16/02/2018 Victoria Derbyshire


16/02/2018

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Hello, it's Friday, it's 9 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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welcome to the programme.

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The top story today, dozens more

complaints have been made against

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the former football coach temp max

one. -- Barry Bennell. It was this

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interview which prompted so many

others to come forward.

My career

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has been ruined, relationships have

been ruined, I just... I had to get

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it out there.

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Today three of those

players are back with us -

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and they're joined by another man

who will tell us he was abused

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by Barry Bennell on the pitch

at Man City's old ground,

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Maine Road.

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This morning in an exclusive

interview - a former

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board member at Crewe,

Hamilton Smith, tells us he warned

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the club about Bennell's behaviour

towards young boys in the late

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1980s, but Bennell was allowed

to stay in his job.

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With all the banter that was going

on, the special board meeting we

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had, they are still saying they did

not know something was going on.

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Also this morning we can reveal new

allegations have been made that

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Barry Bennell abused boys while

working at a care home in Derbyshire

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is the same time he was a coach at

Manchester City.

A lot of the boys

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talked about him abusing other boys

while at the home and getting

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involved with them, taking them to

his flat, things like that.

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This morning: football's biggest

crisis - stay with us for this

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special programme on football abuse.

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And do get in touch

in the usual ways -

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send an email [email protected]

or can you message us on twitter -

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use the hastag #VictoriaLive.

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Hello.

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This morning on the Victoria

Derbyshire Programme serious

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questions for two large

professional football clubs.

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Could more have been done to protect

dozens of young players

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from horrific sexual abuse?

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Next week the former football coach

Barry Bennell will be sentenced

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for abusing 12 young boys

over three decades.

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Jim Reed reports.

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My name is Steve Walters.

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I was abused by Barry Bennell.

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Left damaged by a man who,

for three decades, went

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almost unchallenged.

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Three footballers yesterday

waiving their rights to anonymity

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to talk about the abuse they went

through as young children.

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For years, hundreds of us

were groomed in plain view.

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The shame, the nightmares...

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No child should suffer

the way we did.

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How can it be that no one realised

something was wrong?

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Barry Bennell, now 64,

watched by video link

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as the verdicts were read

out in court.

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Shaking his head, as he was found

guilty of every charge against him.

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The jury heard him described

as an abuser on an industrial scale,

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a man who used threats and promises

to groom both children

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and their families.

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He abused them time and time again.

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He abused them at his home,

in his car, at Butlins holiday

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camp and while on tour.

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Next week he will be sentenced

for offences against 12 players.

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It is his fourth prison term

after a first conviction in 1994

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in the United States.

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Good morning, we are talking

to Chris Unsworth...

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The verdict comes more than a year

after two of those players appeared

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live on this programme.

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They spoke out alongside former

Crewe footballer Andy Woodward,

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another of Bennell's victims.

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Careers have been ruined,

relationships have been ruined.

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It is understood the

investigation into Bennell's

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crimes may not be over.

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Police have taken calls

from another 86 men who said

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there were abused by the coach,

a coach who, for three decades,

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went almost unchallenged

by the clubs who worked for.

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went almost unchallenged

by the clubs he worked for.

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Big questions, tough questions for

the clubs involved. We spoke to

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people who used to work in very

senior positions at both clubs,

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concerns were being raised 40-50

years ago. We will hear from the

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former managing director of crew

Alexandrova FC who said concerns

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were raised at board level, the club

has was denied this and we've

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uncovered new allegations while

Barry Bennell was a coach at

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Manchester City he was also

allegedly abusing boys at a care

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home.

Thank you. In a moment an

exclusive interview with these men

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who were all abused by Barry

Bennell. We will talk to Andy

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Woodward, Gary Cliff, Steve Walters

in just a moment. But first...

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Annita is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the days news.

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The head of Oxfam International says

the charity will look into

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Anyone his

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allegations of sexual abuse.

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whiny beanie met said any complaint

would be examined and wrongdoers

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would be held to account.

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Police in Florida say the teenager

accused of killing 17 people

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at a high school on Wednesday has

confessed to the shooting.

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19-year-old Nikolas Cruz has

appeared in court charged with 17

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counts of premeditated murder.

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It's emerged the FBI had been

alerted to potential warning signs

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of the former student's intentions

in the past.

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New figures show a dramatic

reduction in the number of young

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people buying their own

homes across the UK,

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over the last 20 years.

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The Institute for Fiscal Studies

found only a quarter

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of those aged 25 to 34,

on average incomes,

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were able to buy a property,

compared to 2 out of 3 in 1998.

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A BBC investigation has revealed

a significant difference

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between the highest earning male

and female consultants working

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for the NHS in England.

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Figures show that one in five

of the top 100 earners are women,

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while on average full time men

earned £14,000 a year more

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than their female counterparts

when including

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bonuses and overtime.

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Of the top 100 earning consultants

five are women despite more than a

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third of the workforce being female.

The Department of Health says it is

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committed to ensuring doctors are

awarded early and equally regardless

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of gender. -- fairly and equally.

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The Hollywood actress

Jennifer Aniston has announced

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she is to separate from her husband

Justin Theroux after

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two years of marriage.

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The pair, who were married

in a secret ceremony

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in Los Angeles in 2015,

reportedly met on the set

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of comedy film Wanderlust.

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They gave no reason for the split

but said it was a mutual decision

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which had been "lovingly made"

at the end of last year.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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Messages already for you town-mac --

from you for these men who gave

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evidence against Barry Bennell,

Hillary said all praise to these men

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for coming forward, such courage, I

hope this verdict gives them some

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peace in their lives. Leanne says

it's horrific for the victims and

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unimaginable for their parents,

heartbreakingly sad.

Thank you for

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those.

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

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use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and If you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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Let's get some sport...Hugh is here.

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Good morning. Good morning. Britain

has its first medal of the Winter

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Olympics, a bronze medal, in

dramatic fashion as to Dominic

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Parsons and the skeleton. Fourth

overnight, moved into third after a

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strong run, a solid final outing

secured bronze but he faltered

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slightly, it was enough to make it

look like he was going to finish

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outside the medals. Those above him

in the standings delighted but

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Parsons got his chance had gone,

then came the twist. The five-time

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world champion from Latvia made a

mistake in his final run, cute

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surprise, it left Parsons picking up

a bronze and claiming the first

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medal in Pyeongchang.

I thought I'd

lost it, after that, before

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throwing, I looked up at the board

and I made a couple too many

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mistakes but he made more, the last

person I thought would.

After

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finishing seventh in his first

cross-country skiing event Andrew

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Musgrave suffered more in the 15

kilometres freestyle coming in 28th.

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This Swiss winner claimed his fourth

Olympic title. Elsewhere away from

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Pyeongchang Alex McLeish has agreed

to become Scotland manager of the

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second time until 2020, 11 years

since he left the job first time.

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The former Rangers and Birmingham

boss replaces Boardman Strachan.

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Michael O'Neill the Northern Ireland

manager was unable to be secured for

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the job. Liam Plunkett has

aggravated a terror he suffered in

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the one-day series against

Australia, he returned for the tri-

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series against New Zealand. England

said Abel announce a replacement in

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the coming days, the one-day series

against New Zealand starting a week

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on Sunday. That's your sport. Thank

you.

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15 months ago this

programme exclusively

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spoke to these four men -

who with quiet emotion told

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you about the horrific sexual abuse

they'd experienced three and a half

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decades earlier, as young

footballers - abuse perpetrated

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by their coach Barry Bennell who had

links with Manchester City

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junior teams and worked

at Crewe Alexandra Football club.

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They also told you they believed

dozens of other boys had also

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been abused by Bennell.

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They were right.

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As a result of that interview -

many more came forward to say

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they too had been abused by the same

coach, and in fact

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others in football.

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Now Bennell - described in court

as a "predatory paedophile" has been

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convicted of 43 sexual offences

on boys he was meant to mentor.

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It's the fourth time the paedophile

coach has been convicted of crimes

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ranging from indecent assault

to rape.

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He will be sentenced on Monday and

is facing the rest of his life we

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find bars. We can speak exclusively

to three men who gave evidence in

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the most recent trial and the former

player who lifted the lid on

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football abuse. Andy Woodward, whose

initial interview on this programme

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and the Guardian prompted others to

speak out including some of these

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here today. Chris Unsworth who told

us 15 months ago he had been raped

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up to 100 times by Barry Bennell up

to the age of nine. Steve Walters

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who broke three decades of public

silence to tell us about the abuse

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he experienced from the age of 12

when he stayed at the home of Barry

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Bennell. And also Gary Cliff, who

was abused by Barry Bennell than he

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was a junior team player. They have

all waived their right to anonymity

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to talk to you this morning and as

you would expect, some of what we

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talk about will be graphic and Frank

and you may not want children to

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listen. Good morning. Good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for coming

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back, already I have dozens and

dozens and dozens of messages from

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viewers saying you are very brave

men. I want to ask you how you are

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feeling after the final verdict

yesterday. Gary.

Victoria, I can't

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believe I am sat here with you. I

have waited two and a half years

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basically to sit here with you, to

speak about this. I came forward in

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September 2015, and I suppose she

could say I have waited over 30

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years, really. Myself, I got seven

counts guilty, six on Tuesday, and I

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had to wait a day and yesterday, I

got the final count of guilty to

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make seven but what I can say,

Victoria, if people think this is

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horrific, this isn't even scratching

the surface. You know and I know the

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real number is tenfold in terms of

offences and lads affected by this.

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So I am delighted at the result

but... We've got the sentence on

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Monday, but another hurdle to go to.

I will be attending the personal

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statement...

But as far as you are

concerned, as prolific as we know

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this paedophile was, you said this

is still the tip of the iceberg?

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Yes, in terms of lives that have

come forward, I know there's many

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more lads out there and I am hoping

they can find strength, they don't

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have to go to the police, just

confide in family, friends, because

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they cannot carry that burden. When

I saw the lads in November 20 16th,

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absolutely phenomenal, I was

working, I was searching someone's

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house and the messages were coming

through and it was so impacted and

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we want to reach out to those

people, that crap is not there is to

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carry. It really isn't. It is his.

To carry.

We can help them. OK.

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Steve, do you feel justice has been

done?

Yes. We've had six weeks of

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torment, the ordeal of going through

the cord procedure was awful. -- the

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cord procedure. Going to the stand,

telling complete strangers, your

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family, your friends, about your

abuse, more importantly the jury.

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Thankfully they believe doesn't came

to the right conclusion. I feel now

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I've got a bit of justice and that

man no longer has the power over me,

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I've got the power over him, to me

he is a pathetic little man, dirty

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little man, ruining peoples lives

but he's not going to ruin my life

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any more. So I want to move onwards

and upwards.

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Chris you have known for decades

what Barry

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Chris you have known for decades

what Barry Bennell was, a devious

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paedophile, abusing young boys on an

industrial scale. What does it feel

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like to now know that the rest of

the country will appreciate how

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dangerous he was?

Like Gary said, we

knew a year ago how big this was

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going to be. Now it is coming to

light. Like he said, it is just the

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tip of the iceberg. We know there

are more and more lads out there.

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Hopefully, us being here today, it

may give them the strength to come

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forward. There is light at the end

of the tunnel.

When you are hearing

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those verdicts come in for each

offence, guilty, guilty, that must

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have been so emotional for all of

you?

It was a roller-coaster that

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day. Obviously they didn't all come

in. The first one came in, I had

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five charges read out, all guilty.

The boy next to me, he didn't. It

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was just a roller-coaster. They went

on and on. Just very hard to explain

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that day. The next day, the jury

didn't sit, so it's dragged a little

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bit. But we got there in the end.

I

think you were holding hands towards

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the end yesterday? In court?

We were

sat on the back row, all in it

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together. None of us could

celebrate, really, told a lot of us

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had guilty verdicts. It felt like

you were cheating, my three charges

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were guilty, but there were other

guys that are still waiting on

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verdicts. We were in this

altogether.

Bennell appeared via

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video link. He was not in the

courtroom. What did you think when

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you saw him on the screen?

For

myself, Victoria... He was nothing

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to me. It was not how I remembered

him as a kid. He should have been in

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the court, as far as I am concerned.

That is another story. I was focused

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on giving my evidence. I wanted to

get my stuff out there.

You will be

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in the same courtroom on Monday when

sentencing happens, to hear what

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punishment he will get for what he

did to you. How do you feel about

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seeing him face-to-face?

I have

always said I want to have my day

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with him, look him in the eye,

face-to-face. We didn't get that

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chance when the trial was going on.

Monday, I will be there and I will

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look him in the eye.

It's important

for you he is there?

It is important

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for me personally, just to get that

closure, hopefully to hear the judge

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say... Well, hopefully life in

prison.

Steve, is it important for

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you that Barry Bennell is in court

on Monday?

Like Chris just

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mentioned, that will be the final

chapter of it, and give us the

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chance to move on. This man, up to

the last, has shown no remorse. I

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want the opportunity to look him in

the eye and say I am over you now.

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He has no power over me. You know, I

am going on, I am surviving, moving

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on. He has not beaten us, he has not

beaten me, he has not beaten us. We

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are still here and we are going to

start a new chapter in our lives.

He

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has ruined our childhood, ruined our

dreams. But he will not ruin our

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lives.

