06/12/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


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06/12/2017

Victoria hosts an audience debate over Brexit so far. Plus calls for a new way to tackle youth offending and the man in court over an alleged plot to kill Theresa May.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

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Welcome to the programme.

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Our top story today -

a man is due in Westminster

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Magistrates' Court this morning over

an alleged plot to kill Theresa May.

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We'll bring you the details.

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Also on the programme,

will showing a greater understanding

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of what leads a young offender

to commit a crime

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help cut offending?

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The chief inspector

of probation thinks so.

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It's about taking a step back and

really thinking about this much more

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long-term. Sometimes spending many

months working with this young

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person to build that relationship

before you start that for shaping

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activity. Often those young people

have not had continuous emotional

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relationships in their lives and it

can make a very substantial

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difference.

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We'll talk to those

involved in the scheme.

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And your assessment on how

the Brexit negotiations

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are going so far.

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Too slowly. We need to move on to

trade talks and give business

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certainty.

No way. We need to go

more slowly because speed costs

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money in negotiations.

These

negotiations are complex.

It is a

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shambles. Theresa May doesn't know

how to negotiate and these far too

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soft.

It is a quagmire created by a

lack of fore sight by the

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Government.

Let us know how you think Brexit

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negotiations are going. We will

speak to our audience of voters in

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the next half an hour.

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Hello and welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am.

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Throughout the morning

the latest breaking news

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and developing stories and as

always, keen to hear from you.

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A little later we'll be talking

about debt over Christmas.

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Are you struggling this year?

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Are you having to use your overdraft

facility in order to fund Christmas?

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Lots of people are according to

research from a debt charity today.

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Share your situation with us. Use

the hashtag Victoria live. You can

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e-mail and whatsapp and message me

on Facebook. If you are texting, we

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will have to charge you.

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Our top story today.

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A man is due to appear in court

today, accused of a plot to attack

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Downing Street and kill the

Prime Minister.

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Another man will also appear,

charged with terrorism offences.

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Let's get more on this

with June Kelly, who's

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at Westminster Magistrates' Court

in central London.

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Number Ten Downing Street,

the target of an alleged Islamist

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plot to kill the Prime Minister.

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It's understood the allegations

involved a plan to bomb the security

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gates at the entrance

to Downing Street and then

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in the ensuing chaos,

launch a knife attack

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against Theresa May.

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Two men are due to appear before

Westminster Magistrates' today

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charged with terrorism offences.

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Naa'imur Zakariyah "Khan" is 20

and Mohammed Aqib Imran is 21.

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Andrew Parker, the head of MI5,

briefed the Prime Minister

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and the Cabinet yesterday about nine

alleged terror plots that have been

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foiled since March this year.

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In the House of Commons,

the Home Secretary said police

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would have the money they needed.

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We will shortly be

announcing the budgets

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for policing for 2017-2018.

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I am clear that we must ensure

counterterrorism policing has

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the resources needed to deal

with the threats that we face.

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Yesterday, a report into the four

terror attacks in the UK this year

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said some of those who carried them

out were known to

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the security services.

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It suggested it was conceivable

the Manchester Arena attack

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which killed 22 people

could have been stopped.

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15-year-old Olivia Campbell-Hardy

was among those victims.

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Her grandfather said he wasn't

blaming the security services.

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They're gonna do the best they can

with the information they have

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got and they gather,

assess themselves,

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assess the situation,

make decisions, and act on it.

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I will not fault anybody

for doing their job.

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The security services say the level

of threat remains unprecedented,

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with over 500 active

counter terror investigations.

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More on that throughout the

programme, of Cors.

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Ben Brown is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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The White House says President Trump

is to break with decades of American

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policy on Israel and is to recognise

Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

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He's also due to begin the process

of moving the US embassy

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to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv,

a process which may

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take several years.

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Arab leaders have warned

against moving the embassy,

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saying it would be "a flagrant

provocation to Muslims".

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Our correspondent is in Jerusalem

for us. Give us an idea of the

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reaction to this?

Well, this is

something that really goes to the

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heart of one of the thorniest issues

in the Israel-mrn conflict.

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Basically, Jerusalem is seen by the

Israelis as being their eternal

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undivided capital, so for this, this

is going to correct what they see as

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a historic injustice and Donald

Trump will recognise sovereignty of

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Israel over Jerusalem, a city where

they say they have 3,000 years of

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Jewish history, that's the seat of

the Israeli government. On the

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Palestinian side, well the

Palestinians claim East Jerusalem is

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the capital of their future state.

That's why for decades international

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consensus has been that only in an

negotiated peace deal between Israel

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and the Palestinians should the

status of Jerusalem be worked out.

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Palestinians and other Arab leaders

have spoken to Donald Trump by

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phone. They have expressed alarm

over this. They have said this could

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inflame religious tensions in region

because East Jerusalem is where you

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have got the old city with its

religious sites, holy to dues and

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Muslims and to Christians and they

are saying it going to upset Donald

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Trump's plans of being a broker for

the ultimate deal as he has called

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it between Israel and the

Palestinians bringing peace to this

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region.

Thank you very much indeed.

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The family of an 81-year-old woman

has received a £45,000 pay-out

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after she was kept alive

against her will.

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Brenda Grant made a living

will stating she feared degradation

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and indignity more than death

after seeing her mum lose

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her independence through dementia.

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But the George Eliot hospital,

in Nuneaton, Warwickshire,

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misplaced the document

and she was artificially

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fed for 22 months.

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Russia has been banned from taking

part in next year's Winter Olympics

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in South Korea following a report

into systematic doping

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at the 2014 Games.

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Individual athletes will be

allowed to take part

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if they can prove a doping-free

background, but must compete

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under a neutral flag.

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The deputy speaker of the Russian

parliament has called the ban

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a "humiliation and an insult".

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Tens of thousands of people have

been forced to flee from the path

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of wildfires in southern California.

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Hundreds of buildings have been

destroyed by the blazes and several

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thousand homes are under mandatory

evacuation in the cities

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of Ventura and Santa Paula,

north of Los Angeles.

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California has been hit hard

by wildfires in recent months.

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At least 40 people were killed

when fires ripped through parts

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of northern California's wine

region in October.

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James Cook has the latest

from Los Angeles.

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There will be hundreds of homes that

have been destroyed. Tens of

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thousands of people have fled and

just tonight, in the past few

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minutes, the breaking news is that

the extraordinary scene is that the

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fire has reached the Pacific Ocean.

It has leapt over the main coastal

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motorway and is burning on the very

edge of the Pacific. It seems the

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water is the only thing that can

stop this blaze.

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James Cook reporting.

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Banks should end all

unauthorised overdraft charges

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because they are trapping people

in persistent debt, the financial

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charity Step Change has said.

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It says two million people in the UK

used their overdraft facility

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every month last year.

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The organisation wants banks

and regulators to do more

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to identify people caught up

in a "vicious cycle of borrowing".

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There are calls for a new way

of working with young offenders

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to cut levels of re-offending.

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Her Majesty's Inspector

of Probation, Dame Glenys Stacey,

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has told the Victoria Derbyshire

programme she wants to see

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a new approach rolled out

across England and Wales.

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It would mean building

a relationship with offenders

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between the ages of ten to 18

and working out what has led

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to their offending before asking

them to change their behaviour.

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The winner of this year's

prestigious Turner Prize

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was announced in Hull last night.

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Lubaina Himid has become both

the oldest winner and the first ever

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woman of colour to take the award.

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The 63-year-old artist

was born in Zanzibar,

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but is now based in Preston,

and uses her work to address racial

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politics and the legacy of slavery.

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I think the history of what we've

contributed is underrepresented.

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Black people contributed

with their lives, in

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the very first place.

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And we've continued to contribute

culturally in all sorts of ways.

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Scientifically, every which way.

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And that is recognised every now

and again, but it's not woven

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into the British story.

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Christine Keeler,

the model at the centre

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of the Profumo affair

of the 1960s, has died.

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The 19-year-old became famous

after it emerged she'd had an affair

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with both the Conservative minister

John Profumo and with

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a Russian diplomat at

the height of the Cold War.

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The scandal was considered by many

to be the downfall of the Macmillan

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government and she was vilified

by the press at the time.

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As they say, if at first you don't

succeed, try, try and try again.

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Which is exactly what demolition

experts in the US state

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of Michigan have had to do!

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After attempting and failing seven

times on Sunday to demolish

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the derelict Silverdome stadium,

the former home of the American

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football team the Detroit Lions,

things finally went

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to plan yesterday.

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Explosions removed the upper

level of the old stadium,

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the lower levels are set to be

demolished next year.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30am.

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It is so mesmerising to watch

pictures of buildings being

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destroyed for some reason.

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning,

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use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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There is a scheme in Nottinghamshire

for several years which is an

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attempt to cut the re-offending

rates. So people who have already

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been in Young Offenders Institutions

to make sure they don't commit

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another crime when they come out.

Seven out of ten people do reoffend

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having been in custody which is a

really high figure and governments

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over rears have tried to work out

how to tackle the re-offending

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rates. We'll bring you the details

of this scheme after 9.30am. Dave on

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Facebook has got an answer on how to

tackle youth re-offending. "Get

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tough. Harder sentences.

American-style boot camps. Get

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tougher in schools. Make parents

responsible. Plenty of ideas there.

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Get on with it." Says Dave. Anthony

on Facebook says, "There should be

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some sort of boot camp where they

are sent once they offend, but not

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serious offences. No PlayStation or

know mobile phones, limited internet

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access etcetera. Make them work

whilst they're in there, but give

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them a sense of self worth, a decent

education or trade so that when they

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come out, they can start to live a

decent life."

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Our film is coming up after 9.30am.

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Let's get some sport with Hugh.

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The England team demoralised after

losing the second Test?

England

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could be staring at another

embarrassing Ashes Series defeat.

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They are 2-0 in the best of five

series after the hosts Australia

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took a 121 run win in Adelaide.

England had offered a glimmer of

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hope going into the final day. They

needed what was an unlikely 178 to

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win, but they had six wickets in

hand and I woke up like many this

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morning to check if the near

impossible was still on and of

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course, they had already lost and

they were swept aside. Chris Woakes

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went with the second ball of the

day. That was before his captain Joe

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Root went in the next over. Not

great for England at that point.

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They did make a brief stand. Jonny

Bairstow helping to get them towards

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the figure, but in the end,

dismissal, Mitchell's Starc's fifth

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wicket. They lost their final six

wickets in the opening session of

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the day. So really, Victoria, the

momentum now well and truly with

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Australia. Their bowler Josh

Hazlewood said they expected more

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fight from England on the final day.

We will see if they can bounce back

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and add some fight going forward

from this point.

Yes. I mean, it

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feels suddenly like the winter is

stretching ahead, doesn't it? It

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could be a very long winter. Where

do they go from here? What can they

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do? Is there any chance of Ben

Stokes coming back?

It's very, very

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small chance of Ben Stokes coming

back. Much of the concern though out

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in Australia seems to be over

England's batting. He would have

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helped with that, of course, neither

their batsmen or bowlers fired in

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the first innings of this Test in

Adelaide. The first innings deficit

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was more than 200. The first time

since 19.81 that happened to

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England. They haven't been able to

turn their 50, into tonnes in the

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way Australia have. Joe Root the

captain made three 50s out of his

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four times at bat in the Ashes

Series so far. He hasn't made a

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century yet. In the second half,

England improved, but it was too

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little, too late. Root is

optimistic. Here is what he had to

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say afterwards.

The way we went

about the second proved to everyone

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really that we are still massively

in this series. I think it's as

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simple as that. We've shown that

throughout the two games, with

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periods that we can outperform

Australia, but just not for five

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days and that's going to be our

challenge really. If we get that

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right, and we can perform to our

ability for longer periods of time

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then we will win games. Simple as

that.

They are looking for that

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consistency that he mentioned before

the third Test in Perth which starts

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next Thursday. If Australia win that

Test, they will regain the Ashes.

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They haven't won in Perth for nearly

40 years. Things aren't about to get

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any easier for them, Victoria. It

will take a big swing for England if

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they are to turn the Ashes Series

around.

Cheers, Hugh. More from Hugh

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throughout the morning, of course.

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This morning 52% of you voted

for it, but now making it happen

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is proving a little tricky .

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Brexit talks are stalling over

the issue of the Northern Ireland

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border with the government trying

to find a way to reconcile what it

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planned to agree with the EU,

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with the demands of the Democratic

Unionist Party?

0:15:550:16:03

Whether you voted to leave or

remain, what do you think about how

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the negotiations are being handled?

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Orange voted and campaign for

remain, I think the gauche Asians

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are going pretty shockingly, in

recent weeks, we have seen the line

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of Theresa May.

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-- I dink the negotiations are going

pretty shockingly.

I don't know

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where we go from here. Really

Conservative councillor for Essex, I

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supported remain during the

referendum, I think negotiations are

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really hard and complex.

There are

some common ground for ourselves and

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those we are negotiating with. Soon.

There is a deadline of next week, on

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the first phase, D-Link Theresa May

is capable of finding a solution

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full. I think we have seen

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what progress do you see being made

on the border issue?

So much noise

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and discussion over the last couple

of days shows that we are close to a

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solution. And apps there are others

that do not want us getting as close

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as we are getting and getting as

good a deal as we are getting and

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trying to throw obstacles in the

way.

At the beginning of the

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programme you said, Theresa May is

not a good negotiator.

Excuse me, my

0:17:400:17:46

name is Patricia Gulliver, I come

from Bromley, I am a member of Ukip,

0:17:460:17:50

obviously I voted to leave, and I

think that... I think it is a

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complete and utter shambles, when

you are negotiating for anything you

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put your cards on the table, you

say, this is what I want, and you

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let the other person say whether you

will get it or not. If you're not

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going to get it, and you cannot come

to an agreement, you walk away.

She

0:18:090:18:16

said, yes, we will go for that,

perhaps you did that, but it was the

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Democratic Unionist Party who

support the. It was not the people

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she was negotiating with, it was the

people who she may have would be

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supporting her.

That is now, that

has only just happened, we are

0:18:300:18:35

talking about 18 months ago when we

have the referendum.

We may

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interrupt our conversation because

"Brexit" secretary David Davis is

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giving evidence to a select

committee in Parliament when he will

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answer questions about why 58 impact

assessments, assessments on

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different sectors of the economy

after Brexit, have not been released

0:18:550:18:59

in full, some bits have been edited

out or redacted, or whatever

0:18:590:19:03

adjective you have used. We dip into

that when he starts talking.

