09/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


09/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello, it's Thursday,

it's 9 o'clock.

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I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme.

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As Theresa May loses her second

minister in a week, her opponents

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claim her government is in chaos.

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Priti Patel resigned as

International Development Secretary

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last night after all those

unauthorised meetings

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with Israeli politicians.

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The Prime Minister's colleagues say

that Mrs May has it under control.

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Theresa May is in full charge

of this cabinet, and I have no doubt

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at all her appointment today

will reflect the nature of that,

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and we'll be able to get

on with our business.

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As Theresa May works on another

reshuffle of her top team,

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do you think she can withstand

this latest crisis?

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Could virtual reality be used

to treat mental health conditions?

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Tests are under way to see

whether VR can heal our minds

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and help conquer anxieties

like fear of heights.

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After that session I did go out

and put myself into some positions

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where you are sort of facing

heights, and

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I was really really surprised at how

differently I felt about it.

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We will bring you that film at about

9:45am.

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Plus, is the Government's

anti-radicalisation

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programme worked?

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Figures out later will show how many

far right and Islamist extremists

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have been referred to the scheme.

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Hello.

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Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am this morning.

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If you're a Conservative voter,

are you worried about the latest

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crisis to hit the Government

or are you confident Theresa May

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has it under control.

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What is your advice to Theresa May?

What would you suggest to her this

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morning?

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Also this morning, has owning

a pet changed your life?

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A little later we'll be talking

to a group of people

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who say their animals have made

a huge difference to them,

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but we want to hear from you too -

and send us a picture!

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You know I am partial to those!

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Do get in touch on all the stories

we're talking about this morning -

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use the hashtag #VictoriaLive

and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today.

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The Prime Minister will announce her

new International Development

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Secretary today as she tries

to restore stability

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to the Government after the second

resignation from her Cabinet

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in a week.

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Priti Patel stepped down last night

after more questions were raised

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about meetings she held

during a personal trip to Israel.

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Theresa May is facing calls

to replace her with someone

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who backs Brexit to maintain

the delicate political

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balance of the cabinet.

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Our political correspondent

Alex Forsyth reports.

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Arriving in London, Priti Patel

could have guessed her fate.

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She had been summoned back

from Kenya by Number Ten,

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an official trip to Africa cut

short.

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She entered Downing Street

by the back door and left

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having lost her job,

resigning after failing to disclose

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details of unauthorised meetings

with Israeli politicians.

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In her letter to the Prime

Minister, she said.

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"I accept my actions fell below

the high standards that are expected

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of a Secretary of State."

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For the second time in just over

a week, Theresa May must now decide

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how to fill a gap around

the top table.

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Michael Fallon quit as defence

secretary last week over

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his personal conduct.

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This team was carefully chosen

to represent different

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Tory views over Brexit,

and some are keen

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that is maintained.

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There is a divide between people

who want Brexit to mean

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we are basically staying

within the EU.

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They are essentially

the Remainers who are unchanged.

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And they give a veneer of acceptance

but haven't truly accepted.

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There are quite a lot of people

who were quite balanced

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when they made the decision

as to which side to support,

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who are now really rather

enthusiastic about Brexit

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and want to get on with it properly.

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Whatever the Prime Minister's

decision about who should

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now sit in her Cabinet,

she will face intense

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scrutiny over her choice.

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Our political correspondent

Leila Nathoo is in Westminster.

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How bad is this for Theresa May?

On

one hand Theresa May has managed to

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stand some authority on the

situation. There were a couple of

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days when it looked like Priti Patel

was going to walk away from these

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claims with just a reprimand from

Downing Street. It was only after

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these other allegations came to

light that she finally felt she had

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to resign. In one sense Theresa May

is trying to get control of the

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situation. She has the opportunity

now to make joints in the

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replacement of Priti Patel, to try

and steadied the ship -- to make a

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choice in the replacement of Priti

Patel. Her key ally Gavin Williamson

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came into Michael Fallon's role.

There is no doubt this whole episode

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gives ammunition to the opposition,

who are suggesting this looks like a

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government in chaos and the wheels

are coming off this operation. We've

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got two more Cabinet ministers under

pressure. Boris Johnson over

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comments concerning a British

Iranian woman held in Teheran and

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Damian Green who is also under

investigation over his conduct. This

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is a very tricky political territory

for Theresa May and I think

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reshuffles are difficult at the best

of times, let alone when this

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government is so fragile.

If you are

a Conservative voter what is your

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advice to Theresa May? If you vote

for other parties you are welcome to

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give your advice as well.

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Annita McVeigh is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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Police forces in England and Wales

are struggling to meet demand,

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due to a surge in the number

of calls from members of the public.

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A survey by the policing watchdog

says the service is under

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"significant stress"

because of budget cuts,

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although it says forces could help

by making further efficiencies.

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Our home affairs correspondent

Danny Shaw reports.

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If you report a crime this

is where your call is dealt with.

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The control room.

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It is the nerve centre

of police operations.

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There are more than 8 million

999 calls every year,

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with millions of others

on the non-emergency number, 101.

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The inspector of constabulary says

that police are struggling to cope.

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He says that problems

retaining control room staff

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and an overreliance on outdated

technology are to blame.

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Some requests for police

to deal with crimes,

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including criminal damage

and assault, go unanswered.

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In Devon and Cornwall,

many callers hang up

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because they have to wait so long.

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The control rooms are right at the

heart of what our police forces do.

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The focus on getting that

right is really important

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for chief constables,

and we encourage them

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to continue with this.

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The report into police

efficiency says the service

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is under significant stress.

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It says forces will spend 6% less

on policing in the next three years

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and will lose more than 4,000

officers and staff from

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the police workforce.

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That is why many chief constables

say they need extra resources

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to deal with the increased demand.

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Mike Cunningham says it

would be a good thing

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for police to have more money,

but he says the service needs

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to show the benefits

extra funding will bring,

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and he says there is scope

for forces to use their existing

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resources more efficiently.

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The First Minister of Wales,

Carwyn Jones, is to issue

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a statement today amid criticism

of the way he handled

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misconduct allegations

against a Welsh cabinet member,

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who is believed to have

taken his own life.

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The family of Carl Sargeant -

who'd been accused of

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inappropriate touching -

says he was denied natural justice

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because he wasn't given details

of the allegations which led

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to his sacking.

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Our reporter Tomos Morgan

is at the Welsh Assembly

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for us this morning.

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Do you have any idea what we are

expecting to hear from Carwyn Jones?

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Sorry, I'm told we don't have Tomos

at the moment but will bring you

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more on that story later.

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British officials will travel

to Brussels for further

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Brexit talks today.

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It's the first set of negotiations

since EU leaders agreed to begin

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preparing for discussions

about the future

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relationship with Britain.

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The Brexit secretary,

David Davis and the EU's chief

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negotiator Michel Barnier will join

the talks tomorrow, which are likely

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to centre around the UK's financial

obligations and the rights

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of British people living in the EU.

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US President Donald Trump has urged

Chinese leader Xi Jinping to "work

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very hard" on persuading North Korea

to give up its nuclear weapons.

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Discussions on how to deal

with North Korea's threats

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to the region have dominated

the agenda during Mr

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Trump's tour of Asia.

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This morning he warned

that "time is quickly

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running out" to deal

with the North Korean

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nuclear threat.

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The United States is committed to

the complete and permanent

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denuclearisation of North Korea.

China can fix this problem easily

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and quickly, and I am calling on

China and your great president to

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hopefully work on it very hard. I

know one thing about your president,

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if he works on it hard, it will

happen. There's no doubt about it.

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Reports from Hollywood say

Kevin Spacey is to be edited out

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of a new film six weeks

before its release -

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following the recent

allegations of sexual assault.

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Spacey, who plays Jean Paul

Getty in the thriller,

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"All The Money In The World",

will be replaced by

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the Oscar-winning Canadian actor,

Christopher Plummer.

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The release will still go ahead

as planned on December the 22nd.

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House prices are now falling in four

areas of the country,

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according to the latest report

from chartered surveyors.

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The Royal Institution

of Chartered Surveyors has said that

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prices are declining in London,

the South East, East Anglia

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and north-east England.

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Across the country as a whole,

it said prices were flat.

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The survey though appears

to contrast with data

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from the Halifax, which said

earlier this week that house price

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growth had risen to 4.5%

in the year to October.

0:10:120:10:17

Scientists say skin injuries -

such as cuts - heal quicker

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if they happen during the day.

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Researchers found that people

who suffered burns after 8pm took

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an average of 28 days to get better

- compared with 17 for

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the daytime injuries.

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They think the human body

clock is reason why.

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A self-driving shuttle bus

in Las Vegas was involved in a crash

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on its first day of service.

0:10:420:10:44

The vehicle - which was carrying

several passengers -

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collided with a lorry driving

at slow speed.

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Nobody was injured in the incident

which officials say was the fault

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of the lorry driver.

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The shuttle is the first of its kind

to be used on public roads

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in the United States.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

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use the hashtag #VictoriaLive

and if you text, you will be charged

0:11:080:11:11

at the standard network rate.

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Let's get some sport.

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The Ashes are at stake for England's

women. They've been out in Australia

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for a couple of weeks already.

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They trail 4-2 after the one-dayers.

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There are four points

for the winners of the one-day Test.

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England cannot afford to lose,

because a tied series would be

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the best that England

could then hope for.

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Australia would retain those

precious Ashes.

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Our sports correspondent

Andy Swiss is in Sydney.

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Good evening and E. Has it been a

good day for England's women so far?

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Yes, as you can see the floodlights

are on here. Instead of the tea

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break we've just had the dinner

break. England with a bit of

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rebuilding, they are currently

188-4. England won the toss, they

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chose to bat. It was Australia's

bowlers but got off to the best art.

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England losing the early wickets of

Lauren Winfield, outfit just four.

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Australia on top in the early

stages. Then a century partnership

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between Tammy Beaumont and Heather

Knight. Tammy Beaumont particularly

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impressive. You can see why she was

England's player of the tournament

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at the World Cup in the summer.

Beaumont was eventually out for 70.

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Heather Knight followed the 62.

They've also lost Natalie Sciver 18.

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England with a bit of work to do.

This is a much with so much riding

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on it. If Australia wind, they will

retain the Ashes. So England need to

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post a big first innings total. They

are currently 188-4.

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A quick update on the England men -

their Ashes Series starts

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at the end of the month.

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They are in Adelaide, on the second

day of a four-day tour match.

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Jake Ball went over on his ankle

and had to leave the field

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and is a doubt for

the rest of the match.

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Australia are 152-6,

141 runs behind England.

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We've heard from Eni Aluko for the

first time since she gave that

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devastating testimony about racism

within the England camp.

This was an

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interview she gave to the BBC.

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The FA came out of the DCMS

committee hearing very badly.

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They were looking at

the circimstances around the England

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coach Mark Sampson's dismissal

and how they handled it.

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He lost his job for his conduct

at a previous job, but he was found

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to have used racially

disciminatory language

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towards Eniola Aluko and another

player.

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Aluko was essentially ostracised

and she feels very let

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down by some of her

team-mates at the time.

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It's been very divisive

and very adversarial,

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and I think the players

have been dragged into that.

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But the players have their own mind

and they should be able to say,

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actually, let me step back from this

and see how this may benefit.

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If I have a problem,

if they have a problem,

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they have a process

that is going to protect them.

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Aluko was an unused substitute last

night for Chelsea as they beat

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Rosengard in the first leg

of their last 16

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Champions League tie.

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It is the second consecutive

Thursday that the Prime Minister

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wakes up needing to replace one of

her Cabinet ministers.

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This comes, as we've been hearing,

after a series of unauthorised

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meetings with Israeli

officials and politicians.

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In a letter to Theresa May issued

after they met last night she says:

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So it's left Theresa May's

government under fire

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from critics and commentators.

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And this is how the front pages

view her predicament this morning -

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obviously with considerable

speculation about what happens next.

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In a moment we'll be

discussing where the Prime

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Minister goes from here.

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But first, our political expert

James Landale explains how exactly

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it went so badly wrong for Priti

Patel.

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This story is all about a family

holiday to Israel by Priti Patel,

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the International Development

Secretary, that went terribly wrong.

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A holiday where the lines

between her public life

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and her private life became blurred.

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The correct way of doing business

within government didn't happen,

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and had extraordinary consequences

for the British government.

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So what happened was this.

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In August, Priti Patel went

on holiday to Israel.

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It was a 12, 13-day holiday.

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For around two days, Priti Patel

decided to do a bit of work.

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And she had a very busy

schedule packed in for her.

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No fewer than 12 separate

engagements over those two days.

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Now, the International Development

Secretary, Priti Patel,

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has apologised after admitting

meeting the Israeli prime

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minister, Binyamin Netanyahu.

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It is quite extraordinary that

Priti Patel, a cabinet minister,

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met Binyamin Netanyahu,

the head of the government

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for another country, secretly,

without telling anybody.

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Relationships between governments

are incredibly fine-tuned,

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and meetings are calibrated

and they're prepared

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for, and ministers know

what messages they want to get

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across and what they're

going to receive.

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If you have a sort of rogue elephant

storming through this process

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having secret meetings,

then the potential for errors,

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for mixed messages, for the Israeli

government doing one thing

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and the British government doing

another thing,

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or even the Israeli government

and another Government minister

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deciding to do one thing

to try and influence

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the British Government.

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I mean, this is a really,

really complicated place to be,

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and it's why, I think,

that there were so many eyes raised

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when it emerged that Priti Patel had

met Binyamin Netanyahu.

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Let's talk to

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Henry Mance, political correspondent

for the Financial Times,

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and Ian Birrell, a freelance

journalist and former speech

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writer for David Cameron.

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We may also be joined by Jo-Anne

Nadler, who is stuck in traffic at

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the moment. The Times reporting that

an EU leader is reporting the

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British Government will collapse by

the end of the year. What do you

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think of that story?

It sounds

reasonable. From the other side of

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the Channel, you're thinking, what

is going on? One candidate member

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gone, being looked into for sexual

harassment, another one gone here.

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This does not look like a government

that will be around for long. Other

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symptoms have the former Chancellor

George Osborne saying in June it

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would fall apart within a week.

Colin Theresa May a dead woman

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walking, and she is still there.

--

he was

calling Theresa May. How

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embarrassing is this for Theresa

May?

Very embarrassing. She looks

0:18:580:19:05

weak. We have a Foreign Minister who

may have inadvertently led to a

0:19:050:19:10

longer jail sentence for a British

citizen in Iran as well, and he is

0:19:100:19:16

still in his job despite all the

special Ops he has been engaged on

0:19:160:19:19

to further his own ambitions. So we

have a very weak Prime Minister,

0:19:190:19:24

still very divided country and

party, and I think it is very

0:19:240:19:27

justified for European leaders to

wonder whether this is a government

0:19:270:19:31

they can do business with,

particularly when it is hard to see

0:19:310:19:34

how they can get any form of Brexit

through.

It would be simple if

0:19:340:19:37

Britain offered more for the divorce

bill, then things would start

0:19:370:19:44

moving?