Andy, you are the man that

started all of this. You spent a lot

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of time in court, supporting these

guys. What was this experience like

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for you?

Yes, it was just... I'm

really proud of the guys, because it

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is a gruelling process, and a long

process to go through. Unbeknownst

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to me, when I broke the story, I

didn't realise that Gary was...

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Obviously he had previously reported

it. It brought back a lot of

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memories with Gary. But I am proud

of Gary, being able to stick this

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through for two and a half years,

which is a long time. Also for me,

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there were elements were, back in

1997, when I did give my statement,

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it was quite rushed. I had only just

broke it to my parents. The

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statement was 10% or 20% of what

happened to me. I had a decision to

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make last year, whether I wanted to

do a further statement, and I chose

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not to do that because of the

magnitude of everything, and what I

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was doing in terms of my mental

well-being. For me, it was a relief

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that the guys got the guilty

verdict, and they were able to move

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forward with their lives. You know,

it has such an impact on people's

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lives.

I want to ask you, Gary, and

I know you are comfortable talking

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to the audience about this, but when

the abuse first began. It was pretty

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much as soon as he got to know Barry

Bennell, in a Manchester City junior

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team?

Yes, I got scouted by a

Manchester City Scout, not Barry.

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But very quickly he became a coach,

and he came up with a story that he

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wanted each member of the new team

to go to his house, two by two, to

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get to know them, meet and greet. So

there was no grooming process with

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me. The first Friday night I stayed

there, at his home, the abuse

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started. Two boys in the bed, he was

in the middle, straightaway it was

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sexual touching.

How old were you?

11. And it just goes on. I have said

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it in the interviews, you let it

happen the first time, you are a

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child, you feel complicit in it, it

goes on, you go back the following

0:22:150:22:19

week and it goes on. You have not

got the words, you've not got the

0:22:190:22:22

vocabulary to express. You know it

is wrong, but there is nobody to

0:22:220:22:26

speak to. Lads didn't speak to each

other, no parents said anything, no

0:22:260:22:32

officials were saying anything.

What

did you think was going on? You must

0:22:320:22:37

have been feeling desperate?

You

know it is wrong, but you think, is

0:22:370:22:42

a defection? Is it... Is this what

you have got to go through? -- is it

0:22:420:22:48

a affection.

0:22:480:22:55

Best football I have ever seen, even

to this day, it was a perfect storm,

0:22:580:23:02

almost a perfect crime, because he

was that good. He was at a

0:23:020:23:06

professional club, Manchester City.

The football was brilliant. We would

0:23:060:23:10

go all over the country, beating

everybody. But the other side of it

0:23:100:23:15

has totally ruined my life.

We are

showing images of you as a young

0:23:150:23:19

boy. In terms of your own story, you

were from Plymouth, coming up to

0:23:190:23:26

crew, were Barry Bennell was

working. You were away from home,

0:23:260:23:33

away from your parents, and you

lived at his home. Your parents

0:23:330:23:35

trusted him, you trusted him. In

terms of the grooming process, that

0:23:350:23:43

home had free kit, it had a jukebox,

it had exotic animals.

He had a pool

0:23:430:23:51

table, jukebox, a puma or a panther,

he even had a monkey. He had a room

0:23:510:23:59

full of sports gear, you could just

go in and help yourself. I came from

0:23:590:24:04

Plymouth, no disrespect to Plymouth

back then, but designer gear was

0:24:040:24:08

never something that reached down

there, it was cut off from society.

0:24:080:24:13

Walking around in decent sports

gear, it was part of his grooming

0:24:130:24:19

process.

You had England prospects.

You were such a promising player.

0:24:190:24:29

What impact did what he did have on

you?

I just became totally reserved.

0:24:290:24:42

All of a sudden, I stopped staying

at his house, I was not allowed to

0:24:420:24:45

stay there. So, I went to an FA

School of excellence and became

0:24:450:24:51

totally reserved. I was training

nonstop, just to try to forget about

0:24:510:24:56

it. I will bury my head in my

football, try and forget about what

0:24:560:25:04

happened. It just totally messes up

your childhood.

The first time he

0:25:040:25:18

tried to abuse you, you told him to

clear off. Which is when he began

0:25:180:25:24

with mind games, what did he do?

He

started playing me in different

0:25:240:25:28

positions. For the first time ever

he made me a substitute. Looking

0:25:280:25:32

back now, I think I even went to

another club for a short spell and

0:25:320:25:38

came back again, it affected me that

much. Eventually he brought me down,

0:25:380:25:46

the amount of lads from back then

were surprised, because they thought

0:25:460:25:51

I was strong. But you look at the

photographs, I was just a child and

0:25:510:25:55

I have no chance. I can always

remember, he got me in a pressure

0:25:550:26:03

point somewhere, it might have been

on my neck or my back, and you're

0:26:030:26:06

just paralysed with fear. He had

none -- he would intimidate you, and

0:26:060:26:16

you are paralysed with fear.

You

told the court that the only people

0:26:160:26:20

you told about the abuse that

Bennell subjected you to work us on

0:26:200:26:26

this programme, our audience, when

you spoke live that day in November

0:26:260:26:32

2016, to the police, and to the jury

in court. Why do you think you

0:26:320:26:37

haven't told anyone else?

I don't

know, really. I must feel ashamed.

0:26:370:26:46

Or... I don't really know. Still

now, I have never really disclosed

0:26:460:26:53

any information to my family, still.

My sister, my brother, my nephews,

0:26:530:27:01

my partner. My partner read my

police statement on the day that I

0:27:010:27:07

appeared in court, and she wrote --

broke down. I can talk about it. It

0:27:070:27:16

does help me talk about it. But I

won't really bring it up. If people

0:27:160:27:20

ask me, I'm not ashamed at all. You

know, we were all boys.

What was it

0:27:200:27:28

like to carry that around with you

privately, for decades?

Like I have

0:27:280:27:33

said many times, I just forgot about

it. My life as a boy, playing

0:27:330:27:41

football, we had ups and downs. But

the abuse side, I just completely

0:27:410:27:45

forgot about it. Like I said on this

show, luckily, when I was 14 or 15,

0:27:450:27:52

I never wanted to play football

again and I turned to golf, and that

0:27:520:27:56

was my passion. That was my get out.

I am going to read some more

0:27:560:28:00

messages from people watching right

around the country. This tweet from

0:28:000:28:08

Saffron, feeling so proud of these

victims coming through and breaking

0:28:080:28:11

the silence. Every victim that

chooses to do so helps to make the

0:28:110:28:15

world a better place. This is an

e-mail from David, I have watched

0:28:150:28:18

this story from the beginning, I

feel sympathy for these men. Deirdre

0:28:180:28:24

posted on Facebook, for these men it

is such a painful part of their

0:28:240:28:27

lives and they have to get through

each day with the memories, but I

0:28:270:28:30

believe their courage in speaking

out will help others, children and

0:28:300:28:33

adults, to speak out about abuse

they are suffering or have suffered.

0:28:330:28:37

Stay strong, you are not alone.

People do care and want to stop this

0:28:370:28:42

happening to others. This text

message from somebody who does not

0:28:420:28:45

leave their name, I am inspired by

the guys that have spoken out. I was

0:28:450:28:53

abused by a teacher at school and it

is making me think I should speak

0:28:530:28:57

out. My heart goes out to them. I

mean, that is quite something.

Yes.

0:28:570:29:05

Because of what you are doing,

others are thinking, maybe I can do

0:29:050:29:07

this.

It is a huge burden to carry

on your shoulders. If you are

0:29:070:29:16

keeping that locked away inside one

person's mind, you have got to come

0:29:160:29:20

forward and tell somebody. Go to the

police, go to any support services,

0:29:200:29:25

just do the right thing. Tell

somebody.

What would you say?

Yes,

0:29:250:29:32

you know, it is like Steve just

said. I think the people that

0:29:320:29:40

understand and know what it feels

like to block that pain in for such

0:29:400:29:45

a long time. Some people take it to

the grave. I do believe, if I hadn't

0:29:450:29:52

done what I did in November, lads

would probably, some of them, they

0:29:520:29:58

would have targeted to the grave. It

is living with that burden. It ruins

0:29:580:30:03

people's lives. I do believe that

there is help out there. Now it is

0:30:030:30:08

such a focal point, since November,

that I think people are starting to

0:30:080:30:12

get a voice. More and more people

killed courage to get the help. Even

0:30:120:30:23

if they are not going to report it

to the police. The support networks,

0:30:230:30:29

family members, whoever it is, just

to let go of that. It is torture.

0:30:290:30:39

Do you think you would have spoken

out if it hadn't been for Andy,

0:30:390:30:44

Chris?

No, I don't think I would. I

only saw Andy's face and I knew

0:30:440:30:50

exactly what this story was about.

I'm sure I would have taken this to

0:30:500:30:55

my grave.

I read the article in the

Guardian newspaper and the

0:30:550:31:02

experience was just the same as

mine. We used to stay all the time

0:31:020:31:09

together at his house.

Gary, you

were abused by Barry Bennell in the

0:31:090:31:17

car at your home, at his home and

also on the pitch at Maine Road, the

0:31:170:31:23

Manchester City old ground.

This has

been said in cord, I was asked

0:31:230:31:32

whether prosecutor, he went through

the locations, yes, on the pitch at

0:31:320:31:34

Maine Road, probably 12, 13 years,

pre-season, summertime, to walk out

0:31:340:31:42

of that tunnel as any footballer

knows, onto the massive expanse of

0:31:420:31:49

the green pitch is amazing, no one

there, I can remember apart from the

0:31:490:31:55

Granz man, he had the run of the

place, me and one other boy, spied

0:31:550:32:02

an opportunity just behind the goal,

I think it was the North stand, as

0:32:020:32:06

he did in them days, he carried a

bit of coconut oil around with him

0:32:060:32:11

as some of the boys would know, we

had track a bottom is on and it was

0:32:110:32:17

a sexual assault on the pitch, two

or three times during pre-season.

0:32:170:32:21

Yes.

What do you think of that when

you look back now?

I am constantly

0:32:210:32:31

kind of sort of, the football side

of it was brilliant, you go in

0:32:310:32:38

there, due or on the pitch and you

want to be a footballer and that

0:32:380:32:44

happens, the great skua part, you

are constantly in limbo which way to

0:32:440:32:47

go with it. But loads of regrets.

Why do you say that? You carry the

0:32:470:32:58

Guild.

That thing of should you have

said something. Because boys after

0:32:580:33:06

me, you carry that guilt, lads

younger than me that suffered, then

0:33:060:33:16

you turn it around, lads before me,

you carry massive irrational

0:33:160:33:25

thoughts, I've been diagnosed with

PTSD, I know it's stupid that you

0:33:250:33:29

can't turn them off.

Andy, 40 you

say to Gary when he says he feels

0:33:290:33:38

guilt?

When we first met it was

really emotional. Because I used to

0:33:380:33:43

look up to Gary and he used to cook

the food for us as younger boys. But

0:33:430:33:50

it's like I said to him, I also have

the same guilt and I've had that for

0:33:500:33:56

many, many years with younger ones

than I was and living with that, its

0:33:560:34:02

tortuous, the PTSD that I have, it

runs through your mind about, I

0:34:020:34:07

could have done something, why

didn't I? Why didn't I? But we all

0:34:070:34:13

know that hidden secret that we had,

I said to Gary, it's the same for

0:34:130:34:19

me, even the older ones, it's the

same burden and guilt that you live

0:34:190:34:25

with but I really don't think that

people fully understand the

0:34:250:34:30

magnitude and the power that man had

over all of us. Honestly, honestly,

0:34:300:34:42

it was just horrendous the power he

had and it just shows the silence we

0:34:420:34:46

all had for many, many years, but I

don't think any of us should feel

0:34:460:34:51

guilty. Because what he did, he was

a master at it, he was a master.

0:34:510:35:01

Thank you for speaking so candidly,

I know you are staying here, we've

0:35:010:35:05

got much more to talk about and

there are so many messages which of

0:35:050:35:09

course I want to read to you. Thank

you for the moment.

0:35:090:35:13

Let's talk in a little more detail

about the clubs that Barry Bennell

0:35:130:35:17

worked for and that these

men played for.

0:35:170:35:18

Our reporter Jim Reed has been

looking at those links.

0:35:180:35:21

Jim.

0:35:210:35:22

As you've heard Barry Bennell worked

for two clubs over three decades -

0:35:220:35:25

Manchester City and Crewe Alexandra.

0:35:250:35:26

We've been asking what officials

there knew about his behaviour.

0:35:260:35:30

And whether more could and should

have been done to protect young

0:35:300:35:32

players in his care.

0:35:320:35:34

To boys and parents

he was the star maker.

0:35:380:35:41

A talented coach who could

make or break dreams

0:35:410:35:43

of turning professional.

0:35:430:35:45

Barry Bennell had strong

links to two teams...

0:35:450:35:48

Manchester City and Crewe Alexandra.

0:35:480:35:52

He was this Pied Piper character.

0:35:520:35:56

What young boy who aspired to be

a professional footballer wouldn't

0:35:560:36:01

look up to that character,

and respond to what they said

0:36:010:36:04

was necessary in order

to make that grade?

0:36:040:36:06

Those Man City links

go back to the 1970s.

