15/12/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's 9am. Welcome to the

programme.

EU leaders signal that they're ready

to take Brexit talks

to the next stage and work out

what their relationship with Britain

will look like when we leave.

Theresa May was applauded for her

efforts by European Counterparts

at a dinner last night ahead

of the EU decision.

Over the next two hours, the 27 EU

leaders will approve the withdrawal

terms and start discussing the

guidelines for the next phase, the

future relationship.

We'll have the latest throughout the

programme.

Also today - a rape trial collapses

after phone evidence

which could have proved

the defendant's innocence two years

ago is finally released to lawyers.

A senior barrister in the case

tells us what happened.

And will a new sexual health

campaign be enough to stop

increasing numbers of young people

ignoring the safe sex messag?

Hello.

Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11 this morning.

Do get in touch on all the stories

we're talking about this morning -

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE,

and if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

Our top story today: EU leaders

are expected to formally agree

to start the next phase

of Brexit negotiations later.

Talks on a transition deal

could begin as early as next week.

At a dinner in Brussels last night,

Theresa May was applauded

by her fellow leaders

after stressing her desire

for a "smooth" departure.

Christian Fraser is

in Brussels for us.

Christian, what can we expect today?

First, the thing to say is, we have

all been surprised by the sort of

reaction to Theresa May after the

defeat in the Commons on Wednesday

night. There has been another round

of goodwill, the leaders putting

their arm around Theresa May and

seeing her as the person they want

to deal with. That was reflected

with the round of applause in the

room last night as she set out what

she wants from the future

relationship. Apparently there was

also a drink between Emmanuel

Macron, Angela Merkel, Jean-Claude

Juncker and Donald Tusk, they all

got together for a drink. And there

is clearly a lot of respect for

Theresa May as a negotiator, which

tells us to make things, I think.

First, they don't want someone who

might be more hard might have

different red lines. And it tells us

that they have accepted in this

building that Brexit is going to

happen. They want it to happen in as

organised a way as is possible, and

they think Theresa May can deliver

that.

What happens next?

They will talk today about the last

phase, the withdrawal. They will

rubber-stamp what has been agreed

and what was signed up to last

Friday. Then they will talk about

the guidelines for the future

relationship. We're not talking

about trade. That can't happen until

we leave the EU. Principally, they

will talk about the transition, that

two-year period. And they have made

it clear that although, in name,

maybe Britain has left the single

market and the customs union, in

practice they will

abide by all the rules in the single

market and customs union and will be

under the jurisdiction of the

European Court. There doesn't appear

to be much wriggle room on that.

Past that, when it comes to the

summit in March, they will talk

about the future relationship. It is

really the framework for the

relationship, what sort of

relationship Theresa May wants. I

don't think they've had much detail

from her on that, because as we

know, she has not even discussed it

with the cabinet. There is a lot of

work to do on that and there are

inconsistencies between the two

sides. The mood in the building is

broadly positive.

Christian, for now, thank you. We

will catch up the Christian later.

Let's get a summary of the rest of

the day's news.

The prosecuting lawyer in the trial

of student accused of rape,

which collapsed yesterday

because of the late disclosure

of evidence, has blamed

the police for the mistakes.

The trial of 22-year-old Liam Allan

was halted at Croydon Crown Court

after it was revealed the police had

not disclosed thousands of text

messages from the alleged victim

which proved Liam's innocence.

The judge has called for an inquiry

at the highest level.

The prosecuting lawyer, Jerry Hayes,

who uncovered those text messages

has told this programme,

the case could have been a huge

miscarriage of justice.

The Metropolitan Police says it

will carry out an "urgent

assessment" into what happened

in the case.

Tina has been speaking to the

prosecution lawyer.

There will be an

enquiry, no doubt. I don't think

there was any malice or lie in, just

pure incompetence. A lot of police

officers do not know their duty of

disclosure, and what he should have

done, he should have examined the

desk. OK, there were about 50,000

messages on it, but that is his job.

He should have made a note, and the

reviewing lawyer should have looked

at it. That didn't happen. We nearly

had a very serious miscarriage of

justice, where a young man's life

would have been trashed.

The Church of England has apologised

to the family of a bishop

for failings in the way it

investigated allegations of child

abuse against him more

than 50-years after his death.

George Bell, who died in 1958,

was alleged to have repeatedly

abused a young girl.

She made a formal complaint in 1995

and, 10 years later,

won an apology and compensation

from the Church.

An independent review

of the investigation

is being published this morning.

One in six parents in the UK gives

their children alcohol by the age of

14, according to new research,

despite medical advice that says

children shouldn't drink until they

are at least 15. Researchers from

University College London found that

white, well-educated parents were

most likely to have a relaxed

attitude to young people drinking.

Philippa Roxby reports.

Christmas can be a time of year when

teenagers get to taste alcohol for

the first time, but researchers

found that it could be harmful in

their bodies are not ready for it

yet. 17% of parents have let their

children drink alcohol by the age of

14. Well-educated parents of white

children were more likely to let

their adolescent children drink than

unemployed and ethnic minority

parents. Half of 14-year-olds said

they had tried more than just a few

sips of alcohol.

People at a young

age tend to think it is the right

thing to do. Obviously, it's not

really the right thing to do.

It

depends on the child, doesn't it?

And how the risk -- how responsible

they are.

Obviously, there's a

limit.

The study found that light or

moderate drinking parents were just

as likely to let their children have

alcohol as heavy drinking parents.

Parents of socially advantaged

children may believe that teaching

them responsible alcohol use is what

they are doing, but we have no

evidence to support this view. The

Chief medical officer recommends an

alcohol free childhood, so no

drinking before the age of 15,

because it can be harmful to their

growth and development.

Alcohol

charity said parents needed more

guidance from schools and doctors on

how to talk to their children about

alcohol. Their advice is to set

clear rules for teenagers on

alcohol, and to be open and honest

with them about its effects.

Britain's most senior military

officer has warned of a new threat

posed by Russia to communications

cables that run under the sea.

The head of the Defence Staff,

Air Chief Marshall Sir Stuart Peach,

said Britain and NATO must avoid

the risk of a potentially

"catastrophic" effect on the economy

if the cables were cut.

An enquiry into child sexual abuse

in Australia has made more than 400

recommendations in its final report.