Yes, but she has a hard line

who may not accept that. She has

0:19:440:19:49

this terrible balancing act and she

does not have the authority or power

0:19:490:19:51

to get it through, and I think

European leaders are just looking at

0:19:510:19:55

this mess and saying, can they get

anything through? It is also

0:19:550:19:59

significant, we have had some German

economists advising the Government

0:19:590:20:07

that they should give an

extension...

Advising the German

0:20:070:20:12

Government? Joest, to get an

extension.

We are coming up for a

0:20:120:20:17

year after triggering Article 50 and

we still don't know the shape of the

0:20:170:20:20

arrangement.

The Germans would not

want an extension to a deadline?

0:20:200:20:24

There is a hard date, perhaps marks

the 30th 2019, then she has done her

0:20:240:20:29

job. She has fulfilled the role, and

I think she is actually in a

0:20:290:20:34

stronger position than perhaps she

even realises. They have decided

0:20:340:20:36

they are not going to try to get rid

of her, not going to try a coup,

0:20:360:20:41

they don't have enough rebellious

MPs in the Conservative Party.

She

0:20:410:20:45

is their best shot at making breaks

that happened the way they want?

0:20:450:20:49

Yes, so why doesn't she sure that

authority and sack people, rather

0:20:490:20:52

than letting them resign. And it is

clear policies on the things she

0:20:520:20:57

cares about, but instead we have

this bit by bit approach, and she is

0:20:570:21:01

making it all seem rather laborious.

I think if you are a Brexiter, you

0:21:010:21:05

would say, yes, she is delivering

the date, but making it look like

0:21:050:21:09

really hard work, not very tasty

gruel that the country has to eat

0:21:090:21:13

up.

Ian, it is such a the bridal

time for the Conservative Party. Are

0:21:130:21:20

there parallels with previous

administrations for you, not?

The

0:21:200:21:23

one that is being drawn is with the

John Major..., government that had

0:21:230:21:28

economic issues coming out of the

European monetary system, then was

0:21:280:21:31

beset by problems with a declining

majority and a series of scandals

0:21:310:21:36

after John Major's Back To Basics

speech. That was the comparison and

0:21:360:21:41

I wrote last week in the Guardian

that it is actual and much worse,

0:21:410:21:44

and don't be fooled by thinking it

is only that bad, it is much worse.

0:21:440:21:48

Not only other sex scandals more

profound in what is happening the

0:21:480:21:52

for in that it is about societal

problems and how women are treated,

0:21:520:21:56

but it goes much deeper in terms of

economic issues, the chaos in the

0:21:560:21:59

Government, and you know John Major

at least began with a majority, but

0:21:590:22:05

Theresa May has blundered away her

majority. Overshadowing everything

0:22:050:22:08

is one big issue, Brexit, and still

we have not begun to resolve how we

0:22:080:22:12

will get out of Europe if indeed

that is to happen.

What sort of

0:22:120:22:16

trouble if any good Priti Patel make

for Theresa May on the backbenches?

0:22:160:22:20

She spoke in her resignation letter

about speaking up for a sovereign

0:22:200:22:27

independent Britain.

Yes, you

mentioned the divorce bill, billions

0:22:270:22:30

of pounds of taxpayers' money, and

she's a big advocate for taxpayer

0:22:300:22:36

money on the aid budget, so she

could come around and say, I don't

0:22:360:22:39

quite agree with this, and she has

particular views on foreign policy.

0:22:390:22:42

She could just be a nuisance.

This

was the woman commissioning work on

0:22:420:22:47

her own department to see if money

could be given to the Israeli army,

0:22:470:22:55

from British taxpayers?

Yes, it was

a bit of a paradox that, a bit

0:22:550:22:58

strange. I think she could be very

awkward and with a working majority

0:22:580:23:02

of just 12 it is very problematic.

But remember the polls are still

0:23:020:23:07

neck and neck. The Conservatives are

not in complete freefall like they

0:23:070:23:10

were in the 1990s. If Theresa May

was overthrown and the new leader of

0:23:100:23:15

the Conservative Party decided to

have an election, there is every

0:23:150:23:18

possibility the Conservatives might

actually wind a majority.

I saw

0:23:180:23:22

someone the other day saying if you

want to know how bad it is for the

0:23:220:23:27

Tories, just think, if Ed Miliband

was the leader of the Labour Party

0:23:270:23:31

the Tories would be 15 points

behind. And everything is about

0:23:310:23:35

Jeremy Corbyn being leader of the

Labour Party and then being

0:23:350:23:38

terrified about handing power to our

left Government, bolstering their

0:23:380:23:44

rags of power. Priti Patel, we

should think, she was overpromoted,

0:23:440:23:48

a very poor aid minister, and she

does not have a huge amount of

0:23:480:23:51

allies. Unlike some of the Keith

Brexiteers who are very key figures

0:23:510:23:55

and respected on the backbenches --

unlike many of the key Brexiteers.

0:23:550:24:03

And asking viewers about Theresa May

this morning, how does she get a

0:24:030:24:06

grip?

The budget in a couple of

weeks would be a good place to start

0:24:060:24:10

but the problem is there is not a

lot of money around.

A lot of

0:24:100:24:14

unravelling after a budget usually?

You could see the last three have

0:24:140:24:17

gone pretty poorly. When Philip

Hammond tried to put up taxes on

0:24:170:24:29

some workers, there was an outcry. I

think they have to respond to the

0:24:290:24:33

election, saying that we feel the

NHS is Greece, housing is not there

0:24:330:24:36

for young people, too expensive for

everyone, and those kinds of things

0:24:360:24:40

about aspirations -- we feel that

the NHS is squeezed.

Again I think

0:24:400:24:45

they have to show they are about

something beyond meandering through

0:24:450:24:48

Brexit. They have to show they have

some ambition, things to say to the

0:24:480:24:53

public on what they are concerned

about, whether it is social care,

0:24:530:24:57

and embarrassing thing to bring up

for Theresa May, whether it is

0:24:570:25:00

housing, the health service, or

perhaps they should look beyond

0:25:000:25:03

that, to issues like drug reform

something, where they can reach out

0:25:030:25:07

to voters who are not necessarily

engaged with politics. Let's not

0:25:070:25:12

forget the Priti Patel resignation

probably does not impact people's

0:25:120:25:15

lives a jot, but there are issues

where they can reach out and grab

0:25:150:25:19

people, but as of yet all we see is

a government blundering from chaos

0:25:190:25:23

to disaster the chaos the disaster,

and that is not a good luck.

Thank

0:25:230:25:29

you, Ian Birrell, and Henry Mance,

thank you for coming on the

0:25:290:25:40

programme. We can talk to Jo-Anne

Nadler later when she makes it in.

0:25:400:25:47

Some police control rooms in England

and Wales are struggling to cope

0:25:470:25:50

with the number of calls theyr'e

getting - according

0:25:500:25:52

to the official police watchdog.

0:25:520:25:53

The report was carried out

by Her Majesty's Inspector

0:25:530:25:55

of Constabulary Mike Cunningham.

0:25:550:25:56

We're more calls to 999 and 101

which means some calls don't get a

0:25:560:26:00

response. That is not good. We are

looking at how police use the money

0:26:000:26:05

and staff that they have, how well

they understand the demand for their

0:26:050:26:08

services, and we found that overall

police forces are performing pretty

0:26:080:26:15

well in terms of efficiency, but in

this area of control rooms where the

0:26:150:26:19

calls coming, we found in some cases

forces are struggling. And that is

0:26:190:26:24

two areas, firstly the sheer volume

of calls coming in and how they

0:26:240:26:29

prioritise those, and secondly

around staff who work in those

0:26:290:26:34

control rooms, retaining them,

giving them the skills they need to

0:26:340:26:37

make an assessment of the calls, so

a couple of issues are going on here

0:26:370:26:42

that we are urging constables to

have a closer look at. White

0:26:420:26:45

the outcome of that, what they're

complaining about, it often goes

0:26:520:26:55

unresolved. That is not good?

Issues

remain unresolved is clearly is not

0:26:550:27:00

good and we have seen examples of

where that happens. We absolutely

0:27:000:27:06

accept police forces have to

prioritise, they have to see which

0:27:060:27:09

calls are important, which calls

need a response, which ones don't.

0:27:090:27:14

And, encouragingly, police forces

now are doing that, not based on the

0:27:140:27:17

type of crime reported, but on the

needs of the person who is calling,

0:27:170:27:22

so if my shed was broken in two in

the middle of the night, I'm not a

0:27:220:27:28

vulnerable person and might not

expect the police to attend. If my

0:27:280:27:32

neighbour who is elderly and lives

on their own might have their shed

0:27:320:27:35

broken in the middle of the night,

it might terrify them, so they might

0:27:350:27:38

expect reasonably for the police to

attend and give them that

0:27:380:27:41

reassurance, so there is much more

sophisticated prioritising going on

0:27:410:27:45

based on the needs of the person

making the call.

Final thought, how

0:27:450:27:48

much stress our police forces under,

and particularly over the next few

0:27:480:27:54

years in terms of budget

constraints?

Yes, we have said in

0:27:540:27:58

this report police forces are under

significant stress, and two things

0:27:580:28:02

fall out of that. Firstly, there is

clearly less money around now than

0:28:020:28:09

there was, and budgets have been

affected, but secondly we are urging

0:28:090:28:14

Chief constables to think very

differently about how they can

0:28:140:28:17

provide services in the future, how

they provide services to people who

0:28:170:28:21

are vulnerable, who need the police.

A lot of people do business now

0:28:210:28:26

online. How do the police forces

think about that in terms of how

0:28:260:28:32

people communicate with them. Lots

of things are changing in policing,

0:28:320:28:36

and police forces need to really

embrace that change and step up.

OK,

0:28:360:28:42

thank you very much, thank you, Mike

cunning ham. -- Cunningham.

0:28:420:29:02

Some tweets coming and about

people's pets. This one, Patch, kept

0:29:070:29:19

happy when she was at her worst. And

this is the most delicious dog. And

0:29:190:29:25

Linda says Beazer two most gorgeous

dogs, pixie is built Westie and your

0:29:250:29:31

Kate Cross. They are our world --

pixie is a Westie and Yorkie cross.

0:29:310:30:01

Still to come:

0:30:060:30:07

Prevent is the Government's

anti-radicalisation scheme.

0:30:070:30:08

But is it working?

0:30:080:30:09

We'll be asking people who work

on the programme and a former

0:30:090:30:12

far right extremist.

0:30:120:30:13

And we have a special report on how

virtual reality can help people

0:30:130:30:16

tackle a range of phobias,

as well as treating other

0:30:160:30:19

mental health conditions.

0:30:190:30:20

Time for the latest

news - here's Annita.

0:30:200:30:23

And

0:30:230:30:23

Theresa May is under pressure

to restore stability

0:30:230:30:25

to the Government after the second

resignation from her

0:30:250:30:27

Cabinet in a week.

0:30:270:30:28

The International Development

Secretary, Priti Patel,

0:30:280:30:30

stepped down last night after more

questions were raised

0:30:300:30:32

about her unauthorised meetings

with Israeli politicians.

0:30:320:30:34

Ms Patel was a prominent Brexit

supporter, and the Prime Minister

0:30:340:30:36

is facing calls to replace her

with someone who also

0:30:360:30:39

backs leaving the EU.

0:30:390:30:40

Police forces in England and Wales

are struggling to meet demand,

0:30:400:30:42

due to a surge in the number

of calls from members of the public.

0:30:420:30:46

A survey by the policing watchdog

says the service is under

0:30:460:30:48

"significant stress"

because of budget cuts,

0:30:480:30:50

although it says forces could help

by making further efficiencies.

0:30:500:30:54

The First Minister of Wales,

Carwyn Jones, is to issue

0:30:540:30:57

a statement today amid criticism

of the way he handled

0:30:570:30:59

misconduct allegations

against a Welsh cabinet member,

0:30:590:31:01

who is believed to have

taken his own life.

0:31:010:31:07

The family of Carl Sargeant -

who'd been accused of

0:31:070:31:09

inappropriate touching -

says he was denied natural justice

0:31:090:31:11

because he wasn't given details

of the allegations which led

0:31:110:31:14

to his sacking.

0:31:140:31:16

US President Donald Trump has urged

Chinese leader Xi Jinping to "work

0:31:160:31:19

very hard" on persuading North Korea

to give up its nuclear weapons.

0:31:190:31:25

Discussions on how to deal

with North Korea's threats

0:31:250:31:27

to the region have dominated

the agenda during Mr

0:31:270:31:29

Trump's tour of Asia.

0:31:290:31:32

This morning he warned

that "time is quickly

0:31:320:31:34

running out" to deal

with the North Korean

0:31:340:31:36

nuclear threat.

0:31:360:31:39

Reports from Hollywood say

Kevin Spacey is to be edited out

0:31:390:31:42

of a new film six weeks

before its release -

0:31:420:31:44

following the recent

allegations of sexual assault.

0:31:440:31:46

Spacey, who plays Jean Paul

Getty in the thriller,

0:31:460:31:49

"All The Money In The World",

will be replaced by

0:31:490:31:51

the Oscar-winning Canadian actor,

Christopher Plummer.

0:31:510:31:55

The release will still go ahead

as planned on December 22nd.

0:31:550:32:00

Scientists say skin injuries -

such as cuts - heal quicker

0:32:000:32:03

if they happen during the day.

0:32:030:32:07

Researchers found that people

who suffered burns after 8pm took

0:32:070:32:09

an average of 28 days to get better

- compared with 17 for

0:32:090:32:12

the daytime injuries.

0:32:120:32:13

They think the human body

clock is reason why.

0:32:130:32:19

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

0:32:190:32:23

Here's some sport now.

0:32:230:32:25

These are our headlines

this morning.

0:32:250:32:26

England Women are playing

the one-off test against Australia

0:32:260:32:29

in their Ashes Series.

0:32:290:32:31

They won the toss in

Sydney and chose to bat.

0:32:310:32:33

Heather Knight and Tammy Beaumont

scored half centuries.

0:32:330:32:40

England are 206-4.

0:32:400:32:41

Eni Aluko says she is disappointed

by the lack of support she has had

0:32:410:32:45

from England teamates.

0:32:450:32:46

The FA has apologised

to her after an inquiry found

0:32:460:32:48

that the former coach Mark sampson

used racially dicriminatory

0:32:480:32:50

language towards her.

0:32:500:32:55

Aluko was an unused substitute last

night, as Chelsea beat Rosengard 3-0

0:32:550:32:57

in the Champions' League.

0:32:570:32:59

Fran Kirkby scored the pick

of their goals in the first leg

0:32:590:33:02

of their last 16 tie.

0:33:020:33:05

And Northern Ireland are preparing

for the first leg of their World Cup

0:33:050:33:08

play-off against Switzerland.

0:33:080:33:12

They play at Winsdor Park

tonight before the second

0:33:120:33:14

leg in Basel on Sunday.

0:33:140:33:15

That's all your sport.

