08/08/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello it's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

Experts tell us that some women not seeking treatment early enough

I don't know how long this woman was hiding cancer. Her breast was

rotten. Also on the programme -

the 20-year-old British model who was allegedly held captive

by a gang in Italy was told she would be sold in the Middle East

"for sex", according to her lawyer. She was told that people were there

watching her and ready to kill her if she tried anything. So she

thought that the best idea was to go along with it.

We'll talk to a close friend of Chloe Ayling who's spoken

to the model since she returned to the UK.

And we'll hear calls to ban the use of police

Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11.

Throughout the programme the latest breaking news

A little later we'll hear how the former boss of GCHQ -

Britain's electronic surveillance agency - is calling for children

to spend more time online to help save the country.

Robert Hannigan says instead of allowing kids to "mooch"

around the streets - parents should encourage them

to have more screen time and that it's not a wasted life.

Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

use the hashtag Victoria live and If you text, you will be charged

The lawyer for a British model who was allegedly held captive

by a gang in Italy has been giving more details about the case.

Francesco Peschi says Chloe Ayling, who's 20 and from South London,

was told by her kidnappers that she would be sold

He said she was acting under duress, when she was seen shopping

with her captor before she was freed.

Gavin Lee is following the story in Milan. Fill us in on the details

from Chloe Ayling's lawyer? The point Francesco is making, he said

there was a lot of misreporting, there are lots of facts in the case

that he wanted to make sure there is clarity on, partly because he

believes some British newspapers in particular have started to raise

questions about whether she was complicit. He said categorically,

this is something his clients, the police, the chief investigators

believe she's gone through the most psychological and physical trauma

and torment. So from the route to the fruit, as he sees it, what

happened is that she arrived in Milan here on July 10th. The next

day she saw a photo shoot advert, a fake one, close to Central Station.

She went into a room. She saw three men very briefly, all had

balaclavas, one put a hand on her mouth to stop her screaming, very

quickly she was injected with something. We heard yesterday that

it was a ketamine drug. She was placed in a bag, taken 120 miles in

a car. It was a place close to the French Alps, there is one remote

area. One man lives there. He told us if somebody is being held there

he would not have heard. What happened to here in there is that he

said she was tied to a box for two days and slowly released as she

became more trusted by her captors. She is what he told me. -- this is

what he told me. She was told she was going to be sold to somebody in

the Middle East for sex. She was told that people were there watching

her and ready to kill her if she tried anything. So she thought that

the best idea was to go along with it and to be nice in a way to her

captor Because he told her he wanted to release her somehow and some

time. I've been to this remote place, it's a place where tourists

go because there are bears, wolves, at night-time it's particularly

unpleasant because of the sound scape of the place. In the farmhouse

at the bottom, the bottom floor where she was held to a chest of

drawers, she was slowly released with time but was told if she left

she'd be killed. Here is the thing - the day before she was released,

after seven days, not six, she was seen in a nearby village with her

captor and that she was buying shoes, groceries together. What the

lawyer has said is categorically, this was absolutely part of her way

of surviving, she was told if she moved she would be killed. In fact,

she was told the next day she'd probably be sold in the Middle East

for around ?230,000. That was the idea they were trying to raise on an

auction site, this group called the Black death group and what happened

was the alleged chief suspect who was Polish who spent time living in

Oldbury in the West Midlands, he said, if you stick with me, I will

release you. Here is the other thing that was different. Yesterday he was

claiming, according to the lawyers, that he released her because she had

a two-year-old baby, a son, he's since changed his statement we are

told by the police, he said he released her because he felt an

affinity with her. She was driven to the consulate. He went in with her,

she was then questioned there. She spent three weeks after that in

Italy according to the lawyer as well and only came back on Sunday

after helping police with their enquiries, so she's had two days

back in the UK and has spoken briefly, reading a statement about

her ordeal. In terms of the Italian police investigation, where do they

say they're up to in this? We think according to the lawyers and the

police statements, there are between three and four people who were

hiding Chloe in this remote area. There were two cars, a Mercedes with

British registration plates seen by the neighbours there, there was also

a Volvo with Polish registration plates, that was the one that drove

to the consulate. They're looking at the moment at exactly how big this

group is, that there are other people apparently they've suggested

they could sell on online sites although nothing's come to fruition.

The group seemed to be selling on pornographic websites, pictures from

the porn shoots and not the victims, it was then questioned, was this

some sort of scam group. This will take a long time to work out. It

will take six months to go through court. Just being here, in the

fashion capital of the world in Milan, there are lots of young

models drawn to this place, modelling agencies I've spoken to

over the past day or so say this is not the formula that you would go

through. What would happen is that you would always be escorted from

the UK to Milan if ever there was a proper photo shoot deal. They are

warning if ever women are in a similar position, this is not the

way to do it. This is for Chloe's sake, given what we are hearing, is

a most horrendous ordeal. Thank you very much indeed. About 9.

45, we'll talk to one of Chloe's close friends who's spoken to her

since she returned to the UK. The Victoria Derbyshire Programme

has learned that a number of women in the UK from South Asian

backgrounds who have cancer hide it because of a perceived

stigma about the disease. they're worried cultural

taboos are leading to more Some women even hide

their diagnosis from family and friends out of shame -

in one case a woman only sought treatment

when her breast was rotten. More than 40 maternity units in

England closed to new admissions according to data obtained by

Labour. 42 out of 96 Trusts that responded to a Freedom of

Information request said they'd shut maternity wards temporarily on 382

occasions. Labour has blamed staffing shortages but the

Government says that is misleading and closures are well rehearsed.

Norfolk police have said a victim was stabbed in the head and neck

whilst walking his doings in the woodland, he was 82 and seen as

well-mannered, well-natured and well-liked. Officers have appealed

for information. Police in West London are appealing for help to

find a person who appeared to push a man into a pedestrian into the road.

The oncroping bus is forced to swerve into the next lane to avoid

hitting her. The bus stopped and passengers tended to the woman who

received minor injuries. An appeal has been launch for witnesses or

anyone who recognises the jogger, described as white, in his early to

mid 30s with brown eyes and short brown hair. Anyone with information

is asked to call police. They can also call Crimestoppers. Crime stop

Britain's most senior judge has told the government it must provide more

clarity about how UK law will be developed after Brexit.

Currently, UK legislation is subject to rulings made

Lord Neuberger said Parliament must be "very clear" in telling

the judges what to do about decisions of this court

Another victim of the 11 September 2001 attack

on the World Trade Center in New York City has been identified

The name of the man is being withheld at

The last time a victim was identified was March 2015.

Only 60% of the victims of the attack have

There are calls to ban the use of tasers on anyone under 18.

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health say the devices

are harmful and should not be used on children - and adds that Tasering

a minor contravenes the UN Conventions on the Rights

The youngest child to be fired at with a taser is thought to be 14

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am.

Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

use the hashtag Victoria Live and if you text, you will be charged

Let's get some sport now with Leah and so near yet so far

for Britain's Laura Muir at the world athletics last night?

It was another disappointing night in terms of medals

She said it was gut wrenching. She was overtaken at the end. She missed

out by 700th of a second at the finish line. It was agonisingly

close for the 24-year-old who had actually recovered from a stress

fracture in her foot in June and, even though she said she was gutted

she said she gave it her all. Another disappointing night

generally for Britain in terms of medals? Yes, Sophie Hitchon left the

hammer cage in tears, despite giving it her best throw. She came seventh.

She couldn't hold her emowses back. It shows the passion. 12 months ago

from last night, she won bronze in Rio but it wasn't meant to be for

her this time around. She's a former ballerina. That meant no British

medals but they of the men, as you are seeing, made the 200 metres

semi-finals. Danny Talbot got a personal best.

Justin Gatlin's agent has been speaking to the BBC

in the wake of the booing after his 100 metre win.

Lots of talk about this. People think the American strinter

shouldn't have been taking part in this because he served for doping

twice. The IAAF reinstated him. They say he hasn't broken any rules this

time around but his agent has spoken out, saying that everyone should

basically get over the fact that Gatlin served the drugs bans and

he's not particularly happy with Lord Coe either. Have a listen. I

take offence to, with all due respect, Lord Coe, he is a part of

the IAAF who set the rules and punishment and when you serve the

punishment you are supposed to be reinstated, which these athletes who

have offended and abused some of the rules have, and if you don't want

them in, you should change the rules. You don't allow them in and

still condemn them. We are talking about 11 years, the doping ban, so

at some point we all have to move past this.

