01/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme.

This morning, sexual harassment

at work and how to stop it.

Today we've brought together

a group of women and men -

most of whom have experienced sexual

harassment at some

point in their lives -

and in some cases, repeatedly.

Together we're going to talk

about why and what needs to change.

I'm Sarah Jane. I'm a TV presenter

and actress and I think I've been

sexually harassed up to 20 times.

I'm Michelle. I'm a nurse. I have

been a nurse for 30 years. I have

been off work for two years

following a sexual assault by a

colleague.

I'm Rebecca and when I

worked as a waitress I was sexually

harassed by my boss.

I was sexually

harassed by a high powered producer.

Also on the programme,

in an exclusive interview we hear

a second claim that Kevin Spacey

made sexual advance on another

teenage boy in the 1980s.

Kevin Spacey's representatives have

yet to comment on the allegation.

We'll bring you that full exclusive

interview in around 15 minutes time.

And, in New York, a man

is in police custody

after a terror attack killed eight

people and injured

about a dozen others.

This was an act of terror. And a

particularly cowardly act of terror

aimed at innocent civilians, aimed

at people going about their lives,

with no idea what was about to hit

them.

We'll bring you the story

throughout the programme.

Hello, welcome to the programme.

We're live until 11am.

Plenty to come from this audience

throughout the programme.

And wherever you are in the UK,

you can get in touch too

with your experience of sexual

harassment at work, and how

you think it can be dealt with.

Do get in touch - use

the hashtag Victoria live.

And if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

You can message me on Facebook and

send an e-mail as well.

Our top story today.

At least eight people have been

killed and 11 seriously

hurt in New York City,

in what officials have

described as a terror attack.

Eyewitnesses saw a white pick-up

truck driving at speed down a cycle

path in Lower Manhattan,

before it hit a number

cyclists and pedestrians.

The vehicle, continued for 20 blocks

before it smashed into a school bus.

A 29-year-old man was shot by police

before being arrested

and taken to hospital.

Our New York reporter,

Nada Tawfik, has more.

This was the scene of the deadliest

attack on New York since 9/11.

Cyclists enjoying a beautiful autumn

day, struck down by a white pick-up

truck travelling at high-speed,

leaving bodies and bicycles

scattered in its wake.

The driver's journey ends only

when he smashes into a school bus

and passers-by had to call for help

for some of the injured.

He can be seen here leaving

the vehicle and brandishing

a paintball ball and pellet gun

before being shot by police.

Eyewitnesses describe the panicked

moments when they realise

something was terribly wrong.

He was running around

like with a gun and so police came

out and then people called the cops

and so they were coming

in and the guy fired a couple

of shots before and then

there was like a shoot-out scene

like the police and the guy

and that's when they started

to close down everything

and we had to go.

He was screaming in the street.

He looked frustrated,

panicked and confused.

From there, a whole bunch

of customers started running

past me, a whole bunch of people

came running past my way

yelling, "He's got a gun.

He's got a gun."

The full force of New York's

emergency responders

swarmed the area.

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Be advised, we have

multiple people on the ground.

There is multiple

people on the ground.

We need buses.

Authorities believe this

was an act of terror aimed

at innocent civilians.

They say a note in the suspect's

vehicle referenced

the so-called Islamic State.

It's a very painful day in our city.

A horrible tragedy on Westside.

Let me be clear that based

on the information that we have

at this moment this was an act

of terror and a particularly

cowardly act of terror.

The suspect has been

identified as 29-year-old

Sayfullo Saipov who came

to the United States in 2010.

He's said to have travelled

to the East Coast from Florida

and to have worked for the company

Uber as a driver.

President Trump has been briefed

and in a series of tweets,

he promised to crackdown further

on those entering the country.

Every day thousands of New Yorkers

make their way down this bike path

on their way to work and school

and just blocks from the site

of the World Trade Center,

this attack in Lower Manhattan

is a stark reminder

that the city remains a target.

This attack happened

on one of the most festive

days in the Big Apple,

just as children prepare to go trick

or treating and New Yorkers carried

on with that tradition as normal

with the annual Hallowe'en parade in

a show of defiance and resilience.

We will bring you more from man then

later in the programme.

Rachel is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

of the rest of the day's news.

The Prime Minister has referred

the First Secretary of State,

Damian Green, to the country's most

senior civil servant,

after he was accused of making

sexual advances towards a female

Conservative activist.

The Prime Minister's

deputy has strongly denied

the allegation made by the writer,

Kate Maltby, saying

it was "deeply hurtful".

The complaint is the latest

in a string of sexual allegations

concerning Westminster.

This programme has exclusively been

told of another sexual harassment

claim against the actor Kevin

Spacey.

John - not his real name -

claims that he rebutted sexual

advances from Mr Spacey

after meeting him at

a summer theatre school

when he was 17 in the 1980s.

Earlier this week, Spacey apologised

after being accused of making

a sexual advance towards child actor

Anthony Rapp, who was 14.

We have approached Kevin Spacey's

representatives for a comment,

but have not yet

received a response.

Labour will try to force

the Government to disclose

the likely impact of Brexit

on different sectors of the economy.

The Government has confirmed that 58

reports looking at different sectors

of the economy have been prepared.

But it is resisting calls

to publish them, saying to do

so would undermine the UK's

negotiating position

in Brexit talks.

A government commissioned report

will be published today,

which aims to identify what lessons

can be learnt from the

experiences of families

of the Hillsborough disaster.

It will include the conduct of past

police investigations and look at

the families engagement with public

authorities over the last 28 years.

Written by the former Bishop of

Liverpool, James Jones, it is intend

to help the authorities respond to

future disasters.

The restored Hastings Pier

in Sussex, which was devastated

by fire seven years ago,

has won Britain's most

prestigious architecture award,

the Stirling Prize.

The judges said it was a

"phoenix risen from the ashes".

The new structure uses timber

reclaimed from the original

Victorian pier and scorched wood

cladding on its visitors centre.

Now, if you're a fan

of the Great British Bake Off

but haven't yet seen the final,

you might want to look

away for a minute.

Last night saw the three finalists

do battle with a fiendishly

complicated set of tasks before

Sophie Faldo, a former Army officer,

emerged as the winner.

It was meant to be one

of television's most closely guarded

secrets, but new judge Prue Leith,

mistakenly tweeted the result

earlier in the day after mixing

up her times zones while travelling.

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30am.

Thank you very much.

In the next few minutes we are going

to talk to a group of people that we

have brought together from all walks

of life, from the NHS, the education

sector, the entertainment world,

from politics, to talk about one of

the big issues that is making the

headlines on a daily basis, sexual

harassment and in particular at work

and we appreciate there is a huge

spectrum when it comes to sexual

harassment from hands on a knee, at

one end, to being discouraged from

reporting a rape at the other end.

