21/02/2018 Victoria Derbyshire


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21/02/2018

Daily news and current affairs programme, including the dark side of artificial intelligence. Plus Victoria talks to a victim of the black cab rapist John Worboys.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello.

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It's Wednesday, it's 9 o'clock.

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I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

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Welcome to the programme.

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Our top story today...

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The United Nations in Syria says

it's deeply worried for hundreds

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of thousands of people trapped under

a mounting government bombardment

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of the rebel-held enclave of Eastern

Ghouta.

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We can hear the shouts and crying of

women. And children.

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We'll hear more from people

stuck on the ground.

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The Supreme Court will rule about

John Worboys. We have been speaking

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exclusively to

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one of the victims.

I am not worried

about what he will do to me that I

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don't want to go back to 2003 and be

watching the news again waiting for

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him to reoffend. I know he will

reoffend full I don't want to be in

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that position where I will say, I

was right because he will absolutely

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do it again.

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That full exclusive interview

in the next 15 minutes.

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Security experts are warning the

Government needs to tackle the

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misuse of artificial intelligence.

They will tell us exactly what they

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think that risk is and we will

introduce you to the robot who is

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designed to mimic facial expressions

in order to teach autistic children

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about emotions.

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Hello.

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Welcome to the programme.

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We're live until 11 this morning.

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Throughout the morning,

the latest breaking news

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and developing stories.

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A little later we'll hear

about the devastating impact

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endometreosis has on women

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and hear claims that the NHS

is failing in their care.

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If you have endometrosis,

tell us your experience.

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Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and,

if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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Our top story. The bombardment of

rebel-held eastern Ghouta has

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continued for a third day. There are

warnings of a second Aleppo. Reports

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that 250 people have died following

two days of attacks. According to

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activists it is the worst violence

since 2013. Our middle east editor

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reports.

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This could be the beginning

of the end of the rebellion.

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Smaller, rebel-held

enclaves around Damascus

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have been starved and

bombed into submission.

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Activists in eastern Ghouta say this

is as bad as it has been.

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We can hear women and

children crying through

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windows of their homes.

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The missiles and mortars

dropping on us like rain.

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There is nowhere to hide from this

nightmare in easter Ghouta.

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They have set up a network

of underground hospitals.

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This girl, named in Arabic Angel,

escaped the worst but will have

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to go back to the streets

to get home.

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And this is her area.

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With the regime plane dropping

what appears to be a barrel bomb.

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Unguided, an indiscriminate killer.

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The Syrian regime denies

attacking civilians.

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It says it is trying to liberate

eastern Ghouta from terrorists.

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How many times in the last seven

years have Syrians dug

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through the rubble for survivors?

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There is talk of safe corridors

out for civilians but,

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based on past form, the regime wants

victory in eastern Ghouta

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and the surrender of the rebels.

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Let's talk to our BBC Arabic

reporter, who is here. Presumably

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the authorities and aid agencies are

expecting the civilian casualties to

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continue to rise.

Yes. It is

practically enclaves and pockets of

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high density, civilian population.

It seems like the ones launching

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this attack has not taken into

consideration any thing to basically

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minimise at least the number of

civilian casualties. We know the

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gunman, they are basically civilians

and live among civilians. It is not

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a way to do this was of your risking

the lives of hundreds and thousands

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of people. That is why we believe

the number will be huge if the

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Russians attempt a similar scenario

in Ghouta as we saw in Aleppo over a

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year ago full it is completely out

of proportion, the firepower the

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Russians are exerting on those

pockets and enclaves. It is amazing

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and horrible. As if you are watching

a movie on the back of the

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soundtrack. You hear people in

panic, screaming for help. There is

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no help. Their attacks, you name it.

The last 48 hours or few days, they

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have been days from hell for the

population of East Ghouta.

Thank you

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very much. Thank you for talking to

us will stop

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Annita is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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The Supreme Court is due to rule

on whether the Metropolitan

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Police failed two victims of

the black cab rapist, John Worboys.

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The women claim that the failure

to properly investigate

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their allegations amounted

to inhuman and degrading treatment -

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a claim the police deny.

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Here's our legal

correspondent, Clive Coleman.

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The two women were sexually

assaulted by John Worboys in 2003

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and 2007, but when they reported

the attacks to the police

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they weren't believed.

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As a result of the police failures,

Worboys was able to continue

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to attack women until he was brought

to justice in 2009.

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The High Court and Court of Appeal

ruled the police had a duty under

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the Human Rights Act to investigate

serious violence against women

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and could be held accountable

in the courts if they

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failed in that duty.

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The women, who both suffered

psychologically, were awarded

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£41,000 in total, which they'll

keep in any event.

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But the Met supported the then

Home Secretary Theresa May's

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appeal to the Supreme Court,

arguing its duty was fulfilled

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simply by having practices and

procedures to investigate in place.

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A victory for the women would be

police forces could face human

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rights actions whenever they fail

to properly investigate

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serious violent crime.

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and we will be speaking exclusively

to one of the women involved in the

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case

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in a few minutes' time. It has

emerged that a former chief

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Executive of Save the Children faced

inappropriate behaviour complaints

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before leaving the charity. He was

accused of sending inappropriate

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text and commenting on what young

female staff were wearing. He said

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he apologised to the workers. It

comes as Oxfam and Save the Children

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have been separate quizzed about

sexual misconduct for workers.

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Brexit supporting MPs have written

to the Prime Minister stating what

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they consider it should be achieved

out of a deal with Brussels. They

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insist Britain should be free to

negotiate deals with other countries

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as soon as it leaves the EU. Let's

talk about this with Norman

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Smith at Westminster. Good morning

to you. Tell us about the detail and

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the reaction.

This letter has been

sent as a clear warning ahead of the

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crucial meeting tomorrow when she

will try to end the splits in the P

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net over Brexit and reach a final

agreement. The letter is written in

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consider tree language and the

signatories express support for Mrs

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May and be approachable Brexit. They

list what they call six suggestions,

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things like not taking on any new EU

rules during the so-called

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transition period, that we should be

free to negotiate & our own trade

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deals, and they also suggest that

Mrs May should go into these

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negotiations as an equal partner and

should not accept the EU timeline

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and their mandate, and get the sense

they are trying to make sure that

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Mrs May does not backslide on their

preferred approach to Brexit. It has

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already provoked over backlash from

Tory Brexit critics who described

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the signatories to this letter as

ideological obsessives. As for

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Downing Street, they have said they

welcome contributions from all

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sections of the party.

Thank you

very much.

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The majority of small

and medium-sized companies

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are still paying male employees more

than their female colleagues,

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according to the latest

government figures.

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Just 15% of businesses have a higher

wage bill for women.

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Companies have six weeks left

to report their gender pay gap.

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So far almost 1,000

businesses have responded

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out of the 9,000 asked.

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Security experts have warned of the

risk of artificial intelligence

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being exploited by rogue states were

criminals and terrorists. The report

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warns of scenarios like drones using

face recognition to attack

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individuals and hackers manipulating

autonomous cars. The authors say

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designers need to do more to prevent

possible misuse

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of the technology. The Brit Awards

take place this evening at London's

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O2 Arena. Dua Lipa has the highest

number of nominations ever given to

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a female artist. She is heading

towards 200,000 sales with her self

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titled debut album.

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That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

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More at 9:30am.

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We will bring you an exclusive

interview where buy a woman raped by

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John Worboys she'll be arguing the

Metropolitan Police failed her

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because they did not investigate her

case properly. She went to the

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police back in 2003. In fact, John

ten -- John Worboys drove her then.

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning.

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Let's get some sport

with Hugh.

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Hugh, we start in South Korea.

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We always get entranced

by the curling competition

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and there's some good

news for Team GB.

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Yes, good morning. Some very good

news for Team GB. The tournament

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lasts virtually the entire winter

Olympics. The final round matches

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work today and victory for Team GB.

The very good one indeed over the

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defending champions Canada means

they have reached the semifinals.

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They were trailing by a couple of

points going into the final few

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ends. They secured two points on the

final end to snatch a 6-5 victory.

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It knocks the defending champions

out of the competition, so we could

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be looking at a potential medal on

the way for Eve Muirhead and the

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team.

A very good win for them and

their plans. Delighted. We knew it

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would be a really tough game against

Canada. To book our spot in the

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semifinal, it is our first goal and

we are delighted with that.

How

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about the jump in the air question

we saw you leaving the eyes.

I

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cannot actually remember it. You are

in that zone quickly forget about

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the small things. I am glad I

learned safe on my feet.

No laughing

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matter for the Team GB men.

Unfortunately they were beaten,

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crashed 10-4 in the game against the

United States. That means the

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captain and his team will have a

play-off to see if they can reach

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the final four. That would be

against Switzerland just after

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midnight.

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From the ice, to the snow.

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Billy Morgan must get a mention -

it's the first time the Big Air

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competition has been held,

and he is into the final -

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scoring 87.5 and then

90.5 on his second run.

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Seven points off the top score.

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He'll have to push his

tricks a bit further.

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That final will be in the early

hours of Saturday morning. And

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Lionel Messi finally got his header

against Chelsea last night?

Yes, he

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did.

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The five-time Ballon D'Or winner

hadn't scored in nine

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Champions League games

against Chelsea, but all of that

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changed in an intriguing last 16

first leg tie at Stamford Bridge.

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Messi and his teammates are top

of the Spanish top division

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and largely controlled things.

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But the clearest chances

on the night went to Chelsea -

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Willian had hit the post twice

before making it third time lucky.

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But you can't give Messi this

sort of opportunity -

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a misplaced pass allowing

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Andres Iniesta to play

in the Argentine forward

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for a crucial away goal.

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The match ending 1-1.

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Despite having just 27%

possession on the night -

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Chelsea boss Antonio Conte said

it was almost "the perfect

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performance" and that they'll

"try to do something incredible"

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by knocking out the Spanish giants

in a few weeks at the Nou Camp.

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When two women were raped

by the same man four years apart,

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the police didn't believe either

of their stories.

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That man was John Worboys,

the black cab rapist,

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who was later convicted on 19

charges, including rape

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and sexual assault.

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Police now believe he may have

attacked over 100 people.

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This morning, the Supreme Court

will rule on whether

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the Metropolitan Police is liable

to those two victims

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because it failed to properly

investigate their allegations.

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The two women were assaulted

by Worboys in 2003 and 2007.

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As a result of the police failures,

Worboys was able to continue

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to attack women until he was brought

to justice in 2009.

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Two courts have already

ruled in their favour,

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but the Metropolitan Police,

backed by the Home

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Office, have appealed.

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A victory for the women

today would mean police

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forces could face human

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rights actions whenever they fail

to properly investigate

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serious violent crime.

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In a moment, we'll speak

exclusively to one of those

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women and her solicitor -

the conversation as you'd expect

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is graphic and frank in places,

and you nay not want young

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children to watch.

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children to watch or listen.

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But first here's a look at why

today's ruling is important -

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there are some flashing

images coming up.

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He is one of Britain's worst serial

sex attacker is. He has been found

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guilty of 19 offences against 12

women. -- attackers. But police say

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the number of women he attacked me

run into the hundreds. His name is

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John Worboys. He would drive around

London in his black late at night

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aching up winning. He would tell

them lies about winning the lottery

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so that he had a reason to offer

champagne. -- picking up women. He

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would then drug and sexually assault

them. Occurs of the sedatives he

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used, many of the victims would have

had no recollection of what

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happened. He was caught and jailed

in 2009 but a parole board decided

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he could be eligible for release

last month. It caused outrage, with

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many victims finding about his

impending release in the press.

The

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growing criticism of the Parole

Board's decision to release serial

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sex attacker John Worboys...

A few

years previously two victims of John

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Worboys won a case against the

Metropolitan Police about the way

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they investigated the case. The two

women said that when they reported

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the case to the police in 2003 and

2007, officers did not believe them

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and so did not investigate properly.

The Metropolitan Police had several

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opportunities to apprehend and stop

him and didn't. In one case he was

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so confident of getting away with

his crimes that he actually drove

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his victim to the police station and

dropped her off there. Officers took

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neither his name nor his rigid

racial details.

The two women

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brought their case against the

police. A Court of Appeal upheld the

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verdict but the Met has taken the

case to the Supreme Court. The

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result will be important in deciding

weather the police can be held to

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account for breaching victims'

rights.

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And we can exclusively speak to one

of those women you just heard about,

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who was driven to a police station

by John Worboys after

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he'd attacked her.

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We are going to call her

Fiona this morning -

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not her real name -

and she's joined by her

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solicitor Harriet Wistritch.

0:19:100:19:14

Thank you for talking to us. How did

you come into contact with Worboys?

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In 2003I was out with some friends

are celebrating a friend's birthday

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party. After the night out, I was

with some groups of friends who

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hailed a cab for me. I got into the.