The Royal commission, which spent

five years hearing evidence, said

that tens of thousands of -- tens of

thousands of children had been

abused at institutions including

churches, orphanages and schools.

Malcolm Turnbull has paid tribute to

the courage of those who came

forward to give evidence.

The commission has exposed a

national tragedy. It is an

outstanding exercise in love, and I

thank the commissioners and those

who had the courage to tell their

stories. Thank you very much.

The White House says Donald Trump

and the Russian president,

Vladimir Putin, have discussed

working together to resolve

the crisis over North Korea's

nuclear programme.

Meanwhile, the most senior UN

official to visit North Korea

for six years told the BBC,

Pyongyang should re-open

communication channels with

South Korea, which were suspended

in 2009.

Ryanair has invited pilot unions

across the EU to discussions. It

said that Christmas flights were

important to its customers and they

wanted to remove any worry that they

might be disrupted by this and

industrial action. Ryanair said it

would change its policy on

recognising unions to avoid

disruption in the run-up to

Christmas.

9 million adults in the UK are

chronically lonely, according to the

commission set up by the MP Jo Cox

before her murder. It says that

loneliness is as harmful to help a

smoking 15 cigarettes a day and

calls for a Government led national

strategy to address the problem.

Danny Savage reports.

You can't catch me.

In the months before

she was murdered, Jo Cox

started a campaign

to tackle loneliness.

You can't catch me.

In the months before

she was murdered, Jo Cox

started a campaign

to tackle loneliness.

She said she didn't want to live

in a country where thousands

of people live lonely lives

forgotten by the rest of us.

The campaign carried

on in her name and

has now concluded we'll have

to do our bit to combat loneliness.

Susan spent months

feeling isolated and

desperate, but things

improved hugely when

the royal voluntary service

intervened.

I was really alone, I was depressed,

I tried to take my own life.

Really bad.

In a lot of pain.

If it wasn't for these people,

all these people that's helping me

now, I wouldn't be here.

And I appreciate everything that

people have done for me.

It's not always obvious to people

that they might be lonely or in need

of some companionship.

And what we offer

isn't somebody to come

in and talk at people.

What we are doing is saying

to people, would you

like to be part of something

where you meet somebody,

you get to know them,

they get to know you and you

create a friendship?

The Jo Cox Loneliness

Commission has concluded

that government and employers can

do their bit to deal with loneliness

but that individuals and communities

are just as important in preventing

isolation.

Danny Savage, BBC

News, West Yorkshire.

This programme understands that no

police were stationed inside this

year's V Festival in Essex

because of a dispute over money.

Organisers submitted a request

for police services at a cost

of £100,000 but an

agreement on the level

of policing and money

couldn't be reached.

It's thought the organisers

of the event spent 138

thousand pounds on policing

the previous year.

Around 50 thousand people

attend the festival.

'Youthquake' has been named

2017's word of the year

by the Oxford English Dictionary.

Defined as a "significant cultural,

political, or social change arising

from the actions or influence

of young people".

The Labour

leader Jeremy Corbyn's

engagement with the youth,

in the run up to the general

election which saw the number

of young people voting increasing

significantly is seen

an example of a youthquake.

The word was first used by the

editor of Vogue magazine in the

1960s to describe how youth culture

was changing fashion and music.

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9:30.

Lets get some sport now with John

Watson. For people who are just

waking up, what can you tell us

about the Ashes and how England are

doing?

It is fair to say that

Australia will be the happier of the

two teams. A short while ago, they

were 173-2, which means they trail

England by 230 runs. England were

all out for 403. Jonny Bairstow

resumed on 75 not out, and went on

to move past 100. That was a huge

relief for him, as you can imagine,

after a number of batsmen have

failed to register big scores so far

in this series. Delighted, as you

can see. After the head-butting

incident at the start of the series

that he was involved in. Dawood

Mallon... The wickets started to

tumble then. England were all out

for 403. In reply, Craig Overton

making an early breakthrough.

Captain Steve Smith, as we are

seeing here, has played superbly,

and it's his performance that has

pulled Australia back into it after

that big English scorer in the first

innings. He is on 74, so closing in

on his century as well. I think that

England will feel that because they

did not take a wicket in that last

session, it is Australia who are on

top of the match at the moment.

Some

Australia the happier of the two

teams, obviously.

Yes, and I think

that's crucial. With two matches

remaining, England know that if they

lose this test, it is all over. They

need a draw, if anything. They had

put that big score on the board,

which will help, but not taking a

wicket in that last session will

leave them frustrated, and Joe Root

will know that that wicket could be

crucial. If they had got Steve

Smith, that would have made a

difference, but Australia have the

momentum. The way the series is

placed, England can't afford to lose

key sessions, and it is fair to say

that they have done that today. My

mentor with Australia heading into

day three, and England's bowlers

have a lot of work to do going into

that.

For now, thank you. We will

catch up with you again a little

later.

Sexual health is probably the last

thing you discuss with your friends,

and Public Health England say

that's the problem.

According to new research the topic

is still as difficult

as ever to talk about.

Of the 2,000 16-24 year olds

they spoke to, 56% of men said

they found it difficult to talk

about STIs with friends for women

it was 43% 58% of either sex said

if they had an STI they would find

it hard to tell their partner.

But with cuts happening

across sexual health,

how easy is staying safe

and getting treated?

One couple shared intimate details

of their STIs with the BBC.

So, I'd had chlamydia previously,

so I was familiar with the symptoms.

So when I started,

when they started appearing, I...

Initially, I actually thought

it was a bladder infection,

but that was more wishful thinking,

I suppose.

So when I got the symptoms,

I went to the doctors

with an open mind, I suppose.

I explained what it was that I was

feeling, and we did some tests.

I didn't have any symptoms.

I just found out when he actually

told me that he had chlamydia.

That's quite typical,

I think, in men and women.

Women often don't show any symptoms.

Because of that, there wasn't

a whole lot of blame,

it was more just...

Just a kind of worry for each other.

We just decided to get

on and deal with it.

Let's talk now to Dr Sara Kayat.

She's a GP that does around

five STI checks a day.

Noah Ross is an 18-year-old college

student who contracted

chlamydia last year.

Sophie Lane is a university student,

who thinks the stigma around wearing

condoms needs to change.

Welcome to the programme. Sophie,

why do you think young people in

2017 still find it difficult to talk

about six?