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Introduce yourself.

My name is

Stuart, I come from Mornington, I

0:19:080:19:13

voted to leave, but I think

negotiations have become a bit

0:19:130:19:18

muddled. We have a rough idea where

we will go, but the Northern Ireland

0:19:180:19:24

border is more of an issue as you

say with the DUP partners. Seems to

0:19:240:19:30

me. Overall, that should not be a

problem, because there should be a

0:19:300:19:40

natural majority for agreement to be

passed in Parliament, without having

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to go through the governing party.

Who can see a solution that

0:19:470:19:57

politicians may not have seen.

My

name is Danny. Masters student,

0:19:570:20:03

Warwick University, I voted leave, I

think the solution is that

0:20:030:20:08

eventually, Theresa May agrees to

everything the EU is asking for.

0:20:080:20:12

This is not a negotiation, she does

not have much wiggle room around

0:20:120:20:15

their red lines, she has already

given up what she said she would not

0:20:150:20:19

give up as a financial settlement,

David Davis, last year, said he

0:20:190:20:23

would not agree to that, now it

looks like they have agreed to it.

0:20:230:20:27

The way to solve the problem is to

agree with what the EU wants, and

0:20:270:20:31

move the process forward in that

way.

He wants Britain to stay in the

0:20:310:20:35

EU.

That is not what they are saying

to us, at the moment, we have said,

0:20:350:20:40

you voted to leave so you can leave,

this is how we will go about

0:20:400:20:44

negotiations. Until the Irish issue

is settled, we cannot move forward.

0:20:440:20:48

Do you think that is fair enough? Do

you think we can move forward with

0:20:480:20:54

some kind of fudged words, so we can

sort out the Irish border issue

0:20:540:20:58

later on down the line.

I don't

think the EU have made it easy for

0:20:580:21:02

the UK in these negotiations but I

don't think that was the role of the

0:21:020:21:06

EU, the role of the EU was to

protect its own interests, role of

0:21:060:21:10

the UK is to protect its own

interest. People upset about the way

0:21:100:21:13

the EU have Han

handled

negotiations, they should not be

0:21:130:21:18

upset, if you are going to throw

people into chaos, do not be

0:21:180:21:21

surprised how they defend

themselves.

The Irish issue is not a

0:21:210:21:26

real issue. I see a lot of

investments coming into... I was

0:21:260:21:31

remain, but now I have changed my

mind, having seen what has happened

0:21:310:21:35

to the markets, investment into the

United Kingdom.

You cannot wait for

0:21:350:21:39

Britain to get out.

I can wait

because it cost a lot of money to

0:21:390:21:44

negotiate, but the DUP issue is a

ruse, anyone who has done any

0:21:440:21:49

negotiations will know, the easiest

thing in the world to do is say, it

0:21:490:21:51

is not me, it is the people behind

me making things difficult, give me

0:21:510:21:55

more concessions. We know the

Europeans do not want a border, we

0:21:550:21:59

do not want a border but it is the

best leveraged we have got to say,

0:21:590:22:03

it is the DUP.

You are saying Arlene

Foster of the DUP is making it

0:22:030:22:10

up...?

No, I think the negotiating

team is saying to the EU, we have

0:22:100:22:14

difficulties back home in closed

rooms.

I'm not sure that is right,

0:22:140:22:17

she was having lunch with

Jean-Claude Juncker, it was coming

0:22:170:22:20

to an end. Before that... A call

that she was not expecting.

Every

0:22:200:22:27

negotiation, is when somebody else,

then your hands are tied.

I am

0:22:270:22:32

interested you have changed your

mind. Because of the effects on the

0:22:320:22:37

industry you work in...

Not just my

industry.

Because of the falling

0:22:370:22:41

pound, what difference has it made.

More broadly, beyond what I do as a

0:22:410:22:46

fund manager, when I look at the

investments coming back to the

0:22:460:22:50

United Kingdom, to London, people

like Facebook, Google, Apple, the

0:22:500:22:54

falling pound has made it cheaper

for overseas investors to invest

0:22:540:22:58

here. When I am out in Singapore,

Hong Kong, India, I was so shocked

0:22:580:23:03

how clean they are to invest because

the pound has dropped, we still have

0:23:030:23:06

all the talent in the UK, this is

not rhetoric, because I was remain.

0:23:060:23:12

I speak to businesses, they are so

pleased with getting out of what

0:23:120:23:16

they see as a protectionist group in

Europe, so that they can invest in

0:23:160:23:20

this country. Money talks, you know

what, they are invested.

I am an

0:23:200:23:26

executive director at an official

Remain campaign in organisation,

0:23:260:23:31

London first, you talk about talent,

by no objective measure of these

0:23:310:23:36

talks going well for Theresa May at

the moment. -- London First. She has

0:23:360:23:40

in her gift one thing she can do,

that is to provide unilaterally

0:23:400:23:44

assurance that the 3 million EU

citizens currently living here will

0:23:440:23:48

have the right to remain after we

leave.

How big an issue is that for

0:23:480:23:53

London businesses?

Huge issue for

all businesses, EU workers doing

0:23:530:23:58

brilliant things, all around the

country. Brilliant business owners,

0:23:580:24:02

paying taxes, creating jobs. What

she could do, and this would

0:24:020:24:09

strengthen her arm in negotiations,

it would be such a gesture of

0:24:090:24:13

goodwill, unilaterally say, we are

going to enshrine in law the customs

0:24:130:24:16

date and exactly what those rights

are going to be for EU workers

0:24:160:24:19

currently here already.

We can see

David Davis now, the Labour chair of

0:24:190:24:28

their... We will cross to David

Davis right now, we will cross to it

0:24:280:24:38

now.

0:24:380:24:41

58 sectoral impact assessments

exist, so is it your contention that

0:24:410:24:47

the reason why you have not handed

over the impact assessments is

0:24:470:24:57

because you do not have them?

There

is a formal set published by the

0:24:570:25:01

better regulation task force, or

unit, which lays out what they are.

0:25:010:25:06

That is not the form of the sectoral

analysis, the sectoral analyses,

0:25:060:25:12

which were started back in 2016, are

essentially looking at what the

0:25:120:25:21

industries consist of, looking at

the size of them in terms of revenue

0:25:210:25:26

and capital and employment and is on

, it is the underpinning of a lot of

0:25:260:25:35

policy but it is not a forecast of

the outcome of leaving the European

0:25:350:25:39

Union or indeed various options

thereof. That is the first thing. I

0:25:390:25:47

think that point has been made, to

the house, in the motion. It has

0:25:470:25:55

been made by me, previously, in this

committee, and in the European Union

0:25:550:26:00

committee, and so on. What we are

trying to do is give as best we

0:26:000:26:04

could under the conditions I

specified. Without undermining our

0:26:040:26:12

negotiating position, and without

compromising commercial

0:26:120:26:19

confidentiality, or sensitivity,

market sensitive data and so on, and

0:26:190:26:25

that is the instruction I gave to my

department. It is the instruction I

0:26:250:26:30

gave out to the rest of Whitehall.

Remember the analysis are spread out

0:26:300:26:34

over Whitehall, the ownership of the

information is all over Whitehall.

0:26:340:26:39

That is why we did what we did to

give you the closest we could come

0:26:390:26:45

to the House of Commons motion.

Just

to be clear, has the government

0:26:450:26:52

undertaken any impact assessments on

the impact of leaving the EU for

0:26:520:26:56

different sectors...

What we do

have, the Treasury has an OD are

0:26:560:27:08

forecast, which has an indication...

Even that is pretty crude. -- ODR.

0:27:080:27:16

That is pretty crude, it is done

from the average of all the external

0:27:160:27:19

forecast. There is no systematic

impact assessment.

So, the arts to

0:27:190:27:28

the question is no, the government

has not undertaken any impact

0:27:280:27:32

assessments on the locations of

leaving the EU for different sectors

0:27:320:27:35

of the British economy. So there is

not one, for example, on the

0:27:350:27:42

automotive sector. Is there one on

aerospace?

Not that I'm aware of.

0:27:420:27:50

Financial services?

It is going to

be no, to all of them.

Doesn't it

0:27:500:27:54

strike you as rather strange, given

the experience around the committee

0:27:540:27:58

that you have, the government into

takes impact assessments on all

0:27:580:28:01

sorts of things, all the time, that

on most fundamental change we are

0:28:010:28:05

facing as a country, you have told

us, the government has not

0:28:050:28:10

undertaken any impact assessments at

all, looking at the impact on

0:28:100:28:14

individual sectors of the economy.

The first thing to say is, when

0:28:140:28:20

these analyses were initiated, they

were done to understand the effect

0:28:200:28:25

of various options. What the outcome

would be. We don't need to do an

0:28:250:28:31

impact assessment, a former impact

assessment, to understand that if

0:28:310:28:35

there is a regulatory hurdle between

our producers and market that it

0:28:350:28:40

will have an impact, and effect. The

assessment of that affect, I have

0:28:400:28:45

said to you before, is not as

straightforward as people imagine.

0:28:450:28:49

I'm not a fan of economic models,

they have all proven wrong. When you

0:28:490:28:55

have a paradigms change, as happened

in 2008, financial crisis, all the

0:28:550:29:04

models were wrong. The Queen

famously asked, why did we not know!

0:29:040:29:09

Similarly, what we are dealing with

here, in every outcome, whether it

0:29:090:29:13

is a free-trade agreement, whether

it is a WTO outcome or something in

0:29:130:29:18

between those points on the

spectrum, it is a paradigms change.

0:29:180:29:23

We know in terms not the scale, not

the size, but the magnitude order of

0:29:230:29:32

impact. The second point to make,

when we started... I am now calling

0:29:320:29:38

it impact... When we started the

analysis, I did not know in my mind

0:29:380:29:45

whether we would end up doing a

negotiation sector by sector. That

0:29:450:29:54

was the first thing to understand,

separate negotiation for automotive,

0:29:540:30:03

separate for financial services and

so on. Let's say asset managers. We

0:30:030:30:09

did not know that at the time. It

became clear quickly that that was

0:30:090:30:13

not going to be the approach, the

timetable available to work, and we

0:30:130:30:20

served the negotiating process, was

an overarching free-trade deal.

0:30:200:30:23

Individual sector analyses will not

be informative on it necessarily,

0:30:230:30:28

they are informative as to who is

vulnerable, we welcome back to that

0:30:280:30:32

with regional effects, it is

important that it is vulnerable, but

0:30:320:30:36

the impact assessment, as you turn

it, piece by piece... -- as you turn

0:30:360:30:42

it.

0:30:420:30:43

-- as you term it. We will do the

best we can to quantify the effect

0:30:470:30:52

of different negotiating outcomes as

we come to it. We have not yet

0:30:520:30:56

started phase two, yet. In

particular, we will try to assess...

0:30:560:31:01

We will try and assess the effect of

various outcomes in terms of the

0:31:060:31:15

over arching manufacturing industry,

agricultural and so on. We'll do

0:31:150:31:18

that a little closer to the

negotiating timetable. Now they fall

0:31:180:31:23

precisely in that area which I have

described as negotiation sensitive.

0:31:230:31:28

So if, for example, I had two

options for an industry, A and B

0:31:280:31:34

that I'm negotiating with the

European Union and one will be

0:31:340:31:36

beneficial to the tune of 50

billion, just picking that number

0:31:360:31:39

out of the air and the other option

will be negative by 10 billion, I'm

0:31:390:31:43

not going to publish that just

before I go into the negotiation

0:31:430:31:46

with the commission.

Right.

Now,

when they come, I can tell you they

0:31:460:31:51

are there, but I can't give them to

the committee at that point.

Well, I

0:31:510:31:55

will come on to what you haven't

given us, but you have just said you

0:31:550:32:00

haven't done that work yet. You've

said there are no impact decisions.

0:32:000:32:03

You were hoping that at the October

council, the door would be open to

0:32:030:32:07

phase two of the negotiations where

the question would be asked OK, so

0:32:070:32:11

what does the British Government

want? Are you actually telling us

0:32:110:32:15

that the Government hadn't at that

point and still hasn't, under taken

0:32:150:32:20

the assessment that you've just

described which you say we will do

0:32:200:32:23

at some point when you are hoping at

the December council to open the

0:32:230:32:26

door to phase two?

I reiterate the

point to you Mr Chairman. The

0:32:260:32:32

strategy we decided back way before

the October council, before March,

0:32:320:32:36

indeed before the triggering of

Article 50, was that we would go for

0:32:360:32:43

an over arching, comprehensive trade

deal. That will cover all sectors,

0:32:430:32:46

not one sector and within it, will

be a financial services sector, and

0:32:460:32:51

there will be some other tiers, some

specific ones like data and so on.

0:32:510:32:57

Some of them you can't quantify. You

cannot quantify the impact of data,

0:32:570:33:02

but it is a high effect impact. I

haven't quite finished, Mr Chairman.

0:33:020:33:09

Therefore, the usefulness of such a

detailed impact assessment is near

0:33:090:33:14

zero and given how we were

stretching our resources to get

0:33:140:33:17

where we were at the time, then it

was not a sensible use of resources.

0:33:170:33:23

Right, now if you're saying the

usefulness of that is near zero, why

0:33:230:33:28

did you tell the Foreign Affairs

Committee on 13th September 2016,

0:33:280:33:33

and I quote, "There is the analysis,

they are working through about 50

0:33:330:33:40

cross cutting sectors what is going

to happen to them." That sounds like

0:33:400:33:46

an impact assessment. What did Lord

Bridges when he told the

0:33:460:33:53

subcommittee on 13th October 2016

when he said, "We have cemented the

0:33:530:33:57

UK economy into roughly 100

production sectors. We have looked

0:33:570:34:00

at those to understand the size and

contribution that each of these

0:34:000:34:03

sectors makes to the economy and

used that to support our analysis of

0:34:030:34:10

the impact on them of Brexit." Now

that sounds very clear to me that

0:34:100:34:17

the Government has been looking at

the impact on individual sectors and

0:34:170:34:22

yet you've told us a moment ago that

you haven't done that yet. Which is

0:34:220:34:25

it? Either it has happened or it

hasn't?

