10/01/2018 Victoria Derbyshire


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10/01/2018

Charities who work with drug users in Manchester explain how a new strain of the synthetic drug 'spice' is having a devastating effect on the city.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello.

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It's Wednesday, it's 9am,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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welcome to the programme.

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These men have all taken

spice in Manchester -

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charities tell us a new,

more potent strain of the synthetic

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form of cannabis is having

a devastating impact on drug users.

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He was resuscitated. He went to A&E

and three hours later he was back in

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town buying more spice. That will

give you an indication of how

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serious the addiction is.

That

exclusive report in 15 minutes time.

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If you have used spice or are

affected by people who use it, tell

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us what difference the two year ban

has made? Does the law do enough to

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protect free speech at university?

We will hear from both sides.

People

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are saying will I feel vulnerable?

You will feel uncomfortable,

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vulnerable. Everything will be

scary, guess what, ideas that have

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changed the world historically over

many years have fought racism.

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Plus:

There is more one way than to

be the best. Apply now.

No more of

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your country needs you and be the

best, the Army is changing the way

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it advertising for new recruits. It

is moving to a more emotional style.

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Your reaction to this very welcome -

particularly if you serve

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in the Armed Forces.

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Or if you are an Army family.

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Hello and welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am.

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Throughout the programme we'll bring

you the latest breaking news

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and developing stories and as always

keen to hear from you.

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A little later we'll discuss

the letter written by legendary

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French actor, Catherine Deneuve,

who says men have the right to "hit

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on women" without being

forced out of their jobs.

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In the wake of the Harvey Weinstein

scandal she's one of 100 prominent

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French women to complain

about a new "puritanism".

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Your thoughts welcome,

use the #Victoria LIVE

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and If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today.

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At least 13 people have died

in mudslides and floods

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in southern California.

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At least 163 people have

been taken to hospital

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and hundreds more are trapped.

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Our North America Correspondent,

James Cook reports from Los Angeles.

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The rains came suddenly

just before dawn.

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Torrential and terrifying.

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They coursed over the slick,

scorched earth, gathering speed

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until mud was roaring down

to the sea like an express train.

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The deluge smashed into the very

homes which had just

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survived California's

biggest recorded wildfire.

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The result - utter devastation.

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We had a very difficult time

assessing the area and responding

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to many of those areas

to assist those people.

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The only words I can really

think of to describe

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what it looked like,

was it looked like a

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World War I battlefield.

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The communities hardest hit

were Montecito and Carpentaria

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on the Pacific coast north of

Los Angeles.

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These are some of the most exclusive

neighbourhoods in the United States.

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Home to stars like Oprah Winfrey

and the actor Rob Lowe.

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But no amount of money

could stop this torrent.

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Well, the mud roared down

here with terrifying speed,

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sweeping everything in its path.

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The firefighters won't let us go

up there any further,

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they say the situation could change

in the blink of an eye

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and as you can see, this

is how dangerous it is.

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Rescue workers are still scouring

scores of damaged and demolished

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homes, searching for survivors.

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Police say the number of dead

here is certain to rise.

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Reeta is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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The Army is launching a new

recruitment campaign which

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emphasises the emotional and

physical support given to soldiers.

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A series of radio and online adverts

addresses concerns that potential

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recruits might have. There has been

criticism from some former officers

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who have accused the Army of bowing

to political correctness.

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The new ads pose

a series of questions.

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Growing up, I really had my heart

set on joining the army.

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Another reassures would-be

recruits that religious

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faith will be respected.

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The Army embraces the fact that

you can come from a different faith.

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Even on exercise, there's always

a quiet moment to go into a cabin

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and just sort of find a little

corner and do your prayers there.

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Recruiting for the Army

is a constant battle.

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Every year, for seven years now,

more soldiers have left

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the Army than signed up.

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There's a lot of internal debate

about how best it should be done.

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I love the idea of the Army...

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The Army says its belonging

campaign has already sparked

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a significant surge in interest,

but others say this

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new series of ads panders

to to political correctness

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and the so-called

"snowflake generation."

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Last month, the new Defence

Gavin Williamson, halted plans

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to ditch the Army's Be the Best

slogan which has been

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used for decades.

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An internal report had

claimed it was datist,

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elitist and non-inclusive.

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This new campaign does include

the slogan, but it's not given

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the prominence it once had.

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100 well-known French women have

signed an open letter

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defending the right of men

to make sexual advances.

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The actress Catherine Deneuve is one

of the signatories who say

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the recent wave of denunciations

of sexual harassment

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following the Harvey Weinstein

affair is creating a new feminism

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defined by hatred

of men and sexuality.

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In the open letter published

in Le Monde, the women say

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there is a new puritanism

afoot in the world.

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Passengers on Thameslink,

Southern and Great Northern services

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have suffered the worst disruption

of any rail franchise according

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to a highly critical report.

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The Government's spending watchdog,

the National Audit Office,

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says the country's largest rail

operator has failed

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to provide value for money.

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It also criticises

the Department for Transport.

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Our Business correspondent,

Theo Leggett reports.

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Thameslink, Southern and great

northern are the large of largest of

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Britain's rail services. It provides

services along the South Coast and

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into London. Since 2016 the company

has been embroiled in a bitter

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dispute with the RMT union, over its

plans to use trains on which the

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driver, rather than the conductor,

is in charge of opening and dlosing

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the doors. Over the past two years,

there have been regular strikes on

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Southern Rail ways trains. This

week, great northern services have

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also been affected. In fact,

according to the National Audit

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Office, since it was created, the

franchise as experienced worst

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disruption than any other part of

the network. 146,000 trains have

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been cancelled, or delayed for more

than half an hour since July 2015.

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That's 7.7% of services. Across the

UK as a whole, the figure is 2.8%.

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The report claims that although most

of the delays were down to

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industrial action, the Department

for Transport should shoulder some

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of the blame. When it awarded the

franchise, it didn't check that

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Govia had enough drivers and didn't

pay enough attention to the possible

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impact of industrial action and

wasn't aware of poor state of the

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network. All that means the

Government has not been

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getting value more money. A new

strain of spice has emerged in

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Manchester in the last few weeks.

Charities who work with drug users

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in the city say the illegal drug is

causing devastation and even death

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among the homeless community. Spice

was previously known as oning of the

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so-called legal highs before being

banned along with other substances

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in May 2016.

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The Chancellor, Philip Hammond,

and the Brexit Secretary,

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David Davis, have told a German

newspaper that any trade deal

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with the EU must include

the financial services industry.

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The two Cabinet Ministers will make

separate visits to meet business

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leaders in Germany today,

where they will both stress

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the importance of not erecting

new barriers to trade.

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A body has been found in a garden

after a woman walked into a police

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station and told officers she had

killed and buried a man

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"a number of years ago".

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Greater Manchester Police

confirmed that human remains

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have been discovered

at a house near Stockport.

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A 63-year-old woman has been

arrested on suspicion of murder.

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A 16-year old boy will appear

in court today charged

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with the murder of a shop assistant

in north London.

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Vijay Patel was attacked in a row

over the sale of cigarette papers

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outside his shop in Mill Hill

on Saturday night.

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He later died in hospital.

0:09:160:09:24

New measures to clamp down on

plastic waste are to be extended by

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the Government. Retailers with fewer

than 250 staff are exempted from the

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levy. The idea is part of a 25 year

plan to improve the environment. All

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retailers in Scotland and Wales are

already required to charge for

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plastic bags.

0:09:440:09:47

The search for Malaysia Airlines

flight MH370 will resume today,

0:09:470:09:52

nearly a year after efforts

to locate the plane

0:09:520:09:54

were officially suspended.

0:09:540:09:56

The search for the aircraft,

which went missing with 239 people

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on board in March 2014,

was the largest in aviation history.

0:09:580:10:01

It will now be resumed

by a an American company

0:10:010:10:03

using unmanned submarines.

0:10:030:10:11

A Japanese astronaut has

apologised after claiming he'd

0:10:130:10:16

grown 9cm since arriving

at the International Space

0:10:160:10:18

Station three weeks ago.

0:10:180:10:20

Nori-shige Kanai said

he had in fact grown 2cm -

0:10:200:10:23

and blamed a measurement error.

0:10:230:10:25

His original claim sparked

global fascination among

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social media users.

0:10:270:10:35

Astronauts can grow

between 2cm to 5cm in space

0:10:350:10:37

because the lack of gravity

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allows vertebrae in

their spines to expand.

0:10:380:10:42

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News. More at 9.30am. Thank you,

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Reeta. Anthony on Facebook, we will

bring you a film, which shows there

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is a dangerous strain of spice

circulating on the streets of

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Manchester. This is despite the fact

that spice was banned a couple of

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years ago. Anthony says, "When it

was the so-called legal high, and

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available in shops, we didn't see

the same problems. Maybe this is the

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reason to legalise some drugs,

control what's in them, the strength

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and put a tax on them at the same

time." Scottie on Facebook says,

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"The war on drugs created the market

for spice." One viewer tweets this,

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"Just one time, that's all it takes

to go wrong. People don't listen."

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Ebony says, "Stop the dealers

approaching them and get them locked

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up. No dealers, equals no spice."

Get in touch if you have used spice

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or affected by people who use it.

Let me know your experience and what

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the difference has been since the

ban on legal highs came into this

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country.

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There was almost a great result for

Bristol City?

Yes, two minutes.

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That's how close Bristol City came

to holding high flying Manchester

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City. That's in the first leg of

their League Cup semifinal, the

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runaway Premier League leaders

needed a stoppage time winner from

0:12:080:12:13

Sergio Aguero for their 2-1 win at

home and Bristol City boss Lee

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Johnson believes his team can still

topple City when they come to Ashton

0:12:180:12:22

Gate in a fortnight. Pep Guardiola

was full of praise for how Bristol

0:12:220:12:28

City approached the game. The

visitors led before the break. A

0:12:280:12:33

strong City side was named and after

the break, City were level and just

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when you thought that the under dogs

would leave with a draw and away

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goal, Aguero popped up to score

their winner in stoppage time.

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Wow, there is always Aguero there.

Now this growing feud between Jose

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Mourinho and Conti carries on,

doesn't it?

It does, indeed. He

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seems to be feuding with anybody,

really, Victoria. Victoria we are

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talking about Jose Mourinho, the

Manchester United boss, ahead of the

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match. There is not much love lost

between him and any other manager

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and in particular Conti. This is the

to and froa starting in 2016 when

0:13:180:13:24

Jose Mourinho was back at Stamford

Bridge with Manchester United. They

0:13:240:13:29

were hammered 4-0 by Chelsea.

Chelsea and Conti celebrated wildly

0:13:290:13:36

and Jose Mourinho was furious and

hit out. This back and forth thing

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continued. Conti hit back in

November, questioning Jose

0:13:390:13:45

Mourinho's selection and Victor

Moses who went on to play a big part

0:13:450:13:49

in Chelsea's title winning season.

Plenty more digs and last July it

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got personal, Jose Mourinho claiming

that Conti had a hair transplant. On

0:13:560:14:02

Saturday, he called Jose Mourinho a

little man after some jibes about

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Conti's match-fixing suspension.

This is what Chelsea boss had to say

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yesterday.

This looks a person

that's great, I don't think so. But

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I think we both said things and we

will see what happens in the future.

0:14:210:14:25

I think that he said a series of

words and used serious words and I

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won't forget this. This is not a

problem from the club. This is a

0:14:360:14:42

problem between me and him. I stop.

Stop.

Let's cheer ourselves up from

0:14:420:14:50

the feud, shall we? Nottingham

Forest FA Cup hero on Sunday was

0:14:500:14:57

Eric. He scored twice to knockout

Arsenal. This is his present. His

0:14:570:15:03

wife Catherine said they could get a

dog if he scored a hat-trick. He

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only got two on Sunday! It was a

special two. Everyone on social

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media agreed it was good enough and

this is them.

What are they,

0:15:110:15:20

Labradors or spaniels?

Guess what he

called them?

I missed that

Gunner!

0:15:200:15:27

For knocking out Arsenal.

It could

have been a pug. More from Sarah

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throughout the morning.

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People who work with drug users

in Manchester have told this

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programme they're concerned there's

a strong new strain of a synthetic

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form of cannabis known as Spice -

and it's having a devastating impact

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on those who use it.

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Spice was banned along with other

psychoactive substances known then

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as so-called "legal highs" in May

2016 - but critics say that ban

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hasn't made it any harder to get

hold of but instead has put it

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into the hands of drug dealers.

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Spice was officially linked to 27

deaths in 2016 but many

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believe the true figure

could be much higher.

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Experts have told us that some

strains are so strong taking

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it is like playing Russian Roulette

and putting a loaded

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gun to your head.

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Our reporter John Owen has spent

some time in Manchester.

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I mean, I smoke half an ounce a day.

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It's early evening in

Piccadilly Gardens on the edge

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of Manchester's Northern Quarter.

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Outside the chain stores and fast

food restaurants men and women

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are collapsed in doorways,

slumped forward or

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slurring incoherently.

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These are the human consequences

of the potent psychoactive

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substance known as Spice.

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A highly addictive synthetic

cannabinoid that has taken a cruel

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toll on the homeless community here.

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And now two front line charities

have expressed fears that

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a new and much stronger strain may

have entered circulation,

0:17:370:17:42

with potentially

life-threatening consequences.

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So-called legal highs like Spice

were made illegal in May of 2016.

0:17:460:17:50

But it's clear that among the rough

sleeper and homeless communities

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here, they are as prevalent as ever.

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Almost everybody we speak to has

a story to tell about Spice.

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They describe how it compounds

the already intensely complex lives

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of people stranded on the streets.

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About how it's being pushed by gangs

of unscrupulous dealers

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preying on desperation.

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And about how for people living

through winter on the streets,

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its most valuable effect is numbness

and its ability to pass the time.

0:18:150:18:20

It's very, very unusual to find

a young person who is Street

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homeless in the city centre

of Manchester, who

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isn't taking Spice.

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I would say between 95 and 98%

of those young street homeless

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people are smoking Spice

on some level.

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Far from any perception that these

are soft drugs like cannabis,

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these chemicals are,

in fact, extremely

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dangerous, often leading

to hospitalisation, even death.

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It's almost like putting

a loaded gun to your head

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and playing Russian roulette.

0:18:450:18:48

An organisation here

that's distributing food

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to the rough sleeping community.

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As you walk past, you can

really smell that very

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distinctive Spice smell.

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It's almost an acrid,

really chemical smell,

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and it's all around that area

where the food is being distributed.

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Manchester Metropolitan University

is one of the only facilities

0:19:110:19:15

in the country licensed to test

new psychoactive

0:19:150:19:17

substances like Spice.

0:19:170:19:19

Dr Oliver Sutcliffe is one

of the UK's foremost

0:19:190:19:21

authorities on the drug.

0:19:210:19:24

He explained that the samples

they test vary widely

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in their potency, but that the most

recent generation are by far

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the strongest they've seen.

0:19:290:19:32

We've seen probably a couple

of hundred different

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variations that have appeared.

