01/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


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01/11/2017

A special programme on sexual harassment in the work place and how to stop it. Plus, more claims of sexual harassment against actor Kevin Spacey.


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Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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welcome to the programme.

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This morning, sexual harassment

at work and how to stop it.

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Today we've brought together

a group of women and men -

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most of whom have experienced sexual

harassment at some

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point in their lives -

and in some cases, repeatedly.

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Together we're going to talk

about why and what needs to change.

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I'm Sarah Jane. I'm a TV presenter

and actress and I think I've been

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sexually harassed up to 20 times.

I'm Michelle. I'm a nurse. I have

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been a nurse for 30 years. I have

been off work for two years

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following a sexual assault by a

colleague.

I'm Rebecca and when I

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worked as a waitress I was sexually

harassed by my boss.

I was sexually

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harassed by a high powered producer.

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Also on the programme,

in an exclusive interview we hear

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a second claim that Kevin Spacey

made sexual advance on another

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teenage boy in the 1980s.

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Kevin Spacey's representatives have

yet to comment on the allegation.

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We'll bring you that full exclusive

interview in around 15 minutes time.

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And, in New York, a man

is in police custody

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after a terror attack killed eight

people and injured

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about a dozen others.

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This was an act of terror. And a

particularly cowardly act of terror

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aimed at innocent civilians, aimed

at people going about their lives,

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with no idea what was about to hit

them.

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We'll bring you the story

throughout the programme.

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Hello, welcome to the programme.

We're live until 11am.

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Plenty to come from this audience

throughout the programme.

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And wherever you are in the UK,

you can get in touch too

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with your experience of sexual

harassment at work, and how

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you think it can be dealt with.

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Do get in touch - use

the hashtag Victoria live.

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And if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

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You can message me on Facebook and

send an e-mail as well.

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Our top story today.

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At least eight people have been

killed and 11 seriously

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hurt in New York City,

in what officials have

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described as a terror attack.

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Eyewitnesses saw a white pick-up

truck driving at speed down a cycle

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path in Lower Manhattan,

before it hit a number

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cyclists and pedestrians.

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The vehicle, continued for 20 blocks

before it smashed into a school bus.

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A 29-year-old man was shot by police

before being arrested

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and taken to hospital.

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Our New York reporter,

Nada Tawfik, has more.

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This was the scene of the deadliest

attack on New York since 9/11.

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Cyclists enjoying a beautiful autumn

day, struck down by a white pick-up

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truck travelling at high-speed,

leaving bodies and bicycles

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scattered in its wake.

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The driver's journey ends only

when he smashes into a school bus

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and passers-by had to call for help

for some of the injured.

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He can be seen here leaving

the vehicle and brandishing

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a paintball ball and pellet gun

before being shot by police.

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Eyewitnesses describe the panicked

moments when they realise

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something was terribly wrong.

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He was running around

like with a gun and so police came

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out and then people called the cops

and so they were coming

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in and the guy fired a couple

of shots before and then

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there was like a shoot-out scene

like the police and the guy

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and that's when they started

to close down everything

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and we had to go.

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He was screaming in the street.

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He looked frustrated,

panicked and confused.

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From there, a whole bunch

of customers started running

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past me, a whole bunch of people

came running past my way

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yelling, "He's got a gun.

He's got a gun."

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The full force of New York's

emergency responders

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swarmed the area.

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ANNOUNCEMENT:

Be advised, we have

multiple people on the ground.

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There is multiple

people on the ground.

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We need buses.

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Authorities believe this

was an act of terror aimed

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at innocent civilians.

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They say a note in the suspect's

vehicle referenced

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the so-called Islamic State.

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It's a very painful day in our city.

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A horrible tragedy on Westside.

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Let me be clear that based

on the information that we have

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at this moment this was an act

of terror and a particularly

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cowardly act of terror.

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The suspect has been

identified as 29-year-old

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Sayfullo Saipov who came

to the United States in 2010.

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He's said to have travelled

to the East Coast from Florida

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and to have worked for the company

Uber as a driver.

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President Trump has been briefed

and in a series of tweets,

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he promised to crackdown further

on those entering the country.

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Every day thousands of New Yorkers

make their way down this bike path

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on their way to work and school

and just blocks from the site

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of the World Trade Center,

this attack in Lower Manhattan

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is a stark reminder

that the city remains a target.

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This attack happened

on one of the most festive

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days in the Big Apple,

just as children prepare to go trick

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or treating and New Yorkers carried

on with that tradition as normal

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with the annual Hallowe'en parade in

a show of defiance and resilience.

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We will bring you more from man then

later in the programme.

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Rachel is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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The Prime Minister has referred

the First Secretary of State,

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Damian Green, to the country's most

senior civil servant,

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after he was accused of making

sexual advances towards a female

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Conservative activist.

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The Prime Minister's

deputy has strongly denied

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the allegation made by the writer,

Kate Maltby, saying

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it was "deeply hurtful".

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The complaint is the latest

in a string of sexual allegations

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concerning Westminster.

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This programme has exclusively been

told of another sexual harassment

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claim against the actor Kevin

Spacey.

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John - not his real name -

claims that he rebutted sexual

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advances from Mr Spacey

after meeting him at

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a summer theatre school

when he was 17 in the 1980s.

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Earlier this week, Spacey apologised

after being accused of making

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a sexual advance towards child actor

Anthony Rapp, who was 14.

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We have approached Kevin Spacey's

representatives for a comment,

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but have not yet

received a response.

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Labour will try to force

the Government to disclose

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the likely impact of Brexit

on different sectors of the economy.

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The Government has confirmed that 58

reports looking at different sectors

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of the economy have been prepared.

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But it is resisting calls

to publish them, saying to do

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so would undermine the UK's

negotiating position

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in Brexit talks.

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A government commissioned report

will be published today,

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which aims to identify what lessons

can be learnt from the

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experiences of families

of the Hillsborough disaster.

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It will include the conduct of past

police investigations and look at

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the families engagement with public

authorities over the last 28 years.

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Written by the former Bishop of

Liverpool, James Jones, it is intend

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to help the authorities respond to

future disasters.

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The restored Hastings Pier

in Sussex, which was devastated

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by fire seven years ago,

has won Britain's most

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prestigious architecture award,

the Stirling Prize.

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The judges said it was a

"phoenix risen from the ashes".

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The new structure uses timber

reclaimed from the original

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Victorian pier and scorched wood

cladding on its visitors centre.

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Now, if you're a fan

of the Great British Bake Off

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but haven't yet seen the final,

you might want to look

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away for a minute.

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Last night saw the three finalists

do battle with a fiendishly

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complicated set of tasks before

Sophie Faldo, a former Army officer,

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emerged as the winner.

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It was meant to be one

of television's most closely guarded

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secrets, but new judge Prue Leith,

mistakenly tweeted the result

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earlier in the day after mixing

up her times zones while travelling.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30am.

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Thank you very much.

In the next few minutes we are going

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to talk to a group of people that we

have brought together from all walks

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of life, from the NHS, the education

sector, the entertainment world,

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from politics, to talk about one of

the big issues that is making the

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headlines on a daily basis, sexual

harassment and in particular at work

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and we appreciate there is a huge

spectrum when it comes to sexual

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harassment from hands on a knee, at

one end, to being discouraged from

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reporting a rape at the other end.

We're going to talk about people's

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individual experiences. We're going

to talk about what should be done

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and we're going to talk about

whether some feel there is now a

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witch-hunt against certain sectors.

Your own experiences are welcome. As

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you know on this programme, wherever

you are in the country, send us your

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own thoughts and your own pertinent

experiences and we will feed them in

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through the conversation through

this morning's programme.

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Let's get some sport now with Holly

and Chelsea have become the first

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English side to lose

a Champions League match this season

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- manager Antonio Conte

isn't too happy is he?

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They are not happy. It was more of a

fright night for Chelsea and

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probably not the home coming that

Antonio Conte envisaged last night,

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losing 3-0 to Roma in what can only

be described as a shambolic

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defensive performance. They went

behind in less than 40 seconds after

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this stunning strike. After that,

Victoria, it just went from bad to

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worse. Afterwards Conte had strong

words for his players. He said they

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need to find the hunger from last

season and dig deep and he just

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seemed to be at a loss as to what

went wrong particularly in the

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second half which was particularly

poor for Chelsea in what was their

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worst defeat in more than a year.

Here is what the manager had to say

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afterwards.

There is a great

disappointment because it was really

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bad. Really bad for a team like us.

I know last season we showed a great

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hunger, a great will to do something

of importance.

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There was a better result for

Manchester United. They're edging

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closer to remaining in the last 16

with their win last night. 2-1 at

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Old Trafford against Benfica.

Celtic, it is over for them. They

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lost 2-1 to Bayern Munich, but more

to come this evening. Tottenham and

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Liverpool both in action later on.

We were talking on the programme

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about the Parliamentary hearing into

classification in Paralympic sport

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and Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson had

some strong words?

That's right. She

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told the Parliamentary committee

that athletes were told they would

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be kicked off teams and stripped of

funding this they complained about

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this ongoing classification issue

and she is calling for an

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independent review into this system

after saying the culture was

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somewhere between control and

bullying and those are pretty harsh

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words. Let's hear from her.

Great

Britain should be the gold standard

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of integrity and independence and we

should have an open discussion about

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IM and about misclassification, but

actually, where we are now, in the

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Paralympic movement, it's medals,

it's money, it's sponsorship and

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it's media coverage, it's, as Liz

was talking about doping in Olympic

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sport, it would be the same reason.

So you think it is the equivalent?

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Not quite, but there are

similarities in terms of what it can

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give you.

Harsh words. Yesterday, we also

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heard from Mike ale Breen. He is the

father of the two-time world

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champion Olivia braOvenlt he said he

didn't hold back, athletes were

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actually frightened and they had

been intame dated over many years

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and suggested that Sophie, a Gold

Medallist will been allowed to

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allowed to compete in the wrong

category. Her management responded

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and rejected the claims and she said

she would welcome the opportunity to

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give evidence to the committee at

any point. But I think Victoria,

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this is an issue that's going to

continue. Certainly, over the next

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week, maybe perhaps even months, as

the issue of classification in para

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disability sport continues.

Thank

you, Holly.

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This morning, sexual

harassment in Hollywood,

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in politics, in banks,

in the Armed Forces,

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in hospitals, in offices,

in restaurants, in journalism,

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in your place of work.

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No walk of life is unaffected by it

and this morning, we're joined

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by a group of men and women

who are here to talk

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about its impact and

ultimately how it can be stopped.

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Pretty much everyone

here in the audience say they have

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been sexually harassed at work.

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We will discuss good practise to

stop it happen. I'm going to start

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with Becca. Thank you very much for

talking to us today. Tell us what

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happened to you when you used to

work as a waitress?

I was working as

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a waitress and bartender. It was

zero hours contract job, minimum

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wage and over a period of months I

was kind of sexually harassed by one

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of my manager's...

What is that

like?

Calling me sexually derogatory

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name, slapping my bum. It culminated

at one point where he took me into a

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private room where the managers did

their admin work and said, "This is

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the room where we have sex with our

employees."

Wow.

And the whole

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thing, the whole kind of experience

had this tone of like, it's a joke

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until it's not. It was done in this

kind of jovial way. I, after that,

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incident in that room, I threatened

to report him for sexual harassment

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and it was after this point that he

turned really sour with me and then

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was kind of like nit-picking

everything I did wrong and fired me

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for something which I don't think my

colleagues would have been fired

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for.

And what do you think about what

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happened to you?

I mean I think it

was wrong. I was quite young at the

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time as well. I was 18, 19 years old

and I was really unsure about what

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steps I could take. I made that

threat of I'm going to report you,

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but I didn't actually know...

No,

you knew it was sexual harassment?

I

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knew it was sexual harassment and I

knew that the mechanism for

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reporting this existed, but I didn't

know how. I wasn't part of a union.

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I was talking to co-workers about

it, but it was seen as something

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that was normal, like that's just

him. That's how he is.

Wow.

And I

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guess, I think like, looking back on

the experience now, I think, as you

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said earlier, that it's just

something which is so horrifically

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mundane and common that you find it

in all kinds of industries and as

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much it was an upsetting experience,

particularly then kind of being

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hounded and fired as a result of

trying to stand up for myself, I do

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think it is something which is so

incredibly upsettingly common.

And

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grim.

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You said at the beginning of our

problem that over your career as a

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TV children's presenter and actress

you have been harassed at least 20

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times?

At least 20 times, yes.

Different degrees. As a performer

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you accept it. You find a way of

coping it. I would find humour in

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it. I did a blog last year about one

incident where I made a comedy tale,

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even though the producer lost his

trousers in the Hotel room, somehow!

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He wanted me to cover him in water.

I kind of made light of it. Some of

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the incidents, one of -- one in

particular was quite scary. A

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well-known and powerful TV

personality said he would help me.

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With your career?

Yes. He would help

me to jump from kids' TV to

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presenting, which was what I wanted

to do. I said, great. He said, let's

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meet up. He said, in a hotel. I

said, no thank you, I've already

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seen somebody lose their trousers in

a Hotel. He said, how dare you

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suggest that I would do that! Then I

thought, how dare I indeed? I'm

0:17:110:17:20

really naughty to presume that

somebody... To presume that somebody

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would want to make sexual advances

to me. I'm fourth at 11, I look like

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a chipmunk, who might? He eventually

persuaded me to meet him in a hotel.

