14/02/2018 Victoria Derbyshire


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14/02/2018

Victoria hears from an assessor who quit her job because she was disgusted with the benefits assessment system. Plus children are buying prescription drugs on social media.


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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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Happy Valentine's Day. This message

says we are in our 75th year of

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marriage. I love it! And they say it

wouldn't last!

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Do get in touch with us

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throughout the morning -

use the hashtag #VictoriaLIVE

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and If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

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Let's get some sport

now with Hugh Ferris

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and we're going to talk

Winter Olympics, where the curling

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has started for Team GB -

how excited should we be?

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We should be. Many at my age will

remember Rhona Martin and her team

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winning the first gold medal for

curling in Salt Lake City. Since

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then the teams, both men's and

women's, have been regular

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challengers in the Winter Olympics.

The example four years ago it was a

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silver and a bronze in Sochi. Here's

how it works. This is a winter sport

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that grips Great Britain. The aim is

to get more of your stones near the

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middle of the target, getting there

is more like the coldest game of

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chess. Always thinking a few moves

ahead. Each team has four members.

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They deliver stones. Mattress can

last up to three hours. The stones

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weigh 20 kilos. -- the matches can

last up to three hours.

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To the action from Pyeongchang. Eve

Muirhead is the skipper. It is her

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third games. She's hoping for

another medal after a bronze four

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years ago. Russia were beaten 10-3

earlier. They ended it early such

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was the dominance of the British

team. The next game will be against

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the USA. As far as the men are

concerned, they won silver four

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years ago. It's a different team

this time around. Paul Smith is the

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skipper. The team are all farmers.

And they include two of Eve

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Muirhead's brothers. Next up for

them it is much, much tougher,

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Canada, the world and Olympic

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champions, beating Team GB four

years ago in Sochi to the gold

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medal. An update on that throughout

the morning here on the BBC News

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Channel.

And there was a terrible blow for

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Elise Christie yesterday in the

speed skating.

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Terribly difficult time. Four years

ago she was disqualified in each of

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her three events. A very emotional

girl. We saw her cry in Sochi.

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Another emotional interview with

tears down her face after crashing

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out of the 500 metres yesterday. She

received lots of support. This is

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what she put on Twitter after

crashing out yesterday.

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This is interesting from Instagram.

One of her rivals, who touched Elise

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Christie before she went down and

crashed into the side wall, put a

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picture on saying "Genuine

happiness", and Elise Christie

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responded with "Actual heartbreak,

but today is a new day". You can put

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your own context to this. Next up,

if she is able to gather herself in

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time, it's the 1500 metres. Two more

chances for her to make amends.

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And Hugh, who on earth is the Flying

Tomato?

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Shaun White. He is a snowboarding

Tomato?

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Shaun White. He is a snowboarding

legend. He used to have massive long

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locks of red hair. He is 31 now. It

is shorter now. That is what happens

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when you get into your 30s. This was

him early on winning a third Olympic

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gold in the half pipe. He reclaim

the title that he did not win in

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Sochi, surprisingly, four years ago.

The American has won the 100th gold

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medal at the Winter Olympics for his

country. He hasn't ruled out having

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another go in four years' time. But

in the meantime he might try

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skateboarding at the next Summer

Olympics because that is being

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introduced for the first time in

Tokyo. He is a multitalented guy and

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one of the most decorated in Winter

Olympics history.

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Good morning.

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Good morning.

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"How did you catch Down's Syndrome?"

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A genuine question

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asked by a benefits assessor

who was working out how

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much disability benefit

a claimant was entitled to.

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As a result of examples like that,

there's a "pervasive lack of trust"

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amongst people with disabilities

in the way their claims

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for welfare are assessed.

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That's what a group

of MPs has found.

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Since 2013, 290,000 claims

for Personal Independence Payments

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or Employment and Support Allowance

which were initially rejected have

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gone on to be approved at appeal -

that's a total of 6%

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of all those assessed.

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In a moment we'll talk

to a whistleblower

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who used to be a benefits assessor

but quit after five weeks.

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First, have a look at this.

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MPs have been looking at how

PIP and ESA assessments

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and payments are being carried out.

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PIP stands for personal

independence.

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It's for people with disabilities

or long-term health problems.

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It's aimed at people

between 16 and 64.

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PIP is a non-means tested benefit

which means it doesn't matter how

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rich or poor you are,

you're still eligible to claim it.

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It's to help with the living costs

that accompany any condition.

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ESA is slightly different.

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It stands for earning

and support allowance.

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It's a benefit you're paid

if your ability to work is limited

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by a health or a disability.

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To be able to claim for ESA,

you have to go through

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a medical assessment.

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If you qualify for ESA,

be put into two groups,

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either a support group

or a work-related activity group.

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The support group is for people

judged unable to work.

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The work-related activity

group is to help those

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who the government believes

could work if they are given help.

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Last year, MPs put out a call

for evidence to see if the payments

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and the companies who manage them

had been doing a good job.

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Their report has found that

for the majority of people

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the system runs smoothly

but for a small minority,

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when things go wrong,

they go very wrong.

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Many say the outcome

of their assessments bore little

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relation to their circumstances,

and that assessors were ignorant.

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One woman was allegedly denied

benefits because her report said

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she walks her dog,

but she says she can't walk and

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does not have a dog.

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Another person with Down's syndrome

says they were asked

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when they caught it.

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After 4,000 submissions,

MPs have now made

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recommendations for changes.

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They say the claim process

should be made easier.

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For example, deaf people

should be allowed to fill

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in their assessment by e-mail.

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They also say that decisions should

be made more clear and open,

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and that claimants should be able

to see what's written about them

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so they can understand

how decisions are made.

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The Government says the changes need

to be made to ensure every person

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feels they are treated fairly,

with respect and dignity.

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Let's talk to a whistleblower -

"Grace" - not her real name -

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who worked as a benefits assessor

but quit after a few weeks

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because of the pressure.

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She's also a member

of the Labour Party.

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Frank Field is here -

he's the Labour chair of the work

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and pensions select committee -

that's the group of Mps who've

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released today's repoort.

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At her home in Yorkshire

is Cath Scarlett, who was

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so distrusting of the process

she secretly filmed it,

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When she was being assessed.

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Her Twitter bio says

she "fights for disabled

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people's rights in every

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waking mimnute, trade unionst,

disability officer for the NUT

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and Labour", and in Salford

is Martin Corr who's

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a probation officer,

he's registered blind and applied

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for PIP in order to get

technology on his phone.

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Grace.

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You worked for one of the companies

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that assess claimants.

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You trained for two weeks,

you lasted in the job 5 wks.

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Why?

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I was disgusted with the system I

was working in. It was institutional

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abuse to me, so I resigned and

escalated my concerns to my nursing

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Council.

What do you mean by

institutional abuse?

The system

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wasn't adequate. It didn't give

claimants long enough to explain and

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express the type of discomfort, the

type of pain that they were going

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through. The nurses were under a lot

of stress, and I think it led to a

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lot of mistakes. I know copying and

pasting goes on.

What you mean?

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Nurses copying from Word documents

onto assessment reports.

So not

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genuinely filling in an assessment

report having had an interview with

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the claimant?

No.

Why? To save time?

Yes. Nurses are expected to assess

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for five client today. Over that,

they get a £50 bonus.

So if you see

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six or more clients today, you get

an extra 50 quid?

There is a lot of

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sickness, and I think retention is

very difficult in this profession.

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They entice you with high wages, but

management put you under so much

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stress that I think a lot of people

leave, a lot of nurses leave.

Is

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there a particular claim that sticks

in your mind that you saw?

I had a

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lady come to my service, dropped off

by a landlord, incapable of making

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her own way there. In my mind, in my

experience of over 20 years working

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with people with disabilities, and

this lady had learning disabilities,

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in fact she said she went a special

school, she gave me the name of the

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school that she went to. She

couldn't read the letters that she

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brought with her, the evidence. She

had over 50 pieces of evidence on a

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computer, which I was expected to

read within half an hour. And

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clearly she had cognitive

difficulties. When I made my report

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on my observations with my

experience, it was sent back, and

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the auditor made me change and said

there was no evidence that she had

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learning disabilities at all.

So an

auditor who I'd never met this

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person completely overruled you?

Yes.

Even though you have 20 years

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in this field, and you had spent

time with this woman?

It was

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disgraceful.

Frank Field, what you

think of that?

What I was talking to

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grace earlier, what struck me was

not only the humility that she has

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brought to this task, but she said

which was stunning and terrifying,

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she had been 20 years a nurse, and

she still felt that with all us

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experience, she was being asked to

do a job with all the professional

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expertise that she was not really

suited to do, and then you hear that

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when she does make a judgment to the

very best of her ability, the

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auditor comes along and tells her to

change it. And it is this period of

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growing uncertainty and lack of

trust that the committee looked at,

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and we believe the only way of

tackling that in the short run is

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for all these interviews to be

recorded. Every organisation

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concerned with this says we should

actually have these interviews, key

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interviews, recorded. The Government

when it came to give evidence said

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we must consult on this, and we

pointed out to the Government,

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everybody's agreed but you, so if

you are going to do a consultation,

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it is you talking to yourself. Why

don't you make this one bold move

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and say that people who are disabled

don't have to struggle around with a

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recording machinery to be able to

present that things were not as

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reported, but that it would just be

an automatic right for applicants to

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ask for their interviews to be

recorded.

What you think of that

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idea, grace?

Absolutely. And for the

assessor to use that recording as

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well to write the report, sometimes

reports are left open until the

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following day. It is totally against

policy, but you can't get all the

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reports written at times.

Is it

possible you couldn't cope with the

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pressure? Because you know when you

start a new job, it is hard, you

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were trying to get your head round

things, it does feel a bit chaotic.

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Could that not be part of the reason

why you felt stressed?

No, I think

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it was bad management. Some of my

colleagues were coming in at half

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past seven to finish reports and

leaving at eight o'clock, and then

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management were asking them to take

laptops home on their days off to

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complete report is.

Let me read some

messages here. An e-mail, I'm about

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claim benefits for the first time in

about 25 years due to sickness, and

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I'm terrified about it. I know that

I give them any excuse whatsoever to

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turn my claim down, they will, which

mix my illness far worse. Frank

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says,

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PIP assessment awful, they sent a to

physiotherapist assess my mental

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health. This person says, my level

was dropped, and they said I refused

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an exam, but I wasn't offered one to

refuse. Frank Field, you know what

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the Government say, you quote it in

your report, which is, 83% of ESA

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claimants and 73% of PIP claimants

so they're happy with overall

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experience.

The report makes clear

that most people don't object, and

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we hope that figure does reflect how

people feel. But for example in

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Birkenhead on Friday, a constituent

had been turned down. One of the

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questions was, could you go to your

local shop? Being very honest, she

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said yes. What she didn't say, and

nor was the question posed in a

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waiting courage to say, when I have

been to the local shop, I am two

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days in bed trying to recover. The

question was answered honestly but

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it didn't get anything like how

disabled that person was.

Let me

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bring in Katha and Martin. -- Cath

and Martin. Cath, you filmed your

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assessment, but there was one thing

that was odd. Tell the audience what

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that was.

When I got the decision,

they had downgraded my care

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component of it, saying that I could

cook meals and I could get myself

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washed and dressed perfectly OK

because I used a crutch in my right

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hand. It took me a long time to be

able to get a copy of the report, I

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had to get my MP involved to be able

to get a copy, and when I got it, it

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was full of inaccuracies, from

beginning to end.

And how did you

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react when you read it, then?

I was

completely taken aback. Within the

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first two minutes of the assessment,

there were two... They can only be

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called liars. I was using crutches,

and I walked very slowly, but they

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said I walked with a normal posture,

I held the arms of my chair and

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lowered myself down slowly, and on

the video it actually shows me

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walking sideways and very stooped on

the crutches, so I was leaning on

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the very heavily, and I don't even

touch the arms of the chair to sit

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down. I was trying to balance myself

on the crutches, and I actually fell

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into the chair.

So not accurate

description, you say, of what

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actually happened?

Absolutely not.

There were a huge amount of similar

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things within the report.

Let me

bring in Martin. I can't hear you

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down here for some reason, I'm not

sure why. Perfect!

Hello?

You have

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been registered blind since 1979 and

you work as a probation officer. Why

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we are applying for PIP at all cause

yellow prior to PIP, I had been in

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receipt of the Disability Living

Allowance, its predecessor, and I

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was invited to apply for PIP. I use

quite a lot of technology to allow

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me to function, primarily a la

tonics to read text and magnify

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stuff, that sort of thing. And how

was the assessment process for you

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as someone who is blind and never

going to regain their site?