And it seems like some of the athletes have been laid

Yes, they are staying at one of the team hotels in London and have come

down with gastroenteritis. The hotel will investigate the origins of the

illness but they say they believe the hotel was not the source of the

bug and they've made sure anyone affected isn't in contact with other

guests but it's hit some big names, including Isaac Makwala from

Botswana who missed the 200 metres last night. He's a favourite for the

400 metres too. Several other German and Canadian athletes staying at the

hotel fell ill last week too. We'll have to see that one. More at 9. 30.

In half an hour's time we will talk to a close friend of the 20-year-old

British model who is back in the UK after allegedly being kidnapped in

Milan. That is at 9.45am. This programme has learned that

a number of UK women from South Asian backgrounds

who have cancer, hide it, because of a perceived

stigma about the disease. Researchers say they're worried that

cultural taboos are leading to more women dying prematurely

in the South Asian community. We've discovered that some

hide their diagnosis from family and friends out of shame

and in one case a woman only sought treatment when her

breast was "rotten". Our reporter Amber Haque has been

looking into what needs to be done She said she was going to refuse

chemo because God gave it to her. The reluctance to go

for a smear is deemed to be like you're being unfaithful,

it is like infidelity. I've become aware of South Asian

women who have had a diagnosis of cancer and they've

kept it very hidden. She says, "You've been given cancer

and you can cover this up now." A woman who came with a rotten

breast and it was smelling so much that you couldn't even sit

next to it. Research suggests that one in two

of us will get cancer And some people, particularly

in the South Asian community, They are not going for cancer

screening, and in some instances, they are even

hiding their diagnosis. Because it's a shame,

it's a death sentence And there's a concern

that belief is causing The breasts aren't just seen

as another part of your body. Therefore, anyone touching them

is doing it in a sexual way. This is from the perspective

of the husband. Praveena stumbled upon a lump

in her breast when she was 36. She grew up in a strict Indian

community, where even talking about the disease was seen

as something shameful. When she was diagnosed,

she decided to hide it. So, a lot of it, in terms

of not telling my family, I didn't tell them because I just

thought if people hear the fact that I've got cancer,

they're going to think Maybe I lived a bad life,

therefore God has punished me And I just didn't want to be

associated with that. And so, hiding it was

the obvious choice for me. It was lonely.

I won't deny that. I was going to chemotherapy

sessions on my own. I drove

myself there and back. And I had very dark

days because of that. I suppose I probably also went

through some form of depression. In recent years now,

I've become aware of South Asian women who have had a diagnosis

of breast cancer or cervical cancer and they have kept it very hidden,

they have hit a in their homes. Pooja is the lead researcher

for a team called CLAHRC. They're funded by a research

arm of the NHS and work with public and professionals

on health inequalities. She has spent the past few years

looking at attitudes towards cancer She says she's worried by some

of the things she has heard Some of the other conversations I've

had with Bangladeshi women that really surprised me,

and it's quite sad really, they would hide the shame

in their eyes of having a cancer diagnosis because they felt it would

influence their children's future. And that potentially, no one

would want to marry their children, And some woman went to the extent

of not even having treatments, because if they went for treatment,

people will now that they have had cancer because they

might lose their hair. Why do you think going

for cancer screening is such The reluctance to go

for a smear is that you don't For the husband, it's deemed

to be like you are being You've been tainted

by someone else all almost. I've also heard through other

friends in conversation about how sometimes people felt the smear test

will actually stretch them and therefore that's not

something they want to do. As shocking as that may seem,

these are real things that actually When it came to South Asian women,

there were some specific issues that actually were raised

within this work. For example, there was more

of an issue around shame, an issue around modesty and about

the influence from the males and If they didn't think that women

should be going for screening, What are some of the more shocking

misconceptions you have I think the fact that cancer doesn't

happen to South Asian women. As well as that, another aspect

when it came to going for smears, was about women losing

their virginity by And then again, not being able

to get married because there would be proof that they weren't

a virgin any more. These were quite surprising, I

think, conversations that I've had. It's hard to say just how

serious the problem is because very little information has

been collected on ethnicity Research we do have has shown Asian

women with breast cancer have poorer survival,

and are more likely to present with advanced tumours

when they do get diagnosed. Experts tell us they're concerned

that cultural stigmas are leading I worked in the cancer

field for many years, maybe 30 years or more,

and over the time I've seen a lot of Asian women,

and the sad thing is that because of the ignorance

of not presenting early, not following or going

through the screening programme or not examining their breasts,

they are presented late So then there is a stigma attached

that when you have got cancer, Do we know for a fact that

South Asian women are having poorer I'd say yeah, the literature does

highlight and the evidence suggests that South Asian women are more

likely to have worse outcomes. And would it be fair to say that

some of those deaths are avoidable? Yeah, you could say that some

of them are preventable because if they had of been

for their screening it may have been picked up

when the cancer was minute. The concern is that women

are suffering unnecessarily. South Asian women are more

likely to be from poor and deprived backgrounds,

meaning the levels of Charities and local authorities do

what they can with translated But should the community

be doing more? I'm meeting a group of Asian women

who have all been affected So, before I was diagnosed,

I didn't know anything. I'd never self-checked

and we never really spoke about it in the house,

about the importance of self-checking, so

for me when I found out, It was a pure accident when I found

a lump in my breast. I would describe it as a size

of a golf ball. To give you an idea of how big

the tumour, the cancer is. I was very fortunate

that it hadn't spread. Again, I think the biggest

shock for me was, why For some reason it never

hit my radar at all. We'd had heart disease,

diabetes in our family, But cancer was never mentioned,

cancer was never spoken about. I had one sister ring me up

and said sister, I think She said, "Well, you have been

given cancer, you have So my mum, I don't think she's ever

been for a smear test. The thought of somebody

seeing her probably naked from the waist below was the most

uncomfortable feeling in the world for her,

so she just didn't want to go. Even though we've been

through everything. These, I'm hoping, are very

small numbers of people. If we know that there are some

circumstances in local communities where the men's view of this

is quite important, and then it would be for the local areas,

the GPs or the CCGs to understand that, to talk to those groups

of people and help unpick some There will be men who have

comfortably allowed their wives, and even encouraged their wives

to have these things, Why wouldn't you want your wife

not to have cancer? How often do you see Asian women

that have had positive experiences That are very few Asian

women who have had a lot This reminds me of a woman who came

to see us with a fungal thing, a rotten breast, and it was smelling

so much that you couldn't I don't know how long

she was hiding that. So she had literally

left it that long? Because the cancer had spread

to other parts of the body as well. I mean, it was very

sad for the young lady But because she couldn't

share that with everyone. How often do you hear that women

feel like they can't share In my case, there was

no support as such. My husband just said,

"I cannot cope with this", But I felt like there was no

one I could talk to. I remember speaking to my in-laws

and they said, "Don't cry, you have to be strong

for your husband and your child". But I want my husband to be that

strength and that shield now. Why do I have to be the one who has

do pick up the weight in the Asian family and be strong when I'm

going through all of this? I just thought, I don't want to be

strong, I want it to be At chemo, I spoke to an Asian woman

who really found it difficult Her husband literally stood

over her during chemo to make sure So that when they left

the unit, she was looking When we talk about educating

ourselves, we need to educate our brothers and fathers

and husbands even more. I don't think that conversations

happen in the house. Before any educational TV or any

adverts or leaflets or centres, we need to get to a point

where parents and mothers are comfortable with educating

their daughters at home to say lets, Anything, any changes to your body,

let's talk about it. What would you like to see,

moving forward now, So, we've got some data on what has

been implemented, but we haven't got data on how effective those

implementations have been. And I think we need to collect that

data so that we can really influence the type of interventions that

are required and which aren't working and which

ones aren't working. So ultimately, we can

work with public health When we get the CLAHRC results,

we will implement those things and we've got every reason to think

that will help save women from Asian backgrounds lives

as well as other people from poor It's that moment of realisation

of me losing my hair. And knowing that because it's

on the outside rather on the inside, and visible to the world,

it's something that he wouldn't Praveena completed her chemo

and is now in remission. She and her husband got divorced

during her treatment, something she says was partly due

to cultural expectations Do you think that getting cancer led

to the breakdown of your marriage? The bearing on him was that my wife

had to look in a particular way. And for her to look ill in front

of other people was not acceptable. So he never knew, he will do now,

but he never knew the extent of the side-effects that I had

from the chemotherapy. For Praveena, it's the community

itself that needs to work harder. And no matter how educated you are,

and I am from the medical profession, and I know all these

things, and yet I still felt I had And that's down to my upbringing,

down to the baggage. Thank you for your comments. Daniel

picking up on the last point, "Many South Asian women are doctors and

work in the NHS. How can this stigma be the case?" Yasmin says,

"Delighted you are tackling the stigma and raising awareness. Kerry

says, "No need for stigma. You should just reach out to people. You

won't be alone. You would have loads of caring, lovely people going

through the same battle as you." Whatever your own experience, do get

in touch. You can e-mail me. You can message

me on Twitter using the hashtag Victoria Live.