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I said I wanted to talk in the four.

He said, people are looking at us,

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let's go to the room. I had a

partner the time. Not my husband

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now, somebody else. I said, I don't

want any funny business. I'll sit on

0:17:470:17:52

a chair, I don't want you near me.

And if we talk about anything else

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other than my career, I'm leaving.

Went in the room, we chatted, he

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seemed nice, he was helpful. I was

like, oh my goodness, this is

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perhaps the first time... I have

been on 50 dinner date with people

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and it has never culminated in a

job. And I thought, this person is

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genuine. I said, I have to go. Thank

you so much. It's been lovely to

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meet you. Stood up. He said to me,

you are really small. I was like, I

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know, I'm fourth at 11. He said, how

much do you wait? He said, six

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double 11. He didn't believe me.

With that he picked me up. Lots of

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people take me up because I'm small.

That is rather dispiriting.

Lots of

0:18:400:18:48

people do. He picked me up. I

thought, here we go. He was very

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tall. Not only did he pick me up he

rammed me into the wall and kissed

0:18:520:18:58

me very passionately. Now, I am

working class and I was a gymnast.

0:18:580:19:05

I'm feisty. I pushed him off me and

jumped down. I said, if you touch me

0:19:050:19:14

again I will scream and scream and

scream. He literally just laughed in

0:19:140:19:18

my face and said, something has

grown between ice -- us. I left.

0:19:180:19:34

They need textured me and I said, I

don't want to meet you again, thank

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you. I got a barrage of abuse. He

was never going to help me. But I do

0:19:390:19:47

think sometimes, would I have had a

better career if I had been not such

0:19:470:19:51

a square girl in the bedroom? I'm

sure I wouldn't. But I think in show

0:19:510:19:58

business you can't help but think

that. That is not just the girls, it

0:19:580:20:02

is men as well.

As a performer you

are groomed to expect that. That is

0:20:020:20:06

orderly dispiriting. Aaron, you come

from the modelling world. You

0:20:060:20:13

haven't experienced a share.

I was

with a casting director. He invited

0:20:130:20:21

me to a location for a pirate shoot.

-- pilot should. He didn't tell me

0:20:210:20:26

it was his house. I ended up going

to his house. He put all this glue

0:20:260:20:31

on me. Took my tough off. -- top. He

said, it looks like his semen. At

0:20:310:20:43

that was a bit weird. But I'm a

strong character. It doesn't bother

0:20:430:20:46

me much. I saw that went to get a

shower at his. I came out after and

0:20:460:20:53

he said, there was a camera in

there. You can touch yourself if you

0:20:530:20:57

want. You can go back in there and

touch yourself. I was like, no. At

0:20:570:21:06

events and stuff, I've had my Bohm

slapped. I'm a big man. I could

0:21:060:21:13

easily just... But I'm not going to

do that. Because you can't do that.

0:21:130:21:19

It happens quite often. Obviously

now he has realised. It's mainly

0:21:190:21:27

when he's drunk. He thinks because I

am a model and he is a casting

0:21:270:21:31

director... Certain jobs I feel I

can't get because of that. Obviously

0:21:310:21:38

he doesn't want me to do that. I

won't do that. Certain jobs I

0:21:380:21:42

haven't got because of that. It's

kind of a shame but I will always do

0:21:420:21:46

the right thing.

Thank you. Rebecca,

good morning. Tell me about your

0:21:460:21:55

experience in the RAF?

When I was 20

I was attached -- detached to the

0:21:550:22:03

Falkland Islands as an aerospace

systems operator. I was a senior

0:22:030:22:07

aircraft woman at the time. As part

of the detachment I had to go to a

0:22:070:22:11

mountainside where I was the only

woman among 28 mixed servicemen. I

0:22:110:22:18

flew in by helicopter. There were 28

guys mooning me in on the helipad.

0:22:180:22:25

And it kind of went downhill from

there. That kind of set the tone.

0:22:250:22:32

The first night I was subjected to

an initiation ceremony. My camera

0:22:320:22:38

was on the bar at the time and

somebody took photographs. When I

0:22:380:22:42

came home from the detachment and

printed my photographs, I actually

0:22:420:22:46

have those pictures.

Can I ask what

they showed?

The guys were naked

0:22:460:22:53

wearing nothing but rubber gloves on

their genitals. I was fully closed.

0:22:530:22:58

This is kind of a regular thing that

I had heard about. And in advance of

0:22:580:23:03

the detachment I had kind of

expressed my resistance to going up

0:23:030:23:07

there. I think that we should be

able to, whatever gender you are,

0:23:070:23:12

you should be able to work wherever.

But I didn't feel confident that

0:23:120:23:18

there were structures in place to

enable that to happen. I felt very

0:23:180:23:21

vulnerable. I made a complaint to an

officer.

About what?

About my

0:23:210:23:29

vulnerability, about the initiation

ceremony, but the fact that every

0:23:290:23:34

single night there were guys

knocking on the door trying to come

0:23:340:23:36

into my bedroom. Just continual

harassment. I knew there was

0:23:360:23:42

something wrong but I wasn't able to

articulate it. And they flew the

0:23:420:23:48

officer to the mountain site and he

had a meeting with me in my bedroom.

0:23:480:23:56

And he silenced me by offering me a

flight on a tornado.

My gosh.

Yeah.

0:23:560:24:07

How did you react?

I took the

flight. And to be kind to my younger

0:24:070:24:15

self, it's taken me 15 years to talk

about this... I think everyone that

0:24:150:24:22

is here, well done. It takes a lot

to speak about anything that has

0:24:220:24:26

happened to you, any form of

violation. At the time I just want

0:24:260:24:32

to come home.

I have a statement

from the RAF. The RAF doesn't

0:24:320:24:38

tolerate any form of abuse.

Appropriate disciplinary action will

0:24:380:24:44

be taken. There have been

significant enhancements to the

0:24:440:24:49

complaints process in the 15 years

since these alleged incidents,

0:24:490:24:52

including the appointment of the

first independent service complaints

0:24:520:24:56

ombudsman who took office in January

of last year.

0:24:560:25:00

The point that Rebecca raised, it

takes a lot to speak out about these

0:25:000:25:03

kind of incidents. Do people agree?

Is it hard? If it is, why?

I

0:25:030:25:11

personally think I will never work

again after today. I don't work that

0:25:110:25:14

much any way. You look like a

troublemaker.

Player, do introduce

0:25:140:25:21

yourself.

I'm the director of the

Institute of ideas. I wanted to put

0:25:210:25:28

a different impression on this. I

could list all of the abuse of

0:25:280:25:36

things that happened to me. But I

actually feel it's a real tyranny. I

0:25:360:25:41

feel as if society has turned into a

Jeremy Kyle show. I actually think

0:25:410:25:49

it's actually hard to argue against

the me, two phenomena. And to

0:25:490:25:56

suggest that we need rather than

summoning testimonies, we need a

0:25:560:25:58

rational call standing back from

this issue. I know that when I have

0:25:580:26:04

said this before, I have been

accused of victim blaming,

0:26:040:26:11

condemning people... Obviously

people have terrible stories. But to

0:26:110:26:18

understand the phenomenon, sometimes

getting people to tell their stories

0:26:180:26:23

is not the best way to approach

something politically or as a way of

0:26:230:26:27

coming up with the right policies.

It is a genuine, ironically, there

0:26:270:26:31

is a genuine bullying atmosphere to

join in the feeding frenzy. And I

0:26:310:26:37

get nervous about that.

OK. Sarah

Champion, hello.

I'm Sarah Champion,

0:26:370:26:45

a member of Parliament for

Rotherham. I am listening to this. I

0:26:450:26:48

know that sex sells. The country is

titillated by this. But listening to

0:26:480:26:54

these stories, this isn't about sex,

this is about power. It is about

0:26:540:26:59

people in positions of power who can

degrade other people. Yes, they do

0:26:590:27:02

it through sex. But I agree with

what you are saying, we need to look

0:27:020:27:09

at the bigger picture and how we get

away from a culture where these

0:27:090:27:11

people can act without any

repercussions. Both SJ and you were

0:27:110:27:20

almost apologising for how it is

going to affect your career.

What do

0:27:200:27:25

you think about Claire's specific

point about a feeding frenzy, but

0:27:250:27:30

people being incited to tell their

story and that the tracks from

0:27:300:27:34

having a rational conversation?

One

of the things I'm particularly

0:27:340:27:38

uncomfortable about at the moment

with Westminster is there seems to

0:27:380:27:42

be the emphasis that it is the

victim's responsibility to come

0:27:420:27:47

forward. It is not. They are the

victims. We should be creating a

0:27:470:27:52

culture, stepping back, change the

systems we have in place. Let's try

0:27:520:27:56

as a country to grow up a bid and

stopping obsessed with what is in

0:27:560:28:01

people's pants and what to do with

it.

And let's look at duty of care

0:28:010:28:08

in institutions.

I Amanda Whelan, the assistant ODIs

0:28:080:28:15

of Spike. What worries me about

this, and I share the concerns

0:28:150:28:23

Claire has, with the greatest

respect to people and their

0:28:230:28:28

experiences, what we are in danger

of in creating a feeding frenzy, you

0:28:280:28:31

get a kind of moral authority when

you present your anecdotal

0:28:310:28:36

experiences. This campaign is doing

that. We are in danger of

0:28:360:28:44

denigrating women's power. You say

the victims don't need to give their

0:28:440:28:49

story. I'm afraid you do need to

give your story, if you are going to

0:28:490:28:53

make an accusation, because that is

how justice works. Innocent until

0:28:530:28:57

proven guilty. We are in danger of

forgetting that. In forgetting that

0:28:570:29:02

and calling mainly women victims is

creating a victim culture and taking

0:29:020:29:06

away women's power. That really

worries me.

There are many different

0:29:060:29:11

forms of abuse. It is quite rare

that women want justice in the form

0:29:110:29:17

of someone going to jail, someone

losing their job. What they want is

0:29:170:29:21

a change in the culture and to be

recognised. You don't need to name

0:29:210:29:25

yourself in public to do that. You

need a situation where there is an

0:29:250:29:29

independent body that will listen to

you.

OK. What we are talking about

0:29:290:29:35

here is the difference between

sexual harassment and sexual

0:29:350:29:37

assault. And sexual violence, which

is serious, a crime. And

0:29:370:29:43

inappropriate behaviour, which

whilst it can be extremely negative,

0:29:430:29:47

it is something for people to work

themselves without involvement of

0:29:470:29:50

criminalisation.

On Facebook

Holderness says, let -- can we be

0:29:500:29:56

clear that not all unwanted

attention is harassment. Dog is

0:29:560:30:02

confused. A proposition accepted is

fine, but a proposition rejected as

0:30:020:30:05

harassment.

That really highlighted.

We are in danger of denigrating

0:30:050:30:13

human interaction. It is not not

sensible to say that lots of

0:30:130:30:21

relationships start with a risk.

That is not saying that every woman

0:30:210:30:26

and man knows when a line has been

crossed. When it is sexual

0:30:260:30:29

harassment is more serious.

I work

in the hospitality industry. The

0:30:290:30:41

hospitality industry is similar to

the creative industries in that it

0:30:410:30:43

has similar conditions, the same

level of precariousness, zero hours

0:30:430:30:48

contracts.

0:30:480:31:07

I think we really need to focus on

and think about the culture that

0:31:070:31:11

exists and all the mechanisms that

actually prevent women from speaking

0:31:110:31:16

up and for when women do speak up,

for any grievance to not actually be

0:31:160:31:23

upheld and I think, you know, I

think things like zero hour

0:31:230:31:29

contracts, things like freelance

work, and things like, power, right.

0:31:290:31:34

So not having any, just being

desperate to advance your career,

0:31:340:31:38

having to...

And the precarious

nature of some work and some jobs in

0:31:380:31:43

some sectors?

I would like us to

have serious political discussions

0:31:430:31:55

about zero-hours contracts and once

you gender it and put it into a

0:31:550:31:59

discussion about sexual harassmed

and women as victims, you aren't

0:31:590:32:02

talking about the gig economy, you

are talking about women.

They are

0:32:020:32:07

not mutually exclusive.

They are a

distraction. There are serious

0:32:070:32:11

issues. In which case if you are a

victim in the gig economy it has

0:32:110:32:16

nothing to do with you being a

woman.

Jaou

Work without contracts,

0:32:160:32:24

work out guaranteed hours, it is

majority women. It is an incredibly

0:32:240:32:28

gender issue.

I suppose, it is just

a question, I suppose, my concern

0:32:280:32:34

is, on the one hand the danger of

trivialising serious sexual assault

0:32:340:32:39

in a kind of everything is thrown

into the same pot. On the other

0:32:390:32:43

hand, distracting from what are

serious power issues relating to

0:32:430:32:47

jobs and employment conditions.

Thirdly, in the midst of this,

0:32:470:32:52

although people here are consciously

not naming and shaming as in the

0:32:520:32:59

naming, there is a nervousness about

a culture in which we are pointing

0:32:590:33:02

the finger and people's careers are

being destroyed. People are being

0:33:020:33:06

named and that's nerve-wracking and

no justice.