0:36:060:36:14

Bennell ran local feeder teams,

with the best players

0:36:140:36:16

joining the City set up.

0:36:160:36:18

From early on, there were rumours

about his behaviour.

0:36:180:36:20

Steve Fleet was in charge

of the Man City youth team.

0:36:200:36:22

He told us he was under

pressure to hire Bennell,

0:36:220:36:25

and give him an official role

at the club.

0:36:250:36:27

I put my foot down.

0:36:270:36:30

I wasn't working with

a person like that.

0:36:300:36:32

I'd heard he was doing things

with kids that weren't normal.

0:36:320:36:35

That time, Fleet said

he won the argument.

0:36:350:36:38

It was after he left, in 1980,

that it appears Bennell

0:36:380:36:41

became more involved.

0:36:410:36:42

Yes, he was definitely part

of the Manchester City set up.

0:36:420:36:46

Whether or not they paid his wages,

I don't honestly know.

0:36:460:36:51

Manchester City is now conducting

its own review into this case.

0:36:510:36:54

Bennell's victims are convinced more

could have been done.

0:36:540:36:59

Even though there were very

clear warnings given,

0:36:590:37:02

those warnings seem to be

just flatly ignored.

0:37:020:37:05

It's not clear why Bennell left

City, but in 1984 he ended up

0:37:050:37:08

at another club in the north-west.

0:37:080:37:12

Crewe Alexandra was struggling

in the old Fourth Division.

0:37:140:37:18

The club had just appointed a young

manager, Dario Gradi, who knew

0:37:180:37:21

Bennell from his time at Chelsea.

0:37:210:37:24

Bennell was on the club payroll,

responsible for youth

0:37:240:37:26

development and scouting.

0:37:260:37:29

There's more to it than just coming

here one hour a week.

0:37:290:37:32

They need to - well,

we give them homework.

0:37:320:37:34

He was so good at bringing

players through, that

0:37:340:37:38

when they were sold on,

Gradi asked for Bennell to receive

0:37:380:37:40

a share of the money,

according to the club's

0:37:400:37:42

then managing director.

0:37:420:37:44

Again, though, there were rumours

about Barry Bennell's dark side.

0:37:440:37:49

The mother of a young Crewe player

said she sent an anonymous letter

0:37:490:37:52

to complain about boys sharing hotel

beds with Bennell.

0:37:520:37:56

Someone must have known

it was going on, it can't just have

0:37:560:37:59

been me that told somebody

there was something going on.

0:37:590:38:02

But there was no allegation

of abuse, and we don't know if that

0:38:020:38:05

letter was ever received by Crewe.

0:38:050:38:09

The strongest warning, though,

is said to have come

0:38:090:38:11

from within the club itself.

0:38:110:38:14

Former managing director

Hamilton Smith said he told

0:38:140:38:18

the club's then chairman,

and the board, about Bennell's

0:38:180:38:20

contacts with young boys.

0:38:200:38:25

Everybody involved could have done

and should have done a lot more.

0:38:250:38:28

Dario Gradi has always

denied any wrongdoing,

0:38:280:38:34

and says the first he or anyone else

at Crewe knew of any crimes was

0:38:340:38:38

after Barry Bennell left the club.

0:38:380:38:39

Crewe Alexandra say if they had

any suspicion Bennell

0:38:390:38:41

was committing acts of abuse,

they would have called

0:38:410:38:43

the police immediately.

0:38:430:38:53

In addition, we know another 86

people have contact at police with

0:38:550:39:01

complaints against Barry Bennell,

the Football Association has opened

0:39:010:39:06

its own independent inquiry into

historic abuse in football, that is

0:39:060:39:11

due to report back later this year

and we think one of the main focus

0:39:110:39:14

is will be if clubs could have done

more, should have known more about

0:39:140:39:18

what was going on and we understand

they have taken evidence from many

0:39:180:39:21

of the people you heard from in that

film. Let me ask you, I was taught

0:39:210:39:27

with you Steve, Hamilton Smith, the

then manager spoke to the chairman

0:39:270:39:31

about rumours surrounding Barry

Bennell, there was that special

0:39:310:39:36

board meeting Jim told us about cold

to discuss Barry Bennell

0:39:360:39:42

specifically. How do you react to

that?

So upsetting. I mentioned to

0:39:420:39:51

you before, I always thought Dario

saved me from Barry Bennell.

0:39:510:40:02

Obviously the information that has

kind of, forward, I don't think for

0:40:020:40:05

one second Dario would ever have

done anything himself, I've always

0:40:050:40:10

looked up to him but somebody about

football club from management level

0:40:100:40:16

or board level must have known, you

know, the rumours, the suspicions.

0:40:160:40:25

They did know because that's what

Hamilton Smith...

Hamilton is a

0:40:250:40:31

lovely fella, I've spoke to him an a

few times and he's very passionate

0:40:310:40:35

about this, why would somebody like

that come forward without any

0:40:350:40:40

substance? The club need to take a

good look at themselves and address

0:40:400:40:47

this.

The club released a statement

yesterday saying they would like to

0:40:470:40:55

express their deepest sympathies to

the victims of Barry Bennell, they

0:40:550:40:58

go on the club would like to

reiterate it was not aware of any

0:40:580:41:01

sexual abuse nor did it received any

complaints about sexual abuse by him

0:41:010:41:07

either before or during his

employment with the club. Further

0:41:070:41:11

the police have recently undertaken

a third investigation to determine

0:41:110:41:13

what knowledge drew Alexandrova may

have had at the offending while he

0:41:130:41:17

was employed as a coach and as a

result the police found no evidence

0:41:170:41:21

to corroborate the club was aware of

Barry Bennell's offending, they want

0:41:210:41:26

to make it absolutely clear had they

had any suspicion or belief he was

0:41:260:41:31

committing acts of abuse either

before, during or after he left the

0:41:310:41:34

club's employment, the club would

have informed police immediately.

0:41:340:41:38

You will know Dario miaow three has

always said he did not know what

0:41:380:41:49

Harry Bedell was doing. The first

team he was 1994. What do you think?

0:41:490:41:56

I

0:41:560:42:05

think the -- now we are moving

forward, discussions need to be had.

0:42:070:42:12

Personally, I was in an office and

there was argument is between Mr

0:42:120:42:21

Gradi and Barry Bennell Abbott who

was going to stay at his house over

0:42:210:42:24

the weekend and the argument was

about me. And I could clearly hear

0:42:240:42:27

outside the argument about whether I

was staying at Mr Gradi house or

0:42:270:42:36

Barry Bennell's house.

But does not

mean Gradi knew anything.

0:42:360:42:42

Absolutely. But in terms of the club

and what was said around other

0:42:420:42:47

football clubs, it was like on the

programme last night, it was

0:42:470:42:52

discussed about Barry's bomb boys...

That was the insult around the

0:42:520:43:00

dressing room. -- bum.

0:43:000:43:11

Former MD of Crewe Hamilton Smith

who called a special board meeting

0:43:110:43:14

because of the rumours surrounding

Bennell's behaviour towards boys

0:43:140:43:16

watched the interview with the four

ex-players on this programme back

0:43:160:43:19

in November 2016, and he now wants

to pay tribute to them

0:43:190:43:22

but in particular Andy Woodward.

0:43:220:43:29

It really was a powerful programme,

and I just couldn't start to imagine

0:43:290:43:32

what this poor lad had gone through.

0:43:320:43:34

It was horrific.

0:43:340:43:35

It was horrific.

0:43:350:43:38

And I thought, here's a victim.

0:43:380:43:41

I've got a victim now.

0:43:410:43:45

And I said, well, I'm

going to support this lad

0:43:450:43:47

as much as I possibly can.

0:43:480:43:50

He released me in a way.

0:43:500:43:52

He was a victim.

0:43:520:43:56

He was a guy I waited to hear.

0:43:560:44:00

Andy Woodward not only helped

clear my conscience,

0:44:000:44:06

he helped all these other people,

all these other players.

0:44:060:44:11

I don't think Andy Woodward realises

what he actually did and how

0:44:110:44:15

many people he helped.

0:44:150:44:20

I don't think he -

that's, I don't think he's

0:44:200:44:23

got the scale on that.

0:44:230:44:24

That's what I think about it.

0:44:240:44:28

And these other players that came

out and appeared on television

0:44:280:44:32

and press and so on,

it's such a brave

0:44:320:44:34

thing to do, you know.

0:44:340:44:38

Really, these people now,

they were - when I go back and say

0:44:380:44:42

I had a choice to make,

sit back and don't do anything,

0:44:420:44:46

or come out and help,

they didn't have a choice.

0:44:460:44:48

They were abused.

0:44:480:44:50

They didn't have a choice.

0:44:500:44:58

Andy, how do you react to that?

Well, that such a powerful thing

0:44:580:45:05

what Hamilton has said about me, I'm

quite touched to say the least. I am

0:45:050:45:10

really proud of what I did. And it

was the most difficult situation the

0:45:100:45:17

most difficult decision to make. In

my entire life. And the last year or

0:45:170:45:25

so has been really tough, it's been

hard but I'm so pleased that I did

0:45:250:45:28

do this because now with, you know,

initially Steve and Chris being here

0:45:280:45:35

and Gary Wilson the background, this

has highlighted this now and

0:45:350:45:43

hopefully it will save so many

people's lives because we can't lose

0:45:430:45:48

anyone else, you know, what's more

important is that football in

0:45:480:45:52

general now, they are standing up

and they are accountable for what

0:45:520:45:55

happened in the past but importantly

we can move things forward and I am

0:45:550:46:00

so proud of what Hamilton said about

me and that is such a nice thing for

0:46:000:46:05

him to say.

A text message from Mrs

Smith, these four fantastic men

0:46:050:46:14

under the other poor victims of

Bennell are so brave and they fully

0:46:140:46:22

deserved financial compensation from

the FA. This text, this had me in

0:46:220:46:28

tears, when you hear others express

the abuse they suffered, seen grown

0:46:280:46:31

men cry makes me very sad and angry.

Again, such bravery. Michelle, all

0:46:310:46:37

power, solidarity and love going out

to the rape survivors of Bennell's

0:46:370:46:42

abuse, sad for those that did not

live to see justice prevail.

0:46:420:46:46

Another, mass respect to all of

these men, well done. The map. You

0:46:460:46:52

give hope to men everywhere to

report abuse. Richard says,

0:46:520:46:57

listening to past footballers abused

by Barry Bennell is heartbreaking

0:46:570:47:00

and astonishing. This evil, twisted

sexual abuse was free to abuse

0:47:000:47:05

hundreds of children for decades. So

brave, guys. I want to ask you why

0:47:050:47:10

you think he got away with it for so

long. What would you say, Gary?

Like

0:47:100:47:19

we said before, he got away with it

because he was so good at what he

0:47:190:47:22

did, in terms of football, his

ability and skills. Also, the

0:47:220:47:30

parents, it has been said many

times, he groomed the parents.

0:47:300:47:35

Everybody around him thought he was

wonderful. He came across as a

0:47:350:47:40

larger-than-life character, very

charismatic. He'd got the gear,

0:47:400:47:45

flash cards, who was generous, he

was never violent towards us. I now

0:47:450:47:54

know how far he went with each boy,

he tested each of them to see how

0:47:540:47:59

far he could get with them. You have

the whole degrees of abuse. A

0:47:590:48:05

perfect storm, almost, until we grew

into men and stood up to him, and

0:48:050:48:11

put him where he should be now.

If

any of this has brought up any

0:48:110:48:15

issues for you when it comes to

abuse, you can find a list of

0:48:150:48:18

helplines that will offer support

and advice.

0:48:180:48:22

As much as he abused children, he

was also an expert groomer of

0:48:300:48:34

adults. So many of the mothers and

fathers of the boys were taken in by

0:48:340:48:38

promises to make their son a top

player.

0:48:380:48:48

One couple were Olympic medallists

who got married. Their sons were no

0:48:480:48:52

less talented. They both ended up

playing professional football for

0:48:520:48:59

Manchester City and were trained by

Bennell in the early 80s, although

0:48:590:49:01

there was no suggestion they were

abused by him.

0:49:010:49:09

They never expected there was

anything sinister about him, they

0:49:090:49:14

invited him over for Christmas

dinner and when he was arrested they

0:49:140:49:17

wrote him a good character

reference. They had little idea of

0:49:170:49:19

what would follow. We spoke to them

about what they remembered about the

0:49:190:49:25

coach at the centre of the trial and

what they made of the subsequent

0:49:250:49:27

scandals.

0:49:270:49:28

He was a young, attractive,

charismatic coach.

0:49:280:49:32

He was a bit of a Pied Piper really,

the kids followed him.

0:49:320:49:37

He was brilliant with a football.

0:49:370:49:40

His skills were second to none -

kids lapped it up.

0:49:400:49:44

So my first impressions

were all good.

0:49:440:49:48

He's more, more of a leader of kids,

and an educator of kids in sport

0:49:480:49:52

than anyone I've come across.

0:49:520:49:57

You never had any reason at that

stage to be suspicious

0:49:570:50:00

about what he was like.

0:50:000:50:01

None whatsoever.

0:50:010:50:02

What we're talking about is

all a matter of trust.

0:50:020:50:05

And we had trust in the guy.

