20/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


20/11/2017

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Transcript


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Hello, it's Monday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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welcome to the programme.

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Our top story today,

Robert Mugabe has an hour to resign

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as President of Zimbabwe or face

impeachment - he certainly showed no

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signs of resigning last night.

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The operation I have alluded to did

not amount to a threat to our well

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cherished constitutional order, nor

was it a challenge to my authority

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as head of state and government.

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We'll get reaction from some

of those who've been tortured

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by the Mugabe regime.

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Also on the programme -

punishment attacks featuring

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kneecapping or assaults

using anything from sledgehammers

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to electric drills are taking place

in this country right now.

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I walked to the place that they told

me to go and they were standing

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there. They showed me the gun and

told me to lie down on the floor.

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That was it.

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We'll find out why so-called

punishment attacks by paramilitaries

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are on the rise in Northern Ireland.

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And it's 70 years since the Queen

and Prince Phillip got married.

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It is their platinum anniversary

today.

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We'll look back at a

relationship which has been

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a constant in British life.

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Hello and welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am.

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Throughout the programme,

the latest breaking news

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and developing stories -

and as always really

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keen to hear from you -

do get in touch on all the stories

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we're talking about this morning.

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Our top story today,

Zimbabwe's president Robert Mugabe

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has less than an hour to resign,

before a 10 o'clock deadline

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set by his own party.

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He was removed as leader yesterday,

but in a rambling television address

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in which he was expected to resign

as president, he refused and instead

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insisted he would lead the party's

congress next month.

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Former allies have condemned

his decision and over

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the weekend huge street rallies

demanded his resignation.

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If he doesn't step down, his party,

Zanu-PF, says he will be impeached.

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The influential head of the war

veterans organisation said

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they would initiate legal action

in the High Court to

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remove President Mubabe.

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They also repeated their calls

for him to be impeached

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and for further protests, including

a sit-in to force him to resign.

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He went on national television

to pretend as if everything

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is normal and he said he would be

attending his party congress.

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We are saying, Mugabe, go now.

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Mugabe, go now.

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Your time is up.

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Please leave State House and let

the country start on a new page.

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You should have the dignity

and decency to spare the country

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further turmoil by simply

announcing your

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departure immediately.

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If he can't, and this is the call

we are doing and repeating again

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from when we came here on Thursday

last week, we are bringing back the

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people of Zimbabwe to the streets.

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You will then have to settle these

issues with the people of Zimbabwe.

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Ben Brown is in the

Zimbabwean capital Harare.

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Are you getting any sense of what

might happen in an hour, if

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anything?

I am not getting a sense

that he is going to resign. Until we

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hear it from his mouth, no one will

believe he is going to resign.

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Everyone was expecting him to resign

last night after his own party,

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Zanu-PF, had sacked him as their

leader, after the military had had

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their takeover here, and after

seeing thousands of people on the

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streets here in Harare on Saturday.

So much pressure from the people,

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from the Army, from his own party to

resign. Everyone thought he would

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last night, and then he didn't. He

is nothing if not stubborn. He is

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the world's oldest head of state, 93

years of age, and still technically

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president of this country although

extraordinarily, he is still under

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house arrest. So the impeachment

process will begin if he continues

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to refuse to resign. In the

parliament behind me in Harare, it

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would need both chambers of

parliament to agree with a two

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thirds majority to impeach him. I

was talking to one MP this morning

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who said that that could take weeks

or even months, and that means Mr

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Mugabe could still be president in

2018.

And in the meantime, the

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citizens of Zimbabwe today where

industry is over the weekend -- they

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were on the streets. What are they

doing today?

It is fair to say they

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are disappointed. They watched that

TV address in their millions. They

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were expecting him to resign. Almost

everybody you talk to want him to

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go. It is almost impossible to find

anyone who wants him to stay. So

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they are disappointed and angry. Let

me show you just one newspaper front

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page from this morning. " Arrogant

Mugabe disregards Zanu-PF". That is

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just a flavour of how people are

thinking. There has been a call for

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another big demonstration on the

streets tomorrow. Maybe we will see

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thousands more people calling for Mr

Mugabe to resign, but frankly, he

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doesn't listen to the people and I

don't think you will make any

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difference.

Thank you, Ben.

Obviously, as things continue to

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change in Harare, we will be their

live for much of the morning,

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talking to residents of Zimbabwe and

we will of course be there at ten

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o'clock when that deadline passes.

Let me bring you this news. Jana

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Novotna has died. She was Wimbledon

champion in 1998. She was just 49.

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Here is the statement. After a long

battle with cancer, Jana Novotna

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died peacefully, surrounded by

friends and family in her native

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Czech Republic. She has died aged

49. She had cancer. More on that to

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come in the sport in a few moments.

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Now a summary of the rest

of the day's news.

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Germany is on the cusp

of a political crisis

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following the collapse of talks over

the formation of a

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coalition government.

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Eight weeks of negotiations

following September's general

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election have collapsed,

with the centrist Free

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Democrats pulling out.

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Angela Merkel will meet

the German President

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who could call a new election.

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Police say there were no injuries

to suggest "any other person

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was involved" in the death

of the missing teenager Gaia Pope.

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The 19-year-old's body was found

on Saturday in a field near Swanage,

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11 days after she was last seen.

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Dorset Police are treating her death

as "unexplained" pending

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toxicology results.

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Women are being advised to sleep

on their side in the last three

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months of pregnancy to avoid having

a stillborn baby.

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A study of just over 1,000 women

found the risk doubles if women go

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to sleep on their backs,

but researchers say

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women should not worry

if they are on their back

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when they wake up.

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The study authors estimate that

about 130 babies' lives a year

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could be saved if this advice

was followed.

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MPs are calling for a crackdown

on the so-called "gig economy".

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Delivery riders and minicab drivers

for firms like Deliveroo and Uber

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are being exploited by loopholes

in employment law, according

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to two committees of MPs.

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They say they face an "unacceptable

burden" of having to prove

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they are "workers",

rather than self-employed.

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The Government says it's already

considering the findings of a review

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of working practices.

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The convicted cult

leader Charles Manson -

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who orchestrated a series

of notorious murders in the 1960s -

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has died in prison in

California at the age of 83.

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In 1969, members of his group killed

seven people including

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the actress Sharon Tate,

wife of the film director,

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Roman Polanski.

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Manson himself was initially

sentenced to death, before

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the penalty was abolished

in California.

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Church leaders across

Northern Ireland have released

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a statement condemning so-called

"punishment" attacks

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by paramilitaries.

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They can take the form

of kneecappings, where victims

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are shot in the legs,

or serious beatings

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with weapons like iron bars.

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They've been declining

in recent years, but saw

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an increase of 30% last year.

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You can watch our report including

exclusive interviews with two

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teenagers who were shot in the knees

by paramilitaries, coming

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up in a few minutes.

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The Queen and Duke

of Edinburgh are today

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marking their 70th wedding

anniversary - the longest

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in the royal family's history.

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They will celebrate the occasion

privately with family

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and friends at Windsor Castle.

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Our royal correspondent

Sarah Campbell reports.

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In the gloom of post-war Britain,

their marriage was, in the words

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of Winston Churchill,

a flash of colour.

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He was the dashing naval officer,

she the future Queen.

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In the 70 years since,

theirs has proved to be

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a relationship which has truly stood

the test of time.

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It's worked because their

personalities and their characters

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complement one another.

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They're quite different,

in many ways, but Prince Philip

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is the first to make the Queen laugh

uproariously, and is probably

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the only person who can also

tell her to shut up.

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Pictured in 1939, 18-year-old Philip

first caught Princess Elizabeth's

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eye on a visit to Dartmouth Naval

College.

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It was the beginning

of a friendship which grew

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into a lifelong partnership.

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The Queen has referred to him

as her strength and stay.

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The Duke remarked that

tolerance is essential

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to any happy marriage,

and the Queen, he added,

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has that quality in abundance.

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70 years after the royal couple

exchanged their vows here,

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the bells of Westminster Abbey

will peal for more than three

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hours in their honour.

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These images have been released

by the Palace to mark the couple's

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milestone anniversary.

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The Queen and Prince Philip

will celebrate at a private party

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at Windsor Castle this evening.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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There are a couple of lines coming

out of Zimbabwe, according to the

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Reuters news agency. They don't

necessarily make the situation

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clearer. According to senior

political sources, Robert Mugabe's

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speech last night was intended to

make clear that the military

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intervention last week was not a

clue. -- it was not a coup. Mr

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Mugabe was supposed to say that in

his speech. The second line is that

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Robert Mugabe had agreed to resign,

but Zanu-PF, his party, did not want

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him to step down in front of the

generals. That is according to

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senior political sources talking to

the Reuters news agency. As I said,

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that does not necessarily make the

situation clearer. Does that suggest

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that at ten o'clock, when this

imposed deadline reaches us, he will

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step down if the generals are not

the picture? Stay tuned, and we will

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try to bring the latest. Let me

bring you these comments about

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punishment attacks, which are on the

rise in Northern Ireland and a lot

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of the victims are under 25, some

including children. And we are

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talking predominantly about boys

being shot in the back of the knee

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as punishment for petty crime, for

stealing a car, for drug dealing.

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Inclusive 2017 says young teenage

boys are being maimed. Politicians

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fail to act. In Northern Ireland, we

need a strategy to end violence

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against men and boys. We are beaten,

shot and assaulted daily. Another

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says, these brutal attacks on young

people need to stop. The

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victimisation needs to stop. These

young people need a chance in life.

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This is abuse and it is child abuse.

Our film on that is coming up. If

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you are getting in touch, you are

very welcome.

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Let's get some sport with Jessica.

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Sad news from the world

of tennis this morning?

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Yes, we have had it confirmed in the

last half-hour that the former

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Wimbledon champion Jana Novotna has

died aged 49. We have a statement

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from the women's tennis Association,

the WTA. They say "It is with deep

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sadness that we announce the passing

on Sunday of Yana Novotna, the

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former WTA world number one and

number two singles champion. After a

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long battle with cancer, Jana died

peacefully, surrounded by her family

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in her native Czech Republic. The

CEO of the WTA, Steve Simon, said

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Jana was an inspiration both on and

off court to anyone who had the

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opportunity to know her. Her star

will always shine brightly in the

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history of the WTA. It goes on to

say "Our condolences and our

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thoughts are with Jana's family"

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say "Our condolences and our

thoughts are with Jana's family".

It

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was 1998 when she won Wimbledon and

lots of people will remember her

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reaction afterwards.

Yes. She will

be well known to British tennis

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fans. She captured the hearts of

many when she burst into tears after

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losing to the German great Steffi

Graf in 1993, she was consoled by

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the Duchess of Kent. She was

renowned for her serve in the volley

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game and achieve a career-high

singles ranking of number two. She

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was twice a beaten finalist, in 1993

and 1997. But a year later, it was

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third time lucky for Novotna. Of her

career, she won 24 singles titles in

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14 years on the professional

circuit, along with 76 doubles

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titles. And she was inducted into

the tennis hall of fame in 2005. But

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it is sad news from the world of

tennis that Jana Novotna has died

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after a battle with cancer, aged 49.

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They're a legacy of decades

in conflict in Northern Ireland -

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so-called "punishment" attacks

by paramilitaries, usually

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kneecappings or serious beatings

using anything from an iron bar

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to an electric drill.

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Those responsible claim it's a way

of clamping down on crime

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and anti-social behaviour

in their community.

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If you deal drugs, for instance,

you face being kneecapped.

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And now, after a period of decline,

these attacks are on the rise,

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with a 30% increase over

the last year.

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Almost half of those

targeted are 25 or under.

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Today, church leaders

across Northern Ireland have

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for the first time

released a statement

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condemning the threat

against young people,

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timed to coincide with the United

Nations Universal Children's Day.

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This programme has spoken

exclusively to two teenagers

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about their experience of being shot

by paramilitaries and to the PSNI

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officers leading the fight

against the attacks.

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Some of the details

in Greg Dawson's report are graphic

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from the very beginning

and you may not want

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young children to hear.

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Police have just released details

of what they believe

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was a paramilitary-style attack

on a teenager in Londonderry just

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after midnight yesterday morning...

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...After being shot in the legs

at their home in west Belfast.

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It happened just

after six o'clock...

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...The vicim's injuries aren't

believed to be life-threatening.

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I walked to the place,

and they told me to go,

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and they were standing there.

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They showed me the gun and told me

to lie down on the floor.

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That was it.

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The first time they shot me,

I only moved a bit, but see

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the second time they shot me,

I was screaming.

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It went right through

and hit my main artery,

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busted my whole kneebone.

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A 17-year-old boy has been shot

in the leg after two masked men...

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It's an enormous human rights abuse,

whatever the age of the person,

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but it's happening a lot

against young people and children.

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If you speak to young

people in the communities,

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I think they'll tell

you there is a climate

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of fear for them.

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We have a choice here,

this doesn't need to be

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the future of our children.

0:17:310:17:36

Belfast is a city that

prides itself on its progress.

0:17:490:17:53

From the darkest depths

of the Troubles, it has emerged

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as one of the UK's most

popular tourist destinations.

0:17:560:18:04

But in small pockets of this city,

there are many communities

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still living with the legacy

of Northern Ireland's

0:18:070:18:08

division and violence.

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Many of the recent victims

of paramilitary threats and attacks

0:18:100:18:13

will have little memory

of the Good Friday Agreement.

0:18:130:18:16

Some were born long after it.

