07/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


07/11/2017

Daily news and current affairs programme. Victoria Derbyshire talks to a man who lost his son to knife crime about the controversial policy of stop and search.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

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Welcome to the programme.

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This morning...

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The controversial policy

of stop and search -

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is it an important measure

in tackling knife crime or does it

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just lead to alienation

of the black community?

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Your behaviour, how you work on your

bike, stay still.

I am allowed to

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film. I was given an apology for

what happened and I was invited to

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go out on patrol with their offices

to see how they use stop and search

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powers.

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Our full report in 15

minutes and really keen

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to hear your experiences too.

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What effect did it have on you?

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Plus, a woman seeking

what is thought to be the UK's first

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crowdfunded private rape prosecution

tells this programme she hopes

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to lead the way for those

let down by the courts.

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Emily Hunt has waived her right

to anonymity to talk

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to this programme.

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Her full interview before 11.

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Plus, Theresa May is currently

leading a party engulfed

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by harassment scandals,

with a Foreign Secretary who's just

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made a serious blunder

and an International Development

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Secretary who held talks in Israel

without telling anyone about them.

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We'll look at what all this

means for her leadeship.

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Hello, welcome to the programme.

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We're live until 11am this morning.

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Do get in touch on all the stories

we're talking about this morning.

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Use the hashtag #Victorialive,

and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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Tell us if you have been stopped and

searched by the police. What

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happened? Why were you told you were

being searched? Let me know. You can

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send me an e-mail. All of the

details on the screen. Good morning.

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Our top story today...

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Leaked documents

known as the Paradise

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Papers that have been analysed

by the BBC's Panorama programme

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and the International Consortium

of Investigative Journalists reveal

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that Apple moved its profits

to Jersey after a tax loophole

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in Ireland was closed.

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The arrangement isn't illegal

but means the technology giant saves

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billions in corporation tax.

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Apple says it remains

the world's largest taxpayer.

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The files also show Formula 1 world

champion Lewis Hamilton avoided tax

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on a luxury jet he purchased

by importing it to the Isle of Man.

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Our economics correspondent,

Andy Verity, has more.

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COMMENTATOR:

Hamilton

is world champion...

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Five years ago, Lewis Hamilton

bought his own luxury jet

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worth £16.5 million.

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It was something he'd always wanted.

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This is your plane.

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If I get a plane, I'm

going to pimp it out?

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Paint it red, yeah?

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Exactly.

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In January, 2013, the Formula 1

champion landed his new private

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plane at the Isle of Man's airport,

importing it there.

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Isle of Man customs officials

met him at 6:15am to finalise

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the paperwork and sign off on a VAT

refund of £3.3 million.

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I can't believe I have my own plane

still, after all these years.

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Under EU rules, you're only meant

to get a refund if the jet's used

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for commercial purposes,

but the documents suggest Hamilton

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was planning to spend a third

of his flying time on personal use,

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and he's not alone.

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The leaks also show the Isle of Man

paid £790 million in VAT refunds

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to jet-leasing companies.

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If they're using it for private

purposes, the fact that all this

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money is being refunded

is quite shocking.

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You should not be getting VAT back

if it's private usage

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and you're getting VAT back.

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Mr Hamilton's lawyer said

the arrangement was lawful.

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The documents also reveal how

the iPhone maker Apple used

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a British Crown dependency

to keep its tax bill down.

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We pay all the taxes we owe,

every single dollar.

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We not only comply with

the laws, but we comply

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with the spirit of the laws.

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We don't depend on tax gimmicks.

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In 2014, Ireland announced

it would ban companies

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with no tax residency.

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That meant Apple needed a tax

residency for its lucrative

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Irish subsidiaries fast,

so it sent out a questionnaire

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courting tax havens and it chose

Jersey, where its $261 billion pile

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of cash from selling phones

and iPads is now tax resident.

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Apple said the structure hadn't

lowered its taxes and it remained

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the world's largest taxpayer.

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Andy Verity, BBC News.

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In the last few minutes, a response

from the government in Jersey. They

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say, Jersey does not want abusive

tax avoidance schemes and it expects

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financial services providers to

abide by a voluntary code to say

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they will not take on this business.

We are asking for all relevant

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documents to support this action to

be investigated.

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Rebecca is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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Good morning.

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US President Donald Trump has

been greeted with full

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ceremony in South Korea,

on the latest leg of

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his tour of East Asia.

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His 24-hour visit comes as tensions

remain high on the Korean peninsula.

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The White House says Mr Trump's trip

is intended to demonstrate American

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resolve in the face of nuclear

and missile threats

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from North Korea.

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In the last hour, he told a news

conference they were making a lot of

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progress on the issue of North

Korea.

North Korea is a worldwide

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threat that requires worldwide

action. We call on every responsible

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nation, including China and Russia,

to demand that the North Korean

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regime end its nuclear weapons and

its missile programmes and live in

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peace, as the South Korean people

know so well, it is time to act with

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urgency and with great

determination.

The husband of a

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British woman jailed in Iran has

said the Foreign Secretary, Boris

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Johnson, should correct an error he

made in talking about the case. Mr

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Johnson had told MPs Nazanin

Zaghari-Ratcliffe had been training

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journalists. Her husband, Richard,

says she was on holiday. The legal

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authorities in Iran have threatened

to increase the five-year sentence

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imposed on her.

Keith Doyle reports. Nazanin

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Zaghari-Ratcliffe was arrested with

her baby at Tehran airport last

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year. She was charged with trying to

overthrow the government and

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sentenced to five years in jail. She

has worked for the Thomson Reuters

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foundation and the BBC, but insisted

this trip was for her daughter to

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meet her grandparents and she denies

all the allegations against her.

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Diplomacy has not helped secure her

release and this comment by the

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Foreign Secretary last week has set

her case back, according to her

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family.

She was simply teaching

people journalism, as I understand

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it.

In the last few days, she was

brought back to court and told Mr

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Johnson's comments shed new light on

her case and proved she was not on

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holiday. It is feared Iran may now

increase her sentence.

He needs to

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make a clear statement that she was

not working training journalists.

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She was on holiday. She is innocent

of the association. We have made it

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very clear for a long time, she is

not being held because of anything

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she has done, she is not.

The

Foreign Office says Boris Johnson

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will be in touch with the Iranian

Foreign Minister to ensure his

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comments are not misrepresented.

Victoria will be talking to the

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husband of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

in the next hour.

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The Prime Minister has asked

for the ministerial code of conduct

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to be tightened after an MP

apologised for holding secret

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meetings with Israeli

officials during the summer.

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Priti Patel - the International

Development Secretary -

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apologised for not informing

the Foreign Office and suggesting

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Boris Johnson knew in

advance of the visit.

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Labour said the "shocking" admission

warranted a Cabinet Office inquiry.

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The Prime Minister is calling

for a new culture of respect

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after a string of sexual harassment

claims at Westminster.

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She's been meeting leaders from all

parties to talk about improving

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the complaints procedure.

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Theresa May's described plans

for a new grievance procedure

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for parliamentary staff

as an important step forward.

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The Government is being warned that

foodbanks could struggle to meet

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demand this winter unless urgent

action is taken to improve

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Universal Credit.

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The Trussell Trust -

which is the Uks biggest

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foodbank operator -

says areas where Universal Credit

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has been in place for six months

have seen a 30% increase in demand

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on the previous year.

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The Government says it's

misleading to link foodbank

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usage to any one issue.

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A baby Javan Gibbon has been born in

the wild, the first born to parents

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rescued from the pet trade.

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Victoria Gill reports.

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In this protected rainforest

in Indonesia, conservationists

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introduced me to a very special

family.

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These are Javan gibbons.

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They were released here by a team

who rescued them from the pet trade.

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Now they have settled

into their new home

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and have just had a baby.

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That six-month-old baby is the first

baby Javan gibbon to be born

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in the wild from rehabilitated

and rereleased parents.

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Both parents started their lives

in cages in the pet trade.

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Now they're living wild.

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There are a family.

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But some gibbons are not so lucky.

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They are still sometimes taken

from the wild and sold as pets.

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Researchers say the trade is now

happening more online,

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sometimes on social media.

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We found this video of a gibbon

for sale on Facebook.

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And British researchers

who are studying the pet trade

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showed me videos and pictures posted

by Indonesian pet shops including

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this one of a baby Javan gibbon.

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It's illegal to sell

these endangered animals.

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And gibbons are not the only

type of ape affected.

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These baby orangutans

were also rescued and are now

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being cared for at a sanctuary.

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Apes are very intelligent.

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Being taken from their family

to be someone's pet

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is frightening for them.

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He was found in Jakarta in a bus

in a postal package.

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Someone was posting her?

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Exactly, yes.

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It's horrific that

this is happening.

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When they found her,

she was traumatised.

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It was really difficult

for us to get her going.

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These youngsters are now learning

to live in the trees so they can one

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day go back to the forest.

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Facebook told us they had removed

the video we found and they said

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they wanted to help tackle

the illegal online trade

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in protected wildlife.

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Conservationists here want to fight

the trade too and they want to bring

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more of these gibbons out of cages

and back into the wild

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where they belong.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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Let's get some sport.

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West Ham have a new manager. Why

have they hired David Moyes? They

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are looking for a safe pair of hands

and someone they believe can turn

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around their Premier League season.

They have only won two matches, down

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in the relegation zone, and they

have said in a statement saying they

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have appointed David Moyes, they are

looking for someone with long

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Premier League experience who can

bring a steady head to the job. They

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believe David Moyes is the right man

for the job. Negotiations seem to

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have progressed pretty smoothly

yesterday after they sacked Slaven

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Bilic as their boss, so they have

got the former Everton, Manchester

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United and Sunderland man in on a

two and a half year contract with a

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break clause at the end of the

season. They will be waiting to see

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whether he can turn the season

around. It is thought he will start

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with training this afternoon and he

has already posted a video on West

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Ham's Twitter feed

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talking about how much he is looking

forward to the job.

I am really

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looking forward to meeting the

supporters, being in the stadium

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with

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them, looking forward to seeing them

get right behind the team and my

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team also.

We need the support, we

need everybody with us. It is a big

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job we have in hand now. I am sure

with everybody together, we can get

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the right results between now and

the end of the season. By the looks

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of the video, they may have had

David Moyes in the wings for some

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time before they sacked Slaven

Bilic! Slaven Bilic said he was

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expecting it, no hard feelings. His

friend Ian Wright said he was

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pleased for Slaven Bilic because

just being one game away from losing

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his job for the last however long it

has taken a toll on his mental

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health. Probably the best thing for

him.

As a friend, I know him very

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well, I am actually pleased. Pleased

for him knowing him and what he has

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been going through the last couple

of years especially, especially

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since the new stadium and everything

like that. I think for himself and

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his health, he needs a break from

it. You cannot work like that. You

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are always a couple of games from

the sack. I am just pleased now for

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his sake that he can get a break

from it and get on with it.

West Ham

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fans as well pretty pleased to see

the back Slaven Bilic. But not that

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excited about the arrival of David

Moyes. One online poll, 90% said

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they would prefer to see a much more

progressive manager but it may

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sweeten the pill for them if he

brings in Stuart Pearce as his

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number two. Very popular figure at

West Ham and among the fans as well.

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Perhaps we will see him as part of

David Moyes' team and of course, if

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David Moyes can turn the season

around, perhaps they will feel more

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positive about him.

Stuart Pearce,

he would inspire some of the

0:14:330:14:36

players, I think. Again on Twitter,

loads of West Ham fans saying, how

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is David Moyes the right man when he

took down Sunderland? Other saying

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that no one could have kept

Sunderland up. Cricket, build up to

0:14:470:14:51

the Ashes, tricky for the England

team, another blow?

Another big name

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out of England's ashes squad, the

seam bowler Steven Finn, a tear to

0:14:570:15:03

the cartilage in his knee that he

picked up in training. Travelled out

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to Australia, got the injury, it

just seems extra cruel. He will fly

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UK in the 48 hours and he will see a

specialist to ascertain whether he

0:15:130:15:20

needs an operation. They already

without Ben Stokes after the

0:15:200:15:23

incident outside a Bristol

nightclub. Now Steven Finn missing

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as well. Pessimists owing England

are staring down the barrel of an

0:15:290:15:34

ashes whitewash.

Thank you.

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If you're black - you're eight times

more likely to be stopped

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and searched by a police officer

than any other ethnic group.

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Although it has been used around

300,000 times across England

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and Wales in the past year,

only 17% of those lead

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to an actual arrest.

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For innocent people being stopped

in the street can be

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scary and intimidating

and for some, it can lead

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to distrust of police officers.

0:16:060:16:15

The country's biggest force,

the Metropolitan Police,

0:16:150:16:18

say its vital to reduce knife crime.

0:16:180:16:21

21 teenagers have been

stabbed to death in london

0:16:210:16:24

21 teenagers have been

stabbed to death in London

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alone so far this year.

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Our reporter Noel Phillips

was stopped and searched twice

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within a few months.

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After he complained about his

treatment the Met apologised.

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Here's a film he made about it.

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I'm sure the officer

has explained to you,

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you're being searched

because there's been

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an incident where someone has

produced a flick knife.

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A glimpse into one of

the police's most controversial

0:16:470:16:49

powers, stop and search.

0:16:490:16:51

I think it is down to how

you dress and your race.

0:16:510:16:53

I wouldn't blanket so we are looking

to stop more black people

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or young black men.

0:16:560:16:57

Your behaviour, on your bike...

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I've been stopped and searched twice

in the last few months.

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Stay still.

0:17:040:17:10

We also hear claims about officers

abusing their powers.

0:17:100:17:13

I've seen many police officers stop

people that I would be can consider

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to be based on their racial

prejudices because of

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the colour of their skin.

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I think it is a really useful tool

when properly targeted,

0:17:190:17:29

when properly focused

when there are good grounds.

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But that's not always the case give

people like me who have been

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on the receiving end

of being stopped and searched,

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can often leave you feeling

victimised or, in some cases,

0:17:400:17:47

like me who have been

on the receiving end up

0:17:470:17:50

According to Home Office figures, if

you are black you are eight times

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more likely to be stopped and

searched compared to any other

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ethnic group.

I have explained it to you though.

I

0:18:040:18:10

have been stopped over 125 times in

my lifetime. Ken was stopped at the

0:18:100:18:15

age of 17. He is a youth mentor.

It

made me an angry man. It made me see

0:18:150:18:22

the police as the enemy. I made a

mistake, but it doesn't mean that

0:18:220:18:26

you young men have to make the same

mistake that I have made.

How can

0:18:260:18:34

the police stop and searching?

The

way they can stop the police

0:18:340:18:39

stopping us unnecessarily is by

holding them to account. Just

0:18:390:18:42

because you have got stop and search

it doesn't mean you have done

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anything bad.

The police have a job

to do. There are bad guys out there?

0:18:460:18:51

I accept that stop and search is one

of the tools in the armour of the

0:18:510:18:55

police to be used. Since stop and

search came out of a racist law, it

0:18:550:19:01

is not surprising 40 years on, we

are still getting this

0:19:010:19:06

disproportionality that's still

here.

A quarter of a century ago,

0:19:060:19:11

riots in Brixton led to the end of

the laws which allowed police to

0:19:110:19:17

stop and arrest anyone on suspicion,

but it was widely believed it was

0:19:170:19:21

used by officers to harass young

black men and opinion is divided as

0:19:210:19:26

to whether much has changed since

then.