0:50:050:50:09

He appeared to have respect

from many quarters inside the game.

0:50:090:50:17

He was welll thought of, he appeared

to have excellent contacts.

0:50:170:50:23

He was just a very plausible guy.

0:50:240:50:27

Were you given the impression

that he was part of

0:50:280:50:30

the Manchester City set up,

part of the coaching staff there?

0:50:300:50:34

Well, yes, because David

in particular used to go

0:50:360:50:39

training at Platt Lane,

which is where the Manchester

0:50:390:50:41

City side at the time,

they all trained there.

0:50:410:50:46

So, yes, he was definitely part

of the Manchester City set up.

0:50:460:50:50

Can you give us a sense of Bennell's

relationship with the parents

0:50:500:50:53

in the team as well,

because he became quite close

0:50:530:50:55

to many of the parents

of the boys involved.

0:50:550:50:58

We felt slightly sorry for him

because he didn't seem

0:50:580:51:00

to have a family around him,

and I don't think he got paid

0:51:000:51:03

very much, if at all.

0:51:030:51:05

I wasn't even sure

if he got paid at all.

0:51:050:51:11

So, yes, we became friends with him,

really, I must admit,

0:51:110:51:13

and looking back, it was a disaster,

wasn't it, you know.

0:51:130:51:16

It's just disappointing.

0:51:160:51:23

Well, on one occasion we invited him

here for Christmas lunch.

0:51:290:51:33

Yes, we found out that he was on his

own at Christmas, and said, well,

0:51:330:51:37

come along and have Christmas Day

lunch with us.

0:51:370:51:42

He didn't come, but we'd have been

happy for him to come.

0:51:420:51:45

Definitely.

0:51:450:51:49

Is there anything now that you think

the warning signs were there?

0:51:490:51:58

Yes, in the fact that there

were young players that

0:51:580:52:01

were staying at his place,

overnight, and then maybe would go

0:52:010:52:04

to training the next day.

0:52:040:52:08

Now, these days, now, I think

we would be suspicious about that.

0:52:080:52:10

But we weren't.

0:52:100:52:11

And I don't think we were unusual.

0:52:110:52:21

I don't think that anybody

thought twice about it,

0:52:250:52:27

because he had ingratiated himself

with sports people, with the people

0:52:270:52:29

like Manchester City,

who he was linked with.

0:52:290:52:31

People like us, as parents,

and the young boys.

0:52:310:52:33

He would ingratiate himself

with the family in order

0:52:330:52:35

to give them confidence,

in order to get their trust.

0:52:350:52:38

End of story.

0:52:380:52:45

And he was an actor on his stage,

which he did very, very well.

0:52:450:52:50

He'd learned his lines very well.

0:52:500:52:55

And we were, in retrospect,

perhaps gullible, but as Anne said,

0:52:550:52:58

you know, you just don't think

about these things.

0:52:580:53:03

Robbie, when did you first

hear about allegations

0:53:030:53:05

of abuse against Bennell?

0:53:050:53:07

I had a letter from,

I think it must have

0:53:070:53:09

been his girlfriend,

or I had a letter from somebody

0:53:090:53:12

to say that he had been

charged with an offence,

0:53:120:53:14

and obviously there was no

foundation to the charge,

0:53:140:53:16

and he was innocent,

and would I like to write a little

0:53:160:53:19

testimonial for him?

0:53:190:53:29

And, to the best of

my knowledge, I did.

0:53:340:53:36

But when all this started

unravelling and it was clear

0:53:360:53:39

he was guilty of these offences,

what was your reaction?

0:53:390:53:41

We were totally shocked.

0:53:410:53:43

Extremely disappointed.

0:53:430:53:46

Very sad for the victims

and their families, because parents

0:53:460:53:49

can feel terrible guilt.

0:53:490:53:53

You know, if you've been conned

by someone, and your children have

0:53:530:53:56

suffered as a result,

naturally, you know,

0:53:560:53:58

you're going to feel

very unhappy about that.

0:53:580:54:04

I think the victims and the families

are the people who've

0:54:040:54:06

suffered dreadfully,

but after that sport, as we've said,

0:54:060:54:08

has been a major casualty.

0:54:080:54:15

It now appears that people in senior

positions at Manchester City

0:54:150:54:18

were at least aware of rumours

about the behaviour

0:54:180:54:20

of Barry Bennell.

0:54:200:54:25

Should they have done more to tell

the parents involved?

0:54:250:54:28

Should they have done more

to investigate these rumours?

0:54:280:54:30

If they were aware, then it's

unforgivable that they didn't

0:54:300:54:33

do something about it,

that they didn't expose it,

0:54:330:54:35

and even worse, that he went

on to another club to do exactly

0:54:350:54:38

the same thing.

0:54:380:54:45

If the allegations were serious

enough, I'm sure some action

0:54:470:54:50

should have been taken.

0:54:500:54:53

Well, I know some action

should have been taken,

0:54:540:54:57

otherwise we wouldn't be sitting

here talking about it.

0:54:570:55:00

Ann Packer and Robbie Brightwell

speaking exclusively to our reporter

0:55:050:55:08

Jim Reed about how Barry Bennell not

only groomed boys but

0:55:080:55:10

also their parents.

0:55:100:55:15

There's no suggestion

their sons - Ian and David -

0:55:150:55:18

were abused.

0:55:180:55:19

And Andy, Steve, Chris

and Gary - your parents

0:55:190:55:21

were groomed too weren't they?

0:55:210:55:27

Absolutely. Totally taken in by him.

As was every parent. No blame at all

0:55:270:55:33

attached to my mum and dad. My mum

gave evidence for me last week. She

0:55:330:55:39

went to court and stood in that

courtroom. She corroborated

0:55:390:55:46

everything that had been said. He

did.

He was such a manipulator. Your

0:55:460:55:53

parents invited him over for

Christmas dinner, he stayed at your

0:55:530:55:55

house? He stayed in your house?

Because I lived near to Crewe, my

0:55:550:56:04

mother ended up working in the shop

for him as well. She would say, come

0:56:040:56:12

and stay overnight, Barry. It was a

Monday night, and he ended up

0:56:120:56:17

staying in my room and he abused me

in my own home.

Steve, your mum was

0:56:170:56:23

also taken in by him?

Yes. I only

found out in the last few years that

0:56:230:56:31

my mum and dad, and my nan had

stayed in his house. I can't

0:56:310:56:41

remember that. My dad used to work

at the Football Club as well, there

0:56:410:56:45

was a slight overlap when they were

working together. It was just all

0:56:450:56:50

part of his tactics.

Andy, your

family, he manipulated members of

0:56:500:56:57

your family?

Yes, like Gary, his

magnitude of power over the parents

0:56:570:57:02

was huge. Myself, it was the same

pattern, coming to the house, having

0:57:020:57:08

Christmas dinner, having dinner most

times, really, coming round. You

0:57:080:57:16

know, he even had control in the

house, where he would take over the

0:57:160:57:19

control of the television, and put

on what he wanted. That is the power

0:57:190:57:23

he had. At no point did my parents

have any idea. Not only that, my

0:57:230:57:31

parents were really strict with me,

where they would not even let me go

0:57:310:57:34

100 metres out of the house. They

were that protective.

Your parents

0:57:340:57:43

trusted him because he had groomed

them so effectively. Your mum kiss

0:57:430:57:48

and dads would let you stay at his

house, because they were thinking he

0:57:480:57:53

is the coach, he's going to make

them a professional footballer. --

0:57:530:57:56

your mum and dad. Your parents

trusted him to take you to training

0:57:560:58:05

and back?

Absolutely, this guy knew

what he was doing. He rapped

0:58:050:58:08

everybody around his little finger.

Full

0:58:080:58:12

It was said in court that he was a

devious paedophile?

Was the power of

0:58:190:58:24

the manipulation this man had. He

ended up marrying my sister, and he

0:58:240:58:28

groomed my family and her. I am

protecting my sister, and I will

0:58:280:58:35

always do that. But that man groomed

my family to the point, and also my

0:58:350:58:42

sister. It is just unbelievable,

really.

Tracey has e-mailed, I am

0:58:420:58:53

watching your programme and followed

it from your first programme about

0:58:530:58:56

abuse in football. As a sibling of

two brothers who suffered sexual

0:58:560:59:01

abuse by a male teacher when they

were seven and nine years old, my

0:59:010:59:05

younger brother hung himself at 20,

and my other brother drank himself

0:59:050:59:10

to death at 33. Sexual abuse is such

a difficult ordeal to recover from.

0:59:100:59:15

My brothers never did. Thank you to

all of the brave men who came

0:59:150:59:27

forward to talk about abuse.

Terms

of my parents, I know that Steve

0:59:270:59:30

recently lost his mum. My dad passed

away in August. At least we have

0:59:300:59:34

been able to give our parents that

release. I know that my dad is up

0:59:340:59:40

there watching, I am sure Steve's

mum is as well, that we were able to

0:59:400:59:44

give them that release, that they

were not on their own. They were all

0:59:440:59:50

manipulated, like every parent has

been.

Is that right, Steve?

Yes, my

0:59:500:59:59

mum was diagnosed with lung cancer,

and passed away in June.

0:59:591:00:07

I just hope she is watching now and

can rest in peace now.

She would be

1:00:111:00:18

proud of you, mate.

She was my rock,

and when I lost her, it was hard.

My

1:00:181:00:30

dad was my best friend, they never

missed a game, my mum and dad. They

1:00:301:00:34

went all over the country. I know my

mum is watching now and is really

1:00:341:00:38

proud of me. She is finding it

really hard. But I am so proud of

1:00:381:00:43

them, and the way, the dignity that

they have dealt with all of this. I

1:00:431:00:47

am sure all parents have. You know,

it is hard for them will stop there

1:00:471:00:51

will be parents out there that will

be suffering from this right now.

1:00:511:00:54

But I will say something, no parent

in this country that has been

1:00:541:01:01

affected by Barry Bennell should

have any guilt or any shame. He

1:01:011:01:06

manipulated everybody.

1:01:061:01:13

He manipulated everybody.

This is

unforgivable behaviour from someone

1:01:131:01:21

who was given a position of trust

says one viewers. You aren't weakens

1:01:211:01:27

for others to come forward and stamp

out the abuse of young boys. Thank

1:01:271:01:31

you. An e-mail from someone who does

not leave their name, I respect your

1:01:311:01:37

guests for speaking out about

trauma, I wish I had been strong

1:01:371:01:41

enough to follow through, I

confronted my abuser. He died so I

1:01:411:01:46

never have made in Court,

unfortunately this is a dirty memory

1:01:461:01:49

that you have to live with forever,

a female and it can have a very

1:01:491:01:54

negative impact on your life

especially than others sweep it

1:01:541:01:57

under the carpet and another from

Oliver on Twitter, inspiring stuff

1:01:571:02:02

watching these guys talk about such

horrific abuse, no one should carry

1:02:021:02:06

that to the grave, serious questions

need to be asked of Crewe Alexandra

1:02:061:02:12

and Manchester City. We are going to

talk more to Andy and Chris and Gary

1:02:121:02:18

and Steve in the next hour.

1:02:181:02:22

Hello, it's Friday, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:02:221:02:25

Our top story today,

serious questions about how

1:02:251:02:27

paedophile football coach

Barry Bennell was allowed

1:02:271:02:28

to operate for so long

at two football clubs,

1:02:281:02:30

abusing dozens of boys,

seemingly undetected.

1:02:301:02:37

This morning four men abused by

Barry Bennell share their

1:02:371:02:43

experiences, they believe the scale

of abuse is far greater than what he

1:02:431:02:46

has been conveyed that of so far.

We

know and we knew a year ago how big

1:02:461:02:52

this was going to be and now it's

coming to light and like Gary said,

1:02:521:02:56

it's just the tip of the iceberg. We

know there's more and more out

1:02:561:03:01

there.

1:03:011:03:07

Another of Bennell's victims -

1:03:071:03:08

Gary Cliffe - told us earlier how

the former coach abused him

1:03:081:03:11

on the pitch at Manchester City's

former ground, Maine Road.

1:03:111:03:14

There was no one there, I can

remember, apart from the groundsman,

1:03:141:03:18

he had the run of the place, me and

one other boy, he spied an

1:03:181:03:21

opportunity we find the goal.

1:03:211:03:32

Crewe Alexandra's former managing

director has exclusively told this

1:03:321:03:35

programme that he warned the club

about Barry Bennell's behaviour

1:03:351:03:37

during the late 80s -

but the coach was allowed to stay

1:03:371:03:40

in his job.

1:03:401:03:43

With all the banter that was going

on, all that was happening, the

1:03:431:03:47

board meeting we had, the special

board meeting, and they still say

1:03:471:03:50

they didn't know what was going on.

1:03:501:03:52

Also this morning -

we can reveal that new allegations

1:03:521:03:54

have been made that Bennell abused

boys whilst working at a care home

1:03:541:04:03

In Derbyshire

1:04:031:04:04

In Derbyshire

1:04:041:04:10

there was talk about him taking

1:04:101:04:12

to his flat...

What lessons can be

learned from this episode and what

1:04:131:04:19

can parents do to keep their

children safe?

We will look at the

1:04:191:04:23

options organisations can take to

mandatory reporting.

1:04:231:04:28

Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of todays news.