It

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starts off that they send you a 16

page form, in no other format but

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paper. If you are visually impaired,

you accept that as the norm in life.

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I was then assessed by a very nice

lady. I didn't have to get out of my

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chair at all. But from that

assessment she was able to establish

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that I could cook meals and I could

wash, dress and could travel around

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safely. This was in spite of a

letter from my consultant which

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basically said that this man has

little or no vision and would be

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severely impacted to move around

safely, that I needed a white stick

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to safely navigate even unfamiliar

-- on familiar routes. The dossier

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that came back said that whilst they

knew I had a white stick, they did

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not deem it to be an aid.

I'm sorry?

They did not deem it to be an aid.

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This is a parallel universe.

There

was lots of suggestions from my

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colleagues at work about what it

actually was for!

I bet you can't

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mention those on daytime television,

as well!

Yes, none of them can be

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broadcast!

Let me read some more from the

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statement.

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Our aim is that every person feels

they have been treated fairly and

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with dignity. We have commissioned

five independent reviews of the work

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capability assessment, accepting

more than over 100 recommendations,

0:19:450:19:48

and two independent reviews of PIP

assessments. We are exploring

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options around recordings to promote

greater transparency and trust.

It

0:19:560:20:01

is good to hear about. But they

could have announced today they are

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doing, as Grace was saying, the

importance of recording these key

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interviews. But they would also need

to accept there is a long-term

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problem. If you have somebody like

Grace, who has 20 years of being a

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nurse, a highly skilled person,

feels this is such a difficult task

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then you have problems, haven't you?

Also, when they began this

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assessment procedure they appointed

three private companies to do it.

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They believed that would attract

many more private companies wanting

0:20:370:20:41

to undertake the work. They haven't

done that. None of the companies the

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Silva targets. And the Government

has this key question, what do we do

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now when the market is setting us

towel? -- none of the companies to

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-- none of the companies fulfill

their targets.

Unlikely to happen?

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It depends on the new Secretary of

State, but it's sad the fits a

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pattern now. What were the high

hopes, like with farming links out

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to the private sector, they don't

always work.

Most people are happy

0:21:190:21:25

with their experience of being

assessed. This is from the Weezer,

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my assessment was very thorough, I'm

a wheelchair user, it lasted over an

0:21:290:21:34

hour and it would have weeded out

any scammers. -- this is from

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Louisa.

That's great. I hope they

are satisfied because otherwise even

0:21:390:21:44

more drastic, isn't it? But the

Government hasn't done a survey on

0:21:440:21:49

those. We have just had this

enquiry. We had more people write

0:21:490:21:54

in, thousands, we've never had that

before, of people who come as Grace

0:21:540:21:59

as described, feeling they got a

rough deal.

Thank you. -- of people

0:21:590:22:06

who, as Grace has described.

0:22:060:22:08

Thank you all.

0:22:090:22:20

Thank you for your time. I have many

messages from you. I will read some

0:22:210:22:28

more throughout the programme. Keep

sending them in. Also coming up:

0:22:280:22:35

Running your own business from home

can be really tempting, but are some

0:22:350:22:40

of the marketing schemes advertised

too good to be true? We will find

0:22:400:22:44

out how some are leaving some people

in thousands of pounds of debt.

0:22:440:22:48

The prescription drug Xanax is being

sold illegally to children over

0:22:480:22:54

social media. We are keen to hear

from you if you have used the drug

0:22:540:22:59

or you are worried your child is

getting access to it somehow.

0:22:590:23:05

Time for the latest news.

0:23:050:23:06

Here's Carole Walker.

0:23:060:23:07

The BBC News headlines this morning.

0:23:070:23:11

The Foreign Secretary,

Boris Johnson, will say in a speech

0:23:110:23:13

later today that leaving

the European Union is a cause

0:23:130:23:15

for "hope, not fear".

0:23:150:23:16

He'll attempt to offer reassurance

to Remain voters who feel

0:23:160:23:19

angry and alienated ,

but he'll also say that those

0:23:190:23:21

who want to stay in the EU cannot

and will not win the argument.

0:23:210:23:27

The Labour MP Chuka Umunna,

who supports the Open Britain

0:23:270:23:29

campaign against a hard Brexit said

Mr Johnson was "unqualified

0:23:290:23:32

to preach about the perils

of fear and betrayal".

0:23:320:23:42

The jury at the trial

of the former football

0:23:430:23:44

coach Barry Bennell,

who's been found guilty of dozens

0:23:440:23:47

of sexual offences against boys,

will continue deliberations

0:23:470:23:48

on other charges today.

0:23:490:23:51

Yesterday, the jury

at Liverpool Crown Court returned

0:23:510:23:53

guilty verdicts on 36 counts

and asked for more time

0:23:530:23:56

to consider seven more.

0:23:560:23:57

Bennell, who appeared in court

via videolink due to illness,

0:23:570:23:59

declined to give evidence

in his defence.

0:23:590:24:07

Film star Minnie Driver has

quit as an Oxfam ambassador

0:24:070:24:09

following claims that staff working

for the charity in disaster

0:24:090:24:12

zones paid vulnerable

local people for sex.

0:24:120:24:13

The actress resigned after 20 years

with the aid agency,

0:24:130:24:16

saying in a statement

that she was "horrified"

0:24:160:24:17

by the allegations.

0:24:180:24:21

Oxfam said it was "grateful"

for Ms Driver's commitment,

0:24:210:24:23

and that it was more determined

than ever to learn

0:24:230:24:25

from its mistakes.

0:24:250:24:33

A committee of MPs has said

there is a "pervasive lack of trust"

0:24:330:24:36

among disabled people when it comes

to how their welfare

0:24:360:24:38

claims are assessed.

0:24:380:24:39

The Commons' Work and Pensions

committee said reports

0:24:390:24:41

by private contractors

were "riddled with errors."

0:24:410:24:43

It recommends ministers

take the service back

0:24:430:24:44

"in house" when contracts end

with private firms.

0:24:440:24:46

The government says the majority

of claimants are happy

0:24:460:24:48

with their overall experience.

0:24:480:24:57

Police in South Africa have

arrested three people in raids

0:24:570:25:00

targeting the wealthy Gupta family,

who are close to the

0:25:000:25:02

president, Jacob Zuma.

0:25:020:25:03

Mr Zuma is under increasing pressure

to resign over corruption claims.

0:25:030:25:09

Both Mr Zuma and the Guptas

deny the allegations.

0:25:090:25:11

Mr Zuma is expected to respond later

today to a formal request

0:25:110:25:14

from the African National Congress

to step down.

0:25:140:25:20

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

0:25:200:25:28

Some more messages from you about

the assessment of claiming certain

0:25:280:25:32

welfare benefits. Derek says there

are too many errors to excuse this

0:25:320:25:36

system. No doubt the assessments are

regulated. Disabled people are

0:25:360:25:40

becoming numbers and are not treated

as individuals and I find this

0:25:400:25:43

disturbing.

Robert says my wife has recently

0:25:430:25:47

gone through her PIP assessment. She

suffers from agoraphobia, severe

0:25:470:25:54

social anxiety and borderline

personality disorder. The lady was

0:25:540:25:57

nice enough but an occupational

therapist can hardly know about

0:25:570:26:02

mental health issues my wife suffers

with. The problem is not only the

0:26:020:26:07

level of misinformation, deliberate

or Paul Butler knowledge of a

0:26:070:26:10

claimant's illness, but the very

real and large amount of suffering

0:26:100:26:13

put on the already extremely

vulnerable patient. -- deliberate or

0:26:130:26:24

poor background knowledge of a

claimant. I don't see the point of

0:26:240:26:27

putting a vulnerable person

throughout this level of stress,

0:26:270:26:30

without a doubt increasing suicidal

behaviour, and to find out that the

0:26:300:26:38

exact information is put on the form

sent in.

0:26:380:26:43

Here's some sport now.

0:26:430:26:47

Success for the women's British

curling team. Led by the skip Eve

0:26:470:26:51

Muirhead, they had encumbrance of

win over the Olympic athletes from

0:26:510:26:54

Russia earlier this morning. The men

also won their opening round-robin

0:26:540:27:00

game against Switzerland. A third

Olympic gold for Shaun White, known

0:27:000:27:04

as the flying tomato. He reclaim the

title he surprisingly did not win in

0:27:040:27:11

Sochi in the snowboard half pipe. It

was the 100th gold medal in history

0:27:110:27:16

for the USA at the Winter Olympics.

The Champions League returned. Spurs

0:27:160:27:23

came from 2-0 down against Juventus

interim to draw 2-2. -- in Turin.

0:27:230:27:32

Also down to ten men and 2-1 behind,

Kilmarnock beat Dundee in the

0:27:320:27:37

Scottish premiership last night. Ian

Wilson scoring at dramatic and

0:27:370:27:40

impressive late winner. It was their

seventh straight home win for

0:27:400:27:46

Kilmarnock.

0:27:460:27:46

Setting up a business from home can

seem very tempting -

0:27:480:27:51

but a BBC investigation has found

that some of those involved

0:27:510:27:53

in what's known as multi level

marketing schemes are being left

0:27:530:27:56

in thousands of pounds of debt.

0:27:560:27:57

Multi-level marketing companies,

or MLMs, have been compared

0:27:570:27:59

by their critics to pyramid schemes

- though the key difference

0:27:590:28:02

is they're absolutely legal-

essentially a company employs

0:28:020:28:04

a network of independent salespeople

who sell products directly

0:28:040:28:06

to their friends and relatives.

0:28:060:28:13

These salespeople earn income based

on their personal sales,

0:28:130:28:16

as well as the sales of those

they've recruited to

0:28:160:28:18

work for the company.

0:28:180:28:20

But many people who dreamt of making

thousands of pounds a month

0:28:200:28:22

are instead ending up in debt.

0:28:220:28:32

Women across the UK are speaking out

against a £1 billion industry called

0:28:340:28:37

multilevel marketing.

0:28:380:28:39

I came across on Facebook this

friend who had quit her job,

0:28:390:28:41

and I knew she was earning about 6-7

grand a month and I just

0:28:410:28:45

thought if she can do it,

then I can do it as well.

0:28:450:28:49

90% of it is full of greedy,

vultureish behaviour.

0:28:490:28:51

I've lost over £1000.

0:28:510:28:53

I think it's very much like a cult.

0:28:530:28:56

So, are some multilevel marketing

companies selling a dream

0:28:560:28:58

and letting some women down?

0:28:580:29:01

This may be your opportunity to make

a difference in your life.

0:29:010:29:04

Not only does Valentus offered

the best way to lost coffee

0:29:040:29:06

on the market but we also give

you an opportunity

0:29:060:29:09

to earn income on it.

0:29:090:29:15

-- Not only does Valentus offered

the best weight loss coffee.

0:29:150:29:19

You get the opportunity to build

a strong, stable income at home.

0:29:190:29:22

This is multilevel marketing,

better known as the abbreviation MLM

0:29:220:29:24

or network marketing.

0:29:250:29:26

It has passionate supporters

and outspoken critics.

0:29:260:29:28

Up to 500,000 people

in the UK are signed up.

0:29:280:29:31

Firstly, let's explain

what multilevel marketing is,

0:29:310:29:32

using our fictional MLM company

Fantabulousness, and a made

0:29:320:29:35

up group of people.

0:29:350:29:36

Fantabulousness make their own

perfume called Live Your Best life

0:29:360:29:38

and Positive Dreams.

0:29:380:29:46

Fictional Amy is recruited

by her old school friend

0:29:460:29:48

Karen to join her team.

0:29:480:29:50

So, Amy joins up by paying £100

for a starter kit and Karen makes

0:29:500:29:53

money for recruiting Amy.

0:29:530:29:58

Amy makes money by selling perfume

to her own customers,

0:29:580:30:01

like her sister Jane,

and her best friend, Lily.

0:30:010:30:03

And Karen gets a cut

of those sales, too.

0:30:030:30:05

Amy also builds a team.

0:30:050:30:11

She makes money for recruiting her

sister Jane and every time

0:30:110:30:13

Jane sells some perfume,

Amy gets a cut of that sale.

0:30:130:30:18

And then Karen also gets money

from the recruitment

0:30:180:30:20

of Jane and her sales.

0:30:200:30:22

The more people below

you, the more selling,

0:30:220:30:24

the more recruiting,

the more money is

0:30:240:30:26

going up the chain.

0:30:260:30:27

Plus, people also get bonuses

and make money through coaching.

0:30:270:30:29

And there are some

real-life success stories.

0:30:290:30:36

I'm currently the number

one position and female

0:30:360:30:39

-- I'm currently the number

one position female

0:30:430:30:46

in the UK and I have a team

of over 1800 people.

