21/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme.

Our top story today,

senior government ministers have

agreed the UK should offer more

money for its divorce

from the EU, but only if talks

about trade start soon.

As Brexiteer is on the backbenches

threatened trouble over the bigger

divorce Bill, Brexiteers in the

cabinet give the thumbs up to more

money for Brussels.

Also on the programme -

a group of outsourced workers

at a London University are issuing

what could be a landmark legal claim

to establish the "joint employer"

principle in UK law.

The university is the entity that

essentially decides what their pay

and terms and conditions

are going to be, and unless they can

negotiate directly

with the university,

they can't really negotiate over

their pay and terms and conditions.

If successful, it could lead

to improved terms and conditions

for some 3.3 million workers

in the UK.

And three survivors of genocide join

forces to stand up to extremism

in an exclusive interview

on this programme.

We'll hear their stories

in around 15 minutes' time.

Hello.

Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11.

We're going to talk

about Black Friday later,

which as you may know,

is no longer just a day

but more like several days.

Christmas retailers

are doing their utmost

to lure you in.

Despite it only being the 21st of

November, where I live, some houses

already have their Christmas lights

out the front. Fairy lights are on

the front of their homes. Why, is my

question. It is the 21st of

November. RU one of those

households. Please tell me you have

done this. You are definitely in

danger of beating too soon. You can

send me photographs, too.

Use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

A little later in the

programme, we'll hear

from the British explorer

Benedict Allen, who's back

in the UK after being rescued

from the jungle in Papua New Guinea

where he was trying to reach

a little-known tribe.

Watch his first TV

interview after 10am.

Our top story today.

The BBC understands

that senior cabinet

ministers have agreed Britain should

increase its financial offer

to the EU as the UK leaves in 2019.

But only of member states move on to

discussing trade. Theresa May met

colleagues including Michael Gove

Boris Johnson last night and is

expected to make a new offer to the

EU during talks later this week.

Let's get more from our political

guru Norman Smith in Westminster.

So Mrs may has managed to find some

kind of compromise between the

Brexiteers in the cabinet and

remains.

There must be many mornings

when she wakes up thinking, "Oh, my

gosh," but this morning she must be

feeling chipper because she seems to

have bound in the big beasts of

Brexit in the Cabinet to agree her

in backing for more money to leave

the EU and that was by no means a

given because the Tory backbenchers

are up in arms, describing it as a

ransom and we should not be paying

ransom money to leave the EU and it

is possible Boris Johnson and

Michael Gove could have decided to

ride the backbenches and torpedo Mrs

May's move to give more cash to get

the trade talks going. Instead, they

have said OK, we will pay more

money. A couple of conditions

attached, though. One, they want it

to be absolutely guaranteed that the

EU will respond by saying, "Fine, we

will now move on in the Brexit

negotiations to discuss trade".

Secondly, they are saying that we

must not agree a final sum until the

last minute when we can actually see

the sort of trade deal we are going

to get and if we don't like it, we

take the money off the table. For

Mrs May, good results so far, she's

got the Brexiteers on board but in

terms of the offer, still lots of

conditions attached.

Norman, for the

moment, thank you. More on that

later.

Rebecca Jones is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

of the rest of the day's news.

Good morning.

The governing Zanu-PF party

in Zimbabwe is expected to start

impeachment proceedings

against Rober Mugabe today.

He is accused of failing

to uphold the constitution

and of giving his wife,

Grace, too much power.

Zimbabwe's former vice president,

who was sacked by President Mugabe,

has warned him to resign immediately

or face humiliation by Zimbabweans.

Shingai Nyoka reports.

Within days, the era

of President Robert Mugabe

could finally be over.

Zanu-PF already has the two-thirds

majority required to remove him,

but loyalty is not guaranteed here,

and they've courted

the opposition to support

the motion just in case.

We expect the motion

to be moved tomorrow.

The committee to be set up tomorrow.

Because the charges are so clear, we

expect that by Wednesday, we should

be able to vote in parliament.

The military, which took over

the country last week,

appears to have a parallel

process under way.

They say the long-time

leader is holding talks

with his sacked vice-president,

Emmerson Mnangagwa, to map out

an amicable way forward.

The sacking of Mnangagwa, a military

ally, ignited the takeover.

On Sunday, Zanu-PF fired Mugabe

as its leader and installed

Mnangagwa in his place.

The Zimbabwean defence and security

services are encouraged

by new developments which include

contact between the president

and the former vice-president,

comrade Emmerson Mnangagwa,

who is expected

in the country shortly.

Thereafter, the nation will be

advised of the outcome

of the talks between the two.

But the President remains in charge,

even though he is still

under military guard.

Whatever the outcomes

of the two processes,

his leadership is not likely

to last much longer.

Shingai Nyoka, BBC News, Harare.

Teenager Gaia Pope had "struggled"

with health issues before her death,

according to her father.

Police are treating

the 19-year-old's death

as "unexplained" after her body

was found in a field

in Dorset on Saturday.

Police released three

people who were arrested

on suspicion of her murder.

They will face no further action.

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani

declared the end of Islamic State

on Tuesday, in an address broadcast

live on state TV.

Iran has been part of a coalition

with the Syria now the and Russia in

the fight against IS for several

years.

More than 1,000 members

of Iran's Revolutionary Guards

have been killed in Syria and Iraq.

The American talk show host,

Charlie Rose, has apologised

for what he called "inappropriate

behaviour" after allegations

of sexual harassment.

His various shows have been

suspended, following a piece

in the Washington Post

in which eight women

accused him of harassment.

Staff employed by the outsourcing

company Cordant are asking a

tribunal to rule that they have the

right to negotiate better terms and

conditions with the University of

London, where they work. The

landmark case has implications for

more than 3 million workers in the

UK's business services industry who

are hired through facilities

companies. The university says it

does not employ any of the workers

and does not accept their concept of

joint employment.

TV presenter Paul Hollywood

has accused his former

Bake Off colleagues -

including fellow judge, Mary Berry -

of "abandoning" the show.

Mary Berry, along with presenters

Mel and Sue, left the programme

when it moved to Channel 4.

In an interview with

the Radio Times, Hollywood said

the criticism he received

after his decision to stay

with the show was "not fun"

and that he felt he "became the most

hated man in the country".