1:04:311:04:37

Thank you and good morning.

1:04:371:04:39

The Football Association

is to review thousands of files

1:04:391:04:41

to find out how much was known

about the abuse carried out

1:04:411:04:44

by former youth coach Barry Bennell,

as part of its internal review.

1:04:441:04:47

Yesterday he was found guilty

of another seven counts

1:04:471:04:50

of sexually abusing boys -

meaning he's now been convicted

1:04:501:04:52

of a total of 43 offences

between 1979 and 1990.

1:04:521:05:01

Speaking on this programme,

one of his victims, Gary Cliffe,

1:05:011:05:04

urged others to come forward.

1:05:041:05:08

In terms of lives that have come

forward I know there is many, many

1:05:081:05:11

more lads out there and I'm hoping

they can find strength, they don't

1:05:111:05:17

have to go to the police, just to

confide in family, friends, the

1:05:171:05:22

cause they cannot carry that burden.

Barry then all will be sentenced on

1:05:221:05:33

Monday and one of his victims says

he will be there to watch.

This man

1:05:331:05:37

up to his last seconds has shown no

remorse, I want the opportunity to

1:05:371:05:42

look him in the eye and show him, I

am more than you now, you have not

1:05:421:05:49

got that power over me, I am

carrying on, I am surviving. I am

1:05:491:05:53

moving on. He hasn't beaten us, he

hasn't beaten me, he hasn't beaten

1:05:531:05:58

us, we are still here. We are going

to start a new chapter in our lives

1:05:581:06:03

now.

He's ruined our childhood

basically, our dreams, but he will

1:06:031:06:08

not ruin our lives.

1:06:081:06:11

And in a few minutes time,

we'll be speaking to the partners

1:06:111:06:14

and families of those targeted

by Barry Bennell.

1:06:141:06:20

In other news...

1:06:201:06:21

Oxfam says it will set up

a commission to investigate past

1:06:211:06:24

and present allegations

of exploitation by its staff

1:06:241:06:26

in a bid to rebuild trust.

1:06:261:06:27

Anyone who's been abused

by the Charity's employees has been

1:06:271:06:30

urged by the international head

of the Oxfam to tell their story.

1:06:301:06:33

Winnie Byanyima said every

complaint would be examined

1:06:331:06:35

by an independent commission,

and wrong-doers would

1:06:351:06:37

be held to account.

1:06:371:06:38

Police in Florida say the teenager

accused of killing 17 people

1:06:391:06:42

at a high school on Wednesday has

confessed to the shooting.

1:06:421:06:45

19-year-old Nikolas Cruz has

appeared in court charged with 17

1:06:451:06:47

counts of premeditated murder.

1:06:471:06:50

It's emerged the FBI had been

alerted to potential warning signs

1:06:501:06:52

of the former student's intentions

in the past.

1:06:521:06:56

New figures show a dramatic

reduction in the number of young

1:06:591:07:02

people buying their own

homes across the UK,

1:07:021:07:04

over the last 20 years.

1:07:041:07:06

The Institute for Fiscal Studies

found only a quarter

1:07:061:07:08

of those aged 25 to 34,

on average incomes,

1:07:081:07:11

were able to buy a property,

compared to 2 out of 3 in 1998.

1:07:111:07:17

A BBC investigation has revealed

a significant difference

1:07:191:07:21

between the highest earning male

and female consultants working

1:07:211:07:23

for the NHS in England.

1:07:231:07:25

Figures show that one in five

of the top 100 earners are women,

1:07:251:07:28

while on average full time men

earned £14,000 a year more

1:07:281:07:31

than their female counterparts

when including

1:07:311:07:32

bonuses and overtime.

1:07:321:07:37

Of the top 100 earning consultants

five are women despite more than a

1:07:371:07:40

third of the workforce being female.

1:07:411:07:42

The Department of Health

says it is committed

1:07:421:07:43

The Hollywood actress

Jennifer Aniston has announced

1:07:521:07:54

she is to separate from her husband

Justin Theroux after

1:07:541:07:56

two years of marriage.

1:07:561:07:57

The pair, who were married

in a secret ceremony

1:07:571:08:00

in Los Angeles in 2015,

reportedly met on the set

1:08:001:08:02

of comedy film Wanderlust.

1:08:021:08:03

They gave no reason for the split

but said it was a mutual decision

1:08:031:08:06

which had been "lovingly made"

at the end of last year.

1:08:061:08:09

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30.

1:08:091:08:16

Thank you, we are going to hear more

from our guests in the next hour and

1:08:161:08:20

we will talk to the detect if

inspect who led the investigation

1:08:201:08:25

into Harry Bedell, her name is Sarah

Oliver and we will hear from her

1:08:251:08:28

shortly stop thank you for your

many, many, many messages for these

1:08:281:08:34

guys, we will read more.

1:08:341:08:35

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

1:08:351:08:38

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and If you text, you will be charged

1:08:381:08:41

at the standard network rate.

1:08:411:08:42

Here's some sport now with Hugh.

1:08:421:08:46

Hello and good morning, Britain has

its first medal of the Olympics, a

1:08:461:08:51

bronze medal, thanks to Dominic

Parsons, in the skeleton, fourth

1:08:511:08:56

overnight, moved on to third after a

strong run, solid final outing would

1:08:561:09:00

have secured a bronze, he faltered

slightly, it was enough to make it

1:09:001:09:04

looked like he was going to finish

outside the medals. Those above him

1:09:041:09:07

were delighted, he thought his

chance had gone.

1:09:071:09:17

Because the five time world champion

Martins Dukurs from Latvia also made

1:09:171:09:20

a mistake on his final run -a huge

surprise - leaving Dom Parsons

1:09:201:09:23

to pick up a bronze and claim

Britain's first medal in Pyeongchang

1:09:231:09:26

and the first in men's

skeleton in 70 years.

1:09:261:09:35

Alex McLeish has agreed to become

Scotland manager for the second time

1:09:351:09:38

on a deal until 2020.

1:09:381:09:39

It's 11 years since he left the job

and the former Rangers

1:09:391:09:42

and Birmingham boss replaces Gordon

Strachan.

1:09:421:09:44

The Scottish FA have turned

to McLeish after failing to recruit

1:09:441:09:46

Northern Ireland manager Michael

O'Neill.

1:09:461:09:48

England bowler Liam Plunkett has

been ruled out of the rest

1:09:481:09:50

of their limited overs tour

of New Zealand with

1:09:501:09:52

a hamstring injury.

1:09:521:09:53

Plunkett aggravated a tear

that he suffered in the one day

1:09:531:09:56

series against Australia last month

when he returned to the side

1:09:561:09:59

for the T20 tri series match

against New Zealand on Tuesday.

1:09:591:10:01

England could still have a final

to play in the T20 tri-series

1:10:011:10:04

after Australia completed a record

run chase to beat New Zealand by 5

1:10:041:10:07

wickets in Auckland,

reaching their target of 244

1:10:071:10:09

with seven balls to spare.

1:10:091:10:10

If England win against

the Black Caps on Sunday

1:10:101:10:13

they could go through.

1:10:131:10:16

Leeds Rhinos are in Australia

playing Melbourne Storm

1:10:201:10:22

in the World Club Challenge.

1:10:221:10:24

Leeds qualified for the match after

winning the Super League Grand Final

1:10:241:10:27

whilst Melbourne won

the Australian NRL.

1:10:271:10:29

Rhinos can equal Wigan's four

World Club Challenge victories

1:10:291:10:31

with a win but they trail

by 18-4 at half-time.

1:10:311:10:36

That is all your support for now. --

your sport for now.

1:10:431:10:49

This morning: serious questions

about how paedophile football coach

1:10:491:10:51

Barry Bennell was allowed to operate

for so long at 2 football clubs,

1:10:511:10:54

abusing dozens of boys

seemingly undetected.

1:10:541:10:56

This programme has heard from senior

figures at both Man City

1:10:561:10:58

and Crewe Alexandra who say concerns

about his behaviour

1:10:581:11:01

was known at the time.

1:11:011:11:03

Our reporter Jim Reed and producer

Louis Lee Ray have been looking

1:11:031:11:05

into this over the last 15 months...

1:11:051:11:07

To his players and their parents

he was the star maker,

1:11:131:11:16

a talented coach, who could make

or break dreams of

1:11:161:11:18

playing professional.

1:11:181:11:22

Very much a Pied Piper that the one

that could open the door to this

1:11:221:11:26

magical world of football.

1:11:261:11:28

But it was all a front.

1:11:281:11:31

A pretext to abuse dozens

of children, hundreds of times

1:11:311:11:34

across two continents.

1:11:341:11:36

Eventually, he was a bully,

he was a power freak.

1:11:361:11:39

Barry Bennell had strong

links to two teams.

1:11:391:11:43

Manchester City and Crewe Alexandra.

1:11:431:11:47

There are now difficult questions

for the clubs involved,

1:11:511:11:53

were they warned and should more

have been done to

1:11:531:11:55

protect young players.

1:11:551:11:57

I mean inside, I was crying out

for somebody at that club

1:11:571:12:00

to say it's wrong, this.

1:12:001:12:04

Manchester, a place where

the industrial and domestic

1:12:071:12:10

landscape can never conceal

a romance with football,

1:12:101:12:13

that makes it the home of two

of the best supported

1:12:131:12:15

teams in Britain.

1:12:151:12:17

Greater Manchester, in the late 70s.

1:12:171:12:20

Barry Bennell ran youth teams

in the area with names

1:12:201:12:23

like Whitehill and Pegasus.

1:12:231:12:26

He was this Pied Piper character,

what young boy who aspired to be

1:12:261:12:29

a professional footballer wouldn't

look up to that character,

1:12:291:12:32

and respond to what they said

was necessary in order

1:12:321:12:34

to make that grade?

1:12:341:12:37

The youngsters are an investment

for the future and the competition

1:12:411:12:44

for the really talented is intense.

1:12:441:12:46

This was the era before

youth development

1:12:461:12:48

programmes, and academies.

1:12:481:12:51

Clubs like Manchester City

still recruited young players

1:12:511:12:53

from local feeder teams run

by amateur coaches.

1:12:531:12:55

Barry Bennell was seen

as one of the best.

1:12:551:13:00

He was one of the guys that

provided them with some

1:13:031:13:06

of their prestige premier players,

it was absolutely no

1:13:061:13:08

doubt that he was a part

of their system and set up,

1:13:081:13:11

whether he was paid financially

in a wage or by any other means.

1:13:111:13:14

This programme has now learned

of 11 players linked

1:13:191:13:21

to Manchester City who now say

they were abused by Bennell.

1:13:211:13:25

One victim has told us

abuse took place here,

1:13:251:13:27

at Maine Road itself.

1:13:271:13:31

In the late 70s, Platt Lane

was Manchester City's

1:13:361:13:38

main training ground.

1:13:381:13:40

It's now owned by a university.

1:13:401:13:47

Bennell was never an official

member of staff here,

1:13:471:13:49

but his teams played on these

pitches in club kit.

1:13:491:13:52

He carried a pass, and drove

a car in club colours.

1:13:521:13:55

No-one would ever doubt him

because these big professional

1:13:551:13:57

organisations like Manchester City

gave him the opportunity

1:13:571:13:59

to effectively have free

run of the premises,

1:13:591:14:01

and that's what convinced

everybody he was genuine.

1:14:011:14:07

But not everyone at

the club was convinced.

1:14:101:14:14

We have approximately 12

schoolboys each year.

1:14:141:14:16

Steve Fleet was in charge

of the Man City youth

1:14:161:14:18

team in the late 70s.

1:14:181:14:22

He didn't want to appear on camera,

but told us he came under pressure

1:14:221:14:25

from senior officials to hire

Bennell and give him

1:14:251:14:27

an official role at the club.

1:14:281:14:31

I put my foot down, I wasn't working

with a person like that.

1:14:311:14:34

That time Fleet told us

he won the argument.

1:14:391:14:41

It was after he left in 1980

that it appeared Bennell

1:14:411:14:44

became more involved.

1:14:441:14:48

I knew it was wrong,

but I just didn't have the stomach

1:14:481:14:51

or the words to put my hand up

and say anything.

1:14:511:14:55

Gary Cliff signed as a schoolboy

for Manchester City after playing

1:14:581:15:01

for one of Barry Bennell's teams.

1:15:011:15:04

He spoke exclusively

to this programme.

1:15:041:15:07

I didn't say anything,

no parents were saying anything.

1:15:071:15:09

No officials at the club

were saying anything.

1:15:091:15:12

Just didn't have the words.

1:15:121:15:15

From the age of 11-15 he told us

he was abused hundreds of times.

1:15:151:15:21

At Bennell's house in a village

in the Peak District, in his car,

1:15:211:15:24

and at the stadium at Maine Road.

1:15:241:15:27

Do you think the bosses

at Manchester City knew

1:15:271:15:29

what Bennell was doing?

1:15:301:15:31

Yes, absolutely,

they knew what he was.

1:15:311:15:35

And they allowed it

to continue, because he was

1:15:351:15:37

producing the results.

1:15:371:15:39

In a statement, Manchester City

offered its sympathy to those

1:15:421:15:45

affected, saying all victims

were entitled to expect full

1:15:451:15:47

protection from the kind

of harm they endured.

