11/01/2018 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Thursday,

it's nine o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme

Our top story this morning -

the NHS is facing a watershed moment

where patients will be

failed unless the Government

provides more cash.

That's according to hospitals

and Ambulance Service leaders,

who say they can't cope

with the pressure they're under.

We've now reached a point

where we have to make a choice,

which is, do we want to preserve

those standards,

and that's what everybody in the NHS

would want, or do we abandon them?

And the only way we can preserve

those standards is if the NHS

and the health and care system

more widely

gets the long-term funding

settlement that it needs.

We'll ask doctors and health experts

what changes they'd like to see.

We will talk to a Conservative MP

who has had cancer twice as well.

Also this morning, plastic-free

aisles for supermarkets,

just one of the Government's ideas

for cracking down on waste.

But without tough laws to force

people to change their habits,

does the plan go far enough?

I quite understand, people

are impatient for change, so am I,

but we just needed to make sure

that every change

that we make we get right,

and that we carry people with us

in order to make sure

that it's lasting.

We'll have more details,

plus live coverage of Theresa May

as she unveils her full strategy

for the environment.

Plus YouTube cuts its business

ties with Logan Paul,

despite his apology

for posting a video of a body

at a suicide hotspot in Japan.

Hello, welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11 this morning.

Two things I want your

own experiences on today -

if you've been in hospital

this winter,

tell me your experiences -

good and bad.

And if you work in the NHS,

what's it been like

from your point of view?

What is it like right now? Plenty of

NHS workers watch our programme.

Plus, we definitely want

your reaction

to the Government's plans

for cutting plastic pollution.

Our top story today -

dire warnings from the people

who run England's hospitals.

Patients left for hours

on trollies in corridors,

a critical shortage of beds and sick

people stuck in ambulances

unable even to get inside.

Today's warning from NHS Providers

is the latest of several over recent

days and paints a grim picture

of doctors and nurses

working in unsafe conditions.

The Government says plans

are in place to cope,

but practitioners say this

is a watershed moment for the NHS.

Our health correspondent

Dominic Hughes has more.

It's already been a tough few weeks

for the NHS across the UK.

Cold weather and a rising number

of flu cases have contributed

to pressures that A&E staff

have described as the worst

they've ever seen.

The Prime Minister and the First

Minister in Scotland have both had

to apologise to patients

who've faced cancelled operations

and long waits.

The pressure of winter on the NHS

has been unrelenting.

In Scotland, at the end of December,

just 78% of patients at A&E

were seen within four hours,

well below the 95% target.

Across the UK, the number of people

coming down with flu has increased

dramatically in recent weeks,

and many of the patients attending

A&E are older and sicker,

meaning they require more care.

Now, according to the organisation

that represents health providers,

such as hospitals and ambulance

trusts in England,

the whole service is at a watershed.

We have now clearly reached

the point where the NHS cannot meet

the standards of care that we would,

all of us at the NHS,

ministers included, want to provide.

So the key question is,

do we abandon those standards,

and none of us in the NHS want to

do that, or does the Government make

the decisions that it needs to make

about the long-term funding?

And it needs to make

those decisions quickly.

This is one of the strongest

warnings yet about the strain

being faced by the NHS this winter,

and it will add to the pressure

on ministers to build a consensus

over the long-term future

of the health and care service -

and to do so quickly.

Dominic Hughes, BBC News.

Nick Boles is Conservative MP for

Grantham.

He has been treated

by the NHS for cancer twice

and has an interest in how

the NHS should be funded.

As we all do, actually. Thank you

for talking to us. Do you agree the

NHS in England is in crisis?

It is

having a very difficult time. I

think that, in a sense, we have

these moments sometimes during

winters, and at least this time I

think that the NHS has prepared

early, has not pretended it is not

going to happen, they have thought

about it, but it is leading to a

whole load of decisions to delay

some treatments, cancel some

operations, that are hugely

unfortunate, incredibly distressing

to the people involved, and I won't

us to get way point where this

doesn't have to happen again.

How

big do think the gap is between what

the NHS has been ask to deliver and

the funding your government is

giving it?

We have put a lot more

money in, but clearly not enough.

Everyone says that. Don't you wonder

why the Government isn't putting in

what is necessary, then?

To be fair,

and there some intense conversations

with says Simon Stevens, who runs

the NHS, about what is required and

what could be delivered from

productivity and efficiency changes,

we did agree a great deal more money

for improvements in the NHS.

But

still not enough.

But it has not

been enough, partly because of an

ageing population and medical

technology is becoming more

expensive. Sometimes these things

are not always possible to

anticipate.

There is a suspicion

from some voters that the

Conservative government, when it

comes to decent long-term funding of

the NHS, sees it as a black hole,

rather than a good investment for

the health of its citizens.

I have

never met a Conservative politician

who has expressed that view in

private, let alone in public.

Make

the political decisions to put the

money there, you made a decision to

give £1 billion to the DUP, 3

billion but aside for Brexit. You

can find the money if you want to.

And the Chancellor made a decision

in the budget to put more money into

the NHS because he anticipated that

the winter would be difficult, so we

do make these decisions. What is

required is not individual decisions

that particular moments to bail out

a particular problem. What we need

is a long-term funding solution that

the British people can believe in

and trusting, and because they

believe in it and trust in it are

therefore prepared to pay a bit more

in tax to support it, and that is

what I am proposing today. There is

now a growing recognition that that

is what we need to move towards, we

cannot lurch from one funding crisis

to another, this problem will never

go away, the costs are only going to

go up over the next 20 years, and we

need to put in place a long-term

package of support for the NHS.

So

your idea is that national insurance

would become national health

insurance - how much extra would you

put on national insurance in order

to fund, in a sustainable way, the

NHS in England?

There is a debate

about this, and I am not myself an

expert, but we currently spend about

9% of national income on health and

the public element of social care,

so the taxpayer commitment to social

care. Over the next few years, most

people, most experts, most of the

studies believe we will have to move

to something of the order of 10-11%

of GDP. And that is a substantial

increase. Now, I believe that if

people knew that when they looked at

their payslip, there was a line that

said national health insurance, if

they knew that money could only go

to support national health care and

social care, that they would be

willing to pay a bit more. And it is

not going to have to be an enormous

amount more, but there will have to

be some increases. We might have to

extend national health insurance to

unand

unand income. -- unearned. There are

extensions that might be necessary

to ensure the NHS has this money.