0:33:150:33:19

We'll learn more this morning -

very shortly - about how many

0:33:190:33:22

people are being referred

to the government's anti

0:33:220:33:24

radicalisation programme - Prevent.

0:33:240:33:30

I've just got the figures right now,

and it is telling me that thousands

0:33:300:33:37

of children and teenagers have been

flagged up to the government to's

0:33:370:33:42

anti-radicalisation programme. These

are official figures just in from

0:33:420:33:46

the Home Office. The first detailed

figures of Prevent revealed that

0:33:460:33:54

2127 of those referred in 2015-16

were under 15, including more than

0:33:540:34:01

500 girls. Another 2000 were aged

between 15-20. The first detailed

0:34:010:34:12

Home Office analysis of Prevent

revealed 2000 of those referred in

0:34:120:34:18

2015-16 were under 15, including 500

girls.

0:34:180:34:24

The scheme is part of

the counter-terror strategy

0:34:240:34:26

created by the Labour government

in 2003 to support those at risk

0:34:260:34:29

of joining extremist

groups including far-right

0:34:290:34:30

and radical islamist groups.

0:34:300:34:31

It tries to strengthen

relationships between the police

0:34:310:34:33

and other organisations,

and requires senior

0:34:330:34:34

community figures -

from faith leaders to teachers

0:34:340:34:36

to doctors - to report

any suspicions.

0:34:360:34:40

Those in favour say it helps

people who might be drawn

0:34:400:34:43

into that radicalised world -

but critics claim it creates

0:34:430:34:45

distrust which can leave

those who are at risk,

0:34:450:34:47

even more isolated.

0:34:470:34:52

Let's now speak to two people

who work at the more extreme end

0:34:520:34:55

of the Prevent strategy -

known as Channel.

0:34:550:34:58

Nigel Bromage is a former far right

extremist, and Rashad Ali

0:34:580:35:00

is a counter-extremism specialist.

0:35:000:35:04

Both provide support

to individuals who are seriously

0:35:040:35:08

at risk of radicalisation.

0:35:080:35:18

Just over 2000 of those referred to

Prevent were under the age of 15

0:35:180:35:22

including more than 500 girls in

2015-16.

Those other referrals, they

0:35:220:35:28

are considered to be a concern by

front line staff. The number of

0:35:280:35:32

people who go on to an engaged

Channel intervention is probably

0:35:320:35:37

around a quarter of that.

What do

you think of that number of

0:35:370:35:41

referrals?

I'm not sure to what

extent is that picking up all the

0:35:410:35:45

issues we are dealing with. We are

talking about individuals who are

0:35:450:35:50

expressing an interest towards

extremist ideologies which have a

0:35:500:35:53

tendency towards violence. Those on

the far right and Islamist side. And

0:35:530:35:57

to some extent what you are seeing

is some who have concerns, which the

0:35:570:36:03

majority of those concerns are laid

at the initial stage by saying there

0:36:030:36:06

is nothing here to be concerned

about, and any small number of

0:36:060:36:10

people who think when you break it

down its not a large problem. But it

0:36:100:36:17

is significant enough to understand

why it's necessary to have some type

0:36:170:36:20

of engagement for them.

Thank you

for the context because it is

0:36:200:36:24

important. How do you react the

figures?

For me it's about the more

0:36:240:36:29

people that are reported, the more

people we can engage with.

You see

0:36:290:36:34

these figures as a good thing, the

fact that so many under 15 is being

0:36:340:36:39

referred?

Obviously I'd like it to

be a lot less than that but for me

0:36:390:36:43

if there are people who need

support, then I would rather be

0:36:430:36:46

aware of them so we can get involved

and try and support these people.

0:36:460:36:50

You spent nearly 20 years as a far

right extremist, including joining

0:36:500:36:58

Combat 18 who are openly racist and

pro-Nazi. You groomed to join such

0:36:580:37:03

groups?

Very much so. I joined the

far right because I was anti-IRA and

0:37:030:37:10

anti-terrorist. It wasn't because I

was racist. I had black and Asian

0:37:100:37:15

friends, I used to listen to reggae

music.

It evolved from there?

It

0:37:150:37:23

evolved from there. I was groomed

through a slow process where they

0:37:230:37:26

listened to my home concerns, my

home issues...

Would you have

0:37:260:37:32

described yourself as a vulnerable

teenager?

Yes, at the time my mother

0:37:320:37:37

was dying of cancer. The far right

moved in, they took at a hospital,

0:37:370:37:41

they bought the shopping when we

needed it, it was a very gradual

0:37:410:37:44

process. They are very good at what

they do and we've got to try and

0:37:440:37:49

counter that.

Is it fair to say the

threat of radicalisation in this

0:37:490:37:54

country is as much about far right

extremism as Islamist extremism?

I

0:37:540:38:00

wouldn't say it's as much but it is

a growing problem. As more people

0:38:000:38:04

get angry about various issues...

Like what? What would attract you to

0:38:040:38:09

Combat 18 now?

People who have been

upset about things like the

0:38:090:38:14

Manchester bomb attack. The far

right wasted no time, they tried to

0:38:140:38:19

manipulate that. Thankfully the

people of Manchester sent them

0:38:190:38:22

packing. There was no room for

extremism at that time. But the far

0:38:220:38:26

right try and manipulate issues and

concerns that people have.

Your

0:38:260:38:33

official title is a Channel

intervention provider, what does

0:38:330:38:36

that mean in practical terms? Give

us an insight into how you engage

0:38:360:38:42

with radicalised individuals and

tried to the radical them.

There are

0:38:420:38:46

a number of people who are

expressing understandable sentiments

0:38:460:38:52

which is anger towards what is

happening in the world they see

0:38:520:38:55

around them. Some of them have

personal, negative experiences. Some

0:38:550:38:59

of them may well have a world view

which tells there is a global war

0:38:590:39:06

against Muslims and therefore they

are fighting at the edge of that

0:39:060:39:10

war. Many of these young people or

slightly older people will be taken

0:39:100:39:16

on board by extremist groups. Some

of them will try to go and join

0:39:160:39:20

Isis, some of them returned from

conflicts, some of them may have

0:39:200:39:25

been arrested for minor offences.

Those individuals, it's easier to

0:39:250:39:29

engage with them so that they can

understand their anger is normal but

0:39:290:39:33

also understand how they are being

manipulated by these ideas and by

0:39:330:39:37

these groups. And then allow them a

means by which they can reconcile

0:39:370:39:42

with themselves.

Do you talk to

them?

One of the ways obviously is

0:39:420:39:46

to be able to get them to talk and

explain their perspective, and

0:39:460:39:51

getting them to reflect on what they

are thinking about. Often they have

0:39:510:39:56

a certain set of assumptions which

are quite dangerous. Getting them to

0:39:560:40:00

realise their political worldview is

quite immature but also that that

0:40:000:40:05

emotions are in conflict with their

religious sensibilities.

As you

0:40:050:40:09

know, some people feel it unfairly

targets Muslims, this programme.

0:40:090:40:16

Here are some students we spoke to

last year.

There is a real sense of

0:40:160:40:21

fear and suspicion, and questioning

of where the academic freedoms come

0:40:210:40:29

in.

0:40:290:40:32

So on campuses we've got people self

censoring in classrooms.

0:40:320:40:35

We've got, you know,

students worried about what websites

0:40:350:40:37

they can go on, students worried

about what they can study, cutting

0:40:370:40:40

things out of their dissertations

because they're scared.

0:40:400:40:42

And it's really curtailing

the freedom of someone who wants

0:40:420:40:44

to come to university and wants

to study things, and that's

0:40:440:40:47

the whole point, right?

0:40:470:40:48

There have been occasions

where I have been sort of afraid

0:40:480:40:50

to put my head above the parapet

and sort of give my opinions

0:40:500:40:53

on certain things at the risk

of sort of being treated

0:40:530:40:56

as an outcast.

0:40:560:40:57

Or treated as you know someone

that may be suspected

0:40:570:41:00

of being at risk of radicalisation.

0:41:000:41:04

You know, I mean, when I've been

searching for certain things,

0:41:040:41:06

some of my friends have been saying

to me, be careful.

0:41:060:41:09

Use Incognito, because if

the university wonders what you're

0:41:090:41:11

doing, then that puts you in a very

precarious, vulnerable

0:41:110:41:16

position where your freedoms

may be curtailed, and,

0:41:160:41:20

you know, basically be

like the thought police.

0:41:200:41:26

Do you think there's

a sense of paranoia,

0:41:260:41:28

oversensitivity, on this issue?

0:41:280:41:31

I don't think there is

a paranoia, oversensitivity,

0:41:310:41:33

because I personally know of people

who have been referred to Prevent

0:41:330:41:38

over a simple aspect

of they were in a debate based

0:41:380:41:42

on theology and religion,

and this was organised by the sixth

0:41:420:41:45

form debating society.

0:41:450:41:48

And because they had

their own religious beliefs,

0:41:480:41:51

which I personally believe I share

similar practices of Islam to them,

0:41:510:41:56

and for them to be referred

to the Prevent officer,

0:41:560:41:59

and then get searched,

the whole house, his computer,

0:41:590:42:01

his phones, everything.

0:42:010:42:06

I don't think there

is oversensitivity.

0:42:060:42:08

I should be cautious, because this

has happened to my friend.

0:42:080:42:10

So it could happen to me.

0:42:100:42:17

The students I met at Brunel

were all familiar with this man's

0:42:170:42:20

story and used it as an example

of why they were on edge

0:42:200:42:23

with the Prevent strategy on campus.

0:42:230:42:24

Mohammed is 33.

0:42:240:42:25

Until last year, he was studying

a mast at Staffordshire

0:42:250:42:28

University in terrorism.

0:42:280:42:30

He was reading this book

on terrorism studies

0:42:300:42:32

in the campus library,

part of the course reading list,

0:42:320:42:34

when he was questioned

by a member of staff.

0:42:340:42:38

Do you support Isis?

0:42:380:42:39

Do you dislike homosexuality?

0:42:390:42:43

Do you think that the three girls

who left Bethnal Green

0:42:430:42:46

in order to join Isis,

what you think of this?

0:42:460:42:49

And the questions became

progressively intrusive.

0:42:490:42:52

I was reading this

very page of the book,

0:42:520:42:54

which is about the definition.

0:42:540:42:56

The staff never was concerned

after the conversation,

0:42:560:42:58

and under the Prevent duty wanted

to flag it up.

0:42:580:43:00

Security on campus were asked

for Mohammed's details.

0:43:000:43:03

Once he found out what was going on,

he launched his own complaint

0:43:030:43:06

against the university,

hired a lawyer.

0:43:060:43:08

Do you think that there was anything

that you said that gave the member

0:43:080:43:13

of staff reason for concern,

and rightly so she went

0:43:130:43:15

and investigated further?

0:43:150:43:18

No, there was no I think

or I believe, it was surely

0:43:180:43:21

so-and-so said or it's been said

or narrated in such-a-such a work.

0:43:210:43:24

So I followed the academic

code to the exact level.

0:43:240:43:27

But unfortunately that

did me no favours.

0:43:270:43:31

Mohammed's studies were put on hold

while the University

0:43:310:43:33

launched an investigation.

0:43:330:43:35

They apologised, but he's

decided not to go back.

0:43:350:43:43

Is that an example of the strategy

working or not working?

I don't

0:43:430:43:49

think any of those are examples of

the strategy at all. The first

0:43:490:43:53

incident weather girl is complaining

about somebody being searched and

0:43:530:43:56

their property being looked at has

nothing to do with Prevent. It's an

0:43:560:44:02

investigation that has taken place

which is a different part of the

0:44:020:44:06

counterterrorism strategy, so

obviously there's been some kind of

0:44:060:44:09

terrorism connection there. I don't

know the details but that's got

0:44:090:44:12

nothing to do with Prevent. The

second case with the individual, we

0:44:120:44:16

can't comment on the details, but

has nothing to do with a Prevent

0:44:160:44:20

prefer -- Prevent referral. I don't

think it's to do with the referral

0:44:200:44:29

process or prevention. I think a lot

of the time some of the issues that

0:44:290:44:32

are raised genuine issues but a lot

of the time they come into a

0:44:320:44:37

political context, where people have

a view regarding what Prevent is or

0:44:370:44:41

are part of the ideological battle.

Whether it's on the hard left or the

0:44:410:44:48

Islamist Wright, who see Prevent as

being curtailing their ideological

0:44:480:44:52

belief system.

I've got a comment

from the National police Chief's

0:44:520:45:00

Council, their lead for Prevent.

This is what he says about the

0:45:000:45:05

figures. These figures out this

morning demonstrate trust and

0:45:050:45:08

support in Prevent is growing. Each

of the 7631 referrals for someone

0:45:080:45:14

trying to guide a person they had

concerns about a way from harm and

0:45:140:45:18

towards the help they may have

needed. That's his very positive

0:45:180:45:23

spin on these figures. You can see

that some might say, hang on, this

0:45:230:45:28

is people overreacting.

The thing

is, the more people that are aware,

0:45:280:45:33

Prevent is simply about protecting

honourable adults and children. That

0:45:330:45:40

is the baseline. We've got to deal

with that. The more reports there is

0:45:400:45:43

for me, the more people it's being

helped.

Thank you very much for

0:45:430:45:46

coming on the programme. Still to

come, more reaction to Priti Patel's

0:45:460:45:52

resignation and what Theresa May

needs to do to get a grip of the

0:45:520:45:55

situation.

0:45:550:45:58

Virtual reality is capturing the

imaginations of gamers everywhere.

0:45:580:46:00

It transports players into worlds

that are so immersive

0:46:000:46:02

they seem almost real.

0:46:020:46:03

But its potential goes far

beyond computer games.Psychologists

0:46:030:46:06

and computer scientists are testing

to see whether the technology

0:46:060:46:08

could be used to treat mental health

conditions.They believe that

0:46:080:46:10

because the virtual scenarios

are so realistic, they could be used

0:46:100:46:13

to train and heal our minds.

0:46:130:46:22

With mental health services

under so much pressure,

0:46:220:46:23

could virtual therapy

be the solution?

0:46:230:46:25

We sent our reporter

Jean Mackenzie to test it out.

0:46:250:46:34

For some, a phobia of heights can be

an almost paralysing experience.

0:46:340:46:40

Simply standing too close to an edge

can create intense fear.

0:46:400:46:45

Floor ten.

0:46:450:46:49

This is a virtual reality simulator,

designed not only to induce a fear

0:46:490:46:52

of heights, but also

to help conquer it.

0:46:520:46:55

The view from here

is amazing, isn't it?

0:46:550:46:59

So I'm now right up at the top

of the building, and I can see

0:46:590:47:02

the roof just above me.

0:47:020:47:03

And it is very high up.

0:47:030:47:05

How's your anxiety now?

0:47:050:47:06

I still feel OK.

0:47:060:47:09

Quite high up to be

this close to the edge

0:47:090:47:11

with very little barrier.

0:47:110:47:13

But OK.

0:47:130:47:15

What I'd like you to do

is pick eight apples.