-- in to the cab. There was nothing

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which made me feel uncomfortable or

threatened by his manner, he was

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just a chatty, talking about the

night out, asking where I lived, did

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I live on my own, asking about my

family. I was expecting to him it

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was my friend's birthday party. And

I had just had a baby so that was

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the first night out since having the

baby, who was with my partner that

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night. And then he offered me a

drink.

What kind of a drink?

Well,

0:20:010:20:07

it was just... It was just a

really... I Remoaner taking a sip

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out of it, it was a really strong

orange liqueur, it wasn't very nice

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at all. I didn't particularly want

it because at that point of the

0:20:150:20:19

night I was going home because I had

to be up early in the morning and I

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really didn't want to drink any

more, I had stopped drinking some

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time before. And we went over a

speed bump and I did spill

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practically all the drink over

myself, apologised but he pulled me

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another one. And I really can't

explain why I drank the drink but I

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think it was just one of those

situations where you just feel, just

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print it. It's just a drink, it will

be fine, he can take me home. --

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just drink it. And then there was

some conversation about him is

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stopping for a cigarette or

something. And did I want to have a

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cigarette? I might even have asked

him, is it OK if I smoked ham and

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because I think in 2003 we did smoke

in. And he pulled over and I

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remember him getting into the back

of the cab with me. And I remember

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him putting his... I think he went

to put his arm around me and I just

0:21:120:21:16

remember, before I blacked out, just

saying he was nice. Which are sort

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of creep me out a little bit because

I just wondered if I had somehow

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encouraged him by saying that. I

think I was just meaning, you're a

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nice guy because you've just given

me a cigarette or something. It

0:21:280:21:31

wasn't intended to be anything other

than that. And the next memory I

0:21:310:21:37

have is waking up in hospital.

That's when you woke up and thought,

0:21:370:21:43

what on earth happened?

Yeah. I woke

up and I was very confused, very

0:21:430:21:53

disorientated and I had a drip in my

almond I pulled the drip out and

0:21:530:21:57

went to the toilet. I think I was

having a bit of a meltdown. Looking

0:21:570:22:03

back on it it was a bit embarrassing

because I think I was running around

0:22:030:22:07

shouting at the nurses, I don't know

where I am, where am I? They didn't

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realise what I meant and they kept

saying, you're in hospital. I was

0:22:110:22:15

like I know I am in hospital but

where? I didn't know which hospital

0:22:150:22:19

I was in and I was really upset

because I should have been home

0:22:190:22:22

looking after my baby.

Did you know

you'd been raped?

As soon as I sat

0:22:220:22:26

on the toilet I knew I had been

raped. I was a little bit sore

0:22:260:22:30

and... And when I went to the toilet

the tampon that I was wearing fell

0:22:300:22:37

out, and I knew instantly because of

the way I was. The nurse was trying

0:22:370:22:43

to calm me down and I kept saying, I

need... I need to speak to the

0:22:430:22:48

police, I've been raped. And I do

remember one of the nurses saying,

0:22:480:22:51

it's fine, come and sit down, the

police are on their way. I don't

0:22:510:22:55

know to this day where she got this

from, how she knew.

But what you

0:22:550:23:00

learned subsequently was that

actually Worboys had driven you to a

0:23:000:23:03

police nation after he had raped

you.

Yes.

And when you arrived at

0:23:030:23:11

the police station, according to to

what has been heard in court

0:23:110:23:15

previously, you were incapacitated,

you were disorientated, you were

0:23:150:23:17

vomiting. How did the police treat

you?

Well, they assumed that I was

0:23:170:23:26

just some drunk that night. .

And

did they take his details?

Well,

0:23:260:23:32

this is the thing, I was given three

different stories of what happened

0:23:320:23:36

that night by the police. And that

was all within the space of a couple

0:23:360:23:41

of hours. First of all I was told

they had his details, because when

0:23:410:23:44

the police came to the hospital, I

told them what had happened to me.

0:23:440:23:50

And I think they told me that he

taken me to the police station. And

0:23:500:23:56

I said, well, did you get his

details? They went, yes, of course,

0:23:560:24:01

we've got his details, and I was

relieved. Because I knew it was him.

0:24:010:24:05

And they assured me they had all of

his details, his name, cab number,

0:24:050:24:09

everything. And then a little bit

later, I was told that he had given

0:24:090:24:14

false details, so I was... Well,

that proves that he had something to

0:24:140:24:22

hide, then. And then quite quickly

after that it turned out that they

0:24:220:24:27

had no details for him, nobody had

bothered to ask, because hit told

0:24:270:24:34

them that I was in that state when

he had picked me up. Although I was

0:24:340:24:39

told afterwards by the other person

that had encouraged... That he was

0:24:390:24:45

arguing with Worboys in front of the

police, saying, that lady isn't just

0:24:450:24:50

drunk, it's clear she's not just

drunk, and a black cab driver does

0:24:500:24:55

not pick up fares in that state.

What do you think of the fact that

0:24:550:24:58

after he attacked you in the back of

his cab, he then had the arrogance,

0:24:580:25:06

audacity, to take you to a police

station?

I don't think that was ever

0:25:060:25:09

his choice of. I think that was

because he took me to the wrong

0:25:090:25:12

address, and the involvement of that

other person. I think Howard... I do

0:25:120:25:20

believe that had that other person

not been in the property, I would

0:25:200:25:23

have been dumped near the property

in the alleyway at the back, because

0:25:230:25:27

I don't think he ever would have

taken me to the police station.

Had

0:25:270:25:34

the police taking his details, they

might have realised... The way the

0:25:340:25:41

police handled your complaint,

you've already said they treated you

0:25:410:25:44

as a drunk that night - after that?

Well, I thought, when I was taken to

0:25:440:25:54

Telford, it seemed to be ticking all

the right boxes and I felt that

0:25:540:25:58

things were being dealt with as they

should be. -- Ilford. But when I

0:25:580:26:06

came home from two big that

afternoon, after being examined,

0:26:060:26:09

which is actually quite a stressful

situation, it is not a nice thing to

0:26:090:26:14

have to happen to you, to be dropped

off and left with a baby while they

0:26:140:26:20

take your partner into the police

station for, just to give a

0:26:200:26:26

statement, and he's gone for two

hours and you're left, still

0:26:260:26:31

disorientated, still under the

influence of whatever drugs he's

0:26:310:26:33

given, extremely upset, and

emotional, to look after a baby on

0:26:330:26:40

your own, I did feel that was very

inappropriate. I felt I should have

0:26:400:26:46

had a little bit of of support there

or the option of calling a friend or

0:26:460:26:50

somebody to be with me, because I

just remember phoning their partner

0:26:500:26:55

constantly to say, how long are you

going to be? Because the baby is

0:26:550:27:00

crying. And at that point I felt I

could not pick him up and comfort

0:27:000:27:04

him, because I just felt I was not

capable of doing that because I was

0:27:040:27:07

very upset and I didn't want to be

around him while I was that upset.

0:27:070:27:11

Ultimately the police did not

believe you had been attacked?

No.

0:27:110:27:18

You gave evidence on video, and one

of the things which was said was

0:27:180:27:24

that you weren't a credible witness

- they didn't believe you?

Yep. I

0:27:240:27:29

was told two days later, when I was

picked up, because I think you have

0:27:290:27:34

to do the video evidence within 48

hours, and they picked me up from my

0:27:340:27:39

partner Schiele is flat, and as we

were driving down to the police

0:27:390:27:41

station, I was told by the officers

in the police car that this was

0:27:410:27:49

really important book that it was as

factual as possible, and to try and

0:27:490:27:55

women are as much as I could. It

would be shown in court if it went

0:27:550:27:59

to prosecution. Therefore, emotions

just confuse everybody, you've got

0:27:590:28:05

to be as concise as you possibly

can. So, the way I've always spoken

0:28:050:28:11

about what happened that night is

the way I am talking to you I detach

0:28:110:28:15

myself, because otherwise I do get

upset. So, I'm talking about it as

0:28:150:28:20

if it's a story that happened to

somebody else. And they were very

0:28:200:28:25

clear in the police car that that's

what they needed, so I thought, OK,

0:28:250:28:29

I'll try my best here, put a brave

face on it, so I went in and told

0:28:290:28:33

them all the facts that I could

remember, and tried to keep it

0:28:330:28:37

together. And then halfway through

the interview, the officer left the

0:28:370:28:42

room, his colleagues were in the

room next door filming. He was gone

0:28:420:28:46

for a few minutes and he came back

and sat down and he said, to be

0:28:460:28:52

honest, I've interviewed quite a few

raped victims and you're not

0:28:520:28:55

believable. He said, most victims

would be crying, shouting,

0:28:550:28:59

screaming, even throwing things

around, and you're sitting there as

0:28:590:29:02

calm as anything. He said, you're

not coming across as believable.

0:29:020:29:07

What impact did that have on you

then and over the subsequent years?

0:29:070:29:12

Well, identity to explain to him

what had happened on the way there,

0:29:120:29:16

even though in the next room where

the people that told me this. And

0:29:160:29:19

they were watching via the cameras.

I explained what had happened, but

0:29:190:29:25

he said, no, they're not supposed to

coach people, so he didn't believe

0:29:250:29:31

me.

And that had an impact on you

over the years after that?

Oh,

0:29:310:29:36

absolutely. I felt then, that's when

I really felt that the investigation

0:29:360:29:43

was going downhill. Because then

after that, I spoke to another

0:29:430:29:47

officer, and they said that, I have

noticed over the 48 hours since the

0:29:470:29:53

attack, I had a lot of bruising come

out, and could we have them

0:29:530:29:57

photographed for evidence, because

it was clear that they were

0:29:570:30:03

handgrips on the? And to me it

looked like somebody had been

0:30:030:30:06

holding me down or something because

they were on my arms and legs. And I

0:30:060:30:11

was told, that's fine, somebody will

be in touch. And I think there must

0:30:110:30:15

be something inside me that made me

realise, this is really important,

0:30:150:30:20

because they're not going to do it.

So the next day I actually went and

0:30:200:30:23

saw my GP and had it recorded, the

bruising.

In 2008 Granollers a call

0:30:230:30:33

for witnesses and victims of John

Worboys which is when you went

0:30:330:30:38

forward again. -- there was a call.

I didn't want to go forward, to

0:30:380:30:48

start with, if I am honest. When I

had a call from my friends who was

0:30:480:30:52

with me that night, he saw it on the

news and said, I think that is him.

0:30:520:30:59

I did the late because I thought I

can't go through that I can't go

0:30:590:31:03

through another five years of not

being believed, being told he made

0:31:030:31:08

it up, being told a black cab driver

just would not do that, being told

0:31:080:31:12

that you could not possibly have

been raped because you are wearing a

0:31:120:31:17

tampon. It was absolutely

horrendous. For five years I was

0:31:170:31:23

doubting my own sanity. Had I

imagined it? Had I made it up? I

0:31:230:31:28

couldn't confide in many people

about what had happened because it

0:31:280:31:33

was so difficult to say to somebody

this is what happened but nobody

0:31:330:31:36

believes me. And to go through all

of that again, it did take me a

0:31:360:31:41

little while. When I was seeing the

numbers going up and up and up, I

0:31:410:31:48

always said to the police when they

closed the file he would reoffend,

0:31:480:31:51

he would definitely reoffend because

I refuse to pick up my clothes. They

0:31:510:31:58

said he would definitely reoffend

and I would need them as evidence.

0:31:580:32:02

Seeing the numbers going up in terms

of women coming forward, literally

0:32:020:32:06

over days, it was horrendous. I

never realised he was going to

0:32:060:32:10

reoffend that many times and I had

to go forward, I had to do

0:32:100:32:15

everything I could.

Your action

today that is being heard in the

0:32:150:32:22

Supreme Court, is all about whether

the police failed to conduct an

0:32:220:32:27

effective investigation. I'm going

to bring in your solicitor, if I

0:32:270:32:31

may. The Met, then backed by the

then Home Secretary to reason me are

0:32:310:32:38

fighting this ruling. What are the

implications if you do win today?

If

0:32:380:32:45

we win, it will establish in law

that the police do have a duty to

0:32:450:32:51

undertake effective investigations

into crimes that meet the threshold

0:32:510:32:54

of article three, which is inhumane

and degrading treatment, of which

0:32:540:33:00

rape would qualify. It would be an

historic judgment if it goes in that

0:33:000:33:05

way because, so far, the courts have

been tested a number of times about

0:33:050:33:14

whether police are liable under the

common-law of negligence. The courts

0:33:140:33:19

have consistently said he cannot

bring negligence claims against the

0:33:190:33:23

police for failed investigations.