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We've come out with the Police

Service of Northern Ireland's

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new task force, set up specifically

to tackle paramilitaries,

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the armed groups active in both

Protestant loyalist areas

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and Catholic republican communities.

0:18:350:18:38

We're leaving the Lower Shankill

and we're going to go

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in from a loyalist...

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...the nationalist Catholic area.

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But certain paramilitary groups

still see it as their role to police

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these communities and crack down

on what they judge to be

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anti-social behaviour.

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Even in 2017, the self appointed men

in charge assert control

0:18:560:18:59

with baseball bats and bullets.

0:18:590:19:01

We've spoken to two young victims

of paramilitary-style attacks.

0:19:010:19:06

James and Thomas, not their real

names, were shot in the legs.

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For their safety, we've hidden

their faces and voiced their words.

0:19:100:19:18

They got in contact

with someone in the family.

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They told me I had

to go and meet them.

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I changed my trousers,

went out of my house

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and went to the pub.

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I had two pints and I got a text

message that I had to go,

0:19:270:19:31

so I walked over on my own,

and that was it.

0:19:310:19:33

I walked to the place

and they told me to go,

0:19:330:19:36

and they were standing there.

0:19:360:19:37

They showed me the gun and told me

to lie down on the floor.

0:19:370:19:41

That was it.

0:19:410:19:44

How did you feel when you were

making that walk over from the pub?

0:19:440:19:48

I was scared, of

course I was scared.

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I was fearing for my life,

in case they did something else.

0:19:500:19:53

Someone who was really,

really close to me was first

0:19:530:19:56

out because they knew

I was getting shot.

0:19:560:19:58

They brought out a pillow,

and then the ambulance came.

0:19:580:20:02

The first time they shot me,

I only moved a bit.

0:20:020:20:05

But, see, the second time

they shot me, I was screaming.

0:20:050:20:11

It went right through

and hit my main artery.

0:20:110:20:14

Busted my whole kneebone,

know what I mean?

0:20:140:20:16

I couldn't even move my leg.

0:20:160:20:20

There ended up being loads of people

around me and I asked

0:20:200:20:23

someone for a fag, and then

I just went blank.

0:20:230:20:25

And all I remember was just waking

up in the ambulance.

0:20:250:20:33

These paramilitary-style attacks may

have been happening in certain

0:20:330:20:35

communities in Northern Ireland

for decades, but after a fall

0:20:350:20:38

in recent years, the numbers

are creeping back up.

0:20:380:20:44

In 2016-2017, there were 94 reported

casualties of shootings

0:20:440:20:47

and assaults, that's up 30%

on the previous year.

0:20:470:20:51

Attacks are currently

at their highest level since 2010,

0:20:510:20:55

and, since 2009, 47% of attacks

targeted people aged 25 and under.

0:20:550:21:02

The actions of these paramilitary

groups range from everything

0:21:020:21:07

from threats to individuals,

either in person or by proxy,

0:21:070:21:10

up to beatings, and right up

to the end of the scale which can

0:21:100:21:15

include serious assault, shootings,

and, on occasion, has resulted

0:21:150:21:17

in the murder of individuals.

0:21:170:21:19

This 15-year-old from Londonderry

is a recent victim.

0:21:190:21:20

In June, he was beaten with iron

bars, including this one that

0:21:200:21:24

officers in Derry recovered.

0:21:240:21:29

Paul Smith is a youth worker and has

devoted years to campaigning

0:21:290:21:32

and speaking out against attacks.

0:21:320:21:36

There isn't any due process

involved, nobody appears in front

0:21:360:21:39

of a court and can defend

themselves, and a lot of the victims

0:21:390:21:42

end up being traumatised

for the rest of their lives.

0:21:420:21:46

One of the hallmarks

of these attacks is that

0:21:460:21:50

many of the victims

know it is coming.

0:21:500:21:53

They're often given notice

to attend an appointment.

0:21:530:21:56

Last month, this flyer was posted

through doors in West Belfast.

0:21:560:21:59

It lists the names of 14 men accused

of selling drugs and orders them

0:21:590:22:03

to come forward to the Republican

movement, adding that failure to do

0:22:030:22:06

so could result in execution.

0:22:060:22:11

In some cases, parents of victims

are faced with a dreadful dilemma -

0:22:110:22:14

protect their child,

or hand them over to paramilitary

0:22:140:22:17

groups for appointments.

0:22:170:22:22

See, I used to be a happy child,

always up and bouncing.

0:22:220:22:25

Then I did one or two bad things,

and they were just picking

0:22:250:22:28

on me and picking on me.

0:22:280:22:29

I was trying to change my life

around and they were

0:22:290:22:32

still picking on me.

0:22:320:22:33

They put me out of the country,

and then my mummy visited me

0:22:330:22:36

and said, "Listen, I've been talking

to someone to try and sort it out.

0:22:360:22:39

To get someone to give

you an easy shooting."

0:22:390:22:41

I put my shoes on straight

away and I said, "Yes,

0:22:410:22:44

let's get it over and done with."

0:22:440:22:46

So I put my shoes on and straight

to Belfast, right?

0:22:460:22:48

Just talk me through

the day that it happened.

0:22:480:22:50

I was told to walk up the street,

and I looked behind me

0:22:500:22:54

and two men were there.

0:22:540:22:58

I turned round and I said to them,

"There are ten times as many people

0:22:580:23:01

out there doing worse than me,"

and he just said, "Listen, kid,

0:23:010:23:04

I'll look after you."

0:23:040:23:05

How is that looking after you?

0:23:050:23:10

I think people are appalled when

they hear about parents bringing

0:23:100:23:13

their kids for appointments.

0:23:130:23:15

But I feel deeply sorry for those

people, I think that they have

0:23:150:23:18

reached a point where they feel

they really have no option.

0:23:180:23:21

And, in one incident recently,

a couple who tried to intervene

0:23:210:23:24

to protect their child

was shot themselves.

0:23:240:23:31

Injuries sustained in an attack may

not be life-threatening,

0:23:310:23:33

but more often than not

they are life-changing.

0:23:330:23:35

We've spoken to a surgeon

in the city who told us often

0:23:350:23:39

the beatings are more brutal

than the shootings,

0:23:390:23:41

with paramilitaries using everything

from iron bars to sledgehammers,

0:23:410:23:43

and even electric drills.

0:23:430:23:48

You were shot in the legs.

0:23:480:23:49

Just give us an idea

of how that actually felt?

0:23:490:23:54

It's a burning sensation for, like,

two minutes straight,

0:23:540:23:57

then it stopped for 30 seconds.

0:23:570:23:58

Then it started again.

0:23:580:24:00

It was burning and burning,

you know what I mean?

0:24:000:24:05

See, when I'm playing Xbox,

my whole leg locks up.

0:24:050:24:08

I get pains every single day.

0:24:080:24:09

It's like shooting pains.

0:24:090:24:11

But it's not just the physical

scars that do the damage.

0:24:110:24:16

Campaigners say often attacks can

lead to devastating mental

0:24:160:24:19

health consequences.

0:24:190:24:22

I know of several examples

where young people have been shot

0:24:220:24:25

or beaten by paramilitary

organisations, and within

0:24:250:24:27

a matter of weeks they've

taken their own lives.

0:24:270:24:29

So it's an awful, it's a double

tragedy for families,

0:24:290:24:31

and it's a terrible toll

that our society's taking

0:24:310:24:34

for this ongoing problem.

0:24:340:24:41

I had depression already,

but now it's far, far worse.

0:24:410:24:44

I've been going to the doctors,

seeing psychiatrists.

0:24:440:24:46

Before this I was just like a stupid

kid, know what I mean?

0:24:460:24:50

Other people were doing far

worse, stealing cars,

0:24:500:24:53

burning this and that.

0:24:530:24:54

I didn't do anything that bad.

0:24:540:24:57

I've had very bad depression,

everything you can think

0:24:570:24:59

of, know what I mean?

0:24:590:25:01

I couldn't leave the house.

0:25:010:25:02

I was sitting in the house

every single day.

0:25:020:25:04

I'm not scared of violence,

I'm just scared because of what's

0:25:040:25:07

going through my head

because of the depression.

0:25:070:25:09

I've actually lost count of how many

times I've tried to kill myself.

0:25:090:25:12

I've sliced my arms.

0:25:120:25:14

Sometimes it's been a cry for help,

but a few times I really,

0:25:140:25:17

really did want to kill myself.

0:25:170:25:20

The last time, I was in my bathroom,

and I waited until everyone

0:25:200:25:28

was asleep, and I tried to hang

myself, but my mummy must have been

0:25:280:25:31

listening, know what I mean?

0:25:310:25:33

She busted the door

and I just dropped.

0:25:330:25:34

My eyes were in the back of my head,

and I looked dead and all.

0:25:340:25:38

I heard my mummy was shouting,

"He's dead, he's dead!"

0:25:380:25:40

Then I just woke up and came

to and was like, "What's

0:25:400:25:43

wrong, what's wrong?"

0:25:430:25:44

The police may be determined

to prevent these attacks

0:25:440:25:47

and punish those responsible,

but they face enormous obstacles.

0:25:470:25:52

Victims who are too scared or simply

just refuse to name the culprits

0:25:520:25:55

because of a stigma of so-called

touting, the nickname

0:25:550:25:57

for talking to officers.

0:25:570:26:00

It all means only around

4% of attacks result

0:26:000:26:02

in charges being brought.

0:26:020:26:05

For people who would be

surprised by that figure,

0:26:050:26:07

can you explain why it is so low?

0:26:070:26:11

Well, it's down to a number

of factors, one of the biggest

0:26:110:26:13

issues is the noncooperation

of the victims, and I think that's

0:26:130:26:16

understandable in circumstances

where people have already been

0:26:160:26:18

beaten or shot.

0:26:180:26:20

The fear of engagement

with the police and what that might

0:26:200:26:22

lead to in terms of the party that

were responsible for the initial

0:26:220:26:26

attack clearly is something that

would inhibit their wanting to get

0:26:260:26:28

involved with the police.

0:26:280:26:30

At the same time, these groups

are sophisticated in terms of how

0:26:300:26:36

they go about carrying out these

attacks, they're very careful

0:26:360:26:38

to make sure they're done in areas

where they won't have witnesses,

0:26:380:26:41

where there won't be the likes

of CCTV, and many of the groups are,

0:26:410:26:44

as well, forensically aware.

0:26:440:26:46

When the police came to you,

they must have asked

0:26:460:26:48

you, "Do you know who did this?"

0:26:480:26:50

What did you tell the police?

0:26:500:26:51

Of course I can't say,

because that's touting.

0:26:510:26:53

You'd be scared to tell the police?

0:26:530:26:55

Not scared, I just wouldn't.

0:26:550:26:56

Round those areas,

it counts as touting,

0:26:560:26:58

and you don't want to be a tout.

0:26:580:26:59

The paramilitaries come back

and shoot you for that, too.

0:26:590:27:02

Worse, they'd shoot you dead.

0:27:020:27:06

But there's another obstacle.

0:27:060:27:08

It's been labelled the societal

shrug, where many in these

0:27:080:27:11

communities see a paramilitary-style

attack as an imperfect but necessary

0:27:110:27:13

solution to crack down on crime

and anti-social behaviour

0:27:130:27:16

in their neighbourhood.

0:27:160:27:19

What would you say to people

who would say, well,

0:27:190:27:21

you were hurt in a punishment

attack, you must have done something

0:27:210:27:24

wrong to deserve this?

0:27:240:27:30

Aye, I did do wrong, yeah,

but I was punished for that

0:27:300:27:32

through a court of law.

0:27:320:27:34

I didn't need to be punished

by gangsters in the street.

0:27:340:27:36

I was punished for what I did.

0:27:360:27:38

There was no need

for them to shoot me.

0:27:380:27:40

A court of law is for punishment.

0:27:400:27:43

It shouldn't be overlooked

that the numbers of these attacks

0:27:430:27:46

has drastically reduced

since the height of the Troubles

0:27:460:27:48

here, but campaigners

believe more could be done

0:27:480:27:50

to eradicate them altogether.

0:27:500:27:53

Finding a political solution has

become even more of a challenge

0:27:530:27:56

since the power-sharing agreement

between the DUP and Sinn Fein

0:27:560:27:58

collapsed in January,

leading to deadlock here

0:27:580:28:00

at the Stormont Assembly.

0:28:000:28:06

Beyond doubt there is an attempt

by some of these paramilitary groups

0:28:060:28:09

to continue to exert

their influence within communities.

0:28:090:28:11

I think this is one area

where they see a degree of populism,

0:28:110:28:14

and they think it's a way

in which they can re-establish

0:28:140:28:17

or promote their legitimacy

within communities, and obviously

0:28:170:28:19

from my perspective I am absolutely

committed to denying them any

0:28:190:28:22

potential oxygen in that respect.

0:28:220:28:27

I can remember every

bit of what happened,

0:28:270:28:29

it repeats in my mind all the time.

0:28:290:28:31

My mental health issues,

it's made them worse.

0:28:310:28:35

I'm still young, I should be

enjoying myself in bars,

0:28:350:28:38

and now I'm scared to go out.

0:28:380:28:40

I won't leave the house

unless I have family

0:28:400:28:42

or friends with me.

0:28:420:28:43

This has changed my life.

0:28:430:28:46

Greg Dawson reporting.