0:47:150:47:18

To reach them, use the platform.

0:47:180:47:19

You push the lever forwards,

and it will take you out.

0:47:190:47:22

Let's give it a go.

0:47:220:47:25

OK, I'm moving forward.

0:47:250:47:27

Very good.

0:47:270:47:29

Right, that's one.

0:47:290:47:30

I need to get eight, right?

0:47:300:47:38

Yeah.

0:47:380:47:39

Where shall I put them?

0:47:390:47:41

Oh, you can throw it.

0:47:410:47:42

Oh, OK.

0:47:420:47:43

That's fun.

0:47:430:47:44

This one's quite far away.

0:47:440:47:45

I've got to lean quite far

over to get this one.

0:47:450:47:48

I don't think I'd normally

do this in real life.

0:47:480:47:50

I would not have leant that far

forward if this was for real.

0:47:500:47:53

I can tell you that.

0:47:530:47:54

Take the headphones off.

0:47:540:47:55

So that was quite

challenging in some areas.

0:47:550:47:59

Now, I'm not scared

of heights myself, but you do

0:47:590:48:01

get a sense of feeling

like you are in this space

0:48:010:48:04

that is recreated quite well,

and the sense of movement, as well.

0:48:040:48:06

In the lift, you feel

like you're moving up.

0:48:060:48:11

You feel like you're moving out.

0:48:110:48:12

And they contribute to making

you feel a little bit uneasy,

0:48:120:48:15

a little bit uncertain on your feet.

0:48:150:48:17

But what will it evoked

in someone with a real phobia?

0:48:170:48:19

This is Liz.

0:48:190:48:20

And her fear of heights was starting

to take over her life.

0:48:200:48:23

Great.

0:48:230:48:24

Let's get started.

0:48:240:48:26

If I had to be in a situation

where I was confronted

0:48:260:48:29

with a height, I would feel

very, very tense.

0:48:290:48:31

Um...

Sort of jumpy.

0:48:310:48:41

And certain height situations

made me feel not just that

0:48:430:48:45

I might fall over the edge,

but that I actually might

0:48:450:48:48

voluntarily go over the edge,

which is a really,

0:48:480:48:50

really unnerving feeling.

0:48:500:48:51

I didn't trust myself

with heights any more.

0:48:510:48:54

I felt anxious as to

how I might react.

0:48:540:48:57

You're doing marvellously.

0:48:570:49:00

Would you like to try

the next floor up?

0:49:000:49:02

Yes.

0:49:020:49:05

Even though you're...

0:49:050:49:08

You know it's not a real world,

you do feel the symptoms

0:49:080:49:18

of fear that you would do,

but you're braver because you

0:49:190:49:21

know that you're safe.

0:49:210:49:22

Liz has completed this course,

and to her amazement,

0:49:220:49:24

it's had a powerful effect.

0:49:240:49:34

How did this feel, Liz,

when you were doing it

0:49:340:49:37

for the first time?

0:49:370:49:38

Oh, I was very nervous.

0:49:380:49:39

Um...

0:49:390:49:40

My hands were sweating

on a few of the occasions,

0:49:400:49:42

which is not normal for me.

0:49:420:49:44

And I felt very jumpy,

at any sort of sound change.

0:49:440:49:46

I mean, I could do it,

but I didn't feel very stable.

0:49:460:49:49

But now I feel hugely

more confident.

0:49:490:49:51

I thought that it had perhaps

changed, but I wasn't really sure

0:49:510:49:54

to what extent until I tried it,

so after that session,

0:49:540:49:57

I did go out and put

myself into some positions

0:49:570:49:59

where you are sort of facing

heights, and I was really,

0:49:590:50:02

really surprised at how differently

I felt about it.

0:50:020:50:07

So exposure therapy

is when a person is exposed

0:50:070:50:10

to the situation that they're

fearful of, that they

0:50:100:50:12

might be avoiding.

0:50:120:50:16

Dr Nihara Krause is a clinical

psychologist who's been treating

0:50:160:50:18

mental health problems for more

than 20 years.

0:50:180:50:21

Exposure therapy is something

that is seen as helping people learn

0:50:210:50:27

to manage their automatic fear

response, their physiological

0:50:270:50:30

response, and become

desensitised to that response.

0:50:300:50:40

It doesn't fill threatening,

and so I don't feel anxious.

0:50:430:50:46

And I feel comfortable with it.

0:50:460:50:47

Would you actually go as far

as to say you feel comfortable?

0:50:470:50:50

Yes,

I would.

0:50:500:50:51

Which is quite remarkable, really.

0:50:510:50:52

There's something beautiful about VR

in the fact that people know it's

0:50:520:50:55

not real and they can try things

that they've not done before,

0:50:550:51:01

not done for a long time,

yet mind and body does behave

0:51:010:51:04

as if it's in the real world.

0:51:040:51:07

And what they're basically doing,

like Liz, is learning a new memory,

0:51:070:51:11

in her instance about safety around

heights, and that memory of safety

0:51:110:51:15

is replacing and helping diminish

the fear memory that she had.

0:51:150:51:21

One in four of us will have

some sort of mental

0:51:210:51:24

health problem this year.

0:51:240:51:25

And with the number of people

seeking treatment rising,

0:51:250:51:28

a new approach could be needed.

0:51:280:51:33

Specific phobias are one

thing, but what about

0:51:330:51:35

anxiety or depression?

0:51:350:51:45

These are more complex

conditions, more nuanced.

0:51:450:51:47

Can a machine ever really

replace a human when it

0:51:470:51:49

comes to treating these?

0:51:490:51:50

Mel Slater certainly hopes so.

0:51:500:51:52

His latest programme simulates

a therapist's office,

0:51:520:51:53

and uses a popular psychological

technique called body swapping.

0:51:530:52:03

So this is a kind of

virtual self-help therapy,

0:52:030:52:05

where you can talk

to yourself as if you were a friend,

0:52:050:52:08

because we know we are better

at solving friends' problems

0:52:080:52:12

than we are our own problems.

0:52:120:52:14

So it gives you a way to get

a better perspective on your issues.

0:52:140:52:17

This is Emily, who has

severe social anxiety.

0:52:170:52:23

I have this constant voice

in my head telling me that

0:52:230:52:25

I'm not good enough,

and people will sort of notice

0:52:250:52:28

and judge me for that.

0:52:280:52:32

Daily interactions, like ordering

a coffee or taking a book out

0:52:320:52:35

of the library, I get really hot

and quite flushed and flustered.

0:52:350:52:37

My breathing gets quicker.

0:52:370:52:38

And then you're just suddenly,

everything spills over.

0:52:380:52:40

Can this treatment help?

0:52:400:52:43

To begin, Emily must explain her

problem to a virtual therapist.

0:52:430:52:48

I experience a lot of

anxiety at university,

0:52:480:52:50

especially social anxiety,

which affects me in lectures.

0:52:500:52:58

Now she swaps chairs

in the virtual reality,

0:52:580:53:00

and gets to hear her avatar

relay her problem.

0:53:000:53:02

I experience a lot of

anxiety at university,

0:53:020:53:05

especially social anxiety,

which affects me in lectures.

0:53:050:53:09

And going out, sporting events.

0:53:090:53:12

Now it's her job as the therapist

to counsel herself.

0:53:120:53:16

Have you thought of using

any methods to try to

0:53:160:53:18

calm yourself down?

0:53:180:53:21

Focusing on your breathing, trying

to find the cause of your anxiety

0:53:210:53:24

and managing your thoughts?

0:53:240:53:29

And she's now back in her own body,

ready to hear that advice.

0:53:290:53:32

Have you thought of using

any methods to try to

0:53:320:53:35

calm yourself down?

0:53:350:53:36

Focusing on your breathing, trying

to find the cause of your anxiety

0:53:360:53:39

and managing your thoughts?

0:53:390:53:44

I think it's quite difficult

when you are experiencing a moment

0:53:440:53:46

of heightened anxiety to remember

necessarily some of the techniques

0:53:460:53:49

that you've been taught.

0:53:490:53:52

I think knowing that it was me maybe

made it less helpful,

0:53:520:53:55

because it was still kind

of my voice.

0:53:550:53:57

But it is, I guess, reassuring,

like a bit of a self mantra,

0:53:570:54:07

so something that you were saying

to somebody else could

0:54:070:54:10

actually be useful and you

could take it on board.

0:54:100:54:12

Body swapping is something that can

be used again as a tool that

0:54:120:54:15

accompanies your treatment.

0:54:150:54:18

However, it assumes that a person

has first of all got the ability

0:54:180:54:21

to put themselves in someone else's

position, which isn't always

0:54:210:54:23

very easy for people.

0:54:230:54:27

The second assumption is that people

have the verbal ability to be able

0:54:270:54:32

to express something objectively,

which again for some

0:54:320:54:34

people isn't very easy.

0:54:340:54:36

So I would have concerns about

somebody doing it on their own.

0:54:360:54:40

So we know there's a crisis

of mental health in the UK

0:54:400:54:43

and other countries.

0:54:430:54:49

We know that people often have

to wait a long time for appointments

0:54:490:54:53

where issues that are fairly mild

over time can become

0:54:530:54:55

much, much worse.

0:54:550:54:57

And maybe this can be a stopgap

before they see the real therapist.

0:54:570:55:00

So it's very early days.

0:55:000:55:02

We don't really know yet.

0:55:020:55:05

But these are the kind of ideas

that we are investigating right now.

0:55:050:55:08

And you've had conventional

talking therapy.

0:55:080:55:10

How does this compare?

0:55:100:55:11

Can it compare?

0:55:110:55:15

Um...

I think it's difficult to compare

0:55:150:55:18

it, because there's somebody

physically in front of you who's

0:55:180:55:20

trained to offer advice.

0:55:200:55:23

Whereas if you're talking

to yourself, you know,

0:55:230:55:25

I'm not a trained mental health

professional.

0:55:250:55:28

I don't know maybe the best

techniques that you could use.

0:55:280:55:31

I'm really excited.

0:55:310:55:35

I think we can make a fun,

interactive and effective treatment

0:55:350:55:37

for people that will change how

mental health problems

0:55:370:55:39

are dealt with.

0:55:390:55:42

Some people I think are nervous,

perhaps worried about therapists

0:55:420:55:45

being replaced, but we don't see

it like that.

0:55:450:55:50

We think VR can aid therapists,

but more importantly,

0:55:500:55:53

aid so many more people getting

the psychological

0:55:530:55:55

advice that they need.

0:55:550:55:57

If we going to radically

increase the provision

0:55:570:56:00

of psychological treatments,

then we're going to need

0:56:000:56:01

technologies like VR.

0:56:010:56:08

This therapy will now be

trialled on 100 people.

0:56:080:56:11

The aim is to get it into clinics

and even people's homes.

0:56:110:56:14

My son asked me, I'd

like to go and do Go Ape.

0:56:140:56:16

He has mentioned it before.

0:56:160:56:19

I have managed to move

the conversation on,

0:56:190:56:21

and we've not done it.

0:56:210:56:24

I wouldn't even have really liked

to see him doing it.

0:56:240:56:27

But I thought, OK,

I've done this course.

0:56:270:56:29

I'm going to try it.

0:56:290:56:30

We did it.

0:56:300:56:31

And it was amazing.

0:56:310:56:34

You're crossing sort

of bridges where there's

0:56:340:56:36

great gaps in the steps,

or walking across a sort

0:56:360:56:39

of tightrope walk,

and I was able to look down.

0:56:390:56:41

It's liberating.

0:56:410:56:46

I feel it's given me a lot

of confidence as well, actually,

0:56:460:56:49

because part of this reason to do

this course as well as conquer my

0:56:490:56:55

fear was I feel like it's good

to show my son that a fear that

0:56:550:56:59

you already have, or something that

you're frightened of,

0:56:590:57:01

you can get over it if you really

put your mind to it.

0:57:010:57:05

And thank you for your e-mails on

how your pets have transformed your

0:57:140:57:20

lights. Christine collected her

Yorkshire Terrier Rosti --

0:57:200:57:27

transformed your lives. She was

rescued by the RSPCA along with 40

0:57:270:57:36

other yorkies and was kept in

kennels just for breeding. As you

0:57:360:57:39

can imagine she was traumatised and

traumatised when I took her home and

0:57:390:57:42

forced. When I brought her home I

was at a very low ebb, feeling life

0:57:420:57:47

had no purpose for me, but Rosti and

I bonded from the first moment and

0:57:470:57:51

we have been inseparable since. --

Rusty. I tell everyone she is a

0:57:510:57:59

rescue dog who actually rescued me.

Christine from the Isle of Wight,

0:57:590:58:04

thank you.

0:58:040:58:06

Let's get the latest

weather update with Carol.

0:58:060:58:11

Turning colder, especially this

weekend. At the moment it is chilly

0:58:110:58:15

for summer us, but

0:58:150:58:16

weekend. At the moment it is chilly

for summer us, but then for others.

0:58:160:58:17

14 Celsius in Yorkshire at the

moment, 12 in Cardiff and further

0:58:170:58:21

south into London, the temperature

no picking up, at eight. We have

0:58:210:58:27

this weather front which is

cascading southwards taking the

0:58:270:58:31

cloud and rain with it as it does so

and behind it allowing the sunshine

0:58:310:58:35

already in the North to spread that

bit further south. Through the

0:58:350:58:37

course of this morning you can see

the patchy rain and drizzle they

0:58:370:58:43

are, the sunshine coming out behind

it, in the North Midlands into Wales

0:58:430:58:47

and south-west England, but we do

have a rash of showers coming in on

0:58:470:58:51

a blustery wind across the North of

Scotland. Into the afternoon, we

0:58:510:58:54

still have the remnants of that

front across the Isle of Wight,

0:58:540:58:59

Southern counties, Kent, Essex,

parts of East Anglia as well and

0:58:590:59:02

this is Midlands. Moving north, back

into the sunny skies. A pleasant

0:59:020:59:06

day. The same across most of

Scotland with the exception of the

0:59:060:59:12

North and the north-west where we

hang on to all those showers. For

0:59:120:59:17

Northern Ireland for most of the day

you will have a fine day with some

0:59:170:59:20

sunshine, and later we will see the

cloud build in the West and for

0:59:200:59:24

Wales when we lose this morning's

load the sun will come out. In South

0:59:240:59:31

Wales and south-west England as

well, in the sunshine, 13 or 14

0:59:310:59:35

Celsius. Through this evening and

overnight, there goes the front,

0:59:350:59:39

taking the rain with it, clear skies

following behind. You can also see a

0:59:390:59:43

new system coming in from the West,

introducing thicker cloud, breezy

0:59:430:59:47

conditions and some rain. North of

that, it will be a cold night,

0:59:470:59:52

widespread frost in Scotland, and we

will also still have those showers,

0:59:520:59:55

wintry on the hills, and that holds

true tomorrow. Tomorrow will again

0:59:551:00:03

be a blustery day. But tomorrow the

weather front sinking south will

1:00:031:00:05

clear more readily from Southern

counties and the channel islands

1:00:051:00:07

that we are expecting today, and

there will be a lot of sunshine

1:00:071:00:11

around and those showers, then later

we have more rain across Northern

1:00:111:00:16

Ireland and into south-west England.

