21/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


21/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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welcome to the programme.

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Our top story today,

senior government ministers have

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agreed the UK should offer more

money for its divorce

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from the EU, but only if talks

about trade start soon.

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As Brexiteer is on the backbenches

threatened trouble over the bigger

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divorce Bill, Brexiteers in the

cabinet give the thumbs up to more

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money for Brussels.

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Also on the programme -

a group of outsourced workers

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at a London University are issuing

what could be a landmark legal claim

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to establish the "joint employer"

principle in UK law.

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The university is the entity that

essentially decides what their pay

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and terms and conditions

are going to be, and unless they can

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negotiate directly

with the university,

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they can't really negotiate over

their pay and terms and conditions.

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If successful, it could lead

to improved terms and conditions

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for some 3.3 million workers

in the UK.

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And three survivors of genocide join

forces to stand up to extremism

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in an exclusive interview

on this programme.

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We'll hear their stories

in around 15 minutes' time.

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Hello.

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Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11.

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We're going to talk

about Black Friday later,

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which as you may know,

is no longer just a day

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but more like several days.

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Christmas retailers

are doing their utmost

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to lure you in.

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Despite it only being the 21st of

November, where I live, some houses

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already have their Christmas lights

out the front. Fairy lights are on

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the front of their homes. Why, is my

question. It is the 21st of

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November. RU one of those

households. Please tell me you have

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done this. You are definitely in

danger of beating too soon. You can

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send me photographs, too.

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Use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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A little later in the

programme, we'll hear

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from the British explorer

Benedict Allen, who's back

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in the UK after being rescued

from the jungle in Papua New Guinea

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where he was trying to reach

a little-known tribe.

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Watch his first TV

interview after 10am.

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Our top story today.

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The BBC understands

that senior cabinet

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ministers have agreed Britain should

increase its financial offer

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to the EU as the UK leaves in 2019.

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But only of member states move on to

discussing trade. Theresa May met

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colleagues including Michael Gove

Boris Johnson last night and is

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expected to make a new offer to the

EU during talks later this week.

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Let's get more from our political

guru Norman Smith in Westminster.

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So Mrs may has managed to find some

kind of compromise between the

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Brexiteers in the cabinet and

remains.

There must be many mornings

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when she wakes up thinking, "Oh, my

gosh," but this morning she must be

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feeling chipper because she seems to

have bound in the big beasts of

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Brexit in the Cabinet to agree her

in backing for more money to leave

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the EU and that was by no means a

given because the Tory backbenchers

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are up in arms, describing it as a

ransom and we should not be paying

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ransom money to leave the EU and it

is possible Boris Johnson and

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Michael Gove could have decided to

ride the backbenches and torpedo Mrs

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May's move to give more cash to get

the trade talks going. Instead, they

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have said OK, we will pay more

money. A couple of conditions

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attached, though. One, they want it

to be absolutely guaranteed that the

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EU will respond by saying, "Fine, we

will now move on in the Brexit

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negotiations to discuss trade".

Secondly, they are saying that we

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must not agree a final sum until the

last minute when we can actually see

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the sort of trade deal we are going

to get and if we don't like it, we

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take the money off the table. For

Mrs May, good results so far, she's

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got the Brexiteers on board but in

terms of the offer, still lots of

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conditions attached.

Norman, for the

moment, thank you. More on that

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later.

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Rebecca Jones is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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Good morning.

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The governing Zanu-PF party

in Zimbabwe is expected to start

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impeachment proceedings

against Rober Mugabe today.

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He is accused of failing

to uphold the constitution

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and of giving his wife,

Grace, too much power.

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Zimbabwe's former vice president,

who was sacked by President Mugabe,

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has warned him to resign immediately

or face humiliation by Zimbabweans.

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Shingai Nyoka reports.

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Within days, the era

of President Robert Mugabe

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could finally be over.

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Zanu-PF already has the two-thirds

majority required to remove him,

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but loyalty is not guaranteed here,

and they've courted

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the opposition to support

the motion just in case.

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We expect the motion

to be moved tomorrow.

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The committee to be set up tomorrow.

Because the charges are so clear, we

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expect that by Wednesday, we should

be able to vote in parliament.

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The military, which took over

the country last week,

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appears to have a parallel

process under way.

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They say the long-time

leader is holding talks

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with his sacked vice-president,

Emmerson Mnangagwa, to map out

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an amicable way forward.

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The sacking of Mnangagwa, a military

ally, ignited the takeover.

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On Sunday, Zanu-PF fired Mugabe

as its leader and installed

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Mnangagwa in his place.

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The Zimbabwean defence and security

services are encouraged

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by new developments which include

contact between the president

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and the former vice-president,

comrade Emmerson Mnangagwa,

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who is expected

in the country shortly.

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Thereafter, the nation will be

advised of the outcome

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of the talks between the two.

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But the President remains in charge,

even though he is still

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under military guard.

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Whatever the outcomes

of the two processes,

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his leadership is not likely

to last much longer.

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Shingai Nyoka, BBC News, Harare.

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Teenager Gaia Pope had "struggled"

with health issues before her death,

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according to her father.

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Police are treating

the 19-year-old's death

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as "unexplained" after her body

was found in a field

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in Dorset on Saturday.

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Police released three

people who were arrested

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on suspicion of her murder.

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They will face no further action.

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Iranian President Hassan Rouhani

declared the end of Islamic State

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on Tuesday, in an address broadcast

live on state TV.

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Iran has been part of a coalition

with the Syria now the and Russia in

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the fight against IS for several

years.

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More than 1,000 members

of Iran's Revolutionary Guards

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have been killed in Syria and Iraq.

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The American talk show host,

Charlie Rose, has apologised

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for what he called "inappropriate

behaviour" after allegations

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of sexual harassment.

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His various shows have been

suspended, following a piece

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in the Washington Post

in which eight women

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accused him of harassment.

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Staff employed by the outsourcing

company Cordant are asking a

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tribunal to rule that they have the

right to negotiate better terms and

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conditions with the University of

London, where they work. The

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landmark case has implications for

more than 3 million workers in the

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UK's business services industry who

are hired through facilities

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companies. The university says it

does not employ any of the workers

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and does not accept their concept of

joint employment.

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TV presenter Paul Hollywood

has accused his former

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Bake Off colleagues -

including fellow judge, Mary Berry -

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of "abandoning" the show.

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Mary Berry, along with presenters

Mel and Sue, left the programme

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when it moved to Channel 4.

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In an interview with

the Radio Times, Hollywood said

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the criticism he received

after his decision to stay

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with the show was "not fun"

and that he felt he "became the most

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hated man in the country".

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Finally, watch this.

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A camera operator who waited 40

minutes to film a stadium demolition

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has been thwarted at the last moment

by some unfortunate bus scheduling.

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The Georgia Dome in Atlanta,

which hosted the Super Bowl

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and the Olympics, was reduced to

rubble by a controlled demolition,

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but one spectator missed

the crucial moment.

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Get out of the way, Bath!

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You really couldn't make it up!

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That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

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More at 9.30am.

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I'm amazed he only swore twice. He

had one job that day. On the Brexit

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divorce Bill and the factories may

has agreed with her cabinet that

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Britain should offer more money in

order to get trade talks underway

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with the EU before Britain leaves,

Ellie on Facebook says," it should

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cost us. We have been taking more

money than we have been putting in

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and then we turn around and tell

them to do one? This referendum was

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a complete joke. It's never

discussed these kind of conditions

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before they took it to the people".

Sean on Facebook says, "Freedom and

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new opportunities cost money". On

Christmas lights, LP says, "I can

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put my Christmas decorations up any

time I like or not even bother to

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take them down. Victoria, stop being

a fascist in deciding what others

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should do because it pleases you". I

think that's taking it a bit too

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far, just saying, where I live, in

the suburbs, people already have

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their fairy lights outside a house

and I'm just confused.

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning,

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use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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Let's get some sport.

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Olly Foster is with us

this morning and it

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looks as though Mike Ashley has

found a buyer for Newcastle United.

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Well, let's take it slowly! Good

morning. There is a bid on the table

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which is a start. Remember, you put

the club up for sale last month. He

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has been there ten years, a very

divisive figure, the fans don't like

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him, not putting enough investment

back into the club. They've been

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relegated twice they are currently

just about keeping their heads above

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water in the Premier League. But

spotted in the crowd after he had

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put the club up to their was Amanda

Staveley, who fronts PCP capital

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partners. She was in the crowd,

she's incredibly influential, based

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in the Middle East, and she brokered

the deal for Sheikh Mansoor and the

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Abu Dhabi family to take over at

Manchester City about ten years ago.

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£210 million, they bought Manchester

City for and we know what they have

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done since then. The offer that is

believed to be on the table is

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somewhere in the region of 300

million, some way short of Mike

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Ashley's asking price of about 380

million. He is looking to triple the

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money he paid to buy Newcastle ten

years ago. Remember, he was offering

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a deal to basically by the club on

the never-never, kind of a hire

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purchase. He's that desperate to get

rid of it. It could be Amanda

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Staveley and her PCP capital

partners and possible Middle East

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investors behind that as well. A bid

is on the table but we are waiting

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to see what deal if any can be done.

The first Ashes Test starts on

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Thursday and lots of the pre-match

chat is still about Ben Stokes not

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being there for England.

Yes, the

England players don't want to be

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talking about Ben Stokes, the

match-winning all-rounder who is

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still in this country but he has

been doing that, footage surfaced

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recently, in the last 24 hours, on

social media, of him bowling and

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batting in the nets at Durham. He is

waiting for the police investigation

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into him to conclude the C if he

will face any charges for his part

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in a brawl outside a nightclub in

Bristol. -- to C of E will face.

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They are trying not to talk about it

but when Ben Stokes is doing that,

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seemingly ready to go and join them

in Australia should he get the

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chance, of course, there are

questions about it and this is

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Alastair Cook's response.

Well,

you're talking about it.

It is a

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news line for us.

Of course, and we

understand, I understand the game.

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It has been a while since the

incident. Certainly as a player, in

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the first couple of weeks after, it

was what everyone was talking about,

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it was not great and we pretty much

accepted it was unlikely that Ben

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would be here. You can't always pin

your hopes on one guy. If there is a

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bonus of him making the trip at some

stage, that would be great but I can

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honestly say it has not been spoken

about in the changing room. It's no

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good for us to talk about that.

We

will see, it is overnight Wednesday

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into Thursday that the Test match

starts and you will be able to

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follow it on the BBC.

An early

contender for goal of the season

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scored by Chelsea Blair.

Brighton

against oak was a draw and this

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Chelsea player joined when he was

12, he is still on their books but

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he has been farmed out to the Dutch

first vision, playing for Vitesse,

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has played all season, aged 22 and

scored his first goal at the

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weekend. Look at that. Amazing goal!

Why doesn't he celebrate? Because

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that was his goalkeeper, and that,

Victoria, is an own goal!

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Astonishing. They lost 4-2. De Boer

is very well regarded by Chelsea and

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Vitesse but not for that. -- Dabo is

well respected.

More sport

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throughout the morning.

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This morning, three survivors

of genocide have joined forces

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to stand up to extremism

in an exclusive interview

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on this programme.

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Let me introduce you to

Kemal Pervanic, who survived a

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concentration camp

during the Bosnian war.

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The former Bosnian Serb military

commander Ratko Mladic will find out

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tomorrow whether he's convicted

of crimes against humanity.

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He's accused of committing

genocide during that

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conflict of the 1990s.

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Eric Murangwa Eugene

lost 35 family members

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in the Rwandan genoicide.

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Between April and June 1994,

an estimated 800,000 Rwandans

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were killed in the space

of 100 days.

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Most of the dead were Tutsis,

and most of those who perpetrated

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the violence were Hutus.

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And Ruth Barnett, who fled

Nazi Germany as a child

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on the Kindertransport,

an organised rescue effort that took

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place prior to the outbreak

of the Second World War,

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taking children from

Germany to Britain.

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We're also joined by Adam Wagner,

human rights lawyer and founder

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of Rights Info, who's bought

the three of them together.

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The nature of what we're going to be

discuss will be graphic and raw. Let

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me begin with you Kamal if I may.

Tell us about how you came to be in

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a concentration camp in the 1990s?

Well, no one ever expects to end up

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in a concentration camp. So, I had a

normal life. My family lived in

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rural Bosnia. The community was

mixed. The relationships in the

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community were good. Until the

second half of the 1980s when former

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Yugoslavia, the country that I was

born in, that Bosnia was part of

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from Yugoslavia was experiencing a

serious unemployment and certain

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individuals turned up on the

political scene and started dividing

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us. They were saying that we could

no longer live together because we

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were too different and then not many

years later, we had terrible wars

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and the Bosnian War. I ended up in a

concentration camp. My village was

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attacked by my neighbours. My former

school mates. When I ended up in the

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camp, I recognised so many people,

classmates, two teachers, it was

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unimaginable.

And when you say you recognised so

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many people, do you mean fellow

prisoners, or do you mean people who

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were in control of you and

ultimately tortured you?

Well,

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whoever happened to be in the region

ended up in one of the three camps

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in my town, but also the people who

perpetrated that violence against us

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were our neighbours. So, it was very

personal. We knew each other. And

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just a couple of years earlier, you

know, when I was in high school, I

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could never imagine that one of my

favourite high school teachers would

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end up being one of the

interrogators and you know, my

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brother was almost killed on his

orders.

It is unbelievable and

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horrific. Did you ever feel that you

could say to him, "You were my

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teacher. I really liked you."

I

wouldn't dare.

No.

I wouldn't dare

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look at him in that room because it

could have ended my life, but I was

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able to go back to Bosnia some years

later and I had a chance to talk to

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him.

I'm going to ask you about that

in a moment, before I bring in Ruth

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and Eric and Adam, what kind of

things did you witness in that

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concentration camp?

