05/09/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


05/09/2017

A former sex worker calls for the decriminalisation of the industry, saying current laws put women at risk.


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Transcript


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Good morning. Welcome to the programme.

:00:13.:00:14.

Our top story today - North Korea's been accused

:00:15.:00:16.

of "begging for war" by the States as the crisis continues

:00:17.:00:19.

Continuation of the current policy will bring about

:00:20.:00:23.

That has all that North Korea can do is produce weapons that go boom.

:00:24.:00:32.

The abusive use of missiles and his nuclear threats show

:00:33.:00:34.

Is some form of military intervention now inevitable? We will

:00:35.:00:45.

discuss. Plus this programme has been told

:00:46.:00:46.

that at least 20 people who survived or witnessed the Grenfell Tower fire

:00:47.:00:49.

have tried to take their own lives We'll hear from charities

:00:50.:00:53.

supporting the survivors. And as sex workers tell this

:00:54.:01:02.

programme about the violence they have been subjected to from clients,

:01:03.:01:06.

we will hear more called the decriminalisation of the industry.

:01:07.:01:08.

The person just put his hands around my neck and then he keep

:01:09.:01:11.

on pressing with one hand on my throat.

:01:12.:01:13.

They just went with knives and they just took all the money.

:01:14.:01:25.

A full exclusive report in about 15 minutes.

:01:26.:01:34.

Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11am.

:01:35.:01:37.

Throughout the morning the latest breaking news

:01:38.:01:39.

and developing stories - and, as always, really

:01:40.:01:41.

A little later we'll pay tribute to 21-year-old

:01:42.:01:45.

journalist Dean Eastmond, who died of cancer at the weekend.

:01:46.:01:50.

His poignant writing about living with cancer at such

:01:51.:01:52.

His boyfriend and brother will join us after ten.

:01:53.:02:03.

Tweet us, use the hashtag #VictoriaLive.

:02:04.:02:13.

If you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

:02:14.:02:16.

South Korea's Navy has staged a major exercise off

:02:17.:02:19.

the country's east coast - as a show of strength to North Korea

:02:20.:02:22.

It said Pyongyang's forces would be buried at sea in the event

:02:23.:02:27.

The United States has warned the UN Security Council that Kim Jong Un

:02:28.:02:31.

The time has come to exhaust all of our diplomatic means

:02:32.:02:39.

We must now adopt the strongest possible measures.

:02:40.:02:45.

Kim Jong-un's action cannot be seen as defensive.

:02:46.:02:50.

He wants to be acknowledged as a nuclear power.

:02:51.:02:53.

But being a nuclear power is not about using those terrible

:02:54.:02:55.

Nuclear powers understand their responsibilities.

:02:56.:03:00.

Kim Jong-un shows no such understanding.

:03:01.:03:07.

His abusive use of missiles and his nuclear threats show

:03:08.:03:10.

War is never something the United States wants.

:03:11.:03:16.

We don't want it now, but our country's patience is not unlimited.

:03:17.:03:21.

We will defend our allies and our territory.

:03:22.:03:25.

Our China correspondent John Sudworth is in Dandong,

:03:26.:03:27.

on the border between China and North Korea.

:03:28.:03:31.

The Chinese city of Dandong where I'm standing is a very good

:03:32.:03:34.

position from which to contemplate China's role in the

:03:35.:03:36.

If we pan the camera across, you can see just how close the two

:03:37.:03:42.

countries are at this point, connected by the iron

:03:43.:03:45.

And almost all of North Korea's trading goods, as well as its vital

:03:46.:03:51.

crude oil supply, flows across this border.

:03:52.:03:55.

You can see a dilapidated North Korean power station

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on the other side there, a sign of its antiquated

:03:59.:04:00.

Donald Trump's argument, of course, is China could, if it wanted to,

:04:01.:04:07.

choke North Korea into submission by turning off the tap on this

:04:08.:04:11.

lifeline, but when you look at this proximity, you can understand why

:04:12.:04:15.

the Chinese leadership sees things very differently indeed.

:04:16.:04:17.

The idea of pushing North Korea towards regime collapse

:04:18.:04:21.

would bring chaos, instability, factional infighting,

:04:22.:04:27.

the possibility of war in a state that already has its hands

:04:28.:04:30.

on nuclear weapons, which is why Beijing won't contemplate the idea

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It won't contemplate the idea of military action.

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It has insisted all along that the only way to resolve this

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crisis is, as unpalatable to Washington as it may be,

:04:48.:04:50.

is for the US to sit down with North Korea at the negotiation

:04:51.:04:55.

We can now speak to our correspondent Robin Brant,

:04:56.:05:02.

who is monitoring events from the South Korean

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In the last hour the Russian president has said that any new

:05:05.:05:15.

sanctions on North Korea will not make any difference? Vladimir Putin

:05:16.:05:19.

making his position very, very clear, talking at the end of the two

:05:20.:05:24.

taser met in China near to where John is. He has described the

:05:25.:05:33.

prospect of a global catastrophe if the continued military ramping up

:05:34.:05:40.

continues at this place. He has said it is hysterical, and on the issue

:05:41.:05:45.

of further sanctions he says they would be useless and ineffective.

:05:46.:05:50.

That is not an example of unity among, certainly, the permanent

:05:51.:05:56.

members of the United Nations Security Council. There is a divide

:05:57.:06:00.

between Russia and China on one side, the United States on the

:06:01.:06:05.

other. In the middle you have South Korea, this morning South Korea yet

:06:06.:06:09.

again demonstrated its military capabilities with the naval live

:06:10.:06:11.

firing exercise following on from the air force and the Army carrying

:06:12.:06:16.

out similar exercises yesterday, to show the north and anyone else

:06:17.:06:20.

watching what their capabilities are, to defend their country and

:06:21.:06:24.

maybe even attack the north. At the same time this country is led by

:06:25.:06:29.

President Moon, who wants to extend the olive branch to the north and

:06:30.:06:34.

perhaps even look at opening negotiations once again. Thank you

:06:35.:06:35.

very much, Robin Brant. Joanna Gosling is in the BBC

:06:36.:06:37.

Newsroom with a summary This programme has been told that

:06:38.:06:41.

at least 20 survivors and witnesses of the Grenfell Tower fire

:06:42.:06:46.

have attempted suicide. Charities Silence of Suicide

:06:47.:06:48.

and Justice For Grenfell say they base the claim on conversations

:06:49.:06:50.

with those supporting residents, though the BBC has been unable

:06:51.:06:53.

to independently verify the figure. They are calling for better

:06:54.:06:56.

long-term mental health The Brexit Secretary David Davis

:06:57.:06:58.

will face questions in the Commons this afternoon as MPs return

:06:59.:07:06.

to Westminster after He will give an update on last

:07:07.:07:08.

week's third round of negotiations with the European Union

:07:09.:07:12.

as Downing Street promises to One of Britain's the senior

:07:13.:07:28.

counterterrorism officers has warned the terror threat level will remain

:07:29.:07:30.

at severe for at least the next five... Five years.

:07:31.:07:34.

Neil Basu, the national co-ordinator for counter-terrorism policing,

:07:35.:07:36.

described the risk to the UK as an unknown threat in our midst.

:07:37.:07:39.

He warned isolated communities and unregulated schooling

:07:40.:07:41.

in the UK were a breeding ground for extremism.

:07:42.:07:43.

There are currently about 600 active counter-terrorism investigations.

:07:44.:07:50.

A 14-year-old boy is in critical condition in hospital and

:07:51.:07:56.

17-year-old has suffered life changing injuries in a double

:07:57.:08:00.

shooting in London. The Metropolitan Police said there were serious

:08:01.:08:03.

concerns of retaliation and extra officers are on the streets. No

:08:04.:08:10.

arrests have been made. The Met said that they were taken to an east

:08:11.:08:12.

London hospital. A report into whether social

:08:13.:08:13.

services failed a young girl who was murdered by her mother

:08:14.:08:15.

will be published today. Ayeeshia Smith died

:08:16.:08:18.

in 2014 aged 21 months. She had been left in the care

:08:19.:08:19.

of her mother, Kathryn Smith, despite concerns raised

:08:20.:08:22.

by other relatives. The findings of a serious case

:08:23.:08:24.

review will be published at midday. Bangladeshi officials say

:08:25.:08:27.

they are running out of space to accommodate the growing number

:08:28.:08:29.

of Rohingya Muslims fleeing Nearly 90,000 people have left

:08:30.:08:31.

Myanmar since the Army there began Many say they were attacked

:08:32.:08:38.

by troops and Buddhist mobs. Sex workers say they are being left

:08:39.:08:48.

more vulnerable to attack by laws making it illegal for them to share

:08:49.:08:51.

premises for safety. Sex workers who have

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spoken to this programme say laws around brothel keeping

:08:59.:09:00.

force women to work alone in order The sale and purchase of sexual

:09:01.:09:03.

services between consenting adults is legal in England and Wales,

:09:04.:09:07.

but acts such as soliciting They are calling for the whole

:09:08.:09:09.

industry to be decriminalised. Solar storms may have played a role

:09:10.:09:18.

in the fatal stranding of sperm whales last year on the coasts

:09:19.:09:21.

of Britain, Germany, Scientists say the 29 whales

:09:22.:09:24.

were young and free of disease - but their navigational abilities may

:09:25.:09:27.

have been disrupted by the storms, which distort

:09:28.:09:32.

the Earth's magnetic field. Other researchers say the theory

:09:33.:09:34.

is plausible but argue it's That's a summary of the latest BBC

:09:35.:09:36.

News - more at 9:30am. Thank you for your tweets and

:09:37.:09:52.

e-mails, we appreciate them every day, particularly because you have

:09:53.:09:56.

experience of lots of the stories we bring you.

:09:57.:10:00.

We will talk about sex workers and the violence that some are subjected

:10:01.:10:02.

to and what would better protect them in the next few minutes. James

:10:03.:10:07.

says is a gay male sex worker I place myself at risk every day

:10:08.:10:13.

working alone and hotel toilets. The law should protect sex workers, not

:10:14.:10:18.

put them at risk. Your views are welcome, particularly if you have

:10:19.:10:19.

pertinent experience. You can use e-mail, Whatsapp etc.

:10:20.:10:32.

Olly is here, it is been a good international break for the home

:10:33.:10:35.

nations but Dele Alli may be in trouble? Inglot won 2-1 against the

:10:36.:10:44.

bucket to stay top of their group, but Dele Alli might have explaining

:10:45.:10:49.

to do. -- England won. Rashford made a terrible mistake in the first

:10:50.:10:55.

couple of minutes, he gave away the ball and the Slovakian player

:10:56.:10:59.

finished off a lovely ball to him. Eric Dier equalised by half-time,

:11:00.:11:05.

Rashford made amends, a lovely finish. But in the last 15 minutes

:11:06.:11:09.

Dele Alli had just been fouled, did not get a free kick, seems to be

:11:10.:11:14.

flicking the middle finger towards the referee. He was very quick

:11:15.:11:17.

afterwards to say he was just joking with his good friend and former

:11:18.:11:22.

team-mate Kyle Walker, not at the referee at all. We will see a Fifa

:11:23.:11:29.

buy that. What about the manager? I have not seen but I have been made

:11:30.:11:34.

aware of it. Dele and Kyle were mucking about. I don't know what has

:11:35.:11:41.

been visible on the picture, what the angle of the picture was. They

:11:42.:11:46.

have a strange way of communicating, the pair of them, but that is what

:11:47.:11:52.

they have said when I have raised it. I have not seen it myself.

:11:53.:11:57.

They were making light of that last night, we will see what the

:11:58.:12:03.

referee's report will say. England need two points from their last

:12:04.:12:07.

couple of matches next month against Slovenia and Lithuania.

:12:08.:12:11.

Good news for Scotland and Northern Ireland, finishing second?

:12:12.:12:14.

It is all in Scotland's hands to finish second behind England in the

:12:15.:12:18.

same group. They beat Malta last night, is very easy win for

:12:19.:12:22.

Scotland, Christophe Berra and Leigh Griffiths got the gold is at Hampden

:12:23.:12:27.

Park. Slovakia and Slovenia away. Winds will see the Scots finish

:12:28.:12:30.

second and a chance of making the play-offs. It is in their hands. It

:12:31.:12:38.

is very complicated as to how... You finish second and get into the

:12:39.:12:42.

play-offs or not. We know Northern Ireland have finished second in

:12:43.:12:47.

group C, getting the runners-up spot, making it five in a row in

:12:48.:12:51.

qualifying. They should be one of the best runners-up or two games to

:12:52.:12:55.

play, Jonny Evans and Chris Brunt got the goals, a lovely free kick

:12:56.:12:59.

seeing them beat the Czech Republic last night. It has been two years

:13:00.:13:05.

since they conceded a competitive goal at Windsor Park. That will be

:13:06.:13:09.

tested against Germany next month, but as I say they are sure to finish

:13:10.:13:14.

second. Germany coming here, it would be

:13:15.:13:17.

nice to take an extra point. If we need something in the final two

:13:18.:13:22.

games we will have to get it, that simple. We are in a very strong

:13:23.:13:27.

position, it is almost -- almost been flawless, to be honest. Seven

:13:28.:13:30.

clean sheets in eight games, the only defeat away to Germany. As a

:13:31.:13:45.

coach and manager there is little you can ask more from your players,

:13:46.:13:48.

they keep delivering. Northern Ireland punching above their weight

:13:49.:13:49.

on the international stage. Wales play Moldova, they could move to

:13:50.:13:52.

second of the Republic of Ireland slip up against Moldova.

:13:53.:13:58.

