27/02/2018 Victoria Derbyshire


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27/02/2018

The BBC's daily news and current affairs programme. Following the response to a live show from a Pupil Referral Unit, Victoria hears more stories from parents and former pupils.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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welcome to the programme.

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Our top story today: just one

centimetre of snow in parts

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of the south east of England,

yet it's still causing traffic

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chaos, with hundreds of trains

cancelled and many schools closed.

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I have to go to work tomorrow.

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My wife has to go to work.

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So if one of us has to call

in sick, we lose the money

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so hopefully the school

will be open.

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We've waited for snow

for three years.

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I'm desperate for it to snow!

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In Northumberland, there's been

eight centimetres of snow.

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We'll bring you the picture

from right around the country.

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Also on the programme: we can reveal

that Facebook have funded a project

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using their own Messenger app

to try to deradicalise extremists.

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It's never going to be enough simply

to take down content

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because there will always be either

grey areas, or more importantly,

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there will be people who are tempted

and interested in that path,

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regardless of what

content we take down.

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And actually finding ways

to engage with those people

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is really important.

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We'll bring you the full

exclusive story shortly.

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Plus, we had such an incredible

response from you to our programme

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live from a pupil referral unit

yesterday, that today

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we want to hear from you,

your experiences of PRUs,

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whether you were taught at one

yourself or your child goes to one.

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Please do get in touch throughout

the programme this morning

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and we'll speak to some

of you on air after 10am.

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Hello, welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am.

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Throughout the morning we'll

have the latest breaking news

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and developing stories.

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A little later in the programme,

we'll be hearing how another 100

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schoolgirls have been kidnapped

by the Boko Haram militant group

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in Nigeria and asking why it isn't

leading to another massive outcry.

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Do get in touch on all the stories

we're talking about this morning -

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use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today: snow is falling

across parts of the UK as cold air

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begins to sweep in from Russia.

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The Met Office has issued amber

warnings for large parts

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of the south east and north

east of England.

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Up to 10cm of snow is expected today

and as much as 20cm is predicted

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in some parts of eastern England,

Scotland and Northern Ireland

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by the end of Wednesday.

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Drivers are being warned

they could face major disruption.

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More than 200 trains

are no longer running,

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while British Airways says over 60

flights have been cancelled.

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We will hear from our correspondence

across the UK now.

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Phil Bodmer is in Stamford Bridge

in East Yorkshire.

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Tell us about the picture there.

Good morning, as you can see, it is

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snowing again in Stamford Bridge on

the edge of the Yorkshire Moors and

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it has been snowing off and on

throughout the morning. I have to

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say, this area is right in the

middle of one of the amber weather

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warning areas but we have not had

ten centimetres of snow predicted,

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however, that is not to say we won't

get it because this snow is quite

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heavy now. I have to say the main

A166 which links the Yorkshire coast

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with the major centres of Yorkshire

like Leeds and yorkers remained

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open, the gritting teams have been

out and we have seen snowploughs

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this morning. -- and York has

remained. The main problem seems to

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be an public transport and with the

airlines. If you are travelling

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abroad, the advice is to check with

your airline. On the trains, Network

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Rail are saying you should allow

extra time because they have been

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running trains through the night to

clear the rails. On the roads,

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Merseyside Police, the Northwest

motorway police and Lincolnshire

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Police all report accidents on

treacherous surfaces and they are

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warning drivers to take extra care.

Snow continuing to fall here in

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Stamford Bridge. My colleague Robert

Hall is in Ashford in Kent.

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Yes, we are right alongside the M20

so first of all, straight to

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Sambadrome pictures we shot about an

hour ago to give you the general

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situation, about five centimetres of

snow on the ground, just like in

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Yorkshire, it is coming and going.

Kent County Council declared what

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they called a snow emergency

yesterday, which basically meant

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they got every available gritting

truck on the road and they alerted

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farmers with snowploughs so the

country roads were covered. Broadly,

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the region's roads are running but

we have had difficulties on the M2,

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the M20, the A249 which is just to

the south-east of London at the

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north of the M20, they have big

hills up there so we had jackknifed

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lorries and car accidents and when

the car crashes happen, the gritters

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cannot come through and it needs the

traffic to make the salt and the

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great work. Once the traffic flows,

we expect things to improve. As to

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the trains, similar to the North.

They are changing the timetable,

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running longer trains, which

apparently are less likely to run

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into difficulties so the only issue

is really are that travellers are

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still complaining they are not being

told enough quickly enough which is

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something I am sure south-east

trains are looking at. School

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closures, yes, handful closed. I

think what everyone is saying is,

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what is on the ground now, with the

temperatures, is likely to say so if

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we get the heavy falls expected

later in the week, things will get a

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lot more difficult. Let's go to

ethics, Ben Ando in Colchester.

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Hello, the situation here is that

commuters were facing frustration,

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normally there would be dozens of

trains running from here to London,

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Colchester is a big commuter town

with lots of people heading into

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London to work. Many of those trains

had to be cancelled because Network

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Rail told the passenger train

companies like Greater Anglia, TfL

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or great Northern that they would

have to be running slower trains,

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there would be speed restrictions

and may be problems with points

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freezing up, all of these things

mean the service has to be reduced.

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The message seems to have got

through. There have been plenty of

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people coming to catch trains but

certainly not as many as normal and

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so by planning ahead and letting

people know there would be problems,

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it seems that perhaps some of the

difficult scenes with people barging

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to get onto trains have been

avoided. Going forward, the company

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says they hope to reinstate trains

is possible because certainly, the

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snow has not been as bad as forecast

but the freezing temperatures are

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continuing to cause difficulties and

that looks likely to be the case,

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especially with more snow forecast

later on.

Ben Ando in Essex, there

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are, Robert Hall in Kent and Phil

Bodmer in Yorkshire, many thanks. We

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will bring you the full weather

forecast just before 10am.

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Reeta Chakrabarti is in the BBC

Newsroom with a summary

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of the rest of the day's news.

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The former most senior civil servant

at the Department for International

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Trade has truly criticised proposals

for Britain to leave the EU Customs

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union. Sir Martin Donnelly, left his

post last year, said 60% of UK trade

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was either with the EU or the

countries it has agreements with. He

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said future bilateral trade deals

cannot compensate for leaving the

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customs union.

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If we look at where we are now

with fair and equal access

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to the very large, rich EU market

which is nearly half

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of our service and goods exports,

plus preferential access to other

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markets which gets us up

to about three fifths of our trade,

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if you are going to give that up

for the promise of some bilateral

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deals with markets that are much

less important to us,

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it is like giving up a three-course

meal for a packet of crisps.

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It is just not equivalent and we

have to recognise that reality.

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The BBC has learned that Syrian

women have been sexually exploited

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by local men delivering aid

on behalf of the United Nations

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and international charities.

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Two humanitarian agencies warned

about the abuse in 2015,

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but a new UN report shows that aid

is still being exchanged for sex

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in the south of the country.

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Danielle Spencer is a humanitarian

worker who conducted focus

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groups with these women,

and she spoke to our diplomatic

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correspondent James Landale.

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So they were withholding the aid

that had been delivered and then

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using these women for sex.

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So, this was a range of women, women

of different ages in the group.

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Some had experienced it themselves.

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Some were very distraught.

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I remember one woman

crying in the room.

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She was very upset.

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You know, women and girls

need to be protected

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when they are trying

to receive food.

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Meanwhile, a five-hour pause

in the Syrian government's assault

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on Eastern Ghouta has begun.

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The enclave has faced an intense air

and ground attack by pro-government

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forces for more than a week.

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Russia's President,

Vladimir Putin, has ordered

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the humanitarian pause

so that civilians can

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flee and humanitarian

aid can be delivered.

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The International Committee

of the Red Cross says aid

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organisations are ready to go

in as soon as possible.

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The US cable TV giant Comcast has

made a £22.1 billion takeover bid

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for Sky, challenging the existing

offer from 21st century Fox. Rupert

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Murdoch's 21st century Fox had

already agreed and £18.5 billion

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deal to buy the 61% of Sky it does

not audio in. Comcast, the biggest

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cable TV firm in the US, said it

wanted to use Sky as a black form

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for growth in Europe. -- as a

platform for growth.

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Facebook has funded a pilot

programme using its Messenger

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service to try to deradicalise

extremists.

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Users posting extreme far-right

and Islamist content in the UK

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were identified and contacted

in an attempt to

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challenge their views.

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But privacy campaigners have

criticised the initiative,

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suggesting the social media giant

was straying into surveillance.

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You can watch our exclusive

report in just a moment.

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This programme has been told that

convicted paedophile Barry Bennell

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was sacked as a youth football coach

at Crewe Alexandra a short time

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after parents confronted him

and threatened to call the police

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about his behaviour.

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64-year-old Bennell was given

a 31-year sentence for abusing young

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boys in his care ten days ago.

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Some of the victims were linked

to Crewe Alexandra, where Bennell

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was employed for seven years

until he left in 1992.

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The club has denied it knew

anything about his behaviour

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or the abuse and said he left

for footballing reasons.

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An armed police officer criticised

by Donald Trump after the recent

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school shooting in Florida has

defended his actions. Scot Peterson

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was outside the school when a gunman

killed 17 people. But in a

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statement, the officer's lawyer said

it was blatantly untrue that his

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client was a coward. The US

president says he would have gone

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into the school even if he had been

unarmed.

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You know, I really believe,

you don't know until you test it

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but I really believe I'd run

in there, even if I didn't have

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a weapon and I think most

of the people in this room

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would have done that too

because I know most of you.

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But the way they performed

was really a disgrace.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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After 10am, we are going to talk to

some of you who have experienced of

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pupil referral units. We are

focusing on them or this week. We

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were live yesterday for the whole

programme from a primary pupil

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referral unit in north-east London.

So many of you got in touch. We want

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to talk to you today wherever you

are in the country if your child

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goes to one, if you were educated at

one. This text from Kerry came in

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among the many messages about

yesterday, "Well done to all the

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teachers and children in the

referral unit on your programme. The

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teachers have shown what hard work

it is but how rewarding the job is,

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it just goes to show what

discipline, consistency and being

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calm in difficult situations can do.

I really take my hat off to the

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teachers. They are brilliant. "

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

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use the hashtag Victoria live

and If you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate.

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You can use WhatsApp, and Facebook

as well and we will feed your

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personal expenses into the

conversation.

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Time for the sport and we will start

to reaction to the death of a

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British boxer over the weekend.

Not

a discussion we like to have, those

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that work in sport, in fact a

discussion we would rather not be

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having but boxing has been put back

under the spotlight by another death

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at the age of just 31, Scott

Westgarth has become the third

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fighter to lose his life after about

in the last three years. It is a

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difficult discussion, there's over

1000 professional boxers in the UK.

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Incidents like this are rare. The

last three coming after a 15 year

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gap without a boxing related death

but I think when you see some of the

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crowds at fights, baying and

screening for knockout, it serves as

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a reminder to all of us that there

are real injuries and worse

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incurred. Since Scott Westgarth's

death, so many tributes but I've

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picked out a few on social media.

Tony Bellew, the former

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cruiserweight world champion, said

his condolences but added that he is

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forever telling people how dangerous

it is and he says he hopes people

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think in future before topping

insults divider. Former Northern

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Irish world Champion Carl Frampton

said it is a stark reminder of how

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dangerous the sport is. British

heavyweight David Price said a

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fellow fighter, a brother to all of

us, put it all on the line and paid

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the ultimate price. So sad. A

difficult time for the conversation

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to be had but a reminder that the

British Medical Association's stance

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on it is that boxing should be

banned, long held stance and Curtis

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Woodhouse, who was due to headline

on the evening of the fight, said it

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now makes him question the morality

of the sport.

It seems there could

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be a new sporting career on the

wafer Usain Bolt?

Plenty of teams in

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the country could do with an

injection of pace in their side! I'm

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not sure you can do much better than

the eight time Olympic gold

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medallist Usain Bolt, shorter but

the frighteners on any defence, he

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denounced this morning he will be

playing in this year's soccer aid

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match at Old Trafford in the summer.

He's a big Manchester United fan and

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says he once discussed the idea of a

trial with their former boss Sir

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Alex Ferguson. During his running

career, he was deluded enough to

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save himself for the track but now

he has hung up his spikes, good new

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sporting career beyond the horizon?

-- put a new sporting career.

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Robbie, let me entertain you!

You

can run but you can't hide.

Stick to

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singing and leave the football to

me.

Our very own Robbie Williams

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captained the England team and puts

on the match for the charity Unicef

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and he just answered Usain Bolt will

captain the world 11 so if you get a

0:15:260:15:31

ticket, you might see a unique bit

of sporting history, a Bold goal at

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Old Trafford. More sport later.

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Good morning, welcome to our

programme.

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Good morning, welcome

to our programme.

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Facebook is often criticised for not

doing enough to stop

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the spread of hate messages

but we can exclusively reveal

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that the social media giant has

been funding a project

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which saw their messenger system

used to try to de-radicalise people.

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Users posting extreme far-right

and Islamist content in the UK

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were identified and contacted

in an attempt to

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challenge their views.

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It's been criticised by privacy

campaigners as Facebook

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straying into surveillance.

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Our reporter Catrin Nye

had an exclusive look

0:16:150:16:21

at the project for us.

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So, first of all I'd

private message them,

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just ask them a few questions

on what's on their profile page.

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Would you have a look first

at what was on there?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Colin Bidwell is a

victim of terrorism.

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He's been paid to go on Facebook

using a fake profile

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and message extremists.

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It's part of a project funded

by Facebook themselves.

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I'd just let them know I don't

want to kill anybody,

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I'd like to talk to people to work

the issue out.

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In my case, I should

hate Muslim extremists,

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I'm lucky to be alive.

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So I thought I'd open up

and maybe explain about me.

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On holiday in Tunisia

in the summer of 2015,

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Colin saw dozens of people shot dead

on the beach he was sunbathing on.

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Someone firing a gun.

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Bullets flying everywhere.

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I had a lucky escape on that day.

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A lot didn't, but I did,

for some reason.

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I'm here today.

0:17:240:17:26

Be nice to people, whatever

your beliefs or religion

0:17:260:17:29

for me, it's simple.

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For this project, researchers found

people posting both extreme Islamist

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and far right material on Facebook.

0:17:340:17:37

Colin was tasked with talking

to the people posting

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extreme Islamist content,

people who may support the killer

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on the beach in Tunisia,

and challenging their views.

0:17:440:17:47

I just keep saying it,

you can have your extreme

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beliefs and everything,

but when it gets to the extreme

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violence, that's the bit

I can't understand.

