22/02/2018 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello.

It's Thursday, it's 9 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme.

Antidepressants do work, and more of

us should be using them.

This is the

final answer to a long-lasting

controversy about the efficacy of

antidepressants.

Have anti

depressants worked for you?

Let us know about your experience.

Donald Trump says if teachers had

guns, they could stop mass shootings

in American schools.

The president put forward the idea

during a meeting at the White House

with survivors and relatives

of victims of recent attacks,

who begged him to make sure it

doesn't happen again.

I am very angry that this happened,

because it keeps happening. 9/11

happened once and they fixed

everything. How many schools, how

many children have to get shot? It's

stops here with this administration

in May. -- and me.

We'll be speaking to two

of the survivors of the attack

at the high school in Florida last

week which left 17 people dead

to get their eaction

to Mr Trump's suggestion

And here, at the Brits last night,

Stormzy, beat Ed Sheeran to win best

British male and best British album.

And Dua Lipa also picked up two

awards for best British female

and the breakthrough award.

Well, congratulations.

Here is two

more women on these stages, more

women winning awards, and more women

taking over the world. Thank you so

much. -- to more women.

Hello.

Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11 this morning.

In a few minutes' time,

we're going to talk about the grim

rise in knife crime after two more

people were stabbed

in North London on Tuesday night.

It's a big issue for the capital,

but knife crime is on the rise

right across the country.

This morning

we've brought together a group

of people with form ideas about how

to tackle knife crime.

Parents who've lost sons to fatal

stabbings, politicans,

and a former Met officer.

And wherever you are in the country,

we'd like to hear your solutions

to tackling knife crime.

Text, email, FB or whatsapp.

Our top story today.

Scientists say they've settled one

of medicine's biggest debates

after a huge study found

that anti-depressants work.

It could mean that millions

more sufferers could

benefit from the drugs.

Andrew Plant reports.

They're

one of the most commonly

used drugs in the UK with 64 million

prescriptions for antidepressants

given out every year.

That's more than one

prescription per person.

But for years there's been debate

and doubt over how effective

they really are.

Now the University of Oxford has

analysed the data on a huge scale

and says every one of the 21 drugs

they looked that did help patients

to manage their depression.

We found almost all the commonly

prescribed antidepressants

worked for major depression

and for people with moderate

to severe depression,

and we also found some of them

are more effective than others,

or better tolerated than others.

Many who take antidepressants say

there is still a stigma attached

to using the medication.

When I first started taking them,

the first question asked

was when are you going to come off

them, are you going to take them

for a short amount of time?

It doesn't really work like that.

You wouldn't say to a diabetic,

when are you going to wean yourself

off insulin, you know?

I think people need

to realise that the benefits,

it's an ongoing thing.

The study also ranked the drugs

according to how effective

they were, which could help doctors

pick the right prescriptions

for their patients.

Andrew Plant, BBC News.

And if anti-depressants

have worked for you,

let us know what difference they've

made to your life.

And those experiences

of yours will be part

of our conversation this morning.

Right, the rest of the morning's

news, here's Rachel.

Giving teachers guns could help

prevent further school shootings

in the US.

That's the message from

President Trump as he sat down

in the White House with survivors

of last week's Florida

high school shooting.

Barbara Plett Usher has the story.

The people demand a hearing.

In Florida, telling their lawmakers

loud and clear, they don't want this

mass shooting to drop off

the political agenda

like all the others have.

At the White House, President Trump

was listening to victims

of the Parkland school attack,

but also those that came before it.

Andrew Pollack's 18-year-old

daughter, Meadow, was

killed last week.

It doesn't make sense, fix it,

should have been one school shooting

and we should have fixed it.

And I'm ****ed.

Because my daughter I'm

not going to see again.

She's not here, she's not here,

she's in North Lauderdale

or whatever it is,

King David Cemetery,

that's where I go to see my kid now.

It doesn't make sense

to her schoolmate, Samuel Zeif,

either, especially the gunman's

access to a semiautomatic rifle.

I don't understand,

I turned 18 the day after,

woke up to the news that my best

friend was gone and I don't

understand why I could still go

in a store and buy a weapon of war.

The president has responded to calls

for tougher gun laws with promises

of strong background checks,

but also more guns.

It's called concealed

carry, where a teacher

would have a concealed gun on them.

They'd go for special training.

There is some support for that

argument, but students who survived

the attack flooded Florida's state

legislature demanding a ban

on assault rifles.

ALL: Never again!

The students aim to harness that

momentum and turn it

into a national campaign.

Barbara Plett-Usher, BBC News.

The UN Security Council will vote on

a draft resolution later demanding a

month-long ceasefire to the fighting

in Syria. Reports suggest more than

300 people have been killed in the

area near Damascus since Sunday. The

UN Secretary General as hell on

earth in the rebel enclave. Theresa

May will seek to overcome

differences on Brexit amongst her

senior ministers today. She will be

chairing a meeting intended to

hammer out the cabinet position on

future relations with the EU, at

Chequers. Norman Smith joins us from

Westminster and I imagine this will

be quite the awayday.

It will be a

long day and all of the signs are

that it could go on until 10pm

tonight as Theresa May tries to end

the splits in her Cabinet over

Brexit between those like Philip

Hammond who want to remain close to

EU rules and to guarantee access to

the single market and those like

Boris Johnson who want the freedom

to diverged and pursue our own trade

deals but there is almost certainly

going to have to be a deal because

the clock is ticking and if we want

a trade deal by autumn we have to

let the EU no what sort of package

we want, and were Theresa May unable

to get the Cabinet to move together,

that would be a nightmare scenario

because it would fuel perception of

difference in the Cabinet, raise?

About leadership and, frankly would

say to EU negotiators that we were

still at sixes and sevens and don't

know what we want from rags --

raising questions about leadership.

Centrica, the owner of British Gas,

has said it will cut 4,000 jobs

over the next two years.

This morning the company,

which employs around 33,000 people

announced a big fall in profits

and said that British Gas had lost

nearly 10% of its UK domestic

customers last year.

People convicted of domestic abuse

offences in England and Wales will

be more likely to go to prison under

new sentencing guidelines. The first

time the guidance will say domestic

offences should be treated more

seriously than similar crimes that

do not involve family members or

partners.

The new guidance will also

extend a domestic abuse to include

threats on social media.