What we have argued is, under the

0:33:230:33:28

Human Rights Act, the state has a

duty to ensure its citizens are not

0:33:280:33:34

subject to inhumane and degrading

treatment. We have argued that that

0:33:340:33:39

duty extends to having an effective,

not just effective laws, but

0:33:390:33:44

actually operation of those laws.

That is essentially what the

0:33:440:33:47

argument is and what we're waiting

to hear, what the court will decide.

0:33:470:33:52

So it would be, if it goes the right

way, it would be very good for rape

0:33:520:34:00

victims and other victims of serious

crime generally.

And it would open

0:34:000:34:05

the doors to potentially sue other

forces for failing to carry out an

0:34:050:34:12

investigation?

Potentially. They are

not saying every single case would

0:34:120:34:18

lead to a civil claim. They have

been careful to say it has been

0:34:180:34:23

really serious failures. As we heard

in this case, it is not just what

0:34:230:34:27

happened to Fiona, it is what

happened to my other clients. We

0:34:270:34:33

know that ten women reported Worboys

to the police before eventually they

0:34:330:34:37

made the connection. Once the media

appeal went out, 105 cases were

0:34:370:34:44

linked. And so, very many women

don't even report. Of course, where

0:34:440:34:52

drugs are used, women aren't even

sure what has happened to them. So,

0:34:520:34:59

this is so important because we have

to, we have to get confidence from

0:34:590:35:04

women to report. I don't know why

the Home Secretary took the decision

0:35:040:35:09

to side with the police when she

made statements about the importance

0:35:090:35:14

of violence against women and

initiatives.

The police argument is,

0:35:140:35:19

if the ruling goes your way if you

win you are effectively imposing an

0:35:190:35:24

investigative duty on the police was

that they are saying we have

0:35:240:35:27

procedures in place and practices in

place and that is enough.

That is

0:35:270:35:32

precisely the point. What is so

startling when Reid took this case

0:35:320:35:38

to trial originally, that is right.

They did have procedures and

0:35:380:35:42

guidelines in place. There was a

whole set of guidelines about how

0:35:420:35:45

you assess drug assisted rape and

they did not follow them. An

0:35:450:35:52

inspector in court said that my

council said but what do you think

0:35:520:35:55

this guideline is here for question

he said, I don't know. Is it to

0:35:550:35:59

protect us from litigation or

something? If that is the attitude

0:35:590:36:03

you cannot just have laws and

guidelines if they are not enforced

0:36:030:36:07

properly.

Let me bring the owner

back in. There is a separate,

0:36:070:36:11

judicial review which you are also

bringing. -- Fiona. That is about

0:36:110:36:17

the release of John Worboys and the

decision made by the Independent

0:36:170:36:25

parole board to release him after

eight years. You want that stopped,

0:36:250:36:28

reversed will stop it meant you

faced John Worboys in court a few

0:36:280:36:31

weeks ago.

Tell us about that.

I was

already warned he could possibly

0:36:310:36:38

have been there on video link. I was

sort of prepared for him there. But

0:36:380:36:46

when, obviously, I was told he would

be there in person, it was a bit

0:36:460:36:50

difficult walking through the doors

and getting to court. I think I was

0:36:500:36:54

a little bit late. I made it because

I felt it was really important to

0:36:540:37:02

show Worboys himself I was not

scared anymore because I do believe

0:37:020:37:07

that rape is not about sex, it is

about control and power. I want to

0:37:070:37:13

take back control and power back

from him by showing him I was no

0:37:130:37:18

longer afraid of him.

What did you

think when you saw him?

When I saw

0:37:180:37:23

him I was expecting a big, scary

monster to come through the doors.

0:37:230:37:28

Over this amount of time, 15 years,

you build it up in your head of what

0:37:280:37:33

he will be like. When he first

walked through the doors I was just

0:37:330:37:39

struck by, oh my God, he's pathetic.

A pathetic old man. He was all

0:37:390:37:45

hunched over and reading his hands

were talking were talking. Talking

0:37:450:37:49

just above a whisper. A couple of

times he looked at me and I saw his

0:37:490:37:55

eyes. Do you know what? He has not

changed one bit. Every woman that

0:37:550:38:01

got in a cab reported the reason

they accepted that drink was because

0:38:010:38:06

they felt sorry for him. It was

pathetic. It was an act. I do

0:38:060:38:11

believe going to court was an act. I

saw his eyes. He is still capable of

0:38:110:38:17

what he was doing ten years ago.

Absolutely still capable. I will

0:38:170:38:23

keep fighting. I will do whatever it

takes to keep him behind bars for

0:38:230:38:27

debate is the only way will be

protected from him, if he is behind

0:38:270:38:31

bars. No licensing conditions can

watch in 24/ seven.

You are adamant

0:38:310:38:37

he is still a danger?

As far as I'm

concerned, he is a danger. I am not

0:38:370:38:43

concerned about what you can do to

me because is nothing more he can do

0:38:430:38:47

to me that I don't want to go back

to 2003 and be watching the news

0:38:470:38:52

again, waiting for him to reoffend.

I know he will reoffend and I don't

0:38:520:38:55

want to be in a position where I

said, I was right, I told you he

0:38:550:38:59

would do this again. He will. He

will absolutely do this again and we

0:38:590:39:04

need to protect women from him.

0:39:040:39:14

That was "Fiona" whose case

is at the supreme court today

0:39:140:39:17

and her solicitor Harriet Wistritch.

0:39:170:39:20

We are expecting that ruling very

soon. Andy says...

0:39:200:39:26

That says... -- Bev. And from

Sheena...

0:39:340:39:47

This from Ian.

0:39:560:39:58

These women have already been paid

compensation, £40,000.

0:40:100:40:19

This is the news to do with

unemployment will do it increased by

0:40:190:40:25

46,000 to 1.47 million according to

the office for National Statistics.

0:40:250:40:29

The unexpected rise from a record

low was accompanied by an

0:40:290:40:32

improvement in pay rises which

averaged 2.5%, excluding bonuses.

0:40:320:40:38

Next this morning...

0:40:380:40:39

How hundreds of Britain's

homeless are being trapped

0:40:390:40:41

into modern slavery.

0:40:410:40:43

An investigation by Buzzfeed News

has found that hundreds of hundreds

0:40:430:40:47

of homeless people have been

captured over the past three years -

0:40:470:40:50

approached at soup kitchens

and while sleeping rough,

0:40:500:40:52

and lured into slavery with

the promise of drugs and alcohol.

0:40:520:40:55

Some have been found locked

in caravans, without heating,

0:40:550:40:59

bedding, or running water; others

chained up, or locked outside.

0:40:590:41:09

Jane Bradley is Buzzfeed News'

Investigations correspondent,

0:41:100:41:11

who has uncovered this story.

0:41:110:41:16

Jane, what did you learn

0:41:160:41:17

about how homeless people

are being 'enslaved'?

0:41:170:41:21

We often hear the term hidden in

plain sight. In this case it really

0:41:210:41:26

was. We found evidence that

traffickers were targeting homeless

0:41:260:41:32

people are sick kitchens, shelters,

and rough sleeping hotspots all over

0:41:320:41:36

the UK. This was often incredibly

brazen, in broad daylight. What is

0:41:360:41:41

really shocking is just how

calculated and organised the

0:41:410:41:44

recruitment is. These are not just

opportunistic pick-ups. This is the

0:41:440:41:50

deliberate targeting people who are

desperate, vulnerable, and often

0:41:500:41:54

have some kind of addiction mental

health issues that traffickers are

0:41:540:41:59

ultimately preying on. Turning up at

soup kitchens with the promise of

0:41:590:42:03

cash or a bed. Sometimes even drugs

or alcohol. Whatever that

0:42:030:42:10

vulnerability is that these

traffickers are playing on, some

0:42:100:42:13

shelters even reported gang masters

posing as volunteers or rough

0:42:130:42:19

sleepers themselves in order to

infiltrate the plays and recruit

0:42:190:42:23

more homeless workers. That is what

we are talking about here.

You spent

0:42:230:42:28

time doing secret filming on groups

of homeless people and potential

0:42:280:42:32

traffickers.

Tell us about that. We

wanted to find evidence for this

0:42:320:42:37

ourselves and we spent weeks

carrying out surveillance and

0:42:370:42:41

secretly filming brands and cars as

they picked up homeless and

0:42:410:42:45

destitute workers on a street corner

in Bradford and took them to local

0:42:450:42:50

worksites. Every day, around 7am, up

to 15 men would be standing on these

0:42:500:42:56

corners waiting for work. Often four

hours in the freezing cold or

0:42:560:43:00

pouring rain and it really was like

watching a red light district. A car

0:43:000:43:05

or van would pull up, the window

would go down and I homeless worker,

0:43:050:43:10

a destitute worker with leaning,

sometimes negotiate, get into the

0:43:100:43:14

car, and drive off. We followed some

of these workers to construction

0:43:140:43:20

sites, a charity clothing bank, and

even a law firm in Bradford. We

0:43:200:43:26

found evidence of exploitation. One

gang master admitted to paying less

0:43:260:43:30

than the minimum wage. Another said

he did employ a homeless worker for

0:43:300:43:34

cash in hand Labour but he paid him

fairly. A third guy simply said, no

0:43:340:43:40

one is making them stand there.

When

the victims are recruited, how are

0:43:400:43:44

they treated?

I spoke to six victims

for this investigation full debate

0:43:440:43:50

all painted a picture of

backbreaking 12 hour shifts in

0:43:500:43:55

factories, hotels, construction

sites all over the UK. This would

0:43:550:43:58

often be working seven days a week

for as little as £20 at the end of

0:43:580:44:02

it. Sometimes nothing at all. They

would be kept in the filthy, rat

0:44:020:44:09

infested caravans, offer with no hot

water, no running water, no

0:44:090:44:14

electricity, no heating. Or it might

be a terraced house where up to 50

0:44:140:44:20

workers would be kept in while they

worked for these slave masters. In

0:44:200:44:25

one case actually a police officer

told me she had come across 25

0:44:250:44:29

people living in the garden of a

house in what she described as

0:44:290:44:33

rabbit hutch is. Of course, there is

often threats or beatings at the

0:44:330:44:40

hands of the traffickers in order to

basically scare the victims into

0:44:400:44:43

staying put. One of the victims I

spoke to for this investigation told

0:44:430:44:50

me he had witnessed a gang master

pouring boiling hot Coffey over a

0:44:500:44:58

victim. Another tried to strangle

someone with his own shirt. It is

0:44:580:45:04

not just physical assaults that they

face. Traffickers will often steal

0:45:040:45:09

ID documents of victims to keep them

trapped, or run up imaginary debts

0:45:090:45:15

for living costs so they can spend

decades paying off this money. My

0:45:150:45:19

mother did you get the sense in your

investigation of how bad the problem

0:45:190:45:23

is, how widespread it is? One thing

that really struck me when I first

0:45:230:45:27

started to look into this was how

much of an open secret it seemed to

0:45:270:45:33

be in the sector, amongst homeless

charities in shelters and even the

0:45:330:45:36

police force. That was in contrast

to public awareness around the

0:45:360:45:40

issue. We did some digging and found

there have been hundreds of reports

0:45:400:45:45

of homeless victims of modern

slavery in the UK in the past three

0:45:450:45:48

years. There were 278 in the last

year alone. These figures are very

0:45:480:45:54

likely to be the tip of the iceberg,

simply because many of these cases

0:45:540:46:00

are undocumented. The Government,

the local authorities, and many

0:46:000:46:05

police forces have failed to keep

track of any data of homeless

0:46:050:46:12

victims of modern slavery. Our

analysis really is the first insight

0:46:120:46:15

we have had into the scale of the

problem and what it shows is these

0:46:150:46:20

are not one-offs. This is a

widespread crime targeting some of

0:46:200:46:23

the most vulnerable people in our

society.

0:46:230:46:44

We've been speaking to a victim

of the Rooney family,

0:46:440:46:46

who were convicted last September

of modern-day slavery offences

0:46:460:46:49

after they illegally held 18 men

at a caravan site in Lincoln.

0:46:490:46:51

Fred, which isn't his real name,

has learning difficulties

0:46:510:46:54

and was picked up by the Rooneys

at a soup kitchen in Reading before

0:46:540:46:57

being driven to Lincoln,

where he would live in squalor

0:46:570:46:59

for the next 12 years.

0:46:590:47:01

He's been speaking to our

reporter Greg Dawson.

0:47:010:47:02

Fred, just tell me about the day

that you first met the Rooney

0:47:020:47:07

family, what can you remember?

A

traveller came in and asked for some

0:47:070:47:11

workers and I was the only one they

asked. They said the work would be

0:47:110:47:15

time making and block paving. I got

into the van because they said they

0:47:150:47:20

wanted another van pushed to get it

started. I got into the van and I

0:47:200:47:26

just wondered what was going to

happen to me and I ended up in

0:47:260:47:29

Lincoln.

