16/03/2018 Victoria Derbyshire


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16/03/2018

News and current affairs programme. Chloe Tilley hears from Malorie Bantala who was eight months pregnant when her ex-boyfriend attacked her, killing her baby.


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LineFromTo

Hello it's Friday,

it's 9 o'clock, I'm Chloe Tilley,

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welcome to the programme.

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We speak to a woman who's

campaigning for a change in the law

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to make it easier to convict someone

who kills an unborn baby.

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Malorie Bantala was eight months

pregnant when her baby -

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Joel - was killed when his father

repeatedly kicked her

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and stamped on her stomach.

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The Labour leader,

Jeremy Corbyn, says again

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we shouldn't be too hasty to condemn

Russia over the nerve agent

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attack on a former spy

and his daughter in Salisbury.

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Members of his party aren't so sure.

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Jeremy's concern seems to be that we

could be rushing to some kind of

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armed conflict with Russia. I just

don't think anybody is talking about

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that at all. Nobody is talking about

invading Russia or launching air

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strikes on Moscow. What the Prime

Minister set out are specific and

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targeted measures, which are not of

a military nature, but we hope will

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send a clear message to Russia that

its behaviour is completely

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unacceptable.

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We'll get reaction at the end

of an explosive week.

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And there's controversy this

morning over this T-shirt.

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The clothes shop, Topman, is facing

pressure to stop selling it -

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because some Liverpool fans say it's

disrespectful to the 96 people who

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died in the Hillsborough disaster.

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Hello...

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welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11 this morning.

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We're also going to be

discussing "top five emails" -

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after an advertising executive

who was leaving his job sent

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round an email ranking his female

colleagues according to their looks.

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And he sent it on

International Women's Day.

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We'll be talking about

office culture and what

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still needs to change.

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Do get in touch with your stories

of sexist behaviour at work -

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and the other stories we're talking

about this morning -

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use the hashtag Victoria

Live and if you text,

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you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

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Our top story today...

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At least four people have been

killed after a newly built bridge

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collapsed onto a major

road in Miami.

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Eight cars waiting at traffic

lights below were crushed.

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Rescue teams are still

searching for suvivors.

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Lebo Diseko reports.

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This is all that's left

of the bridge that was

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built for safety's sake.

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Reduced to rubble.

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Emergency services say

they are still in search

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and rescue mode for now.

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It is thought that several people

have died but it is not

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clear yet how many.

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We will continue to search this

pile until we are sure

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that there are no other survivors.

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We were able to remove

nine victims early on.

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They have all been transported

to local area hospitals and once

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we have completed our search

and rescue operations we will remain

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on scene and help with

the recovery efforts as well.

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It was just before two

in the afternoon local time

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when the 950 ton bridge collapsed,

crashing down on the road

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below and trapping people

and cars beneath it.

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It was completed last Saturday

and was meant to get students from

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Florida International University

safely across a busy motorway.

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We were just hanging out

and then we didn't hear much

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but we starting hearing sirens.

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We looked outside and saw multiple

cars crushed under the bridge.

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I was in the dorm and my uncle

called me and told me

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a bridge collapsed.

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I didn't believe him

at first because I saw them

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put it up on Saturday.

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The section that collapsed

was called an "instant

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bridge" because of the fast

construction method used.

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Authorities will want to know

how this structure,

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which was meant to be iconic,

could have failed

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so catastrophically.

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Investigators are being sent

to the scene to try

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and establish what happened.

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Meanwhile, the company that

put the bridge up says

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that it is devastated at the loss

of life and is doing

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everything it can to help.

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Lebo Diseko, BBC News.

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Reeta Chakrabarti is

in the BBC Newsroom

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with a summary of the rest

of the day's news.

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The Russian foreign

minister, Sergei Lavrov,

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has confirmed that Moscow will expel

British diplomats.

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It follows Theresa May's

expulsion of 23 staff

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from the Russian embassy in London,

over the nerve agent

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attack in Salisbury.

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Jeremy Corbyn has again questioned

whether the Russian state

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was behind the poisoning.

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In an article in the Guardian,

the Labour leader said

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the government should not

rush to judgement.

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Keith Doyle reports.

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Russia might be diplomatically

isolated as world powers

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fall in behind Britain.

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But Vladimir Putin was showing no

signs of that at a rally before

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this Sunday's election.

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With 23 Russian diplomats considered

to be spies in exile from the UK,

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the next move is his.

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Moscow has continued its salvo

of defiant attacks, saying that

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Britain has a boorish attitude

and it cannot be trusted.

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And according to the Russian Foreign

Minister Sergey Lavrov,

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it's even trying to distract

attention from Brexit.

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Britain's own Defence Secretary

was equally blunt.

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If you are a nation and another

nation has launched a nerve agent

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attack on your people,

then we have every right to tell

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Russia to shut up and go away.

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Nato is agreeing with Britain's

assessment that Russia

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was responsible for the nerve agent

attack in Salisbury.

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The Prime Minister's very public

visit there has ensured that this

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attack and all of its ramifications

remain very much in the limelight.

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Here, behind covers and screens,

the investigation continues.

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While in London and Moscow

and other world capitals,

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a diplomatic war is under way.

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Keith Doyle, BBC News.

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Our Political

Correspondent Ben Wright

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is in Westminster.

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Just thinking about the reaction to

Jeremy Corbyn's comments, they seem

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to have exposed sharp divisions

within the party. They certainly

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have, divisions that have always

been there, I think, particularly on

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foreign policy between Jeremy

Corbyn, who throughout his career

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has opposed pretty much any military

action and confrontation. He has

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been a critic of Nato. I think he

finds himself in a tricky position

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leading the Labour Party on this,

who feel the government's position

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on the whole is right and needs to

be backed unequivocally. Jeremy

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Corbyn has a different view. He is

maintaining that while the Russian

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state could be responsible for this,

he's also saying it could be

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possible the nerve agent used in

Salisbury perhaps might have

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originated in Russia but could have

fallen into the hands of some Mafia

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like gangsters, and that is how it

ended up being used in Salisbury. In

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an article in the Guardian today he

says that while the attack is

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reckless and barbaric, politicians

need to keep their heads, look at

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the evidence and not rush to

judgment. He says the government's

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response to this in terms of

sanctions and diplomatic expulsions

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is correct, but also says it could

be more effective if they go after

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Russian

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oligarchs in London and all their

money. He's raising lots of

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questions about the government's

strategy and I think that

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questioning is making many Labour

MPs on the backbenches and front

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bench very uncomfortable. For

instance, Keir Starmer, the shadow

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Brexit spokesperson said there

should be no ifs and no buts when it

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comes to backing the government 's

strategy on this. But I think Jeremy

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Corbyn is still asking a lot of

questions, which he feels are

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completely legitimate, but they are

concerning his own party.

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Egypt is to send a delegation

of MPs to the UK,

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following the death of an Egyptian

student in Nottingham.

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18-year-old Mariam Moustafa

died on Wednesday,

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nearly a month after being attacked

in the city centre.

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The hashtag "Mariam's rights

will not be lost" has

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been trending in Egypt,

and the country's prosecutor-general

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has asked for information

from British authorities

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about the teenager's death.

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One in four council-run

secondary schools in England

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is running at a loss,

according to new research

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by the Education Policy Institute.

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The number of schools

in deficit has nearly trebled

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in the last four years.

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and is putting an extra

£1.3 billion into schools.

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Syrian activists say

nearly 20,000 civilians

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left the rebel enclave

of Eastern Ghouta yesterday,

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in the biggest displacement

of people since government forces

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intensified their

assault last month.

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The British-based Syrian Observatory

for Human Rights says

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the exodus stopped when rebels

launched a counter-attack.

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MPs say they've been unable

to identify a border solution

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operating anywhere in the world that

would enable an invisible border

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to continue between Northern Ireland

and the Irish Republic after Brexit.

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The Northern Ireland Affairs

Committee has called

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on the government to set out more

details on how it will manage

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the movement of people and goods

across the Irish border.

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It's also warned that,

without a transition period,

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there won't be enough time to put

new arrangements in place

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by withdrawal day.