0:17:530:17:56

I understand the issues

that are upsetting you.

0:17:560:18:04

Sadia has been doing the same.

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She's a former extremist herself.

0:18:070:18:09

We've changed her name

to protect her identity.

0:18:090:18:11

But, is this the way forward?

0:18:110:18:18

And what sort of thing

was on the profiles of the people

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you were speaking to?

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A lot of them were pictures of Isis

flags and they had a lot of lions

0:18:230:18:28

with the Isis memes on them.

0:18:280:18:34

There have been a series

of high-profile cases

0:18:340:18:39

of far right and Islamist

extremists radicalised online.

0:18:390:18:42

Big tech companies like Facebook

have been taking a kicking

0:18:420:18:46

from politicians, saying they have

to do more to stop extremism

0:18:460:18:49

littering their sites.

0:18:490:18:54

For this project, Colin

and Sadia were known

0:18:540:18:57

as intervention providers.

0:18:570:19:00

There were 11 of them and they fell

into three categories -

0:19:000:19:03

former extremists, survivors

of terrorism and

0:19:030:19:05

trained counsellors.

0:19:050:19:07

This was a pilot project

by an organisation that

0:19:070:19:10

specialises in extremism called

The Institute For Strategic

0:19:100:19:12

Dialogue, or ISD.

0:19:120:19:16

First of all, we identified Facebook

pages where people were expressing

0:19:160:19:20

support for extremist groups

and posting extremist content.

0:19:200:19:24

We then used software

to analyse the ways

0:19:240:19:28

in which people were engaging.

0:19:280:19:31

The researchers would then manually

look at Facebook pages to select

0:19:310:19:34

people posting very extreme,

far right and

0:19:340:19:37

Isis-supporting content.

0:19:370:19:41

What was the bar for someone to be

targeted, to be chosen for this?

0:19:410:19:46

So, we would look for people

who were using the most violent,

0:19:460:19:49

the most hateful, the most

dehumanising language

0:19:490:19:51

towards others.

0:19:510:19:54

Suggesting whole communities need

to be killed, need to be eradicated.

0:19:540:19:57

Allah followers are criminals

and need to be annihilated.

0:19:570:20:02

In all, 569 people were

contacted on Facebook.

0:20:020:20:06

112 people replied.

0:20:060:20:10

76 had a sustained conversation

and ISD claim that eight people

0:20:100:20:15

showed signs that the conversation

had a positive impact.

0:20:150:20:20

This is small numbers, experimental.

0:20:200:20:23

What was it for you that

says it did work?

0:20:230:20:28

The levels of sustained engagement

we saw a cross these categories

0:20:280:20:32

of individuals we were reaching out

to, are extraordinary.

0:20:320:20:37

We were trying to fill a really big

gap in responses to online

0:20:370:20:40

recruitment and radicalisation

and that gap is in the

0:20:400:20:43

direct messaging space.

0:20:430:20:46

There's quite a lot of work

being done to counter the general

0:20:460:20:49

propaganda with counter speech

and counter propaganda

0:20:490:20:51

and the removal of content.

0:20:510:20:58

But actually, we know extremists

are very effective in peer-to-peer

0:20:580:21:00

direct messaging and that's how

they're most effective.

0:21:000:21:03

And yet there's nothing,

no systematic work being done

0:21:030:21:05

to reach out on that basis,

on that direct engagement bases.

0:21:050:21:09

to reach out on that basis,

on that direct engagement basis.

0:21:090:21:12

That's the gap we've trying to fill.

0:21:120:21:13

Just worried about the future

for my children with all this

0:21:130:21:16

violence that's online.

0:21:160:21:17

The first contact I can remember,

it was just so intense.

0:21:170:21:20

I thought someone was going to jump

out of the screen or there would be

0:21:200:21:23

a bang at the door and someone

was going to try and attack me.

0:21:230:21:26

He really did frighten me, my first

contact, when I got a reply.

0:21:260:21:30

Do you think you are qualified

to do this kind of work?

0:21:300:21:32

I think I was a little bit

entitled to do what I did,

0:21:320:21:36

after what we've been

through and are still going through.

0:21:360:21:38

If there was the smallest chance

that I could make some form

0:21:380:21:41

of difference or awareness,

for me, I'm in.

0:21:410:21:43

I'm in.

0:21:430:21:46

I think I'm entitled

to ask those questions.

0:21:460:21:50

Why would someone want to take

another one's life, especially

0:21:500:21:52

if they are innocent.

0:21:520:21:55

Yeah.

0:21:550:21:57

That is different though, isn't it,

justification and qualification?

0:21:570:21:59

Yes, it is, it is.

0:21:590:22:02

I'm certainly not qualified.

0:22:020:22:05

I know I did quite well

on the programme, but may be

0:22:050:22:09

because everything was genuine,

I was asking from me.

0:22:090:22:13

You know, I wasn't taking it

from a book, I was taking

0:22:130:22:16

this from experience.

0:22:160:22:19

It's always me thinking how

would I speak to me,

0:22:190:22:25

and what would have made

me change my views.?

0:22:250:22:28

I had quite radical views

when I was in my teens.

0:22:280:22:31

I felt voiceless, I felt as though

there was an injustice that

0:22:310:22:34

no one was addressing.

0:22:340:22:37

And I can really relate

to these young people.

0:22:370:22:42

This project has raised serious

concerns for privacy campaigners.

0:22:420:22:45

They are very worried

about Facebook, a website that

0:22:450:22:49

advertises itself as a place

for friends to connect.

0:22:490:22:54

It's funding this kind of,

what they call surveillance.

0:22:540:22:56

Based on the headlines,

people might find it attractive

0:22:560:22:59

because it does seem to be a way

to counter something people

0:22:590:23:02

are very worried about.

0:23:020:23:04

But you need to be very careful

when you are dealing with issues

0:23:040:23:10

that really concern the public

in terms of their fear of extremism,

0:23:100:23:13

their fear for their own physical

well-being and that of their family,

0:23:130:23:16

Whether these things are affected.

0:23:160:23:19

I think it will make people

sceptical about the role of social

0:23:190:23:22

media organisations.

0:23:220:23:23

It will make people,

who are concerned about surveillance

0:23:230:23:26

and aware of the many ways it can

happen, either by companies

0:23:260:23:29

or by governments, more suspicious.

0:23:290:23:37

Like when are you not

being monitored?

0:23:400:23:42

Millie is especially worried

about the fact that Facebook funded

0:23:420:23:44

a project that broke its own rules

and created fake

0:23:440:23:47

profiles for this work.

0:23:470:23:48

To now allow fake profiles

and people to infiltrate groups

0:23:480:23:50

and then speak to people,

changes the whole dynamic

0:23:500:23:53

of what Facebook is about.

0:23:530:23:57

Facebook didn't give the people

running this project any

0:23:570:24:00

special access to the site,

but they did fund it.

0:24:000:24:03

Although they won't tell us exactly

how much they spent.

0:24:030:24:06

It's part of their wider

efforts to do something

0:24:060:24:09

about all the extremist material

on their side.

0:24:090:24:13

about all the extremist

material on their site.

0:24:130:24:15

At one of Facebook's London HQs,

I met the UK public policy manager.

0:24:150:24:18

Nice to meet you.

0:24:180:24:20

This way?

0:24:200:24:24

You allowed fake profiles

to be made for this work,

0:24:240:24:26

which is against your own rules,

how did you justify that?

0:24:260:24:29

So, it is against Facebook's rules

to use fake accounts on our platform

0:24:290:24:32

and we wouldn't advise anybody to do

so, even if they are engaged

0:24:320:24:35

in this kind of activity.

0:24:350:24:40

Not least because our tools may well

disrupt their activity.

0:24:400:24:42

But it's confusing, simultaneously

disrupting some, allowing others.

0:24:420:24:44

It makes the rules very unclear.

0:24:440:24:47

So, I would say we don't allow fake

accounts on our platform

0:24:470:24:51

and we don't advise people to use

fake accounts at all

0:24:510:24:53

in any circumstances,

because they will be disrupted.

0:24:530:24:56

But you did here?

0:24:560:24:59

As I say, the research techniques,

exactly what the researchers did

0:24:590:25:02

in this circumstance was done

independently of Facebook.

0:25:020:25:07

We provide advice and support on how

they could for example,

0:25:070:25:11

communicate better with people,

but the kinds of trends

0:25:110:25:18

communicate better with people,

the kinds of trends

0:25:180:25:20

we were seeing and we provided

resourcing in particular to this

0:25:200:25:22

organisation to do this work.

0:25:220:25:24

But the research techniques

and exactly what they did

0:25:240:25:26

is a matter for them.

0:25:260:25:27

The Prime Minister has said recently

that she wants extremist content

0:25:270:25:30

removed from Facebook

within two hours.

0:25:300:25:31

This project relies on that

extremist content to stay there.

0:25:310:25:36

How do you balance those two things?

0:25:360:25:40

We are completely aligned

with her in the fact that we must

0:25:400:25:43

remove that content as quickly

as possible from our platform,

0:25:430:25:45

because it can circulate very,

very quickly and we know the damage

0:25:450:25:49

that it can cause.

0:25:490:25:52

It's never going to be enough simply

to take down content,

0:25:520:25:56

because there are always going to be

either grey areas, but more

0:25:560:25:59

importantly, there's going to be

people who are tempted

0:25:590:26:03

and interested in that path,

regardless of what content we take

0:26:030:26:06

down and actually finding ways

to engage with those people

0:26:060:26:08

is really, really important.

0:26:080:26:11

While running this project

there were a number of instances

0:26:110:26:13

when researchers came across content

of views that were very extreme.

0:26:130:26:17

They had a protocol

for dealing with that.

0:26:170:26:22

I think there are concerns over who

exactly is carrying out this work.

0:26:220:26:25

Even if the organisation itself may

have been involved in doing

0:26:250:26:28

research over many years,

does not mean they are qualified

0:26:280:26:30

to carry out this quasi law

enforcement surveillance role.

0:26:300:26:33

How do you know you weren't

making things worse?

0:26:330:26:35

You could create an environment

where people are even more

0:26:350:26:38

suspicious of organisations

like yours.

0:26:380:26:42

Firstly, we are not government,

we are a civil society

0:26:420:26:45

organisation and I do believe

there is an absolute need

0:26:450:26:47

for more civic response

to hateful ideologies.

0:26:470:26:52

These are people posting publicly

again, not privately, publicly.

0:26:520:26:57

That Speaker's corner,

they are coming out on public pages

0:26:570:26:59

and saying things like,

all Muslims are a virus

0:26:590:27:01

and need to be stamped out.

0:27:010:27:05

So you can either sensor that,

perhaps they go off

0:27:050:27:09

into an underground space online

and become even more

0:27:090:27:12

activist and radicalised.

0:27:120:27:15

You can ignore it and it

will fester, it will likely grow

0:27:150:27:18

and we see it growing.

0:27:180:27:21

Or, you can try and engage it

to see if you can walk

0:27:210:27:24

them back from the edge.

0:27:240:27:28

Did you have people ask detail

about who you were basically,

0:27:280:27:32

who you were working for,

what you are doing?

0:27:320:27:35

Strange thing is,

most people didn't.

0:27:350:27:39

There was an almost,

this immediate trust.

0:27:390:27:43

I was coming from a genuine place,

but it was worrying there

0:27:430:27:46

are so many people out there that

are not, hence the possible reason

0:27:460:27:52

that recruiters of Daesh

have been so successful.

0:27:520:27:57

But they didn't know

obviously their conversations

0:27:570:28:01

would be seen by an organisation

like ISD and that they'd be part

0:28:010:28:04

of a research project?

0:28:040:28:08

No, nobody asked anything of that

nature, but I did say that

0:28:080:28:12

I was there to try and dissuade them

from holding those particular views,

0:28:120:28:17

because they were dangerous.

0:28:170:28:20

They didn't know the research part.

0:28:200:28:23

If someone being spoken

to specifically asked,

0:28:230:28:27

the intervention providers

would admit they were working

0:28:270:28:30

for ISD, but they wouldn't

say that upfront.

0:28:300:28:34

Every time someone found out

that the person they were talking

0:28:340:28:38

to was working for you guys,

every single one of those didn't

0:28:380:28:40

want to talk any more?

0:28:400:28:42

Yes, that's right.

0:28:420:28:43

That shows this is not consensual.

0:28:430:28:46

There's a lot of stuff that happens

on social media that isn't

0:28:460:28:49

necessarily consensual.

0:28:490:28:52

Again, these are not individuals

we've reached out to because we've

0:28:520:28:55

somehow had a look under the bonnet

into private spaces.

0:28:550:28:59

We see, we have access to and we see

whatever you are able to see online,

0:28:590:29:04

whatever any member of the general

public is able to find online.

0:29:040:29:08

These are public postings.

0:29:080:29:10

This is speaker's corner.

0:29:100:29:14

When they asked explicitly, why

they were being engaged in this way,

0:29:140:29:17

we always told them the truth.

0:29:170:29:20

Which was, that this was part

of a programme we were running

0:29:200:29:24

to counter extremism.

0:29:240:29:27

If they were pushed on it,

they would admit but initially

0:29:270:29:29

they would try and carry

on the conversation using the fake

0:29:290:29:33

identity and if I'm speaking

to someone using a fake

0:29:330:29:35

identity, its deception.

0:29:350:29:39

Again, they were speaking

to their personal experiences.

0:29:390:29:45

So I pushed back on the idea

this is real perception.

0:29:450:29:53

So I pushed back on the idea

this is real deception.

0:29:530:29:55

These are all individuals speaking

to their own real-life experiences.

0:29:550:29:58

Reaching out on an empathetic basis

to engage in dialogue.

0:29:580:30:00

So, in that sense I don't

think its deception,

0:30:000:30:02

but you are absolutely right

that these are challenging issues.

0:30:020:30:08

Going into people'sFacebooks

using a different identity,

0:30:080:30:11

do you see why this kind of work

would be very controversial?

0:30:110:30:15

I can see why it would be,

but we have to be in this space

0:30:150:30:19

if we are going to challenge these

views, which are

0:30:190:30:23

extremely dangerous.

0:30:230:30:29

We need to use people's expertise

to try and be at the very

0:30:290:30:33

place and the very heart

of where radicalisation happens

0:30:330:30:36

and if we're not there,

then you will get worse.

0:30:360:30:42

and if we're not there,

then it will get worse.

0:30:420:30:44

It's a cancer and it

needs to be tackled.