The amount of times I see

0:19:260:19:31

black young guys going from school

and getting stopped and searched is

0:19:310:19:35

just frustrating.

Barry is 14 and

says his first contact with the

0:19:350:19:39

police was when he was searched on

his way home from school six months

0:19:390:19:43

ago.

I was about to go home. I was

playing with my keys. I was feeling

0:19:430:19:51

bored and I accidentally dropped my

keys near the police station and

0:19:510:19:55

then some police they came over.

They said because at the time I had

0:19:550:20:01

a bag as well. So, they said can you

0:20:010:20:14

They said because at the time I had

a bag as well. So, they said can you

0:20:140:20:14

empty your bag

0:20:140:20:24

I've been stopped and searched once

when I was 12 last year

0:20:240:20:27

I was on my way to training

and I was at the bus stop waiting

0:20:270:20:30

for my bus and two police officers

approached me and they said I match

0:20:300:20:34

the description of something

that had happened.

0:20:340:20:43

I've been stopped a lot of times

when I was young.

0:20:430:20:45

Whilst they've never been

in trouble with the police,

0:20:450:20:48

26-year-old Ahmed has.

0:20:480:20:49

He said he used to be

part of a gang.

0:20:490:20:51

Do you think you were stopped

because of the way you looked

0:20:510:20:54

or maybe because of

what you were wearing?

0:20:540:20:56

The way I looked

on what I was wearing.

0:20:560:20:58

My colour was the main

thing I got stopped for.

0:20:580:21:01

Do you think it's really

just down to that?

0:21:010:21:03

Yes.

0:21:030:21:04

Why?

0:21:040:21:05

I've been stopped over at 70 times

because of my colour.

0:21:050:21:08

Even now I do something good

for the community

0:21:080:21:10

I still get stopped.

0:21:100:21:16

Don't you accept the police

have a job to do and they have

0:21:160:21:19

to try and keep people safe?

0:21:190:21:20

Yes, they have a job

to do and I understand,

0:21:200:21:23

but there's better things to do

than search me.

0:21:230:21:25

What do you think the police can do

to make stop and search more

0:21:250:21:28

effective so people like you,

who aren't criminals,

0:21:280:21:30

who aren't doing bad things,

aren't being stopped?

0:21:300:21:32

Do their job properly.

0:21:320:21:33

Simple as that.

0:21:330:21:34

Do your job properly.

0:21:340:21:35

Know people's rights.

0:21:350:21:36

Do your job properly.

0:21:360:21:41

I also know what it feels like to be

stopped and searched.

0:21:410:21:46

In fact, the most recent is at this

very spot where I'm standing.

0:21:460:21:49

Now I remember four plain-clothed

officers approaching me.

0:21:490:21:52

It was all so sudden,

all so unexpected.

0:21:520:21:56

They asked me what I was doing.

0:21:560:21:59

I pointed in that direction and said

I was on my way home,

0:21:590:22:02

and yet I was still searched.

0:22:020:22:05

There's been drug

dealing on this estate.

0:22:050:22:09

We've seen people stop,

they run away from us.

0:22:090:22:11

We've arrested people for cannabis.

0:22:110:22:14

Your behaviour, how

you was on your bike,...

0:22:140:22:19

Sorry, I'm allowed to film.

0:22:190:22:20

Stay still.

0:22:200:22:24

At that point, the officer

took my phone and stopped me

0:22:240:22:27

recording what was happening

and I was detained and searched.

0:22:270:22:30

We're going to put some gloves on.

0:22:300:22:35

OK.

0:22:350:22:38

The Misuse of Drugs Act power

was used to search me,

0:22:380:22:40

that's despite me never having used

drugs in my entire life.

0:22:400:22:43

Can you stay still?

0:22:430:22:44

I am, I am.

0:22:440:22:47

After challenging the police

on their grounds for searching me

0:22:470:22:50

I was given an apology

for what happened and was invited

0:22:500:22:53

to go out on patrol

with their officers to see how

0:22:530:22:55

they use their stop

and search powers.

0:22:550:22:58

This month in Hackney through stop

and search, we've removed

0:22:580:23:00

eight weapons off people.

0:23:000:23:02

We've actually taken as weapons off

the street and that prevents them

0:23:020:23:05

being used in what could be murders.

0:23:050:23:07

Secondly, if people know

that the police are out there making

0:23:070:23:09

use of stop and search powers,

it acts as a deterrent

0:23:090:23:12

for people to carry weapons.

0:23:120:23:16

Within minutes we receive reports

of a man threatening to stab a woman

0:23:160:23:19

with a knife in a nearby park

in Hackney, North London.

0:23:190:23:22

Received.

0:23:220:23:24

Do we know what sort

of knife it was?

0:23:240:23:29

All we've got is this park,

so we're just going to see if anyone

0:23:290:23:34

that matches the description.

0:23:340:23:36

You're looking for a tall,

slim-build black man

0:23:360:23:38

with a salt-and-pepper moustache.

0:23:380:23:42

Would there be any doubt

in your mind if you do see this man

0:23:420:23:45

whether he needs to be

searched or not?

0:23:450:23:47

It's about having a suspicion.

0:23:470:23:49

So at the moment, with

the information that I've got,

0:23:490:23:51

if we found someone

that closely matches

0:23:510:23:53

that description, yes,

I have a suspicion he might be

0:23:530:23:55

carrying a knife.

0:23:550:23:56

Officers were unable to locate

the man who reportedly had a knife

0:23:560:23:59

but across the UK knife

crime is on the rise,

0:23:590:24:01

especially in London.

0:24:010:24:09

For all the crit sisms about stop

and search, the Met point to the

0:24:090:24:15

statistics, 150 people were stabbed

in the capital and last year that

0:24:150:24:19

figure rose to more than 1200. The

figures I know would suggest that

0:24:190:24:24

the majority of those involved in

knife

0:24:240:24:27

the majority of those involved in

knife crime are young, They are

0:24:270:24:29

almost all men.

There is a high

proportion that are black and ethnic

0:24:290:24:33

minority than not. We look at maybe

some of our activities to target

0:24:330:24:38

gang members and you look at the

make up of those gangs. That could

0:24:380:24:41

be another reason or the

demographics of any particular part

0:24:410:24:44

of London.

The person with a knife

punched the informant in the face.

0:24:440:24:50

So we are going to a call to a shop

down in the south of borrow. There

0:24:500:24:55

is a group of youths in the shop and

the shop owner asked them to move.

0:24:550:25:01

One of them pulled a knife out and

threatened him with it. It is a

0:25:010:25:06

white, 13 to 14-year-old, grey

tracksuit, President Hollande hair.

0:25:060:25:09

So we have got, I think, we have got

three units going to this call and

0:25:090:25:14

CCTV looking. The officer has

explained you are being searched

0:25:140:25:23

because someone produced a flick

knife.

Officers stop a 16-year-old

0:25:230:25:28

who matches the description. But his

15-year-old friend who, is black, is

0:25:280:25:37

being arrested.

Possession of Class

B drugs. We are searching under

0:25:370:25:44

PACE. A flick knife is a weapon, but

we found drugs on this boy. Sew has

0:25:440:25:49

been arrested. The other one hasn't

got a knife and nothing illegal. We

0:25:490:25:53

will get his details and he will be

on his way.

Now these officers are

0:25:530:25:57

keen for us to see that the Met

wants to change the public's

0:25:570:26:01

opinions about stop and search, for

decades the force faced accusations

0:26:010:26:07

of racism, but for there to be

change, there has to be trust. Do

0:26:070:26:10

you think black people have to just

accept the fact that they will be

0:26:100:26:14

stopped and searched because it's an

effective way in tackling knife and

0:26:140:26:19

violent crime?

We are not looking to

blanket search young men. We are

0:26:190:26:24

looking to search gang members and

people who matches the suspect. If

0:26:240:26:31

we see someone that matches that

description, they will be searched.

0:26:310:26:34

As was the case today. That's what

we operate on. We don't generalise

0:26:340:26:39

and we don't blank sercht people

based on their gender or age or

0:26:390:26:43

ethnicity. It is not a case that all

black men have to accept they will

0:26:430:26:48

be searched.

Adam spent time on the

Met Police. He says he witnessed

0:26:480:26:59

officers deliberately searching

young black men.

It permeates the he

0:26:590:27:03

entire police service at every

level. Ultimately, racism within the

0:27:030:27:07

Metropolitan Police is a massive

issue. That infects every, it

0:27:070:27:14

infects the police at every level.

What were some of the things you

0:27:140:27:17

saw?

I have seen many police

officers stop people that what I

0:27:170:27:20

consider would be based on their

racial prejudices because of the

0:27:200:27:24

colour of their skin and even when

we were training to be police

0:27:240:27:27

officers, I remember that we had one

particular trainer who was very open

0:27:270:27:32

in his views. His words were if we

rock up to a call when there is a

0:27:320:27:36

group of eight or nine young plaque

guys wearing hoodies, they are going

0:27:360:27:40

to get spun and turned over. My

response was why? In this scenario

0:27:400:27:46

that you've sort of concocted, there

is no other information other than

0:27:460:27:49

the fact that they are young, black

men, and that they are wearing

0:27:490:27:52

hoodies and that is the only factor

in your decision making in that they

0:27:520:27:56

are going to get searched.

Do I

believe that officers are using

0:27:560:28:02

their pour we are inappropriately?

The majority I would say are not

0:28:020:28:04

doing that. We act based on the

information we receive and the

0:28:040:28:09

individual circumstances we are

responding to.

You accept there is a

0:28:090:28:13

small number of officers who are

misusing their powers and it is as a

0:28:130:28:16

result of that, that's causing

problems between the police and

0:28:160:28:20

certain ethnic communities, isn't it

I am not saying they are misusing

0:28:200:28:23

their powers. There were complaints

that have been made that have been

0:28:230:28:26

investigated and maybe it has been

found that there weren't the grounds

0:28:260:28:29

there for the search, but we are a

massive organisation and some people

0:28:290:28:33

will make mistakes or get it wrong.

In the last year the Metropolitan

0:28:330:28:38

Police carried out nearly 136 stop

and searches. Down from 152,000 the

0:28:380:28:43

year before. The Home Office tells

us stop and search reforms are

0:28:430:28:48

working, but are all police forces

across the country using the tactic

0:28:480:28:52

fairly? Nick is a former

Leicestershire Police chief

0:28:520:28:56

inspector.

I think there are still

police officers across the country

0:28:560:29:00

who are misusing their powers, yes.

It's less than it was three or four,

0:29:000:29:08

four, five years ago. By misuse,

they haven't got the grounds to use

0:29:080:29:13

them or they are using the incorrect

power or they are using, whether it

0:29:130:29:16

is conscious or unconscious bias,

prejudice, discrimination...

Since

0:29:160:29:20

he was a teenager, Nick has been

stopped and searched more than 30

0:29:200:29:24

times whilst off duty. There will be

a lot of people watching who will

0:29:240:29:30

find it staggering that somebody

like yourself, a police inspector,

0:29:300:29:34

is being stopped and searched?

Yes.

And the interesting comparison is if

0:29:340:29:41

I talk to my former colleagues and

ask them how many times they have

0:29:410:29:45

been stopped by the police, some

have never been stopped which I

0:29:450:29:48

always find amazing because I have

been stopped since I was 17 years

0:29:480:29:51

old. So I think it is the

comparison. It's like why is it me?

0:29:510:29:55

And why is it not, you know, former

colleagues, who have a different

0:29:550:29:59

skin colour to me?

For many young

black men like me, our first

0:29:590:30:08

interactions with the police tend to

be to stop and search, which often

0:30:080:30:14

leads to no further action because

of a lack of evidence. The police

0:30:140:30:16

say they make no apology when it

comes to saving lives.

I have seen

0:30:160:30:23

numerous stabbings on the street and

someone has been walking around

0:30:230:30:28

carrying a weapon on that person for

that to happen. If we had stopped

0:30:280:30:32

and searched them before that, it

could have been avoided. This is why

0:30:320:30:37

it is incredibly important and it

does save lives.

0:30:370:30:42

The Home Office told us no one

should be stopped because of their

0:30:420:30:45

race or ethnicity. They will have to

explain disparities in the areas

0:30:450:30:54

because if it is misused, it can

damage policing. Let me read you

0:30:540:31:00

these messages. This is from someone

who has not left their name, I grew

0:31:000:31:04

up wanting to be a detective, but

being mixed race in south London, I

0:31:040:31:09

was not educated about my rights and

I was targeted by the police

0:31:090:31:14

constantly from 14. Understandably

savvy job to do, but when you are

0:31:140:31:17

stopped and searched multiple times

before you have omitted a crime, you

0:31:170:31:23

are put in a box. -- I understand

the police have a job to do. I am a

0:31:230:31:28

changed man now, after committing

crime for several years, but I whiz

0:31:280:31:33

wonder, what if I had never been

searched all of those times? -- I

0:31:330:31:37

always wonder. A metropolitan

officer says, I will not be watching

0:31:370:31:43

your programme again. Stop and

search certainly does not target

0:31:430:31:46

particular groups of people. Another

says, the conclusion of all of the

0:31:460:31:51

black men and boys on your programme

is the Met Police are racially

0:31:510:31:55

profile in black people. Another

says, stopping people based on the

0:31:550:31:59

way they walk, dress, speak and

indeed there ethnicity or skin

0:31:590:32:05

colour is not law enforcement. We

will talk to the father of a teenage

0:32:050:32:11

boy who was fatally stabbed in

London earlier this year outside his

0:32:110:32:13

school. He believes in stop and

search and says it must continue.

0:32:130:32:21

Still to come... Allegations of

harassment at Westminster continue

0:32:210:32:24

to emerge, we ask politicians

whether what is being suggested by

0:32:240:32:28

Mrs May and other party leaders is

going to be enough to tackle it. We

0:32:280:32:32

will be meeting Pride of Britain

Fundraiser of the Year Jake who lost

0:32:320:32:42

his wife to cancer and he is hoping

to realise their dream of having a

0:32:420:32:46

child through a surrogate. Time for

the latest news.

0:32:460:32:56

Leaked documents known

as the Paradise Papers reveal that

0:32:560:32:59

Apple moved its profits to Jersey

after a tax loophole

0:32:590:33:02

in Ireland was closed.

0:33:020:33:05

The arrangement isn't illegal

but means the technology giant saves

0:33:050:33:08

billions in corporation tax.

0:33:080:33:10

Apple says it remains

the world's largest taxpayer.

0:33:100:33:15

The government in Jersey says it

will be investigated.

0:33:150:33:22

The files also show Formula 1 world

champion Lewis Hamilton avoided tax

0:33:220:33:25

on a £16.5 million luxury jet

by importing it into

0:33:250:33:28

the Isle of Man in 2013.

0:33:280:33:29

His lawyers say the

process was lawful.

0:33:290:33:33

Donald Trump has been greeted with

full ceremony in South Korea on the

0:33:330:33:36

latest leg of his tour of East Asia.