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Four African countries

with the world's largest elephant

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populations are expected to call

on Britain and the European Union to

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ban the legal sale of antique ivory.

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Ministers from Botswana will sign

a petition at a wildlife

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summit in the country,

urging Europeans to follow

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China's lead in outlawing

the sale of ivory products.

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Alistair Leithead reports.

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Africa's elephants are still

severely under threat,

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with less animals being born

than the number killed

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every year by poachers.

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Here in Botswana, the last true

sanctuary for elephants

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on the continent, African ministers,

scientists and conservationists

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are again meeting to try

to stop the ivory trade.

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Techniques used for counterterrorism

are now being used to stop poaching

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and catch the culprits.

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And they're being showcased

at the Giants Club Summit,

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which aims to protect half

of Africa's elephants

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and their habitat by 2020.

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But there's another target.

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The legal trade of antique ivory

in Britain and the rest of Europe.

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The UK and the EU are the biggest

exporters of legal antique ivory.

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These are sales that are permitted

and are allowed around the world.

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Now, we have seen China has

banned their trade in ivory.

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Hong Kong is saying it's

doing a similar thing.

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The African leaders meeting

here with their governments

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are hoping the EU and the UK

could do likewise and could stop

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this trade in antique ivory.

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It won't stop the poachers

targeting these animals

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for their tusks across Africa,

but it will send a strong

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message to try and reduce

the demand for ivory.

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Alastair Leithead,

BBC News, in Botswana.

0:10:520:10:58

The singer Rihanna has

accused the social media

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app Snapchat of "intentionally"

shaming victims of domestic abuse.

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An advert for a game on the social

media platform asked

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users if they would "rather slap

Rihanna or punch Chris Brown".

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A spokesperson for the company said

the ad was "disgusting" and "should

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never have appeared".

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A man who calls himself

the French Spiderman has defied

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security to climb to the top of one

of Paris's highest buildings.

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Alain Robert was tackled by security

guards as tried to scale

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the Total building.

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But after being released

he returned to the challenge,

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clambering 187 metres to the top.

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Afterwards, he said he would

continue to climb for as long

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as he was physically able.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30.

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Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

0:11:460:11:50

use the hashtag Victoria Live

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and if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

0:11:530:11:57

Let's get some sport...

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The Winter Paralympics are drawing

to a close this weekend and as yet

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Great Britain have not met their

medals target. What other chances to

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improve situation?

The target was 6-12 medals and the

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realistic game was seven set by

Paralympics GB. They are on five as

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it stands.

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More disapointment for

Great Britain's snowboarders

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following on from the boarder cross

on Monday where the start

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gate broke just before competition.

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Today Ben Moore,

James Barnes-Miller and Owen Pick

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all missed out on medals

in their Winter Paralympic banked

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slalom events.

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All got 3 runs, best time out

the three which counts.

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Pick, GB's flag bearer,

missed a gate in his second

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run and then failed

to improve in his third which we're

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watching now, he was

well off the pace set

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by the eventual winner from Japan.

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It means Britain remain on five

medals, with two days of competition

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remaining in Pyeongchang.

0:13:070:13:08

Paralympics GB relying

on Scott Meenagh in the cross

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country tomorroew and the 3 pairs

in the Women's slalom to add

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to their total of 5 in South Korea.

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Our things starting to turn around

for Arsene Wenger?

Arsenal in the

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hat for the Europa League

quarterfinal draw after beating AC

0:13:240:13:27

Milan 3-1 last night. They went

behind at the Emirates but recovered

0:13:270:13:31

to score three times, winning the

tie 5-1 on aggregate. Danny Welbeck,

0:13:310:13:37

two goals last night on the day he

got back into the England squad for

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the friendlies against the

Netherlands and Italy. Some big

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teams left in the drawer including

Atletico Madrid, Marseille, Sporting

0:13:430:13:48

Lisbon, CSKA Moscow. Arsene Wenger

said he wanted to avoid Atletico

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said he wanted to avoid Atletico in

the last eight. After losing to

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Manchester City twice and Brighton

before the first leg, it was a run

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of four defeats for Arsene Wenger

but he says they have proved a few

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people wrong.

We had a nightmare

week and to recover from that we

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need to be mentally strong, to be

solid. And the team needed to show a

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together response. That's what we

did. Overall, I think many people

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didn't expect us to respond like we

did.

The Champions League draw takes

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place at 11 o'clock this morning,

Manchester City and Liverpool are

0:14:280:14:33

keeping an eye on who they will have

on the last eight of the Champions

0:14:330:14:36

League. The Europa League draw is an

hour later at midday. Arsenal are

0:14:360:14:40

well off the pace in the Premier

League so winning the Europa League

0:14:400:14:44

could well be their only way back

into the Champions League next

0:14:440:14:47

season. And still there are lots of

Arsenal fans who want Arsene Wenger

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out but he has eased some pressure

with this Europa League run.

He goes

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on and on!

Some breaking news that

is reaching us, we were talking in

0:14:570:15:02

the news about the Miami bridge

collapse and police have now

0:15:020:15:05

confirmed that six people have died

after the bridge collapsed in Miami.

0:15:050:15:09

We will bring you more developments

on that throughout the programme.

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Malorie Bantala was eight months

pregnant when the father

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of her unborn baby attacked her.

0:15:180:15:25

Kevin Wilson and his

17-year-old accomplice Tarsari

0:15:250:15:26

Grant repeatedly kicked and stamped

Malorie in the stomach.

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It led to the stillbirth of her son

Joel and left her in a critical

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condition, needing major surgery

on the hand she had used

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for protection from the blows.

0:15:340:15:37

Branding the attack cowardly,

vile and callous the judge sentenced

0:15:370:15:40

Wilson to a minimum of 16 years

for child destruction and GBH.

0:15:400:15:42

Grant was given a 10-year

custodial sentence,

0:15:420:15:44

plus four years on licence.

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Now three years on from the attack

and Malorie has launched a petition

0:15:490:15:52

and campaign calling for an urgent

review of the child destruction law,

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which she feels makes it difficult

to get the sentence perpetrators

0:15:550:15:58

of these specific crimes deserve.

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Speaking to us exclusively

in her first interview

0:16:050:16:06

since the attack Malorie

is here with us now.

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Thank you for coming in.

Thank you

for having me.

What memories do you

0:16:120:16:20

have of the day of the attack?

For

me it was just I remembered coming

0:16:200:16:32

home from a friend's house, I was

walking along the pathway towards my

0:16:320:16:36

house and the guy came out at me

from the bushes wearing a motorcycle

0:16:360:16:44

helmet. As he came out from the

bushes he stood beside me and let me

0:16:440:16:50

go. As I took a couple of steps

forward I see another guy with a

0:16:500:16:55

motorcycle helmet but then I

happened to recognise him. Just as

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that happened, I found myself on the

floor so the first guide put me on

0:17:000:17:05

the floor. Next thing I know, I'm

being stamped and kicked by the guy

0:17:050:17:14

that got me pregnant. The first guy

from behind, he stumped me on the

0:17:140:17:21

stomach. At the time I was thinking

what's going on, why is he doing

0:17:210:17:27

this? All sorts of stuff was going

through my mind.

Presumably terror

0:17:270:17:32

and thinking about what is happening

to your unborn child.

Exactly, but

0:17:320:17:39

at the time I was in the state of

confusion, I didn't know what was

0:17:390:17:43

going on.

And you knew it was him

because he recognised his eyes?

No,

0:17:430:17:51

his eyes were covered with a

motorcycle helmet but just his

0:17:510:17:54

figure and what he was wearing.

So

you were left lying on the pavement,

0:17:540:18:00

did anyone come to your aid?

My

neighbour heard the screaming from

0:18:000:18:06

her house, she opened her window and

screamed, what are you doing? At

0:18:060:18:15

that moment, another neighbour saw

two guys on top of me and as my

0:18:150:18:22

neighbour screamed out of the window

they ran off and I think that is

0:18:220:18:26

what initially scared them off, but

if it wasn't for that God only knows

0:18:260:18:30

how long they would have continued

attacking me.

So you were rushed to

0:18:300:18:36

hospital?