A helicopter carrying six British

tourists on a flight near the Grand

Canyon in the US spun around at

least twice before crashing and

catching fire according to

investigators. Three passengers died

in the accident earlier this month

while for more people including the

pilot were badly hurt. The

preliminary report by air accident

investigators does not say why the

helicopter crashed.

A month of strikes affecting 64 UK

universities and 1 million students

begins today. Lecturers are walking

out over changes to their pensions

which they say could leave them up

to £10,000 per year worse off in

retirement. Their employer,

universities UK, says the pension

scheme as a £6 billion deficit which

cannot be ignored.

# Theresa May, where's

the money for Grenfell?

# Well, you fool me,

just forgot about Grenfell.

A powerful political performance

from grime star Stormzy.

He won Best Male and Best Album

for Gang Signs & Prayer.

Gang Signs & Prayer,

this was the hardest thing that I've

ever worked on something

like this in my life.

Everything I put in that album,

I didn't have anything left after.

You can ask Fraser, we went

in there, we made something

that I thought was undeniable,

I can stand by it today.

Gang Signs & Prayer,

album of the year, I love you, guys.

Thank you so much, man, thank you.

# One, don't pick up the phone.

# You know he's only calling 'cause

he's drunk and alone.

# Two, don't let him in...

Two awards for 22-year-old Dua Lipa.

She won Breakthrough

Artist and Best Female.

She paid tribute to the many women

in music who'd influenced her.

I want to thank every single female

who has been on the stage performing

who has given girls like me,

not just girls in the music industry

but girls in society,

a place to be inspired by,

to look up to, and that have allowed

us to dream this big.

There was a politically

charged winner's speech

clearly referencing Brexit from Blur

star Damon Albarn whose band

Gorillaz won Best British Group.

This country is, believe it or not,

quite a small little thing, right?

But it's full of...it's

a lovely place.

What I want to say is,

don't let it become isolated.

# I'm only human, I do what I can.

Rag'n'Bone Man won Best Single

for his hit Human.

Ed Sheeran received

the Global Success award.

And there was a special tribute

from Liam Gallagher commemorating

last month's Manchester

Arena bombing.

# Maybe I don't really wanna know

how your garden grows...

Lizo Mzimba, BBC News.

That's your summary of the latest

news. Back to Victoria. Thanks for

your messages about antidepressants,

and we are only speaking about this

because scientists say they have

settled one of medicine 's biggest

debates after a hugely fan

antidepressants work. We will talk

in more detail about the study after

ten a:m.. Gareth says if they

prescribed properly for depression

they can work but they are not the

antibiotics of mental health. This

tweet says, I take antidepressants,

they don't cure the problem that

they allow me to take a break to

think. Prior to that I was suicidal.

So for me, they've been a

life-saver. I did try to come off

them for a few months but the

depression and darkness came Black

so I went back on. Thank you for

that, and we will feed your

experiences into our conversation.

You can send this e-mail. -- send us

an e-mail.

Let's get some sport with Hugh

and some disappointment

for Britain's men's

curling team overnight.

Yes, real disappointment that the

Team GB men could not match the

women by reaching the semifinals of

the curling competition. They had

one last chance to survive

overnight, play-off against

Switzerland but they were beaten

9-5, despite being ahead with two

ends to play. The Swiss did

something you don't see too often,

scoring a 5-point stone in the

penultimate end meaning they advance

rather than Team GB. Disappointment

for them, especially after taking a

silver medal in the event four years

ago. There was some good news for

Dave Riding, finishing ninth in the

men's slalom. He vowed to come back

and Challenger in medal in Beijing

in four years' time and he thinks he

can do the same as a gold medallist

and perform at the age of 35. We

will see Dave riding again, and a

good result in the men's slalom. A

tense finish to the women's ice

hockey final with the US winning a

dramatic penalty shoot out in the

women's final to take gold and stop

Canada from winning their fifth

straight title. The USA keeper was

the hero, sparking those wild

celebrations, and disappointment for

the Canadians. Today the Russian

curler who had won a mixed doubles

bronze medal in the curling

alongside his wife, today he has

been stripped of the medal after

admitting to doping. He was

representing the Olympic athletes

from the Russian team, one of a

Russians allowed to compete as

neutrals, despite the country being

banned for the state-sponsored

doping scandal. Not really the sort

of story that the Russians sporting

officials would have been hoping

for.

No goals for Manchester United

in the Champions league at Sevilla

but is that a good first leg result?

Manchester United and Jose Mourinho

taking a lot of flak in the back

pages today, they never got going in

that time. They were lucky to get

away with a goalless draw against

Serbia. The pre-match chat was

around record signing Paul Pogba, on

the bench. His exile was short

lived, he was brought on after 60

minutes for the injured Ander

Herrera. Severe had the best chances

of the night, 25 shots on goal. Back

in his native Spain, their keeper

denied Manchester United a goal.

They'll be back soon at Old

Trafford.

And Mark Cavendish has

injured himself. Embarrassing for

the organisers of the Abu Dhabi and

tall. He lasted three miles. The

pellets and took out one of the cars

and his automatic braking system was

activated suddenly, causing the

crash. He injured his shoulder, and

suffered concussion and whiplash and

was forced to withdraw from the race

so we hope he recovers well. Thank

you, Hugh. More sports news from

Hugh throughout the morning.

It should have been a Tuesday night

like any other in capital this week.

Except two people were stabbed

to death in the space of two hours.

Less than a mile apart

in Camden, in north London.

Abdikarim Hassan was 17

and Sadiq Adan Mohamed was 20.

Tragically, Sadiq's

brother was also fatally

stabbed back in September.

He too was twenty years of age.

The brother's "devastated" mother is

calling for an end to knife crime.

Lost two sons!

You have lost two sons.

Two sons, five months.

Two stabbings.

Yes.

My sister's son.

And you've said they

were both good lads,

educated, is there any chance

they could have had enemies,

could have been involved in gang

culture of any kind?

No, no, no.

Do you think enough is being done

to tackle knife crime?

No.

In my borough, Camden, all the boys

go on streets with a knife.

Since the start of the year,

and we're only now in February,

there have been SIXTEEN fatal

stabbings in the capital.

Five of those were teenagers.

It comes as knife crime nationally

has increased rapidly

over the last few years.