0:30:440:30:52

More on this after 10.

0:30:530:30:56

Still to come.

0:30:560:30:58

A former Crewe Alexandra player

tells us paedophile coach

0:30:580:31:01

Barry Bennell was sacked by the club

after parents confronted him

0:31:010:31:09

about his behaviour in 1992.

0:31:110:31:14

That is despite the club saying they

knew nothing about it until he was

0:31:140:31:18

convicted of offences in the USA two

years later.

0:31:180:31:22

And after our special programme

yesterday from a pupil referral unit

0:31:220:31:25

for primary school children,

we want to hear from you about your

0:31:250:31:28

experiences of PRUs.

0:31:280:31:30

Were you were taught at one,

or does your child go to one?

0:31:300:31:33

Get in touch in the usual ways.

0:31:330:31:37

Time for the latest news,

here's Reeta Chakrabarti.

0:31:370:31:43

The headlines this morning. Heavy

snow is hitting parts of the UK,

0:31:430:31:47

causing road and rail disruption and

school closures. The Met office has

0:31:470:31:51

issued amber warnings for large

parts of the South East and North

0:31:510:31:54

East of England. Up to ten

centimetres of snow is expected

0:31:540:31:59

today and as much as 20 centimetres

is predicted in some parts of

0:31:590:32:02

eastern England, Scotland and

Northern Ireland by the end of

0:32:020:32:04

Wednesday.

0:32:040:32:04

Like "giving up a three-course

meal for the promise

0:32:040:32:07

of a packet of crisps".

0:32:070:32:08

That's the view of the former most

senior civil servant

0:32:080:32:10

at the Department for

International Trade on proposals

0:32:100:32:12

for Britain to leave

the EU customs union.

0:32:120:32:14

Sir Martin Donnelly,

who left his post last year,

0:32:140:32:16

said 60% of UK trade was either

with the EU or the countries the EU

0:32:160:32:20

has agreements with.

0:32:200:32:23

If we look at where we are now

with fair and equal access

0:32:230:32:28

to the very large, rich EU market

which is nearly half

0:32:280:32:31

of our service and goods exports,

plus preferential access to other

0:32:310:32:37

markets which gets us up

to about three fifths of our trade,

0:32:370:32:41

if you are going to give that up

for the promise of some bilateral

0:32:410:32:44

deals with markets that are much

less important to us,

0:32:440:32:47

it is like giving up a three-course

meal for a packet of crisps.

0:32:470:32:51

It is just not equivalent and we

have to recognise that reality.

0:32:510:32:59

A five-hour pause in the Syrian

government's assault

0:32:590:33:01

on Eastern Ghouta has begun.

0:33:010:33:06

It is reportedly being largely

observed. The respite was ordered by

0:33:060:33:10

Russia, which said it would be

repeated daily to allow civilians to

0:33:100:33:14

leave the besieged Anglais. --

besieged enclave.

0:33:140:33:20

Facebook has funded a pilot

programme using its Messenger

0:33:200:33:23

service to try to deradicalise

extremists.

0:33:230:33:24

Users posting extreme far-right

and Islamist content in the UK

0:33:240:33:26

were identified and contacted

in an attempt to

0:33:260:33:28

challenge their views.

0:33:280:33:29

But privacy campaigners have

criticised the initiative,

0:33:290:33:32

suggesting the social media giant

was straying into surveillance.

0:33:320:33:38

That is the latest.

Thank you for your comments, Gemma

0:33:390:33:45

has detected this, "I went to a

pupil referral unit from year nine

0:33:450:33:48

to 11 and all it takes is one person

to really believe in you for you to

0:33:480:33:53

start believing in yourself. I loved

my experience. I went on to

0:33:530:33:57

university and now work with young

people who also attends PRUs". Clare

0:33:570:34:02

says, "Brilliant to watch a

programme about PRUs, I worked in a

0:34:020:34:06

local one to 15 years and it was the

most rewarding, satisfied, stressful

0:34:060:34:10

and inspirational job. The children

were fantastic and it was so good to

0:34:100:34:14

be part of their developer and

success in moving back into

0:34:140:34:19

mainstream schools". And Adams says,

"I chaired the management committee

0:34:190:34:25

of three PRUs, they do terrific work

which is often unsung". We will talk

0:34:250:34:29

to some of you right around the

country after 10am, who have

0:34:290:34:34

experience of PRUs. We are focusing

on the more this week. Time for the

0:34:340:34:38

sport.

After their embarrassing defeat in

0:34:380:34:40

the League Cup final, Arsenal legend

Ian Wright has said there's no place

0:34:400:34:43

for manager Arsene Wenger to stay in

charge of club. Arsene Wenger is

0:34:430:34:47

nearly into his 22nd year in the

role but Ian Wright says he is more

0:34:470:34:52

-- mollycoddling the team that has

lost half of its matches in 2018. As

0:34:520:34:56

Scotland look to follow up their

huge six Nations win over England,

0:34:560:34:59

they could be without key man Ryan

Wilson for the rest of the

0:34:590:35:02

tournament if he is punished for

making contact with the eye of an

0:35:020:35:05

England player on Saturday. British

boxer Curtis Woodhouse says he may

0:35:050:35:09

not fight again following the death

of Scott Westgarth after about at

0:35:090:35:13

the weekend. He says it's left

questioning the morality of the

0:35:130:35:17

sport. And a time Olympic gold

medallist and big Manchester United

0:35:170:35:21

Van Usain Bolt will fulfil a dream

in June when he played at Old

0:35:210:35:24

Trafford, captaining a world level

in this year's Soccer Aid match

0:35:240:35:28

where he will take on Robbie

Williams' England side. More sport

0:35:280:35:31

after 10am. Good morning.

0:35:310:35:34

This programme can reveal that

convicted paedophile Barry Bennell

0:35:340:35:37

was sacked as Crewe Alexandra's

youth coach days after parents

0:35:370:35:44

confronted him and threatened

to call the police

0:35:440:35:46

about his behaviour in 1992.

0:35:460:35:51

That is despite Crewe insisting they

knew nothing about his behaviour

0:35:510:35:53

until 1994.

0:35:530:35:55

Our reporter Jim Reed

has been investigating.

0:35:550:35:57

Morning, Vic.

0:35:570:36:00

Barry Bennell was convicted of

historical offences against young

0:36:000:36:03

boys two weeks ago now and he is

currently serving 31 years in prison

0:36:030:36:07

for the offences.

0:36:070:36:09

There are still questions that need

to be answered though.

0:36:090:36:12

Not least whether the clubs involved

should have done more,

0:36:120:36:14

much more, to stop the abuse.

0:36:140:36:16

The team most closely linked

to Bennell is Crewe Alexandra.

0:36:160:36:24

It employed him as a youth coach

for seven years until 1992.

0:36:250:36:28

Now we've been speaking exclusively

to a former youth team player

0:36:280:36:31

who was there when

Bennell left the club.

0:36:310:36:33

Barry Bennell, being driven

into court for the last time.

0:36:330:36:38

The 64-year-old was given a 31-year

sentence for abusing

0:36:380:36:44

young boys in his care,

his fourth jail term

0:36:440:36:46

in three decades.

0:36:460:36:48

How can it be that no one realised

something was wrong?

0:36:480:36:51

How is it that no one

protected us then?

0:36:510:36:55

Seven of the 12 victims

in the most recent case

0:36:550:36:57

were linked to Crewe Alexandra.

0:36:570:36:59

The club has always denied it

knew anything about his

0:36:590:37:02

behaviour or the abuse.

0:37:020:37:05

Well, firstly, I remember him

being a really good football coach.

0:37:050:37:09

I started in 1989 and he

was our coach at the time.

0:37:090:37:15

Now in his 30s, Matt played

for Crewe's youth team for a decade.

0:37:150:37:19

We've changed his name

and voice because he wants

0:37:190:37:21

to protect his family's privacy.

0:37:210:37:23

He rang my mum and dad and he said,

"The boys have done really well

0:37:230:37:26

at training this week so I'd

like to give them

0:37:260:37:29

a little bit of a treat.

0:37:290:37:32

So they are going to come round

and there's going to be five or six

0:37:320:37:35

who are going to come around

the house and stay over".

0:37:350:37:38

Matt did stay over that night.

0:37:380:37:39

He wasn't abused but

knows boys who were.

0:37:390:37:41

Then suddenly, he says,

with no explanation,

0:37:410:37:43

his youth coach simply vanished.

0:37:430:37:44

We then went back into training

as we normally would.

0:37:440:37:48

I think it would have been

a Thursday and a new coach came

0:37:480:37:51

in and Barry Bennell had obviously

just upped and left.

0:37:510:37:54

Crewe has never said

how Bennell left

0:37:540:37:58

the club in 1992, only

that it was for footballing reasons.

0:37:580:38:01

This programme understands

he was sacked and replaced days

0:38:010:38:04

later by Steve Holland,

now England's assistant manager.

0:38:040:38:08

Matt says his mother later told him

a group of parents had challenged

0:38:080:38:11

Bennell about his behaviour

around young boys.

0:38:110:38:14

There was a group of parents

who confronted Barry

0:38:140:38:16

because there were rumours.

0:38:160:38:20

One of the dads in the group had

said his son had gone to him

0:38:200:38:24

and he had been touching his son.

0:38:240:38:25

I'm not sure of the exact

circumstances behind

0:38:250:38:27

that but they did say

they were going to go to the police.

0:38:270:38:30

Shortly after that alleged

confrontation, we understand

0:38:300:38:32

Bennell left the country,

flying to the USA, where he bought

0:38:320:38:36

and ran a video store near Atlanta.

0:38:360:38:39

It's not known if the parents'

concerns were raised with the club

0:38:390:38:42

or then-manager Dario Gradi,

who is still director

0:38:420:38:44

of football at Crewe.

0:38:440:38:48

A few months later,

in May of that year,

0:38:480:38:51

Matt's parents received this letter

from Dario Gradi

0:38:510:38:53

on headed notepaper.

0:38:530:38:55

It said:.

0:38:550:38:58

There's no evidence that letter

was suggesting abuse

0:39:130:39:17

by Bennell but it is very

clear that by that stage,

0:39:170:39:20

officials at the club did not

want their young players associating

0:39:200:39:22

with the coach.

0:39:220:39:24

Even if they didn't know, Crewe

as they club have an obligation

0:39:240:39:27

Even if they didn't know,

Crewe as a club have an obligation

0:39:270:39:30

to come out and apologise and say,

"We were in charge at the time

0:39:300:39:33

and this happened".

0:39:330:39:35

They had a responsibility to protect

us at the time and I don't think

0:39:350:39:38

we were protected enough.

0:39:380:39:39

All of this comes after

Crewe Alexandra's former managing

0:39:390:39:43

director, Hamilton Smith,

told us he raised concerns

0:39:430:39:47

at a board meeting in the late '80s

but no real action was taken.

0:39:470:39:50

Everybody involved could have done

and should have done a lot more.

0:39:500:39:55

The club declined to

comment on the letter

0:39:550:39:57

or the player's account.

0:39:570:39:59

Other officials there have always

denied they knew about the abuse

0:39:590:40:04

until after Bennell left the club.

0:40:040:40:06

Just to ask again, were you aware

at any point of what he was doing?

0:40:060:40:10

No.

0:40:100:40:11

How do you feel about the fact

he was doing those things

0:40:110:40:13

when you were chairman?

0:40:130:40:15

Infuriated.

0:40:150:40:18

In a statement after the latest

trial, Crewe said it did not receive

0:40:180:40:22

a single complaint about sexual

abuse at the time and if the club

0:40:220:40:25

had any suspicions

about Barry Bennell,

0:40:250:40:27

it would have informed

the police immediately.

0:40:270:40:35

Last night, Crewe's top officials

met fans for the first answer is

0:40:350:40:41

Barry Bennell's conviction.

Yes,

they hold fans Forum every year at

0:40:410:40:47

Crewe Alexandra, 250 fans with

tickets get to meet the manager, the

0:40:470:40:50

chairman, other members of the board

and so wanted this -- and so on to

0:40:500:40:56

discuss football and what else is

going on at the club. It was held

0:40:560:40:59

last night at Gresty Road, the Crewe

ground. We asked to go along but we

0:40:590:41:03

were told no journalists were

allowed to attend, it was just for

0:41:030:41:07

the fans. There were reports

security on the door had a piece of

0:41:070:41:11

paper with photos of journalists on,

and reporters that have worked on

0:41:110:41:15

the case, two apparently deny them

entry if they tried to get in or use

0:41:150:41:21

of force name and so on. In the

event, though, there were three

0:41:210:41:25

questions last night about Barry

Bennell, a man we can show you

0:41:250:41:29

pictures of come here, new pictures

of Barry Bennell we have obtained.

0:41:290:41:34

The chairman was asked about the

scandal last night and declined to

0:41:340:41:38

answer, he said he can't add any

more at the moment because of what

0:41:380:41:41

he said was an ongoing legal

process. At one point, the BBC

0:41:410:41:47

commentator who commentates on Crewe

games asked the chairman about the

0:41:470:41:51

claims by Hamilton Smith, the

managing director, former managing

0:41:510:41:56

director you heard in the report.

Again, he said no comment. Most of

0:41:560:42:00

the questions were about football,

though, the club currently 18th in

0:42:000:42:06

League 2, the fourth tier of the

football Borley, so fans angry about

0:42:060:42:14

the team's performance on the pitch

as well.

0:42:140:42:18

So many of you got in touch with us

yesterday to talk about pupil

0:42:180:42:22

referral units.

We are going to talk

to you after 10am. This e-mail says,

0:42:220:42:28

"My youngest son went to a pupil

referral unit and I said then, why

0:42:280:42:33

can't all schools teach children the

same as you do, here? I thought it

0:42:330:42:37

was very good as they gave children

choices on how their behaviour

0:42:370:42:41

impacted on their free time and

eventually my son went back into the

0:42:410:42:45

traditional school system"

0:42:450:42:48

eventually my son went back into the

traditional school system". One of

0:42:480:42:48

the reasons might be the cost. In

some places in England, it costs

0:42:480:42:56

£48,000 to educate one people for

one year in a pupil referral unit

0:42:560:43:00

although it is less expensive in

other parts of the country.

0:43:000:43:08

Hawkswood, where we were yesterday,

takes up to 40 children who have

0:43:080:43:12

been excluded from mainstream

education between the ages of four

0:43:120:43:15

and 11. The reason we were there was

because we discovered a big rise in

0:43:150:43:18

the numbers of primary age children

in England being educated at PRUs,

0:43:180:43:23

up 34% over the last four years.