We are talking September

0:34:250:34:30

2016. We were in existence over a

summer, from July, August,

0:34:300:34:34

September. We were still looking at

that point at what strategy we would

0:34:340:34:38

undertake. And so that's the first

thing. The second thing is...

0:34:380:34:43

STUDIO: Let's leave David Davis as

he is being questioned by Labour's

0:34:430:34:47

Hilary Benn. Julie says, "This is

painful. Mr Davis is saying the

0:34:470:34:52

Government hasn't done the

preparation needed to do its job."

0:34:520:34:56

Norman Smith has been listening. How

do you read it?

I thought the most

0:34:560:34:59

striking, I don't know if you saw

Hilary Benn as he was listening to

0:34:590:35:03

David Davis and his mouth was, he

was stunned that there are no impact

0:35:030:35:09

assessments on the effect of Brexit

on key areas of the UK economy,

0:35:090:35:14

saying what about the auto motive

sector and what about aerospace,

0:35:140:35:21

what about financial services. David

Davis is saying no, no, his argument

0:35:210:35:25

they have got so much to do with

Brexit it would be a waste of their

0:35:250:35:28

resources to start compiling the

reports and they are trying to get

0:35:280:35:31

some huge over arching trade deal so

they don't want to get bogged down

0:35:310:35:35

in individual areas. However, I

guarantee you there will be plenty

0:35:350:35:39

of Brexit critics who will say this

just goes to show the Government

0:35:390:35:43

hasn't got a clue what it is doing.

It hasn't done work to see what the

0:35:430:35:50

impact will be on major parts of the

British economy. So I suspect there

0:35:500:35:54

is going to be a right old row about

this.

Cheers, Norman, thank you.

0:35:540:35:58

Right, OK. Back to our mini audience

of voters, both Leave and Remain

0:35:580:36:05

voters. A number of business people.

How do you react to the news that

0:36:050:36:11

there are no individual sectoranal

sis on the car industry and on

0:36:110:36:14

financial services, we don't know

what the impact of Brexit will be on

0:36:140:36:17

those areas?

Well, of course, those

sectors have been doing their own

0:36:170:36:21

work and there is barely a business

in the land that hasn't done come

0:36:210:36:26

sinned of forecasting...

How do you

react to this confirmation from the

0:36:260:36:32

Brexit secretary that the Government

hasn't been doing this work?

It is

0:36:320:36:34

surprising. I don't think many of us

could get away with pretending that

0:36:340:36:39

we have done something and then

having to admit we haven't done

0:36:390:36:41

something. I don't think business

will react kindly. The biggest

0:36:410:36:47

impact on business is impact on

talent. Businesses need to know

0:36:470:36:51

whether they are going to be able to

keep their EU workers here or not.

0:36:510:36:55

How do you react to the fact that

David Davis is saying the Government

0:36:550:36:59

has not under taken an assessment on

a sector by sector basis of the

0:36:590:37:03

impact of Brexit?

Hi, I'm from

Chingford in North London. As a

0:37:030:37:11

businessman, I can tell you for sure

we are affected. All businesses will

0:37:110:37:17

be affected by Brexit.

So it doesn't

matter to you?

It doesn't matter,

0:37:170:37:21

yes.

How are you being affected?

In

many ways and also I think all

0:37:210:37:29

businesses, some who are affected

and there will be very, very badly

0:37:290:37:33

affected.

It is good news for the

gentleman sitting next to you. In

0:37:330:37:36

what way are you being affected as a

small businessman?

It is difficult

0:37:360:37:40

to find the staff now to work. It's

very difficult to, as Naomi said, it

0:37:400:37:46

is very, very difficult in many,

it's...

I want to get more reaction

0:37:460:37:51

from you.

You say it's difficult to

get staff now.

Before we get into

0:37:510:37:56

that. I want to get reaction to the

fact that the Government have

0:37:560:38:01

confirmed they haven't done the

sector by sector assessments.

We

0:38:010:38:05

need to know what is going on.

Particularly if we end up crashing

0:38:050:38:10

out of the EU which will be a

nightmare scenario if we are honest

0:38:100:38:15

with each for the economy.

What

David Davis seemed to be saying is,

0:38:150:38:20

there is so many different options,

you know, there is walking away

0:38:200:38:23

without a deal, there is the various

things that have been discussed,

0:38:230:38:27

there is no point doing a sector by

sector assessment because it

0:38:270:38:32

wouldn't be accurate?

He is being

dishonest. There is a catalogue of

0:38:320:38:38

quotes which Hilary Benn was

referring to which has Mr Davis and

0:38:380:38:45

other people talking about the

assessments. I think they thought

0:38:450:38:48

they wouldn't have to reveal them to

the public and could big them up.

0:38:480:38:53

They have done maybe some analysis

of sector by sector, but not as a

0:38:530:38:57

result of the Brexit on those

sectors, but only on the current

0:38:570:39:00

stages of those sectors in relation

to how Brexit should be negotiated.

0:39:000:39:05

You are a Remainor and you are a

Conservative councillor, are you

0:39:050:39:10

taken aback by that?

Not at all.

It

is all right for the Government not

0:39:100:39:14

to do their homework?

I think thilry

Ben is trying to score political

0:39:140:39:24

points here. -- Hilary Benn.

First

there were 50 assessments and 58 and

0:39:240:39:34

now he is disputing the definition

of an impact assessment. Do you

0:39:340:39:38

think he is being honest in the

presentation of what analysis he has

0:39:380:39:42

done?

I think he is being honest.

This is a fast-moving negotiation.

0:39:420:39:46

One of the most complex ever.

Businesses are doing their own work

0:39:460:39:50

and I'm sure providing information

in and out of government all the

0:39:500:39:52

time. The Government can help use it

to support...

We saw the House

0:39:520:39:57

Builders' Federation say yesterday

we have a housing crisis and unless

0:39:570:40:00

we get certainty for the EU brick

layers and plasterers and plumbers

0:40:000:40:05

we won't be able to build all the

homes we need.

I find it quite,

0:40:050:40:11

almost amusing that we heard from

Liam Fox earlier in this year or

0:40:110:40:20

last year, that these negotiations

would be the simplest and we see

0:40:200:40:24

this from David Davis. As a Labour

Party member, this is not the

0:40:240:40:27

strength and stability we were

promised.

Some messages from people

0:40:270:40:32

watching around the country. David

e-mails, "For crying out loud. Just

0:40:320:40:37

call the whole thing off. This is

too difficult." Sue David Davis lied

0:40:370:40:46

to the EU exit committee." Thomas

tweets this, "I am not sure I'm

0:40:460:40:54

surprised at all that. That the fact

that David Davis is telling a Select

0:40:540:40:58

Committee that the Government hasn't

under taken any sector by sector

0:40:580:41:02

Brexit impact reports. It is

entirely consistent with the

0:41:020:41:07

shambolic trajectory of the

Conservatives."

0:41:070:41:09

You said you had changed your mind.

You were a Remainor. You are very,

0:41:090:41:14

you are looking forward to leaving.

I am.

Anyone else changed their

0:41:140:41:17

mind?

I was a Leaver, but I would be

more for Remain now.

If there was

0:41:170:41:25

another vote?

Yes.

I supported a

campaign for the Remain campaign and

0:41:250:41:30

we have seen the fantastic

opportunities that are opening up

0:41:300:41:33

since we have been negotiating

Brexit and we haven't left yet.

0:41:330:41:36

There are opportunities. I was in...

Do you acknowledge for a lot of

0:41:360:41:41

people costs have gone up?

I was in

Malaysia only a couple of weeks

0:41:410:41:47

ago...

Because of the falling value

of the pound.

We have had imports

0:41:470:41:51

substitution. Look at your shopping

basket and that has not changed in

0:41:510:41:55

any significant way since because...

Based on inflation, not on the

0:41:550:42:02

falling value of the pound.

This the

short-term, in the long-term.

This

0:42:020:42:07

is all about opening us up to the

world so. I went overseas to ma qlas

0:42:070:42:12

where I was talking to people in

calla lump pa. It is easier to do

0:42:120:42:23

business with them because we share

languages and systems.

They are

0:42:230:42:32

investing in Battersea. Guess what?

Sorry your holiday was interrupted.

0:42:320:42:42

Does anybody here want another

referendum to check the will of the

0:42:420:42:46

British people is the same as the

one?

Definitely, yes.

You want

0:42:460:42:53

another one.

Please.

There is no

need for another referendum. It

0:42:530:42:58

should be acknowledged twice British

people were asked what they wanted

0:42:580:43:02

to do with Europe and the first time

they said they were not sure. The

0:43:020:43:06

second time was a hung parliament.

So, I think it's quite clear that

0:43:060:43:11

there is no big kind of decision...

OK. I'm going to stop it there.

0:43:110:43:19

We're not going to re-run the old

arguments. Thank you. Thank you.

0:43:190:43:24

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Your views

0:43:240:43:29

welcome. Keep them coming this.

There are a lot of messages. I'll

0:43:290:43:32

try and read some more before the

end of the programme.

0:43:320:43:38

This morning calls for a new way

of working with young offenders

0:43:390:43:41

to cut levels of reoffending.

0:43:410:43:45

Her Majesty's Inspector

of Probation, Dame Glenys Stacey,

0:43:450:43:47

tells this programme she wants

to see something called the trauma

0:43:470:43:50

informed approach rolled out

across England and Wales.

0:43:500:43:56

That approach means

building a relationship

0:43:560:43:57

with offenders between the ages

of 10 to 18 and working out what has

0:43:570:44:01

led to their offending before asking

them to change their behaviour.

0:44:010:44:05

Sounds like hug-a-hoodie,

you might think.

0:44:050:44:06

Our reporter Dan Clark-Neal

was exclusively invited along

0:44:060:44:09

with Dame Glenys when she went

to see a Youth Offending Team

0:44:090:44:12

in Nottingham who are spearheading

this new approach in action.

0:44:120:44:15

Have a watch of the report

and tell us what you think.

0:44:150:44:21

Nottingham.

0:44:240:44:27

It's here that the county's youth

offending team are trying to help

0:44:270:44:31

young people stop criminal behaviour

for good by working

0:44:310:44:33

with them in a new way.

0:44:330:44:36

Nearly 33,000, 10 to 18-year-olds

were cautioned or sentenced

0:44:380:44:43

for a crime between April 2015

and March 2016 in England and Wales.

0:44:430:44:48

Of these, just over three in ten go

on to reoffend within a year.

0:44:480:44:53

But if we look at just those

released from custody,

0:44:530:44:55

that number goes up to nearly

seven in ten.

0:44:550:45:00

The number of young people caught

breaking the law for the first time

0:45:000:45:05

has dropped dramatically over

the last decade, from over 100,000,

0:45:050:45:07

to just over 18,000.

0:45:070:45:10

But those who are committing crimes

are doing so again and again.

0:45:100:45:18

The Nottingham youth offending team

are using something called

0:45:180:45:20

a trauma informed approach,

meaning the focus is on building

0:45:200:45:23

a trusting relationship

and helping these young people

0:45:230:45:26

with their troubled

backgrounds before asking them

0:45:260:45:28

to change their behaviour.

0:45:280:45:31

The woman who's in charge of keeping

an eye on the services which work

0:45:310:45:35

to help these young people has

brought us here today to find out

0:45:350:45:38

why she thinks this is the best way

to break this cycle.

0:45:380:45:42

It's about taking a step back

and really thinking about this much

0:45:430:45:46

more long-term and sometimes

spending many months actually

0:45:460:45:48

meeting with this young person

to build that relationship before

0:45:480:45:50

you start that more

shaping activity.

0:45:500:45:54

Often these young people

have not had continuous,

0:45:540:45:56

emotional relationships

in their lives and it can make

0:45:560:45:58

a very substantial difference.

0:45:580:46:08

And Connor Sharman is someone

who has felt the benefits

0:46:110:46:13

of this new way of working.

0:46:130:46:15

I was 14, I got caught in my car

selling drugs, on heroin.

0:46:150:46:18

I was in the wrong crowd

and I just tried it.

0:46:180:46:21

Before I knew it, I've got a habit.

0:46:210:46:23

Youth offending teams work to help

young people who are in trouble

0:46:230:46:25

with the law to stop reoffending.

0:46:250:46:27

They supervise ten to 18-year-olds

who have been sentenced by a court,

0:46:270:46:30

or who have come to the attention

of the police because of their

0:46:300:46:33

offending behaviour,

but have not been charged

0:46:330:46:35

and instead, dealt

with out of court.

0:46:350:46:44

Youth offending teams also work

with young people who have

0:46:460:46:48

not committed a crime,

but are at risk of doing so.

0:46:480:46:50

There are 152 of them

in England and Wales.

0:46:500:46:53

Youth offending teams are organised

in different ways in each area,

0:46:530:46:55

but all of them must have staff

from local authority social care

0:46:550:46:58

and education, the police,

the National Probation Service

0:46:580:47:00

and local health services.

0:47:000:47:07

Dame Glenys Stacey is

Chief Inspector of Probation.

0:47:070:47:09

It's her job to report

to government and services

0:47:090:47:11

which work with all offenders,

to prevent reoffending

0:47:110:47:13

and protect the public.

0:47:130:47:14

I'm very keen to know how

you think you have been,

0:47:140:47:17

what is it that works here?

0:47:170:47:18

It's about building that

relationship with them

0:47:180:47:20

and recognising that it's probably

going to be a gradual process.

0:47:200:47:30

A lot of our young people haven't

ever had their achievements

0:47:310:47:33

celebrated and a lot of the time,

their behaviour

0:47:330:47:36

is attention seeking.

0:47:360:47:36

I've had quite a lot of young people

that can't actually accept praise

0:47:360:47:40

and part of the work has been

allowing them to actually accept

0:47:400:47:42

compliments and it's OK to be

proud of yourself.

0:47:420:47:47

So a very small number of young

people are sentenced to a spell

0:47:470:47:50

in a youth offenders' institution,

basically a prison for young people.

0:47:500:47:55

When they do come out, the intensive

work starts then really.

0:47:550:47:57

So they're monitored quite closely.

0:47:570:47:58

They'll have a timetable

where they have a whole week's worth

0:47:580:48:01

of programmes which they have

to work towards.

0:48:010:48:03

Obviously, if they're not wanting

to, then we had to chase them

0:48:030:48:06

and pick them up and try

and make sure.