Finally, watch this.

A camera operator who waited 40

minutes to film a stadium demolition

has been thwarted at the last moment

by some unfortunate bus scheduling.

The Georgia Dome in Atlanta,

which hosted the Super Bowl

and the Olympics, was reduced to

rubble by a controlled demolition,

but one spectator missed

the crucial moment.

Get out of the way, Bath!

You really couldn't make it up!

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

More at 9.30am.

I'm amazed he only swore twice. He

had one job that day. On the Brexit

divorce Bill and the factories may

has agreed with her cabinet that

Britain should offer more money in

order to get trade talks underway

with the EU before Britain leaves,

Ellie on Facebook says," it should

cost us. We have been taking more

money than we have been putting in

and then we turn around and tell

them to do one? This referendum was

a complete joke. It's never

discussed these kind of conditions

before they took it to the people".

Sean on Facebook says, "Freedom and

new opportunities cost money". On

Christmas lights, LP says, "I can

put my Christmas decorations up any

time I like or not even bother to

take them down. Victoria, stop being

a fascist in deciding what others

should do because it pleases you". I

think that's taking it a bit too

far, just saying, where I live, in

the suburbs, people already have

their fairy lights outside a house

and I'm just confused.

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning,

use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

Let's get some sport.

Olly Foster is with us

this morning and it

looks as though Mike Ashley has

found a buyer for Newcastle United.

Well, let's take it slowly! Good

morning. There is a bid on the table

which is a start. Remember, you put

the club up for sale last month. He

has been there ten years, a very

divisive figure, the fans don't like

him, not putting enough investment

back into the club. They've been

relegated twice they are currently

just about keeping their heads above

water in the Premier League. But

spotted in the crowd after he had

put the club up to their was Amanda

Staveley, who fronts PCP capital

partners. She was in the crowd,

she's incredibly influential, based

in the Middle East, and she brokered

the deal for Sheikh Mansoor and the

Abu Dhabi family to take over at

Manchester City about ten years ago.

£210 million, they bought Manchester

City for and we know what they have

done since then. The offer that is

believed to be on the table is

somewhere in the region of 300

million, some way short of Mike

Ashley's asking price of about 380

million. He is looking to triple the

money he paid to buy Newcastle ten

years ago. Remember, he was offering

a deal to basically by the club on

the never-never, kind of a hire

purchase. He's that desperate to get

rid of it. It could be Amanda

Staveley and her PCP capital

partners and possible Middle East

investors behind that as well. A bid

is on the table but we are waiting

to see what deal if any can be done.

The first Ashes Test starts on

Thursday and lots of the pre-match

chat is still about Ben Stokes not

being there for England.

Yes, the

England players don't want to be

talking about Ben Stokes, the

match-winning all-rounder who is

still in this country but he has

been doing that, footage surfaced

recently, in the last 24 hours, on

social media, of him bowling and

batting in the nets at Durham. He is

waiting for the police investigation

into him to conclude the C if he

will face any charges for his part

in a brawl outside a nightclub in

Bristol. -- to C of E will face.

They are trying not to talk about it

but when Ben Stokes is doing that,

seemingly ready to go and join them

in Australia should he get the

chance, of course, there are

questions about it and this is

Alastair Cook's response.

Well,

you're talking about it.

It is a

news line for us.

Of course, and we

understand, I understand the game.

It has been a while since the

incident. Certainly as a player, in

the first couple of weeks after, it

was what everyone was talking about,

it was not great and we pretty much

accepted it was unlikely that Ben

would be here. You can't always pin

your hopes on one guy. If there is a

bonus of him making the trip at some

stage, that would be great but I can

honestly say it has not been spoken

about in the changing room. It's no

good for us to talk about that.

We

will see, it is overnight Wednesday

into Thursday that the Test match

starts and you will be able to

follow it on the BBC.

An early

contender for goal of the season

scored by Chelsea Blair.

Brighton

against oak was a draw and this

Chelsea player joined when he was

12, he is still on their books but

he has been farmed out to the Dutch

first vision, playing for Vitesse,

has played all season, aged 22 and

scored his first goal at the

weekend. Look at that. Amazing goal!

Why doesn't he celebrate? Because

that was his goalkeeper, and that,

Victoria, is an own goal!

Astonishing. They lost 4-2. De Boer

is very well regarded by Chelsea and

Vitesse but not for that. -- Dabo is

well respected.

More sport

throughout the morning.

This morning, three survivors

of genocide have joined forces

to stand up to extremism

in an exclusive interview

on this programme.

Let me introduce you to

Kemal Pervanic, who survived a

concentration camp

during the Bosnian war.

The former Bosnian Serb military

commander Ratko Mladic will find out

tomorrow whether he's convicted

of crimes against humanity.

He's accused of committing

genocide during that

conflict of the 1990s.

Eric Murangwa Eugene

lost 35 family members

in the Rwandan genoicide.

Between April and June 1994,

an estimated 800,000 Rwandans

were killed in the space

of 100 days.

Most of the dead were Tutsis,

and most of those who perpetrated

the violence were Hutus.

And Ruth Barnett, who fled

Nazi Germany as a child

on the Kindertransport,

an organised rescue effort that took

place prior to the outbreak

of the Second World War,

taking children from

Germany to Britain.

We're also joined by Adam Wagner,

human rights lawyer and founder

of Rights Info, who's bought

the three of them together.

The nature of what we're going to be

discuss will be graphic and raw. Let

me begin with you Kamal if I may.

Tell us about how you came to be in

a concentration camp in the 1990s?

Well, no one ever expects to end up

in a concentration camp. So, I had a

normal life. My family lived in

rural Bosnia. The community was

mixed. The relationships in the

community were good. Until the

second half of the 1980s when former

Yugoslavia, the country that I was

born in, that Bosnia was part of

from Yugoslavia was experiencing a

serious unemployment and certain

individuals turned up on the

political scene and started dividing

us. They were saying that we could

no longer live together because we

were too different and then not many

years later, we had terrible wars

and the Bosnian War. I ended up in a

concentration camp. My village was

attacked by my neighbours. My former

school mates. When I ended up in the

camp, I recognised so many people,

classmates, two teachers, it was

unimaginable.

And when you say you recognised so

many people, do you mean fellow

prisoners, or do you mean people who

were in control of you and

ultimately tortured you?