We're going to talk about people's

individual experiences. We're going

to talk about what should be done

and we're going to talk about

whether some feel there is now a

witch-hunt against certain sectors.

Your own experiences are welcome. As

you know on this programme, wherever

you are in the country, send us your

own thoughts and your own pertinent

experiences and we will feed them in

through the conversation through

this morning's programme.

Let's get some sport now with Holly

and Chelsea have become the first

English side to lose

a Champions League match this season

- manager Antonio Conte

isn't too happy is he?

They are not happy. It was more of a

fright night for Chelsea and

probably not the home coming that

Antonio Conte envisaged last night,

losing 3-0 to Roma in what can only

be described as a shambolic

defensive performance. They went

behind in less than 40 seconds after

this stunning strike. After that,

Victoria, it just went from bad to

worse. Afterwards Conte had strong

words for his players. He said they

need to find the hunger from last

season and dig deep and he just

seemed to be at a loss as to what

went wrong particularly in the

second half which was particularly

poor for Chelsea in what was their

worst defeat in more than a year.

Here is what the manager had to say

afterwards.

There is a great

disappointment because it was really

bad. Really bad for a team like us.

I know last season we showed a great

hunger, a great will to do something

of importance.

There was a better result for

Manchester United. They're edging

closer to remaining in the last 16

with their win last night. 2-1 at

Old Trafford against Benfica.

Celtic, it is over for them. They

lost 2-1 to Bayern Munich, but more

to come this evening. Tottenham and

Liverpool both in action later on.

We were talking on the programme

about the Parliamentary hearing into

classification in Paralympic sport

and Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson had

some strong words?

That's right. She

told the Parliamentary committee

that athletes were told they would

be kicked off teams and stripped of

funding this they complained about

this ongoing classification issue

and she is calling for an

independent review into this system

after saying the culture was

somewhere between control and

bullying and those are pretty harsh

words. Let's hear from her.

Great

Britain should be the gold standard

of integrity and independence and we

should have an open discussion about

IM and about misclassification, but

actually, where we are now, in the

Paralympic movement, it's medals,

it's money, it's sponsorship and

it's media coverage, it's, as Liz

was talking about doping in Olympic

sport, it would be the same reason.

So you think it is the equivalent?

Not quite, but there are

similarities in terms of what it can

give you.

Harsh words. Yesterday, we also

heard from Mike ale Breen. He is the

father of the two-time world

champion Olivia braOvenlt he said he

didn't hold back, athletes were

actually frightened and they had

been intame dated over many years

and suggested that Sophie, a Gold

Medallist will been allowed to

allowed to compete in the wrong

category. Her management responded

and rejected the claims and she said

she would welcome the opportunity to

give evidence to the committee at

any point. But I think Victoria,

this is an issue that's going to

continue. Certainly, over the next

week, maybe perhaps even months, as

the issue of classification in para

disability sport continues.

Thank

you, Holly.

This morning, sexual

harassment in Hollywood,

in politics, in banks,

in the Armed Forces,

in hospitals, in offices,

in restaurants, in journalism,

in your place of work.

No walk of life is unaffected by it

and this morning, we're joined

by a group of men and women

who are here to talk

about its impact and

ultimately how it can be stopped.

Pretty much everyone

here in the audience say they have

been sexually harassed at work.

We will discuss good practise to

stop it happen. I'm going to start

with Becca. Thank you very much for

talking to us today. Tell us what

happened to you when you used to

work as a waitress?

I was working as

a waitress and bartender. It was

zero hours contract job, minimum

wage and over a period of months I

was kind of sexually harassed by one

of my manager's...

What is that

like?

Calling me sexually derogatory

name, slapping my bum. It culminated

at one point where he took me into a

private room where the managers did

their admin work and said, "This is

the room where we have sex with our

employees."

Wow.

And the whole

thing, the whole kind of experience

had this tone of like, it's a joke

until it's not. It was done in this

kind of jovial way. I, after that,

incident in that room, I threatened

to report him for sexual harassment

and it was after this point that he

turned really sour with me and then

was kind of like nit-picking

everything I did wrong and fired me

for something which I don't think my

colleagues would have been fired

for.

And what do you think about what

happened to you?

I mean I think it

was wrong. I was quite young at the

time as well. I was 18, 19 years old

and I was really unsure about what

steps I could take. I made that

threat of I'm going to report you,

but I didn't actually know...

No,

you knew it was sexual harassment?

I

knew it was sexual harassment and I

knew that the mechanism for

reporting this existed, but I didn't

know how. I wasn't part of a union.

I was talking to co-workers about

it, but it was seen as something

that was normal, like that's just

him. That's how he is.

Wow.

And I

guess, I think like, looking back on

the experience now, I think, as you

said earlier, that it's just

something which is so horrifically

mundane and common that you find it

in all kinds of industries and as

much it was an upsetting experience,

particularly then kind of being

hounded and fired as a result of

trying to stand up for myself, I do

think it is something which is so

incredibly upsettingly common.

And

grim.

You said at the beginning of our

problem that over your career as a

TV children's presenter and actress

you have been harassed at least 20

times?

At least 20 times, yes.

Different degrees. As a performer

you accept it. You find a way of

coping it. I would find humour in

it. I did a blog last year about one

incident where I made a comedy tale,

even though the producer lost his

trousers in the Hotel room, somehow!

He wanted me to cover him in water.

I kind of made light of it. Some of

the incidents, one of -- one in

particular was quite scary. A

well-known and powerful TV

personality said he would help me.

With your career?

Yes. He would help

me to jump from kids' TV to

presenting, which was what I wanted

to do. I said, great. He said, let's

meet up. He said, in a hotel. I

said, no thank you, I've already

seen somebody lose their trousers in

a Hotel. He said, how dare you

suggest that I would do that! Then I

thought, how dare I indeed? I'm

really naughty to presume that

somebody... To presume that somebody

would want to make sexual advances

to me. I'm fourth at 11, I look like

a chipmunk, who might? He eventually

persuaded me to meet him in a hotel.

I said I wanted to talk in the four.

He said, people are looking at us,

let's go to the room. I had a

partner the time. Not my husband

now, somebody else. I said, I don't

want any funny business. I'll sit on

a chair, I don't want you near me.

And if we talk about anything else

other than my career, I'm leaving.