0:30:460:30:49

Now, what that means for me is I've

been able to enjoy an incredible

0:30:490:30:52

income over the last 4.5 years,

of 3.5 of those years,

0:30:520:30:55

my company has had an intake of over

£100,000 of business income.

0:30:550:30:58

Network marketing to me

is absolutely about

0:30:580:31:00

more than just money.

0:31:000:31:01

So, when I'd just started,

I simply started so that I could be

0:31:010:31:04

at home with my little boy.

0:31:040:31:05

Natasha was successful in a company

called Forever Living but she quit

0:31:050:31:08

and she is now an outspoken critic

of the whole industry.

0:31:080:31:11

I had the best time.

0:31:110:31:12

The best time.

0:31:120:31:13

And I can't ever say any different.

0:31:130:31:18

I've met some incredible friends,

some amazing people.

0:31:180:31:20

And we grew to a team of over 300.

0:31:210:31:23

However, 3.5 years later, I've now

decided to leave that industry.

0:31:230:31:27

I started to notice

negativity going on.

0:31:270:31:30

There was little stories

of this person being...

0:31:300:31:32

Experiencing bullying or this person

experiencing cheating.

0:31:320:31:36

90% of it is full of greedy,

vultureish behaviour.

0:31:360:31:41

Unlike Natasha, Ellie is too nervous

to speak out in public and so,

0:31:410:31:44

she's played by an actor.

0:31:450:31:47

They sell it to you that

you will only work about 5-10 hours

0:31:470:31:50

a week, and be able to earn

a full-time income.

0:31:500:31:53

So, I quit my job and

committed to Forever.

0:31:530:31:55

Think big, believe big, act big,

and the results will be big.

0:31:550:31:59

The idea of being able

to control your success

0:31:590:32:01

through positive thinking or mindset

training is encouraged in some MLMs.

0:32:010:32:06

No just means not right now.

0:32:060:32:07

I think when you go into MLMs,

it's very much like a cult.

0:32:070:32:10

Everyone is buzzing each other up,

and getting quite excited.

0:32:100:32:17

I have got loads of business

coming my way today.

0:32:170:32:20

Ellie says she got into

£10,000 worth of credit

0:32:200:32:22

card debt in two years.

0:32:220:32:24

The most I ever made

in a month was £400.

0:32:240:32:34

They are offering women a dream,

they are offering them the chance,

0:32:350:32:38

they say, to earn a lot of money

for very little work while staying

0:32:380:32:41

at home with their children.

0:32:410:32:43

It's a lie.

0:32:430:32:47

So, it seems to us again the way

these companies are set up,

0:32:470:32:50

the fact that for most sellers

the only way really to make money

0:32:500:32:53

is to recruit other sellers,

that just seems to contain

0:32:530:32:55

within itself too much

exploitative potential.

0:32:550:32:57

Mumsnet say there's been at least

20,000 posts and threads worried

0:32:570:32:59

about multilevel marketing.

0:32:590:33:01

We have also decided really

as a result of looking into this

0:33:010:33:04

issue recently that we're not

going to accept any sort of kosher

0:33:040:33:07

recruitment or other product

advertising from MLM on mumsnet

0:33:070:33:09

for the future, going forward.

0:33:090:33:17

The people that you see paraded

before you at rallies,

0:33:170:33:21

on social media, in the Lifestyle

videos, they are a tiny,

0:33:210:33:24

tiny percentage.

0:33:240:33:25

MLM companies do say

on their website or in the terms

0:33:250:33:28

and conditions something like income

isn't guaranteed or not

0:33:280:33:30

everyone is successful.

0:33:300:33:32

The direct sales association,

which is the trade body that

0:33:320:33:34

represents some MLM companies told

us that direct selling

0:33:340:33:36

should never be viewed

as a way to get rich quick,

0:33:360:33:39

and, as with any form of work, it

requires hard work and commitment.

0:33:390:33:46

Forever Living told us all business

owners are contractually required

0:33:460:33:48

to comply fully with the DSA

code of ethics.

0:33:480:33:54

That includes not making misleading

claims about possible income.

0:33:540:33:56

Valentus say they are very

transparent with all information

0:33:560:33:58

to anyone who's interested

in signing up.

0:33:580:34:13

You've just got to get

the right work ethic,

0:34:130:34:15

the right goals set,

and get the right skills and you are

0:34:150:34:18

on a fast track to success.

0:34:180:34:20

You know, they've got someone up

on stage who's telling you that

0:34:200:34:23

for years and years they struggled

with their business, and,

0:34:230:34:25

then, all of a sudden,

they focused really hard,

0:34:250:34:27

and suddenly they're earning 5,000,

10,000, 15,000 grand a month.

0:34:270:34:30

And you're just sitting

there thinking, yeah,

0:34:300:34:31

that's going to be me!

0:34:310:34:33

About 75% of people in multilevel

marketing companies

0:34:330:34:35

in the UK are women.

0:34:350:34:42

I didn't want to pay out

extortionate childcare fees,

0:34:420:34:44

because it's gone up.

0:34:440:34:45

It's hard because there's not much

work around here, as it is.

0:34:450:34:48

What are these companies appear

to provide is genuine

0:34:480:34:50

flexibility, working from home,

choose your own hours.

0:34:500:34:54

That can feel like a really

attractive proposition

0:34:540:34:56

to an awful lot of women.

0:34:560:35:00

And, so, it feels really unfair

if what you are actually offering

0:35:000:35:03

is really about recruiting other

people and stockpiling goods,

0:35:030:35:05

and coming home and worrying

about what's happening.

0:35:050:35:11

I came out of it £2000 in debt.

0:35:110:35:13

It's been an absolute struggle.

0:35:130:35:15

I've had fallouts with my

partner over it because I

0:35:150:35:17

used his credit cards.

0:35:170:35:18

To them, £1000 is nothing.

0:35:180:35:20

But to me, it's everything.

0:35:200:35:24

These women told us last August

they'd lost significant amounts

0:35:240:35:29

of money in a slimming coffee,

multilevel marketing

0:35:290:35:31

company called Valentus.

0:35:310:35:34

They stopped selling when they heard

that Trading Standards had started

0:35:340:35:36

investigating another seller.

0:35:360:35:40

We contacted Valentus and they admit

that, at that point,

0:35:400:35:42

the formulas and packaging did not

comply with UK approved regulations.

0:35:420:35:47

But say that, in fact,

the products were for personal use

0:35:470:35:50

only and not for resale.

0:35:510:35:52

They say the products

were being sold by women like these

0:35:520:35:55

without Valentus' consent.

0:35:550:35:57

I was on antidepressants.

0:35:570:35:59

And I had to increase my dosage

because I got distressed so much.

0:35:590:36:04

I was losing so much money,

I actually went behind my partner's

0:36:040:36:08

back so me and him hadn't been

getting on for a while because...

0:36:080:36:11

Well, obviously, he's

going to blame me.

0:36:110:36:13

It was me that lost the money.

0:36:130:36:20

Valentus also said they had in 90

days returns policy and that they've

0:36:200:36:23

changed the formula ingredients

and wording on packaging on two

0:36:230:36:27

products and they are now compliant

and selling in the UK.

0:36:270:36:30

Now we've heard from women who say

they've made lots of money,

0:36:300:36:32

and some who say they've lost money.

0:36:320:36:34

But what is the average

amount people end up with?

0:36:340:36:39

Well, the trade body,

the Direct Sales Association,

0:36:390:36:41

believes their own data.

0:36:410:36:44

It works out at £412 per distributor

in the UK each month.

0:36:440:36:51

That's retail sales

which doesn't mean their profit.

0:36:510:36:53

We can't verify this.

0:36:530:36:56

There are ways to give

all the information that people need

0:36:560:36:58

to make a really informed decision

and then, if you read

0:36:580:37:01

all that information,

understand it, take it on board

0:37:010:37:03

and you still want to work for that

company, then I think that's a much

0:37:030:37:07

more legitimate thing.

0:37:070:37:11

But it feels at the moment as though

people are essentially signing up

0:37:110:37:14

on a bit of a false premise.

0:37:140:37:18

Ellie told us she felt pressured

to fulfil a minimum spend each

0:37:180:37:20

month, which could be

products or recruitment.

0:37:200:37:25

The more they spend,

the deeper they get into...

0:37:250:37:26

Into the belief that success

is just around the corner.

0:37:260:37:29

So, I went to my upline and told

them I was struggling and putting

0:37:290:37:32

everything on the credit card.

0:37:320:37:34

And they just told me

it would pay off.

0:37:340:37:36

And, at the time, I thought

they were helping me out

0:37:360:37:38

by encouraging me to continue.

0:37:380:37:40

And that's not good

for a relationship when you're

0:37:400:37:42

constantly having to scrape by.

0:37:420:37:45

I mean, if my parents knew

how much debt I was in,

0:37:450:37:47

I think they'd be mortified.

0:37:470:37:49

Forever Living told us that business

owners must only buy

0:37:490:37:51

in quantities required to fulfil

immediate sales needs.

0:37:510:37:58

And are prohibited from placing

orders until 75% of previous

0:37:580:38:00

stock has been sold.

0:38:000:38:02

Breaches may lead to termination

of their agreement.

0:38:020:38:07

One criticism of the MLM industry

is whether there's too much

0:38:070:38:09

of a focus on recruitment

rather than sales.

0:38:090:38:18

That is because pyramid schemes,

which are illegal businesses,

0:38:180:38:20

reward people for an ruling others

into a business that offers

0:38:200:38:22

a nonexistent or worthless product.

0:38:220:38:25

There is no suggestion that any MLM

companies featured in this film

0:38:250:38:28

or otherwise are pyramid schemes.

0:38:290:38:33

However, some people continue

to believe that some MLM companies

0:38:330:38:35

are structured similarly

to pyramid schemes.

0:38:350:38:40

These are pyramid schemes

with a very, very superficial veneer

0:38:400:38:44

of product to bring it just

inside the law.

0:38:440:38:46

I think the law can be tightened up.

0:38:460:38:49

Joanna says she's

heard it all before.

0:38:490:38:51

And when you try and ask people

what that even means,

0:38:510:38:54

they just can't explain it.

0:38:540:38:56

They always say the person

at the top makes all the money.

0:38:560:38:59

And it just makes no sense

because if you look at a normal job,

0:38:590:39:02

and a normal working environment,

the person at the top gets

0:39:020:39:06

all the money while the people

at the bottom are doing

0:39:060:39:09

all of the hard work.

0:39:090:39:10

To me, that doesn't make sense.

0:39:100:39:11

Because in network marketing

it's the flip side.

0:39:110:39:15

The people doing all the work

and working hard can overtake

0:39:150:39:18

the people that brought them

in and earn more money than them.

0:39:180:39:23

And it's not a pyramid scheme.

0:39:230:39:25

The direct selling association told

us they strongly oppose

0:39:250:39:27

all forms of pyramid selling,

which is illegal in the UK.

0:39:270:39:33

In legitimate direct

selling opportunities,

0:39:330:39:35

earnings come from commission

on sales of products.

0:39:350:39:37

Valentus say there is no pressure

to recruit and it's people's choice

0:39:370:39:40

whether they choose to recruit

or to sell.

0:39:400:39:44

Natasha thinks a focus

on recruitment can lead

0:39:440:39:46

to people getting hurt.

0:39:460:39:49

They recruit a lot of people.

0:39:490:39:52

They fish through those people

for ruthless people that

0:39:520:39:54

are going to be like them that

are going to mass recruit.

0:39:540:39:58

And they throw the rest to one side.

0:39:580:40:00

There needs to be accountability.

0:40:000:40:03

Who's going to fix that lady's

confidence that you've battered?

0:40:030:40:07

It can be really emotionally

damaging to somebody when they've

0:40:070:40:09

had this amazing team around them

and, suddenly,

0:40:090:40:11

everyone's cut them off.

0:40:110:40:16

You will immediately be

shut out of all of that,

0:40:160:40:19

all of those friends,

all of those people that

0:40:190:40:22

you loved and trusted,

and who you really thought valued

0:40:220:40:24

you for who you are.

0:40:240:40:26

Valentus told us they provide

support to every member

0:40:260:40:28

through online training and upline

support from company leaders.

0:40:280:40:32

Forever Living say they provide

mediation for any disagreements.

0:40:320:40:39

We do not condone bullying of any

description and we have clearly

0:40:390:40:41

defined whistle-blowing

and escalation procedures to deal

0:40:410:40:43

with any such allegations.

0:40:430:40:44

Any business owner found to have

breached our policies will have

0:40:470:40:50

their agreement terminated.

0:40:500:40:51

Yes, there's probably going to be

a backlash and negative opinion

0:40:510:40:56

about what I've said but,

do you know what, I think

0:40:560:40:59

the majority of people

will hear what I've said and,

0:40:590:41:01

whether they speak out

and agree with me not,

0:41:010:41:03

they will agree with what I've said.