As

I said in the introduction, you have

had cancer twice. What do you think

when you hear that a hospital in

Oxford is thinking of cutting

chemotherapy cycles for its

patients?

It would be appalling that

were necessary, and we need to make

sure that we don't ever find

ourselves in that situation again,

but we will not do that by just

having a short-term row about money

that is or is not going in this

year. We need to have a long-term

solution.

Thank you very much, good

to see you well.

Thank you very

much.

Nick Boles, Conservative MP

for Grantham.

Annita McVeigh is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

of the rest of the day's news.

The Prime Minister's setting out

plans to tackle plastic pollution,

by eradicating all avoidable waste

within 25 years.

Two ideas among the proposals

include asking every supermarket

to have an aisle of goods

with no plastic wrappings,

as well as extending the 5p

charge for carrier bags

to all retailers in England.

But environmentalists say

Theresa May's plans are worthless

unless they're written into law.

Here's our environment

correspondent Roger Harribin.

A pod of short-finned pilot whales.

In the Atlantic waters off Europe,

as elsewhere,

they have to share

the ocean with plastic.

There's huge public concern

about plastic litter since

David Attenborough's Blue Planet

series showed sea creatures

eating plastic waste.

The Prime Minister will surf

that wave of concern

with her first environment speech.

She's setting out a timetable

to abolish single-use plastics.

There'll be money for research

into smarter plastics and more

plastic-free aisles in supermarkets.

The countryside should also benefit

from the 25-year-old environment

plan also being published.

This is the UK's prime site

for nightingales in Kent.

The local council wants

to build much-needed homes

on part of this site.

But green groups are expecting

the Government to protect

existing sites like this.

They also want the Government

to follow its promise to improve

other areas degraded by

development or careless farming.

They want commitments that ministers

can't wriggle out of.

Environmentalists welcome

the Government's plans

to restore Britain's nature.

But the problem, they say,

is that so far it's just a plan.

To really convince them,

ministers would need

to introduce legislation,

and there seems no sign of that.

Roger Harrabin, BBC News, Kent.

A woman whose father has been

missing for years has been

charged with murder after a body

was discovered in the garden

of her home in Stockport.

Barbara Coombes' father has been

missing for more than a decade.

The 63-year-old has also been

charged with preventing

a lawful burial and fraud.

During their investigation police

officers have told neighbours

that Mr Coombes would have

been in his 80s

when he disappeared in 2005.

Police in Paris are

hunting two armed robbers

who stole jewellery worth

millions of pounds

from the city's Ritz Hotel.

Armed with small axes,

thieves smashed windows

to gain access to display cases,

before snatching the jewels

from the ground floor of the hotel.

Three people were arrested

while trying to flee the scene.

Rescue teams in southern California

are searching for survivors of the

mudslides that swept away homes in

the town of Montecito. 17 people are

known to have died in Santa Barbara

County, and more than 20 others are

still and accounted for. Many places

remain inaccessible, and more than

100 homes have been destroyed.

YouTube has cut business ties

with the popular vlogger Logan Paul,

after he posted a video showing

the body of an apparent

suicide victim in Japan.

The US star's channels were removed

from its Google Preferred programme,

which is lucrative for advertising.

YouTube says it has also put on hold

original projects with him.

Paul posted the footage

with a man's body on December 31st,

triggering widespread criticism.

Mixed news on the high street as the

Christmas trading figures are

released.

Marks and Spencer reported a fall

in sales of both clothing

and food in the run-up to Christmas.

The high-street giant

blamed a tough October.

Meanwhile, sales at John Lewis grew,

but its owner warned profits will be

dragged down by attempts to maintain

competitive against its rivals.

More figure are due

out this morning.

That's a summary of the latest

BBC News, more at 9:30.

I want to hear from you this morning

if you have been in hospital this

winter, or a member of your family

has, tell us your experience, good

or bad. Chris says my wife's mother

was admitted in December, eight and

a half hours later she had a CT scan

and then an emergency operation. I

have to agree with the headlines

that A&E felt and looked like a

battle ground surgery. I saw one

female doctor so stressed that she

was running up and down looking for

her next patient, saying, why didn't

they tell me where he is? Total

chaos. So yes, your experiences, if

you or a member of your family have

been in hospital this winter, good

and bad. You can e-mail tweet,

WhatsApp, Facebook, and if you text,

we will have to charge you, we

apologise for that!

Jess with the sport now. We're going

to talk about the video assistant

referee last night.

0-0 it finished between Chelsea and

Arsenal in the league cup. The

referee consulted the video

assistant referee on two occasions.

Here is one of them. The referee was

happy with his original decision not

to award a penalty in this case. A

similar system is used in rugby and

cricket and has become part of the

fun experience. But in football,

fans are not able to watch the Var

process, which some fans say is

frustrating. We will wait to see if

fans think this is a positive step.

Let's talk about cricket. England

have named their test squad to face

New Zealand?

Yes, I think it was clear after the

loss of the Ashes that England were

struggling with click bowlers Down

Under. They have we called Mark

Wood. Liam Livingstone from

Lancashire has also been named.

James Vince keeps its place in the

squad.

But Gary Ballance has been dropped.

Just a few weeks after entertaining

us in I'm a celebrity, Amir Khan is

going back into the ring?

Yes, two years out of the ring. He

is ready to make a comeback. His

opponent will be named next week for

the fight in April in Liverpool. It

is interesting how, after years of

slapping each other off and

supposedly not liking each other,

Khan and promoter Eddie Hearn have

decided to work together. He has

signed a three fight deal with

Matchroom promotions. Khan has

enjoyed a surge in popularity in

recent weeks after appearing on the

reality TV show.

You are going to be anxious, you are

going to be nervous. Maybe people

saw more of that in the real side of

me. Maybe they thought I was

arrogant. I had to be confident in

front of my opponent, otherwise

people would think, who is -- he

would think, who is this when I'm

fighting? People got to see the real

side of me away from boxing. It is

lovely to come back and have so much

love from the British public.

This

is all the more exciting because we

may be moving closer to the British

super fight between him and Kell

Brook.

I have not forgotten strawberry

gate! Thank you.

In just over an hour,

the Prime Minister will set out how

the Government plans to safeguard

the Environment for the next 25

years, in what is being seen

as a new focus on green issues.

One of the key elements of today's

speech will be on how we can

reduce our plastic waste.