Went in the room, we chatted, he

seemed nice, he was helpful. I was

like, oh my goodness, this is

perhaps the first time... I have

been on 50 dinner date with people

and it has never culminated in a

job. And I thought, this person is

genuine. I said, I have to go. Thank

you so much. It's been lovely to

meet you. Stood up. He said to me,

you are really small. I was like, I

know, I'm fourth at 11. He said, how

much do you wait? He said, six

double 11. He didn't believe me.

With that he picked me up. Lots of

people take me up because I'm small.

That is rather dispiriting.

Lots of

people do. He picked me up. I

thought, here we go. He was very

tall. Not only did he pick me up he

rammed me into the wall and kissed

me very passionately. Now, I am

working class and I was a gymnast.

I'm feisty. I pushed him off me and

jumped down. I said, if you touch me

again I will scream and scream and

scream. He literally just laughed in

my face and said, something has

grown between ice -- us. I left.

They need textured me and I said, I

don't want to meet you again, thank

you. I got a barrage of abuse. He

was never going to help me. But I do

think sometimes, would I have had a

better career if I had been not such

a square girl in the bedroom? I'm

sure I wouldn't. But I think in show

business you can't help but think

that. That is not just the girls, it

is men as well.

As a performer you

are groomed to expect that. That is

orderly dispiriting. Aaron, you come

from the modelling world. You

haven't experienced a share.

I was

with a casting director. He invited

me to a location for a pirate shoot.

-- pilot should. He didn't tell me

it was his house. I ended up going

to his house. He put all this glue

on me. Took my tough off. -- top. He

said, it looks like his semen. At

that was a bit weird. But I'm a

strong character. It doesn't bother

me much. I saw that went to get a

shower at his. I came out after and

he said, there was a camera in

there. You can touch yourself if you

want. You can go back in there and

touch yourself. I was like, no. At

events and stuff, I've had my Bohm

slapped. I'm a big man. I could

easily just... But I'm not going to

do that. Because you can't do that.

It happens quite often. Obviously

now he has realised. It's mainly

when he's drunk. He thinks because I

am a model and he is a casting

director... Certain jobs I feel I

can't get because of that. Obviously

he doesn't want me to do that. I

won't do that. Certain jobs I

haven't got because of that. It's

kind of a shame but I will always do

the right thing.

Thank you. Rebecca,

good morning. Tell me about your

experience in the RAF?

When I was 20

I was attached -- detached to the

Falkland Islands as an aerospace

systems operator. I was a senior

aircraft woman at the time. As part

of the detachment I had to go to a

mountainside where I was the only

woman among 28 mixed servicemen. I

flew in by helicopter. There were 28

guys mooning me in on the helipad.

And it kind of went downhill from

there. That kind of set the tone.

The first night I was subjected to

an initiation ceremony. My camera

was on the bar at the time and

somebody took photographs. When I

came home from the detachment and

printed my photographs, I actually

have those pictures.

Can I ask what

they showed?

The guys were naked

wearing nothing but rubber gloves on

their genitals. I was fully closed.

This is kind of a regular thing that

I had heard about. And in advance of

the detachment I had kind of

expressed my resistance to going up

there. I think that we should be

able to, whatever gender you are,

you should be able to work wherever.

But I didn't feel confident that

there were structures in place to

enable that to happen. I felt very

vulnerable. I made a complaint to an

officer.

About what?

About my

vulnerability, about the initiation

ceremony, but the fact that every

single night there were guys

knocking on the door trying to come

into my bedroom. Just continual

harassment. I knew there was

something wrong but I wasn't able to

articulate it. And they flew the

officer to the mountain site and he

had a meeting with me in my bedroom.

And he silenced me by offering me a

flight on a tornado.

My gosh.

Yeah.

How did you react?

I took the

flight. And to be kind to my younger

self, it's taken me 15 years to talk

about this... I think everyone that

is here, well done. It takes a lot

to speak about anything that has

happened to you, any form of

violation. At the time I just want

to come home.

I have a statement

from the RAF. The RAF doesn't

tolerate any form of abuse.

Appropriate disciplinary action will

be taken. There have been

significant enhancements to the

complaints process in the 15 years

since these alleged incidents,

including the appointment of the

first independent service complaints

ombudsman who took office in January

of last year.

The point that Rebecca raised, it

takes a lot to speak out about these

kind of incidents. Do people agree?

Is it hard? If it is, why?

I

personally think I will never work

again after today. I don't work that

much any way. You look like a

troublemaker.

Player, do introduce

yourself.

I'm the director of the

Institute of ideas. I wanted to put

a different impression on this. I

could list all of the abuse of

things that happened to me. But I

actually feel it's a real tyranny. I

feel as if society has turned into a

Jeremy Kyle show. I actually think

it's actually hard to argue against

the me, two phenomena. And to

suggest that we need rather than

summoning testimonies, we need a

rational call standing back from

this issue. I know that when I have

said this before, I have been

accused of victim blaming,

condemning people... Obviously

people have terrible stories. But to

understand the phenomenon, sometimes

getting people to tell their stories

is not the best way to approach

something politically or as a way of

coming up with the right policies.

It is a genuine, ironically, there

is a genuine bullying atmosphere to

join in the feeding frenzy. And I

get nervous about that.

OK. Sarah

Champion, hello.

I'm Sarah Champion,

a member of Parliament for

Rotherham. I am listening to this. I

know that sex sells. The country is

titillated by this. But listening to

these stories, this isn't about sex,

this is about power. It is about

people in positions of power who can

degrade other people. Yes, they do

it through sex. But I agree with

what you are saying, we need to look

at the bigger picture and how we get

away from a culture where these

people can act without any

repercussions. Both SJ and you were

almost apologising for how it is

going to affect your career.

What do

you think about Claire's specific

point about a feeding frenzy, but

people being incited to tell their

story and that the tracks from

having a rational conversation?

One

of the things I'm particularly

uncomfortable about at the moment

with Westminster is there seems to

be the emphasis that it is the

victim's responsibility to come

forward. It is not. They are the

victims. We should be creating a

culture, stepping back, change the

systems we have in place. Let's try

as a country to grow up a bid and

stopping obsessed with what is in

people's pants and what to do with

it.

And let's look at duty of care

in institutions.

I Amanda Whelan, the assistant ODIs

of Spike. What worries me about

this, and I share the concerns

Claire has, with the greatest

respect to people and their

experiences, what we are in danger

of in creating a feeding frenzy, you

get a kind of moral authority when

you present your anecdotal

experiences. This campaign is doing

that. We are in danger of

denigrating women's power. You say

the victims don't need to give their

story. I'm afraid you do need to

give your story, if you are going to

make an accusation, because that is

how justice works. Innocent until

proven guilty. We are in danger of

forgetting that. In forgetting that

and calling mainly women victims is

creating a victim culture and taking

away women's power. That really

worries me.