Children as young as 14 are thought to have been hit with tasers.

Should police be banned from using them on anyone

And in a few minutes, we'll speak to a friend of Chloe Ayling,

the model who says she was held captive by gang in Italy for a week.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news.

Chloe Ayling who is 20 and from South London says she was told by

her kidnappers she'd be sold as a sex slave in the Middle East. She

says she was acting unduh derest when she was seen out shopping with

her captor. She was told that people were there watching and ready to

kill her if she tried anything so she thought that the best idea was

to go along with it and to be nice, in a way, to her captor. This

programme has learnt a number of women in the UK from South Asian

backgrounds who have cancer hide it because of a perceived stigma about

the disease. Researchers say they're worried cultural taboos are leading

to more women dying prematurely, some women even hide their Tighe

know six from family and friends out of shame. In one case a woman only

sought treatment when her breast was rotten.

More than 40 maternity units in England closed to new admissions at

some point last year according to data obtained by Labour. 42 out of

96 Trusts said they'd shut wards temporarily on 382 occasions.

Labour's blamed staffing shortages but the Government says that is

misleading and closures are well rehearsed. Police in West London are

asking for help to identify a jogger who appeared to push a pedestrian

into the path of a bus, dramatic CCTV showing the incident which

happened in May. It shows the man running along Putney Bridge and

appearing to push the woman into the road. The bus is forced to swerve

into the next lane to aLloyd hitting her. The bus stopped and passengers

tended to the woman who received minor injuries. An appeal has been

launched for witnesses or anyone who recognises the jogger, described as

white, early to mid 30s with brown eyes and short brown hair. Anyone

with information is asked to call police or Crimestoppers. Exam

results in Scotland have been published this morning. The

proportion of A-to-Cs passes fell slightly from 77. 77.2% to 77% this

year, almost 137,000 candidates receiving their results through the

post today, but more than a third signed up to get their results by

text or e-mail. That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10am. The perceived stigma surrounding

cancer, particularly for women in the South Asian community, on that,

Laura says fantastic coverage of this. The stigma faced among South

Asian women, thank you for lifting the lid and another viewer says

thank you for highlighting the stigma of how South Asian women face

when cancer hits. It's sad and we need toe teach the men to help. If

you want to read more, please do, it's on the BBC News website.

Leah is back now with the sport. Great Britain's big medal hope in

the 1500 metres says she's gutted she missed out on a bronze. Laura

Muir was tipped at the finish line in dramatic fashion. She finished

fourth. She now goes in the 5000 metres this week. Former ballerina

Sophie Hitchon couldn't contain her tears in the hammer final. This time

last year she managed a bronze in Rio but looked utterly devastated

leaving the rammer cage last night. Several stars have suffered illness,

including Isaac Watkala. One of the hotels says it was not the source of

the outbreak of the Castro enteritis. Could Gareth Bale be

heading back to the Premier League? Jose Mourinho says he'll fight to

sign the Real Madrid forward. Real Madrid and Manchester United

play each other tonight. That is all from me, Jess is back with more at

10. There are calls to ban the use

of tasers on anyone under 18. It comes as new figures show

police have used tasers That doesn't mean they've

actually been fired - it could mean taken out

of the holster or drawn. The youngest child to be fired

with a taser is thought to be 14. Now the Royal College of Paediatrics

and Child Health say the devices are harmful and should not

be used on children, and adds that Tasering

a minor contravenes the UN Conventions on the Rights

of the Child. Here's a short video showing police

training how to use a Taser. We can speak now to Steve White,

chair of the Police Federation, who is also a serving officer

of 29 years. Oliver Feeley-Sprage, human rights

group Amnesty International's Welcome. Explain Steve what a Taser

is and why the police use it sometimes? It's basically an

electrical device powered by battery, it fires two barbs, simple

O-level physics essentially, if the two barbs go to the sub ject, the

current runs which produces muscle contractions in the person that it's

being fired on. Time and time again it's shown to be extremely

effective. What is important to recognise is that as you rightly

pointed out, Taser use is not really about firing, it's about the threat

of use and understanding that if you don't comply with what the officer

is saying, this could be coming your way. Nine times out of ten, probably

even higher proportion than that, people understand the threat and it

immediately deescalates the situation, regardless of the

person's age. Do you accept that? For us it's a specialist tool that

has a clear rationale to be used in particular circumstances, but it

comes with risks. It's not just us that says that, it's the

Government's own medical advice. It points to the fact that it can be

lethal. There have been deaths in the UK, there are a number of

inquests going on at the moment. There are two cases at least that

I'm aware of where Taser use has been linked to the deaths. They're

extremely painful as weapons. As a human rights organisation, we say

their use must be incredibly carefully controlled and must only

be used in certain circumstances, that's where our concern lies here.

Would you say they are only used in the circumstances where it's

absolutely necessary as outlined? Absolutely. Every time a police

officer says he needs a tactical option in terms of force, they have

to do it in the terms of the threat they're facing and the public are

facing. It's not a question of give every copper a Taser so instead of

stopping them you can red dot them. We are talking about a tactical

option. Whilst nothing is 100% safe, statistics show the instances of

harm to police officers and suspects are gone down since Taser has been

introduced. I would much rather that someone had the threat of Taser than

was hit with a baton, iron bar or deployed with CS. We often end up

rolling around on the floor with people when we are detaining them.

Injuries happen and some are serious. Taser is a very safe

tactical option. This tweet from Anthony which I'll put to you

Oliver, reusing Tasers on children, what are the police expected to do

to defend themselves if a "child" comes at them armed with a knife or

worse a gun which might be loaded? OK, well let's look at this first

from the Government's own medical advice. They clearly say that

Tasering young people carries risks, both to health but also

psychologically. That is reflected in the UN standards that clearly say

it's risky and today UK medical bodies have come out and said so. So

I think we start from the perspective here that Tasering

children is something that really shouldn't happen. But it doesn't say

that it should never happen because there are extreme circumstances

where in that instance... So in this example that Anthony is talking

about? Yes, where somebody may die and the tactical option wasn't used.

I think if you set the standard which says you shouldn't be using

this against children unless there is really no alternative, that would

probably be a sensible way forward. Is that not the standard, are you

not actually saying the same thing? We are saying before, we do agree on

most things. Because you are not calling for it to be banned on under

18s are you? No, but we do want greater protection. We want it much

clearly specified in the guidelines on Taser use that Tasering children

comes with additional risks and that there should be a strict prohibition

against using it. But not saying that in all circumstances you

couldn't, for the example of the tweet, you know, that is a clear

example where the exception includes the rule. We need a check on

reality. It's very well sitting round thinking about the ins and

outs and the guidance 679 our officers face the threats day in day

out. We have seen a rise in knife crime for example... Sure and nobody

would disagree with that. But Oliver is saying, on the specific guidance

and really that language is tight for an officer to read and learn and

absorb, do you agree with the kind of language that Oliver's used?