Measures include plastic-free

aisles in supermarkets,

possible charges for single-use

items like takeaway containers,

the extension of the 5p plastic bag

charge to small shops in England

and Government funding

for plastics innovation.

Labour claim the proposals

are "cynical attempt at rebranding

the Tories' image" in order

to woo young voters.

Well, Theresa May is not the only

Conservative leader to make

commitments on the environment.

David Cameron promised

his Government would be

the "greenest ever".

But despite despite this famous "hug

a husky" moment, he faced criticism

for not doing enough.

Let's talk to Laura Round

from the conservative

think tank, Bright Blue.

Dustin Benton from the Green

Alliance, which campaigns

on environmental policy,

and has been critical

of previous government's

achievements in the area.

And the chair of the parliamentary

Environmental Audit Committee,

the Labour MP Mary Creagh.

Welcome all of you. Why is Mrs May

talking about the environment for

the first time?

I think the election

last year showed the Conservatives

have lost a lot of support from

younger voters, especially voters

based in metropolitan areas who are

more socially liberal, and which

polling shows, really care about

environmental issues. When we asked

under 40 voters what issues they

would like politicians to speak more

about, the environment was second,

well ahead of housing. For under 28

euros, climate change was the top

issue.

So really important for

potential future electoral success.

Theresa May's former director of

human occasions said today that

Andrea Leadsom was told to make the

plan brilliant parliament as boring

as possible, Mary Creagh, do you

welcome the plans?

We have been

waiting nearly three years. It is a

22 year environment plan. You

mentioned in your introduction the

hog a husky moment, that manifested

as cut the group -- cut the green

clap.

Let's talk about the ideas

being talked about today.

Do you

welcome them? The Prime Minister has

a target to end voidable plastic.

Booing it is difficult to find one.

Is a plastic tampon applicators?

Lawro, do you know what I voidable

plastic is?

This is the problem. We

have had is the pre-briefing. In 25

years I will be 75, the Prime

Minister will be 86. We can't wait

to tackle the tide of plastic waste

in our ocean. We also need to be

looking holistically at how we

tackle climate change and how we

meet the current recycling targets,

which is 50% recycled by 2020, which

we are currently set to miss.

Mary

is right. There is a short-term

needs to get things done. If

government wants to solve a big part

of the plastics waste problem, they

can introduce a return scheme. You

could do that today. We know from

our research that would cut a third

of the plastic going into the

oceans. That is really effective and

achievable. But I don't think we

should start entirely with cynicism.

This is the first major speech are

sitting Prime Minister has made

since 1984. The ambition, we hope,

will be really good. I am keen the

Prime Minister is moving the UK in

the right direction. The real

challenge will be, what will this

deliver within the lifetime of this

set of ministers? We don't need to

wait 25 years.

The young voters that

Mrs May desperately needs, if 25

years really is the target, the

running time, they will be in their

mid-40s, 50s, once they?

I suppose

that's true but it is also about

people growing up now learning more

about politics.

525 years? Is that

the nature of her personality or is

there something else going on? --

Whiley 25 years?

It is an ambitious

plan. It is a positive thing.

Could

it be done in ten or 15 years?

There

were things we need to get done. It

has taken us a long time to get to

the point where we have got 10% of

the UK species at risk of extension.

It will take some time to get us out

of this. We have to make sure we

don't wait 25 years to start making

a difference. We could, for example,

bring forward the 2040 petrol and

diesel vehicles ban to 2030. That

would cut UK oil imports in half and

massively improve air quality. That

is achievable now.

It is unfair to

say that everything won't happen for

25 years.

I didn't mean that. I

didn't express it very well. It

could be a ten year plan. It will be

difficult to hold this government

accountable in 25 years to see what

they have achieved, as Mary says,

Theresa May will be 80 odd.

We have

had the green growth strategy before

Christmas. We have got the carbon

plans every five years. We have to

look at climate change targets. The

government needs to look at itself

as the largest purchaser of goods

and services in the country. We have

just done an audit of the Ministry

of Justice. 1% of their vehicles

across the prison and probationers

state are electric. They are missing

their own targets internally now. I

am keen to see the details of this

plant, not just the headlines, which

are about plastic. We want to know

about biodiversity, landscape

restoration, forestry.

We may get

some of that in the speech.

Extending the 5p charge is one of

the measures being introduced.

We

called her that.

Millions into

research to develop less harmful

plastic.

We have bio plastics. We

have Oxy degradable additives that

go into plastic bags.

The entire

plastics system needs remodelling.

Are we using the ingenuity that we

have got? The biggest threat to the

environment is Brexit, which sets

are air pollution targets, waste

targets. We need an environmental

protection act, which my committee

called for a year ago, to make sure

we don't lose those protections as

we leave.

Mary is absolutely right

about that. We need the commitments

that have been made. We need to get

on and do what we can do today. We

know that right and manufacturers

mixed lots of different types of

plastics together and make products

that are not recyclable. We could do

with that today.

What about using

some of the International aid budget

to help countries reduce plastic

pollution in the sea, most of which

comes from rivers in Africa and

Asia?

That is a positive

announcement that will resonate with

a lot of voters. Again, because I

have done a lot of polling on this,

the British population are very

proud of our commitment and are

setting a global example on these

issues.

issues. Especially conservative

voters who voted Remain. It is a

good way of reaching out to those

voters and show that we not moving

away it.

We want the aid budget to

go to the poorest people on the

planet. Eight of those ten rivers

are in middle income countries,

China and Vietnam. We don't want the

aid budget going to China. We want

the aid budget going to Niger and

Nigeria, which are pollution

problems. We can ask middle-income

countries to do with themselves.

We

are told that most of these are just

plans, which will be consulted on.

There is no talk of legislation.

Will that be enough to change

things?

It won't be enough. We need

legal commitments and a new

environmental regulator that will

hold the government to account. We

need to replicate some of the

structures of the EU to give

citizens the right to hold the

government to account.

Looking

forward to hearing what our viewers

think. The Prime Minister expected

to give her speech at about half

past ten. We will bring that to you

live.

The trial is resuming

in the case of Barry Bennell,

the former football coach who's

accused of sexually abusing boys.

Bennell, who's now known

as Richard Jones, faces 48

sex offence charges,

which he denies.

We can speak now to our sports news

reporter, David Ornstein,

who's outside Liverpool Crown Court.

What happpened in court yesterday?

Victoria, yesterday marked the start

of evidence against Mr Bennell, with

the prosecution described as a

predatory and devious paedophile.