There are many different

forms of abuse. It is quite rare

that women want justice in the form

of someone going to jail, someone

losing their job. What they want is

a change in the culture and to be

recognised. You don't need to name

yourself in public to do that. You

need a situation where there is an

independent body that will listen to

you.

OK. What we are talking about

here is the difference between

sexual harassment and sexual

assault. And sexual violence, which

is serious, a crime. And

inappropriate behaviour, which

whilst it can be extremely negative,

it is something for people to work

themselves without involvement of

criminalisation.

On Facebook

Holderness says, let -- can we be

clear that not all unwanted

attention is harassment. Dog is

confused. A proposition accepted is

fine, but a proposition rejected as

harassment.

That really highlighted.

We are in danger of denigrating

human interaction. It is not not

sensible to say that lots of

relationships start with a risk.

That is not saying that every woman

and man knows when a line has been

crossed. When it is sexual

harassment is more serious.

I work

in the hospitality industry. The

hospitality industry is similar to

the creative industries in that it

has similar conditions, the same

level of precariousness, zero hours

contracts.

I think we really need to focus on

and think about the culture that

exists and all the mechanisms that

actually prevent women from speaking

up and for when women do speak up,

for any grievance to not actually be

upheld and I think, you know, I

think things like zero hour

contracts, things like freelance

work, and things like, power, right.

So not having any, just being

desperate to advance your career,

having to...

And the precarious

nature of some work and some jobs in

some sectors?

I would like us to

have serious political discussions

about zero-hours contracts and once

you gender it and put it into a

discussion about sexual harassmed

and women as victims, you aren't

talking about the gig economy, you

are talking about women.

They are

not mutually exclusive.

They are a

distraction. There are serious

issues. In which case if you are a

victim in the gig economy it has

nothing to do with you being a

woman.

Jaou

Work without contracts,

work out guaranteed hours, it is

majority women. It is an incredibly

gender issue.

I suppose, it is just

a question, I suppose, my concern

is, on the one hand the danger of

trivialising serious sexual assault

in a kind of everything is thrown

into the same pot. On the other

hand, distracting from what are

serious power issues relating to

jobs and employment conditions.

Thirdly, in the midst of this,

although people here are consciously

not naming and shaming as in the

naming, there is a nervousness about

a culture in which we are pointing

the finger and people's careers are

being destroyed. People are being

named and that's nerve-wracking and

no justice.

John Mann is one of the

few men in this room. Are you

nervously awaiting some allegation

to be made against you?

No. The

differentiation between misuse of

power and the examples we're hearing

that have blighted people's lives.

Their career is not gone or their

job has not gone as well or far

worse, the problem amongst my

constituents who I am aware of are

mainly women, usually women, who

have been sexually assaulted, raped,

who haven't come forward. Who are

severely traumatised by it. It often

had disastrous horrific consequences

for them and their lives. There is a

lot of women out there like that.

There is an epidemic going on

amongst young women where young men,

I think, the boundaries have

lessened and young men feel that

there is a sense of entitlement and

I am...

Not just young men.

There is

a particular, there is a particular,

there is a change of culture. I'm

genuinely shocked by the number of

young women that I am aware of, who

have been raped.

Genuinely shocked. And the and

haven't said anything. They haven't

spoken to their parents. They

haven't spoken to the police

obviously. They haven't done

anything in relation to it and

people are fearful of doing so. And

what do we as a society do about

that? And that's why, these, what

I'm hearing isn't trivial cases, an

employer, who hits on their

employee, let me use a vendac collar

term and then pursues and harasses

them. That's not a light issue. And

so, you know, I have been banging on

about this in Parliament for quite

some years. We are at the top of the

pyramid in terms of what people look

at and if MPs behave like that then

we don't want those people, I don't

want those people as MPs.

I want to

ask you about the story that emerged

today involving a writer, and

academic called Kate Maltby writing

in the Times today about Damian

Green who is a Conservative MP and

described as the First Secretary of

State. That's his job, he is

effectively Theresa May's

right-hand, or deputy, if you like.

Kate Maltby writes, "Damian Green

offered me career advice and in the

same breath made it clear he was

sexually interested." ." She says he

told her his wife was very

understanding. Kate Maltby said that

experience made her angry. Damian

Green said the claims are untrue and

deeply hurtful. Kate Maltby says

that effectively he touched her

knee. Fleetingly, she uses that word

fleetingly and then sometime after,

sent a suggestive text to her.

Is that harassment?

It is a

fundamental misuse of power. This

man is number two in the country. He

is Deputy Prime Minister. He is a

very senior politician and if he

wants to go try and have some

ex-martial relationship with

someone, that's not our business.

Well he says...

That's not our

business at all, but if he did, and

that seems to be what she is

suggesting he was doing then that's

not our business. However, if that's

connected in with careers advice,

when he is a person who can assist

and give that advice and help and he

is, like I would be in that

situation, if someone said, "How can

I become a Labour MP? Will you give

me advice?" I get young woman who

come and ask that. I give them

advice. If I was to make that kind

of proposal to them in any way,

that's a fundamental misuse of

power.

Does anyone disagree on that

point about Damian Green and the

differing accounts of what happened?

Absolutely. This is bordering on the

insane. We have got somebody who

sent a text and fleetingly touched

someone's knee which isn't a matter

of, it has got nothing do with his

role as an MP. He gave careers

advice. So if he was pinning her and

said, "If you don't do this, you

will get fired." That would be a

different matter. This is an

uncomfortable personal interaction

which has been used to get a part of

the Me Two campaign. I'm perturbed.

It is a personal affair. What we are

doing here is saying, women can't

handle having texts sent to them. I

find that more insulting than

anything a pervy old bloke would

say.

You have no idea whatsoever if

she can handle.

We are in danger of

saying every time a woman has an

experience like this, she is

tainted, it will affect her forever.

You are undermining women's ability

to be hard necked. It formed most of

the feminist movements in the past

that women were tough and strong.

For her to come forward, there is a

lot at stake and it is exactly these

stories which show how ingrained

this issue is at.

What's at stake?

I

don't want to talk about Kate

Maltby.

To speak out about

harassment...

I'm going to pause you

because Damian Green has been spoken

to by reporters. Let's have a

listen. Have a watch.

REPORTER: Is that Downing Street

investigate you?

All the allegations are completely

false. Thank you very much.

REPORTER: Do you regret your

behaviour, Mr Green?

STUDIO: He repeated, "All the

allegations are completely false."

Rebecca, just finish your point.

This is exactly there, is so

indicative of the problem in society

and I think as a nation, we need to

hold up anybody that speaks out

because that is what makes it a

safer place for those women who have

been raped or...