Some other interesting facts for

0:43:230:43:28

you, it costs £4000- £5,000 to

educate one people each year in

0:43:280:43:33

mainstream school and in PRUs, it is

a lot more as we just said but even

0:43:330:43:38

those costs vary wildly. Kirklees,

£48,000 per year, whereas in

0:43:380:43:44

Lancashire, it is £12,000 per year,

plus the average length of stay in

0:43:440:43:49

Abbott varies, in Bury, it is 15

weeks before a child reintegrate

0:43:490:43:53

back into their old primary school,

Andy Candin in London, it is over

0:43:530:43:57

two years. The aim for every child

is to go back to mainstream school.

0:43:570:44:02

Many of you got in touch to talk

about your own child your own

0:44:020:44:07

child's expenses at PRUs and we will

get in touch later. We get in touch

0:44:070:44:13

later.

You have people who care

around you who help you, she helps

0:44:130:44:19

most of the children here and they

kind of get that vibe that you are

0:44:190:44:23

in a safe environment and it helps

you mentally and physically because

0:44:230:44:30

it helps you rent a great into

mainstream school.

OK.

Say me, when

0:44:300:44:37

I used to be in my mainstream

school, I used to keep coming out

0:44:370:44:41

and getting excluded and stuff but

now I am here and in this special

0:44:410:44:45

School, it gives you extra help and

it has re-helped me understand it is

0:44:450:44:50

better to go back and reintegrate.

-- it has really helped me.

What do

0:44:500:44:57

you think of it, here?

It is nice

and safe. It has helped me a lot

0:44:570:45:07

from when I first came here, I

didn't like it but now I do

0:45:070:45:14

especially they give me help with

everything and it is a very

0:45:140:45:19

disciplined school.

Jacob, how long

have you been here?

About a year.

0:45:190:45:28

When I first started here, I was

having trouble behaving and I was

0:45:280:45:33

making lots of wrong choices.

That

is what you used to be like?

Yeah,

0:45:330:45:41

but now if there is somebody like

annoying me or something, I would

0:45:410:45:45

just ignore them and I would just

stay away from them if I know that

0:45:450:45:52

they are going to create trouble or

something and if one of my friends

0:45:520:46:00

is trying to tell me to do something

wrong or something like that, I

0:46:000:46:03

would ignore him and say no. I know

that is a wrong thing and I should

0:46:030:46:08

not do that.

That is the kind of

thing you teach them?

Definitely

0:46:080:46:13

come you are reintegrating, this

week is your last week.

Yes.

You are

0:46:130:46:19

going back to old school?

Yes, I've

only got today, Friday and Monday is

0:46:190:46:24

my last day.

How does that

I am a

little anxious

-- had is that feel?

0:46:240:46:34

I'm a little anxious but I've come

very far and I've worked hard to

0:46:340:46:40

reach this point.

0:46:400:46:42

Children are children and they are

so young still and we have to give

0:46:480:46:51

them a chance. This is our future

generation and we cannot write them

0:46:510:46:56

off at primary school age. It is not

right or fair. We are not saying

0:46:560:47:01

their behaviour choices are

acceptable and OK, but we are saying

0:47:010:47:05

they need help and additional

support and that is what we do for

0:47:050:47:08

them. Once they have affected

change, then they need to have the

0:47:080:47:13

chance to be able to be part of

society the same way every other

0:47:130:47:17

child has that chance to do the same

thing.

In your view is there always

0:47:170:47:24

an explanation for poor behaviour?

Yes. There are many reasons. We say

0:47:240:47:31

there is a trigger. Behaviour is

communication, said there is always

0:47:310:47:36

a reason why. The reasons may not

always be seen as desirable to

0:47:360:47:40

people but there is always a reason.

It can be a learning need, it could

0:47:400:47:45

be they are on a spectrum and not

yet diagnosed, it could be a

0:47:450:47:49

parental issue, some of that is

affecting their home life, there are

0:47:490:47:54

so many different issues that we

need to drill down to what is going

0:47:540:47:58

on or has gone on for these children

and try to help them and support

0:47:580:48:01

them.

No one necessarily said

anything to me that you can feel the

0:48:010:48:08

pressure and the eyes staring and

him being the odd one out in school,

0:48:080:48:15

the troublemaker. I did not talk to

the other parents about it, but I

0:48:150:48:19

always felt the stigma attached to

him.

Other parents look at you as

0:48:190:48:25

well.

As though you are a bad

character?

Some parents come to you

0:48:250:48:31

and say, your child has done this

and stuff like that. It is really

0:48:310:48:35

horrible.

Everyone knew Logan. What

was he doing? He would throw chairs,

0:48:350:48:46

he would kick, he would lie down on

the floor kicking and screaming. He

0:48:460:48:51

had to be taken out of class because

of it. He would be very aggressive.

0:48:510:48:57

Why do you think that was?

Lack of

structure, lack of understanding for

0:48:570:49:04

him. When he was in necessary they

said to me, Logan is having

0:49:040:49:08

behavioural problems, is there

anything we can do? I said yes, this

0:49:080:49:12

is what we do at home and they

listen. But when it came to the next

0:49:120:49:18

school they didn't listen. I can't

do that, I have got 30 other

0:49:180:49:22

children to look after.

They thought

maybe it was us, we were doing

0:49:220:49:29

something wrong. We took him to a

specialist, we had him tested, they

0:49:290:49:34

could not find anything wrong. The

referral came to hear and my wife

0:49:340:49:40

was adamant we were not going to

bring him here.

Why?

Because of the

0:49:400:49:46

stigma and the feeling of dread that

this would be his life and he would

0:49:460:49:49

be coming to a place where he would

be long.

We will talk more about

0:49:490:49:57

that and some of you around the

country after ten o'clock. We will

0:49:570:50:01

bring you the weather forecast, news

and sport at ten.

0:50:010:50:06

In 2014, 276 mainly Christian

schoolgirls were kidnapped

0:50:060:50:08

from their government school

overnight by an Islmaist terror

0:50:080:50:11

group called Boko Haram which means

"no to Western Education".

0:50:110:50:17

For a while, their fate at the hands

of the militants with a history

0:50:170:50:21

of brutality towards women

was unknown, but many

0:50:210:50:24

feared the worst -

sold as slaves, raped,

0:50:240:50:26

forced to marry their abductors.

0:50:260:50:31

That mass abduction led

to a social-media campaign under

0:50:310:50:35

hashtag #BringBackOurGirls.

0:50:350:50:37

Michelle Obama was among the many

famous people who endorsed it.

0:50:370:50:41

Never let that happen

again was the message.

0:50:410:50:45

Four years on and another 100

schoolgirls have been kidnapped

0:50:450:50:49

by the same militant group and it's

barely causing any ripples.

0:50:490:50:53

Why?

0:50:530:51:00

Bukky Shonibare, who's the founder

of Girl Child Africa

0:51:080:51:10

and deputy chairperson

of Bring Back our Girls.

0:51:100:51:14

Tell our British audience about you

know what has happened to the 100

0:51:140:51:18

girls kidnapped last week.

And

attack was launched by Boko

0:51:180:51:28

attack was launched by Boko Haram on

a technical college in the

0:51:280:51:31

north-eastern part of Nigeria. That

attack lasted for some hours and it

0:51:310:51:36

was in the night of February the

19th, 2018. After that attack, the

0:51:360:51:42

next day there were reports released

by the local community that several

0:51:420:51:48

of the girls who attended that

government school had not been

0:51:480:51:56

accounted for, they were missing.

Some were said to have escaped, some

0:51:560:52:00

were said to have run back home,

some were said to be in the bushes.

0:52:000:52:05

But as I speak to you the official

figure has been put at 110 girls

0:52:050:52:09

from that school who have not been

found. The government also came out

0:52:090:52:17

to say that some girls had been

found and we were waiting for less

0:52:170:52:25

than 50 or so. Another denial of

that said that they had been misled

0:52:250:52:35

by a local intelligence person.

0:52:350:52:40

by a local intelligence person. Now

we are still talking about a hundred

0:52:400:52:48

who have most likely been abducted

by Boko Haram.

What sort of ages are

0:52:480:52:52

we talking about?

We are talking

about girls from the age of about

0:52:520:53:01

nine, ten, in up until teenage

years. We are looking at around 16

0:53:010:53:07

or 17. These are girls from junior

secondary school going to senior

0:53:070:53:14

secondary School three and that is

the age group for the girls going to

0:53:140:53:19

school in this part of the country.

There is such a lack of security in

0:53:190:53:24

some parts of Nigeria that it means

of this group, Boko Haram, can

0:53:240:53:29

pretty much do this when they

wanted.

Exactly. When we look at

0:53:290:53:35

what happened to the Chibok girls

almost four years ago, in a few

0:53:350:53:43

days' time it will be about five

years, at that time we said to

0:53:430:53:52

ourselves nothing like that had

happened before. But it put on the

0:53:520:53:56

table the lack of security in our

schools, especially when we look at

0:53:560:54:01

Boko Haram's mandate and ideology

that Western education is forbidden.

0:54:010:54:10

That group has always been attacking

such targets, girls' schools and

0:54:100:54:16

boys schools. One would expect that

we had learned the lessons from the

0:54:160:54:23

Chibok girls issue. There should

have been security and certification

0:54:230:54:32

of schools and communities where

these schools are situated. But

0:54:320:54:36

again this abduction, this attack

shows that schools are not safe

0:54:360:54:41

enough for our children, boys and

girls, as well as for teachers,

0:54:410:54:47

particularly in the north-east

region.

When the 276 girls were

0:54:470:54:52

taken from school in Chibok it

caused an international outcry. Some

0:54:520:55:00

were eventually, after time,

rescued. White do you think this has

0:55:000:55:05

not caused the same outcry?

The

Chibok girls issue received global

0:55:050:55:13

attention. Everyone was talking

about it. It was almost like the

0:55:130:55:20

coolest thing to do. People carried

the placard and wanted to be

0:55:200:55:25

identified with it. The girls'

abduction connected the world on

0:55:250:55:30

sheer humanity. Everyone was talking

about our girls, we personalised it.

0:55:300:55:40

We perceived that these girls could

be my daughter, my sister, my

0:55:400:55:44

cousin. People created that

relationship as the basis upon which

0:55:440:55:51

they engaged and advocated for our

Chibok girls. There was a

0:55:510:55:55

convergence also of social media

outrage where people walked in the

0:55:550:56:04

streets, especially the bring back

our girls movement which took place

0:56:040:56:08

throughout the world. But when you

now compare that to the abduction of

0:56:080:56:16

these girls, the outrage has not

been the same and disappointingly

0:56:160:56:19

so. I think the world is getting

used to these disasters. We are

0:56:190:56:25

getting used to the fact that girls

are being taken. Our narrative is it

0:56:250:56:34

is not as many as the Chibok girls.

We seem to be normalising what is

0:56:340:56:38

bad. We seem to be normalising what

is wrong. Maybe our hearts can no

0:56:380:56:46

longer deal with it. Maybe we think

it is far of. Maybe we are not

0:56:460:56:51

connected with that level of

humanity any longer.

0:56:510:57:01

humanity any longer. But I want the

world to mobilise for these girls as

0:57:010:57:05

they did for the Chibok girls.

Thank

you. The founder of Girl Child

0:57:050:57:14

Africa and the Deputy Chairperson of

Bring Back Our Girls.

0:57:140:57:25

We have got some cracking weather

pictures being sent in this morning

0:57:250:57:28

from our viewers.

0:57:280:57:33

from our viewers. This is some snow

on rooftops in Brighton. You can see

0:57:350:57:42

a bit more lying snow in this one.

What has been happening is we have

0:57:420:57:47

had heavy snow coming in across

northern England, pushing through

0:57:470:57:50

the Midlands and it is now

progressing to Wales and it will

0:57:500:57:54

clear by the time we get to the

early part of the afternoon. We have

0:57:540:57:58

some snow showers coming in across

South eastern England towards the

0:57:580:58:03

channel showers. If you are under

that line you might have as much as

0:58:030:58:10

three centimetres of snow fall, but

they are showers and if you are not

0:58:100:58:14

under that line, you might not see

the totals I have given you. Away

0:58:140:58:19

from these areas we are looking at a

fair bit of sunshine and some

0:58:190:58:25

showers in eastern areas. Wherever

you are today it will feel cold.

0:58:250:58:31

Through the evening and overnight we

continued the snow showers in the

0:58:310:58:34

South East heading down towards the

Channel Islands and later on in the

0:58:340:58:37

night, early morning, it will come

into southern Cornwall, Devon and

0:58:370:58:43

possibly Dorsett as well. It will be

a cold night, temperatures in places

0:58:430:58:49

where we have got lying snow and in

the countryside will be lower than

0:58:490:58:53

this, -8 or -9 potentially. By the

end of the night we have got more

0:58:530:58:58

snow in northern and eastern

Scotland, Central Scotland and North

0:58:580:59:03

East England. This is where the Met

Office has an amber be prepared

0:59:030:59:06

warning. Tomorrow we could have ten

centimetres of falling snow in

0:59:060:59:11

addition to what we have already

had. For some of us it will be more

0:59:110:59:16

than that. Away from the amber area

there will still be snow showers

0:59:160:59:21

around, but they will not be so

heavy. We have got snow in northern,

0:59:210:59:28

East, central and southern Scotland

and North East England. For the rest

0:59:280:59:32

of us a lot of the showers will

drift westwards through the day, so

0:59:320:59:36

brightening up in the south-east,

but there will be won or two showers

0:59:360:59:39

and it will be windy. Either

temperatures.

0:59:390:59:47

temperatures. It feels cold in

itself, but when you add on the wind

0:59:480:59:52

chill, it will feel bitter. -12

across Aberdeen for example. Then as

0:59:521:00:00

we head into Thursday this next

system, named by the Portuguese

1:00:001:00:03

weather service as Emma, it will

bring snow and strong winds.

1:00:031:00:09

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10

o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:00:121:00:17

Our top story today: snow and bad

weather is causing chaos in parts

1:00:171:00:21

of England and Wales with hundreds

of trains being cancelled, and many

1:00:211:00:23

schools shutting their doors.

1:00:231:00:26

Plus - this programme can

exclusively reveal that Facebook

1:00:261:00:30

has funded a project

which saw their Messenger

1:00:301:00:32

system used to try to

de-radicalise people.

1:00:321:00:36

I had quite radical views when I was

in my teens. I felt voiceless. I

1:00:361:00:44

felt as though there was an

injustice that no one was

1:00:441:00:46

addressing. And I can really relate

to these young people.

