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It's Wednesday, it's 9 o'clock.
I'm Victoria Derbyshire.
Welcome to the programme.
Our top story today...
The United Nations in Syria says
it's deeply worried for hundreds
of thousands of people trapped under
a mounting government bombardment
of the rebel-held enclave of Eastern
We can hear the shouts and crying of
women. And children.
We'll hear more from people
stuck on the ground.
The Supreme Court will rule about
John Worboys. We have been speaking
one of the victims.
I am not worried
about what he will do to me that I
don't want to go back to 2003 and be
watching the news again waiting for
him to reoffend. I know he will
reoffend full I don't want to be in
that position where I will say, I
was right because he will absolutely
do it again.
That full exclusive interview
in the next 15 minutes.
Security experts are warning the
Government needs to tackle the
misuse of artificial intelligence.
They will tell us exactly what they
think that risk is and we will
introduce you to the robot who is
designed to mimic facial expressions
in order to teach autistic children
Welcome to the programme.
We're live until 11 this morning.
Throughout the morning,
the latest breaking news
and developing stories.
A little later we'll hear
about the devastating impact
endometreosis has on women
and hear claims that the NHS
is failing in their care.
If you have endometrosis,
tell us your experience.
Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and,
if you text, you will be charged
at the standard network rate.
Our top story. The bombardment of
rebel-held eastern Ghouta has
continued for a third day. There are
warnings of a second Aleppo. Reports
that 250 people have died following
two days of attacks. According to
activists it is the worst violence
since 2013. Our middle east editor
This could be the beginning
of the end of the rebellion.
enclaves around Damascus
have been starved and
bombed into submission.
Activists in eastern Ghouta say this
is as bad as it has been.
We can hear women and
children crying through
windows of their homes.
The missiles and mortars
dropping on us like rain.
There is nowhere to hide from this
nightmare in easter Ghouta.
They have set up a network
of underground hospitals.
This girl, named in Arabic Angel,
escaped the worst but will have
to go back to the streets
to get home.
And this is her area.
With the regime plane dropping
what appears to be a barrel bomb.
Unguided, an indiscriminate killer.
The Syrian regime denies
It says it is trying to liberate
eastern Ghouta from terrorists.
How many times in the last seven
years have Syrians dug
through the rubble for survivors?
There is talk of safe corridors
out for civilians but,
based on past form, the regime wants
victory in eastern Ghouta
and the surrender of the rebels.
Let's talk to our BBC Arabic
reporter, who is here. Presumably
the authorities and aid agencies are
expecting the civilian casualties to
continue to rise.
Yes. It is
practically enclaves and pockets of
high density, civilian population.
It seems like the ones launching
this attack has not taken into
consideration any thing to basically
minimise at least the number of
civilian casualties. We know the
gunman, they are basically civilians
and live among civilians. It is not
a way to do this was of your risking
the lives of hundreds and thousands
of people. That is why we believe
the number will be huge if the
Russians attempt a similar scenario
in Ghouta as we saw in Aleppo over a
year ago full it is completely out
of proportion, the firepower the
Russians are exerting on those
pockets and enclaves. It is amazing
and horrible. As if you are watching
a movie on the back of the
soundtrack. You hear people in
panic, screaming for help. There is
no help. Their attacks, you name it.
The last 48 hours or few days, they
have been days from hell for the
population of East Ghouta.
very much. Thank you for talking to
us will stop
Annita is in the BBC
Newsroom with a summary
of the rest of the day's news.
The Supreme Court is due to rule
on whether the Metropolitan
Police failed two victims of
the black cab rapist, John Worboys.
The women claim that the failure
to properly investigate
their allegations amounted
to inhuman and degrading treatment -
a claim the police deny.
Here's our legal
correspondent, Clive Coleman.
The two women were sexually
assaulted by John Worboys in 2003
and 2007, but when they reported
the attacks to the police
they weren't believed.
As a result of the police failures,
Worboys was able to continue
to attack women until he was brought
to justice in 2009.
The High Court and Court of Appeal
ruled the police had a duty under
the Human Rights Act to investigate
serious violence against women
and could be held accountable
in the courts if they
failed in that duty.
The women, who both suffered
psychologically, were awarded
£41,000 in total, which they'll
keep in any event.
But the Met supported the then
Home Secretary Theresa May's
appeal to the Supreme Court,
arguing its duty was fulfilled
simply by having practices and
procedures to investigate in place.
A victory for the women would be
police forces could face human
rights actions whenever they fail
to properly investigate
serious violent crime.
and we will be speaking exclusively
to one of the women involved in the
in a few minutes' time. It has
emerged that a former chief
Executive of Save the Children faced
inappropriate behaviour complaints
before leaving the charity. He was
accused of sending inappropriate
text and commenting on what young
female staff were wearing. He said
he apologised to the workers. It
comes as Oxfam and Save the Children
have been separate quizzed about
sexual misconduct for workers.
Brexit supporting MPs have written
to the Prime Minister stating what
they consider it should be achieved
out of a deal with Brussels. They
insist Britain should be free to
negotiate deals with other countries
as soon as it leaves the EU. Let's
talk about this with Norman
Smith at Westminster. Good morning
to you. Tell us about the detail and
This letter has been
sent as a clear warning ahead of the
crucial meeting tomorrow when she
will try to end the splits in the P
net over Brexit and reach a final
agreement. The letter is written in
consider tree language and the
signatories express support for Mrs
May and be approachable Brexit. They
list what they call six suggestions,
things like not taking on any new EU
rules during the so-called
transition period, that we should be
free to negotiate & our own trade
deals, and they also suggest that
Mrs May should go into these
negotiations as an equal partner and
should not accept the EU timeline
and their mandate, and get the sense
they are trying to make sure that
Mrs May does not backslide on their
preferred approach to Brexit. It has
already provoked over backlash from
Tory Brexit critics who described
the signatories to this letter as
ideological obsessives. As for
Downing Street, they have said they
welcome contributions from all
sections of the party.
The majority of small
and medium-sized companies
are still paying male employees more
than their female colleagues,
according to the latest
Just 15% of businesses have a higher
wage bill for women.
Companies have six weeks left
to report their gender pay gap.
So far almost 1,000
businesses have responded
out of the 9,000 asked.
Security experts have warned of the
risk of artificial intelligence
being exploited by rogue states were
criminals and terrorists. The report
warns of scenarios like drones using
face recognition to attack
individuals and hackers manipulating
autonomous cars. The authors say
designers need to do more to prevent
of the technology. The Brit Awards
take place this evening at London's
O2 Arena. Dua Lipa has the highest
number of nominations ever given to
a female artist. She is heading
towards 200,000 sales with her self
titled debut album.
That's a summary of
the latest BBC News.
More at 9:30am.
We will bring you an exclusive
interview where buy a woman raped by
John Worboys she'll be arguing the
Metropolitan Police failed her
because they did not investigate her
case properly. She went to the
police back in 2003. In fact, John
ten -- John Worboys drove her then.
Do get in touch with us
throughout the morning.
Let's get some sport
Hugh, we start in South Korea.
We always get entranced
by the curling competition
and there's some good
news for Team GB.
Yes, good morning. Some very good
news for Team GB. The tournament
lasts virtually the entire winter
Olympics. The final round matches
work today and victory for Team GB.
The very good one indeed over the
defending champions Canada means
they have reached the semifinals.
They were trailing by a couple of
points going into the final few
ends. They secured two points on the
final end to snatch a 6-5 victory.
It knocks the defending champions
out of the competition, so we could
be looking at a potential medal on
the way for Eve Muirhead and the
A very good win for them and
their plans. Delighted. We knew it
would be a really tough game against
Canada. To book our spot in the
semifinal, it is our first goal and
we are delighted with that.
about the jump in the air question
we saw you leaving the eyes.
cannot actually remember it. You are
in that zone quickly forget about
the small things. I am glad I
learned safe on my feet.
matter for the Team GB men.
Unfortunately they were beaten,
crashed 10-4 in the game against the
United States. That means the
captain and his team will have a
play-off to see if they can reach
the final four. That would be
against Switzerland just after
From the ice, to the snow.
Billy Morgan must get a mention -
it's the first time the Big Air
competition has been held,
and he is into the final -
scoring 87.5 and then
90.5 on his second run.
Seven points off the top score.
He'll have to push his
tricks a bit further.
That final will be in the early
hours of Saturday morning. And
Lionel Messi finally got his header
against Chelsea last night?
The five-time Ballon D'Or winner
hadn't scored in nine
Champions League games
against Chelsea, but all of that
changed in an intriguing last 16
first leg tie at Stamford Bridge.
Messi and his teammates are top
of the Spanish top division
and largely controlled things.
But the clearest chances
on the night went to Chelsea -
Willian had hit the post twice
before making it third time lucky.
But you can't give Messi this
sort of opportunity -
a misplaced pass allowing
Andres Iniesta to play
in the Argentine forward
for a crucial away goal.
The match ending 1-1.
