:25.

since she returned to the UK. The Victoria Derbyshire Programme

:08:26.:08:27.

has learned that a number of women in the UK from South Asian

:08:28.:08:36.

backgrounds who have cancer hide it because of a perceived

:08:37.:08:41.

stigma about the disease. they're worried cultural

:08:42.:08:43.

taboos are leading to more Some women even hide

:08:44.:08:46.

their diagnosis from family and friends out of shame -

:08:47.:08:50.

in one case a woman only sought treatment

:08:51.:08:52.

when her breast was rotten. More than 40 maternity units in

:08:53.:09:00.

England closed to new admissions according to data obtained by

:09:01.:09:05.

Labour. 42 out of 96 Trusts that responded to a Freedom of

:09:06.:09:09.

Information request said they'd shut maternity wards temporarily on 382

:09:10.:09:12.

occasions. Labour has blamed staffing shortages but the

:09:13.:09:16.

Government says that is misleading and closures are well rehearsed.

:09:17.:09:28.

Norfolk police have said a victim was stabbed in the head and neck

:09:29.:09:32.

whilst walking his doings in the woodland, he was 82 and seen as

:09:33.:09:37.

well-mannered, well-natured and well-liked. Officers have appealed

:09:38.:09:44.

for information. Police in West London are appealing for help to

:09:45.:09:55.

find a person who appeared to push a man into a pedestrian into the road.

:09:56.:09:59.

The oncroping bus is forced to swerve into the next lane to avoid

:10:00.:10:03.

hitting her. The bus stopped and passengers tended to the woman who

:10:04.:10:08.

received minor injuries. An appeal has been launch for witnesses or

:10:09.:10:11.

anyone who recognises the jogger, described as white, in his early to

:10:12.:10:16.

mid 30s with brown eyes and short brown hair. Anyone with information

:10:17.:10:22.

is asked to call police. They can also call Crimestoppers. Crime stop

:10:23.:10:30.

Britain's most senior judge has told the government it must provide more

:10:31.:10:33.

clarity about how UK law will be developed after Brexit.

:10:34.:10:35.

Currently, UK legislation is subject to rulings made

:10:36.:10:38.

Lord Neuberger said Parliament must be "very clear" in telling

:10:39.:10:42.

the judges what to do about decisions of this court

:10:43.:10:45.

Another victim of the 11 September 2001 attack

:10:46.:10:50.

on the World Trade Center in New York City has been identified

:10:51.:10:53.

The name of the man is being withheld at

:10:54.:10:56.

The last time a victim was identified was March 2015.

:10:57.:11:00.

Only 60% of the victims of the attack have

:11:01.:11:02.

There are calls to ban the use of tasers on anyone under 18.

:11:03.:11:13.

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health say the devices

:11:14.:11:15.

are harmful and should not be used on children - and adds that Tasering

:11:16.:11:19.

a minor contravenes the UN Conventions on the Rights

:11:20.:11:21.

The youngest child to be fired at with a taser is thought to be 14

:11:22.:11:32.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am.

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Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

:11:36.:11:38.

use the hashtag Victoria Live and if you text, you will be charged

:11:39.:11:41.

Let's get some sport now with Leah and so near yet so far

:11:42.:11:45.

for Britain's Laura Muir at the world athletics last night?

:11:46.:11:49.

It was another disappointing night in terms of medals

:11:50.:11:51.

She said it was gut wrenching. She was overtaken at the end. She missed

:11:52.:12:09.

out by 700th of a second at the finish line. It was agonisingly

:12:10.:12:14.

close for the 24-year-old who had actually recovered from a stress

:12:15.:12:18.

fracture in her foot in June and, even though she said she was gutted

:12:19.:12:25.

she said she gave it her all. Another disappointing night

:12:26.:12:28.

generally for Britain in terms of medals? Yes, Sophie Hitchon left the

:12:29.:12:36.

hammer cage in tears, despite giving it her best throw. She came seventh.

:12:37.:12:42.

She couldn't hold her emowses back. It shows the passion. 12 months ago

:12:43.:12:46.

from last night, she won bronze in Rio but it wasn't meant to be for

:12:47.:12:52.

her this time around. She's a former ballerina. That meant no British

:12:53.:12:59.

medals but they of the men, as you are seeing, made the 200 metres

:13:00.:13:07.

semi-finals. Danny Talbot got a personal best.

:13:08.:13:16.

Justin Gatlin's agent has been speaking to the BBC

:13:17.:13:18.

in the wake of the booing after his 100 metre win.

:13:19.:13:20.

Lots of talk about this. People think the American strinter

:13:21.:13:29.

shouldn't have been taking part in this because he served for doping

:13:30.:13:33.

twice. The IAAF reinstated him. They say he hasn't broken any rules this

:13:34.:13:38.

time around but his agent has spoken out, saying that everyone should

:13:39.:13:41.

basically get over the fact that Gatlin served the drugs bans and

:13:42.:13:45.

he's not particularly happy with Lord Coe either. Have a listen. I

:13:46.:13:52.

take offence to, with all due respect, Lord Coe, he is a part of

:13:53.:13:57.

the IAAF who set the rules and punishment and when you serve the

:13:58.:14:01.

punishment you are supposed to be reinstated, which these athletes who

:14:02.:14:05.

have offended and abused some of the rules have, and if you don't want

:14:06.:14:08.

them in, you should change the rules. You don't allow them in and

:14:09.:14:16.

still condemn them. We are talking about 11 years, the doping ban, so

:14:17.:14:20.

at some point we all have to move past this.

:14:21.:14:25.

And it seems like some of the athletes have been laid

:14:26.:14:28.

Yes, they are staying at one of the team hotels in London and have come

:14:29.:14:40.

down with gastroenteritis. The hotel will investigate the origins of the

:14:41.:14:43.

illness but they say they believe the hotel was not the source of the

:14:44.:14:46.

bug and they've made sure anyone affected isn't in contact with other

:14:47.:14:54.

guests but it's hit some big names, including Isaac Makwala from

:14:55.:14:57.

Botswana who missed the 200 metres last night. He's a favourite for the

:14:58.:15:04.

400 metres too. Several other German and Canadian athletes staying at the

:15:05.:15:08.

hotel fell ill last week too. We'll have to see that one. More at 9. 30.

:15:09.:15:15.

In half an hour's time we will talk to a close friend of the 20-year-old

:15:16.:15:23.

British model who is back in the UK after allegedly being kidnapped in

:15:24.:15:25.

Milan. That is at 9.45am. This programme has learned that

:15:26.:15:30.

a number of UK women from South Asian backgrounds

:15:31.:15:32.

who have cancer, hide it, because of a perceived

:15:33.:15:35.

stigma about the disease. Researchers say they're worried that

:15:36.:15:40.

cultural taboos are leading to more women dying prematurely

:15:41.:15:43.

in the South Asian community. We've discovered that some

:15:44.:15:49.

hide their diagnosis from family and friends out of shame

:15:50.:15:52.

and in one case a woman only sought treatment when her

:15:53.:15:55.

breast was "rotten". Our reporter Amber Haque has been

:15:56.:15:57.

looking into what needs to be done She said she was going to refuse

:15:58.:16:00.

chemo because God gave it to her. The reluctance to go

:16:01.:16:07.

for a smear is deemed to be like you're being unfaithful,

:16:08.:16:11.

it is like infidelity. I've become aware of South Asian

:16:12.:16:15.

women who have had a diagnosis of cancer and they've

:16:16.:16:19.

kept it very hidden. She says, "You've been given cancer

:16:20.:16:22.

and you can cover this up now." A woman who came with a rotten

:16:23.:16:26.

breast and it was smelling so much that you couldn't even sit

:16:27.:16:29.

next to it. Research suggests that one in two

:16:30.:16:37.

of us will get cancer And some people, particularly

:16:38.:16:39.

in the South Asian community, They are not going for cancer

:16:40.:16:45.

screening, and in some instances, they are even

:16:46.:16:52.

hiding their diagnosis. Because it's a shame,

:16:53.:16:53.

it's a death sentence And there's a concern

:16:54.:17:01.

that belief is causing The breasts aren't just seen

:17:02.:17:07.

as another part of your body. Therefore, anyone touching them

:17:08.:17:11.

is doing it in a sexual way. This is from the perspective

:17:12.:17:17.

of the husband. Praveena stumbled upon a lump

:17:18.:17:31.

in her breast when she was 36. She grew up in a strict Indian

:17:32.:17:35.

community, where even talking about the disease was seen

:17:36.:17:37.

as something shameful. When she was diagnosed,

:17:38.:17:42.

she decided to hide it. So, a lot of it, in terms

:17:43.:17:47.

of not telling my family, I didn't tell them because I just

:17:48.:17:54.

thought if people hear the fact that I've got cancer,

:17:55.:17:57.

they're going to think Maybe I lived a bad life,

:17:58.:17:59.

therefore God has punished me And I just didn't want to be

:18:00.:18:04.

associated with that. And so, hiding it was

:18:05.:18:09.

the obvious choice for me. It was lonely.

:18:10.:18:14.

I won't deny that. I was going to chemotherapy

:18:15.:18:16.

sessions on my own. I drove

:18:17.:18:25.

myself there and back. And I had very dark

:18:26.:18:26.

days because of that. I suppose I probably also went

:18:27.:18:29.

through some form of depression. In recent years now,

:18:30.:18:34.

I've become aware of South Asian women who have had a diagnosis

:18:35.:18:44.

of breast cancer or cervical cancer and they have kept it very hidden,

:18:45.:18:47.

they have hit a in their homes. Pooja is the lead researcher

:18:48.:18:50.

for a team called CLAHRC. They're funded by a research

:18:51.:18:52.

arm of the NHS and work with public and professionals

:18:53.:18:55.

on health inequalities. She has spent the past few years

:18:56.:18:58.

looking at attitudes towards cancer She says she's worried by some

:18:59.:19:01.

of the things she has heard Some of the other conversations I've

:19:02.:19:06.

had with Bangladeshi women that really surprised me,

:19:07.:19:11.

and it's quite sad really, they would hide the shame

:19:12.:19:19.

in their eyes of having a cancer diagnosis because they felt it would

:19:20.:19:22.

influence their children's future. And that potentially, no one

:19:23.:19:24.

would want to marry their children, And some woman went to the extent

:19:25.:19:27.

of not even having treatments, because if they went for treatment,

:19:28.:19:35.

people will now that they have had cancer because they

:19:36.:19:38.

might lose their hair. Why do you think going

:19:39.:19:40.

for cancer screening is such The reluctance to go

:19:41.:19:43.

for a smear is that you don't For the husband, it's deemed

:19:44.:19:47.

to be like you are being You've been tainted

:19:48.:19:53.

by someone else all almost. I've also heard through other

:19:54.:20:06.

friends in conversation about how sometimes people felt the smear test

:20:07.:20:10.

will actually stretch them and therefore that's not

:20:11.:20:14.

something they want to do. As shocking as that may seem,

:20:15.:20:16.

these are real things that actually When it came to South Asian women,

:20:17.:20:19.

there were some specific issues that actually were raised

:20:20.:20:27.

within this work. For example, there was more

:20:28.:20:29.

of an issue around shame, an issue around modesty and about

:20:30.:20:39.

the influence from the males and If they didn't think that women

:20:40.:20:42.

should be going for screening, What are some of the more shocking

:20:43.:20:46.

misconceptions you have I think the fact that cancer doesn't

:20:47.:20:49.

happen to South Asian women. As well as that, another aspect

:20:50.:20:54.

when it came to going for smears, was about women losing

:20:55.:20:57.

their virginity by And then again, not being able

:20:58.:20:59.

to get married because there would be proof that they weren't

:21:00.:21:11.

a virgin any more. These were quite surprising, I

:21:12.:21:17.

think, conversations that I've had. It's hard to say just how

:21:18.:21:20.

serious the problem is because very little information has

:21:21.:21:22.

been collected on ethnicity Research we do have has shown Asian

:21:23.:21:24.

women with breast cancer have poorer survival,

:21:25.:21:32.

and are more likely to present with advanced tumours

:21:33.:21:35.

when they do get diagnosed. Experts tell us they're concerned

:21:36.:21:41.

that cultural stigmas are leading I worked in the cancer

:21:42.:21:43.

field for many years, maybe 30 years or more,

:21:44.:21:52.

and over the time I've seen a lot of Asian women,

:21:53.:21:54.

and the sad thing is that because of the ignorance

:21:55.:21:57.

of not presenting early, not following or going

:21:58.:22:00.

through the screening programme or not examining their breasts,

:22:01.:22:04.

they are presented late So then there is a stigma attached

:22:05.:22:06.

that when you have got cancer, Do we know for a fact that

:22:07.:22:15.

South Asian women are having poorer I'd say yeah, the literature does

:22:16.:22:19.

highlight and the evidence suggests that South Asian women are more

:22:20.:22:28.

likely to have worse outcomes. And would it be fair to say that

:22:29.:22:31.

some of those deaths are avoidable? Yeah, you could say that some

:22:32.:22:34.

of them are preventable because if they had of been

:22:35.:22:44.

for their screening it may have been picked up

:22:45.:22:46.

when the cancer was minute. The concern is that women

:22:47.:22:49.

are suffering unnecessarily. South Asian women are more

:22:50.:22:50.

likely to be from poor and deprived backgrounds,

:22:51.:22:53.

meaning the levels of Charities and local authorities do

:22:54.:22:54.

what they can with translated But should the community

:22:55.:22:59.

be doing more? I'm meeting a group of Asian women

:23:00.:23:08.

who have all been affected So, before I was diagnosed,

:23:09.:23:12.