We will talk

1:00:461:00:53

about some of the issues raised by

the project after 10:30am.

1:00:531:00:58

And after the incredible response

to yesterday's programme

1:00:581:01:00

from a pupil referral unit -

we'll be hearing your

1:01:001:01:02

experiences of PRUs.

1:01:021:01:07

Good morning.

1:01:071:01:08

Here's Reeta Chakrabarti

in the BBC Newsroom

1:01:081:01:12

with a summary of today's news.

1:01:121:01:13

Heavy snowfall is hitting parts

of the UK, causing road and rail

1:01:131:01:16

disruption and school closures.

1:01:161:01:19

The Met Office has issued amber

warnings for large parts

1:01:191:01:21

of the south east and north

east of England.

1:01:211:01:24

Up to 10cm of snow is expected today

and as much as 20cm is predicted

1:01:241:01:28

in some parts of eastern England,

Scotland and Northern Ireland

1:01:281:01:30

by the end of Wednesday.

1:01:301:01:31

One of the areas affected is Kent,

where Robert Hall told us

1:01:311:01:35

there is some disruption

on the roads.

1:01:351:01:41

Kent County Council declared what

they called a snow emergency

1:01:411:01:45

yesterday. That basically meant they

got every available gritter on the

1:01:451:01:49

road and alerted farmers with

snowploughs so the country roads

1:01:491:01:52

were covered. Broadly, the region's

roads are running but we have had

1:01:521:01:58

difficulties of the M2, the M20, the

A249 which is to the north of the

1:01:581:02:04

M20 just to the south of London.

There are big hills in that area and

1:02:041:02:08

we had jackknifed lorries in

accident and as soon as cars crash

1:02:081:02:11

or lorries get stuck, the gritters

cannot come through and it needs the

1:02:111:02:16

action of traffic to make the salt

and the great work. -- and the grit.

1:02:161:02:24

Like "giving up a three-course

meal for the promise

1:02:241:02:26

of a packet of crisps" -

that's the view of the former most

1:02:261:02:29

senior civil servant

at the Department for

1:02:291:02:31

International Trade on proposals

for Britain to leave

1:02:311:02:33

the EU customs union.

1:02:331:02:34

Sir Martin Donnelly,

who left his post last year,

1:02:341:02:36

said 60% of UK trade was either

with the EU or the countries the EU

1:02:361:02:40

has agreements with.

1:02:401:02:41

If we look at where we are now

with fair and equal access

1:02:411:02:44

to the very large, rich EU market

which is nearly half

1:02:441:02:47

of our service and goods exports,

plus preferential access to other

1:02:471:02:50

markets which gets us up

to about three fifths of our trade,

1:02:501:02:53

if you are going to give that up

for the promise of some bilateral

1:02:531:02:57

deals with markets that are much

less important to us,

1:02:571:03:00

it is like giving up a three-course

meal for a packet of crisps.

1:03:001:03:04

It is just not equivalent and we

have to recognise that reality.

1:03:041:03:12

The Syrian government's assault on

the rebel held every of Eastern

1:03:141:03:17

Ghouta has come to hold for five

hours. The pause was ordered by

1:03:171:03:21

Syria's ally Russia who said it

would repeated daily to allow

1:03:211:03:25

civilians to leave the besieged on

flavour but no civilians have been

1:03:251:03:28

seen taking advantage of the

ceasefire to leave the area and

1:03:281:03:31

there have been claims which have

been denied that rebels have shelled

1:03:311:03:34

a humanitarian corridor. -- the

besieged enclave.

1:03:341:03:38

This programme has been told that

convicted paedophile Barry Bennell

1:03:381:03:41

was sacked as a youth football coach

at Crewe Alexandra a short time

1:03:411:03:44

after parents confronted him

and threatened to call the police

1:03:441:03:46

about his behaviour.

1:03:461:03:47

64-year-old Bennell was given

a 31-year sentence for abusing young

1:03:471:03:53

boys in his care eight days ago.

1:03:531:03:55

Some of the victims were linked

to Crewe Alexandra, where Bennell

1:03:551:03:57

was employed for seven years

until he left in 1992.

1:03:571:04:00

The club has denied it knew

anything about his behaviour

1:04:001:04:03

or the abuse and said he left

for footballing reasons.

1:04:031:04:07

The social media giant Facebook has

funded a pilot programme

1:04:071:04:10

to try to deradicalise extremists.

1:04:101:04:11

The project was led by

a counter-extremism organisation

1:04:111:04:13

who used the Messenger service

to challenge the views of users

1:04:131:04:16

posting extreme far-right

and Islamist content.

1:04:161:04:19

But privacy campaigners have

questioned the programme's

1:04:191:04:23

use of fake profiles

and whether Facebook

1:04:231:04:25

should be involved in

surveillance work at all.

1:04:251:04:27

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30.

1:04:271:04:35

Time for the sport.

Good morning. If you are an Arsenal

1:04:371:04:40

fan, you're not having the best week

probably, 3-0 defeat to Manchester

1:04:401:04:44

city in the League Cup final to

content with and now the same

1:04:441:04:48

opponents to face, Manchester City

in a Premier League on Thursday

1:04:481:04:50

night. Now club great Ian White has

urged manager Arsene Wenger to step

1:04:501:04:54

down at the end of the season,

saying he cannot make a case for him

1:04:541:04:58

staying in. -- Ian Wright. Ian

Wright also feels the owner Stan

1:04:581:05:02

Kroenke has lost interest and a new

two-year deal given to Arsene Wenger

1:05:021:05:06

last summer was a mistake.

I want

Arsenal to start to challenge again,

1:05:061:05:11

start signing players that make us

exciting again, someone who's going

1:05:111:05:15

to come in and around the Arsenal

group who is going to lay down the

1:05:151:05:18

law to people and a new manager,

whoever that is going to be, and the

1:05:181:05:23

players who were now on easy street,

literally. A few of the mark owning

1:05:231:05:27

easy Street and renting a property

is on it! It's going to take Arsenal

1:05:271:05:31

a few years to get back into that

because everybody is progressing

1:05:311:05:35

right now, they are moving forward,

all of them.

A drug testing

1:05:351:05:39

programme in the English but Borlee

is unacceptable according to an

1:05:391:05:43

expert. At least a quarter of

players were not tested last season

1:05:431:05:46

which Professor Ivan Waddington says

is not good enough. The FA says it

1:05:461:05:50

runs one of the most comprehensive

national anti-doping programmes in

1:05:501:05:54

world sport and testing has

increased with more than 5000 said

1:05:541:05:56

to be carried out in the Premier

League this season. Boxer Curtis

1:05:561:06:02

Woodhouse is considering his future

in the sport after the death of

1:06:021:06:05

Scott Westgarth. Woodhouse was due

to top the bill in Doncaster which

1:06:051:06:09

included the fight where Scott

Westgarth suffered his fatal injury.

1:06:091:06:13

Woodhouse says it makes him question

whether the profession or the sport

1:06:131:06:16

are justifiable. Scotland could be

without a key man as they look to

1:06:161:06:23

follow up their huge Six Nations win

over England. Ryan Wilson's

1:06:231:06:28

tournament could be over if he is

found guilty of making contact with

1:06:281:06:31

the eye of an opponent. The incident

happened in the historic Calcutta

1:06:311:06:36

Cup victory as he tangled with

Nathan Hughes at Murrayfield. Wilson

1:06:361:06:39

appears before the disciplinary

committee tomorrow. A two-time

1:06:391:06:43

Olympic gold medallist Usain Bolt

will fulfil a dream in June when he

1:06:431:06:46

plays football at Old Trafford. He

is a huge Manchester United fan and

1:06:461:06:50

has made no secret of the fact he

would love to be a professional

1:06:501:06:54

player. His first step will be as

captain of the world 11 in the

1:06:541:06:58

Soccer Aid match where he will take

on Robbie Williams' England side.

1:06:581:07:01

The teams will feature stars and

footballing legends and Usain Bolt

1:07:011:07:05

says he has a special celebration

plans for when he scores, not if,

1:07:051:07:10

he's all we've been confident! That

is all the sport for now. More later

1:07:101:07:14

in the hour. -- always been

confident.

1:07:141:07:17

We had such an incredible

response from you to our

1:07:171:07:19

programme live from a pupil

referral unit yesterday.

1:07:191:07:24

Hawkswood Primary Pupil

Referral Unit in North-East

1:07:241:07:27

London takes up to 40

children who've been excluded

1:07:271:07:30

from mainstream education

between the ages of 4 and 11.

1:07:301:07:33

The reason we were there

was because we've discovered a big

1:07:331:07:36

rise in the numbers of primary

school aged children in England

1:07:361:07:40

being educated at PRUs - it's up 34%

over the last four years.

1:07:401:07:44

Many of you got in touch to talk

about your own child's

1:07:441:07:48

experiences at a PRU -

and we'll hear from you in a moment.

1:07:481:07:53

All, week we're looking

at the work of PRUs.

1:07:531:07:55

While exclusion impacts

on the children first and foremost,

1:07:551:08:00

it affects parents too, of course.

1:08:001:08:03

Two of those parents we met,

Kerri Wooden and Shelley Porter,

1:08:031:08:05

talked to us at length

about the emotions they feel,

1:08:051:08:08

from guilt and shame, to pride.

1:08:081:08:15

I'm Shelley, I have four children.

1:08:151:08:19

My eldest is at university,

1:08:191:08:22

I've got six-year-old twins and then

I have Cruz.

1:08:221:08:25

I could see from an early

age that he was going

1:08:251:08:27

to struggle at school.

1:08:271:08:30

He was not making friends and any

friends that tried to get close,

1:08:301:08:33

Cruz would bully, push away.

1:08:331:08:37

He was just different.

1:08:371:08:42

My name is Kerri.

1:08:421:08:43

I've got two children.

1:08:431:08:46

My eldest one is 11,

his name is Jamie and I've got

1:08:461:08:49

Logan, who is seven.

1:08:491:08:50

The best bit about being seven is...

1:08:501:08:55

Seeing your dad and going swimming

with him like I did and...

1:08:551:09:00

Getting your own way, almost.

1:09:001:09:04

Logan's journey has been...

1:09:041:09:06

Horrendous, horrific.

1:09:061:09:09

He's had a terrible time.

1:09:091:09:12

Really, really bad time,

told constantly that he's weird

1:09:121:09:14

and that he's different.

1:09:141:09:17

What kind of worries?

1:09:241:09:26

Just lots of worries.

1:09:261:09:30

People being accepting of him,

how will he cope as he gets older?

1:09:301:09:34

Would he have friends?

Would he get a job?

1:09:341:09:37

Would he be able to conform

in society, in the big, wide world?

1:09:371:09:41

Just the normal things that any

parent wants for their kid.

1:09:411:09:44

Is he going to be able to do that?

1:09:441:09:47

If anything happens to me,

what will happen with Logan?

1:09:501:09:55

How would anyone else be able

to cope with him and deal with him

1:09:551:09:58

and be able to see the smaller signs

and put him as their priority?

1:09:581:10:03

Because even though I am lucky

enough to have a couple of people

1:10:031:10:07

in my life that do see them smaller

signs, that's not

1:10:071:10:09

the love of a mother.

1:10:091:10:17

He has broken my heart many

times with, "Why can't

1:10:171:10:20

I have friends over?

1:10:201:10:22

Why wasn't I invited to the party?"

1:10:221:10:27

He said to me, "I know

that I'm weird, Mummy,

1:10:271:10:30

but I can't help it.

1:10:301:10:31

It's just who I am".

1:10:311:10:34

And that's when that,

kind of like...

1:10:341:10:36

Oh, it hurt, you know?

1:10:361:10:39

Because he was only five at the time

and I just kind of said

1:10:391:10:43

to him, "Everybody's weird.

1:10:431:10:44

Everybody's weird in

their own little way.

1:10:441:10:46

You're just you".

1:10:461:10:49

Cruz has made life really difficult,

not just for me but for himself

1:10:491:10:54

and for the whole family.

1:10:541:10:57

You try to do everything you can

to appease him but you often find

1:10:571:11:00

that nothing is enough.

1:11:001:11:03

He almost boycotts any kind of fun

by ending any fun day out with some

1:11:031:11:08

kind of outburst or fight

with his brothers and sisters.

1:11:081:11:12

Sometimes he can be nice

but sometimes he can be not nice.

1:11:121:11:20

Yeah.

1:11:211:11:26

Yeah, he can be like that, you know.

1:11:261:11:28

Yeah.

1:11:281:11:33

I remember once looking

back on these and seeing

1:11:331:11:41

the difference

in the way Logan had been before

1:11:411:11:43

he started school,

how much more outgoing

1:11:431:11:45

he was and how happy

he was and relaxed.

1:11:451:11:47

He's been given a diagnosis for

anxiety but no diagnosis of autism.

1:11:471:11:50

People from the outside,

they just see the naughty behaviour

1:11:501:11:54

so that is scary as well

because then, they are not seeing

1:11:541:11:59

the illness that comes along with it

when he has been ill,

1:11:591:12:02

like literally, physically making

himself sick, wetting the bed,

1:12:021:12:05

needing to go to the toilet before

he leaves the house, alopecia,

1:12:051:12:09

blood spots all over his face,

he will get broken capillaries.

1:12:091:12:13

There are so many different things

and so many different sides to it

1:12:131:12:16

all but people don't understand that

and they don't see that.

1:12:161:12:24

Yeah, I did feel ashamed

because there were incidents

1:12:241:12:27

where Cruz was hitting other

children at school or maybe

1:12:271:12:31

breaking their pencil,

ripping up some work and I felt that

1:12:311:12:34

parents would be looking at me

when I was taking him to school,

1:12:341:12:39

you know, that is Cruz's

mum, Cruz did it.

1:12:391:12:41

You are always being judged.

1:12:411:12:44

For his behaviour, for him hiding

under a table instead of playing

1:12:461:12:48

with the other kids,

for him not wanting to hear noise

1:12:481:12:53

because he might shout at another

child if they are too much for him,

1:12:531:12:56

you know, because he does not

want to play with certain children

1:12:561:12:59

because they might have a bit

of dirt on their shirt.

1:12:591:13:03

You know, people, family members

would be thinking that I'm

1:13:031:13:05

behaving like a weak

parent, you know.

1:13:051:13:07

He needs to be disciplined,

he needs to be told.

1:13:071:13:11

It gives the stigma of being some

kind of chavvy parent,

1:13:111:13:14

that's incapable of being able

to discipline their job properly.