Despite having just 27%
possession on the night -
Chelsea boss Antonio Conte said
it was almost "the perfect
performance" and that they'll
"try to do something incredible"
by knocking out the Spanish giants
in a few weeks at the Nou Camp.
When two women were raped
by the same man four years apart,
the police didn't believe either
of their stories.
That man was John Worboys,
the black cab rapist,
who was later convicted on 19
charges, including rape
and sexual assault.
Police now believe he may have
attacked over 100 people.
This morning, the Supreme Court
will rule on whether
the Metropolitan Police is liable
to those two victims
because it failed to properly
investigate their allegations.
The two women were assaulted
by Worboys in 2003 and 2007.
As a result of the police failures,
Worboys was able to continue
to attack women until he was brought
to justice in 2009.
Two courts have already
ruled in their favour,
but the Metropolitan Police,
backed by the Home
Office, have appealed.
A victory for the women
today would mean police
forces could face human
rights actions whenever they fail
to properly investigate
serious violent crime.
In a moment, we'll speak
exclusively to one of those
women and her solicitor -
the conversation as you'd expect
is graphic and frank in places,
and you nay not want young
children to watch.
children to watch or listen.
But first here's a look at why
today's ruling is important -
there are some flashing
images coming up.
He is one of Britain's worst serial
sex attacker is. He has been found
guilty of 19 offences against 12
women. -- attackers. But police say
the number of women he attacked me
run into the hundreds. His name is
John Worboys. He would drive around
London in his black late at night
aching up winning. He would tell
them lies about winning the lottery
so that he had a reason to offer
champagne. -- picking up women. He
would then drug and sexually assault
them. Occurs of the sedatives he
used, many of the victims would have
had no recollection of what
happened. He was caught and jailed
in 2009 but a parole board decided
he could be eligible for release
last month. It caused outrage, with
many victims finding about his
impending release in the press.
growing criticism of the Parole
Board's decision to release serial
sex attacker John Worboys...
years previously two victims of John
Worboys won a case against the
Metropolitan Police about the way
they investigated the case. The two
women said that when they reported
the case to the police in 2003 and
2007, officers did not believe them
and so did not investigate properly.
The Metropolitan Police had several
opportunities to apprehend and stop
him and didn't. In one case he was
so confident of getting away with
his crimes that he actually drove
his victim to the police station and
dropped her off there. Officers took
neither his name nor his rigid
The two women
brought their case against the
police. A Court of Appeal upheld the
verdict but the Met has taken the
case to the Supreme Court. The
result will be important in deciding
weather the police can be held to
account for breaching victims'
And we can exclusively speak to one
of those women you just heard about,
who was driven to a police station
by John Worboys after
he'd attacked her.
We are going to call her
Fiona this morning -
not her real name -
and she's joined by her
solicitor Harriet Wistritch.
Thank you for talking to us. How did
you come into contact with Worboys?
In 2003I was out with some friends
are celebrating a friend's birthday
party. After the night out, I was
with some groups of friends who
hailed a cab for me. I got into the.
-- in to the cab. There was nothing
which made me feel uncomfortable or
threatened by his manner, he was
just a chatty, talking about the
night out, asking where I lived, did
I live on my own, asking about my
family. I was expecting to him it
was my friend's birthday party. And
I had just had a baby so that was
the first night out since having the
baby, who was with my partner that
night. And then he offered me a
What kind of a drink?
it was just... It was just a
really... I Remoaner taking a sip
out of it, it was a really strong
orange liqueur, it wasn't very nice
at all. I didn't particularly want
it because at that point of the
night I was going home because I had
to be up early in the morning and I
really didn't want to drink any
more, I had stopped drinking some
time before. And we went over a
speed bump and I did spill
practically all the drink over
myself, apologised but he pulled me
another one. And I really can't
explain why I drank the drink but I
think it was just one of those
situations where you just feel, just
print it. It's just a drink, it will
be fine, he can take me home. --
just drink it. And then there was
some conversation about him is
stopping for a cigarette or
something. And did I want to have a
cigarette? I might even have asked
him, is it OK if I smoked ham and
because I think in 2003 we did smoke
in. And he pulled over and I
remember him getting into the back
of the cab with me. And I remember
him putting his... I think he went
to put his arm around me and I just
remember, before I blacked out, just
saying he was nice. Which are sort
of creep me out a little bit because
I just wondered if I had somehow
encouraged him by saying that. I
think I was just meaning, you're a
nice guy because you've just given
me a cigarette or something. It
wasn't intended to be anything other
than that. And the next memory I
have is waking up in hospital.
That's when you woke up and thought,
what on earth happened?
Yeah. I woke
up and I was very confused, very
disorientated and I had a drip in my
almond I pulled the drip out and
went to the toilet. I think I was
having a bit of a meltdown. Looking
back on it it was a bit embarrassing
because I think I was running around
shouting at the nurses, I don't know
where I am, where am I? They didn't
realise what I meant and they kept
saying, you're in hospital. I was
like I know I am in hospital but
where? I didn't know which hospital
I was in and I was really upset
because I should have been home
looking after my baby.
Did you know
you'd been raped?
As soon as I sat
on the toilet I knew I had been
raped. I was a little bit sore
and... And when I went to the toilet
the tampon that I was wearing fell
out, and I knew instantly because of
the way I was. The nurse was trying
to calm me down and I kept saying, I
need... I need to speak to the
police, I've been raped. And I do
remember one of the nurses saying,
it's fine, come and sit down, the
police are on their way. I don't
know to this day where she got this
from, how she knew.
But what you
learned subsequently was that
actually Worboys had driven you to a
police nation after he had raped
And when you arrived at
the police station, according to to
what has been heard in court
previously, you were incapacitated,
you were disorientated, you were
vomiting. How did the police treat
Well, they assumed that I was
just some drunk that night. .
did they take his details?
this is the thing, I was given three
different stories of what happened
that night by the police. And that
was all within the space of a couple
of hours. First of all I was told
they had his details, because when
the police came to the hospital, I
told them what had happened to me.
And I think they told me that he
taken me to the police station. And
I said, well, did you get his
details? They went, yes, of course,
we've got his details, and I was
relieved. Because I knew it was him.
And they assured me they had all of
his details, his name, cab number,
everything. And then a little bit
later, I was told that he had given
false details, so I was... Well,
that proves that he had something to
hide, then. And then quite quickly
after that it turned out that they
had no details for him, nobody had
bothered to ask, because hit told
them that I was in that state when
he had picked me up. Although I was
told afterwards by the other person
that had encouraged... That he was
arguing with Worboys in front of the
police, saying, that lady isn't just
drunk, it's clear she's not just
drunk, and a black cab driver does
not pick up fares in that state.
What do you think of the fact that
after he attacked you in the back of
his cab, he then had the arrogance,
audacity, to take you to a police
I don't think that was ever
his choice of. I think that was
because he took me to the wrong
address, and the involvement of that
other person. I think Howard... I do
believe that had that other person
not been in the property, I would
have been dumped near the property
in the alleyway at the back, because
I don't think he ever would have
taken me to the police station.
the police taking his details, they
might have realised... The way the
police handled your complaint,
you've already said they treated you
as a drunk that night - after that?
Well, I thought, when I was taken to
Telford, it seemed to be ticking all
the right boxes and I felt that
things were being dealt with as they
should be. -- Ilford. But when I
came home from two big that
afternoon, after being examined,
which is actually quite a stressful
situation, it is not a nice thing to
have to happen to you, to be dropped
off and left with a baby while they
take your partner into the police
station for, just to give a
statement, and he's gone for two
hours and you're left, still
disorientated, still under the
influence of whatever drugs he's
given, extremely upset, and
emotional, to look after a baby on
your own, I did feel that was very
inappropriate. I felt I should have
had a little bit of of support there
or the option of calling a friend or
somebody to be with me, because I
just remember phoning their partner
constantly to say, how long are you
going to be? Because the baby is
crying. And at that point I felt I
could not pick him up and comfort
him, because I just felt I was not
capable of doing that because I was
very upset and I didn't want to be
around him while I was that upset.
Ultimately the police did not
believe you had been attacked?
You gave evidence on video, and one
of the things which was said was
that you weren't a credible witness
- they didn't believe you?
was told two days later, when I was
picked up, because I think you have
to do the video evidence within 48
hours, and they picked me up from my
partner Schiele is flat, and as we
were driving down to the police
station, I was told by the officers
in the police car that this was
really important book that it was as
factual as possible, and to try and
women are as much as I could. It
would be shown in court if it went
to prosecution. Therefore, emotions
just confuse everybody, you've got
to be as concise as you possibly
can. So, the way I've always spoken
about what happened that night is
the way I am talking to you I detach
myself, because otherwise I do get
upset. So, I'm talking about it as
if it's a story that happened to
somebody else. And they were very
clear in the police car that that's
what they needed, so I thought, OK,
I'll try my best here, put a brave
face on it, so I went in and told
them all the facts that I could
remember, and tried to keep it
together. And then halfway through
the interview, the officer left the
room, his colleagues were in the
room next door filming. He was gone
for a few minutes and he came back
and sat down and he said, to be
honest, I've interviewed quite a few
raped victims and you're not
believable. He said, most victims
would be crying, shouting,
screaming, even throwing things
around, and you're sitting there as
calm as anything. He said, you're
not coming across as believable.