I didn't know anything. I'd never self-checked

:23:13.:23:21.

and we never really spoke about it in the house,

:23:22.:23:22.

about the importance of self-checking, so

:23:23.:23:24.

for me when I found out, It was a pure accident when I found

:23:25.:23:27.

a lump in my breast. I would describe it as a size

:23:28.:23:35.

of a golf ball. To give you an idea of how big

:23:36.:23:38.

the tumour, the cancer is. I was very fortunate

:23:39.:23:41.

that it hadn't spread. Again, I think the biggest

:23:42.:23:43.

shock for me was, why For some reason it never

:23:44.:23:45.

hit my radar at all. We'd had heart disease,

:23:46.:23:51.

diabetes in our family, But cancer was never mentioned,

:23:52.:23:56.

cancer was never spoken about. I had one sister ring me up

:23:57.:24:03.

and said sister, I think She said, "Well, you have been

:24:04.:24:06.

given cancer, you have So my mum, I don't think she's ever

:24:07.:24:21.

been for a smear test. The thought of somebody

:24:22.:24:25.

seeing her probably naked from the waist below was the most

:24:26.:24:27.

uncomfortable feeling in the world for her,

:24:28.:24:30.

so she just didn't want to go. Even though we've been

:24:31.:24:32.

through everything. These, I'm hoping, are very

:24:33.:24:36.

small numbers of people. If we know that there are some

:24:37.:24:38.

circumstances in local communities where the men's view of this

:24:39.:24:41.

is quite important, and then it would be for the local areas,

:24:42.:24:44.

the GPs or the CCGs to understand that, to talk to those groups

:24:45.:24:47.

of people and help unpick some There will be men who have

:24:48.:24:51.

comfortably allowed their wives, and even encouraged their wives

:24:52.:24:57.

to have these things, Why wouldn't you want your wife

:24:58.:24:59.

not to have cancer? How often do you see Asian women

:25:00.:25:08.

that have had positive experiences That are very few Asian

:25:09.:25:14.

women who have had a lot This reminds me of a woman who came

:25:15.:25:18.

to see us with a fungal thing, a rotten breast, and it was smelling

:25:19.:25:23.

so much that you couldn't I don't know how long

:25:24.:25:25.

she was hiding that. So she had literally

:25:26.:25:29.

left it that long? Because the cancer had spread

:25:30.:25:31.

to other parts of the body as well. I mean, it was very

:25:32.:25:45.

sad for the young lady But because she couldn't

:25:46.:25:47.

share that with everyone. How often do you hear that women

:25:48.:25:52.

feel like they can't share In my case, there was

:25:53.:25:55.

no support as such. My husband just said,

:25:56.:26:03.

"I cannot cope with this", But I felt like there was no

:26:04.:26:05.

one I could talk to. I remember speaking to my in-laws

:26:06.:26:13.

and they said, "Don't cry, you have to be strong

:26:14.:26:18.

for your husband and your child". But I want my husband to be that

:26:19.:26:21.

strength and that shield now. Why do I have to be the one who has

:26:22.:26:24.

do pick up the weight in the Asian family and be strong when I'm

:26:25.:26:30.

going through all of this? I just thought, I don't want to be

:26:31.:26:32.

strong, I want it to be At chemo, I spoke to an Asian woman

:26:33.:26:35.

who really found it difficult Her husband literally stood

:26:36.:26:40.

over her during chemo to make sure So that when they left

:26:41.:26:44.

the unit, she was looking When we talk about educating

:26:45.:26:48.

ourselves, we need to educate our brothers and fathers

:26:49.:26:57.

and husbands even more. I don't think that conversations

:26:58.:26:59.

happen in the house. Before any educational TV or any

:27:00.:27:01.

adverts or leaflets or centres, we need to get to a point

:27:02.:27:05.

where parents and mothers are comfortable with educating

:27:06.:27:11.

their daughters at home to say lets, Anything, any changes to your body,

:27:12.:27:14.

let's talk about it. What would you like to see,

:27:15.:27:17.

moving forward now, So, we've got some data on what has

:27:18.:27:19.

been implemented, but we haven't got data on how effective those

:27:20.:27:26.

implementations have been. And I think we need to collect that

:27:27.:27:30.

data so that we can really influence the type of interventions that

:27:31.:27:37.

are required and which aren't working and which

:27:38.:27:39.

ones aren't working. So ultimately, we can

:27:40.:27:40.

work with public health When we get the CLAHRC results,

:27:41.:27:42.

we will implement those things and we've got every reason to think

:27:43.:27:46.

that will help save women from Asian backgrounds lives

:27:47.:27:51.

as well as other people from poor It's that moment of realisation

:27:52.:27:54.

of me losing my hair. And knowing that because it's

:27:55.:28:03.

on the outside rather on the inside, and visible to the world,

:28:04.:28:05.

it's something that he wouldn't Praveena completed her chemo

:28:06.:28:08.

and is now in remission. She and her husband got divorced

:28:09.:28:13.

during her treatment, something she says was partly due

:28:14.:28:16.

to cultural expectations Do you think that getting cancer led

:28:17.:28:19.

to the breakdown of your marriage? The bearing on him was that my wife

:28:20.:28:27.

had to look in a particular way. And for her to look ill in front

:28:28.:28:37.

of other people was not acceptable. So he never knew, he will do now,

:28:38.:28:41.

but he never knew the extent of the side-effects that I had

:28:42.:28:45.

from the chemotherapy. For Praveena, it's the community

:28:46.:28:49.

itself that needs to work harder. And no matter how educated you are,

:28:50.:28:57.

and I am from the medical profession, and I know all these

:28:58.:29:01.

things, and yet I still felt I had And that's down to my upbringing,

:29:02.:29:04.

down to the baggage. Thank you for your comments. Daniel

:29:05.:29:28.

picking up on the last point, "Many South Asian women are doctors and

:29:29.:29:32.

work in the NHS. How can this stigma be the case?" Yasmin says,

:29:33.:29:37.

"Delighted you are tackling the stigma and raising awareness. Kerry

:29:38.:29:42.

says, "No need for stigma. You should just reach out to people. You

:29:43.:29:47.

won't be alone. You would have loads of caring, lovely people going

:29:48.:29:51.

through the same battle as you." Whatever your own experience, do get

:29:52.:29:55.

in touch. You can e-mail me. You can message

:29:56.:30:00.

me on Twitter using the hashtag Victoria Live.

:30:01.:30:02.

Children as young as 14 are thought to have been hit with tasers.

:30:03.:30:07.

Should police be banned from using them on anyone

:30:08.:30:11.

And in a few minutes, we'll speak to a friend of Chloe Ayling,

:30:12.:30:16.

the model who says she was held captive by gang in Italy for a week.

:30:17.:30:26.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news.

:30:27.:30:37.

Chloe Ayling who is 20 and from South London says she was told by

:30:38.:30:44.

her kidnappers she'd be sold as a sex slave in the Middle East. She

:30:45.:30:49.

says she was acting unduh derest when she was seen out shopping with

:30:50.:30:53.

her captor. She was told that people were there watching and ready to

:30:54.:30:57.

kill her if she tried anything so she thought that the best idea was

:30:58.:31:05.

to go along with it and to be nice, in a way, to her captor. This

:31:06.:31:10.

programme has learnt a number of women in the UK from South Asian

:31:11.:31:14.

backgrounds who have cancer hide it because of a perceived stigma about

:31:15.:31:18.

the disease. Researchers say they're worried cultural taboos are leading

:31:19.:31:21.

to more women dying prematurely, some women even hide their Tighe

:31:22.:31:25.

know six from family and friends out of shame. In one case a woman only

:31:26.:31:29.

sought treatment when her breast was rotten.

:31:30.:31:33.

More than 40 maternity units in England closed to new admissions at

:31:34.:31:38.

some point last year according to data obtained by Labour. 42 out of

:31:39.:31:47.

96 Trusts said they'd shut wards temporarily on 382 occasions.

:31:48.:31:50.

Labour's blamed staffing shortages but the Government says that is

:31:51.:31:54.

misleading and closures are well rehearsed. Police in West London are

:31:55.:31:57.

asking for help to identify a jogger who appeared to push a pedestrian

:31:58.:32:05.

into the path of a bus, dramatic CCTV showing the incident which

:32:06.:32:09.

happened in May. It shows the man running along Putney Bridge and

:32:10.:32:11.

appearing to push the woman into the road. The bus is forced to swerve

:32:12.:32:16.

into the next lane to aLloyd hitting her. The bus stopped and passengers

:32:17.:32:20.

tended to the woman who received minor injuries. An appeal has been

:32:21.:32:25.

launched for witnesses or anyone who recognises the jogger, described as

:32:26.:32:28.

white, early to mid 30s with brown eyes and short brown hair. Anyone

:32:29.:32:33.

with information is asked to call police or Crimestoppers. Exam

:32:34.:32:38.

results in Scotland have been published this morning. The

:32:39.:32:43.

proportion of A-to-Cs passes fell slightly from 77. 77.2% to 77% this

:32:44.:32:50.

year, almost 137,000 candidates receiving their results through the

:32:51.:32:52.

post today, but more than a third signed up to get their results by

:32:53.:32:55.

text or e-mail. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:32:56.:33:02.

News - more at 10am. The perceived stigma surrounding

:33:03.:33:13.

cancer, particularly for women in the South Asian community, on that,

:33:14.:33:17.

Laura says fantastic coverage of this. The stigma faced among South

:33:18.:33:24.

Asian women, thank you for lifting the lid and another viewer says

:33:25.:33:29.

thank you for highlighting the stigma of how South Asian women face

:33:30.:33:34.

when cancer hits. It's sad and we need toe teach the men to help. If

:33:35.:33:38.

you want to read more, please do, it's on the BBC News website.

:33:39.:33:45.

Leah is back now with the sport. Great Britain's big medal hope in

:33:46.:33:52.

the 1500 metres says she's gutted she missed out on a bronze. Laura

:33:53.:33:57.

Muir was tipped at the finish line in dramatic fashion. She finished

:33:58.:34:02.

fourth. She now goes in the 5000 metres this week. Former ballerina

:34:03.:34:09.

Sophie Hitchon couldn't contain her tears in the hammer final. This time

:34:10.:34:14.

last year she managed a bronze in Rio but looked utterly devastated

:34:15.:34:19.

leaving the rammer cage last night. Several stars have suffered illness,

:34:20.:34:31.

including Isaac Watkala. One of the hotels says it was not the source of

:34:32.:34:35.

the outbreak of the Castro enteritis. Could Gareth Bale be

:34:36.:34:41.

heading back to the Premier League? Jose Mourinho says he'll fight to

:34:42.:34:45.

sign the Real Madrid forward. Real Madrid and Manchester United

:34:46.:34:49.

play each other tonight. That is all from me, Jess is back with more at

:34:50.:34:51.

10. There are calls to ban the use

:34:52.:34:56.

of tasers on anyone under 18. It comes as new figures show

:34:57.:34:59.

police have used tasers That doesn't mean they've

:35:00.:35:01.

actually been fired - it could mean taken out

:35:02.:35:04.

of the holster or drawn. The youngest child to be fired

:35:05.:35:07.

with a taser is thought to be 14. Now the Royal College of Paediatrics

:35:08.:35:11.

and Child Health say the devices are harmful and should not

:35:12.:35:14.

be used on children, and adds that Tasering

:35:15.:35:16.

a minor contravenes the UN Conventions on the Rights

:35:17.:35:20.

of the Child. Here's a short video showing police

:35:21.:35:24.

training how to use a Taser. We can speak now to Steve White,

:35:25.:36:06.

chair of the Police Federation, who is also a serving officer

:36:07.:36:09.

of 29 years. Oliver Feeley-Sprage, human rights

:36:10.:36:12.

group Amnesty International's Welcome. Explain Steve what a Taser

:36:13.:36:26.

is and why the police use it sometimes? It's basically an

:36:27.:36:31.

electrical device powered by battery, it fires two barbs, simple

:36:32.:36:38.

O-level physics essentially, if the two barbs go to the sub ject, the

:36:39.:36:44.

current runs which produces muscle contractions in the person that it's

:36:45.:36:48.

being fired on. Time and time again it's shown to be extremely

:36:49.:36:51.

effective. What is important to recognise is that as you rightly

:36:52.:36:57.

pointed out, Taser use is not really about firing, it's about the threat

:36:58.:37:00.

of use and understanding that if you don't comply with what the officer

:37:01.:37:04.

is saying, this could be coming your way. Nine times out of ten, probably

:37:05.:37:09.

even higher proportion than that, people understand the threat and it

:37:10.:37:15.

immediately deescalates the situation, regardless of the

:37:16.:37:19.

person's age. Do you accept that? For us it's a specialist tool that

:37:20.:37:27.

has a clear rationale to be used in particular circumstances, but it

:37:28.:37:31.

comes with risks. It's not just us that says that, it's the

:37:32.:37:34.

Government's own medical advice. It points to the fact that it can be

:37:35.:37:37.

lethal. There have been deaths in the UK, there are a number of

:37:38.:37:41.

inquests going on at the moment. There are two cases at least that

:37:42.:37:45.