There were a total of 80 deaths

from stabbings in 2017 -

the most in almost a decade.

So what's going on?

And what can, and should, be done

to stop the rise in knife crime?

Let's speak now to victims,

campaigners and politicians to see

what ideas they have

to tackle this growing issue.

Alison Cope, whose son Joshua

was fatally stabbed aged 18 in 2013.

Paul Barnes, whose son Quamari

was stabbed to death last year aged

15.

Paul has been on the programme

before, his son was 15 when he died.

Claire van Helfteren

from Capital Conflict Management -

an organisation that mediates

between gang members.

Shaun Bailey, a Conservative

London Assembly Member.

Dal Babu - former Chief

Superintendent, Metropolitan Police.

Alika Agidi-Jeffs, who grew up

around gangs as a boy,

two of his friends have

been stabbed to death.

Louise Haigh, Labour MP

and shadow policing minister.

Elena Noel, trustee of the charity

Growing Against Violence.

Thank you all for coming on the

programme. Alison, I would like to

begin with you. Tell our audience

what happened to your son.

My son

Joshua went out to a party on Friday

night and never came home. He was

followed and said the club and

stabbed once in the heart. Fought

hard to stay alive but died on

September 21 in 2013.

How do you

cope with that?

I survive. Time

hasn't made it better. I do my best

and I put my grief into keeping my

son's name alive and talking about

him in prisons in the West Midlands

and around the country.

Google talk

about your work further today

because you think that has an effect

and stops people carrying knives

which is the whole purpose of this

conversation. Paul, thank you again

for coming on the programme. You

have spent the last year adjusting

to the loss of one of your children.

Can you describe what that is like?

Very hard. Especially when you see

more kids losing their life the same

way. Nothing has changed in the last

year. It's getting a lot was out

there. It is hard to get over the

death of my son, nothing has been

done about it.

Is that what people

generally feel, that nothing has

been done about it?

Things are being

done but unfortunately it's kind of

overshadowed by the fact that it is

still not enough. I feel and

unfortunately there's a lot of

tokenism, one small thing getting

down and then the people in power

who can do more going, well, we've

done that. It's like doing 1% out of

a hundred, and just saying, well, we

started. It's not enough for the

families.

Lots of organisations are

doing good work but if you look at

Scotland, they've actually reduced

crime...

Three weeks ago on this

programme we did look at what

they've done.

It's a coordinated

response. The problem with funding

is that everyone is fighting for the

same pot of money, they will maybe

hold onto it and not collaborate

with organisations which could be

helpful.

You focused on Camden in

your introduction Victoria, I worked

there for five years and I know it

well. I think what we need to look

at is not the funding of

organisations that are here but

looking at policing reduction costs.

Leasing has been reduced by over

Leasing has been reduced by over

20%.

Do you think there's definitely a

link between the reduction in

policing cuts?

There's been a

significant reduction in PC sales

and the number of police officers

reduced, it's an issue across the

country. It shouldn't just be about

policing. It should be about how we

coordinate other issues so I'm very

disappointed in Ofsted who should do

more to safeguard our children in

schools. It's just appalling that

they don't have the leadership to do

that. Because we need to change the

way we deal with knife crime in the

way we dealt with bullying. 30 years

ago no school would admit to a

bullying problem, now every school

has a bullying policy. I don't know

a single adult who hasn't been

bullied. We need to put that

pressure on Ofsted.

And just want to

bring in Shaun Bailey, Conservative

London assembly member. I have you

what the government has been doing

regarding knife crime. In the spring

that launching their new serious

violence strategy because they say

tackling knife crime needs a new way

of thinking. So they are consulting

on creating offences to prevent

knives being sold online, making it

an offence to possess certain

offensive weapons in Private, and so

forth plus various bits of money to

organisations and fans. What do you

say to what the former Chief

Superintendent from the Matt says

about reductions in police, -- from

the Metropolitan Police, and the

link between that and rising knife

crime?

I would say it's the culture

of young people in general, but the

second thing, about the police, we

currently have slightly more police

than we had in 2013 which was the

low point from a numbers point of

view, of young people dying in

London so I don't see the direct

link between resources in the same

way that the former officer did.

That's not true, that's not true.

When I left the police in 2013 there

were 32 1/2-dozen. We are now on

30,000. The trajectory used to go

down... We need to look at figures

please. Page two and a half thousand

to 30,000, is what you say is not

true. The figures have gone down.

Here's my point, it's the

relationship the police have with

the communities that suffer from

knife crime at most. The

relationship is no better now, stop

and search is rejected because it

should be supported, it's an

important way to make sure people

just can't carry a knife around, and

you get some intelligence that the

police can use. Those elements of

the puzzle to solve the problem not

there. There are a number of things

that no one activity will solve this

problem, a number of things that

need to be done, the enforcement pot

is important but not the only part.

You have to accept that police

numbers have gone down.

The

relationship between the police and

the communities that suffer from

this, the number stabbed a fact

that.

All communities are suffering.

There's not one kind of community

that's suffering. So that's not

really an argument.

Knife crime

isn't this you for all Londoners.

It's about families all around the

country.

Excuse me. It is a concern

for everyone but particular

communities suffer from it in the

most. The black community.

I don't

agree. Because I am white and my

son, you know, he wasn't black.

It's

unfortunate that the black community

are dying more. And to stem that

without any relationship between

them and the police...

Solution lies

that the two things I want to add.

What the police were doing they

forgot was adding more officers from

all different backgrounds. That was

working when they started it, they

need to go back to that. The other

solution is, I feel like, they need

to make knife crime and bigger

offence, if not as much an offence

as carrying a gun because it has

proven that knives are more

dangerous than guns. Why are they

not treated alike in law?

I feel we

may have jumped a couple of steps.

I'm not criticising you, we've got

plenty of time, honestly. We are not

just going to scratch the surface of

this issue. We haven't addressed why

people are carrying knives. Louise?

The fundamental bedrock of our

policing model in this country,

while it is envied the world over,

has been destroyed because

neighbourhood policing has been

decimated. As you rightly said this

isn't just a London problem. Last

year violent crime in the

Metropolitan Police increased by 2%,

in South Yorkshire 62%. It is a huge

issue across the country. You can't

look at that outside the context of

the decimation of neighbourhood

policing. Two thirds of PCS owes in

London and cuts to all those other

preventative and early intervention

services, 350 million taken out in

the last two years, we've taken away

the ability of the police to enforce

the issue but we are also taking

away all those schemes and services

that looked at early intervention.