What impact did that have on you
then and over the subsequent years?
Well, identity to explain to him
what had happened on the way there,
even though in the next room where
the people that told me this. And
they were watching via the cameras.
I explained what had happened, but
he said, no, they're not supposed to
coach people, so he didn't believe
And that had an impact on you
over the years after that?
absolutely. I felt then, that's when
I really felt that the investigation
was going downhill. Because then
after that, I spoke to another
officer, and they said that, I have
noticed over the 48 hours since the
attack, I had a lot of bruising come
out, and could we have them
photographed for evidence, because
it was clear that they were
handgrips on the? And to me it
looked like somebody had been
holding me down or something because
they were on my arms and legs. And I
was told, that's fine, somebody will
be in touch. And I think there must
be something inside me that made me
realise, this is really important,
because they're not going to do it.
So the next day I actually went and
saw my GP and had it recorded, the
In 2008 Granollers a call
for witnesses and victims of John
Worboys which is when you went
forward again. -- there was a call.
I didn't want to go forward, to
start with, if I am honest. When I
had a call from my friends who was
with me that night, he saw it on the
news and said, I think that is him.
I did the late because I thought I
can't go through that I can't go
through another five years of not
being believed, being told he made
it up, being told a black cab driver
just would not do that, being told
that you could not possibly have
been raped because you are wearing a
tampon. It was absolutely
horrendous. For five years I was
doubting my own sanity. Had I
imagined it? Had I made it up? I
couldn't confide in many people
about what had happened because it
was so difficult to say to somebody
this is what happened but nobody
believes me. And to go through all
of that again, it did take me a
little while. When I was seeing the
numbers going up and up and up, I
always said to the police when they
closed the file he would reoffend,
he would definitely reoffend because
I refuse to pick up my clothes. They
said he would definitely reoffend
and I would need them as evidence.
Seeing the numbers going up in terms
of women coming forward, literally
over days, it was horrendous. I
never realised he was going to
reoffend that many times and I had
to go forward, I had to do
everything I could.
today that is being heard in the
Supreme Court, is all about whether
the police failed to conduct an
effective investigation. I'm going
to bring in your solicitor, if I
may. The Met, then backed by the
then Home Secretary to reason me are
fighting this ruling. What are the
implications if you do win today?
we win, it will establish in law
that the police do have a duty to
undertake effective investigations
into crimes that meet the threshold
of article three, which is inhumane
and degrading treatment, of which
rape would qualify. It would be an
historic judgment if it goes in that
way because, so far, the courts have
been tested a number of times about
whether police are liable under the
common-law of negligence. The courts
have consistently said he cannot
bring negligence claims against the
police for failed investigations.
What we have argued is, under the
Human Rights Act, the state has a
duty to ensure its citizens are not
subject to inhumane and degrading
treatment. We have argued that that
duty extends to having an effective,
not just effective laws, but
actually operation of those laws.
That is essentially what the
argument is and what we're waiting
to hear, what the court will decide.
So it would be, if it goes the right
way, it would be very good for rape
victims and other victims of serious
And it would open
the doors to potentially sue other
forces for failing to carry out an
Potentially. They are
not saying every single case would
lead to a civil claim. They have
been careful to say it has been
really serious failures. As we heard
in this case, it is not just what
happened to Fiona, it is what
happened to my other clients. We
know that ten women reported Worboys
to the police before eventually they
made the connection. Once the media
appeal went out, 105 cases were
linked. And so, very many women
don't even report. Of course, where
drugs are used, women aren't even
sure what has happened to them. So,
this is so important because we have
to, we have to get confidence from
women to report. I don't know why
the Home Secretary took the decision
to side with the police when she
made statements about the importance
of violence against women and
The police argument is,
if the ruling goes your way if you
win you are effectively imposing an
investigative duty on the police was
that they are saying we have
procedures in place and practices in
place and that is enough.
precisely the point. What is so
startling when Reid took this case
to trial originally, that is right.
They did have procedures and
guidelines in place. There was a
whole set of guidelines about how
you assess drug assisted rape and
they did not follow them. An
inspector in court said that my
council said but what do you think
this guideline is here for question
he said, I don't know. Is it to
protect us from litigation or
something? If that is the attitude
you cannot just have laws and
guidelines if they are not enforced
Let me bring the owner
back in. There is a separate,
judicial review which you are also
bringing. -- Fiona. That is about
the release of John Worboys and the
decision made by the Independent
parole board to release him after
eight years. You want that stopped,
reversed will stop it meant you
faced John Worboys in court a few
Tell us about that.
already warned he could possibly
have been there on video link. I was
sort of prepared for him there. But
when, obviously, I was told he would
be there in person, it was a bit
difficult walking through the doors
and getting to court. I think I was
a little bit late. I made it because
I felt it was really important to
show Worboys himself I was not
scared anymore because I do believe
that rape is not about sex, it is
about control and power. I want to
take back control and power back
from him by showing him I was no
longer afraid of him.
What did you
think when you saw him?
When I saw
him I was expecting a big, scary
monster to come through the doors.
Over this amount of time, 15 years,
you build it up in your head of what
he will be like. When he first
walked through the doors I was just
struck by, oh my God, he's pathetic.
A pathetic old man. He was all
hunched over and reading his hands
were talking were talking. Talking
just above a whisper. A couple of
times he looked at me and I saw his
eyes. Do you know what? He has not
changed one bit. Every woman that
got in a cab reported the reason
they accepted that drink was because
they felt sorry for him. It was
pathetic. It was an act. I do
believe going to court was an act. I
saw his eyes. He is still capable of
what he was doing ten years ago.
Absolutely still capable. I will
keep fighting. I will do whatever it
takes to keep him behind bars for
debate is the only way will be
protected from him, if he is behind
bars. No licensing conditions can
watch in 24/ seven.
You are adamant
he is still a danger?
As far as I'm
concerned, he is a danger. I am not
concerned about what you can do to
me because is nothing more he can do
to me that I don't want to go back
to 2003 and be watching the news
again, waiting for him to reoffend.
I know he will reoffend and I don't
want to be in a position where I
said, I was right, I told you he
would do this again. He will. He
will absolutely do this again and we
need to protect women from him.
That was "Fiona" whose case
is at the supreme court today
and her solicitor Harriet Wistritch.
We are expecting that ruling very
soon. Andy says...
That says... -- Bev. And from
This from Ian.
These women have already been paid
This is the news to do with
unemployment will do it increased by
46,000 to 1.47 million according to
the office for National Statistics.
The unexpected rise from a record
low was accompanied by an
improvement in pay rises which
averaged 2.5%, excluding bonuses.
Next this morning...
How hundreds of Britain's
homeless are being trapped
into modern slavery.
An investigation by Buzzfeed News
has found that hundreds of hundreds
of homeless people have been
captured over the past three years -
approached at soup kitchens
and while sleeping rough,
and lured into slavery with
the promise of drugs and alcohol.
Some have been found locked
in caravans, without heating,
bedding, or running water; others
chained up, or locked outside.
Jane Bradley is Buzzfeed News'
who has uncovered this story.
Jane, what did you learn
about how homeless people
are being 'enslaved'?
We often hear the term hidden in
plain sight. In this case it really
was. We found evidence that
traffickers were targeting homeless
people are sick kitchens, shelters,
and rough sleeping hotspots all over
the UK. This was often incredibly
brazen, in broad daylight. What is
really shocking is just how
calculated and organised the
recruitment is. These are not just
opportunistic pick-ups. This is the
deliberate targeting people who are
desperate, vulnerable, and often
have some kind of addiction mental
health issues that traffickers are
ultimately preying on. Turning up at
soup kitchens with the promise of
cash or a bed. Sometimes even drugs
or alcohol. Whatever that
vulnerability is that these
traffickers are playing on, some
shelters even reported gang masters
posing as volunteers or rough
sleepers themselves in order to
infiltrate the plays and recruit
more homeless workers. That is what
we are talking about here.
time doing secret filming on groups
of homeless people and potential
Tell us about that. We
wanted to find evidence for this
ourselves and we spent weeks
carrying out surveillance and
secretly filming brands and cars as
they picked up homeless and
destitute workers on a street corner
in Bradford and took them to local
worksites. Every day, around 7am, up
to 15 men would be standing on these
corners waiting for work. Often four
hours in the freezing cold or
pouring rain and it really was like
watching a red light district. A car
or van would pull up, the window
would go down and I homeless worker,
a destitute worker with leaning,
sometimes negotiate, get into the
car, and drive off. We followed some
of these workers to construction
sites, a charity clothing bank, and
even a law firm in Bradford. We
found evidence of exploitation. One
gang master admitted to paying less
than the minimum wage. Another said
he did employ a homeless worker for
cash in hand Labour but he paid him
fairly. A third guy simply said, no
one is making them stand there.