0:48:060:48:08

So they are seen very regularly

throughout the weeks

0:48:080:48:10

for the first couple of months.

0:48:100:48:20

We are very honest with young people

about what information

0:48:230:48:25

we may have to share.

0:48:250:48:26

So if a young person came to us

for say, a shop theft,

0:48:260:48:30

but then disclosed they carry knives

in the community, our work with them

0:48:300:48:33

may change slightly because we have

to look at kind of risk as well.

0:48:330:48:36

Obviously, if they are in school,

there's the risks there,

0:48:360:48:38

so the staff are made aware of that.

0:48:380:48:40

So it sounds like a really joined-up

approach around this individual.

0:48:400:48:47

Zoe's been working for the past

decade as part of the Nottingham

0:48:530:48:55

youth offending team and she's

brought us along to meet

0:48:550:48:58

Connor Sharman, who she first

met four years ago.

0:48:580:49:00

Zoe, you don't work

with Connor any more, do you?

0:49:000:49:10

No, my case with Connor closed

in January of this year

0:49:110:49:14

following his order being revoked

in court on the grounds

0:49:140:49:16

of good progress.

0:49:160:49:17

We knew there was a lot of good

in Connor that we wanted to unearth

0:49:170:49:21

and everybody stuck at it and he's

proved us all right.

0:49:210:49:24

Here we are, four years,

almost four years since he first

0:49:240:49:26

came to us and he's working

full-time and drug-free.

0:49:260:49:28

Connor, tell me about how

you came into contact

0:49:280:49:30

with Zoe in the first place.

0:49:300:49:35

I got put on the youth offending

team, yeah, by the court.

0:49:350:49:38

What was the lowest point

for you in that four-year period?

0:49:380:49:40

Probably being on heroin.

0:49:400:49:44

But you are off that

now, aren't you?

0:49:440:49:49

Oh yeah, been off it ages.

0:49:490:49:50

How long have you been working here?

0:49:500:49:52

I think it is about six and a half

months, seven months.

0:49:520:49:55

I love it.

0:49:550:49:57

I will stay with it now forever.

0:49:570:49:59

Yeah?

As long as he wants me anyway.

0:49:590:50:00

Job for life?

Yeah.

0:50:000:50:06

How important was she for you over

that four-year period?

0:50:060:50:09

She's been really good

and she stayed with me

0:50:090:50:11

when she didn't have to, actually.

0:50:110:50:12

She didn't have to do,

yeah, she stayed with me.

0:50:120:50:15

I caught up with Dame Glenys before

she left to ask her about some

0:50:150:50:18

of the things she'd heard

from the team.

0:50:180:50:20

Is there a danger that we are making

excuses for offenders to go

0:50:200:50:23

on and commit crime,

because they've had trauma

0:50:230:50:25

in their childhood that makes it OK?

0:50:250:50:32

There's no excuse here,

no excuse at all.

0:50:320:50:33

I do ask you to think

about what it is like to be a child

0:50:330:50:37

that has never been loved and often

that's the very child

0:50:370:50:40

who struggles at school,

who gets behind with schoolwork.

0:50:400:50:42

Who was then bullied

and then turns to a gang

0:50:420:50:44

for some sense of belonging.

0:50:440:50:45

We are not talking about

excusing

crime here,

0:50:450:50:51

we are talking about

finding the best ways

0:50:510:50:53

to turn these young

people away from crime.

0:50:530:50:55

Almost seven in ten will reoffend

once they are released from custody,

0:50:550:50:58

what is the issue there,

why is that happening?

0:50:580:51:00

Well, most young people who offend,

thankfully don't get into custody.

0:51:000:51:03

There's a lot of work done very

early on as the person starts

0:51:030:51:06

showing some behaviours that might

be worrisome, to divert

0:51:060:51:08

them from court.

0:51:080:51:09

If a child or young person

is getting to the stage

0:51:090:51:13

where they are imprisoned,

0:51:130:51:17

they are pretty unusual.

0:51:170:51:22

If that individual is left

with little help,

0:51:220:51:26

no money to feed themselves

0:51:260:51:27

and nothing to guarantee

them a roof over their heads,

0:51:270:51:30

they are very, very

likely to reoffend.

0:51:300:51:35

Over the four years that Zoe worked

with Connor to help him stop taking

0:51:350:51:39

and selling drugs and carrying

a knife,

0:51:390:51:43

he lost his grandmother

0:51:430:51:46

and his girlfriend Rae broke her

back in a motorbike accident.

0:51:460:51:51

Do you remember the very first

time that you met me?

0:51:510:51:56

Not fully, I do kind of remember,

when I was at the centre.

0:51:560:52:00

I can remember in my head,

0:52:000:52:10

trying to work out

0:52:110:52:14

how to manage that conversation

with you

0:52:140:52:16

because you were under

the influence of something.

0:52:160:52:18

Why do you think you ended up

in that place in the first

0:52:180:52:21

instance, why do you think

you started taking drugs?

0:52:210:52:23

Just in with the wrong crowd

at the time and then...

0:52:230:52:25

But what led to that,

what led to you being

0:52:250:52:28

in with the wrong crowd?

0:52:280:52:29

I didn't really have

any friends my age.

0:52:290:52:31

Give me some significant events that

happened over the course

0:52:310:52:33

of my involvement with you.

0:52:330:52:35

Getting caught with a knife and four

bags of weed and another knife.

0:52:350:52:38

My grandma dying, taking heroin.

0:52:380:52:39

Obviously Rae had that horrific

motorbike accident and you gave up

0:52:390:52:44

everything to care for her as well.

0:52:440:52:48

When do you think that something

clicked and you thought,

0:52:480:52:53

"That's it, I've had enough,

0:52:530:52:57

I'm definitely not

going back there now"?

0:52:570:52:59

Probably after Rae's crash.

0:52:590:53:00

I thought, I'm never going to go

back there again now.

0:53:000:53:03

I don't know, something

just clicked in my head

0:53:030:53:06

that's not a life to live

really, is it?

0:53:060:53:08

And I have been a bit of a bad lad

and a bit careless sometimes,

0:53:080:53:12

but I'm really appreciative

for everything you've done for me.

0:53:120:53:15

I'll definitely stay

in contact with you.

0:53:150:53:17

I hope you do.

0:53:170:53:20

I'm really proud, to see where

you were and where you are now,

0:53:200:53:23

I'm really proud of your

commitment and determination.

0:53:230:53:25

Thank you very much.

0:53:250:53:31

If you work in youth offending,

0:53:310:53:32

or you've been a victim of a crime

by a youth offender,

0:53:320:53:35

keen to hear your views on this.

0:53:350:53:37

Do get in touch in

all the usual ways.

0:53:370:53:46

This e-mail is really interesting,

but last, I spent all my teenage

0:53:460:53:49

years in detention, or still common

young offenders institution. Five

0:53:490:53:54

years in prison after a shoot by cop

attempt. Then my gender dysphoria

0:53:540:54:00

was uncovered and I was offered

help. I had tried to take my own

0:54:000:54:05

life from the age of 14. None of

this was investigated. I turned my

0:54:050:54:10

life around and did not offend

again, this was 40 years ago. -- 14.

0:54:100:54:15

Looking at early intervention makes

sense. And another tweet, everyone,

0:54:190:54:24

young and old needs a purpose.

0:54:240:54:32

Next this morning, it was a story

that rocked the British

0:54:320:54:35

establishment and ultimately bought

down the government.

0:54:350:54:37

# She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah...

0:54:370:54:39

It was the biggest scandal

of the 1960s, and Christine Keeler

0:54:390:54:42

was the teenager at its centre,

who became one of the most

0:54:420:54:44

recognisable faces of the time.

0:54:440:54:49

John Profumo was

the Minister for War.

0:54:490:54:51

He and Christine Keeler

had a brief affair.

0:54:510:54:52

When challenged, he lied about it

to the House of Commons

0:54:520:54:55

and was forced to resign.

0:54:550:54:58

It didn't help that Yevgeny Ivanov,

a Russian spy,

0:54:580:55:01

had also been seeing

Christine Keeler,

0:55:010:55:02

leading to claims

of a security risk.

0:55:020:55:10

Harold Macmillan's government

was left reeling,

0:55:100:55:12

but Christine always

claimed she was a victim.

0:55:120:55:14

I wish that at that time I had been

older, so that I would have been

0:55:140:55:18

able to have answered or spoke

up for myself.

0:55:180:55:20

And Stephen.

0:55:200:55:21

But I was only a young girl.

0:55:210:55:25

Stephen was Stephen Ward,

0:55:250:55:29

an amateur artist and society

osteopath

0:55:290:55:32

with a string of celebrity

clients

0:55:320:55:34

and an attraction

to beautiful women.

0:55:340:55:39

He introduced Christine Keeler

to Profumo,

0:55:390:55:43

and later took his own life

0:55:430:55:45

when charged with living

off immoral earnings.

0:55:450:55:47

She always denied

being a prostitute.

0:55:470:55:48

She left school at 15.

0:55:480:55:49

Her childhood home had been a pair

of converted railway carriages.

0:55:490:55:52

She had a child at 17

who died days later,

0:55:520:55:54

and then lived with Peter Rackman,

a notorious slum landlord.

0:55:540:55:57

Later a boyfriend was charged

with assaulting her,

0:55:570:55:59

and Christine Keeler lied in court.

0:55:590:56:07

She was jailed for perjury.

0:56:070:56:08

In the years that followed,

she tried to reinvent herself.

0:56:080:56:10

She wrote a column for

the men's magazine Men Only.

0:56:100:56:20

No, I don't agree with prostitution.

By the bins.

0:56:220:56:24

She lives here.

She owns the shop around the corner.

0:56:240:56:27

And there were three books

one filmed as Scandal.

0:56:270:56:29

I never felt better.

0:56:290:56:30

I think that's just some press said

that, but I never felt better.

0:56:300:56:33

Maybe they were hoping

I was, but not at all,

0:56:330:56:35

I haven't felt bitter.

0:56:350:56:38

I'm pleased that the truth can come

out now, so that perhaps to stop

0:56:380:56:41

all sorts of dreadful stories that

were going to be made up.

0:56:410:56:48

But she was often broke,

and two marriages ended in divorce.

0:56:480:56:51

She was 75 when she died.

0:56:510:56:56

Her son told the BBC

she was always a fighter,

0:56:560:56:58

but sadly lost the final fight

against a terrible lung disease.

0:56:580:57:08

Christine Keeler never really

recovered from the scandal.

0:57:120:57:14

When her son announced her death

he said she'd earned

0:57:140:57:16

her place in history

"but at a huge personal price."

0:57:160:57:19

Let's find out more about her now

by talking to Sandra Howard.

0:57:190:57:22

She was a model in London

and New York in the 60s,

0:57:220:57:29

later writing a novel called

Tell the Girl,

0:57:290:57:31

drawing on her experiences.

0:57:310:57:36

Many of our audience will be

learning about Christine Keeler now,

0:57:360:57:40

she was young, she was 19, still a

teenager. She thought about this

0:57:400:57:45

huge personal price, her son did, is

that there are enough.

I think it

0:57:450:57:50

is, when you are that age, and you

have people in high places, powerful

0:57:500:57:56

positions, you get swept up in it,

glamorous, attractive, people are

0:57:560:58:01

influencing you. You can sort of

understand, really, where she got

0:58:010:58:08

too, where she was.

She had said, if

she had been older, perhaps she

0:58:080:58:12

would have been able to deal with it

a little bit better, what was it

0:58:120:58:16

like, in then, in those circles?

Well, it was a creative time, the

0:58:160:58:24

1960s, an explosion of new talent.

And new freedoms. The pill, all

0:58:240:58:30

sorts of new freedoms. There was a

lot going on. Women were treated

0:58:300:58:36

differently... They were treated as

playthings. You can take people to

0:58:360:58:44

court, you can do a lot more, you

are more protected as a woman. But

0:58:440:58:49

back then, you were on your own and

had to look after yourself.

And if

0:58:490:58:54

you could not, you are taken

advantage of.

Yes, by those who did

0:58:540:59:01

not have principles, but if you were

young, it was easy to see how it

0:59:010:59:05

happened. Very sad.

She did not

seem... She said there... She was

0:59:050:59:11

not bitter about it, was she, but it

did define her life, she could never

0:59:110:59:16

escape it.

So much pub is a too.

Somebody lied in Parliament. -- so

0:59:160:59:22

much publicity. He did a huge amount

for charity for the rest of his life

0:59:220:59:29

but he had made a big mistake, he

had to pay the price... That

0:59:290:59:32

heightened the interest in the case

and in Christine Keeler, the people

0:59:320:59:38

she had had her relationship with,

they were power. White if that

0:59:380:59:44

scandal happened now, would it be

treated differently?

0:59:440:59:53

-- if that scandal

happened now, would it be

0:59:530:59:56

treated differently?

0:59:560:59:57

A lie in Parliament would still be a

huge scandal, but I think... I think

0:59:571:00:05

it would still get publicity.

It is

the line, it is the line that is the

1:00:051:00:10

thing...

And a suicide, all sorts of

things that caused it to become a

1:00:101:00:20

great sort of drama and scandal, it

was a scandal, and it was a time

1:00:201:00:24

when there was more stigma, more

scandals, as well, even.

We are used

1:00:241:00:32

to scandals now(!) potentially

immune to them.

Sadly, yes.

Thank

1:00:321:00:38

you very much for joining us.

1:00:381:00:40

We will bring you the latest news

and sport in a moment, before that,

1:00:431:00:47

the weather forecast.

1:00:471:00:48

Bottom There is a lot going on with

the weather. For the next 24 hours,

1:00:541:00:58

it is all about Storm Caroline, but

it will turn much colder with the

1:00:581:01:03

risk of some snow and also ice. For

the rest of today, we will continue

1:01:031:01:07

to see some rain moving its way

through Northern Ireland and into

1:01:071:01:09

the west of Scotland in particular.

Later on, north Wention, Wales and

1:01:091:01:13

the south-west. Towards the eastern

areas, it is likely to stay dry. A

1:01:131:01:17

few bright spells here and there.