That's critical. Early intervention

and prevention. Statistics around my

crime, it is more prevalent in

younger aged children now. They are

getting involved in it.

How young?

From seven.

Seven-year-olds are

carrying knives?

They are, getting

involved in and around criminal

activity?

To you know that for a

fact, seven-year-olds carrying

knives?

I remember hearing that.

Why? Fear?

Peer pressure as well?

Inability to manage conflict. We are

not teaching our children how to

manage conflict, in schools or our

terms of the reaction is to pick up

a knife. We did not start? For me,

someone who has seen both sides of

it, social media and mental health.

It's a vast thing that it

encompasses a lot of it with regard

to the fact that a lot of people are

being ignored and social media is

showing them extreme images that can

desensitise them. And mental health,

being able to cope with the peer

pressure, and knowing that if the

person down the road is threatening

you with a knife you don't have to

pick up one. Things like that.

Whether it be a prison, a school,

senior school, have to thousands and

thousands of young people and asked

them why they carry knives?

Protection, production, protection.

We are feeding our in people through

technology. It's scary. And

unfortunately, not everyone but we

have a new Society of young people

growing up through social media. If

they go on the news and see

programmes like this about knife

crime in London and Birmingham, they

are frightened and a lot of them are

walking away from home into areas

that the government should be

ashamed of. They need to invest in

those areas, adds to the police,

make young people feel safer,

support the ones who are struggling

and help the families.

I will then ask what they are

afraid. I live in London, I'm a

mother of two sons aged 18 and 24

and every evening they go out I

cannot sleep till they come home. I

worry if they are safe or not and I

am so relieved when I hear the keys

turn on the loch. Living in London

has become a nightmare for many,

young people and parents alike. Many

people I talk to now want to leave

London or the UK. Ordinary people

have been left behind and concerns

neglected. If young people in

Chelsea and Mayfair were stabbing

one another, I'm sure more would be

done. We have become a sad, callous

and divided country. This text says

give the police to do the power they

do their job. Young people have no

respect for the police. They must be

able to stop and search anyone they

like without fear of being labelled

racist. Nobody cares unless they can

be seen to be a liberal thinker.

Time to wake up and get law and

order back on the streets before we

need the Army. The Labour Mayor of

London, Sadiq Khan, talked about

increasing stop and search and I

have the quote somewhere. Louise, is

that the answer?

I think stop and

searches are really important tool

in fighting knife crime. I used it

several times as an officer and

there have been concerns about

numbers slipping back because police

officers don't have the confidence

to use it because they fear if there

is not a result at the end of it

they will be criticised or hold true

for an internal complaint. Officers

need to have the confidence to it

but it has to be intelligence led

and within the law and within best

practice.

It also needs to be done

in partnership with the communities.

In Southwark, as co-chairman of the

safe neighbourhood board, we had a

lot of community dialogue about the

fact that we are one of the

borrowers with the highest levels of

knife crime but also that what the

caveats -- one of the borrowers. We

need to have the engagement with the

community because there are issues

of disproportionality. And there is

a broad consensus with some.

Haringey Council, Camden, we started

a thing with the Metropolitan Police

showing them how stop and search can

be done that would be acceptable for

young people and how it feels for us

and then Haringey and Camden did the

same and it was successful. They

need to focus back on that, invest

in the community. The answers are in

the community that they need to work

with them.

Are you saying that a

rise in stop and searches will help

tackle knife crime?

Definitely.

To

echo that point, stop and searches

have to be done well so you have to

look at how police are trained and

how young people are instructed will

stop they have body cameras now, so

how often are they use? Stop and

search sends a powerful message

saying you cannot walk around armed

and you will be stopped. The police

can do more directed stop and search

because the injustice of it is how

disproportional it is that you are

being stopped and what to being

stopped for. The police find great

support when they do stop and search

around knife crime, but it's when

they do other things it breaks down.

Shaun is absolutely right. The body

cameras have made a huge difference

because police officers understand

that they will be viewed. But I want

to focus on one point and the issue

of technology. It is absolutely

appalling the way that Google have

allowed you chew banned videos of

violence -- you chew have allowed

videos of violence -- YouTube.

They

say they try to take them down.

They

are not doing enough.

Are you saying

predominantly young men are going on

to various websites and channels to

have a look at violent videos?

Even

the females.

They send them.

It is

setting a culture of fear firstly,

everybody else is armed, so I'd

better be, but it's also a culture

of this respect. The only way to

negotiate with someone is to affect

them heavily. There is a show show

peaks -- eight social peace we have

to do.

It highlights the problems

within communities and families. We

are a blame society. We blame the

parents Tom why aren't the parents

doing enough? I understand and

appreciate that are not all parents

have the resources and capabilities

to do the best they could be doing

and we need to support these parents

if they are struggling with many

things, poverty, depression, it's

going to be very hard to guide

children in the way they should be

and we need to be helping them to be

better parents. Watching all these

things that are negative, they have

a voice in the background saying it

is not OK. Unfortunately that is

missing in many households.

If you

talk to young people and the ones

who come out of the other end of

getting involved in gangs, the ones

that have security to fall back on

our 100% more likely to come out the

other side.

What to fall back on?

Is

it your family background or someone

who cares about them. When we talk

about knife crime we bring out

ex-gang members and whilst they have

a powerful story to tell the story

that is not being told, that is the

young man who made different

choices. Why aren't we asking them.

How did you make those different

choices? How did you get involved in

illegal activity, drug dealing.

What

is the answer? You are a young man,

I conceive.

The answer to that is,

again, it is the family support. The

first Meyer carried a knife my mum

and sister saw it and I remember the

slap around the head I got and the

explanation of it doesn't matter how

many bullies there are at school,

you talk to us and deal with it.

That is simply the answer. But to

add on what you said, it's totally

right when people try to blame the

parents. I always say the analogy

is, if a child gets taught to plus

two equals three, do you blame the

child or who taught them? They can

have the best background but if

social media, if they see on a

normal basis from their friends, the

world, you cannot protect your child

from the world but if they are still

pushing that let it be pushed that

it is normal, somebody getting

slashed or hit with a chair, then

that will get into their psyche.