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And the most recent ones,

the third-generation

0:19:370:19:41

synthetic cannabinoids,

which have been classified

0:19:410:19:44

in the UK, they are significantly

more potent than the other previous

0:19:440:19:47

generations that have been seen.

0:19:470:19:52

He went on to say that since the ban

there was no way to tell in advance

0:19:520:19:56

how strong any given strain

of Spice is.

0:19:560:19:58

Historically, before the ban,

the samples used to come in packets

0:19:580:20:03

which were very brightly

manufactured, collared,

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they were manufactured

very professionally,

0:20:070:20:09

they had information

on the back of them.

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They seemed to demonstrate some idea

of what was actually in the samples.

0:20:120:20:17

Now what you are seeing now

on the street are samples

0:20:170:20:20

that look like this,

and they are all in very

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nondescript snap bags,

so there's no way to discriminate

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between product to product,

and because of that you don't know

0:20:260:20:29

potentially what synthetic

cannabinoid you've got present

0:20:290:20:31

in the sample, but also,

you don't know how strong they are.

0:20:310:20:39

Oliver's MMU colleague, Dr Rob

Ralph, agrees that a ban hasn't

0:20:420:20:45

helped to reduce the problem,

as dealers exchange small quantities

0:20:450:20:47

of Spice for the money that

users have been able

0:20:470:20:50

to raise whilst begging.

0:20:500:20:51

Now it's actually easier to access

Spice than it was before.

0:20:510:20:53

Dealers will actually

come up now we're here.

0:20:530:20:55

Homeless people say they've been

woken up in the morning by dealers,

0:20:550:20:58

waking them up, giving them

a bag or two.

0:20:580:21:00

And then they come back a few hours

later, when they've managed

0:21:000:21:03

to earn some money begging,

and get the money from them.

0:21:030:21:06

So it's actually easier now

than before for psychotic

0:21:060:21:08

substances, to actually access it.

0:21:080:21:12

Amongst the samples that

Manchester Metropolitan University

0:21:120:21:14

has received for testing

from police, the strength

0:21:140:21:15

of cannabinoids being smoked

on the street seems

0:21:150:21:17

to have stabilised recently.

0:21:170:21:25

But speaking to people who are daily

interactions with Spice users,

0:21:250:21:27

there are fears that a stronger

strain may now have

0:21:270:21:30

re-entered circulation.

0:21:300:21:31

At Life Share, a charity that works

with vulnerable young people,

0:21:310:21:34

Julie has been seeing the effects

of this drug up close for some time.

0:21:340:21:37

And she has no doubt

that the strength of what's

0:21:370:21:39

being smoked has increased

in recent weeks.

0:21:390:21:41

It's horrendous.

0:21:410:21:43

We got people coming

in absolutely white as a ghost.

0:21:430:21:45

They can't string

a sentence together.

0:21:450:21:47

We've had a young lad who actually

died outside in an alleyway.

0:21:470:21:50

We put him into an ambulance,

he was resuscitated.

0:21:500:21:52

He went to A&E, three

hours later, he was back

0:21:520:21:54

in town buying more Spice.

0:21:540:21:56

So it's dying doesn't put

people off, that will give

0:21:560:21:58

you an indication of how serious

the addiction is.

0:21:580:22:00

So that guy, in that case,

he was medically dead?

0:22:000:22:03

Yeah, medically dead.

0:22:030:22:04

And he was lucky enough to be

resuscitated and he went

0:22:040:22:06

to buy more Spice?

0:22:060:22:07

Yeah.

0:22:070:22:08

Yeah.

0:22:080:22:09

That's how scary it is.

0:22:090:22:11

And that's one of, you know,

I could name a number of incidents.

0:22:110:22:14

We've had people woken up things

happening around the back end

0:22:140:22:16

of them that they weren't aware of.

0:22:160:22:18

We have had people who have

been gang raped, people

0:22:180:22:20

forced into sex work.

0:22:200:22:21

And this new strain,

you could literally be

0:22:210:22:23

talking to somebody,

and you turn around and they're

0:22:230:22:26

just literally gone.

0:22:260:22:27

They're not there.

0:22:270:22:28

Obviously we make sure

they are breathing, but an hour

0:22:280:22:30

later they are all back to normal.

0:22:300:22:32

In your mind that all very clear

evidence that there is a new,

0:22:320:22:35

more potent strain around

the streets at the moment?

0:22:350:22:37

Yeah, absolutely, because we deal

with 16 to 25-year-old

0:22:370:22:39

young homeless people.

0:22:390:22:40

We see the Spice addiction

on a daily basis.

0:22:400:22:42

It's normally quite a bonding

experience, being around

0:22:420:22:44

the homeless community.

0:22:440:22:45

But the ones who are on Spice,

we find now, will steal from each

0:22:450:22:49

other, they will beat each other up.

0:22:490:22:50

It's just completely changes

the whole persona of people.

0:22:500:22:53

But this one around at the minute

is really, really worrying.

0:22:530:22:57

Back on the streets we spoke

to one man who didn't

0:22:570:22:59

want his face to be shown.

0:22:590:23:02

He told us that after taking

a drag on what he thought

0:23:020:23:05

was an ordinary roll-up,

you completely lost

0:23:050:23:07

control for several hours.

0:23:070:23:08

The tobacco had been mixed with

an ultra-strong strain of Spice.

0:23:080:23:16

And that was after just

a couple of drags?

0:23:160:23:19

Just one.

0:23:190:23:20

One.

0:23:200:23:21

One pull.

0:23:210:23:22

One pull?

0:23:220:23:23

One pull, yeah.

0:23:230:23:24

And you'll just

completely out of it?

0:23:240:23:25

I was out of it for five hours.

0:23:250:23:27

I couldn't get myself back.

0:23:270:23:29

Really?

0:23:290:23:30

That must have been

really scary, was it?

0:23:300:23:32

It was, yeah, yeah.

0:23:320:23:33

Yeah.

0:23:330:23:34

Like almost everyone else

we spoke to, he also told us

0:23:340:23:36

about individuals who he believes

had lost their lives

0:23:360:23:38

as a direct result of the drug.

0:23:380:23:40

The most recent official figures say

that in 2016 there were just 27

0:23:400:23:48

cases in which synthetic

cannabinoids were mentioned on death

0:23:480:23:50

certificates in England and Wales.

0:23:500:23:51

But many suspect the real figure

could be much higher.

0:23:510:23:54

We spoke to to Risha.

0:23:540:23:55

And as we spoke, she pointed out

several Spice dealers

0:23:550:23:57

and users in the square.

0:23:570:24:01

Yes, I've known people who you

suspect have died taking Spice.

0:24:010:24:04

But because the medical professions

don't know what's in it,

0:24:040:24:06

they can't pinpoint that

as a cause of death.

0:24:060:24:09

They have to say that the thing

that's actually killed them

0:24:090:24:12

is their heart has stopped,

or pneumonia or something like that.

0:24:120:24:15

So that's on the cause of death.

0:24:150:24:17

We knew a particular

gentleman who is alcoholic,

0:24:170:24:20

and he was passed a joint.

0:24:200:24:22

He didn't realise Spice was in it.

0:24:220:24:26

He took a couple of puffs

and fell to the ground.

0:24:260:24:29

And he ended up dying a week later.

0:24:290:24:31

They had to turn the

life-support machine off.

0:24:310:24:35

One particular gentleman,

who we have known for a very long

0:24:350:24:38

time, is now in a nursing home.

0:24:380:24:45

He can't talk, can't sort of get up,

he can't live his own life,

0:24:450:24:48

through taking Spice.

0:24:480:24:49

Spice can sometimes stop

time and take you away

0:24:490:24:51

from the circumstances that

you are within.

0:24:510:24:53

Sometimes I can't blame people

for wanting to get away

0:24:530:24:55

from the desperate situation

they are in.

0:24:550:24:58

And it's having

a devastating effect.

0:24:580:25:06

I've seen people who can,

I can have a chat with and speak

0:25:110:25:14

to, and they're really coherent,

just take such a nosedive

0:25:140:25:16

and their health has deteriorated

so much that I'm scared they might

0:25:160:25:19

die on the streets.

0:25:190:25:20

It's awful.

0:25:200:25:28

It remains far from clear how many

people have died from using Spice.

0:25:300:25:34

But evidence of this drug leaving

ruined lives in its wake

0:25:340:25:37

is all too abundant here.

0:25:370:25:40

And the fact is that these chemicals

and their physiological effect

0:25:400:25:43

on users are poorly understood.

0:25:430:25:46

Manchester is far from

unique in this respect.

0:25:460:25:53

But conditions here can only be

described as epidemic.

0:25:530:25:55

With strains like the one now said

to be at large in Manchester,

0:25:550:25:58

it's hard to believe that more lives

won't be destroyed before

0:25:580:26:01

the situation is reversed.

0:26:010:26:09

Really keen to hear from you -

if you've used Spice or you're

0:26:090:26:12

affected by people who do use it -

has the legislation

0:26:120:26:14

banning it worked?

0:26:140:26:16

Do get in touch in the usual ways.

0:26:160:26:20

We have had a text message from

Carol who says she is a probation

0:26:200:26:24

officer in London, she's not sure

why it's trying comparisons to

0:26:240:26:29

cannabis because it vastly different

and has much more devastating

0:26:290:26:32

effects. Cannabis is a relatively

safe drug with minimum long-term

0:26:320:26:37

effects on users compared to alcohol

and Spice. Hence why cannabis has

0:26:370:26:42

been realised in many American

states. Spice has horrendous effects

0:26:420:26:48

causing temporary paralysis, heart

problems and psychotic episodes. I

0:26:480:26:52

have had clients in their 20s, says

Carol, who have had heart attacks

0:26:520:26:57

after taking Spice. I have also had

clients say that when it was legal

0:26:570:27:01

prison officers would bring it into

the jail for them and that is why

0:27:010:27:04

the offenders got addicted to it. I

have multiple offenders who have

0:27:040:27:09

entered prison having never tried

Spice only to come out with a

0:27:090:27:13

serious addiction to it. It's a

horrendous drug and something

0:27:130:27:18

drastic needs to be done to educate

people on the dangers and get it off

0:27:180:27:21

the streets. And Julia on e-mail

says Spice is more readily available

0:27:210:27:27

and cheaper than cannabis and that

is an outrage. Why can't the

0:27:270:27:31

government follow the lead of

Amsterdam and either legalise

0:27:310:27:34

cannabis or create exemptions for

the use of cannabis and bring in

0:27:340:27:38

cafe shops like Amsterdam and

regulate them as well as collecting

0:27:380:27:40

tax on them. We will talk more about

Spice and the effect of this new

0:27:400:27:47

strain, more dangerous strain on

users on the streets of Manchester

0:27:470:27:51

in the second hour of the programme.

Really interesting to hear from

0:27:510:27:55

people like Carol who is a probation

officer and comes across the effects

0:27:550:27:58

of this drug. If you have relevant

experience let me know, get in touch

0:27:580:28:02

on the e-mail, and we will feed that

into the conversation.

0:28:020:28:08

The trial continues of former

Crewe Alexandra and Man City

0:28:080:28:10

football coach Barry Bennell.

0:28:100:28:11

The 63-year-old is accused of 48

counts of child sexual abuse

0:28:110:28:14

against 11 complainants,

who were aged between eight and 14

0:28:140:28:17

at the time of the alleged offences.

0:28:170:28:22

Every day on this programme

at around this time we'll be

0:28:220:28:24

bringing you up to date

with the evidence in court.

0:28:240:28:27

We can speak now to our sports news

reporter, David Ornstein,

0:28:270:28:30

who's outside Liverpool Crown Court.

0:28:300:28:35

David, tell us what happened

yesterday?

Victoria yesterday was

0:28:350:28:42

essentially the first day of this

trial, Barry Bennell is facing now

0:28:420:28:46

known as Richard Jones. The

prosecuting barrister set out the

0:28:460:28:51

case against Barry Bennell and he

appeared on video link winning a

0:28:510:28:56

grey jumper and he is now known as

Richard Jones. Mr Johnson QC

0:28:560:29:04

described Barry Bennell as a

predatory and determined paedophile

0:29:040:29:08

with pretty much unfettered access

to young boys dreaming of life in

0:29:080:29:12

professional football who had the

particular predilection to

0:29:120:29:18

prepubescent boys and is alleged to

have abused one boy on more than 100

0:29:180:29:23

occasions. Victoria the jury were

told that Barry Bennell worked as a

0:29:230:29:28

youth coach in Cheshire, Manchester

and Derbyshire in the late 70s and

0:29:280:29:33

early 1990s. The jury would hear

evidence over this eight-week trial

0:29:330:29:38

that concerned allegations against

Barry Bennell by boys in England and

0:29:380:29:41

Wales and also the United States and

that Mr Bennell had served prison

0:29:410:29:47

sentences in both jurisdictions.

They will hear that some of the

0:29:470:29:51

abuse took place at the ground of

Crewe Alexandra where he was a coach

0:29:510:29:57

and on tours and that many incidents

occurred at his home. While he was a

0:29:570:30:03

skilled and relatively successful

football coach though was a much

0:30:030:30:06

darker side. The jury were told that

while listening to the evidence they

0:30:060:30:12

must decide whether this is a group

of men, the alleged victims, are a

0:30:120:30:20

group of men that Barry Bennell says

are jumping on the bandwagon and

0:30:200:30:24

making up false and malicious

allegations for financial gain,

0:30:240:30:30

essentially compensation, or if this

is a series of serious allegations

0:30:300:30:34

by Ed Davey is paedophile against a

very vulnerable lads.

What are we

0:30:340:30:40

expecting today?

Today we expect to

hear from the first witness, Barry

0:30:400:30:48

Bennell is 63 years old, we should

remember, and faces 48 charges of

0:30:480:30:54

sexual abuse involving 11 alleged

victims between eight and 14. The

0:30:540:31:00

date ranges between 1979 and 1991.

Before the trial started Barry

0:31:000:31:06

Bennell redid guilty to seven

charges involving three boys aged

0:31:060:31:12

between 11 and 14 between 1981 and

1991. He is not here in person

0:31:120:31:17

because of ill-health we are told.

He is fed through a chip. But if he

0:31:170:31:22

is to give evidence he will need to

attend court and as I said it is

0:31:220:31:26

expected to last eight weeks, this

trial.

David Ornstein outside

0:31:260:31:31

Liverpool Crown Court. Thank you.

0:31:310:31:33

The trial continues.

0:31:330:31:34

We'll bring you coverage of that

trial every day on this programme.

0:31:340:31:42

An investigation into the death of a

baby girl in Nottingham has

0:31:420:31:46

concluded that her death was

preventible. Do university students

0:31:460:31:50

need to be protected from free

speech on their cam us? MPs are

0:31:500:31:54

going to be discussing the issue

today. We'll hear from both sides.

0:31:540:32:00

Time for the latest

news, here's Reeta.

0:32:000:32:03

The BBC News headlines this morning:

0:32:030:32:06

At least 13 people have died

in flash floods and mudslides

0:32:060:32:08

in southern California.