Lots of

gratuitous violence and that

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disturbs me to this day. It just,

you never expect that fellow human

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beings, torturing and killing other

fellow human beings for pleasure,

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for sport. And they were just

ordinary human beings like myself

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and like yourself.

And we're seeing

pictures of some of them now. I

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wonder if I could bring in you Ruth

if I may. You came to Britain aged

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four on the Kindertransport over to

the UK from Germany. You came from a

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Jewish family. Tell me what was

happening to you and your family and

0:19:190:19:26

your community back then?

Well, the

Jewish community were used to

0:19:260:19:36

persecution time and again and they

simply thought if they kept their

0:19:360:19:39

heads down and didn't make waves, it

would pass over, up until the night

0:19:390:19:49

of November, 9th 1938 when in every

city, right across Germany and

0:19:490:19:56

Austria, the crowds rioted and

smashed up Jewish property and

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Jewish men were arrested and thrown

into labour camp. The writing was on

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the wall that it wasn't going to

blow over and because of that

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terrible attack, my parents made the

very difficult decision to send my

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seven-year-old brother and myself on

the trains that were organised and

0:20:270:20:33

later called the Kindertransport to

safety in England. We didn't see our

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parents for ten years. We were

raised in three foster families and

0:20:420:20:48

a hostel during that time.

Your

brother, as you said was a few years

0:20:480:20:53

older than you. Do you think you

would have survived if it wasn't for

0:20:530:20:59

him?

I don't think I would have

coped in what felt like the world

0:20:590:21:06

had been ripped away like a carpet

from under my feet and I was

0:21:060:21:12

floundering in a totally mad world

that made no sense. If I hadn't had

0:21:120:21:18

my seven-year-old brother to make

sense of it, for me, even though, of

0:21:180:21:23

course, he didn't know what was

going on and a lot of it was

0:21:230:21:29

nonsense, he had a knack of calming

me down and of course, I was

0:21:290:21:34

important to him as I represented a

link with his parents who had told

0:21:340:21:40

him to look after his little sister.

That's how we survived because we

0:21:400:21:46

had each other.

Eric, hello. Welcome

to the programme.

Thank you.

You

0:21:460:21:52

were an international footballer

when you lived through genocide in

0:21:520:21:56

Rwanda. It claimed at least 35

members of your family, but you

0:21:560:22:01

think it maybe more?

Yes, indeed.

Yes, when the genocide happened in

0:22:010:22:09

Rwanda I was a football player,

playing for alclub which is the

0:22:090:22:16

biggest football club in Rwanda and

on the first day of genocide on 7th

0:22:160:22:26

April 1994, I escaped death because

one of the soldiers who came into my

0:22:260:22:34

flat where I was living with a

friend of mine, to kill us

0:22:340:22:46

recognised me through the photo of

my football team and from that

0:22:460:22:50

moment he spared my life and the

life of my team-mate and then moved

0:22:500:23:02

from that flat and went to stay with

team-mates of mine who were living

0:23:020:23:07

about a mile away from where I was

and I spent about four, six weeks

0:23:070:23:15

with this group of my former

team-mates and...

Were you

0:23:150:23:19

effectively trapped for that period

of time?

I could not even venture

0:23:190:23:28

outside of the house. I could not do

anything other than staying indoors

0:23:280:23:37

because at that time the whole

country had gone mad.

And you were

0:23:370:23:42

effectively waiting for a knock on

the door are you, or the house to be

0:23:420:23:46

attacked or to be under siege?

That

was life for the whole time. You

0:23:460:23:55

were always waiting for someone to

come in and take you away and kill

0:23:550:23:59

you because you were also constantly

hearing neighbours being killed,

0:23:590:24:08

gunshots, going off here and there

and when you hear that, you know

0:24:080:24:15

what is happening and those who are

able to go out would come and tell

0:24:150:24:19

us what was going on outside and the

first time I saw someone being

0:24:190:24:28

killed was on the second day of

genocide. At that time, we had not

0:24:280:24:38

yet been confided into our house, we

could still move around the

0:24:380:24:43

neighbourhoods. So, one of the

neighbours, a man was brought

0:24:430:24:56

somewhere from around the corner and

he was accused of having been seen

0:24:560:25:03

wearing a T-shirt with a picture of

our former PF leader and for that

0:25:030:25:14

reason, the man was escorted a

couple of yards from where we were

0:25:140:25:19

and he was brutally killed. They

were using whips and stones.

You

0:25:190:25:30

witnessed this?

I saw this with my

own eyes.

And what impact does that

0:25:300:25:36

continue to have on you now?

It has

impacted me in many ways because for

0:25:360:25:44

many years I could not speak about

experience. I decided to leave my

0:25:440:25:52

country and came into this country

mainly because it was very hard to

0:25:520:26:01

go on and live a normal life with

all the memories around you, but

0:26:010:26:11

thankfully I think the sort of

survivor experience I had with the

0:26:110:26:16

help of my team-mates and the role

the sport had in that has been very

0:26:160:26:25

helpful for me to overcome that type

of trauma and today I think I find

0:26:250:26:33

it normal to speak about my

experience because I try to see the

0:26:330:26:40

positive side of it and leave the

negative side a little bit behind.

0:26:400:26:46

OK. I had want to bring in Adam, if

I may. You have brought Kamal and

0:26:460:26:52

Eric and Ruth together. Why?

Well,

thank you very much for having us

0:26:520:26:55

and thanks also to Ruth and Kamal

and Eric for sharing their stories.

0:26:550:27:01

We're trying to bring across the

simple message with the fight hate

0:27:010:27:06

with rights campaign which is that

genocide doesn't happen overnight.

0:27:060:27:11

It starts with the very basic cuts

to liberties, that happen usually

0:27:110:27:16

over many months or years and we

don't, we shouldn't wait for

0:27:160:27:20

concentration camps and secret

police to stand up. We have got to

0:27:200:27:23

stand up now. Stand up to basic

discriminations. Stand up to

0:27:230:27:27

breaches of Human Rights, not

necessarily in other countries, but

0:27:270:27:30

we need to do that too, but in our

neighbourhoods. Close to home in the

0:27:300:27:35

small places and that's really what

the campaign is about.

Are you

0:27:350:27:40

saying that's happening, some rights

are being whittled away in Britain

0:27:400:27:44

now for example?

Yes. We've reached

a bit of a turning point and one of

0:27:440:27:49

the reasons this film had over

500,000 views in a few days, it's

0:27:490:27:55

because it's strike ago cord this

idea that across the world we are

0:27:550:27:58

seeing the rise again of far-right

movements in the United States...

0:27:580:28:01

Which is different to rights being

whittled away. Do you have examples

0:28:010:28:05

of that?

Well, that's how it starts

and you can see in the k UK an

0:28:050:28:10

atmosphere, I'm not saying there is

going to be concentration camps here

0:28:100:28:13

in a year's time, but you can see an

atmosphere of withdrawing from these

0:28:130:28:18

international institutions that we

created after the Second World War,

0:28:180:28:23

we the Brits created the European

Convention on Human Rights and the

0:28:230:28:27

international courts, we used to

lead those institutions and now

0:28:270:28:30

we're withdrawing.

I don't think the

Prime Minister said we're going to

0:28:300:28:33

withdraw. As Prime Minister she has

not said we are going to withdraw

0:28:330:28:37

from the European Convention on

Human Rights?

Theresa May is the

0:28:370:28:39

first Prime Minister ever of the UK

to say I want, I think we should

0:28:390:28:43

withdraw and I think they have put

it on the back burner because of

0:28:430:28:46

Brexit and that's what she said. She

said it does nothing for our

0:28:460:28:51

security.

As Home Secretary she

criticised it?

She criticised it as

0:28:510:28:55

Prime Minister as well and I think

the direction of travel is quite

0:28:550:28:58

clear in the UK now is that we,

there is public support for moving

0:28:580:29:07

away from the international ideas as

we see from Brexit and there is

0:29:070:29:11

moving away from Human Rights values

and ideals which we have always led

0:29:110:29:15

and I think that's what we are

trying to get across, at rights

0:29:150:29:20

infoe with the fight hate with

rights campaign.

Kamal, you said you

0:29:200:29:25

went back to talk to that high

school teacher who had been

0:29:250:29:28

effectively one of your, who you had

witnessed forking turing others and

0:29:280:29:33

who interrogated you. What did you

say to that man?

Because I never

0:29:330:29:38

left of my own will, I have this

need to go back and one of the

0:29:380:29:41

things I wanted to do is to find him

and hopefully get some answers from

0:29:410:29:47

him because he was such a nice guy,

you know, I could understand thugs

0:29:470:29:52

taking part in what happened in the

concentration camp, but I couldn't

0:29:520:29:56

understand how this very nice guy

could become so nasty. And when I

0:29:560:30:03

first saw him, he knew that we had

some shared past because of my name.

0:30:030:30:08

He knew that I was his former

students. So we agreed on a

0:30:080:30:12

particular day, but when I went to

his school, he wasn't there. But I

0:30:120:30:16

kept going back. It was really,

really uncomfortable for me and I

0:30:160:30:21

eventually managed to catch him one

day and he wasn't prepared to talk

0:30:210:30:27

and I grabbed his arm and he said,

"Don't do that." I said you

0:30:270:30:31

integrated me too and his jaw

dropped and we started talking. He

0:30:310:30:35

didn't feel comfortable. But at the

same time, he didn't want to accept

0:30:350:30:40

any responsibility for his

involvement in what went on in the

0:30:400:30:44

region and in the camp.

What did you

want to know from him specifically?

0:30:440:30:52

Why him? I just wanted to

understand, why is it that

0:30:520:30:58

ordinarily, very nice people become

terrible perpetrators?

I wonder...

0:30:580:31:04

That is a profound question. Bruce,

what would be your answer to that?

0:31:040:31:09

Why do ordinary, nice people...

Change?

Well, I studied psychology

0:31:090:31:16

and I think we all need to accept

that we are born with the capacity

0:31:160:31:20

to become perpetrators. We have

demons in our human nature but we

0:31:200:31:27

also have angels. The question

really is, why do we tend to nurture

0:31:270:31:36

the demons rather than the angels?

So as far as I understand anybody

0:31:360:31:42

can become a perpetrator, and

anybody can become a rescuer. I

0:31:420:31:52

think it depends hugely on the moral

climate of the earliest upbringing

0:31:520:31:57

in family or wherever a child is

raised.

I think what Kemal describes

0:31:570:32:11

is pretty much what I experienced

and what went on in Rwanda. The

0:32:110:32:18

genocide there was committed by

friends against friends, neighbours

0:32:180:32:24

against neighbours, and to some

extent, members of the same family.

0:32:240:32:34

It is harder to understand how

someone who grew up with -- you grew

0:32:340:32:41

up with, you spent all your time

playing, going to school together

0:32:410:32:46

and in just one go, they turn and

become a monster and want to kill

0:32:460:32:54

you. Looking at how that developed

in Rwanda, how it happened, it has

0:32:540:33:03

something to do with education, with

how society is educated, is treated.

0:33:030:33:16

And especially the power of

leadership, the power of leadership

0:33:160:33:23

is so much important in how people

tend to change and become something

0:33:230:33:28

else.

That is why I think Writes

Info is so important because this is

0:33:280:33:39

a feature of all the genocide I've

studied, in the Holocaust villages,

0:33:390:33:44

particularly in Eastern Europe, set

about neighbours murdering

0:33:440:33:49

neighbours, long before the Nazis

actually reached. As soon as they

0:33:490:33:54

knew they were coming, it began. I

think human rights and Rights Info

0:33:540:34:02

is the way forward but we need to

focus on rights having

0:34:020:34:10

responsibilities and we have a

society which is very reluctant to

0:34:100:34:12

take responsibility.

Can I just say?

I wanted to understand, now I know,

0:34:120:34:22

basically everything that happened

to me was because there was a slow

0:34:220:34:26

erosion of human rights over a

period of time. Propaganda was used

0:34:260:34:29

extensively for many, many years.

During that process, I was

0:34:290:34:34

identified with a particular group

and members of this group were

0:34:340:34:38

demonised and then it became

possible for my fellow human beings

0:34:380:34:42

to see me as a monster and it is

much easier to kill monsters than

0:34:420:34:47

human beings. So this is why, you

know, we need human rights to be

0:34:470:34:52

enshrined in law, to protect

everyone equally and right now, I

0:34:520:35:00

can see some people can dismiss

this, I can see very strong

0:35:000:35:03

parallels in what is happening in

the West, when we have the most

0:35:030:35:07

powerful man in the world demonising

particular groups, calling Mexicans

0:35:070:35:16

rapists and what will his ordinary,

fellow American citizens think? This

0:35:160:35:21

is why we need things like the

campaign to bring communities

0:35:210:35:25

together, to stand up against this

kind of dehumanisation and

0:35:250:35:27

demonisation.

Human rights are in

law.

We do have human rights in law

0:35:270:35:35

in this country, the Human Rights

Act enshrined the European

0:35:350:35:38

Convention on human rights into

British law.

But we need it

0:35:380:35:44

enshrined in people's consciousness.

Adam, the use of the word genocide,

0:35:440:35:48

human rights groups say there is a

genocide going on right now in

0:35:480:35:52

Myanmar, in Syria, in sedan. Why is

it important to use that word? -- in

0:35:520:35:57

Sudan.

Once you use the word, it

creates a whole different

0:35:570:36:03

international reaction and I know

Eric speaks very movingly about the

0:36:030:36:06

failure to use that word in Rwanda

for a long time, including by

0:36:060:36:09

Britain. Words do change behaviour

and we have got to a point where 70

0:36:090:36:17

years ago, there was not an idea of

crimes against humanity or about

0:36:170:36:21

genocide and that is one of the

issues we have spoken about in this

0:36:210:36:24

campaign. Now we have at least the

beginnings of an international

0:36:240:36:27

system which identifies those

horrors, early and late, and tries

0:36:270:36:32

to intervene but we need, the

British people need to stand up and

0:36:320:36:36

lead that system, or be beacons in

the system, like we once were.