0:28:510:28:53

After 10am, we'll hear from someone

who mediates between paramilitary

0:28:530:28:56

groups who carry out these so called

punishment beatings

0:28:560:28:58

and the community.

0:28:580:28:59

Thank you for your comments.le Jamie

says, "This has been a curse of

0:28:590:29:03

Belfast life. I used to not being

able to walk down the street without

0:29:030:29:08

seeing an otherwise fit young man on

crutches." Patricia says, "These

0:29:080:29:14

young people are drug dealers or

joyriders who don't care what they

0:29:140:29:19

do do others. They know if they are

found out, what are the

0:29:190:29:25

consequences." Another viewer says,

"If the PSNI don't do their job,

0:29:250:29:31

these people will take it upon

themselves to issue punishments.

0:29:310:29:34

Sometimes you think to yourself well

if they didn't deal the drugs or rob

0:29:340:29:39

grannies then they wouldn't have had

their knees blown off."

0:29:390:29:45

Still to come, Robert Mugabe's party

has given him half an hour

0:29:450:29:48

to stand down as president.

0:29:480:29:49

What happens if he doesn't?

0:29:490:29:51

We'll bring you the latest analysis.

0:29:510:29:52

We will speak to those who suffered

at the hands of President Mugabe's

0:29:520:29:56

regime.

0:29:560:29:58

70 years ago to the day, the Queen

and Prince Phillip got married.

0:29:580:30:01

We'll take a look back

at their lives together

0:30:010:30:03

and speak to another couple,

also celebrating their platinum

0:30:030:30:05

wedding anniversary.

0:30:050:30:11

Time for the latest

news, here's Rebecca.

0:30:110:30:13

The BBC News headlines this morning.

0:30:130:30:16

A deadline set by Zimbabwe's ruling

party for President Robert Mugabe

0:30:160:30:19

to resign or face impeachment

runs out shortly.

0:30:190:30:21

In a speech to the nation last

night, Mr Mugabe made it clear it

0:30:210:30:24

he had no intention of stepping

down.

0:30:240:30:33

The influential head of the war

veterans organisation said they

0:30:330:30:37

would initiate legal action in the

High Court to remove President

0:30:370:30:40

Mugabe, and called for further

protests, including a sit-in to

0:30:400:30:44

force him to resign.

0:30:440:30:47

The German President Frank-Walter

Steinmeier is to hold crisis talks

0:30:470:30:50

with Chancellor Angela Merkel,

after her failed attempt to forge

0:30:500:30:52

a coalition cast doubts

over her political future.

0:30:520:30:56

The centrist Free Democrats pulled

out of talks late last night,

0:30:560:30:59

blaming irreconcilable differences

with Mrs Merkel's Christian

0:30:590:31:00

Democrats and the other party

in the talks, the Greens.

0:31:000:31:07

Talks have been going on for eight

weeks following September's

0:31:070:31:09

general election.

0:31:090:31:12

Police say there were no injuries

to suggest "any other person

0:31:120:31:21

was involved" in the death

of the missing teenager Gaia Pope.

0:31:210:31:24

The 19-year-old's body was found

on Saturday in a field near Swanage,

0:31:240:31:27

11 days after she was last seen.

0:31:270:31:29

Dorset Police are treating her death

as "unexplained" pending

0:31:290:31:31

toxicology results.

0:31:310:31:32

The convicted cult

leader Charles Manson -

0:31:320:31:36

who orchestrated a series

of notorious murders in the 1960s -

0:31:360:31:39

has died in prison in

California at the age of 83.

0:31:390:31:44

In 1969, members of his group killed

seven people including

0:31:440:31:47

the actress Sharon Tate,

wife of the film director,

0:31:470:31:49

Roman Polanski.

0:31:490:31:51

Manson himself was initially

sentenced to death, before

0:31:510:31:53

the penalty was abolished

in California.

0:31:530:32:02

Women are being advised to sleep

on their side in the last three

0:32:020:32:05

months of pregnancy to avoid having

a stillborn baby.

0:32:050:32:09

A study of just over 1,000 women

found the risk doubles if women go

0:32:090:32:12

to sleep on their backs

but researchers say

0:32:120:32:14

women should not worry

if they are on their back

0:32:140:32:16

when they wake up.

0:32:160:32:18

The study authors estimate that

about 130 babies' lives a year

0:32:180:32:21

could be saved if this advice

was followed.

0:32:210:32:26

The Queen and Prince Philip

are celebrating their 70th

0:32:260:32:29

wedding anniversary today -

the longest in the Royal

0:32:290:32:35

family's history.

0:32:350:32:38

The occasion is being marked

with a new series of portraits,

0:32:380:32:41

a set of stamps and a private party

for the Royal Family

0:32:410:32:44

at Windsor Castle.

0:32:440:32:45

The church's bells of Westminster

Abbey, where they married,

0:32:450:32:47

will ring for more than three hours

to mark the occasion.

0:32:470:32:51

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

0:32:510:32:56

Here's some sport now with Jessica.

0:32:560:33:01

As you have been reporting, sad news

from the world of tennis and you can

0:33:010:33:05

bring some of the tributes being

paid to Jana Novotna.

Yes, it has

0:33:050:33:11

been confirmed this morning that the

former Wimbledon champion Jana

0:33:110:33:14

Novotna has died aged 49. Our tennis

correspondent Russell Fuller joins

0:33:140:33:19

me now. She will be well known to

British tennis fans, but most

0:33:190:33:24

remembered perhaps for crying after

losing the Wimbledon final in 1993?

0:33:240:33:31

Yes, in many ways, that will be the

abiding memory of Jana Novotna

0:33:310:33:34

amongst British fans. She couldn't

help but share her emotion after

0:33:340:33:41

losing the Wimbledon final to Steffi

Graf in 1993. It was Jana Novotna's

0:33:410:33:47

first Wimbledon final. The great

Steffi Graf was her opponent.

0:33:470:33:50

Novotna was in a winning position,

but Steffi Graf came back to win and

0:33:500:33:53

when she received her runners-up

trophy from the Duchess of Kent, the

0:33:530:33:57

Duchess literally provided her with

a shoulder to cry on. She was back

0:33:570:34:01

in the final four years later,

losing to Martina Hingis. The

0:34:010:34:05

Duchess of Kent then said to her, if

you come back and make the final

0:34:050:34:08

again, I'm sure it will be third

time lucky, and so it proved. She

0:34:080:34:13

came back in 1998 and this time,

Jana Novotna was victorious. She won

0:34:130:34:18

her one and only Wimbledon singles

title.

And incredible career, 24

0:34:180:34:24

titles that she won during her

career, inducted into the hall of

0:34:240:34:30

fame in 2005. How do you think she

will be remembered?

Those titles

0:34:300:34:36

were just that singles level. She

was a wonderful doubles player as

0:34:360:34:39

well. She won a number of doubles

titles. 16 Grand Slam doubles

0:34:390:34:46

titles. She was a serve and volley.

She was a very athletic player. She

0:34:460:34:51

won the team competition for her

country, the Czech Republic. She won

0:34:510:34:55

Olympic medals in singles and

doubles. She was number one in the

0:34:550:34:59

world in doubles, number two in the

world in singles. We had the

0:34:590:35:02

privilege of sharing a commentary

box with her at Wimbledon in recent

0:35:020:35:05

years. She was never ostentatious in

her delivery, but you could see her

0:35:050:35:11

passion for the sport, her love of

the game and the way the players

0:35:110:35:15

conducted the points.

Russell, thank

you. That is all the sport for now.

0:35:150:35:24

Confirmation again that the former

Wimbledon champion Jana Novotna has

0:35:240:35:28

died aged 49.

0:35:280:35:32

Welcome to the programme.

0:35:320:35:33

As things stand right now -

Robert Mugabe is still

0:35:330:35:36

Zimbabwe's President -

despite a warning that he'll be

0:35:360:35:38

impeached and removed

by his own party unless he resigns

0:35:380:35:40

in just under half an hour's time.

0:35:400:35:44

He didn't step down last night,

as many expected, as many hoped,

0:35:440:35:48

even though his own party have

sacked him as leader; instead

0:35:480:35:52

he said he intended to chair

the party's congress next month.

0:35:520:36:01

The Congress is due in a few weeks

from now. I will preside over its

0:36:010:36:09

processes, which must not be

pre-possessed by any act is

0:36:090:36:15

calculated to undermine it or to

compromise the outcomes in the eyes

0:36:150:36:24

of the public.

0:36:240:36:26

Robert Mugabe's grip on power

weakened big time since the army

0:36:260:36:29

intervened on Wednesday,

in a row over who

0:36:290:36:30

should succeed him.

0:36:300:36:31

The crisis began two weeks ago

when the 93-year-old leader,

0:36:310:36:34

who's been in charge since 1980,

sacked his deputy Emmerson

0:36:340:36:37

Mnangagwa, angering army commanders

who saw it as an attempt

0:36:370:36:45

to position his wife

Grace as next president.

0:36:450:36:47

Since there have been huge street

raliies in the country,

0:36:470:36:57

demonstrations including

the country's influential

0:36:570:36:58

war veterans, all

demanding he step down.

0:36:580:37:00

Under his presidency,

he's overseen economic collapse,

0:37:000:37:05

rampant corruption and the brutal

oppression of anyone

0:37:050:37:07

who dared to criticise him.

0:37:070:37:17

Ishmael Kauzani joins us from Harare

- he was tortured numerous times

0:39:280:39:31

under Mugabe's regime.

0:39:310:39:32

Marcellina Chikasha

is also in Harare -

0:39:320:39:34

she's President of the opposition

African Democratic Party.

0:39:340:39:43

Ishmael, President Mugabe has 20

minutes before the deadline expires

0:39:430:39:51

to resign. Do you think he's going

to?

No, I don't. He's not going to

0:39:510:40:00

resign. He said last night, I'm

going to preside over the Zanu-PF

0:40:000:40:10

congress, so I don't see him

resigning.

What do you think will

0:40:100:40:14

happen, then?

For now, I can't say

anything. But as events are

0:40:140:40:28

unfolding, anything can happen. As

we speak right now, we are gathered

0:40:280:40:37

in the square where we are having

some prayers so that God might hear

0:40:370:40:40

our prayers and he might resign.

There are also other groups, the war

0:40:400:40:50

veterans and other social movements

who are planning some demonstrations

0:40:500:40:53

and sit-ins. They are planning to

march to the blue roof, his

0:40:530:41:02

residence. Anything can happen.

According to one Reuters witness,

0:41:020:41:09

students at the university of

Zimbabwe are not doing their exams,

0:41:090:41:12

or the exams have been postponed

today because students have started

0:41:120:41:16

chanting and singing songs against

resident Mugabe. I wonder if you can

0:41:160:41:23

tell our British audience how you

have been treated under his regime?

0:41:230:41:28

Mine is a long story. It started in

2000. For now, I can say I have been

0:41:280:41:42

arrested more than 130 times by

Mugabe's regime.

Why?

I was arrested

0:41:420:41:55

because I was a member of the MDC

and I am a human rights activist.

0:41:550:42:03

And MDC stands for the Movement for

Democratic Change, which is an

0:42:030:42:07

opposition party. And they

understand in 2008, your friend and

0:42:070:42:13

your brother were murdered by the

regime. Tell us what happened.

Yes.

0:42:130:42:22

It was on the 19th of April 2008

when I was abducted together with my

0:42:220:42:29

friend. We were taken away from

Harare to our place about 80

0:42:290:42:38

kilometres away, and we were beaten

and dumped in the mountains. I

0:42:380:42:47

sustained three broken ribs. My

friend had multiple fractures to the

0:42:470:42:55

league. We were rescued by the women

who were fetching firewood. Then we

0:42:550:43:08

were taken to a clinic and later

transferred to another clinic. I was

0:43:080:43:20

in hospital from the 20th of April

until the 5th of May, when I was

0:43:200:43:29

discharged. On the eighth, I planned

to leave Harare to go to South

0:43:290:43:36

Africa for further medication. I was

also running away because I felt my

0:43:360:43:51

life was in danger.

So you had to

get out. Let me bring in Marcellina.

0:43:510:44:02

Sorry, Ishmael. Marcellina, you are

the leader of an opposition party in

0:44:020:44:09

Zimbabwe. What do you think is going

to happen in the next 15 minutes? Do

0:44:090:44:14

you think Mugabe is going to resign?

I don't think he is going to resign

0:44:140:44:19

at all. He has proved that he's not

going be a pushover for anyone, and

0:44:190:44:26

he doesn't want to deliver this

presidency on a silver platter to

0:44:260:44:31

Emmerson Mnangagwa.

So what will

happen if he doesn't resign?

I am a

0:44:310:44:43

bit worried, because we could

descend into anarchy. These

0:44:430:44:48

demonstrations could get out of

hand. What people don't realise is

0:44:480:44:54

that, in as they are desperate to

get rid of Robert Mugabe, they have

0:44:540:45:05

joined the system that has always

oppressed them and they could just

0:45:050:45:09

be collateral damage. We need to

think about the citizens and the

0:45:090:45:14

best way forward for the country. If

the street protests and the marches

0:45:140:45:21

that are being proposed go on on

Wednesday, we could descend into

0:45:210:45:26

anarchy. That is something that

cannot be overlooked.

0:45:260:45:37

As I understand it most people out

on the streets, most of the army,

0:45:370:45:43

want President Mugabe to step down.

So everybody is on the same side?