0:32:080:32:12

Witnesses say torrents raged

through the streets and boulders

0:32:120:32:14

the size of cars rolled

down the hillsides.

0:32:140:32:16

Hundreds of people remain

trapped in their homes.

0:32:160:32:18

Emergency services said

they expected the number

0:32:180:32:19

of deaths to rise.

0:32:190:32:25

The Army is launching

a new recruitment campaign

0:32:250:32:32

which emphasises the "emotional

and physical support"

0:32:320:32:33

given to soldiers.

A series of radio, television

0:32:330:32:35

and online adverts addresses

concerns potential recruits might

0:32:350:32:37

have about issues such

as their sexuality or religion.

0:32:370:32:39

There's been criticism

from some former officers,

0:32:390:32:41

who've accused the army of bowing

to political correctness.

0:32:410:32:44

But the Ministry of Defence

says its "belonging campaign" has

0:32:440:32:47

already sparked significant

from people interested

0:32:470:32:48

in joining up.

0:32:480:32:54

100 well-known French women have

signed an open letter

0:32:540:32:57

defending the right of men

to make sexual advances.

0:32:570:33:02

The actress Catherine Deneuve is one

of the signatories who say

0:33:020:33:05

the recent wave of denunciations

of sexual harassment

0:33:050:33:07

following the Harvey Weinstein

affair is creating a new feminism

0:33:070:33:09

defined by hatred

of men and sexuality.

0:33:090:33:11

In the open letter published

in Le Monde, the women say

0:33:110:33:14

there is a new puritanism afoot

in the world.

0:33:140:33:21

Passengers on Thameslink,

Southern and Great Northern services

0:33:210:33:22

have suffered the worst disruption

of any rail franchise according

0:33:220:33:25

to a highly critical report.

0:33:250:33:33

The National Audit Office says the

country's largest rail operator has

0:33:340:33:38

failed to provide value for money.

It says industrial action has been a

0:33:380:33:42

major factor for delays, but the

Department for Transport has also

0:33:420:33:45

made decision which have negatively

impacted on passengers. The

0:33:450:33:49

Government has admitted the

disruption has been unacceptable and

0:33:490:33:51

has called on the RMT union to end

what it calls needless strike

0:33:510:33:55

action.

0:33:550:34:00

New measures to clamp down

on plastic waste are to be

0:34:010:34:03

announced by the government.

0:34:030:34:04

They include the extension

of the five-pence charge on plastic

0:34:040:34:07

bags to all shops in England.

0:34:070:34:08

Retailers with fewer

than 250 staff are currently

0:34:080:34:10

exempted from the levy.

0:34:100:34:11

The idea is part of a 25-year plan

to improve the environment.

0:34:110:34:14

All retailers in Scotland and Wales

are already required

0:34:140:34:16

to charge for plastic bags.

0:34:160:34:24

Here's some sport now with Sarah.

0:34:270:34:29

Bristol City were two minutes away

from holding Premier League leaders

0:34:290:34:31

Manchester City in the first leg

of their League Cup semifinal.

0:34:310:34:35

The sides were level at 1-1 before

Sergio Aguero popped up in stoppage

0:34:350:34:38

time to give Pep Guardiola's side

a slim advantage going

0:34:380:34:41

into the second leg

at Ashton Gate in a fortnight.

0:34:410:34:45

The war of words continues between

Antonio Conte and Jose Mourinho.

0:34:450:34:51

The Chelsea boss called Mourinhno

a "little man" and says

0:34:510:34:53

"he won't forget this"

after the Manchester United manager

0:34:530:34:56

brought up Conte's "match-fixing

suspension" last weekend.

0:34:560:34:59

And England prop Joe Marler

will miss the first two Six Nations

0:34:590:35:03

games after being

suspended for six weeks.

0:35:030:35:11

And that's your sports headlines.

0:35:120:35:15

Baby Harriet Hawkins was born, dead,

at Nottingham City Hospital

0:35:150:35:18

on 17th April 2016.

0:35:180:35:23

She died as a result of a mismanaged

labour and an independent

0:35:230:35:26

investigation has just concluded

that her death was "almost

0:35:260:35:28

certainly preventable".

0:35:280:35:31

Harriet's father Jack

is a hospital consultant.

0:35:310:35:34

Her mother Sarah is

a senior physiotherapist.

0:35:340:35:37

Both work for the hospital

trust responsible for

0:35:370:35:39

the death of their baby -

their first child.

0:35:390:35:44

Since that day, the couple have

campaigned to force the Trust

0:35:440:35:47

to acknowledge it made mistakes,

mistakes which they believed

0:35:470:35:49

had been covered up.

0:35:490:35:52

You might remember them

telling us such last year,

0:35:520:35:54

but it has taken almost two years

for an independent report to reach

0:35:540:35:57

the same conclusion.

0:35:570:36:02

Sarah had been in

labour for six days.

0:36:020:36:05

The couple had made ten phone

calls and two visits

0:36:050:36:08

to the hospital.

0:36:080:36:09

By the time she was finally admitted

in the late stages of labour,

0:36:090:36:12

their daughter had died.

0:36:120:36:13

It took another nine hours before

Sarah was able to give birth.

0:36:130:36:21

Sarah Hawkins is here

and so as Jack.

0:36:270:36:29

We can speak to them both now

and their solicitor, Janet Baker.

0:36:290:36:33

How did you respond?

It was a

mixture of feelings really. It was

0:36:330:36:37

relief to actually be heard and for

there to be official acknowledgement

0:36:370:36:42

that, you know, Harriet's death was

almost certainly preventible. It was

0:36:420:36:47

just brilliant to be, for the

external rerue team to be open and

0:36:470:36:52

honest and transparent and that's

all we had asked from anyone since

0:36:520:36:55

Harriet died. But obviously with

that, it brings great sadness

0:36:550:36:59

because as you say it is a trust we

work for. Minutes after Harriet's

0:36:590:37:03

death all we had been saying, there

were problems, they hadn't been open

0:37:030:37:07

and they hadn't been honest or

transparent and we wouldn't be sats

0:37:070:37:10

here today if they had and it was,

it is just... It's, it has been a

0:37:100:37:17

very hard time.

How did you respond,

Jack?

Really very much the same.

0:37:170:37:25

It's very difficult when you know

the truth and other people are

0:37:250:37:30

telling you that you've got it

wrong. It feels like we've been

0:37:300:37:34

accused of lying. I think it is

worth mentioning that nobody from

0:37:340:37:39

the hospital has listened to our

story which we've made copious notes

0:37:390:37:44

on at the time. Nobody has sat down

and said, "What actually happened?"

0:37:440:37:49

What they have done is listened to

reports from other members of staff

0:37:490:37:53

involved in her case that don't

match with reality and that's, so

0:37:530:37:59

it's been very tough, but having

this report, I mean it gives

0:37:590:38:04

Nottingham no further opportunity to

try and wriggle out of what actually

0:38:040:38:10

happened. We are deeply concerned

that in the 21 months or so since

0:38:100:38:14

Harriet died the problems have

persisted and they shouldn't and

0:38:140:38:17

they didn't need to.

OK, we'll talk

about that in a moment.

0:38:170:38:22

It is worth reminding our audience

that initially the hospital did its

0:38:220:38:28

own internal investigation without

your involvement.

Correct.

And

0:38:280:38:32

concluded that staff made no errors

and that Harriet had died from an

0:38:320:38:35

infection. You know a bit about

infections Jack, don't you, so you

0:38:350:38:40

were able to challenge that and the

pathologist's report, saying that

0:38:400:38:46

had there been an infection serious

enough to kill Harriet you would

0:38:460:38:49

have been extremely unwell as her

mother and probably required

0:38:490:38:53

intensive care treatment. Also for

the benefit of our audience, an

0:38:530:38:57

external review was carried out by a

medical professional who the trust

0:38:570:39:01

then offered a job to and the draft

report she had done said Harriet's

0:39:010:39:05

death was contributed to by five

things. When you got the final

0:39:050:39:10

report, it had been changed to say

what?

That Harriet's death might

0:39:100:39:15

have been prevented, but certainly,

might. So...

Might have been

0:39:150:39:20

avoided.

Thank you. We felt, so we

thought that directly contributed to

0:39:200:39:25

by was only just strong enough

anyway, but it was a definite

0:39:250:39:30

improvement on the internal report,

but might, I am afraid is political

0:39:300:39:36

speak.

I think the thing there is

between the draft and the final

0:39:360:39:40

report, it was only given for

factual accuracy change and that's

0:39:400:39:45

not a factual accuracy change.

And

we asked the hospital to change it

0:39:450:39:48

back and they said it is not our

policy to change back reports and we

0:39:480:39:54

ask them to explain why it had

changed and they never responded.

I

0:39:540:39:57

want to ask you about the impact of

your baby's death on you since then?

0:39:570:40:06

It is so hard to put into words. I

don't think we have been able to

0:40:060:40:10

grieve yet because we have had this

fight. All we have asked for is to

0:40:100:40:14

be listened to and for the trust to

be open. We want Harriet, you know,

0:40:140:40:18

to be worth something and for an

improvement into the safety of their

0:40:180:40:24

service, that was all we were asking

and we didn't get that and we

0:40:240:40:27

haven't got answers. We've got

apologies, but apologies don't bring

0:40:270:40:31

back our dead daughter.

We're not

sure what they're apologising for

0:40:310:40:35

either. It feels like a platitude

rather than a direct apology about

0:40:350:40:40

the various problems that we have

faced with them.

That's the

0:40:400:40:42

statement that I have from the Chief

Executive of Nottingham university

0:40:420:40:46

Hospitals trust trust. I offer my

deepest sympathy to Sarah and

0:40:460:40:56

deepest sympathy to Sarah and Jack

for the stress of their death

0:40:560:40:58

daughter Harriet caused them. It is

likely that Harriet would have

0:40:580:41:02

survived had it not been for several

shortcomings in care. Why do you say

0:41:020:41:05

it is a platitude from your point of

view?

We are disturbed that the

0:41:050:41:10

report said almost certainly and

that the Chief Executive has chosen

0:41:100:41:13

to use the word, "Likely" again it

feels like an attempt to turn down

0:41:130:41:19

the volume of what is a very clear

report. To be fair to the Chief

0:41:190:41:24

Executive, that is a step up from

the previous apologies. So we don't

0:41:240:41:27

want to be dismissive of that. But

How many apologies have you had by

0:41:270:41:31

now?

They might as well signed off

their e-mails with, "Sorry for

0:41:310:41:40

adding to your distress."

They say

they have made steps to address the

0:41:400:41:45

shortcomings that arose from the

death of Harriet and strengthened

0:41:450:41:48

the maternity leadership structure

and improved the voment of parents

0:41:480:41:54

and strengthened governance

processes. Should that be reassuring

0:41:540:41:59

to other parents in the area, other

pregnant women?

We don't know the

0:41:590:42:04

detail and they should have served

the detail. Strengthening maternity

0:42:040:42:10

leadership is positive. That's not

the only criticism. There are lots

0:42:100:42:14

of criticism about the way the two

maternity departments operate and

0:42:140:42:18

communicate. We know because it has

been in the news they were

0:42:180:42:22

criticised by the coroner in 2014

for conducting a cofully inadequate

0:42:220:42:28

internal investigation. We're

shocked in 2016 they are still con

0:42:280:42:32

dicting woefully inadequate internal

investigations because it has taken

0:42:320:42:35

so long to get the hospital to

believe us, we have, we're concerned

0:42:350:42:41

what has been happening in the last

two years and there is a recent

0:42:410:42:44

coroner's inquest that has concluded

natural causes contributed to by

0:42:440:42:48

neglect and that is a very

significant...

For a baby?

Yes.

At

0:42:480:42:53

that same hospital?

Yes.

I think one of my concerns there is

0:42:530:42:58

that they haven't actually addressed

any clinical practise and we asked

0:42:580:43:03

why some of the clinicians who have

been highlighted in the report as

0:43:030:43:08

failing to deliver appropriate care

haven't been referred to their

0:43:080:43:11

governing bodies. The trust

responded with they didn't feel like

0:43:110:43:16

they met the threshold for referral

and I'm not sure, our daughter

0:43:160:43:20

dying, I'm not sure what their

threshold is for the referral.

A

0:43:200:43:24

number of midwives have been

retrained or sent on courses or

0:43:240:43:29

whatever. 18 months you have been

fighting for this. You both work

0:43:290:43:35

there, worked there. How difficult

has that been?

We haven't, I went

0:43:350:43:40

back to work for three months, but

my job is not just at the hospital,

0:43:400:43:45

that was very tough. But they have,

I got my P45 between Christmas and

0:43:450:43:51

New Year, so I am now unemployed.

I'm from next month I'm not getting

0:43:510:43:57

paid because I'm unable to return to

work. And Harriet is still in the

0:43:570:44:01

hospital because we have been, we

still haven't been able to have her

0:44:010:44:05

funeral.

What?

Yes.

How?

It is only

because we have got official

0:44:050:44:12

acknowledgement in this report that

her death was almost certainly

0:44:120:44:15

preventible that we can now have it,

but before with the previous

0:44:150:44:18

reports, they have always tried to

blame a weakness in us, a weakness

0:44:180:44:22

in Harriet like the infection so we

haven't been able to have her

0:44:220:44:25

funeral.

Right. Was that, was that

your choice that you wanted to wait

0:44:250:44:30

for a report that vindicated you so

you were going to leave the body of

0:44:300:44:34

your baby there?

We were so shocked

by their correlation between what

0:44:340:44:38

actually happened and the pathology

report that we didn't want to do

0:44:380:44:44

something permanent that would

provide useful information and we

0:44:440:44:47

were right. So, the final report has

been helped by us not having

0:44:470:44:54

Harriet's cremation.

I understand.

Now that we have this, we wanted to

0:44:540:44:58

wait for this to be published. It

has been slightly delayed in being

0:44:580:45:01

published, but not by the team who

wrote it.

Having your daughter lying

0:45:010:45:08

in a mortuary for 20 months is not a

pleasant feeling.

0:45:080:45:16

Janet Baker is the solicitor. What

next?

We're going to refer the

0:45:160:45:21

matter to the Crown Prosecution

Service because we feel that there

0:45:210:45:24

have been breaches of the health

care Act 2008 in relation to the

0:45:240:45:31

duty of candor. As can be seen,

there was no

0:45:310:45:38

You are alleging criminal offences

may have been committed when it came

0:45:380:45:41

to the hospital being open and

transparent about what actually

0:45:410:45:45

happened?

Yes, initially they did

not undertake an investigation it

0:45:450:45:52

was only after pressure from jack

and say that that they did anything

0:45:520:45:55

although their own protocol required

them to investigate this matter as a

0:45:550:46:01

serious untoward incident. When they

did investigate the incident Jack

0:46:010:46:08

and Sarah were not involved and it

was concluded there was no fault by

0:46:080:46:13

anyone at the hospital and the death

of Harriet was caused by infection.

0:46:130:46:19

The latest report has found that

that was certainly not the case and

0:46:190:46:26

that the pathologist was given

information which led him to

0:46:260:46:28

conclude it was probably infection

and not given the full clinical

0:46:280:46:33

picture which probably would have

led him to a different conclusion.