Maximum temperatures ten or 12

1:01:171:01:21

Celsius. The winds picking up all

the while. Gales expected around the

1:01:211:01:25

Irish Sea coasts and Western

Scotland. Severe gales by the end of

1:01:251:01:28

the night. Rain continuing to spread

its way further south and eastward

1:01:281:01:32

throughout the United Kingdom. But

it's Thursday when Storm Caroline

1:01:321:01:35

which is situated to the north will

give gusts. Of of wind up to 80mph

1:01:351:01:40

in northern parts of Scotland.

That's likely to cause damage and

1:01:401:01:44

destruction. Clearer skies for many

of us, but with it showers and

1:01:441:01:49

turning colder with the risk of snow

in Scotland, Northern Ireland,

1:01:491:01:53

north-west England and North Wales.

There is a lot going on.

1:01:531:01:57

Hello.

1:01:591:02:07

It's Wednesday, it's 10.02am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:02:071:02:08

Our top story today -

a man is due to appear in court over

1:02:081:02:12

an alleged plot to kill

the Prime Minister, Theresa May.

1:02:121:02:14

We'll get the latest from court.

1:02:141:02:16

Will addressing the causes

of what drives young people

1:02:161:02:18

to commit crimes help cut

youth offending rates?

1:02:181:02:20

The Chief Inspector

of Probation tells us why she's

1:02:201:02:22

in favour of this approach.

1:02:221:02:23

I do ask you to think

about what it's like to be a child

1:02:231:02:26

that has never been loved.

1:02:261:02:28

And often that's the very child that

struggles at school,

1:02:281:02:31

who gets behind with schoolwork,

who is then bullied and then

1:02:311:02:34

turns to a gang for some

sense of belonging.

1:02:341:02:44

We will talk to people who have been

through the programme and how it has

1:02:441:02:48

helped turn their life around. If

you have been a victim of crime by a

1:02:481:02:53

youth offender or you were an

offender in your youth, let me know

1:02:531:02:57

your views on this approach.

1:02:571:03:03

Russia won't be competing at next

year's Winter Olympics

1:03:031:03:05

in South Korea although some

of its athletes can

1:03:051:03:07

under the Olympic flag.

1:03:071:03:10

We will get reaction from British

athletes who are celebrating the

1:03:101:03:13

news.

1:03:131:03:15

Good morning.

1:03:151:03:16

Here's Ben Brown in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news.

1:03:161:03:19

A man is expected to appear in court

shortly over an alleged plot

1:03:191:03:23

to kill the Prime Minister,

Theresa May.

1:03:231:03:25

The BBC understands

Naa'imur Zakariyah Rahman,

1:03:251:03:27

20, from north London,

is accused of planning to bomb

1:03:271:03:37

the Prime Minister with a knife.

1:03:391:03:40

He is due to appear

at Westminster Magistrates'

1:03:401:03:42

Court, in central London.

1:03:421:03:43

A second man will be charged

with a terrorism offence.

1:03:431:03:48

The Brexit Secretary, David Davis,

has admitted for the first time

1:03:481:03:51

that the Government has not carried

out any formal assessments

1:03:511:03:53

of the impact of leaving the EU

on sectors of the UK economy.

1:03:531:03:56

The admission came in the last half

hour, during questioning

1:03:561:03:59

by the committee of MPs looking

at the UK's exit from the EU.

1:03:591:04:03

So the Government hasn't undertaken

any impact assessments

1:04:031:04:07

on implications of leaving the EU

for different sectors

1:04:071:04:09

of the British economy.

1:04:091:04:12

So there isn't one, for example,

on the automotive sector?

1:04:121:04:16

On the?

1:04:161:04:17

Automotive sector.

1:04:171:04:18

No, not that I'm aware of, no.

1:04:181:04:20

Is there one on aerospace?

1:04:201:04:21

Not that I'm aware of.

1:04:211:04:22

No.

1:04:221:04:23

One on financial services?

1:04:231:04:24

I think the answer is going

to be no to all of them.

1:04:241:04:27

No to all of them?

1:04:271:04:28

Right.

1:04:281:04:30

Norman Smith has been explaining why

the Government had not conducted

1:04:301:04:34

these assessments?

His argument

seems to be they have got so much to

1:04:341:04:38

do with Brexit, it will be a waste

of their resources to start

1:04:381:04:42

compiling these reports and secondly

what they are trying to do is get

1:04:421:04:45

some huge over arching trade deal so

they don't want to get bogged down

1:04:451:04:49

in individual areas. However, I

guarantee you there will be plenty

1:04:491:04:54

of Brexit critics who will say this

just goes to show the Government

1:04:541:04:58

hasn't got a clue of what it is

doing.

1:04:581:05:07

So I suspect there will be a right

old row about this.

1:05:071:05:10

Norman Smith there.

1:05:101:05:12

The White House says President Trump

is to break with decades of American

1:05:121:05:15

policy in the Middle East

and recognise Jerusalem

1:05:151:05:17

as the capital of Israel.

1:05:171:05:18

He's also due to begin the process

of moving the US embassy

1:05:181:05:21

to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv,

though that may take several years.

1:05:211:05:24

Arab leaders have warned it would be

"a flagrant provocation to Muslims".

1:05:241:05:29

The family of an 81-year-old woman

has received a £45,000 pay-out

1:05:311:05:34

after she was kept alive

against her will.

1:05:341:05:36

Brenda Grant made a living

will stating she feared degradation

1:05:361:05:41

and indignity more than death

after seeing her mum lose

1:05:411:05:43

independence through dementia.

1:05:431:05:49

But the George Eliot hospital,

in Nuneaton, Warwickshire,

1:05:491:05:54

misplaced the document

and she was artificially

1:05:541:05:56

fed for 22 months.

1:05:561:06:05

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am.

1:06:051:06:09

Thank you for your comments. Laura

says, "I have been a youth offending

1:06:091:06:14

officer previously. I work in

probation. In my view the pull of

1:06:141:06:19

gangs and what they appear to offer

people is often too strong to

1:06:191:06:23

compete with. They offer young

people money, a sense of power, a

1:06:231:06:27

sense of independence and also a

sense of belonging and identity."

1:06:271:06:32

Another viewer says, "I spent most

of my work working with young

1:06:321:06:40

offenders. Caused by many

circumstances in their young lives

1:06:401:06:43

and staying with them right through

until adulthood. If you don't value

1:06:431:06:47

yourself and if you don't feel

valued consequences of what you do

1:06:471:06:52

are not important." Thank you for

those.

1:06:521:06:54

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

1:06:541:06:57

use the hashtag Victoria Live

and if you text, you will be charged

1:06:571:07:00

at the standard network rate.

1:07:001:07:01

Here's some sport now with Hugh.

1:07:011:07:03

England are facing a near impossible

job to retain the Ashes after

1:07:031:07:06

another defeat put them 2-0 with

three to play in the series. It took

1:07:061:07:11

about an hour and 45 minutes for

England's six remaining batsmen to

1:07:111:07:15

go down in Adelaide. Chris Woakes

was out with a second ball of the

1:07:151:07:18

day before captain Joe Root followed

without adding to his overnight

1:07:181:07:22

score. The wickets kept tumbling as

well. Jonny Bairstow the last man to

1:07:221:07:28

go. England all out for 233. The

Australians win the second Test in

1:07:281:07:34

Adelaide by 120 runs.

The way we went about the second

1:07:341:07:40

innings has proved to everyone

really that we're still massively in

1:07:401:07:43

this series. I think it's as simple

as that. We've shown that throughout

1:07:431:07:49

the two games with periods that we

can outperform Australia, but just

1:07:491:07:54

not for five days and that's going

to be our challenge really. If we

1:07:541:07:58

get that right, and we can perform

to our ability for longer periods of

1:07:581:08:03

time then we will win games. Simple

as that.

1:08:031:08:06

This morning coming to the game I

thought, you know, if we get one or

1:08:061:08:11

two wickets before the new ball only

18 overs, 180 runs was a lot of

1:08:111:08:16

runs. It was pleasing that Josh was

able to come out and do what he did

1:08:161:08:23

this morning. I thought his leng was

exceptional and to get the wicket of

1:08:231:08:27

Root really put us in a good

position and you know I can breathe

1:08:271:08:33

easily.

Australia breathing very

easy. They have made one change to

1:08:331:08:38

their squad for the Perth Test which

starts next. England will look at

1:08:381:08:46

their options, but the former

opening batsman Jeffrey boycott says

1:08:461:08:49

they have no chance of getting back

into the series.

We have been beaten

1:08:491:08:54

comfortably in the end. Our hopes

are raised every now and again. We

1:08:541:08:58

had two moments in Brisbane when we

could have grabbed the initiative,

1:08:581:09:01

but we weren't good enough to do it.

We have had a moment here. We have

1:09:011:09:04

been up a bit and maybe, but when it

comes to the tough moments, they're

1:09:041:09:09

better than us.

There could be tough moments ahead

1:09:091:09:14

for Chelsea. In the knock-out phases

of the Champions League. They

1:09:141:09:18

finished second in their groupment

they were held to a 1-1 draw by

1:09:181:09:24

Atletico Madrid at Stamford Bridge

last night and they could face one

1:09:241:09:28

of three teems teams in the last 16,

two of those are Barcelona and Paris

1:09:281:09:37

St Germain. Manchester United

secured top spot in their group.

1:09:371:09:41

They came from behind to beat spar

particular Moscow. They trailed at

1:09:411:09:48

the break before they pulled one

back and Marcus Rashford hit the

1:09:481:09:51

winner a minute later.

Celtic will be going into the Europa

1:09:511:09:57

League, despite a 1-0 home defeat

last night. The manager said the

1:09:571:10:02

club was realistic over its European

chances, constantly working to

1:10:021:10:06

bridge the gap to Europe's biggest

clubs.

1:10:061:10:11

That's all the sport for now, we

will have more later on.

1:10:111:10:14

Cheers.

1:10:141:10:17

Russia has reacted angrily

to the announcement by

1:10:171:10:20

the International Olympic Committee

that their athletes will be banned

1:10:201:10:25

from the Winter Olympics next year.

1:10:251:10:26

Although Russian athletes who can

prove they are clean would be

1:10:261:10:29

allowed to compete in South Korea

under a neutral flag.

1:10:291:10:31

It follows an investigation

into allegations of state-sponsored

1:10:311:10:34

doping at the 2014 Games hosted

by Russia in Sochi.

1:10:341:10:38

Russian athletes should be banned

from all competitions including next

1:10:431:10:45

year's Olympic Games

until the country cleans

1:10:451:10:47

up its act on drugs,

according to a major report

1:10:471:10:49

on doping in athletics.

1:10:491:10:50

We have found cover-ups,

we have found destruction of samples

1:10:501:10:53

in the laboratories.

1:10:531:10:54

We've found payments of money

in order to conceal doping tests.

1:10:541:10:59

I've asked the Russian athletics

Federation to answer those

1:10:591:11:02

allegations by the end of this week.

1:11:021:11:05

We will look at a range of options,

which includes sanctions.

1:11:051:11:08

One of those sanctions could be

the suspension of Russia?

1:11:081:11:11

It could be the

suspension of Russia.

1:11:111:11:18

I fully back the calls to really say

to them, you're not welcome.

1:11:181:11:21

You're not welcome in sport

until you put your house in order,

1:11:211:11:24

until you make some

real, fundamental changes.

1:11:241:11:26

As a clean athlete, you do start

to wonder how many medals you should

1:11:261:11:29

have been awarded and all the things

you've missed out on.

1:11:291:11:32

Everybody seemed to have been

involved, from the athletes

1:11:321:11:34

themselves seemingly up

to a government level.

1:11:341:11:36

It's a very shocking day

for all of us in the sport.

1:11:361:11:39

We can speak now to the swimmer,

Sharron Davies, who won silver medal

1:11:391:11:44

at the 1980 Olympics in Moscow.

1:11:441:11:51

Hopefully we will talk to swimmer

Mark Foster.

1:11:511:11:57

And David Walsh from

the Sunday Times has investigated

1:11:571:11:59

doping and spent time working

with original whistle-blower,

1:11:591:12:01

Vitaliy Stepanov.

1:12:011:12:11

Your reaction Sharron Davis?

Very

pleased. I was disappointed for Rio.

1:12:111:12:17

They landed it with the

associations. Swimming was one of

1:12:171:12:21

those associations that didn't

decide to take the Russians out and

1:12:211:12:24

many of our British swimmers lost

medals to Russians that have twice

1:12:241:12:28

been positive on drugs test.

David

Walsh,

I would echo Sharron's

1:12:281:12:36

comments. I am pleased that Russia

are out. It delivers a message to

1:12:361:12:40

Russia that President Putin never

expected to get. It's a huge

1:12:401:12:44

embarrassment for Russia. It's a

real difficulty with his kind of

1:12:441:12:48

home constituency who will feel

their boss has not delivered on

1:12:481:12:51

this. I think it casts a cloud over

the Fifa World Cup next year because

1:12:511:12:59

the head of that World Cup has got a

ban. He is a former Sports Minister

1:12:591:13:06

in Russia. He is the current Deputy

Prime Minister and he has got a

1:13:061:13:11

lifetime ban from the Olympic

movement because they know that he

1:13:111:13:13

was up to his neck in this.

Let me

ask you this on the World Cup

1:13:131:13:17

question, how do we know that

competition will be free from

1:13:171:13:20

doping?

Well, we don't is the honest

answer, but what happened in Sochi

1:13:201:13:28

three years ago, when Russia was

hosting the Winter Olympics was

1:13:281:13:32

doping on a scale and a level of

organisation and a level of cynicism

1:13:321:13:37

that really we hadn't seen before.

This was worse than east Germany

1:13:371:13:42

because they took the cheating into

the actual Olympic anti-doping

1:13:421:13:47

laboratory in Sochi. They secreted

samples out of that laboratory into

1:13:471:13:54

an adjoining room, substituted the

urine in the samples given by the

1:13:541:14:00

victorious athletes, put in clean

urine and completely corrupted an

1:14:001:14:06

entire Olympic Games. I mean Russia

finished top of the medal table at

1:14:061:14:10

Sochi and now they're not allowed to

compete in Korea in the following

1:14:101:14:16

Winter Olympics and they become the

first country in the history of the

1:14:161:14:20

Olympic movement to be banned from

an Olympic Games.

Which is, as you

1:14:201:14:24

say, quite right. You welcome the

news as does Sharron. Mark Foster.

1:14:241:14:29

You have so many titles. You don't

have an Olympic medal. Do you think

1:14:291:14:33

you lost out because of cheats?