Not really, no. The

ambulance couldn't make it so the

0:18:360:18:43

offices took me to hospital, then I

had to wait another hour or so just

0:18:430:18:48

to be seen by a nurse for an

assessment.

And what's going on in

0:18:480:18:53

your mind during that time? I guess

you were starting to process what

0:18:530:18:58

happened.

Initially I sat down, I

thought maybe my waters have broken,

0:18:580:19:03

I went to my neighbours' house but

they couldn't see anything. I wasn't

0:19:030:19:10

in a lot of pain because of the

adrenaline but then after some time

0:19:100:19:13

I started to realise, my baby hasn't

moved, so my instinct started to

0:19:130:19:19

tell me something was wrong because

he hadn't been moving for quite a

0:19:190:19:23

while.

So you got to hospital and at

what point did you realise that Joel

0:19:230:19:29

had died?

It was once they confirmed

it to me. I had a feeling, I already

0:19:290:19:39

kind of knew what I needed them to

confirm it.

You had so much to

0:19:390:19:46

contend with because you had had a

Caesarean section...

Yes, I had a

0:19:460:19:53

Caesarean section the following

evening because I couldn't give

0:19:530:19:57

birth naturally, it just wasn't

happening. Then after that I

0:19:570:20:03

realised or I was told that my

fingers have broken so I also had to

0:20:030:20:09

have surgery the same week, I think

a few days afterwards, I had to have

0:20:090:20:15

surgery on my fingers.

And you lost

a lot of blood, you were in a bad

0:20:150:20:20

way. Then all of this happened and

of course the police were around as

0:20:200:20:25

well.

They were around from the

start offering support, then once

0:20:250:20:30

they thought I was in a better state

to start explaining what happened,

0:20:300:20:35

that's when they intervened more.

The main focus was my health and to

0:20:350:20:40

make sure I was OK.

And so how did

you begin to process? Because

0:20:400:20:46

presumably your family and friends

were trying to protect you but there

0:20:460:20:51

was intense media interest in the

story as well because journalists

0:20:510:20:54

see it as a story, it is your life

but they want to report what

0:20:540:20:59

happened.

Initially I didn't know

how much media attention it gained.

0:20:590:21:05

I was in hospital, I didn't have a

phone. My family and friends would

0:21:050:21:09

only tell me so much just try and

keep me protected, and they knew I

0:21:090:21:16

would get overwhelmed with a lot

information so they just tried to

0:21:160:21:24

keep that away from me and I didn't

realise how much media attention it

0:21:240:21:26

got until after I came out of

hospital.

Obviously the physical

0:21:260:21:29

injuries heal in time after the

operations but how have you been

0:21:290:21:33

able to process what happened to

you, that the father of your unborn

0:21:330:21:38

child was the person to take him

away from you?

It's taken a long

0:21:380:21:44

time, to be fair, maybe two and a

half years just to get to a place

0:21:440:21:48

where I have finally accepted what's

happened. I will never understand, I

0:21:480:21:53

will never know why he did it and I

have accepted that, but for me my

0:21:530:22:00

main focus was just to make sure

that I was in a good place. I wasn't

0:22:000:22:06

going to let this define me, I

wasn't going to let this completely

0:22:060:22:12

take over my life and stop me from

moving on.

Was one of the things

0:22:120:22:19

that helped you move on the fact

that you went to court and you

0:22:190:22:24

sought justice being served?

Yes,

that was one of the main things but

0:22:240:22:28

also talking to my family and

friends, trying to get their outlook

0:22:280:22:33

on it and their support as well,

that helped me get to the place

0:22:330:22:37

where I am today.

If we talk about

the trial, how hard was that for you

0:22:370:22:42

to listen to the evidence and

effectively relive that day that you

0:22:420:22:46

try to move on from?

It was a tough

time. It was emotionally draining. I

0:22:460:22:54

did put on a brave face. I went

basically every single day just to

0:22:540:22:59

make sure that I knew what was going

on, I was in the loop, but when the

0:22:590:23:06

evidence came together and the first

time I knew of anything was in court

0:23:060:23:11

I was genuinely shocked, I couldn't

believe it and I think that's when

0:23:110:23:14

it really dawned on me that he

actually did that. There is no

0:23:140:23:20

excuse for his behaviour, none at

all. I am so glad justice was

0:23:200:23:24

served.

Were you happy with the

sentence?

Not at first, I will be

0:23:240:23:32

honest.

A minimum of 16 years.

For

him to get a life sentence passed, I

0:23:320:23:40

was lucky. There are other cases

where you don't

0:23:400:23:49

where you don't even have a

conviction.

That is because this is

0:23:490:23:52

all part of your campaign now to

look at this review of the law

0:23:520:23:56

because I guess in your case it was

pretty simple for the police to

0:23:560:24:01

investigate. You were heavily

pregnant, this was the father of

0:24:010:24:04

your child, and he targeted

specifically your stomach so in many

0:24:040:24:09

ways it was easy to prosecute under

that law.

Exactly, because according

0:24:090:24:14

to the law it is more about if the

police can prove the intent, they

0:24:140:24:20

can prove there was an intention to

harm or destroy or kill a baby, that

0:24:200:24:26

is when it is a lot easier for them

to prosecute a perpetrator, but if

0:24:260:24:33

it was a matter of recklessness, it

is a lot harder to prove that

0:24:330:24:37

because they may not have had the

intention to harm the baby's life,

0:24:370:24:42

but as a result their recklessness

has essentially ended a baby's life.

0:24:420:24:49

For example if a woman was in the

early stages of pregnancy and maybe

0:24:490:24:54

you cannot tell she's pregnant, but

she is attacked and the child's

0:24:540:24:59

diet, you feel that should be the

same as what happened to you?

0:24:590:25:04

Essentially yes, they should receive

some justice and pregnancy should

0:25:040:25:13

always be considered as an

aggravating factor. As the law is so

0:25:130:25:17

complex, it does save the child

should be capable of being born

0:25:170:25:22

alive, so at which stage is a child

capable of being born alive? It is a

0:25:220:25:28

matter of weeks so you need to

review the intent and you need to

0:25:280:25:34

review when do you consider a child

being born alive.

But if you are

0:25:340:25:41

four months pregnant and it is very

unlikely a baby would survive being

0:25:410:25:45

born at that time, but it is still a

baby, isn't it?

Yes but in the eyes

0:25:450:25:51

of the law and due to other ethical

arguments and stuff, a conviction

0:25:510:25:57

wouldn't pass so we have to tread

carefully and make sure that the

0:25:570:26:05

review actually is able to protect

women all-round.

How do you feel

0:26:050:26:12

about child destruction law? The

term itself is just so cold.

Yes, it

0:26:120:26:19

is, but it was created in 19 29th so

things have vastly moved on, and

0:26:190:26:26

that's the thing. That's why it

needs to be reviewed because the

0:26:260:26:29

whole reason why it was created was

to actually tackle backstreet

0:26:290:26:36

abortions. Since then, abortion laws

have been passed, and the whole

0:26:360:26:42

purpose for them using the law now

is completely different to the

0:26:420:26:45

reason why it was introduced.

What

reaction have you had from

0:26:450:26:51

politicians when you have raised

this?

I have had support from Neil

0:26:510:26:56

Coyle and Harriet Harman, they have

been supportive in this. Since I've

0:26:560:27:01

released the petition on social

media, I have had a lot of support

0:27:010:27:05

as well. A lot of positive

responses. A few women have actually

0:27:050:27:10

come forward to me and told me some

of the similar experiences they have

0:27:100:27:16

had, which is a good thing because

at least I know I'm doing this for a

0:27:160:27:20

good reason and I'm not just the

only one that has experienced this.

0:27:200:27:25

There are many other women who have

gone through the same experience

0:27:250:27:34

Azmi or something similar.

Mallory,

thank you for coming to talk to us.

0:27:340:27:39

--

0:27:390:27:45

-- Malorie

0:27:450:27:47

-- Malorie.

0:27:470:27:50

Still to come...

0:27:500:27:51

We'll have the very latest

on the investigation

0:27:510:27:53

into the poisoning of a former spy

and his daughter in Salisbury

0:27:530:27:55

and the use of a military nerve

agent on British soil.