His 24-hour visit comes as tensions

0:33:360:33:41

remain high on the Korean

peninsular. Speaking at a news

0:33:410:33:46

conference in Seoul, President Trump

said he believed his policies

0:33:460:33:50

towards North Korea were beginning

to have some impact and he suggested

0:33:500:33:54

the North may be persuaded to

negotiate. The husband of a British

0:33:540:33:59

woman jailed in Iran has said the

Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson,

0:33:590:34:02

should correct an error he made when

he was talking about the case. Mr

0:34:020:34:07

Johnson told MPs that Nazanin

Zaghari-Ratcliffe has been training

0:34:070:34:13

journalists. Her husband, Richard,

says she was on holiday. The legal

0:34:130:34:18

authorities in Iran have threatened

to increase the five-year sentence

0:34:180:34:21

imposed on her. The Prime Minister

has asked for the ministerial code

0:34:210:34:26

of conduct to be tightened after an

MP apologised for holding secret

0:34:260:34:32

meetings with Israeli officials in

the summer. Priti Patel, the

0:34:320:34:38

International Development Secretary,

apologised for not informing the

0:34:380:34:41

Foreign Office and suggesting Boris

Johnson knew in advance of the

0:34:410:34:44

visit. Labour said the shocking

admission warranted a Cabinet Office

0:34:440:34:50

inquiry. That is the summary of the

latest BBC News. Good morning.

0:34:500:34:56

Welcome to the programme. Sport

again

0:34:560:34:57

. David Moyes is the new West Ham

boss. They sacked Slaven Bilic

0:35:010:35:06

yesterday. He has signed a two and a

half year deal. His job is to keep

0:35:060:35:11

West Ham in the Premier League.

Steven Finn is that of England's

0:35:110:35:16

Ashes tour after tearing cartilage

in his knee. The first Test starts

0:35:160:35:21

on the 21st of the month. England

already without Ben Stokes. The race

0:35:210:35:27

that stops a nation, the Melbourne

cup in Australia, incredible finish

0:35:270:35:31

as the 14-1 shot overtook in the

closing sprint. The trainer of the

0:35:310:35:38

winning horse was Joseph O'Brien.

The trainer of the horse he beat to

0:35:380:35:43

the line was his father, the best in

the world. Passing from one

0:35:430:35:47

generation to the next!

0:35:470:35:51

Westminster party leaders have

agreed to introduce a new grievance

0:35:510:35:53

procedure for staff to deal

with misconduct allegations.

0:35:530:35:58

It follows a week which has seen

allegation after allegation

0:35:580:36:00

of sexual harassment and assault

for a number of MPs.

0:36:000:36:02

This wave of accusations and

investigations began last month with

0:36:070:36:12

the suspension of Labour MP Jared

O'Mara over claims he used

0:36:120:36:17

misogynistic and homophobic

comments. Four days later, the

0:36:170:36:20

international Trade Minister, Mark

Garnier, is investigated by the

0:36:200:36:24

Cabinet Office after admitting

asking his secretary to buy sex

0:36:240:36:28

toys. Then came claims in the Times

the man effectively Theresa May's

0:36:280:36:34

deputy, Damian Green, fleetingly

touched a younger woman's me and

0:36:340:36:38

sent her a suggestive text. The

Cabinet Office launches an

0:36:380:36:42

investigation. The first Secretary

of State calls the claims are untrue

0:36:420:36:46

and deeply hurtful. The Labour Party

launch an investigation after a

0:36:460:36:51

well-known activist said she had

been raped at a party event in 2011

0:36:510:36:55

and she was discouraged from

reporting the attack. A day later,

0:36:550:37:01

big-name resignation, Sir Michael

Fallon quits as Defence Secretary

0:37:010:37:03

saying his behaviour in the past may

have fallen short of standards

0:37:030:37:07

expected.

I have behaved in the past

clearly in a way that has

0:37:070:37:13

occasionally been below the

standards we require of the Armed

0:37:130:37:17

Forces. I do not think it is right

for me to go on as Defence

0:37:170:37:21

Secretary, expecting the very

highest standards of our servicemen

0:37:210:37:24

and women and failing to meet them

myself.

Last Thursday evening,

0:37:240:37:29

Labour suspended the MP Kelvin

Hopkins over allegations of

0:37:290:37:33

inappropriate conduct made by a

party activist which he

0:37:330:37:37

categorically denies. Friday, it is

the turn of another Labour MP to

0:37:370:37:42

deny allegations, Clive Lewis is

being investigated over claims he

0:37:420:37:45

groped a woman at the conference.

I

do not as a rule at Labour Party

0:37:450:37:53

conference grope people's bottoms.

It is not how I roll, not what I do.

0:37:530:38:02

Is the person mistaken? Have I given

them a hug and this has been

0:38:020:38:08

misinterpreted? I don't know. All I

know is I would not deliberately do

0:38:080:38:12

that.

Tory MP Charlie Elphicke is

suspended a day later after serious

0:38:120:38:18

allegations are referred to police.

He denies any wrongdoing. Sunday,

0:38:180:38:23

the investigation into Damian Green

widens. Pornography was found on one

0:38:230:38:27

of his parliamentary computers in

2008. He describes the claims as

0:38:270:38:32

false. Conservative MP then resigns

as government whip after being

0:38:320:38:39

accused of making an unwanted path

at a former Olympic rower and

0:38:390:38:44

Conservative activists Alex story in

2001. Three Tory MPs are referred to

0:38:440:38:53

the party's disciplinary committee

after allegations about their

0:38:530:38:55

conduct. Daniel Potter and Daniel

Kochanski deny wrongdoing. Stephen

0:38:550:39:01

Crabb admits saying some pretty

outrageous things to a woman after

0:39:010:39:05

interviewing her for a job.

Yesterday another claim, the

0:39:050:39:10

Conservative Party activist tells

this programme she was raped by

0:39:100:39:13

someone more senior in the party but

that her complaints to the House of

0:39:130:39:17

Commons authorities were completely

ignored.

I remember the attack

0:39:170:39:22

during the attack, I remember the

room disappearing around me and

0:39:220:39:28

thinking I was going to die. When he

left the next day, I was at the

0:39:280:39:33

police station within an hour.

0:39:330:39:39

We can speak now to Ian Blackford,

leader of the SNP in the House

0:39:390:39:43

of Commons in Westminster

who was at the meeting

0:39:430:39:45

yesterday, the Labour

MP, Catherine West,

0:39:450:39:53

who was elected

in 2015, and Alistair Carmichael,

0:39:530:39:55

the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip.

0:39:550:39:58

He is on his way to the Millbank

Studios. Ian Blackford, do you think

0:39:580:40:02

the outcome of the meeting was

enough?

We have agreed we will set

0:40:020:40:08

up a working group with that aim we

have a grievance procedures in place

0:40:080:40:11

by the beginning of next year, the

outline of what will be proposed has

0:40:110:40:15

to come together by the 1st of

December. I think it is important we

0:40:150:40:25

work on a cross-party basis. We

should be under no doubt what the

0:40:250:40:29

public expects, to show leadership.

How does having a grievance

0:40:290:40:35

procedure finally in place stopped

MPs behaving so appallingly?

We have

0:40:350:40:41

to set out zero tolerance of bad

behaviour, bad sexual behaviour,

0:40:410:40:44

bullion. We have to see it as a

watershed moment, leadership has to

0:40:440:40:49

be shown across the political

parties and we have to say anybody

0:40:490:40:52

behaving unacceptably, they will pay

a price, there will be consequences.

0:40:520:40:58

Anyone that comes across in

constituency offices, they will know

0:40:580:41:04

they will be protected, that they

will be encouraged to come forward

0:41:040:41:07

with any allegations of bad

behaviour and this will be taken

0:41:070:41:11

seriously. This is our one chance to

show we are serious about this, not

0:41:110:41:16

just about Parliament, it is about

behaviour right through society and

0:41:160:41:20

we have to take leadership on this

and will betide anybody that plays

0:41:200:41:23

with that. All political parties

have to accept responsibility.

Are

0:41:230:41:29

you satisfied with the grievance

procedure outcome?

We are in the

0:41:290:41:33

foothills because we have to then

have the working party looking at

0:41:330:41:36

the detail but it is fantastic to

see the party leaders around a table

0:41:360:41:42

speaking to each other face-to-face

rather than across the floor of the

0:41:420:41:46

Commons and also this is so shocking

and everybody is shocked by it,

0:41:460:41:50

right from the journalists who have

been subject to it from time to

0:41:500:41:54

time, right through to very serious

sexual assault allegations which are

0:41:540:41:58

being looked at by

0:41:580:42:09

the police.

Are you confident that

people who work on the parliamentary

0:42:100:42:12

estate, whether they be researchers,

activists, lobbyists, journalists,

0:42:120:42:14

MPs, Cabinet ministers, how may step

up and behave normally, properly,

0:42:140:42:16

and with respect?

They have to.

Are

you confident they can?

Yes. People

0:42:160:42:24

have to...

Criminal activity, they

will lose their seats. It is not

0:42:240:42:29

criminal activity, just grim

behaviour.

We must make it

0:42:290:42:33

absolutely clear society has to

change, the kind of issues that have

0:42:330:42:36

come to light not acceptable. This

is the opportunity for politicians

0:42:360:42:41

to take a lead and show there has to

be respect. One of the things that

0:42:410:42:45

has to come out of this is training,

for 4-star.

What do you mean,

0:42:450:42:52

consent classes?

-- 4-star. Consent

classes.

Do you agree?

So many

0:42:520:42:59

people come into Parliament from

many different walks of life, many

0:42:590:43:02

have never employed anybody, others

are HR managers, a huge gap between

0:43:020:43:07

some people coming in...

Wherever

you have come from into Parliament,

0:43:070:43:12

you know not to pinch someone's

backside, do you know not to send

0:43:120:43:17

them the sexually explicit text when

they have applied for a job,

0:43:170:43:21

everybody knows that.

You would have

thought so, but unfortunately, some

0:43:210:43:25

have not lived by that code.

Alistair Carmichael has just joined

0:43:250:43:28

us. The Chief Whip for the Liberal

Democrats. Good morning. Yesterday

0:43:280:43:35

your party suspended an MP and

referred allegations to the police.

0:43:350:43:39

An activist claimed Lib Dem HQ

hushed up the rape complaint made

0:43:390:43:44

against a party activist. What is

this culture of wanting to push

0:43:440:43:48

things up?

You said we had suspended

a Member of Parliament yesterday,

0:43:480:43:52

that is not it. The case you are

referring to, an allegation of a

0:43:520:43:59

rape was made and that was passed on

to the police. I do not think it is

0:43:590:44:03

fair to characterise that as some

sort of cover-up.

Right, OK. There

0:44:030:44:08

is a desire, you have to

acknowledge... As the Chief Whip,

0:44:080:44:12

there was a desire, not just the

Chief Whip of the Lib Dems, but

0:44:120:44:18

there is a desire to protect the

party rather than show duty of care

0:44:180:44:23

to individuals?

No, there is no

doubt this has been... That has

0:44:230:44:30

perhaps been the way business has

been done in the House of Commons in

0:44:300:44:33

the past and we have all in our

different parties had instances of

0:44:330:44:38

cases where it could have been done

better. I think the message that

0:44:380:44:43

came very clearly from yesterday's

meeting is that what ever has been

0:44:430:44:47

done in the past, whatever the

inadequacies of that, we have all

0:44:470:44:51

learned at different times, in my

party, very robust procedures in

0:44:510:44:54

case a couple of years ago, that the

culture has changed and people who

0:44:540:44:59

have suffered this treatment in the

past or might suffer it now, they

0:44:590:45:05

should feel able to come forward and

report it in the confidence the

0:45:050:45:09

investigation will be proper and

robust.

Does that mean you are

0:45:090:45:12

saying that you do not have

information about the misdemeanours

0:45:120:45:19

of MPs that you are keeping to

yourself in order to put pressure on

0:45:190:45:23

them at some point to vote a

particular way on an issue?

0:45:230:45:26

Blackmail?

Absolutely not. There has

been no time where I have ever used

0:45:260:45:34

information I have held about

somebody's misdemeanours in order to

0:45:340:45:37

get them to behave in a certain way.

That has not been the way we have

0:45:370:45:41

done business.

0:45:410:45:45

If somebody came to you and

suggested that someone senior in the

0:45:450:45:50

Liberal Democrats had sexually

harassed them. What would you do

0:45:500:45:53

with that information?

There is a

process to be gone through here. In

0:45:530:45:57

the Liberal Democrats we have a

pastoral care officer whose job it

0:45:570:46:01

is to take complaints like that to

deal with them, either within the

0:46:010:46:05

party or if it involves a case of

serious criminal behaviour, they

0:46:050:46:10

have to help that person make

complaint to the person.

0:46:100:46:14

-- police.

The individual should probably be

0:46:140:46:20

suspended in the meantime.

Yes. If

they are a party member, they should

0:46:200:46:29

be suspended.

There seems to be an

issue regarding alcohol according to

0:46:290:46:35

a come we spoke to who said she had

seen women plied with drink in the

0:46:350:46:40

Parliamentary bars and women were

treated as meat. Is that fair?

Well,

0:46:400:46:44

I think some of the bars should

close. We should have strangers

0:46:440:46:48

where you can invite a um can have

constituents in for a friendly pint

0:46:480:46:53

and it is well managed that bar, but

some of the others, like the sports

0:46:530:46:58

and social, why people can't go out

of Parliament and have their drink

0:46:580:47:01

out there and then it is not a

Parliamentary problem.

So just push

0:47:010:47:04

it somewhere else?

Once you are out

there, you have police. You have

0:47:040:47:08

licensing regulations and so on. At

the moment...

How many bars are

0:47:080:47:14

theren ot Parliamentary estate?

There are a number of bars. We have

0:47:140:47:16

to clean up our act.

Do you agree,

close them all, apart from one?

0:47:160:47:21

There is an issue with sports and

social. I don't like sports and

0:47:210:47:23

social. I never go there. The

atmosphere about the place is

0:47:230:47:27

something I would question.

It is

aggressive.

Sorry, it is aggressive?

0:47:270:47:31

You walk in and it feels like an old

boozer. It is not a workplace. How

0:47:310:47:36

many people is there a bar in the

BBC where your people can pop down

0:47:360:47:39

for a drink after this show, have a

drink and come back to work?

It is

0:47:390:47:45

not modern. Some of our audience say

take away the subsidy.

I don't think

0:47:450:47:53

any Parliamentarian wants to be in a

environment where it is being

0:47:530:47:59

subsidised.

Change it then. Don't

just make the point, do something.

0:47:590:48:04

That's what we did yesterday by

setting up this working group. We

0:48:040:48:08

need to move ahead quickly and we

need to make sure that we can be a

0:48:080:48:12

modern people that treats people

with respect. It has to be

0:48:120:48:17

protecting the rights of all our

members. This is the opportunity to

0:48:170:48:20

get this right and if we don't do

harks the public will judge us and

0:48:200:48:23

judge us rightly on the failure to

act in an appropriate manner. With

0:48:230:48:27

he need to make sure that people are

protected and we take a lead through

0:48:270:48:33

society.

I'm told there is a sign

outside the sports bar, what happens

0:48:330:48:40

here stays here. Violators will be

shot.

This goes back to the culture.

0:48:400:48:47

We want to have from what I can see

the party leaders sitting around the

0:48:470:48:52

table which they haven't done on

Northern Ireland or Brexit or any of

0:48:520:48:55

the other things which are

happening, they are doing it because

0:48:550:48:57

we have to take responsibility now.

And we have to change the culture.

0:48:570:48:59

OK. Thank you all. Thank you very

much. Catherine, Ian, and Allister.

0:48:590:49:10

Thank you.