Do

you think the link with what you see

on social media was relevant to the

death of your son?

Social media was

the main part. This boy came from

the other side of London and had no

way of connecting with each other.

It starts trouble. It gets kids into

arguments and they seem to want to

carry it on.

We have mediated a

large number of situations where a

group of boys have put up a video

disrespecting another group in

another part of London and four boys

have ended up being stabbed over a

social media video.

It goes deeper

than that. It goes to the mental

well-being of young people. We talk

about mental health and its

associated baggage, but what about

the mental well-being?

Social media

is allowing people to do that.

Why

that is important is if you can have

a young child who goes out into the

world and we tried to build their

resilience. What social media

actually is is a tool to express how

they feel full -- feel. If they

can't communicate across London,

they will do it to people across

London. What is normal? How does a

job reject a bad mode of behaviour?

Explanation. Education. Education

for communities, the young people.

It has to be coordinated.

When you

talk to young people about what

happened to your son, do you say to

them, and you must not carry a

knife?

Never. What I do, or try and

do, I see 19-year-old young men

wiping tears from their eyes because

I've suddenly taken this fake

existence and reality to their heart

and home because what you see and

do, let's take a step back here, you

go out with a knife, your choice,

you go out with a knife and stab

someone and that's your choice. Who

is the one person you leave behind

at home when you make the choice?

Their brain thinks, I live with my

mum, my Nan, my sister. You flip it

and make them feel. Young people

don't want to be told. They are sick

of being told how to behave. Don't

do this, don't do that. We need to

show and lead by example and help

them.

On schools, like you are

saying, they teach about going to

get condom is, but they should be

teaching about where to go when you

need mental support or rather than

bringing in metal detectors in

school, bring back peer mentors who

work in the school. If we talk about

knife crime, even on a programme

like this, unfortunately some young

people, the message they get is that

knife crime is scary so I need to

protect myself. But if you lead by

example, I did an event when I was

starting youth work, it was

basically dancing instead of

stabbing and the stabbing happened

in the event. And we called it just

dance, there was no stabbing next

time. You are subconsciously pushing

it.

They suffer from low

self-esteem.

Which young people?

The

ones involving knife crime. They are

carrying knives to feel better? It

is about self-esteem, low

confidence, peer pressure and not

having people around them to help

them to reflect and think about what

they are doing.

Chelsea tweets that

while knives are easily accessible

many youngsters are susceptible to

being stabbed. Youngsters need

reprogramming, mentally. This text

says more community police officers

and local knowledge is the key. Tony

on Facebook says tougher sentences.

Anyone caught carrying a knife, five

years and no less.

It is more

dangerous than a gun. I used to go

to cadets and that is the first

thing they teach you, knife is more

dangerous.

What would Labour do

about tackling knife crime?

You

mentioned the Scotland example and

all of these things are true but

Scottish children are accepted to

the same type of pressures but not a

single Scottish young person was

stabbed to death last year so they

have taken the coordination role and

treated as a public health issue

rather than a criminal justice

issue.

They have looked at mental

health, background etc?

They say

they want to have the safest and

healthiest generation of young

people and all it takes is political

will. Scotland have been subject to

the same level of cuts to the rest

of the UK.

You would put more money

into this area? A public health

issue rather than just criminal?

Don't all talk over each other. No

point.

There are a few things. We

need to continue the early

intervention and prevention work

that is in schools with younger

children and older ones, so that is

an ongoing programme.

No one would

disagree with that, but who will pay

for it?

I would be more than happy

to pay taxes for that. When I was in

Camden who worked innovatively with

the local authority and had Sir

Quentin Blake, long who spoke to

gang members, the children's

illustrator and it stop the violence

between these gangs and we took a

group of children to Belfast.

What

did he say to them?

They were more

interested in seeing him and he

talked about the unpleasant

characters he drew and he talked

about doing good and this is not the

kind of opportunities these children

would normally get. You could hear a

pin drop while he sat there and drew

the figures. We took the children to

Belfast and they could see the

impact of the violence between

Catholics and Protestants so we need

to be more innovative. I am really

keen to make sure we put some

resources, more resources, paying

more and having greater taxation and

giving money to the wonderful work

people here are doing.

I am going to

pause there because our time is up.

Messages from people watching you

from around the country, Hayden says

stop knife crime by getting young

people back into community services

in positive role model roles. Ban

the sale of knives to anyone under

the age of 25 and have metal

detectors in schools and stop

children playing overrating crime

games. Chuck says gangs thrive on

poverty and despair and operate is

low policing. The government have

created the fertile environment that

gangs need to lure the

disenfranchised. Tim says, many of

the same parents that are tragically

lost their children to knives have

desensitised their children by

buying them non-age-appropriate

games where killing with knives is

fun and entertainment. Society is

also to blame for allowing this to

happen. Chopping, machete attacks,

sat in isolation in their bedrooms

has been normalised. What do you

think of that?

I agree, that part of

the work I do is to show a video

game which shows the choice of a

knife or a fist and they laugh.

Because that is what they are used

to, but then I take it to the next

level and take it from a game to

reality. It is an education for them

that it it is not real.

We

definitely need to work more closely

with Scotland and to what they did.

A government statement, every death

from knife crime is a tragedy and

this government is determined to

break the deadly cycle and protect

our children and communities. It

requires a new way of thinking. Our

strategy will be published in the

spring...

How many more young people

will die before that is my point. My

son was killed four and a half years

ago and he's not the last person to

be stabbed, he's one of many, many,

many. The government release

something that they are not

listening to what actually works.

I

will have to pause you there, really

sorry. Thank you all for coming, I

really appreciate your time. Thank

you. The latest migration figures

are just out and net migration has

fallen by 29,000 two 244,000 in the

year to last September. New figures

just out, second set of full data

since the UK voted to leave the EU

in June 20 16. Still short of the

government target to reduce net

migration to the tens of thousands.

Net migration is the difference

between people coming to the UK

figure or more and those leaving

Britain. So it is estimated to have

fallen to 244,000 in the year to

last September.

Martha Lane Fox - the entrepreneur,

digital activist and founder

of lastminute dot com -

wants to sort out the internet.

A big job.

Today, she's calling

for an ombudsman for the internet

who would enforce rules to make sure

standards are upheld and would also

be the person people would turn

to when things go wrong.