OK,

0:36:360:36:44

let me read some messages. Emma

says, effectively, "Thank you for

0:36:440:36:50

sharing your stories". She says, "I

can't even imagine, it is so sad to

0:36:500:36:55

hear what you went through"

0:36:550:36:56

can't even imagine, it is so sad to

hear what you went through". This

0:36:560:36:58

tweet says, "That guy just said

Brexit was the first step towards

0:36:580:37:03

genocide. What?" And this tweet

says, "Much respect to you for

0:37:030:37:08

speaking this morning". Thank you

for joining us. Thank you for coming

0:37:080:37:11

on the programme.

0:37:110:37:13

Still to come:

0:37:130:37:15

a group of outsourced workers

at London University are launching

0:37:150:37:18

a legal claim which could lead

to improved terms and conditions

0:37:180:37:22

for around 3million

workers in the UK.

0:37:220:37:25

We will talk about their case in the

next few minutes.

0:37:250:37:28

We'll be with the British explorer

Benedict Allen who is now back

0:37:280:37:31

in the country after going missing

in a remote area

0:37:310:37:33

of Papua New Guinea.

0:37:330:37:36

Time for the latest news with

Rebecca Jones. The headlines this

0:37:410:37:46

morning.

0:37:460:37:47

The BBC understands that senior

Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

0:37:470:37:49

should offer to pay more money

to leave the EU,

0:37:490:37:53

but only if member states agree next

month to move on to

0:37:530:37:56

discussing trade.

0:37:560:37:57

Theresa May met colleagues

including Michael Gove

0:37:570:37:59

and Boris Johnson last night,

and is expected to make

0:37:590:38:02

the new offer to the EU

during talks later this week.

0:38:020:38:11

Robert Mugabe is expected to face

the start of impeachment proceedings

0:38:110:38:16

today after refusing to step down as

president of Zimbabwe. The country's

0:38:160:38:21

ruling Zanu-PF party said the

process could take just two days to

0:38:210:38:24

complete. The 93-year-old, who

remains under armed guard, is

0:38:240:38:28

accused of allowing his wife to

seize power illegally. Last night,

0:38:280:38:32

the military suggested a plan was

emerging for the transfer of power.

0:38:320:38:38

Staff employed by the outsourcing

company Cordant are asking a

0:38:380:38:40

tribunal to rule that

they have the right

0:38:400:38:45

to negotiate better terms

and conditions with the University

0:38:450:38:47

of London, where they work.

0:38:470:38:48

The landmark case

has implications for

0:38:480:38:50

more than 3 million workers

in the UK's business services

0:38:500:38:53

industry who are hired

through facilities companies.

0:38:530:38:56

The university says it does not

employ any of the workers

0:38:560:38:59

and does not accept their concept

of joint employment.

0:38:590:39:06

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

0:39:060:39:08

Here's some sport now with Olly.

0:39:080:39:11

England batsman Alastair Cook says

they have pretty much accepted that

0:39:140:39:18

Ben Stokes won't play a part in the

Ashes Series which starts on

0:39:180:39:22

Thursday. The all-rounder posted

pictures of himself in the nets at

0:39:220:39:27

Durham yesterday as he awaits the

outcome of a police investigation

0:39:270:39:29

into a brawl outside a nightclub. He

was arrested on suspicion of causing

0:39:290:39:34

actual bodily harm. The women's

Ashes Series comes to an end today.

0:39:340:39:38

Australia have already retain the

Ashes, but England can level the

0:39:380:39:43

series if they win the final T20 in

Canberra but they are up against it,

0:39:430:39:47

Beth Mooney carrying the bat through

the Australian innings, hitting an

0:39:470:39:50

unbeaten 117. England need 179 to

win. Unbeaten in five Premier League

0:39:500:39:56

matches after their 2-2 draw at home

against Stoke. They came from behind

0:39:560:40:00

twice and they are still in the top

top half of the table. A formal

0:40:000:40:04

offer has been made by Newcastle --

to buy Newcastle United, three had

0:40:040:40:09

million pounds from an investment

firm, which is believed to be some

0:40:090:40:12

way short of Mike Ashley's asking

price. He put the club up for sale

0:40:120:40:16

last month. I will be back with a

full update after 10am.

0:40:160:40:22

Thank you. It is 9:40am, thank you

for joining us.

0:40:220:40:26

Teenager Gaia Pope had "struggled"

with health issues before she died,

0:40:260:40:29

her father has said.

0:40:290:40:30

Police are treating

the 19-year-old's death

0:40:300:40:31

as "unexplained" after her body

was found in a field

0:40:310:40:34

near Swanage on Saturday.

0:40:340:40:37

Our correspondent Navtej

Johal can tell us more.

0:40:370:40:41

What else did her father said?

Victoria, this has been such a sad

0:40:410:40:46

story and yesterday the father of

19-year-old Gaia Pope, Richard

0:40:460:40:50

Sutherland, who was understand be

very emotional, said his daughter

0:40:500:40:53

had had a lot of issues and clearly

just could not cope with that. One

0:40:530:40:56

of the issues was her severe

epilepsy, with which he said she was

0:40:560:41:00

struggling badly but he said his

daughter had also had happy moments

0:41:000:41:03

right up to the end of her life,

despite health problems. Last night

0:41:030:41:09

on the BBC, paid tribute to his

daughter.

0:41:090:41:13

I think...I see it as,

our beautiful bird has flown.

0:41:130:41:15

She's not with us in body,

0:41:150:41:18

but she remains in our hearts and

with us for ever.

0:41:180:41:21

So while the loss of her

in one way is immeasurable,

0:41:210:41:25

we will treasure her

and honour her always.

0:41:250:41:29

And I say, Gaia, you're not in pain

any more, my darling.

0:41:290:41:34

We love you.

0:41:340:41:35

I love you.

0:41:350:41:40

Victoria, your audience will

remember that Gaia went missing on

0:41:400:41:45

the 7th of November and it took

police 11 days before her body was

0:41:450:41:49

found on Saturday. Hundreds of

people volunteered in the search,

0:41:490:41:54

searching the hills above the

coastal town of Swanage in Dorset

0:41:540:41:57

where she went missing. Three people

were arrested and released during

0:41:570:42:01

the enquiry. They will face no

further action, police have told us.

0:42:010:42:05

But they also say now there is

nothing to suggest anyone else was

0:42:050:42:09

involved in Gaia's death and they

are treating it as unexplained. The

0:42:090:42:14

family are distraught at the amount

of time it has taken for police to

0:42:140:42:18

find her body but Dorset Police have

responded, saying it had an

0:42:180:42:22

obligation to follow every possible

line of enquiry. The force is now

0:42:220:42:26

awaiting the results of a toxicology

test and meanwhile, the family have

0:42:260:42:31

now asked to be left alone to

grieve.

Thank you.

0:42:310:42:35

Coming up, British explorer

Benedict Allen is home after going

0:42:350:42:37

missing in Papua New Guinea.

0:42:370:42:38

We'll be live with him

later this morning.

0:42:380:42:42

A group of 75 workers,

including porters and receptionists,

0:42:430:42:49

are going to a tribunal

to try to win more rights at work.

0:42:490:42:52

As outsourced employees -

in this case they're supplied

0:42:520:42:55

to the University of London

by an outside company -

0:42:550:43:00

they don't receive the same benefits

as those employed directly.

0:43:000:43:03

They say the university should

be a "joint employer",

0:43:030:43:06

which mean they would get the same

pension and holiday pay rights

0:43:060:43:09

as those directly employed

the University of London.

0:43:090:43:11

The university disagrees.

0:43:110:43:17

If the case is successful,

it could affect around 3 million

0:43:170:43:19

outsourced workers in the UK.

0:43:190:43:21

Our legal affairs correspondent

Clive Coleman has been

0:43:210:43:23

finding out about the case.

0:43:230:43:24

Henry Chango Lopez's

day starts early,

0:43:240:43:27

with the first of his two jobs.

0:43:270:43:30

I woke up at four o'clock

this morning, travelled

0:43:300:43:33

one hour to Southwark.

0:43:330:43:36

And here I am to do my

two hours of cleaning.

0:43:360:43:39

Henry is one of many

workers who are outsourced.

0:43:390:43:43

In other words, he's employed

by a facilities company that can

0:43:430:43:47

provide his services to another

company or organisation.

0:43:470:43:51

At 7.30, I'm at the University

of London to do my job as a porter.

0:43:510:43:56

Many big organisations outsource,

which means that instead

0:43:560:44:01

of employing cleaners,

security guards and other

0:44:010:44:05

often low-paid staff,

they pay a facilities company

0:44:050:44:08

to provide these workers.

0:44:080:44:12

So, while maintaining control over

the way people work and often

0:44:120:44:15

setting their pay and conditions,

they can avoid some

0:44:150:44:19

of the legal responsibilities

of being an employer.

0:44:190:44:23

That can mean far worse pensions,

holiday and sick pay

0:44:230:44:27

for the outsourced workers.

0:44:270:44:31

Now a group including Henry,

employed by the facilities company

0:44:310:44:36

Cordant and supplied

to London University,

0:44:360:44:40

are seeking a tribunal

ruling that the university

0:44:400:44:43

is recognised along with Cordant

as their joint employer.

0:44:430:44:47

The union supporting

the workers says that there

0:44:470:44:50

is an important principle at stake.

0:44:500:44:54

The outsourced workers

at the University of London,

0:44:540:44:57

for example the security guards,

for all intents and purposes

0:44:570:45:00

work for the university.

0:45:000:45:01

The university is the entity that

essentially decides what their pay

0:45:010:45:05

and terms and conditions

are going to be.

0:45:050:45:07

Unless they can negotiate directly

with the university,

0:45:070:45:11

they can't really negotiate over

their pay and terms and conditions.

0:45:110:45:14

UK law has never recognised

the concept that workers could have

0:45:140:45:18

joint employers for the purpose

0:45:180:45:20

of negotiating their

terms and conditions.

0:45:200:45:24

If it did, the consequences

could be huge.

0:45:240:45:27

It would be enormous.

0:45:270:45:30

There would be about 3.5 million

outsourced employees whose terms

0:45:300:45:32

and conditions would improve

0:45:320:45:35

because now they would be

on the same terms and conditions

0:45:350:45:37

as the people they work alongside

every day,

0:45:370:45:39

but who are directly employed.

0:45:390:45:40

And for the employers, of course,

there would also be an impact

0:45:400:45:43

because it would be more expensive

to improve those

0:45:430:45:45

terms and conditions.

0:45:450:45:47

Henry says that for him,

it could be a game-changer.

0:45:470:45:51

If the law recognised the University

of London as my employer,

0:45:510:45:55

my life would change massively,

0:45:550:45:59

because I wouldn't have to do two

jobs as I am doing at the moment,

0:45:590:46:03

where I have to wake up at five

o'clock in the morning every day

0:46:030:46:06

in order to make ends meet.

0:46:060:46:09

In terms of pensions,

I would be able to retire

0:46:090:46:11

with a good pension,

not the one I have at the moment.

0:46:110:46:15

In a statement, the University of

London said:

0:46:150:46:18

For Henry Chango Lopez,

for now at least, the early mornings

0:46:370:46:41

and the long days continue.

0:46:410:46:44

We can now speak to Glen Jacques,

one of the subcontracted

0:46:550:46:58

workers who is bringing this case.

0:46:580:46:59

He works as a security officer

for the University of London.

0:46:590:47:02

Danny Millum is branch secretary

of the University of London IWGB.

0:47:020:47:05

He also works at the University

of London as a full-time employee.

0:47:050:47:08

Melanie Eusebe is a business

analyst and professor

0:47:080:47:10

at Hull International

Business School.

0:47:100:47:11

Daphne Romney QC

is a barrister specialising

0:47:110:47:13

in employment law who

you saw in Clive's film.

0:47:130:47:19

You have been subcontracted by the

university to provide security. Have

0:47:190:47:23

you always been in the subcontracted

position?

No, when I first started

0:47:230:47:27

working at the university I was

employed directly by the university

0:47:270:47:31

and for the first two years I was

employed by them, then the contract

0:47:310:47:35

companies took over. Soy was

tunedied over to the contract

0:47:350:47:41

company. We lost our pension and the

university pay a good deal with the

0:47:410:47:48

pension scheme so when that stopped

we lost that so we had to make our

0:47:480:47:54

own way with the pensions. That's

one of the reasons I took the job

0:47:540:47:57

because it was one I was going to

hope to stay there for the rest of

0:47:570:48:00

my days and get a good pension and

that was out of the window and there

0:48:000:48:04

were some people who had been

working there for 30 years and they

0:48:040:48:07

have lost that pension now.

So for a

number of years you have been in the

0:48:070:48:12

position of working for the outside

company, working alongside full-time

0:48:120:48:16

employees of the university, but

without the pension contributions,

0:48:160:48:19

without the holiday pay, the sick

pay, without the same rights. What

0:48:190:48:23

does that feel like?

Well, to be

honest, with my point of view I was

0:48:230:48:29

tupeed over so some of the

conditions were the same. It is

0:48:290:48:31

mainly the pension, but it is the

other contract staff they lost

0:48:310:48:35

everything. They were getting sick

pay and they had to fight for that,

0:48:350:48:41

everything to match what the direct

employees was getting was by the

0:48:410:48:44

unions fighting for it because they

had lost it all. The only thing is

0:48:440:48:47

the contract company that first took

over, we were treated pretty badly.

0:48:470:48:52

We weren't treated, we were treated

like second-class citizens to be

0:48:520:48:55

honest.

Well, you don't have the

same pension rights, that's one of

0:48:550:48:59

them.