0:49:100:49:13

Coming up:

0:49:130:49:14

We'll be talking to two people

who receive Universal Credit

0:49:140:49:17

as the Government is being warned

that foodbanks could struggle

0:49:170:49:19

to meet demand this winter

unless urgent action is taken.

0:49:190:49:25

A husband who lost his wife

to cancer is hoping to realise

0:49:260:49:30

their dream of having a child

through a surrogate.

0:49:300:49:33

Emmy Coates died in June, just 18

months after she'd been diagnosed

0:49:330:49:36

with thyroid cancer.

0:49:360:49:39

She was 31.

0:49:390:49:45

She'd blogged about her dream

of becoming a mum and said husband

0:49:450:49:49

Jake would be the

"best dad in the world".

0:49:490:49:51

They'd discovered

they were pregnant with a surrogate

0:49:510:49:53

just weeks before her death.

0:49:530:49:54

Together, Emmy and Jake had

raised over £140,000

0:49:540:50:00

for the Royal Marsden Hospital

in London, by cycling across Europe

0:50:000:50:09

and tonight, on ITV,

you'll be able to see Jake pick

0:50:090:50:11

up his Daily Mirror Pride

of Britain Award for

0:50:110:50:13

Fundraiser of the Year.

0:50:130:50:15

She will kill me for saying it, but

there is one nurse we named our

0:50:150:50:22

tandem after called Tara Hurly who

an angel from heaven who has given

0:50:220:50:27

me sop much strength and she gave

Emmy so many smiles and so much

0:50:270:50:33

laughter and the Royal Marsden

Hospital is the most incredible

0:50:330:50:35

place and I feel very honoured...

APPLAUSE

0:50:350:50:46

Well, fi guess they just don't make

gentlemen like you anymore. No, I

0:50:460:50:50

think they broke the mould when they

made him. I just want to

0:50:500:50:55

congratulate you because you really,

you really, really, really, deserve

0:50:550:50:59

this award.

APPLAUSE

0:50:590:51:07

Thank you, Amanda. Thank you, Joan

and congratulations once again.

0:51:070:51:15

APPLAUSE

To Emmy and Jake Coates.

0:51:150:51:29

APPLAUSE

0:51:320:51:32

And Jake joins us now.

0:51:320:51:37

How are you doing?

I was getting

emotional hearing you talk about it.

0:51:370:51:42

It is quite close sometimes.

Of

course. I'm going to ask you about

0:51:420:51:47

Emmy and tell our audience when you

first met her?

We met when we were

0:51:470:51:52

11 years old. We met 24 days to the

day we got marred kid and we went to

0:51:520:51:59

secondary school in Hereford

Cathedral.

When you were 13 you

0:51:590:52:01

said, you said that she was your

lobster. What did you mean?

That

0:52:010:52:08

refers to a wonderful Friends

episode where Phoebe remarks on Ross

0:52:080:52:13

and Rachel as being lobsters and

apparently lobsters mate for life.

0:52:130:52:17

So my point to that was that, you

know, we were always kind of meant

0:52:170:52:21

to be and we would always be

together.

0:52:210:52:25

I mean you did split up, but then

you got back together a decade

0:52:250:52:29

later. And you knew you were

planning on proposing when you

0:52:290:52:33

discovered a lump in her neck, is

that right?

Yes. So, we really

0:52:330:52:37

hadn't been back in touch very long.

We got back in touch in October

0:52:370:52:43

2015, over social media. I was in

Australia working as a doctor. I

0:52:430:52:47

came back to visit at Christmas and

she came out in the February half

0:52:470:52:51

term and over that time, I was so

certain that this was exactly what I

0:52:510:52:54

wanted and you know, I thought it

would be the best thing, that I

0:52:540:52:58

started planning the proposal,

buying the ring and I planned to

0:52:580:53:02

propose in March, in the Philippines

on holiday, a wonderful holiday, but

0:53:020:53:05

when she came out in February, I

have got this muscle in my neck

0:53:050:53:11

would you mind giving me a massage

and it was just straightaway, she

0:53:110:53:16

had these very rubbery kind of bunch

of grape limpth nodes innier neck,

0:53:160:53:22

you are taught at med school, they

are a sign of badness. It doesn't

0:53:220:53:29

mean thyroid cancer, but it often

means something nasty.

You were

0:53:290:53:37

worried straightaway. Your concerns

were right. How shocking was it for

0:53:370:53:41

you both to receive that news?

Yeah,

that was pretty awful. I sent, I

0:53:410:53:46

said go, back have a neck biopsy.

She went back and they rushed it and

0:53:460:53:51

did it within a couple of weeks. The

results came back but because I knew

0:53:510:53:57

it had spread to the limpth nodes, I

knew it was bad. I flew back the

0:53:570:54:04

moment she got the diagnosis and it

was only, it was very quick from

0:54:040:54:07

then on really. She had been waiting

a long time. She had been having

0:54:070:54:10

symptom for a long time, almost two

years, but once we got that, jumped

0:54:100:54:14

that hurdle, everything just kind of

fell like dominoes and we were

0:54:140:54:18

referred to the Royal Marsden very

quickly and I can't even begin

0:54:180:54:23

actually, it breaks my heart now

thinking about those days when she

0:54:230:54:26

was diagnosed because it was a

really tough time.

0:54:260:54:29

One of the things that stands out

and there are many about Emmy is

0:54:290:54:32

that she, it seemed like she wanted

to confront it.

Yes.

And with the

0:54:320:54:36

time that was left, get on with it

and live life?

Yeah. I think that

0:54:360:54:40

was it. I think that's the thing,

that's garnered the most support

0:54:400:54:46

from people and the public, one

thing was raising awareness of cans

0:54:460:54:50

nears young people, and raising

money for an amazing place like the

0:54:500:54:53

royal marred den, but she ended up

kind of with her blog and with her

0:54:530:55:00

outlook in life, her attitude to the

cancer, this overwhelming adversity

0:55:000:55:04

was so incredible. I think she

pulled everybody else with her,

0:55:040:55:07

along with her, she certainly pulled

me along. She gave me the confidence

0:55:070:55:11

to keep going and I think much of

the 18 months when she was ill, we

0:55:110:55:15

lived in denial because I think we

both thought she would have a lot

0:55:150:55:19

longer really. They gave her a 10%

prognosis of living five years. It

0:55:190:55:24

wasn't a question that she was going

to be that 5%, she had the gumption

0:55:240:55:31

and belief.

You did this magnificent

cycle ride to raise all this money.

0:55:310:55:35

But that, that must have been really

challenging at times particularly

0:55:350:55:39

for her, obviously?

Yeah. You

wouldn't have known it though.

0:55:390:55:42

Really.

She was so strong. She was

very gifted athlete anyway. But she,

0:55:420:55:49

I mean, on a tandem, you are quite

close to each other and she had her

0:55:490:55:53

head or face about a foot away from

my bum more about four weeks.

She

0:55:530:55:57

must have loved it.

Yeah, but you

know, we had battling winds and rain

0:55:570:56:03

the whole time and she didn't

complain once. She was amazing.

Did

0:56:030:56:10

fund-raising help both of you?

Yeah.

Undoubtedly. Over that period of

0:56:100:56:16

time we gave ourselves lots of

things to focus on. We got married.

0:56:160:56:19

It was a huge thing. Having a kind

of small steps, thinking about

0:56:190:56:23

things a few months away, maybe a

holiday or something to tick off the

0:56:230:56:27

bucket list and the fund-raising was

that. The block and the

0:56:270:56:31

fund-raising, that whole kind of

thing that grew was something that

0:56:310:56:35

really gave us both a lot of

strength and the fund raiding, when

0:56:350:56:38

you see it ticking over and so many

people also fund raiding on you are

0:56:380:56:43

behalf. This is thanks to everybody

really who has done so much for us.

0:56:430:56:47

So that gave her so much positive

energy.

0:56:470:56:52

Before Emmy died, you made this

incredible decision to try and have

0:56:520:56:57

a baby using the eggs that she had

frozen before chemotherapy had begun

0:56:570:57:02

and using a surrogate and actually

before she died, the surrogate was

0:57:020:57:06

pregnant?

Yes, that's right. So,

about two weeks before she passed

0:57:060:57:11

away, when Emmy was kind of last

fully with us, compus mentus, we had

0:57:110:57:18

a positive pregnancy test, we had

three. Liz came to our house and it

0:57:180:57:21

was a wonderful day. Emmy, we were

so rushed off our feet over the

0:57:210:57:27

previous weeks, she had nothing

left. So by the time we had the

0:57:270:57:31

pregnancy test back positive, it was

only half an hour, she was falling

0:57:310:57:34

asleep. She was fully empty. She had

nothing left. And then

0:57:340:57:39

unfortunately, I didn't see it

coming. I mean in retrospect having

0:57:390:57:42

looked at her and how frail she had

become, I should have, but she just

0:57:420:57:46

had become very, very weak and she,

it had just come after a course of

0:57:460:57:51

radiotherapy and afterwards you get

tired, but she didn't quite wake up

0:57:510:57:54

this time and then rushed her back

to hospital. There was nothing

0:57:540:57:59

acutely different, it was just

progression and we decided, I

0:57:590:58:02

decided to get her home. She wanted

to go home and I didn't want her

0:58:020:58:05

dying in hospital. So we took her

home.

It is so upsetting. But she

0:58:050:58:10

knew the surrogate was pregnant.

That's right. That was huge. That

0:58:100:58:14

was massive for her.

But sadly the

pregnancy was ectopic and the baby

0:58:140:58:20

lost, but you are going to try

again.

That's right. That was a

0:58:200:58:25

really tough time. Afterwards,

feeling numb and not knowing what

0:58:250:58:28

was going on, Liz the surrogate who

is just an angle said she had an

0:58:280:58:33

ectopic and we spent a couple of

days in hospital dealing with that,

0:58:330:58:36

but it was never a question in my

mind that I would do it again and

0:58:360:58:39

Liz as well has been amazing. She

has come forward and said, I would

0:58:390:58:42

love to do this again for you.

You told your story to the Daily

0:58:420:58:47

Mirror. I wonder what you think

about the future.

It's, I guess, so

0:58:470:58:54

uncertain. I don't want to breathe

too heavily because I so desperately

0:58:540:58:59

want this to happen. You are in the

lap of the gods as it were, if this

0:58:590:59:04

can happen, it would be the most

amazing thing. To have a little part

0:59:040:59:08

of Emmy, it would mean everything

because at times it has been really

0:59:080:59:11

dark and having something to kind of

focus on the future would be

0:59:110:59:15

massive. I know how much Emmy wanted

it and I want it for her.

Thank you

0:59:150:59:19

very much.

Thank you.

Thank you,

Jake. Thank you for coming in.

0:59:190:59:25

Well done on the award.

Thank you

very much.

0:59:250:59:31

Emmy's blog, people can go to it and

see her writing?

Absolutely. This is

0:59:310:59:36

what I want to try and do, keep the

message alive. She had a motto which

0:59:360:59:41

was smile, love and be kind. It was

really simple, but people latched on

0:59:410:59:47

to it.

Say it again.

Smile, love and

be kind. People re-evaluated their

0:59:470:59:53

own lives, not just their health,

what can they do differently, if she

0:59:530:59:57

can do it facing what she faced what

excuse do we have to worry and kind

0:59:571:00:03

of feel sorry for ourselves, you

know. It is a massive privilege to

1:00:031:00:09

be able to take that message on and

keep that message alive.

Thank you

1:00:091:00:13

very much, Jake. Thank you for

telling us about Emmy.

1:00:131:00:17

You can watch the Pride of Britain

Awards tonight at 8pm on ITV.

1:00:171:00:21

Let's get the latest weather update.

1:00:211:00:26

That has not been the way we have

done business.

1:00:261:00:30

Heavy rain this morning in

Queensbury not too far from

1:00:301:00:33

Edinburgh, it has been wet. Also

went across Cumbria, a band of rain

1:00:331:00:38

sinking south. Behind it, turning

colder. Temperatures at the moment

1:00:381:00:45

in Belfast, six. We started off with

higher values but as the cold front

1:00:451:00:49

went through, the temperature

dropped. Temperatures holding true

1:00:491:00:55

around the band of rain. Some of the

rain has been heavy, a lot of

1:00:551:01:00

surface water and spray on the

roads. The band will continue to

1:01:001:01:05

journey slowly south-east through

the day. Ahead of it, quite a lot of

1:01:051:01:11

cloud, showers, blustery. Behind it,

cloud but brightening up with

1:01:111:01:16

sunshine and showers across Scotland

and Northern Ireland. Into the

1:01:161:01:19

afternoon, we still will have the

band of rain across Yorkshire,

1:01:191:01:25

Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, the

Midlands, ahead of it, still a fair

1:01:251:01:28

bit of cloud, showers, and

temperatures still in double

1:01:281:01:31

figures. Around the band, it will be

blustery, gusty winds along the

1:01:311:01:36

south coast, and behind the band,

brighter spells, some sunshine and a

1:01:361:01:42

few showers. This afternoon across

much of Wales, showers, sunshine

1:01:421:01:46

coming out across western parts of

Wales. Northern Ireland, a lot of

1:01:461:01:51

sunshine with some showers in the

West. Some of those are likely to be

1:01:511:01:56

heavy and possibly thundery. As they

are across western parts of

1:01:561:01:59

Scotland. The rest of Scotland, dry

afternoon with lengthy sunny spells.

1:01:591:02:05

Temperature wise, in Manchester,

about 11 degrees. As the band of

1:02:051:02:13

rain goes through, we are looking at

eight this afternoon. This evening

1:02:131:02:17

and overnight, the band of rain

continues to drift south-east as a

1:02:171:02:21

weakening feature. Behind it,

clearing skies, cold night. In rural

1:02:211:02:30

areas, it will be lower, so we could

be looking at temperatures well

1:02:301:02:34

below freezing for some with a touch

of frost and patchy mist and fog.

1:02:341:02:39

Tomorrow, the remnants of today's

front slowly clearing, high pressure

1:02:391:02:43

still with us, and other weather

front coming in from the West

1:02:431:02:46

introducing wet and windy conditions

again with gales in the north-west

1:02:461:02:52

but a lot of dry and sunny weather.

In the south-east, a bit more cloud

1:02:521:02:57

and temperatures here up to 11.

1:02:571:03:07

Hello it's Tuesday, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:03:071:03:12

This morning...

1:03:121:03:13

the controversial policy

of stop and search -

1:03:131:03:15

is it an important measure

in tackling knife crime or does it

1:03:151:03:18

just lead to alienation

of the black community?

1:03:181:03:19

I've been stopped over 70 times

because of my colour.

1:03:191:03:22

Even now I do something good

for the community, I get stopped.

1:03:221:03:25

Our report in the next

hour and really keen

1:03:251:03:27

to hear your experiences too.

1:03:271:03:31

We will speak to someone who's son

was stabbed to death. Plus, a woman

1:03:311:03:38

seeking a

1:03:381:03:41

was stabbed to death. Plus, a woman

seeking a private rain prosecution

1:03:411:03:43

tells this programme she hopes to

lead the way for those let down by

1:03:431:03:46

the courts.

When I worked up, I had

never seen him before and I was on a

1:03:461:03:51

hotel bed. I woke up cold, with a

sheet on me that had a really

1:03:511:03:58

particular texture to it and I knew

it wasn't mine.