Into Saturday, Armistice Day, Varane

1:00:161:00:22

will pull away from the south and

then we're looking at today operates

1:00:221:00:25

bells, sunshine and showers but it

will feel much cooler -- the rain

1:00:251:00:32

will pull away. Standing around

outside it will feel cold. Showers

1:00:321:00:38

in the north, the West and east, but

in between a fair bit of sunshine.

1:00:381:00:46

Cheers, Carol.

1:00:461:00:52

Hello, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:00:521:00:54

Another headache for Theresa May

as she loses her second

1:00:541:00:57

senior minister in a week.

1:00:571:00:58

So as Priti Patel resigns,

what's next for the government?

1:00:581:01:00

We've got a very weak Prime

Minister, are still divided

1:01:001:01:03

We've got a very weak Prime

Minister, are still divided country

1:01:031:01:03

and party, and I think it is very

justified for European leaders to

1:01:031:01:07

wonder whether this is a government

they can do business with.

More

1:01:071:01:11

reaction in the next half-hour.

1:01:111:01:14

Thousands of children

and teenagers have been referred

1:01:141:01:16

to the government's Prevent

anti-terror scheme due to fears

1:01:161:01:18

they were being drawn

into radicalisation,

1:01:181:01:20

including more than 500 girls.

1:01:201:01:26

If there are people who need support

I'd rather we were aware of them.

1:01:261:01:33

We'll talk to some of those

behind the schemes to stop

1:01:331:01:36

radicalisation in schools.

1:01:361:01:42

And fewer of us are owning pets

apparently, but we'll be talking

1:01:421:01:45

to a group of animal lovers

who say owning a pet has

1:01:451:01:48

changed their lives.

1:01:481:01:50

Annita McVeigh is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

1:02:001:02:02

of the rest of the day's news.

1:02:021:02:04

Theresa May is under pressure

to restore stability

1:02:041:02:06

to the Government after

the second resignation

1:02:061:02:08

from her Cabinet in a week.

1:02:081:02:09

The International Development

Secretary, Priti Patel,

1:02:091:02:10

stepped down last night after more

questions were raised

1:02:101:02:13

about her unauthorised meetings

with Israeli politicians.

1:02:131:02:14

Ms Patel was a prominent Brexit

supporter, and the Prime Minister

1:02:141:02:17

is facing calls to replace her

with someone who also

1:02:171:02:19

backs leaving the EU.

1:02:191:02:23

Police forces in England and Wales

are struggling to meet demand,

1:02:231:02:25

due to a surge in the number

of calls from members of the public.

1:02:251:02:29

A survey by the policing watchdog

says the service is under

1:02:291:02:31

significant stress because of budget

cuts although it says forces

1:02:311:02:34

could help by making

further efficiencies.

1:02:341:02:44

Thousands of children and teenagers

have been flagged up to the

1:02:511:02:53

governance anti-terrorist scheme.

That included more than 500 girls.

1:02:531:03:05

British officials will travel

to Brussels for further

1:03:051:03:07

Brexit talks today.

1:03:071:03:08

It's the first set of negotiations

since EU leaders agreed to begin

1:03:081:03:11

preparing for discussions

about the future

1:03:111:03:12

relationship with Britain.

1:03:121:03:13

The Brexit secretary,

David Davis and the EU's chief

1:03:131:03:15

negotiator Michel Barnier will join

the talks tomorrow, which are likely

1:03:151:03:18

to centre around the UK's financial

obligations and the rights

1:03:181:03:20

of British people living in the EU.

1:03:201:03:26

US President Donald Trump has urged

Chinese leader Xi Jinping to work

1:03:261:03:29

very hard on persuading North Korea

to give up its nuclear weapons.

1:03:291:03:32

Discussions on how to deal

with North Korea's threats

1:03:321:03:35

to the region have dominated

the agenda during Mr

1:03:351:03:38

Trump's Asian tour.

1:03:381:03:40

This morning he warned

that "time is quickly

1:03:401:03:42

running out" to deal

with the North Korean

1:03:421:03:44

nuclear threat.

1:03:441:03:52

The United States is committed to

the complete and permanent

1:03:521:04:01

denuclearisation of North Korea.

China can fix this problem quickly

1:04:011:04:05

and I'm calling on China and your

great president to hopefully work on

1:04:051:04:10

it very hard. I know one thing about

your president, if he works on it

1:04:101:04:17

hard, it will happen. There's no

doubt about it.

1:04:171:04:20

Reports from Hollywood say

Kevin Spacey is to be edited out

1:04:201:04:23

of a new film six weeks

before its release

1:04:231:04:25

following the recent

allegations of sexual assault.

1:04:251:04:27

Spacey, who plays Jean Paul

Getty in the thriller,

1:04:271:04:29

All The Money In The World" will be

replaced by the Oscar-winning

1:04:291:04:32

Canadian actor, Christopher Plummer.

1:04:321:04:33

The release will still go ahead

as planned on December the 22nd.

1:04:331:04:40

Scientists say skin injuries such

as cuts heal quicker

1:04:401:04:42

if they happen during the day.

1:04:421:04:44

Researchers found that people

who suffered burns after 8pm took

1:04:441:04:46

an average of 28 days to get better

compared with 17 for

1:04:461:04:49

the daytime injuries.

1:04:491:04:52

They think the human body

clock is reason why.

1:04:521:05:00

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News, more at 10.30.

1:05:001:05:07

Allen wants to say, I've been a

supporter of the Conservative Party

1:05:071:05:11

for more than 15 years but like so

many other supporters I'm so

1:05:111:05:15

disillusioned with the infighting

and disarray. It is a failure of

1:05:151:05:19

this government to listen to and act

on the concerns of the public. If

1:05:191:05:24

you have advice for Theresa May, let

me know. Send me an e-mail, tweet,

1:05:241:05:29

etc.

1:05:291:05:31

Here's some sport now.

1:05:311:05:32

The one-off Test in the Women's

Ashes Series is under way in Sydney.

1:05:321:05:35

England won the toss

and chose to bat.

1:05:351:05:39

England cannot afford to lose this

or Australia will retain the Ashes.

1:05:391:05:45

It's actually the first

day-night Ashes Test.

1:05:451:05:47

England lost Lauren Winfield

cheaply, but a century partenrshiup

1:05:471:05:51

bewteen Captain Heather Knight

who made 62 and Tammy Beaumont, 70,

1:05:511:05:53

put them in control.

1:05:531:05:56

England lost their momentum

when they fell, Knight was one

1:05:561:05:59

of two wickets for Jess Jonassen.

1:05:591:06:06

England have lost a couple more in

the last hour. Sarah Taylor caught

1:06:061:06:16

and bowled. Sharp fielding their

from Belize Perry. -- Elysse Perry.

1:06:161:06:28

Quick update on the England men,

their Ashes Series starts

1:06:281:06:30

at the end of the month.

1:06:301:06:32

They are in Adelaide for the second

day of a four day tour match.

1:06:321:06:35

Jake Ball went over on his ankle

and had to leave the field

1:06:351:06:38

and is a doubt for the rest

of the match.

1:06:381:06:41

Australia are 198-7,

95 runs behind England.

1:06:411:06:50

Eni Aluko say she feels let down by

some of her team-mates are not

1:06:521:06:56

supporting her following her

accusations against Mark Sampson.

1:06:561:07:02

The FA have apologised to her often

an enquiry found he had used

1:07:021:07:07

racially discriminatory language

towards her and another player.

1:07:071:07:12

It's been very divisive and very

adversarial and I think the players

1:07:121:07:15

have been dragged into that.

1:07:151:07:16

But the players have their own mind

and they should be able to say,

1:07:161:07:19

actually, let me step back from this

and see how this may benefit.

1:07:191:07:22

If I have a problem,

if they have a problem,

1:07:221:07:26

they have a process that is going

to protect them.

1:07:261:07:30

Aluko was an unused substitute

last night for Chelsea,

1:07:301:07:32

as they beat Rosengard in the first

leg of their last 16

1:07:321:07:35

Champions' League tie.

1:07:351:07:39

They won 3-0, so will be odds-on

to reach the quarterfinals.

1:07:391:07:43

Fran Kirkby scored

the pick of their goals.

1:07:431:07:51

A massive night for Northern Ireland

in Belfast. The first leg of their

1:07:511:07:58

play-off match against Switzerland.

1:07:581:08:02

They haven't appeared

in a World Cup for 32 years,

1:08:021:08:04

and they haven't appeared

in back-to-back major tournaments

1:08:041:08:06

ever, but following last year's

appearance at Euro 2016,

1:08:061:08:08

where they reached the last 16,

they now have the chance to qualify

1:08:081:08:12

for Russia next year.

1:08:121:08:13

The first leg is in Belfast this

evening, before the second

1:08:131:08:15

leg in Basel on Sunday.

1:08:151:08:17

A massive few days from Northern

Ireland.

1:08:171:08:19

The players have done fantastically

so far to get to this point.

1:08:191:08:22

At the end of the day,

there's eight countries left

1:08:221:08:24

in Europe and we're the smallest one

going into this situation.

1:08:241:08:27

I see in the squad an opportunity

that they don't want to waste

1:08:271:08:30

but equally, they have done

everything so far and anticipated

1:08:301:08:33

they will do everything over

the next two games to try and make

1:08:331:08:36

it a reality.

1:08:361:08:44

Commentary on that match on Radio 5

live this evening. Follow it across

1:08:441:08:49

the BBC sport website as well. In

Sydney England creeping up to 227-6

1:08:491:08:57

in that must not lose test.

1:08:571:09:01

The Prime Minister is facing

a tricky political balancing act,

1:09:011:09:03

as she decides who should replace

Brexit supporter Priti

1:09:031:09:05

Patel in her top team.

1:09:051:09:09

Ms Patel resigned as International

Development Secretary last night

1:09:091:09:11

over unauthorised meetings

with senior Israeli figures,

1:09:111:09:12

and her departure has fuelled

opposition accusations

1:09:121:09:14

that the government is in chaos,

and Mrs May is getting

1:09:141:09:17

weaker by the day.

1:09:171:09:23

Let's speak to our political

correspondent Eleanor Garnier,

1:09:231:09:25

who is at Downing Street.

1:09:251:09:30

How serious is this?

Put it like

this, Victoria. Theresa May has just

1:09:301:09:36

lost two cabinet ministers in a

week. Her Deputy in all but name

1:09:361:09:40

Damian Green is facing allegations

and an investigation. Allegations he

1:09:401:09:46

strenuously denies, but an

investigation over those. Her

1:09:461:09:48

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson is

facing calls to be sacked or resign

1:09:481:09:54

over what many say was an extremely

serious diplomatic gaffe. Then she's

1:09:541:09:59

got the battle with Brussels and the

Brexit negotiations. Added together

1:09:591:10:03

it doesn't make for a comfortable

background in which to do a

1:10:031:10:07

reshuffle. They aren't easy at the

best of times but now Theresa May

1:10:071:10:10

has Priti Patel, an ardent Brexiteer

campaigner, potentially pretty angry

1:10:101:10:18

on the backbenches, and she has got

to find someone to replace her. The

1:10:181:10:22

question is, thus Theresa May put

someone in who has the right skills

1:10:221:10:26

and experience and choose them based

on those circumstances, or does she

1:10:261:10:30

tried to maintain the extremely

carefully balanced perspective there

1:10:301:10:36

is in Cabinet over Brexit? She

carefully balanced those who

1:10:361:10:39

campaign for Brexit and those who

campaign for remain and does she

1:10:391:10:43

find someone to replace Priti Patel

who is a Brexiteer? That is the

1:10:431:10:50

challenge Theresa May faces and of

course the challenge to look like

1:10:501:10:53

she now has a steady hand, but she

can get control of the situation

1:10:531:10:57

over what many say has been an

extremely chaotic week. We expect

1:10:571:11:02

the appointment sometime today, but

that in itself won't necessarily be

1:11:021:11:07

straightforward. Just last week when

Michael Fallon had to go, he was

1:11:071:11:12

replaced by a key ally of Theresa

May Gavin Williamson. There was a

1:11:121:11:16

lot of criticism and howls of anger

from some in the Conservative Party

1:11:161:11:21

about his meteoric rise from Chief

Whip to Secretary of State for

1:11:211:11:27

Defence. Certainly Theresa May is

not out of the woods.

1:11:271:11:31

Let's speak to Jo-Anne Nadler,

a political commentator and former

1:11:311:11:34

Conservative Party staffer.

1:11:341:11:35

How can Mrs May get a grip of

things?

In the short term she needs

1:11:351:11:40

to report somebody to replace Priti

Patel who has experience and who

1:11:401:11:44

knows something about international

development. She did come a cropper

1:11:441:11:47

last week with this extraordinary

appointment of Gavin Williamson to

1:11:471:11:52

Defence Secretary, someone who had

no ministerial experience and who as

1:11:521:11:56

far as we know doesn't have any

particular expertise in defence.

1:11:561:12:01

That was a mistake it would appear

but certainly she took a lot of

1:12:011:12:08

criticism for that. Now, as she is

deliberating over who should take

1:12:081:12:13

over from Priti Patel, I think she

needs to concentrate on the best

1:12:131:12:16

person for the job.

Rather than

whether they are a Brexiteer or a

1:12:161:12:23

Remainer?

Yasser.

Can you think of

some names?

The obvious person would

1:12:231:12:28

be Alistair Burt is extremely well

respected, who has a long experience

1:12:281:12:33

of working in this kind of field.

But he is very much a Remainer. Even

1:12:331:12:40

as somebody who voted Brexit I think

it's important she focuses on the

1:12:401:12:44

job and getting the right person

into place.

You'll have seen some of

1:12:441:12:48

the headlines today on news websites

on the front of the papers

1:12:481:12:53

suggesting the government could

collapse in the short term, are

1:12:531:12:56

those over the top or is there a

realistic fear?

There is a bit of a

1:12:561:13:01

feeding frenzy at the moment. I

worked for the Conservative Party

1:13:011:13:05

during quite a lot of the Major

government and there were issues,

1:13:051:13:10

crises that happened week on week

almost. And yet that government

1:13:101:13:14

served 4-5 years and was only

deposed at a general election in

1:13:141:13:21

1997, the first rumblings that

things were wrong were very soon

1:13:211:13:25

after John Major was elected back in

1992. Whilst I don't think this is a

1:13:251:13:30

great prognosis, the reality is that

this could carry on for some time.

1:13:301:13:36

The thinking seems to be from those

in the Conservative Party who voted

1:13:361:13:41

for Brexit that Theresa May is their

best shot at getting the kind of

1:13:411:13:46

Brexit they want, which is why there

has been no move to depose her. Is

1:13:461:13:52

that accurate?

That is accurate.