It was even the treatment by

the managers themselves that was

0:48:590:49:02

pretty bad.

Danny, why isn't the

answer here to campaign to protest,

0:49:020:49:07

do whatever you want, with the

contract company rather than the

0:49:070:49:11

University of London?

Yeah, we were

chatting about this before we

0:49:110:49:13

started actually and I think the

deal is that it's the University of

0:49:130:49:17

London that decide all of these

terms and conditions. So, for

0:49:170:49:22

instance in the past, in 2011 when

the university brought in the London

0:49:220:49:27

Living Wage, again, that had

contractors at the time and the

0:49:270:49:30

university agreed that they would

make up the difference. They would

0:49:300:49:32

pay that to the contractors and they

have done the same thing when we

0:49:320:49:36

fought for improved terms of

holidays and for sick pay. Again the

0:49:360:49:40

university stepped in and paid that.

So, it's at every juncture, it is

0:49:400:49:44

the university that's responsible

here.

They disagree. They say the

0:49:440:49:47

university doesn't employ any of the

workers and they don't accept that

0:49:470:49:50

the relevant legislation recognises

the concept of joint employment and

0:49:500:49:54

therefore we have not agreed to the

union's request for recognition.

0:49:540:50:00

I wonder what you say from a

business point of view in terms of

0:50:000:50:06

an outsourced company giving the

same rights as the full-time

0:50:060:50:08

employees?

We have to look at why

companies outsource in the first

0:50:080:50:11

place. So it is not necessarily

about cost-cutting measures.

0:50:110:50:14

Sometimes it is just about putting a

capability in one place so for

0:50:140:50:20

example, the University of London,

they are an educational fal silt so

0:50:200:50:23

they say OK, you know what,

cleaning, accounting, IT, tech, we

0:50:230:50:27

outsource it to another organisation

because we are not specialists, but

0:50:270:50:31

there are people who are

specialists, however, in regards to

0:50:310:50:36

specifically outsourcing workers, we

know for a fact that companies have

0:50:360:50:40

done this to get away from the

rights and obligations, the legal

0:50:400:50:43

obligations that they have towards

taking care of their employees and

0:50:430:50:47

so, quite frankly I would say why

are we not looking at Cordent.

0:50:470:50:55

That's the outsourced firm?

Why

aren't we looking at that contract

0:50:550:50:59

that they have with the individuals

rather than looking at someone who

0:50:590:51:01

is further down the supply chain?

Daphne, what chance of success in

0:51:010:51:07

terms of this case?

It's an

interesting legal concept which is

0:51:070:51:11

what clients hate hearing because so

what? It is an interesting legal

0:51:110:51:15

concept. It's not something that's

recognised in the UK at the moment.

0:51:150:51:19

What's been said here is that by

reason of the degree of control,

0:51:190:51:23

that's going on with the university,

over these workers, they should be

0:51:230:51:27

recognised as having some sort of

control over them for the purpose

0:51:270:51:32

therefore being recognised.

Ie joint

employer.

The case in the is about

0:51:320:51:37

whether or not they should be

recognised, the union recognised as

0:51:370:51:43

speaking for them. It is partly to

do with the European Convention on

0:51:430:51:47

Human Rights which is not the same

as the EU and therefore will apply

0:51:470:51:51

after Brexit and one of the

conditions there, article 11, says

0:51:510:51:55

there is freedom of association. So,

it's partly being fought on that

0:51:550:51:58

basis. It's quite exploratory and

therefore, it's quite important

0:51:580:52:02

because if it's right, then anybody

who is working as a contract worker

0:52:020:52:06

could find themselves getting a

whole raft of rights which they

0:52:060:52:09

don't currently enjoy.

The key thing

here is these guys are total

0:52:090:52:12

integrated with the work we do. So I

work in the institute for historical

0:52:120:52:16

research and Glen works there. On a

day-to-day basis we are using the

0:52:160:52:20

same systems, we are providing

training for him and he is providing

0:52:200:52:23

support for us. People who will be

coming into the institute would see

0:52:230:52:27

Glen as the face of the institute.

He has been there for longer than I

0:52:270:52:30

have.

No one would dispute that.

Yet, the university essentially is

0:52:300:52:36

determining everything about his

day-to-day life. The manager is

0:52:360:52:38

giving him instructions and

university staff are giving him

0:52:380:52:41

instructions as well, but at the

same time he has no capacity to

0:52:410:52:44

negotiate his terms and conditions

with them.

Who is your line manager?

0:52:440:52:48

That's another problem. I have got

the manager of the institute, but

0:52:480:52:52

then I have got the manager for the

contract company as well so I have

0:52:520:52:55

to answer to both of them.

You have

got two managers in a joint kind of

0:52:550:53:00

way.

Yes. Sometimes if you go to the

university manager, the contract

0:53:000:53:05

company will tell you you shouldn't

be going to the client directly.

0:53:050:53:10

What do do you there? It happened

with the first contract company,

0:53:100:53:14

maybe they should discuss it with

each other and let me know what they

0:53:140:53:17

want me to do because I was like a

tennis ball hit from one place to

0:53:170:53:21

the next.

These things are about

control and you are seeing this with

0:53:210:53:27

the Uber cases and the gig economy

cases, who is giving the

0:53:270:53:29

instructions? Who has the capacity

to say do this, do that and if

0:53:290:53:34

people are working in the university

side by side with direct employees,

0:53:340:53:37

but their terms and conditions are

less, their holidays are less,

0:53:370:53:39

everything is less, then in effect

you've got a second class layer of

0:53:390:53:43

employment. So, there is a legal

question and there is also a moral

0:53:430:53:46

question and a morale question.

A

final word from you.

Outsourcing is

0:53:460:53:52

not a bad thing. It is something we

use all the time. Professional

0:53:520:53:55

services, who do you listen to? The

client or your own firm? But in the

0:53:550:54:00

case where we are using it as a tool

to take away the rights and the

0:54:000:54:04

employment rights of our own people,

that's when we have to look at it

0:54:040:54:07

closely and go straight to the

contracting company.

I just wanted

0:54:070:54:12

to just say that it's also massively

discriminatory that 80% of the staff

0:54:120:54:19

employed as contract staff are

black, minority or ethnic. It is

0:54:190:54:23

clear this is unfair on that basis

as well.

Thank you, all of you.

0:54:230:54:26

Thank you very much. Thank you for

coming on the programme.

0:54:260:54:35

Collectively British women spend

about £250 million a year

0:54:350:54:37

on tampons and sanitary towels -

£12 million of which goes

0:54:370:54:40

to the treasury in VAT,

or what's known as the "tampon tax".

0:54:400:54:43

The fact that such products aren't

deemed a basic necessity,

0:54:430:54:45

and thereby exempt from VAT,

has prompted a campaign

0:54:450:54:48

to try and change that

in the last few years.

0:54:480:54:50

In 2018, it should change.

0:54:500:54:52

The European Commission says it's

aiming to bring in a zero tax rate

0:54:520:54:55

for sanitary products and the UK

Government has already legislated

0:54:550:54:57

to allow this to happen as soon

as rules change.

0:54:570:55:02

Today, the BBC has put up

on our website a tampon tax

0:55:020:55:07

calculator, that allows you to see

how much you've spent so far

0:55:070:55:10

in your life on sanitary products

and so how much you've spent

0:55:100:55:13

on the tax, too.

0:55:130:55:15

Have a look at this.

0:55:150:55:16

Let's talk now to Laura Croyton,

who has campaigned since 2013

0:56:290:56:32

to end the tampon tax.

0:56:320:56:33

Rachel Krengel has had times

0:56:330:56:34

when she hasn't been able to afford

to buy sanitary products.

0:56:340:56:37

Thank you for coming on the

programme. Laura £12 million in tax

0:56:370:56:43

from the 5% VAT on sanitary

products, how do you react?

It's a

0:56:430:56:48

huge figure for individuals, but not

that big for the Government.

0:56:480:56:52

So, it's not that much for them to

sacrifice, but it's a lot for the

0:56:520:56:56

individual person.

You started this

campaign a few years ago. How far do

0:56:560:57:00

you think it has come and how much

further is there to go?

I think it's

0:57:000:57:05

come a long way in that the

Government have said they will end

0:57:050:57:08

the tampon tax, it is a case of

making sure they do it and that's

0:57:080:57:11

going to take a while because of

Brexit and the EU situation which is

0:57:110:57:15

very irritating.

I am not sure it is

to do with Brexit. The Government,

0:57:150:57:20

as you rightly say, strongly support

cutting the VAT rate on sanitary

0:57:200:57:24

products to zero. They can't under

EU law, but the EU Commission next

0:57:240:57:29

year, before we've Brexited is going

to bring in this change in rules

0:57:290:57:33

which means we can do it. So it is

not to do with Brexit.

They said

0:57:330:57:39

whichever comes first, whether that

changes at the EU or we leave the

0:57:390:57:42

EU.

Rachel, hello.

Hi.

You have

experienced period poverty. Some of

0:57:420:57:48

our audience will know what it is,

but just explain.

The definition we

0:57:480:57:55

use is the inability to access

menstrual products, we say

0:57:550:58:06

menstrual. So that can be, for me it

was in large part financial. We were

0:58:060:58:15

in this horrible financial

situation. Very young children. We

0:58:150:58:19

were both young. My partner lost his

job. I was the birth control I was

0:58:190:58:27

on, I was bleeding for a long time

and it wasn't something we could

0:58:270:58:30

budget for. It's in large part

because of taboo and because of

0:58:300:58:33

stigma and because of lack of

education. So, at this point I never

0:58:330:58:37

went to a foodbank. I had amazing

support networks. When we had no

0:58:370:58:42

money, people would buy us food.

People would lend us money for food,

0:58:420:58:47

shopping, my sister bought my

daughter a winter coat which was

0:58:470:58:50

amazing. I never asked anyone

because in my mind at the time this

0:58:500:58:54

was something that was only about

me, it wasn't about the rest of the

0:58:540:58:57

family and it was something I could

hide. It was something I could deal

0:58:570:58:59

with privately and something in my

heart of hearts I felt like I should

0:58:590:59:03

be hiding.

Right, that's

interesting, isn't it? I'm going to

0:59:030:59:08

ask you how did you cope? What did

you do?

I was able to budget a

0:59:080:59:11

little bit. So I would have some

menstrual pads, not nearly enough

0:59:110:59:14

for the month. So I would wear them

for a very long time. Not going to

0:59:140:59:21

go, you know, it is national TV in

the morning. Just to say it is not

0:59:210:59:25

pleasant.

Yeah. Yeah.

I had a

diaphragm which was not comfortable

0:59:250:59:32

and not safe, please nobody do it

because I've just said it. Sometimes

0:59:320:59:36

I would not use anything. I wasn't

leaving the house much, we didn't

0:59:360:59:41

have money to go anywhere.

Fair

enough. The Government gives all

0:59:410:59:47

funds from menstrual products, gives

the tax to charities. To women's

0:59:470:59:51

charities. Last month it gave to an

anti-abortion charity, but it did

0:59:510:59:57

say that the £250,000 to the Life

charity could not be spent on

0:59:571:00:04

funding counselling, education,

publicity or promotion. How do you

1:00:041:00:06

react to that, Laura?

It's an issue

that it didn't need to go into and

1:00:061:00:12

that if a charity has any bias

towards an issue that women are very

1:00:121:00:18

divided on, it shouldn't really get

involved in that.

Right.

I think it

1:00:181:00:22

was just unnecessary to do that with

women's money.

1:00:221:00:25

Thank you both. Thank you very much,

Laura. Thank you, Rachel for coming

1:00:251:00:29

on the programme.

1:00:291:00:31

Let's get the latest weather

update with Simon King.

1:00:311:00:34

Hello Victoria. It has been a really

mild start to the day.

1:00:371:00:43

It is going to turn colder by the

end of the week. But in the

1:00:431:00:49

meantime, despite the mild weather,

it is cloudy. This is just one

1:00:491:00:52

example in Durham. Some outbreaks of

rain affecting northern parts of

1:00:521:00:57

England, up into Scotland. That rain

will continue across Scotland

1:00:571:01:00

particularly western areas. A strong

easterly wind developing here as

1:01:001:01:03

well. Drier spells elsewhere, but

further rain spreads into Wales and

1:01:031:01:08

the Midlands and north Wention

later. Temperatures, 13, 14, 15, but

1:01:081:01:12

in brighter spells, we could see 16

or 17 Celsius. Tonight is breezy.

1:01:121:01:17

Outbreaks of rain at times for

England and Wales. That will become

1:01:171:01:22

more confined towards northern parts

of England and Northern Ireland by

1:01:221:01:25

the early hours of Wednesday

morning, but again, a mild night

1:01:251:01:28

with temperatures staying in double

figures. During Wednesday that rain

1:01:281:01:34

will finance to move northward.

The best of the dry and bright

1:01:341:01:40

weather towards the South East where

temperatures could be up into about

1:01:401:01:42

16 or 17 Celsius.

Bye-bye.

1:01:421:01:45

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

1:01:471:01:49

welcome to the programme.

1:01:491:01:56

Our top story, the government has

agreed the UK Government should

1:01:561:01:59

offer more money for its divorce

from the EU but only of trade talks

1:01:591:02:02

begin next month.

1:02:021:02:08

As the big B sub Brexit backed Mrs

May over a bigger divorce Bill,

1:02:081:02:11

there is anger among Tory MPs for

more money for Brussels. We will get

1:02:111:02:15

reaction from a leading Brexit in

the next half an hour. -- Brexiteer.

1:02:151:02:21

In an exclusive interview

on this programme,

1:02:211:02:23

three survivors of genocide join

forces to stand up to extremism.

1:02:231:02:25

He was such a nice guy.

1:02:251:02:27

But I couldn't understand how this

very nice guy could become so nasty.