We don't know it's

true. That's crucial.

Why would

somebody in her position start a

rumour?

Why would anyone do

anything?

Once we say that you can

be accused, based on a rumour, this

is not a powerless woman, she has

got a column this the Times. We are

not talking about some kid, she

therefore, she points the finger and

then I'm supposed to or we're

supposed to believe her. Why do we

not believe him? He denies it. We

have to believe her. That's

nerve-wracking, but some people here

have told serious horrible stories

of sexual harassment and one of my

concerns is that then when we kind

of getting the glancing hand on the

knee question, or the text, that

that actually trivialises those

serious stories. When people say,

you know, knee, crotch, rape, we are

going to make those important claims

of one individual, abusing another

individual which should be dealt

with and the book thrown at them

turn into and everyone is at it

because somebody flirts with you

inappropriately. It is very, very

dangerous.

Damian Green denies the

allegation. He says they are deeply

hurtful. What is sexual harassment.

It seems to be key to this

conversation? It is straightforward

actually, have a watch of this.

Sexual harassment can be verbal,

written or visual contact.

It may include a request

for a sexual favour.

It is unsolicited and unwelcome.

Harassment can include

sexual comments and jokes.

It can also be being forced to look

at inappropriate material.

Harassment can also be

when someone creates a hostile

or intimidating environment.

Harassment can happen to anyone,

and it can be done by anyone.

If you are being harassed at work,

you should report it.

Make sure you put

everything in writing.

Try to collect as much

evidence as you can.

Collect evidence by keeping texts,

e-mails and messages.

Raise your concerns

with your employer.

If you feel like you're not

being treated properly,

you can contact services

like Citizens Advice.

There is also information

on the BBC's Action Line website.

Search BBC, Action Line.

What did you want to say about it?

I

think a lot of people forget that it

happens to guys. Especially in the

fashion industry. There is so much

of much power in casting directors

and designers and they have got so

much money, they almost feel like,

for my case as well, people will

throw money and say, "Look, if you

take this money, I will give you

this job." It happens all the time

and I know serious stories and I

can't say it on TV. It is a serious

industry. Very corrupt.

Male actors

get that a lot. They are not even

scared, embarrassed.

Yes.

I just

think if we were talking about

bullying, we all understand the

principle that it is how that person

feels and then you go to the

evidence to try and justify it one

way or the other. Why is that not

the same when it is to do with

sexual harassment? There isn't a

sliding scale of, you know, this is

really bad sexual harassment so we

will take this seriously. It's how

it makes that individual feel and if

you feel indim tated by someone, if

you are being made to feel

uncomfortable and if it is having

lasting impact on you, that needs to

be taken seriously. That's sensible,

if you are an agency staff member,

if you are a jobbing actor or a

model, where are you meant to be

reporting this to? When you know the

industry is leaky and you will be

back listed. I could be accused of

jumping on the Me Too campaign

because of timing. I held this up

today...

This is the Me Too sign.

I'm here without most people in my

family or without most of my friends

knowing what's happened to me. And I

agree with what you have been

saying. There needs to be a

constructive argument and a change

of policy to deal with this. I've

tried that through the proper

processes.

This is in the NHS.

This

is in the NHS. I have been a nurse

for 30 years. I've worked with men

for all of my life. I've, I'm not a

model. I don't get propositioned

very often. I have been married for

25 years. And most of the time I

have managed to, you know, ninor

thing I have managed to deal with.

Something different happened to me

at work that happened with

harassment. Asking me out to a show.

Did I want a phone number?

Progressed to touching and I, I

didn't move. I didn't move. I didn't

tell this man not to do that.

You

froze?

I froze. I totally froze. I

could probably stand up when that

somebody else and that's happening

under my nose to somebody else, I

know I would stand up, but for

whatever reason I froze and talking

about power, I know that that was a

green light to that man. I told my

manager that I was feeling

uncomfortable and it progressed to a

sexual assault.

I have been off work for two years.

I'm still employed by the NHS. I

have been going through an internal

investigation process. I have been

too unwell to work because of the

trauma. I haven't really told most

people that know me. I am actually

banned from talking to my

colleagues. I jumped on this because

I have tried to raise it through the

channels within my organisation. So

for me this is something to help

what I think needs to happen. I

think women should be able to call

this out when it happens for it to

be dealt with. I have been

penalised. My wages were stopped

without telling me. I was then

apparently overpaid. I wasn't told

about that. Debt collectors

contacted me.

Also of consequences

are Allsorts of consequences. That

could lead to others not wanting to

speak out because they will think,

is it worth it?

Exactly. Having

raised it through the official

grievance process within my

organisation, the only thing I can

say is there has been a cover-up.

There is bent an amendment to my

working shifts, and amendment of

sickness meetings where the

perpetrator's name was talked about.

There are three versions of some

letters. And that was the

investigation panel's information.

There was never going to be an

independent investigation into what

happened to me, because of the

cover-up.

I want to pause that. John

Mann, I know you have to go out ten.

I want you to tell us about the four

cases you are aware that

Westminster.

I am aware of far more

than four. Four have come directly

to me. That is an incredible number.

What is the nature?

Different ends

of the spectrum. One is a serious

sexual assault allegation.

Rate? No,

but sexual assault. One is being

groped in a bar in the parliamentary

bar by an MP. Very different levels.

Two of them made formal complaints.

To the authorities or the police?

Part of the problem with Parliament

is it is not clearly the authorities

are. 12 the political party, my

political party. In both cases these

women complained. There was some

clear evidence there. And in one

case the police investigated but the

assault was abroad and the police

couldn't prosecute because they

didn't have the jurisdiction, which

is accurate. We can't prosecute

because it is not in this country.

In both cases, the Parliamentary

authorities and the political party,

nothing was done. The other two have

not made complaints because I think

they feel they won't be believed.

They feel, well, I've got over it,

it was relatively trivial. But if

someone is prepared to manhandled

someone in a parliamentary bar once,

many other times have done it? How

many other people that they done to?

That is the problem if you sweep it

under the carpet.

What is your

reaction to Labour activist Bex

Bailey telling somebody senior to

her in the Labour Party that she had

been raped and was effectively told

not to say anything because it may

damage her career?

It is appalling.

I know Bex Bailey. She is one of the

people who has advised me on how to

do take... She has become expert at

it. She is very brave in speaking

out the way she has. It is shocking

the advice she was given. It also

shows there was no system in place.

If there isn't a system in place,

where do you go? How will it be

dealt with? If there is a system in

place, people like me have got some

influence. We can challenge that

system, we can attempt to do so. If

there is no system, where do you go?