1:15:471:15:51

It has now started its own review

into its links with Barry Bennell.

1:15:531:15:56

A lot of the boys talked

about him abusing other

1:16:041:16:06

boys while at the home,

and getting involved with them,

1:16:061:16:12

and taking them to his

flat, things like that.

1:16:121:16:14

This programme can now reveal

another link between Bennell

1:16:151:16:17

and children at this time.

1:16:171:16:22

Taxal Edge in Derbyshire,

now converted into flats,

1:16:221:16:25

was once a residential

home for boys.

1:16:251:16:28

In the early 80s Barry Bennell

was employed here as a care worker.

1:16:301:16:32

Did he used to stay overnight?

1:16:331:16:35

He did.

1:16:351:16:36

Yeah.

1:16:361:16:42

At the home there's a sleep over

room next to the dormitory,

1:16:421:16:45

when he was on night duty

he was on his own staying

1:16:451:16:49

in the sleep over room.

1:16:491:16:49

We've now spoken to a different man,

one of Bennell's victims

1:16:491:16:52

who is convinced he was abused

in a flat on these grounds.

1:16:521:16:54

Police say they are not formally

investigating any new allegations

1:16:561:16:58

about Bennell and this care home

but this former resident says he's

1:16:581:17:02

aware of at least three others

who say they were abused

1:17:021:17:04

by the coach.

1:17:041:17:09

So you're pretty convinced

that he was responsible

1:17:091:17:10

for abuse at that home?

1:17:101:17:12

He was responsible for abuse

at Taxal edge children's home, yes.

1:17:121:17:16

As for football, Barry Bennell's

time with Manchester City

1:17:211:17:23

ended abruptly in 1984.

1:17:231:17:27

Why isn't clear, but it's thought

he wanted a full-time coaching

1:17:271:17:30

position, and was turned down.

1:17:301:17:34

With his options limited

he switched from one club

1:17:361:17:38

in the north-west to another.

1:17:381:17:41

The keeper, springing

like a panther, denied the shot.

1:17:431:17:45

The final score, 1-0...

1:17:451:17:49

In 1983, Crewe Alexandra

were struggling in the

1:17:491:17:50

old fourth division.

1:17:501:17:53

The club's promising young manager,

Dario Gradi, had a plan,

1:17:541:17:57

to train teenagers and sell them

on to the top sides.

1:17:571:18:00

We get good kids, and

we compete for them.

1:18:031:18:05

And then we make them

into good players.

1:18:051:18:07

It's a long process.

1:18:071:18:08

But it's still easier for us.

1:18:081:18:11

So, Bennell was brought in,

finally on the club's payroll,

1:18:131:18:16

responsible for youth

development and scouting.

1:18:161:18:20

They are learning all the time.

1:18:201:18:22

We do a lot of talking to them,

as well as showing them the skills,

1:18:221:18:25

and explain in a game to them.

1:18:261:18:27

Over the next decade, Crewe became

known as the football factory,

1:18:311:18:34

consistently producing young players

who went to the very top.

1:18:341:18:36

Its academy was one of the most

respected in the game.

1:18:361:18:40

There is more to it than just coming

here one hour a week.

1:18:401:18:43

You need to...

1:18:431:18:44

Well, we give them homework.

1:18:441:18:49

Again, though, there are rumours

about Barry Bennell's dark side.

1:18:491:18:54

One parent said he confronted

the coach about inappropriate

1:18:541:18:56

behaviour with children.

1:18:561:18:58

Another told us she raised

the alarm about boys sleeping

1:18:581:19:01

in his bed on away trips.

1:19:011:19:05

The strongest warning, though,

is said to have come

1:19:051:19:07

from inside the club itself.

1:19:071:19:10

We're talking about 28 years ago,

and it's not right.

1:19:101:19:17

Former Crewe director

Hamilton Smith told us in the late

1:19:171:19:19

80s he played a second-hand

allegation of abuse from a parent.

1:19:191:19:22

So, this man, Crewe chairman

Norman Robinson, was contacted

1:19:221:19:24

and a board meeting set

for the next day.

1:19:241:19:34

-- Norman Rowlinson

1:19:371:19:38

And so there took place a discussion

with the other directors.

1:19:381:19:41

I started to give Norman some idea

of things that I had heard,

1:19:411:19:44

and in particular the comment

that was made the night before.

1:19:441:19:47

And they said, why don't

you tell me, is he going around

1:19:471:19:49

playing with kids' bits and pieces?

1:19:501:19:51

And he said, well, how

does he get these kids?

1:19:511:19:54

I said, he is like the Pied Piper.

1:19:541:19:56

The board were aware of concerns

about Barry Bennell?

1:19:561:19:58

Oh, yes.

1:19:581:19:59

As it went on, of course,

there was so much banter

1:19:591:20:02

around the dressing rooms,

around the Football Club about it,

1:20:021:20:08

odd remarks getting made

here and there, if somebody...

1:20:081:20:11

If you didn't know about it,

God knows where you were,

1:20:111:20:13

you were not at Crewe.

1:20:131:20:17

But no parents had complained

to the club, so Hamilton Smith said

1:20:171:20:20

only more general concerns

about boys sleeping

1:20:201:20:21

in Bennell's house were raised

with Crewe's manager.

1:20:211:20:25

Dario Gradi, though,

made it clear he had no problem

1:20:251:20:28

with the coach and Bennell

kept his job.

1:20:281:20:32

Crewe Alexandra as a club say

that they didn't know anything

1:20:321:20:35

about Bennell's behaviour.

1:20:351:20:37

How does that make you feel?

1:20:371:20:40

Furious, absolutely furious.

1:20:401:20:43

I find it difficult to believe that,

with all the banter that was going

1:20:431:20:48

on, all that was happening,

the meeting that we had, the special

1:20:481:20:51

board meeting that we had,

and they are still saying

1:20:511:20:53

they didn't know

something was going on.

1:20:531:21:00

Everybody involved could have done,

and should have done, a lot more.

1:21:001:21:05

Cheshire Police say their

investigation could find no evidence

1:21:061:21:10

for conspiracy to cover up

allegations of abuse.

1:21:101:21:17

Senior officials at Crewe Alexandra

have always denied knowing anything

1:21:171:21:19

about Bennell's actions.

1:21:191:21:24

Today's chairman, John Bowler,

was on the board through the 1980s.

1:21:241:21:30

Again, were you aware at any

point of what was doing?

1:21:301:21:32

No.

1:21:331:21:34

How do you feel about the fact

was doing those things?

1:21:341:21:36

When you were chairman of the club?

1:21:361:21:38

Infuriated.

1:21:381:21:41

I have made my statement,

I have nothing more to add.

1:21:411:21:43

In 1997, then manager Dario Gradi

said he had no cause for concern

1:21:431:21:46

when Bennell was there.

1:21:461:21:49

In 2016, he said the first anyone

at Crewe knew of any crimes

1:21:501:21:53

was when he was finally arrested

in the mid-90s.

1:21:531:21:56

But we now know beyond any

doubt that children were

1:22:071:22:10

abused at this club.

1:22:101:22:14

In the changing rooms,

on the training pitch,

1:22:141:22:16

the home of the manager himself

when he was away.

1:22:161:22:21

I mean, inside I was crying out

for somebody of that club,

1:22:211:22:24

at Crewe Alexandra, to say,

it's wrong, this.

1:22:241:22:28

It didn't happen, so...

1:22:301:22:32

Took this man, former Crewe player

Andy Woodward to come forward,

1:22:321:22:35

for the truth to come out.

1:22:351:22:39

He spoke to the Guardian newspaper

and to this programme.

1:22:391:22:42

That is why now I want

others to come forward.

1:22:421:22:44

Because it's not right.

1:22:441:22:47

Good morning, we are talking

to Chris Unsworth, Jason Dunford

1:22:491:22:52

and to Steve Walters...

1:22:521:22:53

Others did come forward.

1:22:531:22:56

A week later, he was back

in the same studio,

1:22:561:22:57

with three more players.

1:22:571:22:59

Everything we have been through has

been brushed under the carpet.

1:23:011:23:05

This is why we are here today.

1:23:051:23:08

My career has been ruined,

my relationship has been ruined.

1:23:081:23:11

I just had to get it out there,

because this can never,

1:23:151:23:18

ever happen to any more children.

1:23:181:23:21

In his latest trial,

the jury heard about the impact

1:23:241:23:27

of what Barry Bennell has done.

1:23:271:23:30

Four men he trained have

taken their own lives,

1:23:311:23:34

including former Wales manager

Gary Speed, although there

1:23:341:23:37

is no evidence they were

abused by the coach.

1:23:371:23:41

Others have been left damaged

by what happened to them.

1:23:411:23:44

They were all children,

young boys who just had

1:23:441:23:46

the misfortune of playing football

for a man who, for three decades,

1:23:461:23:49

went almost unchallenged.

1:23:491:23:53

Jim, any more from

the clubs involved?

1:24:001:24:02

Yes, Manchester City,

as you heard in that film,

1:24:021:24:10

They have launched a review and into

their safeguarding policy, the

1:24:101:24:16

waiting for the results of that.

Crewe have repeated that they were

1:24:161:24:19

not aware as a club of abuse by

Barry Bennell. They have point out

1:24:191:24:28

the police have looked into this and

could not find any evidence that the

1:24:281:24:32

club was aware of any wrongdoing or

abuse by Barry Bennell. If they had

1:24:321:24:37

suspicions or anybody at the club

had suspicions, they say they would

1:24:371:24:40

have informed the police

immediately.

1:24:401:24:46

I wanted to ask you about

compensation. Are you going to

1:24:461:24:49

pursue compensation from Crewe

Alexandra or Manchester City, or

1:24:491:24:53

both?

From my point of view, I said

it in court, I have instructed a

1:24:531:25:04

specialist sexual abuse lawyer to

investigate Manchester City. I have

1:25:041:25:06

no control over that. And there is

nothing wrong with doing that, it is

1:25:061:25:11

a civil case. Nobody should be

ashamed of that. He ruined my life.

1:25:111:25:16

If there is any compensation or

damages there, of course I am going

1:25:161:25:19

to take it. That remains to be seen.

It is ongoing.

I am the same. People

1:25:191:25:31

have asked me, you know, I do want

an apology, to start off with.

From

1:25:311:25:40

Bennell?

From the clubs he was

involved with. He has ruined my

1:25:401:25:45

life. Should I get something for it?

I think I should.

In respect to

1:25:451:25:51

myself, I can't make any claim

against Crewe, because I previously

1:25:511:25:55

did do that. That is why...

That was

not successful?

Yes, I was on my own

1:25:551:26:02

back then. In terms of me speaking

out, I knew in November that I

1:26:021:26:07

couldn't make any claim of

compensation against Crewe

1:26:071:26:09

Alexandra. But I do believe, like

Gary says, the torment that all of

1:26:091:26:14

us have been through as children, it

has ruined our lives. It has

1:26:141:26:21

affected everybody.

I have an e-mail

here from somebody that wishes to

1:26:211:26:25

remain anonymous. It begins, I am a

mother of an ex-premiership

1:26:251:26:33

footballer. I have asked my son

about possible abuse, and he has

1:26:331:26:37

assured me that nothing has happened

to him, thank God. My point is, as

1:26:371:26:41

parents of young kids, clubs in

general, my experience, not only do

1:26:411:26:46

not monitor the care of their kids

and their welfare, but they also do

1:26:461:26:50

not involve parents, or inform them

adequately. I always felt shut down

1:26:501:26:55

when I asked questions. Once, I

remember ringing one of the train is

1:26:551:26:59

concerned about the young player's

bus coach time to arrive at the

1:26:591:27:05

ground, and the delay in returning

from a trip. I was told, don't be

1:27:051:27:10

neurotic. I should be given more

information as a concerned parent of

1:27:101:27:14

a young footballer. What happened to

these footballers could easily have

1:27:141:27:18

happened to my son. My total

sympathies to them. My sympathies

1:27:181:27:23

also to their parents, who were kept

in the dark am excluded from any

1:27:231:27:26

important decisions concerning the

well-being of their sons.

1:27:261:27:33

Congratulations on your excellent

journalism on this matter. If you

1:27:331:27:36

want to send an e-mail, please do.

1:27:361:27:39

As we have heard really clearly on

the programme, the abuse has a

1:27:461:27:51

devastating impact on the lives of

these men, and also on their

1:27:511:27:56

families and partners.

1:27:561:27:57

Gary Cliffe has been with his wife

Emma for over 23 years -

1:27:571:28:00

and he told her about the abuse

he suffered at the hands

1:28:001:28:03

of his former coach after about

a year of being together.

1:28:031:28:07

The couple have now been married 20

years and Emma joins

1:28:071:28:10

us in the studio now.

1:28:101:28:12

Good morning. I know you really had

to think hard about wanting to talk

1:28:121:28:19

about this, from your point of view.

But he thought it was important,

1:28:191:28:24

why?

I think it is important to tell

the story of the wives, girlfriends,

1:28:241:28:32

the mothers and fathers, the

families. They play such a big part

1:28:321:28:37

in supporting these guys. As you

said, I have known for over 20

1:28:371:28:43

years. Gary told me about 23 years

ago. But at that age, at that time,

1:28:431:28:54

I did not understand the full

impact. It has been quite a long

1:28:541:29:02

haul. We have had a lot of ups and

downs, Gary has been in for

1:29:021:29:07

treatment, had counselling and lots

of support, medically, as well as

1:29:071:29:11

through family and friends. I would

say the last couple of years have

1:29:111:29:17

been really tough, with all of the

court cases and everything.