Roger Federer and Rafa Nadal play tomorrow in the tennis, on a

:13:59.:14:02.

collision course for a semifinal. X Factor plays one Martin Del Potro.

:14:03.:14:07.

The Russian teenager Andrey Rublev is has set up a quarterfinal against

:14:08.:14:12.

Nadal, the 19-year-old came through overnight after beating ninth seed

:14:13.:14:17.

David Goffin. Would you believe it, here's the first teenagers and Andy

:14:18.:14:22.

Roddick in 2001, to make it this far in the men's straw. It is all about

:14:23.:14:30.

Nadal or Federer, who comes through the semifinal. Thank you. More sport

:14:31.:14:32.

throughout the morning. In the UK, thousands of people sell

:14:33.:14:43.

sexual services for money. It is not illegal to sell sex, but almost

:14:44.:14:47.

every activity associated with the trade, from brothel keeping to

:14:48.:14:51.

soliciting, is. So many women and some men, faced with the prospect of

:14:52.:14:55.

being charged with an offence, take risks to avoid being caught.

:14:56.:14:59.

This can leave them vulnerable to attacks and violence and often too

:15:00.:15:04.

frightened to report what has happened to the police.

:15:05.:15:07.

Arguments about decriminalisation are as old as the industry itself,

:15:08.:15:14.

but after rigged recommended a change in the law last year,

:15:15.:15:17.

campaigners are stepping up their efforts. Susie, not her real name,

:15:18.:15:21.

is a former sex worker and activist. She has made a film for you arguing

:15:22.:15:25.

that decriminalisation of the industry is key to making sex

:15:26.:15:26.

workers safer. And in the time of the service,

:15:27.:15:32.

the person just put his hands around my neck and then he keep

:15:33.:15:39.

on pressing with one hand on my throat and keep on punch me

:15:40.:15:42.

into the face until I passed out. Five or six different guys just came

:15:43.:15:52.

inside of the house. The security opened

:15:53.:15:56.

the door for them. And then they just went with knives

:15:57.:16:02.

and they just took all the money. I have worked in the sex industry

:16:03.:16:20.

on and off in my adult life. There's a perception that sex work

:16:21.:16:33.

is inherently degrading, that it's morally wrong,

:16:34.:16:42.

but when you look at it compared to the other low paid, long hours,

:16:43.:16:45.

incredibly physically demanding jobs, it's often the best choice

:16:46.:16:49.

for people because it is less hours for more money,

:16:50.:16:55.

means you can have more time out to be with your children,

:16:56.:16:58.

be with your family, do your studies, change your life,

:16:59.:17:00.

than you would if you were working a 40-hour plus week

:17:01.:17:04.

for minimum wage. According to one estimate,

:17:05.:17:10.

there are nearly 73,000 sex There's no doubt that some of those

:17:11.:17:12.

people are coerced into selling sex. In 2014, for example,

:17:13.:17:22.

there were 1,139 victims of trafficking for sexual

:17:23.:17:25.

exploitation in the UK. But, to be clear, this

:17:26.:17:28.

film isn't about people who are coerced into prostitution

:17:29.:17:33.

against their will. It's about people who have made

:17:34.:17:35.

a decision to work in the sex industry and how the law often fails

:17:36.:17:38.

to protect those people. In the UK, the sale

:17:39.:17:44.

and purchase of sexual services But almost everything

:17:45.:17:47.

around it is illegal. There's a variety of offences

:17:48.:17:55.

you can been charged There's loitering and soliciting

:17:56.:17:57.

which are most often used And brothel keeping,

:17:58.:18:01.

which is used against indoor-based sex workers and there's also

:18:02.:18:06.

something called prostitute's caution where a police officer

:18:07.:18:08.

can serve you a caution without you having to accept it

:18:09.:18:11.

and it will stay on your record if they suspect you of being

:18:12.:18:15.

a sex worker. The rules against brothel keeping

:18:16.:18:22.

in particular mean that women often feel unable to work together

:18:23.:18:24.

as a common-sense safety measure, which inevitably leaves sex

:18:25.:18:27.

workers more vulnerable. I'm Maria from Portugal.

:18:28.:18:33.

I'm a sex worker. Maria, not her real name,

:18:34.:18:41.

says she was working with a group of women at a brothel in London

:18:42.:18:45.

when she became the victim I was in a house working with a few

:18:46.:18:48.

different girls and then five or six different guys just came

:18:49.:18:56.

inside of the house. The security opened

:18:57.:18:59.

the door for them. And then they just went with knives

:19:00.:19:02.

and they just took all the money. And they were not really violent,

:19:03.:19:12.

but it was really scary. After they left, I just make sure

:19:13.:19:18.

that the door was closed, so I went close the door and I went

:19:19.:19:21.

to my room straight away The police arrived soon

:19:22.:19:24.

after to investigate but Maria explained that the police seemed

:19:25.:19:31.

to be as interested in the work going on the premises

:19:32.:19:34.

as in the robbery itself. They weren't interested

:19:35.:19:36.

in the robbery. They said they would look

:19:37.:19:39.

on CCTV, the cameras. They asked about the

:19:40.:19:43.

guys that went there. But actually, they were talking more

:19:44.:19:48.

about the work inside of the place, how much money they got,

:19:49.:19:51.

how many girls, how many customers. A week later after the robbery,

:19:52.:19:57.

she received a letter from the police threatening

:19:58.:20:00.

the women working at the premises. This letter was saying

:20:01.:20:04.

that we should definitely leave. They didn't say that we need

:20:05.:20:09.

to leave the place, but if you stay there you could go to jail or be

:20:10.:20:15.

deported or something, because we were working

:20:16.:20:17.

as they say in a brothel. Maria explained that it

:20:18.:20:27.

is for precisely this reason that sex workers

:20:28.:20:29.

are often reluctant to report violent crime to the police for fear

:20:30.:20:31.

of being investigated themselves. So the girls don't call the police

:20:32.:20:34.

because if they call the police, the police will just see the place

:20:35.:20:40.

that they are working and they will say to leave or something

:20:41.:20:48.

and they can't keep working She told us that because violent

:20:49.:20:50.

criminals know sex workers are unlikely to report those kinds

:20:51.:20:58.

of crimes, they deliberately target I was hearing from different girls

:20:59.:21:00.

that they get robbed in a house, the same story with five or six men

:21:01.:21:05.

and then they were with knives, sometimes with guns and acid,

:21:06.:21:09.

and they just was hitting the girls, raping the girls, so I knew

:21:10.:21:12.

that it was happening, but I was not sure it

:21:13.:21:14.

would happen with me. I'm originally from Romania.

:21:15.:21:30.

I'm a sex worker. I've been a sex worker

:21:31.:21:33.

for the last five years. I've been working

:21:34.:21:35.

in Soho ever since. Suzanne, once again not her real

:21:36.:21:40.

name, has an even more Like many sex workers,

:21:41.:21:43.

Suzanne says that sex work It offers flexibility

:21:44.:21:50.

and allows her to fund her studies. There is no issue around it

:21:51.:21:54.

as long as you don't get raided by the police

:21:55.:22:00.

or if I don't get violence. She has no objection to the work

:22:01.:22:05.

itself but, like Maria, she's says that the current legal

:22:06.:22:08.

framework leaves her vulnerable. As I've learned being in the sex

:22:09.:22:14.

industry, I learned that a perpetrator will always seek

:22:15.:22:17.

to attack someone who is vulnerable, who is not protected by the law

:22:18.:22:26.

and we, as sex workers, It's illegal for working

:22:27.:22:29.

with someone for safety. And so the perpetrator will just

:22:30.:22:33.

do it because he knows As the police, over time

:22:34.:22:37.

and time again, every time even myself reports

:22:38.:22:45.

violence, I end up getting threatened to be arrested and

:22:46.:22:47.

prosecuted for working in a brothel. And then, next time

:22:48.:22:51.

I suffer violence, I sure It doesn't matter

:22:52.:22:54.

what I do was a job. Yes, I understand I am a sex

:22:55.:23:01.

worker for a living, but I deserve the same human rights

:23:02.:23:04.

as everybody else. Sadly, some years ago,

:23:05.:23:06.

Suzanne was the victim of a violent The person came up, nothing wrong,

:23:07.:23:09.

discussed the price. And in the time of the service,

:23:10.:23:16.

the person just put his hands around my neck and then he keep

:23:17.:23:28.

on pressing with one hand on my throat and keep on punching me

:23:29.:23:32.

to the face until I passed out. I was in agony.

:23:33.:23:36.

I was bleeding from my mouth. During the attack I lost two teeth.

:23:37.:23:40.

The person was there to kill me. That's it.

:23:41.:23:46.

I was lucky because I passed out. If I wasn't going to pass out

:23:47.:23:49.

at the time, he would have done it Fortunately, Suzanne was working

:23:50.:23:53.

with someone that night, her receptionist, who was eventually

:23:54.:23:58.

able to call for medical help. But she believes that,

:23:59.:24:01.

had she been working alone, she might not have

:24:02.:24:03.

survived the attack. If it wasn't for her that night,

:24:04.:24:06.

no one could have woken me up. Because of her experience, Suzanne

:24:07.:24:13.

now feels obliged to work illegally. Even though selling sex for money

:24:14.:24:18.

isn't in itself illegal, by working with just one other

:24:19.:24:22.

person, she could be prosecuted Despite this, she has chosen to be

:24:23.:24:24.

on the wrong side of the law because she believes that's the only

:24:25.:24:30.

way to work safely. I would rather work

:24:31.:24:34.

illegally but go home safe. I know how the legislation

:24:35.:24:37.

regarding prostitution, working with someone for safety

:24:38.:24:38.

or sharing the premises But I would rather be

:24:39.:24:41.

prosecuted than dying. I want to go home.

:24:42.:24:49.

I have a family myself. They don't know what

:24:50.:24:51.

I do for a living. But, if anything happens to me

:24:52.:24:56.

and they find out the way I've died or being severely injured,

:24:57.:24:59.

they are going to have to find out, I think from my own experience

:25:00.:25:02.

what I do know is that often women go into sex work because it's

:25:03.:25:18.

a better choice. Nicky Adams from the English

:25:19.:25:22.

Collective of Prostitutes, a campaigning organisation of sex

:25:23.:25:27.

workers and former sex workers that's been in existence

:25:28.:25:30.

since the 1970s, explains that, far from these being marginal

:25:31.:25:32.

concerns, the same grievances You know that by going into sex

:25:33.:25:34.

work, you are taking a risk because there is a lot of violence

:25:35.:25:43.

and that is a primary At every turn, the laws,

:25:44.:25:45.

the prostitution laws, sabotage our efforts to keep safe,

:25:46.:25:51.

so it illegal to work If you work together

:25:52.:25:53.

with somebody else on the street, you're much more likely to come

:25:54.:26:00.

to the attention of the police. You suffer anti-social

:26:01.:26:04.

behaviour orders. On the street, which then,

:26:05.:26:07.

if you breach them, You can be prosecuted for brothel

:26:08.:26:09.

keeping just literally for working together with another woman,

:26:10.:26:15.

and we have heard of many, many situations where women come

:26:16.:26:17.

forward to report violence and instead of the attackers

:26:18.:26:19.

being pursued and investigated and prosecuted by the police,

:26:20.:26:23.

sex workers get prosecuted for prostitution offences instead

:26:24.:26:28.

and that is appalling, because when that happens,

:26:29.:26:30.

word goes around very quickly and it's a big deterrent for anybody

:26:31.:26:33.

else to come forward In 2016, a group of MPs

:26:34.:26:35.

on the Home Affairs Select Committee recognised the problems resulting

:26:36.:26:44.

from brothel keeping legislation But shortly afterwards

:26:45.:26:46.

the government decided they didn't have enough evidence

:26:47.:26:54.

to introduce the changes. We spoke to the Home Office for this

:26:55.:27:02.

film and a spokesperson told us that the government still has no

:27:03.:27:05.

plans to change the law around prostitution

:27:06.:27:08.

despite the Home Affairs Select At the moment, even though

:27:09.:27:10.

sex work isn't illegal, we work in a heavily criminalised

:27:11.:27:19.

environment where many people are far too scared to go

:27:20.:27:22.

to the police or go to other The thing that sex workers want is

:27:23.:27:25.

full decriminalisation of sex work. What that means is treating it

:27:26.:27:32.

just like any other job. For example, if you're working

:27:33.:27:36.

in a brothel and you have a manager who helps work out shifts and deal

:27:37.:27:41.

with customers and pay the rent, then if they begin sexually

:27:42.:27:44.

harassing you, you could go to the police and

:27:45.:27:46.

report them for this. You could take them to court

:27:47.:27:50.

and have them charged But as long as the law continues

:27:51.:27:52.

to act as an incentive to unsafe working practices,

:27:53.:27:56.

more sex workers like the women we've heard from in this

:27:57.:27:59.

film will be at risk "Prostitution is a complex area

:28:00.:28:01.

and there is not a single solution. Since 2012 we have developed strong

:28:02.:28:19.

working relationships with a number of sex worker support agencies

:28:20.:28:21.

and begun to change the way we work A viewer says, "We know this.

:28:22.:28:38.

Prostitution should be legalised to safeguard both workers anduresers.

:28:39.:28:42.

Let's be adult about it." This text from someone who doesn't give their

:28:43.:28:46.

name, "Decriminalisation will put more sex workers on view on our

:28:47.:28:52.

streets. Selling sex should be illegal." Matt on Facebook says, "We

:28:53.:28:58.

should house sex workers in large buildings like in Germany and other

:28:59.:29:01.