I'll

never know, I suppose. I was around

1:14:331:14:41

in the late 80s when it was right

for east Germany. I suppose naively

1:14:411:14:46

I always thought it was a level

playing field and everyone I was up

1:14:461:14:49

against was doing the same as me and

that was being clean. In the 2000s,

1:14:491:14:54

they are doing it now and getting

away with it and they were getting

1:14:541:14:59

away with it, what were they doing

then? I'm just pleased for everybody

1:14:591:15:05

now a days that this has come up.

This has happened and the IOC have

1:15:051:15:10

taken a stand. It's something that

needs to be done because there are

1:15:101:15:15

athletes that do do it cleanly and

should it should be a clean level

1:15:151:15:19

playing field. It shouldn't be with

about who can cheat and who can take

1:15:191:15:24

advantage of everybody else.

David

Walsh said it was worse than what

1:15:241:15:29

east Germany were doing. Do you

think you lost out on medals because

1:15:291:15:33

you were competing at the time a

number of East Germans were?

All of

1:15:331:15:39

my silver and bronze medals were

behind East Germans. Yes,

1:15:391:15:43

absolutely. My main Olympic one was

a silver behind one East German and

1:15:431:15:48

we have the rlts of what she was

taking and when she was taking it

1:15:481:15:52

and she admitted it herself and the

IOC have done nothing about that

1:15:521:15:55

period whatsoever. It is

frustrating. They often really shirk

1:15:551:15:59

their responsibility with regards to

drugs in sport and I think now they

1:15:591:16:02

are being forced to do what they

should have been doing for a long

1:16:021:16:05

time. You have to understand also

there are two groups of people here

1:16:051:16:09

that the IOC should be looking

after, clean athletes who are trying

1:16:091:16:11

to compete on a level playing field,

but the other athletes are the

1:16:111:16:15

withins coerced into taking things

and we don't know what long-term

1:16:151:16:19

side-effects there are. The East

German athletes had nasty drugs

1:16:191:16:24

which affected their lives forever.

Mark, do you accept there will

1:16:241:16:28

always be cheats? Even with a

deterrent like this from the IOC,

1:16:281:16:33

there will be somebody who thinks

the stakes are so high, it is worth

1:16:331:16:36

cheating? worth cheating?

I think

that you are right, I don't want to

1:16:361:16:47

drag it up, I am a great love of

football, when I watch them falling

1:16:471:16:51

over, trying to gain advantage

through getting penalties, trying to

1:16:511:16:54

get players sent off through

cheating, feigning injury, it

1:16:541:16:59

irritates me, cheating... Cheating

is not OK, it is not about getting

1:16:591:17:02

away with what you can get away

with. Yeah, money, power, politics,

1:17:021:17:09

of course, politics in sport should

be put together... The athletes

1:17:091:17:13

themselves, I think, try to do it to

the best of their ability and the

1:17:131:17:17

best person wins. You are right, if

there is going to be money,

1:17:171:17:22

financials, which they're generally

is, then... And I do not always

1:17:221:17:28

blamed those people in those teams

who say, if you want to be part of

1:17:281:17:33

this team, you have got to do this.

I blame them, but I do not blame

1:17:331:17:38

them, because they are naively

thinking, this is what the rest of

1:17:381:17:41

the world is doing, this is what

they are told by their country, so

1:17:411:17:44

they will get involved. Some of the

Chinese athletes, they were told, if

1:17:441:17:49

you want to be on the national team,

you will be looked after, you will

1:17:491:17:53

get a nice flat, your family will be

looked after, why would they not do

1:17:531:17:56

what is offered to them. This is the

start of it. We start with this,

1:17:561:18:03

banning Federation, huge move,

hopefully the message will filter

1:18:031:18:05

down that cheating is not

acceptable.

He spent time with the

1:18:051:18:14

original whistle-blower, Vitali

Stepanov, have you spoken with him,

1:18:141:18:16

what does he think of this news?

We

were in contact last night, the

1:18:161:18:22

Tully is very pleased, but there is

a couple of points that should be

1:18:221:18:26

made here, because this morning

around the world, people are

1:18:261:18:32

feeling, the Russians are terrible,

so cynical, so corrupt, it is great

1:18:321:18:37

that they have been banned by the

end to lash -- banned by the

1:18:371:18:45

International Olympic Committee.

People should remember that the

1:18:451:18:48

whistle-blower who first came out

and risk his life to expose this was

1:18:481:18:56

a Russian, and they had to flee

Russia, they had to leave, they have

1:18:561:19:02

never seen their family members,

they are living in a strange country

1:19:021:19:05

for them. Vitaly Stepanov And Yuliya

Stepanova. What Russia did when they

1:19:051:19:11

were exposed as a cheating country

was to say, what we are doing is

1:19:111:19:16

basically what everyone else is

doing. And we were shown that our

1:19:161:19:24

own athletes, British athletes,

American athletes, German athletes,

1:19:241:19:30

were using therapeutic use

exemptions in very suspicious

1:19:301:19:32

circumstances. And we were not

whiter than white, I would liken it

1:19:321:19:38

to... In some countries you have a

straightforward corruption, in

1:19:381:19:42

others, you have what I would call

legal corruption, very unethical

1:19:421:19:47

behaviour, that is considered legal.

I don't want to go over the

1:19:471:19:54

therapeutic usage exemptions but you

know that they would all say they

1:19:541:19:56

were playing by the rules, and until

the rules change... Anyway, I am

1:19:561:20:01

going to pause that there are, thank

you, David, Mark.

1:20:011:20:11

Sharon, Serena Williams

is planning on entering

1:20:111:20:14

the Australian Open in January,

four months after giving birth.

1:20:141:20:17

The great thing about swimming, it

is a fantastic thing to do, and

1:20:171:20:21

exercise to do while you are

pregnant full. As a supreme athlete,

1:20:211:20:29

I cannot imagine she would not want

to get back into shape. But when you

1:20:291:20:33

become a mother, priorities change a

little bit, so, it becomes a

1:20:331:20:38

different thing. I have no doubt she

will still be an incredible champion

1:20:381:20:43

but maybe her mind will be somewhere

else.

Thank you very much. Thank you

1:20:431:20:47

very much for joining us.

1:20:471:20:54

Still to come, how worried

are you about debt over xmas?

1:20:541:20:56

Our Personal Finance Correspondent

is here to discuss new research that

1:20:561:20:59

says money worries are on the rise.

1:20:591:21:03

This morning we've been hearing

calls for a new way of working

1:21:031:21:06

with young offenders to cut

levels of reoffending.

1:21:061:21:08

Her Majesty's Inspector

of Probation, Dame Glenys Stacey,

1:21:081:21:10

tells this programme she wants

to see something called the trauma

1:21:101:21:13

infformed approach rolled out

across England and Wales.

1:21:131:21:15

In essence that approach means

building a relationship

1:21:151:21:16

with offenders between the ages

of 10 to 18 and working out what has

1:21:161:21:20

led to their offending before asking

them to change their behaviour.

1:21:201:21:28

Sounds like "hug-a-hoodie"

you might think.

1:21:281:21:29

Our reporter Dan Clark-Neal

was exclusively invited along

1:21:291:21:31

with Dame Glenys when she went

to see a Youth Offending Team

1:21:311:21:34

in Nottingham who are spearheading

this new approach in action,

1:21:341:21:37

we bought you his full film earlier.

1:21:371:21:39

Here's a short extract.

1:21:391:21:45

Zoe's been working for the past

decade as part of the Nottingham

1:22:131:22:16

youth offending team and she's

brought us along to meet

1:22:161:22:18

Connor Sharman, who she first

met four years ago.

1:22:181:22:20

Zoe, you don't work

with Connor any more, do you?

1:22:201:22:22

No, my case with Connor closed

in January of this year

1:22:221:22:25

following his order being revoked

in court on the grounds

1:22:251:22:27

of good progress.

1:22:271:22:29

We knew there was a lot of good

in Connor that we wanted to unearth

1:22:291:22:32

and everybody stuck at it and he's

proved us all right.

1:22:321:22:35

Here we are, four years,

almost four years since he first

1:22:351:22:37

came to us and he's working

full-time and drug-free.

1:22:371:22:40

Connor, tell me about how

you came into contact

1:22:401:22:42

with Zoe in the first place.

1:22:421:22:43

I got put on the youth offending

team, yeah, by the court.

1:22:431:22:46

What was the lowest point

for you in that four-year period?

1:22:461:22:49

Probably being on heroin.

1:22:491:22:50

But you are off that

now, aren't you?

1:22:501:22:52

Oh yeah, been off it ages.

1:22:521:22:53

How long have you been working here?

1:22:531:22:56

I think it is about six and a half

months, seven months.

1:22:561:22:59

I love it.

1:22:591:23:00

I will stay with it now for ever.

Yeah?

1:23:001:23:02

As long as he wants me anyway.

1:23:021:23:04

Job for life?

Yeah.

1:23:041:23:05

How important was only for you over

that four-year period?

1:23:051:23:07

She's been really good

and she stayed with me

1:23:071:23:09

when she didn't have to, actually.

1:23:091:23:11

She didn't have to do,

yeah, she stayed with me.

1:23:111:23:20

Over the four years that Zoe worked

with Connor to help him stop taking

1:23:201:23:24

and selling drugs and carrying

a knife, he lost his grandmother

1:23:241:23:26

and his girlfriend Rae broke her

back in a motorbike accident.

1:23:261:23:29

Do you remember the very first

time that you met me?

1:23:291:23:32

Not fully, I do kind of remember,

when I was at the centre.

1:23:321:23:35

I can remember in my head,

trying to work out how

1:23:351:23:38

to manage that conversation

with you because you were under

1:23:381:23:40

the influence of something.

1:23:401:23:41

Why do you think you ended up

in that place in the first

1:23:411:23:44

instance, why do you think

you started taking drugs?

1:23:441:23:46

Just in with the wrong crowd

at the time and then...

1:23:461:23:49

But what led to that,

what led to you being

1:23:491:23:51

in with the wrong crowd?

1:23:511:23:57

I didn't really have

any friends my age.

1:23:571:23:59

Give me some significant events that

happened over the course

1:23:591:24:01

of my involvement with you.

1:24:011:24:11

Getting caught with a knife and four

bags of weed and another knife.

1:24:111:24:14

My grandma dying, taking heroin.

1:24:141:24:21

Obviously Rae had that horrific

motorbike accident and you gave up

1:24:211:24:24

everything to care for her as well.

1:24:241:24:26

When do you think that something

clicked and you thought,

1:24:261:24:28

that's it, I've had enough,

I'm definitely not

1:24:281:24:30

going back there now?

1:24:301:24:31

Probably after Rae's crash.

1:24:311:24:32

I thought, I'm never going to go

back there again now.

1:24:321:24:35

I don't know, something

just clicked in my head

1:24:351:24:37

that's not a life to live

really, is it?

1:24:371:24:39

And I have been a bit of a bad lad

and a bit careless sometimes,

1:24:391:24:49

but I'm really appreciative

for everything you've done for me.

1:24:531:24:55

I'll definitely stay

in contact with you.

1:24:551:24:57

I hope you do.

1:24:571:24:58

I'm really proud, to see where

you were and where you are now,

1:24:581:25:01

I'm really proud of your

commitment and determination.

1:25:011:25:03

Thank you very much.

1:25:031:25:08

Dan Clark-Neal reporting.

1:25:081:25:12

Bob Neill is a Conservative

MP and chair of the

1:25:121:25:14

Justice Select Committee.

1:25:141:25:15

Here from Trailblazers,

a national charity that aims

1:25:151:25:17

to reduce re-offending among young

adult offenders by mentoring them

1:25:171:25:20

in and then out of prison are chief

executive John Shepherd.

1:25:201:25:27

Mentor John Owen and mentee

Barry O'Shea who has been in and out

1:25:281:25:32

of prison many times since 2003,

and is now working successfully

1:25:321:25:34

as a personal trainer.

1:25:341:25:41

That me put some figures to you,

from what has happened in

1:25:441:25:48

Nottinghamshire, they have seen a

big drop in the number of youth

1:25:481:25:51

reoffending, from 3309, in 2005, two

615 in 2015. What you think of that?

1:25:511:26:02

-- to 615.

Very powerful evidence.

We found very distinctly that

1:26:021:26:19

maturity goes on until about 25,

there are problems with people's

1:26:191:26:24

lives, a lack of resilience, that

does require a distinct approach

1:26:241:26:30

when you are dealing with young

offenders in that situation but if

1:26:301:26:33

you get it right as they are in

Nottinghamshire, you get to a stage

1:26:331:26:38

where people are capable of turning

their lives around, it reinforces

1:26:381:26:41

very strongly the evidence given to

the committee last year.

National

1:26:411:26:46

figures put reoffending by all

recent ex-prisoners as costing the

1:26:461:26:49

economy between nine and £13 billion

every year. When you take that into

1:26:491:26:55

account as well... It makes you

wonder, does it not, as a

1:26:551:27:00

Conservative MP, what your

government, in power since 2010,

1:27:001:27:03

have not been investing.

Governments

of all parties have got to take

1:27:031:27:08

account of that, this is an issue

that has been talked about for the

1:27:081:27:11

last 20 years or more.

Why does no

one want to put their money where

1:27:111:27:15

their mouth is.

One of the problems

is it is too easy to fall into the

1:27:151:27:20

populist line of saying, you know,

in crude terms, lock them up and

1:27:201:27:25

throw away the key, that is not

exactly what happened, but there is

1:27:251:27:29

an unwillingness to recognise that

even when people do wrong and commit

1:27:291:27:33

serious offences, nonetheless,

particularly when they are young,

1:27:331:27:37

with the right interventions and

investment upfront as we have been

1:27:371:27:40

talking about, it can turn their

lives around. It makes sense in

1:27:401:27:45

economic terms. Quite interestingly,

other centre-right governments in

1:27:451:27:50

Germany and Netherlands and some

parts of the US have recognised that

1:27:501:27:55

and our government will as well.

John, and John, and Barry, really

1:27:551:28:01

interesting in this relationship

between mentors and mentallymentees.

1:28:011:28:11

You use this with adult offenders,

the Nottinghamshire scheme is for

1:28:111:28:16

ten to 15-year-old, talk about how

you helped Barry.

Barry is my fourth

1:28:161:28:26

mentee. I had been leading up to him

in a way...