1:02:271:02:30

We all need to accept

that we are born with the capacity

1:02:301:02:33

to become perpetrators.

1:02:331:02:37

The whole time, you were always

waiting for someone to come and take

1:02:371:02:40

you away and kill you.

1:02:401:02:50

Someone says, "Such brave, brave

souls, thanks for the coverage".

1:02:521:02:58

Another says, "Thankfully impactful

courage." Gary says, "Those guys

1:02:581:03:05

were unbelievable and to think we

worry about what we have to deal

1:03:051:03:08

with". The full interview is

available on social media.

1:03:081:03:10

And in just a moment,

we'll be talking to the British

1:03:101:03:13

explorer Benedict Allen,

who is now back in the country

1:03:131:03:15

after going missing in a remote area

of Papua New Guinea.

1:03:151:03:19

Time for the latest BBC News with

Rebecca.

1:03:271:03:30

Good morning.

1:03:301:03:31

The BBC understands that senior

Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

1:03:311:03:35

should offer to pay more money

to leave the EU, but only if member

1:03:351:03:40

states agree to move

on to discussing trade next month.

1:03:401:03:43

Theresa May met colleagues

including Michael Gove

1:03:431:03:44

and Boris Johnson last night,

and is expected to make

1:03:441:03:47

the new offer to the EU

during talks later this week.

1:03:471:03:53

Robert Mugabe is expected to face

the start of impeachment proceedings

1:03:531:03:57

today after refusing to step down

as President of Zimbabwe.

1:03:571:04:01

The country's ruling party, Zanu-PF,

said the process could take just

1:04:011:04:03

two days to complete.

1:04:031:04:13

The 93-year-old, who remains under

armed guard, is accused

1:04:141:04:16

of allowing his wife

to seize power illegally.

1:04:161:04:18

Last night, the military

suggested a plan was emerging

1:04:181:04:20

for the transfer of power.

1:04:201:04:21

The Government's borrowing level

rose by £500 million last month,

1:04:211:04:25

reaching a total of £8 billion.

1:04:251:04:30

That's up 6.9% compared with October

2016, according to the Office

1:04:301:04:33

for National Statistics.

1:04:331:04:38

Our business presenter

Susannah Streeter has more.

1:04:381:04:44

How unexpected is this rise?

Actually, a poll of Reuters

1:04:441:04:50

economists forecast it would be

around £7 billion for October 2017

1:04:501:04:55

but as you say, it is actually

standing at £8 billion, more than

1:04:551:05:00

expected, up 6.9% in bed to October

2016. -- compared to October 2000

1:05:001:05:08

16. It is thought to be specifically

because of a rise in the cost of

1:05:081:05:11

government borrowing. Those costs

were up 25% and that is all linked

1:05:111:05:16

to rising inflation because the cost

of index linked bonds is going up.

1:05:161:05:22

This certainly gives Chancellor

Philip Hammond less room for

1:05:221:05:25

manoeuvre in his budget that he is

unveiling tomorrow. He wanted to try

1:05:251:05:33

to allocate more money towards

house-building, for example, but it

1:05:331:05:37

certainly seems as though he will

have less money to play with.

1:05:371:05:40

However, he will say that he is

still on track to reduce the deficit

1:05:401:05:44

because in the first seven months of

the financial year, the deficit had

1:05:441:05:48

fallen by 9.6%.

Susannah Streeter,

there.

1:05:481:05:55

Staff employed by the outsourcing

company Cordant are asking

1:05:551:05:57

a tribunal to rule that they have

the right to negotiate better terms

1:05:571:06:01

and conditions with the University

of London where they work.

1:06:011:06:04

The landmark case has implications

for more than 3 million workers

1:06:041:06:08

in the UK's business services

industry, who are hired

1:06:081:06:11

through facilities companies.

1:06:111:06:13

The university says it doesn't

employ any of the workers

1:06:131:06:16

and doesn't accept their concept

of "joint employment".

1:06:161:06:21

Finally, watch this.

1:06:211:06:24

A camera operator who waited

40 minutes to film

1:06:241:06:27

a stadium demolition...

missed it.

1:06:271:06:30

The Georgia Dome in Atlanta,

which hosted the Super Bowl

1:06:301:06:33

and the Olympics, was reduced

to rubble by a controlled

1:06:331:06:42

demolition, but something

got in the way...

1:06:421:06:43

You couldn't make it up!

1:07:221:07:23

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am.

1:07:231:07:27

I love the way he's having a

conversation with the bus, like it

1:07:271:07:30

can hear him.

1:07:301:07:35

Get in touch with us. On Christmas

lights, Eleanor said she has got

1:07:351:07:39

them up inside. "We Don't have

lights outside but I love to start

1:07:391:07:43

decorating Ellie. Why not? The

lights make my home so much nicer

1:07:431:07:46

and warmer". And another says

"People put their Christmas

1:07:461:07:53

digressions up early to get into the

spirit, it is a good thing and it

1:07:531:07:56

makes people happy, end of". But

someone else is with me, "Fairy

1:07:561:08:02

lights in November? No."

1:08:021:08:05

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

1:08:051:08:07

use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

1:08:071:08:10

at the standard network rate.

1:08:101:08:11

You can use WhatsApp and Facebook

for free.

1:08:111:08:13

Here's some sport now with Olly.

1:08:131:08:15

England batsman Alastair Cook says

they have pretty much accepted that

1:08:151:08:18

Ben Stokes is going to play no part

in the Ashes Series. The all-rounder

1:08:181:08:22

is awaiting the outcome of a police

investigation after a brawl outside

1:08:221:08:25

a nightclub in September. He was

arrested on suspicion of causing

1:08:251:08:30

actual bodily harm. Stokes posted

this on Instagram yesterday, keeping

1:08:301:08:37

himself trim in the nets at Durham,

bowling, batting, seemingly ready to

1:08:371:08:43

join up with his team-mates if he is

cleared. Here are his team-mates,

1:08:431:08:47

training in Brisbane, where

Australia have not lost a Test match

1:08:471:08:53

in almost 30 years. The first Test

match starts on Thursday, well,

1:08:531:08:58

overnight Wednesday our time.

England hold the Ashes but the last

1:08:581:09:01

time they were in Australia almost

four years ago, they lost 5-0,

1:09:011:09:06

whitewashed. They are certainly a

weaker side without Ben Stokes.

1:09:061:09:11

Well, you're talking about it.

1:09:111:09:13

It is a news line for us.

1:09:131:09:14

Of course, and we understand,

I understand the game.

1:09:141:09:18

It has been a while

since the incident.

1:09:181:09:22

Certainly as a player, in the first

couple of weeks after, it

1:09:221:09:25

was what everyone was talking about.

1:09:251:09:29

It was not great and we pretty much

accepted it was unlikely

1:09:291:09:32

that Ben would be here.

1:09:321:09:33

You can't always pin

your hopes on one guy.

1:09:331:09:35

If there is a bonus of him

making the trip at some

1:09:351:09:38

stage, that would be great,

but I can honestly say

1:09:381:09:41

it has not been spoken

about in the changing room.

1:09:411:09:43

It's no good for us

to talk about that.

1:09:431:09:48

England's women have already lost

their Ashes Series but they can

1:09:481:09:51

level the series if they win the

final T20 match in Canberra. It does

1:09:511:09:55

not look likely. Australia have

posted a formidable target, open a

1:09:551:09:58

Beth Mooney unbeaten on 117, her

maiden century coming off 70

1:09:581:10:06

deliveries from Australia finishing

on 170-2 from their 20 overs. The

1:10:061:10:11

Chase has started, England have

already lost three wickets. Natalie

1:10:111:10:14

Sciver the last to go, run out, 36-3

is the latest scores so it looks

1:10:141:10:21

like they will lose the series as

well.

1:10:211:10:26

Brighton are now unbeaten in five

matches in the Premier League,

1:10:261:10:29

coming from behind twice to earn a

point against Stoke at home.

1:10:291:10:32

Izquierdo made it 2-2 at the Amex

Stadium. They are ninth and Stoke

1:10:321:10:39

remained 15th, four points above the

relegation zone. That is all for

1:10:391:10:43

now. The headlines in the next half

an hour.

1:10:431:10:46

The British explorer

Benedict Allen is back in Britain.

1:10:461:10:48

He went missing in a remote area

of Papua New Guinea as he tried

1:10:481:10:52

to reach a little known-tribe.

1:10:521:10:58

He's been diagnosed with strains of

both malaria and dengue fever after

1:10:581:11:01

getting stranded in remote

mountains.

1:11:011:11:03

He's a friend of Frank Gardner,

our security correspondent,

1:11:031:11:05

who is with him now for his first TV

interview this morning.

1:11:051:11:11

Hello, gentlemen. Hello, Frank and

Benedict, welcome home.

1:11:111:11:16

Good morning. He can't hear you but

that is nothing to do with malaria.

1:11:161:11:20

He just can't you. I have got you in

my ear but says good morning as

1:11:201:11:24

well. As you can see, Benedict Allen

is beside me. I'm going to take it

1:11:241:11:29

away. He is beside me here, at

little disorientated by the fever

1:11:291:11:34

that he has had but he has just

stepped off a plane. Benedict, I'm

1:11:341:11:38

afraid I'm going to have to start by

asking you, what were you thinking,

1:11:381:11:42

going trekking without a satellite

phone or a GPS locator when you have

1:11:421:11:47

got a young family back home who

were worried sick about you?

Well,

1:11:471:11:52

it does not look very good but I'm

not... I'm known as an explorer but

1:11:521:11:57

the fact of the matter is, I'm a

specialist at going to very remote

1:11:571:12:01

places. I've spent three decades

doing this kind of thing and I know

1:12:011:12:05

Papua New Guinea very well. I used

to live there.

Are you still

1:12:051:12:10

witnessing, essentially.

Yes because

a lot of circumstances combined

1:12:101:12:13

against me. There was a huge amount

of unexpected rains, one of the

1:12:131:12:17

grapevine bridges we had to cross to

get across a raging torrent was

1:12:171:12:21

swept away by floods. Then as we

climbed higher, I was trying to

1:12:211:12:25

track down some people are used to

live with and as it went on, I began

1:12:251:12:30

to feel chills, began to feel

uncomfortable at night and I knew I

1:12:301:12:34

might well have malaria. I've had it

five times, almost died of it twice

1:12:341:12:38

so that. Into the problem, it slowed

me further down and then the final

1:12:381:12:42

blow, there was a war going on

between two different communities

1:12:421:12:45

ahead of me so I suddenly found my

way out of the forest was blocked.

1:12:451:12:49

What do you mean by a wall?

There's

a lot of intercommunity fighting in

1:12:491:12:54

Papua New Guinea, it's the most

linguistically diverse place in the

1:12:541:12:58

world, there's a huge number of

languages, 850 language groups so

1:12:581:13:01

people are fighting all the time and

I was trapped.

Just to be clear, you

1:13:011:13:05

were very well looked after by

everyone you were with, you were

1:13:051:13:08

never threatened.

You were asking,

why go without a phone? Part of the

1:13:081:13:14

reason is I have a back-up, my

back-up is not being able to summon

1:13:141:13:18

a helicopter or something like that,

it is to use local resources and be

1:13:181:13:22

friends with people who can help

you. The forest is not a threat to

1:13:221:13:27

them, it is they home and give them

food, medicine and shelter so I had

1:13:271:13:31

resources and the local people are

always friendly to me without

1:13:311:13:34

exception, I was passed through the

forest by different local groups. It

1:13:341:13:38

was great until the malaria kicked

in.

What was your worst moment?

The

1:13:381:13:44

realisation that that time it did

not look good at all. I was dropping

1:13:441:13:48

into fever and out of it and I had

to make a statement to my family...

1:13:481:13:55

You made a farewell video message?

Yeah, bearing in mind I'd never gone

1:13:551:14:00

on an expedition, a tough solo

endeavour like this while a parent

1:14:001:14:03

before. It had just been me as a

young man before and now I have

1:14:031:14:08

three children, who are ten, seven

and two, and it was heartbreaking,

1:14:081:14:11

talking to the camera about... Well,

saying, don't worry, I won't value

1:14:111:14:20

but in my heart, I thought I might

well fail so I had to say that if

1:14:201:14:24

anybody found the footage, they

should take it to the High

1:14:241:14:27

Commission because I might be dead

and this is my family and I showed

1:14:271:14:32

the cameraman my children and my

wife and said, "Maybe you have a

1:14:321:14:37

family". I was speaking in pigeon.

-- in pidgin. The local lingua

1:14:371:14:47

franca, trying to get people to

understand that they could get the

1:14:471:14:50

footage out and give it to my wife.

Like me, you are a father with the

1:14:501:14:55

young family, a lovely family, I've

met them. Why do this? Why put them

1:14:551:14:59

through this? Some people will say

this is a midlife crisis.

My wife

1:14:591:15:06

loves me for the person I am, I'm

not a risk taker, I'm a risk

1:15:061:15:15

calculator, and a challenge take-up.

I calculate risks all the time.

Did

1:15:151:15:19

you miss calculate this time?

Maybe

I did but I was not on my last legs.

1:15:191:15:24

I was almost on my last legs, I had

one big chance to get out and I was

1:15:241:15:30

gathering myself ready for that went

totally out of the blue,

1:15:301:15:34

unexpectedly, this helicopter

arrived and saved me from having to

1:15:341:15:38

do what might have been a fatal

stroke.

Paid for by the Daily Mail

1:15:381:15:42

which is why some people are saying,

"Isn't this just a publicity stunt?"