We'll talk to her in

a moment about that.

But first here's everything

you need to know about her.

Lastminute.com is one of the UK's

leading tech entrepreneurs. Never

far from the limelight, she has been

a high profile campaign of remaining

in the EU, encouraging more

boardroom diversity and increasing

female representation in the texts

sector. She came to prominence after

finding lastminute.com, offering

cheap holiday deals and fast became

the UK's largest travel website,

when it was sold and was followed at

£577 million. But in 2004 she

suffered a personal setback when she

was injured in a near fatal road

accident in Morocco resulting in

multiple operations and a long spell

in hospital. From 2009 to 2013

mother worked for government as the

UK's Digital champion, advising

ministers on how to increase

efficiency by providing services

online. She then became the youngest

female member of the House of Lords

where she sits as a crossbench peer

and later a non-executive director

of Twitter. In the 2016 referendum

she campaigned to remain and is now

part of the newly launched is it

worth it campaign which asks if the

UK would be better off staying in

the EU despite having voted to

leave. The campaign argues that the

public has the right to change its

mind and reverse the decision if it

sees fit. Mother is still one of the

most influential voices in the UK

tech sector and advises on how the

Internet should be governed. She

founded a think tank which tries to

reduce inequalities brought about by

technology. And she is with me. Good

morning. Let's talk about this

server you've done, you spoke to

2500 people about the Internet, some

on line, some on the phone, what did

people generally feel about it?

It

was interesting that no one had done

this before, I spend a lot of time

asking people how they feel about

the Internet and no numbers had been

put at that were statistically

significant. It is good that it is

fair, there were some headlines, the

first, not surprisingly, most

people, over 50%, value what the

Internet offers. We know that 90% of

people use it every day, whether

searching for things, buying things,

comparing deals, looking at maps,

all the things you know well. The

thing that really surprised me,

though, was the even though the

majority of people said they could

see the benefit to them, only 12%

said they could see the benefit to

society at a macro level. That's

quite a disparity.

Why are people

worried about the effect on society?

A bunch of things. No doubt that in

the last year know there has been

what people are calling a tech -

lash. Sudbury view in what -- a sort

of a review of the way companies

operating. It's hard to get a handle

on this stuff. It's not like you can

see it, go into a high street and

get a sense of how did they treat

their workers, you good web page and

it is hard to know what is behind

it. People are becoming increasingly

concerned with that lack of

visibility.

Having read the report,

one quote really. A number of codes

stood out. Someone said, in other

industries, somebody rips you of you

go to the ombudsman. I don't know if

there's one for the Internet, there

isn't, if there is one, who is it?

So that lead you to call for an

independent regulator.

This is quite

a nuanced issue. There are places

you can go but I think people don't

know about them so you can go to the

Internet Commissioner 's office, you

can go to the Ombudsman, there are

consumer rights organisations as

well, but and is confusing and

messy. You only have to look at,

let's look at serious crime online.

The police get overloaded with

people coming to them when to no

fault of any ones they don't have

the expertise to sort this out. It's

hard to know whether it is serious

or not serious. Anything from, I am

nervous about what has happened to

my data to, I want to complain about

what went wrong with this

transaction. It pays into a bigot

picture of, we need to help all our

policy to understand the Internet

and make it fit for purpose and 2018

and that is a big challenge for

society.

Is not about lessons in

schools?

It'll take a long time to

come through. I sit in Parliament

and my perception is that to the

fold to know one, it is just

experience, hard for people who are

making laws and influencing those

who make laws to have had the

experience of the Internet that I

have had because I've worked in it

all my life and yet I'm still often

confused! So how can we help people

in the public sector have a higher

level of digital understanding? And

one thing we want from the report is

to encourage the government to think

about how it can help its own

employees to understand the Internet

but all of us at a more macro level.

You mentioned at the beginning that

it has had a strongly positive

impact on our lives as individuals.

And that is a good thing. We need to

remember that in all the time we

talk about the worrying thing.

Absolutely right, be lucky, I've

worked in technology all my working

life. I think back to the early days

of lastminute.com. People did not

really believe that people would but

there are credit cards into the

Internet. And now look at what you

can do. Even listening to, people

talking about knife crime, the fact

that social media can get messages

out there, these are all

extraordinarily positive things.

It's important to remember that.

I've worked on helping people who

don't have access to the Internet

and getting access to the Internet,

we still are digitally divided

society. It's a force for good but

we can help make it more responsible

and help us as citizens and users

feel more sure and confident about

the things that we are doing.

I

would like to ask you about Twitter.

It was recently revealed that your

Twitter account had been buying

followers. What action have you

taken?

I can't talk about the

company, as a director but I can

tell you about this. I had someone

working for me a few years ago who

mistakenly thought it was a good

idea to buy some rich. I don't think

she knew she was buying something

that was fake. We don't work

together any more. I take

responsibility for this. It was a

large arrow. Part of a larger

problem about how companies are

building up this idea that you can

get access to people and therefore

have more eyeballs in front of what

you say, that is marginally smaller

is you in my own personal history.

Thank you for talking to. Martha

Lane Fox.

Coming up,

we'll be discussing last night's

surprise results at the Brit Awards.

British album of the year goes to

Stormzy.

The South London grime star had a

great night, will tell you about all

the winners and losers. New net

migration figures have been

released, the number of people, net

migration, that is, the disparity

between the number of people leaving

the UK and coming to the UK has

fallen by 20 9000. Danny Shaw is

with me. What's the total now?

Net

migration, the difference between

numbers coming to live here for

Europe or more or leaving is still

244,000, well above the government

target of less than 100,000, still a

long way from meeting that target.

Net migration has fallen by 29,000,

though, so it is dropping a bit.

When you look more closely at the

figures, you are seeing two distinct

things going on. What you are seeing

is a slowdown of people coming to

live in the UK from other EU

countries, although the net figure

is still high, at 90,000, but it is

the lowest for six years. Net

migration, still more people coming

from the EU then leaving from the EU

but lower than it has been for many

years. What is really interesting is

that the number leaving the EU from

the EU countries -- leaving the UK

from the EU is now at its highest.

That suggests there is a real

Brexodus here following the vote in

the referendum. Yet what we are

seeing conversely, this is

interesting and it might worry the

government because they are trying

to bring down net migration, we are

seeing the number of people from

outside the EU coming to Britain

going up.