0:45:430:45:48

Everyone is on the same side now,

but it only takes a moment for

0:45:480:45:53

people to realise that it's not

actually just Mugabe that they want

0:45:530:45:56

out, it's the system that they want

out. It's Zanu-PF they want out.

0:45:560:46:03

Depending what happens in the

situation and who takes advantage of

0:46:030:46:07

the situation, you know, it's just

fragile at the moment. I just think

0:46:070:46:12

that the army intervening in

civilian politics, you know, roping

0:46:120:46:18

people in, citizens to in to fight

their factional battles is not a

0:46:180:46:22

good place for a country to be.

Thank you very much for talking to

0:46:220:46:25

us.

That's the President of an

0:46:250:46:29

opposition party called the African

Democratic Party. Thank you for your

0:46:290:46:34

time. He was arrested over 100 times

since Robert Mugabe came into power

0:46:340:46:45

and he had to flee effectively for

his life. He had to save himself. He

0:46:450:46:50

had to flee to South Africa. We will

be live in Harare, of course, as we

0:46:500:46:57

reach that deadline at 10am.

0:46:570:47:00

On this day in 1947,

the Queen and Prince Philip got

0:47:010:47:03

married at Westminster Abbey.

0:47:030:47:04

They'd actually got engaged a year

earlier, but the Palace kept it

0:47:040:47:07

a secret until the then

Princess Elizabeth turned 21.

0:47:070:47:09

They'd first met when

the Queen was 13 years old.

0:47:090:47:12

And for the last 70 years,

their marriage has been

0:47:120:47:14

a constant in British life.

0:47:140:47:15

Here's how it all began.

0:47:150:47:19

# When you are in love

0:47:360:47:41

# It's the loveliest

night of the year...

0:47:410:47:47

The king and queen announce

the betrothal

0:47:520:47:53

of their

dearly beloved daughter,

0:47:530:47:57

the Princess Elizabeth,

to Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten.

0:47:570:48:02

I am so happy that on this,

my third visit,

0:48:020:48:05

my future husband is by my side.

0:48:050:48:12

Into the dull November morning, two

Greys draw the Irish State coach.

0:48:240:48:28

Inside, the Royal Highness Princess

Elizabeth and her father.

0:48:280:48:31

# ...it's the loveliest

night of the year

0:48:360:48:40

# When you are in love

0:48:400:48:45

# It's the loveliest

night of the year

0:48:450:48:53

# Stars twinkle above

0:48:530:49:00

# And you almost can

touch them from here

0:49:000:49:09

# Words fall into rhyme

0:49:090:49:15

# Any time you are holding me near

0:49:150:49:24

# When you are in love

0:49:240:49:25

# It's the loveliest

night of the year

0:49:250:49:34

Let's talk to the Queen's former

press secretary Dickie Arbiter.

0:49:500:49:53

Christopher Lee

is a royal historian.

0:49:530:49:56

Alun and Delphine Richards

are in Swansea and they celebrated

0:49:560:50:01

their 70th wedding anniversary

in June and got a card

0:50:010:50:03

from the Queen.

0:50:030:50:08

Welcome all of you. Thank you so

much. Dickie, you have seen this

0:50:080:50:13

relationship of the Queen and Prince

Philip's from close quarters. Give

0:50:130:50:17

us an insight into what they are

like together?

They are like pretty

0:50:170:50:21

much a normal married couple. The

fact that the Queen is head of state

0:50:210:50:24

and head of nation is neither here

nor there when they are sitting

0:50:240:50:29

across the table from one another. I

was there in the crowd watching the

0:50:290:50:34

procession and there was love and

adoration when they were driving

0:50:340:50:40

back from Westminster Abbey and that

exists today. They have got humour.

0:50:400:50:43

They've got affection for each

other. They have got chemistry.

I

0:50:430:50:47

can imagine him making her laugh.

Does she make him laugh?

Yes, she

0:50:470:50:51

does make him laugh. What you see in

public is the very different to the

0:50:510:50:55

person you see in private. They are

two people that are pretty much

0:50:550:50:59

wrapped up in each other, but they

give each other space. She has got a

0:50:590:51:03

job to do. He has got a role and

they allow each other to get on with

0:51:030:51:08

it, but when it's time to come

together they do come together.

0:51:080:51:13

Christopher, you believe their

marriage is symbolic of British

0:51:130:51:15

national identity. Explain?

Well,

one of the roles of the monarchy

0:51:150:51:23

apart from providing an heir is to

reflect identity of the nation and

0:51:230:51:28

it's not so much look at us this is

how you ought to behave, but it is

0:51:280:51:32

somehow they do reflect the feelings

of a nation. A nation feels quite

0:51:320:51:37

comfortable with the idea of a long

lived monarch. I think that what I

0:51:370:51:44

find intriguing without being sort

of damp about it, this is towards

0:51:440:51:47

the end of this long monarchy and

this long reflection of the nation.

0:51:470:51:55

If you go back to 1947 what it was

like then and right up to the

0:51:550:51:59

present day where the uncertainties

that we have now and I think that's

0:51:590:52:05

particularly important because when

you look at the, looking at Ascot

0:52:050:52:10

earlier this year and in all the

crisises that's going on throughout

0:52:100:52:13

the world and suddenly up came the

carriage and then there they were

0:52:130:52:18

waving, and suddenly, that seemed

right because it reflected another

0:52:180:52:23

side of the nation.

Let me brael in Alun and del fen.

0:52:230:52:32

Both 93 and celebrating the 70th

wedding anniversary. Congratulations

0:52:320:52:38

first of all.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Tell us how you do it. How have you

0:52:380:52:47

done it for 70 years? What's the

secret?

Well, I really don't know. I

0:52:470:52:54

think it is a bit of give-and-take.

She gives and I take! And we manage

0:52:540:53:00

fine that way.

LAUGHTER

0:53:000:53:04

Yes, I agree. That's the sum of it.

How would you describe what it is

0:53:040:53:13

like being married for 70 years?

I

don't know. It's, we've just got on

0:53:130:53:22

so well. We don't know the time

passes even. We're good friends. We

0:53:220:53:34

have laughs together and it's just

normal to us that we should be

0:53:340:53:40

together.

Do you still love each

other?

0:53:400:53:47

Sorry?

How much do you still love

each other?

Oh, very much.

Oh yes.

0:53:470:53:55

Very much, yes.

Alun?

Yes.

How much do you her?

Of

0:53:550:54:08

course, I do. More than I ever did.

I know you got a card from the Queen

0:54:080:54:15

and a commemorative coin from the

Royal Mint to celebrate, didn't you?

0:54:150:54:19

What else did you get for your

platinum wedding anniversary?

Well,

0:54:190:54:27

on the actual anniversary, I don't

think we got each other, that's all

0:54:270:54:31

we wanted. We did have a special

service for us in chapel as part of

0:54:310:54:42

the normal Sunday service which was

rather moving. We renewed our

0:54:420:54:48

wedding vows.

And how was it for

you?

We are just like one being, I

0:54:480:55:03

feel, you know, we have become one

being and we know what the other

0:55:030:55:12

wants and sometimes we disagree, but

it's not much of a disagreement.

0:55:120:55:17

It's just sort of, oh well, I think

so and so and that's it.

0:55:170:55:25

Thank you very much. Let me bring in

Dickie and Christopher. Dickie

0:55:250:55:30

former press secretary to the Queen.

The Queen and Prince Philip, do they

0:55:300:55:35

have disagreements? Do they argue?

They might argue. They might have a

0:55:350:55:39

little bit of a spat, but it is over

very quickly. Their body language,

0:55:390:55:45

looking at the pictures released

today, there is one picture of them

0:55:450:55:48

looking at each other, look at the

picture behind us, they have that

0:55:480:55:53

look and it permates through the

course of their marriage. There have

0:55:530:55:57

always been pictures like that.

Their body language is terrific.

0:55:570:55:59

They do adore each other and it does

come through. It does show and they

0:55:590:56:05

just have this ability to connect,

to communicate without actually

0:56:050:56:09

being joined at the hip.

Do you

think Christopher, they have taught

0:56:090:56:14

us any lessons about how to make

marriage work?

I don't think it is

0:56:140:56:20

making marriage work because they

failed to teach some of the other

0:56:200:56:23

members of the Royal Family, haven't

they how to make marriage work? What

0:56:230:56:29

is fascinating here when they get

married, he is going to be a very

0:56:290:56:33

good naval officer. He was a very

good naval officer. He under

0:56:330:56:37

standings that this would be a

complete change his life. When he

0:56:370:56:41

becomes, when the Queen becomes the

Queen, he turns around and says, "I

0:56:410:56:47

have nothing to do. I haven't got a

role in this. ." You can go off a

0:56:470:56:59

design the royal naught and go off

to Australia and cause levels of

0:56:590:57:03

friction, like talking to the couple

here, we look round and we look at

0:57:030:57:07

them and we look at the Royal Family

and the Queen and Prince Philip and

0:57:070:57:11

say, 70 years, now what made it

work? What was it? Is it like the

0:57:110:57:16

older you get in marriage, the more

forgiving you are? It becomes

0:57:160:57:21

something which you split into two

roles. The Queen, about whom we know

0:57:210:57:26

very little surprisingly and Prince

Philip who we seem to know far more

0:57:260:57:30

about, and they become symbols and

that's why I come back to this idea

0:57:300:57:35

that they somehow reflect society as

it is at the moment. So, we are

0:57:350:57:42

moving towards a complete change in

the way society is and the way

0:57:420:57:47

monarchy will reflect that society.

I think it's the end of an era.

0:57:470:57:51

Thank you very much.

Congratulations again. Thank you.

0:57:510:57:59

70 years.

The latest news and sport coming up.

0:57:590:58:04

Latest from Harare in a couple of

minutes. Before that, the weather.

0:58:040:58:08

Here is Carol. Thank you, Victoria.

0:58:080:58:10

minutes. Before that, the weather.

Here is Carol. Thank you, Victoria.

0:58:100:58:11

This morning it has been a cold

start, but a very mild start for

0:58:110:58:14

others. As we go through this week,

the forecast is a mild one. There

0:58:140:58:18

will be rain at times and it is

often going to be windy A the moment

0:58:180:58:21

in parts of North Wales, the

temperature is 14 Celsius. Low

0:58:210:58:25

pressure is dominating our weather.

We have got an array of fronts

0:58:250:58:29

moving from its west to the east,

taking rain with them. With

0:58:290:58:33

transient hill snow across the

Highlands of Scotland. We are

0:58:330:58:36

pulling in our wind from the

south-west which means that's a mild

0:58:360:58:41

direction, hence the higher

temperatures, milder air holds

0:58:410:58:44

moisture so there is a lot of cloud

and rain. The exception to the mild

0:58:440:58:48

air is across the far north-east of

Scotland. So as we go through the

0:58:480:58:51

course of this morning, the rain

continues to edge into the North

0:58:510:58:54

Sea. Behind it, there will be spots

of rain coming out of the thicker

0:58:540:58:58

cloud and there will be a lot of

cloud around this afternoon with

0:58:580:59:01

just one or two exceptions where we

will see sunshine. So into the

0:59:010:59:05

afternoon across south-west England,

we hang on to the cloud. Some

0:59:050:59:09

splashes of rain, some splashes of

rain not everywhere as we push

0:59:090:59:12

across southern counties, but it is

going to be fairly cloudy

0:59:120:59:15

everywhere, but one thing you will

notice particularly compared to

0:59:150:59:19

yesterday is, it's fairly mild.

Across northern England we are

0:59:190:59:22

looking at that cloud producing rain

and indeed we are too across

0:59:220:59:25

Scotland. The heavier rain having

pushed off into the North Sea. The

0:59:250:59:30

rain drizzly and murky conditions.

In Scotland it will be chilly. Seven

0:59:300:59:35

Celsius the tomp ture in Aberdeen.

Spots of rain coming out of the

0:59:350:59:38

cloud across Northern Ireland. Here

too, very mild for the time of year

0:59:380:59:42

and for Wales, quite a murky

afternoon, all having said that,

0:59:420:59:45

parts of east Wales and

Herefordshire, also the West

0:59:450:59:49

Midlands seeing sunshine. Lieu this

evening and overnight, the rain

0:59:490:59:57

across Scotland rejaouf nates. We

have south-westerly winds and

0:59:570:59:59

another mild night. The temperatures

wouldn't be too bad for day time

0:59:591:00:06

maximums, the mild air pushing up

across the north of Scotland.

1:00:061:00:09

Tomorrow the rain continues to push

up into the north and a new band

1:00:091:00:12

comes into the west and for a time

at least it will be dry in the east.

1:00:121:00:16

Hello.

1:00:181:00:19

It's Monday, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:00:191:00:27

Welcome to the problem - programme

what a Freudian slip.

1:00:271:00:33

The deadline for Robert Mugabe

to stand down as President

1:00:331:00:36

of Zimbabwe has passed.

1:00:361:00:42

I will have the latest live from

Zimbabwe, a nation still in shock

1:00:421:00:46

and disbelief that President Mugabe

failed to resign in his live

1:00:461:00:49

televised address last night. There

are calls for people to turn out

1:00:491:00:53

onto the streets tomorrow in huge

demonstrations, demanding that he

1:00:531:00:58

goes.

We will bring you the latest

reaction to events in Zimbabwe over

1:00:581:01:03

the next half-hour and try and find

out happens next.

1:01:031:01:06

Also on the programme -

so-called "punishment"

1:01:061:01:08

attacks by paramilitaries,

usually kneecappings

1:01:081:01:09

or serious beatings.