1:13:141:13:18

But you could not discipline Cruz

the same way as you would

1:13:181:13:21

discipline another child.

1:13:211:13:24

It did not work.

1:13:241:13:26

Because of the stigma that is around

everything, we end up trying

1:13:261:13:29

to push our children to be

as mainstream as possible.

1:13:291:13:36

Obviously, I love Cruz.

1:13:401:13:41

He's my boy.

1:13:411:13:43

My son.

1:13:431:13:45

But you want everyone else to love

him and embrace him and when he's...

1:13:451:13:49

His behaviour is not very likeable,

it is hard to accept that your child

1:13:491:13:55

is not actually that lovable.

1:13:551:13:59

So I used to say, like,

I love him but how the hell

1:13:591:14:02

is anyone else going to love him

or even like him?

1:14:021:14:10

Kilt, which part?

I did have a lot

of I suppose guilt that I was

1:14:151:14:23

letting him down, just because I did

not know what to do but I never felt

1:14:231:14:26

that I wasn't giving him everything

I could.

For me, my guilt is not

1:14:261:14:32

trusting my own judgment and

listening to other people. What do

1:14:321:14:35

you want to drink? Because I'd be

like, "There's something wrong,

1:14:351:14:41

there's something wrong". Everyone

would be like, "No, he's just being

1:14:411:14:45

spoiled, he should do this or that".

Cruz comes from a very loving,

1:14:451:14:51

stable family, although I am not

with his dad any more, you know, I

1:14:511:14:54

don't want people to think that it

could be the reason why, you know,

1:14:541:14:58

he behaves like this.

1:14:581:15:05

Imai hairdresser so whilst I was

working, I would be getting phone

1:15:051:15:10

calls to pick Logan up.

He needs to

go home, we can't deal with him

1:15:101:15:15

here, he has smashed up the class

and he's hiding under the desk.

He's

1:15:151:15:20

got to be excluded, so I were dead

of having to have time off work. I

1:15:201:15:23

had to leave and if I've got a

client, they've got bleach on their

1:15:231:15:28

hair or, you know, product, that can

cause a lot of complications.

I gave

1:15:281:15:33

up my job about eight months ago. I

could not hold down a full-time job

1:15:331:15:37

and leave every other day to come

and collect him from school.

I lost

1:15:371:15:43

my job in February 2017 so I've not

been back to work since then. It's

1:15:431:15:49

Catch-22, isn't it? If you're

working, you're not spending enough

1:15:491:15:51

time with your children and if you

are not working, you are on benefits

1:15:511:15:55

and URS grandeur. -- you are a

scrounger.

1:15:551:16:00

I felt very isolated as a parent. I

didn't know what to say.

It leaves

1:16:061:16:15

you feeling extremely isolated and

alone because you have constantly

1:16:151:16:17

got people questioning you. And you

have constantly got people

1:16:171:16:22

questioning and you are fighting and

defending all the time.

1:16:221:16:30

No one gets to know your child, so

why would they get to know me?

I am

1:16:311:16:36

alone in this. I have not got a

partner to lean on, I literally my

1:16:361:16:42

own.

1:16:421:16:51

own.

I went down to see the PRU and

as soon as I walked through the door

1:16:511:17:00

I thought, he has to come here. I

literally broke down. They said, we

1:17:001:17:06

will help you.

1:17:061:17:16

Quite a lot. I think the reason I am

getting emotional is because of the

1:17:211:17:33

way they wanted to help me.

Mainstream school had basically

1:17:331:17:38

given up hope. My family were giving

up hope and this gave me that hope

1:17:381:17:46

back and it was like a rush of

emotion like, thank you. Thank you.

1:17:461:17:52

It was good, really good.

I was so

reluctant to send him there in the

1:17:521:17:58

first place because they do

restraining technique.

The teacher

1:17:581:18:02

says tough love.

He has done so

well, it is a complete turnaround.

1:18:021:18:09

He never liked learning. He was too

scared to learn because he was

1:18:091:18:13

scared of getting things wrong. Now

you get, it is OK, mummy, nothing is

1:18:131:18:20

impossible, just give it another

try.

The word impossible does not

1:18:201:18:24

exist.

And then I met Miss Milligan

who literally changed my world. And

1:18:241:18:34

his world.

And he loves reading and

spelling out words to you, he is

1:18:341:18:42

doing so well. It is like a complete

turnaround. It gives me a lot of

1:18:421:18:47

hope.

I have hope, I feel happier,

he is happier.

I am going to be an

1:18:471:18:54

inventor. I am going to make stairs

so if you fall down them it will not

1:18:541:18:59

hurt. I am putting cotton wool in

stairs.

We just 100% feel so much

1:18:591:19:09

more positive.

1:19:091:19:18

more positive. His time at the one

was up just before Christmas, so

1:19:181:19:22

they had little graduations, which

was lovely. They showcased what he

1:19:221:19:28

had done and how far he had come

since he had been at the PRU.

We are

1:19:281:19:33

so proud of you.

It is amazing to

see a child come through hardships

1:19:331:19:39

that a lot of adults struggle with.

I am so proud of him. It makes my

1:19:391:19:49

chest feel like he is going to

burst, he has done so well.

It was

1:19:491:19:54

nice to see him relax and put on his

graduation hat and just be proud of

1:19:541:19:59

himself. That makes me proud.

1:19:591:20:06

That makes me proud.

1:20:061:20:09

So many of you get in touch with us

yesterday and wanted

1:20:091:20:12

to share your own story with us.

1:20:121:20:15

With us is a former PRU

student Abigail Schultz.

1:20:151:20:17

Also with us is Emma Hopkins,

a mother whose son was at a PRU

1:20:171:20:21

between 2012 and 2014.

1:20:211:20:28

Gemma spent two years in a PRU and

now acts as a mentor.

1:20:281:20:32

Gemma spent two years in a PRU

and now acts as a mentor.

1:20:321:20:35

We also have Helenn El Baze -

her eight-year-old son is currently

1:20:351:20:38

a student at Hakswood PRU and is due

to go back into mainstream

1:20:381:20:41

education during the spring.

1:20:411:20:43

Welcome, thank you for coming on the

programme. Emma in Blackpool, I am

1:20:431:20:48

going to start with you if I may.

Your daughter has spent time in a

1:20:481:20:53

PRU. Tell us why.

She was bullied at

school and got school anxiety. She

1:20:531:21:01

was 12 and refused to go to school

in January 2000 and 15. Initially

1:21:011:21:06

the school sent work to home for her

to do and in April 2015 she started

1:21:061:21:14

one-to-one, and our day at the PRU

doing English, maths and science.

1:21:141:21:23

From September 2015 she started

attending the group sessions two

1:21:231:21:27

hours a day and by December she was

full-time at the PRU. In February

1:21:271:21:36

2016 she had to choose options for

GCSEs and she decided she wanted to

1:21:361:21:40

go back to high school. She wanted

to go to university and at the PRU

1:21:401:21:45

you could only do five GCSEs. But it

helped improve her confidence, it

1:21:451:21:50

helped her a lot.

That is

interesting what Emma is saying. It

1:21:501:21:56

is not always because of behavioural

problems that you end up going to a

1:21:561:22:00

pupil referral unit. Abby, you went

to one for health reasons. You were

1:22:001:22:06

anxious and self harming and it was

too much for you to go to your

1:22:061:22:10

secondary school.

I could not cope

with it like Emma's.. I had a school

1:22:101:22:19

phobia and my diagnosis was social

anxiety and depression. I was

1:22:191:22:23

getting help for that outside of

school with therapists and mental

1:22:231:22:30

health services. I was lucky it got

picked up by teachers at school. Not

1:22:301:22:35

all teachers are understanding, but

my parents recognised the signs that

1:22:351:22:41

I was not coping at school.

What

difference did it make you being in

1:22:411:22:46

a pupil referral unit.

The classes

were smaller, so I did not feel so

1:22:461:22:51

anxious going to class.

How many

were there?

Attendance was up and

1:22:511:22:58

down, but there were about nine in

my class. I was able to do my GCSEs

1:22:581:23:04

there which I probably would not

have been able to do if I was in

1:23:041:23:09

mainstream, or I would not have done

as well as I did.

What did you get?

1:23:091:23:17

Six Eights and Bes.

Ie Adamant that

would not have happened if you had

1:23:171:23:24

stayed at secondary school?

I would

not have done so well because the

1:23:241:23:27

school helped me personally as an

individual. In mainstream school

1:23:271:23:33

they have got a lot of children in

the class and it is difficult to

1:23:331:23:38

give help to everyone individually

so the quieter ones get missed out.

1:23:381:23:43

Their problems are not always

recognise. They are not always

1:23:431:23:49

tutored us individually perhaps some

of the louder ones if that makes

1:23:491:23:54

sense. The louder ones might excel

more and I was quite quiet and I

1:23:541:24:02

found going to the pupil referral

unit with smaller classes allowed me

1:24:021:24:06

to find my voice more. I was

encouraged through the tutors there.

1:24:061:24:15

I can see Helen standing over there,

she has just arrived. Thank you for

1:24:151:24:20

getting here. Nice to meet you. Take

a seat. Tell us about your child,

1:24:201:24:29

Clem, and he started at Hawks would

where we were yesterday just last

1:24:291:24:33

month. He is eight, why is he there?

He is a very smart boy, and I am not

1:24:331:24:40

saying that because he is my child.

I would say he is very clever and

1:24:401:24:46

capable. He was not settling in in

his classroom and it was just in the

1:24:461:24:53

classroom and at school.

There is a

picture of him there.

At home and

1:24:531:25:01

everywhere else outside of school he

is your average child. He responds

1:25:011:25:06

to things normally, but at school he

would get frustrated by anything.

1:25:061:25:15

Like what?

Somebody would pick up a

pen that he particularly wanted and

1:25:151:25:22

that would be a trigger. He would be

in the school hall and he would

1:25:221:25:27

smell something he didn't like and

that would be a trigger.

Like what?

1:25:271:25:33

He would have a panic attack, an

anxiety attack. I have seen it once

1:25:331:25:37

and it was horrible. It was horrible

to see my child in that way, so

1:25:371:25:46

distressed. I could not calm him

down. He was just screaming and he

1:25:461:25:52

was not even looking at me. I could

not get eye contact. I had to let

1:25:521:25:58

him calm himself down and took a

long time and this was happening at

1:25:581:26:01

school on a daily basis.

Was he

being suspended regularly?

Yes,

1:26:011:26:08

weakly. From this September just

gone last year was when it really

1:26:081:26:15

started getting bad and it felt like

weakly. My phone would ring up work

1:26:151:26:20

and all my colleagues would say, is

it school again? We all had anxiety,

1:26:201:26:25

not just me, it was everyone. It was

horrible to know that he was at

1:26:251:26:30

school so distressed. Then I felt

bad for the teachers, then I felt

1:26:301:26:34

guilty at work that I was leaving

all the time, it is such a vicious

1:26:341:26:39

circle.

You think he might have OCD

but it has not been diagnosed.

He

1:26:391:26:44

has not been diagnosed with

anything, but some days I can see

1:26:441:26:48

the traits of OCD. Some days I

concede traits of other things. ADHD

1:26:481:26:53

may be sometimes, I don't know. But

he is capable.

I didn't mean to

1:26:531:27:05

interrupt, but how would you say he

is after a month or so after a pupil

1:27:051:27:09

referral unit?

It is amazing work

that they have done with him. Like I

1:27:091:27:16

heard you saying, they treat him as

an individual. That is the main

1:27:161:27:21

thing. I agree, I understand you

cannot do that as well in a class of

1:27:211:27:26

30 children, but I am a single

parent and it is just me and him at

1:27:261:27:32

home and we have had adult

conversation and he is very involved

1:27:321:27:36

in the House and everything. He is

very able to articulate himself, so

1:27:361:27:43

maybe in a class of 30 he doesn't

feel like he gets the attention. He

1:27:431:27:49

is not spoiled and I am straight,

but he does not maybe get the

1:27:491:27:54

attention that he wants.

Let me

bring in another Emma who has got in

1:27:541:28:02

touch. Hello. Your son was in a PRU

between 2012 in 2014. How did he get

1:28:021:28:10

on?

The first time he was there

really well. He went there for a

1:28:101:28:15

couple of days a week. He had a

placement with his mainstream

1:28:151:28:20

school. The days he was at

1:28:201:28:26

school. The days he was at the PRU

was fine, but mainstream was

1:28:281:28:32

unbearable. They had brought the PRU

in because the wanted respite and

1:28:321:28:35

that was how debuted. To be honest

it was respite for me as well

1:28:351:28:40

because I did not have the school on

the phone every five minutes.

Do you

1:28:401:28:45

think generally people have the

wrong idea about what referral units

1:28:451:28:50

are alike in reality?

I think they

do. I went to one myself in my

1:28:501:28:58

secondary education and it was

misunderstood then and it is still

1:28:581:29:01

misunderstood now. There are a lot

of assumptions made about parenting.

1:29:011:29:05

Like what? There is an assumption

there is no discipline. I was very

1:29:051:29:11

young mother and it was felt a

parental issue.

You were a bad

1:29:111:29:20

parent M yes, and not just in

education, that was the assumption

1:29:201:29:23

across the board. Meaning relatives

and friends?

Lesson from them, but

1:29:231:29:31

from the medical profession, the

mental health teams involved. There

1:29:311:29:35

was an assumption made because he

was academically able there is an

1:29:351:29:41

assumed capacity that kids who are

academically able are able to choose

1:29:411:29:44

their behaviour. PRUs are pretty red

as units were children cannot behave

1:29:441:29:52

themselves and in reality it is far

from that.

Hello, Gemma. You spent

1:29:521:29:59

two years in a PRU and now act as a

mentor to students. They are

1:29:591:30:03

related. Tell us why.

The reason I

started mentoring young people was

1:30:031:30:11

because my experience in the PRU is

it to one person to believe in me to

1:30:111:30:16

change my outlook on life. Before I

went I felt very let down, I felt

1:30:161:30:24

nobody understood me, I suffered

from anxiety and depression and my

1:30:241:30:28

school was not very well equipped to

deal with that. When I went to the

1:30:281:30:33

PRU I was treated as an individual

is mentioned by previous ladies. I

1:30:331:30:38

was treated fairly, I was

understood, people took time to find

1:30:381:30:43

out how to calm me down. I work with

five different young people at the

1:30:431:30:48

moment and they are all very

individual. It takes different ways

1:30:481:30:52

to calm each of them down. It means

you have to get to know people. In

1:30:521:30:57

the PRU it gave me time to

understand where I wanted to go in

1:30:571:31:03

life and I ended up going to

university to study youth and

1:31:031:31:05

community work which allowed me to

go into mentoring now.