Well,

whoever happened to be in the region

ended up in one of the three camps

in my town, but also the people who

perpetrated that violence against us

were our neighbours. So, it was very

personal. We knew each other. And

just a couple of years earlier, you

know, when I was in high school, I

could never imagine that one of my

favourite high school teachers would

end up being one of the

interrogators and you know, my

brother was almost killed on his

orders.

It is unbelievable and

horrific. Did you ever feel that you

could say to him, "You were my

teacher. I really liked you."

I

wouldn't dare.

No.

I wouldn't dare

look at him in that room because it

could have ended my life, but I was

able to go back to Bosnia some years

later and I had a chance to talk to

him.

I'm going to ask you about that

in a moment, before I bring in Ruth

and Eric and Adam, what kind of

things did you witness in that

concentration camp?

Lots of

gratuitous violence and that

disturbs me to this day. It just,

you never expect that fellow human

beings, torturing and killing other

fellow human beings for pleasure,

for sport. And they were just

ordinary human beings like myself

and like yourself.

And we're seeing

pictures of some of them now. I

wonder if I could bring in you Ruth

if I may. You came to Britain aged

four on the Kindertransport over to

the UK from Germany. You came from a

Jewish family. Tell me what was

happening to you and your family and

your community back then?

Well, the

Jewish community were used to

persecution time and again and they

simply thought if they kept their

heads down and didn't make waves, it

would pass over, up until the night

of November, 9th 1938 when in every

city, right across Germany and

Austria, the crowds rioted and

smashed up Jewish property and

Jewish men were arrested and thrown

into labour camp. The writing was on

the wall that it wasn't going to

blow over and because of that

terrible attack, my parents made the

very difficult decision to send my

seven-year-old brother and myself on

the trains that were organised and

later called the Kindertransport to

safety in England. We didn't see our

parents for ten years. We were

raised in three foster families and

a hostel during that time.

Your

brother, as you said was a few years

older than you. Do you think you

would have survived if it wasn't for

him?

I don't think I would have

coped in what felt like the world

had been ripped away like a carpet

from under my feet and I was

floundering in a totally mad world

that made no sense. If I hadn't had

my seven-year-old brother to make

sense of it, for me, even though, of

course, he didn't know what was

going on and a lot of it was

nonsense, he had a knack of calming

me down and of course, I was

important to him as I represented a

link with his parents who had told

him to look after his little sister.

That's how we survived because we

had each other.

Eric, hello. Welcome

to the programme.

Thank you.

You

were an international footballer

when you lived through genocide in

Rwanda. It claimed at least 35

members of your family, but you

think it maybe more?

Yes, indeed.

Yes, when the genocide happened in

Rwanda I was a football player,

playing for alclub which is the

biggest football club in Rwanda and

on the first day of genocide on 7th

April 1994, I escaped death because

one of the soldiers who came into my

flat where I was living with a

friend of mine, to kill us

recognised me through the photo of

my football team and from that

moment he spared my life and the

life of my team-mate and then moved

from that flat and went to stay with

team-mates of mine who were living

about a mile away from where I was

and I spent about four, six weeks

with this group of my former

team-mates and...

Were you

effectively trapped for that period

of time?

I could not even venture

outside of the house. I could not do

anything other than staying indoors

because at that time the whole

country had gone mad.

And you were

effectively waiting for a knock on

the door are you, or the house to be

attacked or to be under siege?

That

was life for the whole time. You

were always waiting for someone to

come in and take you away and kill

you because you were also constantly

hearing neighbours being killed,

gunshots, going off here and there

and when you hear that, you know

what is happening and those who are

able to go out would come and tell

us what was going on outside and the

first time I saw someone being

killed was on the second day of

genocide. At that time, we had not

yet been confided into our house, we

could still move around the

neighbourhoods. So, one of the

neighbours, a man was brought

somewhere from around the corner and

he was accused of having been seen

wearing a T-shirt with a picture of

our former PF leader and for that

reason, the man was escorted a

couple of yards from where we were

and he was brutally killed. They

were using whips and stones.

You

witnessed this?

I saw this with my

own eyes.

And what impact does that

continue to have on you now?

It has

impacted me in many ways because for

many years I could not speak about

experience. I decided to leave my

country and came into this country

mainly because it was very hard to

go on and live a normal life with

all the memories around you, but

thankfully I think the sort of

survivor experience I had with the

help of my team-mates and the role

the sport had in that has been very

helpful for me to overcome that type

of trauma and today I think I find

it normal to speak about my

experience because I try to see the

positive side of it and leave the

negative side a little bit behind.

OK. I had want to bring in Adam, if

I may. You have brought Kamal and

Eric and Ruth together. Why?

Well,

thank you very much for having us

and thanks also to Ruth and Kamal

and Eric for sharing their stories.

We're trying to bring across the

simple message with the fight hate

with rights campaign which is that

genocide doesn't happen overnight.

It starts with the very basic cuts

to liberties, that happen usually

over many months or years and we

don't, we shouldn't wait for

concentration camps and secret

police to stand up. We have got to

stand up now. Stand up to basic

discriminations. Stand up to

breaches of Human Rights, not

necessarily in other countries, but

we need to do that too, but in our

neighbourhoods. Close to home in the

small places and that's really what

the campaign is about.

Are you

saying that's happening, some rights

are being whittled away in Britain

now for example?

Yes. We've reached

a bit of a turning point and one of

the reasons this film had over

500,000 views in a few days, it's

because it's strike ago cord this

idea that across the world we are

seeing the rise again of far-right

movements in the United States...

Which is different to rights being

whittled away. Do you have examples

of that?

Well, that's how it starts

and you can see in the k UK an

atmosphere, I'm not saying there is

going to be concentration camps here

in a year's time, but you can see an

atmosphere of withdrawing from these

international institutions that we

created after the Second World War,

we the Brits created the European

Convention on Human Rights and the

international courts, we used to

lead those institutions and now

we're withdrawing.

I don't think the

Prime Minister said we're going to

withdraw. As Prime Minister she has

not said we are going to withdraw

from the European Convention on

Human Rights?

Theresa May is the

first Prime Minister ever of the UK

to say I want, I think we should

withdraw and I think they have put

it on the back burner because of

Brexit and that's what she said. She

said it does nothing for our

security.