1:15:421:15:48

If it had been, it was certainly a

shock to the journalist, seeing my

1:15:481:15:53

condition because they took me to

hospital, they realised that I was

1:15:531:15:57

not well. I greeted them even though

I was confused. It was on camera,

1:15:571:16:02

they are filming me, I'm confused

and elated and I can't believe that

1:16:021:16:05

these people, it was like they came

from nowhere and I was not going to

1:16:051:16:08

have to make a last bid for freedom

through the forest by myself. But

1:16:081:16:12

once the adrenaline had worn off,

they took me to hospital as soon as

1:16:121:16:15

they could. You can't fake that kind

of thing, and you can't fake war, it

1:16:151:16:20

is ridiculous.

1:16:201:16:22

Could you just say what it is like

to be in that jungle in that area.

1:16:241:16:28

It is hard for us to kind of

understand sitting on a sofa in West

1:16:281:16:32

London.

It's an extraordinary place

that can work to pull you apart. I

1:16:321:16:39

knew when I was walking along with

five local people, as we went from

1:16:391:16:45

community to community more people

were helping me, helping me. I knew

1:16:451:16:51

I was the weakest, even though I am

fit and strong and I'm used to the

1:16:511:16:56

rainforests, I lived there. I was

the one that was going to be pulled

1:16:561:16:58

apart. I gave myself three weeks and

I thought if I get out in three

1:16:581:17:01

weeks, I will be safe, but my legs

were stripped. The leaches, the

1:17:011:17:06

rain, the trees that would thump

down in the night in the rain

1:17:061:17:10

storms, my moss qet owe net that was

protecting my from malaria ripped

1:17:101:17:14

apart. We were sleeping in a swamp

as the water levels rose. I knew I

1:17:141:17:20

was gradually falling apart, but it

can be glorious too. It's a splendid

1:17:201:17:24

place.

My last question because

we're running out of time. Next

1:17:241:17:29

trip, if your family let you go on

another trip, I'm not sure mine

1:17:291:17:32

would, after this, are you going to

take a satellite phone with you as

1:17:321:17:36

emergency?

We're going to have to a

little discussion about this. I am

1:17:361:17:40

not, I'm not saying, I have got to

review my safety procedures, I

1:17:401:17:45

think. I'm going to fight it all the

way, but in the end, I have to take

1:17:451:17:50

my wife's view into account and do

the right thing by my family.

I hope

1:17:501:17:54

she is listening and watching. I

hope you get over the malaria and

1:17:541:17:58

the dengy. Thank you very much,

that's Benedict Allen back from his

1:17:581:18:04

slightly ill-fated track, some would

say ill-advised, but he has survived

1:18:041:18:08

and he is in one piece. Cheers,

Frank. Frank Gardner talking to ben

1:18:081:18:13

fict Allen and he looks very well

considering what he has experienced,

1:18:131:18:16

doesn't he?

1:18:161:18:18

Senior Cabinet members

are understood to have agreed

1:18:191:18:21

that the UK should offer the EU more

money as part of what's known

1:18:211:18:24

as the divorce bill,

but only if talks move on quickly

1:18:241:18:27

to a trade deal.

1:18:271:18:28

Our political correspondent

Norman Smith can tell us more.

1:18:281:18:33

OK, so, how is Mrs May managed to

swing this?

Well, it is quite an

1:18:331:18:39

achievement because Boris Johnson

and Michael Gove leading Brexiteers

1:18:391:18:44

have been amongst the most sceptical

about giving more cash to Brussels.

1:18:441:18:47

Remember Boris Johnson just back in

the summer said Brussels could go

1:18:471:18:51

and whistle if they wanted a large

slab of money to pay for us leaving

1:18:511:18:55

the EU. Last night, they backed Mrs

May and in effect agreed that we are

1:18:551:18:59

going to have to up our divorce bill

from the current offer of around £18

1:18:591:19:03

billion. Why have they done that? A

number of reasons, one is the

1:19:031:19:09

realisation if we are going to move

on to trade talks then we are going

1:19:091:19:13

to have to up our offer. There is no

other way around it. It is the

1:19:131:19:17

political reality. But, they have

also got amed in of strings attached

1:19:171:19:23

to this extra money. One is that the

EU won't just bank this money,

1:19:231:19:28

prevaricate and demand more money,

so we will only give them the money

1:19:281:19:31

if they promise to move on to

meaningful trade talks and will only

1:19:311:19:36

settle on a final figure once we can

see in black and white that the

1:19:361:19:40

trade deal is going to be. All of

which said, quite an achievement for

1:19:401:19:44

Mrs May because there is all sorts

of trouble brewing on the

1:19:441:19:48

backbenches and Boris Johnson and

Michael Gove wanted to cut up rough

1:19:481:19:50

they too could have said no, we are

not going to pay any more. Quite the

1:19:501:19:54

reverse, they have said OK, we're

ready to go along with the bigger

1:19:541:19:58

divorce bill.

Let me ask you about some other

1:19:581:20:05

issues, two European agencies are

leaving Britain and moving to other

1:20:051:20:10

European capitals. Despite the fact

that the Brexit secretary, David

1:20:101:20:13

Davis, said that wouldn't happen?

Well, I think in the end the sort of

1:20:131:20:18

brutal truth is these are EU

agencies. They are part of the

1:20:181:20:24

infrastructure of the EU and with us

leaving then other EU countries take

1:20:241:20:29

the view well, it just wouldn't make

any sense to leave some of our

1:20:291:20:33

institutions in a third country and

a country that was no longer part of

1:20:331:20:37

the EU, but the consequence of it,

the European Medicines Agency, that

1:20:371:20:41

goes to Amsterdam, that's what

around 800 or so jobs, often

1:20:411:20:47

specialised, hi-tech valuable jobs.

They are all lost. And we're also

1:20:471:20:51

going to lose 190 banking jobs

because the banking agency is also

1:20:511:20:55

off to Paris which is a strange

reversal because remember just five

1:20:551:20:59

years ago, we used to boast that all

the fraench bankers were coming

1:20:591:21:03

here. Now it seems the flow is the

other way, but I guess that is just

1:21:031:21:07

part of the shake out from our

departure from the EU.

1:21:071:21:11

Can I ask you about this

investigation into by the Electoral

1:21:111:21:18

Commission into the vote Leave

campaign and where they directed

1:21:181:21:23

quite a lot of money?

Well, the vote

Leave campaign put a lot of effort

1:21:231:21:29

into the social media campaign. A

huge amount of their resources went

1:21:291:21:32

into that. I think I read something

like 40% of their total budget into

1:21:321:21:38

that, but of course, there are

strict rules about who you can give

1:21:381:21:42

money to and they are alleged to

have given money to a student who

1:21:421:21:47

was running a sort of digital Brexit

campaign, called Believe, but to get

1:21:471:21:53

the money, he had to be entirely

independent of the main vote Leave

1:21:531:21:58

campaign and there are suggestions

he wasn't so the Electoral

1:21:581:22:01

Commission are looking into this.

There are all sorts of allegations

1:22:011:22:04

flying around about the referendum.

Remember, the accusations about sort

1:22:041:22:11

of Russian cyber bloggers using

Twitter and social media to try and

1:22:111:22:17

back the Brexit campaign all of

which haven't really been firmed up

1:22:171:22:21

yet, but there is a lot of

allegation going around about

1:22:211:22:25

whether people stuck strictly to the

rules during the referendum

1:22:251:22:27

campaign.

We will see what happens.

Thank you very much, Norman.

1:22:271:22:31

Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen

for North West Leicestershire,

1:22:311:22:33

campaigned to leave

the European Union.

1:22:331:22:34

He joins me now from Westminster.

1:22:341:22:35

Hello.

Good morning.

Boris Johnson

and move have agreed that we should

1:22:351:22:43

-- Michael Gove have agreed that we

should pay more to Brussels, do you

1:22:431:22:49

feel betrayed by them?

Any shift in

our negotiating position would be

1:22:491:22:52

premature...

Well, it's happening.

We're going to pay them more, almost

1:22:521:22:56

double?

Well, that's disappointing

with that's the case. I think it's

1:22:561:23:00

premature and on the eve of a

Budget, I think the timing is also

1:23:001:23:04

not very clever.

Do you feel betrayed by Boris

1:23:041:23:10

Johnson and Michael Gove who have

agreed to this?

We have the

1:23:101:23:13

principle that nothing is agreed

until everything is agreed. Let's

1:23:131:23:16

see what sort of trade deal the EU

are willing to give us, but again, I

1:23:161:23:21

think that's premature the fact

is...

We are expecting Mrs May to

1:23:211:23:27

make this offer in EU talks to

Donald Tusk?

Let's wait until we

1:23:271:23:30

hear it.

I think you might be in

denial?

Well, you can think what you

1:23:301:23:35

want. What I think is that the fact

is we have full regulatory

1:23:351:23:40

equivalence with the European Union.

So, a trade deal with the European

1:23:401:23:43

Union is not going to be anywhere

near as complex as a trade deal with

1:23:431:23:47

Canada or anywhere else because we

don't need to have a level playing

1:23:471:23:51

field, we've got a level playing

field. It's a matter of if I'm the

1:23:511:23:55

UK, we don't want tariffs on cars,

what do you want? And just go

1:23:551:23:58

through the list because if we have

full regulatory equivalence at the

1:23:581:24:02

moment. So a trade deal with the

will to do one can be, a very short

1:24:021:24:09

Thiem time, a matter of weeks and we

are a long way from the end date of

1:24:091:24:14

us leaving the European Union. When

you look at the amount of taxpayers

1:24:141:24:16

money there, is two years of

transition, that's probably £20

1:24:161:24:20

billion, possibly another £20

billion, £40 billion, you're talking

1:24:201:24:24

about an amount of money the size of

the education budget for a year,

1:24:241:24:28

more than the defence budget, I'd

like to see us fight a little harder

1:24:281:24:33

and also we have the situation that

there is absolute, well, confusion

1:24:331:24:38

in Germany who are the main driver

behind the European Union. Angela

1:24:381:24:44

Merkel can't form a government. She

is probably going to have to go for

1:24:441:24:49

another general election in Germany.

She may not be the Chancellor. Her

1:24:491:24:51

ratings are falling. There could be

no meaningful negotiations with the

1:24:511:24:56

European Union going forward for a

couple of months at least. So, why

1:24:561:24:59

would you want to make concessions

now when you don't have to?

You have

1:24:591:25:03

described it as disappointing if

it's true. Next time you bump into

1:25:031:25:07

Boris Johnson or Michael Gove what

will you say to them? What language

1:25:071:25:10

will you use to them?

Let's see if

there will be a statement in the

1:25:101:25:14

House of Commons, but I would remind

your viewers that any deal that's

1:25:141:25:17

negotiated has got to get through

the House of Commons and at the end

1:25:171:25:22

of the day to vote for a deal, and

not go to WTO which is a deal we

1:25:221:25:28

could have for free, I've got to be

able to look my constituents in

1:25:281:25:32

North West Leicestershire who voted

to leave, 61% to 39%, in the eye and

1:25:321:25:37

say that I believe this is a good

way to spend taxpayers money.

Well,

1:25:371:25:44

if it's true, it is around £38

billion which is what we're hearing

1:25:441:25:48

from, you know, people in the know.

Will you be able to say that to your

1:25:481:25:54

constituents?

Let's see what we get

in return. We don't know what we're

1:25:541:25:58

going to get in return and what

trade deal they might offer us and

1:25:581:26:01

it is bizarre that we're going to

pay £40 billion or offer to pay £40

1:26:011:26:06

billion to allow the EU to have a 90

billion euros trade surplus with us.

1:26:061:26:12

That's not a great deal. But let's

see where we get to. I just worry

1:26:121:26:17

that because, if we're giving ground

at this stage, with so much time

1:26:171:26:21

left before we leave the European

Union, that the EU will come back

1:26:211:26:25

for more. In my book you can't feed

a monster.

1:26:251:26:30

Should the EU give money to Britain

to gain access to the British

1:26:301:26:33

market?

Well, if this is a divorce

and we are having to pay a lump sum

1:26:331:26:40

payment, there is going to be a

division of assets. Well, to start

1:26:401:26:43

with, I think there is a few surveys

out there that will say the EU

1:26:431:26:47

probably owes us about £23 billion

for the infrastructure that we've

1:26:471:26:51

paid into. And also we've got 8 or 9

billion in the European development

1:26:511:26:56

fund which is a bank that we need to

have that money back as well. Let's

1:26:561:27:00

see how all this pans out.

Thank you very much.

1:27:001:27:02

Thank you.

1:27:021:27:09

Nine care homes in West Sussex

are under investigation

1:27:091:27:12

by the police for the possible

mistreatment and neglect

1:27:121:27:14

of dozens of residents.

1:27:141:27:16

One of them is Beech

Lodge near Horsham.

1:27:161:27:20

Two years ago, before the current

investigation opened,

1:27:201:27:22

two other residents,

both vulnerable adults suffered

1:27:221:27:25

serious, unexplained

injuries at that home.

1:27:251:27:28

The men's families are

calling on the police

1:27:281:27:30

to re-open their cases.

1:27:301:27:32

Our reporter Sangita Myska has

been looking into this.

1:27:321:27:39

Tell us a bit more about

Gary Lewis and Matthew Bates

1:27:391:27:43

and what happened to them.

1:27:431:27:46

I need to take you back to 1st April

2015.

It was on that day they were

1:27:461:27:51

taken to the same hospital within

hours of each other suffering the

1:27:511:27:54

same injuries. Those injuries were

breaks to their thigh bones. Mr

1:27:541:27:58

Lewis was 64 at the time. Matthew

Bates was just 30 years old at the

1:27:581:28:03

time. Both of them have cerebral

palsy. Both of them have a great

1:28:031:28:08

deal of difficulty communicating and

both of them have differing degrees

1:28:081:28:13

of osteoporosis because they

couldn't explain what happened to

1:28:131:28:17

them, there was a safeguard inquiry

led by the county council and they

1:28:171:28:21

concluded that the injuries were

likely to have been caused when the

1:28:211:28:24

men were rolled or turned, at that

point, there was a police

1:28:241:28:27

investigation, but there were no

arrests and no charges.