There is also the other issue which

1:13:521:13:56

is there is no obvious person to

replace Theresa May. She is a sort

1:13:561:14:01

of composite figure. She's served

some purposes for the people who

1:14:011:14:05

voted to leave, some for those who

voted remain. Both sides are

1:14:051:14:09

probably concerned that whoever

takes over might have a stronger

1:14:091:14:13

view in either camp. She somehow

manages to straddle both. But the

1:14:131:14:19

reality is that Mrs May didn't go

through an election process, she

1:14:191:14:25

emerged a couple of years ago as the

leader, and I think most people will

1:14:251:14:30

feel that probably hasn't been to

her advantage or to the advantage of

1:14:301:14:33

the party. In looking to replace the

party would have to go through a

1:14:331:14:38

lengthy selection process and hardly

a position to do that at the moment.

1:14:381:14:43

She is being held in place by

external forces.

Thank you.

1:14:431:14:55

Labour's Deputy leader Tom Watson

told me he believes the full truth

1:14:551:14:58

about Priti Patel's meetings and

exactly who she met in Israel is yet

1:14:581:15:03

to emerge. He suspects some in the

Foreign Office did know about the

1:15:031:15:06

meetings in Israel.

On one level

this story is minister does

1:15:061:15:11

something bad, Minister forced to

resign. But I think there are more

1:15:111:15:14

questions that need answering today.

I was told that Priti Patel had

1:15:141:15:19

meetings with Foreign Office

officials from east Jerusalem in the

1:15:191:15:24

consulate, or from the consulate

there. That suggests to me that

1:15:241:15:27

there was knowledge of her visit

that hasn't been admitted by the

1:15:271:15:31

Foreign Office Downing Street. Also,

I was told that the Foreign Office

1:15:311:15:36

has Downing Street -- asked Downing

Street to remove details of the

1:15:361:15:43

meeting. If that was the case I

honestly think Priti Patel deserves

1:15:431:15:49

some recognition that her argument

that there was knowledge of the

1:15:491:15:53

visit, that the Foreign Office

understood it, and be Prime Minister

1:15:531:15:57

in some way felt she had to sack her

only because the revelations were

1:15:571:16:02

made public not because...

The

significance of what you're saying

1:16:021:16:08

if it's true, are you saying Number

10 is saying one thing to

1:16:081:16:13

journalists and the rest of the

world, when knowing something else

1:16:131:16:16

privately?

That could be the case

and that's why I've written to

1:16:161:16:20

Theresa May to ask some detailed

questions. Principally I would like

1:16:201:16:24

to know, did Priti Patel meet

Foreign Office officials on her

1:16:241:16:27

visit to Israel and to the Foreign

Office asked Downing Street not to

1:16:271:16:31

publish the details of those

meetings? Then I think the record

1:16:311:16:35

can be set straight.

1:16:351:16:42

If those meetings did happen in East

Jerusalem and if Number Ten did do

1:16:421:16:47

as you say, what will be the result

of that?

It will show you the public

1:16:471:16:53

report from number ten is not

accurate and it further shows there

1:16:531:16:56

is some attempt to withhold

knowledge of Priti Patel's actions.

1:16:561:17:00

We are very concerned about that

because obviously if Priti Patel bid

1:17:001:17:05

meet Foreign Office officials from

the consulate in East Jerusalem, it

1:17:051:17:09

shows there was knowledge at the

Foreign Office -- if Priti Patel did

1:17:091:17:14

meet. And it shows they have not

been accurate about their knowledge

1:17:141:17:17

of her conduct when she was out

there.

The Times are reporting that

1:17:171:17:23

Brussels, and EU Leader, is

preparing for the British government

1:17:231:17:25

to collapse by the end of the year.

Do you think that is realistic or

1:17:251:17:29

over the top?

I have been in

politics for 30 odd years, an MP for

1:17:291:17:36

16 years, and I have never seen a

weaker administration. I have also

1:17:361:17:39

been a minister at the tail end of a

Labour Government. It does seem to

1:17:391:17:42

me there is very little trust

between very senior people at the

1:17:421:17:46

heart of government, and this

Government is therefore not off

1:17:461:17:52

caused by events, so I think it is

possible that a random event could

1:17:521:17:55

bring the Government down.

That

would mean a general election and

1:17:551:17:59

potentially you and Jeremy Corbyn

taking over the running of the

1:17:591:18:02

country. Are you ready for that, are

you ready with Brexit, which has

1:18:021:18:07

been overshadowed in recent weeks

because of various events?

Yes, but

1:18:071:18:12

obviously if there is a general

election it will be down to voters

1:18:121:18:14

to decide...

Sure, which is why

potentially you could find yourself

1:18:141:18:18

running the country.

Elections can

change governments, yes, and kick a

1:18:181:18:27

government out of office. All I can

say is our Brexit negotiating team

1:18:271:18:31

is led by Keir Starmer who has been

very effective both at outlining the

1:18:311:18:34

big picture, but he can also do

detail. He will put a negotiating

1:18:341:18:38

team in place and make sure we try

to get an outcome from those

1:18:381:18:42

negotiations that benefits British

workers. We've been very clear that

1:18:421:18:46

we want a workers' first Brexit and

that requires us to get tariff free

1:18:461:18:51

access to the Single Market, so I

think it would be a very different

1:18:511:18:55

negotiation. It would still be one

that removes us from the European

1:18:551:19:00

Union and respect the views of the

people in the referendum.

Would

1:19:001:19:04

Labour be minded to ask for an

extension to this deadline of March

1:19:041:19:08

2019 in order to be able to achieve

what you've just described there

1:19:081:19:12

are?

Look, if you want to know the

detail about negotiating strategy

1:19:121:19:16

can I suggest you talk to Keir

Starmer?

I would love to, but do you

1:19:161:19:20

think that would be a idea?

We would

have to take over the negotiations,

1:19:201:19:27

when they take place, and we would

have to take a realistic view of

1:19:271:19:30

whether we can get a negotiated

settlement in time. I'm not going to

1:19:301:19:34

say yes or no on that, but all I can

say to you is from opposition we

1:19:341:19:39

have made our negotiating strategy

very clear, our priorities, and that

1:19:391:19:43

that would obviously be our priority

in government but, is the Government

1:19:431:19:48

going to feel? Who knows. What I am

asking today is for the Government

1:19:481:19:52

to be very clear about the

circumstances of the meetings behind

1:19:521:19:57

Priti Patel's visit in Israel.

I

want to ask you about your

1:19:571:20:02

colleague, the Labour leader in the

Welsh assembler, Carwyn Jones, who

1:20:021:20:06

sacked his cabinet member and friend

Carl Sargeant who it is believed

1:20:061:20:09

took his own life earlier this week

over claims of inappropriate

1:20:091:20:11

behaviour. Why was he sacked instead

of being suspended?

Well, Victoria,

1:20:111:20:20

Carl was a friend of mine, and all I

can say to you on that is that many

1:20:201:20:24

of us are still in grief and we are

still in shock at his loss, so I'm

1:20:241:20:28

not sure about the details of who

said what, when and why, and I'm not

1:20:281:20:34

sure it's appropriate for me to

comment on that now. All I would say

1:20:341:20:37

to you is that if there are lessons

to be learned about how we apply our

1:20:371:20:41

procedures, we will learn them.

Carwyn is speaking to assembly

1:20:411:20:48

members today, and I think I should

leave it there at this difficult

1:20:481:20:51

time for everyone.

I want to ask you

finally about Grenfell, residents

1:20:511:20:58

and survivors of Grenfell. On this

programme we regularly report on how

1:20:581:21:01

they are getting on. What are you

asking for today?

We think that five

1:21:011:21:06

months on from Grenfell the

Government needs to make its pledge

1:21:061:21:08

to people who live in flats,

high-rise apartments, that they will

1:21:081:21:12

be made safe. Only one in 50 flats

has sprinkler systems, and yet we

1:21:121:21:18

know from previous reports in the

fires in flats that 99% of fires are

1:21:181:21:25

extinguished when sprinklers are

present, so we are saying to the

1:21:251:21:31

Government, make a financial pledge

to retrofit every tower block in

1:21:311:21:35

Britain to make sure that we can

look to those Grenfell survivors and

1:21:351:21:42

say to them, no one else will have

to put up with what you have put up

1:21:421:21:45

with, the fear and the misery, and

we are asking the Government to make

1:21:451:21:51

a budget pledge today and my

colleague John Healey is leading on

1:21:511:21:54

this, we are determined to make sure

that it will be the number one

1:21:541:21:57

negotiating position when it comes

to the Finance Bill later in month.

1:21:571:22:01

Tom Watson, Labour's deputy leader.

A couple of e-mails from you. Paul

1:22:011:22:07

says I am a Labour supporter and

even I wish Mrs would take a tough

1:22:071:22:13

line and get a grip when it comes to

the running of our country. Be the

1:22:131:22:17

boss, he says. Katie says Mrs should

retire now and retire to a tax

1:22:171:22:25

haven.

1:22:251:22:25

Still to come:

1:22:251:22:29

We'll be talking about why the

number of pet owners in the UK is

1:22:291:22:32

declining. A small decline, but at

the cry nevertheless, and that was

1:22:321:22:38

obviously an excuse for you to send

in pictures of your own pets. Here

1:22:381:22:42

is one. This little monkey has

changed my life for the better. My

1:22:421:22:46

dog Harvey makes me laugh every day.

Kuyt years, chilling out. And this

1:22:461:22:51

one. A Turkish angora I rescued

almost a year ago. It has taught me

1:22:511:22:58

a lot because I have had to learn

how to communicate with him in

1:22:581:23:05

different ways and learn

perseverance. And this one, yes, I'm

1:23:051:23:10

dog mad and I have five of my own.

Clear, you let them go on the bed!

1:23:101:23:15

Is at the bed? The sofa? -- Claire.

She runs a small dog rescue centre

1:23:151:23:24

in Dorset. No, no, that is my dog!

That is Gracie, and obviously I am

1:23:241:23:33

abusing my position as television

presenter to show my own dog. But

1:23:331:23:37

she is cute, come on! If you want to

get in touch to send an e-mail. You

1:23:371:23:42

can send us a message on Twitter, or

you can use what's up or message us

1:23:421:23:46

on Facebook.

1:23:461:23:52

-- WhatsApp.

1:23:521:23:55

Thousands of children and teenagers

have been flagged up

1:23:551:23:57

to the Government's anti-terror

programme, Prevent,

1:23:571:23:58

according to official figures

released this morning.

1:23:581:24:00

2127 of those referred to the scheme

in 2015-16 were under

1:24:001:24:03

15, including more than 500 girls.

1:24:031:24:12

Another 2000 more were reported

for potential intervention over

1:24:121:24:15

extremism concerns were aged

between 15 and 20.

1:24:151:24:16

Prevent aims to reduce the threat

to the UK by stopping people

1:24:161:24:19

being drawn into terrorism.

1:24:191:24:21

It has sometimes been controversial,

as you know.

1:24:211:24:25

Let's now talk to the West Midlands

regional Prevent lead for further

1:24:251:24:31

and higher education Hifsa

Haroon-Iqbal.

1:24:311:24:32

Head of Islamic Studies

at the counter-extremism

1:24:321:24:34

organisation Quilliam,

Usama Hasan.

1:24:341:24:35

And Labour MP Naz Shah,

who is a member of the Home

1:24:351:24:38

Affairs Select Committee.

1:24:381:24:40

Welcome to. Firstly, reaction to the

figures. Naz Shah, why don't you

1:24:401:24:44

give a reaction to your figure --

these figures?

I am quite alarmed at

1:24:441:24:50

these figures and it reinforces a

lot of my concerns around Prevent,

1:24:501:24:53

especially when you look at the

details of the figures, talking

1:24:531:25:02

about those with vulnerabilities but

it does not give us the details.

1:25:021:25:06

More than 75% were referred with no

further action, so what that tells

1:25:061:25:09

me is we have a real issue, and

certainly the teachers who told us

1:25:091:25:19

in the first select committee, they

need the right support to implement

1:25:191:25:22

the Prevent duties, so this

reinforces my concerns and raises

1:25:221:25:26

more, really.

You mean because

teachers, faith leaders, doctors,

1:25:261:25:30

however, senior figures in the

community, are ferrying kids and

1:25:301:25:33

they shouldn't be? Because they

don't really know what they are

1:25:331:25:35

supposed to be doing. -- they are

repairing kits.

75% of the referrals

1:25:351:25:44

-- they are referring kids. Looking

at the Muslim community, and if you

1:25:441:25:53

look at the Islamic referrals, it is

really worrying. If you have

1:25:531:25:58

referred a child, a young person,

and it turns out that it is nothing

1:25:581:26:03

they are doing is wrong, it really

is worrying for me and is very

1:26:031:26:06

alarming.

Jane Foley, how do you

respond to these figures?

They are

1:26:061:26:12

shocking. -- Usama Hasan, how do you

respond to these figures? A quarter

1:26:121:26:22

of these figures are actually far

right referrals.

Yes, we reflect

1:26:221:26:29

that...

Hundreds of Muslims work for

project back and I know hundreds of

1:26:291:26:34

Muslim mums and dads who are

grateful for Prevent, who called

1:26:341:26:38

Prevent to stop their children

joining Isis in Syria, for example.

1:26:381:26:43

But the 75%, it actually shows there

is a high bar, so referrals go to a

1:26:431:26:49

local channel, and only serious

cases are actually taken on as

1:26:491:26:53

cases, so 75% are weeded out. What

is happening here is there is a new

1:26:531:26:58

duty on schools, and a lot of

teachers are worried if they miss

1:26:581:27:00

somebody they could lose their job

for missing a potential terrorist,

1:27:001:27:04

so in the initial one or two years I

think it is to be expected that

1:27:041:27:07

there will be a lot of false

referrals, if you like.

What effect

1:27:071:27:11

will that have? If you were 16, I

was

1:27:111:27:25

16, and we were referred knowing we

had done nothing but because the

1:27:281:27:31

teacher wasn't quite sure, or

perhaps had suspicions that were

1:27:311:27:33

inaccurate, it would have a real

impact on you, wouldn't it?

It could

1:27:331:27:35

do depending on the individual

circumstances. I'm quite shocked by

1:27:351:27:37

the figures.

Because you think they

are high.

But there is also of me,

1:27:371:27:40

yes, they are high, but also I think

I need to see more of them. On why

1:27:401:27:43

people were referred, and they may

not necessarily have gone on to be

1:27:431:27:46

referred for further interventions

but they may have needed support in

1:27:461:27:49

other areas. For me the important

factor is we need to understand that

1:27:491:27:53

Prevent is very much about

safeguarding, very much about trying

1:27:531:27:57

to stop people from getting involved

in things that could potentially end

1:27:571:28:01

up with them supporting terrorism,

or committing terrorist atrocities

1:28:011:28:05

themselves.

Naz Shah, do you accept

that, safeguarding of young people

1:28:051:28:09

issue?