0:46:330:46:37

So we feel that is sufficient ground

for us to refer the matter to the

0:46:370:46:44

CPS to investigate under the health

and social care act. Under

0:46:440:46:48

regulations which came into force in

2014. We are also going to refer to

0:46:480:46:55

the Health and Safety Executive

because the most recent report

0:46:550:47:01

highlights patient safety issues in

systemic errors which we are not

0:47:010:47:06

convinced have been put right and

certainly were in existence at the

0:47:060:47:10

time of Harriet's death and at least

five months later when the other

0:47:100:47:14

baby died in similar circumstances.

Thank you for talking to us, Janet

0:47:140:47:21

Bakker solicitor, and Sarah and Jack

Hawkins, thank you for coming on the

0:47:210:47:25

programme.

0:47:250:47:27

Nottingham University Hospitals

Trust told us they've already made

0:47:270:47:29

substantial changes to address

the shortcomings in their systems

0:47:290:47:31

of clinical care and governance that

arose from this case and have

0:47:310:47:34

completed a broader review

of maternity services.

0:47:340:47:36

They say they've strengthened

the maternity leadership structure,

0:47:360:47:38

improved involvement of parents

in the investigation

0:47:380:47:39

process, and strengthened

governance processes.

0:47:390:47:41

They also say they've

completed a full review

0:47:410:47:43

of patient safety and outcomes

in its maternity service.

0:47:430:47:45

While areas of improvement

have been identified,

0:47:450:47:46

they say outcomes in their maternity

services are no different to those

0:47:460:47:49

in other similar units

in England and Wales.

0:47:490:47:51

Let's read some messages about Spice

coming from you after seeing are

0:47:510:47:54

some little earlier, Jacob says I am

a recreational drug user and tried

0:47:540:47:56

Spice when I was 16 because it was

easier to get than cannabis and it

0:47:560:48:00

was one of the most potent drugs I

have ever tried and one of the worst

0:48:000:48:04

experiences I have had mentally and

physically. Vastly different to

0:48:040:48:07

cannabis. I possibly could see the

appeal to homeless people as you

0:48:070:48:13

become so detached from reality. I

had hoped the ban would make it less

0:48:130:48:17

readily available but it's done the

opposite as I know more and more

0:48:170:48:21

dealers are selling it. Cameron said

I have been inside and seen the

0:48:210:48:26

effect on people in jail and it's

the worst thing I have ever seen.

0:48:260:48:29

People smoke it because they think

it is safe like cannabis when it is

0:48:290:48:33

the opposite. Since I have been out

of jail I have seen people smoking

0:48:330:48:37

Spice in the town centre, sleeping

on the floor and it is awful. Keep

0:48:370:48:43

those coming in, we will talk more

about Spice in the remaining part of

0:48:430:48:48

the programme.

0:48:480:48:51

Coming up, he was diagnosed

with depression as a teenager

0:48:510:48:53

and despite taking anti-depressants

realised he was still depressed.

0:48:530:48:55

We'll speak to Johann Hari

about his new book -

0:48:550:48:57

which questions what we know

about mental health.

0:48:570:48:59

To what extent is free speech

being suppressed in universities?

0:48:590:49:02

MPs are hearing evidence later today

about whether the law does enough

0:49:020:49:05

to protect freedom of speech

on university campuses.

0:49:050:49:07

In recent years there have been

a number of high profile cases

0:49:070:49:09

in which speakers with controversial

views have been prevented

0:49:090:49:12

from appearing at campuses,

a practice known as 'no

0:49:120:49:14

platforming'.

0:49:140:49:15

Supporters say it prevents hate

speech and stops vulnerable

0:49:150:49:17

people being harmed.

0:49:170:49:18

Opponents say it stops debate.

0:49:180:49:24

Last year the then Universities

Minister Jo Johnson said

0:49:240:49:26

Universities could be fined

if they fail to protect free speech.

0:49:260:49:28

It's an issue we first

looked at two years ago.

0:49:280:49:34

The policy is a policy that

says in our building -

0:49:340:49:36

and I'm talking the four walls

that we have in the Students Union,

0:49:360:49:39

that is for students -

we want to make it

0:49:390:49:42

accessible for everyone.

0:49:420:49:43

We're also making sure that

all voices, whether they are

0:49:430:49:49

LGBT, disabled, black, women,

trans, have a voice,

0:49:490:49:51

because we know in society

that they are marginalised

0:49:510:49:55

and don't have a voice.

0:49:550:49:56

That's the key thing.

0:49:560:49:58

We're not saying -

we don't live in a false bubble.

0:49:580:50:02

It's a place where you'd expect

to hear dangerous ideas,

0:50:020:50:04

not be frightened of them,

to actually go in...

0:50:040:50:07

I mean, people were saying,

"I might feel vulnerable."

0:50:070:50:09

I think that you will feel

uncomfortable, vulnerable,

0:50:090:50:12

everything will be scary,

because guess what?

0:50:120:50:14

Ideas that have changed the world

historically over many years -

0:50:140:50:17

have fought racism,

have got us equality -

0:50:170:50:20

they were offensive,

dangerous, scary to those

0:50:200:50:23

people who heard them.

0:50:230:50:28

Let's speak to Patrick Kilduff,

president of the University

0:50:280:50:30

of Edinburgh's student association,

who is giving evidence

0:50:300:50:32

at the inquiry today.

0:50:320:50:36

The University banned Robin Thicke's

'Blurred Lines' from being played

0:50:360:50:38

at student union events

because the lyrics "undermine

0:50:380:50:40

and degrade women".

0:50:400:50:48

Owl Fisher is a transgender

filmmaker and campaigned

0:50:490:50:51

to stop Germain Greer from speaking

at International Women's

0:50:510:50:53

Day in Brighton.

0:50:530:50:54

And Linda Bellos was 'no platformed'

by a Cambridge student society

0:50:540:50:57

because of her views about trans

women - that they aren't the same

0:50:570:51:00

as women who were born female.

0:51:000:51:03

Thank you all of you for talking to

us, I would like to hear you talking

0:51:030:51:08

to each other about the issue of

freedom of speech, not the subject

0:51:080:51:12

of views. Let me ask you to start

off with, Linda is free speech being

0:51:120:51:18

suppressed at universities?

It looks

like it, I don't want to hype it

0:51:180:51:21

but... The difficulty is if what was

said to me is widespread then we

0:51:210:51:28

have a problem. I don't think

students should be protected, I put

0:51:280:51:35

that in inverted commas, from ideas

they might disagree with. I think

0:51:350:51:38

they should develop robust arguments

in response, that is what we go to

0:51:380:51:45

university for, I did, as a mature

student.

No

0:51:450:51:55

student.

No Owl?

It is beyond

differing opinions and disagreement,

0:51:550:52:02

it is opinions which are hateful and

stigmatising towards a group of

0:52:020:52:04

people which is why I think

universities say they are there to

0:52:040:52:07

protect students and they did want

them to be exposed to views which

0:52:070:52:10

could harm them and people in that

situation. I think the discussion

0:52:100:52:17

needs to be about what sort of

opinions are being expressed, we can

0:52:170:52:21

differ on certain topics but when we

are speaking about people's lives it

0:52:210:52:26

has real consequences and

ramifications towards people and

0:52:260:52:30

especially minorities and we need to

be careful about what we put out

0:52:300:52:33

there and what is allowed to be

said.

Go-ahead Linda. I can see

0:52:330:52:40

wanted to respond? Could you hear

what Owl said?

Yes I did, I did not

0:52:400:52:47

realise you were addressing me,

sorry. I heard it and I think about

0:52:470:52:52

the hurt I have experienced in these

67 years of my life in Britain. I

0:52:520:52:57

was not protected, what I did do was

I think develop responses in order

0:52:570:53:03

to cope. I was not intending to

speak to students in ways that would

0:53:030:53:09

be hurtful or disrespectful of where

they wear or where they thought they

0:53:090:53:14

were, I wanted and I still want to

explore with other human beings

0:53:140:53:21

ideas, thoughts, I happen to think

that gender is very much a man-made

0:53:210:53:26

notion, just like a race is. There

is only one race, the human race,

0:53:260:53:30

yet there is racism because others

are treated less favourably because

0:53:300:53:35

of the colour of their skin. There

is the same stuff with gender.

I

0:53:350:53:41

would say it does look like it's all

about perception getting ahead of

0:53:410:53:46

reality. Almost everyone who is

seeing free speech is under attack

0:53:460:53:49

at universities spends no time in

higher education institutions. The

0:53:490:53:54

comments were ignorant because we

know free speech is alive and well,

0:53:540:54:01

we host almost five and a half

thousand events, the largest arts

0:54:010:54:04

festival in the world, and only a

few events are referred to the

0:54:040:54:11

compliance group by virtue of

government legislation and nothing

0:54:110:54:13

to do with the students Association.

Is it right there are some speakers

0:54:130:54:18

who will be invited would-be no

platform to because you want to

0:54:180:54:23

protect a group of students?

I think

it's right we take security

0:54:230:54:29

seriously.

What do you mean?

Their

risk elements to inviting certain

0:54:290:54:35

speakers so we have to account for

that.

What do you think would

0:54:350:54:40

happen, go on Linda?

I wonder if

they being black might hurt some of

0:54:400:54:43

them because most of them are white?

Is a risk? Spice I think that is

0:54:430:54:50

quite an inflammatory statement. The

security risks I am talking about

0:54:500:54:53

are the general health and safety of

people attending an event which is

0:54:530:54:57

why no speakers have been....

0:54:570:55:02

why no speakers have been....

I am

telling you what I believe you refer

0:55:030:55:05

to as now platforming is as you

know, you were disinvited. Why that

0:55:050:55:13

definition I have been no platform

by thousands of TV programmes this

0:55:130:55:20

morning but I don't get an platform

to stand in the media and say I was

0:55:200:55:24

no platform. You are currently on

one of the larger TV programmes in

0:55:240:55:29

the country talking about...

As are

you.

Yes but I'm not demonising a

0:55:290:55:35

false notion of now platforming.

Am

I? In what way?

I think the reasons

0:55:350:55:42

people might be disinvited is their

views are harming a vulnerable group

0:55:420:55:46

in society. It is not because people

are not allowed to speak because of

0:55:460:55:50

who they are it is because of the

views which have severe consequences

0:55:500:55:53

towards people and I am sorry that

that makes you side but it has real

0:55:530:55:57

consequences upon the lives of

people.

My views include my

0:55:570:56:02

experience of racism, that is part

of my view my experience and

0:56:020:56:07

analysis of power and during

construction, of systems that are

0:56:070:56:11

created usually by men, white men,

to highlight and create a hierarchy

0:56:110:56:16

in which some of us are given some

status and others are not. Those are

0:56:160:56:21

my views, is that dangerous to you?

It is dangerous when it starts

0:56:210:56:27

advocating against my rights and

these views are advocating against

0:56:270:56:31

my rights, the campaign you have

aligned ledger southward does.

That

0:56:310:56:36

is untrue. I support the 2004 gender

recognition act. I disagree with

0:56:360:56:42

some of the proposed changes to that

act which will have a

0:56:420:56:47

disadvantageous impact upon those of

us who remain female women.

Owl can

0:56:470:56:54

you explain what harm it does you to

hear the kind of use Linda has about

0:56:540:56:59

trans women, what specific harm?

The

main consequence of people denying

0:56:590:57:06

trans people their humanity and what

they are contributes to a very De

0:57:060:57:10

Vanna today and the scrum and today

discourse and we can see this when

0:57:100:57:13

we look at suicide rates for trans

people and how vulnerable they are

0:57:130:57:18

in society because these views

contribute to it and the reasons

0:57:180:57:23

trans people are often discriminated

against or cannot get access to

0:57:230:57:27

services is because of

discrimination and stigma.

Why do

0:57:270:57:30

you believe the best way to overcome

those views which you find offensive

0:57:300:57:34

is to silence them and not hear

them?

I would not say silence them,

0:57:340:57:41

I think Linda has every platform to

see her views, I just think in this

0:57:410:57:45

case it's not about her being

silenced it is about a specific

0:57:450:57:49

university not wanting to invite her

to speak at a specific event and it

0:57:490:57:53

is the right because they are taking

a stand against use she has

0:57:530:57:57

portrayed.

I am objecting to some

proposals the government for making

0:57:570:58:02

which will be disadvantageous to

those of us who are women, that is a

0:58:020:58:07

matter, it is not a matter of

0:58:070:58:14

matter, it is not a matter of the

view but I'm allowed to have them, I

0:58:140:58:20

think it is right in a free society,

we don't all have to agree with each

0:58:200:58:24

other but we do and can and should

be able to disagree with each other.

0:58:240:58:30

Again I think we have a right to

disagree and I think view's should

0:58:300:58:35

be challenged but it's about doing

it in a secure environment and now

0:58:350:58:39

platforming and those things you

speak of, the people on the no

0:58:390:58:42

platform realists are terrorist

organisations, people arrested for

0:58:420:58:50

inciting violence and racial hatred

and those other things we take into

0:58:500:58:53

account when we invite speakers,

like any organisation.

Am I1 of

0:58:530:58:57

them? I am asking you, I am one of

these people?

You are not on the now

0:58:570:59:10

platforming list.

But in this case I

was disinvited?

Yes, and that is one

0:59:100:59:16

institution 's decision not to

invite you to something.

Six

0:59:160:59:20

organisations are banned from

campuses including national action,

0:59:200:59:27

the BNP. Critics of bands like that

point to the fact, you will all

0:59:270:59:32

remember neck Grabban the leader of

the BNP, the then leader of the BNP

0:59:320:59:38

on question Time whose support seems

to fall away after he was able to

0:59:380:59:41

hear his views.

That is someone who

was put on a stage in the BBC studio

0:59:410:59:47

in a secure setting to air his

views. Most universities don't have

0:59:470:59:54

the resources to put on that I am

sure Broadcasting House had to put

0:59:540:59:58

on to accommodate for neck Griffin

that night.

Thank you all very much

0:59:581:00:01

for coming on the programme. Many

thanks for your time.

1:00:011:00:08

The latest news and sport in a

moment.

1:00:081:00:10

Let's get the latest weather

update - with Carol.

1:00:101:00:13

Better late than never, this morning

we have had a variety of weather,

1:00:151:00:20

mist and fog, beautiful pictures

sent in from Dorset by one of our

1:00:201:00:23

weather Watchers, this one of line

Regis shows a lovely sunrise and

1:00:231:00:28

clearer skies. For many of us a band

of rain moving east but behind it it

1:00:281:00:32

will be much whiter than it has been

the last couple of days with

1:00:321:00:37

sunshine coming through. Mist and

fog patches lifting from all but

1:00:371:00:41

Northern Ireland where we still do

have quite a bit of fog and that

1:00:411:00:44

will slowly left into low at cloud

and it won't lift for many at all.