1:28:271:28:30

Now, you have seen some of the men's

medical records including x-rays.

1:28:301:28:36

You have shown some of the men's

medical records including x-rays to

1:28:361:28:41

three independent orthopaedic

surgeons. What did they have to say?

1:28:411:28:44

So the families never had the

opportunity to get a sort of third

1:28:441:28:48

party view of what was going. We

decided to approach three

1:28:481:28:51

independent orthopaedic surgeons as

you say and effectively they all

1:28:511:28:55

concurred. They said it's not

impossible, but it is highly unusual

1:28:551:28:59

to see two such similar breaks in

two men on the same day from the

1:28:591:29:03

same care home. Both breaks they

said had a twisting element to them

1:29:031:29:07

and it was 30-year-old Matthew's

injury that caused a little bit more

1:29:071:29:10

concern than the other. And I was

told that that would have required

1:29:101:29:15

an element of energy to sustain that

break. All of the surgeons suggested

1:29:151:29:20

that rough handling or poor hoisting

of the men may have been a possible

1:29:201:29:24

cause of those breaks, but they

couldn't be sure. They also went on

1:29:241:29:28

to say that in their opinion they

too would have suggested that the a

1:29:281:29:32

very serious investigation took

place to find out what happened.

1:29:321:29:34

What do the families want now then?

So, this summer, Beech Lodge became

1:29:341:29:41

one of nine care homes to be put

under police investigation into

1:29:411:29:45

relation to the possible

ill-treatment and neglect of a total

1:29:451:29:50

of 43 residents, 12 of whom have

died. All nine of those care homes

1:29:501:29:56

including Beech Lodge are owned by a

single company called Sussex health

1:29:561:30:00

care. In the light of this big new

inquiry, which seems to be a major

1:30:001:30:04

inquiry, about 17 police officers

involved, Gary and Matthew's

1:30:041:30:09

families are asking the police to

re-open their old cases just in case

1:30:091:30:13

more evidence can be unearthed, but

so far Sussex Police said no, the

1:30:131:30:17

families say that's not fair and

they are campaigning hard to get

1:30:171:30:21

those cases included in the new

inquiry.

Have the police explained

1:30:211:30:25

why they aren't tin clined to

include Gary and Matthew's cases in

1:30:251:30:28

the bigger investigation?

1:30:281:30:32

We were careful to put every

allegation in this report and others

1:30:321:30:35

I've done, today to Sussex Police.

They came back and said in 2015,

1:30:351:30:41

they carried out a thorough

investigation and they could not

1:30:411:30:43

bring charges. They went on to say

that the county council is bringing

1:30:431:30:47

a serious case review that will be

carried out by social services,

1:30:471:30:51

adult social services team. We then

went to Sussex health care, the

1:30:511:30:55

company that owns all nine care

homes and they said again that they

1:30:551:30:58

fully cooperated with the

authorities in 2015 and the home was

1:30:581:31:04

interestingly rated good in 2015,

the year of the injuries and was

1:31:041:31:08

again rated good in 2017, just

before this bigger inquiry opened up

1:31:081:31:13

in the summer.

You also have an

independent review of the police did

1:31:131:31:18

not read and Gary and Maggie's

cases, who did you speak to?

We

1:31:181:31:22

decided to try to get another legal

opinion about whether these cases

1:31:221:31:25

were reasonable, whether the

families requests were reasonable,

1:31:251:31:30

so we approached Nazir Afzal, the

former head of the CPS in the

1:31:301:31:37

north-west who has dealt with

thousands of cases like this in his

1:31:371:31:40

time. He told us the families'

requests in his were not

1:31:401:31:44

unreasonable, and he said it maybe

you'll benefit to the police to see

1:31:441:31:50

if there are, -- there are common

patterns, individuals and practices

1:31:501:31:53

from Gary and Matthew's cases which

may impinge on their present

1:31:531:31:56

investigation. Both families have

told us that they will carry on

1:31:561:32:02

campaigning to get those cases

reopened and they are pursuing other

1:32:021:32:04

legal routes as well to see what

more they can find.

Thank you for

1:32:041:32:07

joining us.

1:32:071:32:08

Still to come.

1:32:081:32:11

The family plea for a former Uefa

executive to get in touch

1:32:111:32:13

after he disappeared from his home

five weeks ago.

1:32:131:32:18

And with shoppers expected to spend

£10 billion this week

1:32:181:32:27

as the infamous Black Friday extends

beyond the one-day-only sale,

1:32:271:32:30

we'll be looking at how genuine

the deals really are.

1:32:301:32:34

Time for the latest

news, here's Rebecca.

1:32:341:32:40

The headlines this morning.

1:32:401:32:42

The BBC understands that senior

Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

1:32:421:32:44

should offer to pay more money

to leave the EU,

1:32:441:32:47

but only if member states agree

to move on to discussing

1:32:471:32:50

trade next month.

1:32:501:32:51

Theresa May met colleagues

including Michael Gove

1:32:511:32:54

and Boris Johnson last night,

and is expected to make

1:32:541:32:57

the new offer to the EU

during talks later this week.

1:32:571:33:02

The Government's borrowing level

rose by £500 million last

1:33:021:33:06

month, reaching a total

of £8 billion .

1:33:061:33:11

That's up 6.9% compared

with October 2016,

1:33:111:33:14

according to the Office for National

Statistics.

1:33:141:33:24

Economists had been expecting

a lower figure of £7.5 billion.

1:33:241:33:27

Robert Mugabe is expected to face

the start of impeachment proceedings

1:33:271:33:29

today after refusing to step down

as President of Zimbabwe.

1:33:291:33:32

The country's ruling party, Zanu-PF,

said the process could take just

1:33:321:33:34

two days to complete.

1:33:341:33:38

The 93-year-old, who remains under

armed guard, is accused

1:33:381:33:40

of allowing his wife

to seize power illegally.

1:33:401:33:44

Last night, the military

suggested a plan was emerging

1:33:441:33:46

for the transfer of power.

1:33:461:33:55

The Competition and Markets

Authority says the drugs company

1:33:551:33:57

Conor Coady abused its position. --

the drugs company Concordia abused

1:33:571:34:06

its position by overcharging the NHS

for thyroid medicine. A decade ago,

1:34:061:34:10

it costs £4.36 per packet, it has

since risen to £258 per packet, an

1:34:101:34:17

increase of almost 6000%. That is a

summary of the latest BBC News.

1:34:171:34:28

Stephen on Facebook says, "I have

four Christmas trees up in my pub

1:34:281:34:32

already. The celebrations start in

the heart. Enjoy today and live for

1:34:321:34:38

tomorrow". I absolutely concur with

the latter half of that statement,

1:34:381:34:41

it is just putting the Christmas

trees up so early is not for me.

1:34:411:34:44

Here's some sport now with Olly.

1:34:441:34:47

These are the headlines. Alastair

Cook says England have pretty much

1:34:471:34:51

accepted that Ben Stokes won't play

a part in the Ashes Series that

1:34:511:34:54

starts on Thursday. The all-rounder

posted pictures of himself in Durham

1:34:541:35:00

yesterday. That is actually

England's training in Brisbane.

1:35:001:35:06

Stokes is awaiting the outcome of a

police investigation into a brawl

1:35:061:35:09

outside a nightclub, he was arrested

on suspicion of causing actual

1:35:091:35:13

bodily harm. The women's Ashes

Series comes to an end today, in a

1:35:131:35:16

next hour or so, Australia have

already retain the Ashes but England

1:35:161:35:20

could level the series if they win

the final T20 today, but they are up

1:35:201:35:25

against it, Beth Mooney hitting an

unbeaten 117 as Australia posted

1:35:251:35:30

178-2, and England are 107-3 in

reply but over is running out.

1:35:301:35:36

Brighton R&B Duminy five Premier

League matches after drawing 2-2 at

1:35:361:35:39

home against O, coming from behind

twice to remain in the top half of

1:35:391:35:42

the table. One of Great Britain's

most successful female drivers,

1:35:421:35:47

Tonia Couch has retired. The former

European champion and Commonwealth

1:35:471:35:51

silver medallist is going to pursue

a career in coaching. That is all

1:35:511:35:54

for me. I will be back after 11 on

BBC News.

1:35:541:35:57

The family of a former Uefa

executive who disappeared

1:35:591:36:01

from his home five weeks ago shortly

after being diagnosed with bipolar

1:36:011:36:05

disorder are appealing

for him to get in touch.

1:36:051:36:08

51-year-old Bernie Ross,

who had previously been responsible

1:36:081:36:11

for putting on some of football's

biggest tournaments,

1:36:111:36:13

left his wife and four children

in Oxfordshire, saying

1:36:131:36:16

he was travelling to visit

his sister in London.

1:36:161:36:19

He never visited his sister

and never returned home,

1:36:191:36:21

leaving behind his wallet,

phone and extra clothes.

1:36:211:36:31

Jacinta Ross, Bernie's wife

who is desperate for him to return

1:36:331:36:35

home safely is here.

1:36:351:36:37

How are you doing?

It is difficult.

Each day is difficult. I can't

1:36:371:36:41

believe it has gone on for so long.

We are just counting the hours every

1:36:411:36:47

day.

How are the kids? They are OK,

they are quite resilient, and they

1:36:471:36:55

are trying to carry on as normal,

they have got busy lives, lots of

1:36:551:36:59

activities and their schools have

been great.

The first few weeks were

1:36:591:37:03

OK but now they are looking towards

Christmas and wondering whether he

1:37:031:37:07

will be back by then. It is

difficult. They are trying to be

1:37:071:37:12

strong for me, I think.

They are

aged between 11 and 18 so I suppose

1:37:121:37:18

they have the capacity to be strong

for you when they need to be.

Yes, I

1:37:181:37:22

mean, the eldest did not go to

university because of this. The

1:37:221:37:27

second one down is doing his

A-levels, so it has been quite

1:37:271:37:30

disruptive.

Tell us about your

husband.

He's lovely. I'm biased,

1:37:301:37:37

obviously but he is a lovely, gentle

man, universally popular with his

1:37:371:37:43

colleagues. He's got a reputation

for being very calm under pressure.

1:37:431:37:48

That is why he is so good at live

TV. The just giving page says it

1:37:481:37:55

all, when he fell ill, his

colleagues rallied round and they

1:37:551:37:58

raised money and the comments they

made were really uplifting and

1:37:581:38:02

helped Bernie a lot. He is very

funny and fun loving, relaxed kind

1:38:021:38:09

of guy. Just ordinary.

When you say

he fell ill, you are referring to

1:38:091:38:14

the diagnosis of bipolar which came

in January. What impact did it have

1:38:141:38:19

on him?

I think actually come he was

relieved to have the diagnosis at

1:38:191:38:25

that point because he knew he was

ill, we all knew he was ill but we

1:38:251:38:28

did not know what exactly was wrong.

So to get the treatment and to be

1:38:281:38:36

hospitalised actually probably was a

relief as much of anything else.

And

1:38:361:38:40

the effect on the rest of you?

Oh...

It has been a very tough year.

1:38:401:38:47

Nothing really prepares you for it.

Being hospitalised, falling ill,

1:38:471:38:52

losing your job... We are just an

ordinary family whose life has been

1:38:521:38:59

turned upside down and inside out. I

didn't think it could get any worse

1:38:591:39:04

but his disappearance as... Yeah.

When was the last time you saw your

1:39:041:39:10

husband, tell us about it?

It was on

the 18th and I did not see him leave

1:39:101:39:16

the house because I went upstairs

and he was going to leave while I

1:39:161:39:18

was up there. But you know, he

seemed normal, happy, the medication

1:39:181:39:25

he was taking was having a good

effect and he seemed to have a new

1:39:251:39:30

kind of clarity, actually, about his

situation. So I would say generally,

1:39:301:39:35

he was fairly up.

And he said he was

going to visit his sister in London.

1:39:351:39:42

You live in Oxfordshire. There would

be no reason for you to doubt that,

1:39:421:39:47

presumably.

No, no. And also, it

would not have been that unusual for

1:39:471:39:51

him to do that and stay the night

which is what he said which is why

1:39:511:39:55

we did not really pick up he had not

gone there until the next day.

What

1:39:551:39:59

did he take with him and leave

behind?

He took very little with

1:39:591:40:03

him, he left his phone and wallet

and he left all of his clothes as

1:40:031:40:08

far as I can see. Even his wash bag

is still at home. He did not take

1:40:081:40:15

much with him which was why we

thought he would not be a way very

1:40:151:40:20

long initially.

But he did take his

passport.

Yes. And the Post Office

1:40:201:40:26

card.

So when you think about

somebody taking their passport, what

1:40:261:40:32

does it lead you to think?

Well, he

clearly was intending to travel. He

1:40:321:40:38

did not just find himself in France.

I think he had the intention of

1:40:381:40:42

travelling when he left that day and

when he left and went to London. I

1:40:421:40:46

have had to come to terms with the

idea that this was preplanned,

1:40:461:40:51

actually.

Because there have been

sightings in France?

Yeah.

What do

1:40:511:40:57

you think might be going on?

Well,

the doctors think that in bipolar

1:40:571:41:05

patients, anniversaries are very

significant and the anniversary of

1:41:051:41:08

what went on this time last year at

his job will be a trigger, a huge

1:41:081:41:14

trigger, for him and that might have

triggered this episode, that they

1:41:141:41:22

think he may be in some kind of

manic state in some way. The big

1:41:221:41:26

worry is that it might turn into a

depressive state. He has got mixed

1:41:261:41:32

affective states which is when you

can be manic and depressive

1:41:321:41:34

simultaneously. I don't know about

you but I find that almost

1:41:341:41:39

impossible to imagine what it must

be like, how confusing, very the

1:41:391:41:42

will bring. -- very bewildering. The

doctors think that this is all

1:41:421:41:51

related, his disappearance is linked

to the unresolved issues he has got

1:41:511:41:54

with his employers.