Let's go back to the practical application, in terms of assessing

someone's age, are you going to go through a semi interview before you

find out. Of course that's completely impractical and people

would understand that there are some people who're under 18 and look mid

20s, there are some who're over 18 and look as though they're young

teens. It's a very difficult area which is why it's got to be based on

threat and risk, it can't be based on an arbitrary figure, whether it

be 16, 21, simple as that. Is that a fair point? I think what I would say

is there is a mismatch between the Government's medical advice on the

use of Taser and the guidance in place in writing about one Tasers

should be used. But on that specific point about under 18s, how would you

know? There are 15-year-old lads who look 21? Exactly and that comes down

to the officer training, that is another issue that we've not been

getting into here. It's a key thing that the officers have to be most

highly trained. Matt says people forget there are many six foot plus

14-year-olds and when you combine with that with mind-altering drugs,

a Taser is a safe way for the police and the perpetrator to gain control

of the situation. Thank you both very much.

The Home Office says they are an important tactical operation for

trained officers, particularly in potentially violent situations where

other things have failed. The statement says the police have to

record the location and outcome of all Taser usage along with the

ethnicity and age of those involved. The Toronto police officer

who bought a shoplifter A British model who was allegedly

held captive by a gang in Italy was told she would be sold

in the Middle East "for sex," Francesco Peschi also told the BBC

that 20-year-old Chloe Ayling had been acting under duress

when she was taken shopping The ordeal is alleged to have

taken place last month, and was made public by Italian

police only last week. She was told that people

were there watching her and ready to kill her if she tried anything,

so she thought that the best And to be nice in a way to her

captor because he told her that he wanted to release her.

Let's talk exclusively now to Carla Belluci,

a close friend of Chloe Ayling who has known her since she was 15.

Carla has been speaking to Chloe in the last couple of days.

A friend of Chloe - how's she been in the last couple of days?

She's doing relatively well. As soon as I knew that it was Chloe, I

called her and it was very emotional. What did she say about

what happened to her? Obviously a lot cannot be talked ability because

of the police and what is happening with the case but she did say that

she was drugged and drove I believe 100-odd miles whilst in a suitcase.

What did she say about that ordeal? She said it was horrendous. A lot of

it she was trying not to get herself into trouble as she was talking to

me but I could feel in her voice she was trying to be strong. And was she

able to recall lots of detail or was stuff coming back to her? Stuff is

coming back to her. I didn't want to step too deep by saying, what

actually happened. But she said she was drugged with ketamine and I

think now memories are coming back to her slowly. Right. You will have

heard that her lawyer talked today about the reason that she was seen

shopping with the captor before she was freed was because he threatened

her and said, you know, if you don't do what I say, you are at risk of

losing your life, effectively. Did she talk about that? The first I

knew of that was when I read last night or this morning, it's come out

that she was seen shopping with him. That she did not mention to me. What

do you think of what the lawyer said about that?

I mean if you are under that circumstance where somebody is

threatening your life, you are going to do whatever you're going to do to

keep yourself safe. So I don't really want to comment. She was

there. She was going through it at the time. You said she was strong on

the phone to you on Sunday. I mean you've known her for five years. Is

she strong? Is she wise? I wouldn't say she is the wisest of girls. She

is be a little bit naive, she's young, but I think she has had three

weeks to get used to this, so it happened a few weeks ago so she has

been in Italy while this has been going on, for us this is new, but

she had a few weeks to get used to it. I would say she is quite naive

to get herself in that position. I will ask you more about that in a

moment. Was she upset on the phone? Did she cry? She seemed upset and

kept saying, "I'm all right." Because I was upset, that was my

initial reaction. I am emotional. She was like don't cry. I'm OK. She

was almost reassuring me and I wanted to reassure her. Did she

explain why she stayed in Italy? She had to stay in Italy whilst the

investigation was going on. She had to remain in the country. So you say

she is not the wisest of the girls. She is naive. She is young. What do

you know about the arrangement that she had made for this photo-shoot in

Milan without naming names? I just know that she was sent to this

photo-shoot via a male agent... In London? In London. That has got a

bit of a reputation and I think she did tell me on Sunday that he found

out that the studio was fake two days after she had gone missing and

my argument on that as working in the industry if you can find that

out after she is missing why could you not find it out before sending

her because he was able to access that information that the studio was

fake. We don't know if that's true. Who told you that? Chloe told me on

Sunday that it was a fake set-up and the studio didn't exist. I think she

believed she was going to a studio for a photo-shoot. She believed it?

Yes. Understood. Again, without naming names, what mistakes did she

make as a young glamour model, you know, getting involved in this

photo-shoot because there are dos and don'ts, aren't there? I would

say, the person that she has dealt with is, I would listen to advice

from other girls and be aware and always have your guard up. I would

never travel to a foreign country alone, not knowing where I'm going

until that is like established that everything is legit and real. And in

the glamour modelling world would you, is it all right for a male

agent or a male photographer to arrange this kind of thing? It

happens all the time. Does it? It happens all the time. Girls are

desperate for fame. They believe anything, you know, come and do a

shoot. Me being a little bit older and wiser, I would have someone

beside me. When I used to model I would take somebody with me. I feel

uncomfortable going to meet a male photographer in a location and doing

a shoot. That's not my comfort zone. There are a number of people who

think something about this story doesn't add up. That it feels a bit

fishy. What would you say? That's such a hard one, Chloe being a

friend of mine. I just think, Chloe is a good girl. A little bit naive.

Could she be misled? I just don't want to say to be honest? She,

obviously she has grown up to when I knew her from the beginning at 15.

She is now a 20-year-old woman, but if anything happened like that, I

would say she was misled. Did she always, because you first did a

commercial shoot with her when she was 15. Did she always want to get

into glamour modelling? At 15 I remember her saying I want to be a

glamour model, but she had to wait until she was 18. It was always her

goal. Now, she is doing. When you spoke to her on Sunday, she said to

you that she was doing a shoot this week? I believe, again, from what

she said, I believe she was doing a photo-shoot for page three because

we were going to met up today. For a newspaper? For page three, I

believe. Yes. Yes. What do you think of that? Each to their own, maybe it

is her way of coping and to just get back out there. For me, I think that

would be the last thing on her mind, but she has her reasons and maybe it

is her way of dealing with happened to her to just get back out there

and it is her way of coping. You run an agency now. You used to do

glamour modelling yourself. Were you ever treated poorly? I can recall a

situation where I did a photo-shoot with a male photographer, turning up

at a location, didn't feel comfortable from the start and

literally, just took my clothes off, I was wearing, and left all my stuff

and ran. Tell me what made you feel uncomfortable? Just the way the

photographer was acting. He wanted more and I knew it was fishy. It was

just your instinct? It was my instinct to get out of here. This is

not a good situation. When you say he wanted more, more revealing, more

exposure? More exposure. OK. It is a competitive business. It is. All

modelling is. And as you said, people are ambitious. Young women

are ambitious and desperate to get on and get ahead of their rivals,

but you've got to take care, haven't you? You have got to take care.

Safety is first. Nothing is worth risking your life for, no fame,

money, safety is number one. Is there any regulation? Presumably

anyone can set up and be an agent? Anyone can set up and be an agent.

Photographer? Anyone can hide behind a screen. It is the same with dating

websites and social media, I blame, you don't know who is behind that

screen. You can set-up tomorrow and say you are a photographer, come to

my place, do a shoot, take pictures and look professional. So how would

you check that out? I do my research, constant research and if I

had any doubt I would go with my model. Even if it meant flying ot of

the country, I would go with them. You would accompany them? Or send

somebody to chaperone them. Thank you, Carla.

Carla is a close friend of Chloe Ayling. Talking about what she says

Chloe Ayling experienced. Next, a shoplifter in Toronto

who was caught stealing an outfit for a job interview was given

a second chance by the police Constable Niran Jeyanesan was sent

to Walmart to apprehend the 18-year-old for attempting

to steal a shirt, tie and socks. When he arrived, he realised

the offender had been stealing So he released him and

bought him the clothes. We received a call for theft under

where an individual was placed under arrest by a Wal-Mart loss prevention

officer. My partner and I responded and we got to meet the individual

who was under arrest. He had stolen some items from Wal-Mart. After

having a conversation with him, it came to light that he had stolen it,

he has taken the items because he had a job interview. The items that

he had taken were a dress shirt and a tie and he had a job interview on

Tuesday with the service industry and this young person has been

facing his own difficulty in life. He was looking to straighten all

that by providing for his family and trying to get in a job and that came

to light. When we proceeded with the arrest later on, I found out that

this person was actually looking for that job interview and we, I went

and got the shirt and the tie for this individual and after when he

was released it was given back to him so he can attend that job

interview. So you bought the shirt and tie for him and he had stolen it

because he had no way of purchasing it on his own. He is a young guy. He

is 18 years old. Why did you feel so compelled? That's correct. Not every

day that people do things for wrong reasons. This individual didn't have

any resources to go about how he went about it and he stole those

items because he wanted a second chance in life and definitely not as

a police officer we weren't going to stand between him and his second

chance. He doesn't know you did this for him? No, not at that moment, no.