I'm aware of where Taser use has been linked to the deaths. They're

:37:46.:37:53.

extremely painful as weapons. As a human rights organisation, we say

:37:54.:37:57.

their use must be incredibly carefully controlled and must only

:37:58.:38:00.

be used in certain circumstances, that's where our concern lies here.

:38:01.:38:05.

Would you say they are only used in the circumstances where it's

:38:06.:38:07.

absolutely necessary as outlined? Absolutely. Every time a police

:38:08.:38:11.

officer says he needs a tactical option in terms of force, they have

:38:12.:38:15.

to do it in the terms of the threat they're facing and the public are

:38:16.:38:19.

facing. It's not a question of give every copper a Taser so instead of

:38:20.:38:23.

stopping them you can red dot them. We are talking about a tactical

:38:24.:38:28.

option. Whilst nothing is 100% safe, statistics show the instances of

:38:29.:38:31.

harm to police officers and suspects are gone down since Taser has been

:38:32.:38:35.

introduced. I would much rather that someone had the threat of Taser than

:38:36.:38:40.

was hit with a baton, iron bar or deployed with CS. We often end up

:38:41.:38:44.

rolling around on the floor with people when we are detaining them.

:38:45.:38:48.

Injuries happen and some are serious. Taser is a very safe

:38:49.:38:53.

tactical option. This tweet from Anthony which I'll put to you

:38:54.:38:59.

Oliver, reusing Tasers on children, what are the police expected to do

:39:00.:39:03.

to defend themselves if a "child" comes at them armed with a knife or

:39:04.:39:08.

worse a gun which might be loaded? OK, well let's look at this first

:39:09.:39:11.

from the Government's own medical advice. They clearly say that

:39:12.:39:17.

Tasering young people carries risks, both to health but also

:39:18.:39:21.

psychologically. That is reflected in the UN standards that clearly say

:39:22.:39:25.

it's risky and today UK medical bodies have come out and said so. So

:39:26.:39:29.

I think we start from the perspective here that Tasering

:39:30.:39:32.

children is something that really shouldn't happen. But it doesn't say

:39:33.:39:37.

that it should never happen because there are extreme circumstances

:39:38.:39:42.

where in that instance... So in this example that Anthony is talking

:39:43.:39:47.

about? Yes, where somebody may die and the tactical option wasn't used.

:39:48.:39:50.

I think if you set the standard which says you shouldn't be using

:39:51.:39:54.

this against children unless there is really no alternative, that would

:39:55.:39:58.

probably be a sensible way forward. Is that not the standard, are you

:39:59.:40:02.

not actually saying the same thing? We are saying before, we do agree on

:40:03.:40:06.

most things. Because you are not calling for it to be banned on under

:40:07.:40:11.

18s are you? No, but we do want greater protection. We want it much

:40:12.:40:15.

clearly specified in the guidelines on Taser use that Tasering children

:40:16.:40:19.

comes with additional risks and that there should be a strict prohibition

:40:20.:40:23.

against using it. But not saying that in all circumstances you

:40:24.:40:27.

couldn't, for the example of the tweet, you know, that is a clear

:40:28.:40:31.

example where the exception includes the rule. We need a check on

:40:32.:40:36.

reality. It's very well sitting round thinking about the ins and

:40:37.:40:41.

outs and the guidance 679 our officers face the threats day in day

:40:42.:40:46.

out. We have seen a rise in knife crime for example... Sure and nobody

:40:47.:40:51.

would disagree with that. But Oliver is saying, on the specific guidance

:40:52.:40:56.

and really that language is tight for an officer to read and learn and

:40:57.:41:01.

absorb, do you agree with the kind of language that Oliver's used?

:41:02.:41:08.

Let's go back to the practical application, in terms of assessing

:41:09.:41:11.

someone's age, are you going to go through a semi interview before you

:41:12.:41:15.

find out. Of course that's completely impractical and people

:41:16.:41:18.

would understand that there are some people who're under 18 and look mid

:41:19.:41:22.

20s, there are some who're over 18 and look as though they're young

:41:23.:41:26.

teens. It's a very difficult area which is why it's got to be based on

:41:27.:41:32.

threat and risk, it can't be based on an arbitrary figure, whether it

:41:33.:41:36.

be 16, 21, simple as that. Is that a fair point? I think what I would say

:41:37.:41:40.

is there is a mismatch between the Government's medical advice on the

:41:41.:41:44.

use of Taser and the guidance in place in writing about one Tasers

:41:45.:41:49.

should be used. But on that specific point about under 18s, how would you

:41:50.:41:54.

know? There are 15-year-old lads who look 21? Exactly and that comes down

:41:55.:41:59.

to the officer training, that is another issue that we've not been

:42:00.:42:03.

getting into here. It's a key thing that the officers have to be most

:42:04.:42:11.

highly trained. Matt says people forget there are many six foot plus

:42:12.:42:17.

14-year-olds and when you combine with that with mind-altering drugs,

:42:18.:42:21.

a Taser is a safe way for the police and the perpetrator to gain control

:42:22.:42:25.

of the situation. Thank you both very much.

:42:26.:42:29.

The Home Office says they are an important tactical operation for

:42:30.:42:36.

trained officers, particularly in potentially violent situations where

:42:37.:42:39.

other things have failed. The statement says the police have to

:42:40.:42:43.

record the location and outcome of all Taser usage along with the

:42:44.:42:44.

ethnicity and age of those involved. The Toronto police officer

:42:45.:42:53.

who bought a shoplifter A British model who was allegedly

:42:54.:42:56.

held captive by a gang in Italy was told she would be sold

:42:57.:43:01.

in the Middle East "for sex," Francesco Peschi also told the BBC

:43:02.:43:05.

that 20-year-old Chloe Ayling had been acting under duress

:43:06.:43:10.

when she was taken shopping The ordeal is alleged to have

:43:11.:43:14.

taken place last month, and was made public by Italian

:43:15.:43:22.

police only last week. She was told that people

:43:23.:43:24.

were there watching her and ready to kill her if she tried anything,

:43:25.:43:29.

so she thought that the best And to be nice in a way to her

:43:30.:43:46.

captor because he told her that he wanted to release her.

:43:47.:43:48.

Let's talk exclusively now to Carla Belluci,

:43:49.:43:51.

a close friend of Chloe Ayling who has known her since she was 15.

:43:52.:43:55.

Carla has been speaking to Chloe in the last couple of days.

:43:56.:43:59.

A friend of Chloe - how's she been in the last couple of days?

:44:00.:44:16.

She's doing relatively well. As soon as I knew that it was Chloe, I

:44:17.:44:21.

called her and it was very emotional. What did she say about

:44:22.:44:24.

what happened to her? Obviously a lot cannot be talked ability because

:44:25.:44:27.

of the police and what is happening with the case but she did say that

:44:28.:44:37.

she was drugged and drove I believe 100-odd miles whilst in a suitcase.

:44:38.:44:42.

What did she say about that ordeal? She said it was horrendous. A lot of

:44:43.:44:46.

it she was trying not to get herself into trouble as she was talking to

:44:47.:44:51.

me but I could feel in her voice she was trying to be strong. And was she

:44:52.:44:58.

able to recall lots of detail or was stuff coming back to her? Stuff is

:44:59.:45:02.

coming back to her. I didn't want to step too deep by saying, what

:45:03.:45:06.

actually happened. But she said she was drugged with ketamine and I

:45:07.:45:09.

think now memories are coming back to her slowly. Right. You will have

:45:10.:45:15.

heard that her lawyer talked today about the reason that she was seen

:45:16.:45:19.

shopping with the captor before she was freed was because he threatened

:45:20.:45:24.

her and said, you know, if you don't do what I say, you are at risk of

:45:25.:45:29.

losing your life, effectively. Did she talk about that? The first I

:45:30.:45:33.

knew of that was when I read last night or this morning, it's come out

:45:34.:45:37.

that she was seen shopping with him. That she did not mention to me. What

:45:38.:45:41.

do you think of what the lawyer said about that?

:45:42.:45:45.

I mean if you are under that circumstance where somebody is

:45:46.:45:49.

threatening your life, you are going to do whatever you're going to do to

:45:50.:45:53.

keep yourself safe. So I don't really want to comment. She was

:45:54.:45:56.

there. She was going through it at the time. You said she was strong on

:45:57.:46:04.

the phone to you on Sunday. I mean you've known her for five years. Is

:46:05.:46:08.

she strong? Is she wise? I wouldn't say she is the wisest of girls. She

:46:09.:46:12.

is be a little bit naive, she's young, but I think she has had three

:46:13.:46:16.

weeks to get used to this, so it happened a few weeks ago so she has

:46:17.:46:21.

been in Italy while this has been going on, for us this is new, but

:46:22.:46:25.

she had a few weeks to get used to it. I would say she is quite naive

:46:26.:46:30.

to get herself in that position. I will ask you more about that in a

:46:31.:46:34.

moment. Was she upset on the phone? Did she cry? She seemed upset and

:46:35.:46:40.

kept saying, "I'm all right." Because I was upset, that was my

:46:41.:46:45.

initial reaction. I am emotional. She was like don't cry. I'm OK. She

:46:46.:46:53.

was almost reassuring me and I wanted to reassure her. Did she

:46:54.:46:58.

explain why she stayed in Italy? She had to stay in Italy whilst the

:46:59.:47:02.

investigation was going on. She had to remain in the country. So you say

:47:03.:47:07.

she is not the wisest of the girls. She is naive. She is young. What do

:47:08.:47:13.

you know about the arrangement that she had made for this photo-shoot in

:47:14.:47:17.

Milan without naming names? I just know that she was sent to this

:47:18.:47:22.

photo-shoot via a male agent... In London? In London. That has got a

:47:23.:47:28.

bit of a reputation and I think she did tell me on Sunday that he found

:47:29.:47:33.

out that the studio was fake two days after she had gone missing and

:47:34.:47:37.

my argument on that as working in the industry if you can find that

:47:38.:47:41.

out after she is missing why could you not find it out before sending

:47:42.:47:46.

her because he was able to access that information that the studio was

:47:47.:47:51.

fake. We don't know if that's true. Who told you that? Chloe told me on

:47:52.:47:57.

Sunday that it was a fake set-up and the studio didn't exist. I think she

:47:58.:48:01.

believed she was going to a studio for a photo-shoot. She believed it?

:48:02.:48:07.

Yes. Understood. Again, without naming names, what mistakes did she

:48:08.:48:12.

make as a young glamour model, you know, getting involved in this

:48:13.:48:15.

photo-shoot because there are dos and don'ts, aren't there? I would

:48:16.:48:20.

say, the person that she has dealt with is, I would listen to advice

:48:21.:48:24.

from other girls and be aware and always have your guard up. I would

:48:25.:48:29.

never travel to a foreign country alone, not knowing where I'm going

:48:30.:48:33.

until that is like established that everything is legit and real. And in

:48:34.:48:39.

the glamour modelling world would you, is it all right for a male

:48:40.:48:44.

agent or a male photographer to arrange this kind of thing? It

:48:45.:48:47.

happens all the time. Does it? It happens all the time. Girls are

:48:48.:48:51.

desperate for fame. They believe anything, you know, come and do a

:48:52.:48:55.

shoot. Me being a little bit older and wiser, I would have someone

:48:56.:49:01.

beside me. When I used to model I would take somebody with me. I feel

:49:02.:49:06.

uncomfortable going to meet a male photographer in a location and doing

:49:07.:49:11.

a shoot. That's not my comfort zone. There are a number of people who

:49:12.:49:15.

think something about this story doesn't add up. That it feels a bit

:49:16.:49:22.

fishy. What would you say? That's such a hard one, Chloe being a

:49:23.:49:28.

friend of mine. I just think, Chloe is a good girl. A little bit naive.

:49:29.:49:33.

Could she be misled? I just don't want to say to be honest? She,

:49:34.:49:39.

obviously she has grown up to when I knew her from the beginning at 15.

:49:40.:49:43.

She is now a 20-year-old woman, but if anything happened like that, I

:49:44.:49:48.

would say she was misled. Did she always, because you first did a

:49:49.:49:51.

commercial shoot with her when she was 15. Did she always want to get

:49:52.:49:56.

into glamour modelling? At 15 I remember her saying I want to be a

:49:57.:50:00.

glamour model, but she had to wait until she was 18. It was always her

:50:01.:50:04.

goal. Now, she is doing. When you spoke to her on Sunday, she said to

:50:05.:50:08.

you that she was doing a shoot this week? I believe, again, from what

:50:09.:50:15.

she said, I believe she was doing a photo-shoot for page three because

:50:16.:50:19.

we were going to met up today. For a newspaper? For page three, I

:50:20.:50:24.

believe. Yes. Yes. What do you think of that? Each to their own, maybe it

:50:25.:50:28.

is her way of coping and to just get back out there. For me, I think that

:50:29.:50:33.

would be the last thing on her mind, but she has her reasons and maybe it

:50:34.:50:37.

is her way of dealing with happened to her to just get back out there

:50:38.:50:41.

and it is her way of coping. You run an agency now. You used to do

:50:42.:50:47.

glamour modelling yourself. Were you ever treated poorly? I can recall a

:50:48.:50:51.

situation where I did a photo-shoot with a male photographer, turning up

:50:52.:50:55.

at a location, didn't feel comfortable from the start and

:50:56.:50:59.

literally, just took my clothes off, I was wearing, and left all my stuff

:51:00.:51:04.

and ran. Tell me what made you feel uncomfortable? Just the way the

:51:05.:51:07.

photographer was acting. He wanted more and I knew it was fishy. It was

:51:08.:51:12.

just your instinct? It was my instinct to get out of here. This is

:51:13.:51:15.

not a good situation. When you say he wanted more, more revealing, more

:51:16.:51:21.

exposure? More exposure. OK. It is a competitive business. It is. All

:51:22.:51:26.

modelling is. And as you said, people are ambitious. Young women

:51:27.:51:29.

are ambitious and desperate to get on and get ahead of their rivals,

:51:30.:51:34.

but you've got to take care, haven't you? You have got to take care.