That is a huge problem.

We have told

this morning about politics,

journalism, they RAF, the NHS, the

modelling world, the media

generally. These claims all started

in Hollywood with allegations

against movie mogul Harvey

Weinstein. This week, it spread to

the actor, Kevin Spacey. In an

exclusive interview we hear claims

today that Kevin Spacey made another

separate sexual advance on a teenage

boy in the 1980s. That teenage boy

is now in his 50s and has chosen to

tell his story publicly to this

problem for the first time. He

doesn't want to reveal his identity.

We are calling him John. He says

Kevin Spacey invited him to stay at

his apartment and repeatedly asked

him to get into bed with him. John

was 17 at the time. He declined. He

slept on the sofa and he woke to

find Kevin Spacey lying on top of

him wearing only his underwear. Mr

Spacey was 26 at the time. Earlier

this week Kevin Spacey apologised

after making a sexual advance

towards then 14-year-old actor. John

Still works in the entertainment

industry. He is speaking out now to

warn about predatory behaviour. We

haven't been able to verify

everything he told us. Kevin Spacey

has not responded to our request for

a comment. He told us how he met

Kevin Spacey at a theatre school

before Mr Spacey invited him to his

home.

I went down with a friend who stayed

with a relative and I stayed with

Kevin. He took me around New York.

We went out to dinner. I met a

neighbour of his. We were in his

apartment and he showed me a great

deal of the work that he had done

and was about to do. He was about to

go into rehearsals for a long day's

journey into night, referenced in

Anthony Rapp's account. It was with

Jack Lemmon. It was his first really

big Broadway role not as an

understudy. It was a big deal for

him. I was equally impressed. And

then in the evening he became

affectionate in a way that I

certainly wasn't interested in.

What

does that mean, affectionate?

Hand

on my thigh, around my shoulder,

sitting on the couch. Rubbing my

arm. Trying to... I'm 17 at the

time. I'm not 14. I think there is a

difference. I get it. But I am

vulnerable and there was no direct

explanation of what was going on. It

came time to go to bed. He indicated

that one side of the bed would be

mine, the other side of the bed

would be his. I thanked him but told

him I would rather sleep on the

couch. He said, no, that's

ridiculous. I said, no, I think you

but I am going to stay on the couch.

He got a little testy. He said he

didn't have any extra pillows. I

said, I'm fine, I'll sleep on the

case. It was an icy good night and I

slept on the couch with my clothes

on.

How did you feel about how the

evening attended?

I thought I would

be kicked out in the morning, if not

before. He didn't threaten as much

but it felt as if it wasn't going

well at all and I misunderstood what

was going on. I was up most of the

night. As we went to sleep, he was

sobbing from his bed. I knew enough

to know that that was likely meant

to get me to respond in some way,

which I didn't. I just tried to make

it through the evening. In the

morning I woke up and his head was

on my stomach and his arms were

wrapped around my torso very

affectionately, I would suppose. It

certainly wasn't aggressive but it

was affectionate and not something I

was comfortable with as a

heterosexual male. But it wasn't

something I was going to jump out

the window over.

You woke up and he

was on top of you?

His head was on

my abdomen, yes. He was in his

underwear. I was fully clothed. And

I supposed it was some sort of New

York theatre actor good morning, but

it also made me feel very

uncomfortable. He jumped up said,

let's going get breakfast. We didn't

speak of the night before at all. We

then went out and had a day in New

York City as what I would call

friends. And as a 17-year-old who

didn't really like to talk about

feelings, it felt like everything

was going to be fine.

Can I ask,

when you woke up did you think that

he had, perhaps when you were

sleeping, had touched you in any way

or anything sexual that happened?

No. No, I didn't think that at all.

I just thought this is a very

strange way to wake up. What I had

felt was that I was being

manipulated. And that I was in over

my head. This was an adult and I was

not yet an adult. That's how it

felt. We went on to have a day in

New York. It was heady for a young

actor. It was easy to be distracted.

We met a number of people who were

well-known celebrities, throughout

the day, who he had known or whose

paths have crossed with his. We went

to a museum, we had lunch, we had

dinner, a crazy restaurant filled

with celebrities. And then back to

his house and more conversation

about him and his impending

rehearsal period. And more touching

and affectionate hugging and telling

me he thought he had been

misunderstood when we met that

summer. At the summer stock Theatre.

And at this point I burst into tears

because I just couldn't articulate

any more what was happening to me or

my response was, or how I felt about

this situation. I was scared. I

would say to his credit, he stopped.

From that point he backed off. We

went to steep the next morning. He

made sure I got to the bus map

station. Perhaps he felt he was in

over his head, I don't know. We

didn't speak again. Later in life, I

work in the entertainment industry

now, seeing him rise to fame shortly

after that time was weird. To say

the least. I never felt I had a

claim to anything or even, you know,

I needed to move on. I didn't care

necessarily to have this experience

we are having right now of speaking

other publicly about it. But again,

to hear that Anthony Rapp had his

experience and I know there are

others rule out that there is, I

feel like it's important to have

some good come of it and certainly

to let people know who work in our

industry, whether they're young

people, women or vulnerable, that

they should be vigilant and alert

and speak out. And that any culture

of intimidation and needs to be

fought against. And for those of us

like myself who have some positions

of responsibility now and authority

in the industry, we have an

obligation to keep an iMac Wright

for those who are more vulnerable

than we may be, and to make sure

those people are taken care of. To

keep on eye out. Those people should

have a special studies in the

industry because of their

vulnerability. You ask what I feel

now about this incident. You know,

if I give Kevin Spacey the benefit

of the dead, he was very stupid.

With me. -- the benefit of the

doubt. And obviously with Anthony

Rapp. He was not drunk during this,

by the way. I knew of his reply had

been that he was drunk during the

interview with Anthony Rapp. We had

we can together and there was no

alcohol involved. I was not offered

alcohol, drugs or anything like

that. We were all sober. So with me

he was either very stupid or he was

predatory. Or maybe a bowl. Whatever

the case may be I was uncomfortable

at best. Traumatised at worst.

Emotionally. I have moved on from

it. I don't have any regrets. I wish

it hadn't happened. And I hope that

other people, if they have had this

experience come forward if no other

reason than to make more aware of a

very permissive entertainment

industry. Did it ever occur to you

then to speak out to somebody in

authority, an adult, a parent? No.

I didn't tell my parents. I imagine

my sister is learning about this for

the first time. It has been

relegated to, as I have become an

adult, to the territory of a creepy

anecdote, perhaps I felt in the 80s

that this is what the gay culture

was allowable and was permissible

and maybe it was my fault or I

brought it on myself or I was

somehow giving off a vibe that I was

interested in Kevin in that way. So,

you know, these are I think probably

common feelings that come when one

is victimised.