I think people tend to

talk about it but nobody wants to

discuss the nitty gritty things that

are perceived as embarrassing and so

people tend to shy away from the

topic, I think.

It is not

prioritised enough, in our country,

it is, but in our countries, it is

not talked about at a young enough

age so when they are learning about

this and getting involved, they do

not know what they are doing wrong,

they might have a misconception of

it.

You went to school in Dubai,

what was that like, did you have any

conversations at school about sexual

health and being safe?

Unfortunately, not really. For me, I

was taught a lot about that from

family, but a lot of my friends did

not have someone like that to talk

to and our school did not offer much

in terms of education for sexual

health. When you say not really,

does that mean it was non-existent?

Almost, yes, it was a taboo topic

because sex outside of weblog is

illegal.

What impact did that have

your classmates? You are having that

conversation with your family, what

about them?

I feel sorry for a lot

of my friends because they were

almost unprepared when it got to

that age. They did not know exactly

what they were doing. When it comes

to that, the best thing is to be

safe and to be educated.

Let's talk

about what we're hearing today, the

statistic that 50% of young people

will not use protection when

sleeping with a new partner very

first time does that surprise you?

Not really. I think the stigma

behind condom use is that it is not

as fun, it doesn't feel as good. It

is boring and things. So I think if

people started to recognise that

actually, it is not cool to get STIs

and it is cool to use condom is,

because that way you are protected,

people.

Using it a bit more. And

both of you, you are part of that

demographic, which 50% do you fall

into, the half that would or would

not?

I have quite a Liberal

friendship group. Me and my family

are very open. So I am able to talk

about it. A couple my who have

contracted STIs have spoken about it

openly with me and our friendship

group.

The doctor now, what is your

response to what we are hearing

today?

It is really shocking to hear

such a large number of people not

using condoms. Primarily, people use

them to avoid pregnancy and not

necessarily think about STIs. It is

so important that this campaign

reaches a wider audience to try and

get everyone talking about STIs and

sex and how to do it safely.

What

are the risks?

The risks of STIs can

have significant consequences in the

future. They can be infertility,

some people can develop types of

arthritis, pelvic inflammatory

disease, a number of consequences

need to be thought about.

Why is it

important to diagnose those STIs

early? You do around five checks a

day.

You want to get it early

because it is treatable early. Also,

because you are stopping other

people getting it.

So it stops the

snowballing effect. What about this

idea that it is difficult, which is

understandable, difficult to tell a

partner if you have an STI?

Of

course it is. For those confident in

themselves and with their partner,

it is great to have that open

relationship, to talk about those

things without blame. But for those

that are going to struggle, to beat

your health care professional.

People like myself, people in sexual

health clinics, they can do what we

call contact tracing, where we

contact partners anonymously for

them so that they are able to know

they might be at risk of STIs.

And

it is about the blame culture as

well. If you are telling their

partner, previous partner, you may

have parted on bad news, telling

them there is a risk they may have

an STI is not easy so the anonymous

way is slightly scary, but better

than nothing.

Yes, it might sound

scary to receive a letter like that,

but most of us would rather receive

that and find out and never know and

potentially get these horrible

risks.

How regularly would you both

have checks? If at all.

I get

checked every time I sleep with

somebody.

Yes, Presley, exactly the

same. I have got a long-term

girlfriend at the moment and I do

have it roughly every three months,

I go to the sexual health clinic.

What does STI testing involved for

people who have never been tested?

It depends on the STI we are looking

for, most of them, it is a swab. And

we can also do ur tests. So it can

be as quick as just a wee in a

bottle.

Easy to do and important.

Let's know what you think. If you

are part of the half but would not

use a condom or protection, when

having sex with your partner for the

first time, let's know. If you have

been checked for an STI or have had

chlamydia or any STIs, let's know

what happened. Thank you to

everybody who has been in touch

about our special programme.

on the Grenfell Fire tragedy

from St Paul's Cathedral yesterday.

Harry said, "It reminded me

of your excellent your coverage

of the immediate aftermath,

the later situation,

and how residents feel today

and how your programme has genuine

empathy with the

displaced residents."

Well, one story which we couldn't

bring you yesterday

really illustrates the resilience

of the Grenfell Community.

Dale Youth, the amateur boxing club

of champion title-holders

like James DeGale and George Groves,

was located in Grenfell Tower.

Six months on, Rhia Chohan went

to meet its members.

The night before the fire,

we were actually training in our

gym, which was in the tower block.

We finished here about 9:45,

10 o'clock, then I had a phone call,

quarter to five in the morning,

from one of the trainers who trains

with me, saying that,

"I drove by the tower block and it's

all in flames and smoke,"

he said, "It's terrible."

I said, "You've got to be

laughing, Jamie," you know,

"We only came out there..."

He said, "Mick, put your television

on and have a look."

It was just horrendous.

Dale Youth was a focal point

for this community, and it's used

to producing champions.

It was located in the lower

floors of Grenfell Tower.

They relocated from newly

refurbished facilities

to a converted car park nearby,

with no heating and only basic kit.

And they could be there

for the next two years.

It makes you feel very sad

because, obviously, first,

died in there and their families

you've got to think of.

Obviously, we lost a brand-new gym

out of it but, as I say,

we can get over that,

the gym, because we've

got all the lads that

were in the new gym back

now with us.

Life's got to go on,

and these lads want to box.

The gym's been around

for a very long...

There's lots of boxers

round here, lots of champions.

There's great coaches around me,

so I don't think I'll ever stop.

Despite everything,

the club is still thriving.

We started back six weeks

after the fire, we've already had

four national champions this year.

We're both brothers,

we both fought in the Under-Ten

Novices, we both won.

We're still here training.

It goes to show that trainers

are putting the work in.

They're not letting all these bad

things, negative things,

put the boxers down.

It's helping each other,

pushing each other, and we're

getting the results.

There'll be nothing

stopping this club, though,

because boys who box,

it's in their blood

to box, you know?

As long as we've got even a small

shed with a couple of bags in,

we'll just carry on.

Mick and his club aren't

going anywhere, and,

like the people of Grenfell,

they're still fighting.

Head Coach of Dale Youth boxing

club. Still to come on the

programme...

A group of people with cystic

fibrosis have released

a charity Christmas single,

despite their condition meaning

they are not able to meet

each other in person.

9 million adults in the UK, evidence

that chronic loneliness is as

damaging to health as smoking 15

cigarettes a day. We will ask what

can be done about it.