:51:35.:51:39.

Safety is first. Nothing is worth risking your life for, no fame,

:51:40.:51:43.

money, safety is number one. Is there any regulation? Presumably

:51:44.:51:49.

anyone can set up and be an agent? Anyone can set up and be an agent.

:51:50.:51:54.

Photographer? Anyone can hide behind a screen. It is the same with dating

:51:55.:51:58.

websites and social media, I blame, you don't know who is behind that

:51:59.:52:02.

screen. You can set-up tomorrow and say you are a photographer, come to

:52:03.:52:07.

my place, do a shoot, take pictures and look professional. So how would

:52:08.:52:11.

you check that out? I do my research, constant research and if I

:52:12.:52:14.

had any doubt I would go with my model. Even if it meant flying ot of

:52:15.:52:18.

the country, I would go with them. You would accompany them? Or send

:52:19.:52:26.

somebody to chaperone them. Thank you, Carla.

:52:27.:52:33.

Carla is a close friend of Chloe Ayling. Talking about what she says

:52:34.:52:36.

Chloe Ayling experienced. Next, a shoplifter in Toronto

:52:37.:52:40.

who was caught stealing an outfit for a job interview was given

:52:41.:52:43.

a second chance by the police Constable Niran Jeyanesan was sent

:52:44.:52:46.

to Walmart to apprehend the 18-year-old for attempting

:52:47.:52:49.

to steal a shirt, tie and socks. When he arrived, he realised

:52:50.:52:52.

the offender had been stealing So he released him and

:52:53.:52:54.

bought him the clothes. We received a call for theft under

:52:55.:53:07.

where an individual was placed under arrest by a Wal-Mart loss prevention

:53:08.:53:13.

officer. My partner and I responded and we got to meet the individual

:53:14.:53:21.

who was under arrest. He had stolen some items from Wal-Mart. After

:53:22.:53:25.

having a conversation with him, it came to light that he had stolen it,

:53:26.:53:31.

he has taken the items because he had a job interview. The items that

:53:32.:53:37.

he had taken were a dress shirt and a tie and he had a job interview on

:53:38.:53:42.

Tuesday with the service industry and this young person has been

:53:43.:53:48.

facing his own difficulty in life. He was looking to straighten all

:53:49.:53:52.

that by providing for his family and trying to get in a job and that came

:53:53.:53:59.

to light. When we proceeded with the arrest later on, I found out that

:54:00.:54:06.

this person was actually looking for that job interview and we, I went

:54:07.:54:11.

and got the shirt and the tie for this individual and after when he

:54:12.:54:15.

was released it was given back to him so he can attend that job

:54:16.:54:18.

interview. So you bought the shirt and tie for him and he had stolen it

:54:19.:54:22.

because he had no way of purchasing it on his own. He is a young guy. He

:54:23.:54:29.

is 18 years old. Why did you feel so compelled? That's correct. Not every

:54:30.:54:35.

day that people do things for wrong reasons. This individual didn't have

:54:36.:54:41.

any resources to go about how he went about it and he stole those

:54:42.:54:46.

items because he wanted a second chance in life and definitely not as

:54:47.:54:51.

a police officer we weren't going to stand between him and his second

:54:52.:54:54.

chance. He doesn't know you did this for him? No, not at that moment, no.

:54:55.:54:59.

Some people at home will say if he wanted a second chance, why was he

:55:00.:55:03.

stealing? What do you say to that? Having a conversation with him, he

:55:04.:55:08.

did not have any resources, anywhere to go, anywhere to go, to go about

:55:09.:55:14.

this. I think he really wanted to attend that interview and I don't

:55:15.:55:18.

think he knew how else to go about this. OK.

:55:19.:55:21.

Constable Niran Jeyanesan's boss has praised his actions saying

:55:22.:55:24.

arresting him wouldn't be in the interests of anyone

:55:25.:55:27.

and that it reiterates their goal of being positive role models

:55:28.:55:29.

Comments on Tasering under-18s. There are calls that the police in

:55:30.:55:42.

this country shouldn't be able to Taser under-18s. This texter, "I

:55:43.:55:46.

volunteered to be tasered at a show in the USA. It immediately

:55:47.:55:51.

incapacitated me, but did it hurt? No. Would I do it again? Absolutely

:55:52.:55:56.

yes. It is an excellent tactical weapon." Colin says, "We can't chase

:55:57.:56:01.

kids on mopeds or search them for knives. Why not ban the Taser and

:56:02.:56:05.

further extend their freedom to be lawless." Daniel, "What will police

:56:06.:56:10.

do regarding using Tasers on under-18s? Before I used this Taser

:56:11.:56:16.

on you, how old are you?" Another viewer says, "The same kids that

:56:17.:56:23.

commit murders and robberies." PG, "How about under-18s not doing

:56:24.:56:29.

anything to warrant Taser?" Kevin says, "Some 14-year-olds don't look

:56:30.:56:33.

14. How do police know how old they are?" A viewer says, "Public

:56:34.:56:39.

confidence will be lost if Tasers are misused and their use isn't

:56:40.:56:43.

properly scrutinised. We need video evidence. No second firing and no

:56:44.:56:49.

use on under-18s." The news and sport son the way.

:56:50.:56:52.

Before that, here is the weather from Simon.

:56:53.:56:56.

Don't you just love the British Summer Time.

:56:57.:57:03.

There is some sunshine out there to be found. In South Wales, some sunny

:57:04.:57:09.

spells here. Also a bit of sunshine towards Scotland and Northern

:57:10.:57:12.

Ireland. You can see here, but the rainfall is quite heavy at the

:57:13.:57:16.

moment across the Midlands particularly so towards Lincolnshire

:57:17.:57:21.

where in Lincolnshire itself it's wellies that are the order of the

:57:22.:57:25.

day. The rainfall will last for much of the day as well. It is associated

:57:26.:57:29.

with this weather front here, bringing that area of rain and some

:57:30.:57:32.

heavy and thundery showers developing across East Anglia and

:57:33.:57:36.

the South East of England. Further north and west, looking dry and

:57:37.:57:41.

bright. But for this afternoon, heavy and thundery showers expected

:57:42.:57:43.

in parts of south-west England through parts of Wales as well.

:57:44.:57:49.

Particularly so fort south-east of England. Feeling cool here as well.

:57:50.:57:53.

Temperatures only 13 Celsius in Hull. For north-west England and the

:57:54.:57:58.

far north of north-east England, something drier and one or two

:57:59.:58:01.

showers, but sunny spells. Sunny spells and scattered showers

:58:02.:58:04.

expected for both Scotland and Northern Ireland where temperatures

:58:05.:58:07.

will be about 15 Celsius or 16 Celsius. Through this evening, those

:58:08.:58:11.

heavy showers will continue giving a lot of rainfall in a short space of

:58:12.:58:15.

time. A bit of localised flooding and the rain will continue into the

:58:16.:58:19.

night as well. Large rainfall totals building up across parts of

:58:20.:58:21.

Lincolnshire and the Midlands. Further north of Scotland and

:58:22.:58:24.

Northern Ireland, clear skies here. It could get chilly into the first

:58:25.:58:28.

part of Wednesday morning. But during Wednesday, we have got this

:58:29.:58:30.

weather front which is still with us. But look behind me, this area of

:58:31.:58:35.

high pressure is starting to move in. It's a ridge. It's going to

:58:36.:58:39.

improve things for Scotland and for Northern Ireland, northern parts of

:58:40.:58:42.

England and Wales. Some dry, bright weather for much of Wednesday, but

:58:43.:58:47.

it stays very wet in the South East corner except perhaps around Kent

:58:48.:58:51.

and east Sussexment here we could see a few heavy and thundery

:58:52.:58:54.

showers, but still wet in the South East corner. Maximum temperatures

:58:55.:58:59.

17, 18 Celsius. For Thursday, still starting off with a bit of rain in

:59:00.:59:03.

the South East, but otherwise, that high pressure, that ridge of high

:59:04.:59:07.

pressure is with us. So things looking more settled and plenty of

:59:08.:59:10.

fine and dry weather across the bulk of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

:59:11.:59:13.

There is that ridge of high pressure. You can see it is now

:59:14.:59:16.

starting to it is appear as we go into Friday. Another system of

:59:17.:59:19.

weather fronts moves in throughout the day of the that's going to bring

:59:20.:59:23.

more rain as we go throughout the day. Showeriout breaks of rain

:59:24.:59:27.

towards the south and the east, but there will be sunshine initially,

:59:28.:59:30.

but maximum temperatures about 16 to 20 Celsius. A bit more in the way of

:59:31.:59:34.

brighter skies and sunshine breaking through in the far north-west as the

:59:35.:59:37.

rain clears its way south-east wards. Bye-bye.

:59:38.:59:50.

Hello - it's Tuesday, it's 10 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

:59:51.:59:54.

The British women from South Asian backgrounds who hide their cancer

:59:55.:59:57.

or refuse to seek treatment because of stigma.

:59:58.:59:59.

This reminds me of a woman who came to see us

:00:00.:00:01.

with a fungal thing, you know, rotten breast,

:00:02.:00:03.

and it was smelling so much that you couldn't even sit next to it.

:00:04.:00:07.

I don't know how long she was hiding that.

:00:08.:00:09.

Experts tell us that some women not seeking treatment early enough

:00:10.:00:12.

We'll be speaking to them and to one woman who kept her cancer secret.

:00:13.:00:17.

The parents of two teenage charity volunteers who died

:00:18.:00:20.

after being swept out to sea tell this programme they're taking legal

:00:21.:00:24.

action against the charity which organised the placements.

:00:25.:00:33.

A 19-year-old and 21-year-old died when they were overpowered by fierce

:00:34.:00:37.

currents off a beach in South Africa.

:00:38.:00:44.

A serious sickness bug strikes one of the team hotels at the Athletics

:00:45.:00:47.

Those affected include members of the German athletics team and the

:00:48.:00:56.

Botswana athlete had to pull out of the 200 metre heat here last night.

:00:57.:00:59.

With just one gold to their name, can the British team improve on

:01:00.:01:02.

their medal tally? Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

:01:03.:01:13.

with a summary of todays news. The lawyer for a British model

:01:14.:01:16.

who was allegedly held captive by a gang in Italy has been giving

:01:17.:01:19.

more details about the case. Francesco Peschi says Chloe Ayling,

:01:20.:01:22.

who's 20 and from South London, was told by her kidnappers

:01:23.:01:25.

that she would be sold as a sex He said she was acting under duress

:01:26.:01:28.

when she was seen shopping with her captor before

:01:29.:01:32.

she was freed. She was told that people

:01:33.:01:34.

were there watching her and ready to kill her if she tried anything,

:01:35.:01:38.

so she thought that the best idea was to go along with it and to be

:01:39.:01:44.

nice in a way to her captor because he told her that he

:01:45.:01:49.

wanted to release her. This programme has learned that

:01:50.:01:52.

a number of UK women from South Asian backgrounds

:01:53.:01:55.

who have cancer, hide it, because of a perceived

:01:56.:01:58.

stigma about the disease. Researchers say they're worried that

:01:59.:02:00.

cultural taboos are leading to more women dying prematurely

:02:01.:02:03.

in the South Asian community. We've discovered that some

:02:04.:02:06.

hide their diagnosis from family and friends out of shame and in one

:02:07.:02:08.

case a woman only sought treatment More than 40 maternity units

:02:09.:02:12.

in England closed to new admissions at some point last year according

:02:13.:02:17.

to data obtained by Labour. 42 out of 96 Trusts said they'd shut

:02:18.:02:19.

wards temporarily on 382 occasions. Labour's blamed staffing shortages

:02:20.:02:24.

but the Government says that is misleading and closures

:02:25.:02:28.

are well rehearsed. Police in West London are asking

:02:29.:02:31.

for help to identify a jogger who appeared to push a pedestrian

:02:32.:02:51.

into the path of a bus, dramatic CCTV showing the incident

:02:52.:02:54.

which happened in May. It shows the man running along

:02:55.:02:56.

Putney Bridge and appearing to push The bus is forced to swerve into

:02:57.:02:59.

the next lane to aLloyd hitting her. The bus stopped and passengers

:03:00.:03:04.

tended to the woman An appeal has been launched

:03:05.:03:06.

for witnesses or anyone who recognises the jogger,

:03:07.:03:09.

described as white, early to mid 30s with brown eyes

:03:10.:03:11.

and short brown hair. Anyone with information is asked

:03:12.:03:13.

to call police or Crimestoppers. Another victim of the 11th

:03:14.:03:22.