0:27:550:27:58

A significant rise in the number of

children being excluded from school.

0:27:580:28:01

As the government

launches a new review,

0:28:010:28:03

we'll be finding out what's

going wrong and why certain groups

0:28:030:28:05

of young people are far more likely

to be kicked out of mainstream

0:28:050:28:08

school than others.

0:28:080:28:09

Time for the latest news.

0:28:090:28:12

Here's Reeta with the BBC News

headlines this morning.

0:28:120:28:14

Officials in Florida say six

people have been killed

0:28:140:28:16

by a footbridge which collapsed

onto a busy road in Miami.

0:28:160:28:19

Eight vehicles were crushed

when the walkway gave way, less

0:28:190:28:21

than a week after being installed.

0:28:210:28:23

The bridge at Florida

International University

0:28:230:28:24

was put up in one day,

using a technique designed

0:28:240:28:26

to minimise traffic disruption.

0:28:260:28:28

Police say rescue teams

will work throughout the day

0:28:280:28:30

to search for survivors,

but the number of dead

0:28:300:28:32

is likely to rise.

0:28:320:28:38

They are saying at least,

because there is the possibility,

0:28:380:28:40

the sad possibility,

that under the concrete there may be

0:28:400:28:43

additional vehicles.

0:28:430:28:49

And they are trying to work at it,

the engineers are working at it

0:28:490:28:52

in a very tactical way.

0:28:520:28:54

Because again, as I mentioned

before, the structure is very

0:28:540:28:56

fragile and it could be very

dangerous to rescue personnel

0:28:560:28:58

that are still there,

people that are working.

0:28:580:29:00

Russia's foreign

minister, Sergei Lavrov,

0:29:000:29:02

has confirmed Moscow will expel

British diplomats.

0:29:020:29:04

The move follows Theresa May's

expulsion of 23 staff

0:29:040:29:07

from the Russian embassy in London,

over the nerve agent

0:29:070:29:09

attack in Salisbury.

0:29:090:29:11

Jeremy Corbyn has again questioned

Russia's involvement

0:29:110:29:13

in the poisoning of the former spy,

Sergei Skripal, and

0:29:130:29:17

his daughter, Yulia.

0:29:170:29:21

One in four council-run

secondary schools in England

0:29:210:29:23

is running at a loss,

according to new research

0:29:230:29:26

by the Education Policy Institute.

0:29:260:29:28

The number of schools

in deficit has nearly trebled

0:29:280:29:30

in the last four years.

0:29:300:29:32

The government says it doesn't

recognise the report's findings,

0:29:320:29:34

and is putting an extra 1.3 billion

pounds into schools.

0:29:340:29:39

Syrian activists say

nearly 20,000 civilians

0:29:390:29:41

left the rebel enclave

of Eastern Ghouta yesterday,

0:29:410:29:43

in the biggest displacement

of people since government forces

0:29:430:29:45

intensified their

assault last month.

0:29:450:29:50

The British-based Syrian Observatory

for Human Rights says

0:29:500:29:53

the exodus stopped when rebels

launched a counter-attack.

0:29:530:30:01

African countries want the European

Union to ban trade in antique Ivory

0:30:020:30:06

saying it would cut demand by making

ivory and unacceptable ornament.

0:30:060:30:11

Thousands are killed for their

elephant tusks each year.

0:30:110:30:15

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

0:30:150:30:21

Lots of you getting in touch after

we were talking to Mallory there.

0:30:210:30:26

One person says, what an amazingly

brave and articulate woman. I have

0:30:260:30:29

nothing but respect for her. I

remember this happening, I felt sick

0:30:290:30:34

for her then, and I still do now.

Another person getting in touch, my

0:30:340:30:38

heart goes out to the young lady for

what happened to her. I hope she

0:30:380:30:42

gets a review on the child

destruction law, best of luck to

0:30:420:30:45

her. Get in touch with us on all the

stories we are talking about.

0:30:450:30:49

Sport now with Will.

0:30:490:30:57

Today Ben Moore,

James Barnes-Miller and Owen Pick

0:31:000:31:02

all missed out on medals

in their Winter Paralympic banked

0:31:020:31:05

slalom events.

0:31:050:31:08

Great Britain have five medals so

far of the seven they targeted.

0:31:080:31:16

Arsenal in the hat

for the Europa League

0:31:160:31:18

quarterfinal draw after beating AC

Milan 3-1 last night.

0:31:180:31:20

They went behind at

the Emirates but recovered

0:31:200:31:22

to score three times,

winning the tie 5-1 on aggregate.

0:31:220:31:25

Leg-spinner Mason Crane will miss

out on the England tour of New

0:31:250:31:27

Zealand. He has been replaced by

Jack Leach. Trainer Nicky Henderson

0:31:270:31:30

is chasing an historic treble in the

Cheltenham Gold cup today. Victory

0:31:300:31:36

would make Henderson the first

trainer to win the Champion hurdle,

0:31:360:31:40

Champion Chase and gold cup at one

festival meeting.

0:31:400:31:47

It's been an explosive week

in the investigation into how

0:31:470:31:49

a former Russian spy

and his daughter came to be

0:31:490:31:52

poisoned in Salisbury.

0:31:520:31:53

Both are still in a critical

condition and the police officer

0:31:530:31:56

who went to help them

remains in hospital.

0:31:560:31:58

It's now been confirmed that

the Novichok nerve agent was used -

0:31:580:32:01

a chemical British authorities say

was only manufactured

0:32:010:32:03

in the former Soviet Union.

0:32:030:32:05

Theresa May has ordered 23 Russian

diplomats to leave the country

0:32:050:32:08

and Russia has since vowed

to retaliate in kind.

0:32:080:32:13

But the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

has again warned against being too

0:32:130:32:16

hasty in pointing the finger

at Russian President Vladimir Putin,

0:32:160:32:19

sparking criticism from his own MPs.

0:32:190:32:26

So before all of this happened,

how bad were Anglo-Russian

0:32:260:32:28

relations, and is this a move

towards another Cold War?

0:32:280:32:31

It's a spy story reminiscent

of the darkest days of the Cold War,

0:32:310:32:35

and it's caused an international

rift that's left UK/Russia relations

0:32:350:32:38

at their lowest ebb for decades.

0:32:380:32:40

So, how did we get here?

0:32:400:32:43

On the 4th of March,

two people were found slumped

0:32:430:32:46

on a bench outside a pizza

restaurant in the quiet,

0:32:460:32:48

picturesque town of Salisbury.

0:32:480:32:50

They were said to be

in an extremely serious condition.

0:32:500:32:53

They were quickly identified

as Sergei Skripal -

0:32:530:32:58

a former Russian spy who defected

to the British -

0:32:580:33:00

and his 33-year-old daughter Yulia.

0:33:000:33:02

In July 2010, Mr Skripal had been

one of four prisoners released

0:33:020:33:05

by Moscow in exchange for ten

Russian spies.

0:33:050:33:08

And by all accounts

he'd lived a quiet life

0:33:080:33:10

since arriving in the UK.

0:33:100:33:15

As the police investigation

progressed, traces of a nerve agent

0:33:150:33:17

were found near the scene

where the Skripals spent

0:33:170:33:21

the afternoon, and it became clear

that they'd been poisoned.

0:33:210:33:23

The Skripals remain critically ill

in hospital and a police officer

0:33:230:33:26

who was also hospitalised

after attending the incident,

0:33:260:33:30

Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey,

is said to be in a

0:33:300:33:33

serious condition.

0:33:330:33:34

In addition, 38 others

were seen by medics,

0:33:340:33:36

although they've now nearly

all been discharged.

0:33:360:33:39

Prime Minister Theresa May later

said the chemicals used

0:33:390:33:41

in the attack had been identified

as being part of a group

0:33:410:33:44

of nerve agents developed

by Russia, known as Novichok.

0:33:440:33:48

On Monday she spoke in the House

of Commons, asking pointedly

0:33:480:33:51

for an explanation from the Russian

government as to how this deadly

0:33:510:33:54

chemical could have found its way

onto British streets.