Time for the latest

news - here's Annita.

The BBC News headlines

this morning...

EU leaders are expected to formally

agree to start the next phase

of Brexit negotiations later.

Talks on a transition deal

could begin as early as next week.

At a dinner in Brussels last night,

Theresa May was applauded

by her fellow leaders

after stressing her desire

for a "smooth" departure.

A judge has called for an enquiry

after a student was cleared of rape

when police failed to disclose

evidence casting doubt on the case.

22-year-old Leah Mallon spent two

years on bail before his trial at

Croydon Crown Court was halted when

it was revealed his accuser said the

messages expressing fantasies about

violent sex. Prosecuting lawyer

Jerry Hayes told the programme this

information did not come to light

until he's pacific we asked police

to give the defence team a list of

the women's phone messages. One in

six parents in the UK gives their

children alcohol by the age of 14

according to new research, despite

medical research that says children

should not drink until they are a

year older. Researchers from

University College London bound

bright and well educated parents

were most likely to have a relaxed

attitude to young people drinking.

An Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

in Australia has made more than 400

recommendations in its final report.

The Royal Commission, which spent

five years hearing evidence, said

tens of thousands of children had

been assaulted at more than 4,000

institutions including churches,

orphanages and schools. Prime

Minister Malcolm Turnbull has paid

tribute to those who came forward to

give evidence. Ryanair has invited

pilot unions across Europe for talks

on their recognition in a bid to

stop the first pilot strike in

history. The Irish no-frills airline

said Christmas flights were very

important to customers and it wanted

to remove worry they may be

disrupted by industrial action.

Ryanair has never recognised unions,

but it said it would change this

policy in order to avoid disruption

in the run-up to Christmas. 9

million adults in the UK are

chronically lonely, according to a

Commission set up by the MP Jo Cox

before her murder. It says

loneliness is as harmful to health

as smoking 15 cigarettes a day and

it calls for a government led

national strategy to address the

problem. That is a summary of the

latest BBC News.

Here's some sport now.

I said England had not made a

breakthrough in the last session of

the day and a two of the third Ashes

Test in Perth, but they have at

last. They would have preferred to

take the captain Steve Smith who has

wrestled back the momentum towards

Australia. They were 180-3 short

while ago so they are trailing by

123 after England made 403 in their

first innings. So a key wicket.

After wringing his eighth Wimbledon

title, perhaps surprisingly, not

surprisingly the Fed has been named

the BBC sports personality for the

40 in a row, only Muhammad Ali and

Usain Bolt have won the award times

previously. Hereford last week but

last night, they take on Leicester

in the next round so we will see a

return or Jamie Vardy to his former

club. And despite being caught

napping between frames, he would

have thought that? Unbelievable from

Ronnie O'Sullivan, but he is awake

enough to make it through to the

quarterfinals. That is the sport, I

will be back later.

A group of people with cystic

fibrosis have overcome a huge hurdle

to release a charity

Christmas single.

People with the condition cannot

meet each other face-to-face,

as physical contact can cause

dangerous bacteria to be

passed between them.

Despite this, a group of them

decided to form a choir.

Here's their story.

# This is the sound of one voice.

# One spirit, one voice.

# The sound of one...

What's unusual about this choir

is because all of the members

have cystic fibrosis,

we're not allowed to be in the same

room at the same time,

and if we did there could be really,

really serious consequences

and we could become really ill.

# I've got cystic fibrosis.

# Every time I laugh there's

a high chance I'll pee.

# And I have very low

vitamin A + E + D...

My name's Charles Michael Duke,

I'm 22 and I have cystic fibrosis,

and I'm currently waiting

for a double lung transplant.

It is isolating, being unable

to meet others with cystic

fibrosis face-to-face.

My life currently is based a lot

around CF and organ donation,

but I do still love to sing.

I don't know what I'd

write about if I didn't

have CF, to be honest.

Probably boring stuff like bills

to pay and women that

don't treat me right.

Is that what people

write about nowadays?

I don't really know.

I got the idea of the virtual choir

from thinking about how

I could bring us all together

even though we're not actually

allowed to physically be together.

They're the only other people

in the world who know exactly

what you're going through,

and it is difficult

to not be able to meet.

It has been a bit of a logistical

nightmare to co-ordinate it.

The person with cystic fibrosis

arrives, they record their section

of the song on their own

in the booth, and they have

a two-hour slot to do that in,

and then the producers have to clean

the studio really thoroughly

and wipe any surface down the person

with CF has touched,

and the studio has to be aired out,

and there has to be two hours

in-between each person with cystic

fibrosis leaving the studio

and the next person arriving so that

it's nice and clean and safe

and ready for the next person

to come in and record their bit.

# This is the sound of one voice.

# One spirit, one voice...

One of the reasons I took it

on is obviously they are very aware

that I have CF and that I'm waiting

for a transplant, so the whole

singing thing is, if you want

to sing it a few words at a time,

we'll sing it a few words at a time.

# This is the sound of one voice...

It was really beautiful to be

singing with other people

with cystic fibrosis.

It was really lovely,

and there's a particular line

in the song that was,

"Helping each other

to make it through,"

and that was really emotive.

It was really cool that we've found

a way to sing together even though

we shouldn't be able to sing

together, but we've

managed to do it.

# This is the sound of one voice.

# One spirit, one voice.

# The sound of one

who makes a choice...

I think it's weird that this

is the closest I'll be to everyone,

but we're doing it in the best way

and the safest way we can,

and I think it kind of still

achieves what a choir is -

a group of people coming together

and making a wonderful sound.

# This is the sound of all of us.

# Oooh-oooh...#.

We can speak now to Bianca Maguire,

who you saw there in that film -

Bianca has cystic fibrosis -

and whose idea it was to form

a cystic fibrosis choir.

Also here is James Hawkins,

the music producer behind the album,

which is called 'Stand Together' -

and includes tracks from a number

of other charity choirs.

It's good to see you here. You have

a lovely boys.

Thank you.

When did

you come up with the idea to form a

cystic fibrosis choir in the first

place?

I was trying to get it off

the ground for a few years, 45

years, and I wanted to a way to

share the fact that singing has

helped me, both emotionally, and I

feel it has helped to keep my lungs

healthy, to share that with other

people who have cystic fibrosis and

to find a way of bringing us

together and breaking down that

barrier of not being able to meet in

person.