September 2001 attack on the World Trade Center

:03:23.:03:25.

in New York City has been identified The name of the man

:03:26.:03:28.

is being withheld at The last time a victim

:03:29.:03:32.

was identified was March 2015. Only 60% of the victims

:03:33.:03:36.

of the attack have Exam results in Scotland have been

:03:37.:03:39.

published this morning. The proportion of A-to-Cs

:03:40.:03:49.

passes fell slightly from 77.2% to 77% this year,

:03:50.:03:54.

almost 137,000 candidates receiving their results

:03:55.:04:00.

through the post today, but more than a third signed up to

:04:01.:04:02.

get their results by text or e-mail. A man has died after attempting to

:04:03.:04:13.

swim the English Channel. A coastguard received the call last

:04:14.:04:16.

night from a support vessel saying the 40-year-old swimmer was in

:04:17.:04:19.

difficulty. The search and rescue helicopter arrived at the scene

:04:20.:04:22.

within ten minutes and airlifted the man to hospital but he later died.

:04:23.:04:26.

He had been roughly half way through the crossing attempt when, according

:04:27.:04:30.

to Kent Police, he became unwell. That is a summary of the news, more

:04:31.:04:35.

at 10. 30. An e-mail from a former police officer on the use of Tasers.

:04:36.:04:40.

I was a police officer for 30 years and was assaulted many times when on

:04:41.:04:44.

duty by those drunk, high on drugs or who just didn't want to be

:04:45.:04:48.

arrested. One of the worst assaulted I suffered was from the hands of a

:04:49.:04:52.

young teenager who didn't want to comply with a reasonable request

:04:53.:04:55.

while in custody. I couldn't believe the sheer level of violence directed

:04:56.:04:59.

at me by someone of a young age, how I wish I had been in possession of a

:05:00.:05:04.

Taser. It could have saved many visits to my GP and an extended

:05:05.:05:07.

period of sick leave. Do get in touch with us

:05:08.:05:10.

throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria live

:05:11.:05:12.

and If you text, you will be charged Do get in touch with us

:05:13.:05:16.

throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria live

:05:17.:05:19.

and If you text, you will be charged Here's some sport now with Jess Jess

:05:20.:05:22.

- it seems a serious stomach bug has affected several of the athletes

:05:23.:05:27.

there in London - what's the latest We have had the latest in from

:05:28.:05:34.

public health England who say 30 people associated with the world

:05:35.:05:37.

athletics hundredships including athletes and support staff have been

:05:38.:05:42.

affected. Environmental Health have carried out an inspection by say

:05:43.:05:44.

there is no evidence to suggest that the hotel is the source of this

:05:45.:05:49.

stomach bug. This all emerged last night when the Botswana athlete

:05:50.:05:55.

Isaac Makwala pulled out of the 200 metre heat here. It late eemerged it

:05:56.:06:00.

was due to this stomach bug. Now this has been a massive talking

:06:01.:06:04.

point here this morning as the details have come in. Athletes from

:06:05.:06:13.

at least four nations have been affected. The former javelin star

:06:14.:06:24.

Steve Backley spoke to us about this. I'm sure they'll get to the

:06:25.:06:28.

bottom of this and understand what has caused it. But it's a bit of a

:06:29.:06:31.

concern for the organising committee for London. It's not great, it's not

:06:32.:06:37.

what we would have wanted and hopefully it's squashed quite

:06:38.:06:41.

quickly. We'll talk to public health England before 11 this morning. Is

:06:42.:06:45.

there a sense of disappointment amongst British fans because of the

:06:46.:06:49.

lack of medals, one medal and the sort of near misses from British

:06:50.:06:57.

athletes? Yes. This is not where the British team would have wanted to be

:06:58.:07:00.

as we reach the half way point on day five. Many missed opportunities.

:07:01.:07:08.

Katrina Johnson-Thompson we hoped might have won a heptathlon and that

:07:09.:07:15.

wasn't meant to be. And Laura Muir in the women's 1500 metre final, she

:07:16.:07:19.

just missed out on that bronze and then heartbreak as well for Sophie

:07:20.:07:25.

Hitchon in the hammer final, she fought back tears when she realised

:07:26.:07:28.

she could only finish in seventh position. The British team will

:07:29.:07:33.

certainly be hoping for a much more successful time of it tonight.

:07:34.:07:36.

There's only one Brit going in a final. That's Kyle Langford in the

:07:37.:07:43.

men's 800 metres. Coverage gets under way on BBC Two with Gabby and

:07:44.:07:48.

the team from 6. 30 tonight, Victoria. Thank you very much.

:07:49.:07:53.

Experts are warning that some British South Asian women

:07:54.:07:57.

are reporting cancer later than other British ethnic groups

:07:58.:07:59.

Researchers have told this programme they're worried cultural stigmas

:08:00.:08:05.

and taboos are leading to more women dying prematurely in

:08:06.:08:07.

We've learned that some women even hide their diagnosis from family

:08:08.:08:11.

Our reporter Amber Haque bought you the full story an hour ago -

:08:12.:08:17.

Praveena stumbled upon a lump in her breast when she was 36.

:08:18.:08:31.

She grew up in a strict Indian community where even talking about

:08:32.:08:37.

this disease was deemed shameful. When she was diagnosed,

:08:38.:08:41.

she decided to hide it. So a lot of it, in terms

:08:42.:08:44.

of not telling my family, I didn't tell them because I just

:08:45.:08:47.

thought if people hear the fact that I've got cancer

:08:48.:08:50.

they're going to think it's Pooja is lead researcher

:08:51.:08:52.

from a team called CLAHRC, who are funded by a research arm

:08:53.:08:55.

of the NHS and they work with public and professionals

:08:56.:08:58.

on health inequalities. She's spent the past few years

:08:59.:09:01.

looking at attitudes towards cancer She is worried by some of the things

:09:02.:09:04.

she's heard. When it came to South Asian women,

:09:05.:09:15.

there were some specific issues that actually were raised

:09:16.:09:18.

within this work. For example, there was more

:09:19.:09:20.

of an issue around shame, Also about the influence

:09:21.:09:23.

from the males in the family and elders in the family,

:09:24.:09:26.

and if they didn't think that women should be going for screening,

:09:27.:09:29.

they wouldn't go for screening. What are some of the more shocking

:09:30.:09:31.

misconceptions you've They would hide the shame,

:09:32.:09:34.

in their eyes, of having a cancer diagnosis, because they felt it

:09:35.:09:40.

would influence their The reluctance to go

:09:41.:09:42.

for a smear is that you don't From the husband, it is

:09:43.:09:47.

deemed to be, like you're When it came to going for smears,

:09:48.:09:51.

it was about women losing their virginities by having

:09:52.:09:58.

the smear test, and then again not It's hard to say just how

:09:59.:10:01.

serious the problem is, because very little information has

:10:02.:10:06.

been collected on ethnicity Research we do have has shown Asian

:10:07.:10:11.

women with breast cancer have poorer survival,

:10:12.:10:17.

and they're more likely to present with advanced tumours

:10:18.:10:22.

when they do get diagnosed. Experts tell us they're concerned

:10:23.:10:34.

the cultural stigmas are leading to more South Asian women dying.

:10:35.:10:36.

I worked in the cancer field for many years.

:10:37.:10:53.

Unfortunately, women who do not examine their breasts, they're

:10:54.:10:56.

presenting late. And this reminds me

:10:57.:11:00.

of a woman who came to see us with a fungal thing,

:11:01.:11:03.

you know, rotten breast, and it was smelling so much that

:11:04.:11:04.

you couldn't even sit next to it. I don't know how long

:11:05.:11:08.

she was hiding that. She was a young lady

:11:09.:11:11.

with young children, you know, but because she couldn't share

:11:12.:11:31.

that with anyone. And how often do you hear that women

:11:32.:11:32.

feel like they can't share it Let's talk now with Madhu Agarwal,

:11:33.:11:36.

NHS cancer support manager and chair of Cancer Equality,

:11:37.:11:43.

Iyna Butt who kept her breast cancer diagnosis hidden from some

:11:44.:11:46.

of her family and Sadia Habib Welcome all of you. Inya, you were

:11:47.:12:02.

diagnosed in 2015 aged 30 and they found a lump as big as a golf ball.

:12:03.:12:11.

What did you say to your family? I think the first thought that came to

:12:12.:12:15.

my mind when the oncololgist said you have cancer was how do I tell my

:12:16.:12:23.

parents. My husband was with me. I never thought about anything else

:12:24.:12:29.

other than, why couldn't I tell my parents. What was in your mind then?

:12:30.:12:35.

I think because I had my own child and the thought of telling my

:12:36.:12:40.

parents that their child has got cancer and when you hear the word

:12:41.:12:44.

cancer, you imagine death. There's nothing else that you think of. To

:12:45.:12:48.

have to think of the worst scenario, to have to tell my parents was

:12:49.:12:51.

horrible. I didn't want to do it. No. But there might be a number of

:12:52.:12:57.

people who could relate to that, you don't want to tell your parents

:12:58.:13:03.

because you don't want to mention dying, but what about the South

:13:04.:13:07.

Asian community? They don't talk about it, it's not the norm to talk

:13:08.:13:11.

about cancer, especially when I was told I had breast cancer, to say the

:13:12.:13:15.

word breast isn't normal in the Asian community. You can't even say

:13:16.:13:20.

the word, let alone checking your breasts? Far from it. Why? I think a

:13:21.:13:25.

woman's part within an Asian community, her role is so heavy,

:13:26.:13:30.

you're a mother, a daughter, a daughter-in-law, a wife. You're

:13:31.:13:34.

there to protect everybody, so when you get told you've got cancer, you

:13:35.:13:40.

are in that weak position where you can't afford to be in. You need to

:13:41.:13:44.

lift up the family and support them, not the other way around. I think

:13:45.:13:47.

there is a lot of burden Asian women carry within the community. What

:13:48.:13:51.

kind of things did family members say to you when you told them? Oh,

:13:52.:13:57.

God, I heard all sorts. Some I heard during my treatment, some I heard

:13:58.:14:03.

after that my family told me, things they'd heard from people, things

:14:04.:14:07.

like wear a black bra and it will make the cancer going away. I heard

:14:08.:14:10.

things like, you must have done something wrong in your life and you

:14:11.:14:15.

have been opinion Nished by God, pray more, do more by religion and

:14:16.:14:19.

it's a punishment. I heard things like, don't have the treatment done,

:14:20.:14:24.

just pray and you will be fine, you don't need to go ahead -- you're

:14:25.:14:40.

being punished by God. Madhu we heard you talk about a patient who

:14:41.:14:45.

let her breast rotten before she sought treatment. That is

:14:46.:14:50.

unbelievably distressing and very sad? It's a horrifying experience.

:14:51.:14:54.

She would have been alive if she'd gone to the GP at the right time.

:14:55.:15:00.

The problem is, we, when we talk about breast awareness, we only

:15:01.:15:03.

think about a lump in the body. That's not true. There are other

:15:04.:15:06.

symptoms you need to look out for too. That is what is important. A

:15:07.:15:15.

lump is one of them, the other is, you take the screening, the

:15:16.:15:19.

mammogram and that shows up the abnormalities. What would stop a

:15:20.:15:23.

British Asian woman going for a mammogram?

:15:24.:15:30.

Raez Another family member might have opened the letter. How are they

:15:31.:15:35.

going to tell the family that this is where they are going? It could be

:15:36.:15:41.

job related. They might not be in a permanent job. There are multiple

:15:42.:15:45.

issues. You cannot say this is the prime reason. What's the job got to

:15:46.:15:51.

do with going for a mammogram? They can't lose the money. They are not

:15:52.:16:00.

able to work. OK. What is the message that you need to get out to

:16:01.:16:04.

people because of the barriers that are erected for some women in the

:16:05.:16:10.

South Asian community in Britain? We need to encourage women to

:16:11.:16:14.

particularly go for their screenings as well. So their breast or cervical

:16:15.:16:19.

or smear test as they're known and we need to be working on the ground

:16:20.:16:28.

at grass root level to dispel some of the myths and beliefsment I can

:16:29.:16:32.

say that I have come across anecdotal evidence that reflects

:16:33.:16:38.

what your guests are saying. There is a lot of stigma attached to

:16:39.:16:42.

cancer. The cancer word isn't mentioned. In some cases I heard

:16:43.:16:45.

that the community thinks it is contagious or that you can catch it

:16:46.:16:51.

and also you know that you may have sinned in your life which is the

:16:52.:16:56.

reason why you're being punished. And the multiple roles that South

:16:57.:17:00.

Asian women plays within our home. She is the backbone of our family.

:17:01.:17:04.

For that reason, sometimes it is the fear factor. What if it is cancer,

:17:05.:17:09.

if I have a symptom or I go for my smear test, what if they find

:17:10.:17:18.

abnormalities. If you don't seek help or don't check your breasts

:17:19.:17:21.

then you may end up dying so you will be no use to your family after

:17:22.:17:26.

all anyway? That's what we are trying to reinforce. Early detection

:17:27.:17:30.

and prevention is important in cancer. This common belief within

:17:31.:17:34.

the South Asian communities that cancer means death, you know f

:17:35.:17:39.

somebody is not going for their cervical screening and potentially

:17:40.:17:42.

if there are abnormal cells they can go on to develop cervical cancer.

:17:43.:17:48.

That would be in most cases diagnosed at a late stage if they

:17:49.:17:53.

have not been going for their smears which means a poor prognosis, a poor

:17:54.:17:57.

outcome leading to losing their lives and it almost becomes a self

:17:58.:18:03.

fulfilling prophecy within the community when somebody passes away

:18:04.:18:09.

from cancer that cancer means death. It becomes a vicious circle where

:18:10.:18:13.

fear becomes more widespread and a denial of talking about cancer. It's

:18:14.:18:17.

quite rife within the South Asian communities.