0:41:030:41:08

More on this after half ten.

0:41:080:41:09

If you've been involved

in an MLM, do get in touch.

0:41:090:41:16

We are looking for the couple that

have been together the longest in

0:41:170:41:19

Britain. I have a really nice to eat

here from Alison. She says, they're

0:41:190:41:28

with me. It had better be worth

waiting for! Alison says trot-macro

0:41:280:41:36

it is just loading. Happy

Valentine's Day. We are in 57 years

0:41:360:41:55

relationship, a mixed race

relationship, marriage 52 years.

0:41:550:41:59

Maybe the Queen is watching. Please

get in touch, ma'am. Right.

0:41:590:42:06

For many South Koreans,

it was the first time they'd

0:42:060:42:08

ever come face-to-face

with their neighbours

0:42:080:42:10

from the north.

0:42:100:42:11

If you've watched any

of the Winter Olympics, you'll know

0:42:110:42:13

that the North Korean cheerleading

team have been prominent

0:42:130:42:15

every time the unified

Korean team has performed.

0:42:150:42:17

And they've made quite the impact.

0:42:170:42:19

Some are suggesting that the Games

might lead to an improvement

0:42:190:42:21

in relations between North Korea

and South Korea.

0:42:210:42:23

The two bitterly divided countries

are competing under a neutral flag

0:42:230:42:26

at the Winter Games,

which is in South Korea.

0:42:260:42:28

The North Korean propoganda machine

is huge but it's normally used

0:42:280:42:33

within the country to big up

the personal reputation of this guy,

0:42:330:42:36

the country's leader, Kim Jong Un.

0:42:360:42:39

But over the last few days,

the machine's most colourful part

0:42:430:42:46

has hit the big time.

0:42:460:42:52

The North Koreans have sent 22

athletes to the Winter

0:42:520:42:55

Games in South Korea.

0:42:550:43:00

But they've sent a whopping

230-member cheer team.

0:43:000:43:02

It's their first global appearance.

0:43:020:43:06

They are making quite

a show, and one that's

0:43:060:43:08

pretty different from that

of their country's

0:43:080:43:10

militaristic leader.

0:43:100:43:13

The cheerleaders are all

in their 20s and 30s and have been

0:43:130:43:16

trained from a young age.

0:43:160:43:20

The women are sometimes referred

to as Kim's Army Of Beauties.

0:43:200:43:23

And, in fact, his wife was once part

of the so-called cheer squad.

0:43:230:43:27

They are chosen because

of their looks, height,

0:43:270:43:29

and family background.

0:43:290:43:32

Loyalty to the cause is paramount,

according to one defector,

0:43:320:43:34

who said their job was to conquer

with a smile.

0:43:340:43:39

North and South Korea

are bitterly divided.

0:43:390:43:44

But the two nations are performing

together at the games.

0:43:440:43:47

The cheerleaders aren't having

quite the desired effect

0:43:480:43:50

on the medal table yet, though.

0:43:500:43:54

The Korean women's hockey

team lost 8-0 to Sweden.

0:43:540:43:58

But the real question

is whether these displays of unity

0:43:580:44:00

could have a lasting impact outside

the sporting arena.

0:44:000:44:06

We can speak now to Dr Youngmi Kim,

lecturer in Asian Studies

0:44:060:44:09

at Edinburgh University

and Patrick Winn, investigative

0:44:090:44:15

journalist in South East Asia

and has interviewed a North Korean

0:44:150:44:17

defector who's a former cheerleader.

0:44:170:44:19

Patrick, how do the cheerleaders

fit into North Korea's

0:44:190:44:21

propaganda machine?

0:44:220:44:31

From a very young age, the machine

will identify girls as young as

0:44:340:44:37

eight or nine and indoctrinate them

into the propaganda machine.

0:44:370:44:40

Throughout their teenage years they

will spend hours training to play

0:44:400:44:43

instruments, to exult the regime

through song, and some are steered

0:44:430:44:48

into a cheerleading wing, and that

is what you're seeing in South

0:44:480:44:51

Korea.

And Dr Youngmi Kim, in terms

of the key diplomatic moves being

0:44:510:44:57

made by the North Koreans at the

games, they are all being made by

0:44:570:45:03

women. Why?

Can you hear me?

I can

now. Sorry, we keep forgetting to

0:45:030:45:12

turn up your microphone, but we have

done it now, thank you.

I think this

0:45:120:45:17

way, they mitigate the tension. It

has increased so far in the past few

0:45:170:45:24

months between the US and North

Korea. They have been discussing who

0:45:240:45:28

has the bigger button on their desk.

But by sending this cheerleading

0:45:280:45:34

team, it shows that there is a human

being living in North Korea, have a

0:45:340:45:44

similar lifestyle. In the west we

know mostly about nuclear weapons

0:45:440:45:48

programmes or famine, civil

oppressions, but this is a kind of

0:45:480:45:57

surprising, lots of people thing,

they look similar to us, and they

0:45:570:46:03

look very kind, and they are

smiling, so this actually read

0:46:030:46:10

humanised the image of North Korea.

Do you think it works, then? The

0:46:100:46:14

West seeing the cheerleaders?

I

think, yes.

Patrick, you have

0:46:140:46:19

written a piece recently about the

way the North Korean government also

0:46:190:46:23

sends women abroad to work in

restaurants. How does that fit in

0:46:230:46:26

with the cheerleading thing?

0:46:260:46:37

So the same propaganda machine, they

mostly stay in North Korea, but they

0:46:370:46:40

don't have much commercial value

there. Some of them are pulled away

0:46:400:46:46

and sent off to restaurant, many in

China but many here in Southeast

0:46:460:46:51

Asia, the second-largest market. All

of these restaurants have twirling,

0:46:510:46:56

singing waitresses who perform in

perfect synchronicity, a lot like

0:46:560:46:58

the cheerleaders you are seeing at

the Olympics. And it's a way for

0:46:580:47:04

anyone, even Brits, Americans,

so-called tormentors of the North

0:47:040:47:07

Korean state, to go and have

proximity to these women. And the

0:47:070:47:11

money all goes back to Pyongyang.

And Dr Youngmi comedy think these

0:47:110:47:21

good relations between North and

South will continue afterwards?

0:47:210:47:33

Yes, I think that Kim Jo-yong has

also been considered to help develop

0:47:330:47:40

further peace on the peninsular.

And

do you think that by talking about

0:47:400:47:47

them and avoiding talking about the

other issues like the nuclear issue,

0:47:470:47:51

we Erdei what Kim Jong Un would

want?

I think the North will not

0:47:510:47:57

give up the nuclear programme,

because they learned a lesson from

0:47:570:48:02

Libya or Iraq, why would they give

up? So they are playing the game,

0:48:020:48:16

they will continue to have this

programme at the same time as they

0:48:160:48:19

want to open the window to have

communication. That is why the South

0:48:190:48:23

Korean government has a huge

criticism from the opposition,

0:48:230:48:26

because South Korea can be used by

the North Korean Limerick as

0:48:260:48:32

tactics, strategies, right? -- by

the North Koreans as tactics of

0:48:320:48:41

strategies. But at this stage there

is no other way than talking about

0:48:410:48:46

who has more Army capacity.

It

always comes down to talking it

0:48:460:48:51

would seem in the end. Thank you

very much for coming on our

0:48:510:48:55

programme, Dr Youngmi Kim, lecturer

in Asian studies at Edinburgh

0:48:550:48:59

University, and Patrick Winn,

journalist in Southeast Asia. News

0:48:590:49:05

at ten o'clock, but before that the

weather.

0:49:050:49:07

Good morning. We had some Valentines

love for the skies, but perhaps not

0:49:100:49:15

as much towards the south-west. This

was the view a short while ago in

0:49:150:49:19

Cornwall, and it will be a familiar

view for many by the time we finish

0:49:190:49:23

today. Strong to gale force winds,

outbreaks of rain across many areas,

0:49:230:49:27

turning to snow across the higher

ground of Wales, covering of the

0:49:270:49:32

Peak District, perhaps ten

centimetres or more across the

0:49:320:49:36

Grampians and Highlands. Then

temperatures rise later in the day.

0:49:360:49:38

We will see some sunshine return

towards Western Scotland and

0:49:380:49:42

Northern Ireland, and temperatures

may be into double figures. In

0:49:420:49:47

eastern areas it will stay cold.

Heavy bursts of rain working across

0:49:470:49:51

any and Wales through this evening

and overnight, that will clear, but

0:49:510:49:55

tonight with starry skies for some

and only a few showers in the north

0:49:550:49:57

and west, temperatures will drop

away, but after severe gales for

0:49:570:50:01

some

0:50:010:50:02

today, the wind will ease down a

little but still keep those

0:50:020:50:06

temperatures in the frost. A

blustery but brighter day, a few

0:50:060:50:13

showers around, sleet and snow in

the West, mainly sleet and snow for

0:50:130:50:17

Scotland and Northern Ireland, but

temperatures not dropping away too

0:50:170:50:19

much.

0:50:190:50:21

Good morning. It is Valentine's Day,

ten o'clock, I'm Victoria

0:50:250:50:29

Derbyshire.

0:50:290:50:33

Our top story today -

Boris Johnson will try

0:50:330:50:35

to reassure Remain voters

that the UK's split from the EU

0:50:350:50:37

is a cause for "hope not fear".

0:50:370:50:39

But as a die-hard Brexiteer,

is he the right messenger?

0:50:390:50:41

I think he'll be all right.

0:50:410:50:43

I think so.

0:50:430:50:44

I think he'll do it.

0:50:440:50:45

He's not the man to

do that job, is he?

0:50:450:50:47

He doesn't care about Remainers.

0:50:480:50:49

It's like setting your house on fire

and then trying to put

0:50:490:50:52

the fire out yourself.

0:50:520:51:02

We will get reaction from two MPs,

one Labour, one Conservative on

0:51:050:51:10

either side of the divide, let's see

how they get on on Valentine's Day.

0:51:100:51:15

A BBC Investigation has found

that the prescription drug Xanax

0:51:150:51:17

is being sold illegally to children

on social media sites in the UK.

0:51:170:51:20

Certain dealers are online. On

social media, sometimes, it is

0:51:200:51:25

possible now to go on Instagram and

find a drug dealer.

0:51:250:51:29

Really keen to hear from you this

morning if you've uses

0:51:290:51:35

Xanax or you're worried

that your child is using it.

0:51:350:51:39

And happy Valentines Day - we're

looking for the couple who've been

0:51:390:51:42

together the longest

amongst our viewers.

0:51:420:51:44

57 years together is our current

winner, but let me know

0:51:440:51:46

if you can beat that.

0:51:460:51:54

Good morning.

0:51:540:51:55

Here's Carole Walker

in the BBC Newsroom

0:51:550:51:57

with a summary of today's news.

0:51:570:52:00

The Foreign Secretary,

Boris Johnson, will say in a speech

0:52:000:52:02

later today that leaving

the European Union is a cause

0:52:020:52:04

for "hope, not fear".

0:52:040:52:06

He'll attempt to offer

reassurance to Remain

0:52:060:52:08

voters who feel alienated.

0:52:080:52:10

But the government's efforts

at reconciliation have angered

0:52:100:52:12

the Labour MP Chuka Umunna,

who supports the Open Britain

0:52:120:52:15

campaign against a hard Brexit.

0:52:150:52:16

He said Mr Johnson was "unqualified

to preach about the perils

0:52:160:52:18

of fear and betrayal".

0:52:180:52:28

The jury at the trial

of the former football

0:52:280:52:30

coach Barry Bennell,

who's been found guilty of dozens

0:52:300:52:32

of sexual offences against boys,

will continue deliberations

0:52:320:52:34

on other charges today.

0:52:340:52:37

Yesterday, the jury

at Liverpool Crown Court returned

0:52:370:52:39

guilty verdicts on 36 counts

and asked for more time

0:52:390:52:41

to consider seven more.

0:52:410:52:42

Bennell, who appeared in court

via videolink due to illness,

0:52:420:52:45

declined to give evidence

in his defence.

0:52:450:52:55

Film star Minnie Driver has quit

as an Oxfam ambassador

0:52:560:52:59

following claims that staff working

for the charity in disaster

0:52:590:53:01

zones paid vulnerable

local people for sex.

0:53:010:53:03

The actress resigned after 20 years

with the aid agency,

0:53:030:53:05

saying in a statement

that she was "horrified"

0:53:050:53:07

by the allegations.

0:53:070:53:08

Oxfam said it was "grateful"

for Ms Driver's commitment,

0:53:080:53:10

and that it was determined to learn

from its mistakes.