As Home Secretary she

criticised it?

She criticised it as

Prime Minister as well and I think

the direction of travel is quite

clear in the UK now is that we,

there is public support for moving

away from the international ideas as

we see from Brexit and there is

moving away from Human Rights values

and ideals which we have always led

and I think that's what we are

trying to get across, at rights

infoe with the fight hate with

rights campaign.

Kamal, you said you

went back to talk to that high

school teacher who had been

effectively one of your, who you had

witnessed forking turing others and

who interrogated you. What did you

say to that man?

Because I never

left of my own will, I have this

need to go back and one of the

things I wanted to do is to find him

and hopefully get some answers from

him because he was such a nice guy,

you know, I could understand thugs

taking part in what happened in the

concentration camp, but I couldn't

understand how this very nice guy

could become so nasty. And when I

first saw him, he knew that we had

some shared past because of my name.

He knew that I was his former

students. So we agreed on a

particular day, but when I went to

his school, he wasn't there. But I

kept going back. It was really,

really uncomfortable for me and I

eventually managed to catch him one

day and he wasn't prepared to talk

and I grabbed his arm and he said,

"Don't do that." I said you

integrated me too and his jaw

dropped and we started talking. He

didn't feel comfortable. But at the

same time, he didn't want to accept

any responsibility for his

involvement in what went on in the

region and in the camp.

What did you

want to know from him specifically?

Why him? I just wanted to

understand, why is it that

ordinarily, very nice people become

terrible perpetrators?

I wonder...

That is a profound question. Bruce,

what would be your answer to that?

Why do ordinary, nice people...

Change?

Well, I studied psychology

and I think we all need to accept

that we are born with the capacity

to become perpetrators. We have

demons in our human nature but we

also have angels. The question

really is, why do we tend to nurture

the demons rather than the angels?

So as far as I understand anybody

can become a perpetrator, and

anybody can become a rescuer. I

think it depends hugely on the moral

climate of the earliest upbringing

in family or wherever a child is

raised.

I think what Kemal describes

is pretty much what I experienced

and what went on in Rwanda. The

genocide there was committed by

friends against friends, neighbours

against neighbours, and to some

extent, members of the same family.

It is harder to understand how

someone who grew up with -- you grew

up with, you spent all your time

playing, going to school together

and in just one go, they turn and

become a monster and want to kill

you. Looking at how that developed

in Rwanda, how it happened, it has

something to do with education, with

how society is educated, is treated.

And especially the power of

leadership, the power of leadership

is so much important in how people

tend to change and become something

else.

That is why I think Writes

Info is so important because this is

a feature of all the genocide I've

studied, in the Holocaust villages,

particularly in Eastern Europe, set

about neighbours murdering

neighbours, long before the Nazis

actually reached. As soon as they

knew they were coming, it began. I

think human rights and Rights Info

is the way forward but we need to

focus on rights having

responsibilities and we have a

society which is very reluctant to

take responsibility.

Can I just say?

I wanted to understand, now I know,

basically everything that happened

to me was because there was a slow

erosion of human rights over a

period of time. Propaganda was used

extensively for many, many years.

During that process, I was

identified with a particular group

and members of this group were

demonised and then it became

possible for my fellow human beings

to see me as a monster and it is

much easier to kill monsters than

human beings. So this is why, you

know, we need human rights to be

enshrined in law, to protect

everyone equally and right now, I

can see some people can dismiss

this, I can see very strong

parallels in what is happening in

the West, when we have the most

powerful man in the world demonising

particular groups, calling Mexicans

rapists and what will his ordinary,

fellow American citizens think? This

is why we need things like the

campaign to bring communities

together, to stand up against this

kind of dehumanisation and

demonisation.

Human rights are in

law.

We do have human rights in law

in this country, the Human Rights

Act enshrined the European

Convention on human rights into

British law.

But we need it

enshrined in people's consciousness.

Adam, the use of the word genocide,

human rights groups say there is a

genocide going on right now in

Myanmar, in Syria, in sedan. Why is

it important to use that word? -- in

Sudan.

Once you use the word, it

creates a whole different

international reaction and I know

Eric speaks very movingly about the

failure to use that word in Rwanda

for a long time, including by

Britain. Words do change behaviour

and we have got to a point where 70

years ago, there was not an idea of

crimes against humanity or about

genocide and that is one of the

issues we have spoken about in this

campaign. Now we have at least the

beginnings of an international

system which identifies those

horrors, early and late, and tries

to intervene but we need, the

British people need to stand up and

lead that system, or be beacons in

the system, like we once were.

OK,

let me read some messages. Emma

says, effectively, "Thank you for

sharing your stories". She says, "I

can't even imagine, it is so sad to

hear what you went through"

can't even imagine, it is so sad to

hear what you went through". This

tweet says, "That guy just said

Brexit was the first step towards

genocide. What?" And this tweet

says, "Much respect to you for

speaking this morning". Thank you

for joining us. Thank you for coming

on the programme.

Still to come:

a group of outsourced workers

at London University are launching

a legal claim which could lead

to improved terms and conditions

for around 3million

workers in the UK.

We will talk about their case in the

next few minutes.

We'll be with the British explorer

Benedict Allen who is now back

in the country after going missing

in a remote area

of Papua New Guinea.

Time for the latest news with

Rebecca Jones. The headlines this

morning.

The BBC understands that senior

Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

should offer to pay more money

to leave the EU,

but only if member states agree next

month to move on to

discussing trade.

Theresa May met colleagues

including Michael Gove

and Boris Johnson last night,

and is expected to make

the new offer to the EU

during talks later this week.

Robert Mugabe is expected to face

the start of impeachment proceedings

today after refusing to step down as

president of Zimbabwe. The country's

ruling Zanu-PF party said the

process could take just two days to

complete. The 93-year-old, who

remains under armed guard, is

accused of allowing his wife to

seize power illegally. Last night,

the military suggested a plan was

emerging for the transfer of power.

Staff employed by the outsourcing

company Cordant are asking a

tribunal to rule that

they have the right

to negotiate better terms

and conditions with the University

of London, where they work.

The landmark case

has implications for

more than 3 million workers

in the UK's business services

industry who are hired

through facilities companies.