The testimony of the first witness

was harrowing, emotional and it was

played out to the court by an

interview he conducted with the

police. He met Mr Bennell, he said,

when he played for a youth team in

the north-west of England in the

early 1980s, aged between 11 and 12,

and Bennell was said to be a scout

from Manchester City. He would

always flashes eyes at you and make

you feel like you are special will

stop everybody wanted to be in

football, everybody wanted to please

him. This man said that he and a

number of other top players were

hand-picked by Mr Bennell to stay at

his home above a video shop he

owned. But it is where the alleged

abuse began. He said there were two

bunk beds and a double bed in a room

which Mr Bennell would share with

two boys. They would play fight,

watch movies, then the lights went

out and live music started. He

talked of songs by Billy Joe well

and the Steve Miller band, but

mostly incantation, the song. That

was playing well the abuse was

taking place. He said that music

still sends chills down his spine. I

cannot stand chorus, and aftershave

he alleged Mr Bennell would wear. He

was also abused at eight to at

Butlins in North Wales. He woke to

find Mr Bennell behind him. He also

talked of experiences when he felt

the bed vibrating on Mr Bennell's

property vibrating as others were

abused. Nobody spoke about this but

he said there was a distinctive look

among the boys. It was almost like

an untold rule. We didn't want to

spoil our chances. I want to make

it, I want to play for City. You

knew you didn't say anything. He had

a big power hold over us, which was

pretty horrific. He said he was

abused tens if not hundreds of times

over a three-year period. He learned

how to shut down his body and

emotions. He would have tears

running down his cheeks. It didn't

stop him. Other than his wife, this

witness said nobody knew of his

experience until November of 2016,

when he was watching this very

programme, the Victoria Derbyshire

show, when other alleged victims

talk of their experiences. Under

cross-examination yesterday, he

rejected the idea there were

financial motives behind his case.

He said he was not in this for

money. The court was later played

the transcript of police interviews

with Mr Bennell, in which he denied

abusing this individual. He said he

was one who got away with it. He

thought he might be one who would

succumb to his grooming process. He

was not a victim though. He was the

priority... The priority, Mr Bennell

said, was another boy, who he

described as his favourite.

What are

we expecting in court today?

We are

expecting further evidence. We

should hear from another witness.

Let's recapture. Before this trial

Mr Bennell admitted seven charges of

child six abuse involving three boys

aged between 11 and 14. He denies a

further 48 charges against 11 boys

ranging between eight and 14, and

between 1979 and 1991. The court

heard earlier in this trial that Mr

Bennell served sentences in prison

in England and the USA for abusing

children. But he claims with this

particular trial, that he is a

victim of a malicious campaign. The

trial continues and is expected to

last around eight weeks.

Thank you.

Still to come,

as NHS bosses say they're struggling

to cope, we'll ask if the only

answer is to pump more money

into the service.

We want your experiences, if you or

a family member has been in

hospital, what is it like for you?

And we'll be discussing equal pay,

after the resignation of the BBC's

China editor in protest at the fact

that she wasn't being paid the same

as the two other male

international editors.

We will talk to one professor.

Time for the latest

news - here's Annita.

The BBC News

headlines this morning.

Hospitals are struggling to cope

and need long-term funding,

according to health bosses.

NHS Providers, which represents

acute hospitals and

Ambulance Services in England,

says standards of care cannot be

met without without more money.

The Department of Health

and Social Care says

the NHS was given top priority

in the last budget.

One Conservative MP says he wants

to see a change in the way

in which the NHS is funded.

If people knew when they looked at

their payslip that there was a line

that said national health insurance,

if they knew that that money,

legally, could only go to support

the national health care and social

care, they would be willing to pay a

bit more. It is not going to have to

be an enormous amount more, but

there will have to be some

increases.

A woman whose father has been

missing for years has been

charged with murder after a body

was discovered in the garden

of her home in Stockport.

Barbara Coombes' father has been

missing for more than a decade.

The 63-year-old has also been

charged with preventing

a lawful burial and fraud.

During their investigation police

officers have told neighbours

that Mr Coombes would have

been in his 80s

when he disappeared in 2005.

Police in Paris are

hunting two armed robbers

who stole jewellery worth

millions of pounds

from the city's Ritz Hotel.

Armed with small axes,

thieves smashed windows

to gain access to display cases,

before snatching the jewels

from the ground floor of the hotel.

Three people were arrested

while trying to flee the scene.

Rescue teams in southern California

are searching for survivors

of the mudslides that swept away

homes in the town of Montecito.

17 people are known to have

died in Santa Barbara County,

and more than 20 others

are still unaccounted for.

Many places remain inaccessible,

and more than 100 homes

have been destroyed.

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

Thank you very much, Annita. Summary

messages about your experiences of

being in

hospital, Margaret says, I

broke my wrist and went to Aberdeen

A&E, my wrist was manipulated into

praise and sedation. The attention I

received was first class. Javad says

I broke both legs, the staff were

brilliant, but I could see there was

a lot of pressure on them, I would

love to pay extra money through

national insurance contributions,

but I believe the Government was

taking us towards private health

insurance. Alan says, if every GP

surgery opened longer each day, that

would take pressure off A&E.

Kimberly says, so again those who

pay taxes need to pay more, but what

is not fine is those who do not work

will receive the same services

without paying into the system. That

is not a plan, by the way, Kimberly,

it is a suggestion from one

Conservative MP. More about the NHS

in the next half-hour, your

experiences are very welcome. But

Jessica is back with the sport.

Headlines this morning: the draw for

the first Grand Slam of the year,

the Australian Open, have taken

place. Johanna Konta will play

Madison Brengle in the first-round,

and in the men's single straw, no

Andy Murray, recovering from

surgery, Kyle Edmund will be

Britain's male representative,

playing US Open finalist Kevin

Anderson, a big match. No goals in

the first leg of the EFL Cup

semifinal between Arsenal and

Chelsea, the video assistant referee

system created the biggest talking

point. Martin Andersson consulted it

for two penalty claims but was

satisfied with the evidence not to

award a spot kick. And England have

called up Lancashire batsman Liam

Livingstone for their series against

New Zealand next month. Fast bowler

Mark Wood has also been recalled

after injury. A full bulletin for

you just after ten o'clock.

Good morning, Thursday morning,

welcome to the programme. Give us

more money or patients will suffer,

that is what NHS bosses in England

are saying today. The warning comes

amid reports of patients being left

on trolleys while ambulances queue

up outside.