John Mann is one of the

0:33:060:33:15

few men in this room. Are you

nervously awaiting some allegation

0:33:150:33:20

to be made against you?

No. The

differentiation between misuse of

0:33:200:33:25

power and the examples we're hearing

that have blighted people's lives.

0:33:250:33:31

Their career is not gone or their

job has not gone as well or far

0:33:310:33:39

worse, the problem amongst my

constituents who I am aware of are

0:33:390:33:43

mainly women, usually women, who

have been sexually assaulted, raped,

0:33:430:33:47

who haven't come forward. Who are

severely traumatised by it. It often

0:33:470:33:55

had disastrous horrific consequences

for them and their lives. There is a

0:33:550:33:58

lot of women out there like that.

There is an epidemic going on

0:33:580:34:02

amongst young women where young men,

I think, the boundaries have

0:34:020:34:08

lessened and young men feel that

there is a sense of entitlement and

0:34:080:34:13

I am...

Not just young men.

There is

a particular, there is a particular,

0:34:130:34:18

there is a change of culture. I'm

genuinely shocked by the number of

0:34:180:34:24

young women that I am aware of, who

have been raped.

0:34:240:34:28

Genuinely shocked. And the and

haven't said anything. They haven't

0:34:280:34:34

spoken to their parents. They

haven't spoken to the police

0:34:340:34:38

obviously. They haven't done

anything in relation to it and

0:34:380:34:43

people are fearful of doing so. And

what do we as a society do about

0:34:430:34:47

that? And that's why, these, what

I'm hearing isn't trivial cases, an

0:34:470:34:56

employer, who hits on their

employee, let me use a vendac collar

0:34:560:35:01

term and then pursues and harasses

them. That's not a light issue. And

0:35:010:35:07

so, you know, I have been banging on

about this in Parliament for quite

0:35:070:35:12

some years. We are at the top of the

pyramid in terms of what people look

0:35:120:35:16

at and if MPs behave like that then

we don't want those people, I don't

0:35:160:35:20

want those people as MPs.

I want to

ask you about the story that emerged

0:35:200:35:26

today involving a writer, and

academic called Kate Maltby writing

0:35:260:35:31

in the Times today about Damian

Green who is a Conservative MP and

0:35:310:35:34

described as the First Secretary of

State. That's his job, he is

0:35:340:35:38

effectively Theresa May's

right-hand, or deputy, if you like.

0:35:380:35:42

Kate Maltby writes, "Damian Green

offered me career advice and in the

0:35:420:35:46

same breath made it clear he was

sexually interested." ." She says he

0:35:460:35:55

told her his wife was very

understanding. Kate Maltby said that

0:35:550:35:58

experience made her angry. Damian

Green said the claims are untrue and

0:35:580:36:02

deeply hurtful. Kate Maltby says

that effectively he touched her

0:36:020:36:07

knee. Fleetingly, she uses that word

fleetingly and then sometime after,

0:36:070:36:13

sent a suggestive text to her.

Is that harassment?

It is a

0:36:130:36:20

fundamental misuse of power. This

man is number two in the country. He

0:36:200:36:23

is Deputy Prime Minister. He is a

very senior politician and if he

0:36:230:36:30

wants to go try and have some

ex-martial relationship with

0:36:300:36:34

someone, that's not our business.

Well he says...

That's not our

0:36:340:36:38

business at all, but if he did, and

that seems to be what she is

0:36:380:36:42

suggesting he was doing then that's

not our business. However, if that's

0:36:420:36:47

connected in with careers advice,

when he is a person who can assist

0:36:470:36:51

and give that advice and help and he

is, like I would be in that

0:36:510:36:56

situation, if someone said, "How can

I become a Labour MP? Will you give

0:36:560:37:01

me advice?" I get young woman who

come and ask that. I give them

0:37:010:37:05

advice. If I was to make that kind

of proposal to them in any way,

0:37:050:37:11

that's a fundamental misuse of

power.

Does anyone disagree on that

0:37:110:37:16

point about Damian Green and the

differing accounts of what happened?

0:37:160:37:20

Absolutely. This is bordering on the

insane. We have got somebody who

0:37:200:37:25

sent a text and fleetingly touched

someone's knee which isn't a matter

0:37:250:37:29

of, it has got nothing do with his

role as an MP. He gave careers

0:37:290:37:32

advice. So if he was pinning her and

said, "If you don't do this, you

0:37:320:37:37

will get fired." That would be a

different matter. This is an

0:37:370:37:41

uncomfortable personal interaction

which has been used to get a part of

0:37:410:37:47

the Me Two campaign. I'm perturbed.

It is a personal affair. What we are

0:37:470:37:55

doing here is saying, women can't

handle having texts sent to them. I

0:37:550:38:00

find that more insulting than

anything a pervy old bloke would

0:38:000:38:06

say.

You have no idea whatsoever if

she can handle.

We are in danger of

0:38:060:38:14

saying every time a woman has an

experience like this, she is

0:38:140:38:17

tainted, it will affect her forever.

You are undermining women's ability

0:38:170:38:26

to be hard necked. It formed most of

the feminist movements in the past

0:38:260:38:31

that women were tough and strong.

For her to come forward, there is a

0:38:310:38:34

lot at stake and it is exactly these

stories which show how ingrained

0:38:340:38:40

this issue is at.

What's at stake?

I

don't want to talk about Kate

0:38:400:38:46

Maltby.

To speak out about

harassment...

I'm going to pause you

0:38:460:38:51

because Damian Green has been spoken

to by reporters. Let's have a

0:38:510:38:55

listen. Have a watch.

REPORTER: Is that Downing Street

0:38:550:39:02

investigate you?

All the allegations are completely

0:39:020:39:07

false. Thank you very much.

REPORTER: Do you regret your

0:39:070:39:10

behaviour, Mr Green?

STUDIO: He repeated, "All the

0:39:100:39:19

allegations are completely false."

Rebecca, just finish your point.

0:39:190:39:24

This is exactly there, is so

indicative of the problem in society

0:39:240:39:28

and I think as a nation, we need to

hold up anybody that speaks out

0:39:280:39:33

because that is what makes it a

safer place for those women who have

0:39:330:39:37

been raped or...

We don't know it's

true. That's crucial.

Why would

0:39:370:39:43

somebody in her position start a

rumour?

Why would anyone do

0:39:430:39:47

anything?

Once we say that you can

be accused, based on a rumour, this

0:39:470:39:52

is not a powerless woman, she has

got a column this the Times. We are

0:39:520:39:57

not talking about some kid, she

therefore, she points the finger and

0:39:570:40:04

then I'm supposed to or we're

supposed to believe her. Why do we

0:40:040:40:08

not believe him? He denies it. We

have to believe her. That's

0:40:080:40:14

nerve-wracking, but some people here

have told serious horrible stories

0:40:140:40:18

of sexual harassment and one of my

concerns is that then when we kind

0:40:180:40:22

of getting the glancing hand on the

knee question, or the text, that

0:40:220:40:29

that actually trivialises those

serious stories. When people say,

0:40:290:40:38

you know, knee, crotch, rape, we are

going to make those important claims

0:40:380:40:43

of one individual, abusing another

individual which should be dealt

0:40:430:40:47

with and the book thrown at them

turn into and everyone is at it

0:40:470:40:52

because somebody flirts with you

inappropriately. It is very, very

0:40:520:40:56

dangerous.

Damian Green denies the

allegation. He says they are deeply

0:40:560:41:00

hurtful. What is sexual harassment.

It seems to be key to this

0:41:000:41:05

conversation? It is straightforward

actually, have a watch of this.

0:41:050:41:10

Sexual harassment can be verbal,

written or visual contact.

0:41:150:41:18

It may include a request

for a sexual favour.

0:41:180:41:21

It is unsolicited and unwelcome.

0:41:210:41:23

Harassment can include

sexual comments and jokes.

0:41:230:41:27

It can also be being forced to look

at inappropriate material.

0:41:270:41:32

Harassment can also be

when someone creates a hostile

0:41:320:41:35

or intimidating environment.

0:41:350:41:37

Harassment can happen to anyone,

and it can be done by anyone.

0:41:370:41:40

If you are being harassed at work,

you should report it.

0:41:400:41:45

Make sure you put

everything in writing.

0:41:450:41:50

Try to collect as much

evidence as you can.

0:41:500:41:53

Collect evidence by keeping texts,

e-mails and messages.

0:41:530:42:01

Raise your concerns

with your employer.

0:42:020:42:07

If you feel like you're not

being treated properly,

0:42:070:42:09

you can contact services

like Citizens Advice.

0:42:090:42:13

There is also information

on the BBC's Action Line website.

0:42:130:42:15

Search BBC, Action Line.

0:42:150:42:25

What did you want to say about it?

I

think a lot of people forget that it

0:42:350:42:39

happens to guys. Especially in the

fashion industry. There is so much

0:42:390:42:43

of much power in casting directors

and designers and they have got so

0:42:430:42:47

much money, they almost feel like,

for my case as well, people will

0:42:470:42:51

throw money and say, "Look, if you

take this money, I will give you

0:42:510:42:56

this job." It happens all the time

and I know serious stories and I

0:42:560:43:01

can't say it on TV. It is a serious

industry. Very corrupt.

Male actors

0:43:010:43:11

get that a lot. They are not even

scared, embarrassed.

Yes.

I just

0:43:110:43:17

think if we were talking about

bullying, we all understand the

0:43:170:43:20

principle that it is how that person

feels and then you go to the

0:43:200:43:23

evidence to try and justify it one

way or the other. Why is that not

0:43:230:43:26

the same when it is to do with

sexual harassment? There isn't a

0:43:260:43:29

sliding scale of, you know, this is

really bad sexual harassment so we

0:43:290:43:33

will take this seriously. It's how

it makes that individual feel and if

0:43:330:43:37

you feel indim tated by someone, if

you are being made to feel

0:43:370:43:42

uncomfortable and if it is having

lasting impact on you, that needs to

0:43:420:43:46

be taken seriously. That's sensible,

if you are an agency staff member,

0:43:460:43:49

if you are a jobbing actor or a

model, where are you meant to be

0:43:490:43:55

reporting this to? When you know the

industry is leaky and you will be

0:43:550:44:01

back listed. I could be accused of

jumping on the Me Too campaign

0:44:010:44:07

because of timing. I held this up

today...

This is the Me Too sign.

0:44:070:44:13

I'm here without most people in my

family or without most of my friends

0:44:130:44:17

knowing what's happened to me. And I

agree with what you have been

0:44:170:44:23

saying. There needs to be a

constructive argument and a change

0:44:230:44:28

of policy to deal with this. I've

tried that through the proper

0:44:280:44:32

processes.

This is in the NHS.

This

is in the NHS. I have been a nurse

0:44:320:44:37

for 30 years. I've worked with men

for all of my life. I've, I'm not a

0:44:370:44:45

model. I don't get propositioned

very often. I have been married for

0:44:450:44:49

25 years. And most of the time I

have managed to, you know, ninor

0:44:490:44:55

thing I have managed to deal with.

Something different happened to me

0:44:550:45:01

at work that happened with

harassment. Asking me out to a show.

0:45:010:45:07

Did I want a phone number?

Progressed to touching and I, I

0:45:070:45:15

didn't move. I didn't move. I didn't

tell this man not to do that.

You

0:45:150:45:21

froze?

I froze. I totally froze. I

could probably stand up when that

0:45:210:45:30

somebody else and that's happening

under my nose to somebody else, I

0:45:300:45:33

know I would stand up, but for

whatever reason I froze and talking

0:45:330:45:37

about power, I know that that was a

green light to that man. I told my

0:45:370:45:43

manager that I was feeling

uncomfortable and it progressed to a

0:45:430:45:50

sexual assault.

0:45:500:45:54

I have been off work for two years.

I'm still employed by the NHS. I

0:45:540:46:01

have been going through an internal

investigation process. I have been

0:46:010:46:05

too unwell to work because of the

trauma. I haven't really told most

0:46:050:46:09

people that know me. I am actually

banned from talking to my

0:46:090:46:13

colleagues. I jumped on this because

I have tried to raise it through the

0:46:130:46:21

channels within my organisation. So

for me this is something to help

0:46:210:46:29

what I think needs to happen. I

think women should be able to call

0:46:290:46:34

this out when it happens for it to

be dealt with. I have been

0:46:340:46:37

penalised. My wages were stopped

without telling me. I was then

0:46:370:46:44

apparently overpaid. I wasn't told

about that. Debt collectors

0:46:440:46:47

contacted me.

Also of consequences

are Allsorts of consequences. That

0:46:470:46:58

could lead to others not wanting to

speak out because they will think,

0:46:580:47:01

is it worth it?

Exactly. Having

raised it through the official

0:47:010:47:07

grievance process within my

organisation, the only thing I can

0:47:070:47:14

say is there has been a cover-up.

There is bent an amendment to my

0:47:140:47:21

working shifts, and amendment of

sickness meetings where the

0:47:210:47:25

perpetrator's name was talked about.

There are three versions of some

0:47:250:47:30

letters. And that was the

investigation panel's information.

0:47:300:47:36

There was never going to be an

independent investigation into what

0:47:360:47:39

happened to me, because of the

cover-up.