When you were in the van,

did they tell you where they were

0:47:290:47:33

taking you?

No. When I got out of

the van it was dark and I was shown

0:47:330:47:38

a caravan, and I stayed in that

caravan until the morning. There

0:47:380:47:42

were no washing facilities or

electric or nothing. I didn't sleep

0:47:420:47:48

at all because I just wanted to get

off that site and I didn't know

0:47:480:47:52

where I was. They gave me breakfast

and told me what duties I had to do

0:47:520:47:58

there, and if I didn't do what I was

told I would get slapped up from

0:47:580:48:03

Martin. Martin was the boss of them.

I got on friendly with him at first

0:48:030:48:08

but after a while he started

bullying be.

What did they tell you

0:48:080:48:14

that they would pay you when you

were working for them?

They said I

0:48:140:48:20

would get £20 to £30 a day for just

doing things like digging out a

0:48:200:48:25

driveway and getting it ready for

paving or tarmac.

And did they ever

0:48:250:48:29

give you that money?

No. Never. All

the time I was there I got nothing

0:48:290:48:37

off them. They also took my benefits

from me that I was paid every

0:48:370:48:40

fortnight.

If you refused to do the

work they were asking, what would

0:48:400:48:49

happen?

If I didn't do the work, I'd

get slapped by the dad. And if the

0:48:490:48:55

dad wasn't there, I'd get slapped by

the twins. I had no choice.

How

0:48:550:49:02

often would they beat you?

Every

day, if I didn't do what they

0:49:020:49:08

wanted. He would either use his belt

or his fist. I wanted to walk off

0:49:080:49:15

there and then, but I didn't know

where I was or where to go. I was

0:49:150:49:18

frightened.

What did you do for food

when you were living there?

There's

0:49:180:49:25

a friend of mine who used to go to

raid the bins at the local shops to

0:49:250:49:30

feed himself. And when he went

looking for food I went with him. We

0:49:300:49:36

got into the bins, taking bread and

whatever else was worth eating. I

0:49:360:49:41

would also do a bit of hunting. I

used to they're rabbits and did my

0:49:410:49:47

own little rabbit stews and that.

Tell me about the conditions in the

0:49:470:49:52

caravan itself - were you able to

have a shower, use the toilets?

If I

0:49:520:50:00

wanted the toilet I would have to go

behind the nearest bush.

So there

0:50:000:50:05

were no toilets?

There was no toilet

there. I couldn't have a wash or

0:50:050:50:08

shower.

So, you lived for 12 years

with no toilets, with no washing

0:50:080:50:16

facilities?

No. Access to a shower

was a no-go, toilet was a no-go. If

0:50:160:50:26

I wanted a wash I would have to walk

down to the nearest rock and have a

0:50:260:50:29

wash in there. Them days was hard,

and I hope it doesn't happen to

0:50:290:50:34

anybody else. -- the nearest brook.

There's me and a few others that

0:50:340:50:41

have been through it, and I wouldn't

want it to happen to anybody else.

0:50:410:50:45

Did you ever wonder when you were

there, is anybody looking for me?

0:50:450:50:48

Yeah, I wondered that, because I

lost contact with all my friends and

0:50:480:50:53

that. I'd given up hope until the

police found me.

0:50:530:51:00

12 years is such a long time to be

trapped somewhere, to be exploited,

0:51:150:51:19

and to be abused as you work - what

effect has that had on your life?

I

0:51:190:51:25

don't like being out all day,

because I know people could be out

0:51:250:51:30

there wanting workers. It's hard. I

do not want to see it happen to

0:51:300:51:36

anybody. There's homeless people out

there, and I don't want to see them

0:51:360:51:41

in the same place I was. It's

affected me a lot. Now, I'm away

0:51:410:51:47

from them, I'm glad to be where I am

now. If it hadn't been for the

0:51:470:51:53

police rescuing me, I wouldn't be

walking about, I'd probably be in a

0:51:530:51:58

wooden box somewhere.

0:51:580:52:01

Right now we're going straight to

the Supreme Court in London live,

0:52:060:52:09

where they're delivering a ruling on

the cases wrought by two women

0:52:090:52:14

against the Mike Pollitt police in

the Worboys case...

Those failures

0:52:140:52:18

constituted a violation of their

rights under article three of the

0:52:180:52:23

European Convention on Human Rights

and their freedoms. Article three

0:52:230:52:29

provides that no-one shall be

subjected to torture or inhuman or

0:52:290:52:33

degrading treatment or punishment.

The main issue on the appeal was to

0:52:330:52:40

what extent Article three imposes a

positive obligation on states

0:52:400:52:46

effectively to investigate reported

crimes perpetrated by private

0:52:460:52:49

individuals. The High Court and the

Court of Appeal held that a positive

0:52:490:52:56

obligation to investigate did exist,

and that in this case, that

0:52:560:53:00

obligation had not been fulfilled.

Compensation was awarded to DSD and

0:53:000:53:09

NBV. Commissioner of the police

appealed to the Supreme Court, and

0:53:090:53:17

it was accepted that whatever the

outcome of this appeal, recoupment

0:53:170:53:22

of any compensation that had paid

would not be sorted. The main area

0:53:220:53:27

of dispute was the nature of the

positive obligation imposed by

0:53:270:53:30

article three of the Convention. In

particular, the question arose as to

0:53:300:53:35

weather that obligation relates only

to systemic failures on the part of

0:53:350:53:41

the police, or weather it also

includes failures in the conduct of

0:53:410:53:44

the investigation. The Supreme Court

unanimously dismisses the

0:53:440:53:54

commissioner's appeal. There was

disagreement between us as to

0:53:540:53:58

whether a liability under the Human

Rights Act arose only due to

0:53:580:54:02

systemic failures or whether

efficiency is in the actual

0:54:020:54:06

investigation of the offences would

be enough to make the police libel.

0:54:060:54:13

By a majority, we have held that

failures in the investigation of the

0:54:130:54:17

crimes, provided they are

sufficiently serious, will give rise

0:54:170:54:21

to liability on the part of the

police. And we further found that

0:54:210:54:26

there WERE such serious efficiencies

in this case. There were, of course,

0:54:260:54:32

both systemic and investigatory

failures, a the important point to

0:54:320:54:36

make is that if the investigation is

seriously defective, even if no

0:54:360:54:40

systemic failures are present, this

would be enough to render the police

0:54:400:54:45

libel. The court is now adjourned.

0:54:450:54:48

So, the two women who argued that

the Met Police breached their human

0:54:540:54:59

rights for failing to investigate

claims that they had been raped by

0:54:590:55:02

John Worboys in 2003 and 2007 have

won their case. The Metropolitan

0:55:020:55:08

Police have lost. And indeed, the

Home Office backed by the then Home

0:55:080:55:12

Secretary Theresa May, have lost

that case. We can go to June Kelly,

0:55:120:55:17

our correspondent, outside the

Supreme Court. We heard most of the

0:55:170:55:20

ruling, but just fill us in with the

significance of this?

I think the

0:55:200:55:25

first thing to say, Victoria, is

that this is a significant victory

0:55:250:55:28

for these women and a serious defeat

for the Met Police, who had brought

0:55:280:55:33

this challenge, having lost in the

lower courts. They then came to the

0:55:330:55:37

Supreme Court, the highest court in

the land, in the hope that they

0:55:370:55:40

would win here, the police, and

obviously, an important defeat for

0:55:400:55:44

them. As we were hearing from the

justices, they said that they

0:55:440:55:48

accepted the arguments from the

women's lawyers that the police had

0:55:480:55:52

breached these women's human rights

over their failure to investigate

0:55:520:55:55

John Worboys. As we know, John

Worboys was roaming around the

0:55:550:55:59

streets of London committing crimes

against women for a number of years,

0:55:590:56:02

and it has been acknowledged by the

Met Police that he should have been

0:56:020:56:05

brought to justice earlier. And the

women brought this case on that

0:56:050:56:08

basis, that he could have been

stopped earlier. This case tells one

0:56:080:56:13

of the most significant things about

it is that it will have implications

0:56:130:56:15

now for forces around the country

over a possible failure to

0:56:150:56:19

investigate.

Meaning what, you mean

other people might sue police forces

0:56:190:56:26

for failures to investigate

properly?

Yes, and we're talking

0:56:260:56:32

about serious crimes here, serious

violent crimes, is what the women's

0:56:320:56:35

lawyers had argued this case was

about. And basically this is why the

0:56:350:56:41

police fought this case all the way

to this court, because they realised

0:56:410:56:46

the implications if the judgment

went against them. And of course

0:56:460:56:49

now, it has done, as we have heard

in the last few minutes. The women

0:56:490:56:52

it should be said, in this case, the

two women, are also the women who

0:56:520:56:57

are bringing a challenge against the

decision to release Worboys from

0:56:570:57:02

prison on licence. That is a

separate case going on through a

0:57:020:57:06

separate judicial process. But

coming back to what's going on here

0:57:060:57:10

this morning, crucially, the judges

have said, the justices have said,

0:57:100:57:14

that the women's human rights were

breached because the force was under

0:57:140:57:21

an obligation to investigate John

Worboys. It failed in that duty. It

0:57:210:57:25

is a duty of the state, as it was

put in the judgment, and therefore

0:57:250:57:29

this is why the Met Police this

morning have lost this case.

Thank

0:57:290:57:33

you, June Kelly, outside the Supreme

Court. So, a significant ruling from

0:57:330:57:39

the Supreme Court in the last few

minutes. We spoke to one of the

0:57:390:57:44

women who was taking that case, who

has won that case, at the start of

0:57:440:57:48

the programme this morning. Your

reaction now as you were watching...

0:57:480:57:52

This one says... A horrific

experience, such a brave woman. The

0:57:520:57:58

police should be ashamed of

themselves in the way that they

0:57:580:58:00

treated her when she was at her most

vulnerable. I hope her bravery and

0:58:000:58:05

other women who exposed their

attacks encourage others to come

0:58:050:58:09

forward and report these crimes.

This one says... It is ridiculous

0:58:090:58:12

that the police did not properly

investigate and take the information

0:58:120:58:17

of the person who dropped the woman

off at the police station who was in

0:58:170:58:21

such a state. It is beyond belief

and completely unprofessional. This

0:58:210:58:24

one says... On Twitter the Met

Police do need to be held

0:58:240:58:29

accountable for failing survivors of

the black cab rapist. It is clear to

0:58:290:58:35

see the emotional suffering caused

by poor standards in investigations.

0:58:350:58:38

And one more... To relive the events

and the trauma to complete strangers

0:58:380:58:44

in positions of authority and not to

be believed, to be told that you

0:58:440:58:47

aren't credible, nor behaving as a

victim of sexual assault should, is

0:58:470:58:55

inhumane. More reaction to come to

the Supreme Court ruling in the next

0:58:550:58:59

hour of the programme. We will bring

you the latest news and sport in a

0:58:590:59:02

moment. Before that, the weather

with Nick.

0:59:020:59:07

High pressure building in across the

UK, so it is quiet weather. The fog

0:59:110:59:19

is quite slow to clear in some areas

but there will be some sunshine for

0:59:190:59:23

most areas at some stage today.

There are areas of cloud around,

0:59:230:59:26

particularly in England and Wales.

But even here I think the cloud will

0:59:260:59:29

break at times and at least it will

brighten up. There is the chance of

0:59:290:59:33

the odd light shower in some areas

but it is mainly dry story. Very few

0:59:330:59:40

wind arose showing up, which

indicates very light winds and

0:59:400:59:43

temperatures topping out at about

659 Celsius. Next week is looking

0:59:430:59:48

much colder. But going towards

0:59:480:59:52

weekend temperatures will be

dropping off a little bit. And

0:59:520:59:54

tonight there will be a more

widespread frost around. We've got

0:59:540:59:57

plenty of clear spells, still some

patchy cloud and patches of fault

0:59:571:00:01

developing as well as we go through

the night. Temperatures in two

1:00:011:00:04

tomorrow morning close to freezing,

a few degrees below in the coldest

1:00:041:00:09

spots. More of us getting a frost

tomorrow morning, and tomorrow, just

1:00:091:00:14

like today, there will be areas of

cloud around, there will be sunny

1:00:141:00:17

spells, and whilst most places are

looking dry, there will be enough

1:00:171:00:22

cloud towards Northern Ireland and

western Scotland to produce a few

1:00:221:00:24

light showers here. Temperatures

just dropping off a degree or so

1:00:241:00:31

again, and that is the trend for the

rest of the week and into the

1:00:311:00:35

weekend, turning colder as lead at

the weekend, as the winter starts to

1:00:351:00:38

hit up and some really bitter, cold

air expect it for a time next week

1:00:381:00:43

and a few snow showers around as

well. We will keep you updated.