1:00:441:00:55

At the same time we've also got rain

pushing over towards the east,

1:00:551:00:59

lingering across Yorkshire and

Lincolnshire into East Anglia to the

1:00:591:01:02

course of the afternoon but move

away from that and there is a

1:01:021:01:05

handbag of cloud with the cloud

continually breaking up and we will

1:01:051:01:08

see sunshine, some of us already

have the sunshine. Temperatures this

1:01:081:01:16

afternoon in Plymouth night breezes

will feel nice and across Wales,

1:01:161:01:20

vastly improved compared to last few

days, more bright spells and

1:01:201:01:25

sunshine and higher temperatures.

Northern Ireland will hang on to the

1:01:251:01:28

low cloud with fog through the day

for some, but it will be breaks it

1:01:281:01:33

will be bright rather than sunny,

western and central Scotland seeing

1:01:331:01:36

sunshine, rain across the far

north-east and also the Northern

1:01:361:01:40

Isles. Through this evening and

overnight we will so have some of

1:01:401:01:42

this rain but with all the moisture

in the atmosphere we are looking at

1:01:421:01:47

some fog forming quite widespread

tonight compared to the night just

1:01:471:01:50

gone across Northern Ireland, parts

of Wales, the Midlands and southern

1:01:501:01:54

counties, there will also be patchy

frost as well. Tomorrow the fog will

1:01:541:01:59

take its time to clear for some it

will lift into low cloud, for others

1:01:591:02:03

it will not clear at all, it will

have an adverse impact on the

1:02:031:02:07

temperatures, it will feel cold if

you're stuck underneath it but where

1:02:071:02:10

it left and we expect that to be

towards the West and the north we

1:02:101:02:14

are looking at sunshine but tempered

just that bit more low, the max

1:02:141:02:18

temperature in Glasgow only three

Celsius. Friday morning starts off

1:02:181:02:23

on a grey note, once again with some

patchy fog, touch of frost here and

1:02:231:02:27

they are but the further east you

are the brighter it will be because

1:02:271:02:30

by then we will have another weather

front waiting in the wings in the

1:02:301:02:34

West which will bring in rain and

some strengthening winds. Through

1:02:341:02:38

the course of ready into Saturday it

will move slowly from the west

1:02:381:02:42

towards the east. The timing of this

weather front could change so at the

1:02:421:02:45

moment what we think Saturday is it

will be wet across western Scotland

1:02:451:02:50

and into West Wales and south-west

England but if this slows up

1:02:501:02:53

obviously it will be drier in some

of those areas. The driest

1:02:531:02:57

conditions once again will be the

further east that you do travel.

1:02:571:03:05

Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 10

o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:03:081:03:10

Charities who work with drug users

in Manchester have told this

1:03:101:03:13

programme that a new strain

of the synthetic drug "spice"

1:03:131:03:15

is having a devastating

affect on the city.

1:03:151:03:20

We knew a particular gentleman who

is alcoholic and he was passed a

1:03:201:03:26

joint. He didn't realise spice was

in it. He took a couple of puffs and

1:03:261:03:32

fell to the ground and he ended up

dying a week later.

1:03:321:03:37

We'll be speaking to people directly

affected by the drug.

1:03:371:03:41

f you've used spice

or you're affected

1:03:411:03:45

by people who use it,

do get in touch and tell us what

1:03:451:03:48

kind of difference the ban has made.

1:03:481:03:56

No more macho "Your country needs

you" and "Be the best" -

1:03:591:04:03

the army is changing the way it

advertises for new recruits in

1:04:031:04:06

an attempt to demonstate it welcomes

people from all backgrounds.

1:04:061:04:08

I thought the Army was dominated by

men.

1:04:081:04:19

We'll speak to people who have

served in the Armed Forces.

1:04:191:04:21

Your reaction to this

is very welcome.

1:04:211:04:29

A French actress has said men should

be allowed to "hit on women"

1:04:311:04:34

without being forced out

of their jobs.

1:04:341:04:35

Catherine Deneuve is one of 100 well

known french women to sign

1:04:351:04:38

a letter in the wake

of the Harvey Weinstein scandal.

1:04:381:04:41

We;ll speak to one

of the signatures.

1:04:411:04:42

Reeta is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

1:04:421:04:44

of the rest of the day's news.

1:04:441:04:46

At least 13 people have died

in mudslides and floods

1:04:461:04:49

in southern California.

1:04:491:04:50

Witnesses say that torrents raged

through the streets. Hundreds of

1:04:501:04:52

people remain trapped in their

homes. Emergency services said they

1:04:521:04:55

expected the number of deaths to

rise.

1:04:551:05:00

The Army is launching

a new recruitment campaign

1:05:001:05:02

which emphasises the emotional

and physical support

1:05:021:05:03

given to soldiers.

1:05:031:05:04

A series of radio and online adverts

addresses concerns that potential

1:05:041:05:07

recruits might have.

1:05:071:05:10

There has been criticism from some

former officers who have

1:05:101:05:14

accused the Army of bowing

to political correctness.

1:05:141:05:21

The Ministry of Defence says its

campaign has sparked significant

1:05:211:05:24

interest from people in joining up.

1:05:241:05:26

100 well-known French women have

signed an open letter

1:05:261:05:29

defending the right of men

to make sexual advances.

1:05:291:05:31

The actress Catherine Deneuve is one

of the signatories who say

1:05:311:05:34

the recent wave of denunciations

of sexual harassment

1:05:341:05:38

following the Harvey Weinstein

affair is creating a new feminism

1:05:381:05:40

defined by hatred

of men and sexuality.

1:05:401:05:42

In the open letter published

in Le Monde, the women say

1:05:421:05:44

there is a new puritanism afoot

in the world.

1:05:441:05:52

Two Burmese journalist have been

charged in officialth court

1:05:541:06:03

charged in officialth court with

breaking Myanmar's official secrets

1:06:051:06:06

act. The arrest of the two

journalists, who work for the

1:06:061:06:11

righters news agency, has been

widely condemned.

1:06:111:06:14

Passengers on Thameslink,

Southern and Great Northern services

1:06:141:06:18

have suffered the worst disruption

of any rail franchise according

1:06:181:06:21

to a highly critical report.

1:06:211:06:22

The Government's spending watchdog,

the National Audit Office,

1:06:221:06:25

says the country's largest rail

operator has failed

1:06:251:06:26

to provide value for money.

1:06:261:06:33

It says industrial action has been a

factor for delays.

1:06:331:06:38

The Government admitted

the disruption has been unacceptable

1:06:381:06:41

and called on the RMT to cancel

needless strike action.

1:06:411:06:48

New measures to clamp down

on plastic waste are to be

1:06:481:06:50

extended by the Government.

1:06:501:06:53

Retailers with fewer than 250 staff

are exempted from the levy.

1:06:531:06:59

The idea is part of a 25 year plan

to improve the environment.

1:06:591:07:03

All retailers in Scotland and Wales

are already required

1:07:031:07:05

to charge for plastic bags.

1:07:051:07:07

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:07:071:07:09

More at 10.30am.

1:07:091:07:11

Thank you, Reeta.

1:07:111:07:17

Thank you for your comments about

free speech. A viewer tweets, "When

1:07:171:07:23

free speech is sensored by the

state, it is the start of a slippery

1:07:231:07:28

slope of state control." Lisa says,

"I am at university and I have in no

1:07:281:07:35

issues regarding free speech. I

don't think there is any need for

1:07:351:07:39

the state to intervene." You can

whatsapp and e-mail and so on, so

1:07:391:07:45

forth.

1:07:451:07:47

Here's some sport now with Sarah.

1:07:471:07:51

Bristol City boss Lee Johnson

believes his team can still topple

1:07:511:07:54

Manchester City after pushing them

to the limit at the Etihad Stadium.

1:07:541:07:58

They were two minutes away

from leaving with a draw

1:07:581:08:00

until Sergio Aguero scored

the late, late winner.

1:08:001:08:02

Pep Guardiola was full of praise

for how positive Bristol City were.

1:08:021:08:06

They led just before the break

after this penalty from Bobby Reid.

1:08:061:08:13

City named a strong side

and after the break, Kevin de

1:08:131:08:15

Bruyne got them level.

1:08:151:08:22

And just when you thought they would

hold on for the draw -

1:08:221:08:25

Aguero popped up

to score the winner.

1:08:251:08:26

Chelsea take on Arsenal

in the second semifinal

1:08:261:08:28

tonight at Stamford Bridge.

1:08:281:08:29

But believe it or not,

we're actually talking

1:08:291:08:32

about Manchester United boss

Jose Mourinho ahead of it!

1:08:321:08:34

His feud with Antonio Conte shows

no sign of stopping.

1:08:341:08:38

The to and fro between

the pair perhaps began

1:08:381:08:40

back in October 2016.

1:08:401:08:43

When Mourinho hit out at Conte

for celebrating too hard

1:08:431:08:47

after United lost 4-0 at

Stamford Bridge.

1:08:471:08:48

The pair have been bickering since.

1:08:481:08:53

The latest from Conte,

he's called Mourinhno a "little man"

1:08:531:08:56

after he brought up Conte's

"match-fixing suspension"

1:08:561:08:58

last weekend.

1:08:581:09:04

He looks a person that's very great,

I don't think so. But I think we

1:09:041:09:09

both say the things and we will see

what happens in the future. I think

1:09:091:09:13

that he said a series of words, used

a series of words and I won't forget

1:09:131:09:24

this.

This is not a problem from the club.

1:09:241:09:28

This is a problem between me and

him.

1:09:281:09:31

I stop. Stop.

1:09:311:09:36

After the poor Ashes series,

England's cricketers

1:09:361:09:38

begin their one-day campaign

with a match against

1:09:381:09:40

a Cricket Australia Eleven,

in Sydney tomorrow.

1:09:401:09:43

That's ahead of the first one day

international on Sunday

1:09:431:09:45

and wicket keeper Joss Buttler says

the players remain positive.

1:09:451:09:50

History tells you, it is always a

very, very tough tour coming here

1:09:501:09:54

for England and playing in Australia

and tough tour, but I think the guys

1:09:541:10:02

will dust themselves down and come

again. There is fantastic cricketers

1:10:021:10:05

and the guys who are here seem in

good spirits and I'm sure they are

1:10:051:10:08

looking forward to the white ball

arena and the freedom that brings.

1:10:081:10:14

Former world number

one, Novak Djokovic,

1:10:141:10:15

says he intends to play

in the Australian Open "for now".

1:10:151:10:21

Djokovic, who has dropped

to number 14 in the world,

1:10:211:10:23

returned after six months out

with an elbow injury

1:10:231:10:25

to beat Dominic Thiem

at the Kooyong Classic.

1:10:251:10:29

He'll be chasing a record

seventh Australian Open

1:10:291:10:31

title if he competes

at the tournament

1:10:311:10:32

which begins on Monday.

1:10:321:10:37

The elbow needed more time to

recover. I am gating in the groove

1:10:371:10:40

and getting my elbow from a match

play and today was the first best of

1:10:401:10:44

three match that I've played since

Wimbledon last year. So, I'm very

1:10:441:10:49

happy with the way it went.

Heather Watson, the British number

1:10:491:10:55

two is into the last eight at the

Hobart International. And that's

1:10:551:11:00

your sport for now.

Thanks, Sarah.

1:11:001:11:05

People who work with drug users

in Manchester have told this

1:11:051:11:07

programme that a new,

ultra potent strain of the synthetic

1:11:071:11:10

cannabinoid spice is causing

devastating affects in the city.

1:11:101:11:18

They say the ban on formerly "legal

highs", introduced in May 2016,

1:11:181:11:21

has made the epidemic in Manchester

worse and more dangerous

1:11:211:11:23

because users don't know

how strong the strains

1:11:231:11:25

are that they're smoking.

1:11:251:11:26

Strains vary widely in potency,

but evidence suggests that some can

1:11:261:11:29

lead to hospitalisation

or even death.

1:11:291:11:30

Our reporter John Owen

has been investigating.

1:11:301:11:32

We bought you his

full report earlier.

1:11:321:11:34

Here's a short extract.

1:11:341:11:40

It's early evening in

Piccadilly Gardens on the edge

1:11:401:11:44

of Manchester's Northern Quarter.

1:11:441:11:47

And the human consequences

of a substance known as Spice,

1:11:471:11:51

a highly addictive synthetic form

of cannabis, are plain to see.

1:11:511:11:53

I mean, I smoke half an ounce a day.

1:11:531:11:56

And that's, you know,

I still seem normal.

1:11:561:11:59

I'm not normal.

1:11:591:12:03

But if you look at half

of them, they haven't got

1:12:031:12:06

a clue what day it is.

1:12:061:12:10

I just wish now I knew a way

of getting away from it.

1:12:101:12:13

So-called legal highs like Spice

were made illegal in May of 2016.

1:12:131:12:19

But it's clear that among the rough

sleeper and homeless communities

1:12:191:12:21

here, they are as prevalent as ever.

1:12:211:12:23

And now, two front-line charities

have expressed fears that

1:12:231:12:26

a new and much stronger strain may

have entered circulation

1:12:261:12:29

with potentially

life-threatening consequences.

1:12:291:12:35

An organisation here

that's distributing food

1:12:351:12:36

to the rough sleeper community.

1:12:361:12:38

As you walk past, you can

really smell that very

1:12:381:12:41

distinctive Spice smell.

1:12:411:12:43

It's almost an acrid,

really chemical smell,

1:12:431:12:46

and it's all around that area

where the food is being distributed.

1:12:461:12:52

At Life Share, a charity that works

with vulnerable young people,

1:12:521:12:55

Julie has been seeing the effects

of this drug up close for some time.

1:12:551:12:58

And she has no doubt

that the strength of what's

1:12:581:13:01

being smoked has increased

in recent weeks.

1:13:011:13:09

We have got people coming

in absolutely white as a ghost.

1:13:121:13:15

Non-coherent, frothing at the mouth,

literally eyes rolling

1:13:151:13:17

about in the back of the head.

1:13:171:13:19

And this new strain,

you could literally be

1:13:191:13:20

talking to somebody,

and you turn around and they're

1:13:201:13:23

just literally gone.

1:13:231:13:24

We seek Spice addiction

on a daily basis.

1:13:241:13:26

And as I say, this one that's

around at the minute,

1:13:261:13:28

is really, really worrying.

1:13:281:13:29

Back on the streets we spoke

to one man who didn't

1:13:291:13:32

want his face to be shown.

1:13:321:13:33

But he told us that after taking

a drag on what he thought

1:13:331:13:36

was an ordinary roll-up,

he completely lost control

1:13:361:13:38

for several hours.

1:13:381:13:39

The tobacco had been mixed with

an ultra-strong strain of Spice.

1:13:391:13:42

Just one pull.

1:13:421:13:43

One pull?

1:13:431:13:44

One pull, yeah.

1:13:441:13:45

Dr Oliver Sutcliffe of

Manchester Metropolitan University

1:13:451:13:47

conducts tests on samples of Spice

for the police.

1:13:471:13:49

Spice samples vary

widely in their potency.

1:13:491:13:51

But the most recent

generation is the strongest

1:13:511:13:53

they've encountered.

1:13:531:13:56

They are significantly more potent

than the other previous generations

1:13:561:13:59

that have been seen.