the victims are recruited, how are
I spoke to six victims
for this investigation full debate
all painted a picture of
backbreaking 12 hour shifts in
factories, hotels, construction
sites all over the UK. This would
often be working seven days a week
for as little as £20 at the end of
it. Sometimes nothing at all. They
would be kept in the filthy, rat
infested caravans, offer with no hot
water, no running water, no
electricity, no heating. Or it might
be a terraced house where up to 50
workers would be kept in while they
worked for these slave masters. In
one case actually a police officer
told me she had come across 25
people living in the garden of a
house in what she described as
rabbit hutch is. Of course, there is
often threats or beatings at the
hands of the traffickers in order to
basically scare the victims into
staying put. One of the victims I
spoke to for this investigation told
me he had witnessed a gang master
pouring boiling hot Coffey over a
victim. Another tried to strangle
someone with his own shirt. It is
not just physical assaults that they
face. Traffickers will often steal
ID documents of victims to keep them
trapped, or run up imaginary debts
for living costs so they can spend
decades paying off this money. My
mother did you get the sense in your
investigation of how bad the problem
is, how widespread it is? One thing
that really struck me when I first
started to look into this was how
much of an open secret it seemed to
be in the sector, amongst homeless
charities in shelters and even the
police force. That was in contrast
to public awareness around the
issue. We did some digging and found
there have been hundreds of reports
of homeless victims of modern
slavery in the UK in the past three
years. There were 278 in the last
year alone. These figures are very
likely to be the tip of the iceberg,
simply because many of these cases
are undocumented. The Government,
the local authorities, and many
police forces have failed to keep
track of any data of homeless
victims of modern slavery. Our
analysis really is the first insight
we have had into the scale of the
problem and what it shows is these
are not one-offs. This is a
widespread crime targeting some of
the most vulnerable people in our
We've been speaking to a victim
of the Rooney family,
who were convicted last September
of modern-day slavery offences
after they illegally held 18 men
at a caravan site in Lincoln.
Fred, which isn't his real name,
has learning difficulties
and was picked up by the Rooneys
at a soup kitchen in Reading before
being driven to Lincoln,
where he would live in squalor
for the next 12 years.
He's been speaking to our
reporter Greg Dawson.
Fred, just tell me about the day
that you first met the Rooney
family, what can you remember?
traveller came in and asked for some
workers and I was the only one they
asked. They said the work would be
time making and block paving. I got
into the van because they said they
wanted another van pushed to get it
started. I got into the van and I
just wondered what was going to
happen to me and I ended up in
When you were in the van,
did they tell you where they were
No. When I got out of
the van it was dark and I was shown
a caravan, and I stayed in that
caravan until the morning. There
were no washing facilities or
electric or nothing. I didn't sleep
at all because I just wanted to get
off that site and I didn't know
where I was. They gave me breakfast
and told me what duties I had to do
there, and if I didn't do what I was
told I would get slapped up from
Martin. Martin was the boss of them.
I got on friendly with him at first
but after a while he started
What did they tell you
that they would pay you when you
were working for them?
They said I
would get £20 to £30 a day for just
doing things like digging out a
driveway and getting it ready for
paving or tarmac.
And did they ever
give you that money?
No. Never. All
the time I was there I got nothing
off them. They also took my benefits
from me that I was paid every
If you refused to do the
work they were asking, what would
If I didn't do the work, I'd
get slapped by the dad. And if the
dad wasn't there, I'd get slapped by
the twins. I had no choice.
often would they beat you?
day, if I didn't do what they
wanted. He would either use his belt
or his fist. I wanted to walk off
there and then, but I didn't know
where I was or where to go. I was
What did you do for food
when you were living there?
a friend of mine who used to go to
raid the bins at the local shops to
feed himself. And when he went
looking for food I went with him. We
got into the bins, taking bread and
whatever else was worth eating. I
would also do a bit of hunting. I
used to they're rabbits and did my
own little rabbit stews and that.
Tell me about the conditions in the
caravan itself - were you able to
have a shower, use the toilets?
wanted the toilet I would have to go
behind the nearest bush.
were no toilets?
There was no toilet
there. I couldn't have a wash or
So, you lived for 12 years
with no toilets, with no washing
No. Access to a shower
was a no-go, toilet was a no-go. If
I wanted a wash I would have to walk
down to the nearest rock and have a
wash in there. Them days was hard,
and I hope it doesn't happen to
anybody else. -- the nearest brook.
There's me and a few others that
have been through it, and I wouldn't
want it to happen to anybody else.
Did you ever wonder when you were
there, is anybody looking for me?
Yeah, I wondered that, because I
lost contact with all my friends and
that. I'd given up hope until the
police found me.
12 years is such a long time to be
trapped somewhere, to be exploited,
and to be abused as you work - what
effect has that had on your life?
don't like being out all day,
because I know people could be out
there wanting workers. It's hard. I
do not want to see it happen to
anybody. There's homeless people out
there, and I don't want to see them
in the same place I was. It's
affected me a lot. Now, I'm away
from them, I'm glad to be where I am
now. If it hadn't been for the
police rescuing me, I wouldn't be
walking about, I'd probably be in a
wooden box somewhere.
Right now we're going straight to
the Supreme Court in London live,
where they're delivering a ruling on
the cases wrought by two women
against the Mike Pollitt police in
the Worboys case...
constituted a violation of their
rights under article three of the
European Convention on Human Rights
and their freedoms. Article three
provides that no-one shall be
subjected to torture or inhuman or
degrading treatment or punishment.
The main issue on the appeal was to
what extent Article three imposes a
positive obligation on states
effectively to investigate reported
crimes perpetrated by private
individuals. The High Court and the
Court of Appeal held that a positive
obligation to investigate did exist,
and that in this case, that
obligation had not been fulfilled.
Compensation was awarded to DSD and
NBV. Commissioner of the police
appealed to the Supreme Court, and
it was accepted that whatever the
outcome of this appeal, recoupment
of any compensation that had paid
would not be sorted. The main area
of dispute was the nature of the
positive obligation imposed by
article three of the Convention. In
particular, the question arose as to
weather that obligation relates only
to systemic failures on the part of
the police, or weather it also
includes failures in the conduct of
the investigation. The Supreme Court
unanimously dismisses the
commissioner's appeal. There was
disagreement between us as to
whether a liability under the Human
Rights Act arose only due to
systemic failures or whether
efficiency is in the actual
investigation of the offences would
be enough to make the police libel.
By a majority, we have held that
failures in the investigation of the
crimes, provided they are
sufficiently serious, will give rise
to liability on the part of the
police. And we further found that
there WERE such serious efficiencies
in this case. There were, of course,
both systemic and investigatory
failures, a the important point to
make is that if the investigation is
seriously defective, even if no
systemic failures are present, this
would be enough to render the police
libel. The court is now adjourned.
So, the two women who argued that
the Met Police breached their human
rights for failing to investigate
claims that they had been raped by
John Worboys in 2003 and 2007 have
won their case. The Metropolitan
Police have lost. And indeed, the
Home Office backed by the then Home
Secretary Theresa May, have lost
that case. We can go to June Kelly,
our correspondent, outside the
Supreme Court. We heard most of the
ruling, but just fill us in with the
significance of this?
I think the
first thing to say, Victoria, is
that this is a significant victory
for these women and a serious defeat
for the Met Police, who had brought
this challenge, having lost in the
lower courts. They then came to the
Supreme Court, the highest court in
the land, in the hope that they
would win here, the police, and
obviously, an important defeat for
them. As we were hearing from the
justices, they said that they
accepted the arguments from the
women's lawyers that the police had
breached these women's human rights
over their failure to investigate
John Worboys. As we know, John
Worboys was roaming around the
streets of London committing crimes
against women for a number of years,
and it has been acknowledged by the
Met Police that he should have been
brought to justice earlier. And the
women brought this case on that
basis, that he could have been
stopped earlier. This case tells one
of the most significant things about
it is that it will have implications
now for forces around the country
over a possible failure to
Meaning what, you mean
other people might sue police forces
for failures to investigate
Yes, and we're talking
about serious crimes here, serious
violent crimes, is what the women's
lawyers had argued this case was
about. And basically this is why the
police fought this case all the way
to this court, because they realised
the implications if the judgment
went against them. And of course
now, it has done, as we have heard
in the last few minutes. The women
it should be said, in this case, the
two women, are also the women who
are bringing a challenge against the
decision to release Worboys from
prison on licence. That is a
separate case going on through a
separate judicial process. But
coming back to what's going on here
this morning, crucially, the judges
have said, the justices have said,
that the women's human rights were
breached because the force was under
an obligation to investigate John
Worboys. It failed in that duty. It
is a duty of the state, as it was
put in the judgment, and therefore
this is why the Met Police this
morning have lost this case.
you, June Kelly, outside the Supreme
Court. So, a significant ruling from
the Supreme Court in the last few
minutes. We spoke to one of the
women who was taking that case, who
has won that case, at the start of
the programme this morning. Your
reaction now as you were watching...