Some people at home will say if he wanted a second chance, why was he

stealing? What do you say to that? Having a conversation with him, he

did not have any resources, anywhere to go, anywhere to go, to go about

this. I think he really wanted to attend that interview and I don't

think he knew how else to go about this. OK.

Constable Niran Jeyanesan's boss has praised his actions saying

arresting him wouldn't be in the interests of anyone

and that it reiterates their goal of being positive role models

Comments on Tasering under-18s. There are calls that the police in

this country shouldn't be able to Taser under-18s. This texter, "I

volunteered to be tasered at a show in the USA. It immediately

incapacitated me, but did it hurt? No. Would I do it again? Absolutely

yes. It is an excellent tactical weapon." Colin says, "We can't chase

kids on mopeds or search them for knives. Why not ban the Taser and

further extend their freedom to be lawless." Daniel, "What will police

do regarding using Tasers on under-18s? Before I used this Taser

on you, how old are you?" Another viewer says, "The same kids that

commit murders and robberies." PG, "How about under-18s not doing

anything to warrant Taser?" Kevin says, "Some 14-year-olds don't look

14. How do police know how old they are?" A viewer says, "Public

confidence will be lost if Tasers are misused and their use isn't

properly scrutinised. We need video evidence. No second firing and no

use on under-18s." The news and sport son the way.

Before that, here is the weather from Simon.

Don't you just love the British Summer Time.

There is some sunshine out there to be found. In South Wales, some sunny

spells here. Also a bit of sunshine towards Scotland and Northern

Ireland. You can see here, but the rainfall is quite heavy at the

moment across the Midlands particularly so towards Lincolnshire

where in Lincolnshire itself it's wellies that are the order of the

day. The rainfall will last for much of the day as well. It is associated

with this weather front here, bringing that area of rain and some

heavy and thundery showers developing across East Anglia and

the South East of England. Further north and west, looking dry and

bright. But for this afternoon, heavy and thundery showers expected

in parts of south-west England through parts of Wales as well.

Particularly so fort south-east of England. Feeling cool here as well.

Temperatures only 13 Celsius in Hull. For north-west England and the

far north of north-east England, something drier and one or two

showers, but sunny spells. Sunny spells and scattered showers

expected for both Scotland and Northern Ireland where temperatures

will be about 15 Celsius or 16 Celsius. Through this evening, those

heavy showers will continue giving a lot of rainfall in a short space of

time. A bit of localised flooding and the rain will continue into the

night as well. Large rainfall totals building up across parts of

Lincolnshire and the Midlands. Further north of Scotland and

Northern Ireland, clear skies here. It could get chilly into the first

part of Wednesday morning. But during Wednesday, we have got this

weather front which is still with us. But look behind me, this area of

high pressure is starting to move in. It's a ridge. It's going to

improve things for Scotland and for Northern Ireland, northern parts of

England and Wales. Some dry, bright weather for much of Wednesday, but

it stays very wet in the South East corner except perhaps around Kent

and east Sussexment here we could see a few heavy and thundery

showers, but still wet in the South East corner. Maximum temperatures

17, 18 Celsius. For Thursday, still starting off with a bit of rain in

the South East, but otherwise, that high pressure, that ridge of high

pressure is with us. So things looking more settled and plenty of

fine and dry weather across the bulk of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

There is that ridge of high pressure. You can see it is now

starting to it is appear as we go into Friday. Another system of

weather fronts moves in throughout the day of the that's going to bring

more rain as we go throughout the day. Showeriout breaks of rain

towards the south and the east, but there will be sunshine initially,

but maximum temperatures about 16 to 20 Celsius. A bit more in the way of

brighter skies and sunshine breaking through in the far north-west as the

rain clears its way south-east wards. Bye-bye.

Hello - it's Tuesday, it's 10 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

The British women from South Asian backgrounds who hide their cancer

or refuse to seek treatment because of stigma.

This reminds me of a woman who came to see us

with a fungal thing, you know, rotten breast,

and it was smelling so much that you couldn't even sit next to it.

I don't know how long she was hiding that.

Experts tell us that some women not seeking treatment early enough

We'll be speaking to them and to one woman who kept her cancer secret.

The parents of two teenage charity volunteers who died

after being swept out to sea tell this programme they're taking legal

action against the charity which organised the placements.

A 19-year-old and 21-year-old died when they were overpowered by fierce

currents off a beach in South Africa.

A serious sickness bug strikes one of the team hotels at the Athletics

Those affected include members of the German athletics team and the

Botswana athlete had to pull out of the 200 metre heat here last night.

With just one gold to their name, can the British team improve on

their medal tally? Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of todays news. The lawyer for a British model

who was allegedly held captive by a gang in Italy has been giving

more details about the case. Francesco Peschi says Chloe Ayling,

who's 20 and from South London, was told by her kidnappers

that she would be sold as a sex He said she was acting under duress

when she was seen shopping with her captor before

she was freed. She was told that people

were there watching her and ready to kill her if she tried anything,

so she thought that the best idea was to go along with it and to be

nice in a way to her captor because he told her that he

wanted to release her. This programme has learned that

a number of UK women from South Asian backgrounds

who have cancer, hide it, because of a perceived

stigma about the disease. Researchers say they're worried that

cultural taboos are leading to more women dying prematurely

in the South Asian community. We've discovered that some

hide their diagnosis from family and friends out of shame and in one

case a woman only sought treatment More than 40 maternity units

in England closed to new admissions at some point last year according

to data obtained by Labour. 42 out of 96 Trusts said they'd shut

wards temporarily on 382 occasions. Labour's blamed staffing shortages

but the Government says that is misleading and closures

are well rehearsed. Police in West London are asking

for help to identify a jogger who appeared to push a pedestrian

into the path of a bus, dramatic CCTV showing the incident

which happened in May. It shows the man running along

Putney Bridge and appearing to push The bus is forced to swerve into

the next lane to aLloyd hitting her. The bus stopped and passengers

tended to the woman An appeal has been launched

for witnesses or anyone who recognises the jogger,

described as white, early to mid 30s with brown eyes

and short brown hair. Anyone with information is asked

to call police or Crimestoppers. Another victim of the 11th

September 2001 attack on the World Trade Center

in New York City has been identified The name of the man

is being withheld at The last time a victim

was identified was March 2015. Only 60% of the victims

of the attack have Exam results in Scotland have been

published this morning. The proportion of A-to-Cs

passes fell slightly from 77.2% to 77% this year,

almost 137,000 candidates receiving their results

through the post today, but more than a third signed up to

get their results by text or e-mail. A man has died after attempting to

swim the English Channel. A coastguard received the call last

night from a support vessel saying the 40-year-old swimmer was in

difficulty. The search and rescue helicopter arrived at the scene

within ten minutes and airlifted the man to hospital but he later died.

He had been roughly half way through the crossing attempt when, according

to Kent Police, he became unwell. That is a summary of the news, more

at 10. 30. An e-mail from a former police officer on the use of Tasers.

I was a police officer for 30 years and was assaulted many times when on

duty by those drunk, high on drugs or who just didn't want to be

arrested. One of the worst assaulted I suffered was from the hands of a

young teenager who didn't want to comply with a reasonable request

while in custody. I couldn't believe the sheer level of violence directed

at me by someone of a young age, how I wish I had been in possession of a

Taser. It could have saved many visits to my GP and an extended

period of sick leave. Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria live

and If you text, you will be charged Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria live

and If you text, you will be charged Here's some sport now with Jess Jess

- it seems a serious stomach bug has affected several of the athletes

there in London - what's the latest We have had the latest in from

public health England who say 30 people associated with the world

athletics hundredships including athletes and support staff have been

affected. Environmental Health have carried out an inspection by say

there is no evidence to suggest that the hotel is the source of this

stomach bug. This all emerged last night when the Botswana athlete

Isaac Makwala pulled out of the 200 metre heat here. It late eemerged it

was due to this stomach bug. Now this has been a massive talking

point here this morning as the details have come in. Athletes from

at least four nations have been affected. The former javelin star

Steve Backley spoke to us about this. I'm sure they'll get to the

bottom of this and understand what has caused it. But it's a bit of a

concern for the organising committee for London. It's not great, it's not

what we would have wanted and hopefully it's squashed quite

quickly. We'll talk to public health England before 11 this morning. Is

there a sense of disappointment amongst British fans because of the

lack of medals, one medal and the sort of near misses from British

athletes? Yes. This is not where the British team would have wanted to be

as we reach the half way point on day five. Many missed opportunities.