:18:18.:18:21.

Cancer does mean death for some of us. But half of us will survive.

:18:22.:18:27.

Those are the facts. Scottie on Facebook says for example, "This is

:18:28.:18:31.

ignorance rather than citying marred." I would probably say that,

:18:32.:18:38.

I mean, we do have cases where women are in denial as well. We know that

:18:39.:18:43.

they are probably well educated and they do know about the importance of

:18:44.:18:46.

going for their screenings and what it can mean if they don't, but it's

:18:47.:18:52.

about trying to tackle the fear that's inside them and it's a

:18:53.:18:56.

multiple number of reasons as well. We have women for example who are

:18:57.:19:01.

very well educated on HPV and its link to cervical cancer. I have come

:19:02.:19:04.

across a lady who knows everything about it. Is a fray frayed to go for

:19:05.:19:10.

a smear and one of the reasons, the main reason for her in the past she

:19:11.:19:15.

was sexually abused and as a result, that acted as a barrier for her to

:19:16.:19:18.

come forward because it's hardly talked about even within the South

:19:19.:19:22.

Asian community, she had not talked about it to anybody at all. So, it's

:19:23.:19:26.

about trying to tackle some of those fears that exists out there for a

:19:27.:19:31.

until of reasons. Briefly, finally, how are you now? I'm very well. I

:19:32.:19:38.

have injections on a monthly basis which is quite difficult, but I'm on

:19:39.:19:42.

the mend. Good. That's really good to hear. Thank you. Thank you all of

:19:43.:19:48.

you very much. Thank you. You can read more about that story

:19:49.:19:50.

on the BBC News site. He was hailed a hero after stopping

:19:51.:19:53.

a worldwide cyber attack that affected the NHS,

:19:54.:19:56.

but now Marcus Hutchins has been charged for creating

:19:57.:19:59.

a separate cyber attack. We'll speak to an expert

:20:00.:20:00.

who has worked with Mr The 17-year old girl whose case

:20:01.:20:03.

prompted a senior judge to say the state would have "blood

:20:04.:20:10.

on its hands" if suitable mental health provision was not found,

:20:11.:20:12.

will be moved to a psychiatric She had been scheduled to be sent

:20:13.:20:15.

back into a community setting because of a shortage of beds,

:20:16.:20:20.

but she has made several Simon Rowbotham has been

:20:21.:20:22.

appointed by the court So you are independent looking at

:20:23.:20:37.

the best interests for girl X. Thank you very much for talking to us. How

:20:38.:20:44.

did this case end up in the courts? Well, the history of the case is

:20:45.:20:48.

quite long. It started off as a child protection matter. There was a

:20:49.:20:54.

big hearing last year when X had to be placed in Scotland because there

:20:55.:20:58.

were no secure beds available in England or Wales. Then it has come

:20:59.:21:02.

back to court twice this year because she now needs a clinical

:21:03.:21:05.

setting and there wasn't a bed for her. So it's quite a complicated

:21:06.:21:10.

case and it's a long case and it's a pretty sad one as well. She has been

:21:11.:21:14.

in this secure unit, I wonder if you can describe that for our audience?

:21:15.:21:19.

So just to be clear, she was in a secure unit. She is now in a secure

:21:20.:21:25.

unit that is actually part of a criminal sentence that she is under

:21:26.:21:28.

detention and training order. At the moment, and she tends to be quite

:21:29.:21:35.

isolated. I would urge people to always read judgments, but

:21:36.:21:38.

particularly the June judgment because at the end the judge took

:21:39.:21:42.

the time to set out in a lot of detail what the arrangements are at

:21:43.:21:46.

the moment, but it is a bedroom with a mattress that's been stripped

:21:47.:21:49.

away. She doesn't have any personal items. There is no carpets and that

:21:50.:21:54.

is all because at the moment any items that she has, she tries to

:21:55.:21:59.

harm herself or kill herself with. OK. And what are her needs? We don't

:22:00.:22:08.

know. At the moment, at the moment the needs that we're trying to

:22:09.:22:12.

address are the day-to-day needs of stopping her harming herself and

:22:13.:22:15.

that involves all the measures that I've just discussed, it involves

:22:16.:22:19.

restraint. The reason she needs the clinical setting is so that we can

:22:20.:22:22.

find out what she needs. We don't know why she is trying to harm

:22:23.:22:26.

herself. We don't know why she has expressed a wish to kill herself. We

:22:27.:22:30.

need to get it into the clinical setting to start those assessments

:22:31.:22:33.

and once those assessments are completed hopefully we will have a

:22:34.:22:37.

better idea of what X's needs are and what treatment she needs moving

:22:38.:22:42.

forward. Right. And I wonder if the judge hadn't spoken out and spoken

:22:43.:22:46.

out in these terms, you know, State could have blood on its hands, would

:22:47.:22:53.

Girl X have remained in a non clinical setting? Well, it's

:22:54.:23:00.

difficult to say. Certainly, it has helped. We don't know is the

:23:01.:23:05.

reality, but I know that the judge in his judgment yesterday expressed

:23:06.:23:09.

some pessimism that we have A, got the result as quickly as we got, or

:23:10.:23:14.

B, got it to the full extent that we've got. It's a sorry state of

:23:15.:23:18.

affairs that we asked and asked and that clinicians on the ground were

:23:19.:23:23.

clear as to what X needed and it has taken this to get it. The evidence

:23:24.:23:27.

at the moment would have suggested that had it not had the public

:23:28.:23:31.

interest that it has had and had the judge A, not been the most important

:23:32.:23:35.

family judge in the country and B, had such a widely published

:23:36.:23:39.

judgment, had none of that happened, we don't know where we would have

:23:40.:23:43.

been. But the reality is on 14th August, next Monday, she has to

:23:44.:23:47.

leave the placement and time is running tight and I mean this is

:23:48.:23:50.

right up to the wire and it didn't need to be. The fear was that she

:23:51.:23:54.

might attempt to take her life again? That's right. If she doesn't

:23:55.:24:03.

have the right care around her and that care is stopping her taking her

:24:04.:24:06.

life. If she didn't have that care, there is a very high risk that she

:24:07.:24:09.

would have done and the only reason she won't z wouldn't have that care

:24:10.:24:12.

is because the resources aren't there. It is from that prospective,

:24:13.:24:16.

it is my understanding, that it is why the judge made the comments they

:24:17.:24:21.

did, we as society, everybody must take responsibility for what we are

:24:22.:24:24.

willing to fund and what we are not willing to fund and if she killed

:24:25.:24:27.

herself it would have been because of lack of resources and we would

:24:28.:24:31.

have had blood on our hands to use the judge's words.

:24:32.:24:43.

This morning, in an exclusive interview, the parents of two young

:24:44.:24:46.

charity volunteers who died after being swept out to sea tell

:24:47.:24:48.

this programme they're taking legal action against the charity

:24:49.:24:50.

19-year-old Alice Barnett and 21-year-old Summer Robertson

:24:51.:24:53.

died when they were overpowered by fierce currents off

:24:54.:24:55.

They were enjoying the last few days of a ten week charity placement

:24:56.:25:00.

working with deprived young people in a South African township.

:25:01.:25:06.

This morning both families have agreed to talk to you in their first

:25:07.:25:10.

television interview together about what happened

:25:11.:25:11.

to their daughters and why they've come to this decision.

:25:12.:25:20.

Let's talk to Alice's mum Suzie Barnett and her dad

:25:21.:25:22.

Pete Gallagher and Summer's mum and dad Sarah and John Robertson.

:25:23.:25:30.

Thank you very much for coming on our programme. I wonder if I could

:25:31.:25:37.

ask you first of all to talk to our audience about your daughters. I

:25:38.:25:43.

don't mind who goes first. Summer was a typical 21-year-old daughter.

:25:44.:25:49.

She had heard an advert for this charity expedition to South Africa.

:25:50.:25:51.

She had never done anything like that before and decided that it was

:25:52.:25:56.

something she'd like to do. She took ten weeks unpaid leave from her job

:25:57.:25:59.

to go and do this and it is not something you could just turn up and

:26:00.:26:03.

do, they had to raise X amount of pounds themselves to show their

:26:04.:26:06.

commitment that they wanted to go and do it and this was her first

:26:07.:26:11.

one. How would you describe her? Summer was a bundle of fun. She was

:26:12.:26:19.

full of laughter and it is her laughter that we miss most. She was

:26:20.:26:24.

the heartbeat of our family and it made a humongous dent. How would you

:26:25.:26:32.

describe Alice? A force to be reckoned with. Six foot tall. Bright

:26:33.:26:44.

red hair. Incredibly thoughtful. Well-informed and opinionated and

:26:45.:26:50.

really an amazing sense of what was right and what was wrong and if she

:26:51.:26:53.

thought something was wrong, she would do something about it, but not

:26:54.:27:00.

sort of go in blindly. If you questioned her on anything, she

:27:01.:27:07.

always had an answer and so, she felt very strongly about Animal

:27:08.:27:14.

Rights campaigns, Human Rights, you know, she had a deeply profound

:27:15.:27:25.

sense of love and compassion for everything from a butterfly to an

:27:26.:27:31.

elephant to a person, you know, to her, these were all lives, precious.

:27:32.:27:38.

Real strong sense of how sacred and precious life is. Was that Port of

:27:39.:27:43.

Her motivation for this volunteering? Yes, absolutely. Every

:27:44.:27:51.

single word is spot on. She was the finest example of a human being I've

:27:52.:27:55.

ever met in my life. I was so proud that she was our daughter. She

:27:56.:27:59.

wanted to help. Wherever she went, she wanted to help. She would be

:28:00.:28:04.

quite happy to admit that she hadn't decided what she wanted to do with

:28:05.:28:06.

the rest of her life, but she was able to sit down and say, "If I can

:28:07.:28:10.

do something now that changes anything from a community to the

:28:11.:28:16.

world, why wouldn't I do that? I've got 80, 90 years to decide what to

:28:17.:28:21.

do with the rest of my life." We backed her all the way. She did a

:28:22.:28:24.

placement in Cambodia the year before and helped a school out

:28:25.:28:27.

there, who are still feeling the benefits of that and the following

:28:28.:28:33.

year decided to go to South Africa. Again with Summer, this was

:28:34.:28:36.

something she worked hard for herself. You know there, was a

:28:37.:28:43.

project that she found that financially was something she could

:28:44.:28:47.

achieve by herself. Work hard. Raise money. Raise wareness for the

:28:48.:28:52.

project they were going out to support and she felt very strongly

:28:53.:28:58.

about these sort of gap year programmes that cost a fortune and

:28:59.:29:03.

really are glorified holidays and then you do a few days of something,

:29:04.:29:08.

you know, building a wall that possibly will fall down the

:29:09.:29:11.

following week. That wasn't the route she wanted to take. She saw

:29:12.:29:15.

through all that and she thought this genuinely is a well

:29:16.:29:19.

established, well supported project that absolutely know what they're

:29:20.:29:23.

doing and that was why she was drawn to this project in particular.

:29:24.:29:29.

Sarah, on, when did you discover that they had been in the sea on the

:29:30.:29:36.

evening of 4th December 2014 and that they had been... When we had

:29:37.:29:42.

the knock on the door at 11.30 by two police officers. Going into that

:29:43.:29:47.

sea wasn't even on their list of itinerary that they were supposed to

:29:48.:29:50.

be doing. It was a last minute switch by that company. We still

:29:51.:29:54.

don't know why. We didn't know they were at the coast until we had the

:29:55.:29:57.

knock on the door. Summer was missed. They came at 11.30, Summer

:29:58.:30:03.

was missing at sea. Why is she missing at sea? Was she on a boat

:30:04.:30:08.

trip? Within 15 minutes. Summer had been found. Summer was discovered on

:30:09.:30:13.

the beach and then all hell broke loose. Just total confusion. And

:30:14.:30:19.

what we know is that five people waded into the sea that evening. An

:30:20.:30:24.

area of ocean where there was a rip current and the coroner found that

:30:25.:30:37.

although the charity, Lattitude had done a safety check, they were

:30:38.:30:40.

unaware of the risk it could pose and that's really important, I

:30:41.:30:47.

think, for you to get across to people that this can take you?

:30:48.:30:57.

It's really important, the project the girls were working on was in a

:30:58.:31:03.

township in South Africa by the sea. For ten weeks they were in a

:31:04.:31:08.

township, then they were taken by the charity to this remote beach

:31:09.:31:14.

location in South Africa. For a debrief wasn't it? Yes, at the end

:31:15.:31:20.

of their placement. So it wasn't, you can go off and do whatever you

:31:21.:31:25.

want, this was, for some reason, changed from somewhere that they had

:31:26.:31:30.

been for their orienteering programme right at the beginning of

:31:31.:31:34.

the project. It was then changed to this remote beach location where

:31:35.:31:38.

there was literally the hostel and the beach. That was it. There was a

:31:39.:31:46.

generic risk assessment for South Africa and within it were contained

:31:47.:31:52.

certain guidelines. However, moving to a new location, there wasn't a

:31:53.:31:57.

new risk assessment done. There was no re-enforcement even of the

:31:58.:32:01.

guidelines, the basic guidelines that were in the initial risk

:32:02.:32:06.

assessment about beach safety bearing in mind you are taking these

:32:07.:32:13.

young people now to the beach for four days, and the promises they

:32:14.:32:18.

made about these risk assessments being safe, taking local advice,

:32:19.:32:21.

having people on the ground who knew the area and the location, they were

:32:22.:32:28.

specialists in this field, either they weren't specialists, as they

:32:29.:32:35.

claimed or there was a breakdown in communication because this vital

:32:36.:32:38.

information was not passed on to the volunteers.