One of the most striking

things about the condition is that

cross infection, so two people with

Richard never meet face-to-face,

which I had no idea about.

Yeah,

lots of people don't know. Some

people do choose to meet

face-to-face. It is a personal

choice, but it can be incredibly

dangerous, so we do try not to. When

we go to hospital, clinics, they

have a very tight schedule to keep

to to make sure we don't come in

contact with each other.

How

isolating is that for you, then?

Because you obviously want to speak

to other people who are sharing

similar experiences to you. What's

it like?

Yeah, I actually was never

really close to anyone with cystic

fibrosis growing up, but over the

last two years, I become incredibly

close a couple of people. One girl,

Victoria, who is on the track as

well, is one of my best friends, and

we contact each other at least

weekly. It's heartbreaking that we

can't meet up in person, because she

is one of my best friends, and I

suppose it's similar to having a pen

pal, in a way, but it's a shame we

can't see each other in person,

because they're the only people in

the world to know what you're going

to and how it feels.

What impact as

it had on your life? I know you say

this has helped you - what is it

like living with cystic fibrosis?

It

fluctuates. Some days, I can be

fine, and other days, I can wake up

and my chest is really bad. I also

have cystic fibrosis- related

diabetes, which affects the pancreas

as well, so I can't digest my food

properly. Because it's an invisible

condition, unless you are very

poorly and on oxygen, people can't

tell, which is a blessing and a

curse in equal measure, I think.

They can't tell that you have this

disability.

You are part of the

reason this album has happened in

the first place - how did you first

get involved?

It is a project that

was already happening, which Claire

Cook and I set up early in the year.

The idea was joining a choir

together with the song to get across

a specific message about what the

charity do, or something like the

cystic fibrosis choir, where we're

explaining cross contamination and

people not being able to be

together. It has been a fascinating

journey, and it has been great to be

able to make situations like this

actually easy to understand, and

using a choir in this instance has

been the best way to describe the

fact that these people can't

actually be together in the same

room.

What were the biggest

challenges for you? As we saw in the

film, the studio has to be deep

cleaned before the next person comes

in - that must've been tough.

It was

great fun, but we wanted to be sure

that everyone was safe, so studio

had to undergo the wiping down of

surfaces every time someone came in,

the fans were on to ventilate the

room. We cleaned all the services,

maybe a little over the top.

I have

recorded in a studio where it is not

so fresh and clean before!

There was

no dust anywhere.

They did a very

good job.

What kind of feedback have

you had from other people who have

taken part?

Everybody feels very

much connected as part of the

community. Choirs create that kind

of family spirit, and people have

made friendships and bonds that

would never have happened without

the project.

Tell me about the other

choirs you brought together for the

album.

We had a missing person's

choir.

We had them on not long ago.

Their experience through singing

together echoes through the other

choirs.

It is for people who have

children or loved ones who have gone

missing and it is an opportunity for

them to come together and sing as a

form of therapy.

You can feel very

isolated and on your own, and choirs

bridge that gap. It is not directly

talking about anything like that,

it's just unspoken, and you build

that bond. I think music just does

that for you.

It's very therapeutic.

What is it about singing in

particular, because there are lots

of different forms of therapy, so

what is it about singing?

There's

something about it that is really

good for your psyche, and being part

of making that beautiful noise, and

the harmonies. So, for me, I didn't

get to feel that until I heard the

finished track. When I did, it was

like, wow. This idea I had so long

ago has finally come together, and

it sounds so beautiful and I am

proud of it. It's just a great

feeling, I guess, when you have any

condition, or you are affected by

something to do with any other

charities, that you can feel a bit

hopeless. But this is doing

something to help, doing something

positive out of a bad situation.

It

is such a lovely story. Thank you

both for coming in to talk about it.

A judge in a rape trial has found

that vital evidence was not put

forward. The failure of the Crown

Prosecution Service and Metropolitan

police to release phone evidence

only came to light when senior

prosecuting barrister Jerry Hayes

was given the brief and ask for more

information. We can talk to him live

now. Thank you for joining us. Can

you tell us exactly what happened?

It was this: This was a very serious

multiple rape case. The woman, the

person who made the allegations, had

given her evidence. The defence

counsel said, have you got a disc of

the downloads from her telephone? I

said, I haven't seen it, CPS haven't

seen it. I spoke to the officer

responsible for disclosure, and I

said, have you got it? And he said

he had. He said it could not be

disclosed, and I asked why. He said

it is personal matters. I said, is

there anything on that desk which

could undermine the prosecution case

or assist the defence? He said no,

but I wasn't happy about that. I

said that that I thought the defence

should have at this. We adjourn for

a day. The defence sought

information which completely blew

the prosecution case out of the

window. If they hadn't had that

disclosure, this young man would

have been sent to prison for 12

years and would have been on the sex

offenders register for the rest of

his life, with precious little

chance of an appeal. So, this was a

massive, massive miscarriage of

justice which, thank heavens, was

avoided.

And why do you think that

the police repeatedly insisted that

there was nothing of interest for

the prosecution or the defence?

I

don't think they had looked at it

properly. There were 2400 pages and

about 50,000 texts. I don't think

they had looked at it. Of course,

police officers sometimes don't

understand that it is their duty to

review these matters then report it

to the CPS. Then a CPS lawyer will

get on Dalek -- will get in contact

with me and we will decide what to

do. That is not lying or misleading,

it is just sheer incompetence, I'm

afraid.

We also heard that to save

costs, material wasn't always handed

to defence lawyers - what is your

response to that?

I'm not entirely sure about that.

You have to understand that the CPS

and the police, and all of us in the

criminal justice system, are under

tremendous pressure because we're

running out of money. This is a

system which is not just creaking,

it is about to croak. If we have any

more treasury cutbacks, there will

be more cases like this, except they

won't come before people like you.

The defendant has said he is not

ready to do interviews yet, but he

has said he's so grateful to you.

Can you tell us about the the tribal

collapsed?

I gave him advice. As

soon as I asked for the jury to be

discharged and we had the

information available, I wanted that

boy to know that there should be no

further evidence given. Obviously,

he was happy, but this has been

hanging over his head for two years.

A young man of good character, he

could have had his life totally

trashed. That was awfully wrong.

How

concerned are you that this could be

happening in other cases?