If it took the safeguarding

approach it would be very effective,

1:28:091:28:14

but it doesn't. What it does, and I

absolutely disagree with Doctor

1:28:141:28:20

Usama 's take on whether it is toxic

or not, because talk to the vast

1:28:201:28:24

majority, and I have a very large

Muslim large Muslim constituency,

1:28:241:28:28

Muslim community within that,

telling me very loudly and clearly,

1:28:281:28:30

and in Bradford and must admit we

don't have the kind of narrative

1:28:301:28:34

around Prevent which is nationally

amongst the Muslim community, simply

1:28:341:28:40

because we work with the community,

and this top-down approach, and we

1:28:401:28:43

have heard in the select committee

academics and teachers coming to us

1:28:431:28:47

and saying they just don't have the

right training to implement their

1:28:471:28:51

Prevent duty, they don't feel

confident enough, and these figures,

1:28:511:28:54

actually with foresight, if you have

the confidence to talk to a young

1:28:541:28:57

person to address their issues, and

when we talk about these young

1:28:571:29:01

people who have no further action,

who are stopped from being exploited

1:29:011:29:07

or being radicalised, then what

happens if they have mental health

1:29:071:29:12

issues? If we took a real

safeguarding approach I would be

1:29:121:29:15

very confident we would be

addressing issues of alienation, of

1:29:151:29:18

poverty. When young people are

vulnerable they are vulnerable for

1:29:181:29:23

reasons, and those reasons are what

we need to be addressing. Those

1:29:231:29:28

reasons of poverty,

disenfranchisement except, and that

1:29:281:29:30

is not what we are getting here so

it is not a safeguarding approach

1:29:301:29:33

being taken by the Government. I

would like it to be but I am not

1:29:331:29:38

convinced it is.

Usama Hasan, what

is the difference between the far

1:29:381:29:43

right extremists and Islamist

extremists try to groom and

1:29:431:29:47

radicalise young people?

Actually

they are very similar, the two

1:29:471:29:51

approaches, they are like mirror

images of each other, based on false

1:29:511:29:57

grievances, victim narrative,

protecting your own tribe and

1:29:571:30:00

accusing the others, the other side,

or Jews or anybody else, of trying

1:30:001:30:04

to wake you up, so you get people

who are basically -- trying to wipe

1:30:041:30:11

you out, sold one side saying people

are trying to target Muslims and

1:30:111:30:15

Islam, and others saying people are

out to target the white race, and it

1:30:151:30:19

is the radicalise is saying we need

to team up and get violent, for

1:30:191:30:22

example. So that is why you see

children reflecting that, sometimes,

1:30:221:30:26

in their essays and comets in class.

Again, the 75% no further action is

1:30:261:30:31

actually the right approach because

all you need in cases is for the

1:30:311:30:35

teacher to talk to the young person,

in a gentle way, and if needed speak

1:30:351:30:39

to the parents as well, a channel

referral of Prevent is an absolute

1:30:391:30:44

last resort. So I would encourage

teachers to use their common sense,

1:30:441:30:47

and deal with this like

safeguarding. A Durham academic

1:30:471:30:51

study showed recently that despite

criticisms the vast majority of

1:30:511:30:54

school heads and managers were quite

happy with how Prevent was working

1:30:541:30:57

and they were using it on the

safeguarding.

1:30:571:31:04

What about the influence of Monsanto

ads on their children? What about

1:31:041:31:08

the influence of what kids can see

on you Tube? -- the influence of

1:31:081:31:14

mums and dads.

We need to try and

stop people getting involved in this

1:31:141:31:19

type of activity. It's not just the

work of government or Prevent

1:31:191:31:24

strategies. This needs to be a

community approach. Young people,

1:31:241:31:29

older people are being radicalised

through all sorts of means. It may

1:31:291:31:33

be happening in their homes but I

think there's a lot that's going on

1:31:331:31:36

on social media, on the internet. We

know for example that from 2010 to

1:31:361:31:41

the present day, 300,000 items of

terrorist related material has been

1:31:411:31:47

taken down from the inter-net. That

includes websites, social media.

1:31:471:31:52

There is a real need for us to get

on top of the agenda. It is very

1:31:521:31:57

much about safeguarding, in the same

way we look at trying to protect

1:31:571:32:02

young people from being involved in

gang culture, from child sexual

1:32:021:32:05

exploitation. This is another form

of grooming and that creaming is

1:32:051:32:10

taking place in all sorts of

settings. It's important the work we

1:32:101:32:14

do recognise that.

The figures

today, when you analyse them a bit

1:32:141:32:19

more, show that 63 people withdrew

from the scheme, from Channel the

1:32:191:32:28

more extreme end of the Prevent

strategy. Explain, Prevent, Channel.

1:32:281:32:34

Prevent is the government strategy

that tries to stop people becoming

1:32:341:32:38

involved in something that could

radicalise them and take them down

1:32:381:32:41

the avenue of supporting or

committing a terrorist offence. If

1:32:411:32:46

someone is deemed to be at risk,

they would then be referred to

1:32:461:32:50

Channel.

63 people withdrew from

Channel because they didn't want to

1:32:501:32:56

cooperate. What will happen to those

people? Brew Channel is voluntary,

1:32:561:33:03

it is not criminal, it is

pre-criminal if you like.

Hundreds

1:33:031:33:09

of people, thousands actually have

been through Channel and have

1:33:091:33:13

benefited from that. They are

grateful for that, especially young

1:33:131:33:21

people who with good mentoring have

been encouraged to seek education,

1:33:211:33:25

employment and have a fulfilling

career. This is by people who could

1:33:251:33:30

have become Muslim extremists, far

right extremists or far left

1:33:301:33:34

extremists. We had a conviction of a

far left extremist recently for

1:33:341:33:39

example. A lot of people have

benefited from this. The approaches

1:33:391:33:43

and perfect of course, there are

always mistakes in any sensitive

1:33:431:33:47

issue like this. We have to take

stock of these figures and analyse

1:33:471:33:52

them carefully and see how we can

improve things stop.

1:33:521:33:58

As well as the work done by

intervention providers we also have

1:33:591:34:03

some fantastic projects that take

place within local communities that

1:34:031:34:07

are run by the communities

themselves who can also support

1:34:071:34:10

these individuals.

Thank you.

1:34:101:34:16

Time for the latest

news - here's Annita.

1:34:161:34:18

The BBC News headlines.

1:34:181:34:19

Theresa May is under pressure

to restore stability

1:34:191:34:21

to the Government after the second

resignation from her

1:34:211:34:23

Cabinet in a week.

1:34:231:34:25

The International Development

Secretary, Priti Patel,

1:34:251:34:28

stepped down last night after more

questions were raised

1:34:281:34:30

about her unauthorised meetings

with Israeli politicians.

1:34:301:34:35

Ms Patel was a prominent Brexit

supporter, and the Prime Minister

1:34:351:34:37

is facing calls to replace her

with someone who also

1:34:371:34:40

backs leaving the EU.

1:34:401:34:44

British officials will travel

to Brussels for further

1:34:441:34:46

Brexit talks today.

1:34:461:34:47

It's the first set of negotiations

since EU leaders agreed to begin

1:34:471:34:50

preparing for discussions

about the future

1:34:501:34:51

relationship with Britain.

1:34:511:34:54

The Brexit secretary,

David Davis and the EU's chief

1:34:541:34:56

negotiator Michel Barnier will join

the talks tomorrow, which are likely

1:34:561:35:00

to centre around the UK's financial

obligations and the rights

1:35:001:35:05

of British people living in the EU.

1:35:051:35:08

Thousands of children and teenagers

have been flagged up

1:35:081:35:10

to the Government's anti-terror

programme, according to new figures

1:35:101:35:12

released this morning.

1:35:121:35:15

The first detailed Home Office

analysis of Prevent reveals that

1:35:151:35:17

over 2000 of those referred

to the scheme in 2015-16

1:35:171:35:23

were under the age of 15,

and included more than 500 girls.

1:35:231:35:30

Police forces in England and Wales

are struggling to meet demand,

1:35:301:35:32

due to a surge in the number

of calls from members of the public.

1:35:321:35:36

A survey by the policing watchdog

says the service is under

1:35:361:35:39

"significant stress"

because of budget cuts,

1:35:391:35:42

although it says forces could help

by making further efficiencies.

1:35:421:35:49

US President Donald Trump has urged

Chinese leader Xi Jinping to "work

1:35:491:35:52

very hard" on persuading North Korea

to give up its nuclear weapons.

1:35:521:35:56

Discussions on how to deal

with North Korea's threats

1:35:561:35:58

to the region have dominated

the agenda during Mr

1:35:581:36:00

Trump's tour of Asia.

1:36:001:36:03

This morning he warned

that "time is quickly

1:36:031:36:05

running out" to deal

with the North Korean

1:36:051:36:07

nuclear threat.

1:36:071:36:11

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:36:111:36:15

Here's some sport now.

1:36:151:36:24

England's women had a late collapse

in the first of their one-off Ashes

1:36:241:36:27

Test against Australia in Sydney.

They closed on 235-7. Australia will

1:36:271:36:33

retain the Ashes if they win that

match.

1:36:331:36:38

Eni Aluko says she is disappointed

by the lack of support she has had

1:36:381:36:41

from England teamates.

1:36:411:36:42

The FA apologised to her

after an inquiry found

1:36:421:36:44

that the former coach Mark sampson

used racially dicriminatory

1:36:441:36:46

language towards her.

1:36:461:36:48

Aluko was an unused substitute last

night as Chelsea beat Rosengard 3-0

1:36:481:36:51

in the Champions League.

1:36:511:36:51

Fran Kirkby scored the pick

of their goals in the first leg

1:36:511:36:54

of their last 16 tie.

1:36:541:36:56

And Northern Ireland are preparing

for the first leg of their World Cup

1:36:561:36:59

play-off against Switzerland.

1:36:591:37:00

They play at Winsdor Park

tonight before the second

1:37:001:37:02

leg in Basel on Sunday.

1:37:021:37:03

That's all your sport.

1:37:031:37:10

I'll be back with more on BBC News

after 11am.

1:37:101:37:14

Liam Albert died in July 2009

after the stolen car he was driving

1:37:141:37:17

crashed during a police pursuit.

1:37:171:37:19

His family demanded to know exactly

why he died and when the Independent

1:37:191:37:22

Police Complaints Commission

investigated, they raised concerns

1:37:221:37:24

over the behaviour of some

of the officers including

1:37:241:37:26

the destruction of photo evidence

and a failure to put

1:37:261:37:29

a tape in the dash cam.

1:37:291:37:35

What followed was years of delay

before the officers were finally

1:37:351:37:37

called to a gross misconduct

hearing last month.

1:37:371:37:43

However, the hearing was thrown out

because the length of time that had

1:37:431:37:46

passed meant a fair hearing

was "not possible".

1:37:461:37:52

Liam's parents have received

an apology but say they're "hurt

1:37:521:37:55

and frustrated" that they'll

never get answers.

1:37:551:38:01

Talking to us now for the first

time is Liam's mother,

1:38:011:38:03

Sharla John, Liam's father,

Delroy Albert, and their

1:38:031:38:05

solicitor, Andre Clovis

from Tuckers Solicitors.

1:38:051:38:11

Thank you very much for talking to

us. You have been waiting a number

1:38:111:38:18

of years to find out the

circumstances of this accident and

1:38:181:38:21

you still don't have the answers.

Explain what that is like to use.

1:38:211:38:26

Disappointing, angry, disillusioned

a little bit by the IPC C. If you've

1:38:261:38:36

never had any dealings with the IPC

C or the police, you believe that

1:38:361:38:40

they will do an independent enquiry

and the truth will come out.

1:38:401:38:48

Unfortunately that hasn't happened.

What has it been like for you?

The

1:38:481:38:53

same. Frustrating, I'm disappointed

as well at the outcome. We just want

1:38:531:38:58

to know the truth and the answers

for our son. It's been very

1:38:581:39:04

frustrating and disappointing for

us.

Tell us about your son.

Liam...

1:39:041:39:11

He was very loving, very, very

loving. He had a passion for cars

1:39:111:39:16

from when he was very young. Not

necessarily driving. Any family

1:39:161:39:20

member could come to the house and

he would offer to wash, clean the

1:39:201:39:24

car, that was from a very, very

young age. He thought of others

1:39:241:39:31

always, and he wore his heart on his

sleeve at all times. He wasn't a bad

1:39:311:39:39

tempered child. Yes, he would do

some things at 17 and 16 that you

1:39:391:39:46

should not have been doing. We don't

condone anything that happened.

1:39:461:39:51

However, he would not go out of his

way to hurt anyone at all.

How do

1:39:511:39:59

you deal with hearing the news that

your son has been killed in an

1:39:591:40:04

accident driving a stolen car after

a police pursuit?

At the time, the

1:40:041:40:11

car wasn't reported stolen. The fact

is the police should have called it

1:40:111:40:23

off a mile and a half before the

accident happened. Which is sad to

1:40:231:40:28

know the fact that these officers

didn't go buy the book. Lessons

1:40:281:40:33

should be learnt and they still

haven't.

After this IPCC, three

1:40:331:40:43

police officers faced gross

misconduct hearings for things like

1:40:431:40:46

failing to seek authority from the

control room for the pursuit.

1:40:461:40:54

Providing an inconsistent account of

what happened. Failing to hand over

1:40:541:40:58

a mobile phone. Deleted photos at

the scene. When you knew there was a

1:40:581:41:02

hearing coming, did you think

finally we'll get the truth?

Yes.

1:41:021:41:08

One of the officers was allowed to

retire before the hearing, and then

1:41:081:41:15

the hearing came. What happened?

Certainly my recollection of how we

1:41:151:41:22

found out was that it was six months

after he had retired, and it was in

1:41:221:41:27

the process of normal communications

with the IPCC. They had discovered

1:41:271:41:31

that this officer had been allowed

to retire by the Metropolitan Police

1:41:311:41:35

and we had no inkling. We were told

by that point it was too late to go

1:41:351:41:40

back and bring that offers into the

misconduct proceedings.

Eventually

1:41:401:41:45

the hearing was set for last month,

but?

It proceeded in the sense that

1:41:451:41:53

there were submissions made by the

officers that their prosecution for

1:41:531:41:58

misconduct shouldn't proceed from

the basis that there had been a

1:41:581:42:02

delay. What was interesting about

the delay was we first found out

1:42:021:42:11

about some of the things that had

gone wrong almost a year after the

1:42:111:42:15

collision. When they were disclosed

to us, the family immediately made

1:42:151:42:20

complaints. The next working day,

complaints went in. What would

1:42:201:42:24

normally happen is the officers

would be notified. It appears the

1:42:241:42:29

Metropolitan Police force who had

conduct of this for the first three

1:42:291:42:32

years didn't notify them. If that

situation is correct. When the IPCC

1:42:321:42:42

took over the investigation they

still didn't notify them. More than

1:42:421:42:49

that, the Metropolitan Police

Service at various stages actively

1:42:491:42:53

delayed the investigation from

starting. First by arguing that

1:42:531:42:57

there had to be the inquest first,

and then by seeking a discontinuance

1:42:571:43:04

from the requirement to investigate

the complaint. When that failed,

1:43:041:43:09

seeking a discontinuance. We then

had to go to the High Court to

1:43:091:43:12

challenge that decision to get

proceedings reinvestigated.