The Royal College of Nursing says

there are currently 40,000 vacant

posts. Then there is these zoo of

money. NHS Providers say they got

less than they needed in November's

budget. -- the issue of money. The

Government says the NHS is a top

priority. The number of doctors

being trained is up by a quarter.

But Chris Hobson from NHS Providers

explains how the current situation

is affecting patients.

The NHS can

no longer deliver the standards of

care in the constitution, so we have

an important decision to make, do we

abandon those standards, which were

incredibly hard fought to gain those

standards in the 2000s, or do we

make decisions on the long-term

funding of the NHS and social care

to ensure it has enough money to

meet those standards? We need the

Government to make those decisions

this year, by the time of the Budget

at the latest. For the first time

ever last, the NHS missed all of the

key standards on A&E, elected

surgery, ambulance waiting times,

cancer waiting times. We set a new

trajectory to recover the A&E

standard, which we will now miss. We

have reached the point where the NHS

cannot meet the standards of care

that we would all of us, ministers

included, want to provide.

Olivia Szepietowski

is a doctoral researcher

who specialises in obesity.

Tim Gardner is from

the Health Foundation,

a charity which carries

out research and policy

analysis into health care.

We are also hoping to talk to

underneath assist, but he is

slightly delayed, will talk to him

after ten o'clock. -- hoping to talk

to an anaesthetist. Do you agree

with NHS Providers that this is a

watershed moment for the NHS?

So

research has found that the NHS is

going through the most steer decade

in all of its history. It is seven

years into a massive funding

squeeze. -- most

squeeze. -- most austere. The

Government did provide more money in

the Budget, but that is less than

half of the minimum funding gap that

our analysis found was going to hit

services.

How much extra would be

NHS need, 28-19, for example?

NHS need, 28-19, for example? --

2018-19.

Before the Budget, there

was a gap of £4 billion, and the

Government found some money, but

still at least £2 billion, and that

is before we start asking the NHS to

do more, rather than just maintain

current standards for more people.

Can you describe your experiences of

working alongside doctors, nurses

and patients, treating people with

obesity?

Absolutely. Conditions are

extremely stretched in hospitals at

the moment. As we have heard on the

news, patients are struggling to get

a bed when they need it, and it is

affecting my specialty, bariatric

surgery, surgery for weight loss,

and to improve other things like

diabetes and high blood pressure and

cholesterol. Unfortunately, these

kind of surgeries are not seen as

essential to many different local

authorities and trusts, and despite

the amazing effects that they have,

and the people that they can really

help, we are seeing that the

surgeries are being delayed or

cancelled, and often not just once

but multiple times for one

individual.

Because they are not

urgent?

Exactly, they are not seen

as urgent, but at what point does it

become agent? When someone needs an

operation, they need that operation.

They have been found to have the

requirements, and so it should

really be that people should not be

delayed so much.

Should patients pay

for things like gastric bands, for

example?

It is an interesting

argument. Gastric bands have been

shown to be hugely effective in

treating people with obesity, and

particularly gastric bypass and

sleeves. Unfortunately, there is

this huge stigma around obesity, and

it is seen as being the individual's

fault. My research focuses on

genetic factors in obesity and

diabetes. One of the amazing results

we see is that, within hours or days

of a surgery, somebody who was

diabetic before is no longer

diabetic, and that can save huge

amounts of money for the NHS. So

these operations, whilst they do

have an overhead for the surgery

itself and the follow-up, they

actually save the NHS loads of

money, because those people don't

have diabetes, they don't require

blood pressure medication and so on.

Is there anything else that the NHS,

putting money to one side, which is

difficult in this conversation, but

anything else the NHS could be doing

to help itself?

So as Olivia

mentioned, things are incredibly

tough within the health service at

the moment, we have seen it on the

news throughout the last few days.

Unfortunately, in terms of quick fix

solutions, the NHS has done?

Everything can do. Part of that

response is to cancel some of the

less urgent but still very important

procedures that we know patients can

benefit from and that have big cost

and complications for patients

themselves, but it is the only

realistic option, in order to cope

with the tide of urgency needed that

it is being presented with.

And it

is not just the less urgent stuff, I

take your point, a hospital in

Oxford potentially considering

getting chemotherapy sessions. In

order to free up staff, for example.

They have not made the main -- final

decision, but it must be drastic.

This is not simply about money, the

Government did find extra funding,

specifically for winter pressures,

but it was only announced, really,

less than a week before winter

began.

350 million.

That is right,

so not that helpful. So one of the

big issues facing the health service

is staffing. We need to have a

robust, long-term plan, and a

long-term approach for how we train,

recruit the right staff with the

right skills and get them in the

right places. We also need to do

better at retaining the staff that

we have got, and that seemed to be

the problem in Oxford, not not

enough money, but simply not enough

staff to be able to run the service

safely.

A spokesman for the

Department of Health and Social Care

are acknowledged there were

problems, we know there is pressure

on A&E departments, we are grateful

to all the staff for their work in

challenging circumstances. It says

plans are in place for extra money

for council run test and was so

people can be moved out of hospital

more quickly, and the single biggest

expansion in the number of doctor

training places, 25% in the coming

years. The current model does not

work, that seems to be the

consensus, and Jeremy Hunt,

England's Health Secretary, has

talked about a long-term sustainable

model. What might that look like?

You might not have the answer, it is

fair enough to say it, because it

may be above all of our pay grades,

but what do think?

I am not sure

there is consensus that the model

does not work. Easy is that the NHS

is currently facing, funding

shortfall, staffing shortages, the

growing needs of an ageing, growing,

more sick population, no country in

Europe is immune from any of these

issues. And all of these countries

are facing the same issues as we

are. The model is fundamentally

sound, there is quite a lot of

research that shows that no type of

health system performs universally

better than any other type of health

system. Go back 20 years, when there

was quite substantial funding and

staffing increases for the NHS in

England, and we saw some quite big

improvements in quality of care

flowing from that, some other big

advances.

So it is mostly about more

money.

The model is fine, it is

about staffing and funding it

properly.

What I would add is that

it should not be a party political

view, it should be about

coordinating a cross-party and

moving forward to try and make the

NHS a sustainable as possible. It is

reaching its 70th anniversary this

year, and we want to see a blast for

another 70.

Thank you both very

much.

Police have arrested two men after

CCTV stills were circulated as part

of the investigation into the murder

of the Jay Patel in North London.