1:00:431:00:47

Hello.

1:00:501:00:51

It's 10 o'clock.

1:00:511:00:52

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:00:521:00:53

Breaking news in

the last few minutes.

1:00:531:00:55

The Metropolitan Police

has lost its Supreme Court challenge

1:00:551:00:57

over a ruling which led to two

women who were sexually

1:00:571:00:59

assaulted by London cabbie

John Worboys winning compensation.

1:00:591:01:01

We've been speaking exclusively

to one of those women.

1:01:011:01:11

I am not worried about

what he will do to me but I

1:01:161:01:19

don't want to go back

to 2003 and be watching

1:01:191:01:21

the news again waiting

for

1:01:211:01:22

him to reoffend.

1:01:221:01:23

I know he will reoffend full

I don't want to be in

1:01:231:01:26

that position where I will say, I

was right because he will absolutely

1:01:261:01:29

do it again.

1:01:291:01:31

We'll bring much more reaction

to this throughout the programme.

1:01:311:01:33

Also on the programme -

The United Nations in Syria says

1:01:331:01:36

it's deeply worried for hundreds

of thousands of people trapped under

1:01:361:01:39

a mounting government bombardment

of the rebel-held enclave

1:01:391:01:41

of Eastern Ghouta.

1:01:411:01:50

We can hear the shouts and crying

of women and children.

1:01:501:01:53

The mortars are dropping

on us like rain.

1:01:531:01:55

There is nowhere to hide from this

nightmare in Eastern Ghouta.

1:01:551:02:02

Women who've had their ovaries

or wombs removed to treat

1:02:021:02:12

the painful condition

of endometriosis say they are not

1:02:161:02:24

receiving the right after care.

1:02:251:02:33

The Supreme Court has made a ruling

over the John Worboys case. The

1:02:331:02:41

women claimed police failures

amounted to inhuman and degrading

1:02:411:02:44

treatment. The Metropolitan Police

had argued it had practices and

1:02:441:02:48

procedures in place that, in the

last few minutes, the court ruled

1:02:481:02:53

against them. Fiona is one of the

women involved in today's's case.

1:02:531:03:00

She was not one of the women that

Worboys was convicted of raping that

1:03:001:03:06

she has been recognised as a victim

of rape since by the police was she

1:03:061:03:10

told this programme exclusively

about what happened to her in John

1:03:101:03:16

Worboys cab. She is appearing

alongside her lawyer.

1:03:161:03:20

There

1:03:201:03:21

was a conversation about him

stopping for a cigarette or

1:03:211:03:24

something and did I want a

cigarette. I might even have asked

1:03:241:03:28

him if it was OK to smoke. In 2003

you did smoke in cabs. People Dover

1:03:281:03:34

and I render him getting into the

back of the cab with me. -- he

1:03:341:03:40

pulled over and I remember him. He

went to put his arm around me.

1:03:401:03:46

Before I lacked out I can remember

thinking he was nice. I wonder if I

1:03:461:03:53

encouraged him by saying that. I

think I was meaning, you are a nice

1:03:531:03:58

guy because you have given me a

cigarette or something. It was not

1:03:581:04:03

intended to be anything other than

that. The next memory I have is

1:04:031:04:08

waking up in hospital.

That is when

you woke up and thought, what on

1:04:081:04:15

earth happened?

Yes. I woke up and

was very confused very

1:04:151:04:22

disorientated. I had a drip in my

arm and pulled the drip out and went

1:04:221:04:29

to the toilets. I think I was having

a bit of a meltdown for the looking

1:04:291:04:33

back at it hit was a bit

embarrassing because I was running

1:04:331:04:36

around and shouting at the nurses, I

don't know where I am, where am I?

1:04:361:04:41

They did not realise what I meant.

They kept saying I was in hospital.

1:04:411:04:46

I didn't know which hospital I was

in and I was really upset because I

1:04:461:04:50

should have been home looking after

my baby.

Did you know you had been

1:04:501:05:00

raped?

As soon as I went to the

toilet I knew I had been raped. I

1:05:001:05:03

was a little bit sore. When I went

to the toilet the tampon I was

1:05:031:05:06

wearing fell out. I knew instantly

because of the way I was.

Let me

1:05:061:05:13

read you some more messages.

Delighted by the Supreme Court

1:05:131:05:17

decision to dismiss the appeal by

the Metropolitan Police. This is

1:05:171:05:20

justice. This text, I totally feel

the pain of having seen Worboys in

1:05:201:05:32

court. I was a victim of sexual

assault three years ago. I was a

1:05:321:05:36

teenager at the time did not go to

court I saw the person who did it in

1:05:361:05:41

the supermarket a few months ago. By

blood ran cold and I left

1:05:411:05:46

immediately. What is not understood

as the victim has a mental life

1:05:461:05:50

sentence. Sue says, I sat down

briefly this money to watch part of

1:05:501:05:57

your programme and stayed with the

interview with the John Worboys rape

1:05:571:06:02

victim. I was stunned and mesmerised

by her bravery and coherence telling

1:06:021:06:07

her story. It must have taken so

much to read tell the horrific

1:06:071:06:11

events she has enjoyed. I cannot

believe the police reaction. Let me

1:06:111:06:20

introduce you to the people

supporting the women's legal

1:06:201:06:25

challenge. And also someone from the

Metropolitan Police who investigated

1:06:251:06:33

rapes during his time with the

force. The women were arguing above

1:06:331:06:40

a breach of human rights that police

failed to investigate claims

1:06:401:06:44

properly.

What do you say? That

judgment today is a huge victory for

1:06:441:06:48

victims rights and huge step forward

in an end of this.

I am appalled by

1:06:481:07:00

what I saw today. I already knew

about it. This all happened as I was

1:07:001:07:05

retiring. We had done so much about

bringing on sexual investigations.

1:07:051:07:11

For my part, it was about stalking

and a lot has been achieved on that.

1:07:111:07:17

I don't think the police has

entirely got it right. The

1:07:171:07:21

comeuppance has happened now. There

are strings attached to it for the

1:07:211:07:25

police with floodgates opening with

claims from things like that. They

1:07:251:07:30

will have to be careful on that.

You

say floodgates opening. The Justice

1:07:301:07:34

has made clear that this will only

apply to serious crimes. Simek yes.

1:07:341:07:39

I'm happy you mean other people who

feel the police has failed to

1:07:391:07:45

investigate claims properly can

soon. 's aye you are right. Anyone

1:07:451:07:51

who has been involved in a car

crash, you get calls from different

1:07:511:07:58

companies wanting to represent them.

We are in that sort of society.

1:07:581:08:06

Police are bound to be concerned

about that.

Let me read to this

1:08:061:08:11

statement from the major bulletin

police, from the Deputy

1:08:111:08:15

Commissioner. He says the metabolic

and police that is fully accepts the

1:08:151:08:19

decision of the court this morning.

-- the Metropolitan Police Service.

1:08:191:08:25

We have fully accepted the

complaints and it was only the

1:08:251:08:28

courage of the victims coming

forward, including these two

1:08:281:08:35

complainants today, who have come

forward. Police force needed

1:08:351:08:42

absolute clarity and the boundaries

of police responsibility and

1:08:421:08:46

liability for their investigations.

We have always been clear that

1:08:461:08:52

appeal to the supreme court was

about interpretation of European

1:08:521:08:59

human rights law.

Do you accept

that? It is good the police are

1:08:591:09:04

accepting the decision. They had no

choice. The real question is, why

1:09:041:09:09

did they dragged the women through

this? They lost in the High Court

1:09:091:09:13

and Court of Appeal. They say it is

about clarity for the bit is about

1:09:131:09:18

the police then they did not want

women like the victims of John

1:09:181:09:22

Worboys to have a legal right to

bring a case against the police

1:09:221:09:26

where victims of serious violent

crimes had faced serious

1:09:261:09:32

investigative failures which had

stopped people like John Worboys

1:09:321:09:35

coming to justice. Instead of years

of litigation funded by the

1:09:351:09:41

taxpayers the police should have

said, we will learn the lessons of

1:09:411:09:44

the failures make sure the victims

of violent, sexual offences are

1:09:441:09:48

protected in future and not cite the

legal niceties over a number of

1:09:481:09:52

years as they have done. Back is

deeply disappointing.

Do you think

1:09:521:09:57

if police failed to thoroughly

investigate a serious crime they

1:09:571:10:04

have breached an individual's human

rights?

I think the speed of the

1:10:041:10:08

reaction from the Metropolitan

Police suggests they were expecting

1:10:081:10:15

that verdict. It is about subsequent

liabilities and that is what they

1:10:151:10:20

wanted to make perfectly clear.

There is a huge amount...

Now we are

1:10:201:10:24

clear. They are liable. They have to

carry out thorough investigations

1:10:241:10:29

into people's lane is when it is a

serious allegation.

I think they

1:10:291:10:34

knew that in the first place. It is

penalties and sanctions that

1:10:341:10:38

followed. I would say,

notwithstanding what has happened

1:10:381:10:43

today, it still has been huge

progress made in the investigation

1:10:431:10:46

of sexual matters and this has gone

horribly wrong and no one will

1:10:461:10:50

defend it, I hope. There are more

and more people reporting these

1:10:501:10:54

crimes. I would encourage people to

continue doing that. Things have

1:10:541:10:58

moved on. I can go back 30, 40 years

went they were treated atrociously,

1:10:581:11:05

which they may have been treated

here was a marvellous moves have

1:11:051:11:08

been taken forward but it is more of

a multi-agency approach and medical

1:11:081:11:14

examinations so police have

confidence and report it.

Would you

1:11:141:11:17

accept that police have made

progress when it comes to

1:11:171:11:22

investigating serious sexual

assaults?

Some progress has been

1:11:221:11:25

made and more progress needs to be

made. We need better investigations

1:11:251:11:29

and we need the women better looked

after. We need to see more

1:11:291:11:34

prosecutions and higher conviction

rates.

I read into the bottom of the

1:11:341:11:41

judgment will have to consider how

we balance resources against the

1:11:411:11:45

need to effectively investigate

certain crimes. Interesting. Thank

1:11:451:11:48

you very much will coming onto the

programme.

1:11:481:11:57

250 people have been killed in

Damascus in three days through

1:11:571:12:01

intense bombing. The area is eastern

Ghouta. It has been held by rebels.

1:12:011:12:10

It has been under siege for the last

five years. In 2013 its people were

1:12:101:12:14

subject to a chemical attack, which

the United Nations said constituted

1:12:141:12:18

a war crime. Hundreds were killed

and many more left seriously

1:12:181:12:23

injured. Now the relentless bombing

has been described as beyond

1:12:231:12:28

imagination with the UN calling on

world leaders to demand the Syrian

1:12:281:12:32

government immediately stops the

bombing. The UN has also issued a

1:12:321:12:40

blank statement, mostly blank,

hardly any words on it, because they

1:12:401:12:45

say there are no words to talk about

what is happening in eastern Ghouta.

1:12:451:12:50

Syria itself has been in civil war

for a total of seven years with no

1:12:501:12:54

sign of ending. These eastern Ghouta

residents describe life there.

The

1:12:541:13:07

missiles and the mortars are

dropping on ours like rain. There is

1:13:071:13:12

nowhere to hide from this nightmare

in eastern Ghouta. -- on us.

1:13:121:13:31

Those injured, taken to the

underground hospitals are taken now

1:14:271:14:33

by doctors.

1:14:331:14:39

Joining us now via phone

is Dr Bassam Bakri who is a doctor

1:14:391:14:42

working in Eastern Ghouta.

1:14:421:14:46

How do you help people's injured in

the conditions we have been talking

1:14:461:14:49

about?

Hello everyone. You cannot

measure the situation in eastern

1:14:491:14:56

Ghouta now. Many of the injured

people, civilian people, we can't

1:14:561:15:02

treat all of them. Maybe you can

hear the voice of the air strike

1:15:021:15:15

now. The patients and injured people

on the waiting list are more than

1:15:151:15:22

that injured.

We can deal with them.

I am going to interrupt you. So, I

1:15:221:15:30

can hear the occasional third. Is

that the sound of bombs falling?

1:15:301:15:35

Yes, yes. -- thud. Every minute we

have three or four air strikes. This

1:15:351:15:47

is the situation. It is catastrophic

in eastern Ghouta.

You cannot

1:15:471:15:55

imagine that. How long have you been

enduring this?

It is about today,

1:15:551:16:08

maybe today, we're in the three

months in this attack. We have more

1:16:081:16:13

than maybe 2000 killed people, more

than ten times this number about

1:16:131:16:26

killed people is injured people.

1:16:261:16:42

You know we are under siege by Assad

regime more than five years, no

1:16:421:16:45

medicine...

Sorry to interrupt

again, you have no medicine, do you

1:16:451:16:49

have food?