I want to pause that. John

0:47:390:47:44

Mann, I know you have to go out ten.

I want you to tell us about the four

0:47:440:47:49

cases you are aware that

Westminster.

I am aware of far more

0:47:490:47:57

than four. Four have come directly

to me. That is an incredible number.

0:47:570:48:03

What is the nature?

Different ends

of the spectrum. One is a serious

0:48:030:48:09

sexual assault allegation.

Rate? No,

but sexual assault. One is being

0:48:090:48:20

groped in a bar in the parliamentary

bar by an MP. Very different levels.

0:48:200:48:29

Two of them made formal complaints.

To the authorities or the police?

0:48:290:48:38

Part of the problem with Parliament

is it is not clearly the authorities

0:48:380:48:41

are. 12 the political party, my

political party. In both cases these

0:48:410:48:48

women complained. There was some

clear evidence there. And in one

0:48:480:48:53

case the police investigated but the

assault was abroad and the police

0:48:530:48:59

couldn't prosecute because they

didn't have the jurisdiction, which

0:48:590:49:03

is accurate. We can't prosecute

because it is not in this country.

0:49:030:49:08

In both cases, the Parliamentary

authorities and the political party,

0:49:080:49:11

nothing was done. The other two have

not made complaints because I think

0:49:110:49:19

they feel they won't be believed.

They feel, well, I've got over it,

0:49:190:49:24

it was relatively trivial. But if

someone is prepared to manhandled

0:49:240:49:31

someone in a parliamentary bar once,

many other times have done it? How

0:49:310:49:37

many other people that they done to?

That is the problem if you sweep it

0:49:370:49:42

under the carpet.

What is your

reaction to Labour activist Bex

0:49:420:49:46

Bailey telling somebody senior to

her in the Labour Party that she had

0:49:460:49:53

been raped and was effectively told

not to say anything because it may

0:49:530:49:57

damage her career?

It is appalling.

I know Bex Bailey. She is one of the

0:49:570:50:03

people who has advised me on how to

do take... She has become expert at

0:50:030:50:12

it. She is very brave in speaking

out the way she has. It is shocking

0:50:120:50:18

the advice she was given. It also

shows there was no system in place.

0:50:180:50:22

If there isn't a system in place,

where do you go? How will it be

0:50:220:50:27

dealt with? If there is a system in

place, people like me have got some

0:50:270:50:31

influence. We can challenge that

system, we can attempt to do so. If

0:50:310:50:36

there is no system, where do you go?

That is a huge problem.

We have told

0:50:360:50:43

this morning about politics,

journalism, they RAF, the NHS, the

0:50:430:50:48

modelling world, the media

generally. These claims all started

0:50:480:50:54

in Hollywood with allegations

against movie mogul Harvey

0:50:540:50:56

Weinstein. This week, it spread to

the actor, Kevin Spacey. In an

0:50:560:51:03

exclusive interview we hear claims

today that Kevin Spacey made another

0:51:030:51:07

separate sexual advance on a teenage

boy in the 1980s. That teenage boy

0:51:070:51:13

is now in his 50s and has chosen to

tell his story publicly to this

0:51:130:51:17

problem for the first time. He

doesn't want to reveal his identity.

0:51:170:51:22

We are calling him John. He says

Kevin Spacey invited him to stay at

0:51:220:51:26

his apartment and repeatedly asked

him to get into bed with him. John

0:51:260:51:31

was 17 at the time. He declined. He

slept on the sofa and he woke to

0:51:310:51:36

find Kevin Spacey lying on top of

him wearing only his underwear. Mr

0:51:360:51:41

Spacey was 26 at the time. Earlier

this week Kevin Spacey apologised

0:51:410:51:48

after making a sexual advance

towards then 14-year-old actor. John

0:51:480:51:52

Still works in the entertainment

industry. He is speaking out now to

0:51:520:51:57

warn about predatory behaviour. We

haven't been able to verify

0:51:570:52:02

everything he told us. Kevin Spacey

has not responded to our request for

0:52:020:52:06

a comment. He told us how he met

Kevin Spacey at a theatre school

0:52:060:52:11

before Mr Spacey invited him to his

home.

0:52:110:52:14

I went down with a friend who stayed

with a relative and I stayed with

0:52:140:52:18

Kevin. He took me around New York.

We went out to dinner. I met a

0:52:180:52:31

neighbour of his. We were in his

apartment and he showed me a great

0:52:310:52:39

deal of the work that he had done

and was about to do. He was about to

0:52:390:52:43

go into rehearsals for a long day's

journey into night, referenced in

0:52:430:52:53

Anthony Rapp's account. It was with

Jack Lemmon. It was his first really

0:52:530:52:58

big Broadway role not as an

understudy. It was a big deal for

0:52:580:53:02

him. I was equally impressed. And

then in the evening he became

0:53:020:53:09

affectionate in a way that I

certainly wasn't interested in.

What

0:53:090:53:19

does that mean, affectionate?

Hand

on my thigh, around my shoulder,

0:53:190:53:26

sitting on the couch. Rubbing my

arm. Trying to... I'm 17 at the

0:53:260:53:42

time. I'm not 14. I think there is a

difference. I get it. But I am

0:53:420:53:48

vulnerable and there was no direct

explanation of what was going on. It

0:53:480:53:52

came time to go to bed. He indicated

that one side of the bed would be

0:53:520:53:59

mine, the other side of the bed

would be his. I thanked him but told

0:53:590:54:03

him I would rather sleep on the

couch. He said, no, that's

0:54:030:54:08

ridiculous. I said, no, I think you

but I am going to stay on the couch.

0:54:080:54:13

He got a little testy. He said he

didn't have any extra pillows. I

0:54:130:54:21

said, I'm fine, I'll sleep on the

case. It was an icy good night and I

0:54:210:54:24

slept on the couch with my clothes

on.

How did you feel about how the

0:54:240:54:28

evening attended?

I thought I would

be kicked out in the morning, if not

0:54:280:54:33

before. He didn't threaten as much

but it felt as if it wasn't going

0:54:330:54:36

well at all and I misunderstood what

was going on. I was up most of the

0:54:360:54:44

night. As we went to sleep, he was

sobbing from his bed. I knew enough

0:54:440:54:52

to know that that was likely meant

to get me to respond in some way,

0:54:520:54:58

which I didn't. I just tried to make

it through the evening. In the

0:54:580:55:06

morning I woke up and his head was

on my stomach and his arms were

0:55:060:55:10

wrapped around my torso very

affectionately, I would suppose. It

0:55:100:55:15

certainly wasn't aggressive but it

was affectionate and not something I

0:55:150:55:21

was comfortable with as a

heterosexual male. But it wasn't

0:55:210:55:24

something I was going to jump out

the window over.

You woke up and he

0:55:240:55:29

was on top of you?

His head was on

my abdomen, yes. He was in his

0:55:290:55:37

underwear. I was fully clothed. And

I supposed it was some sort of New

0:55:370:55:45

York theatre actor good morning, but

it also made me feel very

0:55:450:55:50

uncomfortable. He jumped up said,

let's going get breakfast. We didn't

0:55:500:55:54

speak of the night before at all. We

then went out and had a day in New

0:55:540:56:02

York City as what I would call

friends. And as a 17-year-old who

0:56:020:56:08

didn't really like to talk about

feelings, it felt like everything

0:56:080:56:11

was going to be fine.

Can I ask,

when you woke up did you think that

0:56:110:56:17

he had, perhaps when you were

sleeping, had touched you in any way

0:56:170:56:22

or anything sexual that happened?

No. No, I didn't think that at all.

0:56:220:56:28

I just thought this is a very

strange way to wake up. What I had

0:56:280:56:33

felt was that I was being

manipulated. And that I was in over

0:56:330:56:39

my head. This was an adult and I was

not yet an adult. That's how it

0:56:390:56:43

felt. We went on to have a day in

New York. It was heady for a young

0:56:430:56:52

actor. It was easy to be distracted.

We met a number of people who were

0:56:520:56:59

well-known celebrities, throughout

the day, who he had known or whose

0:56:590:57:04

paths have crossed with his. We went

to a museum, we had lunch, we had

0:57:040:57:08

dinner, a crazy restaurant filled

with celebrities. And then back to

0:57:080:57:21

his house and more conversation

about him and his impending

0:57:210:57:24

rehearsal period. And more touching

and affectionate hugging and telling

0:57:240:57:32

me he thought he had been

misunderstood when we met that

0:57:320:57:36

summer. At the summer stock Theatre.

And at this point I burst into tears

0:57:360:57:47

because I just couldn't articulate

any more what was happening to me or

0:57:470:57:53

my response was, or how I felt about

this situation. I was scared. I

0:57:530:58:01

would say to his credit, he stopped.

From that point he backed off. We

0:58:010:58:06

went to steep the next morning. He

made sure I got to the bus map

0:58:060:58:10

station. Perhaps he felt he was in

over his head, I don't know. We

0:58:100:58:17

didn't speak again. Later in life, I

work in the entertainment industry

0:58:170:58:24

now, seeing him rise to fame shortly

after that time was weird. To say

0:58:240:58:31

the least. I never felt I had a

claim to anything or even, you know,

0:58:310:58:44

I needed to move on. I didn't care

necessarily to have this experience

0:58:440:58:48

we are having right now of speaking

other publicly about it. But again,

0:58:480:58:56

to hear that Anthony Rapp had his

experience and I know there are

0:58:560:59:00

others rule out that there is, I

feel like it's important to have

0:59:000:59:05

some good come of it and certainly

to let people know who work in our

0:59:050:59:09

industry, whether they're young

people, women or vulnerable, that

0:59:090:59:13

they should be vigilant and alert

and speak out. And that any culture

0:59:130:59:20

of intimidation and needs to be

fought against. And for those of us

0:59:200:59:24

like myself who have some positions

of responsibility now and authority

0:59:240:59:28

in the industry, we have an

obligation to keep an iMac Wright

0:59:280:59:31

for those who are more vulnerable

than we may be, and to make sure

0:59:310:59:38

those people are taken care of. To

keep on eye out. Those people should

0:59:380:59:44

have a special studies in the

industry because of their

0:59:440:59:46

vulnerability. You ask what I feel

now about this incident. You know,

0:59:460:59:53

if I give Kevin Spacey the benefit

of the dead, he was very stupid.

0:59:530:59:57

With me. -- the benefit of the

doubt. And obviously with Anthony

0:59:571:00:04

Rapp. He was not drunk during this,

by the way. I knew of his reply had

1:00:041:00:09

been that he was drunk during the

interview with Anthony Rapp. We had

1:00:091:00:14

we can together and there was no

alcohol involved. I was not offered

1:00:141:00:18

alcohol, drugs or anything like

that. We were all sober. So with me

1:00:181:00:27

he was either very stupid or he was

predatory. Or maybe a bowl. Whatever

1:00:271:00:33

the case may be I was uncomfortable

at best. Traumatised at worst.

1:00:331:00:40

Emotionally. I have moved on from

it. I don't have any regrets. I wish

1:00:401:00:49

it hadn't happened. And I hope that

other people, if they have had this

1:00:491:00:56

experience come forward if no other

reason than to make more aware of a

1:00:561:01:02

very permissive entertainment

industry. Did it ever occur to you

1:01:021:01:04

then to speak out to somebody in

authority, an adult, a parent? No.

1:01:041:01:13

I didn't tell my parents. I imagine

my sister is learning about this for

1:01:131:01:17

the first time. It has been

relegated to, as I have become an

1:01:171:01:24

adult, to the territory of a creepy

anecdote, perhaps I felt in the 80s

1:01:241:01:32

that this is what the gay culture

was allowable and was permissible

1:01:321:01:39

and maybe it was my fault or I

brought it on myself or I was

1:01:391:01:46

somehow giving off a vibe that I was

interested in Kevin in that way. So,

1:01:461:01:51

you know, these are I think probably

common feelings that come when one

1:01:511:01:56

is victimised.

Do you have a view as

to what you would like to see happen

1:01:561:02:00

to Kevin Spacey?

No. I mean, look, I

don't know what his experience has

1:02:001:02:09

been with other people. So, in terms

of my experience, I think for him to

1:02:091:02:17

know that I haven't forgotten and

that it was very confusing to me is

1:02:171:02:25

probably enough. I don't know him

and I don't know what his life is

1:02:251:02:29

like. I don't know anybody who now

knows him. But I certainly would

1:02:291:02:36

hope that he stops or has stopped

this type of behaviour.

1:02:361:02:50

You want to say something.

I query

his motives for bringing it up.

1:03:011:03:10

Obviously, I know nothing about it.

He said he felt empowered because

1:03:101:03:16

Anthony Rapid had spoken out, but he

didn't want to diminish the numbers

1:03:161:03:21

of women coming out to speak out. He

hasn't told us lot, but he told

1:03:211:03:25

friends and therapists.

Sure. It

does seem opportunistic on the

1:03:251:03:32

surface to me.

What would you say?