European countries with proper security on the door. Whether people

:29:02.:29:05.

agree with prostitution or not, it is safer for the client and the

:29:06.:29:09.

worker if it's properly regulated." John says, "Sex work is an essential

:29:10.:29:17.

part of society and the it Will not get proper protection until members

:29:18.:29:21.

of Parliament grow up and get with the real world."

:29:22.:29:26.

We will talk more about it after 10am.

:29:27.:29:36.

Still to come: A report into the involvement of social

:29:37.:29:38.

services and agencies connected with Ayeeshia-Jane Smith

:29:39.:29:40.

who was stamped to death by her mother has just been published.

:29:41.:29:51.

Tributes are paid to Dean Eashmond who died on Sunday.

:29:52.:30:00.

Joanna Gosling is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:30:01.:30:02.

South Korea's Navy has staged a major exercise of the country's east

:30:03.:30:12.

coast is a show of strength to North Korea following its latest nuclear

:30:13.:30:16.

test. It said Pyongyang's forces would be buried at sea in the event

:30:17.:30:20.

of further provocation. The United States has warned the UN

:30:21.:30:23.

Security Council by Kim Jong Un is begging for war.

:30:24.:30:24.

This programme has been told that at least 20 survivors and witnesses

:30:25.:30:27.

of the Grenfell Tower fire have attempted suicide.

:30:28.:30:29.

Charities Silence of Suicide and Justice4Grenfell say

:30:30.:30:30.

they base the claim on conversations with those supporting residents,

:30:31.:30:39.

though the BBC has been unable to independently verify the figure.

:30:40.:30:42.

They are calling for better long-term mental health

:30:43.:30:43.

The Brexit Secretary David Davis will face questions in the Commons

:30:44.:30:47.

this afternoon as MPs return to Westminster after

:30:48.:30:51.

He will give an update on last week's third round of negotiations

:30:52.:30:55.

with the European Union as Downing Street promises to

:30:56.:30:57.

One of Britain's the senior counterterrorism officers has warned

:30:58.:31:08.

-- One of Britain's most senior counter-terrorism officers has

:31:09.:31:10.

warned that the terror threat level will remain at severe for at least

:31:11.:31:13.

Neil Basu, the national co-ordinator for counter-terrorism policing,

:31:14.:31:16.

described the risk to the UK as an unknown threat in our midst.

:31:17.:31:19.

He warned isolated communities and unregulated schooling

:31:20.:31:21.

in the UK were a breeding ground for extremism.

:31:22.:31:23.

There are currently about 600 active counter-terrorism investigations.

:31:24.:31:25.

A report into whether social services failed a young girl

:31:26.:31:28.

who was murdered by her mother will be published today.

:31:29.:31:34.

Ayeeshia Jane Smith died in 2014 aged 21 months.

:31:35.:31:36.

She had been left in the care of her mother, Kathryn Smith,

:31:37.:31:39.

despite concerns raised by other relatives.

:31:40.:31:42.

The findings of a serious case review will be published at midday.

:31:43.:31:53.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10am.

:31:54.:32:00.

Fifa will wait for the referee's report at Wembley before deciding

:32:01.:32:05.

whether England's Dele Alli should be charged with making an obscene

:32:06.:32:09.

hand gesture. He says it was a joke with the team-mates are not directed

:32:10.:32:12.

at the match official. England came from behind to beat Slovakia 2-1,

:32:13.:32:17.

Marcus Rashford with the winner, to keep them top of the group. Two

:32:18.:32:22.

points in the last two matches will see them qualified for Russia.

:32:23.:32:27.

Scotland beat Malta 2-0, wins in their last two game should put them

:32:28.:32:33.

in the play-off position in England's group.

:32:34.:32:34.

Northern Ireland look very good for a play-off spot, their win over the

:32:35.:32:37.

Czech Republic in Belfast assures them of second place in that group.

:32:38.:32:42.

And the 19-year-old Russian Andrey Rublev has become the first

:32:43.:32:47.

teenagers since 2001 to reach the US open quarterfinals. He plays his

:32:48.:32:50.

childhood hero Rafa Nadal next. Roger Federer also came through his

:32:51.:32:56.

last 16 on March overnight. I will be back in around half an hour with

:32:57.:32:57.

a full update. This programme has been told that

:32:58.:32:59.

at least 20 people who survived or witnessed the Grenfell Tower fire

:33:00.:33:02.

have since attempted We've been unable to independently

:33:03.:33:04.

verify the figure - but have heard it from

:33:05.:33:08.

groups supporting survivors. Almost three months on,

:33:09.:33:12.

it's clear the deeply traumatic effects of that night are being felt

:33:13.:33:15.

not just by those who lived in the tower but their relatives,

:33:16.:33:19.

neighbours and friends. Yvette Greenway runs

:33:20.:33:24.

the Silence of Suicide charity, which has been offering support

:33:25.:33:26.

for trauma victims in the area. And Judy Bolton is a nurse who's

:33:27.:33:31.

been co-ordinating volunteers on the ground on behalf

:33:32.:33:33.

of the Justice4Grenfell group. Welcome, both of you. Thank you very

:33:34.:33:46.

much for coming into the programme. Yvette, you have met a number of

:33:47.:33:51.

survivors and help them, what kind of problems that they are

:33:52.:33:55.

experiencing? Where to start, Victoria? This is the problem. They

:33:56.:34:01.

go from practical everyday issues in relation to benefits, housing, just

:34:02.:34:07.

eating in some cases. Eating? Where they warm up food. Some hotel rooms

:34:08.:34:11.

don't have facilities so they can't heat food if they have it. I say

:34:12.:34:17.

simple things, they are huge things within the bigger picture.

:34:18.:34:20.

Then you have the psychological impact, you have the grieving, the

:34:21.:34:30.

trauma, you have PTSD, anxiety, depression, self harm and, sadly,

:34:31.:34:35.

suicide. And how do you respond to this figure that at least 20 people

:34:36.:34:41.

have attempted to take their own lives?

:34:42.:34:44.

I think, like everyone in the country, we sincerely hope that is

:34:45.:34:49.

not the case. One suicide is too many. From a situation that should

:34:50.:34:54.

never have arisen, that was completely preventable, it makes it

:34:55.:35:00.

even more tragic. We just hope it is not true. It is very difficult to

:35:01.:35:05.

verify this information, but we put it out there because even if it is

:35:06.:35:10.

just one suicide, it is one too many and it means that somewhere along

:35:11.:35:14.

the line something is failing, we are not reaching those people

:35:15.:35:17.

properly, the people that need help, so we desperately need to address

:35:18.:35:21.

that. Judy, you have been a nurse for a

:35:22.:35:25.

long time, what do you think about the mental health provision for

:35:26.:35:27.

helping those who have survived and witnessed what happened that night?

:35:28.:35:31.

About the mental health provision has been appalling. It has been

:35:32.:35:38.

slow, it has not even been recognised. From day one, everybody

:35:39.:35:46.

saw it on the news, how horrific this atrocity was, there was a lot

:35:47.:35:51.

of help from the community, but it was almost like it was put to the

:35:52.:35:59.

side. Yet at that time, people watching on TV were shocked and

:36:00.:36:05.

could not believe it. You try living that, people not even just from the

:36:06.:36:11.

tower but from the Lancaster West walkways, people who live there,

:36:12.:36:14.

they saw the tower burn. You don't get that out of your mind. People

:36:15.:36:20.

saw others jump from Windows, children being dropped from Windows.

:36:21.:36:25.

And not every child that was dropped was caught. So we live with that

:36:26.:36:33.

every day. You see the building, you see Grenfell, it is fair on the

:36:34.:36:39.

horizon, we live with it. The fact that people had to ask and come

:36:40.:36:47.

out... Later, Theresa May had gold command, which was many weeks after.

:36:48.:36:55.

What survivors were told to do was to present themselves at the West

:36:56.:37:00.

ways to say they feel that they need mental health support. If you are

:37:01.:37:07.

that traumatised, if you are in a flat or a hotel, isolated, on your

:37:08.:37:14.

own, you don't even know that you need to go and help. And so the NHS

:37:15.:37:22.

team had run out and they were knocking on doors and leafleting and

:37:23.:37:27.

saying that they are a bit fed up with this knocking on their doors.

:37:28.:37:31.

So when we have the last public meeting we asked the NHS where are

:37:32.:37:37.

your meeting points, if you are not going to these people, where are

:37:38.:37:42.

they? The head of the team did not know. She said let me speak to one

:37:43.:37:49.

of my junior colleagues. And he said if you go to the website they have

:37:50.:37:58.

said two people... Well, to the GPs, because my GP came to that meeting,

:37:59.:38:03.

the GPs in the area have been told we have covered the mental health,

:38:04.:38:07.

they are seen within five days and once they have had the assessment

:38:08.:38:10.

they are followed up, people should have key and support workers. That

:38:11.:38:15.

information is not getting through. That is why we have people who are

:38:16.:38:21.

attempting suicide, they are living with survivor guilt, with memories

:38:22.:38:29.

of that night. It plays over and over in your head. You do not sleep.

:38:30.:38:37.

Sorry to interrupt but I talked to one man who got out of the tower

:38:38.:38:41.

with his family and he said in the day we see the tower, we see the

:38:42.:38:46.

blackened shell, when I close my eyes at night I see it, I see people

:38:47.:38:53.

jumping. It lives with you. Again, I don't like the term mental health in

:38:54.:38:59.

that it still carries a very ugly stigma even though it should not...

:39:00.:39:05.

We are trying to change that. But even my GP said what they want to

:39:06.:39:09.

call it is bereavement and trauma counselling, because that in itself

:39:10.:39:16.

covers the post-traumatic stress, the self harm, the nightmares, the

:39:17.:39:20.

horrors. We have a really solid mental health team in Ladbroke

:39:21.:39:29.

Grove, we have a hospital, adult mental health, children's mental

:39:30.:39:35.

health. Many of them have said that they presented themselves at gold

:39:36.:39:41.

command and said what can we do? Oh, we have this under control. And it

:39:42.:39:45.

wasn't, and people are still suffering. People are frightened to

:39:46.:39:50.

sleep at night in their building, and so they walk the streets. We

:39:51.:39:54.

have volunteers who will actually be out at three o'clock sitting with

:39:55.:40:00.

people so they are safe. Sorry, they are frightened to be in a building

:40:01.:40:05.

at my time? So they would prefer to wander the streets? Absolutely. My

:40:06.:40:12.

goodness. Because it is that trauma. Also we have had a situation, the

:40:13.:40:16.

police are very much aware, that there has been an influx of drugs

:40:17.:40:20.

coming into the area, because people are so traumatised that some will

:40:21.:40:27.

Self Medicaid. That is not the answer, but I can understand but --

:40:28.:40:34.

some will self medicated. What are they doing to support the crime that

:40:35.:40:38.

is going on, taking advantage of vulnerability and the trauma they

:40:39.:40:43.

are going through. Event, are you seeing the self-medication with

:40:44.:40:49.

alcohol and drugs? It is rife. We have heard from lots of people,

:40:50.:40:52.

groups and volunteers that people are increasingly turning to

:40:53.:40:58.

substance abuse as a way of escaping this horrible reality. It is like a

:40:59.:41:01.

living nightmare, they don't know what else to do. Every time we have

:41:02.:41:06.

reported Grenfell, and it has been many times that we have spoken to

:41:07.:41:11.

many survivors, we have a light on the failings of the mental health

:41:12.:41:17.

provision. To hear that people are still being failed in this crucial

:41:18.:41:22.

area... It is par for the course with mental health, I know you don't

:41:23.:41:27.

like the term, but I think we have to say it in order to be more

:41:28.:41:32.

accepting, this is part of the problem, this stigma. It always

:41:33.:41:39.

takes second place. The ongoing cuts over successive years, people were

:41:40.:41:42.

warning that this would happen. Hey, Ho, we have come to a situation like

:41:43.:41:47.

Grenfell, we don't have the stuff, don't have properly qualified staff

:41:48.:41:54.

or 11 situation to deliver what is needed in this grotesque situation.

:41:55.:42:02.

Even on your show, you did a lot of coverage on people's fears and

:42:03.:42:05.

everything else, but one of the things that the media has done is

:42:06.:42:11.

really demonise the people who live in Grenfell. There has been a lot of

:42:12.:42:15.

rhetoric and talk, even Theresa May spoke on, well, you know, the

:42:16.:42:20.

illegals that are there, please come forward, it will not damage your

:42:21.:42:24.

state, we want to make sure you are safe. In that building was a

:42:25.:42:33.

community. We had Moroccan, Colombian, third, fourth generation

:42:34.:42:36.

Londoners, West Indian, Portuguese, yes, Somalian... We are such a

:42:37.:42:43.

diverse community that works together, but all that was shown was

:42:44.:42:51.

women wearing the hijab, with their children, speaking with non-English

:42:52.:42:57.

accents. We have had racist hate mail, people telling them go back to

:42:58.:43:02.

where you came from, why are you in this area? You yourself covered

:43:03.:43:08.

that, people said we are afraid to say... This is it. All of that

:43:09.:43:15.

brings a really negative image. These are hard-working people, solid

:43:16.:43:21.

in the community. People had bought their properties, nurses, policemen,

:43:22.:43:27.

teachers, all sorts lived there. Why have they been left? Why have they

:43:28.:43:33.

been neglected? Again, it was to do with the social gentrification of

:43:34.:43:39.

the area and also because we are considered lesser human beings.

:43:40.:43:48.