It has

happened in other cases. I had a

similar case and I wrote a piece in

The Times a few months ago. It was a

firearms case. There was a

streamlined report, a miniature

report, saying that the guy's DNA

was found on the magazine of the

gun. When we looked at the report,

it was not on it. The more the cuts

come to this service, the more

possibilities miscarriage of justice

will come. And it is unacceptable.

Jerry Hayes, thank you for talking

to us.

Loneliness is as harmful to health

as obesity or smoking

15 cigarettes a day -

that's according to a report

published today, which also says

that over nine million adults

are often or always lonely.

The report comes from

the Jo Cox Loneliness Commission -

a cross-party group set up by the MP

Jo Cox before her

murder in June 2016.

With us in the studio

are two people who have

struggled with isolation -

Becca Maberely, who struggled

with loneliness as a new mum

and then started an online community

"A Mother Place", to help others.

And Meg Mclean, who is being

supported by Lois Muddiman to help

overcome her loneliness.

Also from Leeds, we have

Conservative MP Seema Kennedy

and Labour MP Rachel Reeves.

You find the time after you gave

birth to be very isolating, what

happened?

For me, it was a big shift

that nobody warned me about, going

from having a busy professional life

and a social life to suddenly being

at home all day every day with a

baby who, although my son was much

wanted and loved, babies do not give

a lot back. They don't do much

rather than triple and we and

suddenly being home alone without

the adult interaction you are used

to commit really isolating. And no

matter how supportive your family

and friends are, I had lots of great

friends and family around, but I I

still just felt lonely and isolated.

And when you are going through that,

would you have described it as

loneliness?

Perhaps not, I was not

quite sure how to identify what I

was feeling. It was the station as

well, I think. Yes, I think perhaps

admitting you are lonely or

admitting you are struggling is

difficult if you're used to just

sort of being happy and leading a

good life.

Can you describe what it

is like, what it feels like when you

are living an isolated life, Neg?

It

is incredibly hard to describe.

Especially if you have gone from a

busy life once upon a time to then

feeling so isolated. You get

frightened if you get attention. If

you do go out. Because you get

scared because you know it is not

going to last forever, it is only a

short period of time. But you know

you are going to go back to being,

becoming an agoraphobic. You get

scared you don't want to go out

because you're scared of going back.

Because you go back to being on your

own.

Was it gradual, or did it just

happened one day?

It was a gradual

build-up. To a terrible situation

for myself. I had a stillborn child.

And my life changed massively.

And... I just ended up on the

streets of Oxford. You are homeless

for a time? Yes, nearly six years.

What helped you to turn your life

around?

Determination. Getting

involved with organisations that

Lewis is involved in. And they bring

your self-confidence back. And

building up self-confidence. It is

very, very difficult.

When did you

first meet and how did you first

start working with Meg?

I were for

Oxford Computer Consultants and we

have a website recruit volunteers to

meet and befriend people like Meg.

One of our volunteers goes to visit

Meg once a fortnight. And he really

likes walking dogs and Meg has two

dogs she finds it difficult to

exercise so the relationship works

really well. And I meet Meg once a

week in Oxford Centre, we meet for a

coffee and a chat on a Wednesday

morning.

That is lovely. What is

your response to what we're hearing

today, that loneliness can be as bad

as or smoking?

Personally, I am a

smoker. I would love to give that

up. And that is something that I am

sure I would be able to do if I

really thought about it. But the

loneliness, you just can't describe

it. You feel like an alien. A

complete alien. It doesn't matter if

somebody says, oh, you look really

good today, you look really well. On

the outside, it is not that, it is

on the inside and it is not

recognised enough. There is not

enough help for people. I felt so

suicidal, so many times, which is an

awful thing to say because I have

had a lot of it in my family. And I

feel guilty for saying that. You do,

you just don't know who to talk to.

Let's bring in our MPs. Rachel

Reeves. And Seema Kennedy, you are

listening to Meg and it is

heartbreaking. If loneliness is as

obesity and smoking and could lead

to premature death, why has the

Government not done more?

I think it

is something people are waking up to

and people used to think it was

normal for everybody to have good

mental health and now we recognise

many people struggle with mental

health and in some ways, loneliness

is similar to that. Jo Cox

understood it and she saw it. But I

think as a society, it is something

we are beginning to recognise. I

hope the work we have done with the

Jo Cox Commission this year has shed

a Spotlight on loneliness and how it

affects the everybody at different

times of their life. Meg's story

very powerful, but there are many

stories from people in all

communities and from all walks of

life who are struggling with the

unbearable pain they have described

loneliness.

Seema Kenedy, can you

sum up your findings and

recommendations?

What we would like

to see, we would like a national

strategy on loneliness. What we are

recognising, it is a problem the

Government needs to act on as well

as civic leaders, local government

and all of us. What we want

government to do is what government

does well. Things like measuring

loneliness. Until now, there has

been measures of loneliness and

isolation in older people, but as

Meg's story tells us and the other

people we will be hearing from I am

sure, it can strike any any

community. Looking at the

interventions and the schemes which

do take place like the befriending

in Oxford, which ones are really

effective? The Government needs to

plot a bit of money into that to

research what works and how we can

replicate that in other parts of the

country.

And who do you think should

be held accountable if those

measures are not put in place,

Rachel Reeves?

In our manifesto we

are publishing today in Batley, we

are calling for the Government's,

the Governor to appoint a Minister

to take forward a strategy of

loneliness. A Minister for

loneliness? Yes, we do not have one

of those today and it needs to be

across departments and the

Department of Health, because of the

health effects of loneliness we are

hearing about, but also, for

Communities and Local Government.

This is something that touches all

parts of government and so we want a

Minister to coordinate that

response, to measure loneliness, as

Seema says, and put in interventions

and measures so there are fewer than

9 million struggling with loneliness

next year and viewer the year after.

This is not something the Godman can

do alone, it relies on human scale,

step-by-step actions of everybody

and single person watching today

will know somebody, if they are

honest, in their lives, on their

street, a family or a friend,

struggling with loneliness,

especially coming up to Christmas.

The Godman needs to play its role

and some do we. I often say if we

all live our lives a bit more like

Jo Cox with tears, the world would

be a kinder and a lot of us lonely

place.

It certainly would be. Why is

this such a widespread societal

problem from the work you have been

doing, Seema?