This one says... A horrific
experience, such a brave woman. The
police should be ashamed of
themselves in the way that they
treated her when she was at her most
vulnerable. I hope her bravery and
other women who exposed their
attacks encourage others to come
forward and report these crimes.
This one says... It is ridiculous
that the police did not properly
investigate and take the information
of the person who dropped the woman
off at the police station who was in
such a state. It is beyond belief
and completely unprofessional. This
one says... On Twitter the Met
Police do need to be held
accountable for failing survivors of
the black cab rapist. It is clear to
see the emotional suffering caused
by poor standards in investigations.
And one more... To relive the events
and the trauma to complete strangers
in positions of authority and not to
be believed, to be told that you
aren't credible, nor behaving as a
victim of sexual assault should, is
inhumane. More reaction to come to
the Supreme Court ruling in the next
hour of the programme. We will bring
you the latest news and sport in a
moment. Before that, the weather
High pressure building in across the
UK, so it is quiet weather. The fog
is quite slow to clear in some areas
but there will be some sunshine for
most areas at some stage today.
There are areas of cloud around,
particularly in England and Wales.
But even here I think the cloud will
break at times and at least it will
brighten up. There is the chance of
the odd light shower in some areas
but it is mainly dry story. Very few
wind arose showing up, which
indicates very light winds and
temperatures topping out at about
659 Celsius. Next week is looking
much colder. But going towards
weekend temperatures will be
dropping off a little bit. And
tonight there will be a more
widespread frost around. We've got
plenty of clear spells, still some
patchy cloud and patches of fault
developing as well as we go through
the night. Temperatures in two
tomorrow morning close to freezing,
a few degrees below in the coldest
spots. More of us getting a frost
tomorrow morning, and tomorrow, just
like today, there will be areas of
cloud around, there will be sunny
spells, and whilst most places are
looking dry, there will be enough
cloud towards Northern Ireland and
western Scotland to produce a few
light showers here. Temperatures
just dropping off a degree or so
again, and that is the trend for the
rest of the week and into the
weekend, turning colder as lead at
the weekend, as the winter starts to
hit up and some really bitter, cold
air expect it for a time next week
and a few snow showers around as
well. We will keep you updated.
It's 10 o'clock.
I'm Victoria Derbyshire.
Breaking news in
the last few minutes.
The Metropolitan Police
has lost its Supreme Court challenge
over a ruling which led to two
women who were sexually
assaulted by London cabbie
John Worboys winning compensation.
We've been speaking exclusively
to one of those women.
I am not worried about
what he will do to me but I
don't want to go back
to 2003 and be watching
the news again waiting
him to reoffend.
I know he will reoffend full
I don't want to be in
that position where I will say, I
was right because he will absolutely
do it again.
We'll bring much more reaction
to this throughout the programme.
Also on the programme -
The United Nations in Syria says
it's deeply worried for hundreds
of thousands of people trapped under
a mounting government bombardment
of the rebel-held enclave
of Eastern Ghouta.
We can hear the shouts and crying
of women and children.
The mortars are dropping
on us like rain.
There is nowhere to hide from this
nightmare in Eastern Ghouta.
Women who've had their ovaries
or wombs removed to treat
the painful condition
of endometriosis say they are not
receiving the right after care.
The Supreme Court has made a ruling
over the John Worboys case. The
women claimed police failures
amounted to inhuman and degrading
treatment. The Metropolitan Police
had argued it had practices and
procedures in place that, in the
last few minutes, the court ruled
against them. Fiona is one of the
women involved in today's's case.
She was not one of the women that
Worboys was convicted of raping that
she has been recognised as a victim
of rape since by the police was she
told this programme exclusively
about what happened to her in John
Worboys cab. She is appearing
alongside her lawyer.
was a conversation about him
stopping for a cigarette or
something and did I want a
cigarette. I might even have asked
him if it was OK to smoke. In 2003
you did smoke in cabs. People Dover
and I render him getting into the
back of the cab with me. -- he
pulled over and I remember him. He
went to put his arm around me.
Before I lacked out I can remember
thinking he was nice. I wonder if I
encouraged him by saying that. I
think I was meaning, you are a nice
guy because you have given me a
cigarette or something. It was not
intended to be anything other than
that. The next memory I have is
waking up in hospital.
That is when
you woke up and thought, what on
Yes. I woke up and
was very confused very
disorientated. I had a drip in my
arm and pulled the drip out and went
to the toilets. I think I was having
a bit of a meltdown for the looking
back at it hit was a bit
embarrassing because I was running
around and shouting at the nurses, I
don't know where I am, where am I?
They did not realise what I meant.
They kept saying I was in hospital.
I didn't know which hospital I was
in and I was really upset because I
should have been home looking after
Did you know you had been
As soon as I went to the
toilet I knew I had been raped. I
was a little bit sore. When I went
to the toilet the tampon I was
wearing fell out. I knew instantly
because of the way I was.
read you some more messages.
Delighted by the Supreme Court
decision to dismiss the appeal by
the Metropolitan Police. This is
justice. This text, I totally feel
the pain of having seen Worboys in
court. I was a victim of sexual
assault three years ago. I was a
teenager at the time did not go to
court I saw the person who did it in
the supermarket a few months ago. By
blood ran cold and I left
immediately. What is not understood
as the victim has a mental life
sentence. Sue says, I sat down
briefly this money to watch part of
your programme and stayed with the
interview with the John Worboys rape
victim. I was stunned and mesmerised
by her bravery and coherence telling
her story. It must have taken so
much to read tell the horrific
events she has enjoyed. I cannot
believe the police reaction. Let me
introduce you to the people
supporting the women's legal
challenge. And also someone from the
Metropolitan Police who investigated
rapes during his time with the
force. The women were arguing above
a breach of human rights that police
failed to investigate claims
What do you say? That
judgment today is a huge victory for
victims rights and huge step forward
in an end of this.
I am appalled by
what I saw today. I already knew
about it. This all happened as I was
retiring. We had done so much about
bringing on sexual investigations.
For my part, it was about stalking
and a lot has been achieved on that.
I don't think the police has
entirely got it right. The
comeuppance has happened now. There
are strings attached to it for the
police with floodgates opening with
claims from things like that. They
will have to be careful on that.
say floodgates opening. The Justice
has made clear that this will only
apply to serious crimes. Simek yes.
I'm happy you mean other people who
feel the police has failed to
investigate claims properly can
soon. 's aye you are right. Anyone
who has been involved in a car
crash, you get calls from different
companies wanting to represent them.
We are in that sort of society.
Police are bound to be concerned
Let me read to this
statement from the major bulletin
police, from the Deputy
Commissioner. He says the metabolic
and police that is fully accepts the
decision of the court this morning.
-- the Metropolitan Police Service.
We have fully accepted the
complaints and it was only the
courage of the victims coming
forward, including these two
complainants today, who have come
forward. Police force needed
absolute clarity and the boundaries
of police responsibility and
liability for their investigations.
We have always been clear that
appeal to the supreme court was
about interpretation of European
human rights law.
Do you accept
that? It is good the police are
accepting the decision. They had no
choice. The real question is, why
did they dragged the women through
this? They lost in the High Court
and Court of Appeal. They say it is
about clarity for the bit is about
the police then they did not want
women like the victims of John
Worboys to have a legal right to
bring a case against the police
where victims of serious violent
crimes had faced serious
investigative failures which had
stopped people like John Worboys
coming to justice. Instead of years
of litigation funded by the
taxpayers the police should have
said, we will learn the lessons of
the failures make sure the victims
of violent, sexual offences are
protected in future and not cite the
legal niceties over a number of
years as they have done. Back is
Do you think
if police failed to thoroughly
investigate a serious crime they
have breached an individual's human
I think the speed of the
reaction from the Metropolitan
Police suggests they were expecting
that verdict. It is about subsequent
liabilities and that is what they
wanted to make perfectly clear.
There is a huge amount...
Now we are
clear. They are liable. They have to
carry out thorough investigations
into people's lane is when it is a
I think they
knew that in the first place. It is
penalties and sanctions that
followed. I would say,
notwithstanding what has happened
today, it still has been huge
progress made in the investigation
of sexual matters and this has gone
horribly wrong and no one will
defend it, I hope. There are more
and more people reporting these
crimes. I would encourage people to
continue doing that. Things have
moved on. I can go back 30, 40 years
went they were treated atrociously,
which they may have been treated
here was a marvellous moves have
been taken forward but it is more of
a multi-agency approach and medical
examinations so police have
confidence and report it.
accept that police have made
progress when it comes to
investigating serious sexual
Some progress has been
made and more progress needs to be
made. We need better investigations
and we need the women better looked
after. We need to see more
prosecutions and higher conviction
I read into the bottom of the
judgment will have to consider how
we balance resources against the
need to effectively investigate
certain crimes. Interesting. Thank
you very much will coming onto the
250 people have been killed in
Damascus in three days through
intense bombing. The area is eastern
Ghouta. It has been held by rebels.