People are suffering. The children especially are incredibly

:43:49.:43:50.

traumatised. They are starting to go back to school and we want to know

:43:51.:43:55.

have the schools been given adequate support to support not the children

:43:56.:44:01.

from Grenfell but children who had their friends who will not be at

:44:02.:44:06.

school this term. How do they support? I think that is a problem

:44:07.:44:11.

for decades to come, there needs to be ongoing mental health provision

:44:12.:44:15.

in place to support these children as they grow older, they will need

:44:16.:44:21.

it, without a doubt. They have really, really failed us. Thank you

:44:22.:44:23.

for joining us. The deputy leader of the council

:44:24.:44:42.

says that the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is dedicated

:44:43.:44:50.

to dealing with this tragedy. There is at dedicated number -- a

:44:51.:45:05.

dedicated number, 0800 0234 650, and on the NHS website that is...

:45:06.:45:19.

We can also reveal this morning that some residents who escaped the tower

:45:20.:45:22.

block that morning on 14th June are finally getting some

:45:23.:45:25.

Whilst most of the flats were totally destroyed,

:45:26.:45:27.

33 flats on the lower floors had limited damage, meaning some

:45:28.:45:30.

This programme can reveal that so far 12 families from Grenfell

:45:31.:45:34.

tower have received property from their old homes.

:45:35.:45:40.

One of those is 69-year-old Rumayatu Mamudu, who escaped

:45:41.:45:42.

from the first floor in her dressing gown carrying her 12-year-old

:45:43.:45:44.

Our reporter Ashley John Baptiste has been following her story.

:45:45.:45:54.

We're at a hotel in West London where some Grenfell survivors

:45:55.:45:57.

are being reunited with personal possessions that survived the fire.

:45:58.:45:59.

We are here with Rumayatu Mamudu, a Grenfell resident who we've been

:46:00.:46:02.

We are here to see some of the items in my flat.

:46:03.:46:21.

How are you feeling about seeing some of the items that have been

:46:22.:46:30.

Yeah? Let's have a look.

:46:31.:46:58.

And these are possessions of Mrs Mamudu's from her

:46:59.:47:05.

You've got your National Insurance card back.

:47:06.:47:38.

Yay! My Gemini stone.

:47:39.:47:45.

It's my birthstone and I made it into a ring.

:47:46.:47:56.

That's good. Yes!

:47:57.:48:01.

Talk to me about why you're so happy.

:48:02.:48:04.

My late husband's watch. Does that not make me happy?

:48:05.:48:07.

So it's been over two months now since you lost your flat.

:48:08.:48:10.

But you have received some of your possessions from the flat.

:48:11.:48:16.

What sort of consolation is that for you?

:48:17.:48:24.

To me, actually, the consolation was that I was alive.

:48:25.:48:28.

I'm happy I got them, but my life was more important.

:48:29.:48:36.

As soon as they start letting me build my life again,

:48:37.:48:46.

then the sooner there will be closure.

:48:47.:48:48.

Even if I got all these things back, there is no closure

:48:49.:48:51.

Even though she has some of her jewellery back,

:48:52.:48:59.

the majority of Mrs Mamudu's possessions remain in the tower.

:49:00.:49:03.

She's just one of 12 families to be reunited

:49:04.:49:05.

with their belongings so far but, for the majority of residents

:49:06.:49:08.

who survived, there's nothing left to be returned.

:49:09.:49:18.

Ashley John-Baptiste with that report and we'll continue to follow

:49:19.:49:21.

the stories of Grenfell survivors over the coming months and years.

:49:22.:49:33.

Next, we're going to turn our attention to what's

:49:34.:49:35.

going on in a country over 5,000 miles away, Myanmar,

:49:36.:49:37.

More than 87,000 Muslim civilians known as the Rohingya are estimated

:49:38.:49:44.

to have fled across the border to Bangladesh in the past ten days

:49:45.:49:50.

The Rohingya are a stateless Muslim ethnic minority who have faced

:49:51.:49:54.

Many of those who have fled describe troops and Buddhist mobs

:49:55.:50:03.

burning their villages and attacking civilians.

:50:04.:50:28.

This is the mainland route through which the Rohingyas are now

:50:29.:50:31.

On the other side of the mountain, is Myanmar.

:50:32.:50:35.

And they say they can slip in without being detected easily.

:50:36.:51:11.

They are carrying with them whatever belongings they can leave with -

:51:12.:51:16.

household goods, and many of them say they have been walking

:51:17.:51:18.

for several days from their villages before they are able to get

:51:19.:51:21.

And, before that, they have to make sure they are not detected

:51:22.:51:29.

by the Myanmar police or border patrols because there is every

:51:30.:51:31.

Once they get here, though, the Bangladesh authorities

:51:32.:51:39.

This is the first real shelter that the refugees have got.

:51:40.:51:56.

We're in first village after the border and here

:51:57.:52:01.

they get a bit of protection from the elements.

:52:02.:52:03.

They are here for a day, maybe two days, before they move

:52:04.:52:13.

That's where the government and aid agencies are present

:52:14.:52:17.

Islamic countries across Asia are calling on the Myanmar

:52:18.:52:38.

government and its unofficial leader Nobel Prize winner,

:52:39.:52:46.

Aung San Suu Kyi, to end the military campaign

:52:47.:52:48.

against the Rohingya Muslim minority.

:52:49.:52:49.

Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh and Indonesia have all demanded

:52:50.:52:51.

Refugees are trapped on the border without basic food

:52:52.:52:55.

and medicine amid operations by the Myanmar military.

:52:56.:52:59.

In the mainly Buddhist Myanmar the Rohingya are seen as Muslims,

:53:00.:53:02.

but in the mainly Muslim Bangladesh they're seen as foreigners.

:53:03.:53:12.

Let's talk to Tun Khin from the Rohingya Muslim ethnic minority.

:53:13.:53:16.

He has family and friends currently fleeing Myanmar.

:53:17.:53:22.

Vivian Tan is working with the two official refugee centres

:53:23.:53:25.

in Cox's Bazar in Bangladesh with the UN Refugee Agency.

:53:26.:53:27.

Mark Farmaner has met Aung San Suu Kyi and spoken

:53:28.:53:29.

about the Rohingya in his role as the director of

:53:30.:53:32.

Welcome all of you. You are from the Rohingya. You moved to the UK 15

:53:33.:53:46.

years ago. Tell us what your family and friends are telling you about

:53:47.:53:52.

what they're experiencing? Yes, they're telling me they have seen

:53:53.:53:58.

military slaughtering men, women and children and they have seen many

:53:59.:54:04.

children being thrown to the fire and also you know many thousands of

:54:05.:54:09.

Rohingya have been trapped in the mountain when they're passing

:54:10.:54:14.

through, a big mountain. It took six or seven days and it is

:54:15.:54:23.

continuously, Rohingya there is mass killings going on against Rohingya.

:54:24.:54:28.

That's what I've been hearing. According to our information, the

:54:29.:54:33.

humanitarian crisis is growing and 170,000 people become homeless and

:54:34.:54:37.

IDPs. They are without food, medical, and shelter. That's what

:54:38.:54:42.

the situation much more worse than now. The humanitarian crisis is

:54:43.:54:48.

growing there. It's quite serious concern I would like to say. Vivian,

:54:49.:54:52.

you're working with two official refugee centres in Bangladesh with

:54:53.:54:56.

the UN Refugee Agency. What have you seen? Well, we're working in refugee

:54:57.:55:03.

camps that pre-existed this influx. OK. These two camps have seen around

:55:04.:55:09.

30,000 new arrivals in the last 12 days or so. That's a huge influx for

:55:10.:55:16.

these two camps. The resources are strained yet we are working the

:55:17.:55:20.

Government and NGOs to accommodate them as best we can to meet their

:55:21.:55:24.

life-saving needs and we are providing temporary shelter and food

:55:25.:55:29.

and medical care for those who need it. But they are in very bad

:55:30.:55:34.

condition as your other guest was saying. They are coming in barefoot.

:55:35.:55:40.

They've walked for days and days. In one case up to seven days. They

:55:41.:55:44.

report that after fleeing their villages, they have to hide in the

:55:45.:55:49.

jungle or in the mountains because they are afraid of being caught and

:55:50.:55:53.

eventually they reach Bangladesh and they were able to seek safety here,

:55:54.:56:00.

but even now, they are scattered. The new arrivals in Bangladesh are

:56:01.:56:03.

scattered in different low cautions. They are in some of the refugees

:56:04.:56:09.

camps where we work and they are in local villages and make-shift sites.

:56:10.:56:12.

There is a need to register them and get a sense of how many new arrivals

:56:13.:56:16.

are where and what their needs are. You met Aung San Suu Kyi. Why is she

:56:17.:56:21.

not speaking out against the persecution of the Rohingya? It's

:56:22.:56:28.

inexplicable her actions and it has disappointed a lot of people. If

:56:29.:56:33.

there was anyone who could have challenged the prejudice against

:56:34.:56:36.

Rohingya Muslims in particular, it's her. When you met her, you raised it

:56:37.:56:42.

with her. What was her response? She said she didn't want to speak out

:56:43.:56:46.

because if she did, she might raise tensions. We felt she didn't really

:56:47.:56:50.

understand the situation of the Rohingya. We encouraged her to go to

:56:51.:56:57.

see for herself, but she refused to do that. Is it to do with the

:56:58.:57:01.

strength of the military? Well, there is a theory... She doesn't

:57:02.:57:07.

want to instruct them to stop? The situation in Burma is strange. There

:57:08.:57:12.

is almost two governments. It was ten years ago, exactly ten years ago

:57:13.:57:17.

when the monks were marching in the streets and in response the military

:57:18.:57:24.

had to reform, but they kind of pulled a fast one, they created a

:57:25.:57:28.

new constitution. There is a democratic Government led by Aung

:57:29.:57:31.

San Suu Kyi, but she only controls things the military don't care b

:57:32.:57:35.

health, education, agriculture. The military are independent and they

:57:36.:57:39.

control the police and Security Services and they are the ones that

:57:40.:57:42.

are carrying out. She couldn't stop these attacks even if she wanted to

:57:43.:57:47.

do, even if she told the military to stop. But she hasn't. She has been

:57:48.:57:54.

acting as a propaganda arm for the military denying abuses are taking

:57:55.:58:00.

place and increasing tensions and fears of Muslims in the country. She

:58:01.:58:05.

gave an interzu in April to the BBC. She said there was not genocide

:58:06.:58:11.

going on, ethnic cleansing was too strong a term to use and she said

:58:12.:58:15.

that the country would welcome any returning Rohingya with open arms.

:58:16.:58:23.

It's simply not true. We have the United Nations has launched an

:58:24.:58:26.

investigation to assess what is going on with the Rohingya and what

:58:27.:58:31.

the military are doing to other ethnic groups in the country, but

:58:32.:58:35.

the UN said it is likely that what is taking place in Burma against the

:58:36.:58:40.

Rohingya and other ethnic groups is crimes against humanity and other

:58:41.:58:44.

war crimes. What will stop the violence against your people? The

:58:45.:58:49.

thing is military operation is not a solution. The solution is the

:58:50.:58:56.

Rohingya about been facing decades of persecution. So the thing is they

:58:57.:59:07.

must restore the rights, restore citizenship rights, the Rohingya

:59:08.:59:11.

have been facing many years. It is very important point and currently

:59:12.:59:16.

what I want to highlight here is, the international community

:59:17.:59:19.

collective action is needed to save the lives of Rohingya where day by

:59:20.:59:24.

day the death toll is increasingment according to our information we

:59:25.:59:28.

received at least 2,000 Rohingya confirmed killed. Some sources are

:59:29.:59:33.

saying more than 5,000. So, currently this is priority and also

:59:34.:59:39.

second priority is humanitarian aid must be allowed. So the

:59:40.:59:43.

international community world leaders, they can't be silent. They

:59:44.:59:51.

must speak. They must directly call the commander-in-chief who is the

:59:52.:59:59.

main person. So the international community, the world leaders, must

:00:00.:00:02.

call him and Aung San Suu Kyi to allow humanitarian aid access and to

:00:03.:00:06.

stop this immediately. That's the solution for now, thank you. Thank

:00:07.:00:09.

you very much for coming on our programme. Our guest has family and

:00:10.:00:20.

friends currently fleeing, Myanmar. In a moment we will bring you the

:00:21.:00:24.

news and sport. Now the weather. Here is Sarah Keith-Lucas.

:00:25.:00:27.

Our reporter Ashley John Baptiste has been following her story.

:00:28.:00:31.

A damp, murky start for many, but sunshine, too. This is the scene on

:00:32.:00:38.

the Shetland Isles at the moment, clearer conditions are moving in.

:00:39.:00:43.

Across northern and north-western parts, starting to brighten up.

:00:44.:00:47.

Towards England and Wales, lots of cloud and outbreaks of rain will

:00:48.:00:51.

last through the day. The rain will ease away towards the east. Where we

:00:52.:00:55.

see greater intervals toward southern England we could see 21 or

:00:56.:01:00.

22 degrees. Into this evening, we will lose the wet weather, and we

:01:01.:01:05.

all in the clearer, fresher conditions to start tomorrow. Double

:01:06.:01:09.

figures in towns and cities but a bit cooler in the countryside. A

:01:10.:01:14.

much fresher day on Wednesday with a fuse scattered showers and

:01:15.:01:19.

north-western Scotland, a view from north-west England. Elsewhere, a

:01:20.:01:23.

rather dry, bright and breezy day. Temperatures tomorrow cooler,

:01:24.:01:24.

between 16 and 20 degrees. Hello, it's Tuesday, it's ten

:01:25.:01:29.

o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Our top story...

:01:30.:01:39.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has warned of a global catastrophe if

:01:40.:01:42.

military tensions with North Korea continued to increase.