No.

Do you have water?

No, no, we don't have. We have no

1:16:491:16:57

medicine, not enough medicine, no

anaesthetic medicine, no child

1:16:571:17:06

medicine, a be no milk for the

children. No morphine, no dialysis

1:17:061:17:10

applies. -- maybe no milk. You know

we are under besiegement. Most of

1:17:101:17:23

these items, we have a shortage on

this medicine, and maybe some of

1:17:231:17:30

it...

You know that your president

says that this area is being

1:17:301:17:39

targeted, because rebels are

embedded amongst civilians, that

1:17:391:17:42

they are deliberately living amongst

the residents of Eastern Ghouta -

1:17:421:17:53

what do you say to your president?

You mean my president is a Cheryl

1:17:531:17:59

Assad? Yes. No, Bashar al-Assad is a

criminal, it is not our president.

1:17:591:18:12

The Syrian people want to withdraw

or overthrow this regime. It is not

1:18:121:18:19

our president. It is a criminal. He

killed people, he destroy

1:18:191:18:28

everything, he destroyed people,

destroyed our schools, destroyed our

1:18:281:18:33

hospitals. It's not from this

country, I think it's not... It's

1:18:331:18:39

not our president, of course. So, we

don't... We don't want this criminal

1:18:391:18:47

president.

He is a survivor, though,

what can you do about him?

You know,

1:18:471:19:01

in this day, we are just dealing

with emergency to make this innocent

1:19:011:19:13

children and people and women stay

alive, just surviving... So, another

1:19:131:19:21

patient just we can take them on

waiting list. That's what we can do

1:19:211:19:26

now have. We don't have enough

medicine.

For British people who are

1:19:261:19:35

watching you now, most of them will

have absolutely no idea how you

1:19:351:19:39

manage to live, to survive, for

seven years now, this war has been

1:19:391:19:45

going on - tell us about the

pressures on you as you try to stay

1:19:451:19:50

alive?

Yes, I want to stay alive, I

am people, I am human being, I have

1:19:501:19:59

a hard, I am scared. But I have to

stay here and help my people. We

1:19:591:20:07

have to build our future, build our

country, so we need your solidarity,

1:20:071:20:14

we need people, free people in the

world, to be solidarity with us, to

1:20:141:20:20

know that we are struggle to have

our freedom, our democracy. We have

1:20:201:20:28

to stay here and help our people.

So, we need to stay in our towns,

1:20:281:20:37

and here, my childhood hero, why

history here, my schools... I have

1:20:371:20:45

rights, hike everyone in this world

have rights. -- my childhood here.

1:20:451:20:56

So, we are killed, friends of Syrian

people maybe leave us to be killed

1:20:561:21:03

people but I don't know where is

friends of Syria people.

That is a

1:21:031:21:08

very good question, what do you say,

about the fact that the

1:21:081:21:15

international community has done

little or nothing to help people

1:21:151:21:19

like yourself?

Yes, the

international community just

1:21:191:21:21

watching, just watching our children

killed. Why? Why are you just

1:21:211:21:25

watching, where are you? We are poor

people. We are people need your

1:21:251:21:32

solidarity. Just leave your

interests one-time, one-time leave

1:21:321:21:39

your interests and deal with this

catastrophe. We are going by talk

1:21:391:21:44

towards famine. People maybe just

have a meal maybe in one-day.

1:21:441:21:54

Believe me, children have a meal in

one-day. And adults away in two days

1:21:541:22:03

have a meal. -- and adults maybe in

two days have a meal. I have only

1:22:031:22:12

breakfast in a day. We don't have

enough food. We don't have enough

1:22:121:22:17

food for people in shelters. People

in shelters in a bad way, bad

1:22:171:22:20

situation.

Thank you, we are

grateful for your time, we

1:22:201:22:25

appreciate you talking to us. A

doctor there, trapped on the

1:22:251:22:36

outskirts of Damascus in Eastern

Ghouta. This is a statement I wanted

1:22:361:22:39

to show you from Unicef, the aid

agency which is there to care for

1:22:391:22:43

children. It is mostly What have

they have written on the top is, no

1:22:431:22:48

words will do justice to the

children killed, their mothers

1:22:481:22:51

Huddlestone so far, their loved

ones. In the last few days 250

1:22:511:22:56

people have been killed in Eastern

Ghouta in Syria, and dozens of those

1:22:561:23:01

are children.

1:23:011:23:04

Here...

1:23:071:23:10

Women who've had their ovaries

or wombs removed to treat

1:23:101:23:13

endometriosis have been telling this

programme they are not receiving

1:23:131:23:16

appropriate aftercare.

1:23:161:23:17

Endometriosis is a condition

where the layer of tissue

1:23:171:23:19

that normally covers

the inside of the uterus

1:23:191:23:21

grows outside of it -

leaving women in debilitating pain.

1:23:211:23:24

The NHS won't freeze the eggs

of all women who have a hysterectomy

1:23:241:23:27

to treat the condition,

but does offer this to cancer

1:23:271:23:32

patients who have to undergo

the same operation.

1:23:321:23:39

It's left people with the condition

asking why they have less of a right

1:23:391:23:43

to children and to proper aftercare.

1:23:431:23:44

Last week actor Lena Dunham revealed

that she'd had a hysterectomy

1:23:441:23:47

to treat her endometriosis -

the pain of which she

1:23:471:23:49

said was unbearable.

1:23:491:23:50

176 million women

worldwide live with it.

1:23:501:23:55

Let's talk now to Clair Scrimshaw,

who had a hysterectomy but was not

1:23:551:24:05

offered the chance to have her eggs

frozen. Salina Akhtar has not had to

1:24:051:24:16

have a hysterectomy but sees

problems in the kind of care offered

1:24:161:24:20

to women. And Emma Cox is the CEO of

the charity Endometriosis UK. She

1:24:201:24:28

says there is a huge inequality in

care across the NHS. Welcome all of

1:24:281:24:32

you. Can you describe what it is and

how it affected you and from what

1:24:321:24:40

age?

For me, endometriosis was

something I had never heard of until

1:24:401:24:45

I got diagnosed. My problems started

at 13 when I started my period to. I

1:24:451:24:51

would have extremely heavy bleeding,

extreme pain, so going up the stairs

1:24:511:24:55

for instance I would collapse

sometimes. Going to the toilet, just

1:24:551:24:59

normal, everyday things you take for

granted, I was in so much pain that

1:24:591:25:02

it was just ridiculous, I was taking

time off school. That followed

1:25:021:25:07

through into college and university

and work. However, it took me 11

1:25:071:25:14

years to get diagnosed.

Age to 24 by

then?

Yes, I was. And by that point,

1:25:141:25:19

I mean, I was just so poorly with

it, and at that point, when I was

1:25:191:25:24

diagnosed, actually, firmly enough,

they told me I had endometriosis,

1:25:241:25:29

they said, we're going to give you a

course of injections for six months.

1:25:291:25:34

Off you go. They never explained

what it was. In my mind I thought it

1:25:341:25:40

was something similar to a cold,

something I could get rid of in

1:25:401:25:44

terms of having these injections.

So, nobody talked about potentially

1:25:441:25:48

a hysterectomy or it affecting your

fertility?

No, nothing. As far as I

1:25:481:25:52

was concerned, it was just those six

injections.

But in the end it was a

1:25:521:25:59

number of operations culminating in

a hysterectomy?

Yes. I had a total

1:25:591:26:02

of four surgeries for the

endometriosis, and breach was using

1:26:021:26:05

a kind of laser for the

endometriosis and the other two were

1:26:051:26:10

excision which is a deeper tissue

which they kind of cutaway. Which is

1:26:101:26:15

now the most standard treatment

because it actually gets further

1:26:151:26:17

down rather than just the

superficial endometriosis. But then

1:26:171:26:22

after that, I had another operation,

tubes removed, that was in October

1:26:221:26:29

20 16th and that did not work for me

and finally, July 2017, my 34th

1:26:291:26:35

birthday pretty much, I had a

hysterectomy.

And you asked about

1:26:351:26:40

harvesting expert or freezing eggs?

I did, there was a window of about a

1:26:401:26:43

month or so between me speaking to a

consultant at at you having a

1:26:431:26:48

hysterectomy, where they said, if

you want children it will cost you

1:26:481:26:53

£3500 to freeze your eggs. And I had

one week to make the decision.

So,

1:26:531:26:57

for me... Why were they charging

you?

Because at the time it was only

1:26:571:27:02

specifically cancer patient I think

who can get a free... I get a free

1:27:021:27:09

cycle of IVF for endometriosis but I

can't freeze my eggs for free.

1:27:091:27:14

Understood. And so... How do you

respond to that?

At the time, it was

1:27:141:27:24

quite stressful for me because I had

been on morphine for years by that

1:27:241:27:29

point. I take morphine every day and

codeine and seven other extreme

1:27:291:27:34

painkillers. It has been difficult

to work, so I have worked when I can

1:27:341:27:39

and had two operations and come away

from working. So, obviously,

1:27:391:27:42

financially, you're not particularly

stable.

Did you have £3500 to pay

1:27:421:27:48

for the harvesting and freezing of

eggs?

No, I didn't. At the time, it

1:27:481:27:55

is more your primary kind of focus

is to get rid of the pain. So,

1:27:551:27:59

mentally I was not in the right

state of mind I don't think to even

1:27:591:28:03

consider the impact of not freezing

eggs. Because since I have had my

1:28:031:28:08

hysterectomy unfortunately my two

sisters have children and I do now

1:28:081:28:12

feel like I would like perhaps the

opportunity to have that experience.

1:28:121:28:17

But I don't...

Salina Akhtar, this

is why I think you want to make a

1:28:171:28:26

point about the inequality when it

comes to certain treatments, certain

1:28:261:28:29

conditions?

Yep. I probably went

through a similar experience. After

1:28:291:28:34

my first surgery I thought I was

cured, I did not know it was a

1:28:341:28:38

lifelong issue. And I think I did

not even realise what was happening

1:28:381:28:40

until I started to feel unwell again

about two or three years later, and

1:28:401:28:44

I had to go back to my doctor, a

different GP because I had moved,

1:28:441:28:49

fight again to get to a

gynaecologist to get diagnosed

1:28:491:28:53

almost from scratch even though they

had my surgery on file. And at no

1:28:531:28:56

point along the way had I really

been told how it would affect my

1:28:561:28:59

fertility.

And how has it?

I can't

have children, basically. Initially,

1:28:591:29:06

probably I had a bit of a nervous

breakdown, I will be honest. But I

1:29:061:29:11

am resolved to that now. But had I

been told at 25 when I first got

1:29:111:29:15

diagnosed that if you let this

condition progressed it can have

1:29:151:29:18

that effect, maybe at that age I

would have made a decision to have

1:29:181:29:23

babies earlier in life or whatever.

But when I was 30 I had another

1:29:231:29:26

surgery and then, I had to go... I

was with a partner at the time and

1:29:261:29:32

we went to have IVF and we found

that I could not have it on the NHS

1:29:321:29:36

because I was not old enough running

having the condition. So, we went

1:29:361:29:39

private. Only through doing that did

I find out that my body had gone

1:29:391:29:44

into premature menopause. So I

basically could not have children

1:29:441:29:47

without an egg donor anyway. But had

I known at 25 that there was a

1:29:471:29:51

possibility of any of this

happening, you think, actually,

1:29:511:30:00

maybe I would have had kids at 25,

you don't know.

You might have made

1:30:001:30:03

different decisions had you had the

1:30:031:30:06

full information.

Yeah. Carol, how

many gynaecologists did it take

1:30:061:30:07

before...? Sorry, it sounds like the

start of a bad joke. Before you were

1:30:071:30:12

diagnosed? My first gynaecologist

told me that my problems were due to

1:30:121:30:15

with stress and moving house. I

waited a year and saw another one,

1:30:151:30:19

finally operated and diagnosed

endometriosis and told me she had

1:30:191:30:23

fixed it. Which... I had never heard

of it before, either. When someone

1:30:231:30:28

tells you that they have fixed it,

you think they have. But my pain was

1:30:281:30:32

so much worse, and then I saw a

third gynaecologist and he found

1:30:321:30:35

endometriosis in my bowel and

bladder. Which, OK, it might be a

1:30:351:30:40

bit less common, but that is how it

was affecting me, I had

1:30:401:30:45

constipation, diarrhoea, I was

having pain all month not just with

1:30:451:30:48

my period. Painful intercourse

throughout my 20s, which was really

1:30:481:30:53

difficult to come to terms with. So

it really affected me very badly by

1:30:531:30:56

that point.

1:30:561:31:01

In terms of the practicalities of

your life now? What does it mean?