It has been under siege for the last
five years. In 2013 its people were
subject to a chemical attack, which
the United Nations said constituted
a war crime. Hundreds were killed
and many more left seriously
injured. Now the relentless bombing
has been described as beyond
imagination with the UN calling on
world leaders to demand the Syrian
government immediately stops the
bombing. The UN has also issued a
blank statement, mostly blank,
hardly any words on it, because they
say there are no words to talk about
what is happening in eastern Ghouta.
Syria itself has been in civil war
for a total of seven years with no
sign of ending. These eastern Ghouta
residents describe life there.
missiles and the mortars are
dropping on ours like rain. There is
nowhere to hide from this nightmare
in eastern Ghouta. -- on us.
Those injured, taken to the
underground hospitals are taken now
Joining us now via phone
is Dr Bassam Bakri who is a doctor
working in Eastern Ghouta.
How do you help people's injured in
the conditions we have been talking
Hello everyone. You cannot
measure the situation in eastern
Ghouta now. Many of the injured
people, civilian people, we can't
treat all of them. Maybe you can
hear the voice of the air strike
now. The patients and injured people
on the waiting list are more than
We can deal with them.
I am going to interrupt you. So, I
can hear the occasional third. Is
that the sound of bombs falling?
Yes, yes. -- thud. Every minute we
have three or four air strikes. This
is the situation. It is catastrophic
in eastern Ghouta.
imagine that. How long have you been
It is about today,
maybe today, we're in the three
months in this attack. We have more
than maybe 2000 killed people, more
than ten times this number about
killed people is injured people.
You know we are under siege by Assad
regime more than five years, no
Sorry to interrupt
again, you have no medicine, do you
Do you have water?
No, no, we don't have. We have no
medicine, not enough medicine, no
anaesthetic medicine, no child
medicine, a be no milk for the
children. No morphine, no dialysis
applies. -- maybe no milk. You know
we are under besiegement. Most of
these items, we have a shortage on
this medicine, and maybe some of
You know that your president
says that this area is being
targeted, because rebels are
embedded amongst civilians, that
they are deliberately living amongst
the residents of Eastern Ghouta -
what do you say to your president?
You mean my president is a Cheryl
Assad? Yes. No, Bashar al-Assad is a
criminal, it is not our president.
The Syrian people want to withdraw
or overthrow this regime. It is not
our president. It is a criminal. He
killed people, he destroy
everything, he destroyed people,
destroyed our schools, destroyed our
hospitals. It's not from this
country, I think it's not... It's
not our president, of course. So, we
don't... We don't want this criminal
He is a survivor, though,
what can you do about him?
in this day, we are just dealing
with emergency to make this innocent
children and people and women stay
alive, just surviving... So, another
patient just we can take them on
waiting list. That's what we can do
now have. We don't have enough
For British people who are
watching you now, most of them will
have absolutely no idea how you
manage to live, to survive, for
seven years now, this war has been
going on - tell us about the
pressures on you as you try to stay
Yes, I want to stay alive, I
am people, I am human being, I have
a hard, I am scared. But I have to
stay here and help my people. We
have to build our future, build our
country, so we need your solidarity,
we need people, free people in the
world, to be solidarity with us, to
know that we are struggle to have
our freedom, our democracy. We have
to stay here and help our people.
So, we need to stay in our towns,
and here, my childhood hero, why
history here, my schools... I have
rights, hike everyone in this world
have rights. -- my childhood here.
So, we are killed, friends of Syrian
people maybe leave us to be killed
people but I don't know where is
friends of Syria people.
That is a
very good question, what do you say,
about the fact that the
international community has done
little or nothing to help people
international community just
watching, just watching our children
killed. Why? Why are you just
watching, where are you? We are poor
people. We are people need your
solidarity. Just leave your
interests one-time, one-time leave
your interests and deal with this
catastrophe. We are going by talk
towards famine. People maybe just
have a meal maybe in one-day.
Believe me, children have a meal in
one-day. And adults away in two days
have a meal. -- and adults maybe in
two days have a meal. I have only
breakfast in a day. We don't have
enough food. We don't have enough
food for people in shelters. People
in shelters in a bad way, bad
Thank you, we are
grateful for your time, we
appreciate you talking to us. A
doctor there, trapped on the
outskirts of Damascus in Eastern
Ghouta. This is a statement I wanted
to show you from Unicef, the aid
agency which is there to care for
children. It is mostly What have
they have written on the top is, no
words will do justice to the
children killed, their mothers
Huddlestone so far, their loved
ones. In the last few days 250
people have been killed in Eastern
Ghouta in Syria, and dozens of those
Women who've had their ovaries
or wombs removed to treat
endometriosis have been telling this
programme they are not receiving
Endometriosis is a condition
where the layer of tissue
that normally covers
the inside of the uterus
grows outside of it -
leaving women in debilitating pain.
The NHS won't freeze the eggs
of all women who have a hysterectomy
to treat the condition,
but does offer this to cancer
patients who have to undergo
the same operation.
It's left people with the condition
asking why they have less of a right
to children and to proper aftercare.
Last week actor Lena Dunham revealed
that she'd had a hysterectomy
to treat her endometriosis -
the pain of which she
said was unbearable.
176 million women
worldwide live with it.
Let's talk now to Clair Scrimshaw,
who had a hysterectomy but was not
offered the chance to have her eggs
frozen. Salina Akhtar has not had to
have a hysterectomy but sees
problems in the kind of care offered
to women. And Emma Cox is the CEO of
the charity Endometriosis UK. She
says there is a huge inequality in
care across the NHS. Welcome all of
you. Can you describe what it is and
how it affected you and from what
For me, endometriosis was
something I had never heard of until
I got diagnosed. My problems started
at 13 when I started my period to. I
would have extremely heavy bleeding,
extreme pain, so going up the stairs
for instance I would collapse
sometimes. Going to the toilet, just
normal, everyday things you take for
granted, I was in so much pain that
it was just ridiculous, I was taking
time off school. That followed
through into college and university
and work. However, it took me 11
years to get diagnosed.
Age to 24 by
Yes, I was. And by that point,
I mean, I was just so poorly with
it, and at that point, when I was
diagnosed, actually, firmly enough,
they told me I had endometriosis,
they said, we're going to give you a
course of injections for six months.
Off you go. They never explained
what it was. In my mind I thought it
was something similar to a cold,
something I could get rid of in
terms of having these injections.
So, nobody talked about potentially
a hysterectomy or it affecting your
No, nothing. As far as I
was concerned, it was just those six
But in the end it was a
number of operations culminating in
Yes. I had a total
of four surgeries for the
endometriosis, and breach was using
a kind of laser for the
endometriosis and the other two were
excision which is a deeper tissue
which they kind of cutaway. Which is
now the most standard treatment
because it actually gets further
down rather than just the
superficial endometriosis. But then
after that, I had another operation,
tubes removed, that was in October
20 16th and that did not work for me
and finally, July 2017, my 34th
birthday pretty much, I had a
And you asked about
harvesting expert or freezing eggs?
I did, there was a window of about a
month or so between me speaking to a
consultant at at you having a
hysterectomy, where they said, if
you want children it will cost you
£3500 to freeze your eggs. And I had
one week to make the decision.
for me... Why were they charging
Because at the time it was only
specifically cancer patient I think
who can get a free... I get a free
cycle of IVF for endometriosis but I
can't freeze my eggs for free.
Understood. And so... How do you
respond to that?
At the time, it was
quite stressful for me because I had
been on morphine for years by that
point. I take morphine every day and
codeine and seven other extreme
painkillers. It has been difficult
to work, so I have worked when I can
and had two operations and come away
from working. So, obviously,
financially, you're not particularly
Did you have £3500 to pay
for the harvesting and freezing of
No, I didn't. At the time, it
is more your primary kind of focus
is to get rid of the pain. So,
mentally I was not in the right
state of mind I don't think to even
consider the impact of not freezing
eggs. Because since I have had my
hysterectomy unfortunately my two
sisters have children and I do now
feel like I would like perhaps the
opportunity to have that experience.
But I don't...
Salina Akhtar, this
is why I think you want to make a
point about the inequality when it
comes to certain treatments, certain
Yep. I probably went
through a similar experience. After
my first surgery I thought I was
cured, I did not know it was a
lifelong issue. And I think I did
not even realise what was happening
until I started to feel unwell again
about two or three years later, and
I had to go back to my doctor, a
different GP because I had moved,
fight again to get to a
gynaecologist to get diagnosed
almost from scratch even though they
had my surgery on file. And at no
point along the way had I really
been told how it would affect my
And how has it?
have children, basically. Initially,
probably I had a bit of a nervous
breakdown, I will be honest. But I
am resolved to that now. But had I
been told at 25 when I first got
diagnosed that if you let this
condition progressed it can have
that effect, maybe at that age I
would have made a decision to have
babies earlier in life or whatever.