And the government can

control that in a way that they

can't with the EU citizens because

we are still a member of the EU.

Outside EU people are not subject to

freedom of movement, restrictions

are placed but it does suggest that

companies that might be struggling

to recruit people from the EU are

turning their attention to those

nations outside the EU. So those

figures of people coming here from

outside EU are now at their highest

level for around five or six years.

Thank you, Danny.

What a night it was at the Brit

awards. Here and highlights.

Ladies and gentlemen welcome

to the Brit awards 2018.

# Yo Theresa May where's

the money for Grenfell?

# What, you thought we just

forgot about Grenfell?

# You're criminals and you've got

the cheek to call us Savages

# You should have some chill time,

you should pay some damages

# You should burn your house down

and see if you can manage this.

Stormzy!

Thank God because that's

the reason why I'm here.

Stormzy!

We made something that

I feel is undeniable.

I can stand by it today,

Gang Signs and Prayers, album of the

year.

I love you guys, thank you so much.

Dua Lipa!

Here's to more women on these

stages, more women winning

awards and more women

taking over the world!

Dua Lipa!

I wanted them to

experience it first hand.

I love you.

In a tribute to the people

we so sadly lost that day but will

always live on forever in our

hearts, in our minds and in our

memories, please welcome

onstage Liam Gallagher.

# We'll see things

they'll never see,

# You and I are going to live

forever #.

It is so amazing to see so many

women tonight wearing the rose.

We're very proud be women.

Considering our size, we do

incredible things in music, you know

what I mean.

We've got a real spirit

and a real soul.

And don't let politics get

in the way of all of

that.

Ed Sheeran.

# I'm in love with

the shape of you #

The global success has

come from all the record

labels that I work with

around the world.

The person who kind

of keeps that together is a

girl called Gabby Cawthorne.

This one's for Gabby,

thank you so much.

This one's for Gabby,

thank you so much.

Let's get the latest

weather update.

I am bored with this freezing

weather. You're bored? Look at

whether Caldwell comes from from

Monday, a lot of freezing weather

across a lot of Europe, and that air

coming towards us. It's getting

colder next week with the chance of

seeing snow as well.

These are the

main headlines for the weather next

week, it's important, this is why

I'm telling you about it, called

with the bitter wind making it feel

colder, widespread frost overnight,

sharp frost and that chance was no

which we will firm up over the next

few days. One worth watching. You

might think it is chilly today, but

it will get colder, most places will

remain dry, showers of Northern

Ireland and West Scotland with the

wind picking up. This afternoon

temperatures which between four and

seven Celsius, the breeze picking up

towards the south of the UK to

Northern Ireland and western

Scotland so it will feel more chilly

in the breeze. Tonight some areas of

cloud, lengthy clear spells

developing, that will allow timber

just a fall, with the exception of

Northern Ireland into western

Scotland, Greece and cloud will keep

the temperature up, compared with

elsewhere, several degrees below

freezing for some of us going into

tomorrow morning, maybe the

occasional fog patch, most of us

will avoid that. Tomorrow, areas of

cloud, sunny spells, most places

will be dry, the breeze picking up a

little further, that will make it

feel cold even though temperatures

tomorrow are similar to today. The

bitter cold weather comes next week.

Hello it's Thursday, it's 10

o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

A major study of anti-depressants

says that they are effective

and that many more people

across the UK could

benefit from taking them.

We'll hear the experiences of people

who've taken the medication.

We'll be asking what affect it it's

had on their lives.

President Trump says giving teachers

guns might be the answer to help

prevent future mass shootings

in the US.

This would only be for obviously

people who are adept at handling a

gun and it is called concealed carry

more wary teacher would have a

concealed gun on them -- where a

teacher.

We'll be speaking to two

survivors of the Florida

high school attack

to get their views

on the President's idea.

Also this morning, people

convicted of offences linked

to domestic abuse are more likely

to be jailed under new guidelines

for courts in England and Wales.

After two more fatal stabbings

of young men in London,

there's a call for more to be done

to take knives off the streets.

It's very hard when you see more

kids out there losing their life the

same way, and nothing has changed in

the last year. It is getting a lot

worse out there. It's hard to get

over my son's death, but nothing is

being done about it.

Scientists say they have settled one

of medicine's biggest debates as a

huge study...

It would help if I had a microphone,

wouldn't it? Apologies for that.

There we are. Hopefully you can hear

me now. Scientists say they have

settled one of medicine's biggest

debates after huge study concluded

that antidepressants do work. The

research found common

antidepressants were more effective

at reducing symptoms of depression

than dummy pills. Giving teachers

guns could help prevent further

school shootings in the US, that's

the message from President from. He

also called for more background

checks on people's dying -- buying

guns. The UN Security Council will

vote on a draft resolution later

demanding a month-long ceasefire in

Syria. The report suggest more than

300 people have been killed in the

Eastern Ghouta area near Damascus

since Sunday. The UN Secretary

General described the situation in

the rebel enclave as hell on earth.

Theresa May will seek to overcome

differences on Brexit

among her senior ministers today.

She'll be chairing a meeting

at Chequers intended to hammer out

the cabinet's position on future

relations with the EU.

Net migration, the difference

between people coming to the UK

for a year or more and the number

of people emigrating from Britain,

has fallen in the year

to last September.

New figures show net migration

dropped by 29,000 down to 240 4000.

It's the second set of data

released by the Office

for National Statistics

since the 2016 EU referendum.

Centrica, the owner of British Gas,

said it would cut 4000 jobs over the

next two years. This morning, the

company, which employs around 33,000

people, announced a big fall in

profits and said that British Gas

had lost nearly 10% of its UK

domestic customers last year. People

convicted of domestic abuse offences

in both England and Wales will be

more likely to go to prison under

new sentencing guidelines. The first

time, the guidance will say domestic

offences should be treated more

seriously than similar crimes which

don't involve family members or

partners. The new guidance will also

extend domestic abuse to include

threats on social media.

A month of strikes affecting 64 UK

universities and a million

students begins today.

Lecturers are walking out over

changes to their pensions,

which they say could leave them

up to £10,000 a year

worse off in retirement.

Their employer, Universities UK,

says the pension scheme has

a 6 billion pound deficit

which can't be ignored.