What do you

1:31:051:31:10

say to those people who say it costs

much more to educate people in a

1:31:101:31:16

pupil referral unit, the classes are

small, there is one on one time

1:31:161:31:20

spent between a teacher and a child,

it costs a lot more, what do you say

1:31:201:31:25

to those people who say why should

the children who play up or have a

1:31:251:31:30

tantrum or who caused a scene or who

tipped their desks over get more

1:31:301:31:35

money spent on them through

education and a good kids?

1:31:351:31:41

It's sad because when I started

working in the PRU, I realised what

1:31:411:31:45

I was to my school and it was all

about money. My school had to invest

1:31:451:31:49

the money in me and when I went back

recently with my daughter, for her

1:31:491:31:54

school place, I told them I had gone

to university, I graduated really

1:31:541:32:01

well, I have done very well for me

and my children, I've got a very

1:32:011:32:05

good job, they were very proud of me

so I assumed they believed it was

1:32:051:32:09

money well spent. I know for a lot

of young people, they feel let down

1:32:091:32:14

by the system and I don't think they

should be seen as money and money

1:32:141:32:18

should stop them from getting into

things. The budget cuts at the

1:32:181:32:23

moment to young people and youth

services after-school Ahronoth. You

1:32:231:32:27

need to keep them in education. --

after-school R and R. Two pupils I

1:32:271:32:33

am working with have not got a

school place for five months. It's

1:32:331:32:36

not OK. We need to get these

children into school and money

1:32:361:32:39

should not stop that at all.

Talking

of money, and incredible fact I

1:32:391:32:44

mentioned a couple of times

yesterday and I will mention again,

1:32:441:32:47

one charity has worked outcome of

the 6500 pupils who were permanently

1:32:471:32:51

excluded from schools in England

last year, they have worked out they

1:32:511:32:56

will end up potentially costing the

country £2.1 billion in extra

1:32:561:33:04

education, health costs, welfare,

mental health costs, criminal

1:33:041:33:07

justice system. You know, the link

is extraordinary, really. Let me

1:33:071:33:13

read some messages from people

around the country. This is from

1:33:131:33:22

Judy, "I want to commend your team

for the wonderful insight into what

1:33:221:33:25

these schools can offer to children

that for some reason do not fit into

1:33:251:33:30

mainstream schools. My son attended

a PRU in year ten which was several

1:33:301:33:33

years ago now and they guided my son

through a difficult time and he has

1:33:331:33:37

never dwelt on the time negatively.

Regular reports on his progress and

1:33:371:33:41

constant feedback was always

available and positive experience

1:33:411:33:45

now looking back". Laura said,

"Thank you for bringing this issue

1:33:451:33:49

tonight, -- delight, I'm in a

similar situation with my

1:33:491:33:52

six-year-old and I can identify the

challenges the other mothers are

1:33:521:33:57

discussing. They are brave to do

that so publicly and I thank them

1:33:571:34:00

for sharing their stories". Sue

says, "Watching a programme, my

1:34:001:34:04

heart goes out to the two mothers

who have boys with profound

1:34:041:34:08

behavioural problems, I can't

imagine the sense of relief at

1:34:081:34:10

finding support their sons". Julie

says, "The mothers on your programme

1:34:101:34:15

remind me of the despair I went

through when miles distant --

1:34:151:34:19

artistic son was excluded from

mainstream primary because to the

1:34:191:34:22

school he was a massive bundle of

problems but to the fantastic

1:34:221:34:28

special school we got into, he was a

bright kid with autism". "My Husband

1:34:281:34:32

worked in a PRU in Wembley and was

so upset when he left he cried. The

1:34:321:34:34

teenagers love Tim and shame it had

to merge with another local PRU and

1:34:341:34:38

see job cuts. -- loved him. " In

terms of the costs, the government

1:34:381:34:45

says alternative provision

academies, free skills and pupil

1:34:451:34:48

referral units receive a base

funding of £10,000 per place from

1:34:481:34:51

the high needs budget and then

receive top up payments from the

1:34:511:34:54

local authority. That is true. Do

you think it was right to shine a

1:34:541:35:00

light on what pupil referral units

do? As it made a difference to you?

1:35:001:35:05

I think it is good to shine a light

on it, for people to understand it

1:35:051:35:09

is not a place for bad children. It

really isn't. I mean, talking about

1:35:091:35:17

the money aspect of it, if you had a

health care need, for example, the

1:35:171:35:25

NHS would support you and somebody

might not say, "Oh, well, I was

1:35:251:35:34

until my whole life so why should

you be allowed to use my taxpayers

1:35:341:35:37

money when you are ill?" It is the

same kind of situation. Like Cruz's

1:35:371:35:45

mon said, she has other children who

are or have been in normal,

1:35:451:35:51

mainstream schools. It is not

something you want for your child.

1:35:511:35:53

It is not like I have picked for my

son to have these behaviour

1:35:531:35:57

problems. It is something that has

happened and I'm very grateful that

1:35:571:36:01

the service is there to help them

because I think they are helping

1:36:011:36:04

him. I mean, he's only been there a

month and a half and a week ago, he

1:36:041:36:11

said to me, "I'd really like to go

back to my mainstream school, I feel

1:36:111:36:14

like I am making much better choices

and I get on really well there".

1:36:141:36:18

Does the fact of hearing him say it.

It must make your heart burst. Grid

1:36:181:36:24

rack are literally come he just came

out with it, it was amazing. Thank

1:36:241:36:28

you for joining us. And good luck to

all of you.

1:36:281:36:37

all of you. Well done for getting

here on time as well!

1:36:371:36:41

Time for the latest news -

here's Reeta Chakrabarti.

1:36:411:36:44

Heavy snowfall is hitting parts

of the UK, causing road and rail

1:36:441:36:46

disruption and school closures.

1:36:461:36:48

The Met Office has issued amber

warnings for large parts

1:36:481:36:50

of the south east and north

east of England.

1:36:501:36:52

Up to 10cm of snow is expected today

and as much as 20cm is predicted

1:36:521:36:56

in some parts of eastern England,

Scotland and Northern Ireland

1:36:561:36:59

by the end of Wednesday.

1:36:591:37:07

Like "giving up a three-course meal

1:37:071:37:11

for the promise of

a packet of crisps".

1:37:111:37:13

That's the view

of the former most senior civil

1:37:131:37:15

servant at the Department

for International Trade on proposals

1:37:151:37:17

for Britain to leave

the EU customs union.

1:37:171:37:21

Sir Martin Donnelly,

who left his post last year,

1:37:211:37:23

said 60% of UK trade was either

with the EU or the countries the EU

1:37:231:37:27

has agreements with.

1:37:271:37:28

If you look at where we are now,

with fair and equal access

1:37:281:37:31

to the very large, rich EU market

which is nearly half

1:37:311:37:34

of our service and goods exports,

plus preferential access to other

1:37:341:37:38

markets, which gets us up

to about three fifths of trade,

1:37:381:37:41

if you are going to give that up

for the promise of some bilateral

1:37:411:37:45

deals with markets that are much

less important to us,

1:37:451:37:49

well, it's like giving

up a three-course meal

1:37:491:37:51

for a packet of crisps.

1:37:511:37:52

It is just not equivalent

and we have to recognise

1:37:521:37:55

that reality before

we take this decision.

1:37:551:38:03

There's increasing pressure on the

five-hour truce being observed in

1:38:041:38:07

the searing enclave -- Syrian

enclave is in good. There have been

1:38:071:38:14

reports of shelling and as

Elizabeth. Russia ordered the pores

1:38:141:38:21

which would allow humanitarian aid

in and people to leave. The United

1:38:211:38:24

Nations say people need to be

evacuated out of the area but there

1:38:241:38:27

is no sign it is happening soon.

1:38:271:38:30

At least three people have

died in a house fire

1:38:301:38:33

in County Fermanagh,

the Police Service of

1:38:331:38:34

Northern Ireland have said.

1:38:341:38:35

Emergency services remain at the

scene at the property in Derrylin.

1:38:351:38:38

Police are working to establish

the cause of the fire.

1:38:381:38:43

This programme has been told that

convicted paedophile Barry Bennell

1:38:431:38:47

was sacked as a youth football coach

at Crewe Alexandra short time after

1:38:471:38:50

parents confronted him and

threatened to call the police about

1:38:501:38:53

his behaviour. The 64-year-old was

given a 31 year sentence for abusing

1:38:531:38:57

young boys in his care, eight days

ago. Some of the victims welling to

1:38:571:39:01

Crewe Alexandra, where he was

employed for seven years until he

1:39:011:39:05

left in 1992. The club has denied

its new anything about his behaviour

1:39:051:39:08

or the abuse and said he left for

footballing reasons.

1:39:081:39:10

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:39:101:39:16

We are going to talk about a

Facebook project

1:39:161:39:24

Facebook project where individuals

use Facebook Messenger to engage

1:39:241:39:27

people with extremist views or

posting extremist content on the

1:39:271:39:31

app, to engage them in conversation

and challenge them on their views

1:39:311:39:34

and talk to them about the views.

This tweet from Bill, "Facebook

1:39:341:39:38

makes up its own rules without any

way to challenge them. My account

1:39:381:39:41

was disabled for no reason and they

never respond why". Denise says, "So

1:39:411:39:48

what is the answer? Should we will

be privately looking for extremists

1:39:481:39:51

and talking to them ourselves?

Therefore, no one would have to

1:39:511:39:55

worry about privacy. Something

obviously needs to be done but the

1:39:551:39:57

way Facebook went about this needs

changing". We will talk more about

1:39:571:40:01

that later so send in your views and

we will feed them into the

1:40:011:40:04

conversation. Time for the sport.

After their embarrassing defeat in

1:40:041:40:08

the League Cup final, Arsenal legend

Ian Wright has said there is no case

1:40:081:40:13

for manager Arthur and they get to

stay in charge of the club. Wenger,

1:40:131:40:17

nearly into is dragged the second

year in the job but Ian Wright says

1:40:171:40:21

he's mollycoddling the team that has

lost half of its matches in 2018. As

1:40:211:40:25

Scotland look to follow up their

huge Six Nations win over England,

1:40:251:40:29

they could be without key man Ryan

Wilson do the rest of the tournament

1:40:291:40:32

if he is punished for making contact

with the eye area of an England

1:40:321:40:36

player on Saturday. British boxer

Curtis Woodhouse says he may not

1:40:361:40:40

fight again following the death of

Scott Westgarth after about at the

1:40:401:40:44

weekend. Woodhouse says it has left

him questioning the morale of this

1:40:441:40:47

board. A time Olympic gold medallist

and big Manchester United van Usain

1:40:471:40:52

Bolt will fulfil a dream in June --

eight time Olympic gold medallist.

1:40:521:40:56

He will captain the world 11 at this

year's Soccer Aid match where he

1:40:561:41:00

will take on Robbie Williams'

England side. More sport after 11am.

1:41:001:41:10

We can exclusively reveal that

Facebook has been funding a project

1:41:101:41:13

which saw their Messenger system

used to try to deradicalise people.

1:41:131:41:16

Users posting extreme far-right

and Islamist content in the UK

1:41:161:41:19

were identified and contacted

in an attempt to

1:41:191:41:21

challenge their views.

1:41:211:41:22

It's been criticised by privacy

campaigners as Facebook

1:41:221:41:25

straying into surveillance.

1:41:251:41:27

Our reporter Catrin Nye

had an exclusive look

1:41:271:41:30

at the project for us.

1:41:301:41:32

We bought you her full film earlier,

and here's a short extract.

1:41:321:41:35

So first of all, I'd

private message them,

1:41:351:41:37

ask them a few questions

about what is on their profile page.

1:41:371:41:43

Would you have a look first

at what is on there?

1:41:431:41:46

Yeah, yeah.

1:41:461:41:50

Colin Bidwell is a

victim of terrorism.

1:41:501:41:52

He survived the 2015

Tunisia beach attack.

1:41:521:41:53

He has since been paid to go

on Facebook using a fake profile to

1:41:531:41:57

message extremists.

1:41:571:41:59

It's part of a project funded

by Facebook themselves.

1:41:591:42:00

Be nice to people, whatever your

beliefs or religion, for me.

1:42:001:42:03

It is simple.

1:42:031:42:06

Researchers found people posting

both extreme Islamist and far right

1:42:061:42:08

material on Facebook.

1:42:081:42:09

11 people including Colin

were tasked with trying to challenge

1:42:091:42:13

their extreme views with

conversations on Facebook Messenger.

1:42:131:42:18

Just keep saying, you

can have your extreme

1:42:181:42:20

beliefs and everything

but

1:42:201:42:21

when it gets to extreme violence,

that is the bit I can't understand.

1:42:211:42:25

Counter-extremism organisation

the Institute for Strategic Dialogue

1:42:251:42:26

was behind the research.

1:42:261:42:30

We were trying to fill a really big

gap in responses to online

1:42:301:42:33

recruitment and radicalisation.

1:42:331:42:34

The gap is in the direct

messaging space.

1:42:341:42:38

In all, 569 people were

contacted on Facebook.

1:42:381:42:42

112 people replied.

1:42:421:42:48

76 had a sustained conversation

and ISD claimed that

1:42:481:42:50

eight people showed

signs the conversation

1:42:501:42:51

had a positive impact.

1:42:511:42:54

People like Colin used fake profiles

to have these conversations,

1:42:541:42:56

something against

Facebook's own rules.

1:42:561:43:02

I would say that we don't allow fake

accounts on the platform

1:43:021:43:06

and we don't advise people to use

fake accounts at all in any

1:43:061:43:11

circumstances because

they will be disrupted.

1:43:111:43:12

But you did here?

1:43:121:43:14

Exactly what the

researchers did in this

1:43:141:43:15

circumstance was done

independently of Facebook.

1:43:151:43:19

The project has raised serious

concerns for privacy campaigners.

1:43:191:43:24

I think there are concerns

over who exactly is

1:43:241:43:26

carrying out this work.

1:43:261:43:28

Even if the organisation

itself may have been

1:43:281:43:30

involved in doing research over many

years, it does not mean they are

1:43:301:43:34

qualified to carry out

this kind of quasi-law

1:43:341:43:36

enforcement surveillance role.

1:43:361:43:39

I think it will make people

sceptical about the role of social

1:43:391:43:42

media organisations.

1:43:421:43:43

When are you not being monitored?