But when I was 30 I had another
surgery and then, I had to go... I
was with a partner at the time and
we went to have IVF and we found
that I could not have it on the NHS
because I was not old enough running
having the condition. So, we went
private. Only through doing that did
I find out that my body had gone
into premature menopause. So I
basically could not have children
without an egg donor anyway. But had
I known at 25 that there was a
possibility of any of this
happening, you think, actually,
maybe I would have had kids at 25,
you don't know.
You might have made
different decisions had you had the
Yeah. Carol, how
many gynaecologists did it take
before...? Sorry, it sounds like the
start of a bad joke. Before you were
diagnosed? My first gynaecologist
told me that my problems were due to
with stress and moving house. I
waited a year and saw another one,
finally operated and diagnosed
endometriosis and told me she had
fixed it. Which... I had never heard
of it before, either. When someone
tells you that they have fixed it,
you think they have. But my pain was
so much worse, and then I saw a
third gynaecologist and he found
endometriosis in my bowel and
bladder. Which, OK, it might be a
bit less common, but that is how it
was affecting me, I had
constipation, diarrhoea, I was
having pain all month not just with
my period. Painful intercourse
throughout my 20s, which was really
difficult to come to terms with. So
it really affected me very badly by
In terms of the practicalities of
your life now? What does it mean?
is really complicated, difficult
condition. I wish I had been
diagnosed earlier. I was 31 when I
was diagnosed. I have had the lower
part of my bowel removed and eight
bladder operations. I live with half
blood and out. I have had
endometriosis between my kidney and
bladder. I lived with a condition
called lymphoedema so my leg is
permanently swollen. In terms of
where I am now, I am 45 and probably
in better health than I have been
for a long time but I chose to have
a hysterectomy. I have a condition
which can occur alongside
endometriosis where cells actually
grow in the wall of the win. It is
really difficult because a
hysterectomy does not cure and
Demetrius is but for this other
condition it can make a really big
difference to our lives. --
We have heard here
where people have conditions where
they have to self catheterised. They
have had no follow-up. I know Selena
was being seen by two different
gynaecologist for two differing
conditions saying, ignore what the
other one is saying want you to take
these drugs. I am paraphrasing. I
think Claire, her first operation
was to have her ovaries removed and
a hysterectomy came a few months
later. She was told she could not
harvest eggs and in the NHS because
it is only endometriosis. If you are
having an operation if, whatever
reason you are having, it should not
matter the cause. There should be
pathways. With lymphoedema, if you
had the same operations as Carroll
quickly would be seen by a whole
range of consultants. We were
talking earlier with Claire Caligula
discharged straight on two hours and
you have had no follow-up. Only
found out that the months later you
should have been referred to the
menopause clinic and had HRT
therapy. I think there is an
inequality we need to make a
difference for these women.
of messages. Lindsay saying, I have
stayed four endometriosis. How many
stages are their quest to do know
there were stages at all.
two different ways of classifying
it. There are stages one to four. It
depends on where and how deep it is.
OK, thank you. I had many
misdiagnoses between the ages of ten
and 28 and it has completely ruined
my life. I lost my job of eight
years and have had to take morphine
every day during the four years. It
is a horrific illness which takes
far too long to diagnose and doctors
do not seem to know too much about
it or believe us when they say how
much pain they are in. There is no
cure. Thank you for bringing this
issue onto your programme. Jean
said, I had endometrial softer
suffering a really bad pain which
included painful sex and bad
bleeding. On occasions this
prevented me from going to work. I
visited my GP many times and decided
I had my appendix removed, which
happened. It was not until I had an
early hysterectomy that
endometriosis was diagnosed. Thank
you very much. Thank you for
talking. I really appreciate it.
Hopefully it will make a difference.
Still to come.
We will hear a story about an honour
killing. We will also discuss
homeless people being trapped into
modern day slavery and find out what
we can do to stop it.
Time for the latest news.
The Metropolitan Police has lost its
Supreme Court challenge over the
victims of John Worboys. The women
say the treatment by police calls
the mental harm. The Supreme Court
unanimously dismissed the appeal
from the police. The women are also
separately pursuing a judicial
review of the parole board decision
to release John Worboys. The United
Nations has urged world leaders to
push for an end to the bombardment
of eastern Ghouta. The UN said
400,000 people were living in
unimaginable conditions. UK
unemployment has increased slightly
for the first time in two nears. The
number of unemployed people rose by
36,000 to 1.47 million for the final
quarter of Austria, compared to the
previous three months. Despite the
fighting crease in the rate of
unemployment, the total number of
people in work rose by 80 8000. --
the increasing rate. Dua Lipa is
leading the way to the highest
number of nominations are given to a
female artist. She had a number one,
the 21-year-old, and is heading to
21,000 sales with her debut album.
That is a summary of the BBC News.
More messages from you regarding
Fiona, the woman respect with
beginning of the programme, one of
two woman taking a case to the
Supreme Court against the metabolic
and police. The two women one. They
argued their case. -- the
Metropolitan Police. This just
The person who attacked me had done
it several times but nothing has
ever been brought against them. I
feel betrayed by the justice system.
This text... Listening to Fiona, I
totally feel her pain in having the
shock of seeing John Worboys in
court. As a victim of sexual assault
14 years ago and where I did not go
to the police I saw the person in a
supermarket out of the blue.
Mercedes said, and goodness the
Supreme Court has made the right
decision. As a former police officer
I am ashamed of the way this case
was handled by the Met. Fiona,
outside the Supreme Court, known in
court as DST, said, on reacting to
the judgment, it has been an
emotional day, 15 years. Referring
to the police can she added, had you
done your job properly, there would
not have been 105 victims were there
would have been won. I could have
taken the one but not the 105.
We are going to introduce you to
this robot. We will show you how he
mimics the facial expressions of
people like me in order to help
teach autistic children how to learn
emotion. Absolutely fascinating. I
was going to say we will talk to him
before 11. We're not going to do
that but we are going to talk about
it before 11. Now the sport.
Another busy day at the Winter
Team GB's Women's curling team has
reach the semi finals.
They came through a very
against the defending champions
Canada, snatching the win with two
points on the final end.
The 6-5 win for Team GB also means
the Canadians are knocked out -
failing to reach the semi-finals
for the first time.
Things were very very
different for Team GB's men -
as the United States scored 4 points
in the eighth end to hand Britain
a crushing 10-4 defeat.
That means GB have a Play-off
on the way against Switzerland,
From the ice to the snow -
Billy Morgan is into the final
of the inaugural Big Air competition
- scoring 90.5 on his second run.
Lionel Messi's late strike denied
Chelsea going into the next round
against Barcelona. More sport after
Drones turned into missiles. Fake
videos manipulating public opinion
and automated hacking. The malicious
use of artificial intelligence
report is warning that AI is ripe
for exploitation by rogue states and
terrorists. More is needed to be
done to mitigate possible misuses of
technology. Let's talk about the
risks and the positives. One
today's port is a doctor who is
here. Sarah Ben at is also here. On
our table is the robot. We have a
doctor from UCL's Institute of
education. You study risk for a
living. What are the long-term risks
imposed by gases proposed by AI? --
proposed by AI? We could go as far
as human extinction. That sounds
No human beings left.
There have been various
conversations about long-term with
artificial intelligence and machines
which can perform better than humans
and the risks that they might pose
this is not what this report is
about what it looks at the that we
have now in the next five years and
how they might be misused by hackers
with malicious intent to cause harm.
That is something I have mentioned
in the introduction. I am fascinated
about how we go from that to human
So... I must say I
haven't prepared that this is
something I do talk about quite a
Do me to come back to you.
principle, we are making machines
that can think. It is proving
extremely difficult. Five years ago
you could not have a computer that
tells apart a cat from a dog. The
fact we can do so now brings about
risks in the near Temple submitted
how long will take until we have
computers he can do everything that
humans can do. -- in the near-term
but we do not know how long it will
take. If you can do everything a
human can do, you can do much more
than a human can do. If we make such
systems were not shown we are in
control of the more that they want
what we want, we might end up in a
world where are the kind of world we
have wanted to create is not one we
want to inhabit and we will not be
in a position to stay there. They
would kill us all? Create an
environment in which we could not
How worried are you? To be
honest, not as worried as perhaps
the initial discussion might
suggest. We certainly nowhere near
having machines that can in any way
think for themselves, we don't have
sent a unique beings. One thing
technology struggles with is past
transfer. They are based on data we
are feeding them. We are very much
in control of this technology and it
is not something we see making its
completely its own decisions. Not
yet. Not yet. For now, I feeling
fairly calm about it and in control.
You advise companies on robotics and
AI. Can you give us some real-life
Certainly do if I can just
respond. What we should not ignore
is the fact that our protection
systems, we also become cleverer.