:32:39.:32:41.

In fact, to be quite precise, what they said was, we'll always do all

:32:42.:32:45.

the research necessary, including talking to the local communities.

:32:46.:32:50.

When anyone else has asked the local members of the community in this

:32:51.:32:53.

area would you go near the sea, the response is, they laugh at you.

:32:54.:32:57.

Because they are absolutely aware of the current. No-one would go

:32:58.:32:59.

anywhere near it. The Department for International

:33:00.:33:05.

Development told us, The guidelines have changed now as a

:33:06.:33:22.

result of what happened to your daughters, and people have to wear

:33:23.:33:27.

life jackets. The rules were already in place, that you didn't use

:33:28.:33:31.

unsupervised beaches, that's where they took them. Very specifically

:33:32.:33:38.

don't swim in unsupervised locations, in dawn and dusk and seek

:33:39.:33:44.

local advice was in the guidelines but it wasn't communicated to the

:33:45.:33:47.

volunteers. Also the country manager was the one who took them with him

:33:48.:33:54.

into the sea. The person who showed them... We don't know specifically

:33:55.:34:00.

he did that, he definitely Waded in to the sea, he was one of the five?

:34:01.:34:05.

He was the first one in. That's documented on the inquest. VSO chair

:34:06.:34:14.

of trustees, statement: The loss of the two young lives was a terrible

:34:15.:34:20.

tragedy and the grief suffered by their families must be unimaginable.

:34:21.:34:24.

We are committed to enshiring they have a full and accurate

:34:25.:34:27.

understanding of what happened in this terribly sad situation. The

:34:28.:34:32.

investigation's been investigated by the coroner. This is the subject of

:34:33.:34:37.

a legal claim so we are unable to comment further. Can I just correct

:34:38.:34:42.

you. That is from Latitude, I beg your pardon. And that's very

:34:43.:34:46.

important. That is why there is no further comment, I do apologise. Can

:34:47.:34:51.

you explain to our audience why you are taking legal action against the

:34:52.:34:57.

hairty? It's the only route we have got available to us to try to bring

:34:58.:35:01.

them to accept that they made mistakes. They've never apologised

:35:02.:35:05.

for anything. They've not even said sorry. They will not accept any

:35:06.:35:09.

responsibility. They still believe they've done absolutely nothing

:35:10.:35:13.

wrong. And we have tried every other way. This really is the last resort

:35:14.:35:19.

for us. We have spoken to the Health and Safety Executive, the Charity

:35:20.:35:23.

Commission, to our MPs, we have spoken to DFID and tried everything.

:35:24.:35:30.

We have tried to talk to them, to Latitude as well, quite early on

:35:31.:35:34.

when we started questioning things they were telling us about, you

:35:35.:35:39.

know, we were told it was a freak wave and Pete was contacted by

:35:40.:35:43.

somebody from Belgium on Twitter who'd read about it in the paper and

:35:44.:35:48.

said, you know, sent his condolences and said I'm sorry to have to tell

:35:49.:35:53.

you I don't think it was a freak wave, I think it was a rip current

:35:54.:35:57.

because he was caught in one with his brother four years previously

:35:58.:36:00.

and his brother died. That is when we started to question, hang on a

:36:01.:36:05.

minute, Latitude, we think it was a rip current, did you know about

:36:06.:36:10.

them. They said no, we had no idea, didn't know about this. The more we

:36:11.:36:14.

questioned and asked for evidence of this, that and the other, the more

:36:15.:36:19.

questions we had and we wanted to speak to the manager asking what

:36:20.:36:23.

went wrong, what happened. We weren't setting ourselves up against

:36:24.:36:26.

them, we wanted to work with them but the more we questioned them, the

:36:27.:36:30.

more they shut their doors to us. What do you hope this legal action

:36:31.:36:36.

will achieve? Well, I think it's very, very important to say that for

:36:37.:36:42.

two-and-a-half years, we've tried every single avenue possible to

:36:43.:36:45.

reach any form of resolution. We never wanted to take any legal

:36:46.:36:51.

action at all. The only reason we agreed to, I suppose ironically in

:36:52.:36:54.

some people's eyes, is because we were told there's not a chance of

:36:55.:36:58.

any financial compensation. As soon as we knew that, and we knew that we

:36:59.:37:03.

couldn't possibly be seen as people who're looking to gain something

:37:04.:37:06.

except for the good of the cause, we agreed to go ahead. We cannot win

:37:07.:37:12.

anything financially. So that has swayed our opinion. There's got to

:37:13.:37:17.

be a point where the company who still to this day won't communicate

:37:18.:37:21.

properly with us, who still to this day, Suzie and Sarah went in for a

:37:22.:37:25.

meeting with the board of directors who didn't know the facts, they

:37:26.:37:28.

didn't know the information of the case and I'm really sorry, my

:37:29.:37:33.

daughter died, I want you to know every single detail and when you

:37:34.:37:37.

meet the two mothers, I want you to be able to talk with some form of

:37:38.:37:42.

knowledge that allows them to know that you've done your work too. So

:37:43.:37:45.

to actually have to go through all of these stages and to come out at

:37:46.:37:49.

the other end with a company saying, we really don't think we did

:37:50.:37:53.

anything wrong, it was all in place, well, it wasn't. The coroner's

:37:54.:37:58.

report says it wasn't. The independent report says it wasn't.

:37:59.:38:02.

They are both public documents. I would urge people toe read those

:38:03.:38:06.

documents. We are not making any of this up, we are not exaggerating.

:38:07.:38:11.

The fact of the matter is, they have never, ever said sorry, they have

:38:12.:38:16.

never accepted any accountability whatsoever and if you can get by the

:38:17.:38:20.

paperwork in the first case, why can't you get by that paperwork in

:38:21.:38:26.

every other case? So, as was brought up earlier, which is a great for

:38:27.:38:30.

instance, we are come up time and time again against, well I'm ever so

:38:31.:38:34.

sorry, I know you have got a strong point but this happened in South

:38:35.:38:37.

Africa it's out of our jurisdiction, so what's the point of having health

:38:38.:38:42.

and safety rules and regulations, having a dirty great big government

:38:43.:38:46.

stamp on the front of your company's document, we are supported by the

:38:47.:38:49.

government and then none of those things mean anything because it's

:38:50.:38:52.

out of our jurisdiction. It's nothing to do with the South African

:38:53.:38:56.

government and, apparently it's nothing to do with our guys either.

:38:57.:39:02.

I think it's worth saying that six months or so after it happened, VSO,

:39:03.:39:09.

the parent company, they got a new CEO and that gentleman, from day

:39:10.:39:13.

one, has said, what on earth is going on here, we need to get these

:39:14.:39:16.

four people in and sort everything out with them and he's been

:39:17.:39:22.

absolutely brilliant. He's remoll Edded everything for us. Phillip

:39:23.:39:28.

GoodWynn says we are profoundly sorry that Alice and Summer died. We

:39:29.:39:32.

can't begin to imagine what the last three years have been like for the

:39:33.:39:35.

family and friends. We recognise that we could have worked with the

:39:36.:39:40.

parents more constructively in the months immediately following this

:39:41.:39:42.

accident. We have stayed in close touch with them and we'll always be

:39:43.:39:46.

available to them. Latitude is no longer a participant in the ICS

:39:47.:39:51.

programme, ICS being the international citizenship service

:39:52.:39:54.

programme. And again just to clarify that

:39:55.:39:59.

point, the reason that Latitude's contract was terminated with the

:40:00.:40:04.

VCO-ICS programme was as a direct result of what happened. Again, that

:40:05.:40:08.

is something that Latitude push back on. OK. Phillip GoodWynn changed his

:40:09.:40:15.

statement and added that in. It's a fact, it's not... So, you know...

:40:16.:40:22.

Latitude say they weren't fired. Latitude have said nothing has been

:40:23.:40:26.

their fault from day one, including not apologising for everything. I

:40:27.:40:31.

would just like to say that from day one, when the incident happened, I

:40:32.:40:38.

mean we were told we wanted to go out straightaway out there and they

:40:39.:40:41.

told us there was no point us travelling to South Africa because

:40:42.:40:44.

you will not be allowed to see your daughter. You will not see her. End

:40:45.:40:51.

of. We haven't. We have never seen them. By the time they came back to

:40:52.:40:56.

this country... You were told don't see them? We were told don't see

:40:57.:41:01.

them. I'm really sorry. The point about the paperwork, the point about

:41:02.:41:06.

the Latitude response to the coroner's recommendations, I mean we

:41:07.:41:11.

had to fight to get that verdict, to get a narrative verdict because it

:41:12.:41:14.

was going to be open-and-shut accident, that's it. It wasn't until

:41:15.:41:20.

we started investigating that we thought, there's more to this than

:41:21.:41:25.

the information we are being told. So we had to do the investigation

:41:26.:41:30.

ourselves and ask volunteers what's happened. We have never been allowed

:41:31.:41:35.

to communicate with the in-country manager who was responsible for

:41:36.:41:37.

health and safety and who took them into the sea. We have never been

:41:38.:41:43.

allowed to communicate with him because Latitude told us he was

:41:44.:41:46.

traumatised, then he was back at work. Then we had a meeting a year

:41:47.:41:52.

ago with the Board of Trustees, it was, he doesn't work for us any

:41:53.:41:55.

more, so we have never spoken to him. We have an awful lot of

:41:56.:41:59.

information we don't know and probably will never know, but what

:42:00.:42:04.

we do know is, when we did get that narrative verdict from the coroner,

:42:05.:42:09.

the coroner, the invest process is not allowed to apportion blame.

:42:10.:42:11.

They're very, very clear on this what you can and can't say. You

:42:12.:42:18.

cannot apportion blame. However, a narrative verdict meant that the

:42:19.:42:27.

coroner made recommendations. It's issued in cases where things can be

:42:28.:42:32.

done to prevent further deaths. Latitude responded, the coroner said

:42:33.:42:34.

in order to prevent further deaths you have to do X, Y and Z and

:42:35.:42:39.

Latitude said we have put the paperwork in place, ticked the

:42:40.:42:43.

bobbings. Our point is, you have the paperwork in place that could have

:42:44.:42:49.

saved Alice and Summer's lives in the initial risk assessment --

:42:50.:42:52.

ticked the box. We don't know where the breakdown is but it's in the

:42:53.:42:56.

communication, staff training, something went wrong because that

:42:57.:43:00.

information wasn't communicated to the volunteers. It wasn't like they

:43:01.:43:04.

thought oh, we know the sea is dangerous, we know we shouldn't be

:43:05.:43:08.

going in at this time, we know rip currents will be there but we are

:43:09.:43:12.

going to do it anyway and take our chances. They weren't given that

:43:13.:43:14.

information but somebody with them had that information. For whatever

:43:15.:43:20.

reason, they didn't tell us. It wasn't passed on. Thank you for

:43:21.:43:23.

talking to us and coming on the programme. Thank you.

:43:24.:43:28.

Some breaking news to bring you now. Clive Coleman is here, he's our

:43:29.:43:34.

legal affairs correspondent. What do you know?

:43:35.:43:39.

This is a very emotive case about a seven-year-old boy. He has a very

:43:40.:43:46.

rare genetic condition called PKU meaning he can't properly met about

:43:47.:43:50.

lie protein so he's limited to 12 grammes of protein a day, equivalent

:43:51.:43:53.

to about three slices of bread. If he eats more than that, he risks

:43:54.:43:58.

suffering serious brain damage. His case is complicated by the fact that

:43:59.:44:04.

he also has severe awe Tim, he's -- autism. He's non--verbal. So it's

:44:05.:44:09.

very, very difficult to regulate his diet. There is a drug that enables

:44:10.:44:16.

you to met about lie more protein. It's incredibly expensive, costing

:44:17.:44:19.

about ?100 per day. The NHS consultant treating this little boy,

:44:20.:44:24.

known only as A in these proceedings, wants him to have that

:44:25.:44:29.

drug and put in what's known as an independent funding request to NHS

:44:30.:44:33.

England. They turned it down, initially saying the case wasn't

:44:34.:44:36.

exceptional. They rode back on that and said that this combination of

:44:37.:44:44.

PKU and the autism does make the case exceptional but said they

:44:45.:44:47.

wouldn't fund the drug on the basis that its clinical and cost

:44:48.:44:52.

effectively hadn't been proven. The family brought a judicial case

:44:53.:44:54.

review on this and they've won on one of the grounds. The ground

:44:55.:44:58.

they've won on is that the judge has ruled that that decision not to fund

:44:59.:45:03.

the drug on the basis that it wasn't clinically or cost effective was

:45:04.:45:07.

irrational. Mrs Justice Andrews this morning said the decision to decline

:45:08.:45:11.

this application on the basis that the clinical effectiveness of this

:45:12.:45:18.

drug/intervention's not been demonstrated by a misinterpretation

:45:19.:45:21.

of the phrase "clinical effectiveness. " She said if

:45:22.:45:28.

clinical effectiveness is properly interpreted, the fact that the drug

:45:29.:45:36.

is useful is overwhelming. It's not a mandatory. The decision now goes

:45:37.:45:41.

back to NHS England with this powerful judgment behind it, so the

:45:42.:45:46.

chances are, I would suggest, he's likely to get it. They also brought

:45:47.:45:50.

this on a wider ground. If they won on this, it would have had

:45:51.:45:54.

implications for the parents of many children who have these rare

:45:55.:45:57.

conditions where the drugs are very expensive. They didn't win on that

:45:58.:46:02.

basis. So unfort Natally, this is restricted to this one child but it

:46:03.:46:06.

looks like he may well get the drug now.