The university says it does not

employ any of the workers

and does not accept their concept

of joint employment.

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

Here's some sport now with Olly.

England batsman Alastair Cook says

they have pretty much accepted that

Ben Stokes won't play a part in the

Ashes Series which starts on

Thursday. The all-rounder posted

pictures of himself in the nets at

Durham yesterday as he awaits the

outcome of a police investigation

into a brawl outside a nightclub. He

was arrested on suspicion of causing

actual bodily harm. The women's

Ashes Series comes to an end today.

Australia have already retain the

Ashes, but England can level the

series if they win the final T20 in

Canberra but they are up against it,

Beth Mooney carrying the bat through

the Australian innings, hitting an

unbeaten 117. England need 179 to

win. Unbeaten in five Premier League

matches after their 2-2 draw at home

against Stoke. They came from behind

twice and they are still in the top

top half of the table. A formal

offer has been made by Newcastle --

to buy Newcastle United, three had

million pounds from an investment

firm, which is believed to be some

way short of Mike Ashley's asking

price. He put the club up for sale

last month. I will be back with a

full update after 10am.

Thank you. It is 9:40am, thank you

for joining us.

Teenager Gaia Pope had "struggled"

with health issues before she died,

her father has said.

Police are treating

the 19-year-old's death

as "unexplained" after her body

was found in a field

near Swanage on Saturday.

Our correspondent Navtej

Johal can tell us more.

What else did her father said?

Victoria, this has been such a sad

story and yesterday the father of

19-year-old Gaia Pope, Richard

Sutherland, who was understand be

very emotional, said his daughter

had had a lot of issues and clearly

just could not cope with that. One

of the issues was her severe

epilepsy, with which he said she was

struggling badly but he said his

daughter had also had happy moments

right up to the end of her life,

despite health problems. Last night

on the BBC, paid tribute to his

daughter.

I think...I see it as,

our beautiful bird has flown.

She's not with us in body,

but she remains in our hearts and

with us for ever.

So while the loss of her

in one way is immeasurable,

we will treasure her

and honour her always.

And I say, Gaia, you're not in pain

any more, my darling.

We love you.

I love you.

Victoria, your audience will

remember that Gaia went missing on

the 7th of November and it took

police 11 days before her body was

found on Saturday. Hundreds of

people volunteered in the search,

searching the hills above the

coastal town of Swanage in Dorset

where she went missing. Three people

were arrested and released during

the enquiry. They will face no

further action, police have told us.

But they also say now there is

nothing to suggest anyone else was

involved in Gaia's death and they

are treating it as unexplained. The

family are distraught at the amount

of time it has taken for police to

find her body but Dorset Police have

responded, saying it had an

obligation to follow every possible

line of enquiry. The force is now

awaiting the results of a toxicology

test and meanwhile, the family have

now asked to be left alone to

grieve.

Thank you.

Coming up, British explorer

Benedict Allen is home after going

missing in Papua New Guinea.

We'll be live with him

later this morning.

A group of 75 workers,

including porters and receptionists,

are going to a tribunal

to try to win more rights at work.

As outsourced employees -

in this case they're supplied

to the University of London

by an outside company -

they don't receive the same benefits

as those employed directly.

They say the university should

be a "joint employer",

which mean they would get the same

pension and holiday pay rights

as those directly employed

the University of London.

The university disagrees.

If the case is successful,

it could affect around 3 million

outsourced workers in the UK.

Our legal affairs correspondent

Clive Coleman has been

finding out about the case.

Henry Chango Lopez's

day starts early,

with the first of his two jobs.

I woke up at four o'clock

this morning, travelled

one hour to Southwark.

And here I am to do my

two hours of cleaning.

Henry is one of many

workers who are outsourced.

In other words, he's employed

by a facilities company that can

provide his services to another

company or organisation.

At 7.30, I'm at the University

of London to do my job as a porter.

Many big organisations outsource,

which means that instead

of employing cleaners,

security guards and other

often low-paid staff,

they pay a facilities company

to provide these workers.

So, while maintaining control over

the way people work and often

setting their pay and conditions,

they can avoid some

of the legal responsibilities

of being an employer.

That can mean far worse pensions,

holiday and sick pay

for the outsourced workers.

Now a group including Henry,

employed by the facilities company

Cordant and supplied

to London University,

are seeking a tribunal

ruling that the university

is recognised along with Cordant

as their joint employer.

The union supporting

the workers says that there

is an important principle at stake.

The outsourced workers

at the University of London,

for example the security guards,

for all intents and purposes

work for the university.

The university is the entity that

essentially decides what their pay

and terms and conditions

are going to be.

Unless they can negotiate directly

with the university,

they can't really negotiate over

their pay and terms and conditions.

UK law has never recognised

the concept that workers could have

joint employers for the purpose

of negotiating their

terms and conditions.

If it did, the consequences

could be huge.

It would be enormous.

There would be about 3.5 million

outsourced employees whose terms

and conditions would improve

because now they would be

on the same terms and conditions

as the people they work alongside

every day,

but who are directly employed.

And for the employers, of course,

there would also be an impact

because it would be more expensive

to improve those

terms and conditions.

Henry says that for him,

it could be a game-changer.

If the law recognised the University

of London as my employer,

my life would change massively,

because I wouldn't have to do two

jobs as I am doing at the moment,

where I have to wake up at five

o'clock in the morning every day

in order to make ends meet.

In terms of pensions,

I would be able to retire

with a good pension,

not the one I have at the moment.

In a statement, the University of

London said:

For Henry Chango Lopez,

for now at least, the early mornings

and the long days continue.

We can now speak to Glen Jacques,

one of the subcontracted

workers who is bringing this case.

He works as a security officer

for the University of London.

Danny Millum is branch secretary

of the University of London IWGB.

He also works at the University

of London as a full-time employee.

Melanie Eusebe is a business

analyst and professor

at Hull International

Business School.

Daphne Romney QC

is a barrister specialising

in employment law who

you saw in Clive's film.

You have been subcontracted by the

university to provide security. Have

you always been in the subcontracted

position?