0:33:540:33:56

There are therefore only two

plausible explanations

0:33:560:33:58

for what happened in Salisbury

on the 4th of March.

0:33:580:34:02

Either this was a direct act

by the Russian state

0:34:020:34:05

against our country,

or the Russian government lost

0:34:050:34:09

control of its potentially

catastrophically damaging nerve

0:34:090:34:12

agent and allowed it to get

into the hands of others.

0:34:120:34:16

This afternoon, my right honourable

friend the Foreign Secretary has

0:34:160:34:19

summoned the Russian ambassador

to the Foreign & Commonwealth Office

0:34:190:34:24

and asked him to explain which of

these two possibilities it is.

0:34:240:34:27

When no explanation was forthcoming,

she came back to the House

0:34:270:34:32

on Wednesday and announced that

all high-level talks

0:34:320:34:34

between UK officials

and Russia would be suspended,

0:34:340:34:36

and that the UK would expel 23

Russian diplomats from Britain.

0:34:360:34:40

They have treated the use

of the military grade nerve agent

0:34:400:34:44

in Europe with sarcasm,

contempt and defiance.

0:34:440:34:49

So, Mr Speaker, there is no

alternative conclusion other

0:34:490:34:53

than that the Russian state

was culpable for the attempted

0:34:530:34:55

murder of Mr Skripal

and his daughter.

0:34:550:34:58

Meanwhile, the Kremlin has denied

any links to the murder

0:34:580:35:02

and condemned allegations

of its involvement as a provocation.

0:35:020:35:05

But many have drawn

comparisons with the death

0:35:050:35:08

of Alexander Litvinenko,

a former Russian spy murdered

0:35:080:35:11

with radioactive polonium in 2006,

and pointed to other unexplained

0:35:110:35:15

deaths of Russian nationals

hostile to the Kremlin.

0:35:150:35:21

Yesterday, Britain's allies France,

the United States and Germany issued

0:35:210:35:23

a joint statement condemning

the first offensive use

0:35:230:35:25

of a nerve agent in Europe

since the Second World War.

0:35:250:35:28

They called it an assault

on the UK's sovereignty.

0:35:280:35:31

With the UK/Russia relationship now

under a dark cloud of mutual

0:35:310:35:34

mistrust and tension,

the likes of which haven't

0:35:340:35:36

been seen for decades,

many commentators have asked

0:35:360:35:39

whether the alleged use

of a chemical weapon in Britain may

0:35:390:35:42

mean that the conclusion that Russia

and the West are now in the grip

0:35:420:35:46

of a second Cold War is unavoidable.

0:35:460:35:47

Certainly, there's good reason

to believe that things may well get

0:35:470:35:50

worse before they get better.

0:35:500:35:57

To talk us through

that are John Lough -

0:35:570:35:59

Former Nato representative in Moscow

and Russia expert at Chatham House.

0:35:590:36:04

And Edward Lucas -

Author of The New Cold War

0:36:040:36:06

and 'Deception, Spies,

Lies and How Russia

0:36:060:36:10

dupes the West.'

0:36:100:36:14

Thank you for both joining us. John,

how have we got to the stage where

0:36:140:36:20

Russia comes on to British soil and

attempts to murder someone? Our

0:36:200:36:25

relations that bad that they can

feel they can just come to Britain

0:36:250:36:28

and act this way?

I think the answer

is yes. Relations have been very bad

0:36:280:36:34

for a long time. In your preview

piece you referred to the murder of

0:36:340:36:40

Alexander Litvinenko in 2006. I

think the Russians thought at the

0:36:400:36:44

time they got away with this because

there was a rather lame reaction

0:36:440:36:48

from the government at the time. We

kicked out some diplomats, we

0:36:480:36:54

stopped talking to the Russian

security services, but a nuclear

0:36:540:36:57

weapon had been used on the streets

of London and all the traces were

0:36:570:37:00

there. They went back to Moscow and

we were able to eventually identify

0:37:000:37:05

who had carried out this murder. The

public enquiry, which was held

0:37:050:37:10

several years later, concluded that

the order was probably given by the

0:37:100:37:15

head of the Russian security service

and President Putin, at least with

0:37:150:37:19

their approval. So relations have

been in a very poor state. The UK

0:37:190:37:23

has tried to rebuild some dialogue,

pursued a policy of engagement and

0:37:230:37:28

deterrence. In other words, trying

to deter this really damaging and

0:37:280:37:34

dangerous behaviour by Russia. I

would say there has been rather too

0:37:340:37:37

much emphasis on engagement and

rather less on deterrence. But this

0:37:370:37:41

changes the game. The events of 2014

when Russia annexed Crimea and it

0:37:410:37:48

destabilised eastern Ukraine, which

almost brought about a very serious

0:37:480:37:52

border conflict in Europe, that has

sobered a number of mines in London.

0:37:520:37:57

The reaction we are seeing this time

is a little bit different to 2006.

0:37:570:38:05

They have effectively stepped up.

Edward, why do you think rationally

0:38:050:38:10

used a nerve agent, Novichok, which

is clearly from Russia, it almost

0:38:100:38:15

has a Russian stamp on it. Were they

being blatant, did they want to be

0:38:150:38:20

found out or do they not care?

The

conclusion is they were doing it in

0:38:200:38:25

a blatant way. If they just wanted

to kill Sergei Skripal for some

0:38:250:38:28

reason of their own, they could have

done it very discreetly, but they

0:38:280:38:32

did that in a very dangerous and

reckless way that endangered the

0:38:320:38:35

lives of so many other people in

Salisbury who have nothing to do

0:38:350:38:39

with the world of espionage and geo-

political intrigue. I think they are

0:38:390:38:43

testing us. I think they tried it in

2006 and they got away with it. They

0:38:430:38:48

see that Britain is weak, isolated,

isolated because of the

0:38:480:38:53

transatlantic relationship being in

trouble because of Donald J Trump,

0:38:530:38:57

and isolated because our

relationship with Europe is in

0:38:570:38:59

trouble because of Brexit and we are

desperate for international money.

0:38:590:39:02

They think they can give is another

knock and see if they cannot is over

0:39:020:39:06

and show we are not able to respond

to this of provocation.

They might

0:39:060:39:12

view us as weak, John, but will they

care much that the US, France,

0:39:120:39:17

Germany and the UK have released a

joint statement saying it was Russia

0:39:170:39:20

and it's not acceptable?

I don't

think they will care very much. This

0:39:200:39:26

is largely hot air, they will think,

and is there really the willingness

0:39:260:39:30

on the part of the leading Western

countries to Russia and invest in

0:39:300:39:38

defences and play this out over the

longer term? That's where the

0:39:380:39:42

Russian vulnerability is. I don't

believe it can sustain this sort of

0:39:420:39:47

posture indefinitely. It's costing

the country money, opportunities.

0:39:470:39:50

The economy is not doing

particularly well. What the Russians

0:39:500:39:54

are very skilful at is assembling

power, putting together instruments

0:39:540:39:58

of power that they can deploy

against our weaknesses. They are

0:39:580:40:02

able to identify our weakness is

very effectively. They can see the

0:40:020:40:07

shift in the transatlantic

relationship and the fishes in Nato.

0:40:070:40:10

They can see society is in

particular. It has reduced the

0:40:100:40:19

influence of the United States and

Europe, and is likely to do so, and

0:40:190:40:22

the UK is looking rather isolated.

Edward, are we heading to a new Cold

0:40:220:40:27

War?

I released a book in 2007

called the new Cold War, and people

0:40:270:40:33

criticised me for scaremongering at

the time but I was not gloomy

0:40:330:40:36

enough. I was mainly worried about

money and the military threat in

0:40:360:40:40

some corners of Europe. I didn't

think that we were going to face

0:40:400:40:44

this kind of really effective

propaganda blitz which we face all

0:40:440:40:50

over Europe now, which is

demoralising and dividing society.