The same technology, artificial
intelligence, that creates the
potential for all the harm
highlighted by the report will also
enable us to have better protection
systems. I just wanted to make sure
and provide a balanced view...
are people working on developing
protection systems right now.
give you an example. 10/20 years
ago, we did not have a virus
checkers. As viruses became
unleashed on world companies propped
up -- popped up to develop virus
checkers and protection for computer
systems. Cyber security will get a
lot more enhanced because of
artificial intelligence. To tell you
about examples of where AI is being
used effectively it is being used by
businesses do is being used by
businesses to speed up business
processes. For example, you might
hear of a train company here in the
UK that is handling its customer
complaints, using AI for that, and
they are getting refunds for
customers processed much more
Is it like an enhanced
It literally mimics human
processes where you need to make the
judgment. It mimics that. Documents
coming the claims come in.
for the important points.
what? AI. What does it look like?
piece of software. She says
disappointedly. Back enough. We also
wanted to talk about some of the
incredible things which robots are
getting involved in, and AI. Dr
Alyssa Alcorn, how are we using this
I am part of a project which
is looking at using this robot as a
teaching tool for young children on
the autism spectrum to learn about
So, we're going to show
how it works. Let's hope this works.
Never work with children, animals or
robots! So, Zeno is going to mimic
the expressions on my face, and I'm
told they have to be rather a judge
So, as Victoria is making an
expression, the camera here...
is my shocked face!
I am very
convinced! So, the camera here is
tracking 49 facial landmarks on your
face and effectively using them like
instructions, telling the motors in
the robots face what to do.
He is turning his head
as you turn your head - try and
I am never angry, this
will be very hard!
He's doing his
best there. Maybe you just don't
look angry enough!
Life is good at
the moment! So, really, really
He looks pretty happy, too,
there. So, we're interested in using
this very early on in teaching
children on the autism spectrum
about emotions, because they might
not pay attention to faces.
all of those expressions, not that
interesting, but seeing a robot
would have an impact on a child on
the autistic spectrum?
meeting the robot will probably not
have an impact, we're talking about
a teaching programme over a longer
period. But it is thought that
children on the spectrum might be
more comfortable interacting with a
robot, because it is a simpler than
a person. We can programme the robot
to only give a limited range of
social cues at one time, and to make
him be able to repeat those in
exactly the same way over and over.
People are a lot less consistent,
they can be much more confusing. So
it is thought that that might lower
the demand of the interruption on
the child, so they can maybe get
more out of the learning experience
- that's one of the things we want
to test in this project, is if that
seems to be true.
Thank you very
much. Really interesting. And thank
you to Zeno. I cannot believe I am
thanking a robot, but this is what
the world is going to be about!
Thank you all of you are coming on
the programme. At 11 o'clock we're
going to bring you more reaction to
the Supreme Court ruling handed down
today in the case of two women who
were arguing that the Met Police
failed to investigate their claims
that they were raped by the black
cab driver John Worboys. The cases
weren't thoroughly investigated,
that's what they were arguing. They
have won is mourning. And the
Metropolitan Police have lost just
more reaction to that after 11. --
they have won this morning.
In July 2016, Samia Shahid was raped
and murdered during a visit
to see family in Pakistan.
The 28-year-old from Bradford had
been living in Dubai with her second
husband after her first arranged
marriage to her cousin broke down.
Her decision to divorce and re-marry
for love caused a huge
rift with her family.
As this actor, speaking the words of
four I's best friend in the UK,
From her parents' point of
view they were doing the right thing
by her. My mum and dad are Pakistani
but I'm not. I'm from the UK. How
could I change all of a sudden? How
can I be the villager from back
home? He knew she didn't want to
marry him so why couldn't he have
been the bigger person and say, you
know what, she doesn't want to spend
the rest of her life with you, why
should I marry you? He could have
helped her, here's how cars in, he
has known her since they were kids.
-- he is her cars in.
Desperate to try and resolve
the fallout she flew out
to Pakistan, despite fears
for her safety.
Six days into her trip,
Samia's father called the police
and said she'd had a heart attack
and was lying dead at
bottom of the stairs.
She was buried within a day,
but the story didn't stack up
for Samia's second husband,
and her friends in the UK.
They became suspicious and began
a quest for the truth,
Now, for the first time,
Samia's second husband,
Mukhtar has spoken about her murder
in a new BBC documentary.
Here he talks about why his wife
decided to make that fateful trip.
I get a call from the cousin asking
about Samia, and he told me that her
aunt, which was her
ex-mother-in-law, she passed away.
She was really in shock.
loved her auntie.
There is no denial
about that, she cried a lot when she
died. She wanted to go to Pakistan
after that and we had this
discussion why she shouldn't go to
Pakistan. And then, after a few
weeks, she started getting these
emotional dialogue! From the family,
the father is not well, he is going
to pass away any time, you need to
come. Things might happen to the
We're going to talk now to Bradford
MP Naz Shah, who wrote
to the Prime Minister of Pakistan
immediately after Samia's death,
describing the case as an "honour
killing" and calling
for an investigation.
How did you first hear about Samia?
I had a lady calling the, a
constituent who rang me on the
Friday after her death and said to
me, can you support me? And if you
can't will you signpost me, I know
this girl has been murdered, can you
help us? That is how I got involved.
And what did you learn about what
could have happened to her?
originally, in the community, it
was, she had an asthma attack, she
had a heart attack. And as I started
speaking to her friends, and people
who knew her, they all said very,
very clearly, this girl married out
of her own choice and she was taken
to Pakistan, there were lots of
police involvement previously when
she decided to marry the cousin out
of her own choice and leave her
first husband, and to me it had the
hallmarks of a so-called "honour
killing". That was the minute I
heard about it.
And she herself, we
can see the messages, she was
worried about going to Pakistan, she
said she had not had reassurances
but she desperately wanted to go to
see her sick relative?
She was told
to go and see her father who was
ill, her cousin who wanted her to
go. I have read the messages I have
seen the screenshots of him saying,
come home if he was panicked every
time he did not hear from her... And
the last message was just after 12
o'clock and after that we did not
hear from her. And the next thing we
knew she had been murdered.
we take from this horrific case?
Well, there's a few things. For
Samia's legacy we really, really
need to get justice. Although her
father passed away last month, I
think it was, we still have an
ex-husband who is charged with her
rape and her murder who is in
custody in Pakistan. The court case
is going to be transferred, because
a police officer was done for
corruption in this case as well, so
it was really, really important to
get political and media pressure in
Pakistan and the Guardian played a
huge role in Britain to highlight
its. But also legally speaking, we
have got the new ample domestic
violence abuse bill coming through
an end that we hope there will be
new powers which will mean that if
we have another case, where a Samia
is going to Pakistan and is murdered
in India or Pakistan or wherever,
then our police force can start
asking questions, and that is really
important, because it sends out the
message, you cannot take one of our
British children abroad and think
you can kill them and get away with
Thank you very much.
You can watch Murdered for Love?
Samia Shahid, tonight
at 9pm on BBC Two.
The epidemic of violent knife crime
in London has claimed
two more fatalities.
Both were stabbed to death last
night in Kentish Town,
in the north of the city.
It brings the number
of people stabbed to death
in the capital since the beginning
of the year to 16.
BBC London's reporter Greg McKenzie
is on the scene of one
of last night's incidents.
Police were called to Malden Road
just after ten o'clock last night,
with reports of a man believed to be
in his 20s who had suffered from
staff wounds. When they arrived they
pronounced him dead here at the
scene. An hour and a half before
that incident here on Malden Road
just behind me, there was a separate
stabbing, a teenager was stabbed on
Bartholomew Road. That is about
15-20 minutes from this location
by-footer. It is believed he was a
teenager, and local residents have
said -- on foot -- that they saw the
mother of the teenager being
comforted by the police. She was in
an emotional state and taken to a
local community centre. It was there
where family members gathered and a
number of police community officers
were talking to the family and local
residents on the estate, saying
they're shocked and saddened about
what has happened but say this is a
reality of living in this area.
Earlier in the programme,
we brought you the story of how
hundreds of Britain's homeless
are being trapped
into modern slavery.
We can speak a bit about this now.
There are many people trapped into
modern slavery despite the act?
There, we have been aware of this
for some time, we have been
commissioned to do some work on, we
have found out, of the six D1
organisations that we surveyed,
about 64% had had experience of
this. So it is a huge issue on the
ground and with the rise in rough
sleeping, the latest figures show a
159% rise in both sleeping on the
streets since 2010. There is a huge
amount of people there to be preyed
Caroline Haughey, why is this
happening run in the introduction of
the legislation with the Modern
People have an
expectation to go and get their car
washed for £4, and we as a society
are encouraging it because we want
more for less. When people want more
for less, people who are vulnerable,
weather it the alcohol, mental
health, financial, then they are the
ones who are going to be exploited.
If you don't have a home, and
somebody offers you a roof over your
head, even though you probably know
it is not going to be on great Toms,
it is the least worst alternative.
take your point about people wanting
a car wash for £4, but who is
supposed to enforce this
legislation, us, the police?
Actually it is not about enforcing
the legislation, the legislation is
being enforced, we're seeing raids
happened, we are seeing a leasing
attitude change and we are seeing
prosecutions on the increase. I
think it has got to be education,
health care, social services, the
police have to keep stepping up to
the mark as well.
But I think we all
have to be involved in trying to
help our fellow man for the better.
Thank you. Mick Clarke and Caroline
Haughey, thank you.