People have always

been lonely, it is something we have

recognised over the ages. But as we

get more of an ageing society, more

people living on their own, and

among younger people, the rise of

social media is a big driver for

this. I am in my mid-40s and if I

wanted to see my friends after

school, I had to go out and have

human contact with them. And we have

not evolved that much. We need that

heartbeat of another human. Sitting

in your bedroom with a phone, it

could introduce you to somebody, but

you need to make that face-to-face

contact. That is why it is becoming

more of a problem. And also, the

bravery of somebody like Jo, who

spoke about her loneliness when she

went to university, the bravery of

people like Meg who have said, I had

been lonely in my life. Even the

Duchess of Cambridge talked about

how she was lonely as a new mother,

and that is shifting the

conversation and I all so proud of

as parliamentarians to carry on this

important work in Jo's name.

This

requires resources as well as talk,

how much money needs to deal with

this problem affecting 9 million

people in the UK, Rachel?

We are

asking government to put money in

and fund schemes. We have seen

fantastic stuff over the year and in

my own constituency, the work of

Helping the Hands, and a copy

caravan goes to villages in Suffolk

and places people together. Although

the things happening. In Seema's

constituency in Lancashire, there is

a veterans cafe. We need to measure

what works and ensure that people

can access things in all parts of

the country. We are not putting a £

to it, we want the Government to

respond to our manifesto and come

forward with a strategy and money to

help tackle this issue. Whatever

government does, it will not be

enough. Because at the end of the

day, to tackle loneliness, we need

all of us to live our lives a little

bit differently, to make time for

others, but other people first and

take this time over Christmas to

perhaps not on somebody's door and

to find somebody up and go and visit

a relative or neighbour and put

other people first and live your

life it was a bit more like Jo Cox.

Thank you both. Just quickly, your

response. Loneliness, that the

Government strategy, what you make

of what you have just heard?

It

would be a great idea. Loneliness

does not just affect people like Meg

and me, there is everyone in

between. Having somebody to

coordinate and encourage people to

do more, I think, could be really

important.

I think there needs to be

an awful lot more out there to let

lonely people realise that they are

not on their own. Because

loneliness, you isolated. So you do

not believe somebody else feels the

same way as you.

As we know, there

are 9 million people.

More

information, we are going to print

brochures, I can put them in my

local Church. Where I live, I know

there are a lot of elderly people.

People lonely. And if they see it

advertised that there are places you

can go, it will encourage people to

go out.

Thank you for coming in and

sharing your stories.

Let's get the latest weather update.

We have still got snow on the ground

in places, so for some of us this

morning, it was a bit slippery. In

Telford, the snow is still on the

ground from last week. Many waking

up with sunshine. And most of us

today will have a dry and a bright

day. Noticeably colder because we

have air coming in from the Arctic

with the isobars. Weather fronts on

that northerly wind bringing in

showers this morning. Some of those

they bit wintry over the higher

ground of Scotland through the North

Yorkshire Moors and North Pennines.

Into the afternoon, eastern areas

have some showers. More showers into

the far North and North West of

Scotland. For most of Scotland, it

is dry and sunny this afternoon and

Northern Ireland and much of

Northern England. Heavy showers this

morning lightening into the

afternoon. Showers around

Pembrokeshire in Cornwall, but for

much of Wales and the south-west,

into the Midlands, it is looking

sunny. Showers continuing across the

Far East of England. These are the

temperatures on the thermometer, 46

degrees, and it will feel colder

with the northerly wind. This

evening and night, with clear skies,

temperatures falling away pretty

quickly and we expect a widespread

frost to develop into Saturday

morning. Temperatures in towns and

cities at or below freezing. In the

countryside, if you degrees lower.

Boring Saturday morning, we still

have this cold area from the Arctic.

Over the weekend, noticed the

Orange, the mild air spreading in

from the South and West. With that,

more cloud and rain. For the

weekend, Saturday morning, rather

cold and frosty start with sunshine,

but more cloud developing in

Northern Ireland in the North West

England, Wales and the Midlands.

Elsewhere, around that, some

sunshine and quite cold in places,

temperatures two or three degrees

unless colder towards the south-west

because the wind changes. Wind

coming in from the South and West

and with that, these weather systems

moving into the North West. During

Sunday, a very different data

Saturday. What's more cloud around,

heavy rain at at times, turning much

milder as temperatures for many go

up into double figures. And we keep

the mild air as we go into the

beginning of next week. Quite cloudy

for much of next week, mist and fog

patches could be a problem. Lots of

dry weather around, although not

ruling out some rain at at times.

That is it.

It's Friday, it's 10am.

A rape trial collapses after phone

evidence which could have proved

the defendant's innocence two years

ago is finally released to lawyers.

A senior barrister in the case

tells us what happened.

This young man would have been sent

to prison for 12 years and would

have been on the sex offenders

register for the rest of his life,

with precious little chance of

appeal. So, this was a massive,

massive miscarriage of justice,

which thank heavens, was avoided.

EU leaders signal that they're ready

to take Brexit talks

to the next stage and work out

what their relationship with Britain

will look like when we leave.

We will talk about moving onto phase

2, talking about the transition

period and a new relationship that

will exist between the EU and the

UK. I think a lot of thinking needs

to be done about that. It does seem

to be quite divergent opinions on

what that should look like.

It's the Strictly Come Dancing

final tomorrow night,

marking the culmination of twelve

weeks viewing and for many fans

the terrifying thought that it

will soon all be over.

We'll be talking to some well known

Strictly faces and some

of the show's biggest fans

Good morning.

Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news.

A judge has called for an enquiry

after a student was cleared of rape

when police failed to disclose

evidence casting doubt on the case.

22-year-old Liam Allen spent two

years on bail before his trial at

Croydon Crown Court

was halted when it was

revealed his accuser said

the

messages expressing

fantasies about violent sex.

Prosecuting lawyer Jerry Hayes

told the programme this

information did not come to light

until he's pacific we asked police

to give the defence team a list of

the women's phone messages.

I wanted that boy to know as soon as

the decision was made, which I

advised upon, that there should be

no further evidence given.

Obviously, he was happy, but this

has been hanging over his head for

two years. A young man of good

character, he could have had his

life totally trashed. That was

awfully wrong.

EU leaders are expected to formally

agree to start the next phase

of Brexit negotiations later.