Is he your favourite?

1:28:261:28:33

LAUGHTER

My longest relationship, we have

1:28:331:28:37

been working together for 18 months.

That is meeting every week, three

1:28:371:28:42

months while he was in Wandsworth

prison, for the rest of the time,

1:28:421:28:46

since he has been released.

What do

you talk about in those meetings?

1:28:461:28:51

Barry is the focus of those

meetings, so he tends to lead, it is

1:28:511:28:57

what he wants to talk about.

Can we

read create one of those meetings?

1:28:571:29:02

You meet, one of your weekly

meetings, 18 months, two years ago.

1:29:021:29:06

-- recreate.

Right at the beginning?

When we are out of jail... Well, we

1:29:061:29:12

often go to Nando's!

LAUGHTER

You have ordered whatever, would you

1:29:121:29:19

have an alcoholic drink?

Nonalcoholic.

What would you say?

We

1:29:191:29:25

would begin discussing, what I have

been doing. Am I hitting my goals,

1:29:251:29:29

how work is going. If I am not

feeling great, to keep pushing

1:29:291:29:34

forward...

What sort of goals?

When

we first met, back in... 18 months

1:29:341:29:41

ago... We sent down every week and

set up goals for me to hit, six

1:29:411:29:46

months to a year, a sickly, get a

job... Get back to doing things I

1:29:461:29:53

enjoy... Get a diploma... Back into

work... Discuss how things are

1:29:531:29:57

going. When we had done the goals...

We did a letter, 12 months later, I

1:29:571:30:04

hit all of them, apart from one. It

was good.

Did you feel you were

1:30:041:30:10

being listened to, were you being

encouraged?

More like support,

1:30:101:30:14

really, without him being there...

Support...

Emotional support?

1:30:141:30:22

Advice? If you want to get a diploma

in that, apply there.

Emotional

1:30:221:30:27

and... Support in every way. If

something is going bad... He made it

1:30:271:30:34

better, he made the situation

better. We have not... Every time I

1:30:341:30:40

thought something was going to go

back, he was able to help me

1:30:401:30:43

understand how it was going to go

good, and since then it has always

1:30:431:30:46

worked out.

Have you had the same

success with previous mentees?

1:30:461:30:53

Barry has been the longest

relationship. I feel it is still an

1:31:001:31:03

on going relationship.

Let me ask

John. Clearly you are doing this,

1:31:031:31:08

with 18 to 25-year-olds, with what

kind of success rate because that's

1:31:081:31:12

what people always ask. I gave the

figures for the Nottingham scheme,

1:31:121:31:16

what about yourself?

You advised

about the extent of the repo fending

1:31:161:31:21

problem that we have in this country

and it is very significant. Our

1:31:211:31:24

stats show people who have been

through the Trail Blazers mentoring

1:31:241:31:30

programme reoffend at 15% compared

to the national rate. So we really

1:31:301:31:33

do make a very, very significant

impact. And the model that we work

1:31:331:31:39

with, which is not dissimilar to

some of the points of the Nottingham

1:31:391:31:43

one, is it takes time to mentor a

young man. You can't do it quickly.

1:31:431:31:49

So our programmes typically start

six months before release. Weekly

1:31:491:31:52

sessions. It takes a while for a

relationship to form for trust to be

1:31:521:31:58

earnt and. Given and then you can

build on that relationship and take

1:31:581:32:05

people through what is a very

significant transition from custody

1:32:051:32:09

into the community afterwards.

I would like to talk about this all

1:32:091:32:16

day, but we can't. I really

appreciate you coming in.

1:32:161:32:28

Still to come, combating

the problem of fake news -

1:32:311:32:34

we'll take a look at a new BBC

initiative to help young people

1:32:341:32:37

filter out false information.

1:32:371:32:47

Serena Williams is going back to

work after giving birth a few months

1:32:481:32:53

ago.

1:32:531:32:54

Time for the latest

news, here's Ben Brown.

1:32:541:32:56

A man's expected to appear in court

shortly over an alleged plot

1:32:561:32:59

to kill the Prime Minister,

Theresa May.

1:32:591:33:01

The BBC understands

Naa'imur Zakariyah Rahman,

1:33:011:33:02

20, from north London,

is accused of planning to bomb

1:33:021:33:04

Downing Street security gates

and then attack the Prime Minister

1:33:041:33:07

with a knife.

1:33:071:33:08

A second man will be charged

with a terrorism offence.

1:33:081:33:13

The Brexit Secretary David Davis has

admitted for the first time

1:33:131:33:20

that the government has not carried

out any formal assessments

1:33:201:33:23

of the impact of leaving the EU

on sectors of the UK economy.

1:33:231:33:26

The admission came earlier this

morning, during questioning

1:33:261:33:28

by the committee of MPs looking

at the UK's exit from the EU.

1:33:281:33:31

So the Government hasn't undertaken

any impact assessments

1:33:311:33:33

on implications of leaving the EU

for different sectors

1:33:331:33:35

of the British economy.

1:33:351:33:36

So there isn't one, for example,

on the automotive sector?

1:33:361:33:38

On the?

1:33:381:33:43

Automotive sector.

1:33:431:33:44

No, not that I'm aware of, no.

1:33:441:33:46

Is there one on aerospace?

1:33:461:33:48

Not that I'm aware of.

1:33:481:33:49

No.

One on financial services?

1:33:491:33:52

I think the answer is going

to be no to all of them.

1:33:521:33:55

No to all of them?

Right.

1:33:551:33:57

The White House says President Trump

is to break with decades of American

1:33:571:34:00

policy in the Middle East

and recognise Jerusalem

1:34:001:34:02

as the capital of Israel.

1:34:021:34:03

He's also due to begin the process

of moving the US embassy

1:34:031:34:06

to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv,

though that may take several years.

1:34:061:34:10

Arab leaders have warned it

would be "a flagrant

1:34:101:34:13

provocation to Muslims".

1:34:131:34:16

The family of an 81-year-old woman

has received a £45,000 pay-out

1:34:171:34:20

after she was kept alive

against her will.

1:34:201:34:22

Brenda Grant made a living

will stating she feared degradation

1:34:221:34:25

and indignity more than death

after seeing her mum lose

1:34:251:34:27

independence through dementia.

1:34:271:34:33

But the George Eliot hospital,

in Nuneaton, Warwickshire,

1:34:331:34:35

misplaced the document

and she was artificially

1:34:351:34:36

fed for 22 months.

1:34:361:34:40

Tens of thousands of people have

been forced to flee from the path

1:34:411:34:44

of wildfires in southern California.

1:34:441:34:45

Hundreds of buildings have been

destroyed by the blazes and several

1:34:451:34:48

thousand homes are under mandatory

evacuation in the cities

1:34:481:34:50

of Ventura and Santa Paula,

north of Los Angeles.

1:34:501:34:57

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:34:571:35:01

Here's some sport now with Hugh.

1:35:011:35:08

England lost all of their remaining

6 wickets in the opening session

1:35:081:35:11

of the final day of the second

Ashes Test in Adelaide.

1:35:111:35:14

They were bowled out for 233

to collapse to a 120

1:35:141:35:20

run defeat in Adelaide which puts

Australia 2-0 ahead,

1:35:201:35:22

just 1 win from regaining the Ashes.

1:35:221:35:23

Chelsea missed out on top spot

in their Champions League group

1:35:231:35:26

after being held to a 1-1 draw

by Atletico Madrid at

1:35:261:35:29

Stamford Bridge last night.

1:35:291:35:30

It means Antonio Conte's side

could face the likes

1:35:301:35:33

of Barcelona or Paris St

Germain in the last 16.

1:35:331:35:36

Manchester United

did top their group,

1:35:361:35:41

coming from behind for a 2-1

win over CSKA Moscow.

1:35:411:35:44

Marcus Rashford got the winner.

1:35:441:35:49

Scottish Champions Celtic

were beaten 1-0 at

1:35:491:35:50

home by Anderlecht.

1:35:501:35:53

They did though hang

on to 3rd in the group,

1:35:531:35:57

meaning they will go

into the Europa League,

1:35:571:36:03

manager Brendan Rodgers said it

gave him "immense pride".

1:36:031:36:06

How worried are you about

debt over Christmas?

1:36:061:36:08

Are you struggling to afford

it at all this year?

1:36:081:36:13

This morning there are two separate

reports out focussing on debt.

1:36:131:36:16

Our correspondent Simon

Gompertz can tell us more.

1:36:161:36:20

Two big warnings from two of the

debt charities who give free advice

1:36:201:36:23

to people who get into trouble. The

first is from some people called

1:36:231:36:27

Step Change and they are warning

about too many people being given

1:36:271:36:30

overdrafts that they can't handle.

And then getting stuck with the

1:36:301:36:34

charges. They want action on that.

The second from national debt line,

1:36:341:36:38

you can phone them for help and they

are worried about Christmas. They

1:36:381:36:42

are warning that this Christmas,

more people will be borrowing, going

1:36:421:36:46

into the red to pay for Christmas.

How much debt are we Brits in

What

1:36:461:36:51

national debt line is saying for

Christmas, they have gone around

1:36:511:36:55

asking people and 37% of the people

that they asked have said that they

1:36:551:36:59

are going to pay for presents on

credit. So that's a big proportion

1:36:591:37:03

and the obvious way of doing that is

by using credit cards and you should

1:37:031:37:07

expect during this month of December

an extra £1 billion will go on

1:37:071:37:13

credit cards to pay for Christmas

and that all has to be paid back and

1:37:131:37:17

there is an impact on this. They

asked people how they felt about it

1:37:171:37:21

and 14% said that they worried every

day about the cost of Christmas. Why

1:37:211:37:26

is it happening? It is happening

because partly prices are going up

1:37:261:37:30

and we know that inflation is 3% at

the moment. That's the rate at which

1:37:301:37:34

prices are increasing and it doesn't

seem so much, but it is the highest

1:37:341:37:38

for five years and the things we pay

for at Christmas like food and

1:37:381:37:43

electronic goods that we give people

at presents, they have been rising

1:37:431:37:46

fastest. It the cheapest Christmas

meal is up 18% compared to last

1:37:461:37:51

year. That's a big thing and we're

told that the average family pays

1:37:511:37:56

about £800 for Christmas. That's the

food, the presents, travelling, all

1:37:561:38:01

that thing. If you can think of that

going up by a significant amount,

1:38:011:38:04

it's a lot of money.

Yes. It really

is. OK. Happens then?

Well, you

1:38:041:38:12

know, there are going to be a lot

more people in January and February

1:38:121:38:15

asking for help. You can get that

for free from Step Change, from

1:38:151:38:20

national debt line and from Citizens

Advice in your town. You can go and

1:38:201:38:24

get free help if you're if trouble.

The worry is people just going bust.

1:38:241:38:27

It is not so much bankruptcy

anymore, it is something called an

1:38:271:38:32

individual voluntary arrangement

where you get protection from your

1:38:321:38:35

creditors and that's going up quite

fast. If there is this debt pressure

1:38:351:38:38

coming ot of the Christmas season

then the danger is there will be

1:38:381:38:41

more of that going on.

Thank you

very much, Simon. We will talk more

1:38:411:38:44

about this in a moment. Let's go to

Westminster. Breaking news, Norman.

1:38:441:38:48

We now know that Theresa May and

Arlene Foster are speaking on the

1:38:481:38:53

blower right now! So there is at

least a conversation going on

1:38:531:38:58

although how far they have got to

try and resolve this deadlock is

1:38:581:39:03

pretty unclear because certainly

overnight the signs were there was

1:39:031:39:06

really not much movement from either

side and this morning just talking

1:39:061:39:09

to some of the DUP folk, they were

saying, we are not going to rush. We

1:39:091:39:13

are talking about something which

could affect generations to come.

1:39:131:39:17

It's going to take time. Suggesting

that they dealt, not in the clocks,

1:39:171:39:23

but in calendars when it came to

time. When you put that together,

1:39:231:39:27

that suggests there is some way to

go before they get some agreement.

1:39:271:39:31

However, on the plus side they are

at least talking on the blower! And

1:39:311:39:35

that must pave the way, I guess,

Downing Street would hope, for

1:39:351:39:39

face-to-face contact to try and

resolve this impasse because without

1:39:391:39:43

it, the danger is we run up against

the EU council next week with no

1:39:431:39:47

progress, no deal and then you are

looking at the possibility of just

1:39:471:39:51

falling out of the EU without any

sort of deal at all.

1:39:511:39:55

Thank you, Norman. The clock is

ticking or the tick is clocking as I

1:39:551:39:59

said the other week and you all knew

what I meant!

1:39:591:40:05

Let's talk to Callum Bell

a mental health nurse

1:40:051:40:08

who relies on his overdraft

to support his family.

1:40:081:40:10

Baz Deacon.

1:40:101:40:14

He's preparing for his first

debt-free Christmas in 13 years.

1:40:141:40:19

And Jane Tulley is from

the Money Advice Trust.

1:40:191:40:24

Calum, this, one of the two reports

out today suggesting that two

1:40:241:40:28

million people in Britain are stuck

in a constant cycle of persistent

1:40:281:40:32

overdraft debt. Can you relate to

that?

Yeah, definitely. That's

1:40:321:40:38

something I experienced probably, it

seems to be, it seems to be

1:40:381:40:42

increasing every month, I'm dipping

a little bit more into my overdraft

1:40:421:40:45

and that's just a regular time of

year over Christmas time. It's even

1:40:451:40:50

more difficult with the amount of

pressure that people are under. I'm

1:40:501:40:55

under to be able to afford

Christmas. I'm concerned this month

1:40:551:40:58

that I am going to be over my

overdraft which means in January I

1:40:581:41:03

will be starting the month in debt.

How often would you say you worry

1:41:031:41:07

about money?

It's a regular concern

of mine. I am not naturally a

1:41:071:41:14

worrier, but I seem to be finding

myself spending more time sitting

1:41:141:41:18

looking at my finances, worrying

about them, and I'm, I don't think

1:41:181:41:22

I'm alone in this. I think there is

large, it's a problem across the

1:41:221:41:27

whole of the country where people

are increasingly concerned about

1:41:271:41:31

finances and debt.

Let me bring in Baz. Describe to our

1:41:311:41:37

audience what it's like when you're

thousands of pounds in debt?