Did you have any

1:03:581:04:04

clothes on?

No, I was completely

naked. You can hear her interview

1:04:041:04:11

before 11. And foodbanks could

struggle to meet demand this winter

1:04:111:04:16

unless urgent action is taken to

improve Universal Credit. We will

1:04:161:04:19

hear from those affected.

1:04:191:04:23

The latest news now with Rebecca.

Leaked documents analysed by the

1:04:311:04:38

BBC's Panorama and the international

consortium of investigative

1:04:381:04:41

journalists reveal Apple moved

profits to Jersey after a tax

1:04:411:04:47

loophole in Ireland was close. The

arrangement isn't illegal, but it

1:04:471:04:53

means the technology giant saves

billions in corporation tax. Apple

1:04:531:04:56

says it remains the world's largest

taxpayer. The files also showed

1:04:561:05:01

Formula 1 world champion Lewis

Hamilton avoided tax on a luxury jet

1:05:011:05:05

he bought by importing it to the

Isle of Man. Our economics

1:05:051:05:12

correspondent has more.

1:05:121:05:22

COMMENTATOR:

Hamilton

is world champion...

1:05:221:05:24

Five years ago, Lewis Hamilton

bought his own luxury jet

1:05:241:05:26

worth £16.5 million.

1:05:261:05:27

It was something he'd always wanted.

1:05:271:05:28

This is your plane.

1:05:281:05:29

If I get a plane, I'm

going to pimp it out?

1:05:291:05:32

Paint it red, yeah?

1:05:321:05:33

Exactly.

1:05:331:05:34

In January, 2013, the Formula 1

champion landed his new private

1:05:341:05:37

plane at the Isle of Man's airport,

importing it there.

1:05:371:05:39

Isle of Man customs officials

met him at 6:15am to finalise

1:05:391:05:42

the paperwork and sign off on a VAT

refund of £3.3 million.

1:05:421:05:46

I can't believe I have my own plane

still, after all these years.

1:05:461:05:49

Under EU rules, you're only meant

to get a refund if the jet's used

1:05:491:05:53

for commercial purposes,

but the documents suggest Hamilton

1:05:531:05:56

was planning to spend a third

of his flying time on personal use,

1:05:561:06:00

and he's not alone.

1:06:001:06:03

The leaks also show the Isle of Man

paid £790 million in VAT refunds

1:06:031:06:07

to jet-leasing companies.

1:06:071:06:09

If they're using it for private

purposes, the fact that all this

1:06:091:06:12

money is being refunded

is quite shocking.

1:06:121:06:14

You should not be getting VAT back

if it's private usage

1:06:141:06:17

and you're getting VAT back.

1:06:171:06:20

Mr Hamilton's lawyer said

the arrangement was lawful.

1:06:201:06:23

The documents also reveal how

the iPhone maker Apple used

1:06:231:06:29

a British Crown dependency

to keep its tax bill down.

1:06:291:06:32

We pay all the taxes we owe,

every single dollar.

1:06:321:06:35

We not only comply with

the laws, but we comply

1:06:351:06:39

with the spirit of the laws.

1:06:391:06:40

We don't depend on tax gimmicks.

1:06:401:06:44

In 2014, Ireland announced

it would ban companies

1:06:441:06:46

with no tax residency.

1:06:461:06:51

That meant Apple needed a tax

residency for its lucrative

1:06:511:06:56

Irish subsidiaries fast,

so it sent out a questionnaire

1:06:561:07:03

courting tax havens and it chose

Jersey, where its $261 billion pile

1:07:031:07:08

of cash from selling phones

and iPads is now tax resident.

1:07:081:07:11

Apple said the structure hadn't

lowered its taxes and it remained

1:07:111:07:13

the world's largest taxpayer.

1:07:131:07:14

Andy Verity, BBC News.

1:07:141:07:19

The Jersey government have

responded. In a statement, they say,

1:07:191:07:24

Jersey does not want abusive tax

avoidance schemes operating in the

1:07:241:07:29

island and it expects financial

service providers to abide by a

1:07:291:07:32

voluntary code to say they will not

take on this kind of business. The

1:07:321:07:36

allegations will be investigated and

we are asking the ICI J to provide

1:07:361:07:41

relevant documents to support this

action. The husband of a British

1:07:411:07:46

Iranian woman jailed in Iran has

urged the Foreign Secretary, Boris

1:07:461:07:52

Johnson, to attract in Parliament

and error he made in talking about

1:07:521:07:54

the case. Mr Johnson told MPs

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe had been

1:07:541:08:00

training journalists. Her husband,

Richard, said she was on holiday.

1:08:001:08:04

The legal authorities in Iran have

threatened to increase the five-year

1:08:041:08:08

sentence imposed on her. Victoria

will be talking to Richard, the

1:08:081:08:14

husband of the British woman jailed

in Iran, at 10:25am. The Prime

1:08:141:08:19

Minister has asked for the

ministerial code of conduct to be

1:08:191:08:22

tightened after an MP apologised for

holding secret meetings with Israeli

1:08:221:08:27

officials in the summer.

1:08:271:08:37

Priti Patel - the International

Development Secretary -

1:08:381:08:40

apologised for not informing

the Foreign Office and suggesting

1:08:401:08:42

Boris Johnson knew in

advance of the visit.

1:08:421:08:44

Labour said the "shocking" admission

warranted a Cabinet Office inquiry.

1:08:441:08:46

US President Donald Trump has

been greeted with full

1:08:461:08:48

ceremony in South Korea,

on the latest leg of

1:08:481:08:50

his tour of East Asia.

1:08:501:08:52

His 24-hour visit comes as tensions

remain high on the Korean peninsula.

1:08:521:08:56

President Trump has said he is

hopeful North Korea can be persuaded

1:08:561:09:01

to enter into negotiations but he

also warned the north America was

1:09:011:09:05

prepared to use its military might

to defend itself against aggression,

1:09:051:09:10

if it had to.

North Korea is a

worldwide threat that requires

1:09:101:09:16

worldwide action. We call on every

responsible nation, including China

1:09:161:09:22

and Russia, to demand that the North

Korean regime end its nuclear

1:09:221:09:27

weapons and its missile programmes

and live in peace. As the South

1:09:271:09:33

Korean people know so well, it is

time to act with urgency and with

1:09:331:09:38

great determination.

That is a

summary of the latest BBC News. More

1:09:381:09:45

at 10:30am. An e-mail from Mark, it

is politically correct programmes

1:09:451:09:50

like yours which want everyone to

think they are a victim which has

1:09:501:09:53

directly led to an increase in knife

attacks and acid attacks. I would

1:09:531:09:58

rather my 16-year-old son be stopped

and searched every day than the --

1:09:581:10:06

and be safe. Leftist propaganda

shows like yours are making it more

1:10:061:10:11

difficult for the police. An

ex-police officer says they have had

1:10:111:10:16

16 years experience, many serious

issues with the Met Police, one of

1:10:161:10:19

which is trust. There is no trust.

Police officers do not trust other

1:10:191:10:24

police officers so how can members

of the public reasonably trust them?

1:10:241:10:28

Keep those coming in, a further

conversation about stop and search

1:10:281:10:32

after 10:30am. Send me an e-mail,

Facebook, WhatsApp, and if you are

1:10:321:10:37

texting, you will be charged. Sport.

1:10:371:10:48

David -- David Moyes is the new

manager. Stuart Pearce in line to

1:10:491:10:55

come in as his number two could

placate the fans. West Ham have

1:10:551:10:59

posted a video of David Moyes on

social media this morning saying how

1:10:591:11:02

much he is looking forward to the

job.

I'm really looking forward to

1:11:021:11:06

meeting the supporters, being in the

stadium with them, looking forward

1:11:061:11:09

to seeing them getting right behind

the team.

1:11:091:11:18

Confirmation of that, the

appointment of David Moyes this

1:11:241:11:26

morning. England's preparation for

the Ashes has not been perfect,

1:11:261:11:31

without the all-rounder Ben Stokes

after the incident outside a Bristol

1:11:311:11:35

nightclub, and Steven Finn was

brought in to replace Ben Stokes but

1:11:351:11:38

now they have lost him. He is flying

home for treatment on a knee injury.

1:11:381:11:44

The first Test starts this month and

the England coach has already

1:11:441:11:47

decided on most of the side for the

Test.

I think we are a little bit

1:11:471:11:52

like Australia, probably down to

nine of the 11, one or two spots

1:11:521:11:59

still discussing and we still have

two more games to go yet. I am sure

1:11:591:12:05

it will work itself out before the

first Test.

Finally, it is known as

1:12:051:12:10

the race that stops a nation, an

incredible finish at the Melbourne

1:12:101:12:15

Cup. An Irish one, two, three. There

was an overtaking in the closing

1:12:151:12:25

sprint. The trainer of the winning

horse was Joseph O'Brien, that

1:12:251:12:29

trainer of the horse he beat of the

line was his father, Aidan O'Brien,

1:12:291:12:32

and the best in the world. Passing

on tips over the breakfast table!

1:12:321:12:37

Thank you very much.

1:12:371:12:41

Next, the Government's flagship

benefit reform Universal Credit

1:12:411:12:43

and claims that foodbank usage has

increased drastically in areas

1:12:431:12:46

where it's been introduced.

1:12:461:12:47

The Trussell Trust,

which is the UK's biggest

1:12:471:12:49

foodbank operator, says areas

where Universal Credit

1:12:491:12:53

has been in place for six months

have seen a 30% increase in demand

1:12:531:12:56

on the previous year.

1:12:561:12:57

The Government say it's

misleading to link foodbank

1:12:571:12:59

usage to any one issue.

1:12:591:13:03

This programme has been

following Universal Credit claimants

1:13:031:13:06

and spoke recently to two

people who have experienced serious

1:13:061:13:10

financial hardship as a result

to moving on to the new benefit.

1:13:101:13:16

Last weekend, we've had no food.

1:13:161:13:19

My five-year-old's last

food was school dinners.

1:13:191:13:22

On Saturday, we were

walking down the street,

1:13:221:13:25

she was searching in bins for food

because she was starving.

1:13:251:13:30

She was, like, ripping McDonald's

bags to see if there were any chips

1:13:301:13:33

or anything on the floor.

1:13:331:13:35

It was awful.

1:13:351:13:36

Broke my heart.

1:13:361:13:37

Sunday, there was no food.

1:13:371:13:40

She was going to bed,

her stomach was rumbling.

1:13:401:13:43

"I'm hungry, I'm

hungry, I'm hungry."

1:13:431:13:44

She had no food Saturday, Sunday.

1:13:441:13:46

Went to school really,

really hungry.

1:13:461:13:47

You take her to bed

and her tummy's rumbling.

1:13:471:13:51

You're just giving her water,

but she wants food and you can't...

1:13:511:13:54

I can't go to the shop and steal.

1:13:541:13:56

It's awful.

1:13:561:13:57

And I can't keep asking

neighbours for food.

1:13:571:13:59

I shouldn't have to live like this.

1:13:591:14:01

It's awful.

1:14:011:14:05

I've never struggled

like this before in my life.

1:14:051:14:08

I've never been in this situation

where I could lose my home.

1:14:081:14:12

It's a big thing.

1:14:121:14:14

I'll die on them streets.

1:14:141:14:16

If I do get evicted,

I don't know what I'll do.

1:14:161:14:19

I don't know where to go for help.

1:14:191:14:23

The chances are 50-50,

if I'm going to be homeless or not.

1:14:231:14:26

Where do I go?

1:14:261:14:27

I don't know really.

1:14:271:14:29

I daren't think that far ahead.

1:14:291:14:36

Kids...

1:14:411:14:43

Kids shouldn't have

to go through this.

1:14:431:14:48

No one should really.

1:14:481:14:53

With us in the studio

are Alison Inglis-Jones

1:14:531:14:57

from the Trussell Trust,

Daphine Aitkens who manages

1:14:571:15:04

Hammersmisth and Fulham foodbank,

and via Skype, two claimants

1:15:041:15:08

of the new benefit -

Brendan Faulkner, in Leeds,

1:15:081:15:10

and Brian Comley, in Southampton.

1:15:101:15:11

And in a moment, we'll

speak to Edward Boyd,

1:15:111:15:14

from the Centre for Social Justice -

the think tank set up by former

1:15:141:15:17

Welfare Secretary Ian Duncan Smith

who designed Universal Credit.

1:15:171:15:20

Allison, compared to the same period

last year, across the country, you

1:15:201:15:25

say foodbank usage is up 13%, but in

areas where Universal Credit has

1:15:251:15:30

been ruled out for six months or

Moore, a 30% on average increase,

1:15:301:15:34

how do you get these fingers?

--

figures? We measured the numbers of

1:15:341:15:39

people coming to the foodbanks

before the roll-out of Universal

1:15:391:15:43

Credit and after and what we saw was

a 30% rise.

How many foodbanks do

1:15:431:15:48

you run in total?

420.

So it was a

small sample.

Representative. A wide

1:15:481:15:58

geographical groupings across the

whole of the UK.

If the figures are

1:15:581:16:02

accurate, why do you say there has

been a much bigger rise in Universal

1:16:021:16:06

Credit areas?

As a volunteer in

three foodbanks and as a trustee, we

1:16:061:16:10

recognise the drivers of people

coming, they have to bring a voucher

1:16:101:16:15

with them, and Universal Credit is

being flagged over and over again as

1:16:151:16:18

one of the reasons why people are

coming and the stories we are

1:16:181:16:22

hearing in the foodbanks.

What about

you, Daphine? Have you seen a rise?

1:16:221:16:28

What are people saying to you about

why they are coming to your

1:16:281:16:32

foodbank?

A very significant rise in

Hammersmith and Fulham. The first

1:16:321:16:36

six months of the financial year,

very nearly double the same period

1:16:361:16:40

of last. We have seen almost 97%

increase. They are coming to us

1:16:401:16:46

primarily because of universal to

credit the stories, one of those you

1:16:461:16:52

heard earlier, one of my clients. No

benefits at all.

Waiting for

1:16:521:16:58

payment?

Her daughter was looking

through bins on the street. With

1:16:581:17:03

that, there is nothing coming in,

not just benefits, your rent,

1:17:031:17:06

housing benefit.

When the Department

for Work and Pensions says the

1:17:061:17:11

reasons for foodbank use are wide

and complex and linking it to one

1:17:111:17:16

issue would be misleading, how do

you respond?

University of Oxford

1:17:161:17:20

research has pinpointed why people

are coming and that is benefit

1:17:201:17:24

sanctions and delays followed by low

income as a driver.

They say, we are

1:17:241:17:28

clear advanced payments are widely

available from the start of anyone's

1:17:281:17:32

claim and urgent cases are fast

tracked so no one should be without

1:17:321:17:36

funds.

This is what they say. The

problem with the advance payments is

1:17:361:17:40

that they have to be paid back

almost immediately, the first time

1:17:401:17:51

you get your Universal Credit

payment, 13 weeks afterwards

1:17:511:17:53

perhaps, you have to start paying

the advance back in quite

1:17:531:17:55

significant amounts and somebody who

already has accrued debt and other

1:17:551:17:57

financial issues including rent

arrears, to start paying the debt

1:17:571:18:01

back immediately on very small

amounts of money, it is crazy. I

1:18:011:18:04

have a client who I saw on Friday,

her Universal Credit payment is less

1:18:041:18:08

than her housing benefit that she

has to pay each month.