1:01:091:01:10

They're happening in this country

right now and they're

1:01:101:01:12

taking their toll on society.

1:01:121:01:16

I know of several examples

where young people have been shot

1:01:161:01:18

or beaten by paramilitary

organisations and within a matter

1:01:181:01:21

of weeks, they've

taken their own lives.

1:01:211:01:31

Our correspondent Ben

Brown is in Harare.

1:01:371:01:43

Welcome to the special coverage of

the crisis in Zimbabwe. We are in

1:01:431:01:48

the capital, Harare, and that

deadline for Mr Mugabe to resign has

1:01:481:01:51

just passed. To our knowledge, he

has not resigned. He certainly

1:01:511:01:56

didn't in that much anticipated

televised address last night on

1:01:561:02:03

Zimbabwean national television after

days of pressure from the military

1:02:031:02:06

here, from his own party, Zanu-PF,

which sacked him as party leader,

1:02:061:02:10

and indeed from the people, with

huge demonstrations here on

1:02:101:02:13

Saturday. Despite all of that

pressure, he refused to resign. What

1:02:131:02:17

looks now inevitable is that there

will be moves to impeach him. In the

1:02:171:02:21

parliament behind me, they will need

a two thirds majority in both Houses

1:02:211:02:27

of Parliament to impeach him. We

have been told this morning by one

1:02:271:02:31

MP that that impeachment process

could take quite a while. Days,

1:02:311:02:36

weeks, maybe even months. So Mr

Mugabe is still technically

1:02:361:02:39

president of this country, still the

oldest president in the world, and

1:02:391:02:45

also, bizarrely, under house arrest.

We have been hearing from the war

1:02:451:02:49

veterans, the men who fought

alongside Mr Mugabe in the war of

1:02:491:02:53

liberation for Zimbabwe, the war of

independence. They want him out.

1:02:531:02:56

They have just a news conference.

Yesterday, the party record him, and

1:02:561:03:07

today they are starting to initiate

impeachment proceedings, so I hear.

1:03:071:03:11

And they will be calling upon the

various province chairman to call

1:03:111:03:17

upon the MPs from those provinces to

come to Parliament and make sure

1:03:171:03:23

that impeachment proceedings begin

against Mr Mugabe. This is a welcome

1:03:231:03:28

thing and we want it to proceed. We

encourage the party to expeditiously

1:03:281:03:35

do that as soon as possible. We are

also appealing to other party in the

1:03:351:03:42

Parliament, the MDC, to coordinate

their efforts with the ruling party

1:03:421:03:44

so that we achieve the desired end

to see Mugabe out of office

1:03:441:03:49

immediately.

That was the leader of

the war veterans Association here,

1:03:491:04:00

saying that Mr Mugabe has been in

power for 37 years in Zimbabwe. He

1:04:001:04:04

should not be allowed to stay in

power, he says, for another 37

1:04:041:04:11

seconds. Just an example of the

hostility to Mr Mugabe that there

1:04:111:04:15

is, but for the moment, he shows no

sign of resigning. Let's talk to

1:04:151:04:20

Beatrice, a Zimbabwean human rights

lawyer who joins us now in Harare.

1:04:201:04:28

What do you make of Mr Mugabe's

refusal to resign when so many were

1:04:281:04:32

expecting that he would?

I think

everybody knows that he is a very

1:04:321:04:38

stubborn man. I'm surprised that

people thought he would just cave in

1:04:381:04:43

because people say he must resign.

That is typical Robert Mugabe for

1:04:431:04:46

you.

OK! But what will he do now? Is

he going to stick this out? We have

1:04:461:04:55

an impeachment process. Is that

going to be successful?

I think

1:04:551:05:02

impeachment is probably the best

route to take. Firstly, it is legal

1:05:021:05:07

and secondly, since everybody agrees

from all the political divide that

1:05:071:05:10

he should go, they can short-circuit

the process by ensuring that

1:05:101:05:18

Parliamentary rules are suspended

for the purposes of ensuring that it

1:05:181:05:23

goes through. Parliament has the

power to regulate its own rules, so

1:05:231:05:26

they can fast-track it if they wish

to. And by all accounts, they do

1:05:261:05:32

want it over and done with by

yesterday.

What was the reaction?

1:05:321:05:38

Millions were watching the televised

address last night and a lot of

1:05:381:05:41

people were thinking he was going to

resign. One news agency reported

1:05:411:05:47

that he had resigned, in fact. But

he didn't. Was there shock, anger,

1:05:471:05:52

disappointment?

For the ordinary

people enlisted, the thinking was,

1:05:521:05:59

why would he have a press conference

unless he was going to say what they

1:05:591:06:03

wanted him to say? But from a

strategic point of view, it is a

1:06:031:06:06

good thing he didn't resign, because

he cannot challenge the process on

1:06:061:06:13

the basis that he was coerced and

resigned under duress because he was

1:06:131:06:16

surrounded by the military. So the

fact that he was made to go there

1:06:161:06:22

with a statement that didn't say

what the military wants in itself

1:06:221:06:26

can be used to show that actually,

he was not under any form of

1:06:261:06:33

coercion and the military would be

able to save the guy came, made his

1:06:331:06:37

statement. We didn't like the

statement, but he was a free man. So

1:06:371:06:41

this is not a coup, because in a

coup, you make someone read what you

1:06:411:06:51

want him to read. So this was a

masterstroke, because he cannot

1:06:511:06:55

argue that it was a forced

resignation.

But he is still

1:06:551:06:59

president and that is extraordinary.

If he under house arrest?

Again,

1:06:591:07:05

from a strategic point of view, it

is easy to argue that this is not a

1:07:051:07:09

coup because when one has a coup,

the military takes over the levers

1:07:091:07:14

of government. Here, all the levers

of government are still with

1:07:141:07:17

Zanu-PF. All the ministers except

the few who are in custody are this

1:07:171:07:22

judging their duties. The army

commanders have not taken over

1:07:221:07:26

Mugabe's office. It is still

functioning normally. It is probably

1:07:261:07:31

meant to disguise the fact that

there is military intervention,

1:07:311:07:36

which ordinarily is a coup. But

because they have not taken of the

1:07:361:07:41

government, they can argue that

actually, it wasn't a coup.

How much

1:07:411:07:49

longer do you think he's going to be

president, weeks, months or days?

1:07:491:07:54

When one looks at how this thing is

snowballing, his period is becoming

1:07:541:07:59

shorter and shorter. I would

definitely say not weeks. We are

1:07:591:08:06

talking days, depending on how the

impeachment goes. The university

1:08:061:08:12

students are also making their own

demands, which means other civil

1:08:121:08:16

society activists will join the

bandwagon. It looks like the country

1:08:161:08:20

will be made ungovernable unless he

steps down.

Beatrice, a Zimbabwean

1:08:201:08:28

human rights lawyer, thank you for

your time. Despite what Beatrice was

1:08:281:08:34

saying, Mr Mugabe has not got a

great track record of listening to

1:08:341:08:37

the people, although there is

another big penetration being called

1:08:371:08:40

for tomorrow in Harare by the war

veterans Association. Their leader

1:08:401:08:46

told us he will expect that

demonstration to be even bigger than

1:08:461:08:50

the vast demonstration we saw here

on Saturday, when thousands took to

1:08:501:08:54

the streets, demanding that Mr

Mugabe goes now. Let's get the

1:08:541:08:58

thoughts of our Southern Africa

correspondent, Milton Nkosi, in

1:08:581:09:02

Johannesburg. The deadline has come

and gone. He is still technically

1:09:021:09:08

president?

Yes. We now expect that

Zanu-PF will deliver on its threat,

1:09:081:09:16

or promise, that they will start

impeachment receiving is and there

1:09:161:09:23

will start carrying them out in

parliament on Tuesday. Even if this

1:09:231:09:30

process was started by the military,

they are now taking a step back and

1:09:301:09:37

allowing it to be a popular movement

by the people. Beatrice is correct

1:09:371:09:44

that the students are joining in.

They will have mass action following

1:09:441:09:48

this. Last week, we saw the military

taking charge and the people

1:09:481:09:56

following the military. I think from

now on, things will be turned around

1:09:561:10:00

so that the people are taking charge

of the process and the military will

1:10:001:10:06

be behind them. And what is

important is the region. They want

1:10:061:10:16

the transition of Robert Mugabe

stepping down to be choreographed

1:10:161:10:19

carefully. That is why you have this

delicate constitutionalism getting

1:10:191:10:23

in the way of what we all thought

was a coup d'etat. What they want is

1:10:231:10:34

that by the time Robert Mugabe is

gone, they cannot say he was removed

1:10:341:10:38

by the barrel of a gun.

Maybe we

were wrong to be surprised last

1:10:381:10:43

night when he made that address and

failed to resign. Maybe we should

1:10:431:10:47

never have expected a man as

stubborn as we all know Robert

1:10:471:10:50

Mugabe is to just cave in?

Well, it

was a natural expectation once you

1:10:501:10:57

hear the president is going to

address the nation live on

1:10:571:10:59

television. You expect something

unusual. And of course, Robert

1:10:591:11:05

Mugabe held onto his line that he

has been holding since the army

1:11:051:11:10

parked a tank outside his house. It

is clear that he has no intention of

1:11:101:11:16

stepping down. We heard him in his

own words saying that he is hoping

1:11:161:11:22

to be presiding over the Zanu-PF

congress in December. We are in

1:11:221:11:27

November. So the president thinks he

will still be president by December.

1:11:271:11:35

Thank you. That was Milton Nkosi,

our Southern Africa correspondent.

1:11:351:11:40

Calls for big demonstrations again

tomorrow. Let's talk to an activist

1:11:401:11:45

who was on the streets on Saturday.

Will you come out onto the streets

1:11:451:11:54

again to demand that Mr Mugabe goes?

I will be on the streets until he

1:11:541:12:00

goes. There is no other option. I

just need to see him go. So we are

1:12:001:12:07

sitting in Africa Unity Square until

he goes.

When you saw that speech

1:12:071:12:13

last night on TV, how surprised,

disappointed or angry where you that

1:12:131:12:19

he barely mentioned all the pressure

on him to go and never mentioned the

1:12:191:12:24

demonstrations or the fact that the

people are against him, certainly in

1:12:241:12:27

Harare?

Yesterday, before the

speech, I was ready to celebrate.

1:12:271:12:34

And then when I heard the speech, I

was really disappointed. It was

1:12:341:12:38

heartbreaking. I was actually in

tears. We expected him to step down

1:12:381:12:48

and do the right thing. And all he

said was nothing.

Isn't that classic

1:12:481:12:55

Robert Mugabe, in a sense?

Yeah,

that is classic Robert Mugabe. His

1:12:551:13:01

sole ambition was to have power from

the beginning. He got that power

1:13:011:13:05

which is so dear to him, and he

wants to hold onto it for ever.

Do

1:13:051:13:12

you think something has changed in

this country with that amazing

1:13:121:13:16

demonstration on Saturday that you

took part in? It was euphoric and

1:13:161:13:20

full of joy. People were on the

streets. They were taking selfies

1:13:201:13:23

with the Army. Has everything now

changed in Zimbabwe after that?

Yes,

1:13:231:13:30

there was a sense of a freedom that

we had never experienced in this

1:13:301:13:36

country. As an activist, some of the

demonstrations we have been doing

1:13:361:13:40

were under police brutality. You

could not walk a step without police

1:13:401:13:46

throwing tear gas at you. So there

is a sense of freedom and hope in

1:13:461:13:51

the country that something can be

done.

Thank you very much. That is

1:13:511:14:00

the latest from here. We know that

that deadline has passed. Mr Mugabe

1:14:001:14:05

has still not resigned, but we will

bring you the latest throughout the

1:14:051:14:08

day on BBC News.

1:14:081:14:13

So-called punishment attacks,

knee-cappings, serious beatings

1:14:131:14:19

using sledgehammers and electric

drills as punishment for carrying

1:14:191:14:25

out a crime or anti-social behaviour

is something we associate with

1:14:251:14:28

Isis-controlled parts of Iraq and

Syria.

1:14:281:14:29

But it's also happening

here in the UK in 2017.

1:14:291:14:31

After a period of decline,

such attacks by paramilitaries

1:14:311:14:33

are on the rise in Northern Ireland,

with a 30% increase

1:14:331:14:36

over the last year.

1:14:361:14:45

Talking to people who've been

victims of them is incredibly rare,

1:14:451:14:48

for obvious reasons.

1:14:481:14:49

But our reporter Greg Dawson has

spoken to two young men

1:14:491:14:51

who were kneecapped.

1:14:511:14:53

We brought you his full report

earlier; here's a short extract.

1:14:531:15:00

It is graphic from the beginning and

you may not want young children to

1:15:001:15:03

hear it.

1:15:031:15:04

Shootings, beatings, threats.

1:15:041:15:08

Paramilitary-style attacks may be

a legacy of decades of conflict

1:15:081:15:11

in Northern Ireland,

but even in 2017, the self-appointed

1:15:111:15:15

men in charge still see it

as their role to police

1:15:151:15:17

their communities and crack down

on what they deem to be

1:15:171:15:20

antisocial behaviour.

1:15:201:15:21

James and Thomas, not their real

names, were shot in the legs.

1:15:211:15:25

We voiced their words for them.

1:15:251:15:31

They got in contact with someone

in the family, they told me I had

1:15:311:15:34

to go and meet them.