Oh,

1:41:371:41:42

well, so first of all there is the

denial which is don't even notice I

1:41:421:41:48

am lying. You have an area where you

don't admit it to yourself. You put

1:41:481:41:53

on a brave face for everyone. It

then goes to stress which is the

1:41:531:41:58

opposite of denial. When you start

to panic and then the full blown

1:41:581:42:02

fear of are they going to come round

and knock on my door? Are they going

1:42:021:42:07

to send me to prison because of the

council tax? What is going to happen

1:42:071:42:11

and I don't see a way out of this.

All those emotions build up.

Buff

1:42:111:42:17

managed to chip away at your debt

over eight years. How have you done

1:42:171:42:20

it?

Yeah. I joined up with an

organisation called Christians

1:42:201:42:27

Against Poverty. Somebody in my

church was speaking about it and

1:42:271:42:31

they were saying, you know, if you

want to go on this money management

1:42:311:42:34

course, let us know. I always had

that thing of denial and pride. But

1:42:341:42:39

I thought I'm going to have to do

something. So I spoke to them and

1:42:391:42:43

joined up on the course. And the

first two things they said was what

1:42:431:42:48

is said in this room, snais this

room. And also, the more you put

1:42:481:42:55

into this, the more you get out of

it. Also if you need any additional

1:42:551:42:59

support we can get you a support

worker, it is just a phone call

1:42:591:43:03

away.

In practical terms, how did

you do it?

Oh, right. Addressed my

1:43:031:43:08

issues. I also had this issue of

putting unopened envelopes in a box.

1:43:081:43:14

I had to get rid of that. I had to

open up every single letter.

You

1:43:141:43:20

were buring your head in the sand,

but then I have got to confront

1:43:201:43:23

this?

Exactly.

May I bring in Jane

from the Money Advice Trust. Your

1:43:231:43:31

report says one in seven Britons

worry about money every day. Is it

1:43:311:43:35

surprising that it is only one in

seven?

I think a huge number of

1:43:351:43:39

people worry about money on a

regular basis. At Christmas there is

1:43:391:43:44

this added pressure around it. Baz

described the emotions that people

1:43:441:43:49

go through when they are worried

about money, the stress associated

1:43:491:43:52

with it, the constant panic people

feel.

So advice to people now, we

1:43:521:43:56

are 6th December, what is your

advice now?

It is not too late to

1:43:561:44:00

start planning. Budgeting is key. It

might sound like obvious advice, but

1:44:001:44:04

a third don't have a budgets for

their Christmas planning. So,

1:44:041:44:08

setting a budget is key. Making sure

that you know how much you're going

1:44:081:44:12

to spend and trying to stick to

that. Secondly, make sure you don't

1:44:121:44:17

forget to pay any of your regular

bills over the Christmas period.

1:44:171:44:22

Very often people will let a bill

slip over the Christmas period. It's

1:44:221:44:25

important not to do that because you

will have to pay those and then

1:44:251:44:29

thirdly, really important to make

sure that if you are using credit

1:44:291:44:31

you have plan for how you go about

repaying that and then take advice.

1:44:311:44:35

That's always the key bit as Simon

said. There is lots of free services

1:44:351:44:40

available that will help people.

Baz, thank you. Calum, thank you. We

1:44:401:44:45

appreciate you coming on the

programme.

Thank you.

1:44:451:44:53

Now, Serena Williams is expected to

return to the court at the Australia

1:44:531:44:57

Open after giving birth. The

36-year-old hasn't played since

1:44:571:45:03

October. At the age of 40, and mum

of two Jo Pavy became the oldest

1:45:031:45:12

European champion after winning a

medal months after giving birth to

1:45:121:45:17

her daughter, Emily. Hi Jo. Tell me

what you think about what Serena

1:45:171:45:22

Williams is doing?

1:45:221:45:30

Quarantine it is exciting, it

doesn't mean she will necessarily

1:45:301:45:33

compete, I know what it is like,

returning from having a baby,

1:45:331:45:38

sleepless nights, the newborn time

is so precious, so I set myself a

1:45:381:45:43

goal, competing in the trial to try

to get in the athletics team for the

1:45:431:45:47

championships at the time, no

thoughts of medals whatsoever,

1:45:471:45:49

having that goal, thinking, it is a

flexible plan, the newborn time is

1:45:491:45:54

so precious, training became so

different on

1:45:541:45:57

the way back, I was required to have

a Caesarean. All the breast-feeding,

1:45:571:46:09

my first stuff was like a family

affair, little baby in the pram, my

1:46:091:46:13

little boy was on the bike and of

course, being on the treadmill, she

1:46:131:46:21

would not take a bottle for the

first five months. Times at the

1:46:211:46:25

track I was doing were terrible but

I thought, I don't want to put

1:46:251:46:29

pressure on myself.

1:46:291:46:30

Sounds like immense pressure that

you are putting on your shelf, why

1:46:331:46:36

not take off eight months!

I did not

even know if I could return to

1:46:361:46:39

proper competitive running, but I

was still enjoying it, I wanted to

1:46:391:46:43

see if it could work for me as still

having quality family time, that was

1:46:431:46:48

the most important to me, and I

found that a happy balance in my

1:46:481:46:52

life, the joy of being a mother,

that balance made me start to

1:46:521:46:58

perform better, which was

interesting, taking my family

1:46:581:46:59

training full of a lot of

considerations. Obviously, when you

1:46:591:47:03

are pregnant, you keep a little bit

of fitness, having to take so many

1:47:031:47:08

precautions... The list is endless.

Coming back from having a baby you

1:47:081:47:14

have to bear in mind that ligaments

are lax from the effects of

1:47:141:47:18

hormones. I needed to wear a lot of

crop tops, for breast-feeding... A

1:47:181:47:25

lot of body changes... You

inevitably put on weight, that is a

1:47:251:47:31

healthy thing to do for a mother.

But, yeah, it is quite soon. Serena

1:47:311:47:36

Williams is such an amazing athlete,

an amazing competitor. We will see

1:47:361:47:42

how it goes. She is a great female

role model to all women out there.

1:47:421:47:50

Interesting return to sport, I wish

her all the best, I'm sure she will

1:47:501:47:55

take it carefully and she will see

how it goes.

Thank you very much for

1:47:551:47:59

coming onto the programme.

1:47:591:48:03

"Fake news" has been phrase

of the year for 2017;

1:48:161:48:18

thanks in part to President Trump,

it's very quickly became

1:48:181:48:21

part of our vocabulary.

1:48:211:48:21

And it's used by some to describe

not only outright lies,

1:48:211:48:24

but also things people don't agree

with.

1:48:241:48:26

Fake news. Fake news. Fake news.

Little bit of fake news.

You fake

1:48:261:48:28

news!

If you want to discover the

source of the division in our

1:48:281:48:32

country, look no further than the

fake news and the crooked media.

1:48:321:48:40

Which would rather get ratings and

clicks than tell the truth! I want

1:48:401:48:48

you all to know that we are fighting

the fake news. It is fake, phoney,

1:48:481:48:52

fake! Mr President-elect... Not you,

not you, your organisation is

1:48:521:49:00

terrible! Your organisation is

terrible...! Go ahead, quiet...

1:49:001:49:06

She's asking a question, don't be

rude. Don't be rude! Don't be rude.

1:49:061:49:12

I'm not going to give you a

question. You are fake news.

1:49:121:49:24

The BBC is launching a new scheme

to help young people identify real

1:49:241:49:33

news and filter out fake

or false information.

1:49:331:49:35

But how much of a

problem is fake news?

1:49:351:49:37

And what effect is it having

on the smartphone generation?

1:49:371:49:40

Here to help us fund out are a group

of pupils from Walworth Academy

1:49:401:49:43

and Harefield Academy in London

and Year 12 head Clementine Wade

1:49:431:49:46

who'll be putting their knowledge

of fake news to the test.

1:49:461:49:49

I think we should start with a show

of hands, how many of you who have

1:49:491:49:53

shared a new story on social media,

you found it funny or shocking and

1:49:531:49:59

had no idea if it was true or not.

Two of you did not share it, because

1:49:591:50:06

you did not know if it was true.

Well... Tell me why.

Some of the

1:50:061:50:13

news, I know it is fake, but I don't

want to spread something that is not

1:50:131:50:17

real. It might influence the way

people judge others.

I don't really

1:50:171:50:23

use social media, I don't spread

things around, unless it is

1:50:231:50:31

something I fully believe is true

and is something that is shocking...

1:50:311:50:38

But if it is not something you would

believe is true, then I don't see

1:50:381:50:44

why it is worth spreading it around.

For those of you who put your hands

1:50:441:50:49

up, sharing something funny,

hilarious, shocked you, did you care

1:50:491:50:53

whether it was true or not, hands up

if you did not care? Thank you for

1:50:531:50:59

being honest.

When you are in the

moment, you don't really think, is

1:50:591:51:06

this real, is this fake, you think,

it is funny.

From the human aspect,

1:51:061:51:11

there is no matter of caring.

You

have taught lessons about fake

1:51:111:51:16

media, fake news, talk us through

the things you would discuss in

1:51:161:51:20

class.

Firstly it is about getting

them to understand what fake news

1:51:201:51:25

is, there is a sense of passive tea

in my students, that they do not

1:51:251:51:28

have questions over what they read

is not true, it is assumed

1:51:281:51:33

automatically that it is true, if

they have a problem with their

1:51:331:51:36

homework, they use Google. --

passivity. Straightforward

1:51:361:51:39

assumption. First base, questioning

what you are reading and where you

1:51:391:51:44

are reading it from and who wrote

it. Then we have lots of discussions

1:51:441:51:48

over why it is fake news, why this

website... Why they might be trying

1:51:481:51:53

to get this idea out there. An

interesting idea, maybe this new

1:51:531:51:57

form of advertising. We have lots of

discussion about Facebook, and these

1:51:571:52:04

guys are being sold products

continually based on social,

1:52:041:52:07

friends, what they previously had

Google. Trying to get them to be

1:52:071:52:14

active consumers and criticising

what they are consuming.

Example,

1:52:141:52:17

take them away.

Right, ladies and

gentlemen, are you ready. The first

1:52:171:52:23

one we are going to be looking at,

from the onion. Expose a about

1:52:231:52:27

Hillary Clinton, that she is

producing a second book explaining

1:52:271:52:32

why her first book failed. -- The

Onion. Can you put your hands up if

1:52:321:52:37

you think this is true. Five, four,

three, two, one... Is this true?

1:52:371:52:48

Interesting... Chris, hit the Blue

Bulls... Because you are correct, it

1:52:481:52:59

is not true... -- hit the blue bars

are -- buzzer. It is not true.

This

1:52:591:53:11

is a satirical website, why did you

not think it was true?

Does not

1:53:111:53:14

sound worthy of headline, to be

honest.

Especially from what we have

1:53:141:53:20

seen in the news, I don't think she

would ruin what she has done so

1:53:201:53:25

far...

But you were a little bit

unsure, some of you were unsure.

1:53:251:53:41

Does not seem like a headline that

would draw a lot of people in, not

1:53:411:53:45

something people would be interested

in full.

Not punchy enough,

1:53:451:53:49

interesting.

The next one, the Daily

Express...

1:53:491:54:08

Is this true? Can we have a blue

buzzer again. How did you know that?

1:54:151:54:29

In spite of what has been happening

this year, you are led to believe

1:54:291:54:33

that this sort of stuff is quite

normal, now. With the pipe bombs,

1:54:331:54:40

and everything going on this year...

Concerning Ryanair and stuff like

1:54:401:54:48

this in general, mistakes have been

made, for this to be happening, it

1:54:481:54:52

is not really surprising, in a

sense.

Were you influenced by what

1:54:521:54:56

Chris said, he said, I think it's

true.

I was unsure at the beginning,

1:54:561:55:04

why would they let the passenger on

if they knew... But then he did say,

1:55:041:55:11

he did... Yeah...

You are bang on.

We will try to catch them out. This

1:55:111:55:17

next article... About the Prime

Minister of Canada, after hearing

1:55:171:55:22

about President Trump, that he was

going to take the presidency, he

1:55:221:55:26

said he was going to build a wall

between Canada and the USA, and he

1:55:261:55:30

will charge that wall to the USA. Do

you think this is a true headline or

1:55:301:55:36

a full set line? -- or a false

headline.

If you think it is true,

1:55:361:55:48

stick up your hand?

It seems

plausible... It seems relevant... It

1:55:481:55:57

sounds like something you would hear

in the news.

If he is saying about

1:55:571:56:03

getting back at the US, and trump

says about building a wall, Trump

1:56:031:56:08

could use it against him that he is

copying his ideas... I don't think

1:56:081:56:13

it is a true story. Because, if he

is time to get back at the US, then

1:56:131:56:19

he would, you know, he would not

copy something Trump has said. That

1:56:191:56:27

is something Trump could use against

him.

Do you understand... It sounds

1:56:271:56:33

plausible. That is why lots of

people share stuff, which they think

1:56:331:56:41

might be true.

You have to think of

the bigger picture, because,

1:56:411:56:48

personally, I thought, why would he

get involved. I thought the wall was

1:56:481:56:52

more to do with Mexico and the US.

If you have that knowledge, if you

1:56:521:57:01

second-guess the article...

That is

contemporary, this is backdated to

1:57:011:57:04

the time of the election... Very

good. Shall we do the final one.

1:57:041:57:13

This is backdated, again about

President Trump, a quota that he

1:57:131:57:16

made in the 1980s. -- a quote that

he made in the 1980s.

1:57:161:57:29

Is that true or is that false?

1:57:351:57:41

You are wrong, you have been fooled.

Why did you think it was true?

I

1:57:491:57:55

thought it was true because it

sounds true... It is just like the

1:57:551:58:01

sort of thing that Donald Trump

would say.

Anyone else?

The always

1:58:011:58:07

talks about other people.

We are

almost at the end of the programme,

1:58:071:58:14

I'm glad that we caught people out.

The BBC launching that initiative.

1:58:141:58:21

You can read more about it on the

website.

1:58:211:58:26

On the programme tomorrow, we will

look at sexual harassment in the

1:58:261:58:29

modelling industry. Have a good

1:58:291:58:32

Victoria hosts an audience debate over Brexit so far. Plus calls for a new way to tackle youth offending, the man in court over an alleged plot to kill Theresa May, and news that more Brits are experiencing stress over debt than in previous years.