:01:43.:01:44.

The United States has warned the UN Security Council that

:01:45.:01:46.

He has described the prospect of a global catastrophe if the continued

:01:47.:02:00.

military ramping up continues at this pace.

:02:01.:02:02.

Is some form of military intervention now inevitable?

:02:03.:02:04.

Also sex workers tell us about the violence they have been subjected to

:02:05.:02:15.

from clients. Campaigners are stepping up their efforts calling

:02:16.:02:18.

for the decriminalisation of the industry.

:02:19.:02:19.

The person just put his hands around my neck and then he keep

:02:20.:02:22.

on pressing with one hand on my throat.

:02:23.:02:29.

And keep unflinchingly to the face until I passed out.

:02:30.:02:34.

More on that in the next half-hour. And we will pay tribute to

:02:35.:02:41.

21-year-old Dean Eastmond, who died of cancer at the weekend. We will

:02:42.:02:45.

speak to his boyfriend, his brother and his best friend.

:02:46.:02:48.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:02:49.:02:52.

South Korea's Navy has staged a major exercise of the country's

:02:53.:02:54.

east coast is a show of strength to North

:02:55.:02:57.

Korea following its latest nuclear test.

:02:58.:03:03.

It said Pyongyang's forces would be buried at sea in the event

:03:04.:03:06.

The United States has warned the UN Security

:03:07.:03:09.

This programme has been told that at least 20 survivors and witnesses

:03:10.:03:15.

of the Grenfell Tower fire have attempted suicide.

:03:16.:03:18.

Charities Silence of Suicide and Justice4Grenfell say

:03:19.:03:21.

they base the claim on conversations with those supporting residents,

:03:22.:03:24.

though the BBC has been unable to independently verify the figure.

:03:25.:03:27.

They are calling for better long-term mental health

:03:28.:03:29.

Yvette Greenway has been supporting survivors, she has called for this.

:03:30.:03:42.

Psychological impact, the grieving, the trauma, PTSD, anxiety,

:03:43.:03:51.

depression, self harm and, sadly, suicide.

:03:52.:03:53.

One of Britain's most senior counter-terrorism officers has

:03:54.:03:55.

warned that the terror threat level will remain at severe for at least

:03:56.:03:58.

Neil Basu, the national co-ordinator for counter-terrorism policing,

:03:59.:04:01.

described the risk to the UK as an unknown threat in our midst.

:04:02.:04:04.

He warned isolated communities and unregulated schooling

:04:05.:04:06.

in the UK were a breeding ground for extremism.

:04:07.:04:10.

There are currently about 600 active counter-terrorism investigations.

:04:11.:04:17.

A report into whether social services failed a young girl

:04:18.:04:19.

who was murdered by her mother will be published today.

:04:20.:04:22.

Ayeeshia Jane Smith died in 2014 aged 21 months.

:04:23.:04:26.

She had been left in the care of her mother, Kathryn Smith,

:04:27.:04:29.

despite concerns raised by other relatives.

:04:30.:04:31.

The findings of a serious case review will be published at midday.

:04:32.:04:40.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10:30.

:04:41.:04:43.

England came from behind at Wembley to beat Slovakia and stay top

:04:44.:04:48.

Marcus Rashford gave away possesion and the visistors took their chance

:04:49.:04:53.

brilliantly through Stanislav Lubotka.

:04:54.:05:04.

Rashford was two changes for England on on the night.

:05:05.:05:07.

A Slovakia win would have seen them move to the top of Group F,

:05:08.:05:10.

but Eric Dier equalised by halftime and Rashford lashed

:05:11.:05:12.

Two more points from their last two matches will see them

:05:13.:05:16.

But Dele Alli's involvement could be in the balance.

:05:17.:05:20.

He says that he showed the middle finger to his teamate Kyle Walker

:05:21.:05:23.

as they shared a joke and not the match official.

:05:24.:05:25.

Fifa will wait to see if the referees

:05:26.:05:27.

I've not seen, but I've been made aware of it. They were mucking

:05:28.:05:41.

about, Dele Alli made a gesture towards Kyle. I don't know what's

:05:42.:05:49.

been visible on the picture, what the angle of the picture is. The

:05:50.:05:56.

pair of them have a strange way of communicating, but that is what they

:05:57.:06:01.

have said when I have phrased it. As I say, I have not seen it myself.

:06:02.:06:04.

It's in Scotland's hands to finsih second behind England in Group F.

:06:05.:06:10.

It will not guarantee a play-off match but only one of the nine

:06:11.:06:16.

runners-up in the European groups will miss. -- Masoud. -- miss out.

:06:17.:06:22.

Christophe Berra and Leigh Griffiths got the goals

:06:23.:06:23.

wins will see them finish second and a chance

:06:24.:06:28.

Northern Ireland are sure of a runner's up spot after

:06:29.:06:32.

making it five wins in a row in qualifying,

:06:33.:06:34.

and they should be one of the best runners up with two games to play.

:06:35.:06:37.

West Brom's Jonny Evans and Chris Brunt with a lovely curled

:06:38.:06:40.

freekick saw them beat the Czech Republic.

:06:41.:06:42.

Group leaders Germany are next. Wells could move second in their

:06:43.:06:45.

group with a win over Moldova. -- Wales could.

:06:46.:06:47.

The first of the mens and woemn's quarterfinals later today.

:06:48.:06:49.

Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal play tomorrow and are still on collision

:06:50.:06:52.

Federer is going to play Juan Martin Del Potro and this

:06:53.:06:56.

The Russian teenager Andrey Rublev has set up

:06:57.:06:59.

The 19-year-old came through overnight after beating

:07:00.:07:02.

He is the first teenager since Andy Roddick back in 2001

:07:03.:07:06.

to make it this far in the mens draw.

:07:07.:07:10.

I'll be back with the headlines in the next half-hour.

:07:11.:07:18.

MPs are back in Parliament today, so our political Guru Norman Smith is

:07:19.:07:24.

back. So good to see you, Frank God you are back. I wish I could say the

:07:25.:07:32.

same! David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, will update the Commons

:07:33.:07:38.

today with Brexit negotiations. What will he say? I think he will say

:07:39.:07:42.

don't panic, hang on in there, it will be all right in the end.

:07:43.:07:46.

Everything we have heard from the Brussels and has been oh dear, oh

:07:47.:07:51.

dear. No progress has been made, you guys don't know what you are doing,

:07:52.:07:56.

it is going awfully slowly. So David Davis will try to reassure MPs he

:07:57.:08:01.

has a grip on what he is doing, he has a plan and we are not running

:08:02.:08:04.

out of time. The thinking in team Davis seems to be, OK, Mr Barnier,

:08:05.:08:11.

the main EU negotiator, might not be too impressed with is but the people

:08:12.:08:16.

who really matter, not just Mr Barnier but the leaders of big EU

:08:17.:08:20.

countries like France and Germany, the hope is they will be much more

:08:21.:08:24.

amenable to Britain and in time they will say we have to cut a deal with

:08:25.:08:29.

the Brits and stop faffing around, stopped dawdling around, let's not

:08:30.:08:33.

talk endlessly about divorce arrangements, let's get talking

:08:34.:08:37.

about a trade deal. I think Mr Davies will try to calm MPs who are

:08:38.:08:41.

nervous that he is about like the boy on the burning deck with the

:08:42.:08:45.

flames licking up HUS Brexit as we drift listlessly towards the rocks,

:08:46.:08:50.

they will say hang on, it is under control, I have a plan.

:08:51.:08:55.

Let me ask you about the EU Withdrawal Bill. Explain what it is

:08:56.:08:59.

and then explained the contentious issues around it.

:09:00.:09:06.

It sounds like an exam question! Discuss! It is a technical bill

:09:07.:09:13.

which brings into British law all the many thousands of bits and

:09:14.:09:19.

pieces of EU law and regulation, that govern pretty much every nook

:09:20.:09:23.

and cranny of our daily lives. The thinking is you need to put it into

:09:24.:09:27.

British law so that when we leave we do knowledge into legal limbo. That

:09:28.:09:33.

is the easy part. The difficult part, politically, is that Mrs May's

:09:34.:09:40.

opponents over Brexit see this as a perfect vehicle for causing all

:09:41.:09:43.

sorts of trouble for Mrs May, for piling in with a whole load of

:09:44.:09:48.

amendments to say, for example, if we leave the EU we must stay in the

:09:49.:09:52.

single market or the customs union or MPs must have a vote before any

:09:53.:09:57.

final deal is sealed off. In other words, it will be the flash point

:09:58.:10:03.

for, I'm afraid, potentially months of parliamentary tussle and

:10:04.:10:10.

late-night votes over Brexit. That is the truth about where we now are.

:10:11.:10:15.

Before the summer recess it was all about survival, could Mrs May claw

:10:16.:10:20.

her way through to the recess? She did that, got a deal with the DUP

:10:21.:10:24.

and dumped a load of legislation, now the name of the game is Brexit

:10:25.:10:29.

land, we will be utterly and totally dominated here at Westminster by

:10:30.:10:34.

Brexit. It will be Brexit the breakfast, Brexit the lunch, Brexit

:10:35.:10:39.

the dinner, Brexit fellate Metis and toast, it will be nonstop Brexit.

:10:40.:10:50.

-- Brexit for late night dinner and toast. I will not get you to answer

:10:51.:10:54.

these questions, they are too easy for you, but using your own

:10:55.:10:58.

knowledge as well as the extract, it gives an extract which I will not

:10:59.:11:03.

bore you with, identify and explain two reasons why by-election results

:11:04.:11:06.

is pure indicator of general election outcomes. I can do that

:11:07.:11:12.

one. I know you can. Voting is election should only be seen as one

:11:13.:11:17.

way of measuring political participation, discuss. That is

:11:18.:11:21.

where 25 marks. Away from that exam paper and back to the real world...

:11:22.:11:27.

You think this is the real world?! Back to the Westminster bubble,

:11:28.:11:31.

which you try to burst for us on a daily basis, which I'm very pleased

:11:32.:11:36.

about, Labour will vote against the second reading of the withdrawal

:11:37.:11:42.

Bill? Explain what a second reading is and the significance of Labour

:11:43.:11:46.

voting against it? The second reading is the big vote, the key

:11:47.:11:52.

vote in which MPs say whether they are in favour of the principal

:11:53.:11:57.

behind a bill. If you vote against that it basically means we just

:11:58.:12:01.

disagree, we will not back it, come what may. That will not be the key

:12:02.:12:07.

flash point in this tussle now looming over the withdrawal Bill. It

:12:08.:12:13.

will be debated on Thursday the vote will be on Monday, it will drift

:12:14.:12:17.

over the weekend and dominate the papers, but it will not be the big

:12:18.:12:23.

moment. The reason is that Tory MPs, with Mrs May over Brexit, will not

:12:24.:12:27.

support Labour in voting against the second reading on Monday. The reason

:12:28.:12:31.

for that is they don't want to be seen as if they are in Jeremy

:12:32.:12:37.

Corbyn's back pocket, as they are playing his game. Down the line in

:12:38.:12:43.

the autumn, critical Tory MPs will pop up with their own amendment and

:12:44.:12:49.

those against the Government. All the things about staying in the

:12:50.:12:54.

single market, giving MPs are bigger say. Don't expect the critical bust

:12:55.:13:01.

ups on Monday, we will have to wait until after the party conferences,

:13:02.:13:08.

November, December, January, all those tense, late-night, knife edge

:13:09.:13:12.

votes where there is a possibility, because Mrs May has a tiny majority,

:13:13.:13:17.

that she could be defeated. That poses the huge question, what does

:13:18.:13:21.

that mean for Brexit? Does that derail some of the Brexit plans?

:13:22.:13:26.

Does it dent her authority and reignite the questions about

:13:27.:13:31.

leadership? We are entering into very, very dangerous times for Mrs

:13:32.:13:36.

May down the line. Thank you, Norman Smith. So good to have him back,

:13:37.:13:41.

Norman speaking in plain, normal language about the world of

:13:42.:13:42.

politics, which is good. In the UK, there are

:13:43.:13:44.

thousands of sex workers - that is people who sell

:13:45.:13:46.

sexual services for money. It's not illegal to sell sex,

:13:47.:13:49.

but almost every activity associated with the trade -

:13:50.:13:51.

from brothel keeping to soliciting - is, which means that many women

:13:52.:13:55.

in the industry face the prospect of being charged with an offence,

:13:56.:13:58.

and often take risks So might decriminalisation

:13:59.:14:00.

of the sex-industry be the best way One activist and former sex worker

:14:01.:14:11.

who goes by Suzie - although that's Earlier, we played a film

:14:12.:14:19.

Suzie made for us - I have worked in the sex industry

:14:20.:14:26.

on and off in my adult life. There's a perception that sex work

:14:27.:14:40.

is inherently degrading, that it's morally wrong,

:14:41.:14:43.

but when you look at it compared to the other low paid, long hours,

:14:44.:14:46.

incredibly physically demanding jobs, it's often the best

:14:47.:14:48.

choice for people. According to one estimate,

:14:49.:14:58.

there are nearly 73,000 sex There's no doubt that some of those

:14:59.:15:00.

people are coerced into selling sex. But, to be clear, this

:15:01.:15:12.

film isn't about people who are coerced into prostitution

:15:13.:15:14.

against their will. It's about people who have made

:15:15.:15:20.

a decision to work in the sex industry and how the law often fails

:15:21.:15:23.

to protect those people. I'm Maria from Portugal.

:15:24.:15:26.