What

1:29:171:29:21

about the impact on you? You have

been there constantly over the last

1:29:211:29:25

two decades, supporting your

husband. Knowing what he had

1:29:251:29:28

experienced as a young boy.

Yes, it

has had quite an impact. He has had

1:29:281:29:37

some real dark moments. You know, it

has been quite scary for me and for

1:29:371:29:47

his family as well. He kept it a

secret from the wider family and

1:29:471:29:54

from our friends. He has only told

them in the last 18 months, I think.

1:29:541:30:02

He was terrified of anybody finding

out. That was my secret to keep as

1:30:021:30:07

well, that was quite tough.

What

kind of a burden is it to keep that

1:30:071:30:13

secret?

1:30:131:30:20

It's really hard because I want to

do what's right for him. And it was

1:30:201:30:29

him that wanted to keep it a secret

so you do everything in your power

1:30:291:30:34

for that not to happen because I

thought that was the best thing for

1:30:341:30:37

him and at the time I think it was.

We had many celebrations, family

1:30:371:30:44

dos, birthdays, events for I went on

my own because Gary couldn't face

1:30:441:30:49

going. And it was always the excuse,

he's working because he just

1:30:491:30:56

couldn't sometimes go out the door

to go to those events and didn't

1:30:561:31:00

want to be sociable to people and

many a time I was on my own. But I

1:31:001:31:08

felt that was the right thing to do

at the time.

And just looking at

1:31:081:31:14

Gary now, do you want to come over

and then be can hear you? What a

1:31:141:31:25

woman!

What a woman. She's been

through hell.

You think she's been

1:31:251:31:30

through hell as well?

God, yes, she

spent propping me up for 23 years

1:31:301:31:39

and she's had her own health scare

in 2008, she's been immense.

I've

1:31:391:31:46

spoken to you both about this

before, the fact you don't have

1:31:461:31:49

children, I think there are medical

reasons, you considered adoption.

1:31:491:31:53

You didn't go ahead with that. Is

that, this is what happened to you

1:31:531:32:00

as a boy partly relevant to why you

didn't pursue adoption?

I've never

1:32:001:32:06

had that urge for children like most

men have, never had that urge

1:32:061:32:10

because of what happened to me,

totally rational thoughts, totally

1:32:101:32:14

stupid I know. -- totally

irrational.

OK. Thank you stop thank

1:32:141:32:26

you,, thank you so much for being so

honest. Gary, thank you. Let's pause

1:32:261:32:31

for a moment and I would be this

message from June the text it to

1:32:311:32:36

say, I just want to say well done to

these men, you're extremely brave

1:32:361:32:40

and as a nation we thank you for

bringing light to this, anyone who

1:32:401:32:45

has a child will realise how

disgusting, cruel and manipulative

1:32:451:32:48

Harry Ben Allen's behaviour was. --

Barry Bennell's behaviour was. Lee

1:32:481:32:58

soldier head up high, you should not

feel ashamed, and your families

1:32:581:33:01

should not either. -- hold your head

up high.

1:33:011:33:12

As you would expect

with a paedophile as prolific

1:33:121:33:14

as Barry Bennell, the police

investigation into

1:33:141:33:15

what he did was huge.

1:33:151:33:17

Over the last 12 months the police

have spoken to over 2,000 people,

1:33:171:33:20

taken over 500 statements

and interviewed Bennell 30 times.

1:33:201:33:22

We can speak now to the officer

who ran the team: Detective

1:33:221:33:25

Inspector Sarah Oliver -

of Cheshire Police.

1:33:251:33:28

What's your reaction? A mixture of

relief, relief and joy that justice

1:33:281:33:32

has been done. Release that verdict

has come back in as guilty, those

1:33:321:33:38

guys have been listened to, the

lead, and the jury have reflected

1:33:381:33:41

that.

You were in Court, you heard

the men give evidence, you've heard

1:33:411:33:46

some of them again this morning, how

do you react about the way they have

1:33:461:33:51

spoken and what he endured?

I would

reflect the comments of your callers

1:33:511:33:59

and viewers this morning, the

dignity has been incredible, I have

1:33:591:34:02

no doubt it was incredibly difficult

them to go through the process, six

1:34:021:34:08

weeks after 30 years, they've waited

such a long time.

We are going to

1:34:081:34:13

play for the audience a clip from

one of the police interviews

1:34:131:34:16

conducted with Barry Bennell, let's

just listen.

1:34:161:34:19

He's acknowledging the grooming

process. Absolutely, he knows

1:34:581:35:02

exactly what to say and he knew what

he was doing. Incredibly

1:35:021:35:05

manipulative individual.

What was he

like to interview?

As I say, he knew

1:35:051:35:14

what to say, the right things, but

never created the impression it was

1:35:141:35:19

heartfelt, never shown any rewards,

his eagle came through and there

1:35:191:35:22

were times he let slip that he'd go

with comments, setting the record

1:35:221:35:28

straight around his hair being

naturally curly not permed, that

1:35:281:35:32

level of pride. Narcissism.

Absolutely Ulster do you think he

1:35:321:35:38

has any idea of the lives he has

ruined?

-- absolutely. Do you think

1:35:381:35:46

he has any idea of the lives he has

ruined?

Whether he can empathise is

1:35:461:35:54

another matter, I don't think he has

the capacity.

Let's talk about how

1:35:541:36:00

challenging this case was put you

and your officers, some of these

1:36:001:36:04

crimes happened 30-35 years ago,

there are no forensics,

1:36:041:36:08

house-to-house enquiries, can you

give the audience an insight into

1:36:081:36:13

how you investigate crimes of this

nature?

It's a huge undertaking when

1:36:131:36:17

you get crimes of this nature,

especially mass reporting as we saw

1:36:171:36:23

here. The key thing is to get in

touch with the guys making the

1:36:231:36:29

complaints and reassure them, set

about getting their accounts in

1:36:291:36:32

detail so we can go through that

line by line and corroborate every

1:36:321:36:36

detail that we can because you quite

rightly say, many modern

1:36:361:36:40

investigative techniques are not

there, medical, forensics, telecom,

1:36:401:36:47

it's a question of corroborating as

much as we can and going through as

1:36:471:36:51

much detail as we can.

We know

including the 12 complainants that

1:36:511:36:55

went through this trial there are 96

alleged big tins of Barry Bennell in

1:36:551:37:02

total, there are a further 86

alleged victims. Does this mean this

1:37:021:37:09

investigation is ongoing? -- alleged

victims.

The inquiry is very much

1:37:091:37:14

ongoing. The verdict of this tool

does not mean we are finished.

What

1:37:141:37:20

would you say to someone watching

now who is considering whether to

1:37:201:37:23

make a complaint to the police about

what they experienced as a child?

I

1:37:231:37:27

would say if you have been the

victim of sexual abuse no matter how

1:37:271:37:32

long ago, reported via 101, we will

listen and support you and hopefully

1:37:321:37:38

you too can get your justice.

What

you say to those who say police

1:37:381:37:44

should concentrate on current

victims of child sexual abuse, not

1:37:441:37:49

investigating things that were

alleged to have happened three

1:37:491:37:52

decades ago.

It is a real challenge,

I don't dispute that, we have

1:37:521:37:58

conflicting demands placed on our

teams but what I would say, first

1:37:581:38:00

and foremost, we have to establish

if these guys were operating alone,

1:38:001:38:05

there might be people out there

still working and connect it to

1:38:051:38:10

children that happened been reported

and we need to identify those and

1:38:101:38:13

also, for these guys, you heard them

say, it's not over for them, it

1:38:131:38:20

still very, very current, the

impact, distress and trauma and it's

1:38:201:38:23

only right issue get their day in

court.

I want to read you the latest

1:38:231:38:28

figures which go up to the end of

2017 regarding allegations of

1:38:281:38:34

historic child sexual abuse in

football. 839 alleged victims,

1:38:341:38:41

across the country, referrals from

police and the NSPCC, 294 alleged

1:38:411:38:48

suspects identified. 334 football

clubs named. The age range of

1:38:481:38:55

alleged big teams at the time of the

abuse, four years of age up to 20

1:38:551:38:59

years old. What you say about the

scale of this? -- alleged victims.

1:38:591:39:07

There has been a perfect storm

taking place.

The magnetism of

1:39:071:39:13

football, people with a predilection

for abusing children, what I would

1:39:131:39:17

say to all parents out there, be

reassured, things are so different

1:39:171:39:22

now, the systems are in place and if

you have any concerns about a child,

1:39:221:39:26

report it and it will be responded

to very differently.

Thank you there

1:39:261:39:32

much, Detective Inspector Sarah

Oliver from Cheshire Police. Thank

1:39:321:39:35

you for your time.

1:39:351:39:44

Crewe Alexandra's former managing

director has exclusively told this

1:39:441:39:47

programme that he warned the club

about Barry Bennell's behaviour

1:39:471:39:49

during the late 80s -

and that his warnings were brushed

1:39:491:39:51

under the carpet.

1:39:511:39:52

Hamilton Smith was on the board

at Crewe between 1986 and 1990.

1:39:521:39:56

After hearing rumours

of inappropriate behaviour

1:39:561:39:58

and a second-hand allegation

of abuse from an anonymous parent,

1:39:581:40:01

he says he changed the agenda

of a board meeting to deal directly

1:40:011:40:07

with concerns about the youth coach.

1:40:071:40:11

Jim is back.

1:40:111:40:19

This man is Hamilton Smith, you've

seen parts of an interview with him

1:40:191:40:23

already this morning, he served that

managing director of Crewe Alexandra

1:40:231:40:26

in the late 1980s, one of the most

important members of the backroom

1:40:261:40:31

staff, we are going to play the

entire interview and he mentions a

1:40:311:40:35

number of different people,

including this man, Norman

1:40:351:40:40

Rowlandson, the chairman of Crewe

Alexei dropped to 1989, John Alder,

1:40:401:40:45

vice chairman in the 1980s, another

important man, took over as chairman

1:40:451:40:50

in 1989, still the chairman today,

and Dario Gradi, manager of Crewe

1:40:501:40:57

Alexandra from 83-2011, stepped

down, now the club's director of

1:40:571:41:02

football, currently suspended by the

Football Association violet

1:41:021:41:06

investigates how abuse claims were

handled. We spoke to Hamilton Smith

1:41:061:41:10

and asked him what he remembers

about Barry then all. -- Barry

1:41:101:41:16

Bennell.

The kids were in all of

him. He was the guy who was going to

1:41:161:41:28

make their career.

Crewe Alexandra

had a strong reputation at that time

1:41:281:41:32

for developing young players and

selling them on to other clubs. How

1:41:321:41:38

important was Barry Bennell in that

operation?

Very important. Dario

1:41:381:41:43

told me on more than one occasion he

was more important to Creole exam

1:41:431:41:49

than I am and that is a hell of a

statement.

There are some questions

1:41:491:41:54

around his financial situation, he

would get paid, a section of salon

1:41:541:41:59

fees lips is yes, the club agreed

Dario should get 10% off any players

1:41:591:42:05

he was able to move on, and one day

he came to me and said I want to

1:42:051:42:11

change that 10% on the income from

transfers, I want 3% to go to Barry

1:42:111:42:18

and I will have 7%.

When did you

start hearing complaints about the

1:42:181:42:23

behaviour of Barry Bennell? My lad

played with a football team, I could

1:42:231:42:29

hear comments being made by parents,

Simon wants to go to Crewe Alexandra

1:42:291:42:35

but I'm not having it.

Then you

heard a specific warning...

That was

1:42:351:42:42

a very, that was a shock, it was

only a couple of minutes to go and

1:42:421:42:49

there was a corner kick and it was

raining and I thought, I'll watch

1:42:491:42:54

this corner kick, must be nearly

time, I was watching that and this

1:42:541:42:59

man appeared in front of me and he

said, my friend's son was abused by

1:42:591:43:09

the football coach at Crewe

Alexandra. He turned and walked away

1:43:091:43:14

and the final whistle went. All the

other parents started to move away

1:43:141:43:20

and I was stunned and I then looked

to see if I could see this man, any

1:43:201:43:25

semblance of him, but there was

nothing. Driving home, I thought,

1:43:251:43:29

no, this is no good, I've had it

right up to here. It's got to stop.

1:43:291:43:36

Mr Smith says a meeting was called

at the house of this man, but then

1:43:361:43:40

chairman Norman Rowlandson and...

I

started to give Norman some idea of

1:43:401:43:47

things I'd heard and in particular

the comment made the night before

1:43:471:43:51

and he said, what you telling me? Is

he going around playing with kids

1:43:511:43:57

bits and pieces? Norman then said

I've been on the phone and I've run

1:43:571:44:01

up the Chief super and and asked him

if there was anything on this guide

1:44:011:44:06

Barry Bennell and the answer was no.

But we suggest you move along. And

1:44:061:44:14

so the two place a discussion with

the other directors and they had a

1:44:141:44:19

dilemma and the dilemma was, wait a

minute, Norman, it's OK to say let's

1:44:191:44:23

get rid of him but he is employed

now, nobody has complained.