Katrina Johnson-Thompson we hoped might have won a heptathlon and that

wasn't meant to be. And Laura Muir in the women's 1500 metre final, she

just missed out on that bronze and then heartbreak as well for Sophie

Hitchon in the hammer final, she fought back tears when she realised

she could only finish in seventh position. The British team will

certainly be hoping for a much more successful time of it tonight.

There's only one Brit going in a final. That's Kyle Langford in the

men's 800 metres. Coverage gets under way on BBC Two with Gabby and

the team from 6. 30 tonight, Victoria. Thank you very much.

Experts are warning that some British South Asian women

are reporting cancer later than other British ethnic groups

Researchers have told this programme they're worried cultural stigmas

and taboos are leading to more women dying prematurely in

We've learned that some women even hide their diagnosis from family

Our reporter Amber Haque bought you the full story an hour ago -

Praveena stumbled upon a lump in her breast when she was 36.

She grew up in a strict Indian community where even talking about

this disease was deemed shameful. When she was diagnosed,

she decided to hide it. So a lot of it, in terms

of not telling my family, I didn't tell them because I just

thought if people hear the fact that I've got cancer

they're going to think it's Pooja is lead researcher

from a team called CLAHRC, who are funded by a research arm

of the NHS and they work with public and professionals

on health inequalities. She's spent the past few years

looking at attitudes towards cancer She is worried by some of the things

she's heard. When it came to South Asian women,

there were some specific issues that actually were raised

within this work. For example, there was more

of an issue around shame, Also about the influence

from the males in the family and elders in the family,

and if they didn't think that women should be going for screening,

they wouldn't go for screening. What are some of the more shocking

misconceptions you've They would hide the shame,

in their eyes, of having a cancer diagnosis, because they felt it

would influence their The reluctance to go

for a smear is that you don't From the husband, it is

deemed to be, like you're When it came to going for smears,

it was about women losing their virginities by having

the smear test, and then again not It's hard to say just how

serious the problem is, because very little information has

been collected on ethnicity Research we do have has shown Asian

women with breast cancer have poorer survival,

and they're more likely to present with advanced tumours

when they do get diagnosed. Experts tell us they're concerned

the cultural stigmas are leading to more South Asian women dying.

I worked in the cancer field for many years.

Unfortunately, women who do not examine their breasts, they're

presenting late. And this reminds me

of a woman who came to see us with a fungal thing,

you know, rotten breast, and it was smelling so much that

you couldn't even sit next to it. I don't know how long

she was hiding that. She was a young lady

with young children, you know, but because she couldn't share

that with anyone. And how often do you hear that women

feel like they can't share it Let's talk now with Madhu Agarwal,

NHS cancer support manager and chair of Cancer Equality,

Iyna Butt who kept her breast cancer diagnosis hidden from some

of her family and Sadia Habib Welcome all of you. Inya, you were

diagnosed in 2015 aged 30 and they found a lump as big as a golf ball.

What did you say to your family? I think the first thought that came to

my mind when the oncololgist said you have cancer was how do I tell my

parents. My husband was with me. I never thought about anything else

other than, why couldn't I tell my parents. What was in your mind then?

I think because I had my own child and the thought of telling my

parents that their child has got cancer and when you hear the word

cancer, you imagine death. There's nothing else that you think of. To

have to think of the worst scenario, to have to tell my parents was

horrible. I didn't want to do it. No. But there might be a number of

people who could relate to that, you don't want to tell your parents

because you don't want to mention dying, but what about the South

Asian community? They don't talk about it, it's not the norm to talk

about cancer, especially when I was told I had breast cancer, to say the

word breast isn't normal in the Asian community. You can't even say

the word, let alone checking your breasts? Far from it. Why? I think a

woman's part within an Asian community, her role is so heavy,

you're a mother, a daughter, a daughter-in-law, a wife. You're

there to protect everybody, so when you get told you've got cancer, you

are in that weak position where you can't afford to be in. You need to

lift up the family and support them, not the other way around. I think

there is a lot of burden Asian women carry within the community. What

kind of things did family members say to you when you told them? Oh,

God, I heard all sorts. Some I heard during my treatment, some I heard

after that my family told me, things they'd heard from people, things

like wear a black bra and it will make the cancer going away. I heard

things like, you must have done something wrong in your life and you

have been opinion Nished by God, pray more, do more by religion and

it's a punishment. I heard things like, don't have the treatment done,

just pray and you will be fine, you don't need to go ahead -- you're

being punished by God. Madhu we heard you talk about a patient who

let her breast rotten before she sought treatment. That is

unbelievably distressing and very sad? It's a horrifying experience.

She would have been alive if she'd gone to the GP at the right time.

The problem is, we, when we talk about breast awareness, we only

think about a lump in the body. That's not true. There are other

symptoms you need to look out for too. That is what is important. A

lump is one of them, the other is, you take the screening, the

mammogram and that shows up the abnormalities. What would stop a

British Asian woman going for a mammogram?

Raez Another family member might have opened the letter. How are they

going to tell the family that this is where they are going? It could be

job related. They might not be in a permanent job. There are multiple

issues. You cannot say this is the prime reason. What's the job got to

do with going for a mammogram? They can't lose the money. They are not

able to work. OK. What is the message that you need to get out to

people because of the barriers that are erected for some women in the

South Asian community in Britain? We need to encourage women to

particularly go for their screenings as well. So their breast or cervical

or smear test as they're known and we need to be working on the ground

at grass root level to dispel some of the myths and beliefsment I can

say that I have come across anecdotal evidence that reflects

what your guests are saying. There is a lot of stigma attached to

cancer. The cancer word isn't mentioned. In some cases I heard

that the community thinks it is contagious or that you can catch it

and also you know that you may have sinned in your life which is the

reason why you're being punished. And the multiple roles that South

Asian women plays within our home. She is the backbone of our family.

For that reason, sometimes it is the fear factor. What if it is cancer,

if I have a symptom or I go for my smear test, what if they find

abnormalities. If you don't seek help or don't check your breasts

then you may end up dying so you will be no use to your family after

all anyway? That's what we are trying to reinforce. Early detection

and prevention is important in cancer. This common belief within

the South Asian communities that cancer means death, you know f

somebody is not going for their cervical screening and potentially

if there are abnormal cells they can go on to develop cervical cancer.

That would be in most cases diagnosed at a late stage if they

have not been going for their smears which means a poor prognosis, a poor

outcome leading to losing their lives and it almost becomes a self

fulfilling prophecy within the community when somebody passes away

from cancer that cancer means death. It becomes a vicious circle where

fear becomes more widespread and a denial of talking about cancer. It's

quite rife within the South Asian communities.

Cancer does mean death for some of us. But half of us will survive.