1:13:591:14:03

He told us that unlike before

the ban, when Spice was sold

1:14:031:14:06

in packaging with information

about a given strain,

1:14:061:14:08

there is almost no way to tell

in advance how strong Spice sold

1:14:081:14:11

on the streets might be.

1:14:111:14:12

It's almost like putting

a loaded gun to your head,

1:14:121:14:15

playing Russian roulette.

1:14:151:14:16

Almost everybody we spoke to said

they knew of someone who had been

1:14:161:14:19

hospitalised or died

from using spies.

1:14:191:14:27

hospitalised or died

from using spice.

1:14:271:14:28

And evidence of this drug leaving

ruined lives in its wake

1:14:281:14:31

is all too abundant here.

1:14:311:14:32

With strains like the ones now said

to be at large in Manchester,

1:14:321:14:37

Let's talk about this more

now with Peter Morgan,

1:14:371:14:40

who works with young homeless people

in Manchester and recently

1:14:401:14:44

wrote his first novel, Spice Boys,

about spice users in the city.

1:14:441:14:49

Jeremy Sare is from the alcohol

and drugs prevention charity,

1:14:491:14:52

Mentor.

1:14:521:14:53

And joining us from Cannock

is Lee Harris, who's taken spice

1:14:531:14:56

when he was homeless.

1:14:561:14:59

Thank you very much. Peter, do you

agree that banning the drug has made

1:14:591:15:02

it worse for some people, because it

puts it into the hands of the

1:15:021:15:07

dealers and without packaging, users

have no idea how strong the strain

1:15:071:15:10

is they're taking?

Yes, I agree

because it makes it more accessible.

1:15:101:15:15

Ie the person pedalling it will

bring it to you first thing in the

1:15:151:15:19

morning and then you have your

spice. You can go begging, get the

1:15:191:15:23

money, pay him off and he will lay

you back on. It is easily

1:15:231:15:27

accessible.

The Home Office tell us

today that the ban on these

1:15:271:15:30

substances has given the police the

power to arrest hundreds of dealers,

1:15:301:15:34

some of whom are behind bars with

more cases progressing through the

1:15:341:15:38

courts, the use of psycho active

substances has fallen significantly

1:15:381:15:42

they say since the Government

outlawed legal highs in 2016. The

1:15:421:15:46

first offenders have been convicted,

over 300 retailers have closed down

1:15:461:15:50

and stopped selling the drugs and

they say through our new drugs

1:15:501:15:54

strategy, we are focussing on

education, treatment and support for

1:15:541:15:57

people who are dependant on drugs

including homeless people. So many

1:15:571:16:01

more dealers have been arrested

since it was banned?

1:16:011:16:08

Yeah, that's right, but the issue is

the number of young

1:16:081:16:11

Yeah, that's right, but the issue is

the number of young people using it

1:16:111:16:12

is quite low but it doesn't happen

in nice affluent areas of the

1:16:121:16:17

country, it's the most socially

excluded and entrenched in

1:16:171:16:25

excluded and entrenched in poverty,

there is no pathway for them to go

1:16:251:16:27

to if they are a crack addict or

heroin addict they can go somewhere

1:16:271:16:31

and get treated but right now it's

the most honourable in society, the

1:16:311:16:35

broadest of the poor we could see

who are addicted and having this

1:16:351:16:38

drug pushed on them and we don't

know what it's even doing to them.

1:16:381:16:42

We do know some of it, I have an

e-mail from a nurse who does not

1:16:421:16:46

wish to give their name which is

fine, I am a nurse in the Manchester

1:16:461:16:51

intensive care unit and we are

seeing increasing number of patients

1:16:511:16:54

admitted with horrific injuries

after using Spice including walking

1:16:541:16:59

in front of trams and walking off

bridges and tall buildings. We also

1:16:591:17:04

admit a lot of prisoners and have

been told by prison staff it's quite

1:17:041:17:08

common for long-term established

inmates to test out the strengths of

1:17:081:17:12

the drug on new, young,

impressionable and intimidated

1:17:121:17:17

prisoners. Some of these young

people have been left with like long

1:17:171:17:19

brain injuries and disabilities.

This drug is horrific and more needs

1:17:191:17:23

to be done to help vulnerable

people.

I totally agree with this.

1:17:231:17:28

One thing we have discovered in our

accommodations is young female Spice

1:17:281:17:34

users are no longer getting pregnant

while using Spice. I have spoken to

1:17:341:17:40

the MP, we always have a young girl

who is pregnant in our accommodation

1:17:401:17:44

but I have spoken to five different

supported accommodations and say

1:17:441:17:48

show me one young girl who is using

Spice who is now pregnant? There is

1:17:481:17:52

no study our money being pumped into

this to see if this is coincidence

1:17:521:17:59

or if it an effect, is it making

them infertile temporarily or in the

1:17:591:18:03

long term?

That is something new you

have brought to the audience today.

1:18:031:18:10

Let me bring in Lee, you were

watching us this morning and you

1:18:101:18:14

used to use this stuff for a couple

of years when it was legal, what do

1:18:141:18:18

you think about the fact it appears

to be getting stronger and the

1:18:181:18:22

reasons why?

I think inevitably it

is going to get stronger because

1:18:221:18:29

instead of us try to sort the

problem out in this country we just

1:18:291:18:32

criminalise everything. So when

cannabis was brought down, brought

1:18:321:18:38

up to class B, all of a sudden

people started looking for cheaper

1:18:381:18:43

alternatives which is when Spice

went big. As they ban every chemical

1:18:431:18:50

be used to make Spice out of,

chemists in China, but the stronger

1:18:501:18:54

chemical which has not been banned.

When you were taking it... When you

1:18:541:19:02

are taking it, described to our

audience what it made you feel?

If

1:19:021:19:08

you can imagine, I don't know, ten

pints of strong lager. Straightaway.

1:19:081:19:14

Just within a matter of seconds. All

of a sudden you are very, very, very

1:19:141:19:20

out of it. You are busy, feeling

sick. Bewildered. Nothing like

1:19:201:19:25

cannabis.

So what was the attraction

for you?

It was cheaper. The rot

1:19:251:19:36

cannabis back up to clasp the,

rather than decriminalising it and

1:19:361:19:40

helping people. They brought it up

to class B so the cheapest option

1:19:401:19:44

then was to try Spice.

Understood,

let me bring in Jeremy from the

1:19:441:19:50

alcohol and drugs prevention charity

Mentors. The psychoactive substances

1:19:501:19:58

act, this statement from the Home

Office, more dealers are being

1:19:581:20:01

arrested but there is a serious

problem on the streets of Manchester

1:20:011:20:04

and possibly elsewhere, what is to

be done?

We had to step back and see

1:20:041:20:10

the purpose of the psychoactive

substances act was to address a wide

1:20:101:20:13

range of what were known as legal

highs, not just Spice, stimulants

1:20:131:20:20

and hallucinogenic 's, a whole range

of them and they were available to

1:20:201:20:23

be purchased on the high street. I

think that was the main thrust of

1:20:231:20:27

the legislation to eradicate that

market. Of course the law is quite a

1:20:271:20:33

blunt instrument and it has left

this market which is vulnerable

1:20:331:20:41

people suffering very significantly

harm.

So what now?

I think, the

1:20:411:20:49

nurse said, vulnerable people need

to be helped and I think that is an

1:20:491:20:54

area where the Home Office statement

is somewhat lacking because the

1:20:541:20:58

commitment and investment into

education and treatment I am afraid

1:20:581:21:04

is not at a level, certainly we are

seeing this as the impact which is

1:21:041:21:09

the consequence.

Dean has detected

to say I have a son on Spice who

1:21:091:21:16

came home with wires coming out of

his chest after getting out of

1:21:161:21:20

hospital and then went back out to

smoke Spice again. It has destroyed

1:21:201:21:24

his and my life. Are you saying

there are broadly speaking fewer

1:21:241:21:31

people using Spice since the ban but

those who are being affected are

1:21:311:21:35

being disproportionately affected?

Yeah, it's not widespread

1:21:351:21:40

nationally, it is in certain

hotspots. Manchester has the worst,

1:21:401:21:46

Wrexham, Bristol, Lincoln, these are

areas where those communities are

1:21:461:21:49

suffering and that is where we need

much more coordination between

1:21:491:21:56

services, there is an all-party

parliamentary group and we have a

1:21:561:22:01

Round Table where we have the MP for

Manchester, the councillors and the

1:22:011:22:07

police and other representatives

from different communities about how

1:22:071:22:12

we can best coordinate the services

as they are because enforcement is

1:22:121:22:18

definitely not the only answer. It

cannot be. We have got to be

1:22:181:22:23

offering a lot more treatment as

Peter points out, there is not

1:22:231:22:29

sufficient level of treatment and

that is a view shared by established

1:22:291:22:35

establishment groups such as the

local government Association and the

1:22:351:22:39

advisory Council for the misuse of

drugs and they are being

1:22:391:22:42

particularly critical about cutbacks

which are counter-productive and

1:22:421:22:47

essentially false economy.

Another

e-mail from Stephen saying I had to

1:22:471:22:53

assist the man who in his 30s who

was not homeless who had taken Spice

1:22:531:22:56

in London and had to be put in the

recovery position. Fortunately an

1:22:561:23:01

ambulance turned up quickly and CPR

was undertaken, he was still alive,

1:23:011:23:05

just, when we put him in the

ambulance. This is quite shocking

1:23:051:23:08

stuff. Thank you for coming on the

programme gentleman.

1:23:081:23:21

programme gentleman. Your views are

welcome, particularly if you have a

1:23:211:23:25

experience, we heard from a nurse

and a probation officer this morning

1:23:251:23:28

and it all feeds into the

conversation, thank you. Still to

1:23:281:23:33

come a body has been found in a

garden in greater Manchester after a

1:23:331:23:36

woman walked into a police station

and told officers she had killed and

1:23:361:23:40

buried a man and number of years

ago. We will get the latest from the

1:23:401:23:43

scene.

1:23:431:23:45

Next this morning -

do some of the things

1:23:451:23:48

we think we know about

depression need challenging?

1:23:481:23:49

Johann Hari thinks so.

1:23:491:23:52

He's a journalist and author

and former columnist

1:23:521:23:53

for the Independent newspaper.

1:23:531:23:58

He was diagnosed with depression

as a teenager and was prescribed

1:23:581:24:01

anti-depressants when he was 18

and continued to take the pills

1:24:011:24:04

for the next 13 years.

1:24:041:24:07

Throughout that time he realised

that he was still depressed.

1:24:071:24:09

He's now written a book

called Lost Connections -

1:24:091:24:11

which explores the causes

of depression and anxiety -

1:24:111:24:13

and he argues that instead of trying

to mute the symptoms with drugs -

1:24:131:24:17

we need to fundamentally change

the way we live our lives to get

1:24:171:24:20

to deal with the root causes.

1:24:201:24:24

In 2011 his newspaper career ended

after it emerged he'd passed off

1:24:241:24:27

other writers' material as his own.

1:24:271:24:30

If you have experience

of depression then please do get

1:24:301:24:34

in touch to give your view

on what Johann Hari talks

1:24:341:24:36

to us about today.

1:24:361:24:42

Good morning to you, thank you for

coming on the programme. You argue

1:24:421:24:47

depression can be often a rational

reaction to a situation, not always

1:24:471:24:53

down to a brain malfunction, tell us

more and why you have reached that

1:24:531:24:58

conclusion?

I wanted to read the

book because I was haunted by

1:24:581:25:01

mysteries I could not find the

answer to, firstly why was I still

1:25:011:25:06

depressed? When I was a teenager I

had gone to the doctor and said I

1:25:061:25:10

had a feeling like pain was leaking

out of me, I could not control it

1:25:101:25:13

and the doctor told me a story,

there is a chemical called

1:25:131:25:17

serotonin, some people lack it and

you are one of them, we will give

1:25:171:25:20

you these

1:25:201:25:25

you these drugs to get your level

back and I felt relief and a

1:25:271:25:29

significant boost when I started

taking them. Within a few months the

1:25:291:25:32

pain started coming back through, I

went back and he give me a bigger

1:25:321:25:35

dose until in the end I was on the

maximum dose for 13 years. I ended

1:25:351:25:38

that was still depressed and I

wondered why but the biggest

1:25:381:25:40

question was why other so many other

people like me? One in 11 people in

1:25:401:25:45

Britain are now so distressed they

feel the need to drug themselves to

1:25:451:25:47

get through the day. There are more

people who are depressed and anxious

1:25:471:25:51

who are not doing that. I thought it

cannot just be something going wrong

1:25:511:26:01

inside the chemistry of our brains,

that seems to be rising. So I

1:26:011:26:03

interviewed scientists around the

world and people with different

1:26:031:26:05

perspectives and the main thing I

learned was the story the doctor

1:26:051:26:08

told me was not true. Professor it's

deeply misleading to say low

1:26:081:26:12

serotonin causes depression. I found

that challenging but there is a

1:26:121:26:18

better story about oppression

waiting for us which is partly that

1:26:181:26:21

we know all human beings have

physical needs. We need food,

1:26:211:26:25

warmth, clean air, if we are

deprived of them we will be in

1:26:251:26:28

trouble. There is equal evidence we

have deep psychological needs, you

1:26:281:26:32

need to feel you belong and your

life has meaning and purpose. You

1:26:321:26:35

need to feel you have a stable and

secure future and in our culture

1:26:351:26:39

less people are getting those needs

met and that is the main, not the

1:26:391:26:43

only but the main reason we this

crisis.

So if you are lonely or

1:26:431:26:48

breed or are in a rubbish job and

feel you are trapped and have no

1:26:481:26:54

control, it can potentially lead to

depression as well as possibly low

1:26:541:26:58

serotonin and other psychological

reasons?

It was striking to look at

1:26:581:27:02

it, if you had a dramatic childhood

you are 3100% more likely to become

1:27:021:27:08

suicidally depressed as an adult. If

you are acutely lonely, it's a deep

1:27:081:27:13

cause of depression.

We know that.

We know that. Don't we?

Yes but I

1:27:131:27:19

think we have a weird disconnect, it

is almost the mall, common sense

1:27:191:27:22

that if your life has gone wrong you

will feel unhappy but we've not

1:27:221:27:27

acted on that. I can give you an

example, there was a doctor in

1:27:271:27:31

London, a wonderful man, he had

loads of patients coming to him in

1:27:311:27:35

his surgery who were really

depressed and he talked to them and

1:27:351:27:39

you think it makes sense you are

depressed, you are lonely and

1:27:391:27:42

isolated and he felt it was an

ethnically questionable decision, it

1:27:421:27:48

is inadequate to the skill of the

problem. So he tried something

1:27:481:27:51

different. One patient was a woman

called Lisa who had been shut away

1:27:511:27:56

in a home for seven years with

terrible depression and anxiety and

1:27:561:27:59

he said I will keep scribbling in

the drugs if you want but I will

1:27:591:28:03

prescribe you to take part in a

group. The one she was assigned to,

1:28:031:28:07

there was an area of scrubland at

the back of the surgery and they

1:28:071:28:11

said this group of people Will you

meet a couple times a week and turn

1:28:111:28:14

it into something beautiful. They

kept going and as they got their

1:28:141:28:18

fingers into the dark and had a

place to meet to talk to each other

1:28:181:28:21

that was not talking about how bad

the felt and as Lisa puts it, as the

1:28:211:28:26

garden can ban to bloom we began to

bloom. There was similar thing in

1:28:261:28:34

Norway that showed programmes like

this work as effective. Gardening

1:28:341:28:40

programmes for depressed and anxious

people. It goes with what you said,

1:28:401:28:43

it dealt with the reason why they

were depressed and anxious in the

1:28:431:28:48

first place.