The

1:43:121:43:16

outcome is that the hearing didn't

go ahead because they said too much

1:43:161:43:22

time had passed and so the officers

couldn't get a fair hearing. The Met

1:43:221:43:26

police say our thoughts and

sympathies remain with Liam's family

1:43:261:43:30

for their tragic loss. It is

crucially important for public

1:43:301:43:34

confidence that officers are held to

account and the sad death of Liam

1:43:341:43:37

has been investigated twice through

a managed and then independent IPCC

1:43:371:43:42

enquiry and fully scrutinised. It's

also important officers are treated

1:43:421:43:46

fairly and in the exceptional

circumstances this case the panel

1:43:461:43:50

determined that could not happen.

The IPCC sake, we'd very much regret

1:43:501:43:55

our part in any delay and want to

apologise to the family for the

1:43:551:43:59

frustration and upset this has

caused as well as to the officers

1:43:591:44:02

involved. How do you rationalise

now, finally, the fact you won't get

1:44:021:44:09

the answers you're looking for, and

you have two adjust to that?

We have

1:44:091:44:15

to grieve now. It's been eight

years, eight years of fighting for

1:44:151:44:22

him. Eight years for me personally

of keeping him alive in some way.

1:44:221:44:27

Now it's come to an end, not the

result we wanted, but the end is the

1:44:271:44:32

scary part for me because now I have

to grieve for my son. Basically

1:44:321:44:39

accept the decision that's been

made. There's nowhere we can go

1:44:391:44:42

after this.

A brief point that you

want to make about police pursuits,

1:44:421:44:52

particularly high-speed police

pursuits.

They seem to be on the

1:44:521:44:57

increase, particularly in urban

areas. In 1999 for instance, Sheena

1:44:571:45:06

McDonald the news presenter was

knocked over and seriously injured.

1:45:061:45:09

In that year there were nine, sorry

six deaths. That spiked and dipped

1:45:091:45:19

since then. But in 2016, there were

13 deaths. In the first four months

1:45:191:45:24

of this year, there were 28 deaths.

There are 28 families like this.

You

1:45:241:45:34

believe that requires some scrutiny?

What is worse than that is that the

1:45:341:45:41

macro 25% of those people wholly

unconnected to the pursuit. People

1:45:411:45:46

going about their lawful business.

We need to think about whether these

1:45:461:45:50

pursuits are a proportionate way to

resolve whatever the issue is the

1:45:501:45:54

police are confronted with.

Thank

you.

1:45:541:46:05

The First Minister of Wales,

Carwyn Jones, is due to make

1:46:051:46:07

a statement later today

amid criticism of the way he handled

1:46:071:46:10

misconduct allegations

against a Welsh cabinet member,

1:46:101:46:12

who's believed to

have killed himself.

1:46:121:46:15

The family of Carl Sargeant says

he was denied justice

1:46:151:46:17

because he wasn't given details

of the claims before he was sacked.

1:46:171:46:20

Our Wales correspondent Tomos Morgan

is in Cardiff for us this morning.

1:46:201:46:29

Do you know what Carwyn Jones is

likely to see later?

-- see later.

1:46:291:46:37

What we do know is that Carwyn Jones

will come here to the Senedd to

1:46:371:46:44

discuss with other Labour assembly

members, and he will then issue a

1:46:441:46:52

statement. This is undoubtedly one

of the biggest challenges the First

1:46:521:46:57

Minister has faced during his eight

year tenure as First Minister of

1:46:571:47:00

Wales. There has been criticism from

within his own party about the way

1:47:001:47:05

that the First Minister has handled

the process of the allegations of

1:47:051:47:13

improper conduct against Carl

Sargeant, and other parties in Wales

1:47:131:47:16

have called on him to resign. The

family of Carl Sargeant want an

1:47:161:47:23

independent review into the process

that took place, and just last night

1:47:231:47:27

some more scathing criticism from

former cabinet secretary, and a

1:47:271:47:33

former close ally of Carwyn Jones,

Leighton Andrews, who said he was

1:47:331:47:37

very angry with the way the

situation had been dealt with, and

1:47:371:47:42

angry with the fact that Carwyn

Jones had been conducting interviews

1:47:421:47:47

on the TV and radio on the Monday,

before Carl Sargeant, it is

1:47:471:47:56

understood, took his life. The

family, as you just mentioned there,

1:47:561:48:01

have released some of the details of

the information that was in their

1:48:011:48:06

lawyer's statement to the Labour

Party. They have said that Carl was

1:48:061:48:12

accused of unwanted attention and

inappropriate groping are touching,

1:48:121:48:14

but that he was deprived of natural

justice. He wanted to know more

1:48:141:48:18

details of the allegations against

him, and he was distressed at not

1:48:181:48:23

being able to defend himself because

he didn't have those full details,

1:48:231:48:29

they say, and his mental well-being

had been affected, they said. The

1:48:291:48:33

Labour Party have said that in line

with agreed procedure, the nature of

1:48:331:48:38

the allegations were explained to

Carl Sargeant, and as I see later

1:48:381:48:45

today Carwyn Jones who will come

here to the Senedd to discuss the

1:48:451:48:48

situation with Labour AMs. Business

has been suspended this week in

1:48:481:48:56

light of what has happened and

Labour's Carwyn Jones will release a

1:48:561:49:00

statement but at the moment we do

not know what will be in that

1:49:001:49:03

statement.

Tomos reporting live from

Cardiff, many thanks.

1:49:031:49:09

We're a nation of animal lovers,

with millions of us

1:49:091:49:12

across the country owning pets.

1:49:121:49:13

Aside from the care they provide,

they can also help people

1:49:131:49:16

deal with loneliness,

disability and teach important

1:49:161:49:17

lessons to children.

1:49:171:49:18

But new research today

shows the number of us

1:49:181:49:20

owning pets is declining.

1:49:201:49:24

Let's talk to Teresa Jones,

who got her dogs after her

1:49:241:49:26

children left home.

1:49:261:49:28

She's disabled and spends

a lot of time at home,

1:49:281:49:30

so felt she was in need

of the company.

1:49:301:49:37

And those are her two dogs. Who is

a?

Roscoe and karma. -- who are

1:49:371:49:48

these two.

He has been in a car for

ages so he is a bit excited. Thank

1:49:481:49:56

you for coming in.

1:49:561:49:57

Jo Botting bought two cats

to give her children

1:49:571:50:00

responsibility and teach

them different experiences.

1:50:001:50:05

Alec and Connor are here as well.

Hello.

1:50:051:50:07

Nathalie Ingham is Battersea Cats

and Dogs Home's canine behaviorist

1:50:071:50:11

and training manager,

and thinks there are many

1:50:111:50:13

benefits to owning a pet.

1:50:131:50:17

What a fantastic job!. Also Wilma is

here.

Yes, little Jack Russell and

1:50:171:50:25

Chihuahua cross.

That is mad

breeding! Oh, my gosh! OK, so karma

1:50:251:50:34

and Roscoe, how have they changed

your life, Teresa?

Tremendously. I

1:50:341:50:39

am a little bit agoraphobic as well,

so I find it difficult to get out.

1:50:391:50:43

Without them, I don't go out at all.

I do most of my shopping and things

1:50:431:50:47

at all. I do have Blue Cross who

walk them for me, because there are

1:50:471:50:57

times when I really can't go, but

there are times when I can.

Why get

1:50:571:51:03

two dogs, Teresa? They handle!

Yes,

I had one, Karma, then obviously I

1:51:031:51:09

had quite a few hospital

appointments and things so I was

1:51:091:51:12

worried about leaving her at home on

her own because she is quite

1:51:121:51:15

sensitive thing.

You are a big

softy, are due, Teresa? So you got

1:51:151:51:23

Rascal.

Yes, he is a handful but

definitely keeps entertained.

Alex,

1:51:231:51:28

Connor, how are you, and, Jo, how

are you? Tell me about your decision

1:51:281:51:34

to get cats.

The boys have always

loved animals and then getting a pet

1:51:341:51:40

seemed like a progression, because

when we got the cats four years ago

1:51:401:51:43

they were seven and nine which

seemed a good age for them to learn

1:51:431:51:48

about responsibility and looking

after an animal, but also just the

1:51:481:51:52

companionship a cat can bring, it is

really valuable for them.

What are

1:51:521:51:56

your cats called?

My cat is Jack.

Mine is Clara.

One each. Is there

1:51:561:52:04

any rivalry?

Well, we share them so

it is not like one has one cat and

1:52:041:52:12

one has the other. We like to share

them.

But secretly, Alex, do you

1:52:121:52:17

think Clara is better than Jack?

No.

Konta?

No, I think they are both

1:52:171:52:25

lovely. If you come home from school

and you have had a bad day, they

1:52:251:52:29

will chew you up, come and find you

-- Connor? They will always, comfort

1:52:291:52:33

you and give your affection.

People

animals don't believe that, they

1:52:331:52:43

don't believe that domestic pets can

actually work out what kind of mood

1:52:431:52:46

you're in, what sort of day you have

had. Nathalie, can you tell them the

1:52:461:52:49

truth?

The absolutely can. Dogs and

cats are both very perceptive about

1:52:491:52:52

everything that goes on around them,

and we developed a strong bonds with

1:52:521:52:59

our animals as owners, your mood,

they can be thinking something is

1:52:591:53:05

not quite right and that is

unsettling for you and them, so

1:53:051:53:08

quite often they will seek out more

attention in those situations.

Which

1:53:081:53:11

is what -- which is what Rascal has

been doing?

Absolutely.

Sorry,

1:53:111:53:18

should not have mentioned his name.

He is settling down a bit now, but

1:53:181:53:22

wondering what the heck is going on.

Not his normal routine. How come

1:53:221:53:28

Wilma is so chilled?

She came into

us is astray, she had been

1:53:281:53:32

wondering. So she has obviously seen

a lot of different things. Today is

1:53:321:53:36

quite a big day for her, all very

unusual, so she is building a bond

1:53:361:53:41

with me, sticking with me a bit more

further reassurance, because it is

1:53:411:53:44

all a bit new and different, and I

think the thing we see especially

1:53:441:53:50

with rescue animals going into their

new homes, having come into rescue

1:53:501:53:53

environments, going in to build that

new bond with that one on, or

1:53:531:53:57

multiple owners, whatever the case

may be, going into that new family,

1:53:571:54:01

they do create a lasting bond with

those people and think it makes a

1:54:011:54:10

massive bond for them as animals.

Some come into us the absolutely no

1:54:101:54:14

fault of their own, very happy dogs

and cats, and others perhaps have

1:54:141:54:16

gone through some hard times, but

they still never fail to build that

1:54:161:54:21

bond and trust people again,

regardless of what has happened to

1:54:211:54:24

them. And I think as much as they

need us, they definitely help us as

1:54:241:54:30

well, in many ways.

Yes. So the

figures out today show that millions

1:54:301:54:35

and millions and millions of us in

Britain still have a domestic pet,

1:54:351:54:42

but the number of UK households with

a fish, dogs, rabbits, guinea pigs,

1:54:421:54:47

a cat, it is declining, but only a

little bit. Why do you think that

1:54:471:54:52

might be?

Certainly we see a lot of

dogs and cats coming in because

1:54:521:54:56

owners are moving house. They are in

rented accommodation and it is

1:54:561:55:00

harder and harder to find

accommodation that will allow pets.

1:55:001:55:03

A lot of older people who have had

dogs or cats all of their life, they

1:55:031:55:07

might be going into, you know,

retirement properties, going into

1:55:071:55:13

different places, different

accommodation, and they can't take

1:55:131:55:16

their pets with them, or going into

hospital and can't take their

1:55:161:55:19

animals with them, so a lot come

into us because of this problem with

1:55:191:55:23

housing and accommodation, which is

really hard because those people

1:55:231:55:28

love their animals a lot, and it is

hard on them.

Did you go for cats

1:55:281:55:32

because you prefer cats over dogs

because you are out of the house all

1:55:321:55:35

day and it just didn't seem fair?

We

love dogs. I think the boys would

1:55:351:55:40

have loved that but, yes, clearly

they need much more companionship

1:55:401:55:43

and attention and we are simply not

there enough.

Do you feed and change

1:55:431:55:49

the water and do all that stuff?

Yes. Well, yes.

Well, yes? Mm.

Much

1:55:491:55:58

of the time, unless we are out... Or

on holiday or something like that,

1:55:581:56:06

Karma would really love to come home

with you, Alex. -- Gaelic.

They sent

1:56:061:56:14

everything, if someone is a bit

anxious, give them a cuddle.

1:56:141:56:17

When I am on the house on my own

1:56:201:56:22

They sent everything,

if someone is a bit

1:56:221:56:24

anxious, give them a cuddle.

1:56:241:56:25

the cats are not that interested but

they will be there to greet and they

1:56:251:56:31

do love them very much.

Some

photographs and feedback from you

1:56:311:56:36

around the country. Andrea said we

adopted our Rag doll from Essex

1:56:361:56:41

after she was made homeless. She

fills our lives with so much

1:56:411:56:44

happiness and wakes us up every

morning by licking our faces. Tom,

1:56:441:56:51

Blue, aged six, simply the Best of

dogs. Siobhan has e-mailed in her

1:56:511:57:00

two boys, Levi the Cocker Spaniel

and Flash the guinea pig. I suffer

1:57:001:57:04

with fibro and these two really help

each day. Another one, beautiful

1:57:041:57:11

picture of my pet, King George. Hang

on... That was a snake! I've just

1:57:111:57:17

realised. He is almost 40 years old.

We have moved on from the snake now,

1:57:171:57:22

but he was 40 years old. Goodness

me. This picture is from Tricia,

1:57:221:57:27

this is my support dog Tokai. She is

my best friend, my carer, and my

1:57:271:57:36

reason to keep going, as I have MS

and diabetes. That is the thing. If

1:57:361:57:42

you are patient, if you have a

condition, then a pet... Obviously

1:57:421:57:46

pets need walking, dogs need

walking, so it is not an easy life,

1:57:461:57:50

you have a responsibility there.

Yes, we have a number of dogs that

1:57:501:57:55

go over to Chelsea Pensioners'

hospital every month and the joy

1:57:551:58:00

they bring to those people, they

take them for a little walks, we

1:58:001:58:02

have dogs we have re-homed to help

people with disabilities, to become

1:58:021:58:07

almost like assistance dogs, to get

trained up to carry out specific

1:58:071:58:11

tasks to help, and it is amazing how

wonderful they are.

OK, thanks to

1:58:111:58:16

all of you, especially Wilma and

Karma, who loves you, Alec, and the

1:58:161:58:26

Rascal. I appreciate all of your

time.

1:58:261:58:28

BBC Newsroom live is coming up next.

1:58:281:58:29

Thank you for your company today.

1:58:291:58:31

Have a good day.

1:58:311:58:32

He's going home this weekend

to tell his parents about us.

1:58:341:58:37

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