The two men, aged 15 and 16, were

arrested on suspicion of violent

disorder. Mr Patel died in hospital

last week after being attacked

outside his shop. Two teenagers have

been arrested.

Coming up,

YouTube has cut business

ties with Logan Paul,

the hugely popular vlogger

who posted a video showing

the body of an apparent

suicide victim in Japan.

We will talk about that before ten.

Equal pay has been in the news again

this week after the high-profile

resignation of the BBC's

China Editor and the publication

of figures showing a number of large

companies have gender pay gaps.

Anyone who thinks they are being

treated unfairly can take their case

to an employment tribunal,

but figures seen by the BBC's

Reality Check show very few of these

cases are actually resolved

by the courts.

Chris Morris from the BBC's Reality

Check is here to explain why.

Really interesting what you found.

Yeah, you can go to employment

tribunal is for a variety of

reasons. We were looking at cases of

equal pay. In data stretching back

to 20 11,000 and thousands of people

every year have begun cases relating

to equal pay. -- stretching back to

2000 11,000 and thousands of cases.

We know very little about the

outcomes because the number of

successful complaints in that

period, since 2011, are so small,

just a handful, but statistically

they are recorded as 0% every year.

0% are successful every year. But

when you look at on successful

complaints, that is also 0%. So none

of these cases come to a public

conclusion. What is happening is

something called dismissal on

withdrawal. What that means is

perhaps the two parties come to a

private conclusion outside the

tribunal, or simply the employee

withdraws the case. We don't know

very much at all about those

outcomes.

When they settle out of

the tribunal environment, they are

usually subject to confidentiality

clauses?

Yes. There is no

requirement to make that conclusion

public. And of course what that

means is we know very little about

how many cases of unequal pay are

actually onerous. If you look at

other tribunal on things like

discrimination on age or disability,

at least there is a proportion of

cases that do come to a public

conclusion in one way or another.

For equal pay, 0% successful and

unsuccessful.

Incredible. Thank you.

Professor Elizabeth Schafer

launched legal proceedings

against Royal Holloway,

University of London, over the pay

gaps between professors.

Caroline Underhill is the head

of equal pay at Thompsons

Solicitors, has worked

on thousands of equal pay cases,

and has over 30 years' experience

working as a barrister.

Doreen Reeves, employment solicitor

at Slater and Gordon,

believes the answer is having a more

open culture around

talking about pay rather

than using tribunals.

Welcome all of you. I will start

with Professor Schaeffer. You have

gone through the tribunal process

yourself, briefly. What were you

arguing?

Yes, I went to the tribunal

about equal pay. I was on average

being paid, I was looking out of the

averages and I worked out I was well

adrift of the male professorial

average salary. I went to the

tribunal about that. I'm not

surprised at the figures you have

quoted. Going to the tribunal is a

very tough process. It is tough

emotionally and intellectually, and

you have to be incredibly tenacious.

You collected information and

evidence that amounted to, that

filled 120 files. Then you have to

be cross-examined. Then you have to

hear employer say potentially not

good enough to be paid as paid as

much as your employers. That does

sound challenging? It is

extraordinary the amount of evidence

you need. You are trying to prove a

point. You have to be comic and

historian, document yourself, look

at everything you have ever done and

prove how valuable you are. -- you

have to become and historian.

have to become and historian. My

judgment rent to 95 pages as well.

Not exactly a light read. Dealing

with the sheer amount of evidence. I

am used to conference situations,

being in public and speeding and

then being asked to defend my point

of view. That process for some

people would be, I think, quite

difficult. The whole process of the

tribunal is very challenging, yeah.

Let's bring in Caroline Underhill.

Statistically from 2011 no cases

were successful or on successful.

What does that suggest we should do

in the future?

We should make the

procedure simpler. We should look at

trying to make the law simpler. And

we should also look at placing

greater emphasis on pay transparency

and negotiation within employers,

because one of the reasons that we

don't have many cases that go

through to full hearing is the

length of time it takes to get to a

final resolution on an equal pay

case. 11 years is not uncommon.

It

took four years to get a judgment in

the Professor's case. Doreen, do you

think judgment should be avoided

altogether?

We need to work towards

a culture where there is less of a

cloak of pay secrecy in the

industry.

Do you think we are doing

this because big companies will have

to reveal a gender pay gap by April?

Yes, that is one way they assess

average salaries for men and women

over a period of time. But with

equal pay it is about looking at

what you are being paid at the same

time as you are in a job as a male.

We need to work towards a culture

where there is more transparency

about how much you are being paid at

work.

So employees simply talk to

each other?

Yes, at the moment you

can only ask a male employee about

your pay if you believe you are

discriminated against on the grounds

of your six. It is not as if you can

have a culture where you are openly

discussing your pay.

You smile that

that when Doreen suggested that. ?

Don't think it is just about

employees talking to each other.

Employees -- employers have

responsibility to be more

transparent not only about what

individuals are paid but why they

are paid what they are paid, what

the rate is for the job. What is it

that makes somebody worth more than

another? These are very difficult

questions.

They are. It is very

subjective.

It is. That is one of

the unfairness is. Because generally

speaking people believe when they

work for an employer that they will

be treated fairly and it won't be

completely subjective.

completely subjective. One of the

problems with equal pay is the

pressure and force of the market.

The market is not fair.

Professor,

briefly tell's the outcome for your

case -- Mike Towell us. And I would

ask you for your advice to others.

I

would also add that fairness is not

what the employment tribunal deals

with. The employment tribunal deals

with law and equal pay. One of the

first things the judge said in my

tribunal, if you want to argue about

fair pay, this is not the place to

do it.

You wanted to argue about

equal pay, didn't you?

Yes. But what

I was really after was a transparent

system. The situation, when I went

to the tribunal, was there were no

criteria whatsoever to indicate why

anyone might get a pay rise. Of

course what was happening was people

who felt more confident about what

they were doing, they were stating

pay rises in confident terms and

indeed securing pay rises, whereas

other people, who tended to be

women, not exclusively, were not

doing that. So actually getting the

judge to say there needs to be

transparent criteria for pay, that

is what I was going to the tribunal

for.

And he said that?

O yeah, he

said it loud and clear in my

judgment.

Was it worth it?