0:53:100:53:13

The International Development

Secretary, Penny Mordaunt says

0:53:130:53:14

that the culture that allowed this

to happens needs

0:53:140:53:16

to change quickly.

0:53:170:53:26

I am writing to every single charity

that receives aid to set out

0:53:290:53:34

assurances about their safeguarding

procedures. If our standards are not

0:53:340:53:37

met then the British taxpayer will

not continue to fund them. Unless

0:53:370:53:43

you safeguard everyone in your

organisation that comes into contact

0:53:430:53:47

with you, including beneficiaries,

staff and volunteers, we will not

0:53:470:53:50

fund you.

0:53:500:53:52

A committee of MPs has said

there is a "pervasive lack

0:53:520:53:55

of trust" among disabled people

when it comes to how their welfare

0:53:550:53:58

claims are assessed.

0:53:580:53:59

The Commons' Work and Pensions

committee said reports

0:53:590:54:01

by private contractors

were "riddled with errors."

0:54:010:54:02

It recommends ministers

take the service back

0:54:020:54:04

"in house" when contracts end

with private firms.

0:54:040:54:06

The government says the majority

of claimants are happy

0:54:060:54:08

with their overall experience.

0:54:080:54:14

Police in South Africa

have raided properties belonging

0:54:140:54:16

to allies of the president,

Jacob Zuma - as pressure mounts

0:54:160:54:18

on him to step down.

0:54:180:54:19

The wealthy Gupta

family have been accused

0:54:190:54:21

of using their friendship

with the President to promote

0:54:210:54:23

their business interests.

0:54:230:54:24

Both the President and the Guptas

deny the allegations.

0:54:240:54:26

Mr Zuma is expected to respond later

today to a formal request

0:54:260:54:29

from the African National Congress

to step down.

0:54:290:54:39

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30.

0:54:430:54:47

Thank you for your many messages

about assessments before you are

0:54:470:54:54

awarded personal independent

payments, which has taken over from

0:54:540:54:57

the disability living allowance.

Billy says they are to reduce the

0:54:570:55:01

benefits pay-outs, they have nothing

to do with disability, they are not

0:55:010:55:04

a wish to help. The Government want

to just save money to pay for other

0:55:040:55:08

stupid projects like the DUP

pay-out.

0:55:080:55:15

Another text, I have just had my

employment and support allowance

0:55:150:55:20

reinstated after ten months, thanks

to the help of my MP. They claimed

0:55:200:55:23

to have no record of my many letters

which included letters from the pain

0:55:230:55:28

clinic. If it wasn't for my family

and friends I would have struggled

0:55:280:55:31

to eat. Finally I can pay the huge

debt I have incurred over this time.

0:55:310:55:37

But why is this happening?

Jean has e-mailed, I have a

0:55:370:55:43

disability, but before that I work

for the NHS as an occupational

0:55:430:55:46

therapist. I can see what the

problem lies. The assessments have

0:55:460:55:49

problems because the professionals

doing them are not trained or

0:55:490:55:54

qualified to do them. They do

unacceptable things like look at

0:55:540:55:58

tripping people up or extrapolate a

reason not to give an award. They

0:55:580:56:06

cannot -- that's not true, Jean, a

whistle-blower had over 20 years in

0:56:060:56:12

nursing and was also an assessor.

Her specialism was mental health.

0:56:120:56:17

Had she just been asked to assess

people with mental health abilities

0:56:170:56:21

she would have been fine. But when

somebody walked in with arthritis it

0:56:210:56:25

was difficult for her. But there are

people there with specialisms in

0:56:250:56:29

arthritis and so forth. But you

don't necessarily see the claimant

0:56:290:56:33

relevant to your experience. That

seems to be one of the issues. Thank

0:56:330:56:36

you for your messages.

0:56:360:56:39

Do get in touch with us

0:56:390:56:43

throughout the morning -

use the hashtag #VictoriaLIVE

0:56:430:56:45

and If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

0:56:450:56:48

Here's some sport now.

0:56:480:56:49

Hopes are high that the women's

curling teams. The men's and women's

0:56:490:56:55

teams have won medals. Eve Muirhead

and her team won a medal in Saatchi

0:56:550:57:00

four years ago. They entered the

game early such was their dominance,

0:57:000:57:05

beating Democrat opponents 10-3. --

in Sochi four years ago. The men's

0:57:050:57:16

match against Switzerland had to go

to another end. They will be going

0:57:160:57:22

up against the defending champions,

Canada.

0:57:220:57:25

One of the superstars of winter

sports claimed another gold medal.

0:57:250:57:28

Snowboarder Shaun White. He was

second going into the final run, but

0:57:280:57:33

he nailed his display to come out on

top. He is known as the flying

0:57:330:57:38

tomato because of his famous red

hair. His gold medal was the 100th

0:57:380:57:43

won by the USA in Winter Olympic

history.

The beginning, in the

0:57:430:57:48

sport, it wasn't cool to want to

win. But you see it now, the guys

0:57:480:57:52

are hungry, motivated, they want it.

Even the qualifying was a final. I'm

0:57:520:57:57

proud to come out on top today. I'm

thankful for those guys because they

0:57:570:58:01

pushed me to get to this point, to

be able to do these kinds of runs.

0:58:010:58:06

One more gold medal. After a

thrilling final lap Erick Rowan

0:58:060:58:11

and the weather has been causing

more problems in Pyeongchang. The

0:58:190:58:24

biathlon and women's slalom had to

be cancelled. The Olympic Park was

0:58:240:58:28

closed. Spectators were advised to

stay away because of more strong

0:58:280:58:31

winds.

Premier League clubs are improving

0:58:310:58:35

in Europe. Both Spurs and Manchester

City had excellent results in their

0:58:350:58:40

last 16 ties in the Champions

League. Spurs were 2-0 down early in

0:58:400:58:45

their match against Juventus. But

Harry Kane, and a free kick from

0:58:450:58:50

Christian Eriksen, and then a draw

to take them to the second leg at

0:58:500:58:53

Wembley next month. Those are the

first goal is Juventus have conceded

0:58:530:58:56

since November.

Manchester City got the biggest away

0:58:560:59:08

win for any English team in the

knockout stages of the Champions

0:59:080:59:11

League. Looking good for those two.

More later.

0:59:110:59:16

Thanks very much.

0:59:160:59:17

Former football coach

Barry Bennell is facing a fourth

0:59:170:59:20

jail sentence after a jury

convicted him of 36 counts

0:59:200:59:22

of historical child sex abuse.

0:59:220:59:25

The trial, though, is not over.

0:59:250:59:26

Jury members are back today

to consider verdicts on seven

0:59:260:59:28

outstanding charges.

0:59:280:59:29

Our reporter Jim Reed is here.

0:59:290:59:39

This is a partial verdict. The jury

will return today to consider their

0:59:410:59:47

deliberations. We are still

restricted on what we can and cannot

0:59:470:59:50

report. We can tell you that Barry

Bennell was found guilty on 36

0:59:500:59:56

counts of child sexual abuse

yesterday, that included indecent

0:59:560:59:59

assault and a -- and rape charges.

The judge had previously instructed

0:59:591:00:08

the jury to return a not guilty

verdicts on another three charges,

1:00:081:00:12

which leaves seven outstanding. They

will go back and think about and

1:00:121:00:17

consider those today.

Remind us of

some of the things the jury has

1:00:171:00:20

heard in this trial.

The jury have

been deliberating since last

1:00:201:00:25

Thursday. In the trial the

prosecution case was that Barry

1:00:251:00:29

Bennell was a child molester, as

they put it, on an industrial scale.

1:00:291:00:34

He groomed not just his victims but

the jury heard their families, as

1:00:341:00:38

well. They were told about his links

with two football clubs, Manchester

1:00:381:00:43

City, where one of his victims

described Barry Bennell as being

1:00:431:00:46

treated like a god. And another

team, Crewe Alexandra football club.

1:00:461:00:51

Barry Bennell did not attend the

trial in person but via video link

1:00:511:00:54

from jail because of ill health. As

these verdicts came in yesterday, it

1:00:541:00:59

was a busy court room in Liverpool.

Lots of the victims and alleged

1:00:591:01:03

victim sitting in the courtroom were

in tears as these camps and were

1:01:031:01:06

read out. Barry Bennell himself

could be seen on a video link

1:01:061:01:11

shaking his head as these verdicts

came through, muttering, but it

1:01:111:01:15

could not really be heard by people

in the court room.

What happens

1:01:151:01:19

today questioning of the jury will

continue their deliberations. In

1:01:191:01:24

about five minutes time. They will

be looking at seven more charges,

1:01:241:01:28

four involving one single alleged

victim, three involving three other

1:01:281:01:32

complainants. Barry Bennell denies

those charges. His defence barrister

1:01:321:01:37

made the case that he was a sitting

target, she said, because of

1:01:371:01:42

previous child six abuse charges and

convictions, which he had against

1:01:421:01:47

him in the 90s. And the latest one

in 2015. This trial isn't over. It

1:01:471:01:52

continues today. Thanks very much.

The Foreign Secretary, Boris

1:01:521:02:00

Johnson, will say that supporters

Brexit must reach out to people who

1:02:001:02:05

are angry and despairing about the

UK leaving the European Union.

1:02:051:02:09

In a speech in London,

which is the first in a series

1:02:091:02:12

of Brexit speeches being made

by Cabinet ministers,

1:02:121:02:14

he'll set out what he sees

as the benefits of leaving the EU.

1:02:141:02:17

He'll also insist that those

who want to stop Brexit cannot

1:02:171:02:19

and will not win the argument.

1:02:191:02:22

So how will his attempt at unity go

down with the general public?

1:02:221:02:25

Our reporter Anna Collinson

has been to find out.

1:02:251:02:33

Could you sum up Boris Johnson in

one word?

Orangutan.

Ridiculous.

He

1:02:331:02:42

is a neighbour of mine. I get on

with him. I talked to him in the

1:02:421:02:47

mornings.

He seems a little bit

crazy. Out of control.

This morning

1:02:471:02:54

he will be doing a speech about

Brexit and trying to unite Remainers

1:02:541:02:58

and levers. That is his plan. What

do you think?

I would really see him

1:02:581:03:06

in that position, or things going as

planned for him, because he doesn't

1:03:061:03:13

have that sort of reputation.

I

think he will be all right. I think

1:03:131:03:18

he will do it.

He's not the man to

do that job, is he? I don't think he

1:03:181:03:23

cares about the Remainers.

He is

trying to reunite the two asides, is

1:03:231:03:27

that not a positive thing?

Totally,

it's like sitting in the house on

1:03:271:03:32

fire and then putting it out

yourself, doing everything.

1:03:321:03:38

Boris Johnson's attempt

at a consensual speech looks set

1:03:381:03:40

to be very different to his previous

public utterings on Brexit.

1:03:401:03:44

Today we are going to have a

positive unpatriotic case. Back to

1:04:021:04:06

project they are. If we don't leave

and take back control, I believe

1:04:061:04:13

that this Thursday could be our

country's Independence Day.

1:04:131:04:16

CHEERING

1:04:161:04:22

The UK is going to be at the back of

the queue.

The crucial thing that

1:04:421:04:51

America stands for is representative

democracy, and the problem with the

1:04:511:04:58

EU is that nobody knows in charge,

nobody knows who is making these

1:04:581:05:03

decisions, and as I say, I think it

is very weird that the United States

1:05:031:05:08

should be telling us to do something

they wouldn't dream of doing in a

1:05:081:05:11

million years themselves.

1:05:111:05:13

There have been all salts of

attempts in Europe to recreate the

1:05:241:05:28

dream of the Roman Empire, and very

often that has been done by force.

1:05:281:05:35

The EU is different, it is trying to

do it in a more bureaucratic way.

1:05:351:05:40

Let's talk to two people

who couldn't have

1:05:511:05:52

more opposing views -

Labour peer Lord Adonis,

1:05:521:05:54

Andrew Adonis - who has

turned his full attention

1:05:541:05:57

to stopping Brexit,

and Conservative MP John Redwood

1:05:571:05:59

who voted to leave the EU,

and thinks life outside

1:05:591:06:02

the EU will be bright.

1:06:021:06:08

Welcome to both of you. John

Redwood, it is Valentine's Day.

1:06:081:06:12

Boris Johnson, who was on the same

side as you, would like you to reach

1:06:121:06:16

out to remain a like Lauda Done

this, so be nice to him.

1:06:161:06:27

-- like Lord Adonis. We are not in

this to have a poorer country. We

1:06:271:06:37

want a freer country with Democratic

self-government, and the message to

1:06:371:06:43

Andrew Adonis is that our viewers

should be expressed in Parliament

1:06:431:06:47

and then resolved in decisions which

are made resolved following

1:06:471:06:51

decisions of all our viewpoints, but

they shouldn't be made in Brussels

1:06:511:06:54

by people who don't elect.