You compare the

publication of drug trials to taking

1:28:481:28:52

a selfie, explain that analogy?

It

was shocking in terms of how we have

1:28:521:28:58

oversold antidepressants. They have

a real role and I don't want to take

1:28:581:29:01

anything away from anyone. But we

all know if you take selfie is at

1:29:011:29:06

least with me, you take 40 and throw

away the first 39 were you have a

1:29:061:29:11

double chin or whatever and the 40th

is the one which becomes your

1:29:111:29:15

profile picture. Turned out with the

drug trials a similar thing happens.

1:29:151:29:19

When they were researching how much

help people get from antidepressants

1:29:191:29:23

the drug companies would commission

loads of trials, the equivalent of

1:29:231:29:27

the 40 selfie 's and most of them

were never published, the ones which

1:29:271:29:31

showed low or mixed results were

never published, the only published

1:29:311:29:35

the ones which looked good. 247

people given the drug and only 27

1:29:351:29:41

people's results were published and

those were the people for whom it

1:29:411:29:44

worked. It exaggerates the number of

people, between, I thought I was a

1:29:441:29:50

freak for being on antidepressants

and still feeling terrible. But I

1:29:501:29:53

was normal, between 65 and 80% of

people taking antidepressants become

1:29:531:29:59

depressed again in a year.

The

information about drug trial results

1:29:591:30:03

being published came from a

professor at Harvard.

It comes from

1:30:031:30:11

lots of scientists, it is widely

acknowledged across the field.

Is

1:30:111:30:15

it? The Association of the British

pharmaceutical industry tell us the

1:30:151:30:19

code of practice requires drugs are

published within 12 months of the

1:30:191:30:25

first regulatory approval for trial

completion and the disclosure rate

1:30:251:30:30

of farmer led potential trials is at

a record 93% of new medicines.

The

1:30:301:30:37

regulator...

What you are seeing is

the opposite of what they are

1:30:371:30:40

saying.

This is what the professors

have looked at in detail, the look

1:30:401:30:45

that, when you apply for a drug to

come to market in the US you had to

1:30:451:30:50

submit it to the Federal drug and

food agency, you have to submit the

1:30:501:30:54

equivalent of all yourself these. So

he did the first Freedom of

1:30:541:31:02

information request to get all of

those so they all have to be, in

1:31:021:31:05

that case they have to be submitted

but they are not made public. That

1:31:051:31:08

is part of the problem. The other

thing which is shocking is you or

1:31:081:31:12

me, you can do 1000 trials and you

only have to do two which show some

1:31:121:31:16

effect to be able to drink the drug

to market and I think people know

1:31:161:31:20

this problem.

1:31:201:31:27

The disclosure rate is 93%?

That's

not the case in the United States

1:31:281:31:33

where most of the drugs originate.

The situation in the US which we

1:31:331:31:39

have studied carefully is they are

submitted to the regulator, but not

1:31:391:31:42

shown to the public. You only have

to have two out of thousands which

1:31:421:31:47

show some effects. You can submit

the trials and submit 998 trials and

1:31:471:31:54

2 effective ones and you can submit

it to the marred debt. Ket.

You say

1:31:541:31:59

in 13 years, no doctor, no GP asked

you why are you feeling like this?

1:31:591:32:04

Why are you distressed? Really? No

doctor ever asked you?

No.

That

1:32:041:32:08

can't be right, can it?

It is

unacceptable and it happened to a

1:32:081:32:12

lot of people who are going to their

doctor's. It is better now because

1:32:121:32:17

some people are referred to short

courses of CBT.

They have a check

1:32:171:32:21

list of things to ask you if you go

in with anxiety or depression.

This

1:32:211:32:27

would have been the mid-90s that was

going. One thing that helped me

1:32:271:32:32

change by prospective. A doctor was

in Cambodia when chemical

1:32:321:32:38

antidepressants were introduced. The

doctors didn't know what they were

1:32:381:32:42

and they said we don't need them. He

thought they were going to talk

1:32:421:32:47

about a herbal remedy. They said, we

will tell you a story. They told him

1:32:471:32:52

a guy who worked in the rice fields

and one day he stood on a land mine

1:32:521:32:57

and had his leg blown off. He went

back to work in the field and it was

1:32:571:33:04

painful. He became depressed and we

listened to him and realised how he

1:33:041:33:09

is in pain and we thought if we buy

him a cow and he won't be depressed

1:33:091:33:16

and they bought him a cow. If you

were taught to think the way that

1:33:161:33:21

depression is a problem in your

brain, that sounds like a joke. You

1:33:211:33:25

are not broken. You are not a

machine with broken parts. You are a

1:33:251:33:30

human being with unmet needs and you

need help to get the needs met.

1:33:301:33:34

That's the sustainable path out of

depression for most people.

OK.

1:33:341:33:38

David says, "Antidepressants are not

the sole cure of depression. Any GP

1:33:381:33:42

will tell you that. You have to work

at the root of the problem with

1:33:421:33:46

other tools as well."

I agree.

Jim

says, "Why are you giving airtime to

1:33:461:33:54

the notorious having failed to make

money stealing other journalists

1:33:541:33:57

working he is preying on sick

people. What a Charlottan.

There

1:33:571:34:05

were two things I did wrong when

working at Independent. I had took

1:34:051:34:10

things that they had written or said

to other people and presented them

1:34:101:34:15

as if they were said to me. Online I

was spiteful about other people

1:34:151:34:20

under a pseudonym. When you screw up

like that, you should pay a really

1:34:201:34:24

big price. I did pay a big price, I

resigned from a job I loved and I

1:34:241:34:29

was shut out for three years and I

went away and wrote a book to really

1:34:291:34:35

demonstrate, I wanted to demonstrate

maximum transparency to show I

1:34:351:34:38

wasn't doing that again. I put all

of the audio for everything that was

1:34:381:34:43

said in the book, people can hear it

being said to me, I have done that

1:34:431:34:46

with the new book as well, but it is

understandable, when you screw up,

1:34:461:34:51

people should hold you accountable,

people should continue to say, "How

1:34:511:34:55

do we, why should we listen to you?"

This is part of the price I pay for

1:34:551:34:59

it.

Do you know why you did what you

did?

I do. I'm reluctant to talk

1:34:591:35:05

about that in this context because

if I start doing that, what and I

1:35:051:35:10

don't want to do this by myself, it

is like saying see it from my point

1:35:101:35:14

of view and when you screw up and do

things that hurt you, you should

1:35:141:35:18

encourage people to see it from the

point of the view of the people you

1:35:181:35:21

have hurt, the readers of the

Independent, the people who worked

1:35:211:35:24

at the Independent with me, and the

people I was nasty about. So I would

1:35:241:35:29

rather people had their stories

about it and saw it from their point

1:35:291:35:32

of view and I have thought a lot

about the an to your question, but I

1:35:321:35:36

won't talk about it in that context

for this reason.

Have you thought

1:35:361:35:41

about whether there might have been

a link between what you did and your

1:35:411:35:46

anxiety and depression?

I don't

think there is. I think it was my

1:35:461:35:50

character flaws. I think it was

things that were wrong with my

1:35:501:35:52

personality. No, there is a big

difference from the things that we

1:35:521:35:56

are talking about here and that.

How

do you reflect on that time now?

I

1:35:561:36:01

reflect on it a lot in ways that I

would rather not talk about because

1:36:011:36:05

I don't want to sound like people

should see it from my point of view.

1:36:051:36:09

The main thing is demonstrating to

people you can see very clearly, you

1:36:091:36:13

just go to the lost connections.com

and you can see I've not done that

1:36:131:36:18

again and one thing that was really

moving was how many people, you

1:36:181:36:22

know, even people who were critical

of my previous book and the

1:36:221:36:26

arguments said this is a really

transparent and robust book.

OK.

1:36:261:36:30

Thank you very much.

Thanks,

Victoria. I really enjoyed it.

Thank

1:36:301:36:34

you for coming on the programme.

1:36:341:36:37

If you're affected by depression

and want help of advice -

1:36:371:36:40

you can find details

of organisations offering

1:36:401:36:42

information and support with mental

health at bbc.co.uk/actionline,

1:36:421:36:45

or you can call for free,

at any time to hear recorded

1:36:451:36:48

information on 08000 564 756.

1:36:481:36:55

Still to come:

1:36:551:36:56

100 French woman have signed

a letter complaining

1:36:561:36:58

about a new "puritanism" in the wake

of the Harvey Weinstein scandal.

1:36:581:37:01

We'll get reaction

from here and in France.

1:37:011:37:05

The Army launches a new advertising

campaign in an attempt

1:37:051:37:07

to be more inclusive.

1:37:071:37:09

But critics say it doesn't target

those most likely to sign-up.

1:37:091:37:15

We will show you the new ads and you

can tell us if you think they work.

1:37:151:37:20

Time for the latest

news - here's Reeta.

1:37:201:37:25

At least 13 people have died

in flash floods and mudslides

1:37:251:37:27

in southern California.

1:37:271:37:29

Dramatic footage has emerged showing

a family being airlifted to safety

1:37:291:37:32

from their home in Santa Barbara.

1:37:321:37:34

Emergency services say hundreds

more remain trapped.

1:37:341:37:37

Witnesses say torrents raged

through the streets and boulders

1:37:371:37:40

the size of cars rolled

down the hillsides.

1:37:401:37:41

Emergency services said

they expected the number

1:37:411:37:43

of deaths to rise.

1:37:431:37:49

The Army is launching

a new recruitment campaign

1:37:491:37:51

which emphasises the emotional

and physical support

1:37:511:37:52

given to soldiers.

1:37:521:37:53

A series of radio and online adverts

addresses concerns that potential

1:37:531:37:56

recruits might have.

1:37:561:38:01

There has been criticism from some

former officers who have

1:38:011:38:04

accused the Army of bowing

to political correctness.

1:38:041:38:09

The Ministry of Defence says

its campaign has sparked significant

1:38:091:38:12

interest from people in joining up.

1:38:121:38:19

Two Burmese journalist have been

charged in officialth court with

1:38:191:38:22

breaking Myanmar's

official secrets act.

1:38:221:38:27

They were handed documents last

month.

1:38:271:38:33

The arrest of the two

journalists, who work

1:38:331:38:40

The arrest of the two journalists,

who work for a news agency,

1:38:401:38:43

has been widely condemned.

1:38:431:38:47

We can show you some pictures

from Southern California now -

1:38:471:38:51

where rescuers are searching

for survivors after devastating

1:38:511:38:57

rains led to the deaths

of at least 13 people.

1:38:571:38:59

Here we can see the San Diego

Coast Guard rescuing

1:38:591:39:04

a family and their pets

in Santa Barbara County

1:39:041:39:06

by helicopter.

1:39:061:39:10

The area has seen major

mudslides following the rain.

1:39:101:39:15

Witnesses have described boulders

the size of small cars

1:39:151:39:17

rolling down the hillside.

1:39:171:39:23

And the death toll of 13 is expected

to rise.

1:39:231:39:31

Here's some sport now.

1:39:311:39:33

Bristol City were two minutes away

from holding Premier League leaders

1:39:331:39:37

Manchester City in the first leg

of their League Cup semi-final.

1:39:371:39:40

The sides were level at 1-1 before

Sergio Aguero popped

1:39:401:39:42

up in stoppage time to give

Pep Guardiola's side a slim

1:39:421:39:45

advantage going into the second leg

at Ashton Gate in a fortnight.

1:39:451:39:48

The war of words continues between

Antonio Conte and Jose Mourinho.

1:39:481:39:51

The Chelsea boss called Mourinhno

a "little man" and says

1:39:511:39:53

"he won't forget this",

after the Manchester United manager

1:39:531:39:55

brought up Conte's "match-fixing

suspension" last weekend.

1:39:551:40:00

And British number two,

Heather Watson is through the last

1:40:001:40:02

eight at the Hobart International.

1:40:021:40:04

That's after a straight sets win

over Australian Jamiee Fourlis.

1:40:041:40:12

And that's your sport headlines.

1:40:121:40:23

A legendary French actor has

defended men's right to "hit

1:40:271:40:31

on women" without being forced out

of their jobs.

1:40:311:40:38

Catherine Deneuve -

who's best known for her role

1:40:381:40:40

as a bored housewife in Belle de

Jour - was one of 100 well known

1:40:401:40:44

French women to sign a letter

complaining about a new "puritanism"

1:40:441:40:47

in the wake of the Harvey

Weinstein scandal.

1:40:471:40:49

They letter says, "Rape is a crime,

but trying to seduce someone,

1:40:491:40:51

even persistently or cack-handedly,

is not - nor is men being

1:40:511:40:54

gentlemanly a chauvanist attack.

1:40:541:40:55

Men have been punished summarily,

forced out of their jobs

1:40:551:40:58

when all they did was touch

someone's knee or try

1:40:581:41:00

to steal a kiss".

1:41:001:41:07

The authors argued that there

was a new "puritanism"

1:41:071:41:09

afoot in the world.

1:41:091:41:10

They said that while it was

legitimate and necessary to speak

1:41:101:41:13

out against the abuse of power

by some men, the constant

1:41:131:41:15

denunciations have

spiralled out of control.

1:41:151:41:17

According to the writers,

this is creating a public mood

1:41:171:41:19

in which women are seen

as powerless, as perpetual victims.

1:41:191:41:25

As women we do not recognise

ourselves in this feminism,

1:41:251:41:27

which beyond denouncing the abuse

of power, takes on a hatred

1:41:271:41:33

of men and of sexuality.

1:41:331:41:34

Men had been dragged

through the mud, they argued,

1:41:341:41:37

for "talking about intimate subjects

during professional dinners

1:41:371:41:40

or for sending sexually charged

messages to women who did not

1:41:401:41:42

return their attentions".

1:41:421:41:47

The letter attacked feminist social

media campaigns like # MeToo

1:41:471:41:53

and its French equivalent.

1:41:531:41:58

For unleashing this

"puritanical wave of purification".

1:41:581:42:00

It claimed that "legitimate protest

against the sexual violence that

1:42:001:42:02

women are subject to,

particularly in their

1:42:021:42:04

professional lives," had

turned into a witch-hunt.

1:42:041:42:05

"What began as freeing women

up to speak has today

1:42:051:42:08

turned into the opposite,

we intimidate people

1:42:081:42:11

into speaking "correctly",

shout down those who don't fall

1:42:111:42:14

into line, and those

women who refused to bend

1:42:141:42:17

to the new are regarded

as complicit and traitors."