No, when I first started

working at the university I was

employed directly by the university

and for the first two years I was

employed by them, then the contract

companies took over. Soy was

tunedied over to the contract

company. We lost our pension and the

university pay a good deal with the

pension scheme so when that stopped

we lost that so we had to make our

own way with the pensions. That's

one of the reasons I took the job

because it was one I was going to

hope to stay there for the rest of

my days and get a good pension and

that was out of the window and there

were some people who had been

working there for 30 years and they

have lost that pension now.

So for a

number of years you have been in the

position of working for the outside

company, working alongside full-time

employees of the university, but

without the pension contributions,

without the holiday pay, the sick

pay, without the same rights. What

does that feel like?

Well, to be

honest, with my point of view I was

tupeed over so some of the

conditions were the same. It is

mainly the pension, but it is the

other contract staff they lost

everything. They were getting sick

pay and they had to fight for that,

everything to match what the direct

employees was getting was by the

unions fighting for it because they

had lost it all. The only thing is

the contract company that first took

over, we were treated pretty badly.

We weren't treated, we were treated

like second-class citizens to be

honest.

Well, you don't have the

same pension rights, that's one of

them.

It was even the treatment by

the managers themselves that was

pretty bad.

Danny, why isn't the

answer here to campaign to protest,

do whatever you want, with the

contract company rather than the

University of London?

Yeah, we were

chatting about this before we

started actually and I think the

deal is that it's the University of

London that decide all of these

terms and conditions. So, for

instance in the past, in 2011 when

the university brought in the London

Living Wage, again, that had

contractors at the time and the

university agreed that they would

make up the difference. They would

pay that to the contractors and they

have done the same thing when we

fought for improved terms of

holidays and for sick pay. Again the

university stepped in and paid that.

So, it's at every juncture, it is

the university that's responsible

here.

They disagree. They say the

university doesn't employ any of the

workers and they don't accept that

the relevant legislation recognises

the concept of joint employment and

therefore we have not agreed to the

union's request for recognition.

I wonder what you say from a

business point of view in terms of

an outsourced company giving the

same rights as the full-time

employees?

We have to look at why

companies outsource in the first

place. So it is not necessarily

about cost-cutting measures.

Sometimes it is just about putting a

capability in one place so for

example, the University of London,

they are an educational fal silt so

they say OK, you know what,

cleaning, accounting, IT, tech, we

outsource it to another organisation

because we are not specialists, but

there are people who are

specialists, however, in regards to

specifically outsourcing workers, we

know for a fact that companies have

done this to get away from the

rights and obligations, the legal

obligations that they have towards

taking care of their employees and

so, quite frankly I would say why

are we not looking at Cordent.

That's the outsourced firm?

Why

aren't we looking at that contract

that they have with the individuals

rather than looking at someone who

is further down the supply chain?

Daphne, what chance of success in

terms of this case?

It's an

interesting legal concept which is

what clients hate hearing because so

what? It is an interesting legal

concept. It's not something that's

recognised in the UK at the moment.

What's been said here is that by

reason of the degree of control,

that's going on with the university,

over these workers, they should be

recognised as having some sort of

control over them for the purpose

therefore being recognised.

Ie joint

employer.

The case in the is about

whether or not they should be

recognised, the union recognised as

speaking for them. It is partly to

do with the European Convention on

Human Rights which is not the same

as the EU and therefore will apply

after Brexit and one of the

conditions there, article 11, says

there is freedom of association. So,

it's partly being fought on that

basis. It's quite exploratory and

therefore, it's quite important

because if it's right, then anybody

who is working as a contract worker

could find themselves getting a

whole raft of rights which they

don't currently enjoy.

The key thing

here is these guys are total

integrated with the work we do. So I

work in the institute for historical

research and Glen works there. On a

day-to-day basis we are using the

same systems, we are providing

training for him and he is providing

support for us. People who will be

coming into the institute would see

Glen as the face of the institute.

He has been there for longer than I

have.

No one would dispute that.

Yet, the university essentially is

determining everything about his

day-to-day life. The manager is

giving him instructions and

university staff are giving him

instructions as well, but at the

same time he has no capacity to

negotiate his terms and conditions

with them.

Who is your line manager?

That's another problem. I have got

the manager of the institute, but

then I have got the manager for the

contract company as well so I have

to answer to both of them.

You have

got two managers in a joint kind of

way.

Yes. Sometimes if you go to the

university manager, the contract

company will tell you you shouldn't

be going to the client directly.

What do do you there? It happened

with the first contract company,

maybe they should discuss it with

each other and let me know what they

want me to do because I was like a

tennis ball hit from one place to

the next.

These things are about

control and you are seeing this with

the Uber cases and the gig economy

cases, who is giving the

instructions? Who has the capacity

to say do this, do that and if

people are working in the university

side by side with direct employees,

but their terms and conditions are

less, their holidays are less,

everything is less, then in effect

you've got a second class layer of

employment. So, there is a legal

question and there is also a moral

question and a morale question.

A

final word from you.

Outsourcing is

not a bad thing. It is something we

use all the time. Professional

services, who do you listen to? The

client or your own firm? But in the

case where we are using it as a tool

to take away the rights and the

employment rights of our own people,

that's when we have to look at it

closely and go straight to the

contracting company.

I just wanted

to just say that it's also massively

discriminatory that 80% of the staff

employed as contract staff are

black, minority or ethnic. It is

clear this is unfair on that basis

as well.

Thank you, all of you.

Thank you very much. Thank you for

coming on the programme.

Collectively British women spend

about £250 million a year

on tampons and sanitary towels -

£12 million of which goes

to the treasury in VAT,

or what's known as the "tampon tax".

The fact that such products aren't

deemed a basic necessity,

and thereby exempt from VAT,

has prompted a campaign

to try and change that

in the last few years.

In 2018, it should change.

The European Commission says it's

aiming to bring in a zero tax rate

for sanitary products and the UK

Government has already legislated

to allow this to happen as soon

as rules change.

Today, the BBC has put up

on our website a tampon tax

calculator, that allows you to see

how much you've spent so far

in your life on sanitary products

and so how much you've spent

on the tax, too.

Have a look at this.

Let's talk now to Laura Croyton,

who has campaigned since 2013

to end the tampon tax.

Rachel Krengel has had times

when she hasn't been able to afford

to buy sanitary products.

Thank you for coming on the

programme. Laura £12 million in tax

from the 5% VAT on sanitary

products, how do you react?