1:43:431:43:46

Only if they were

specifically asked did the

1:43:461:43:49

people having those conversations

admit they were doing it on behalf

1:43:491:43:52

of a research organisation.

1:43:521:43:53

Every time someone

found out, the person

1:43:531:43:55

either cut off the conversation

or reacted aggressively.

1:43:551:43:59

How do you know you weren't

making things worse?

1:43:591:44:03

You could create an environment

where people are even

1:44:031:44:05

more suspicious of

organisations like yours.

1:44:051:44:08

These are violent, hateful views.

1:44:081:44:11

You can either censor that.

1:44:111:44:13

You can ignore it

and it will fester.

1:44:131:44:20

Or you can try to engage it to see

if you can walk them back

1:44:201:44:24

from the edge.

1:44:241:44:26

Now let's talk with Sasha Havlicek,

who is the head of the Institute

1:44:261:44:29

of Strategic Dialogue who did

the research, and who we

1:44:291:44:31

saw in Catrin's film.

1:44:311:44:34

Also with us are Millie Graham Wood

from Privacy International,

1:44:341:44:36

who is concerned about the impact

of the pilot scheme on privacy

1:44:361:44:39

and surveillance grounds,

and Miqdaad Versi from

1:44:391:44:41

the Muslim Council of Britain.

1:44:411:44:45

Welcome to all of you. Why is

Facebook funding this?

I think they

1:44:451:44:50

are interested in finding innovative

solutions to a problem on their

1:44:501:44:53

platform. We actually did this work

prior to the pilot that they funded

1:44:531:44:59

on a smaller scale. We are in the

business of trying to find

1:44:591:45:03

innovative solutions, increasingly,

these challenges are going online,

1:45:031:45:07

and we need digital responses and we

went to them with a piece of action

1:45:071:45:12

research that was designed to fill a

gap and look at what might work to

1:45:121:45:16

address this problem. The

methodology was ours and I need to

1:45:161:45:21

say this over and over but the data

is public. We were not given any

1:45:211:45:26

preferential look under the bonnet

in terms of the data. We are looking

1:45:261:45:31

at essentially what people post

publicly. This is the modern-day

1:45:311:45:35

version of Speakers' Corner. This is

somebody coming out, not posting

1:45:351:45:40

questions and concerns about British

foreign or immigration policy. These

1:45:401:45:44

are people who are posting

dehumanising, violent messaging

1:45:441:45:48

against another group.

1:45:481:45:54

You are shaking your head when Sasha

was saying it is the equivalent of

1:45:541:45:58

Speaker's corner.

No, it is not.

Facebook has allowed a change to the

1:45:581:46:05

rules of the game. They funded an

organisation by setting up fake

1:46:051:46:12

profiles and can monitor people who

are not doing anything illegal as I

1:46:121:46:15

understand it and who are part of

the groups that Facebook allows to

1:46:151:46:19

exist. Yet you are being monitored

without your knowledge and you are

1:46:191:46:24

being assessed perhaps on your likes

and friendship groups in ways that

1:46:241:46:27

you have no cob Renton.

Can you

respond to that?

1:46:271:46:35

respond to that?

When anybody asks

our intervention provider, and I

1:46:351:46:40

should say we are a civil society

organisation and it is within a

1:46:401:46:44

network we have developed of former

extremists, survivors of extremism,

1:46:441:46:50

and they have a very personal story

to share with people. As such they

1:46:501:46:55

have great credibility. They are

personally sharing openly their own

1:46:551:47:00

experiences and they are being very

honest in doing that. Do we need to

1:47:001:47:04

protect them? Yes, we do and

pseudonyms are used by security. But

1:47:041:47:09

they are very open in the

engagements they have these

1:47:091:47:12

individuals and they share a lot of

their own personal journeys in those

1:47:121:47:15

engagements.

The trouble is, you say

the use of pseudonyms, but Facebook

1:47:151:47:23

are allowing people to breach the

terms of service. If these are the

1:47:231:47:27

rules of the game we need

transparency from Facebook that they

1:47:271:47:30

are permitting this. We saw in one

of the clips that one of the people

1:47:301:47:34

who worked for you had been a

victim. Obviously someone like that

1:47:341:47:40

has huge emotional engagement with

this kind of thing that does not

1:47:401:47:43

mean they are the right person to

conduct this form of surveillance.

1:47:431:47:47

If this is what Facebook is to

become, surveillance platform, this

1:47:471:47:52

has to be people who do not an

emotional engagement to a certain

1:47:521:47:57

degree because they need to be

objective, they need to know what

1:47:571:48:02

they are doing and they need to be

professionals if this is the route

1:48:021:48:05

we want to take.

Those intervention

providers did not conduct the

1:48:051:48:11

research. Our research is conducted

the research based on what people

1:48:111:48:15

were posting publicly. Then we match

people up within our network to be

1:48:151:48:19

able to weed out on a personal basis

with these individuals. We provided

1:48:191:48:25

all our intervention providers with

training and Pastoral support

1:48:251:48:28

because this is difficult work. This

is not anything new in the off-line

1:48:281:48:33

sense. This kind of direct

engagement work happens in the

1:48:331:48:37

off-line world and we know once

somebody is in a sustained

1:48:371:48:42

engagement with a trusted person,

and intervention provider, they are

1:48:421:48:46

very unlikely to cross the threshold

to violence and that is what we are

1:48:461:48:50

trying to do. We are trying to help

them to accept that pathway to hate

1:48:501:48:54

and violence.

In the off-line space

they get the opportunity to see the

1:48:541:49:01

person and know the person. Overall

the idea that Facebook is starting

1:49:011:49:04

to look at content more carefully is

a good thing.

The criticism is that

1:49:041:49:09

it is not really. This might be seen

as a way of silencing a little of

1:49:091:49:14

the criticism because it does not

take enough extremist content down.

1:49:141:49:19

That is right. There is a big

problem because when there is

1:49:191:49:23

somebody inciting violence, and if

that is a group of people who is

1:49:231:49:27

being targeted, it is people who are

inciting violence who are glorifying

1:49:271:49:35

terrorism, these are things that are

getting very close if not breaching

1:49:351:49:39

the law. If they are breaching the

law, there should be police

1:49:391:49:43

intervention. We need to go through

a legal process. I worry slightly in

1:49:431:49:47

that grey space if that are not

insufficient safeguards in place,

1:49:471:49:53

what stops things going wrong? That

is what we need to try and

1:49:531:49:56

understand better and ensure there

are appropriate safeguards in place

1:49:561:50:02

so we can have transparency and

accountability when things go wrong.

1:50:021:50:06

Absolutely and we apply the gold

standard in social work and policing

1:50:061:50:10

practice in terms of risk frameworks

and support we provide.

How can you

1:50:101:50:14

do that when you are not a

counterterrorism officer?

It is all

1:50:141:50:20

happening in the pre-criminal space

and it is important to understand

1:50:201:50:23

that. If you only address this

problem through hard solutions, law

1:50:231:50:28

enforcement or military solutions,

you will never get to the heart of

1:50:281:50:31

the growing challenge which is

underpinning it.

When you say

1:50:311:50:36

pre-criminal space you mean what?

What sort of things are people

1:50:361:50:39

saying that would allow your

intervention providers to engage

1:50:391:50:42

them in conversation?

It has not

crossed a legal threshold.

What are

1:50:421:50:48

you saying? What sort of comment

would trigger one of your

1:50:481:50:54

intervention providers getting in

touch with them?

Well, who can kill

1:50:541:51:00

the most refugees? Let's have a

national lotto. The sort of things.

1:51:001:51:05

People referring to rounding people

up in gas chambers.

Potentially that

1:51:051:51:10

is incitement to violence, that is

not pre-criminal space.

As we did

1:51:101:51:16

this programme of work, we did see

accounts coming down during the

1:51:161:51:21

course of the programme, which is

right.

How many?

I do not have the

1:51:211:51:27

number of the top of my head.

It

cannot be that many you would have

1:51:271:51:31

remembered.

There is an influence in

how much content is out there, for

1:51:311:51:40

instance in the Islamist space and

the extreme right space. We found a

1:51:401:51:43

lot more being suppressed in a

violent way in the right wing space

1:51:431:51:48

than in the Islamist space which

gives you a sense as to how much

1:51:481:51:51

pressure has been put on that issue.

We have seen a lot more happening

1:51:511:51:56

there, but it does not get rid of

the challenge which is how do we

1:51:561:52:00

engage with individuals who are

progressing down a pathway in a way

1:52:001:52:03

that can turn them away? That can

happen. There are cognitive openings

1:52:031:52:09

that give us an opportunity to turn

people away, often kids who are

1:52:091:52:14

angry and who are feeling alienated.

The future is in the digital space.

1:52:141:52:20

If we do not get into that space and

do things in an innovative way, we

1:52:201:52:25

will lose.

OK, thank you very much.

1:52:251:52:26

OK, thank you very much.

1:52:261:52:34

Like "giving up a three-course

meal for the promise

1:52:341:52:36

of a packet of crisps",

that's the view of a former senior

1:52:361:52:39

civil servant at the Department

for International Trade on proposals

1:52:391:52:42

for Britain to leave

the EU customs union.

1:52:421:52:43

Chris Mason is at Westminster.

1:52:431:52:46

Who is this person? Sir Martin

Donnelly, a former permanent

1:52:461:52:53

secretary, chief civil servant at

the Department for International

1:52:531:52:57

Trade. He worked alongside Liam Fox

who has a big Brexit speech coming

1:52:571:53:01

up at lunchtime. He will talk about

the real merit of leaving the

1:53:011:53:05

customs union and being able to go

out around the world and strike

1:53:051:53:10

international free-trade

arrangements and deals on a global

1:53:101:53:13

scale. But the guy who used to be

most senior civil servant has, yes,

1:53:131:53:19

is going to give a speech tonight,

but has a very arresting phrase, all

1:53:191:53:25

about giving up that three course

dinner of minestrone soup and maybe

1:53:251:53:31

rabbits and vegetables and new

potatoes and apple crumble and

1:53:311:53:33

custard and replacing it with this,

a packet of crisps. Here is so

1:53:331:53:38

Martin Donnelly.

1:53:381:53:40

Here is so Martin Donnelly.

1:53:401:53:45

If we look at where we are now

with fair and equal access

1:53:451:53:48

to the very large, rich EU market

which is nearly half

1:53:481:53:50

of our service and goods exports,

plus preferential access to other

1:53:501:53:53

markets which gets us up

to about three fifths of our trade,

1:53:531:53:56

if you are going to give that up

for the promise of some bilateral

1:53:561:53:59

deals with markets that are much

less important to us,

1:53:591:54:02

it is like giving up a three-course

meal for a packet of crisps.

1:54:021:54:07

It is just not equivalent and we

have to recognise that reality.

1:54:071:54:13

So Martin Donnelly.

1:54:131:54:18

Women in Syria have been sexually

exploited by men delivering

1:54:181:54:20

aid on behalf of the UN

and international charities,

1:54:201:54:23

the BBC has learned.

1:54:231:54:25

Aid workers said the men would trade

food and lifts for sexual favours.

1:54:251:54:28

Despite warnings about the abuse

three years ago, a new report shows

1:54:281:54:32

it is continuing in the south

of the country.

1:54:321:54:36

Danielle Spencer, a humanitarian

adviser working for a charity,

1:54:361:54:39

heard about the allegations

from a group of Syrian

1:54:391:54:42

women in a refugee camp

in Jordan three years ago

1:54:421:54:50

Similar accounts can be

found in a United Nations

1:55:211:55:23

Population Fund report.

1:55:231:55:27

The UN's Tamara Alrifai

joins us now from Cairo.

1:55:271:55:34

She is a spokesperson for the UN's

population fund.

1:55:341:55:36

She is a spokesperson

for the UN's population fund.

1:55:361:55:39

The Conservative MP

Pauline Latham sits on the House

1:55:391:55:41

of Commons International Development

Committee.

1:55:411:55:43

Are you going to name and shame the

organisations?

I cannot name and

1:55:431:55:49

shame organisations because the ones

we work with have not been

1:55:491:55:55

implicated in anything. There have

been no reports of organisations

1:55:551:55:59

working directly with the UN. It is

a very different area to access for

1:55:591:56:04

international organisations, so

other relief organisations rely on

1:56:041:56:09

local and Syrian workers to carry

out their work.

Are you taking the

1:56:091:56:17

allegations seriously or not?

We are

the writers of the report. We have

1:56:171:56:23

been issuing annual reports about

how aid and how women have been

1:56:231:56:30

accessing gender-based violence

services and whether or not anything

1:56:301:56:33

they want has been given to them in

exchange for sexual advances. If

1:56:331:56:38

this is not serious, what is?

We are

the authors. If you will not name

1:56:381:56:43

them because of the reasons you

explain, what are you doing about

1:56:431:56:46

it?

We are making the findings

public, the report has been online

1:56:461:56:53

for the last three years. It has

helped and it has allowed

1:56:531:56:58

humanitarian organisations to title

their mechanisms, including

1:56:581:57:01

reporting on such abuse.

I want to

bring in poorly if I may, what do

1:57:011:57:10

you make of these accounts?

It is

shocking. You cannot believe so many

1:57:101:57:14

men are prepared to do this sort of

thing with the most vulnerable

1:57:141:57:17

people in the world and these women,

and probably girls, are so

1:57:171:57:23

vulnerable and they are starving.

What else can they do?

Can your

1:57:231:57:27

committee do anything?

We will be

having a report which will commence

1:57:271:57:32

fairly soon. We are going to ask for

written evidence from anybody who

1:57:321:57:37

wants to put it in and then we will

be doing face-to-face interviews

1:57:371:57:42

with various people in the aid

sector. They will be asked to report

1:57:421:57:46

to us and we will be asking some

very serious questions.

Thank you

1:57:461:57:51

both, I wish we could give it more

time. Thank you for your patience, I

1:57:511:57:56

appreciate it.

1:57:561:58:04

appreciate it. On the programme

tomorrow, an exclusive interview

1:58:041:58:06

with the police officer in charge of

effectively catching Britain's

1:58:061:58:11

paedophiles. Join us tomorrow at

nine. Thank you very much for your

1:58:111:58:16

company. Have a lovely day.

1:58:161:58:20

A special report for the programme exclusively reveals that Facebook have funded a project using their own messenger app to try to deradicalise extremists.

After the incredible response to yesterday's live show from a pupil referral unit, Victoria hears more stories from parents and former pupils.

Plus, we take a look at the disruption the wintry weather has been causing across England and Wales.