Those are the facts. Scottie on Facebook says for example, "This is

ignorance rather than citying marred." I would probably say that,

I mean, we do have cases where women are in denial as well. We know that

they are probably well educated and they do know about the importance of

going for their screenings and what it can mean if they don't, but it's

about trying to tackle the fear that's inside them and it's a

multiple number of reasons as well. We have women for example who are

very well educated on HPV and its link to cervical cancer. I have come

across a lady who knows everything about it. Is a fray frayed to go for

a smear and one of the reasons, the main reason for her in the past she

was sexually abused and as a result, that acted as a barrier for her to

come forward because it's hardly talked about even within the South

Asian community, she had not talked about it to anybody at all. So, it's

about trying to tackle some of those fears that exists out there for a

until of reasons. Briefly, finally, how are you now? I'm very well. I

have injections on a monthly basis which is quite difficult, but I'm on

the mend. Good. That's really good to hear. Thank you. Thank you all of

you very much. Thank you. You can read more about that story

on the BBC News site. He was hailed a hero after stopping

a worldwide cyber attack that affected the NHS,

but now Marcus Hutchins has been charged for creating

a separate cyber attack. We'll speak to an expert

who has worked with Mr The 17-year old girl whose case

prompted a senior judge to say the state would have "blood

on its hands" if suitable mental health provision was not found,

will be moved to a psychiatric She had been scheduled to be sent

back into a community setting because of a shortage of beds,

but she has made several Simon Rowbotham has been

appointed by the court So you are independent looking at

the best interests for girl X. Thank you very much for talking to us. How

did this case end up in the courts? Well, the history of the case is

quite long. It started off as a child protection matter. There was a

big hearing last year when X had to be placed in Scotland because there

were no secure beds available in England or Wales. Then it has come

back to court twice this year because she now needs a clinical

setting and there wasn't a bed for her. So it's quite a complicated

case and it's a long case and it's a pretty sad one as well. She has been

in this secure unit, I wonder if you can describe that for our audience?

So just to be clear, she was in a secure unit. She is now in a secure

unit that is actually part of a criminal sentence that she is under

detention and training order. At the moment, and she tends to be quite

isolated. I would urge people to always read judgments, but

particularly the June judgment because at the end the judge took

the time to set out in a lot of detail what the arrangements are at

the moment, but it is a bedroom with a mattress that's been stripped

away. She doesn't have any personal items. There is no carpets and that

is all because at the moment any items that she has, she tries to

harm herself or kill herself with. OK. And what are her needs? We don't

know. At the moment, at the moment the needs that we're trying to

address are the day-to-day needs of stopping her harming herself and

that involves all the measures that I've just discussed, it involves

restraint. The reason she needs the clinical setting is so that we can

find out what she needs. We don't know why she is trying to harm

herself. We don't know why she has expressed a wish to kill herself. We

need to get it into the clinical setting to start those assessments

and once those assessments are completed hopefully we will have a

better idea of what X's needs are and what treatment she needs moving

forward. Right. And I wonder if the judge hadn't spoken out and spoken

out in these terms, you know, State could have blood on its hands, would

Girl X have remained in a non clinical setting? Well, it's

difficult to say. Certainly, it has helped. We don't know is the

reality, but I know that the judge in his judgment yesterday expressed

some pessimism that we have A, got the result as quickly as we got, or

B, got it to the full extent that we've got. It's a sorry state of

affairs that we asked and asked and that clinicians on the ground were

clear as to what X needed and it has taken this to get it. The evidence

at the moment would have suggested that had it not had the public

interest that it has had and had the judge A, not been the most important

family judge in the country and B, had such a widely published

judgment, had none of that happened, we don't know where we would have

been. But the reality is on 14th August, next Monday, she has to

leave the placement and time is running tight and I mean this is

right up to the wire and it didn't need to be. The fear was that she

might attempt to take her life again? That's right. If she doesn't

have the right care around her and that care is stopping her taking her

life. If she didn't have that care, there is a very high risk that she

would have done and the only reason she won't z wouldn't have that care

is because the resources aren't there. It is from that prospective,

it is my understanding, that it is why the judge made the comments they

did, we as society, everybody must take responsibility for what we are

willing to fund and what we are not willing to fund and if she killed

herself it would have been because of lack of resources and we would

have had blood on our hands to use the judge's words.

This morning, in an exclusive interview, the parents of two young

charity volunteers who died after being swept out to sea tell

this programme they're taking legal action against the charity

19-year-old Alice Barnett and 21-year-old Summer Robertson

died when they were overpowered by fierce currents off

They were enjoying the last few days of a ten week charity placement

working with deprived young people in a South African township.

This morning both families have agreed to talk to you in their first

television interview together about what happened

to their daughters and why they've come to this decision.

Let's talk to Alice's mum Suzie Barnett and her dad

Pete Gallagher and Summer's mum and dad Sarah and John Robertson.

Thank you very much for coming on our programme. I wonder if I could

ask you first of all to talk to our audience about your daughters. I

don't mind who goes first. Summer was a typical 21-year-old daughter.

She had heard an advert for this charity expedition to South Africa.

She had never done anything like that before and decided that it was

something she'd like to do. She took ten weeks unpaid leave from her job

to go and do this and it is not something you could just turn up and

do, they had to raise X amount of pounds themselves to show their

commitment that they wanted to go and do it and this was her first

one. How would you describe her? Summer was a bundle of fun. She was

full of laughter and it is her laughter that we miss most. She was

the heartbeat of our family and it made a humongous dent. How would you

describe Alice? A force to be reckoned with. Six foot tall. Bright

red hair. Incredibly thoughtful. Well-informed and opinionated and

really an amazing sense of what was right and what was wrong and if she

thought something was wrong, she would do something about it, but not

sort of go in blindly. If you questioned her on anything, she

always had an answer and so, she felt very strongly about Animal

Rights campaigns, Human Rights, you know, she had a deeply profound

sense of love and compassion for everything from a butterfly to an

elephant to a person, you know, to her, these were all lives, precious.

Real strong sense of how sacred and precious life is. Was that Port of

Her motivation for this volunteering? Yes, absolutely. Every

single word is spot on. She was the finest example of a human being I've

ever met in my life. I was so proud that she was our daughter. She

wanted to help. Wherever she went, she wanted to help. She would be

quite happy to admit that she hadn't decided what she wanted to do with

the rest of her life, but she was able to sit down and say, "If I can

do something now that changes anything from a community to the

world, why wouldn't I do that? I've got 80, 90 years to decide what to

do with the rest of my life." We backed her all the way. She did a

placement in Cambodia the year before and helped a school out

there, who are still feeling the benefits of that and the following

year decided to go to South Africa. Again with Summer, this was

something she worked hard for herself. You know there, was a

project that she found that financially was something she could

achieve by herself. Work hard. Raise money. Raise wareness for the

project they were going out to support and she felt very strongly

about these sort of gap year programmes that cost a fortune and

really are glorified holidays and then you do a few days of something,

you know, building a wall that possibly will fall down the

following week. That wasn't the route she wanted to take. She saw

through all that and she thought this genuinely is a well

established, well supported project that absolutely know what they're

doing and that was why she was drawn to this project in particular.

Sarah, on, when did you discover that they had been in the sea on the

evening of 4th December 2014 and that they had been... When we had

the knock on the door at 11.30 by two police officers. Going into that

sea wasn't even on their list of itinerary that they were supposed to

be doing. It was a last minute switch by that company. We still

don't know why. We didn't know they were at the coast until we had the

knock on the door. Summer was missed. They came at 11.30, Summer

was missing at sea. Why is she missing at sea? Was she on a boat

trip? Within 15 minutes. Summer had been found. Summer was discovered on

the beach and then all hell broke loose. Just total confusion. And

what we know is that five people waded into the sea that evening. An

area of ocean where there was a rip current and the coroner found that

although the charity, Lattitude had done a safety check, they were

unaware of the risk it could pose and that's really important, I

think, for you to get across to people that this can take you?

It's really important, the project the girls were working on was in a

township in South Africa by the sea. For ten weeks they were in a

township, then they were taken by the charity to this remote beach

location in South Africa. For a debrief wasn't it? Yes, at the end

of their placement. So it wasn't, you can go off and do whatever you

want, this was, for some reason, changed from somewhere that they had

been for their orienteering programme right at the beginning of

the project. It was then changed to this remote beach location where

there was literally the hostel and the beach. That was it. There was a

generic risk assessment for South Africa and within it were contained

certain guidelines. However, moving to a new location, there wasn't a

new risk assessment done. There was no re-enforcement even of the

guidelines, the basic guidelines that were in the initial risk

assessment about beach safety bearing in mind you are taking these

young people now to the beach for four days, and the promises they

made about these risk assessments being safe, taking local advice,

having people on the ground who knew the area and the location, they were

specialists in this field, either they weren't specialists, as they

claimed or there was a breakdown in communication because this vital

information was not passed on to the volunteers.

In fact, to be quite precise, what they said was, we'll always do all

the research necessary, including talking to the local communities.

When anyone else has asked the local members of the community in this

area would you go near the sea, the response is, they laugh at you.