It's a

huge figure for individuals, but not

that big for the Government.

So, it's not that much for them to

sacrifice, but it's a lot for the

individual person.

You started this

campaign a few years ago. How far do

you think it has come and how much

further is there to go?

I think it's

come a long way in that the

Government have said they will end

the tampon tax, it is a case of

making sure they do it and that's

going to take a while because of

Brexit and the EU situation which is

very irritating.

I am not sure it is

to do with Brexit. The Government,

as you rightly say, strongly support

cutting the VAT rate on sanitary

products to zero. They can't under

EU law, but the EU Commission next

year, before we've Brexited is going

to bring in this change in rules

which means we can do it. So it is

not to do with Brexit.

They said

whichever comes first, whether that

changes at the EU or we leave the

EU.

Rachel, hello.

Hi.

You have

experienced period poverty. Some of

our audience will know what it is,

but just explain.

The definition we

use is the inability to access

menstrual products, we say

menstrual. So that can be, for me it

was in large part financial. We were

in this horrible financial

situation. Very young children. We

were both young. My partner lost his

job. I was the birth control I was

on, I was bleeding for a long time

and it wasn't something we could

budget for. It's in large part

because of taboo and because of

stigma and because of lack of

education. So, at this point I never

went to a foodbank. I had amazing

support networks. When we had no

money, people would buy us food.

People would lend us money for food,

shopping, my sister bought my

daughter a winter coat which was

amazing. I never asked anyone

because in my mind at the time this

was something that was only about

me, it wasn't about the rest of the

family and it was something I could

hide. It was something I could deal

with privately and something in my

heart of hearts I felt like I should

be hiding.

Right, that's

interesting, isn't it? I'm going to

ask you how did you cope? What did

you do?

I was able to budget a

little bit. So I would have some

menstrual pads, not nearly enough

for the month. So I would wear them

for a very long time. Not going to

go, you know, it is national TV in

the morning. Just to say it is not

pleasant.

Yeah. Yeah.

I had a

diaphragm which was not comfortable

and not safe, please nobody do it

because I've just said it. Sometimes

I would not use anything. I wasn't

leaving the house much, we didn't

have money to go anywhere.

Fair

enough. The Government gives all

funds from menstrual products, gives

the tax to charities. To women's

charities. Last month it gave to an

anti-abortion charity, but it did

say that the £250,000 to the Life

charity could not be spent on

funding counselling, education,

publicity or promotion. How do you

react to that, Laura?

It's an issue

that it didn't need to go into and

that if a charity has any bias

towards an issue that women are very

divided on, it shouldn't really get

involved in that.

Right.

I think it

was just unnecessary to do that with

women's money.

Thank you both. Thank you very much,

Laura. Thank you, Rachel for coming

on the programme.

Let's get the latest weather

update with Simon King.

Hello Victoria. It has been a really

mild start to the day.

It is going to turn colder by the

end of the week. But in the

meantime, despite the mild weather,

it is cloudy. This is just one

example in Durham. Some outbreaks of

rain affecting northern parts of

England, up into Scotland. That rain

will continue across Scotland

particularly western areas. A strong

easterly wind developing here as

well. Drier spells elsewhere, but

further rain spreads into Wales and

the Midlands and north Wention

later. Temperatures, 13, 14, 15, but

in brighter spells, we could see 16

or 17 Celsius. Tonight is breezy.

Outbreaks of rain at times for

England and Wales. That will become

more confined towards northern parts

of England and Northern Ireland by

the early hours of Wednesday

morning, but again, a mild night

with temperatures staying in double

figures. During Wednesday that rain

will finance to move northward.

The best of the dry and bright

weather towards the South East where

temperatures could be up into about

16 or 17 Celsius.

Bye-bye.

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme.

Our top story, the government has

agreed the UK Government should

offer more money for its divorce

from the EU but only of trade talks

begin next month.

As the big B sub Brexit backed Mrs

May over a bigger divorce Bill,

there is anger among Tory MPs for

more money for Brussels. We will get

reaction from a leading Brexit in

the next half an hour. -- Brexiteer.

In an exclusive interview

on this programme,

three survivors of genocide join

forces to stand up to extremism.

He was such a nice guy.

But I couldn't understand how this

very nice guy could become so nasty.

We all need to accept

that we are born with the capacity

to become perpetrators.

The whole time, you were always

waiting for someone to come and take

you away and kill you.

Someone says, "Such brave, brave

souls, thanks for the coverage".

Another says, "Thankfully impactful

courage." Gary says, "Those guys

were unbelievable and to think we

worry about what we have to deal

with". The full interview is

available on social media.

And in just a moment,

we'll be talking to the British

explorer Benedict Allen,

who is now back in the country

after going missing in a remote area

of Papua New Guinea.

Time for the latest BBC News with

Rebecca.

Good morning.

The BBC understands that senior

Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

should offer to pay more money

to leave the EU, but only if member

states agree to move

on to discussing trade next month.

Theresa May met colleagues

including Michael Gove

and Boris Johnson last night,

and is expected to make

the new offer to the EU

during talks later this week.

Robert Mugabe is expected to face

the start of impeachment proceedings

today after refusing to step down

as President of Zimbabwe.

The country's ruling party, Zanu-PF,

said the process could take just

two days to complete.

The 93-year-old, who remains under

armed guard, is accused

of allowing his wife

to seize power illegally.

Last night, the military

suggested a plan was emerging

for the transfer of power.

The Government's borrowing level

rose by £500 million last month,

reaching a total of £8 billion.

That's up 6.9% compared with October

2016, according to the Office

for National Statistics.

Our business presenter

Susannah Streeter has more.

How unexpected is this rise?

Actually, a poll of Reuters

economists forecast it would be

around £7 billion for October 2017

but as you say, it is actually

standing at £8 billion, more than

expected, up 6.9% in bed to October

2016. -- compared to October 2000

16. It is thought to be specifically

because of a rise in the cost of

government borrowing. Those costs

were up 25% and that is all linked

to rising inflation because the cost

of index linked bonds is going up.

This certainly gives Chancellor

Philip Hammond less room for

manoeuvre in his budget that he is

unveiling tomorrow. He wanted to try

to allocate more money towards

house-building, for example, but it

certainly seems as though he will

have less money to play with.