0:40:500:40:53

It never crossed my mind Russia

would be able to be intervening in

0:40:530:40:57

the American political system in the

way that it has. We have been

0:40:570:41:01

complacent and arrogant, and Russia

has been getting stronger and

0:41:010:41:04

stronger. What annoys me is we were

warned about this in the 1990s by

0:41:040:41:09

our friends in Eastern Europe, and

we ignored them, patronised and

0:41:090:41:13

belittled them, saying we understood

Russia better than they did. It's

0:41:130:41:16

the other way round, they understood

what was happening and we didn't.

0:41:160:41:21

Let's talk about gas if we can.

Britain is reliant on Russian gas

0:41:210:41:26

supplies. Before Christmas there

were times when it was needed. Are

0:41:260:41:30

the Russians likely to use that as a

lever against us, saying they will

0:41:300:41:35

not provide it?

I think it's about

1% of our gas supply.

We still used

0:41:350:41:42

some before Christmas.

We used some.

The world is awash with liquid gas.

0:41:420:41:48

20 years ago gas all came through

pipelines but now we can buy it by

0:41:480:41:52

the tank load, just the way we buy

oil. You might have to buy it in

0:41:520:41:56

advance because the tankers don't

move fast, but we can supply all our

0:41:560:42:00

gas needs without being dependent on

Russian liquefied natural gas. It

0:42:000:42:04

might be the cheapest around, but we

can avoid it if we want to. Russia

0:42:040:42:10

has a political weapon in Eastern

Europe because of pipelines, but

0:42:100:42:13

even there, the EU in the last ten

years has built new pipelines and

0:42:130:42:17

storage capacity to the point what

we used to call the abominable

0:42:170:42:24

gasman of Russia, the gas pressure

on the east of Europe, that has

0:42:240:42:28

almost diminished. We are in pretty

good shape on that front. I'm more

0:42:280:42:32

worried about Russian dirty money in

politics and media over here.

We

0:42:320:42:36

will be talking about this again in

the next half an hour. Thank you to

0:42:360:42:41

John and Edward for speaking to us.

0:42:410:42:44

Coming up...

0:42:440:42:47

Fashion retailer Topman have come

under fire for a shirt that some

0:42:470:42:50

people believe refers

to the Hillsborough disaster -

0:42:500:42:53

we'll be getting reaction.

0:42:530:42:57

They have stopped selling the shirt.

0:42:570:43:03

On this programme we've recently

highlighted a significant rise

0:43:030:43:05

in the number of children

being excluded from school.

0:43:050:43:11

Last year - more than 6500

students were permanently

0:43:110:43:13

kicked out of mainstream schools

in England But WAY more than that -

0:43:130:43:16

48,000 - are being educated

in units set up for children

0:43:160:43:19

who've been excluded.

0:43:190:43:20

Today, the government's

announced plans

0:43:200:43:21

for a review to find out exactly

what's going wrong and why certain

0:43:210:43:24

groups of people are far more

affected by the problem than others.

0:43:240:43:27

For example - if you're

an Afro-Caribbean boy,

0:43:270:43:29

you're three times more likely to be

excluded than other children,

0:43:290:43:32

kids in care are five times more

likely to be excluded.

0:43:320:43:36

Last month, we visited

Hawkswood Primary Pupil

0:43:360:43:38

Referral Unit in London -

it's a school for children,

0:43:380:43:41

who are in danger of being

permanently excluded

0:43:410:43:42

from their mainstream schools.

0:43:420:43:45

Have a look at this short clip

from the programme -

0:43:450:43:48

it features a six-year-old boy

called Kayden, who'd been previously

0:43:480:43:52

excluded and is now learning

to control his behaviour.

0:43:520:43:57

Careful!

0:43:570:44:00

Careful!

0:44:000:44:02

Kayden lives with his

nanny and grandad.

0:44:020:44:05

Sometimes we do family game night.

0:44:050:44:09

What do you play?

0:44:090:44:13

We play Jenga...

0:44:130:44:14

And Pie Face, the new one.

0:44:140:44:16

Grandad?

0:44:160:44:17

Yep?

0:44:170:44:19

After this, when I win...

0:44:190:44:21

When Kayden came into our life,

then I realised there was more

0:44:210:44:24

issues going on than just

a typical little boy.

0:44:240:44:28

The darkest point, I think, for us,

was knowing that he was having

0:44:280:44:31

really bad meltdowns at school,

and the school was

0:44:310:44:34

unable to manage that.

0:44:340:44:36

He was climbing up on furniture,

he was lifting up tables, throwing

0:44:360:44:39

objects around the classrooms.

0:44:390:44:43

It was just really disturbing

for other children to see.

0:44:430:44:46

INDISTINCT SHOUTING.

0:44:460:44:54

Come here.

0:44:540:44:58

Leave me alone!

0:44:580:45:01

I just want to be left alone!

0:45:010:45:04

OK, then, I can take

you to the blue chair,

0:45:040:45:06

I can leave you alone there.

0:45:060:45:07

I just want to be left alone!

0:45:070:45:09

I want to be left alone!

0:45:090:45:11

You want to be left alone?

0:45:110:45:13

It's not safe for me

to leave you here.

0:45:130:45:15

I want to!

0:45:150:45:16

I can leave you alone,

I can leave you alone, but not here.

0:45:160:45:19

Here is not the place.

0:45:190:45:21

I can leave you alone inside

the classroom on the blue chair.

0:45:210:45:24

I don't...!

0:45:240:45:25

You know you're not

allowed to hit me, Kayden.

0:45:250:45:28

I don't even care!

0:45:280:45:29

OK, well, I do care.

0:45:290:45:30

I don't care!

0:45:300:45:32

I don't like it.

0:45:320:45:35

Kayden, why are we

here on the floor?

0:45:370:45:39

Are you able to use your words

and tell me what's happened?

0:45:390:45:42

OK, that's fine, but this isn't

a very safe place to be,

0:45:420:45:45

in the middle of the corridor.

0:45:450:45:47

I don't even care!

0:45:470:45:48

You don't need to care,

you just need to know that we do.

0:45:480:45:51

He almost ran from the noise,

and I would say it distressed him,

0:45:510:45:54

and then that lead onto undesired

behaviour.

0:45:540:45:58

I know that he wanted a little bit

of peace and quiet to calm down.

0:45:580:46:01

Kayden, can we go to a safer

place than the corridor?

0:46:010:46:04

That's a bit quieter?

0:46:040:46:05

He was kind of stuck in the moment,

so you try a few different tactics.

0:46:050:46:09

Well done.

0:46:090:46:10

Can I show you something

before we go?

0:46:100:46:12

I just want to show

you something, look.

0:46:120:46:14

We said, "Oh, have you

seen our new library?

0:46:140:46:16

Do you want to go in?"

0:46:160:46:17

And that was it, he

came right out of it.

0:46:170:46:20

And that's my favourite.

0:46:200:46:21

No way?!

0:46:210:46:22

That is your favourite book?!

0:46:220:46:23

Are you serious?!

0:46:230:46:24

Oh, my goodness!

0:46:240:46:25

Right...

0:46:250:46:26

That's Lego Batman.

0:46:260:46:27

Do you know what we're going to do?

0:46:270:46:34

That was distraction.

0:46:340:46:35

In that moment, that's

what brought him down again.

0:46:350:46:40

So he's been in education

to two and half years

0:46:400:46:43

and still can't read and write.

0:46:430:46:44

He would never have done that.

0:46:440:46:45

He could just about write his name

and maybe single words,

0:46:450:46:48

but that's only since he's

been at Hawkswood.

0:46:480:46:53

There's been a drastic

change in Kayden.

0:46:530:46:55

He can sit down now

for at least five, ten minutes

0:46:550:46:58

and actually play a game.

0:46:580:46:59

He can do a little bit

of reading with us now.

0:46:590:47:02

He can sit, you know,

and just eat his dinner.

0:47:020:47:04

Wow, so did you have

lots of fun at school today?

0:47:040:47:07

We don't take Kayden out very often.

0:47:070:47:08

We struggle with the fact

that we are worried that

0:47:080:47:11

Kayden's going to run off,

or he has meltdowns and then we've

0:47:110:47:14

got to try to explain that

to parents or people that

0:47:140:47:16

are staring and looking.