1:15:341:15:35

I walked to the place

and they told me to go

1:15:351:15:38

and they were standing there,

they showed me the gun and told me

1:15:381:15:41

to lie down on the floor.

1:15:411:15:43

That was it.

1:15:431:15:47

One of the hallmarks of these

attacks is that many

1:15:471:15:49

of the victims know it's coming.

1:15:491:15:53

In some cases, parents are faced

with a dreadful dilemma of how best

1:15:531:15:56

to protect their child.

1:15:561:15:57

Hide them from paramilitary

groups or hand them over

1:15:571:16:00

for so-called appointments.

1:16:001:16:02

I did one or two bad things

and they were just picking

1:16:021:16:04

on me and picking on me.

1:16:041:16:06

I was trying to change my life

around and they were

1:16:061:16:08

still picking on me.

1:16:081:16:16

They put me out of the country

and then mummy visited me and said,

1:16:161:16:20

"Listen I've been talking to someone

to try to sort it out to get someone

1:16:201:16:24

to give you an easy shooting".

1:16:241:16:29

I put my shoes on and

went straightaway and

1:16:291:16:37

I put my shoes on and went

straightaway and I said, "Yes,

1:16:371:16:40

let's get it over and done with".

1:16:401:16:41

So I put my shoes on and straight

to Belfast, right.

1:16:411:16:44

Talk me through the day it happened?

1:16:441:16:46

I was told to walk up the street

and I looked behind me

1:16:461:16:49

and two men were there.

1:16:491:16:50

I turned round and I said to them,

there are ten times as many people

1:16:501:16:53

out there doing worse than me

and he just said, "Listen, kid, I'll

1:16:531:16:57

look after you".

1:16:571:16:58

And how's that looking after you?

1:16:581:16:59

In 2016-2017, there were 94 reported

casualties of shootings

1:16:591:17:01

and assaults, that's up 30%

on the previous year.

1:17:011:17:04

Attacks are currently

at their highest level since 2010.

1:17:041:17:06

And since 2009, 47% of attacks

targeted people aged 25 and under.

1:17:061:17:09

The Police Service of

Northern Ireland has now

1:17:091:17:11

teamed up with officers

from the National Crime Agency

1:17:111:17:17

for a dedicated task force to deal

with paramilitaries.

1:17:171:17:19

Beyond doubt, there is an attempt

by some of these paramilitary groups

1:17:191:17:22

to continue to exert their influence

within communities and I think this

1:17:221:17:27

is one area where they see a degree

of populism and they think it's

1:17:271:17:30

a way which they can re-establish

or promote their legitimacy

1:17:301:17:33

within communities.

1:17:331:17:38

Obviously, from my perspective,

I am absolutely committed to denying

1:17:381:17:40

them any potential oxygen

in that respect.

1:17:401:17:42

Although the majority

of injuries from attacks

1:17:421:17:43

aren't life-threatening,

they can be life-changing

1:17:431:17:45

and campaigners argue the mental

health consequences can be

1:17:451:17:47

the most damaging.

1:17:471:17:52

Let's talk to Koulla Yiasouma,

Northern Ireland's Commisioner

1:17:521:17:54

for Children and Young people.

1:17:541:17:56

Tommy McCourt is a mediator

at the Rosemount Centre in Derry.

1:17:561:18:04

I want to ask you Tommy McCourt

first of all why do some parents

1:18:041:18:09

choose to hand over their sons to

the paramilitaries to be subject to

1:18:091:18:16

a so-called punishment beating or

shooting?

Well, I mean that's a very

1:18:161:18:22

difficult question to simply

1:18:221:18:23

shooting?

Well, I mean that's a very

difficult question to simply answer.

1:18:231:18:24

What you need to do is ask why are

the punishment shootings taking

1:18:241:18:30

place in the first place and also to

look at the overall history of this

1:18:301:18:34

society that we have been living in

for 40 years. If someone is coming

1:18:341:18:39

to tell a parent that their son, his

behaviour has got to a level or it

1:18:391:18:45

has got to a point where he has to

be stopped in one form or another,

1:18:451:18:52

that's an indictment of our society

in not being able to put proper

1:18:521:18:58

resources in place to deal with

these things.

Why wouldn't people go

1:18:581:19:01

to the police to report anti-social

behaviour?

Well, people, some people

1:19:011:19:06

will go to the police. This is not,

them or us attitude. Some people try

1:19:061:19:13

all sorts of different

methodologies. They go to social

1:19:131:19:16

workers and the local church and

they go to the police, they go to

1:19:161:19:20

local communities and different

organisations to try and get help

1:19:201:19:23

because their son is maybe behaving

in a fashion which is creating

1:19:231:19:26

mayhem within their communities or

taking drugs or selling drugs or

1:19:261:19:30

whatever and parents do, as what

parents do, they do everything in

1:19:301:19:34

their power to prevent this and try

and stop it, but the reality is

1:19:341:19:39

there is insufficient resources to

be able to deal with this and

1:19:391:19:42

sometimes, you have to be careful

here, if you try to explain these

1:19:421:19:45

things or try to analyse them in

some fashion you are maybe portrayed

1:19:451:19:50

as trying to justify them. I want to

be clear, our position is

1:19:501:19:53

straightforward. We make it clear

from day one that violence is not

1:19:531:19:57

the answer to social problems. But

at the same time, if you're going to

1:19:571:20:02

say violence isn't the answer you

have to say what is and if the

1:20:021:20:08

resources aren't there then

frustration sets in and because of

1:20:081:20:11

the history of this society that we

have been living in, there is a

1:20:111:20:15

tendency for people to say if we

don't get help from the state and if

1:20:151:20:18

we don't get it from outside, we

will turn to our own people and

1:20:181:20:23

that's where marred military

organisations step into the picture.

1:20:231:20:30

Koulla How do you react to the

significant rise in the punishment

1:20:301:20:34

shootings and beatings particularly

on young people?

I am appalled and

1:20:341:20:38

what your piece today has

highlighted just how devastating it

1:20:381:20:41

is, not only to the lives of

children and young people

1:20:411:20:44

themselves, but their families and

their communities and Tommy is

1:20:441:20:48

right, this is a multi-facetted

issue. So there is the issue of

1:20:481:20:51

making sure that the criminal

justice systems have the support of

1:20:511:20:55

the local community to be able to

deal with their issues. If you see

1:20:551:20:59

somebody committing a crime, you

should report it. If you see

1:20:591:21:03

somebody abusing or assaulting a

young person or anybody else, you

1:21:031:21:05

should feel the confidence to be

able to report it, but why is it in

1:21:051:21:10

particular communities and we have

to look at stained funding. We have

1:21:101:21:14

to look at support for communities

because these communities are

1:21:141:21:22

vibrant, but disjointed funding,

piecemeal funding, different people

1:21:221:21:25

doing different things in different

ways isn't helping to find a

1:21:251:21:28

long-term solution to this issue.

And just one thing, let's not

1:21:281:21:35

romanticise, these aren't

paramilitaries fighting for a cause,

1:21:351:21:37

these are in the main criminal gangs

fighting, looking to take control so

1:21:371:21:44

that they can continue with their

criminal activity whether it is drug

1:21:441:21:48

dealing or any sort of criminal

activity and they are trying to

1:21:481:21:51

control children and young people.

Even if there were more resources

1:21:511:21:56

that wouldn't necessarily lead to

communities trusting the police

1:21:561:21:59

more? How does that happen?

There

needs to be a piece of work, the

1:21:591:22:05

police need to go in there and not

just the police, our Criminal

1:22:051:22:10

Justice System, I have heard

continually from communities and let

1:22:101:22:13

me say that I have been working on

this from the day and hour I became

1:22:131:22:17

commissioner and other organisations

and you have heard from some of them

1:22:171:22:20

today have been working on this a

lot longer including my office under

1:22:201:22:25

my predecessor, but the police and

the whole Criminal Justice System

1:22:251:22:28

need to go in and demonstrate to

these communities that they are

1:22:281:22:33

there police service, that they are

their Criminal Justice System. Since

1:22:331:22:38

2009 we have had devolution of crime

and justice. The parties who signed

1:22:381:22:42

up to devolution of policing, are

the ones who are getting the highest

1:22:421:22:47

votes. They must send the message to

their communities and the police and

1:22:471:22:51

the rest of the Criminal Justice

System must demonstrate on a day and

1:22:511:22:55

daily basis, not just when something

happens and then they just walk in,

1:22:551:22:58

but on a day and daily basis that

they are there for them. They are

1:22:581:23:02

there to protect them, not just to

criminalise them and not just to

1:23:021:23:06

arrest them which they should do if

a crime is being committed, but they

1:23:061:23:09

are there to keep them safe.

Tommy,

let me read some messages from our

1:23:091:23:14

audience to you. This text from

Chris, "What the paramilitary groups

1:23:141:23:19

are doing to teenagers is illegal

and unacceptable. This is the no the

1:23:191:23:22

Wild West. The police and courts are

there to decide on punishment

1:23:221:23:26

legally and fairly. Anybody who

thinks the paramilitaries are doing

1:23:261:23:30

the community a service, they are

wrong. For them to scare, threaten,

1:23:301:23:33

mums and dads to take their children

to be beaten or shot or knee capped

1:23:331:23:38

is sick." Neil, there are a couple

like this, Tommy, "Am I supposed to

1:23:381:23:43

feel sorry for the young men who

involve themselves in criminal

1:23:431:23:47

activity that they know is likely to

result in a punishment beating? Play

1:23:471:23:52

with fire and you get burned." What

dud say to that?

Well, I think it

1:23:521:23:59

demonstrates the ambivalence that

there is towards this. Again, I

1:23:591:24:01

think you have to understand in the

history and the context of the state

1:24:011:24:05

that we're living in. I mean we

would see people and hear people

1:24:051:24:09

regularly saying things that was

terrible, that young man being shot

1:24:091:24:12

was an awful thing and two seconds

later out of the same voice, it says

1:24:121:24:16

but he didn't get it for nothing. He

didn't get it for saying his

1:24:161:24:19

prayers. The behaviour of these

young people are destroying our

1:24:191:24:23

communities and ruining the lives of

people living within the communities

1:24:231:24:26

and somebody needs to do something

about it. Now, I mean, that's not to

1:24:261:24:31

justify the shooting and I want to

be clear about that, but it does

1:24:311:24:35

raise the question if this behaviour

is inscresing, which -- increasing

1:24:351:24:40

which it seem to be, there needs to

be activity or some kind of action

1:24:401:24:44

or programmes to look at it

rationally, not in an emotional

1:24:441:24:47

sense. I mean, you know, I have just

listened to and people have their

1:24:471:24:54

own views, but for somebody to say,

"They are all criminal gangs and all

1:24:541:24:57

they are interested in is drug

dealing or whatever." The people who

1:24:571:25:01

are involved in the organisation

like it or lump it are the same type

1:25:011:25:04

of people who were involved in the

republican movement whether it is

1:25:041:25:09

the provisional IRA or Sinn Fein who

have moved on into political debate

1:25:091:25:13

and it is similar type of people who

don't agree with the position that's

1:25:131:25:16

going on. You can condemn their

actions and all the rest, but

1:25:161:25:19

sometimes you have to be able to be

rational in dealing with them and I

1:25:191:25:24

agree that you know programmes, we

ran a programme here in Derry for

1:25:241:25:28

four years, called Time to Choose.

Within that programme we have dealt

1:25:281:25:32

with over 1300, 1300 cases which

could potentially have gone towards

1:25:321:25:38

a punishment beating or shooting and

every last one was resolved and they

1:25:381:25:42

were resolved without violence and

resolved with helping the young

1:25:421:25:45

people to move in a different

direction and we called the

1:25:451:25:48

programme Time to Choose. That

programme is no longer funded and we

1:25:481:25:52

are doing this voluntarily.

You

mediated between young people who

1:25:521:25:57

had potentially been involved in

anti-social behaviour and the

1:25:571:26:02

paramilitaries, did you?

Well, it is

not a direct line, you call a

1:26:021:26:05

meeting in the bar or a meeting in

some office with a paramilitary.

1:26:051:26:09

There are lines of communication

which have been in existence from

1:26:091:26:12

the start of the troubles and always

have been. Direct lines of

1:26:121:26:14

communication in Number Ten Downing

Street. So, for people to assume

1:26:141:26:17

that there is no longer any method

of contacting people it is foolish.

1:26:171:26:22

Certainly, we do have some means of

contact, but those means of contact

1:26:221:26:26

we try to find out what is the issue

here? Why is this person being

1:26:261:26:30

threatened? What is their behaviour

and we do our best to resolve it. It

1:26:301:26:38

means trying to convince local

communities that doing is being done

1:26:381:26:41

to alleviate the problem.

Koulla Why

do you think some people tolerate

1:26:411:26:48

the attacks on young people?

I think

it's probably because they just feel

1:26:481:26:54

so frustrated that they can't find a

long-term solution and resolution to

1:26:541:27:00

certain behaviours by young people

and anyone who thinks that anybody

1:27:001:27:04

can do anything that justifies an

arbitrary response like this, a

1:27:041:27:10

violent response like this is sorely

mistaken. Communities who are

1:27:101:27:15

affected deeply by anti-social and

criminal behaviour by young people

1:27:151:27:19

or anybody else have a right to be

safe. That was the point I was

1:27:191:27:22

trying to make about criminal

justice systems, the police going in

1:27:221:27:26

and keeping the communities safe.