It was

worth it but it was an extraordinary

journey. Personally I found it quite

empowering. I found that at the end

I felt more confident about the

value I was delivering. But I would

say that if you are going to even

think about going to the employment

tribunal, you need to think like a

lawyer. You may be very upset but

you have to think like you are

playing chess, you have to construct

a case, documented, get evidence,

produce an argument, ask questions

of people around informally... What

do you get paid? Asked over coffee,

if you can. Very difficult to do in

our culture. And you have to be

absolutely tenacious. One of my

friends, who is a lawyer, said the

whole system expects you to give up.

If you haven't given up they were

probably offer you a settlement the

day beef your -- before the tribunal

starts. The important piece of

advice he gave me was, do not take

it personally. It is like a chess

game.

Thank you very much.

Thank you all. We will bring you the

latest news and sport in a moment.

YouTube vlogger Logan Paul as had

his channels downgraded by YouTube.

He was on a trip to Japan. He and

his friends were at the base of

Mount Fuji, where people are known

to take their own lives. As part of

a video he was blogging, you showed

a video of somebody who had

apparently taken their own life. He

said later on that it was to raise

awareness for suicide and suicide

prevention. But in the video it

shows in joking and looking shocked.

The video stayed up for quite a

while and got millions of views.

YouTube didn't actually take it

down. It was Logan Paul who took it

down after much criticism from the

YouTube and vlogger community. Now

YouTube have come out and said they

will no longer effectively promote

his work on what they call their

Google Preferred programme, where

brands target big stars with

advertising. His channel is still

up. He has still got millions of

subscribers. And since that video

was posted he gained more than

80,000 more subscribers. Technically

speaking because the video is still

up, he can still make money from

advertising, just not as much.

YouTube have said they will no

longer allow him to have him appear

in a show and his originals, which

include a sequel to one of his

films, will not be happening any

more. Yes, Logan Paul has been

reprimanded by YouTube but YouTube

has gotten criticism because it has

taken effectively between nine and

11 days since this happened for them

to respond.

Thank you. You may remember we spoke

to Dan before Christmas. He is a

phenomenally successful star on

YouTube. He owns a lot of money from

it. He said we have a responsibility

to our young audiences.

Now

to our young audiences.

Now the weather. Good morning. We

have seen quite a lot of fog around

this morning. As you can see from

one of our Weather Watchers, it has

been across parts of the West,

Central England and eastern areas as

well. But not everywhere. Look at

this lovely Sunrise in East Sussex.

The fog is already starting to lift.

We have some around Glasgow,

Northern Ireland, pockets of

north-west England, Wales and the

south-west of England. As the rises

it will lift into low cloud and

eventually it will break and we will

see some sunshine. In the east, more

cloud, we have got some patchy rain

and drizzle. This afternoon across

south-west England, we are looking

at sunny spells. A similar story

across Wales. You may find some fog

as you will across Northern Ireland.

If that happens, that will peg the

temperatures back to close to

freezing. In north-west Scotland, a

sunny day ahead. In the east, a bit

more cloud. The fog will lift from

the Central lowlands and south-west.

It should also lived in north-west

England. Dundee East of thing than

through the Midlands, there will be

more cloud. -- down the East of

England. Low cloud and drizzle

lifting into low cloud. This evening

and overnight but you will find is

we will hang on to the cloud. More

will form. Patchy fog forming

tonight. Not quite as widespread as

the night just gone. Where there are

breaks in the cloud, it will be cold

enough for a frost. Those are the

temperatures in towns and cities.

Lower in rural areas. A cold and

frosty start for some tomorrow. The

fog lifting into low cloud. Tomorrow

will be a cloudy day again with a

spot of drizzle. We will see some

brighter breaks, more notably in the

north of Scotland, parts of Wales,

Cornwall, Dorset and Hampshire. For

a Saturday, we have a weather front

coming in from the worst that will

introduce some rain and

strengthening winds. The further

east you travel, the try and the

brighter the weather is likely to

be. As we head into Sunday, there

will be dry and bright weather

around. The weather front producing

cloud in parts of western England

and Wales. A new, more active system

from the north-west later in the day

will introduce wetter and windy

weather.

Hello, it's Thursday, it's ten

o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

Our top story this morning -

One of the strongest warnings yet

about the NHS in England.

This time hospital bosses say

services are at breaking point

and that the Government

must spend more.

85% of patients was seen in four

hours, well below the target.

The

NHS is seven years into a massively

austere decade, the worst in its

history, and we cannot go on like

this.

The details from our

correspondent shortly. And we want

to hear from you about your

experiences if you have been in

hospital, or a family member has.

Also today, Theresa May wants to

eliminate plastic from supermarkets,

including, among other things,

plastic free aisles in supermarkets.

In 25 years' time

I will be 75, we

can't wait to 25 years to tackle

this tide of plastic waste.

And we'll hear the story

of the twin sisters from Syria

who were burnt when a shell

hit their home six years ago.

The conflict in their country has

now being going on for eight years.

Good morning.

Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news.

Thank you, Victoria, good morning.

Hospitals are in need of long-term

funding according to health bosses,

a warning made by NHS Providers. In

the last few minutes, figures have

revealed weights in accident and

emergency in England during December

were the worst since the target was

introduced in 2004. The Department

of Health and Social Care says the

NHS was given top priority in the

last Budget but acknowledged there

was pressure. The Prime Minister has

set out plans to tackle, or is

setting out plans to tackle plastic

pollution by wiping out all

avoidable waste by 2042. The

proposals include asking every

supermarket to have an aisle of

goods with no plastic wrappings, as

well as extending the charge for

carrier bags to all retailers in

England. Environmentalists have

called the plan is worthless unless

they are written into law.

A woman whose father has been

missing for years has been

charged with murder after a body

was discovered in the garden

of her home in Stockport.

Barbara Coombes' father has been

missing for more than a decade.

The 63-year-old has also been

charged with preventing

a lawful burial and fraud.

During their investigation police

officers have told neighbours

that Mr Coombes' would have been

in his 80s

when he disappeared in 2005.

Rescue teams in southern

California are searching

for survivors of the mudslides

that swept away homes

in the town of Montecito.

17 people are known to have died

in Santa Barbara County,

and more than 20 others

are still unaccounted for.

Many places remain inaccessible,

and more than 100 homes

have been destroyed.

That's a summary of the latest

BBC News, more at 10:30.

We will talk about those figures

that Annita was reporting from A&E

units in hospitals in England from

December, more in a moment, your

experiences are very welcome. Sport

now with Jessica.