It turns

out that John and I profoundly

1:06:541:07:01

agree. Before we started into this

Brexit business John was in favour

1:07:011:07:06

of what he called it a double

referendum, one on the principle on

1:07:061:07:12

the other on the terms of Brexit.

What is abundantly clear now is that

1:07:121:07:16

this...

Is this true?

Of course not,

but I don't want to waste time

1:07:161:07:23

debating this. We all agreed on the

Conservative manifesto would we

1:07:231:07:26

would have a single referendum about

leaving all remaining.

But were you

1:07:261:07:32

in favour of a double referendum?

We

originally proposed allowing people

1:07:321:07:37

to decide whether they wanted a

referendum or not, but we made that

1:07:371:07:40

decision by general election.

You

said there should be a double

1:07:401:07:45

referendum, two referenda, that was

your position.

We had a referendum

1:07:451:07:48

about the idea of asking the

question, then a referendum to

1:07:481:07:51

settle the question. But we did the

former by a general election, by

1:07:511:07:56

offering people a referendum, the

Conservative Party was elected on

1:07:561:08:02

that basis, parliament voted

strongly in favour.

The big problem,

1:08:021:08:05

Victoria, is that we can't get

straight answers to stray questions,

1:08:051:08:07

including from Boris. You heard the

guy on your clip who said that how

1:08:071:08:14

Boris can be the person who set fire

to this house can be the person who

1:08:141:08:18

put it out can be an implausible

proposition. I asked John a direct

1:08:181:08:22

question, was he in favour of two

referenda?

He was.

But not in the

1:08:221:08:26

way that you are now proposing. That

is fine by me. We will have a second

1:08:261:08:30

referendum on the terms of Brexit...

This is a waste of an interview.

We

1:08:301:08:36

have plenty of time. This is what

you wrote. November 20, 2012.

1:08:361:08:42

Yesterday, David Davis made a public

case for the double referenda which

1:08:421:08:45

some of us are urging the government

to launch. The first question would

1:08:451:08:50

be, do you want the UK Government to

negotiate a new relationship with

1:08:501:08:55

the EU based on trade and political

corporation? Venney went on, the

1:08:551:09:03

second referendum would follow once

the negotiations were complete. That

1:09:031:09:07

would ask, do you want to accept the

new negotiate relationship with the

1:09:071:09:10

EU?

Are you still in favour of that,

John, have you changed your view?

Of

1:09:101:09:17

course we have changed our view, we

did it the other way around saying

1:09:171:09:20

to the public through a general

election, would you like to have a

1:09:201:09:23

government party that will give you

a single referendum, do you want to

1:09:231:09:27

stay or leave, and they voted for

that. I strongly support that, and I

1:09:271:09:31

don't see why we are going over this

ancient history. What I want to talk

1:09:311:09:35

about is how we can spend all that

money that we can get back when we

1:09:351:09:40

cease to be in, and how we can

change our tax laws in a way to help

1:09:401:09:44

people where we are not light at the

moment because of the EU.

What some

1:09:441:09:47

people don't understand is why

people like yourself who want to

1:09:471:09:50

stop Brexit do not want for example

Britain to be independent when it

1:09:501:09:54

comes to its own trade policy, a

trade policy shaped by Britain for

1:09:541:09:59

Britain.

Because we have a fantastic

trade deal at the moment through the

1:09:591:10:04

European Union. We have free trade

with 27 members of the European

1:10:041:10:07

Union and preferential trade

agreements with another 75 other

1:10:071:10:11

countries as a result of our

membership of the European Union.

1:10:111:10:16

When John was a Government in the

1980s, we were negotiating trade

1:10:161:10:20

deals galore, and it was Margaret

Thatcher who started the single

1:10:201:10:22

market.

So to answer that point, why

do you want to give up dozens and

1:10:221:10:28

dozens and dozens of very good trade

deals which we have is a member of

1:10:281:10:32

the EU in order to start again from

scratch?

We won't be giving them up,

1:10:321:10:37

this is a myth.

We will.

The trade

deals are made with us as members of

1:10:371:10:43

the EU and other members of the EU

as members of the EU, and I don't

1:10:431:10:47

know of a single country that has

one of those trade deals at once.

1:10:471:10:50

But trade deal for the UK because

when you break up your union, both

1:10:501:10:54

sides have to make sure the other

parties want you to carry on with

1:10:541:10:58

the agreement, it is not just us who

have that issue, the rest of the EU

1:10:581:11:04

has it.

No one has left the EU

before, so we don't know what is

1:11:041:11:08

going to happen.

Please don't be so

aggressive and silly. Can you name a

1:11:081:11:14

single other country...

Nobody has

left the EU, so I can't name another

1:11:141:11:18

country.

Can you name another

country that has a trade deal with

1:11:181:11:23

the EU that doesn't want to roll it

over?

Nobody else has ever left the

1:11:231:11:28

EU, so we don't know. Can you

guarantee that the 75 other nations

1:11:281:11:31

besides the EU with which we have

trade agreement at the moment with

1:11:311:11:35

the EU, that all of those will roll

over next March? Can you role --

1:11:351:11:41

guarantee that?

I can't guarantee

anything, I don't believe in making

1:11:411:11:46

silly claims. But I don't know of

any country and we are in diplomatic

1:11:461:11:51

contact with countries, that wants

to stop a free-trade deal which they

1:11:511:11:54

have already got with us.

Does the

fact the Boris Johnson is making

1:11:541:11:58

this beach at all mean that there is

a genuine worry amongst Brexiteers

1:11:581:12:02

that people like Andrew Adonis are

gradually and slowly winning the

1:12:021:12:05

argument?

I don't think they are

winning the argument at all. We had

1:12:051:12:08

the main argument and it was very

clear. The Government agreed, Leave

1:12:081:12:14

agreed and Remain agreed, that the

referendum was to give the decision

1:12:141:12:18

of Remain or Leave to the British

public, and they knew that and that

1:12:181:12:21

is why they turned out in very large

numbers, and it was a single

1:12:211:12:25

referendum and it was assumed that

then parliament would get on and

1:12:251:12:29

enacted. Furthermore we have had a

general election since then, and the

1:12:291:12:36

party campaigned to leave the EU as

part of the campaign.

Boris Johnson

1:12:361:12:39

will say that trying to reverse the

referenda would be a disastrous

1:12:391:12:43

state leading to a permanent feeling

of betrayal among the 17 million

1:12:431:12:46

people who voted to leave. He is

right on that, isn't he?

I favour a

1:12:461:12:54

referendum on the terms... .

But he

is right, isn't he?

Those people

1:12:541:13:00

will have a choice on whether they

like the terms they don't. If they

1:13:001:13:05

don't, if they like the terms and

they believe in all the promises of

1:13:051:13:08

two years ago which are now

disintegrated, they still believe

1:13:081:13:10

that is the way forward, that is

fine. But it is the people who

1:13:101:13:14

should decide, it shouldn't be John

and people in smoke-filled rooms in

1:13:141:13:18

the Conservative Party plotting the

succession to Theresa May decided.

1:13:181:13:22

That is what should happen. I am a

democrat and I support the position

1:13:221:13:25

that John himself supported until

2016 which was a double referendum.

1:13:251:13:29

The idea that we should take an

assurance from Boris Johnson who

1:13:291:13:37

caused all of this mess that

everything is going to be fine, and

1:13:371:13:39

if those of us who want us to

remaining gauged in Europe to have

1:13:391:13:42

free trade and prosperity, that

somehow we should give up, that is

1:13:421:13:44

not going to happen.

What is so

wrong with a second referendum on

1:13:441:13:47

the deal?

We had a referendum gave

the decision...

I heard you say

1:13:471:13:51

that. Once the deal is done, what

would be so wrong with that?

But we

1:13:511:13:58

had this very issue in the general

election.

You keep ignoring the

1:13:581:14:01

question. Once the deal is done...

Liberal Democrats campaigned for a

1:14:011:14:07

second general election and they did

very badly in the election, that is

1:14:071:14:12

on the wing of the people.

But once

the deal is done. Please let me

1:14:121:14:16

finish the sentence. Once the deal

is done, what would be so bad about

1:14:161:14:19

putting it to the British people to

see if they liked it or not?

It

1:14:191:14:22

would put the country in an

impossible position. We have made a

1:14:221:14:26

decision and told our partners what

we are doing, and whiners would they

1:14:261:14:29

want is back on the same terms or

anything like that? We have to get

1:14:291:14:40

on with it.

Democracy is very

inconvenient for John Redwood, but

1:14:401:14:42

the right Democratic causes for the

British people to decide this, not

1:14:421:14:45

John Redwood.

I would be deciding

it, Parliament has decided at an

1:14:451:14:47

affair referendum vote of all of the

people.

Perhaps an illustration of

1:14:471:14:50

how difficult it is going to be for

Boris Johnson to try to unite remain

1:14:501:14:53

as an Brexiteers, but nevertheless,

thank you very much, gentlemen.

1:14:531:15:04

Still to come.

1:15:041:15:04

The flexibility

1:15:041:15:05

of running your own business

from home is a dream for many,

1:15:051:15:08

but are some of the marketing

schemes advertised too good

1:15:081:15:10

to be true?

1:15:101:15:11

We'll hear how some people have been

left thousands of pounds in debt.

1:15:111:15:14

Good morning.

1:15:191:15:20

The first set of guidelines

to tackle bullying and harrassment

1:15:201:15:24

in the film and TV industry

are being unveiled today.

1:15:241:15:27

The guidance is a response

to the sexual harassment scandal

1:15:271:15:29

that has rocked the entertainment

industry following a string

1:15:291:15:31

of allegations made

against producer Harvey Weinstein.

1:15:311:15:33

Actress Emma Watson has

supported the new plans.

1:15:331:15:41

These principles are important

because up until recently there were

1:15:411:15:45

no guidelines. There was no protocol

for someone that had been sexually

1:15:451:15:49

harassed in the entertainment

industry. I know this to be a fact

1:15:491:15:53

because I have asked for principals,

I have asked to see guidelines, and

1:15:531:15:57

no one could give them to me. No one

could send me, here is the protocol

1:15:571:16:01

that we follow when someone has had

this experience. Which I found

1:16:011:16:05

shocking.

1:16:051:16:08

Let's speak no to Amanda

Nevill, Chief executive

1:16:081:16:11

of the British Film Institute,

Rebecca O'Brien who is

1:16:111:16:13

a BAFTA-winning film producer

and runs a production company

1:16:131:16:17

Sixteen Films, and to Helen Vine,

an actor who's worked on Tomb Raider

1:16:171:16:20

and was in The Crown,

and who took a theatre company

1:16:201:16:24

she worked for to an employment

tribunal and last month won £10,000

1:16:241:16:28

for the sexual

harassment she endured.

1:16:281:16:29

She's waived her right

1:16:291:16:31

to anonymity to talk to you today.

1:16:311:16:34

And potentially we are going to talk

about some graphic issues.

1:16:341:16:38

If you have children around,

you may not want them to listen.

1:16:381:16:41

Good morning to all of you. Helen,

you were as I understand it

1:16:421:16:47

proposition for sex. You were asked

to join a threesome. Intimate parts

1:16:471:16:52

of your body were discussed,

comments were made about the size of

1:16:521:16:54

your breasts, and so it goes on.

Why?

I don't know. It was a company

1:16:541:17:01

that was a theatre education

company, and I was touring with

1:17:011:17:04

them. But from day one, the

behaviour that the actors and

1:17:041:17:09

directors that I was working with

were using towards me was an

1:17:091:17:16

acceptable, and it just escalated,

and I was pushed to breaking point.

1:17:161:17:21

I was forced to resign due to the

sexual harassment and bullying that

1:17:211:17:26

I underwent with the company.

And I

wonder if these new guidelines and

1:17:261:17:30

principles had been in place, four

example two designated workers on

1:17:301:17:39

and off set to work with and

interview witnesses, dedicated

1:17:391:17:44

hotline, would it not have happened?

I'm not sure, because there were no

1:17:441:17:49

procedures in place with this

company whatsoever, so they were

1:17:491:17:54

allowing this behaviour, that the

company director and allowed it, but

1:17:541:17:59

during the court process and the

year that I was complaining and I

1:17:591:18:04

was in touch with Equity and my

solicitor, I was not aware that this

1:18:041:18:11

was going to happen. Now that these

procedures are in place, it's

1:18:111:18:17

completely supporting what I have

just literally been through, and if

1:18:171:18:21

they were in place a few months ago

even when it was still in the

1:18:211:18:25

rapping up stages of my complaint,

it would have supported me.