Hamilton

1:44:231:44:29

Smith claims it was decided he and

John Bowler, the club's

1:44:291:44:34

vice-chairman would hold a meeting

with Ariel Gradi the next day, the

1:44:341:44:39

vice-chairman would still Mr Gradi

to stop Barry Bennell from having

1:44:391:44:44

boys stay at his house.

John said to

Dario I need to bring your attention

1:44:441:44:50

we have a problem with Barry

Bennell. What do you mean you have a

1:44:501:44:55

problem? Well, the understanding is

he is actually taking kids home at

1:44:551:44:59

the weekend to his house. Yes. And

what? Well, this has got to stop.

1:44:591:45:08

Well, he said, I take kids home. I

haven't had any complaints, I

1:45:081:45:14

haven't had any parent who came here

and complained about Barry Bennell

1:45:141:45:18

to me. I felt the whole thing was

farcical. It was serious enough to

1:45:181:45:24

say no, this needs to stop and give

him the reasons why it needs to

1:45:241:45:29

stop. I never saw anything happening

after that meeting, never saw any

1:45:291:45:33

evidence of anything happening.

1:45:331:45:38

Do you feel guilty?

Yes, don't

forget I was a director as well. I'm

1:45:381:45:44

not eliminating myself from that

responsibility. The guilt is from

1:45:441:45:48

not going back to the chairman, that

was a big mistake. I should have

1:45:481:45:51

gone back to the chairman and given

him the opportunity to do something

1:45:511:45:55

about it. If I had done that, maybe

things would not have happened to

1:45:551:45:59

some of these kids.

In your mind,

the board were aware of concerns

1:45:591:46:06

about Barry Bennell?

Yes, if you

didn't know about it, God knows

1:46:061:46:13

where you were, you are not asked

Crewe.

There was a documentary

1:46:131:46:21

broadcast, looking at those

allegations were the first time.

1:46:211:46:23

What did you think when you looked

at that?

Terrible. Absolutely

1:46:231:46:30

terrible. That this had to come to

light in America, not here.

After

1:46:301:46:40

watching the Dispatches programme,

Hamilton Smith said he set up a

1:46:401:46:42

meeting with John Bowler. By that

point, he was Crewe Alexandra's

1:46:421:46:46

chairman. He hasn't yet watched the

Dispatches.

Everybody that was

1:46:461:46:53

interviewed said they did not know

anything, there was nothing that

1:46:531:46:55

they knew about anything going on at

all. I said, you know that when I

1:46:551:47:01

called that special meeting,

Norman's house, when I confronted

1:47:011:47:13

called that special meeting,

Norman's house, when I confronted, I

1:47:131:47:14

was confronted at the training

ground by a parent. He said, no,

1:47:141:47:17

that is not what happened, he did

not let me finish the sentence. To

1:47:171:47:22

me, a barefaced liar. I know about

the meeting, I called the meeting!

1:47:221:47:26

Speaking in 2016, the Crewe chairman

said he had not known about

1:47:261:47:31

Bennell's behaviour at the time.

Were you aware at any point of what

1:47:311:47:35

he was doing?

No.

How do you feel

about the fact he was doing those

1:47:351:47:40

things when you were chairman?

Infuriated and very disappointed.

In

1:47:401:47:46

a statement, the club reiterated

that if it had any suspicion that Mr

1:47:461:47:50

app was committing acts of abuse,

before, during or after he left the

1:47:501:47:55

club's employment, the club would

have informed the police

1:47:551:47:57

immediately. In 2001, Hamilton Smith

set up a meeting with the head of

1:47:571:48:06

safeguarding at the club, Tony

Pickering. What was the reaction

1:48:061:48:11

that he got from the FA have the

time?

I received what I would call a

1:48:111:48:15

Dear John letter. We have

investigated the issue is that you

1:48:151:48:21

have raised and we find there is

nothing to respond to.

What was your

1:48:211:48:26

reaction?

For the very first time...

1:48:261:48:34

For the very first time I was able

to equate with my conscience that I

1:48:401:48:48

had done everything I could. That

was the last call.

Crewe Alexandra

1:48:481:48:54

as a club say that they did not know

anything about his behaviour. How

1:48:541:48:59

does that make you feel?

Furious.

Absolutely furious. I find it

1:48:591:49:06

difficult to believe, with all of

the banter that was going on, all

1:49:061:49:09

that was happening, the meeting and

we had, the special board meeting

1:49:091:49:12

that we had, and they are still

saying they didn't know something

1:49:121:49:18

was going on.

Good Crewe Alexandra

Football Club, and the Football

1:49:181:49:22

Association, -- did they do brush it

under the carpet?

Yes, if you take

1:49:221:49:31

the Football Club first, the

chairman denied the meeting I had

1:49:311:49:33

called had taken place. The FA sent

me a letter, saying they had

1:49:331:49:43

investigated the issues raised and

there was nothing to report.

1:49:431:49:46

Everybody involved could have done,

and should have done, a lot more.

1:49:461:49:55

Where do we go next?

I think we are,

in inverted commas, a good society.

1:49:551:50:05

But the FA, the Government, the

institutions do not seem to have the

1:50:051:50:10

wit to tackle and stop this horrific

thing going on. Bring in some of the

1:50:101:50:19

lads that have been abused. They

will know what to look for if they

1:50:191:50:23

go to a Football Club. We will never

probably eliminate this 100%. But,

1:50:231:50:29

for gods sake, let's try harder.

Let's try harder.

It is worth

1:50:291:50:36

pointing out that the FA are in the

process of carrying out their own

1:50:361:50:40

independent inquiry into abuse in

the game. They say they cannot

1:50:401:50:43

comment on that film or what Mr

Smith was saying until the report

1:50:431:50:47

has been published. Tony Pickering,

mentioned there, the former head of

1:50:471:50:50

safeguarding at the FA, was

approached for comment but would

1:50:501:50:52

only say he has spoken to the

independent inquiry and will wait to

1:50:521:50:57

see its findings. As for Crewe

Alexandra, it is worth repeating

1:50:571:51:00

that the club say it was not aware

of any sexual abuse by Bennell and

1:51:001:51:04

did not receive a single complaint

about him. It pointed out the police

1:51:041:51:13

have conducted their own

investigation and could find no

1:51:131:51:15

evidence to corroborate that the

club was aware of his offending. It

1:51:151:51:19

says if there was any suspicion over

him, they would have informed the

1:51:191:51:22

police immediately.

1:51:221:51:25

How do we make sure that predatory

paedophiles like Barry Bennell are

1:51:251:51:32

not able to operate with impunity in

the future?

1:51:321:51:43

With us in the studio is the NSPCC's

head of policy Almudena Lara

1:51:431:51:46

and from our Sheffield studio we can

speak to former Labour sports

1:51:461:51:49

minister Richard Caborn

and the Labour MP for

1:51:491:51:51

Crewe Laura Smtih -

who is Hamilton Smith's daughter -

1:51:511:51:53

the former managing director

at Crewe who we just heard from.

1:51:531:51:56

As the Labour MP for the area, are

you satisfied that Crewe are doing

1:51:561:52:03

their own inquiry?

We are 15 months

into this, and they have not started

1:52:031:52:06

it, as far as I am concerned. Crewe

really need to use this opportunity

1:52:061:52:11

to come clean and make sure, not

just the supporters, our town feel

1:52:111:52:20

satisfied with the independent

investigation. These guys feel

1:52:201:52:25

satisfied. They have been brave

enough to come forward and they need

1:52:251:52:28

to get their answers to the

questions we have all got.

As a

1:52:281:52:37

solicitor, what is your view on how

we stop others abusing in the way

1:52:371:52:40

that Barry Bennell was able to do

over such a long period of time?

A

1:52:401:52:43

useful tool in my view would be

mandatory reporting.

So it is the

1:52:431:52:49

law that if you know something, you

have to make a complaint to the

1:52:491:52:52

police?

Definitely, we have been

relying on survivors for too long.

1:52:521:52:57

It is not fair on whistle-blowers,

those who have concerns, we need to

1:52:571:53:03

make it safe for everybody in sport

and this would help this.

Let me ask

1:53:031:53:07

you, first of all, you are not...

You don't think mandatory reporting

1:53:071:53:12

necessarily would help?

It would not

help in all situations. It is very,

1:53:121:53:18

very clear, looking at these

particular cases, that if people

1:53:181:53:22

knew they should have taken action,

not taking action when you know

1:53:221:53:27

about abuse is not an option. But we

don't think that mandatory reporting

1:53:271:53:33

is the right way forward in all

cases.

What do you want the

1:53:331:53:38

government back Rutte do?

Well, one

of the small and simple changes that

1:53:381:53:43

the NSPCC has been asking for is an

extension of the positions of trust.

1:53:431:53:48

The positions of trust applied to

teachers at present, who cannot have

1:53:481:53:52

six with 16 and 17-year-olds in

their care -- have sex. It does not

1:53:521:54:02

apply to sport coaches. We work

congratulating ourselves on the

1:54:021:54:06

government promising to make this

change. As of today, we know nothing

1:54:061:54:09

about their plans to make this

happen. This is something that we

1:54:091:54:13

believe is a simple change that

would protect children. It will not

1:54:131:54:16

make it safer for all children. More

needs to be done to develop a

1:54:161:54:22

culture of safeguarding.

Laura

Smith, your father has given an

1:54:221:54:28

interview. Hamilton Smith has given

this interview and has spoken with

1:54:281:54:32

such candour about what he tried to

do. What do you think of what he

1:54:321:54:40

said?

My whole life, I know that my

dad was trying to be heard. He went

1:54:401:54:44

to many different bodies. Until he

have that brave survivor in Andy

1:54:441:54:50

Woodward, sitting on the show, he

did not have the evidence and was

1:54:501:54:56

not listened to. We must never,

ever, let this kind of thing happen

1:54:561:55:00

again.

Thank you all for your

patience. Thank you for coming on

1:55:001:55:05

the programme this morning. We have

had so many messages from our

1:55:051:55:12

audience, for Steve Walters, Gary

Cliffe, I am going to read some. At

1:55:121:55:22

the relevant moment, my tablet has

frozen. Bear with me. You can tell

1:55:221:55:25

me what lessons you think of to be

learned from your own experiences.

1:55:251:55:32

What would you say?

From my point of

view, Victoria, a massive thing

1:55:321:55:41

would be overnight stays. They don't

need to happen. You don't need to go

1:55:411:55:44

to your coach's house to stay

overnight. Forget football, forget

1:55:441:55:51

sport, any kid staying overnight at

a friend's house, you don't know

1:55:511:55:54

that person where they are staying.

I know it is a big comment, but you

1:55:541:55:57

don't know that person. Just think

about it. You've got to take away

1:55:571:56:01

that arena for the abuse.

Let me

read some of these messages. This is

1:56:011:56:06

from Alex. You have reduced me, a

grown adult, to tears, listening to

1:56:061:56:10

the stories of these four courageous

men. May we reward their bravery in

1:56:101:56:16

sharing their hardship by working to

prevent anyone having to go through

1:56:161:56:19

anything like this ever again. Anne

says you are the strongest men that

1:56:191:56:23

she knows. She says, I consider them

my family, and I am very proud of

1:56:231:56:29

them all. Richard says it is

heartbreaking watching the

1:56:291:56:35

programme, total respect to all of

those involved. I wish you well and

1:56:351:56:37

thank you for coming forward. This

is not just in football, but it is

1:56:371:56:42

covered up generally. Time for the

Government to step up and sort this

1:56:421:56:45

out. Sheila says I have sold -- I

have been sobbing throughout this

1:56:451:56:56

programme, strong, grown-up men, but

the sadness on their faces is

1:56:561:56:59

heartbreaking. Someone who doesn't

want to leave their name, I feel I

1:56:591:57:03

should tell my story, but I don't

know who to tell. I have kept it

1:57:031:57:06

away in Pandora's box. I was a

promising young footballer, we had

1:57:061:57:14

won the youth five aside, knocking

out Crewe youth, what happened next

1:57:141:57:20

was not nice. What should they do?

It is just reaching out. There are

1:57:201:57:25

all different sorts of areas where

you can reach out to various

1:57:251:57:30

different authorities. You know, the

first step is actually making the

1:57:301:57:33

phone call. I think that is the

hardest thing. It was probably the

1:57:331:57:36

hardest thing for these guys. I

think once you let go of that, that

1:57:361:57:41

is the start of the process.

Even

just sending a text message?

That is

1:57:411:57:47

just the start. I want to say to

this person, that has not left their

1:57:471:57:52

name, if you contact the action

line, the BBC action line, they will

1:57:521:58:00

put you in the right direction. They

will be able to help you.

Victoria,

1:58:001:58:08

I was just going to say, from my

point of view, I want to thank the

1:58:081:58:14

members of the public, and all of

the support that has been given to

1:58:141:58:17

all of us throughout the 15 months.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank

1:58:171:58:25

you for all of your messages. Have a

good day, we are

1:58:251:58:30

Football's biggest crisis - a two hour special on the football abuse scandal.

Four men abused by Barry Bennell share their stories exclusively with Victoria.

New revelations about who knew what and when.


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