Do you have a view as

to what you would like to see happen

to Kevin Spacey?

No. I mean, look, I

don't know what his experience has

been with other people. So, in terms

of my experience, I think for him to

know that I haven't forgotten and

that it was very confusing to me is

probably enough. I don't know him

and I don't know what his life is

like. I don't know anybody who now

knows him. But I certainly would

hope that he stops or has stopped

this type of behaviour.

You want to say something.

I query

his motives for bringing it up.

Obviously, I know nothing about it.

He said he felt empowered because

Anthony Rapid had spoken out, but he

didn't want to diminish the numbers

of women coming out to speak out. He

hasn't told us lot, but he told

friends and therapists.

Sure. It

does seem opportunistic on the

surface to me.

What would you say?

I

am not sure about this particular

algarks but I have read a lot into

the women that have come forward

about Harvey Weinstein and a lot of

them have waited a long time, but

when you hear their stories, they

are really horrendous stories and if

anyone knows about people who have

gone through a rape, whether you

want to call them victims or

whatever, it's not easy. You know,

to put that information forward,

intimate sexual details is not

something you want to share with

anyone, not your best friend or

mother or therapist, or your worst

enemy. It's very difficult. So when

you see examples of people speaking

out, maybe you think, OK, I have got

an opportunity, but not in a way to

profit. What is this guy going to

get?

Not money for it.

We have the

idea of footballers, women that had

sexual relationships with

footballers in the past and going to

the Daily Mail in the past and they

are bimbos and they are doing it for

the money. The examples for women

that speak out, they are ridiculed,

there is an actress in Italy who had

a long relationship with Harvey

Weinstein, a very difficult

relationship. She had to leave her

country because reporters are

saying, you gave it away and then

you complain. You pretend

afterwards. Well, when you go into

the details, a lot of these women

did speak out at the time. A lot of

these women went to the police and

went to their senior authorities in

the Weinstein company and went to

Harvey Weinstein's brother, Bob,

they told other directors, famous

directors who were working closely,

they told friends and family,

Gwyneth Paltrow went and told Brad

Pitt and told her parents and people

did speak out, but Harvey Weinstein

managed to silence them and paid

them off and made them sign NDAs and

had...

Briefly react to that...

He

controlled the press as well.

I know

a tiny little bit about Weinstein

having looked it up last night. It

is, I would say it is a different

situation. The Weinstein situation

is horrendous and Kevin Spacey

occasionally appears to make passes

at people and I'm sorry...

There

should be zero tolerance. It is not

OK. Language like...

Zero tolerance

of what?

Of any kind of behaviour.

Do you mean you can't proposition

someone? Is that you are saying?

I

want to get drunk and get off with a

person occasionally.

At work, in

your workplace...

No one is talking

about that.

Zero tolerance and we

are talking about Kevin Spacey when

he was 27 and a 17-year-old...

A

summer school student.

There was no

drink involved in that. Nobody

had...

Somebody said drunken

encounters and somebody said zero

tolerance. The reason I think it is

nerve-wracking is because part of

the fight for women's liberation was

partly a sexual liberation and it

was partly about having the capacity

to be treated as equals and not to

see ourselves in some kind of

Victorian, there was a time in the

Victorian era when women couldn't go

out without shab ropebs and they had

to be accompanied everywhere, there

was a curfew for them because they

were delicate flowers and they

needed to be protected from predator

men. I'm worried that 2017 is going

to end up with that if we don't get

a sense of proportion because rape

and sexual assault. Drunken fum

blings, we have all done it.

We will

talk more in the next half an hour.

We have heard a second claim that

Kevin Spacey made a sexual advance

on a teenageage boy in the 1980s. So

with me he was either very stupid or

he was predatory and or maybe a

little both.

Whatever the case maybe, I was

uncomfortable at best and

traumatised at worse.

More reaction to that interview to

come throughout the morning.

We have a studio full of guests

talking about sexual

harassment in the workplaces

across a variety of industries.

We will talk about why and what

needs to change.

We have seen Westminster playing

this out in public, what strikes me

is how difficult it is for people

who suffered abuse to gain a

resolution, any sense of justice and

there is an opportunity, Westminster

must be seen to lead on this and

with that it needs to be

independent. It has got got to be

beyond the parties.

We need more

female role models and we need

morewomen in leadership positions

and we need people to speak up and

we need a support system in place

for those people not to feel

vulnerable that they are going to

lose their jobs or not get the

investment they want and that they

will get the careers they are aiming

for.

What else needs to change?

There needs to be a safe space for

people to call in from any industry.

There needs to be a helpline to

enable people who are in

institutions like the Royal Air

Force to speak out there. Maybe

complaints procedures in place, but

I have people who contacted me who

are still serving as a result of

watching a play that I wrote about

my own experience.

What needs to

change?

The idea of the casting

couch being an unacceptable way for

both victims and the perpetrators of

moving up careers. I think that has

to really end.

Thank you. So much more from our

audience throughout the programme

this morning.

Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news.

Good morning.

At least eight people have been

killed and 11 seriously

hurt in New York City

in what officials have

described as a terror attack.

Eyewitnesses saw a white pick-up

truck driving at speed down a cycle

path in Lower Manhattan,

before it hit a number

cyclists and pedestrians.

A 29-year-old man was shot by police

before being arrested

and taken to hospital.

The Mayor of New York, Bill de

Blasio has condemned the attack.

That this action was intended to

break our spirit. New Yorkers are

strong. New Yorkers are resilient

and our spirit will never be moved

by an act of violence and an act

meant to intimidate usment we have

been tested before as a city, very

near the site of today's tragedy and

New Yorkers do not give in in the

face of these kinds of actions.

The Prime Minister has referred

the First Secretary of State,

Damian Green, to the country's most

senior civil servant,

after he was accused of making

sexual advances towards a female

Conservative activist.

Mr Green has strongly

denied the allegation made

by the writer, Kate Maltby,

saying it was "deeply hurtful".

We can now speak to our Assistant

Political Editor Norman Smith.

Norman.

Well, Damian Green, as you

say, overnight categorically denied

the allegation saying they were

completely and absolutely untrue. He

says he's shocked and hurt by them

and regarded the individual, Kate

Maltby, as a friend. Although he has

been referred to the Cabinet Office

for investigation, Downing Street

are pointing out that's the normal

procedure that always applies when

any minister is facing these

complaints and is not a suggestion

that Mr Green might be guilty or

involved in these allegations. As

for Mr Green himself, he has

instructed a firm of liable lawyers

to pursue anyone who makes

defamatory comments about him and

this was his reaction as he was

leaving home this morning.