Because they are absolutely aware of the current. No-one would go

anywhere near it. The Department for International

Development told us, The guidelines have changed now as a

result of what happened to your daughters, and people have to wear

life jackets. The rules were already in place, that you didn't use

unsupervised beaches, that's where they took them. Very specifically

don't swim in unsupervised locations, in dawn and dusk and seek

local advice was in the guidelines but it wasn't communicated to the

volunteers. Also the country manager was the one who took them with him

into the sea. The person who showed them... We don't know specifically

he did that, he definitely Waded in to the sea, he was one of the five?

He was the first one in. That's documented on the inquest. VSO chair

of trustees, statement: The loss of the two young lives was a terrible

tragedy and the grief suffered by their families must be unimaginable.

We are committed to enshiring they have a full and accurate

understanding of what happened in this terribly sad situation. The

investigation's been investigated by the coroner. This is the subject of

a legal claim so we are unable to comment further. Can I just correct

you. That is from Latitude, I beg your pardon. And that's very

important. That is why there is no further comment, I do apologise. Can

you explain to our audience why you are taking legal action against the

hairty? It's the only route we have got available to us to try to bring

them to accept that they made mistakes. They've never apologised

for anything. They've not even said sorry. They will not accept any

responsibility. They still believe they've done absolutely nothing

wrong. And we have tried every other way. This really is the last resort

for us. We have spoken to the Health and Safety Executive, the Charity

Commission, to our MPs, we have spoken to DFID and tried everything.

We have tried to talk to them, to Latitude as well, quite early on

when we started questioning things they were telling us about, you

know, we were told it was a freak wave and Pete was contacted by

somebody from Belgium on Twitter who'd read about it in the paper and

said, you know, sent his condolences and said I'm sorry to have to tell

you I don't think it was a freak wave, I think it was a rip current

because he was caught in one with his brother four years previously

and his brother died. That is when we started to question, hang on a

minute, Latitude, we think it was a rip current, did you know about

them. They said no, we had no idea, didn't know about this. The more we

questioned and asked for evidence of this, that and the other, the more

questions we had and we wanted to speak to the manager asking what

went wrong, what happened. We weren't setting ourselves up against

them, we wanted to work with them but the more we questioned them, the

more they shut their doors to us. What do you hope this legal action

will achieve? Well, I think it's very, very important to say that for

two-and-a-half years, we've tried every single avenue possible to

reach any form of resolution. We never wanted to take any legal

action at all. The only reason we agreed to, I suppose ironically in

some people's eyes, is because we were told there's not a chance of

any financial compensation. As soon as we knew that, and we knew that we

couldn't possibly be seen as people who're looking to gain something

except for the good of the cause, we agreed to go ahead. We cannot win

anything financially. So that has swayed our opinion. There's got to

be a point where the company who still to this day won't communicate

properly with us, who still to this day, Suzie and Sarah went in for a

meeting with the board of directors who didn't know the facts, they

didn't know the information of the case and I'm really sorry, my

daughter died, I want you to know every single detail and when you

meet the two mothers, I want you to be able to talk with some form of

knowledge that allows them to know that you've done your work too. So

to actually have to go through all of these stages and to come out at

the other end with a company saying, we really don't think we did

anything wrong, it was all in place, well, it wasn't. The coroner's

report says it wasn't. The independent report says it wasn't.

They are both public documents. I would urge people toe read those

documents. We are not making any of this up, we are not exaggerating.

The fact of the matter is, they have never, ever said sorry, they have

never accepted any accountability whatsoever and if you can get by the

paperwork in the first case, why can't you get by that paperwork in

every other case? So, as was brought up earlier, which is a great for

instance, we are come up time and time again against, well I'm ever so

sorry, I know you have got a strong point but this happened in South

Africa it's out of our jurisdiction, so what's the point of having health

and safety rules and regulations, having a dirty great big government

stamp on the front of your company's document, we are supported by the

government and then none of those things mean anything because it's

out of our jurisdiction. It's nothing to do with the South African

government and, apparently it's nothing to do with our guys either.

I think it's worth saying that six months or so after it happened, VSO,

the parent company, they got a new CEO and that gentleman, from day

one, has said, what on earth is going on here, we need to get these

four people in and sort everything out with them and he's been

absolutely brilliant. He's remoll Edded everything for us. Phillip

GoodWynn says we are profoundly sorry that Alice and Summer died. We

can't begin to imagine what the last three years have been like for the

family and friends. We recognise that we could have worked with the

parents more constructively in the months immediately following this

accident. We have stayed in close touch with them and we'll always be

available to them. Latitude is no longer a participant in the ICS

programme, ICS being the international citizenship service

programme. And again just to clarify that

point, the reason that Latitude's contract was terminated with the

VCO-ICS programme was as a direct result of what happened. Again, that

is something that Latitude push back on. OK. Phillip GoodWynn changed his

statement and added that in. It's a fact, it's not... So, you know...

Latitude say they weren't fired. Latitude have said nothing has been

their fault from day one, including not apologising for everything. I

would just like to say that from day one, when the incident happened, I

mean we were told we wanted to go out straightaway out there and they

told us there was no point us travelling to South Africa because

you will not be allowed to see your daughter. You will not see her. End

of. We haven't. We have never seen them. By the time they came back to

this country... You were told don't see them? We were told don't see

them. I'm really sorry. The point about the paperwork, the point about

the Latitude response to the coroner's recommendations, I mean we

had to fight to get that verdict, to get a narrative verdict because it

was going to be open-and-shut accident, that's it. It wasn't until

we started investigating that we thought, there's more to this than

the information we are being told. So we had to do the investigation

ourselves and ask volunteers what's happened. We have never been allowed

to communicate with the in-country manager who was responsible for

health and safety and who took them into the sea. We have never been

allowed to communicate with him because Latitude told us he was

traumatised, then he was back at work. Then we had a meeting a year

ago with the Board of Trustees, it was, he doesn't work for us any

more, so we have never spoken to him. We have an awful lot of

information we don't know and probably will never know, but what

we do know is, when we did get that narrative verdict from the coroner,

the coroner, the invest process is not allowed to apportion blame.

They're very, very clear on this what you can and can't say. You

cannot apportion blame. However, a narrative verdict meant that the

coroner made recommendations. It's issued in cases where things can be

done to prevent further deaths. Latitude responded, the coroner said

in order to prevent further deaths you have to do X, Y and Z and

Latitude said we have put the paperwork in place, ticked the

bobbings. Our point is, you have the paperwork in place that could have

saved Alice and Summer's lives in the initial risk assessment --

ticked the box. We don't know where the breakdown is but it's in the

communication, staff training, something went wrong because that

information wasn't communicated to the volunteers. It wasn't like they

thought oh, we know the sea is dangerous, we know we shouldn't be

going in at this time, we know rip currents will be there but we are

going to do it anyway and take our chances. They weren't given that

information but somebody with them had that information. For whatever

reason, they didn't tell us. It wasn't passed on. Thank you for

talking to us and coming on the programme. Thank you.

Some breaking news to bring you now. Clive Coleman is here, he's our

legal affairs correspondent. What do you know?

This is a very emotive case about a seven-year-old boy. He has a very

rare genetic condition called PKU meaning he can't properly met about

lie protein so he's limited to 12 grammes of protein a day, equivalent

to about three slices of bread. If he eats more than that, he risks

suffering serious brain damage. His case is complicated by the fact that

he also has severe awe Tim, he's -- autism. He's non--verbal. So it's

very, very difficult to regulate his diet. There is a drug that enables

you to met about lie more protein. It's incredibly expensive, costing

about ?100 per day. The NHS consultant treating this little boy,

known only as A in these proceedings, wants him to have that

drug and put in what's known as an independent funding request to NHS

England. They turned it down, initially saying the case wasn't

exceptional. They rode back on that and said that this combination of

PKU and the autism does make the case exceptional but said they

wouldn't fund the drug on the basis that its clinical and cost

effectively hadn't been proven. The family brought a judicial case

review on this and they've won on one of the grounds. The ground

they've won on is that the judge has ruled that that decision not to fund

the drug on the basis that it wasn't clinically or cost effective was

irrational. Mrs Justice Andrews this morning said the decision to decline

this application on the basis that the clinical effectiveness of this

drug/intervention's not been demonstrated by a misinterpretation

of the phrase "clinical effectiveness. " She said if

clinical effectiveness is properly interpreted, the fact that the drug