0:47:160:47:21

And I think it's the hardest thing

is to try to explain

0:47:210:47:24

to someone that, actually,

"I'm really sorry that my child has

0:47:240:47:27

done this to your child,

or done it it to you or whatever,

0:47:270:47:30

but you can't label a child."

0:47:300:47:31

Kayden is not diagnosed,

so until that diagnosis has been

0:47:310:47:34

made, I will not put a label on him.

0:47:340:47:37

A little earlier we spoke

to Nadhim Zahawi, who's the Children

0:47:370:47:40

and Families Minister,

about the government's plans to look

0:47:400:47:42

into why so many children

are being excluded and why certain

0:47:420:47:45

groups are more

affected than others.

0:47:450:47:48

No alternative provision should be

a dumping ground for anyone.

0:47:480:47:51

I think the right thing

to do is for us to review

0:47:510:47:55

what is happening with exclusions

and have a strategy to make sure

0:47:550:47:59

alternative provision is the best

quality we can make it,

0:47:590:48:01

so the outcomes for all those

children, whether they are

0:48:010:48:05

reintegrated into mainstream,

or have to be in alternative

0:48:050:48:08

specialist provision,

actually get the best educational

0:48:080:48:14

attainment, and, of course,

the best outcome in terms

0:48:140:48:16

of employment or training for them

in the future.

0:48:160:48:20

That's the purpose of this.

0:48:200:48:23

It's why we are also launching

the 4 million Innovation Fund

0:48:230:48:28

to look at best practice

in alternative provision and see

0:48:280:48:30

how we scale that up.

0:48:300:48:32

I mentioned the Anna Freud centres

and the work they are doing.

0:48:320:48:35

I think one of your particular

examples of a young man

0:48:350:48:37

at the Everton School...

0:48:370:48:40

The Education Select Committee

hasn't given its final findings.

0:48:400:48:43

It's expected to look pretty

bad for the government.

0:48:430:48:45

Is this why the government

has come out now ahead

0:48:450:48:48

of that final report,

to try and show that it is

0:48:480:48:50

taking some initiative?

0:48:500:48:52

It's not going to look good for you.

0:48:520:48:54

You mentioned the £4 million

that is being ploughed

0:48:540:48:56

into this Innovation Fund.

0:48:560:48:58

£4 million, it's not a lot of money.

0:48:580:49:02

Well, the Education Select Committee

work is incredibly important.

0:49:020:49:06

It is a serious committee,

with serious colleagues,

0:49:060:49:13

a cross-party and they look at this

in real depth and we

0:49:130:49:16

always listen to them.

0:49:160:49:17

I was before them looking

at the fostering review we asked

0:49:170:49:20

of Sir Martin Narey and Mark Owers,

0:49:200:49:22

and of course their own

report into fostering

0:49:220:49:24

in our country this week.

0:49:240:49:29

So their work is

incredibly important.

0:49:290:49:30

But this review and the work

that the Prime Minister has

0:49:300:49:33

asked Ed Timpson to do

is incredibly important.

0:49:330:49:35

Look, she's the first Prime Minister

to actually ask for a race disparity

0:49:350:49:43

order and publish it,

and ask all her departments to step

0:49:430:49:46

up and explain or take action

as to what we do about these things.

0:49:460:49:53

And through that we discover that

Afro-Caribbean boys are three times

0:49:530:49:55

more likely to be excluded.

0:49:550:49:57

This is serious work,

and this idea that somehow we react

0:49:570:50:00

because of the select committee...

0:50:000:50:05

Of course it's important work,

but this has been on our radar

0:50:050:50:09

for a long time, and it's right

that we review what is happening

0:50:090:50:12

as we begin to get outcomes for

children in alternative provision,

0:50:120:50:15

so it's the best possible

that we can make it.

0:50:150:50:23

Let's talk to Gilroy Northover -

he was excluded from school

0:50:240:50:27

and now works at the same

Pupil Referral Unit

0:50:270:50:29

where he was sent.

0:50:290:50:33

Brenda McHugh - set

up the family school,

0:50:330:50:35

an Alternative Provision School in

London.

0:50:350:50:38

And Zack Kelly - he was excluded

from school while in care,

0:50:380:50:41

he went to Everton Free School,

which is an alternative

0:50:410:50:43

provision school.

0:50:430:50:44

He now works at

Everton Football Club.

0:50:440:50:52

I want to start with you because you

were excluded from school when you

0:50:560:51:00

were at 15, what do you put that

down to?

Not enough support at home,

0:51:000:51:06

could you be diagnosed with dyslexia

or something else. Mainstream school

0:51:060:51:20

doesn't dig in that deep to a child

because there's 30 in a class, if

0:51:200:51:25

one is being disruptive get rid of

the one rather than the 29 so we

0:51:250:51:29

don't know if that child has

something going on at home, if that

0:51:290:51:34

child is being abused or neglected.

What was your need that wasn't

0:51:340:51:40

recognised?

I was going through

different things, my mum was a

0:51:400:51:44

single parent of four, I am the

youngest. I was calling out for

0:51:440:51:50

help, however I cannot articulate my

words because as well as being a boy

0:51:500:51:57

child, we are in a generation where

we cannot express our emotions so we

0:51:570:52:00

are in a world where if a man

expresses his emotions it is a sign

0:52:000:52:04

of weakness so you don't want to get

labelled as weakness in secondary

0:52:040:52:08

school because peer pressure comes

into it, you could get bullied, so

0:52:080:52:12

you have to create this bravado

where you have to be at the top.

You

0:52:120:52:17

are strong but crying out for help.

That's right.

Zack, can you identify

0:52:170:52:25

with that? Because you were in care,

then excluded.

It was because I was

0:52:250:52:33

going through a lot of stuff at home

at the time and I was in and out of

0:52:330:52:38

care over the years while I was

still at school. I have a lot going

0:52:380:52:43

on in my head and at home, a lot of

issues going on. When I went into

0:52:430:52:48

school, because I didn't really know

how to release those emotions, when

0:52:480:52:53

I was speaking to someone I would be

lashing out and misbehaving at

0:52:530:52:58

school so that forced me to either

get excluded or suspended due to my

0:52:580:53:04

behaviour.

Does it surprise you when

you hear the statistic that children

0:53:040:53:07

in care are five times more likely

to be excluded from school?

Yes

0:53:070:53:17

because this is crazy because many

people growing up in care, they

0:53:180:53:22

don't necessarily, some people

haven't been kicked out of school

0:53:220:53:28

and people have different stories

and backgrounds. It is quite crazy

0:53:280:53:31

to hear that to be honest because

many people have either got issues

0:53:310:53:40

at home, issues in their personal

life so everyone is going through a

0:53:400:53:43

different story in their life.

0:53:430:53:51

different story in their life. Most

people have been excluded from

0:53:510:53:53

school, being in care, it is a crazy

statistic really.

Let's bring Brenda

0:53:530:53:59

in because I know that you set up

this family school and one of the

0:53:590:54:03

particular focuses is on mental

health support because you see that

0:54:030:54:06

as being... Missing, in mainstream

education?

I think that is why Anna

0:54:060:54:14

Freud set up the family school

because we know from Gilroy and Zack

0:54:140:54:24

that behaviour masks difficulties,

and striving to find out what lies

0:54:240:54:29

behind that behaviour, because that

behaviour is quite often an exit

0:54:290:54:32

from an opportunity to be in a

mainstream school where there are

0:54:320:54:36

lots of life opportunities for young

children. So really important not

0:54:360:54:41

just think is it one thing, but to

have an enquiring mind, to have time

0:54:410:54:46

and the expertise to be able to

think what lies behind this

0:54:460:54:50

behaviour, and what can we do to

support that young person. In the

0:54:500:54:56

case of Gilroy, the family as well,

in order to

0:54:560:55:04

in order to resolve of those

problems because if the family where

0:55:040:55:06

you live is going to support you

back into school, you would need to

0:55:060:55:10

trust they have the skills and

confidence.

What happens if the

0:55:100:55:12

family are not supportive, because I

guess the -- that is the challenge.

0:55:120:55:19

They might not have the time because

of the practicalities of life.