Grime artist Stormzy picked up

the award for best British male

at the Brits last night,

and had a strong message

in his performance.

# Yo ,Theresa May where's

the money for Grenfell?

# What, you thought we just

forgot about Grenfell?

Stormzy also won the award

for best British album,

while the singer, Dua Lipa,

scooped Best British Female,

as well as the breakthrough award

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

More at 10.30.

This e-mail from Peter is about

knife crime and our conversation

earlier. Very simple to treat the

increase in knife crime, a three up

to five year jail sentence for

carrying a knife. It worked for

handguns. There is no reason for

anyone to have a knife unless you

are a chef on the way to work. Jane

says, based on how many knife crimes

have occurred during this week, it

is appalling and horrifying.

Unfortunately -- unfortunately

things are not improving. Ray says

we let children play video games

where the object is to kill the

enemy by whatever means possible and

then they want to think this is the

way to survive the streets. Do keep

those coming in, especially if you

have personal relative experience.

You will be charged standard network

rate.

Here's some sport now with Hugh.

The Team GB men could not match the

women by reaching the semifinals of

the curling competition at the

Winter Olympics in South Korea. They

had one last chance to survive,

play-off against Switzerland but

they were beaten 9-5 despite being

ahead with just two ends to play.

The Swiss did something you don't

see too often, scoring a 5-point

stone in the end to advance.

Disappointment for Team GB and a

medal hope gone after taking a

silver in the event four years ago.

We came in the first Olympics and

gave it our best shot and we made

the play-offs but in the end we had

a good game today but it was not to

be, sadly. A couple of things did

not go our way, a couple of half

shots, and that's all it takes

against a team as good as them so

there is plenty to look forward to

going forward and we just need to

take some time and reflect on this

experience and what we can take from

it.

There was some positive news for

Dave Riding who finished ninth in

the men's slalom and vowed to come

back and challenge for a medal in

Beijing in four years' time. He

believes he can return to do the

same as today's gold medallist and

perform to a gold medal standard at

the age of 35. There was a tense

finish to the women's ice hockey

final as the US won a dramatic

penalty shoot out in the women's

final, taking gold to stop Canada

from taking their fifth straight

title. The US keeper was the hero,

sparking wild American celebrations.

Very much the opposite today for one

Russian colour. He won a mixed

doubles bronze medal in the curling

alongside his wife but was stripped

of his medal after admitted to

doping. That will be a great story

for the IOC for the Russian sporting

officials -- that won't be. Away

from South Korea, Eddie Jones has

made one change to his starting 15

for the six Nations meeting with

Scotland at Murrayfield. Nathan

Hughes will make his first

appearance in the competition

replacing Sam Simmons in the back

row. Joe Mahler comes in on the

bench having missed the opening two

matches through suspension. That's

all the sport for now.

Antidepressants are affective and

many more people in the UK could

benefit from taking them according

to a major study. The analysis of 21

common antidepressants published in

the Lancet magazine showed they were

better at reducing symptoms than

dummy pills. We can talk to the

author of today's report, and also

with as is Carmina from the Society

of psychiatrist, and Steve Cullen is

with us, who used to take

antidepressants.

I will talk to first, if I may, you

are behind this study. Tell us what

you have discovered.

The

long-standing question was about

whether antidepressants work for

people with major depression and it

took six years to collect all

available evidence but now we can

say that antidepressants are

effective for moderate to severe

depression in adults. This is good

news for parents, carers and

clinicians.

How did you reach this

conclusion?

We analysed all

available data and when I say all

available data, it's not just the

published reports and studies, which

tends to be overinflated in terms of

the evidence in favour of drugs, but

we collected 52% of the data in the

analysis from unpublished data, so

this gives us the idea of how robust

is the evidence we found and we

compared all of the treatments with

quite an innovative methodology, so

we are able to compare all of the

treatments in the network one

against the other.

You found some

antidepressants were more effective

than others.

Among the

antidepressants, they are not

created equally, so some are more

effective and others are more

acceptable to patients.

But

effectively you are saying that

because of this, more people could

benefit from antidepressants.

Definitely. We know that a

prescription of antidepressants is a

tricky issue because they should

probably not be described to people

with mild depression, so there is a

risk of overs per -- prescribing

which still exists but it's more

important to treat people who can

benefit from this intervention, so

antidepressants RA tool that can be

used in clinical practice for other

treatments that are proven

effective.

In England alone, in

2016, there were 64 point 7 million

prescriptions for antidepressants.

The conclusion of this study is that

there should be more because people

can benefit.

We know that most

people with depression are not

currently seeking help, maybe only

one in five or one in six who suffer

from clinically significant

depression, people that because of

depression their life is impaired

but they don't seek help to get the

antidepressants. If we can help them

more we should prescribe more

antidepressants but we have to be

careful and make sure we only

prescribe them to people who really

need them.

As far as you are

concerned is this study good news?

Does it settle the debate about

whether antidepressants really are

effective or not?

It does.

You

probably thought that anyway, but

everybody else?

Absolutely. Over the

last ten years there has been some

controversy in the field and most

psychiatrists and mental health

practitioners would trust that

antidepressants are beneficial, but

there is some controversy within the

field, and I think this now puts the

controversy to bed, which is

important. You can be a patient who

wants to be on antidepressants in

the future and these are safe and

effective medications and we can

also understand more and move on to

the more important questions. Why

some antidepressants were better

than others, and what can we do for

people who do not benefit from them?

We have 21 drugs mentioned in the

study yet some people don't benefit

from any of them, so how can we help

those people?

We will talk to Steve

and David, both of whom have used

antique depressants. Steve, how did

they affect you? -- antidepressants.

The important thing with

antidepressants is getting the right

medication for each individual. What

works for one person won't

necessarily work for the next

person. And also with taking

antidepressants, you need a network

around you, whether it's a support

group, family members, and it's OK

taking medication but if you've not

got that support network around you

it won't work effectively. And vice

versa. If you've got the social

network around you but no

medication, that's not going to

work. So you need to balance both.

That's to get the maximum effect.

That is what has happened to me, and

when I first started taking the

antidepressants many years ago there

wasn't anything that works for me

and it took awhile to get the right

medication, by which time I had

accessed a support group in the

community, users group based in

Eccles which was set up by a group

of volunteers many years ago to help

people with mental health issues,

depression, schizophrenia, bipolar