This interview

will be put on social media. If your

1:41:541:42:02

husband happens to see this, what

would you say to him directly.

Get

1:42:021:42:08

in touch, please, please get in

touch. Immediately. You know, we

1:42:081:42:14

need him back. Somebody started

Bernie Back Home For Christmas and

1:42:141:42:21

my heart sank because it seems like

a long time away to me. But we need

1:42:211:42:26

him home and we can solve anything

together so he needs to come back.

1:42:261:42:30

Thank you for joining us.

Thank you

for your time.

1:42:301:42:38

Let me bring you this news. I'm just

reading it myself the time from

1:42:381:42:46

Durham Police, seven former members

of staff are being prosecuted over

1:42:461:42:48

alleged abuse and misconduct at a

detention centre. This is the

1:42:481:42:53

Medomsley detention centre,

following claims made by almost 1500

1:42:531:42:59

former inmates. Detectives in Durham

are launching an investigation,

1:42:591:43:07

sorry, launched the investigation of

years ago and they have now

1:43:071:43:09

interviewed former members of staff.

Almost 1500 men have claimed they

1:43:091:43:14

were abused at this detention centre

during the 1970s and 1980s and seven

1:43:141:43:19

former members of staff are now

going to be prosecuted over alleged

1:43:191:43:23

abuse and misconduct there. That is

from Durham Police.

1:43:231:43:28

Zimbabwe's ruling party plan

to impeach President Mugabe today

1:43:281:43:32

on charges that include

allowing his wife "to usurp

1:43:321:43:34

constitutional power".

1:43:341:43:36

In other words, he allowed her

to have too much power.

1:43:361:43:38

It was only six days ago

that the Armed Forces took control

1:43:381:43:42

of a TV station and put Mugabe

under house arrest.

1:43:421:43:47

We wish to make it abundantly clear

that this is not a military takeover

1:43:591:44:03

of government.

1:44:031:44:05

Everyone is feeling this enormous

sense of anticipation. They know,

1:44:231:44:26

they believe that President Robert

Mugabe, the only man they have ever

1:44:261:44:30

known in charge of this country,

really is on the cusp of stepping

1:44:301:44:34

down and so there is this

anticipation, this feeling that

1:44:341:44:37

people want to celebrate.

1:44:371:44:39

What does this mean for you?

A new

Zimbabwe, freedom has finally come!

1:44:441:44:51

CHEERING

They are saying this is their second

1:44:511:45:00

independence.

1:45:001:45:02

There has to be a net return to the

guiding principles of our party.

1:45:181:45:26

Tomorrow, the committee will be set

up tomorrow and hopefully by

1:45:261:45:31

Wednesday, we expect that by

Wednesday, we should be able to vote

1:45:311:45:34

in parliament.

1:45:341:45:35

Shepherd Yuda is a former civil

servant and government worker,

1:45:391:45:41

who says he suffered at the hands

of the Mugabe regime

1:45:411:45:44

by being tortured.

1:45:441:45:45

His uncle was murdered

for supporting the Movement

1:45:451:45:47

for Democratic Change.

1:45:471:45:49

Jasper Maposa works with young

people in Zimbabwe who he says

1:45:491:45:53

are manipulated and bribed

into committing crimes such

1:45:531:45:56

as beating up political opponents,

and Ben Freeth whose land was seized

1:45:561:45:59

by the Mugabe regime.

1:45:591:46:06

Ben is with us. His land was seized.

You are tried to sue Mugabe for

1:46:061:46:12

seizing your land. What happened as

a result of you trying to sue him?

1:46:121:46:16

Well, we did sue him and two weeks

before the actual main hearing of

1:46:161:46:21

the case we ended up being abducted

and taken off to one of the torture

1:46:211:46:25

camps where there were a lot of

young people who were being indock

1:46:251:46:31

tinnated into hate and indoctrinated

into beating up the opposition

1:46:311:46:39

violently and we were taken out to

that camp that and they wanted us to

1:46:391:46:43

sign a bit of paper to withdraw from

the court and obviously, the court

1:46:431:46:48

which the hearing was coming up in

two weeks' time, at that stage, my

1:46:481:46:55

faerl and myself were unconscious,

my mother-in-law was still compus

1:46:551:47:02

mentus, and with a gun to her head

and they had already broken her arm

1:47:021:47:07

very badly. They thrust a burning

stick into her mouth, they had

1:47:071:47:14

beaten her around the head, they got

her to sign that bit of paper to say

1:47:141:47:18

that we would not carry on with this

legal case.

Right. Can I ask you

1:47:181:47:24

Ben, what you think of the prospect

of Mugabe's Vice-President, taking

1:47:241:47:32

over? A man who was part of the

system that Mugabe created and some

1:47:321:47:36

say is every bit as nasty as his

ex-boss?

Well, I think we are all

1:47:361:47:44

extremely concerned about him taking

over. He was Minister of State

1:47:441:47:50

security during the time when Mugabe

murdered about 20,000 people in the

1:47:501:47:57

south of the country earlier on in

his reign. He has presided over many

1:47:571:48:05

of the violent things that Mugabe

has done to remain in power right

1:48:051:48:11

the way through and we are very

circumspect and worried about what

1:48:111:48:15

he might do if he was able to take

power.

1:48:151:48:20

Shepherd, thank you for talking to

us. I wonder what your feeling about

1:48:201:48:25

the prospects of impeachment of Mr

Mugabe and his right-hand man, his

1:48:251:48:30

Vice-President, potentially taking

over?

Hello.

Hi Shepherd, can you

1:48:301:48:37

hear me OK?

Yes. Yes, I can hear you

now. Yes. Can you come back again?

1:48:371:48:44

Yes, of course, what are you

thinking about, about what might

1:48:441:48:47

happen over the next few days and

weeks, President Mugabe being

1:48:471:48:52

impeached and his Vice-President

potentially taking over the running

1:48:521:48:56

of the country?

It's a very

unfortunate situation for

1:48:561:49:00

Zimbabweans to say look, that there

is certainly no change. Whether we

1:49:001:49:05

have got Mugabe, whether we have got

the Vice-President, these people

1:49:051:49:13

have been there for too long.

Everything that happened in Zimbabwe

1:49:131:49:18

it was through these two guys. There

is no change at all.

1:49:181:49:22

So you don't think there is any

chance of reform, but there is

1:49:221:49:27

potentially a chance of free and

fair elections for the first time,

1:49:271:49:30

isn't there or not?

That would be

impossible. We are not going to have

1:49:301:49:36

any free and fair elections because

if I take you back to 2008, if you

1:49:361:49:41

don't mind. Right, in 2008, it was

the Vice-President in the military.

1:49:411:50:00

He will not run in an election that

he loses except if the election is

1:50:001:50:04

run by the United Nations or

monitored by the United Nations.

1:50:041:50:08

That will have a fair chance of a

fair election.

1:50:081:50:19

You work with young people who sayer

bribed into beating up political

1:50:191:50:23

opponents. Tell our British audience

more about this?

1:50:231:50:36

The issue is cam pant and the

factors that have led to this

1:50:431:50:47

unfortunate situation is the

continued economic meltdown. We

1:50:471:50:52

remember from the 1990s our economy

has always been on the doldrums. It

1:50:521:50:57

has been poorly performing and

through the lend reform programme

1:50:571:51:03

until now. So the young people who

were born have not known another

1:51:031:51:11

life which can give them access to

employment. It is a life of struggle

1:51:111:51:20

and they find themselves and the

system is realised that this is

1:51:201:51:30

ready for political abuse and they

really do whatever they told to do

1:51:301:51:35

so they can have access to natural

resource and gold.

Let's assume

1:51:351:51:48

Mugabe is impeached and the

Vice-President takes over. That may,

1:51:481:51:52

of course, not happen, we will have

to see how things unfold over the

1:51:521:51:57

next few days and weeks. What impact

would that have on young people in

1:51:571:52:01

Zimbabwe?

That would be a sad development.

1:52:011:52:12

People are happy to have change. As

a person working with young people,

1:52:121:52:20

I have seen in the aftermath of the

Vice-President, I have seen the

1:52:201:52:24

youth were alined. They ransacked

the towns and cities and they

1:52:241:52:35

started to take everything belonging

to the youth alined to Mnangagwa.

1:52:351:52:44

Mnangagwa is bouncing back.

1:52:441:52:59

So, the politics are the one that's

the problem and if the young people

1:53:011:53:08

continue to fight each other on the

basis of who is on the top of the

1:53:081:53:12

game. This is not good news for the

young people. We need a clean sheet.

1:53:121:53:16

A clean transition. It would be

better if we have free and fair

1:53:161:53:24

elections and whoever wins, wins.

If I come back to Ben. The subject

1:53:241:53:29

of free and fair elections it would

be the first time in a long time,

1:53:291:53:33

but President Mugabe won an election

legitimately in 1980, but does not,

1:53:331:53:39

I mean doesn't Emerson Mnangagwa

know that in order to get for

1:53:391:53:43

example, funds from IMF to help your

economy, that a condition would be

1:53:431:53:50

to have free and fair elections. He

is pragmatic in that sense, isn't

1:53:501:53:54

he?

Well, I think absolutely. We

need to push very hard first of all

1:53:541:54:01

for the constitution to be followed

and in this case, I don't think

1:54:011:54:05

Emerson Mnangagwa can end up on top

if the constitution is followed. We

1:54:051:54:09

need to go for a transitional

authority which will then end up

1:54:091:54:14

with free and fair elections at the

end of it, with possibly Mnangagwa

1:54:141:54:24

or Tsvangirai and someone who would

ensure that things were done

1:54:241:54:30

properly an internationally run

election could happen. We will not

1:54:301:54:32

get a free and fair election so long

as Mnangagwa is running the

1:54:321:54:37

election.

So what has to happen

then?

I believe that there has to be

1:54:371:54:43

a transitional authority established

where those that the coup leaders if

1:54:431:54:47

you like get together with the

opposition, they thrash out a plan

1:54:471:54:53

whereby we are working towards a

free and fair election and we run

1:54:531:54:57

with that. It's obviously going to

be a big risk for Mnangagwa to do

1:54:571:55:02

that, but they pulled it off last

time in 2009 and I believe that they

1:55:021:55:07

will believe they can pull it off

again.

All right. Thank you all very

1:55:071:55:10

much. We appreciate your time, thank

you.

1:55:101:55:17

Shoppers are expected to spend

£10 billion this week

1:55:171:55:25

as Black Friday extends beyond one

day only, Friday, to try

1:55:251:55:29

and lure in shoppers

between now and Christmas.

1:55:291:55:33

I have started already.

1:55:331:55:35

I was eyeing up a laptop two weeks

ago to see what the prices are now

1:55:351:55:39

to when the Black Friday hits

so yeah, it makes you hold out

1:55:391:55:42

for the sales if you are

a month in between it.

1:55:421:55:45

Having Black Friday prompts

you to look for deals.

1:55:451:55:47

Throughout the year

you are trying to save money

1:55:471:55:49

and not be so frivolous.

1:55:491:55:53

If there's something

that I like then yeah,

1:55:531:55:55

but I'm not going to go out

searching which deals are out

1:55:551:55:58

there because it's never

really a significant deal.

1:55:581:56:00

Sometimes they double the prices

and then just half them and then

1:56:001:56:03

you're paying what you would pay

the rest of the year anyway.

1:56:031:56:06

I tend to wait until Boxing Day

because the deals tend to be better

1:56:061:56:09

on Boxing Day rather than

Black Friday.

1:56:091:56:14

But we can't wait until Boxing Day,

can we?

1:56:211:56:28

Joining us now, Kate Hardcastle,

a consumer expert at

1:56:281:56:30

Insight With Passion.

1:56:301:56:31

Kerenza Richards runs

the Coupon Mama UK Facebook page.

1:56:311:56:34

Hello both of you. Kate how is Black

Friday changed since it first made

1:56:341:56:39

its way across the Atlantic?

It

changed things for retailers because

1:56:391:56:43

commonly at this time which we call

the golden quarter, between

1:56:431:56:47

September and December, when you

would want to sell most of your

1:56:471:56:50

merchandise, we have got a heavy

discounting period, but what came

1:56:501:56:54

across as a bit of a surprise to key

retailers because this is an

1:56:541:56:59

American promotion has now been

something they have caught up with.

1:56:591:57:01

So as you have been hearing from

your vice viewers a lot of the

1:57:011:57:06

promotions are not as again went as

they seem.

I haven't got much time

1:57:061:57:09

left. What are the best deals out

there at moment? Tell our viewers?

1:57:091:57:20

LG55 inch 4K TV, down to £549 in

Curry's. A bottle of Calvin Klein

1:57:201:57:32

reduced from £68 to £29. We have got

GHDs, they are £75.99 down from

1:57:321:57:41

£129.99.

Is this the kind of stuff

that you will be buying or just

1:57:411:57:45

recommending to people on your

Facebook page?

I bought the Xbox

1:57:451:57:50

bundle for my daughter for

Christmas.

How much did you save?

1:57:501:57:55

£100 I saved on that.

When do you

start shopping for Christmas then?

1:57:551:57:59

January.

Do you?

Yeah. You get the

best deals in January.

I am a bit

1:57:591:58:06

late then?

It is really good to shop

out of season. I buy my winner

1:58:061:58:14

wardrobe in summer and winter

wardrobe in summer.

You have got it

1:58:141:58:18

sorted. Thank you very much.

I am sorry about the short amount of

1:58:181:58:23

time. Thank you, we appreciate it.

Thank you. We are back tomorrow at

1:58:231:58:31

9am. Have

1:58:311:58:32

# The world was on fire... #

1:58:331:58:34

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