I'm a sex worker. Maria, not her real name,

:15:27.:15:30.

says she was working with a group of women at a brothel in London

:15:31.:15:33.

when she became the victim I was in a house working with a few

:15:34.:15:36.

different girls and then five or six different guys just came

:15:37.:15:46.

inside of the house. The security opened

:15:47.:15:48.

the door for them. And then they just went with knives

:15:49.:15:49.

and they just took all the money. The police arrived soon

:15:50.:15:58.

after to investigate but Maria explained that the police seemed

:15:59.:16:01.

to be as interested in the work going on the premises

:16:02.:16:03.

as in the robbery itself. Maria explained that it

:16:04.:16:12.

is for precisely this reason that sex workers

:16:13.:16:14.

are often reluctant to report violent crime to the police for fear

:16:15.:16:16.

of being investigated themselves. If they call the police,

:16:17.:16:20.

the police will just see the place that they are working and they will

:16:21.:16:23.

say to leave or something, I'm originally from Romania.

:16:24.:16:26.

I'm a sex worker. I've been a sex worker

:16:27.:16:37.

for the last five years. I've been working

:16:38.:16:39.

in Soho ever since. Suzanne, once again not her real

:16:40.:16:46.

name, has an even more Sadly, some years ago,

:16:47.:16:48.

Suzanne was the victim of a violent around my neck and then he keep

:16:49.:16:52.

on pressing with one hand on my throat and keep on punching me

:16:53.:16:58.

to the face until I passed out. Fortunately, Suzanne was working

:16:59.:17:01.

with someone that night, her receptionist, who was eventually

:17:02.:17:12.

able to call for medical help. But she believes that,

:17:13.:17:15.

had she been working alone, she might not have

:17:16.:17:17.

survived the attack. If it wasn't for her that night,

:17:18.:17:20.

no one could have woken me up. The thing that sex workers want is

:17:21.:17:29.

full decriminalisation of sex work. But as long as the law continues

:17:30.:17:32.

to act as an incentive to unsafe working practices,

:17:33.:17:35.

more sex workers like the women we've heard from in this

:17:36.:17:37.

film will be at risk Let's talk now to Nikki

:17:38.:17:40.

Adams from the English Thangham Debbonaire a Labour MP

:17:41.:17:50.

who campaigns on the issue, and Kat Banyard,

:17:51.:17:54.

who is the founder of UK Feminista, a UK feminist pressure group,

:17:55.:17:56.

and author of the book Pimp State. Do you accept if you go into sex

:17:57.:18:10.

work you are taking a risk with your safety? I think the ways the laws

:18:11.:18:17.

are organised at the moment, yes, you are. There is a contradiction in

:18:18.:18:27.

how you would want to work in order to save arrest. Even working

:18:28.:18:32.

together on the street with other women, which is a much better way of

:18:33.:18:36.

doing it and women go to a lot of effort to bring in all these kind of

:18:37.:18:40.

safety measures like trying to work with a friend, somebody that takes

:18:41.:18:44.

down the registration number of a car you're getting into, all those

:18:45.:18:47.

kinds of things. Women work very hard to keep themselves safe, but

:18:48.:18:52.

that puts new a very risk situation of being arrested and prosecuted.

:18:53.:18:57.

What would be wrong with for example decriminalising brothel keeping? So

:18:58.:19:01.

that women could work together and hopefully be better protected? Well,

:19:02.:19:05.

prostitution is a form of sexual exploitation and we see from

:19:06.:19:10.

countries where they have completely relaxed the laws, that is making

:19:11.:19:13.

brothel keeping and pimping legal that all it does is expand the trade

:19:14.:19:19.

and magnify the harm. So in Germany, which did what was requested in this

:19:20.:19:24.

film... No, no, we don't want legalisation as in Germany. What we

:19:25.:19:28.

are saying, we want full decriminalisation. It means that

:19:29.:19:33.

you're subject to the same... You're subject to the same laws as everyone

:19:34.:19:38.

else. Let her finish. Which would enable what happened in Germany

:19:39.:19:45.

which is chains of so-called megabrothels where dozens of women

:19:46.:19:48.

in the same building see hundreds of men. The trade is now estimated to

:19:49.:19:55.

be worth 14 billion euros a year in Germany and they have a huge problem

:19:56.:19:59.

with human trafficking. What the film fails to do is give a fair and

:20:00.:20:03.

accurate picture of prostitution in the UK. That wasn't the premise

:20:04.:20:08.

which we made clear in the film. We have talked about the industry many

:20:09.:20:11.

times on this programme and all the angles that are involved. Today, we

:20:12.:20:17.

were talking specifically about those women who are arguing for

:20:18.:20:21.

decriminalisation in order to better protect themselves. Do you accept

:20:22.:20:27.

the way the laws are set out, it doesn't protect women who go and

:20:28.:20:34.

choose to be a sex worker? The use of the word, "Choose" Is

:20:35.:20:37.

problematic. We need to think about who gets involved in prostitution

:20:38.:20:40.

and how they are prosecuted and what the consequences are. You watched

:20:41.:20:43.

the film... I haven't seen the hole film. Well, the women in that

:20:44.:20:47.

film... Had been hurt. Had been hurt. By clients. But made their own

:20:48.:20:57.

choice to be a sex worker. I'm not sure we know that. I know women who

:20:58.:21:03.

have been coerced and research that took place in Bristol found there

:21:04.:21:07.

were 65 brothels operating and in those organised crime was taking

:21:08.:21:12.

place in three-quarters of them. Women have been trafficked, coerced

:21:13.:21:16.

and forced, legalising doesn't make it safe. I want to see placing

:21:17.:21:21.

responsibility for harm on the pimps and the punters, the member who buy

:21:22.:21:28.

and sell other women's bodies. Nikki, legalising or

:21:29.:21:29.

decriminalising, whichever word you prefer to use, does not make women

:21:30.:21:34.

safer? But it does because you saw from the film those are two women in

:21:35.:21:38.

our organisation. We know, their situation came out well in the film

:21:39.:21:43.

and what we are saying is if they decriminalise you remove the

:21:44.:21:47.

criminal laws and you're subject to the same laws of the land and the

:21:48.:21:50.

same laws that apply to other workers and what you can do is use

:21:51.:21:55.

the protections that other workers have in order to improve your

:21:56.:21:59.

working conditions. Health and safety in a normal job is not the

:22:00.:22:03.

same. If I work in a bakery, my boss can say, "You need to bake that loaf

:22:04.:22:08.

of bread." If I refuse to bake it, my boss can sack me. If I'm

:22:09.:22:13.

exploited as a prostitute and someone says I'm going to pay to

:22:14.:22:16.

have sex with you and I change my mind for whatever reason and they

:22:17.:22:21.

insist on having their contract fulfilled then they are raping me

:22:22.:22:24.

and I have no choice. That's not a job like any other. That isn't how

:22:25.:22:29.

it works in practise. We are fighting against terrible working.

:22:30.:22:32.

No, but you're talking about women, you have to ask women who are

:22:33.:22:37.

currently in sex work what, where there are bad working conditions and

:22:38.:22:41.

where there is exploitation... When you're on your own. What do you

:22:42.:22:45.

want? The last thing they would say is for their clients to be

:22:46.:22:48.

criminalised because that ends up in a crackdown on prostitution. In some

:22:49.:22:54.

ways. Sorry... Last point. The fact is we're sitting here at this moment

:22:55.:22:59.

where one and a quarter people in this country are destitute. People

:23:00.:23:05.

seeking asylum are living on ?36. Prostitution is... Prostitution is

:23:06.:23:10.

not the solution to that, Nikki, it really is not. Don't talk over each

:23:11.:23:21.

other because people can't hear you. The trafficking of women and girls

:23:22.:23:26.

into this country to be brutally exploited in the prostitution trade

:23:27.:23:29.

is worth at least ?130 million annually. We have to tackle that.

:23:30.:23:35.

And the key link in the human trafficking chain is sex buyers. It

:23:36.:23:39.

is their money that lines the pockets of pimps and traffickers.

:23:40.:23:43.

That is why our laws have to tackle that. We need a law that

:23:44.:23:53.

criminalises paying for sex, but decriminalises... Hang on. Don't

:23:54.:23:59.

speak at the same time. What is best for women that are in... You're

:24:00.:24:03.

railroading over what women say they want. You're listening to one group

:24:04.:24:07.

of women and I'm listening to another group of women who tell me

:24:08.:24:13.

about sexual exploitation and violence and rape. If you're on your

:24:14.:24:21.

own with a man who has paid for sex, having someone in the next door...

:24:22.:24:28.

You're safer... You're not. You are safer to work if you are working

:24:29.:24:32.

with other people. You have a false picture of safety. Yes. When you

:24:33.:24:35.

come down to the harm of prostitution. Women make a decision

:24:36.:24:39.

to go into prostitution weighing up the other optionsment It doesn't

:24:40.:24:44.

make it OK. One of the ways that we could tackle the abuse and

:24:45.:24:51.

exploitation in prostitution is make it easier for women to leave. Jeremy

:24:52.:25:02.

Corbyn and John McDonnell are compromising against austerity.

:25:03.:25:07.

Sexual exploitation is not the solution for austerity. Don't talk

:25:08.:25:15.

over each other, please! We cannot make sexual exploitation safe. We

:25:16.:25:18.

can end the demand that drives the exploitation and that will be

:25:19.:25:23.

critical to Theresa May achieving her drive of tackling modern day

:25:24.:25:26.

slavery. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on

:25:27.:25:27.

the programme. Thank you. The findings of a Serious Case

:25:28.:25:36.

Review into the death of a Staffordshire toddler

:25:37.:25:38.

who was stamped to death by her mother will be

:25:39.:25:41.

published at midday. We'll be talking to a child

:25:42.:25:42.

abuse solicitor to see "Begging for war" is how the US

:25:43.:25:45.

describes North Korea following its sixth and most

:25:46.:25:49.

powerful nuclear test. Overnight, the South Korean Navy

:25:50.:25:55.

says it has carried out more live fire drills in response

:25:56.:25:58.

to the nuclear test by Pyongyang. The US says all options

:25:59.:26:00.

are the table to deal with the threat and North Korea

:26:01.:26:02.

is believed to be So where is this game

:26:03.:26:05.

of brinkmanship going to end? Is military intervention

:26:06.:26:08.

to stop North Korea getting Let's talk to Anneke Green,

:26:09.:26:10.

Republican and former speechwriter for President George W Bush

:26:11.:26:19.

and now Columnist for Real Clear Politics who thinks

:26:20.:26:22.

President Trump should be Dr Grant Christopher,

:26:23.:26:24.

Programme Manager for Non-Proliferation,

:26:25.:26:30.

Ridgeway Information, who thinks military action isn't inevitable,

:26:31.:26:32.

but is definitely becoming Mark Tokola is a retired

:26:33.:26:33.

member of the US senior foreign service and head

:26:34.:26:40.

of the Korean Economic Institute - who thinks that there are many more

:26:41.:26:43.

diplomatic steps to be taken before military action is needed to stop

:26:44.:26:46.

North Korea's nuclear programme. Welcome all of you. That was a very

:26:47.:27:00.

long introduction, but you are the three key people to talk to about

:27:01.:27:05.

this. Mark, as a retired member of the US senior foreign service, I

:27:06.:27:09.

want you to tell me what you think is most likely to happen next? Well,

:27:10.:27:15.

I think most likely we're going to have discussion of what steps could

:27:16.:27:19.

be taken to try to put more pressure on North Korea. I think there is

:27:20.:27:22.

some options that could be taken. I don't think we are close to having a

:27:23.:27:29.

conflict. There will be more discussion between the US and China

:27:30.:27:37.

and the US and South Korea. Grant Christopher, what do you

:27:38.:27:41.

think? It is not inevitable, but it seems probable. All we need to do to

:27:42.:27:46.

see that is to listen to what people from the Trump administration have

:27:47.:27:50.

been saying. If you look at the Kim regime, the conventional narrative

:27:51.:27:53.

is they are just interested in survival. That's why he has

:27:54.:27:57.

eliminated rivals and that's why they're keeping nuclear weapons to

:27:58.:28:00.

deter the US from attacking them. However, from a New York Times

:28:01.:28:04.

report yesterday, there is a report that in the White House, there is a

:28:05.:28:08.

view that has taken hold that these weapons are being developed to

:28:09.:28:12.

threaten the US or coerce the US. Right. So they will have the nuclear

:28:13.:28:19.

weapons and maybe they will be able to attack South Korea or have more

:28:20.:28:22.

freedom to do military action in the region. That's a very dangerous

:28:23.:28:27.

point of view and that point, if that point of view wins then war

:28:28.:28:31.

becomes more likely and a lot of people will die. What sort of war?

:28:32.:28:35.

It could be a conventional war. It could be a conventional nuclear war

:28:36.:28:41.

or a nuclear war with both sides exchanging nuclear weapons. The most

:28:42.:28:45.

likely would be a conventional war from the US side and a nuclear

:28:46.:28:50.

chemical bio war from the Korean side. Oh my goodness. I mean,

:28:51.:28:57.

Annika, where are you on this? I don't think that the Trump

:28:58.:29:01.

administration is hoping for a war with North Korea. I do know that

:29:02.:29:05.

North Korea is the foreign actor that he is most concerned about, but

:29:06.:29:11.

I have been interpreting his statements as well as the second of

:29:12.:29:16.