Finding a timely and speedy response

1:27:261:27:31

to young people and also then going

in behind them working with, there

1:27:311:27:37

is fantastic community organisations

across our communities in Northern

1:27:371:27:40

Ireland, with a sustained plan, with

a plan that's been developed by the

1:27:401:27:45

community, including young people,

including adults, of all ages and

1:27:451:27:48

going in there on a long-term basis

and saying, "Let's work on this

1:27:481:27:52

together. Let's fund what needs to

be doneded." The first thing that

1:27:521:28:00

has to happen is communities have to

have confidence in their Criminal

1:28:001:28:03

Justice System. The police is there

for them and I understand

1:28:031:28:07

frustration when they see young

people committing crime or anybody

1:28:071:28:10

else committing crime and no

response, but let me tell you and we

1:28:101:28:13

all agree that, it's not right, it's

not legitimate and it's outrageous

1:28:131:28:18

the way we are responding to this

sort of behaviour by young people is

1:28:181:28:22

violence. It does not justify this

sort of thing and it has to stop and

1:28:221:28:26

these people have to be arrested and

brought to book.

Thank you both.

1:28:261:28:29

Thank you very much.

Northern Ireland's commissioner for

1:28:291:28:33

children and young people and Tommy

McCourt, a mediator at the Rosemount

1:28:331:28:38

Centre in Derry, thank you.

1:28:381:28:45

Still to come:

1:28:451:28:46

As the future

of Zimbabwe hangs in the balance,

1:28:461:28:48

we'll bring you the latest analysis

on what happens next.

1:28:481:28:50

Ministers are expected to discuss

the next Brexit steps

1:28:501:28:52

at a mini-Cabinet meeting later.

1:28:521:28:54

But how much should Britain pay

to get talks moving forward?

1:28:541:28:56

We'll have insight from across

the political spectrum.

1:28:561:29:01

Time for the latest

news, here's Rebecca.

1:29:031:29:09

The BBC News headlines this morning.

1:29:091:29:12

The deadline set by Zimbabwe's

ruling party for President Robert

1:29:121:29:14

Mugabe to resign or face

impeachment has expired.

1:29:141:29:20

In a speech to the nation last

night, Mr Mugabe made it

1:29:201:29:23

clear he had no intention

of stepping down.

1:29:231:29:33

The formal process could begin

tomorrow. The MDC may refuse to

1:29:411:29:50

support the Zanu-PF motion.

1:29:501:29:53

The German President Frank-Walter

Steinmeier is to hold crisis talks

1:29:541:29:56

with Chancellor Angela Merkel,

after her failed attempt to forge

1:29:561:29:59

a coalition cast doubts

over her political future.

1:29:591:30:00

The centrist Free Democrats pulled

out of talks late last night,

1:30:001:30:05

blaming irreconcilable differences

with Mrs Merkel's Christian

1:30:051:30:08

Democrats and the other party

in the talks, the Greens.

1:30:081:30:16

Police say there were no injuries

to suggest "any other person

1:30:161:30:22

was involved" in the death

of the missing teenager Gaia Pope.

1:30:221:30:24

The 19-year-old's body was found

on Saturday in a field near Swanage,

1:30:241:30:28

11 days after she was last seen.

1:30:281:30:29

Dorset Police are treating her death

as "unexplained" pending

1:30:291:30:31

toxicology results.

1:30:311:30:36

The convicted cult

leader Charles Manson -

1:30:361:30:39

who orchestrated a series

of notorious murders in the 1960s -

1:30:391:30:42

has died in prison in

California at the age of 83.

1:30:421:30:45

In 1969, members of his group killed

seven people including

1:30:451:30:48

the actress Sharon Tate,

wife of the film director,

1:30:481:30:50

Roman Polanski.

1:30:501:30:54

Manson himself was initially

sentenced to death, before

1:30:541:30:56

the penalty was abolished

in California.

1:30:561:31:01

Women are being advised to sleep

on their side in the last three

1:31:011:31:05

months of pregnancy to avoid having

a stillborn baby.

1:31:051:31:13

A study of just over 1,000 women

found the risk doubles if women go

1:31:131:31:18

to sleep on their backs,

but researchers say

1:31:181:31:20

women should not worry

if they are on their back

1:31:201:31:22

when they wake up.

1:31:221:31:23

The study authors estimate that

about 130 babies' lives a year

1:31:231:31:26

could be saved if this advice

was followed.

1:31:261:31:28

The Queen and Prince Philip

are celebrating their 70th

1:31:281:31:33

wedding anniversary today -

the longest in the Royal

1:31:331:31:35

family's history.

1:31:351:31:37

The occasion is being marked

with a new series of portraits,

1:31:371:31:39

a set of stamps and a private party

for the Royal Family

1:31:391:31:42

at Windsor Castle.

1:31:421:31:45

The church's bells of Westminster

Abbey, where they married,

1:31:451:31:47

will ring for more than three hours

to mark the occasion.

1:31:471:31:51

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:31:511:32:00

And here is some sport now.

1:32:001:32:01

Former Wimbledon champion

Jana Novotna has died, aged 49.

1:32:011:32:05

In a statement, the Women's Tennis

Association confirmed that

1:32:051:32:07

Novotna died yesterday,

surrounded by her family

1:32:071:32:09

in her native Czech Republic,

after a long battle with cancer.

1:32:091:32:13

She was famously consoled

by the Dutchess of Kent after losing

1:32:131:32:16

the Wimbledon final in 1993,

before eventually winning

1:32:161:32:18

the title in 1998.

1:32:181:32:28

West Brom has sacked

manager Tony Pulis,

1:32:281:32:30

with the club just a point

above the Premier League zone.

1:32:301:32:37

with the club just a point above

the Premier League relegation zone.

1:32:381:32:41

In a statement, the club's chairman

John Williams says results have been

1:32:411:32:44

"very disappointing."

1:32:441:32:45

West Brom have managed two

wins in their last 21

1:32:451:32:47

Premier League games,

and were thrashed 4-0

1:32:471:32:49

by Chelsea over the weekend.

1:32:491:32:50

Assistant Head Coach Gary Megson

will take over until further notice.

1:32:501:32:53

England's men cricketers have

arrived in Brisbane ahead

1:32:531:32:55

of their first Ashes Test

at the Gabba on Thursday.

1:32:551:32:57

Seem to be in relaxed

mood, don't they?

1:32:571:32:59

Boosted by the news perhaps that

pace bowler Jake Ball has confirmed

1:32:591:33:02

he is fit for that match,

after overcoming an ankle injury.

1:33:021:33:04

And golfer Tommy Fleetwood has won

the Race to Dubai title

1:33:041:33:09

to cap a remarkable year

for the Englishman.

1:33:091:33:11

In the biggest victory

of his career, Fleetwood

1:33:111:33:13

held off the challenge

of Olympic Champion Justin Rose.

1:33:131:33:15

And it means Fleetwood is now

Europe's top player.

1:33:151:33:25

So, there is uncertainty about

Zimbabwe's future.

1:33:281:33:33

Robert Mugabe has been

told he had to stand

1:33:331:33:35

down by 10am our time

or face impeachment.

1:33:351:33:41

Robert Mugabe has ruled Zimbabwe for

almost 40 years now. How will he be

1:33:411:33:45

remembered?

1:33:451:33:55

I do swear that I will be faithful

and bear true allegiance to

1:34:271:34:30

Zimbabwe.

1:34:301:34:33

Let's talk now to Lloyd Msipa.

1:35:401:35:42

He is a friend and supporter

1:35:421:35:43

of Robert Mugabe -

he says he is "sad"

1:35:431:35:45

about the situation and that Mugabe

has been a brilliant father

1:35:451:35:48

of the nation who

deserves forgiveness,

1:35:481:35:58

Why is he a father of the nation?

Mugabe is an African icon. And what

1:35:581:36:03

is happening now is sad in the sense

that he is refusing to listen to his

1:36:031:36:11

own people. That is potentially

going to affect his legacy. He was a

1:36:111:36:15

revolutionary. He had the land

redistribution exercise. If you

1:36:151:36:22

notice, even the military are try to

negotiate with him. No heavy

1:36:221:36:26

handedness from the military,

because they want to see how much

1:36:261:36:29

they can protect that legacy so that

he goes out in a dignified way.

That

1:36:291:36:35

deadline has passed for him to

resign, 40 minutes ago. We know he

1:36:351:36:40

is a survivor. He has been in power

for 37 years. And he has ruled

1:36:401:36:45

Zimbabwe with an iron grip. How long

can he hang on?

Well, it's in his

1:36:451:36:53

nature. His brain is always working.

He is one of those politicians who

1:36:531:37:00

has respect across Africa. But at

this time, he probably understands

1:37:001:37:03

that he has been rejected by his own

military, he has been rejected by

1:37:031:37:08

the people and his party has kicked

him out. So for him, the writing is

1:37:081:37:12

on the wall. What is left now is for

him to step down. That is what they

1:37:121:37:16

have been trying to do and it

appears that either somebody out

1:37:161:37:20

there is telling him to dig in, or

it is not in his nature to reject

1:37:201:37:29

others. My concern is that there are

others telling him what to do. That

1:37:291:37:33

doesn't sound like the Robert Mugabe

that we know. That is my concern,

1:37:331:37:44

that there are somebody pulling the

strings from elsewhere.

Like who?

1:37:441:37:49

Somebody like the Foreign Minister,

who is out there and has been

1:37:491:37:54

talking to ministers in Botswana.

There are others who still have

1:37:541:37:59

access to him. We cannot jam mobile

communications, so somebody

1:37:591:38:06

somewhere is speaking to him.

It

could be his wife.

It could be his

1:38:061:38:12

wife. But these people are going to

potentially cause anarchy, because

1:38:121:38:19

as long as this thing draws out, the

people will become impatient.

You

1:38:191:38:25

say he is an African icon and father

of the nation. People here disagree.

1:38:251:38:30

How will Robert Mugabe be remembered

by the world, as a horrible man, a

1:38:301:38:38

racist, and a corrupt politician?

I

am not saying he is a saint, but he

1:38:381:38:42

is still a revolutionary. He took

the country from where it was, in

1:38:421:38:47

the hands of the coloniser, and gave

it to his own people. After that, he

1:38:471:38:51

took the land, something Mandela

never did, and tried to run the

1:38:511:38:56

economy through in digitisation

programmes. He is dearly loved by

1:38:561:39:00

his own people. But at the same

time, they feel that he is now an

1:39:001:39:05

old man.

He is not dearly loved by

all people in Zimbabwe, not those

1:39:051:39:08

who were brutally oppressed by him.

It will depend on what you call

1:39:081:39:13

loved, but there is a lot of respect

for what he stands for, the values

1:39:131:39:18

of the liberation struggle, the

image that he has put straight that

1:39:181:39:27

are portrayed.

Let me introduce some

more guests. We have a member of the

1:39:271:39:33

main opposition party in Zimbabwe,

the Movement for Democratic Change.

1:39:331:39:39

Also with us is Dr Knox Chitiyo from

the international foreign affairs

1:39:391:39:45

think-tank Chatham House. He is a

Zimbabwean who covers Zimbabwe. We

1:39:451:39:51

will talk to two people in Zimbabwe

in just a moment. As an opposition

1:39:511:39:59

politician, what do you think will

happen next?

Mugabe is going to be

1:39:591:40:02

kicked out by his party. It is time

for him to go.

But he is still

1:40:021:40:08

there.

He has oppressed us for 37

years. I heard the fellow saying he

1:40:081:40:13

was a father of the nation. No, he

is not. The man is a dictator who

1:40:131:40:17

has oppressed us and ruined the

country. He has made most of us in

1:40:171:40:20

the UK run away from our country. We

were forced to leave our country. So

1:40:201:40:27

we want him to go. And we wanted

transition of government that is

1:40:271:40:34

inclusive of all the political

parties and civic organisations. And

1:40:341:40:38

we demand from Zanu-PF that they do

not sideline the opposition like

1:40:381:40:41

they did before. We are also looking

for a new voters' role. -- a new

1:40:411:40:58

voters' law. We know there are over

1 million dead voters on it. So we

1:40:581:41:03

want a new one and we want the

transition government to include

1:41:031:41:09

voters' role server Zanu-PF

1:41:091:41:10

transition government to include

voters' role server Zanu-PF.

1:41:101:41:10

Stealing the elections. We also want

these elections to be

1:41:101:41:14

internationally monitored and they

should be free and fair and there

1:41:141:41:16

will not be any intimidation. We are

fed up with Zanu-PF and Mugabe.

What

1:41:161:41:23

do you think will happen?

There are

a number of things happening

1:41:231:41:27

simultaneously. The generals are

talking to Mugabe. The party will be

1:41:271:41:35

talking to him, and an impeachment

process is likely to begin any time

1:41:351:41:38

now. That could take time. So he may

hang on for a bit longer, but as

1:41:381:41:46

everyone agrees, the longer this

drags out, the more volatile the

1:41:461:41:50

situation gets. We have at the

moment is a national convergence

1:41:501:41:55

where the people and the military

and the politicians agree that he

1:41:551:41:58

has to go. Beyond that, if it drags

on longer, the national Maksel fault

1:41:581:42:04

lines in Zimbabwe could develop into

a dangerous situation.

Let me speak

1:42:041:42:08

to two residents. Glanis, what is it

like in Harare at the moment with

1:42:081:42:20

Robert Mugabe still your president?