Let me bring

1:18:081:18:11

in Brian. Thank you for coming on

the programme. What led you to using

1:18:111:18:17

a foodbank?

1:18:171:18:22

Mainly in between benefits when I

had to get some food in. I was going

1:18:221:18:28

to wait six weeks, but then I forced

them to sort of think about and give

1:18:281:18:34

me advance payment on the Universal

Credit which I have got £400 which I

1:18:341:18:38

have now paid back.

Right.

And what was that period of time

1:18:381:18:41

like?

Not, I want to really -- I

wasn't really worried about things.

1:18:411:18:50

I had a foodbank that come to me

once every Friday instead of just

1:18:501:18:55

for the two weeks. You had to wait

for one. But yeah, this one was

1:18:551:19:02

every Friday so you would look

forward to Friday.

Yes, but you were

1:19:021:19:06

reliant on it effectively for a

period of time?

For a period of

1:19:061:19:09

time, yeah.

Let me bring in Edward

Boyd for the Centre for Social

1:19:091:19:16

Justice. They designed Universal

Credit. I'm really glad you're here

1:19:161:19:21

because I am desperate to ask why

design a system that makes you wait

1:19:211:19:26

six weeks for the first payment?

Thank you for having us on. The

1:19:261:19:30

thirst thing to say...

No. No, just

answer that question first of all

1:19:301:19:33

because it is the key theme that

comes up every time.

You have to

1:19:331:19:38

split it into two parts. At the

moment when you come in as a new

1:19:381:19:42

claimant, when you get paid your

money, you are not paid for the

1:19:421:19:45

first seven days, when you get your

money there is a deficit in terms of

1:19:451:19:48

the income that you get. That was

never anything we designed and there

1:19:481:19:51

is a big reason why people are

falling into debt. We are relying on

1:19:511:19:56

foodbanks is something that we are

petitioning the Government to

1:19:561:19:58

change. The idea of being paid at

the end of the month, take that at

1:19:581:20:01

the end of the month when someone is

being paid is you will mirror what

1:20:011:20:04

it is like out of work with what it

is like into work. The idea here are

1:20:041:20:10

a group of people who are vulnerable

and out of work and you need to do

1:20:101:20:15

to all you can to support them into

work.

It is still six weeks before

1:20:151:20:20

the first payment?

No, it's not.

It's paid in arrears. You take away

1:20:201:20:25

the first week, it is only five

weeks which I think they should be

1:20:251:20:28

doing and looking to do in the

Budget. The idea of paying it in

1:20:281:20:33

arrears... For most people who move

on to Universal Credit they will be

1:20:331:20:38

in work already and they will

behaving a wage that's paid at the

1:20:381:20:41

end of the month and it makes sense

to sync the two together. If you are

1:20:411:20:46

talking about people out of work and

don't have savings, they should be

1:20:461:20:51

getting a payment upfront. You get

to within two weeks, and if you

1:20:511:20:54

really need it, the first day you go

into a Jobcentre, you should be

1:20:541:20:58

getting it that day. We heard over

the conference season this year,

1:20:581:21:01

that's what has been brought in now.

So it is a really welcome change. I

1:21:011:21:04

think they had an issue with this

about three to four months ago, not

1:21:041:21:11

enough people were getting budget

advances and the work coaches on the

1:21:111:21:14

ground weren't explaining it.

It is

still a problem because you get an

1:21:141:21:18

advanced payment and of course, you

have to pay that back, of course,

1:21:181:21:21

you do. By then, you're already in

debt. So it sort of spirals. That's

1:21:211:21:25

what we're hearing from people.

The

way that this payment works is you

1:21:251:21:29

pay it over six months, it's

interest-free.

It doesn't matter.

It

1:21:291:21:34

doesn't matter that it's interest

free?

People, on paper, this sounds

1:21:341:21:40

really as though it should work. In

reality I'm saying to you, we have

1:21:401:21:45

heard so many stories from people

that it is not working. That it is

1:21:451:21:49

making their lives really hard. I

don't feel that you are

1:21:491:21:52

understanding that.

Look, we deal

with, I help set-up a foodbank and I

1:21:521:21:58

speak to people like this all the

time. Trust me we understand that

1:21:581:22:03

side of things. You cannot compare a

stwempl that's not perfect and it is

1:22:031:22:06

not perfect as it is with the one

that came before because that was

1:22:061:22:09

even worse than the system that we

have got now. This is about

1:22:091:22:13

improving something...

I wasn't

comparing it to the one before. I

1:22:131:22:16

was wondering why it wasn't better

than it is.

This is about improving

1:22:161:22:21

the way that welfare works and

trying to minimise the number of

1:22:211:22:24

people that fall through the gaps.

You look at how it is working across

1:22:241:22:28

the whole country though and the

data, whether it is from IFS or the

1:22:281:22:33

Government, shows more people are in

work and more people are staying in

1:22:331:22:36

work than ever before.

So that's a

good thing.

The fact that people are

1:22:361:22:40

having to rely on foodbanks is not

how it should be. The fact that the

1:22:401:22:44

advanced payments are not getting to

these people is doing that DWP needs

1:22:441:22:50

to look. There is more people in

work as a result.

1:22:501:22:53

Thank you very much. Thank you to

all of you, thank you for coming on

1:22:531:22:56

the programme.

1:22:561:22:58

Still to come:

1:22:581:22:59

President Trump has arrived

in South Korea, on the latest leg

1:22:591:23:02

of his tour of East Asia.

1:23:021:23:03

We'll have the latest.

1:23:031:23:06

As if Theresa May didn't have

enough to worry about,

1:23:061:23:08

she's now got another couple

of problems on her plate -

1:23:081:23:11

both of them caused

by members of her Cabinet.

1:23:111:23:13

The Development Secretary,

Priti Patel, has caused her huge

1:23:131:23:15

embarrassment by holding talks

in Israel with senior government

1:23:151:23:17

figures without even

telling the Foreign Office.

1:23:171:23:25

And the Foreign Secretary himself,

Boris Johnson, has made unguarded

1:23:251:23:28

comments about a British women who's

being held in jail in Iran that

1:23:281:23:31

might mean her being

imprisoned even longer.

1:23:311:23:33

Our political guru,

Norman Smith, is here.

1:23:331:23:37

Hi Norman.

Hi.

In normal

circumstances would these two

1:23:371:23:42

ministers have lost their jobs by

now?

I think a lot of people at

1:23:421:23:46

Westminster think yes, they would

have been sacked, but because Mrs

1:23:461:23:50

May's Cabinet is just so fragile at

the moment she can't afford to boot

1:23:501:23:53

anyone out, but it is a fairly

extraordinary set of events that has

1:23:531:23:59

now unfolding. Normally on Tuesday

there is a Cabinet. There isn't a

1:23:591:24:04

Cabinet today and frankly that's

just as well because you suspect a

1:24:041:24:06

lot of Cabinet Ministers would sort

of looking rather shame faced at the

1:24:061:24:10

mess they are in. Top of the pile,

Boris Johnson, as you say, facing

1:24:101:24:16

mounting criticism after he appears

to have worsened the plight of this

1:24:161:24:20

British Iranian woman who has

already been jailed for five years

1:24:201:24:25

by mistakenly suggesting that she

had gone to Iran to help teach

1:24:251:24:29

journalism. The Iranian authorities

have said ah-ha, she was here to

1:24:291:24:36

spread propaganda against our regime

and are threatening to double her

1:24:361:24:40

jail sentence and this all stems

from comments Mr Johnson made last

1:24:401:24:45

week at the Foreign Affairs Select

Committee. Let's listen to what he

1:24:451:24:48

said.

1:24:481:24:51

When you look at what Nazanin

Zaghari-Ratcliffe was doing, she was

1:24:511:24:57

simply teaching people journalism as

I understand it.

Her husband said

1:24:571:25:05

that's incorrect. Her employers have

said that's just wrong. So wrong we

1:25:051:25:09

have not had an apology or

clarification from Mr Johnson, but

1:25:091:25:13

he is going to phone the Iranian

Foreign Minister later this morning.

1:25:131:25:19

Elsewhere, we have Priti Patel who

is been found out being economical

1:25:191:25:25

with the actuality about going and

seeing a whole load of Israeli

1:25:251:25:29

politicians during a holiday in

Israel, not telling the Foreign

1:25:291:25:32

Secretary or anyone in government

about it and not being very clear

1:25:321:25:36

about who she was meeting including,

it seems, the Israeli Prime

1:25:361:25:40

Minister. Then, of course, at the

table, wee have Damian Green. He is

1:25:401:25:45

shame faced because he's under

investigation about the Cabinet

1:25:451:25:49

Office over improper behaviour,

alleged improper behaviour and where

1:25:491:25:53

he had pornography on his computer.

We have got the new Chief Whip,

1:25:531:25:58

Gavin Williamson who has just been

promoted and a lot of people think

1:25:581:26:03

he only has been promoted because he

is Theresa May's best buddy and

1:26:031:26:07

Andrea Leadsom is facing accusations

she was the woman who knifed Michael

1:26:071:26:12

Fallon by saying Mr Fallon had made

improper remarks to her. My thinking

1:26:121:26:16

is Theresa May is going thank god I

don't have a Cabinet today!

1:26:161:26:21

Thank you very much, Norman.

1:26:211:26:27

We can speak now to the Conservative

MP Nadhim Zahawi sits

1:26:271:26:30

on the Foreign Affairs Select

Committee.

1:26:301:26:33

We can Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe's

husband, Richard Ratcliffe.

1:26:331:26:35

And the political commentator

Daisy McAndrew is here.

1:26:351:26:40

Should Boris Johnson resign?

No, I

don't think he should resign. The

1:26:401:26:46

important thing is to focus on

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe this. Is a

1:26:461:26:50

mother, a wife who was on holiday

and has been jailed and the Iranian

1:26:501:26:56

regime a couple of weeks ago were

looking at increasing her sentence.

1:26:561:27:01

Let's not forget what this is about.

No one is forgetting the precarious

1:27:011:27:12

position that Nazanin

Zaghari-Ratcliffe finds herself in,

1:27:121:27:15

apart, it seems, the Foreign

Secretary?

Well, I don't think

1:27:151:27:19

that's right. He on that committee,

said that he would personally want

1:27:191:27:24

to visit Nazanin. He will be

redoubling his efforts when he

1:27:241:27:29

speaks to the Iranian Foreign

Minister...

He got his facts wrong

1:27:291:27:36

in a very, very, in a way that he

should not have got his facts wrong

1:27:361:27:41

because somebody's life is depending

on the kind of comments that the

1:27:411:27:44

Foreign Secretary of this country

makes.

1:27:441:27:49

Well, Nazanin's life is depending on

the behaviour of the Revolutionary

1:27:491:27:54

Guard court. The IRGC and I think

let's be careful here. We've got to

1:27:541:27:58

make sure that we get Nazanin, she

is a British citizen, and mother and

1:27:581:28:02

a wife, she was on holiday...

So if

Boris Johnson makes mistakes about

1:28:021:28:06

why she was in the country, he is

not going to be able to get her out,

1:28:061:28:10

is he?

And he is going to be on the

phone making it very clear to his

1:28:101:28:17

counterpart in Iran that his words

to the committee were wrong and he

1:28:171:28:20

will redouble his efforts to get her

out and you know...

Has he rung his

1:28:201:28:27

Iranian counterpart already?

I can't

hear you. Well, I don't know because

1:28:271:28:34

I don't speak for Boris Johnson. I'm

a member of Parliament and I'm on

1:28:341:28:38

the Foreign Affairs Select

Committee, I want him to redouble

1:28:381:28:40

his efforts. What I don't want to

happen is Emily Thornbury and the

1:28:401:28:45

Labour Party to be seen as stodgies.

Oh, come on.

This is wrong. We

1:28:451:28:50

should focus on the behaviour of the

Iranian regime and put as must

1:28:501:28:54

pressure on them as possible to get

Nazanin back home.

The way you are

1:28:541:28:58

talking, it sounds as though you

don't really think Boris Johnson has

1:28:581:29:02

done anything wrong?

That's not

true, Victoria, with all respect. I

1:29:021:29:09

opened by saying to you he clearly

made a mistake...

And how damaging

1:29:091:29:13

is that.

He wants to put it right by

speaking to his counterpart. What is

1:29:131:29:20

damaging is the behaviour of the

regime and that's what we should

1:29:201:29:24

focus on.

Thank you for talking to

us.

1:29:241:29:30

Richard Ratcliffe is here as is

Daisy McAndrew.

1:29:301:29:34

Hello. How are you?

Hi, Victoria. It

has been a tough few days.

So how

1:29:341:29:41

damaging is it what Boris Johnson

said and just to let our audience

1:29:411:29:46

know, he told a Parliamentary

Committee that your wife was in Iran

1:29:461:29:50

teaching people journalism, a

reference to her role as programme

1:29:501:29:53

co-ordinator with the Thompson

Reuters foundation, which is not

1:29:531:29:56

true. She was not teaching people

journalism and days later a court

1:29:561:30:01

hearing in Tehran cited Mr Johnson's

comments as proof she was spreading

1:30:011:30:05

propaganda.

That's right. He spoke

in the Foreign Affairs Committee and

1:30:051:30:10

he said three things. One of which

was, the MP has just said, he

1:30:101:30:16

condemned Iran for its detention of

her. I was pleased. He said she was

1:30:161:30:22

training journalism which we were

not happy with and he offered to

1:30:221:30:25

visit. It was great and we picked up

on the positives and two days later

1:30:251:30:28

she was brought in front of the most

severe of the rev lieu court judges

1:30:281:30:32

and told there were new charges of

spreading propaganda against the

1:30:321:30:36

regime.

Which could lead to her

spending more years in jail?

It

1:30:361:30:43

depends on how many years. She has

been classed as a repeat offender.

1:30:431:30:47

We will see where it goes.

What do

you want from Boris Johnson?

He made

1:30:471:30:50

a statement to Parliament and we say

things sometimes that we don't quite

1:30:501:30:54

get right and I have said them in

interviews as well, but he can in

1:30:541:30:58

Parliament correct it and I think

the important thing to, rather than

1:30:581:31:01

a private phone call to the Foreign

Minister, is in Parliament to say

1:31:011:31:05

listen, Nazanin is innocent. She is

a mother on holiday and she wasn't

1:31:051:31:09

training journalist. That's clear.

It is clear to the Iranians and it

1:31:091:31:12

can't be man. Lated in the way that

the Iranian press have been doing

1:31:121:31:16

since.

Are you comfortable to see

him stay in his job?

It is not my

1:31:161:31:22

place to say what should happen with

the Foreign Secretary and I don't...

1:31:221:31:26

Is he good enough to be Foreign

Secretary?

I have only interest in

1:31:261:31:31

one foreign policy and that is

Nazanin and I am no no judge on

1:31:311:31:34

anything else. I am glad he engaged

with Nazanin's case last week and I

1:31:341:31:38

am glad he condemned Iran. I

wouldn't want him to back away. I

1:31:381:31:44

want him to continue doing what he

can to get her home.

Daisy, what do

1:31:441:31:49

you think?

Boris buffoony is only

one element of what's going on in

1:31:491:31:54

Westminster. It is the one element

that has an impact on your family.

1:31:541:31:57

The fact that he hasn't yet publicly

changed that statement I find

1:31:571:32:02

extraordinary. Sew said I'm going to

call the Iranians, but hasn't said I

1:32:021:32:09

got it categorically wrong and she

wasn't there training journalists.