Could

1:18:251:18:35

you have done this earlier, Amanda?

I think Ugen only do something when

1:18:351:18:39

you knowing needs doing, and of

course every body now is saying that

1:18:391:18:42

it has been known about for a long

time, but had it been known about,

1:18:421:18:45

the industry definitely would have

galvanised quicker.

And how will

1:18:451:18:50

what you are introducing protect

people like hell in?

First of all,

1:18:501:18:54

to be clear, sadly for Helen it was

in theatre, and our guidelines of

1:18:541:19:00

the television, but there is no

reason why theatre shouldn't adopt

1:19:001:19:02

it. The British law is on the side

of this. The issue is within the

1:19:021:19:07

workplace if you are a victim of

bullying or harassment, how do you

1:19:071:19:10

articulate it? Who do you go to and

how do you find a language to

1:19:101:19:14

explain it? And this does three

things. First of all it is the

1:19:141:19:19

industry together, many

organisations doing this, saying we

1:19:191:19:22

don't want this, we are all going to

commit to saying out loud that we

1:19:221:19:25

are not going to allow this to

happen and we want to make sure.

1:19:251:19:28

Secondly it is putting in place

those missing legs, as you said, so

1:19:281:19:33

our aim at Baftas and the BFI is to

offer training with the aim that in

1:19:331:19:36

the workplace and on every set there

are at least two people that you

1:19:361:19:39

could go to, so if you had been on a

film you could have been able to go

1:19:391:19:43

to these people who would have said,

try this or that, also, this is

1:19:431:19:46

serious, ring the helpline, because

they can put you in touch with

1:19:461:19:49

proper for the National is.

You have

been in the industry for a while,

1:19:491:19:58

how much does this need to be done?

Badly. This happened on one of my

1:19:581:20:05

own films.

Somebody came to you?

No,

I did a speech at the European film

1:20:051:20:12

award at my campaign. She wrote to

me afterwards. She said three years

1:20:121:20:16

ago when I was working on a film of

yours, not a Ken Loach film, by the

1:20:161:20:21

way, but on a film of yours I was

sexually harassed or is nasty, lurid

1:20:211:20:28

suggestions were made to me by

members of staff. She told me that

1:20:281:20:38

she was a new person in the

industry. This was her first job on

1:20:381:20:43

a film. Can you imagine?

How did you

react?

I was horrified. I was

1:20:431:20:50

ashamed this happened on what should

have been my watch. I like to think

1:20:501:20:53

people can come to me and be open

and stuff. But you realise how the

1:20:531:20:59

abuse of power can happen when you

are not aware of what goes on. I

1:20:591:21:08

wrote back, I said I was sorry and

shocked. The only thing I can do, I

1:21:081:21:14

said can I tell your story to

demonstrate that it even happens to

1:21:141:21:17

people who think they know how to

run a film set.

Could you not have

1:21:171:21:24

gone to the people who abused her,

verbally and otherwise, and call

1:21:241:21:28

them out?

I would have. Had I known.

Absolutely.

Could you not do that

1:21:281:21:35

now?

The problem with the freelance

industry, and this is why it is

1:21:351:21:39

important to have a joint industry

approach and guidelines and

1:21:391:21:42

principles covering the whole

industry, is that it is a very

1:21:421:21:44

freelance business. Each film that

you do, you are setting up a new

1:21:441:21:51

situation, a new workplace. You have

that thing when a film begins, when

1:21:511:21:56

production begins, you have maybe

hundreds of people working together

1:21:561:22:00

in a new place, they are jockeying

for position with each other. The

1:22:001:22:08

small companies don't have an HR

department you can go to. And you

1:22:081:22:15

have new people who... And it has

been predominantly a male industry

1:22:151:22:18

for some time. And a lot... There is

a lot of banter and stuff that goes

1:22:181:22:24

on between people who are familiar

with working with each other. And if

1:22:241:22:27

you are a young woman... It can

happen between genders, it can

1:22:271:22:32

happen between blokes come as well,

but if you are a young woman and it

1:22:321:22:37

is new to you do not know where you

stand -- and it is new to you, you

1:22:371:22:44

do not know where you stand.

It is

thought that lots of people will

1:22:441:22:48

wear black, like at the Golden

globes, what is the point of that?

1:22:481:22:52

It is a show of commitment, isn't

it? Like the principles. The

1:22:521:22:56

principles will work and say we are

not going to have that. To come back

1:22:561:23:02

to the principle is a bit, you

mentioned a bit about education and

1:23:021:23:05

how you change an industry. That is

a manifestation of our desire to

1:23:051:23:14

change. But the people signing up

not just those actively engaged, its

1:23:141:23:19

people coming through, for example

creative skills sets are hoping to

1:23:191:23:21

put this module in towards future

training. It will be embedded with

1:23:211:23:26

all of the up and coming. And there

was a fantastic lottery funded

1:23:261:23:32

organisation that has film clubs in

10,000 schools, run by amazing

1:23:321:23:36

teachers, they are going to embed

this as one of the talking points. I

1:23:361:23:41

would hope that by starting at the

bottom and making that commitment,

1:23:411:23:44

you know, at one end you have people

wearing black, at the other hand you

1:23:441:23:49

have teachers over using this as an

opportunity or an excuse to discuss

1:23:491:23:55

it.

Thank you all for your time, I

appreciate it.

1:23:551:24:00

Still to come.

1:24:001:24:02

The prescription drug Xanax

is being sold illegally

1:24:021:24:04

to children over social media -

we'll tell about the drug

1:24:041:24:06

and it's impact -

if you've take it -

1:24:061:24:08

do get in touch.

1:24:081:24:09

It's Valentines Day and we're

on the hunt for the couple that's

1:24:091:24:12

been together the longest -

get in touch if this might be you.

1:24:121:24:20

I have some comments... I will read

them in the next half hour after the

1:24:201:24:28

news from Carol Walker.

1:24:281:24:32

The Foreign Secretary,

Boris Johnson, will say in a speech

1:24:321:24:35

this morning that leaving

the European Union is a cause

1:24:351:24:37

for "hope, not fear".

1:24:371:24:38

He'll attempt to offer

reassurance to Remain

1:24:381:24:40

voters who feel alienated.

1:24:401:24:41

But the government's efforts

at reconciliation have angered

1:24:411:24:43

the Labour MP Chuka Umunna,

who supports the Open Britain

1:24:431:24:45

campaign against a hard Brexit.

1:24:451:24:46

He said Mr Johnson was "unqualified

to preach about the perils

1:24:461:24:49

of fear and betrayal".

1:24:491:24:57

The jury at the trial of the former

football coach Barry Bennell, who

1:24:571:25:01

has been found guilty of dozens of

sexual offences against young boys,

1:25:011:25:06

will continue deliberations on other

charges today. Yesterday the jury at

1:25:061:25:11

Liverpool Crown Court returned

guilty verdicts on 36 counts and

1:25:111:25:14

asked for more time to consider

seven more. Barry Bennell, who

1:25:141:25:18

appeared in court via video link due

to illness, declined to give

1:25:181:25:22

evidence in his defence.

1:25:221:25:24

A committee of MPs has said there is

a pervasive lack of trust among

1:25:241:25:28

disabled people when it comes to how

their welfare claims are assessed.

1:25:281:25:32

The comments work and pensions

committee said reports by private

1:25:321:25:36

contractors were riddled with

errors. It recommends ministers take

1:25:361:25:40

the service back in house when

contracts end with private firms.

1:25:401:25:44

The Government says the majority of

claimants are happy with their

1:25:441:25:47

overall experience.

1:25:471:25:49

Police in South Africa have raided

properties belonging to allies of

1:25:501:25:54

the President Jacob Zuma as pressure

mounts on him to step down. The

1:25:541:26:00

Gupta family have been accused of

using their friendship with the

1:26:001:26:03

president to promote them

agribusiness interests. The

1:26:031:26:07

President and the family denied

allegations. The president is

1:26:071:26:10

expected to respond later today to a

formal request from the ANC to step

1:26:101:26:15

down.

1:26:151:26:16

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:26:161:26:21

My grandparents celebrated their

Platinum wedding anniversary, they

1:26:211:26:27

have been together 73 years, the

local paper did a piece on them. But

1:26:271:26:31

I need to know your name, their

name, so we can get them on the

1:26:311:26:35

programme before 11. Thank you.

Gordon and Elizabeth, married at 21,

1:26:351:26:39

we are now in our 60 this year. OK.

Hurricane Gordon and Elizabeth are

1:26:391:26:46

winning so far because we, at least,

have their names. Keep those coming.

1:26:461:26:50

Here's some sport now.

1:26:501:26:53

A successful day so far for the

British curling teams at the Winter

1:26:531:26:57

Olympics in Pyeongchang. The women

once again led by their skip Eve

1:26:571:27:00

Muirhead and her third Olympic

Games. They had a comprehensive win

1:27:001:27:05

over the athletes from Russia

earlier. The men also won their

1:27:051:27:10

round robin against Switzerland.

Another Olympic gold for Shaun

1:27:101:27:14

White. He is known as the flying

tomato. He did not win surprisingly

1:27:141:27:21

in Sochi. He secured the 100th gold

medal for USA in Winter Olympic

1:27:211:27:30

history.

Spurs came back from 2-0 down to

1:27:301:27:33

beat Juventus. Impressive from Spurs

when you consider Juventus hadn't

1:27:331:27:36

conceded in Serie A since November.

Manchester City got a 4-0 victory

1:27:361:27:45

over Basel. It was the biggest away

win for any English team in a

1:27:451:27:51

Champions League knockout tie. That

is it for now. Much more sport

1:27:511:27:54

coming up later.

Thanks very much.

1:27:541:27:57

There are calls this morning

for more regulation of a type

1:27:571:27:59

of home business called multi-level

marketing schemes -

1:27:591:28:01

after a BBC investigation found that

some of those involved

1:28:011:28:03

were being left in thousands

of pounds worth of debt.

1:28:031:28:06

Multi-level marketing companies,

or MLMs, have been compared

1:28:061:28:08

by their critics to pyramid schemes

- though the key difference

1:28:081:28:10

is they're absolutely legal -

essentially a company employs

1:28:101:28:13

a network of independent salespeople

who sell products directly

1:28:131:28:15

to people in their community.

1:28:151:28:16

These salespeople earn income based

on their personal sales,

1:28:161:28:18

as well as the sales of people

they recruit to work

1:28:181:28:21

for the company.

1:28:211:28:22

But many people who dreamt of making

thousands of pounds a month

1:28:221:28:25

are instead ending up in debt.

1:28:251:28:26

We bought you our full report

earlier - here's a short extract.

1:28:261:28:29

-- We brought you our

full report earlier -

1:28:291:28:31

here's a short extract.

1:28:311:28:37

With all across the UK are speaking

out against £1 billion industry

1:28:371:28:43

called multilevel marketing. --

women across the UK. Let's explain

1:28:431:28:46

what it is using our fictional

company and a made up group of

1:28:461:28:51

people. The company make their own

perfumes. Fictional aim is recruited

1:28:511:29:01

by her old school friend Karen to

join her team. -- fictional Amy. Amy

1:29:011:29:14

makes money by selling purview to

her friends, and Karen gets a cut of

1:29:141:29:19

those sales. -- selling perfume. Amy

Also recruits people. Karen also

1:29:191:29:29

gets recruitment from the people Amy

signed up.

I have had fallouts with

1:29:291:29:40

my partner over it because I used

his credit cards. I have racked up

1:29:401:29:44

thousands in debt.

To me this is

everything.

These women told us that

1:29:441:29:50

they lost thousands of pounds in a

weight loss coffee drink. We

1:29:501:30:02

contacted the company and they

admit:

1:30:021:30:04

They also said:

1:30:141:30:17

We have also decided as a result of

looking into this issue that we are

1:30:261:30:29

not going to accept any recruitment

from MLMs on Mumsnet going forward.

1:30:291:30:45

They are offering women the chance,

they say, to earn a lot of money for

1:30:451:30:53

very little work while staying at

home with their children. It's a

1:30:531:30:56

lie.

The direct sales Association,

which represents some of the

1:30:561:31:02

companies, says:

1:31:021:31:03

There are some real life success

stories.

I'm currently the number

1:31:101:31:15

one position female in the UK. I

have a team of over 1800 people. It

1:31:151:31:21

means I've been able to enjoy

incredible income over the last four

1:31:211:31:25

and a half years. Three and of those

years my company has had an intake

1:31:251:31:33

of £100,000 as income.

Natasha was

successful in a company called

1:31:331:31:38

Forever Living. She has now quit and

is an outspoken critic of the whole

1:31:381:31:43

industry.