1:42:171:42:25

The signatories, who included a porn

star-turned-agony aunt,

1:42:251:42:30

claimed they were defending sexual

freedom for which "the liberty to

1:42:301:42:33

seduce and importune was essential".

1:42:331:42:34

With me in the studio

is Charlie Cuff, she's

1:42:341:42:36

a writer and campaigner

from The Second Source,

1:42:361:42:38

a group of women journalists working

to end sexual harassment

1:42:381:42:40

in the media.

1:42:401:42:41

She has faced unwanted

sexual advances.

1:42:411:42:46

Rosie Millard is a feminist

and campaigner.

1:42:461:42:50

And in our Leeds studio,

Aisha Ali Khan, writer and blogger,

1:42:501:42:52

who was subjected to sexual

harassment whilst working

1:42:521:42:58

as a parliamentary aide.

1:42:581:43:03

Hello. Good morning.

How do you respond to the letter?

1:43:031:43:11

Well, I think that obviously, you

know, tapping someone on the knee or

1:43:111:43:18

flirting gently or smiling, you

know, sexual attraction will happen

1:43:181:43:22

in the workplace.

The point about

the letter is... Even that behaviour

1:43:221:43:26

is not allowed anymore and that's

what they are protesting against?

I

1:43:261:43:30

think that's ridiculous. The thing

is, it is all very well for

1:43:301:43:33

Catherine Deneuve to say this, but

Catherine Deneuve is a powerful

1:43:331:43:35

woman. She is a global icon and you

know, it is easy for her to say

1:43:351:43:40

treat me with respect, and also you

know, you can flirt with me and if

1:43:401:43:45

you are not allowed to, that makes

me feel like a victim, like a child,

1:43:451:43:50

don't treat me like there, I am a

woman of my, I can tell someone to

1:43:501:43:54

back off.

There are 99 other women

who signed this letter. They are all

1:43:541:43:58

in positions of power like Catherine

Deneuve.

They seem to be, you know,

1:43:581:44:02

they seem to be prominent people

albeit porn star, they seem to be

1:44:021:44:08

women who have perhaps achieved

something in the workplace otherwise

1:44:081:44:12

they wouldn't be silgttries to the

letter. One can assume they are

1:44:121:44:17

people -- signatories to the letter.

One can assume they have achieved

1:44:171:44:21

confidence and that is not what the

Me Too thing is about. It is about

1:44:211:44:27

women in equal positions who feel

they have got to go along with it

1:44:271:44:32

because otherwise they may lose out

in their jobs or their careers.

1:44:321:44:36

Charlie, are there any points you

agree with in the letter?

There is

1:44:361:44:39

not, no. I think, I would just like

to reiterate what you are saying.

1:44:391:44:44

This is influential women who do not

reflect, like their views do not

1:44:441:44:49

reflect the view of the masses who

were part of the Me Too movement.

It

1:44:491:44:54

is OK for them to make the points,

is it

They can make it. Their

1:44:541:45:00

reputation is strong. There is some

women in France speaking up against

1:45:001:45:03

them. There are people like myself

and Rosie who are taking issue with

1:45:031:45:07

the letter. It is a distraction

essentially quoting Oprah, what we

1:45:071:45:11

need to be foe us on right now are

the women mos names we don't know.

1:45:111:45:16

We need to be getting to know the

names of women who are working in

1:45:161:45:20

industries that aren't prominent and

face sexual harassment.

1:45:201:45:27

I think it is harassing to be

constantly chatted up and sent

1:45:271:45:31

unwanted messages, it is wrong.

They

disagree. However clumsily a man

1:45:311:45:37

trying to seduce a woman is not a

crime.

It is not a crime but it's

1:45:371:45:42

not nice and you should not have to

put up with it.

This letter is quite

1:45:421:45:48

frankly bonkers. I think what it

does is a massive disservice to men

1:45:481:45:54

as well. I know lots of men, French

men, British men, men from all over

1:45:541:45:59

the world and to say men should be

allowed to give into their sexual

1:45:591:46:03

urges despite the fact they could be

wild and aggressive is absolutely

1:46:031:46:07

wrong. It takes away from the fact

that women do not know or cannot

1:46:071:46:11

differentiate the difference between

flirting and sexual harassment. I

1:46:111:46:15

think the letter if it had come at

any other time would have been

1:46:151:46:22

laughed out, described as bonkers.

But because it's come out at this

1:46:221:46:25

crucial time where we have a

movement going on,, the million

1:46:251:46:29

women's march all over the world,

and another march coming up in a few

1:46:291:46:35

weeks on the 21st of January, it is

a crucial time for women who have

1:46:351:46:41

suffered to come forward.

I will

pour Junior because I want to

1:46:411:46:44

introduce Julia who signed this

letter, I don't know if you heard

1:46:441:46:52

our last guest say this letter is

bonkers?

I do not understand,

1:46:521:46:57

bonkers?

Mad, crazy, what are you

doing?

By signing that letter? I'm

1:46:571:47:06

not crazy at all. I am really, I

have sense, I reflect a lot to sign

1:47:061:47:15

a letter because I thought it's

important to know that women,

1:47:151:47:21

writers, women journalists, that

it's not only one way to think. All

1:47:211:47:29

that campaigns, who consider that

women are victims, that is real,

1:47:291:47:34

that we cannot accept sexual

harassment, must be punished, of

1:47:341:47:42

course... I agree with that. But

there is not only one way to think,

1:47:421:47:49

that women are eternal victims. No.

Women can fight back and I want to

1:47:491:47:57

learn when women are addressed, they

can fight back, we can learn that.

1:47:571:48:04

Also that women and men can make,

seduce and make mistakes in

1:48:041:48:14

seduction.

There are two women

sitting next to me in the studio in

1:48:141:48:19

London, there was a sharp intake of

breath as you said that last bit.

I

1:48:191:48:25

think this is part of the French

national character, that you love

1:48:251:48:31

being a sexy nation and I think your

use of the word puritanical is quite

1:48:311:48:37

interesting, it's like, yeah, in

France we wear silk stockings and

1:48:371:48:41

Chanel number five and sexuality is

very important in the French

1:48:411:48:47

cultural message. I think this is a

defence of France against a kind of,

1:48:471:48:55

you know, the puritanical and the

not interested in having fun

1:48:551:49:01

countries like the UK and America. I

think it's, you know, possibly the

1:49:011:49:10

campaign, like all campaigns, it has

to gain enormous amount of ground

1:49:101:49:14

before it levels out and maybe there

are some men who have been wrongly

1:49:141:49:21

chastised, I doubt it. I don't think

it makes women feel like victims or

1:49:211:49:25

babies, I think it makes women feel

more powerful.

Yeah, I am not, I

1:49:251:49:32

don't defend that the French idea of

sexiness, I defend the human beings

1:49:321:49:38

and I think in the UK, in America,

in Algeria, when I came back, in

1:49:381:49:45

France, in Belgium, we are all the

same, we want peace. I am a feminist

1:49:451:49:51

if feminism is a quality between men

and women. I think that is possible.

1:49:511:50:00

Having 100 text messages on your

phone from someone sexually pursuing

1:50:001:50:02

new is not equality, it is here

asked and and annoying you, it's not

1:50:021:50:07

equal.

Sexual harassment can be,

does exist, that, I am not and I

1:50:071:50:17

agree with that. We can say, that is

normal, yeah, men are men, no. I

1:50:171:50:25

will see no. But there is also a lot

of frustration in the world, in the

1:50:251:50:34

men's world and in the world in

general. It is frustration, it

1:50:341:50:39

provokes harassment I think, and we

can, we must find solutions and I

1:50:391:50:45

think this campaign will make that

subject...

1:50:451:50:56

subject...

I can see in Leeds,

disagreement.

I think what the

1:50:591:51:03

letter does is ignore the notion of

consent. So what if somebody fancies

1:51:031:51:08

you, does that person have the right

to pursue you relentlessly as far as

1:51:081:51:12

sending text messages, forming and

stalking? If you do not give to

1:51:121:51:19

those advances your career could be

on the line. This is not fair to

1:51:191:51:24

women. This is a response to the

movement, all of these women coming

1:51:241:51:28

forward and talking about incidents

which happening previously, what we

1:51:281:51:34

are actually ignoring is the fact

that women, who have actually

1:51:341:51:37

suffered sexual harassment and

assault and so on and who have not

1:51:371:51:41

been able to come forward and not

taken part in the campaign, these

1:51:411:51:48

are women who will never be able to

articulate and express their

1:51:481:51:53

frustration at what happens to them.

Instead of concentrated on what the

1:51:531:51:57

men want, because we have to

understand that men, they are able

1:51:571:52:02

to exercise self-control especially

with their sexual orgies, why are we

1:52:021:52:07

taking that away from men? Why are

we not seen to men, control

1:52:071:52:12

yourselves! If a woman is not

interested she is not interested,

1:52:121:52:15

move on and leave her alone. This

letter giving a green light not just

1:52:151:52:19

of these men who want to engage in

unwanted sexual harassment but also

1:52:191:52:24

to victims. It is giving them the

notion that they cannot come

1:52:241:52:29

forward, that if they do come

forward they will be labelled as

1:52:291:52:32

attention seeking or awkward or a

prude. I think that is the mentality

1:52:321:52:37

we need to tackle. This letter will

cause more damage than it benefits.

1:52:371:52:43

I would like to hear what men think

of this letter who are watching

1:52:431:52:48

right now. Charlie, what do you

think, that this letter will cause a

1:52:481:52:53

lot of damage?

I totally agree and I

think it's really bizarre we are in

1:52:531:52:56

a place where are so many women feel

they need to the defence of men.

1:52:561:53:00

That is not what we need right now.

We need the conversation to keep

1:53:001:53:04

happening

1:53:041:53:09

happening around MeToo and not get

into protecting people who have

1:53:111:53:15

caused so much harm over the

centuries.

One saying there is a

1:53:151:53:20

massive difference between flirting,

chatting someone up and harassment

1:53:201:53:22

and it happens to women and men,

people of all sexes need to be

1:53:221:53:26

taught what is too far because a lot

of people do not understand. Another

1:53:261:53:31

one saying Catherine is spot on,

this will upset PC feminists, PS

1:53:311:53:36

please stop interrupting your guests

when you disagree with them, that

1:53:361:53:42

part is firmly! And one seeing this

letter is bonkers but feminists

1:53:421:53:47

career shaming pawn actors is also

pretty weak stuff, I don't know if

1:53:471:53:51

that is for you...

1:53:511:53:57

that is for you... Juliet is already

an number of feminists, members of

1:53:571:54:01

the MeToo campaigner who have not

got involved in the campaign who are

1:54:011:54:05

quite cross that there appears to be

a divide between women, what do you

1:54:051:54:10

say, because of your letter, what do

you say?

That is sad. Really, I am

1:54:101:54:17

not, that is not what I am saying,

the woman before said you say that,

1:54:171:54:21

I am not saying that. Poor men and

that women are victims. Of course I

1:54:211:54:28

am on the way of the women and of

the man and victims, it's important,

1:54:281:54:33

so important that she said that it,

that's a crime, where it is a crime,

1:54:331:54:47

sexual harassment is a crime,

harassment is a crime. We must

1:54:471:54:51

finish. I say that to women, to men.

To all the countries. It's all the

1:54:511:54:56

same.

1:54:561:55:02

same.

OK... I'm going to bring in

another signatory if I may, sexual

1:55:021:55:06

harassment in this country is not a

crime by the way. A French jealous

1:55:061:55:10

and columnist for the daily and

Sunday Telegraph, -- journalist and

1:55:101:55:15

columnist. You are a signatory is

that right?

Yes.

Why did you sign

1:55:151:55:22

it?

I signed it because I read the

letter, it was written by friends of

1:55:221:55:27

mine and it starts by saying rape is

a crime, sexual harassment in the

1:55:271:55:31

workplace is crying, it goes on and

saying what started as a useful

1:55:311:55:37

movement denouncing things which

were a problem has morphed into a

1:55:371:55:42

kind of online lynching of people

who cannot defend themselves and who

1:55:421:55:45

lose their jobs, who lose their

livelihoods, who sometimes are

1:55:451:55:49

forced to literally disappear and

there is a feeling that what was

1:55:491:55:54

sanitary has turned into a virtue

signalling one-minute hate.

I would

1:55:541:56:00

like Charlie and rosy to answer that

point, there are some men accused of

1:56:001:56:05

sexual harassment on social media

who have lost their jobs. There has

1:56:051:56:09

been no process, no legal process or

criminal process or human resources

1:56:091:56:13

process, you are simply told you are

not working for us because there has

1:56:131:56:16

been a deluge of messages on social

media, how do you respond?

I think

1:56:161:56:23

it's important for processes to be

in place but I am pretty much always

1:56:231:56:29

going to try and believe women when

they come forward and tell me

1:56:291:56:33

something bad has happened to them.

I haven't come across any instances

1:56:331:56:39

that I have personally found to be

problematic in terms of men losing

1:56:391:56:43

their jobs but I sure there are a

few out there, that have been I

1:56:431:56:46

don't know, carried out in ways that

other people would find to be an

1:56:461:56:52

issue. I suppose, we are still in a

place where a lot of people are not

1:56:521:57:03

able to even take their accusations

to trial and I just think we should

1:57:031:57:09

believe women when they say they

feel uncomfortable and support them

1:57:091:57:12

in any which way we can.

OK. I'm

going to leave it there, thank you

1:57:121:57:17

very much to all of you for coming

on the programme.

1:57:171:57:23

Let's go to Stockport now -

where police say they've

1:57:231:57:25

found a body in a garden,

after a woman told them she'd killed

1:57:251:57:28

a man and buried him

there "a number of years ago".

1:57:281:57:31

Judith Moritz is there for us.

1:57:311:57:34

Sunday afternoon this woman went

into a police station not far from

1:57:381:57:42

here and told police she had

allegedly killed a man and they

1:57:421:57:46

should search this property, the

search is going on here over the

1:57:461:57:50

last couple of days, last night

Greater Manchester Police said they

1:57:501:57:53

found human remains which have been

taken away for analysis. We do not

1:57:531:57:57

know the cause of death but they

have arrested a woman who is 63

1:57:571:58:02

years old on suspicion of murder.

They are going around the area

1:58:021:58:05

asking neighbours if they have any

information about the man who used

1:58:051:58:14

to live here 10-15 years ago by the

name of Kenneth Combs. That is all

1:58:141:58:17

we have at the moment but more as we

get it through the day.

1:58:171:58:20

On the programme tomorrow we speak

to parents who're battling

1:58:201:58:23

to keep their seriously ill 19 month

old son alive against

1:58:231:58:25

the hospitals advice.

1:58:251:58:28

Charities who work with drug users in Manchester explain how a new strain of the synthetic drug 'spice' is having a devastating effect on the city.

Victoria asks whether the law does enough to protect free speech in universities.

Plus there is reaction to an open letter signed by 100 French women which attacks recent feminist social media campaigns, arguing men should be allowed to 'hit on women' without being forced out of their jobs.