It

1:31:011:31:09

is really complicated, difficult

condition. I wish I had been

1:31:091:31:12

diagnosed earlier. I was 31 when I

was diagnosed. I have had the lower

1:31:121:31:18

part of my bowel removed and eight

bladder operations. I live with half

1:31:181:31:22

blood and out. I have had

endometriosis between my kidney and

1:31:221:31:29

bladder. I lived with a condition

called lymphoedema so my leg is

1:31:291:31:34

permanently swollen. In terms of

where I am now, I am 45 and probably

1:31:341:31:38

in better health than I have been

for a long time but I chose to have

1:31:381:31:41

a hysterectomy. I have a condition

which can occur alongside

1:31:411:31:50

endometriosis where cells actually

grow in the wall of the win. It is

1:31:501:31:54

really difficult because a

hysterectomy does not cure and

1:31:541:32:01

Demetrius is but for this other

condition it can make a really big

1:32:011:32:06

difference to our lives. --

endometriosis.

We have heard here

1:32:061:32:12

where people have conditions where

they have to self catheterised. They

1:32:121:32:18

have had no follow-up. I know Selena

was being seen by two different

1:32:181:32:25

gynaecologist for two differing

conditions saying, ignore what the

1:32:251:32:28

other one is saying want you to take

these drugs. I am paraphrasing. I

1:32:281:32:33

think Claire, her first operation

was to have her ovaries removed and

1:32:331:32:39

a hysterectomy came a few months

later. She was told she could not

1:32:391:32:48

harvest eggs and in the NHS because

it is only endometriosis. If you are

1:32:481:32:53

having an operation if, whatever

reason you are having, it should not

1:32:531:32:57

matter the cause. There should be

pathways. With lymphoedema, if you

1:32:571:33:06

had the same operations as Carroll

quickly would be seen by a whole

1:33:061:33:08

range of consultants. We were

talking earlier with Claire Caligula

1:33:081:33:13

discharged straight on two hours and

you have had no follow-up. Only

1:33:131:33:18

found out that the months later you

should have been referred to the

1:33:181:33:21

menopause clinic and had HRT

therapy. I think there is an

1:33:211:33:28

inequality we need to make a

difference for these women.

A couple

1:33:281:33:31

of messages. Lindsay saying, I have

stayed four endometriosis. How many

1:33:311:33:39

stages are their quest to do know

there were stages at all.

There are

1:33:391:33:44

two different ways of classifying

it. There are stages one to four. It

1:33:441:33:48

depends on where and how deep it is.

OK, thank you. I had many

1:33:481:33:59

misdiagnoses between the ages of ten

and 28 and it has completely ruined

1:33:591:34:04

my life. I lost my job of eight

years and have had to take morphine

1:34:041:34:10

every day during the four years. It

is a horrific illness which takes

1:34:101:34:13

far too long to diagnose and doctors

do not seem to know too much about

1:34:131:34:17

it or believe us when they say how

much pain they are in. There is no

1:34:171:34:22

cure. Thank you for bringing this

issue onto your programme. Jean

1:34:221:34:33

said, I had endometrial softer

suffering a really bad pain which

1:34:331:34:35

included painful sex and bad

bleeding. On occasions this

1:34:351:34:37

prevented me from going to work. I

visited my GP many times and decided

1:34:371:34:42

I had my appendix removed, which

happened. It was not until I had an

1:34:421:34:47

early hysterectomy that

endometriosis was diagnosed. Thank

1:34:471:34:53

you very much. Thank you for

talking. I really appreciate it.

1:34:531:34:58

Hopefully it will make a difference.

1:34:581:35:04

Still to come.

1:35:041:35:10

We will hear a story about an honour

killing. We will also discuss

1:35:101:35:18

homeless people being trapped into

modern day slavery and find out what

1:35:181:35:21

we can do to stop it.

1:35:211:35:23

Time for the latest news.

1:35:231:35:29

The Metropolitan Police has lost its

Supreme Court challenge over the

1:35:291:35:39

victims of John Worboys. The women

say the treatment by police calls

1:35:391:35:44

the mental harm. The Supreme Court

unanimously dismissed the appeal

1:35:441:35:47

from the police. The women are also

separately pursuing a judicial

1:35:471:35:54

review of the parole board decision

to release John Worboys. The United

1:35:541:36:00

Nations has urged world leaders to

push for an end to the bombardment

1:36:001:36:04

of eastern Ghouta. The UN said

400,000 people were living in

1:36:041:36:15

unimaginable conditions. UK

unemployment has increased slightly

1:36:151:36:18

for the first time in two nears. The

number of unemployed people rose by

1:36:181:36:24

36,000 to 1.47 million for the final

quarter of Austria, compared to the

1:36:241:36:28

previous three months. Despite the

fighting crease in the rate of

1:36:281:36:32

unemployment, the total number of

people in work rose by 80 8000. --

1:36:321:36:37

the increasing rate. Dua Lipa is

leading the way to the highest

1:36:371:36:50

number of nominations are given to a

female artist. She had a number one,

1:36:501:36:55

the 21-year-old, and is heading to

21,000 sales with her debut album.

1:36:551:37:03

That is a summary of the BBC News.

More messages from you regarding

1:37:031:37:08

Fiona, the woman respect with

beginning of the programme, one of

1:37:081:37:10

two woman taking a case to the

Supreme Court against the metabolic

1:37:101:37:13

and police. The two women one. They

argued their case. -- the

1:37:131:37:23

Metropolitan Police. This just

coming in.

1:37:231:37:30

The person who attacked me had done

it several times but nothing has

1:37:371:37:40

ever been brought against them. I

feel betrayed by the justice system.

1:37:401:37:47

This text... Listening to Fiona, I

totally feel her pain in having the

1:37:471:37:50

shock of seeing John Worboys in

court. As a victim of sexual assault

1:37:501:37:56

14 years ago and where I did not go

to the police I saw the person in a

1:37:561:38:03

supermarket out of the blue.

Mercedes said, and goodness the

1:38:031:38:07

Supreme Court has made the right

decision. As a former police officer

1:38:071:38:10

I am ashamed of the way this case

was handled by the Met. Fiona,

1:38:101:38:17

outside the Supreme Court, known in

court as DST, said, on reacting to

1:38:171:38:22

the judgment, it has been an

emotional day, 15 years. Referring

1:38:221:38:27

to the police can she added, had you

done your job properly, there would

1:38:271:38:32

not have been 105 victims were there

would have been won. I could have

1:38:321:38:37

taken the one but not the 105.

1:38:371:38:45

We are going to introduce you to

this robot. We will show you how he

1:38:451:38:51

mimics the facial expressions of

people like me in order to help

1:38:511:38:57

teach autistic children how to learn

emotion. Absolutely fascinating. I

1:38:571:39:02

was going to say we will talk to him

before 11. We're not going to do

1:39:021:39:08

that but we are going to talk about

it before 11. Now the sport.

1:39:081:39:19

Another busy day at the Winter

Olympics.

1:39:191:39:26

Team GB's Women's curling team has

reach the semi finals.

1:39:261:39:33

They came through a very

difficult matchup

1:39:331:39:35

against the defending champions

Canada, snatching the win with two

1:39:351:39:37

points on the final end.

1:39:371:39:39

The 6-5 win for Team GB also means

the Canadians are knocked out -

1:39:391:39:42

failing to reach the semi-finals

for the first time.

1:39:421:39:44

Things were very very

different for Team GB's men -

1:39:441:39:46

as the United States scored 4 points

in the eighth end to hand Britain

1:39:461:39:50

a crushing 10-4 defeat.

1:39:501:39:51

That means GB have a Play-off

on the way against Switzerland,

1:39:511:39:53

From the ice to the snow -

Billy Morgan is into the final

1:39:531:39:57

of the inaugural Big Air competition

- scoring 90.5 on his second run.

1:39:571:40:03

Lionel Messi's late strike denied

Chelsea going into the next round

1:40:031:40:10

against Barcelona. More sport after

11 o'clock.

1:40:101:40:18

Drones turned into missiles. Fake

videos manipulating public opinion

1:40:181:40:22

and automated hacking. The malicious

use of artificial intelligence

1:40:221:40:31

report is warning that AI is ripe

for exploitation by rogue states and

1:40:311:40:36

terrorists. More is needed to be

done to mitigate possible misuses of

1:40:361:40:44

technology. Let's talk about the

risks and the positives. One

1:40:441:40:48

researcher behind

1:40:481:40:56

today's port is a doctor who is

here. Sarah Ben at is also here. On

1:40:561:41:02

our table is the robot. We have a

doctor from UCL's Institute of

1:41:021:41:11

education. You study risk for a

living. What are the long-term risks

1:41:111:41:22

imposed by gases proposed by AI? --

proposed by AI? We could go as far

1:41:221:41:33

as human extinction. That sounds

apocalyptic.

No human beings left.

1:41:331:41:46

There have been various

conversations about long-term with

1:41:461:41:49

artificial intelligence and machines

which can perform better than humans

1:41:491:41:55

and the risks that they might pose

this is not what this report is

1:41:551:41:59

about what it looks at the that we

have now in the next five years and

1:41:591:42:06

how they might be misused by hackers

with malicious intent to cause harm.

1:42:061:42:13

That is something I have mentioned

in the introduction. I am fascinated

1:42:131:42:17

about how we go from that to human

extinction.

So... I must say I

1:42:171:42:26

haven't prepared that this is

something I do talk about quite a

1:42:261:42:29

lot.

Do me to come back to you.

In

principle, we are making machines

1:42:291:42:37

that can think. It is proving

extremely difficult. Five years ago

1:42:371:42:41

you could not have a computer that

tells apart a cat from a dog. The

1:42:411:42:45

fact we can do so now brings about

risks in the near Temple submitted

1:42:451:42:50

how long will take until we have

computers he can do everything that

1:42:501:42:53

humans can do. -- in the near-term

but we do not know how long it will

1:42:531:43:00

take. If you can do everything a

human can do, you can do much more

1:43:001:43:07

than a human can do. If we make such

systems were not shown we are in

1:43:071:43:10

control of the more that they want

what we want, we might end up in a

1:43:101:43:16

world where are the kind of world we

have wanted to create is not one we

1:43:161:43:20

want to inhabit and we will not be

in a position to stay there. They

1:43:201:43:24

would kill us all? Create an

environment in which we could not

1:43:241:43:29

stay.

How worried are you? To be

honest, not as worried as perhaps

1:43:291:43:35

the initial discussion might

suggest. We certainly nowhere near

1:43:351:43:39

having machines that can in any way

think for themselves, we don't have

1:43:391:43:42

sent a unique beings. One thing

technology struggles with is past

1:43:421:43:51

transfer. They are based on data we

are feeding them. We are very much

1:43:511:43:55

in control of this technology and it

is not something we see making its

1:43:551:44:01

completely its own decisions. Not

yet. Not yet. For now, I feeling

1:44:011:44:06

fairly calm about it and in control.

You advise companies on robotics and

1:44:061:44:13

AI. Can you give us some real-life

examples?

Certainly do if I can just

1:44:131:44:22

respond. What we should not ignore

is the fact that our protection

1:44:221:44:28

systems, we also become cleverer.

The same technology, artificial

1:44:281:44:33

intelligence, that creates the

potential for all the harm

1:44:331:44:35

highlighted by the report will also

enable us to have better protection

1:44:351:44:39

systems. I just wanted to make sure

and provide a balanced view...

There

1:44:391:44:47

are people working on developing

protection systems right now.

Let me

1:44:471:44:51

give you an example. 10/20 years

ago, we did not have a virus

1:44:511:44:56

checkers. As viruses became

unleashed on world companies propped

1:44:561:45:03

up -- popped up to develop virus

checkers and protection for computer

1:45:031:45:08

systems. Cyber security will get a

lot more enhanced because of

1:45:081:45:13

artificial intelligence. To tell you

about examples of where AI is being

1:45:131:45:17

used effectively it is being used by

businesses do is being used by

1:45:171:45:20

businesses to speed up business

processes. For example, you might

1:45:201:45:23

hear of a train company here in the

UK that is handling its customer

1:45:231:45:28

complaints, using AI for that, and

they are getting refunds for

1:45:281:45:34

customers processed much more

quickly.

Is it like an enhanced

1:45:341:45:38

computer?

It literally mimics human

processes where you need to make the

1:45:381:45:46

judgment. It mimics that. Documents

coming the claims come in.

It looks

1:45:461:45:51

for the important points.

It being

what? AI. What does it look like?

A

1:45:511:45:59

piece of software. She says

disappointedly. Back enough. We also

1:45:591:46:12

wanted to talk about some of the

incredible things which robots are

1:46:121:46:17

getting involved in, and AI. Dr

Alyssa Alcorn, how are we using this

1:46:171:46:25

robot?

I am part of a project which

is looking at using this robot as a

1:46:251:46:30

teaching tool for young children on

the autism spectrum to learn about

1:46:301:46:33

emotions.