Davis mat Is who came out on Sunday and talked about the hydrogen test

:29:17.:29:19.

that North Korea claimed to have carried out as a type of signal. It

:29:20.:29:24.

is a diplomacy. It sounds harsher than what we have been used to

:29:25.:29:28.

hearing, but it maybe time for that kind of talk now given that previous

:29:29.:29:33.

attempts and softer language has done nothing to deter North Korea

:29:34.:29:39.

from even if it is survival, they see survival as taking South Korea

:29:40.:29:45.

back. What do you think President Trump's red line is when it comes to

:29:46.:29:52.

North Korea? That's a good question. I interpreted the missile that was

:29:53.:29:55.

shot over Japan as an intentional provocation of the United States. As

:29:56.:29:59.

Japan is another nation that is dependant on the United States for

:30:00.:30:04.

military assistance and so, that was not an accident that that happened

:30:05.:30:08.

and that was the target that they chose. So for Trump, with that being

:30:09.:30:13.

very aggressive, I think that something would have to be attacked

:30:14.:30:17.

or they have intelligence indicating that, that they consider credible

:30:18.:30:21.

for there to be that movement. In the meantime they can do things and

:30:22.:30:27.

send the military up the coast. The South Korea announcement that they

:30:28.:30:30.

are doing exercises with live fire is another signal to North Korea and

:30:31.:30:33.

they are supported by the United States. Mark, what do you think

:30:34.:30:34.

President Trump's red line might be? He has not been clear. That is

:30:35.:30:44.

probably wise, if you describe and then North Korea will try to press

:30:45.:30:49.

up against it. I don't think the missile flight over Japan was the

:30:50.:30:55.

maximum they could have done. They avoided sending a missile towards

:30:56.:30:59.

one. Previous missiles have splashed in the seat to the west of Japan.

:31:00.:31:03.

They tried to pick up a part of Japan that is least populated to fly

:31:04.:31:08.

over. North Korea has many options in which direction to shoot, that

:31:09.:31:12.

was not the worst. Grant, what with North Korea had to do to provoke the

:31:13.:31:17.

US into taking military action? -- what would North Korea had to do? We

:31:18.:31:23.

don't know the red line for the Trump administration. We know what

:31:24.:31:27.

would be well over it, and invasion of South Korea or a strike on Guam.

:31:28.:31:32.

But there is a lot of space between. Perhaps the administration is being

:31:33.:31:35.

deliberately vague or perhaps they are having problems with messaging.

:31:36.:31:42.

We have seen over and over again the administration contradicting each

:31:43.:31:47.

other on a really important policy matters, be it Trump treating all

:31:48.:31:52.

going of the script in addresses versus the very well worded address

:31:53.:31:58.

from the Defence Secretary yesterday. Thank you all very much

:31:59.:32:03.

for coming on the programme. We have some breaking news to do

:32:04.:32:07.

with G4S, they have suspended a tenth member of staff at Brookhouse

:32:08.:32:14.

following last night's BBC Panorama programme, I don't know if you saw

:32:15.:32:18.

that but the footage was unbelievable, very shocking. The

:32:19.:32:22.

employee was one of five workers are restricted duties. A former G4S

:32:23.:32:25.

worker now employed by the Home Office has also been suspended, it

:32:26.:32:30.

is understood that disciplinary proceedings against G4S staff

:32:31.:32:33.

allegedly involved will begin within days and the company is appointing

:32:34.:32:42.

an outside expert to consult tonne conduct a review on Brookhouse and

:32:43.:32:49.

other centres run by G4S. And just to bring you this breaking

:32:50.:32:54.

news, this is from West Midlands Police, four alleged members of the

:32:55.:32:59.

band neo-Nazi group National Action have been arrested on suspicion of

:33:00.:33:03.

preparing acts of terror. That is just in from West Midlands Police,

:33:04.:33:09.

four members of the ban neo-Nazi group, National Action, have been

:33:10.:33:14.

arrested on suspicion of preparing acts of terrorism.

:33:15.:33:16.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:33:17.:33:19.

South Korea's Navy has staged a major exercise off the country's

:33:20.:33:21.

east coast as a show of strength to North

:33:22.:33:24.

Korea following its latest nuclear test.

:33:25.:33:25.

It said Pyongyang's forces would be buried at sea in the event

:33:26.:33:28.

The United States has warned the UN Security

:33:29.:33:31.

The 46-year-old woman has been charged with fraud after making

:33:32.:33:43.

claims for support being provided for survivors of the Grenfell Tower

:33:44.:33:47.

disaster. The woman from Sutton in south London will appear at

:33:48.:33:48.

Westminster magistrates today. The Brexit Secretary David Davis

:33:49.:33:51.

will face questions in the Commons this afternoon as MPs return

:33:52.:33:54.

to Westminster after He will give an update on last

:33:55.:33:56.

week's third round of negotiations with the European Union

:33:57.:34:00.

as Downing Street promises to That's a summary of

:34:01.:34:02.

the latest BBC News. Join me at 11am

:34:03.:34:13.

for BB Newsroom Live. These are our headlines this

:34:14.:34:17.

morning - Fifa will wait for the referee's report at Wembley

:34:18.:34:21.

before deciding if England's Dele Alli should be charged

:34:22.:34:24.

for an obscene hand gesture. He says it was a joke

:34:25.:34:26.

with a teamate and not directed England came from behind

:34:27.:34:29.

to beat Slovakia 2-1. Marcus Rashford with the winner

:34:30.:34:32.

to keep them top of their group. They'll qualify for Russia

:34:33.:34:35.

with just two points Scotland beat Malta

:34:36.:34:37.

2-0 at Hampden Park - wins in their last two games should

:34:38.:34:40.

put them into the play-off Northern Ireland are looking good

:34:41.:34:43.

for a play-off spot - their 2-0 win over the Czech

:34:44.:34:48.

Republic in Belfast assures them 19-year-old Russian Andrei Rublev

:34:49.:34:50.

has become the first teenager since 2001 to reach the US

:34:51.:34:57.

Open quarter-finals. He plays his

:34:58.:35:02.

childhood hero Rafa Nadal next. Roger Federer also came

:35:03.:35:05.

through his match overnight. I will have more sport on BBC news

:35:06.:35:18.

in the next hour. Thank you.

:35:19.:35:19.

A Serious Case Review into the death of a Staffordshire toddler

:35:20.:35:22.

who was stamped to death by her mother has

:35:23.:35:24.

Ayeeshia Jane Smith, who was 21 months old,

:35:25.:35:27.

In a moment we will speak to Peter Saunders, founder of The National

:35:28.:35:47.

Association For People Abuse, and also the president of The

:35:48.:35:49.

Association Of Child Abuse Lawyers. Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu has

:35:50.:35:50.

been reading the report. What does the reviews say? It has

:35:51.:35:59.

made nine recommendations in total, including things like taking into

:36:00.:36:03.

account the mother's mental health and her historic drug abuse, the

:36:04.:36:08.

relationships of her ex-partners, some of them were violent, and the

:36:09.:36:12.

child 's I found the mother's life, and not focusing too much on the

:36:13.:36:15.

fact that the mother is a victim of domestic violence. The review also

:36:16.:36:22.

recommended that Derbyshire safeguarding children board should

:36:23.:36:26.

undertake a multi-agency audit of children subject to a supervision

:36:27.:36:31.

order to make sure that the care plans put post-supervision orders

:36:32.:36:37.

are robust. This little girl was subject to a supervision order? She

:36:38.:36:40.

was subject to a number of different orders. The review also found that a

:36:41.:36:46.

lot of the professionals were in and out of her life but the focus was

:36:47.:36:49.

too much placed on the mother and the relationships she was having

:36:50.:36:53.

rather than the mother's relationship with the child. The

:36:54.:36:57.

review also concluded that with all the facts and evidence presented

:36:58.:37:04.

predicting that Ayeeshia's mother would have killed her was not

:37:05.:37:07.

possible. Let me bring in Peter Saunders and

:37:08.:37:12.

Peter Gosden. Good morning. Peter Saunders, how do you respond to some

:37:13.:37:16.

of the news emerging from the review? In the 20 years that my

:37:17.:37:24.

organisation has been running, I have kind of lost count of how many

:37:25.:37:29.

times I have been asked to comment on the merger or abuse of children

:37:30.:37:35.

and the ensuing serious case reviews. And once again we're having

:37:36.:37:39.

this discussion. I think it is really important at this point, and

:37:40.:37:45.

the National organisation for the survivors, because mercifully most

:37:46.:37:49.

children who are battered and abused as children to grow up and we pick

:37:50.:37:54.

up the pieces on a daily basis, but I think this reiterates the

:37:55.:37:57.

importance of the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse that

:37:58.:38:02.

is being undertaken. It is the largest such inquiry ever undertaken

:38:03.:38:07.

and it needs to be supported, because we have far too many of

:38:08.:38:14.

these child deaths. We don't, actually. It is important to say it

:38:15.:38:19.

is rare. This is horrific and tragic. We have to putted into

:38:20.:38:24.

context but it is not rare to the child whose life has been lost, and

:38:25.:38:29.

to the families affected by this. It is about sending messages out. I

:38:30.:38:33.

have only had the chance to briefly read the report, it has just come

:38:34.:38:39.

out. They're always lessons to be learned and there was lots of good

:38:40.:38:43.

practice. Point number one is we have to remember who killed this

:38:44.:38:47.

child at the end of the day, it was her mother but there was clearly

:38:48.:38:53.

disorganisation around the agencies that were there to support the

:38:54.:38:58.

mother and to ultimately save that child, and I am afraid she was let

:38:59.:39:03.

down. Let me bring in a representative from the Association

:39:04.:39:08.

Of Child Abuse Lawyers. , the agencies around them and this little

:39:09.:39:13.

girl concentrated too much on the mum's relationships with other men

:39:14.:39:16.

rather than her relationship with the child. I am to say that these

:39:17.:39:22.

serious case reviews are all too Common and the same messages come

:39:23.:39:28.

out over and over again. That opportunities to do more have been

:39:29.:39:31.

missed and that the agencies don't work together enough to be proactive

:39:32.:39:42.

rather than reactive. There are very well orchestrated solutions to this

:39:43.:39:46.

problem, which I have campaigned for the many years. It is mandatory

:39:47.:39:56.

reporting. That would be a method of creating a better joint of

:39:57.:39:59.

communication process for all the different agencies so that when

:40:00.:40:03.

intelligence is discovered about a child at risk, it is put on some

:40:04.:40:08.

sort of collective database which I would advocate should be led by the

:40:09.:40:15.

local authority designated officer, all the information is centralised.

:40:16.:40:18.

There is one collection point over and over again, there is not enough

:40:19.:40:23.

working together, despite the best efforts of public services. I

:40:24.:40:28.

understand the campaign for mandatory reporting, we have covered

:40:29.:40:33.

it on the programme a number of times, but in the case of this

:40:34.:40:36.

little girl I am not sure how that would have helped save her life, as

:40:37.:40:40.

you have heard the reviews said no one could predict that in the end

:40:41.:40:45.

the mum would kill her own daughter? No. Obviously I have not read the

:40:46.:40:50.

report, it has only just come out, I would need to study it in more

:40:51.:40:55.

detail. But once again we have a comment but not enough concentration

:40:56.:40:58.

was placed on the child, which echoes what Peters says that the

:40:59.:41:06.

victim is often lost in this and concentration is put on the way in

:41:07.:41:10.

which the local authority social workers behaved towards the family.

:41:11.:41:15.

Lessons can always be learned and I am sure they will be in this case.

:41:16.:41:19.

Thank you both very much. A paedophile has been jailed for

:41:20.:41:22.

16 years after admitting rape, despite being thousands of miles

:41:23.:41:25.

away when the offences happened. John Denison has more. Pretty

:41:26.:41:42.

horrendous, one of the senior police officers involved described it as

:41:43.:41:47.

the most disturbing of his career. Paul Leighton, 32 from Seaham in

:41:48.:41:51.

County Durham, he set up up to 40 fake Facebook accounts to befriend

:41:52.:41:59.

children in the UK, but primarily in the United States, Australia,

:42:00.:42:03.

Canada. He persuaded them, posing often as young girls themselves, he

:42:04.:42:09.

persuaded those boys, often, to send naked selfies of themselves to him,

:42:10.:42:15.

he then blackmailed those children into committing horrific abuse. In

:42:16.:42:19.

one case a 14-year-old boy from Florida was blackmailed into raping

:42:20.:42:26.

his own one-year-old niece. Another case in Tennessee, a young girl

:42:27.:42:30.

blackmailed into having sex with her own brother.

:42:31.:42:37.

Do we have details about how he was tracked down? We don't. I think

:42:38.:42:43.

police have been... Of these specialist team is looking into the

:42:44.:42:46.

use of social media. I think the lesson the police will be pointed

:42:47.:42:52.

out here is don't send naked pictures of yourself, young

:42:53.:42:55.

children, you just don't know who you are dealing with online. What is

:42:56.:42:59.

unusual about this case is he admitted three counts of rape, even

:43:00.:43:04.

though he was thousands and thousands of miles away from the

:43:05.:43:08.

offence... Where the offences took place. I should add that the

:43:09.:43:13.

children who carried out those rapes overseas have also been picked up in

:43:14.:43:16.

the United States. Thank you very much.

:43:17.:43:19.

Former Girls Aloud singer Cheryl says she's "disappointed"

:43:20.:43:21.

to have her role in L'Oreal's diversity campaign questioned

:43:22.:43:23.

She has dropped her surname, whichever one it was!

:43:24.:43:27.

Yesterday model Munroe Bergdorf told us she couldn't understand why she'd

:43:28.:43:29.

been sacked for saying white people benefit from racism

:43:30.:43:32.

This has been world news and it's not something that

:43:33.:43:38.

I shouldn't be sacked for calling out racism

:43:39.:43:42.

when I was in a campaign that was meant to be

:43:43.:43:45.