I

am not sure about this particular

1:03:321:03:36

algarks but I have read a lot into

the women that have come forward

1:03:361:03:39

about Harvey Weinstein and a lot of

them have waited a long time, but

1:03:391:03:42

when you hear their stories, they

are really horrendous stories and if

1:03:421:03:46

anyone knows about people who have

gone through a rape, whether you

1:03:461:03:49

want to call them victims or

whatever, it's not easy. You know,

1:03:491:03:53

to put that information forward,

intimate sexual details is not

1:03:531:03:59

something you want to share with

anyone, not your best friend or

1:03:591:04:02

mother or therapist, or your worst

enemy. It's very difficult. So when

1:04:021:04:07

you see examples of people speaking

out, maybe you think, OK, I have got

1:04:071:04:12

an opportunity, but not in a way to

profit. What is this guy going to

1:04:121:04:15

get?

Not money for it.

We have the

idea of footballers, women that had

1:04:151:04:22

sexual relationships with

footballers in the past and going to

1:04:221:04:26

the Daily Mail in the past and they

are bimbos and they are doing it for

1:04:261:04:29

the money. The examples for women

that speak out, they are ridiculed,

1:04:291:04:33

there is an actress in Italy who had

a long relationship with Harvey

1:04:331:04:37

Weinstein, a very difficult

relationship. She had to leave her

1:04:371:04:39

country because reporters are

saying, you gave it away and then

1:04:391:04:42

you complain. You pretend

afterwards. Well, when you go into

1:04:421:04:46

the details, a lot of these women

did speak out at the time. A lot of

1:04:461:04:49

these women went to the police and

went to their senior authorities in

1:04:491:04:54

the Weinstein company and went to

Harvey Weinstein's brother, Bob,

1:04:541:04:58

they told other directors, famous

directors who were working closely,

1:04:581:05:04

they told friends and family,

Gwyneth Paltrow went and told Brad

1:05:041:05:11

Pitt and told her parents and people

did speak out, but Harvey Weinstein

1:05:111:05:15

managed to silence them and paid

them off and made them sign NDAs and

1:05:151:05:20

had...

Briefly react to that...

He

controlled the press as well.

I know

1:05:201:05:28

a tiny little bit about Weinstein

having looked it up last night. It

1:05:281:05:34

is, I would say it is a different

situation. The Weinstein situation

1:05:341:05:41

is horrendous and Kevin Spacey

occasionally appears to make passes

1:05:411:05:46

at people and I'm sorry...

There

should be zero tolerance. It is not

1:05:461:05:51

OK. Language like...

Zero tolerance

of what?

Of any kind of behaviour.

1:05:511:05:59

Do you mean you can't proposition

someone? Is that you are saying?

I

1:05:591:06:04

want to get drunk and get off with a

person occasionally.

At work, in

1:06:041:06:08

your workplace...

No one is talking

about that.

Zero tolerance and we

1:06:081:06:14

are talking about Kevin Spacey when

he was 27 and a 17-year-old...

A

1:06:141:06:20

summer school student.

There was no

drink involved in that. Nobody

1:06:201:06:24

had...

Somebody said drunken

encounters and somebody said zero

1:06:241:06:31

tolerance. The reason I think it is

nerve-wracking is because part of

1:06:311:06:35

the fight for women's liberation was

partly a sexual liberation and it

1:06:351:06:40

was partly about having the capacity

to be treated as equals and not to

1:06:401:06:45

see ourselves in some kind of

Victorian, there was a time in the

1:06:451:06:49

Victorian era when women couldn't go

out without shab ropebs and they had

1:06:491:06:53

to be accompanied everywhere, there

was a curfew for them because they

1:06:531:06:57

were delicate flowers and they

needed to be protected from predator

1:06:571:07:01

men. I'm worried that 2017 is going

to end up with that if we don't get

1:07:011:07:07

a sense of proportion because rape

and sexual assault. Drunken fum

1:07:071:07:17

blings, we have all done it.

We will

talk more in the next half an hour.

1:07:171:07:24

We have heard a second claim that

Kevin Spacey made a sexual advance

1:07:241:07:29

on a teenageage boy in the 1980s. So

with me he was either very stupid or

1:07:291:07:35

he was predatory and or maybe a

little both.

1:07:351:07:40

Whatever the case maybe, I was

uncomfortable at best and

1:07:401:07:46

traumatised at worse.

More reaction to that interview to

1:07:461:07:49

come throughout the morning.

1:07:491:07:57

We have a studio full of guests

talking about sexual

1:07:571:08:00

harassment in the workplaces

across a variety of industries.

1:08:001:08:03

We will talk about why and what

needs to change.

1:08:031:08:10

We have seen Westminster playing

this out in public, what strikes me

1:08:101:08:18

is how difficult it is for people

who suffered abuse to gain a

1:08:181:08:23

resolution, any sense of justice and

there is an opportunity, Westminster

1:08:231:08:29

must be seen to lead on this and

with that it needs to be

1:08:291:08:32

independent. It has got got to be

beyond the parties.

We need more

1:08:321:08:44

female role models and we need

morewomen in leadership positions

1:08:441:08:48

and we need people to speak up and

we need a support system in place

1:08:481:08:52

for those people not to feel

vulnerable that they are going to

1:08:521:08:56

lose their jobs or not get the

investment they want and that they

1:08:561:08:59

will get the careers they are aiming

for.

What else needs to change?

1:08:591:09:05

There needs to be a safe space for

people to call in from any industry.

1:09:051:09:11

There needs to be a helpline to

enable people who are in

1:09:111:09:14

institutions like the Royal Air

Force to speak out there. Maybe

1:09:141:09:18

complaints procedures in place, but

I have people who contacted me who

1:09:181:09:21

are still serving as a result of

watching a play that I wrote about

1:09:211:09:25

my own experience.

What needs to

change?

The idea of the casting

1:09:251:09:31

couch being an unacceptable way for

both victims and the perpetrators of

1:09:311:09:35

moving up careers. I think that has

to really end.

1:09:351:09:41

Thank you. So much more from our

audience throughout the programme

1:09:411:09:44

this morning.

1:09:441:09:47

Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news.

1:09:471:09:50

Good morning.

1:09:501:09:52

At least eight people have been

killed and 11 seriously

1:09:521:09:54

hurt in New York City

in what officials have

1:09:541:09:56

described as a terror attack.

1:09:561:09:58

Eyewitnesses saw a white pick-up

truck driving at speed down a cycle

1:09:581:10:01

path in Lower Manhattan,

before it hit a number

1:10:011:10:03

cyclists and pedestrians.

1:10:031:10:06

A 29-year-old man was shot by police

before being arrested

1:10:061:10:08

and taken to hospital.

1:10:081:10:11

The Mayor of New York, Bill de

Blasio has condemned the attack.

1:10:111:10:21

That this action was intended to

break our spirit. New Yorkers are

1:10:251:10:28

strong. New Yorkers are resilient

and our spirit will never be moved

1:10:281:10:34

by an act of violence and an act

meant to intimidate usment we have

1:10:341:10:38

been tested before as a city, very

near the site of today's tragedy and

1:10:381:10:44

New Yorkers do not give in in the

face of these kinds of actions.

1:10:441:10:57

The Prime Minister has referred

the First Secretary of State,

1:10:571:11:00

Damian Green, to the country's most

senior civil servant,

1:11:001:11:02

after he was accused of making

sexual advances towards a female

1:11:021:11:05

Conservative activist.

1:11:051:11:06

Mr Green has strongly

denied the allegation made

1:11:061:11:10

by the writer, Kate Maltby,

saying it was "deeply hurtful".

1:11:101:11:13

We can now speak to our Assistant

Political Editor Norman Smith.

1:11:131:11:18

Norman.

Well, Damian Green, as you

say, overnight categorically denied

1:11:181:11:24

the allegation saying they were

completely and absolutely untrue. He

1:11:241:11:27

says he's shocked and hurt by them

and regarded the individual, Kate

1:11:271:11:32

Maltby, as a friend. Although he has

been referred to the Cabinet Office

1:11:321:11:38

for investigation, Downing Street

are pointing out that's the normal

1:11:381:11:42

procedure that always applies when

any minister is facing these

1:11:421:11:46

complaints and is not a suggestion

that Mr Green might be guilty or

1:11:461:11:50

involved in these allegations. As

for Mr Green himself, he has

1:11:501:11:55

instructed a firm of liable lawyers

to pursue anyone who makes

1:11:551:11:58

defamatory comments about him and

this was his reaction as he was

1:11:581:12:01

leaving home this morning.

REPORTER: Have you been behaving

1:12:011:12:07

inappropriate. Is it right that

Downing Street investigate you?

All

1:12:071:12:12

the allegations are completely

false.

1:12:121:12:13

REPORTER: Do you regret your

behaviour, Mr Green?

There Mr Green

1:12:131:12:21

saying all the allegations are

completely false, but perhaps the

1:12:211:12:24

significance here is this is just

the latest in a number of

1:12:241:12:27

individuals who have been prepared

to go public with these sort of

1:12:271:12:31

allegations. Remember yesterday we

had the Labour activist Bex Bailey

1:12:311:12:37

saying her claim of rape had not

been properly investigated by the

1:12:371:12:40

Labour Party and there is a growing

view at Westminster that perhaps we

1:12:401:12:44

will see more of these claims and

allegations beginning to surface as

1:12:441:12:48

more and more women are prepared to

come forward and to speak out.

1:12:481:12:52

Norman,thank you very much indeed.

Norman Smith there.

1:12:521:13:03

The Labour MP John Mann told us of

four cases that he is aware and that

1:13:031:13:08

claims are not being taken seriously

at Westminster.

In both cases the

1:13:081:13:13

Parliamentary authority and the

political authority, nothing was

1:13:131:13:15

done and women who did come forward

and complained. The other two

1:13:151:13:20

haven't made complaints because I

think they feel they won't be

1:13:201:13:24

believed. They feel I have got over

it. It was relatively trivial.

1:13:241:13:34

This programme has exclusively been

told of another sexual advance made

1:13:341:13:36

towards a teenager by the actor

Kevin Spacey.

1:13:361:13:38

John - not his real name -

claims that he rebutted sexual

1:13:381:13:41

advances from Mr Spacey

after meeting him at

1:13:411:13:44

a summer theatre school

when he was 17 in the 1980s.

1:13:441:13:47

Earlier this week Spacey apologised

after being accused of making

1:13:471:13:51

a sexual advance toward child actor

Anthony Rapp, who was 14.

1:13:511:13:54

We have approached Kevin Spacey's

representatives for a comment but

1:13:541:13:56

have not yet received a response.

1:13:561:14:02

Here is what John told us about his

encounter with the actor.

So with me

1:14:021:14:07

he was either very stupid or he was

predatory or maybe a little both.

1:14:071:14:14

Whatever the case maybe, I was

uncomfortable at best and

1:14:141:14:19

traumatised at worse.

John repped counting his

1:14:191:14:24

experiences.

1:14:241:14:28

A report which aims to learn lessons

from the experiences of people whose

1:14:281:14:31

relatives died in the Hillsborough

disaster, will be

1:14:311:14:33

published this morning.

1:14:331:14:34

It will include the conduct of past

police investigations and look

1:14:341:14:37

at the families' engagement

with public authorities

1:14:371:14:39

over the last 28 years.

1:14:391:14:41

Written by former Bishop

of Liverpool, the Right

1:14:411:14:43

Reverend James Jones,

it's intended to help

1:14:431:14:46

the authorities respond

to future disasters.

1:14:461:14:54

Man convicted of murdering Mike

Samwell has been jailed for life.

1:14:541:15:00

29-year-old Ryan Gibbons has been

told he will serve 27 years for

1:15:001:15:05

running over Mr Samwell as he stole

his Audi sports car from outside his

1:15:051:15:09

home in April this year.

1:15:091:15:10

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am.

1:15:101:15:17

Thank you you. Good morning. Welcome

to the programme. Today we have been

1:15:171:15:23

discussing sexual harassment, its

impact and how it can be challenged.

1:15:231:15:26

Our audience is made of up of men

and women, some of whom have been

1:15:261:15:31

harassed at work. We are going to

try to work out what can be done to

1:15:311:15:35

tackle it, to stop it in HR

departments, in schools, in society,

1:15:351:15:40

about how you bring up your boys,

whatever it might be. One thing that

1:15:401:15:46

has come up a bit already is some

men are confused about what kind of

1:15:461:15:49

behaviour is acceptable. Is that

acceptable for men to say that come

1:15:491:15:56

they are confused? What do you

think?

I actually returned to

1:15:561:16:03

banking after having a period out.

Sorry... I returned because I had

1:16:031:16:14

had two small children and took a

steep learning curve. I was called

1:16:141:16:18

into the manager's offers who

congratulated me on how well I was

1:16:181:16:21

doing. He said, let's go to lunch

and we can discuss promotion. Over

1:16:211:16:26

lunch he propositioned me that if we

were to go to bed together I could

1:16:261:16:30

next -- at the next grade up. I

needed that bringing up two young

1:16:301:16:36

children. I was shocked. I said

maybe some other young ladies may

1:16:361:16:41

take you up on that offer but I am

not that person. We got back into

1:16:411:16:46

the banking pool and I thought, I

have to deal with this. In the

1:16:461:16:49

middle of the banking hall in front

of staff and customers I said, about

1:16:491:16:53

that offer for a promotion to get

into bed with you, I'm sorry, I

1:16:531:16:58

decline, not that person. I said

that in front of everybody.

Claire,

1:16:581:17:03

what do you think of that?

That is

brilliant. That is an obvious

1:17:031:17:11

absolute example of harassment. You

called it out. That is brilliant.