I've made some great

friends and some incredible people.

1:31:431:31:46

But three and a half years later I

decided to that industry. I started

1:31:461:31:50

to notice the negativity going on.

Stories that somebody had been

1:31:501:31:55

experiencing bullying, somebody else

experiencing cheating. 90% of it is

1:31:551:31:59

full of greedy vulture like

behaviour.

The company said:

1:31:591:32:06

Let's talk

to Labour MP Helen Hayes,

1:32:151:32:17

who has been looking

into Multi-Level Marketing

1:32:171:32:19

since a constituent contacted her

about them; John Evans who runs

1:32:191:32:23

an anti-MLM facebook group is here,

1:32:231:32:26

and Joanna Bacon,

a mum who works in MLM,

1:32:261:32:29

and says she has earned as much

as £20,000 in one month.

1:32:291:32:33

Welcome all of you. Helen, what is

the issue?

The issue is growing

1:32:331:32:39

numbers of people. We heard in the

film three quarters of them women,

1:32:391:32:43

who are being drawn into MLM

distribution networks. Often through

1:32:431:32:49

promises which bears very little

relationship to the reality of the

1:32:491:32:54

income you can achieve. I was

contacted by a constituent, Jenny,

1:32:541:32:58

who is in the film, who does

campaigning work on this issue. As

1:32:581:33:03

soon as she drew my attention to

this, what became clear was that

1:33:031:33:07

this is a very widespread. We see

MLM sales taking place at school

1:33:071:33:13

fairs, local community events, in

leisure centres. It is a widespread

1:33:131:33:18

practice. My concern is that there

are large numbers of people who find

1:33:181:33:21

themselves in genuine difficulty.

But also financial difficulty. And

1:33:211:33:27

also psychological distress as a

consequence of being caught up in

1:33:271:33:29

something which promises something

which it really cannot deliver. I

1:33:291:33:32

think it is an area where the law

hasn't kept pace with the scale of

1:33:321:33:36

change on the ground.

John Evans,

you have set up this anti-MLM

1:33:361:33:44

Facebook group. How do people get

into debt, you buy stock and then

1:33:441:33:47

sell it, what's the problem?

1:33:471:33:53

Well, they get into the group and

they buy their starter kit, and of

1:33:531:33:57

the months go wonder they don't get

sales, they are either obliged to

1:33:571:34:02

continue to purchase, or their

promotional rank is affected if they

1:34:021:34:06

don't maintain their product sales

and purchases. I can see Joanna

1:34:061:34:09

shaking her head. Obviously people

do purchase to remain active, maybe

1:34:091:34:16

not in your specific MLM, but it is

a very specific factor which keeps

1:34:161:34:27

people with their products, and

often a big factor in that is

1:34:271:34:31

autoship, where you get product each

month sent to you whether or not you

1:34:311:34:36

are selling them. You are not

distribute any more if you don't

1:34:361:34:42

maintain that autoship.

And what is

the deal about going promotional

1:34:421:34:46

rankings Chris Maguire is that a

good thing? Customers see was

1:34:461:34:49

trustworthy?

It is a recruitment,

you are more likely to get someone

1:34:491:34:58

to join your team.

Joanna, have you

really earned £20,000 in a month,

1:34:581:35:03

and presumably that is before tax?

Yes.

How?

Over the last four years,

1:35:031:35:11

I have built up incredibly large

teams, I have been a high retailer

1:35:111:35:15

in my company, so I am getting a lot

of retail profit from that, and I

1:35:151:35:19

have bonuses of large amounts as

well from the company, too.

Why

1:35:191:35:23

we're shaking your head when John

Evans was explaining the autoship

1:35:231:35:27

process and keeping high on the

rankings?

Because that might be the

1:35:271:35:32

case for one company, but it is not

the case in the company that I'm

1:35:321:35:36

involved in right now. You don't

have to do thousands upon thousands

1:35:361:35:40

to stay active, you can put through

a customer's order and you don't

1:35:401:35:44

have to take any money out of your

own pocket. I understand we both of

1:35:441:35:48

those coming from because I saw it

in previous company, I have seen

1:35:481:35:54

people spending thousands of pounds

to stay active because of the

1:35:541:35:57

criteria of that company, but it

doesn't mean that is the same for

1:35:571:36:00

every single company in the

industry.

Fair enough.

I know that

1:36:001:36:05

it goes on, and identically that is

right, but that is why I am here to

1:36:051:36:10

stand a summary who was ethical in

the industry and doing at the right

1:36:101:36:13

way.

Helen, if all that is laid out,

before somebody signed up to an MLM,

1:36:131:36:19

then it is up to you to read it and

see what conditions are an sign the

1:36:191:36:24

contract or not.

There is no

question that there are MLMs that

1:36:241:36:30

are responsibly run, but the

regulations are not there to ensure

1:36:301:36:32

that that is the case across the

industry. So I think we need three

1:36:321:36:37

quite specific changes which would

help to ensure better practice and

1:36:371:36:40

more responsible practice across the

industry, and they are that MLMs

1:36:401:36:44

should be required to publish an

independently audited statement of

1:36:441:36:49

the average earnings that their

members are able to secure after

1:36:491:36:54

costs have been taken out of that

equation. That you should not be

1:36:541:36:58

able to earn commission by

recruiting, because that is pyramid

1:36:581:37:01

selling and is illegal, it is

illegal only to do that but not

1:37:011:37:06

illegal to do it if also products

are involved, but you shouldn't be

1:37:061:37:08

able to do it. And much more

tightening up on the outlandish

1:37:081:37:11

claims that many MLMs are able to

make an social media in particular

1:37:111:37:16

where it goes unchecked about the

lifestyle that you are able to

1:37:161:37:19

realise as a consequence of

participating in an MLM, and I think

1:37:191:37:22

those changes would help to make

this a more responsibly run

1:37:221:37:28

industry.

Have you got time to say

some thing? Having transparency is

1:37:281:37:32

key, and you never get that with

MLM.

They exaggerate everything.

1:37:321:37:37

Joanna is shaking her head again. I

have read post from all the MLMs and

1:37:371:37:42

the country, they all over

exaggerate what benefit people will

1:37:421:37:44

get from joining.

The direct selling

Association which represents an MLM

1:37:441:37:49

company say, direct selling should

never be viewed as a way to get rich

1:37:491:37:52

quick. It says it operates a strict

code of conduct which protects

1:37:521:37:56

direct sellers and consumers. I know

you have loads more to say, I know.

1:37:561:38:02

And we have said a lot. Thank you

for coming on.

1:38:021:38:08

In the past few minutes,

a senior official

1:38:081:38:10

for the African National Congress

has increased pressure

1:38:101:38:18

on South Africa's President Zuma

to step down, saying

1:38:181:38:20

the deadline for his

1:38:201:38:21

resignation will expire today.

1:38:211:38:24

It is very clear for us at the ANC,

we can no longer wait. We don't want

1:38:241:38:30

to keep South Africa waiting. If

President Zuma will respond, he will

1:38:301:38:40

respond, but we can't continue

waiting. The decision has been taken

1:38:401:38:44

and must be implemented. So my

message to the caucus today was just

1:38:441:38:48

that must now proceed to the

process.

Lets talk to our

1:38:481:38:55

correspondent Pumza Fihlani who is

in Pretoria. We were expecting Jacob

1:38:551:39:01

Zuma, worry not? He didn't show, but

we had this instead.

We certainly

1:39:011:39:08

were, but we always understood this

was waiting in the wings should the

1:39:081:39:11

president not give an answer that

the ANC wanted to hear. We don't

1:39:111:39:14

know what happened behind closed

doors, but all indications seem to

1:39:141:39:17

point that the ANC is pressing ahead

with the Parliamentary process, and

1:39:171:39:21

this would mean a vote of

no-confidence. We understand that

1:39:211:39:24

this is scheduled for tomorrow, and

they have said if there is time,

1:39:241:39:28

they want to proceed with the

process of electing a new

1:39:281:39:32

replacement for Jacob Zuma.

Thank very much.

1:39:321:39:40

The prescription drug Xanax is being

sold to teenagers and social media,

1:39:401:39:48

so we understand. It can only be

obtained on private perception here

1:39:481:39:53

in Britain. The drugs charity

AdAction says children as young as

1:39:531:39:58

13 are buying it online.

When we buy

acid, it would be £10 per tab, and

1:39:581:40:03

then he would sell us Xanax on the

side.

1:40:031:40:06

Everyone I know uses drugs.

1:40:131:40:15

With us now is Harry Shapiro.

1:41:071:41:09

He's the director

1:41:091:41:10

of UK charity Drug Wise.

1:41:101:41:13

What is Xanax and how can it affect

you?

It is in the family of

1:41:131:41:19

benzodiazepine tranquillisers, so

the same family as Valium and

1:41:191:41:26

diazepam, but it is about 20 times

stronger than Valium, which is

1:41:261:41:30

probably one of the reasons why you

can't get it on the NHS in this

1:41:301:41:33

country. And it is prescribed for

treating anxiety and depression, so

1:41:331:41:42

from a recreation point of view,

people would be feeling euphoric. It

1:41:421:41:47

is called buzzy. You feel quite

distant from things, wrapped up in

1:41:471:41:55

cotton wool to a certain extent. It

takes the edge off life if you are

1:41:551:42:00

using it medically, but it is also

used recreationally to take the edge

1:42:001:42:05

off other kinds of drugs like

ecstasy.

But if you are 13 and

1:42:051:42:11

buying it illegally on social media,

why are you buying it?

For two

1:42:111:42:14

reasons. There is a whole culture of

just getting stoned in one way,

1:42:141:42:21

shape or form, and that can just be

with alcohol or dangerously mixing

1:42:211:42:26

alcohol with other drugs like Xanax.

But also the medical health

1:42:261:42:31

charities speak a lot these days

about increasing mental health

1:42:311:42:34

problems amongst young people, and

the difficulties of getting

1:42:341:42:38

treatment. And I think a part of

this at least is self medication as

1:42:381:42:41

well.

Thank you very much, thank you

for coming on the programme.

1:42:411:42:54

Throughout the programme this

morning we've been trying

1:42:541:42:56

to find the couple who've been

together the longest.

1:42:561:42:58

Here are some couples that

have all been married

1:42:581:43:01

for more than 50 years.

1:43:011:43:04

Let's speak to 93-year-old

Joan Rimmer in Oxford who got

1:44:251:44:30

engaged to her partner 70 years ago

today and got married in 1949.

1:44:301:44:40

Her son texted us their story.

1:44:421:44:44

Joan cares for her husband Paul,

who is terminally ill.

1:44:441:44:48

Hello. How are you?

Well, struggling

a bit, but coping.

OK. But you and

1:44:481:44:56

Paul have been together for such a

long time.

Yes. We first went out

1:44:561:45:03

together when we were 16.

Did you?

We were at school together.

When did

1:45:031:45:08

you fall in love with him? How old

were you then?

Well, shortly after

1:45:081:45:13

going out. We were parted of course

as part of the war, and he went and

1:45:131:45:22

trained to fly in America, came back

to study in Oxford, and I was

1:45:221:45:27

teaching somewhere, but we always

knew if anybody else became

1:45:271:45:31

interested, well, actually, you

know, there's Paul. So that's it.

1:45:311:45:42

We've been fortunate enough to live

so long. Not many people together in

1:45:421:45:48

their 90s these days.

And ups and

downs over that time? You mention

1:45:481:45:51

war, clearly.

Not in our time

together, I don't think. We've had

1:45:511:46:01

sadness in our marriage, our

daughter died during a hip operation

1:46:011:46:07

in her early 50s, so that was pretty

shattering, but one survives. It's

1:46:071:46:20

good. In fact, we are very fortunate

that even now, Paul isn't in pain,

1:46:201:46:27

you know. We are just getting gently

towards the end of our lives, that's

1:46:271:46:31

it.

Do you still feel like a team?

Yes, absolutely. He is getting

1:46:311:46:38

weaker, which is sometimes difficult

to cope with, and a bit confused,

1:46:381:46:43

but it comes to us all, really,

doesn't it?

It does.

And if we are

1:46:431:46:50

fortunate enough that I can look

after him at home, which is

1:46:501:46:53

marvellous, and he isn't in pain,

those are the two things we are

1:46:531:46:57

thankful for. And we have a lot of

support, friends and neighbours, the

1:46:571:47:02

congregation of St Peter's where

Paul helps a lot when he was

1:47:021:47:10

retired.

Joan, we are grateful that

you spoke to us today. Thank you so

1:47:101:47:15

much, and best wishes to Paul.

When

will we hear this?

It has gone out

1:47:151:47:20

live now! Have a good day.

1:47:201:47:22

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