REPORTER: Have you been behaving

inappropriate. Is it right that

Downing Street investigate you?

All

the allegations are completely

false.

REPORTER: Do you regret your

behaviour, Mr Green?

There Mr Green

saying all the allegations are

completely false, but perhaps the

significance here is this is just

the latest in a number of

individuals who have been prepared

to go public with these sort of

allegations. Remember yesterday we

had the Labour activist Bex Bailey

saying her claim of rape had not

been properly investigated by the

Labour Party and there is a growing

view at Westminster that perhaps we

will see more of these claims and

allegations beginning to surface as

more and more women are prepared to

come forward and to speak out.

Norman,thank you very much indeed.

Norman Smith there.

The Labour MP John Mann told us of

four cases that he is aware and that

claims are not being taken seriously

at Westminster.

In both cases the

Parliamentary authority and the

political authority, nothing was

done and women who did come forward

and complained. The other two

haven't made complaints because I

think they feel they won't be

believed. They feel I have got over

it. It was relatively trivial.

This programme has exclusively been

told of another sexual advance made

towards a teenager by the actor

Kevin Spacey.

John - not his real name -

claims that he rebutted sexual

advances from Mr Spacey

after meeting him at

a summer theatre school

when he was 17 in the 1980s.

Earlier this week Spacey apologised

after being accused of making

a sexual advance toward child actor

Anthony Rapp, who was 14.

We have approached Kevin Spacey's

representatives for a comment but

have not yet received a response.

Here is what John told us about his

encounter with the actor.

So with me

he was either very stupid or he was

predatory or maybe a little both.

Whatever the case maybe, I was

uncomfortable at best and

traumatised at worse.

John repped counting his

experiences.

A report which aims to learn lessons

from the experiences of people whose

relatives died in the Hillsborough

disaster, will be

published this morning.

It will include the conduct of past

police investigations and look

at the families' engagement

with public authorities

over the last 28 years.

Written by former Bishop

of Liverpool, the Right

Reverend James Jones,

it's intended to help

the authorities respond

to future disasters.

Man convicted of murdering Mike

Samwell has been jailed for life.

29-year-old Ryan Gibbons has been

told he will serve 27 years for

running over Mr Samwell as he stole

his Audi sports car from outside his

home in April this year.

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am.

Thank you you. Good morning. Welcome

to the programme. Today we have been

discussing sexual harassment, its

impact and how it can be challenged.

Our audience is made of up of men

and women, some of whom have been

harassed at work. We are going to

try to work out what can be done to

tackle it, to stop it in HR

departments, in schools, in society,

about how you bring up your boys,

whatever it might be. One thing that

has come up a bit already is some

men are confused about what kind of

behaviour is acceptable. Is that

acceptable for men to say that come

they are confused? What do you

think?

I actually returned to

banking after having a period out.

Sorry... I returned because I had

had two small children and took a

steep learning curve. I was called

into the manager's offers who

congratulated me on how well I was

doing. He said, let's go to lunch

and we can discuss promotion. Over

lunch he propositioned me that if we

were to go to bed together I could

next -- at the next grade up. I

needed that bringing up two young

children. I was shocked. I said

maybe some other young ladies may

take you up on that offer but I am

not that person. We got back into

the banking pool and I thought, I

have to deal with this. In the

middle of the banking hall in front

of staff and customers I said, about

that offer for a promotion to get

into bed with you, I'm sorry, I

decline, not that person. I said

that in front of everybody.

Claire,

what do you think of that?

That is

brilliant. That is an obvious

absolute example of harassment. You

called it out. That is brilliant.

That's not quite the same as an

article in the papers today which

says you have to talk to your sons

and your brothers and warn them

about talking to women. I want more

social interaction between the sexes

and not it all to be lumped in that

one.

Andy, are you one of those men

wondering if it is all right?

I

suffered sexual assault from

high-powered executives who offered

me further into my career. One thing

that worries me about this debate is

that it has become my men are the

perpetrators and that really worries

me. If I had a son now, I would want

to say to him, as a tactile man

myself, I am gay but when I talk to

women I may touch Stoney. That is

OK. I really think so. I have got a

friend, a girlfriend, who rides on

the Underground and who feels

threatened every time a man sits

beside her on the tube. That is

frightening. This is not about men

versus women. It is about

individuals. What really worried me

about the start of the MeToo

campaign was that there were people

saying, can men stop saying MeToo?

This is about women.

We have

established that.

I just wanted to

say that I'm not comfortable with

anyone saying if you can't speak up

that that is weak. I think it is

amazing what you did. This is not a

work situation. I was once on a

train. It was raining. There was an

umbrella poking in my shoulder. When

I looked around it wasn't an

umbrella. It was a man's penis. And

I really wanted to stand up and

showed penis at the top of my voice.

But I didn't have the guts. I don't

think that makes me less of a woman.

As feminists we should stick

together and embrace all types are

women. All I did was move my

shoulder, not dare look back again

and got off the train at the next

stop. It's not we give you can't

speak out.

Alex, as an employment

lawyer, is there any advice you

would give do those men at the

moment who don't know what the

boundaries are?

It's like we said,

it's not just men. Social harassment

is unwanted conduct. It's normally

fairly obvious if something is

wanted or not. We're not saying that

shouldn't be any relations between

men and females ever. That isn't

quite what anyone is saying, I don't

think. It is clear when something is

unwanted. Men need to then, or

women, need to step back at that

point. Perhaps if a man is confused

about what is appropriate or

inappropriate in the workplace, they

should speak to their manager about

it, their human resources about it.

Perhaps there might be an equality

wrap.

You assume there is an

infrastructure. A lot of the

anecdotes we are hearing people who

are freelancers, who are jobbing.

There is no infrastructure.

It tends

to be with the perpetrators because

they are the ones in power. Whilst

it might be the agency workers or

the would-be worker looking for a

job, the person that tends to be the

one committing the harassment tends

to be someone in a fairly senior

position.

What should they do? They

ain't going to go to the HR

Department.

If someone really isn't

sure what is appropriate or

inappropriate, they could call Acas.

If there is a union in the

workplace, there will be an equality

representative.

I'm doing that thing

that men do and talking over women!

I ask myself if you would do this in

a job interview. If I was

interviewed by a woman would I say

that? If the answer is no, it is

probably not appropriate.

Most

people will know when they're

harassing someone. That is pretty

clear. You know when somebody does

unwanted and you continue to do.

Inappropriate behaviour or come ons,

off-the-cuff remarks that land