1:17:111:17:16

That's not quite the same as an

article in the papers today which

1:17:161:17:19

says you have to talk to your sons

and your brothers and warn them

1:17:191:17:23

about talking to women. I want more

social interaction between the sexes

1:17:231:17:28

and not it all to be lumped in that

one.

Andy, are you one of those men

1:17:281:17:33

wondering if it is all right?

I

suffered sexual assault from

1:17:331:17:40

high-powered executives who offered

me further into my career. One thing

1:17:401:17:45

that worries me about this debate is

that it has become my men are the

1:17:451:17:50

perpetrators and that really worries

me. If I had a son now, I would want

1:17:501:17:54

to say to him, as a tactile man

myself, I am gay but when I talk to

1:17:541:18:02

women I may touch Stoney. That is

OK. I really think so. I have got a

1:18:021:18:12

friend, a girlfriend, who rides on

the Underground and who feels

1:18:121:18:15

threatened every time a man sits

beside her on the tube. That is

1:18:151:18:18

frightening. This is not about men

versus women. It is about

1:18:181:18:25

individuals. What really worried me

about the start of the MeToo

1:18:251:18:28

campaign was that there were people

saying, can men stop saying MeToo?

1:18:281:18:35

This is about women.

We have

established that.

I just wanted to

1:18:351:18:43

say that I'm not comfortable with

anyone saying if you can't speak up

1:18:431:18:48

that that is weak. I think it is

amazing what you did. This is not a

1:18:481:18:53

work situation. I was once on a

train. It was raining. There was an

1:18:531:18:57

umbrella poking in my shoulder. When

I looked around it wasn't an

1:18:571:19:01

umbrella. It was a man's penis. And

I really wanted to stand up and

1:19:011:19:09

showed penis at the top of my voice.

But I didn't have the guts. I don't

1:19:091:19:14

think that makes me less of a woman.

As feminists we should stick

1:19:141:19:18

together and embrace all types are

women. All I did was move my

1:19:181:19:23

shoulder, not dare look back again

and got off the train at the next

1:19:231:19:26

stop. It's not we give you can't

speak out.

Alex, as an employment

1:19:261:19:33

lawyer, is there any advice you

would give do those men at the

1:19:331:19:36

moment who don't know what the

boundaries are?

It's like we said,

1:19:361:19:43

it's not just men. Social harassment

is unwanted conduct. It's normally

1:19:431:19:51

fairly obvious if something is

wanted or not. We're not saying that

1:19:511:19:55

shouldn't be any relations between

men and females ever. That isn't

1:19:551:20:02

quite what anyone is saying, I don't

think. It is clear when something is

1:20:021:20:06

unwanted. Men need to then, or

women, need to step back at that

1:20:061:20:14

point. Perhaps if a man is confused

about what is appropriate or

1:20:141:20:19

inappropriate in the workplace, they

should speak to their manager about

1:20:191:20:24

it, their human resources about it.

Perhaps there might be an equality

1:20:241:20:28

wrap.

You assume there is an

infrastructure. A lot of the

1:20:281:20:36

anecdotes we are hearing people who

are freelancers, who are jobbing.

1:20:361:20:39

There is no infrastructure.

It tends

to be with the perpetrators because

1:20:391:20:45

they are the ones in power. Whilst

it might be the agency workers or

1:20:451:20:52

the would-be worker looking for a

job, the person that tends to be the

1:20:521:20:56

one committing the harassment tends

to be someone in a fairly senior

1:20:561:21:02

position.

What should they do? They

ain't going to go to the HR

1:21:021:21:13

Department.

If someone really isn't

sure what is appropriate or

1:21:131:21:19

inappropriate, they could call Acas.

If there is a union in the

1:21:191:21:22

workplace, there will be an equality

representative.

I'm doing that thing

1:21:221:21:27

that men do and talking over women!

I ask myself if you would do this in

1:21:271:21:34

a job interview. If I was

interviewed by a woman would I say

1:21:341:21:37

that? If the answer is no, it is

probably not appropriate.

Most

1:21:371:21:45

people will know when they're

harassing someone. That is pretty

1:21:451:21:49

clear. You know when somebody does

unwanted and you continue to do.

1:21:491:21:52

Inappropriate behaviour or come ons,

off-the-cuff remarks that land

1:21:521:21:59

badly, that is different. People

will know when it is inappropriate.

1:21:591:22:02

You know when it is harassment.

It

only becomes fairly clear when it is

1:22:021:22:08

unwanted. Someone may make an

off-the-cuff comment and it is

1:22:081:22:14

normally clear. You don't take it

any further.

My big campaign is

1:22:141:22:24

relationship education for primary

school children. This is symptomatic

1:22:241:22:27

of a situation where a lot of

children are learning about

1:22:271:22:30

relationships through their social

media, through porn. What we need is

1:22:301:22:36

for children to be taught to respect

themselves and others, to know they

1:22:361:22:42

can say no but also if somebody says

no and backs away, you have a duty

1:22:421:22:46

to back away.

That is a theme

through all state schools, probably

1:22:461:22:51

private schools as well. It is not

specifically a bit of the education.

1:22:511:23:01

It needs to be. It has to make a

difference. At least then children

1:23:011:23:05

know what the boundaries are.

I am

an entrepreneur. I am founder of the

1:23:051:23:11

Juno project and we do exactly that.

We work with girls in secondary

1:23:111:23:15

school. Girls at risk of being

excluded from school or who have

1:23:151:23:19

been excluded. We help them to

develop their self-esteem and their

1:23:191:23:22

self-confidence.

On this issue of

self-esteem and confidence, Suzy you

1:23:221:23:29

give that incredible example of

where you called out your manager in

1:23:291:23:32

front of staff and customers in the

bank. Unbelievable. You called him

1:23:321:23:37

out. Hopefully that was the end of

him. Is there a difference between a

1:23:371:23:41

woman of your age being able to do

that and women now in their 20s,

1:23:411:23:45

some of whom are saying, I couldn't

speak out, I was worried about my

1:23:451:23:51

job prospects?

I do. I think that my

mum's generation ingrained that in

1:23:511:23:55

my generation. You have to be a

stronger woman and stand up for what

1:23:551:23:59

is right. What I have to say as well

is that if we don't deal with the

1:23:591:24:04

situation there and then, we're

leaving that person open to doing it

1:24:041:24:08

to somebody else.

It also depends on

the nature of the personality. If

1:24:081:24:13

you feel you can do that. Sometimes

you can't. You are scared, you're

1:24:131:24:16

worried. Would you consider

yourself, and I'm going to use this

1:24:161:24:24

pejorative term, to be of the

snowflake generation?

Meaning?

1:24:241:24:32

Meaning you have been sexually

harassed and you have told no one?

1:24:321:24:36

Absolutely. The crazy thing is when

everybody has been talking I have

1:24:361:24:40

been sitting here thinking, oh my

gosh, what about that that happened?

1:24:401:24:44

And actually, I think we are just a

representation of the small part of

1:24:441:24:48

what this is. And that probably most

people in society can say... A lot

1:24:481:24:58

of people can say that something has

happened to me or I have escaped

1:24:581:25:01

something. I came on the programme

to tell you about how I escaped what

1:25:011:25:05

could have been horrendous. I was

pretty similar to you, SJ. As a

1:25:051:25:11

young actress in my 20s I took a

phone call from a female PA, they

1:25:111:25:17

needed an actress to do a scene. I

thought, great. It was £450 in cash

1:25:171:25:23

and I thought this was great. I'm

working behind a bar. It was in the

1:25:231:25:29

evening. I took a friend. It was in

a hotel. I went to the hotel. I

1:25:291:25:34

thought, that's a bit odd. I got

there. They said, go straight up to

1:25:341:25:39

the hotel room. I thought it was

strange. I went there. The director

1:25:391:25:43

opened the door. And he said, do

come in. He saw my friend and he

1:25:431:25:50

said, no, he can stay outside.

Anyway, the friend came in. As he

1:25:501:25:54

talks to me, he lay on the bed. The

TV was flickering, it was dark. He

1:25:541:25:59

actually went on to say and said, I

need you to go through a scene with

1:25:591:26:04

me because tomorrow we have a young

actress coming from India, she is

1:26:041:26:08

very naive, we need to go through

the scene to see how it works. When

1:26:081:26:11

she gets here in the morning we will

be able to do the scene smooth and

1:26:111:26:15

it will go well.

Our alarm bells

ringing?

I said, explaining, not

1:26:151:26:22

sure what you want to do. She said

-- he said the girl is deaf and

1:26:221:26:28

blind and she starts to regain her

senses. I said, OK, so what's

1:26:281:26:33

happening here? He said, so what we

are going to do, you and I were

1:26:331:26:36

going to the bathroom, we will be in

the shower. It's a stunning scene

1:26:361:26:41

where she slowly begins to feel her

senses coming back as she's in the

1:26:411:26:46

shower. Don't worry, your friend can

stay in the other room. Don't worry

1:26:461:26:50

about that. It is just you and I in

there together. And I thought, you,

1:26:501:26:56

you asking me to masturbate in your

shower? And he said, no, it's not

1:26:561:27:06

exactly like that. But, yes. It

would just be you and me. Your

1:27:061:27:11

friend can stay outside. I just

said, no. I would not do that. But

1:27:111:27:16

funnily enough, you can pay for my

cab home. When we left the room I

1:27:161:27:21

Fredman said to me, you know there

were two glasses of champagne

1:27:211:27:26

already poured by the bed. I

escaped.

Thank God. How Gross is

1:27:261:27:33

that! How disgusting! Let me read

this tweet. Heather is 65. She was

1:27:331:27:39

told to smile sweetly at sexual

predators and move on. But this is

1:27:391:27:44

2017, so call them out, don't let

them get away with it.

1:27:441:27:50

It is important you have raised

that. People say to me you are

1:27:501:27:58

hard-nosed, it is different. If you

are young and in a position with

1:27:581:28:01

little power, and I understand that.

Believe it or not I was once young

1:28:011:28:04

and I get the point. But I do worry

that my generation are rearing young

1:28:041:28:10

women to be fearful and frightened.

It is the balancing act between

1:28:101:28:13

those tanks. It is one thing saying

you're not going to stand for it any

1:28:131:28:18

more. Another thing to be scared. I

thought your point about being on

1:28:181:28:23

the tube... Many women I talk to are

frightened.

They get that from their

1:28:231:28:29

mums?

No, what I'm talking about is

society has put sexually predatory

1:28:291:28:37

behaviour on the same trajectory.

You can talk about victim blaming.

1:28:371:28:45

That is how I get silenced. I'm

trying to explain there is a danger

1:28:451:28:49

that the young woman will be

silenced, our that so frightened

1:28:491:28:54

that they would be walking on

eggshells in relation to human

1:28:541:28:56

relations with men.

Hang on.

There are women in care

1:28:561:29:02

homes being abused were afraid to

speak out.

In my industry if you

1:29:021:29:08

speak out, you lose your job. I'm a

musician. In my industry, if you

1:29:081:29:13

speak out, you lose your job. The

legislation that covers

1:29:131:29:17

self-employed people in the

workplace is inadequate. We are not

1:29:171:29:21

covered as self-employed people to

get a case to the employment

1:29:211:29:26

tribunal as Sony high-level

requirements. Self-employed people

1:29:261:29:29

in my industry can't match those

requirements. Not to mention the

1:29:291:29:32

fees. I spoke out against a sexual

harassment situation in my job. I

1:29:321:29:38

took a case to the employment

tribunal and I haven't worked in the

1:29:381:29:41

industry for two years. I lost 20

grands worth of work per year. I'm

1:29:411:29:48

not scared of sexual harassment. But

it is endemic in my industry and

1:29:481:29:51

people who speak out lose work.

We

have talked about employment

1:29:511:29:56

legislation and what could be made

better. Sarah Champion has talked

1:29:561:30:00

about relationship education being

mandatory in schools. What else?

I

1:30:001:30:05

also think churches can really help.

Why not? I go to a fantastic church

1:30:051:30:13

in central London. It's got an

amazing youth culture. It's got so

1:30:131:30:19

many youth. I think it's really

important that we are supporting the

1:30:191:30:23

next generation, building into the

next generation exactly what you are

1:30:231:30:26

saying. I also help out at a school.

Safeguarding is fantastic. We also

1:30:261:30:32

do a programme with my church

whizzes empowering women, giving

1:30:321:30:35

them an opportunity to speak about

young girls and women, for them to

1:30:351:30:43

be able to speak out about something

that may have happened in the life,

1:30:431:30:46

Mac to address issues and empower

them.

1:30:461:30:52

What else?

I am actually a born

again Christian myself. The whole

1:30:521:30:58

community, we have no morals...

Come

on, we can't have these sweeping

1:30:581:31:07

generalisations.

We don't. People on

the street, we talk about sexual

1:31:071:31:12

harassment, I go out and help daily.

I don't see anyone doing that. No

1:31:121:31:17

one has a heart and looks at the

women or the little kids on the

1:31:171:31:20

street, they are getting abused

every day.

That's not true.

It is

1:31:201:31:24

true.