:46:07.:46:13.

Road rage killer Kenneth Noye is to be transferred to an open prison

:46:14.:46:20.

after the Justice Secretary accepted a Parole Board recommendation.

:46:21.:46:26.

Kenneth Noye is to be transferred to an open prison after the Justice

:46:27.:46:31.

Secretary accepted an invitation from the Parole Board.

:46:32.:46:35.

A British computer expert hailed a hero after he stopped a worldwide

:46:36.:46:38.

cyber attack that crippled parts of the NHS has been

:46:39.:46:40.

23-year-old Marcus Hutchins has been charged with creating

:46:41.:46:51.

and distributing a separate cyber attack known as Kronos, which

:46:52.:46:53.

He's due to appear in court in Milwaukee later today charged

:46:54.:46:57.

with six counts of creating and selling the malware.

:46:58.:46:59.

Malware is software which is specifically

:47:00.:47:00.

designed to disrupt, damage, or gain access

:47:01.:47:02.

This is Marcus Hutchins, who is from Devon,

:47:03.:47:05.

speaking about his involvement in derailing the NHS

:47:06.:47:07.

I then saw lots of reports from different sort of sectors

:47:08.:47:18.

of the NHS, and they were just all simultaneously being

:47:19.:47:23.

And I thought, this one thing is hitting all these sectors so it's

:47:24.:47:28.

got to be something pretty big, so I went and I looked into it.

:47:29.:47:33.

I asked a friend of mine in the industry if he had a sample

:47:34.:47:36.

of the actual malware that was going around,

:47:37.:47:38.

I used virtualisation software which basically makes a computer

:47:39.:47:43.

within your computer, so that it wouldn't affect me,

:47:44.:47:45.

She's from the charity the Courage Foundation.

:47:46.:47:55.

She's been in contact with Marcus Hutchins' lawyers

:47:56.:47:57.

in the USA and is trying to help his case.

:47:58.:47:59.

Jeremiah Grossman is a cyber security expert and former hacker.

:48:00.:48:02.

He worked with Marcus Hutchins on WannaCry.

:48:03.:48:08.

He has been released from jail. Yes. Which you would say is good news? It

:48:09.:48:16.

is really good news. At his court dates last week he was granted bail

:48:17.:48:20.

for $30,000 which is really unusual in this case and it speaks to how

:48:21.:48:26.

organised and supportive his group of friends has been. The publicity

:48:27.:48:30.

helped as well. They couldn't raise that money and he was in custody and

:48:31.:48:35.

now he has been released? It took a while to get the money together in

:48:36.:48:38.

the United States and he was released late last night. In the

:48:39.:48:42.

court case you're telling me has been moved to next week? Yes,

:48:43.:48:46.

because of the timing. So he is in Vegas at the moment. He will have to

:48:47.:48:53.

go to Wisconsin to be arraigned formerly and that will take place on

:48:54.:49:02.

Monday. Right, so, Mr Hutchins lawyer says he denies the charges.

:49:03.:49:08.

Are the two reconcilable? The US prosecutor's statement has been

:49:09.:49:10.

misrepresented because my understanding of what was said was

:49:11.:49:13.

that he admitted to writing some of the code which appeared in the Mall

:49:14.:49:17.

ware. Which is a different thing. Somebody can appropriate somebody

:49:18.:49:20.

else's code which has been released on the internet and writing code,

:49:21.:49:24.

which others go on to repurpose and misuse in some way, is not a crime,

:49:25.:49:28.

even in the United States. OK. What can you tell us about the

:49:29.:49:36.

Mall ware that Mr Hutchins has been accused of designing effectively,

:49:37.:49:44.

charged with designing? It is a little curious because it is a form

:49:45.:49:48.

of malware it is three or four years old. At the time it was regarded as

:49:49.:49:51.

a failure. It was written to be resold and used for banking fraud,

:49:52.:49:57.

but it never really went anywhere. When the name came up, we had to go

:49:58.:50:01.

become and figure out what it was because no one actually heard of it.

:50:02.:50:05.

Is it your theory that Marcus Hutchins could have been making this

:50:06.:50:08.

for the purpose of understanding it better? We don't know. The

:50:09.:50:14.

Department of Justice issued the indictment, but it was devoid of any

:50:15.:50:18.

particular evidence. So we really don't know what they're holding on

:50:19.:50:24.

to as far as they think Marcus might have had his hand on it. It could be

:50:25.:50:30.

like he wrote some code, somebody that originally wrote it

:50:31.:50:33.

reappropriated his code and they saw it was his and all of a sudden he's

:50:34.:50:38.

wrapped up in a big mess. OK. I wonder, isn't that the go to defence

:50:39.:50:41.

when you have been caught doing something illegal? My understanding

:50:42.:50:52.

is that he's going to plead not guilty in Wisconsin next week. I

:50:53.:50:57.

think that as the indictment is incredibly thin. There is no

:50:58.:51:02.

indication of what evidence US prosecutors have, if any, and we

:51:03.:51:06.

have to wait until next week. How do you react to what happened to him? I

:51:07.:51:10.

think it's quite shocking. I think the way it happened was quite

:51:11.:51:13.

shocking. He was arrested at the airport just as he was about to

:51:14.:51:17.

board his plane. He managed to speak to his parents now, but his mother,

:51:18.:51:21.

the first thing she knew he didn't get off his plane back from the

:51:22.:51:26.

United States. It is pretty bad and I think that these prosecutions in

:51:27.:51:29.

the US are quite political and the fact that Marcus has such a

:51:30.:51:33.

high-profile, that he is regarded as a hero here. He did an enormous

:51:34.:51:38.

service to anyone by stopping the Mall ware in its tracks and because

:51:39.:51:42.

of when he did it, it is individuals and businesses in the US who

:51:43.:51:46.

benefited disproportionately for that because he did it before the

:51:47.:51:52.

East Coast turn their computers on. It is an unfortunate fact that

:51:53.:51:56.

having a high-profile makes you a target for prosecutors in the US.

:51:57.:51:58.

Thank you very much. Shocking footage has emerged

:51:59.:52:06.

of a woman, who escaped serious injury after appearing to be pushed

:52:07.:52:11.

by a jogger into the path Our correspondent

:52:12.:52:15.

Jessica Parker is with me. First, let's

:52:16.:52:19.

have a look at the CCTV. If you look at the footage of the

:52:20.:52:29.

jogger you can see him running across Putney Bridge. This is in

:52:30.:52:33.

West London. This on 5th May where appears to push this woman into the

:52:34.:52:38.

path of an on coming bus and you can see the bus swerving to avoid her.

:52:39.:52:43.

If we look again at the footage. He is running across Putney Bridge.

:52:44.:52:50.

Away from Putney Bridge Station. As he runs past the woman, this is at

:52:51.:52:55.

7.40am. There he appears to push her. She falls over. The bus

:52:56.:53:02.

swerving there to avoid her. The 33-year-old woman sustaining pinor

:53:03.:53:05.

injuries. The bus stopped and passengers got off the bus to go to

:53:06.:53:08.

her aid. And what are the police saying? Well, they are appealing for

:53:09.:53:12.

people to come forward who witnessed the incident. The jogger is

:53:13.:53:17.

described as a white man with brown eyes and short brown hair, wearing a

:53:18.:53:21.

light grey T-shirt and dark blue shorts and apparently 15 minutes

:53:22.:53:25.

after the incident he came back across the bridge and the woman, the

:53:26.:53:28.

victim, who was still there, tried to talk to him, but he didn't

:53:29.:53:31.

acknowledge her and carried on running, but as I say, police urging

:53:32.:53:37.

witnesses to come forward or the jogger himself, the investigating

:53:38.:53:40.

officer saying the victim was put in extreme danger when she was knocked

:53:41.:53:43.

into the road. It was only due to the superb quick reaction of the bus

:53:44.:53:46.

driver that she was not hit by the vehicle. Incredible. Thank you very

:53:47.:53:49.

much, Jessica. The police say if you have got more

:53:50.:53:53.

information, please, please, please, get in touch with them.

:53:54.:53:57.

The organisers of the athletics World Championships in London have

:53:58.:54:15.

revealed that a number of athletes have contracted gastroenteritis.

:54:16.:54:17.

Those who've come down with it include members of the German team,

:54:18.:54:20.

and the Botswanan athlete Isaac Makwala who had to pull out

:54:21.:54:23.

The organisers of the athletics World Championships in London have

:54:24.:54:26.

revealed that a number of athletes have contracted gastroeteritis.

:54:27.:54:29.

Those who've come down with it include members of the German team,

:54:30.:54:31.

and the Botswanan athlete Isaac Makwala who had to pull out

:54:32.:54:34.

Dr Deborah Turbitt from Public Health England

:54:35.:54:37.

How many people have been affected? 20 to 30 people. What is

:54:38.:54:42.

gastroenteritis? That's diarrhoea and vomiting. So those are the

:54:43.:54:44.

symptoms that people have been experiencing. With Norovirus it

:54:45.:54:47.

usually lasts between 24 and 48 hours and people get better on their

:54:48.:54:51.

own. The important thing, it spreads from person to person. So, we have

:54:52.:54:57.

been advising the athletics organisers about how to ask people

:54:58.:55:02.

to be very careful about their hygiene and cleaning. So that any

:55:03.:55:06.

virus that gets into the environment is not able to spread to other

:55:07.:55:11.

people. And how would someone contract it in

:55:12.:55:16.

the first place? It is directly from another person who has the illness

:55:17.:55:20.

because they're shedding the virus. It comes outs with the vomit or

:55:21.:55:24.

diarrhoea and gets into the environment and goes on hands or

:55:25.:55:30.

surfaces and so, people need to, when they're having symptoms, stay

:55:31.:55:33.

away as much as possible from other people and that's what we have been

:55:34.:55:36.

asking the people who have been affected to do.

:55:37.:55:40.

OK. And as far as you know, it is nothing to do with where they are

:55:41.:55:44.

staying? No, it is nothing to do with where they are staying. Our

:55:45.:55:48.

belief is that some people arrived with the virus and have managed to

:55:49.:55:52.

spread it to other people. They didn't know they were doing that

:55:53.:55:55.

obviously, but it does spread very easily and particularly when people

:55:56.:56:00.

are gathered together. It's the sort of outbreaks we see all the time in

:56:01.:56:05.

places like schools and hospitals and on cruise ships. It's quite

:56:06.:56:10.

common. Right. OK. But it's a real shame for them? It is. They are

:56:11.:56:14.

supposed to be competing and they have been gearing up for this

:56:15.:56:17.

goodness knows how long and training for it? Yes. They will get better,

:56:18.:56:21.

but for it to happen just at the point where they are wanting to

:56:22.:56:25.

compete is a great shame for them personally, yes. Thank you very

:56:26.:56:33.

much. Some messages now from those of you

:56:34.:56:40.

who watched our film from our reporter Amber Hack on the stigma

:56:41.:56:45.

surrounding a cancer diagnosis amongst women in the South Asian

:56:46.:56:49.

community. A viewer says, "It might be time to go for a cervical smear

:56:50.:56:55.

test because Asian women are not getting tested." Mike says, "Working

:56:56.:57:00.

nn an operating theatre we had a British woman into our theatre for

:57:01.:57:05.

an emergency operation. She did not report her abdominal pain until she

:57:06.:57:11.

was actually passing faeces or rally." Another viewer on Facebook

:57:12.:57:15.

says, "There is no stigma to cancer. Stop this now. I never ever heard

:57:16.:57:22.

such nonsense in my life." A reminder this morning, a close

:57:23.:57:27.

friend of, Chloe Ayling, the model who was allegedly held captive by a

:57:28.:57:31.

gang in Italy told this programme that she thinks her friend was

:57:32.:57:36.

misled. She has known Chloe Ayling since she was 15 and who also runs a

:57:37.:57:40.

model agency has talked to Chloe Ayling in the last couple of days.

:57:41.:57:47.

Chloe being a friend of mine, I just think Chloe is o and good girl. A

:57:48.:57:51.

little bit naive. Could she be misled? I just don't want to say to

:57:52.:57:58.

be honest. Obviously she has grown up to when I knew her from the

:57:59.:58:02.

beginning at 15. She is now a 20-year-old woman, but if anything

:58:03.:58:05.

happened like that, I would say she was misled.

:58:06.:58:11.

Thank you for your company. We're back tomorrow at 9am.

:58:12.:58:15.

An exclusive report on the British South Asian women who are hiding their cancer diagnosis because of stigma.

Plus an exclusive interview with a friend and colleague of Chloe Ayling, the model who was kidnapped in Italy, who tells Victoria how models are put in danger.

And the latest on the norovirus bug that's struck London 2017 athletes.