1:32:091:32:11

We know he has got a massive track

record of buffoonish comments and

1:32:111:32:17

the lack of detail, but normally in

the past it has been hanging off a

1:32:171:32:21

zip wire and it hasn't affected

anyone and it has been a laugh. This

1:32:211:32:24

is not a laugh. This issier serious

and this is one of the reasons why

1:32:241:32:29

people were worried when he got this

position because his knowledge of

1:32:291:32:32

detail or ability to remember detail

sometimes has failed him in the past

1:32:321:32:35

and is doing so again.

As Foreign

Secretary, can you be across every

1:32:351:32:43

detail?

No, but this is a huge story

that has been running for a long

1:32:431:32:50

time, an innocent woman being held

in Iran. He should have known how

1:32:501:32:53

dangerous it would be if he got it

wrong which Egypt. He is one of many

1:32:531:32:58

Cabinet ministers making a hash of

the job at the moment.

How is your

1:32:581:33:02

wife at the moment?

Very shaken on

Saturday, she had just come out of

1:33:021:33:08

the court. It is what has happened

and the previous times being back in

1:33:081:33:13

solitary. I spoke to her on Sunday

and she was calmer. It is the

1:33:131:33:18

disorientation and a fear of what

this will mean.

I promised her we

1:33:181:33:21

will keep going. Thank you very much

for coming on the programme.

1:33:211:33:25

We will talk about an exclusive

interview we will bring you now with

1:33:251:33:32

a woman seeking what is thought to

be the UK's first crowd funded

1:33:321:33:37

private rape prosecution. She tells

us she hopes to lead the way for

1:33:371:33:41

those let down by the courts. Emily

Hunt claimed she was drugged and

1:33:411:33:47

raped in 2015. Police investigated,

the CPS felt there was insufficient

1:33:471:33:49

evidence to proceed. She has hired a

barrister who believes there are

1:33:491:33:55

grounds for a criminal prosecution.

She has waived her right to

1:33:551:33:59

anonymity to talk to us this

morning. Some of the conversation is

1:33:591:34:03

of a graphic nature and you might

not want children to hear.

1:34:031:34:10

When I woke up, I had

never seen him before.

1:34:101:34:13

I was on a hotel bed.

1:34:131:34:14

Basically, I woke up cold

and with a sheet on me that had

1:34:141:34:17

a really particular texture to it.

1:34:171:34:19

I knew it wasn't mine.

1:34:191:34:20

Did you have any clothes on?

1:34:201:34:22

No, I was completely naked.

1:34:221:34:23

And I didn't know

what was happening.

1:34:231:34:27

And then I looked over my shoulder

and I saw this man sitting

1:34:271:34:31

on the hotel bed, leaning up

against the headboard,

1:34:311:34:35

flipping channels and watching TV.

1:34:351:34:37

And I'd never seen him

before in my life, ever.

1:34:371:34:42

What condition were you in?

1:34:421:34:49

I was kind of in and out

for a little while.

1:34:491:34:56

When I finally, properly, came to,

1:34:561:34:58

I pretty quickly had this light bulb

moment that I'd been drugged.

1:34:581:35:01

I'd never felt like that before.

1:35:011:35:03

I'd never lost five hours of my life

completely and totally,

1:35:031:35:07

and wound up somewhere I didn't know

how I'd got there with someone

1:35:071:35:11

I'd never seen before.

1:35:111:35:12

What condition was he in?

1:35:121:35:13

He seemed quite relaxed.

1:35:131:35:14

He was just watching TV,

kind of laughing along.

1:35:141:35:18

Was he compos mentis, sober?

1:35:181:35:20

Yes, he was.

1:35:201:35:21

He seemed sober at the time and then

I found out later that he hadn't

1:35:211:35:25

even had a drop of alcohol.

1:35:251:35:26

He was completely sober.

1:35:261:35:27

What did you say?

1:35:271:35:28

What did you do?

1:35:281:35:29

I'm a bit fuzzy on that, actually.

1:35:291:35:36

I know that I sort of leaned

over, got my things.

1:35:361:35:38

They were in a pile next

to me on the floor.

1:35:381:35:41

I gathered up my belongings

and my handbag and went

1:35:411:35:45

into the bathroom and kind of hid

for at least ten minutes.

1:35:451:35:49

I phoned a friend and said,

"There's something really

1:35:491:35:51

wrong going on here.

1:35:511:35:52

I don't feel OK.

1:35:521:35:53

I feel in a way I've never felt

before and there's this guy."

1:35:531:35:57

And my friend rang the police.

1:35:571:35:59

Yeah.

1:35:591:36:01

Do you have any memory of how

you ended up in that hotel room

1:36:011:36:05

on that Sunday afternoon?

1:36:051:36:06

No.

1:36:061:36:07

The very last thing I remember

is having lunch with my dad.

1:36:071:36:10

We were in a local restaurant

we go to quite a lot

1:36:101:36:13

and we were having lunch.

1:36:131:36:16

And then the conversation went

a bit weird, and that's

1:36:161:36:20

the last thing I remember.

1:36:201:36:25

Later, much, much later,

you learned that this man had

1:36:251:36:29

in fact had sex with you.

1:36:291:36:31

You say he raped you.

1:36:311:36:33

And your argument was that it was

rape because there was no way

1:36:331:36:37

you could have consented

because of the condition

1:36:371:36:39

you were in.

1:36:391:36:39

So, when I woke up and was obviously

upset, hid in the bathroom.

1:36:391:36:43

When I came back out, I guess

he was trying to reassure me.

1:36:431:36:46

He said that nothing had happened.

1:36:461:36:51

I didn't find out until two days

later when the police finally

1:36:511:36:57

told me that he had said there had

been sex, but in his opinion,

1:36:571:37:00

it had been consensual.

1:37:001:37:02

On the night, in the hotel room,

because the police had

1:37:021:37:05

the hotel room immediately,

they had found used condoms.

1:37:051:37:07

That was the first I'd heard of it.

1:37:071:37:09

How did you react to it?

1:37:091:37:10

I was devastated.

1:37:101:37:13

I was really hoping

that he was telling the truth.

1:37:131:37:18

I probably knew he wasn't telling

the truth but denial

1:37:181:37:22

is a really strong thing.

1:37:221:37:25

It was terrifying to know,

for certain, that I'd been raped

1:37:251:37:30

and then the police hadn't told me

for two days.

1:37:301:37:36

I had to get all my

own after-rape care.

1:37:361:37:38

I had to get the morning after pill.

1:37:381:37:40

I had to go get protection

against sexually transmitted

1:37:401:37:42

diseases because the police hadn't

done any of that for me.

1:37:421:37:49

You also learned that this man had

filmed you naked and unconscious

1:37:491:37:51

on the bed and he'd masturbated

while you slept.

1:37:511:37:54

Yeah.

1:37:541:37:55

I actually didn't learn

that for about a year.

1:37:551:37:57

The police didn't tell me

until a year after the incident.

1:37:571:38:02

How did that make you feel?

1:38:021:38:04

I had a lot of difficulty

going through all of this.

1:38:041:38:11

I felt...

1:38:111:38:14

How could I have made my appeal?

1:38:141:38:16

When the CPS decided not

to charge, I appealed.

1:38:161:38:19

I couldn't make the appeal properly

because I didn't know two

1:38:191:38:22

really important things.

1:38:221:38:27

The first being that he had had no

alcohol in his system.

1:38:271:38:31

The second being that,

when he was arrested,

1:38:311:38:33

he had Viagra in his possession.

1:38:331:38:36

I don't know about you, but I can't

really imagine that a single guy,

1:38:361:38:39

walking around and going to a pub

on a Sunday afternoon

1:38:391:38:42

on his own would need Viagra

if he had no nefarious plans.

1:38:421:38:45

And then the final one was finding

out about the video.

1:38:451:38:48

I would have pushed the CPS

to investigate that

1:38:481:38:52

further, and they did.

1:38:521:38:54

They did an appeal on it.

1:38:541:39:02

Somewhat disturbingly, it turns out

that filming me while I was naked

1:39:021:39:05

and I am told unconscious.

1:39:051:39:06

It's clear I am unconscious

and not asleep.

1:39:061:39:08

You've not seen this footage?

1:39:081:39:11

They offered, and I

politely declined.

1:39:111:39:13

I don't need to see that.

1:39:131:39:14

There are no naked

pictures of me that exist.

1:39:141:39:16

I really don't want to see that.

1:39:161:39:19

But I'm told I'm quite

obviously unconscious.

1:39:191:39:27

The Crown Prosecution Service did

review whether or not any laws

1:39:271:39:30

were broken and they say

none were broken.

1:39:301:39:32

Toxicology tests showed you had two

times over the drink-drive

1:39:321:39:34

limit of alcohol in you.

1:39:341:39:35

Yeah.

1:39:351:39:37

They came back negative for any

signs of, for example, GHB,

1:39:371:39:40

which is the date rape drug.

1:39:401:39:44

There is CCTV footage of you,

and your alleged attacker,

1:39:441:39:48

leaving a bar, kissing and holding

hands as you walked to the hotel.

1:39:481:39:51

Do you remember any of that?

1:39:511:39:52

None.

1:39:521:39:53

I don't remember anything at all.

1:39:531:39:55

It's like I said earlier,

the first time I met him

1:39:551:39:57

was when I woke up naked

next to him.

1:39:571:40:00

So, I think I was drugged.

1:40:001:40:03

There are a couple of reasons why

the toxicology report is flawed.

1:40:031:40:06

It's something I've asked both

the police and the CPS

1:40:061:40:08

to address, and they haven't.

1:40:081:40:11

It turns out the Metropolitan Police

gave the toxicology lab

1:40:111:40:14

the wrong timeline,

which is a really big deal.

1:40:141:40:16

So, my last memory is around 4pm.

1:40:161:40:18

The time they gave

to the lab is 7pm.

1:40:181:40:23

The CPS say they looked at the CCTV

footage and considered the fact

1:40:231:40:30

the toxicology tests were negative

for any drugs, other than alcohol,

1:40:301:40:32

and made the decision there wasn't

enough evidence to proceed

1:40:321:40:35

with the case.

1:40:351:40:36

The Met says they carried out

a thorough investigation

1:40:361:40:44

following your allegations,

confirming that the CPS concluded

1:40:441:40:45

there was insufficient evidence

to bring a prosecution.

1:40:451:40:47

They talk about the fact

you subsequently made a number

1:40:471:40:50

of complaints to the Met

about your investigation.

1:40:501:40:52

They were passed to the IPCC,

that is the Independent

1:40:521:40:54

Complaints Commission.

1:40:541:40:55

That was independently

reviewed and not upheld.

1:40:551:41:01

You are now crowdfunding in order

to bring a private prosecution

1:41:011:41:04

against your alleged attacker.

1:41:041:41:05

Why?

1:41:051:41:10

There's a couple of reasons.

1:41:101:41:12

Again, the first one

being that the toxicology is flawed.

1:41:121:41:14

You can't make a decision

on whether or not I'd had enough

1:41:141:41:18

alcohol for a straightforward

consent case, based

1:41:181:41:20

on flawed toxicology.

1:41:201:41:21

How will you prove it's flawed?

1:41:211:41:25

Giving the lab the correct time will

change the way they do the maths,

1:41:251:41:28

to figure out what my levels were.

1:41:281:41:30

That, in itself, should

substantially help my case.

1:41:301:41:35

The second one is that the CCTV does

show me all over him.

1:41:351:41:40

I'm told that's a really common

effect of mixing alcohol and GHB,

1:41:401:41:43

that it has an ectasy-like quality.

1:41:431:41:45

The other thing the CCTV

shows me is me literally

1:41:451:41:48

falling over on a bench,

swaying, being very,

1:41:481:41:55

very clearly intoxicated.

1:41:551:41:57

With whatever I was intoxicated on,

1:41:571:41:59

it's very clear that I am not

remotely sober, and he is.

1:41:591:42:02

The toxicology again says he hadn't

had so much as a sip of alcohol.

1:42:021:42:05

So, there is that

side of it as well.

1:42:051:42:08

How would a private prosecution

work in practical terms?

1:42:081:42:12

It's an amazing thing.

1:42:121:42:16

In the UK, we can, as individuals,

hire a barrister to bring a criminal

1:42:161:42:21

charge, which isn't something I knew

before any of this happened to me.

1:42:211:42:24

And it basically goes forward,

like any other criminal case.

1:42:241:42:30

You have to gather all the evidence,

you have to submit in the same way

1:42:301:42:34

you would with the Crown doing it.

1:42:341:42:36

In some cases, the Crown

does take it back over

1:42:361:42:39

and they take it forward.

1:42:391:42:43

But it is an amazing thing that we,

as individuals, can actually bring

1:42:431:42:46

a criminal charge in a case

where the system has let us

1:42:461:42:49

down, which can result

in a rapist going to jail.

1:42:491:42:54

You must have considered

an alternative version of events,

1:42:541:43:00

which is, you were really drunk,

and you had sex with a man

1:43:001:43:04

and woke up thinking,

"Oh, my gosh, what have I done?"

1:43:041:43:09

Even if I was not drugged,

and I do believe I was,

1:43:091:43:13

even if I was not drugged,

I would have been completely

1:43:131:43:15

incapable of giving consent,

even if it were just alcohol.

1:43:151:43:19

Alcohol is very powerful, you know?

1:43:191:43:22

There are quite a few people who had

a little bit too much

1:43:221:43:27

to drink and done something

that they regretted.

1:43:271:43:30

I don't know about you,

but if I have a little

1:43:301:43:36

bit too much to drink,

inevitably, things go a bit fuzzy

1:43:361:43:38

but I remember the most

embarrassing thing.

1:43:381:43:40

In this case, I have a complete

and total five-hour chunk

1:43:401:43:43

of my memory missing,

which is absolutely terrifying.

1:43:431:43:47

And again, even if it were just

alcohol, given the CCTV footage

1:43:471:43:50

of me unable to stand,

my arms are wrapped around him,

1:43:501:43:56

which you can interpret as flirty,

absolutely, but I'm also using him

1:43:561:43:59

to stand up.

1:43:591:44:00

There is no way I could have given

consent in a state like that,

1:44:001:44:03

even if it were just alcohol.

1:44:031:44:05

What ultimately do you want?

1:44:051:44:07

That's a big question.

1:44:071:44:11

I want a couple of things.

1:44:111:44:16

The first thing is I want rape to be

a prosecutable offence in the UK.

1:44:161:44:20

Right now, statistics show it's not.

1:44:201:44:21

Under 15% of rapes in

the UK are recorded.

1:44:211:44:24

Of that 15%, conviction

rates are abysmal.

1:44:241:44:25

They're in single digits.

1:44:251:44:27

People give up at some point

when speaking to the police.

1:44:271:44:30

The police do not pass all cases

to the CPS and the CPS does not

1:44:301:44:33

take all cases forward.

1:44:331:44:35

I recognise that their mandate

is to take forward cases

1:44:351:44:37

that they feel 100% that they could

win and they say that is part

1:44:371:44:41

of the public interest.

1:44:411:44:44

I strongly believe that if they had

redone the toxicology report

1:44:441:44:47

with the proper timeline,

that my case would be pretty much

1:44:471:44:50

100% winnable because you'd have

clear proof I couldn't consent.