I have a problem when someone

starts saying religion is the

1:31:241:31:31

solution. This is not about good

people who are religious. Good

1:31:311:31:37

people versus bad people. I have had

a woman in a pub shove her hand down

1:31:371:31:45

my trousers saying, "I want to know

how big it is."

Victoria...

It is

1:31:451:31:53

about terminology as well. I read on

Facebook and forgive me for not

1:31:531:31:57

remembering everything, but I am

pregnant, so you know, I can't

1:31:571:32:00

remember all things! Basically it

said something we always say this

1:32:001:32:06

many women were raped, we don't see

or this many men were raped, they

1:32:061:32:10

don't say they were this many

rapists, we say this many people

1:32:101:32:14

were a victim of domestic violence,

we don't say this many people were

1:32:141:32:19

perpetrators of domestic violence.

The onus is on the victim and you

1:32:191:32:22

have only got to look in the media

and there are a lot of men in the

1:32:221:32:27

papers who have been in the media

for domestic violence. There are a

1:32:271:32:34

lot of women who have had domestic

violence thrown at them and they are

1:32:341:32:38

not working.

Can ha can society do?

We have talked about employment

1:32:381:32:44

legislation. What else in terms of

society?

I think it is an

1:32:441:32:50

attitudinal shift. It is about

representing ourselves and others

1:32:501:32:53

and where I will go with what was

being said, we seem to be drawing

1:32:531:32:58

more and more into the individual

and less about helping each other.

1:32:581:33:04

What would help in the abuse case is

the people who observe, Harvey

1:33:041:33:08

Weinstein, speak out, say something,

challenge it.

A viewer says, "The

1:33:081:33:16

sexual harassment stories on your

programme today, thank you for

1:33:161:33:18

continuing the conversation so that

hopefully this kind of harassment

1:33:181:33:21

comes to an end." Jane, "Delighted

that your programme is highlighting

1:33:211:33:25

this. I'm 58 and I have been

subjected to inappropriate behaviour

1:33:251:33:30

at work and outside from the age of

15. I haven't got any idea of how

1:33:301:33:34

many times in total. I've stopped

counting. I have put it down to the

1:33:341:33:39

perils of being a female." Kayla

"This is about men in powerful jobs

1:33:391:33:46

who believe they can do what they

want without repercussions." Another

1:33:461:33:52

viewer says "Ke need it hear

stories." A viewer says, "I am

1:33:521:33:59

annoyed that Ella and Clare aren't

challenged as challenging claims as

1:33:591:34:07

a feeding frenzy."

I wanted to go

become to the point of men not

1:34:071:34:11

knowing what is and isn't

harassment. It reminded me that I

1:34:111:34:15

have forgotten about this situation.

A few years ago when I was working

1:34:151:34:19

for someone and I used to have to

walk to work, it was quite a long

1:34:191:34:24

way, and I would regularly get

followed home, I would be

1:34:241:34:29

constantly, you know, harassed by

certain men and I'm, I was quite a

1:34:291:34:35

feisty person when I was younger

more than I am now, I would be like

1:34:351:34:40

no, no, I would play every single

card, nice, but no thank you, and I

1:34:401:34:44

would be like can you please just

back off, I'm not interested, I'm

1:34:441:34:47

going to call the police, get off my

case to the point where myself and

1:34:471:34:52

norm work colleague, a female one,

were actually chased to work by this

1:34:521:34:59

particular man, the same guy. He ran

after us for what reason, I don't

1:34:591:35:04

know to, get our attention, to

whatever it was that he wanted to

1:35:041:35:08

do, and we both managed to get back

to work separately this is. And we

1:35:081:35:13

called the police because this was

not OK. And the police were like,

1:35:131:35:18

"We can't do anything other than

just tell him it's not OK." He

1:35:181:35:23

didn't know what he was doing was

not OK.

Did the police speak to him

1:35:231:35:27

or not?

They said that's

inappropriate and he was like,

1:35:271:35:32

"Well, it's not in my books and that

was it.

It is not a crime to run

1:35:321:35:36

after women, sadly.

No.

They spoke

to him. They did something.

To

1:35:361:35:44

defend the feeding frenzy point. I

think it has got to this level of

1:35:441:35:48

hysteria and it is unfair to say

that us talking politically about

1:35:481:35:53

what this thing has become larger

than Weinstein, it has become a

1:35:531:35:57

moral panic and to assess that

politically is not victim blaming,

1:35:571:36:01

it is not saying that you should

point at anyone who has a experience

1:36:011:36:05

and say you are lying, we don't

know, that's why it is an accusation

1:36:051:36:10

or allegation, rather than a

statement of fact. We are saying to

1:36:101:36:12

women, that it is more effective to

not say anything and po commence on

1:36:121:36:17

social media because this is a

social media phenomenon at the

1:36:171:36:21

moment the Me Too thing rather than

what the lady said and have it out

1:36:211:36:25

at the time. Everyone is different.

Of course, everyone is different. I

1:36:251:36:29

have got a hard neck and no one will

try anything on with me. That's the

1:36:291:36:33

woman I am.

How can you say that

That is not any better or worse than

1:36:331:36:38

a shy woman. That's personality.

None of us brought this on

1:36:381:36:43

ourselves. I think what you have

said is out of order.

I'm trying to

1:36:431:36:47

make a distinction and say we should

empower women.

Feeding frenzy, op

1:36:471:36:55

opportunityist, jumping on the

bandwagon...

Let her finish.

I'm

1:36:551:36:58

saying that I really want to make a

strong point about this because I

1:36:581:37:01

have had it up to there and I think

most women have. We should make a

1:37:011:37:06

point that women should feel

empowered and men to stand up to bad

1:37:061:37:11

behaviour when it happens. Roll back

to the 60s and 70s when women were

1:37:111:37:16

truly having a hard time, how dhaid

change? It changed because people

1:37:161:37:22

changed it because women stood up

for themselves. That has to happen.

1:37:221:37:25

I would like to say, OK, let's not

argue about this, we need to move

1:37:251:37:29

forward. So statementses like

feeding frenzy, he is an

1:37:291:37:36

opportunist, jmping on the

bandwagon, they are not helpful in

1:37:361:37:38

moving forward. If you think it is

hysterical, we need to audit this.

1:37:381:37:43

We need to know statistics. So there

needs to be a place where people can

1:37:431:37:49

report all of these incidents from

touching on the knee to full rape,

1:37:491:37:55

whatever, all of them are

violations. All of them are non

1:37:551:37:58

consensual. All of them are abuse of

power.

Let her finish.

People need

1:37:581:38:06

to audit that. We need to have a

national place where people can be

1:38:061:38:09

heard and listened to and

authorities need to get involved.

1:38:091:38:13

Can I very, important for that, the

reason why I'm critical about the Me

1:38:131:38:18

Too thing, I was looking into it and

one of the tweets that was popular

1:38:181:38:22

that I saw said reminder, women who

don't say Me Too have also had

1:38:221:38:26

sexual harassment experiences.

Victims don't owe you their store

1:38:261:38:29

Chris. Some of the tweets were just

Me Too, there is no fact, there is

1:38:291:38:34

no experience. If Me Too isn't

suggestive of how many it is, how

1:38:341:38:39

can we quantify it. It is a social

media phenomenon at the moment.

One

1:38:391:38:44

of the dangers about the audit

point, there is a list circulating

1:38:441:38:48

of anonymous allegations against

people, not proven and...

This is to

1:38:481:38:52

do with MPs.

To do with MPs, but

there has been one in the publishing

1:38:521:38:57

and arts world in America. People

are named as being perpetrators and

1:38:571:39:02

one of the great gains of modernity

is you have innocent until proven

1:39:021:39:09

guilty and I am worried about a

situation where and it is

1:39:091:39:12

interesting about the kind of women

should be believed, because actually

1:39:121:39:16

it depends what the woman is saying.

Julia Hartley-Brewer by the way, a

1:39:161:39:20

journalist who has been all over the

newspapers because apparently

1:39:201:39:24

somebody touched her knee. She said,

"I didn't find it inappropriate. I

1:39:241:39:28

told him goat off. He didn't do it.

No problem. She was all over the

1:39:281:39:31

newspapers. And I have been

supporting her right to say, I'm all

1:39:311:39:36

right with it. And then suddenly you

get told that you are using the

1:39:361:39:41

wrong narrative. You said what you

want is women to say only the one

1:39:411:39:45

thing, but when women maybe Ella or

Julia or other women say a different

1:39:451:39:50

thing suddenly we are the wrong kind

of women, giving the wrong kind of

1:39:501:39:54

story.

I'm going to pause there. I'm

going to try and sum up what we have

1:39:541:40:03

discussed in the last

hour-and-a-half, do you give me,

1:40:031:40:05

good luck. I'm going to need that.

It is not just women. That's, we

1:40:051:40:10

have made that clear today. We have

heard some quite astonishing in some

1:40:101:40:17

cases, utterly grim testimony from

you and I thank you for being open

1:40:171:40:20

and talking about the kind of

experiences. We have heard strongly

1:40:201:40:24

that from some people that women

should empower women to speak out

1:40:241:40:27

now and to not worry about that, but

we have discussed that it it is down

1:40:271:40:31

the nature of your personality as

Ella said, as Suzy suggested as

1:40:311:40:34

well.

We have talked about relationship

1:40:341:40:38

education in school, should it be

mandatory, would that really make a

1:40:381:40:41

difference? Respect lessons, audit,

and changes for legislation for

1:40:411:40:49

people who are self-employed who

have nowhere to go when they have a

1:40:491:40:52

complaint to make. Generational

divide. We talked about briefly.

I

1:40:521:40:56

don't think there is. I'm 43. I'm,

I've hardly had any sexual partners

1:40:561:41:04

and I'm as timid as can being, I

love a bit of banter, I love that,

1:41:041:41:09

but if a man sends me a picture of

his penis, I can't believe I have

1:41:091:41:16

said it so many times or if they

rammed me up against a wall in a

1:41:161:41:23

hotel, I'm timid.

This happened to

me. I was a reasonably feisty nurse

1:41:231:41:30

who would nurse patients, go to case

conferences, stand up in court, when

1:41:301:41:34

I needed to for a patient, this

happened to me. I didn't call it out

1:41:341:41:40

at the time to him. I have called it

out within the workplace. This has

1:41:401:41:45

changed me significantly. For most

people that know me, this is the

1:41:451:41:49

first they know of what has happened

to me. I'm off work for two years

1:41:491:41:53

and nobody knows why. That is what

is happening.

Well, thank you for

1:41:531:41:56

telling us today. Thank you. Thank

you for giving up so much of your

1:41:561:42:00

time. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

1:42:001:42:12

A major report which examines

Hillsborough. The report's aim is to

1:42:121:42:20

inform authorities in their handling

of current and future disasters,

1:42:201:42:25

with some bereaved relatives saying

it could help the victims of the

1:42:251:42:29

Grenfell fire. Our reporter has been

to speak to some of the people

1:42:291:42:35

affected by the tragedy.

1:42:351:42:38

It's been nearly 30 years

since Hillsborough, but for many

1:42:381:42:42

the memories are still raw.

1:42:421:42:43

Even those who weren't alive

when it happened seem

1:42:431:42:46

to understand its significance.

1:42:461:42:47

My mum was...

1:42:471:42:48

She was a real character.

1:42:481:42:51

She was actually from Denmark,

and she moved over here in the '60s.

1:42:511:43:00

She was a huge Beatles fan

and a Rolling Stones fan.

1:43:001:43:03

She made the connection

between the Beatles and Liverpool,

1:43:031:43:05

so she decided that it was Liverpool

was the team she was

1:43:051:43:08

going to follow.

1:43:081:43:09

You know, by the time

Hillsborough happened,

1:43:091:43:11

we were going to like 40 plus games

a season, home and away,

1:43:111:43:14

following Liverpool

all over the country.

1:43:141:43:16

It was really you, your

brother and your mum.

1:43:161:43:18

Absolutely, it was the three of us,

that's what we did as a family.

1:43:181:43:23

But for Liverpool's sold-out FA

Cup semifinal in 1989,

1:43:231:43:26

the Shah family split up.

1:43:261:43:31

17-year-old Becky watched

the match at home, her mum

1:43:311:43:33

and brother went to Sheffield.

1:43:331:43:39

Shortly before kick-off,

a large crowd of fans built up

1:43:391:43:42

outside one end of

Hillsborough Stadium.

1:43:421:43:47

An exit gate was opened,

and there was a severe crush.

1:43:471:43:56

I just couldn't believe what I saw,

and obviously found it very,

1:43:561:43:59

very upsetting, just even,

you know, I was upset about my mum,

1:43:591:44:01

but just watching ordinary Liverpool

fans, some of them gasping for air,

1:44:011:44:04

some of them having

to have the kiss of life.

1:44:041:44:12

And I sat at home and just felt

so completely useless.

1:44:121:44:15

And that feeling's never gone away.

1:44:151:44:25

And it was about four o'clock

in the morning when a police car

1:44:251:44:28

turned up at my house and told me

that my mum...had died.

1:44:281:44:38

Inger Shah was one of 96

men, women and children

1:44:401:44:42

who died at Hillsborough.

1:44:421:44:46

Her ashes were scattered at Anfield,

and her two children

1:44:461:44:50

were put into care and were

very nearly separated.