1:42:201:42:31

What is happening comes from the

anxiety that people have of getting

1:42:331:42:38

Robert Mugabe to resign or get him

impeached. I think he is not going

1:42:381:42:43

to come back as our president and I

don't want to see him coming back.

1:42:431:42:49

Given that he is taking longer to

give in to the demands by the

1:42:491:42:53

military, I think people just need

to go back onto the streets like we

1:42:531:42:55

did on Saturday. This time, my

coachman to fellow citizens who we

1:42:551:43:01

are mobilising right now is, let's

not leave the streets of Harare

1:43:011:43:05

until Robert Mugabe goes. He needs

to see the muscle of the people.

Let

1:43:051:43:15

me bring in Patience in Bulawayo.

Glanis was appealing to people to

1:43:151:43:19

get out on the streets and stay

there until Robert Mugabe has gone.

1:43:191:43:23

Patience, do you want the same to

happen in Bulawayo?

After

1:43:231:43:30

experiencing Saturday, where

everyone was marching for a better

1:43:301:43:34

Zimbabwe, they didn't care about

political parties, they didn't care

1:43:341:43:37

if you were black, white, yellow or

blue, I think everyone is now United

1:43:371:43:41

for one cause. And the best cause

for now is a better Zimbabwe. I am

1:43:411:43:50

sure he saw as well that the people

have spoken. You can't have

1:43:501:43:54

thousands of people across the

country, and it wasn't just across

1:43:541:43:57

the country, it was across the world

where every Zimbabwean, wherever

1:43:571:44:03

they work, came together, and we

were marching for him to see that

1:44:031:44:06

the people have spoken and he needs

to hear what they are saying.

1:44:061:44:10

Ephraim Tapa joins us as well from

the Movement for Democratic Change,

1:44:101:44:23

an opposition party. Tell us why you

were exile here?

I arrived in the UK

1:44:231:44:34

in 2002, having been rescued from a

torture place where I had been held

1:44:341:44:42

for 23 days. I experienced

horrendous torture thank God I was

1:44:421:44:58

rescued. Basically, the opposition

movement, the trade union movement

1:44:581:45:07

which belonged to, facilitate my

escape from Zimbabwe. I came to the

1:45:071:45:13

UK.

Can you imagine going home under

a new president?

It would be

1:45:131:45:26

fantastic to go back home and a new

president. But I have got my

1:45:261:45:33

apprehensions with the way things

are playing out. For instance, we

1:45:331:45:39

must look at all of what is

happening within the context of the

1:45:391:45:47

Zanu-PF factions fighting over his

succession. If you look at that, you

1:45:471:45:53

are also looking at the possibility

of one Zanu-PF henchmen are fighting

1:45:531:46:09

over Zimbabwe. These are the same

people who denied the opposition

1:46:091:46:17

their electoral victory in 2008.

These are the same people who

1:46:171:46:27

orchestrated the genocide...

1:46:271:46:33

I want to bring our guests in the

studio back in. You have talked

1:46:331:46:40

about potentially the situation on

the streets getting a bit more

1:46:401:46:44

difficult. One guest earlier talked

about a decent into anarchy being

1:46:441:46:49

possible. What if Mugabe steps down

or is forced to step down and the

1:46:491:46:57

Vice-President steps in? Is that OK

with you?

Yes, that's, let's look at

1:46:571:47:03

this in its proper context. Whilst

we appreciate and value the

1:47:031:47:11

opposition and every Zimbabwean

united in this course to get Mugabe

1:47:111:47:15

to step down. The premise of this

whole exercise was to democratise

1:47:151:47:23

Zanu-PF, that's how it started and

that's why the military stepped in

1:47:231:47:26

in the first place. Obviously it has

become bigger than what it initially

1:47:261:47:30

was thought to be and we are happy

that the opposition are buying into

1:47:301:47:34

this whole exercise because we share

one common goal, we want Mugabe to

1:47:341:47:39

step down and get his replacement

coming in. Zanu-PF has been

1:47:391:47:44

bottlenecked for so many years. What

is happening now is a product of the

1:47:441:47:48

succession failure. If Mugabe had

dealt with the succession issues

1:47:481:47:52

earlier on, we wouldn't behaving

this problem. The faction at Zanu-PF

1:47:521:47:59

is a result of Mugabe's entrance

against.

Thank you.

1:47:591:48:03

-- entrance against.

1:48:031:48:05

Ministers are expected to discuss

the next Brexit steps at a mini

1:48:081:48:10

Cabinet meeting later.

1:48:101:48:11

On the agenda will be

a key sticking point

1:48:111:48:13

in the negotiations with Brussels,

how much we should pay

1:48:131:48:16

to settle our debts with the EU

and unlock the stalled talks.

1:48:161:48:26

Nina Schick is a political adviser

and commentator from Germany

1:48:271:48:30

and we can talk to Brexit-supporting

founder of Wetherspoons

1:48:301:48:33

pubs, Tim Martin.

1:48:331:48:35

Thank you very much for coming on

the programme. I'm going to start

1:48:351:48:39

with you Tim Martin. Are you

surprised that our list of

1:48:391:48:43

liabilities, what we owe, isn't a

matter of fact, but seems to be more

1:48:431:48:47

a matter of opinion?

Yes. I

understand that the legal position

1:48:471:48:55

from the Government is that we are

under no obligation to pay anything.

1:48:551:49:00

So it's one of those situations

where in a divorce you don't have to

1:49:001:49:04

pay anything, but you might do so to

be nice.

1:49:041:49:09

You clearly believe that legal

opinion, but it doesn't make sense,

1:49:091:49:12

does it? We have signed off what we

owe them as a member and now that

1:49:121:49:19

we're removing ourselves, we need to

settle up with our leucts?

Well, all

1:49:191:49:27

the public knows is the legal advice

that the Government has had and the

1:49:271:49:31

legal advice, which hasn't con

contradicted so far as I am aware,

1:49:311:49:35

is that we are under no legal

obligation to pay anything. We might

1:49:351:49:40

decide to do so anyway if we feel

there is some sort of moral

1:49:401:49:45

obligation, but that's a different

matter really.

OK. You spend a lot

1:49:451:49:51

of time talking to figures in

Brussels. What do the Europeans

1:49:511:49:56

think about this sticking point over

the bill?

Well, it's quite clear.

1:49:561:49:59

For them this is really a legal

issue, will the UK honour its

1:49:591:50:03

commitments or not? We won't see any

progress in the talks, the next

1:50:031:50:07

crunch point is in December unless

the UK decides to move and despite

1:50:071:50:11

the legal advice that Mr Martin just

quoted, I mean realistically, the

1:50:111:50:15

Government has conceded that it will

have to pay. So it's not contesting

1:50:151:50:19

the principle that it will have to

pay something, the only thing that

1:50:191:50:24

it is contesting is how big the

figure should be? Theresa May made a

1:50:241:50:28

suggestion of 20 billion and the EU

said well, that actually doesn't

1:50:281:50:32

cover your financial liabilities so

the kind of meeting, the Brexit

1:50:321:50:36

Cabinet meeting today, we think,

they are going to up the offer to 40

1:50:361:50:40

billion to see if that moves talks

forward. So this idea that the UK is

1:50:401:50:43

not going to pay anything is not the

Government's position and it's not

1:50:431:50:48

the position of Brexit supporting

Cabinet Ministers either.

1:50:481:50:51

Are you surprised that there isn't a

list of what Britain is supposed to

1:50:511:50:55

pay up because of what we have said

we will pay as a member?

There is a

1:50:551:50:59

list and the commission has, of

course, revealed what it contests in

1:50:591:51:03

the Brexit bill and the UK is going

through it line by line and trying

1:51:031:51:09

to diminish the overall sum and the

realisation is that the real issue

1:51:091:51:14

here is not the question of whether

or not the UK will pay, because even

1:51:141:51:19

though the sums sound large, 60

billion, 100 billion, in the grand

1:51:191:51:22

scheme of things, it is not that

much for the Government to pay

1:51:221:51:25

because if there is no deal the

Government would have a bigger

1:51:251:51:28

financial hit than the 60 billion,

20 billion, 40 billion. It's one

1:51:281:51:33

much more to do with domestic optics

because, of course, during the

1:51:331:51:39

campaign nobody said there would be

a Brexit bill or we would be having

1:51:391:51:43

to pay the EU to leave. So this is a

question of how can you portray this

1:51:431:51:48

at home without incensing the public

really?

Tim Martin you are a

1:51:481:51:52

successful businessman. You

negotiated lots of times and

1:51:521:51:54

successfully lots of times. What

would you advice to get the talks

1:51:541:51:57

going?

I'd say that we are under no

legal obligation to pay any money in

1:51:571:52:07

spite of what you have just heard.

It didn't amount to a legal

1:52:071:52:10

obligation. It is horse trading by

the EU. I would say we are perfectly

1:52:101:52:15

happy to trade on World Trade

Organisation rules, contrary to the

1:52:151:52:19

spin that will reduce food prices,

we will save £200 million per week

1:52:191:52:26

so the public knows unlike the

comments from your guest now that

1:52:261:52:29

that is one heck of a lot of money.

So I would say we want to be friends

1:52:291:52:33

with Europe. We want to trade with

Europe. We're not going to pay huge

1:52:331:52:38

sums of money and we're quite happy

to trade on World Trade Organisation

1:52:381:52:43

rules as we do with America, with

China, with India, etcetera.

1:52:431:52:50

OK. We will leave it there, thank

you. Thank you very much both of

1:52:501:52:54

you.

1:52:541:52:56

The American cult-leader

Charles Manson who masterminded

1:52:561:52:58

a killing spree in California

in 1969 has died in

1:52:581:53:01

prison at the age of 83.

1:53:011:53:04

Joining me is Cheish Merryweather

from the website CrimeViral.com.

1:53:491:53:56

Tell us why this, the way he

masterminded the killings has

1:53:561:54:00

fascinated people for decades?

I think it's definitely still that

1:54:001:54:07

fas narks with Charles Manson, if

you were to take one face of evil it

1:54:071:54:11

would be Charles Manson's face would

you see. He didn't commit any of the

1:54:111:54:14

murders, he just instructed young,

impressible, very intelligent, very

1:54:141:54:19

outgoing adults to go and commit the

worst crimes possible and I think it

1:54:191:54:22

still haunts still to this day a lot

of people.

1:54:221:54:26

How did you manage to manipulate

those well educated people?

Over the

1:54:261:54:31

time it was out in the outskirts in

California, they were very young

1:54:311:54:35

followers and he took them, he band

clerks and calendars and watchers,

1:54:351:54:43

they were following under net his

rule and he instructed them to go to

1:54:431:54:48

the house to carry out the crimes in

his words in the most gruesome way

1:54:481:54:52

that they could do so.

Most shocking

of all perhaps the killing of Susan

1:54:521:55:01

Tate who was eight-and-a-half months

pregnant?

Just two weeks away from

1:55:011:55:05

giving birth and it is the home

invasion aspect. Especially as it

1:55:051:55:09

was on the end of the decade of free

love, part of the hippie culture had

1:55:091:55:15

been born, the summer 1967, two

years later, it was definitely

1:55:151:55:21

Sharon Tate's murder, the wife of

Roman Polanski the depravity of it

1:55:211:55:33

was barbaric.

And what did the

followers think of Charles Manson?

1:55:331:55:38

Why were they willing to follow him

to such gruesome?

They looked up to

1:55:381:55:44

him as very god-like. He wasn't

domineering. He wasn't threatening

1:55:441:55:47

in anyway. Charles Manson himself,

he is 5'3" inches, so he wasn't a

1:55:471:55:56

very overpowering figure, but

certainly especially in a lot of his

1:55:561:55:59

interviews which you can find

online, he has that voice and he can

1:55:591:56:03

talk and he has got that sort of

charisma that what he says goes. He

1:56:031:56:07

has a lot of commentaries about

society and how society is wrong and

1:56:071:56:13

then especially if you were to read

the book Healther Scelter. They were

1:56:131:56:19

young impressionable adults and they

believed anything he said and they

1:56:191:56:23

left their families behind and they

were under his spell so to speak.

1:56:231:56:28

Thank you very much.

1:56:281:56:38

The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh

celebrate their 70th wedding

1:56:411:56:49

anniversary. Alun and Delphine

explained what it takes to have a

1:56:491:56:55

good and happy marriage.

She gives

and I take and we manage fine!

1:56:551:57:02

LAUGHTER

That's the sum of it.

Delphine, how

1:57:021:57:06

would you describe what it is like

being married for 70 years?

1:57:061:57:13

I don't know. It's, we've just got

on so well. We don't know the time

1:57:131:57:24

passes even. We're good friends. We

have laughs together. And it's just

1:57:241:57:33

normal to us that we should be

together.

Do you still love each

1:57:331:57:38

other?

Sorry?

1:57:381:57:44

How much do you still love each

other?

Oh, very much.

Yes.

Very

1:57:441:57:51

much, yes.

Alun?

1:57:511:57:56

Yes?

How much do you love Delphine?

Very. Of course, I do. More than I

1:57:561:58:04

ever did.

Alun and Delphine Richards

who celebrated their platinum

1:58:041:58:13

wedding anniversary this year.

1:58:131:58:15

On the programme tomorrow -

three remarkable survivors

1:58:151:58:27

of genocide from different

attrocities - join forces

1:58:271:58:27

to stand up to extremism.

1:58:271:58:27

You can't tell anybody today

what it was like.

1:58:321:58:36

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