However, he will say that he is

still on track to reduce the deficit

because in the first seven months of

the financial year, the deficit had

fallen by 9.6%.

Susannah Streeter,

there.

Staff employed by the outsourcing

company Cordant are asking

a tribunal to rule that they have

the right to negotiate better terms

and conditions with the University

of London where they work.

The landmark case has implications

for more than 3 million workers

in the UK's business services

industry, who are hired

through facilities companies.

The university says it doesn't

employ any of the workers

and doesn't accept their concept

of "joint employment".

Finally, watch this.

A camera operator who waited

40 minutes to film

a stadium demolition...

missed it.

The Georgia Dome in Atlanta,

which hosted the Super Bowl

and the Olympics, was reduced

to rubble by a controlled

demolition, but something

got in the way...

You couldn't make it up!

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am.

I love the way he's having a

conversation with the bus, like it

can hear him.

Get in touch with us. On Christmas

lights, Eleanor said she has got

them up inside. "We Don't have

lights outside but I love to start

decorating Ellie. Why not? The

lights make my home so much nicer

and warmer". And another says

"People put their Christmas

digressions up early to get into the

spirit, it is a good thing and it

makes people happy, end of". But

someone else is with me, "Fairy

lights in November? No."

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

You can use WhatsApp and Facebook

for free.

Here's some sport now with Olly.

England batsman Alastair Cook says

they have pretty much accepted that

Ben Stokes is going to play no part

in the Ashes Series. The all-rounder

is awaiting the outcome of a police

investigation after a brawl outside

a nightclub in September. He was

arrested on suspicion of causing

actual bodily harm. Stokes posted

this on Instagram yesterday, keeping

himself trim in the nets at Durham,

bowling, batting, seemingly ready to

join up with his team-mates if he is

cleared. Here are his team-mates,

training in Brisbane, where

Australia have not lost a Test match

in almost 30 years. The first Test

match starts on Thursday, well,

overnight Wednesday our time.

England hold the Ashes but the last

time they were in Australia almost

four years ago, they lost 5-0,

whitewashed. They are certainly a

weaker side without Ben Stokes.

Well, you're talking about it.

It is a news line for us.

Of course, and we understand,

I understand the game.

It has been a while

since the incident.

Certainly as a player, in the first

couple of weeks after, it

was what everyone was talking about.

It was not great and we pretty much

accepted it was unlikely

that Ben would be here.

You can't always pin

your hopes on one guy.

If there is a bonus of him

making the trip at some

stage, that would be great,

but I can honestly say

it has not been spoken

about in the changing room.

It's no good for us

to talk about that.

England's women have already lost

their Ashes Series but they can

level the series if they win the

final T20 match in Canberra. It does

not look likely. Australia have

posted a formidable target, open a

Beth Mooney unbeaten on 117, her

maiden century coming off 70

deliveries from Australia finishing

on 170-2 from their 20 overs. The

Chase has started, England have

already lost three wickets. Natalie

Sciver the last to go, run out, 36-3

is the latest scores so it looks

like they will lose the series as

well.

Brighton are now unbeaten in five

matches in the Premier League,

coming from behind twice to earn a

point against Stoke at home.

Izquierdo made it 2-2 at the Amex

Stadium. They are ninth and Stoke

remained 15th, four points above the

relegation zone. That is all for

now. The headlines in the next half

an hour.

The British explorer

Benedict Allen is back in Britain.

He went missing in a remote area

of Papua New Guinea as he tried

to reach a little known-tribe.

He's been diagnosed with strains of

both malaria and dengue fever after

getting stranded in remote

mountains.

He's a friend of Frank Gardner,

our security correspondent,

who is with him now for his first TV

interview this morning.

Hello, gentlemen. Hello, Frank and

Benedict, welcome home.

Good morning. He can't hear you but

that is nothing to do with malaria.

He just can't you. I have got you in

my ear but says good morning as

well. As you can see, Benedict Allen

is beside me. I'm going to take it

away. He is beside me here, at

little disorientated by the fever

that he has had but he has just

stepped off a plane. Benedict, I'm

afraid I'm going to have to start by

asking you, what were you thinking,

going trekking without a satellite

phone or a GPS locator when you have

got a young family back home who

were worried sick about you?

Well,

it does not look very good but I'm

not... I'm known as an explorer but

the fact of the matter is, I'm a

specialist at going to very remote

places. I've spent three decades

doing this kind of thing and I know

Papua New Guinea very well. I used

to live there.

Are you still

witnessing, essentially.

Yes because

a lot of circumstances combined

against me. There was a huge amount

of unexpected rains, one of the

grapevine bridges we had to cross to

get across a raging torrent was

swept away by floods. Then as we

climbed higher, I was trying to

track down some people are used to

live with and as it went on, I began

to feel chills, began to feel

uncomfortable at night and I knew I

might well have malaria. I've had it

five times, almost died of it twice

so that. Into the problem, it slowed

me further down and then the final

blow, there was a war going on

between two different communities

ahead of me so I suddenly found my

way out of the forest was blocked.

What do you mean by a wall?

There's

a lot of intercommunity fighting in

Papua New Guinea, it's the most

linguistically diverse place in the

world, there's a huge number of

languages, 850 language groups so

people are fighting all the time and

I was trapped.

Just to be clear, you

were very well looked after by

everyone you were with, you were

never threatened.

You were asking,

why go without a phone? Part of the

reason is I have a back-up, my

back-up is not being able to summon

a helicopter or something like that,

it is to use local resources and be

friends with people who can help

you. The forest is not a threat to

them, it is they home and give them

food, medicine and shelter so I had

resources and the local people are

always friendly to me without

exception, I was passed through the

forest by different local groups. It

was great until the malaria kicked

in.

What was your worst moment?

The

realisation that that time it did

not look good at all. I was dropping

into fever and out of it and I had

to make a statement to my family...

You made a farewell video message?

Yeah, bearing in mind I'd never gone

on an expedition, a tough solo

endeavour like this while a parent

before. It had just been me as a

young man before and now I have

three children, who are ten, seven

and two, and it was heartbreaking,

talking to the camera about... Well,

saying, don't worry, I won't value

but in my heart, I thought I might

well fail so I had to say that if

anybody found the footage, they

should take it to the High

Commission because I might be dead

and this is my family and I showed