The draw for the Australian Open,

which starts next week,

has been made in the last hour.

British number one Johanna Konta,

who reached the semifinals

of the tournament two years ago,

will play the American Madison

Brengle in the opening round.

Brengle is ranked number 92

in the world but has won three

of their four previous meetings

against the world number nine.

British number two

Heather Watson

will face Kazakhstan's

Yulia Putintseva.

In the men's draw, Kyle Edmund

is the only British representative

following Andy Murray's pulling out

as he's recovering from hip surgery.

He's been handed a tough opening

match, though, in Melbourne.

He'll have to get past 11th seed

and US Open finalist Kevin Anderson.

Other highlights in the men's draw

include top seed Rafael Nadal

up against Dominican world

number 81 Victor Estrella Burgos.

Swiss five-time champion

Roger Federer will open his title

defence against Slovenia's former

British player Aljaz Bedene.

Six-time champion

Novak Djokovic will open

against American Donald Young.

It was honours even

at Stamford Bridge as Chelsea

took on Arsenal in the first leg

of EFL Cup semifinal.

The video assistant referee

was consulted on two occassions.

Here's one of them.

Arsenal's Danny Welbeck challenged

Cesc Fabregas in the penalty area

in the closing minutes.

But the referee was happy

with his originial decision

not to award Chelsea a penalty.

Some fans have expressed

frustration at how long

the VAR decision process takes,

but Blues boss Antonio Conte said

the system is "very positive".

James Vince and Mark Stoneman have

kept their places in England's Test

squad for the tour of New Zealand,

despite their batting struggles

in the recent 4-0 Ashes

defeat by Australia.

Lancashire batsman Liam Livingstone

receives his first Test call-up,

with the 24-year-old having

impressed for England's B

team over the winter.

Fast bowler Mark Woods is also back

in the squad after injury,

but Gary Ballance has been dropped.

After almost two years out

of the ring,

former world light-welterweight

champion Amir Khan

says he's ready

to make a comeback.

His opponent will be named

next week,

for the fight

at Liverpool's Echo Arena in April.

Khan's last fight was in May 2016,

where he was knocked out

by Mexico's Saul Alvarez.

He's signed a three-fight deal

with Eddie Hearn's Matchroom stable,

which seems to increase

the likelihood of

a British super-fight between Khan

and his long-term rival Kell Brook,

possibly later in the year.

Something to look forward to in the

coming months. That is all the sport

for now. Thank you. Back to those

figures just out in the last few

minutes that show that waiting times

in A&E departments in December in

England were the worst since the

target was introduced in 2004. Our

health correspondent Catherine burns

can tell us more.

When you go to

A&E, the target is 95% of people

should be seen with in four hours,

that definitely didn't happen last

month, only 85.1% of people were

found in that time, and that adds up

to about 300,000 patients waiting

for longer than they should have

done.

Four hours is the target.

And

we have weekly statistics from last

week, when more than 20 hospital

trusts were on the highest level of

alert, so we have some figures to

show how they did. Two interesting

things, one was norovirus, there was

a spike in the number of beds being

closed due to norovirus, and the

other thing was bed occupancy

generally. Ideally, the NHS ones 85%

bed occupancy rates, last week it

95%, up from 91.7%.

Any stories from

you about your experiences of being

in hospital, Maria said, my

12-year-old daughter has a long-term

illness and often needs to attend

A&E as an emergency case. On

Christmas Day she was admitted, and

there were so many patients on

trolleys just waiting. There was

even a queue to get into

resuscitation. Staff were run off

their feet. Fortunately, we were

taken to the children's ward. The

staff there went out of their way to

try to make the day special. Let's

talk to Norman, who is at

Westminster. These figures, the

stories are putting even more

pressure on the Government, aren't

they?

Huge pressure, Vic, I am in a

rather more rural setting than

Westminster, because the PM is doing

a speech on the environment today,

but she will be asked about these

figures, and the timing could hardly

be worse, frankly, because yesterday

in the Commons she was saying that

the NHS was better prepared than

ever before and that the delayed

operations was all part of the plan.

Now we have got the guy who

basically represents all of the NHS

trusts, all of the NHS hospitals,

saying things cannot go on like

this, we have reached a watershed

moment, we have not got enough

staff, beds or money, and we can't

just push it down the road, we need

answers now, we need more cash in

the November Budget. When you put

all that together, that is beginning

to put real pressure on Mrs May,

because the accusation will be that

maybe she has taken her I off the

ball with Brexit, there is an

element of complacency. Speaking to

those close to Jeremy Hunt, their

take is that the NHS is getting more

cash next year, I think it is

getting about 1.7 billion more next

year, but even Mr Hunt accepts there

has to be a rethink about the NHS,

he has talked about a ten-year plan,

and there is a growing view that

everyone needs to think seriously

about how, in the long term, will go

to fund the NHS, given that we are

an increasingly ageing population

that cannot carry on in this sort of

piecemeal fashion.

Thank you very

much Norman, sorry, you obviously

there May's speech, which we will

bring to you live. Norman mentioned

Chris Hopson from NHS Providers, he

has been explaining how the

situation is affecting patients.

The NHS can no longer deliver

the standards of care

in the constitution,

so we have an important

decision to make -

do we abandon those standards,

which were incredibly hard

fought to gain those

standards in the 2000s,

or do we make decisions

on the long-term funding of the NHS

and social care to ensure

it has enough money to meet

those standards?

We need the Government to make those

decisions this year,

by the time of the Budget

at the latest.

For the first time ever last,

the NHS missed all of the key

standards on A&E, elective surgery,

ambulance waiting times,

cancer waiting times.

We set a new trajectory

to recover the A&E standard,

which we will now miss.

We have reached the point

where the NHS cannot meet

the standards of care

that we would all of us,

ministers included, want to provide.

Dr Tom Dolphin is an anesthetist

at a London hospital.

He's also a Labour member.

Of the latest figures show that

targets were missed in December, NHS

Providers saying this is a watershed

moment, do you agree?

It certainly

looks like it, it looks like it in

the figures and if you go to any A&E

in any hospital, people everywhere,

in cubicles, on chairs, they are

queueing up, they are being treated

in car parks around the country. It

feels like this is the worst it has

ever been.

Is there a mismatch

between what the NHS is expected to

deliver with the money it has got,

with the workforce available, and

what it is getting in in money?

Definitely. We have been told we are

supposed to be saving £20 billion

over the next couple of years from

the budget each year, and at the