Especially when I was speaking about the violence of white people,

:43:46.:43:53.

but then they've got Cheryl Cole on the campaign and she was

:43:54.:43:57.

convicted for actively punching a black woman in the face.

:43:58.:44:01.

I don't understand how I'm not in line with their values

:44:02.:44:04.

but they will hire Cheryl Cole over and over again and give her

:44:05.:44:07.

more and more chances but she was convicted for punching

:44:08.:44:10.

Does she not deserve a second chance?

:44:11.:44:15.

I think if you're going to put a woman who punched a black woman

:44:16.:44:19.

in the face as the face of diversity that just says a lot about white

:44:20.:44:22.

In a statement after that interview Chery's

:44:23.:44:26.

"More than 14 years ago Cheryl was unanimously acquitted

:44:27.:44:31.

of a charge of racially aggravated assault.

:44:32.:44:35.

She is disappointed to find her name involved in

:44:36.:44:37.

In 2003, Cheryl was found guilty of assault occasioning actual bodily

:44:38.:44:43.

harm following an altercation with nightclub toilet

:44:44.:44:45.

She was sentenced to 120 hours of community service

:44:46.:44:55.

and ordered to pay her victim ?500 in compensation.

:44:56.:45:03.

21-year-old Dean Eastmond died of cancer at the weekend.

:45:04.:45:07.

The LGBT activist touched thousands of people with his frank,

:45:08.:45:10.

poignant and moving articles about living with cancer.

:45:11.:45:16.

He was diagnosed with Ewing's sarcoma, a rare form of bone

:45:17.:45:18.

This is him speaking to Attitude magazine earlier this year.

:45:19.:45:29.

Being diagnosed with cancer is exactly how you imagine it to be,

:45:30.:45:34.

like when you watch TV and you see it, dark, dingy, clammy,

:45:35.:45:37.

grey room and the doctor doesn't even know how to look

:45:38.:45:40.

They deal the news that, "Hey, you've got stage 2B Ewing's Sarcoma

:45:41.:45:53.

on your rib on the right-hand side of your chest and there's only

:45:54.:45:56.

a 50% chance that you're going to see your 21st birthday."

:45:57.:45:59.

I think it was last month when I heard that my

:46:00.:46:01.

treatment was not successful and the cancer had spread.

:46:02.:46:06.

"But we're not here to make you better.

:46:07.:46:10.

"We're here to try and stop from dying."

:46:11.:46:17.

I come across so brave and positive online,

:46:18.:46:21.

but the reality is that this is the hardest, most

:46:22.:46:24.

I try and keep it together, but it's absolutely terrifying,

:46:25.:46:34.

imagining my boyfriend pouring a bowl of cereal in the morning

:46:35.:46:37.

and accidentally getting out two bowls instead of one.

:46:38.:46:41.

Or my ten-year-old brother not getting what's going

:46:42.:46:44.

on at the moment but asking Mum in a few years' time,

:46:45.:46:47.

The thing that's got me through the last year has

:46:48.:47:02.

It sounds so cliched and so typical to say that,

:47:03.:47:11.

Knowing that I'm going into this next chapter,

:47:12.:47:15.

I know it's going to the same people who will stick around,

:47:16.:47:19.

it's the rejects and queers and queens and everything

:47:20.:47:21.

Knowing that I belong in this bubble of everything is just the most

:47:22.:47:30.

incredible thing and I'm fighting to be back in there.

:47:31.:47:44.

We were due to speak to him on this programme last week,

:47:45.:47:46.

but he had deteriorated over the previous weekend.

:47:47.:47:50.

His boyfriend and younger brother wanted to speak to us this morning -

:47:51.:47:53.

in their first interview - to pay tribute to

:47:54.:47:55.

Adam Packer is with us now along with Drew Eastmond,

:47:56.:47:58.

Dean's 18-year-old brother and Josh Fletcher, Dean's best

:47:59.:48:00.

friend who co-founded a gay lifestyle magazine

:48:01.:48:02.

This is a really difficult time for all of you. Really, really tough.

:48:03.:48:16.

But you want to tell the world about Dean. Those people who don't already

:48:17.:48:21.

know about him. Adam. How are you going to remember him? I mean

:48:22.:48:29.

personally to me he is the lip sync and twinkle in my eye and he will

:48:30.:48:35.

always be the person who wears glitter and fights what is right and

:48:36.:48:38.

doesn't take anything that he shouldn't and he would tell me off

:48:39.:48:44.

for wearing a check shirt because I wore so many check shirts and they

:48:45.:48:48.

were just awful so I'm wearing his jumper today. Are you? Yeah. And I

:48:49.:48:55.

haven't taken it off for a long time. So yeah, there is a lot to

:48:56.:49:01.

remember about Dean and a lot of people, people out there, should

:49:02.:49:05.

know as well because Dean wanted people through the cancer column to

:49:06.:49:10.

have somewhere that's accessible and first hand about a cancer experience

:49:11.:49:16.

because when he was diagnosed he got that sort of bog-standard, in the

:49:17.:49:20.

clip where it explains what might happen and the journey and what

:49:21.:49:24.

chemotherapy is like and he wasn't, it was great like, don't get me

:49:25.:49:29.

wrong, he was appreciative of what the Teenage Cancer Trust did and the

:49:30.:49:33.

support that they have given, but it wasn't everything. And I think Dean

:49:34.:49:39.

gave that really frank and honest review through the column and

:49:40.:49:43.

through his writing which gave him power. Which gave him power and

:49:44.:49:47.

which helped a lot of people. I mean that's what sharing your experience

:49:48.:49:52.

does. Drew, what he was he like as a big bro? Well, he is the only big

:49:53.:49:58.

brother you could really have. All during his journey there was the how

:49:59.:50:01.

older that he would show me, especially during the last few days,

:50:02.:50:06.

having a chat with him, sat next to his bed, he's not well, but he's

:50:07.:50:11.

making me laugh and he has the smile and that shine in his eyes which you

:50:12.:50:16.

couldn't ask for. Halfs he like to grow up with? Well, always arguing

:50:17.:50:23.

as your brothers do. So you'd wind each other up? Oh absolutely. What

:50:24.:50:29.

percentage of time would you wind each other up and what percentage of

:50:30.:50:34.

time would you get on? It's 50/50. Josh tell us about the magazine that

:50:35.:50:39.

you have founded? We have been working hand-in-hand every day. What

:50:40.:50:50.

is HISKIND is a new magazine. You can pick up lifestyle public

:50:51.:50:55.

cautions at the Tube stagsz and coffee shop, so we wanted to create

:50:56.:50:58.

a brand that's accessible to everyone in the places they love

:50:59.:51:03.

most and making it accessible to everybody. Dean, we first met about

:51:04.:51:10.

two-and-a-half years ago and his talent and the way he has been able

:51:11.:51:15.

to articulate and, he curated the whole brand. He brought it to life.

:51:16.:51:20.

He has been able to engage so many different people with the

:51:21.:51:24.

publication and I feel like I've lost, it will be tough, but I think

:51:25.:51:29.

having HISKIND he has created a legacy and it's going to give me

:51:30.:51:34.

more motivation to make sure it is a bigger success so in 20 years

:51:35.:51:38.

everyone will remember Dean via HISKIND. Let's talk more about the

:51:39.:51:42.

pieces that he wrote about his cancer experience. What stuck out

:51:43.:51:51.

for you, Adam, as his boyfriend? I think both his honesty and also the

:51:52.:51:59.

way he, if he did talk about pain or suffering, it was in quite a frank

:52:00.:52:04.

way, but also in a way that wasn't doom and gloom. Yes. And there was a

:52:05.:52:07.

lot of suffering that Dean didn't talk about and a lot that he didn't

:52:08.:52:14.

mention which is testament to him, but he was struggling, but he kept a

:52:15.:52:18.

good face on and a brave face for all of us as well. Especially for

:52:19.:52:24.

me. Was he trying to make it easier for you perhaps? He was always

:52:25.:52:29.

worried about how we would cope and how little Frazer would be in that

:52:30.:52:37.

video. He's such a sweetheart and he's watching right now. Do you

:52:38.:52:46.

reckon? Yes. One particular article, talking about his masculinity or

:52:47.:52:51.

losing his masculinity when he lost his hair? Yeah. That was really

:52:52.:52:58.

important because actually, because it feels to me that women who go

:52:59.:53:02.

through a cancer experience, it's OK to talk about losing your hair, but

:53:03.:53:08.

not necessarily for men? Yeah. That was a really odd day when he

:53:09.:53:13.

actually shaved his hair off and he woke up like, it started falling out

:53:14.:53:18.

in clumps while he showered and I didn't really know how he was going

:53:19.:53:22.

to respond to that because his hair was his pride and joy as is mine

:53:23.:53:27.

which is why I take so long to do it and he just woke up and said, "I'm

:53:28.:53:31.

going to shave it off." He took me downstairs with the shaver and I did

:53:32.:53:35.

the back and he did the rest. I don't know, with that article, he

:53:36.:53:39.

did say something really powerful with that and that is one of my

:53:40.:53:43.

favourite articles of his because he was right. A lot of people brush off

:53:44.:53:48.

losing your hair when you're a male cancer patient andits just oh, men

:53:49.:53:53.

have bald heads or like you didn't have long hair anyway, so it doesn't

:53:54.:53:56.

really matter, but it did. It really, really did. And he also

:53:57.:54:02.

suited being bald anyway. I loved him. He hated hats as well. He did

:54:03.:54:10.

hate hats. Now he couldn't go out without one. Really? We have various

:54:11.:54:15.

awards on this table. Would you like to talk our audience through them?

:54:16.:54:19.

Shall I grab them? Yeah, why not? This one is the first one Dean got

:54:20.:54:26.

and this is Attitude Pride Award from 2017. And just before Dean had

:54:27.:54:33.

to restart chemotherapy he was awarded this prize. I can't remember

:54:34.:54:37.

the venue, but it was by Attitude and it was a beautiful day and we

:54:38.:54:42.

have some wonderful memories of that day and Dean was able to meet Owen

:54:43.:54:47.

Jones who he really looked up to. He is a journalist. Yeah. And lots of

:54:48.:54:54.

people inspiring people with real stories who Dean looked up to and it

:54:55.:55:02.

was also quite poignant that it was the last weekend before he returned

:55:03.:55:07.

to chemotherapy again. Right. And that was the start of what's been

:55:08.:55:13.

the worst couple of weeks and months. What about this one? That

:55:14.:55:19.

one... That one is massive. It's massive. It's very heavy, but the

:55:20.:55:27.

British LGBT Awards had received a lot of nominations about Dean and in

:55:28.:55:34.

various categories and there was a long time before nomination close

:55:35.:55:38.

and they wanted to honour him in a way that felt fit and so they

:55:39.:55:44.

awarded him a prize, a campaigner award and we got this lovely, very,

:55:45.:55:51.

very heavy award that I don't think Dean's cat will be able to budge!

:55:52.:55:56.

And Dean was able to see that. But he wasn't able to announce that he

:55:57.:56:04.

received it on Twitter like he did with the Attitude award that he got.

:56:05.:56:17.

He did good. Yeah, he did good. He did do good. In a too short a life.

:56:18.:56:29.

That is, you may never rationalise it or be able to process it, but how

:56:30.:56:35.

do you Drew, as his brother, how do you rationalise him being taken from

:56:36.:56:40.

you at such a young age? There is no words which can describe it. I have

:56:41.:56:46.

got to remember the memories that I had when we were both young. That's

:56:47.:56:50.

all we can do. Just hold on to those memories. And keep his memory alive?

:56:51.:56:56.

Absolutely. And talk about him and come on programmes like this and

:56:57.:57:03.

talk about him and tweet about him and sorry, Josh. It has been

:57:04.:57:09.

incredible the calls and text that I have had about Dean and people who

:57:10.:57:14.

have never met him. Why do you think he inspired and touched so many

:57:15.:57:18.

people? Because he was so genuine and transparent that people can see

:57:19.:57:22.

that. They can see everything he stands for and everything that he is

:57:23.:57:27.

working hard to achieve. People said they have decided to follow their

:57:28.:57:30.

passions or change the way they are living their life. Can you read you

:57:31.:57:38.

some messages. Rich tweets, "What what an incredible young man."

:57:39.:57:43.

Another viewer says, "I'm sobbing at Victoria Live. What an amazing

:57:44.:57:49.

legacy he leaves." A tweet from another viewer, "This is a lovely

:57:50.:57:57.

tribute about Dean." Filly says "Heartbreaking interview on Victoria

:57:58.:58:05.

Live." And Carol says, "So brave of Dean's, boyfriend, brother and

:58:06.:58:09.

friend to do this tribute today. He was an inspiring, beautiful young

:58:10.:58:13.

man." He was. He was. Thank you so much. Thank you. For paying tribute

:58:14.:58:17.

on our programme to Dean. Thank you for coming on the programme.

:58:18.:58:29.

Thank you for your company today. We are back tomorrow at 9am.

:58:30.:58:34.

It's our festival in a day. How are you, my lovelies?

:58:35.:58:41.

Join us for the biggest party of the summer,

:58:42.:58:43.

with your favourite Radio 2 presenters

:58:44.:58:45.

of some of the world's most exciting artists.

:58:46.:58:50.

In an exclusive film, a former sex worker calls for the decriminalisation of the industry, saying current laws put women at risk.

Victoria discusses warnings of a 'global catastrophe' if military tensions with North Korea continue to increase.

Plus the findings of a serious case review of the death of a 21-month-old-girl who was murdered by her mother.