1:44:501:44:54

No matter how many times

I have reminded them

1:44:541:44:57

that they still haven't redone

the numbers on the toxicology

1:44:571:44:59

report, they haven't done it,

and that, for me, is my strongest

1:44:591:45:02

bit of evidence.

1:45:021:45:04

In addition to that,

there is the CCTV of me falling over

1:45:041:45:06

and the fact he wasn't drinking.

1:45:061:45:09

What I want most is my

rapist to go to jail.

1:45:091:45:14

I'm not going to

pretend anything else.

1:45:141:45:16

The thing I want after that is for

other women in my situation who have

1:45:161:45:20

been let down to be able to have

justice against their

1:45:201:45:23

rapists and, for them,

1:45:231:45:24

to be able to go forward

and put their rapists in jail.

1:45:241:45:28

That is why with our

Go Fund Me page, we are

1:45:281:45:31

looking to raise £100,000.

1:45:311:45:36

That, as far as I'm aware,

is about as much as it will take

1:45:361:45:39

for two cases to go

forward from the start.

1:45:391:45:44

Emily Hunt in her bid to raise

£100,000 in order to fund a private

1:45:441:45:49

rape prosecution.

1:45:491:45:52

If you're black - you're eight times

more likely to be stopped

1:45:531:45:56

and searched by a police officer

than any other ethnic group.

1:45:561:45:58

Although it has been used around

300,000 times across England

1:45:581:46:01

and Wales in the past year,

only 17% of those lead

1:46:011:46:03

to an actual arrest.

1:46:031:46:04

For innocent people being stopped

in the street can be

1:46:041:46:07

scary and intimidating

and for some, it can lead

1:46:071:46:09

to distrust of police officers.

1:46:091:46:17

The country's biggest

force, the Met,

1:46:171:46:20

say its vital to reduce knife crime

- 21 teenagers have been killed

1:46:201:46:23

in london alone so far this year -

15 were stabbed to death.

1:46:231:46:26

Our reporter Noel Phillips

was stopped and searched twice

1:46:261:46:28

within a few months.

1:46:281:46:30

After he complained about his

treatment the Met apologised.

1:46:301:46:35

We bought you his full film earlier,

here's a short extract.

1:46:351:46:42

RADIO:

The person with a knife

punched the informant in the face.

1:46:421:46:45

We're going to a call to a shop

in the south of the borough.

1:46:451:46:49

We're on patrol with

the Metropolitan Police's Rapid

1:46:491:46:52

Response Unit in North London.

1:46:521:46:53

One of those has pulled a knife out,

a flick knife out, and threatened

1:46:531:46:56

a shopkeeper with it.

1:46:561:46:57

So, we've got a description.

1:46:571:46:59

It's a white, 13 to 14-year-old,

grey tracksuit with blonde hair.

1:46:591:47:03

We've been given rare access

into one of their most

1:47:031:47:05

controversial powers,

stop and search.

1:47:051:47:10

I'm sure the officer has explained

you are being searched

1:47:101:47:13

because there has been an incident

when someone produced a flick

1:47:131:47:15

knife on a shop keeper.

1:47:151:47:17

What's your first name?

1:47:171:47:18

Officers stopped a 16-year-old,

who matches the description.

1:47:181:47:19

Sorry for the inconvenience.

We'll only keep you a minute.

1:47:191:47:22

We'll just get this sorted.

1:47:221:47:23

But, his 15-year-old friend

who is black, is being arrested.

1:47:231:47:26

Space for one juvenile male, please.

1:47:261:47:29

So, basically, we're

using our powers for weapons.

1:47:291:47:33

A flick knife, obviously,

being a weapon.

1:47:331:47:37

In this case, we found drugs on this

boy, so he's been arrested.

1:47:371:47:40

The other one has nothing

illegal, so we're just

1:47:401:47:43

going to get his details.

1:47:431:47:44

He'll be on his way.

1:47:441:47:45

Mate, stop walking away.

Stop walking away.

1:47:451:47:47

Overall figures to stop and search

shows an overall reduction

1:47:471:47:49

in the powers being used.

1:47:491:47:51

But, according to Home Office

figures, if you're black,

1:47:511:47:53

you're eight times more likely to be

stop and searched compared

1:47:531:47:55

to any other ethnic group.

1:47:551:48:01

I also know what it feels like to be

stopped and searched.

1:48:011:48:05

In fact, the most recent is at this

very spot where I'm standing.

1:48:051:48:09

Now I remember four plainclothes

officers approaching me.

1:48:091:48:13

It was all so sudden,

all so unexpected.

1:48:131:48:15

They asked me what I was doing.

1:48:151:48:18

I pointed in that direction and said

I was on my way home.

1:48:181:48:21

And yet I was still searched.

1:48:211:48:24

Your behaviour...

1:48:241:48:26

How you was on your bike.

1:48:261:48:28

Your behaviour when you

were on this bike...

1:48:281:48:30

Sorry, I'm allowed to film.

1:48:301:48:33

At that point, the officer

took my phone and stopped me

1:48:331:48:37

recording what was happening

and I was detained and searched.

1:48:371:48:47

We're going to put some gloves on.

1:48:491:48:51

We're not looking to

blanket search black men.

1:48:511:48:53

We're looking to search gang

members, people that we get

1:48:531:48:55

calls for service that

describe the suspect.

1:48:551:48:57

If we see someone who matches that

description, they're

1:48:571:48:59

going to be searched.

1:48:591:49:00

Noel Phillips reporting there.

1:49:001:49:01

You can see the full version of that

report at bbc.co.uk/victoria.

1:49:011:49:04

Let's talk to Janet Hills,

Chair of the Metropolitan Black

1:49:041:49:06

Police Association who spent

24 years in the Met.

1:49:061:49:16

Gwenton Sloley who now

trains police officers

1:49:241:49:26

at the Met and other forces on how

to use their stop and search powers.

1:49:261:49:29

He is also the Director

of the charity Crying Sons.

1:49:291:49:32

And Lillian and Paul Barnes whose

son Quamari was the second teenager

1:49:321:49:35

to be stabbed to death

in London this year.

1:49:351:49:37

He died on 23rd January.

1:49:371:49:38

Quamari was stabbed to death

outside his school in Kensal Green.

1:49:381:49:41

His murderer was sentenced last week

for a minimum of 14 years.

1:49:411:49:43

Paul says if stop and search can

stop the killings then it

1:49:431:49:46

has his full support.

1:49:461:49:47

We are going to talk to a viewer who

got in touch. He is in high Wycombe.

1:49:471:49:51

Thank you for talking to us. I want

to ask all of you this one simple

1:49:511:49:55

question. Have you been stopped and

searched?

Yes.

How many times?

1:49:551:50:03

Recently, not as much as

historically.

Over your lifetime?

1:50:031:50:07

About 20 times.

Janet, have you been

stopped and searched?

Yes. I have it

1:50:071:50:13

has been in my car, but it amounts

to the same thing.

Were you a police

1:50:131:50:17

officer at the time?

Yes, I was.

Wow. Paul have you been stopped and

1:50:171:50:22

searched

Uncountable times.

Not

recently. Not in the last seven

1:50:221:50:31

years since I moved out of Croydon,

when I grew up in cou dorntion

1:50:311:50:36

countless times.

You will know that

the commissioner of the Met says

1:50:361:50:39

there is a link between stop and

search and reducing knife crime. Do

1:50:391:50:44

you Lillian and Paul, do you think

she is right?

A little bit. A little

1:50:441:50:51

bit. Personally, I think, yeah.

Stop

and search has your support?

Yeah,

1:50:511:51:00

fully. If it's going to stop all the

killings out there because it has

1:51:001:51:06

been ridiculous this year. So if

it's going to stop the killings it

1:51:061:51:10

has got my full support 101%.

What

about you, Lillian?

I'm concerned

1:51:101:51:14

about how stop and search is carried

out. So if they are going to use

1:51:141:51:21

this as a weapon towards fighting

knife crime, then it has to be done

1:51:211:51:26

reasonably and we do have to have

transparency and we do need to know

1:51:261:51:35

that the information, the statistics

on stops that they are carrying out:

1:51:351:51:38

In order to be able to hold anybody

accountable in the end?

Yes.

You

1:51:381:51:43

train Met officers. You are a former

gang member yourself. You turned

1:51:431:51:47

Home Office advisor. When can an

officer stop somebody?

It's not

1:51:471:51:52

when, it is how you do it. I myself

support stop and search, but it's

1:51:521:51:57

about how you make that person feel

when you're stopping and searching

1:51:571:52:00

them.

It is about when as well

because you have to have reasonable

1:52:001:52:04

suspicion as an officer?

Yes,

definitely. That's why we shouldn't

1:52:041:52:09

base our stuff on the intelligence

we get from the Matrix. There is a

1:52:091:52:13

lot of components from the Matrix.

What is that?

The police have a

1:52:131:52:17

database which is called the police

Matrix which tracks gang members,

1:52:171:52:21

but it doesn't track drug dealers

and other people in the community

1:52:211:52:25

that's committing crimes. So if we

are just going to look at one

1:52:251:52:29

component of the Matrix we will

continue to get it wrong. We need to

1:52:291:52:34

have the right intelligence to

target the right people that are

1:52:341:52:37

carrying knives and if we look at

the consequence of these young

1:52:371:52:41

people carrying knifes it has become

part of their uniform. A lot of

1:52:411:52:46

young people feeling pressured into

carrying knives, might welcome a

1:52:461:52:50

stop and search because it will stop

them doing the crime that they don't

1:52:501:52:53

want to do in the first place.

Some

young people might welcome the stop

1:52:531:52:58

and search if they are carrying a

knife because it will take the knife

1:52:581:53:01

from them?

Listen, I carried a

knife, yeah and I didn't want to

1:53:011:53:06

ever use a knife, does that make

sense? It was only when I was in a

1:53:061:53:10

situation that I could have used it

and I didn't use it, I gave up that

1:53:101:53:14

right. Stop and search, I'm not

against, back to how you make the

1:53:141:53:19

young people feel, when I was 13 and

14 and I committed no crime and I

1:53:191:53:23

was getting stopped and searched by

the police, it made me feel I had no

1:53:231:53:27

rights. It goes back to educating.

Tomorrow I have got a youth club and

1:53:271:53:31

I have got a person who works for

the Met coming in to discuss with

1:53:311:53:38

your people they're rights when

getting stopped and searched.

It

1:53:381:53:41

froze at the end. We got the gist of

when you said you were carrying a

1:53:411:53:46

knife. Do you agree with the

Commissioner that there is a link

1:53:461:53:49

between stop and searches, the

number of them and a reduction in

1:53:491:53:52

knife crime?

I believe that stop and

search can be used as an effective

1:53:521:53:58

tool by police officers to try and

combat knife crime. I think that is

1:53:581:54:03

key, but it's part, it should be

part of a package of measures, not

1:54:031:54:09

solely relied upon to reduce knife

crime. There are a lot of reasons

1:54:091:54:15

that will be society wise based,

peer pressures, education, what the

1:54:151:54:21

young man is talking about, which,

you know, needs to be a package of

1:54:211:54:25

measures that everyone is involved

in and multi-agency approach which

1:54:251:54:31

applies to try and reduce the amount

of knife crime there is in London.

1:54:311:54:36

I wonder if I can ask you Lillian

and Paul to explain to our audience,

1:54:361:54:41

most of whom will never have

experienced what you have this year,

1:54:411:54:44

what it is like when you lose a son

who is fatally stabbed outside his

1:54:441:54:49

school?

It's devastating. Everything

changes. Your outlook on life

1:54:491:54:57

changes. What's important changes as

well. For me, it's a daily process.

1:54:571:55:07

It's not something that you can get

over straightaway. It's not

1:55:071:55:13

something that you can even forget.

Every time you wake up, that's the

1:55:131:55:16

first thing that comes to mind.

What

about you, Paul

It's a struggle.

1:55:161:55:21

It's a struggle. Every day, it's a

struggle. You wake up every morning,

1:55:211:55:26

we have pictures of him, you know,

it has been hard. It has been hard.

1:55:261:55:32

A very hard year so far. Very hard.

What would you say to anybody

1:55:321:55:37

watching or listening on social

media later, who carries a knife?

1:55:371:55:43

What would you say to them?

I think

first of all, it's really, it's not

1:55:431:55:48

always straightforward. Someone can

carry a knife, but there is many

1:55:481:55:52

elements that lead them to take that

road in the first place and you

1:55:521:55:58

can't necessarily tell someone

something and they're going to just

1:55:581:56:00

do it, but I think education plays a

big part in that. This week, I went

1:56:001:56:08

to a mayor's summit with all heads

of education and the police as well

1:56:081:56:16

and I was quite astonished to find

out that how the safety of young

1:56:161:56:22

people is dealt with. It's not a

consistent approach throughout all

1:56:221:56:27

the different schools and I just

think that we need to get a hold of

1:56:271:56:34

things and people do need to

consider the well-being of the young

1:56:341:56:38

people and it's not just because

it's something to be ignored because

1:56:381:56:43

it's only affecting a particular

group of people.

Yes. I understand.

1:56:431:56:48

You said it's about how police

officers stop and search. How should

1:56:481:56:52

they be stopping and searching?

It's

a raising awareness of the young

1:56:521:56:56

people. Even if you don't find a

young person with a knife on the

1:56:561:57:00

occasion that you're stopping and

searching them, educate them on why

1:57:001:57:04

you're stopping and searching and

also we need to stop the cuddly

1:57:041:57:08

thing of, oh, don't carry a knife.

You need to explain what it means

1:57:081:57:11

when you carry a knife and you end

up using a knife, the ripple effect

1:57:111:57:15

that it has on the parents, and also

yourself because a lot of people are

1:57:151:57:22

walking around with a nightmare when

you are awake. Even though you might

1:57:221:57:26

have stabbed someone and got away

with it, your conscience will come

1:57:261:57:29

and deal with you in the day time.

We need to remind the young people

1:57:291:57:34

of that and the consequences of

walking around when you have

1:57:341:57:38

committed those horrific crimes.

David, an e-mail, I have to sub it.

1:57:381:57:42

"I have been a police officer for 30

years. I do not know how the police

1:57:421:57:45

would do their job and protect the

public they serve without stop and

1:57:451:57:48

search. I have recovered illegal

firearms, knives, playeded articles

1:57:481:57:52

and loads of thousands of pounds

worth of stolen goods." You are not

1:57:521:57:57

saying Janet Hills we need to stop

stop and search, you are saying what

1:57:571:58:01

briefly?

From a national BPA

prospective, we are saying we

1:58:011:58:05

support the use, the lawful use of

stop and search and again, when

1:58:051:58:10

officers using it, what reassures

people and builds trust is the fact

1:58:101:58:13

that we're asking that the body worn

cameras are worn when those

1:58:131:58:18

engagements happen so it addresses

issues if that's what is being

1:58:181:58:23

alleged.

Thank you, Paul and Janet,

thank you very much for coming on

1:58:231:58:29

the programme. Thank you for your

company. We're back tomorrow at 9am.

1:58:291:58:33

Have

1:58:331:58:33

Victoria Derbyshire talks to a man who lost his son to knife crime about the controversial policy of stop and search.

A woman seeking what is thought to be the UK's first crowdfunded private rape prosecution tells the programme she hopes to lead the way for those 'let down' by the courts.

And we speak to the Pride of Britain Fundraiser of the Year.