So, we're going to show

how it works. Let's hope this works.

1:46:331:46:40

Never work with children, animals or

robots! So, Zeno is going to mimic

1:46:401:46:47

the expressions on my face, and I'm

told they have to be rather a judge

1:46:471:46:50

rated.

So, as Victoria is making an

expression, the camera here...

That

1:46:501:46:56

is my shocked face!

I am very

convinced! So, the camera here is

1:46:561:47:03

tracking 49 facial landmarks on your

face and effectively using them like

1:47:031:47:07

instructions, telling the motors in

the robots face what to do.

Is he

1:47:071:47:13

copying the?

He is turning his head

as you turn your head - try and

1:47:131:47:17

angry face.

I am never angry, this

will be very hard!

He's doing his

1:47:171:47:26

best there. Maybe you just don't

look angry enough!

Life is good at

1:47:261:47:29

the moment! So, really, really

happy...

He looks pretty happy, too,

1:47:291:47:40

there. So, we're interested in using

this very early on in teaching

1:47:401:47:44

children on the autism spectrum

about emotions, because they might

1:47:441:47:49

not pay attention to faces.

So, with

all of those expressions, not that

1:47:491:47:54

interesting, but seeing a robot

would have an impact on a child on

1:47:541:47:58

the autistic spectrum?

Simply

meeting the robot will probably not

1:47:581:48:01

have an impact, we're talking about

a teaching programme over a longer

1:48:011:48:05

period. But it is thought that

children on the spectrum might be

1:48:051:48:09

more comfortable interacting with a

robot, because it is a simpler than

1:48:091:48:12

a person. We can programme the robot

to only give a limited range of

1:48:121:48:17

social cues at one time, and to make

him be able to repeat those in

1:48:171:48:21

exactly the same way over and over.

People are a lot less consistent,

1:48:211:48:25

they can be much more confusing. So

it is thought that that might lower

1:48:251:48:32

the demand of the interruption on

the child, so they can maybe get

1:48:321:48:35

more out of the learning experience

- that's one of the things we want

1:48:351:48:38

to test in this project, is if that

seems to be true.

Thank you very

1:48:381:48:41

much. Really interesting. And thank

you to Zeno. I cannot believe I am

1:48:411:48:47

thanking a robot, but this is what

the world is going to be about!

1:48:471:48:51

Thank you all of you are coming on

the programme. At 11 o'clock we're

1:48:511:48:54

going to bring you more reaction to

the Supreme Court ruling handed down

1:48:541:48:57

today in the case of two women who

were arguing that the Met Police

1:48:571:49:02

failed to investigate their claims

that they were raped by the black

1:49:021:49:06

cab driver John Worboys. The cases

weren't thoroughly investigated,

1:49:061:49:11

that's what they were arguing. They

have won is mourning. And the

1:49:111:49:15

Metropolitan Police have lost just

more reaction to that after 11. --

1:49:151:49:18

they have won this morning.

1:49:181:49:25

In July 2016, Samia Shahid was raped

and murdered during a visit

1:49:251:49:28

to see family in Pakistan.

1:49:281:49:31

The 28-year-old from Bradford had

been living in Dubai with her second

1:49:311:49:33

husband after her first arranged

marriage to her cousin broke down.

1:49:331:49:36

Her decision to divorce and re-marry

for love caused a huge

1:49:361:49:39

rift with her family.

1:49:391:49:43

As this actor, speaking the words of

four I's best friend in the UK,

1:49:431:49:50

explains.

From her parents' point of

view they were doing the right thing

1:49:501:49:53

by her. My mum and dad are Pakistani

but I'm not. I'm from the UK. How

1:49:531:50:02

could I change all of a sudden? How

can I be the villager from back

1:50:021:50:08

home? He knew she didn't want to

marry him so why couldn't he have

1:50:081:50:15

been the bigger person and say, you

know what, she doesn't want to spend

1:50:151:50:19

the rest of her life with you, why

should I marry you? He could have

1:50:191:50:24

helped her, here's how cars in, he

has known her since they were kids.

1:50:241:50:30

-- he is her cars in.

1:50:301:50:32

Desperate to try and resolve

the fallout she flew out

1:50:321:50:34

to Pakistan, despite fears

for her safety.

1:50:341:50:36

Six days into her trip,

Samia's father called the police

1:50:361:50:38

and said she'd had a heart attack

and was lying dead at

1:50:381:50:41

bottom of the stairs.

1:50:411:50:42

She was buried within a day,

but the story didn't stack up

1:50:421:50:45

for Samia's second husband,

and her friends in the UK.

1:50:451:50:47

They became suspicious and began

a quest for the truth,

1:50:471:50:52

Now, for the first time,

Samia's second husband,

1:50:521:50:54

Mukhtar has spoken about her murder

in a new BBC documentary.

1:50:541:50:57

Here he talks about why his wife

decided to make that fateful trip.

1:50:571:51:07

I get a call from the cousin asking

about Samia, and he told me that her

1:51:071:51:12

aunt, which was her

ex-mother-in-law, she passed away.

1:51:121:51:15

She was really in shock.

She really

loved her auntie.

There is no denial

1:51:151:51:22

about that, she cried a lot when she

died. She wanted to go to Pakistan

1:51:221:51:31

after that and we had this

discussion why she shouldn't go to

1:51:311:51:33

Pakistan. And then, after a few

weeks, she started getting these

1:51:331:51:41

emotional dialogue! From the family,

the father is not well, he is going

1:51:411:51:46

to pass away any time, you need to

come. Things might happen to the

1:51:461:51:49

Father...

1:51:491:51:55

We're going to talk now to Bradford

MP Naz Shah, who wrote

1:51:551:51:58

to the Prime Minister of Pakistan

immediately after Samia's death,

1:51:581:52:02

describing the case as an "honour

killing" and calling

1:52:021:52:04

for an investigation.

1:52:041:52:06

How did you first hear about Samia?

I had a lady calling the, a

1:52:061:52:12

constituent who rang me on the

Friday after her death and said to

1:52:121:52:15

me, can you support me? And if you

can't will you signpost me, I know

1:52:151:52:21

this girl has been murdered, can you

help us? That is how I got involved.

1:52:211:52:25

And what did you learn about what

could have happened to her?

Well,

1:52:251:52:31

originally, in the community, it

was, she had an asthma attack, she

1:52:311:52:34

had a heart attack. And as I started

speaking to her friends, and people

1:52:341:52:37

who knew her, they all said very,

very clearly, this girl married out

1:52:371:52:42

of her own choice and she was taken

to Pakistan, there were lots of

1:52:421:52:46

police involvement previously when

she decided to marry the cousin out

1:52:461:52:51

of her own choice and leave her

first husband, and to me it had the

1:52:511:52:57

hallmarks of a so-called "honour

killing". That was the minute I

1:52:571:52:59

heard about it.

And she herself, we

can see the messages, she was

1:52:591:53:05

worried about going to Pakistan, she

said she had not had reassurances

1:53:051:53:10

but she desperately wanted to go to

see her sick relative?

She was told

1:53:101:53:13

to go and see her father who was

ill, her cousin who wanted her to

1:53:131:53:18

go. I have read the messages I have

seen the screenshots of him saying,

1:53:181:53:21

come home if he was panicked every

time he did not hear from her... And

1:53:211:53:27

the last message was just after 12

o'clock and after that we did not

1:53:271:53:30

hear from her. And the next thing we

knew she had been murdered.

What do

1:53:301:53:36

we take from this horrific case?

Well, there's a few things. For

1:53:361:53:41

Samia's legacy we really, really

need to get justice. Although her

1:53:411:53:44

father passed away last month, I

think it was, we still have an

1:53:441:53:49

ex-husband who is charged with her

rape and her murder who is in

1:53:491:53:52

custody in Pakistan. The court case

is going to be transferred, because

1:53:521:53:58

a police officer was done for

corruption in this case as well, so

1:53:581:54:01

it was really, really important to

get political and media pressure in

1:54:011:54:05

Pakistan and the Guardian played a

huge role in Britain to highlight

1:54:051:54:08

its. But also legally speaking, we

have got the new ample domestic

1:54:081:54:12

violence abuse bill coming through

an end that we hope there will be

1:54:121:54:15

new powers which will mean that if

we have another case, where a Samia

1:54:151:54:20

is going to Pakistan and is murdered

in India or Pakistan or wherever,

1:54:201:54:24

then our police force can start

asking questions, and that is really

1:54:241:54:28

important, because it sends out the

message, you cannot take one of our

1:54:281:54:31

British children abroad and think

you can kill them and get away with

1:54:311:54:34

it.

Thank you very much.

1:54:341:54:37

You can watch Murdered for Love?

1:54:371:54:41

Samia Shahid, tonight

at 9pm on BBC Two.

1:54:411:54:48

The epidemic of violent knife crime

in London has claimed

1:54:481:54:50

two more fatalities.

1:54:501:54:52

Both were stabbed to death last

night in Kentish Town,

1:54:521:54:54

in the north of the city.

1:54:541:54:56

It brings the number

of people stabbed to death

1:54:561:54:59

in the capital since the beginning

of the year to 16.

1:54:591:55:02

BBC London's reporter Greg McKenzie

is on the scene of one

1:55:021:55:08

of last night's incidents.

1:55:081:55:12

Police were called to Malden Road

just after ten o'clock last night,

1:55:121:55:16

with reports of a man believed to be

in his 20s who had suffered from

1:55:161:55:20

staff wounds. When they arrived they

pronounced him dead here at the

1:55:201:55:23

scene. An hour and a half before

that incident here on Malden Road

1:55:231:55:27

just behind me, there was a separate

stabbing, a teenager was stabbed on

1:55:271:55:34

Bartholomew Road. That is about

15-20 minutes from this location

1:55:341:55:38

by-footer. It is believed he was a

teenager, and local residents have

1:55:381:55:43

said -- on foot -- that they saw the

mother of the teenager being

1:55:431:55:47

comforted by the police. She was in

an emotional state and taken to a

1:55:471:55:51

local community centre. It was there

where family members gathered and a

1:55:511:55:56

number of police community officers

were talking to the family and local

1:55:561:56:01

residents on the estate, saying

they're shocked and saddened about

1:56:011:56:03

what has happened but say this is a

reality of living in this area.

1:56:031:56:08

Earlier in the programme,

we brought you the story of how

1:56:081:56:11

hundreds of Britain's homeless

are being trapped

1:56:111:56:13

into modern slavery.

1:56:131:56:23

We can speak a bit about this now.

There are many people trapped into

1:56:231:56:37

modern slavery despite the act?

There, we have been aware of this

1:56:371:56:41

for some time, we have been

commissioned to do some work on, we

1:56:411:56:46

have found out, of the six D1

organisations that we surveyed,

1:56:461:56:50

about 64% had had experience of

this. So it is a huge issue on the

1:56:501:56:54

ground and with the rise in rough

sleeping, the latest figures show a

1:56:541:56:59

159% rise in both sleeping on the

streets since 2010. There is a huge

1:56:591:57:04

amount of people there to be preyed

on.

Caroline Haughey, why is this

1:57:041:57:11

happening run in the introduction of

the legislation with the Modern

1:57:111:57:19

Slavery Act?

People have an

expectation to go and get their car

1:57:191:57:24

washed for £4, and we as a society

are encouraging it because we want

1:57:241:57:27

more for less. When people want more

for less, people who are vulnerable,

1:57:271:57:33

weather it the alcohol, mental

health, financial, then they are the

1:57:331:57:36

ones who are going to be exploited.

If you don't have a home, and

1:57:361:57:41

somebody offers you a roof over your

head, even though you probably know

1:57:411:57:44

it is not going to be on great Toms,

it is the least worst alternative.

I

1:57:441:57:53

take your point about people wanting

a car wash for £4, but who is

1:57:531:57:57

supposed to enforce this

legislation, us, the police?

1:57:571:58:01

Actually it is not about enforcing

the legislation, the legislation is

1:58:011:58:05

being enforced, we're seeing raids

happened, we are seeing a leasing

1:58:051:58:09

attitude change and we are seeing

prosecutions on the increase. I

1:58:091:58:12

think it has got to be education,

health care, social services, the

1:58:121:58:18

police have to keep stepping up to

the mark as well.

But I think we all

1:58:181:58:23

have to be involved in trying to

help our fellow man for the better.

1:58:231:58:26

Thank you. Mick Clarke and Caroline

Haughey, thank you.

1:58:261:58:33

The dark side of artificial intelligence and what might happen if it gets in the wrong hands. Plus, Victoria talks to a victim of the black cab rapist John Worboys, at the centre of a Supreme Court ruling on how the police investigated her attack. And women with endometriosis who've had their wombs or ovaries removed call for more aftercare.