Talks on a transition deal

could begin as early as next week.

At a dinner in Brussels last night,

Theresa May was applauded

by her fellow leaders

after stressing her desire

for a "smooth" departure.

Will be live in Brussels in the next

half-hour for the latest.

The Church of England has apologised

to the family of a bishop

for failings in the way it

investigated allegations of child

abuse against him more than 50

years after his death.

George Bell, who died in 1958,

was alleged to have repeatedly

abused a young girl.

She made a formal complaint in 1995

and, 10 years later,

won an apology and compensation

from the Church.

An independent review

of the investigation

is being published this morning.

An inquiry into child sexual abuse

in Australia has made more

than four-hundred recommendations

in its final report.

The Royal Commission --

which spent five years

hearing evidence --

said tens of thousands of children

had been assaulted at more

than four-thousand institutions,

including churches,

orphanages and schools.

Nine million adults in the UK

are chronically lonely,

according to a commission set up

by the MP Jo Cox, before her murder.

Nine million adults in the UK

are chronically lonely,

It says loneliness is as harmful

to health as smoking

15 cigarettes a day,

and calls for a government-led

national strategy to

address the problem.

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10:30.

Thanks for your messages. You been

getting in touch on our sister

fibrosis choir story. Stephanie

says: My sister has cystic fibrosis.

She is only 19 and I know she finds

it isolating not being around others

with cystic fibrosis, because you

are not allowed to meet any other

people with the same condition. She

can never meet her closest friend.

Another viewer says: The choir is a

great idea to help people diagnosed

who sadly can't meet, share their

experiences and offer each other

support. Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning.

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

Here's some sport now

with John Watson.

We will start with cricket. England

are attempting to wrestle back

momentum at the end of day two of

the third test in Perth. This is how

the scorecard looks. England will

roll out of 403. Australia have

closed at 203-3, trailing by 200

runs. This is how the day unfolded.

Jonny Bairstow celebrated his

century and was eventually out for

140. Mallon's 140, England looked

set for refuge score at that stage,

but when he went, the tail soon

followed. Craig Overton in only his

second test. The home fans were

encouraged by Steve Smith's

performance, the home captain. He

closes in on his century. England

with plenty to do going into the

third day.

The wife of Bradley Wiggins has

apologised for comments she made

about Chris Froome on social media

after it emerged that he had been

found to have double the permitted

level of an asthma drug. She called

him a slithering reptile and

suggested he had been protected

while Bradley Wiggins had been under

scrutiny by his use of medication.

She said her comments had been made

in the heat of the moment.

On Sunday, the BBC sports

personality of the year awards will

be handed out in Liverpool. The

overseas personality of the year has

been announced, and it has gone to

Roger Federer. He has had a great

year, winning his eighth Wimbledon

title at the age of 35. He defied

the odds and the injuries to win

Wimbledon and the Australian open at

the turn of the year, taking his

grand slam tally to 19. This is a

record fourth time that he has won

the overseas award.

Imagine your horse, if you have one,

jumping over an obstacle the size of

an Asian elephant. That is exactly

what this person has done. It is the

equivalent height that Laura Renwick

jumped at the Olympia will show in

London. She is riding Top Dollar, in

an event in which the wall gets

higher and higher. She cleared 2.2

metres, which no one else manage.

The horses eight-year-old -- the

horse is an eight-year-old, so even

more impressive.

Ronnie O'Sullivan took power naps at

the Scottish snooker open yesterday.

He said he was totally up for the

count at times. It did the trick,

though, as he went on to win the

match and another in the evening to

reach the quarterfinals. He will

play John Higgins tonight. Whatever

works, I guess! I will be back, wide

awake, later.

A judge in a rape trial has called

for an inquiry at the 'very highest

level' after it emerged that vital

documents which proved

the defendant's innocence were not

disclosed to lawyers.

After being on bail for nearly two

years, 22 year old Liam Allen

was told there was no case

against him at Croydon Crown Court

in South London yesterday.

Liam told us it was overwhelming and

it was hugely confusing to go from

being the bill into being the

innocent. Barrister Jerry Hayes told

us what happened.

This was a very

serious multiple rape case. The

person who made the allegations had

given her evidence. The defence

counsel said to me, have you got a

disc of the downloads from her

telephone? I said I had not seen it

and the CPS had not seen it. I spoke

to the officer who is responsible

for disclosure and asked if he had

it. He said he had but it could not

be disclosed. I asked why and he

said it was very personal matters. I

said, is there anything on that this

which could undermine the

prosecution case or assist the

defence? He said no, but I wasn't

happy about that. I think, and I was

right, that the defence should have

that disc. We adjourned for a day.

The defence saw on this disc

information which completely blew

the prosecution case out of the

window. If they hadn't had that

disclosure, this young man would

have been sent to prison for 12

years, and would have been on the

sex offenders register for the rest

of his life. He would have had

precious little chance of appeal.

So, this was a massive, massive

miscarriage of justice which, thank

heavens, was avoided.

Why do you

think that police repeatedly

insisted that there was nothing of

interest for the prosecution of the

defence?

I don't think they had

looked at it properly. There were

2400 pages and around 50,000 texts.

I don't think they had looked at it.

Police officers sometimes don't

understand that it is their duty to

investigate these matters, to report

it to the CPS and then a CPS lawyer

will contact me and we will decide

what to do with it. There is no

question of lying or misleading,

it's just sheer incompetence, I'm

afraid.

We also heard that to save

costs, material wasn't always handed

to defence lawyers. What is your

response to that?

Is I'm not entirely sure about that.

You have to understand that the CPS

and the police, and all of us in the

criminal justice system, are under

tremendous pressure because we're

running out of money. This is a

system that is not just creaking,

it's about to croak. If we have any

more treasury cutbacks, there will

be more cases like this. Except that

they won't come before people like

you.

We spoke to Liam this morning,

and he said he's not ready to do

interviews yet, but he is so

grateful to you. Can you tell us

about the moment he found out the

trial had collapsed?

I gave him

advice, as soon as we asked for the

jury to be discharged and we had the

information available. I wanted that

Boyd to know as soon as the decision

was made, which I advised upon, that

there should be no further evidence

given. Obviously, he was happy, but

this has been hanging over his head

for two years. A young man of good

character. He could have had his

life totally trashed. That was

awfully wrong.

How concerned argued

that this could be happening in

other cases?