1:44:501:44:53

I think it would have been

absolutely horrendous,

1:44:531:44:57

on top of the bereavement

and the trauma that we'd

1:44:571:45:00

already had to suffer,

because of our mum's death

1:45:001:45:02

and a massive national disaster.

1:45:021:45:05

To then have to be split up

from your only relative

1:45:051:45:09

is just surely too much.

1:45:091:45:12

Obviously, you know, we had some

support from the social services.

1:45:121:45:14

My brother had some

treatment for his trauma.

1:45:141:45:17

But it was by no means enough.

1:45:171:45:19

Now a report which aims to reveal

the experiences of people bereaved

1:45:191:45:23

by Hillsborough is being released.

1:45:231:45:26

This new report by the former

Bishop of Liverpool -

1:45:261:45:29

how important is that

for the Hillsborough families?

1:45:291:45:33

I think that's incredibly important.

1:45:331:45:37

# Walk on.

1:45:371:45:38

# Walk on.

1:45:381:45:39

# With hope in your heart...#.

1:45:391:45:41

There are times when I do

feel exhausted, I feel

1:45:411:45:45

absolutely shattered,

and one of those times

1:45:451:45:47

was after the inquest,

where I woke up the next day

1:45:471:45:51

and felt that all of this,

over all these years,

1:45:511:45:56

has taken years off my life.

1:45:561:46:00

And that's why this

report is so important.

1:46:001:46:03

I want to know why it's taken

the Government 28 years to come

1:46:031:46:06

and ask us what life has been

like for us.

1:46:061:46:16

Over this period.

1:46:161:46:17

I think that's

absolutely disgraceful.

1:46:171:46:19

It's taken them 28 years.

1:46:191:46:25

This new report focuses on those

who lost loved ones at Hillsborough,

1:46:251:46:29

but Becky says the impact

of the tragedy goes much further.

1:46:291:46:34

From the survivors who suffered

life-changing injuries that day

1:46:341:46:37

to the campaigners who've been

supporting all of the

1:46:371:46:40

victims from the start.

1:46:401:46:47

What people need to realise,

we're going back to 1989,

1:46:471:46:51

so even the term post-traumatic

stress wasn't in common

1:46:511:46:53

usage, as it is now.

1:46:531:46:56

We know of survivors that

have committed suicide

1:46:561:46:59

because they couldn't live

with the trauma they've

1:46:591:47:02

experienced over time.

1:47:021:47:06

Initially, in the hospitals

and everything, obviously,

1:47:061:47:08

there was support -

when I had to learn to walk again

1:47:081:47:11

and, you know, talk.

1:47:111:47:16

Once out of hospital,

nothing, nothing at all.

1:47:161:47:20

When you say "nothing at all",

does that include no counselling?

1:47:201:47:23

No counselling, no nothing, just...

1:47:231:47:27

Just left.

1:47:271:47:28

Basically.

1:47:281:47:31

I've got like a brain

injury, you see?

1:47:311:47:33

And it's a complex one,

so each day it's, em...

1:47:331:47:42

It's just really difficult,

isn't it, yeah?

1:47:421:47:45

Take your time.

1:47:451:47:47

I think the thing for Gill is that,

like a lot of survivors,

1:47:471:47:51

she stayed in the background.

1:47:511:47:54

She stayed in the background

when people should have been

1:47:541:47:58

shouting for support for her,

and that is the crucial factor,

1:47:581:48:03

because we know, I mean it is a fact

that when people receive help

1:48:031:48:06

in the immediate aftermath,

they stand a much greater chance

1:48:061:48:11

of recovery, and that just didn't

happen after Hillsborough.

1:48:111:48:14

And you know, multiply Gill

by hundreds of people,

1:48:141:48:18

potentially thousands,

and you begin to get the picture.

1:48:181:48:22

I myself have suffered terribly

with mental-health problems,

1:48:221:48:25

with post-traumatic stress

and survivor's guilt

1:48:251:48:29

as a result of the disaster.

1:48:291:48:35

And it's really impacted on me,

I've lost my job during the inquest,

1:48:351:48:38

and I've almost been sectioned.

1:48:381:48:42

Do you think that if Hillsborough

happened today, the reaction

1:48:421:48:45

and the support there

would be different?

1:48:451:48:49

I think it would be different,

but it still leaves a lot to be

1:48:491:48:53

desired, and I suppose the most

obvious comparison to make

1:48:531:48:56

at present would be

the Grenfell Tower fire.

1:48:561:49:01

We went down to Grenfell very

shortly after the disaster,

1:49:011:49:04

just to say that the most important

thing at the moment,

1:49:041:49:08

apart from adequate rehousing,

is specialist trauma counselling,

1:49:081:49:12

and if you can learn anything,

it's that this must be put in place.

1:49:121:49:15

And I think that is still

a contentious issue from people

1:49:151:49:18

we know around Grenfell.

1:49:181:49:20

All these years later,

we still have the situation

1:49:201:49:23

where survivors of the disaster

are being excluded.

1:49:231:49:27

What I think is the good thing

about Grenfell is that people

1:49:271:49:31

are shouting out about it,

and they are saying, "We will not

1:49:311:49:34

wait, we will not wait 28 years,

we will not be like Hillsborough."

1:49:341:49:37

And that's the positive,

and when we hear that,

1:49:371:49:40

we're always heartened by that.

1:49:401:49:42

This report is being released.

1:49:421:49:45

Is that it for the fight?

1:49:451:49:46

Do you feel that you've

reached a conclusion?

1:49:461:49:51

Obviously, we welcome anything

which takes things a step further,

1:49:511:49:54

but this is a long road that people

have been on for many years.

1:49:541:49:59

The legacy of Hillsborough has

to be a better society,

1:49:591:50:01

because it's not just about a report

to be put on shelves,

1:50:011:50:04

it's about people cannot

be treated like this.

1:50:041:50:14

Anna Collison reporting. The

Hillsborough review is released at

1:50:151:50:18

11:30am.

1:50:181:50:20

US President Donald Trump has

ordered the Department

1:50:201:50:22

of Homeland Security to "step up"

vetting measures, after a deadly

1:50:221:50:25

truck attack in New York.

1:50:251:50:26

Eight people were killed and 11

injured when the driver of the truck

1:50:261:50:29

hit people on a cycle path in Lower

Manhattan.

1:50:291:50:32

Five Argentines were among the dead.

1:50:321:50:35

Here's how events unfolded.

1:50:351:50:36

Some of what you see

will be disturbing.

1:50:361:50:43

Something told me that something

bigger happened.

1:50:491:50:55

A male driving a pick-up truck

entered the bicycle path, began

1:51:041:51:11

driving southbound, striking a

number of pedestrians and bicycles.

1:51:111:51:17

The truck collided with a school

bus, injuring two adults and two

1:51:171:51:22

children. After the collision, the

driver of the truck, a 29-year-old

1:51:221:51:27

male, exited the vehicle brandishing

two handguns.

1:51:271:51:31

We see this guy and he had guns. I

think he had a beard maybe. And

1:51:311:51:38

everyone was like, run, get back in

the school. We ran in and hid behind

1:51:381:51:42

the locker.

1:51:421:51:46

Oh my God!

1:51:571:52:00

Let me be clear based on the

information we have at the moment

1:52:241:52:27

this was an act of terror. And a

particularly cowardly act of terror.

1:52:271:52:35

Aimed at innocent civilians, aimed

at people going about their lives

1:52:351:52:39

with no idea of what was about to

hit them.

1:52:391:52:42

We can speak now to

Professor Scott Lucas,

1:52:421:52:44

Professor of American Studies

at the University of Birmingham.

1:52:441:52:46

Kamran Bokhari, a senior analyst

with Geopolitical Futures,

1:52:461:52:48

a private intelligience firm

based in Houston.

1:52:481:52:50

And Margaret Gilmore,

a senior associate fellow,

1:52:501:52:51

at the Royal United Services

Institute.

1:52:511:52:58

Margaret Gilmore, whatever you do,

you can't stop this kind of attack

1:52:581:53:02

using a vehicle as a weapon if

somebody is determined to use it?

1:53:021:53:06

No, you can't, not here. There is a

lot you can do to mitigate against

1:53:061:53:13

it. We have heavy duty bollards to

stop a lorry getting into areas

1:53:131:53:19

where there are lots of people. We

have pedestrianised around major

1:53:191:53:24

busy railway stations. Buildings

like the BBC have been

1:53:241:53:28

pedestrianised to stop vehicles

getting close. You can mitigate

1:53:281:53:31

against it. But the terrorist who

wants to will get through. In the

1:53:311:53:36

case of the UK we have seen this

year that they have found that they

1:53:361:53:40

could actually mind the pavement on

London Bridge. Somebody else mounted

1:53:401:53:44

the pavement in march along

Westminster Bridge. They will always

1:53:441:53:46

find a way. A huge amount of work is

going on to try to stop this. That

1:53:461:53:59

doesn't take away from the horror of

every attack that does get through.

1:53:591:54:02

Some things can be done but you

cannot guarantee stopping

1:54:021:54:05

everything.

Professor Lucas, the

driver of this vehicle is in

1:54:051:54:12

custody. He is from Uzbekistan, we

are told, which is not on Donald

1:54:121:54:19

Trump's flight plan?

Uzbekistan

would not have been affected even if

1:54:191:54:25

the Muslim ban had been imposed by

the US courts. He has been in the US

1:54:251:54:31

since 2010. Extreme vetting doesn't

apply to people already in the

1:54:311:54:35

United States. Donald Trump's

statement is political theatre. If

1:54:351:54:38

you were to implement extreme

vetting to stop any attack, you have

1:54:381:54:44

to vet people from every country in

the world, not just Muslims or

1:54:441:54:48

people with beards. It is not a

practical system. The previous

1:54:481:54:52

comments you have heard about

sensible enforcement, monitoring

1:54:521:54:55

people who may be a danger and

trying to mitigate attacks, that is

1:54:551:55:00

the way forward rather than this

kind of political over the top and

1:55:001:55:03

divisive comments President Trump

has made.

What you think about what

1:55:031:55:08

Scott Lucas has said, that you needs

to vet everyone, not just men with

1:55:081:55:12

beards?

I agree with Scott. There is

just no way, I cannot think of a

1:55:121:55:18

mechanism in which you can vet

people like that. I think the

1:55:181:55:24

president, when he is saying this,

is speaking to his base whom he has

1:55:241:55:29

promised during the campaign that he

will crack down on illegal

1:55:291:55:32

immigration, refugee flow and

terrorists trying to get into the

1:55:321:55:37

country. But impracticality I just

don't see how we can get to people,

1:55:371:55:45

at least not everyone of them. The

difficulty is that when these people

1:55:451:55:50

come aim, they are usually not

radicalised at that point. If they

1:55:501:55:55

are radicalised, the chances are

they are on some monitoring list.

1:55:551:55:57

They are on some transfer list. The

authorities are looking into them.

1:55:571:56:05

This individual appears to have been

radicalised at some point during his

1:56:051:56:10

stay. We don't know when. It is not

a case of exit and entry. It is a

1:56:101:56:16

case of how you prevent people from

getting radicalised inside the

1:56:161:56:19

country.

Margaret Gilmore, it appears there

1:56:191:56:25

was a note inside this vehicle with

some link to Isis. The police are

1:56:251:56:30

suggesting he was a lone wolf. It is

too early potentially to say that,

1:56:301:56:33

isn't it?

Probably not too early. We

know a lot about this type of event.

1:56:331:56:39

It looks like it was spontaneous. In

a country rife with guns he didn't

1:56:391:56:46

get his hands on any guns. That

gives away quite a bit. I would like

1:56:461:56:53

to pick up a point about the

response. Nothing can take away this

1:56:531:57:00

man was a terrorist who murdered a

people and maimed others. But the

1:57:001:57:05

response tells us quite a bit about

American policy and the Trump's

1:57:051:57:10

regime. -- regime policy. Get tough

on immigration, go back to countries

1:57:101:57:21

with Muslim populations... We know

what the answer to that is. But when

1:57:211:57:27

we saw recently a wide wealthy

middle American with an arsenal of

1:57:271:57:33

weapons kill 58 people in Las Vegas,

there was very little policy

1:57:331:57:40

discussion afterwards. And virtually

no change whatsoever on the gun

1:57:401:57:43

policy. If we looked at the

statistics are one night he would

1:57:431:57:46

find that more people would have

been killed overnight in gun crime

1:57:461:57:50

in the US than happened in this

appalling event. That doesn't, as I

1:57:501:57:54

say coming in any way detract from

the horror of this event.

1:57:541:57:58

Is that a fair point, Scott Lucas?

I

totally agree. If you are really

1:57:581:58:03

talking about the increase in

violence you have to approach

1:58:031:58:07

violence by all people, whatever

their religion or race. Trump

1:58:071:58:13

supporters were not back gun control

but they will back harsh measures

1:58:131:58:17

against those they consider to be

dangerous, unfortunately, Muslims.

1:58:171:58:22

Thank you for your company today. On

the programme tomorrow, the therapy

1:58:221:58:27

industry and how it is regulated.

See you tomorrow.

1:58:271:58:31

A special programme on sexual harassment in the work place and how to stop it. A group of women and men, most of whom have experienced sexual harassment at some point in their lives, talk about what needs to change. Plus, more claims of sexual harassment against actor Kevin Spacey.