The

0:55:190:55:27

children we meet often tell

heart-rending stories about the

0:55:270:55:31

impact of exclusion on them. They

may be at work, get a phone call,

0:55:310:55:35

they need to pick up their child or

the impact on the other children.

0:55:350:55:40

The family life is completely

disrupted by the exclusion so many

0:55:400:55:45

of our families, by the time they

get together and come to the Family

0:55:450:55:50

School, they say thank goodness, I'm

also meeting other families that

0:55:500:55:55

have felt the shame or hopelessness

of exclusion and now I feel I am

0:55:550:56:00

somewhere, like you were saying,

where I say I actually have

0:56:000:56:06

difficulties and I'm not going to be

judged by this and I'm ready to get

0:56:060:56:10

the help. Families come saying, at

least now we are in the same boat

0:56:100:56:14

and we can begin to think, what is

going wrong with my child?

So what

0:56:140:56:19

is the solution? We spoke about

children in care five times more

0:56:190:56:25

likely to be excluded, black boys

three times more likely to be

0:56:250:56:29

excluded. What is the solution to

that?

The solution, as I said

0:56:290:56:35

before, we need more key workers,

more mentors to come into mainstream

0:56:350:56:39

schools and be one-to-one with these

children, and children need to get

0:56:390:56:44

support at their houses as well. If

they are at work and they cannot

0:56:440:56:48

support them, they should have a key

worker in place for that child.

0:56:480:56:53

People listening to this, and Zack

is nodding his head, the problem is

0:56:530:57:00

lots of secondary schools are in

deficit, there was a real crisis in

0:57:000:57:05

funding. My own children's schools

are forever having meetings about

0:57:050:57:17

how to raise money.

0:57:170:57:24

how to raise money.

In 2020 we

should have 17 schools open across

0:57:240:57:27

different borrowers so we are all

connected and we can all go to

0:57:270:57:32

different units and experience and

learn different things from

0:57:320:57:36

different schools we work in to

improve, as well as see how

0:57:360:57:42

different systems work in different

schools.

Zack, what do you think

0:57:420:57:47

would be a way to tackle this and

stop so many children being

0:57:470:57:53

excluded?

It is similar to what

Gilroy said, there is an really a

0:57:530:57:59

lot of support around young

children. To have meant touring

0:57:590:58:06

scheme in place, if a young person

is getting in trouble and at risk of

0:58:060:58:10

exclusion, so I think it would be

good if there could be a system that

0:58:100:58:19

comes together where, if the child

is in the process of going down the

0:58:190:58:25

wrong road, then they can be pulled

out straightaway again and given the

0:58:250:58:31

support and management may need.

It

is the only intervention we hear

0:58:310:58:34

about so often, and it always comes

down to money which is the tricky

0:58:340:58:38

point. One person has got in touch

saying, possible unconscious bias

0:58:380:58:44

towards Afro-Caribbean boys in my

opinion. School-age black boys who

0:58:440:58:49

hit puberty earlier can be

intimidating to teachers with more

0:58:490:58:54

muscles and a deeper voice than

other demographics but the reality

0:58:540:58:57

is they are still children. Another

one says, it's all about competition

0:58:570:59:01

between schools which means some

schools would rather get rid of kids

0:59:010:59:06

that affect their reputation, this

is wrong and should not be

0:59:060:59:09

happening. Get in touch on the

hashtag Victoria live. Thank you so

0:59:090:59:16

much for coming in this morning. Now

let's get the latest weather with

0:59:160:59:20

Lucy Martin. It's not going to be a

good weekend, is it?

0:59:200:59:30

It's turning much colder as we head

into the weekend with a mini beast

0:59:300:59:34

from east bringing colder

conditions. By the time we get to

0:59:340:59:38

tomorrow we are struggling to reach

five Celsius after a potential 14

0:59:380:59:42

today. Mixed fortunes with how much

sunshine we'll see. This photo from

0:59:420:59:46

North Wales but it's brighter in

Kent, blue skies to start the day,

0:59:460:59:52

although there are patches of mist

and fog. Outbreaks of rain today

0:59:520:59:56

across north-east Scotland and North

East England, some falling as snow

0:59:560:59:59

over high ground. Cloudy with

outbreaks of rain over Northern

0:59:591:00:03

Ireland and north-west England.

Brightening up with rain in the

1:00:031:00:06

Midlands and North Wales, good

spells of sunshine, but perhaps some

1:00:061:00:14

heavy and thundery showers. A high

of 14 Celsius but it will be windy

1:00:141:00:18

in the north. This evening and

overnight, the rain will turn to

1:00:181:00:21

snow even of lower levels and it

will start to sink South and West

1:00:211:00:25

into parts of the Midlands, East

Anglia and maybe Wales as well. The

1:00:251:00:29

wind started to strengthen in the

south with temperatures largely

1:00:291:00:32

falling below zero. The far

south-west holding onto some

1:00:321:00:34

slightly milder temperatures. As we

move on to the weekend, high

1:00:341:00:40

pressure over Scandinavia, pulling

in really cold air from the east, a

1:00:401:00:45

similar setup to what we saw a few

weeks ago. Doesn't look like it will

1:00:451:00:49

be for as long, just the weekend. A

much colder start to tomorrow,

1:00:491:00:54

Apache outbreaks of rain, sleet and

snow clearing the south-west in the

1:00:541:00:57

morning. Snow showers feeding in

from East. The far north-west just

1:00:571:01:03

staying dry in Scotland.

Temperatures staying largely in low

1:01:031:01:06

single figures, but when we had in

the brisk north-easterly wind, it's

1:01:061:01:11

feeling significantly colder, -7 in

Norwich. As we head into Sunday,

1:01:111:01:15

perhaps a longer spell of snow for a

time. A little bit of uncertainty as

1:01:151:01:23

to the exact position of the sunny

spells. Stay tuned to the forecast.

1:01:231:01:28

Cold start the day on Sunday, some

of ice. Possible disruption. Snow

1:01:281:01:35

patches moving west as we had

through the day. It will not feel

1:01:351:01:39

warm with temperatures in the single

figures when we add in the wind,

1:01:391:01:44

feeling very cold. Into the weekend,

thing turning colder. Perhaps

1:01:441:01:52

turning to 14 Celsius today, but

struggling over the weekend. The

1:01:521:01:56

wind will make it feel significant

the colder and there is some snow in

1:01:561:02:00

the forecast. Take care and keep

up-to-date with the forecast as we

1:02:001:02:03

head into the next few days.

1:02:031:02:05

Hello it's Friday, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Chloe Tilley...

1:02:111:02:15

Our top story - calls

for Jeremy Corbyn to take

1:02:151:02:17

a tougher line after he warns

against 'hasty judgements' over

1:02:171:02:20

who poisoned a Russian

spy and his daughter.

1:02:201:02:22

In a newspaper article he says

'let's not manufacture a division

1:02:221:02:24

over Russia where none exists'.

1:02:241:02:26

The evidence points

towards Russia on this.

1:02:261:02:27

Therefore, the responsibility

must be borne by those

1:02:271:02:29

that made the weapon,

those that brought the weapon

1:02:291:02:31

into the country and those

that used the weapon.

1:02:311:02:34

What I was asking were questions -

1:02:341:02:36

questions about the

identity of the weapon.

1:02:361:02:42

Questions about the reference

to the Weapons Convention.

1:02:421:02:44

And also the support

of other allies in this.

1:02:441:02:51

If you are a nation ans=d nother

nation has launched a nerve agent

1:02:511:02:54

attack on your people,

then we have every right to tell

1:02:541:02:57

Russia to shut up and go away.

1:02:571:02:58

I think the Prime Minister

was absolutely right to expel those

1:02:581:03:01

diplomats and the actions

we are taking.

1:03:011:03:05

We'll get reaction to this -

and find out whether other countries

1:03:051:03:08

- who've said they support

Theresa May - are likely to take any

1:03:081:03:11

action against Russia.

1:03:111:03:12

One of the nation's favourite soaps

Coronation Street is to screen

1:03:121:03:15

a harrowing male rape storyline.

1:03:151:03:19

We'll hear from one man

who has been raped twice

1:03:191:03:23

and also from Coronation

Street's producer.

1:03:231:03:28

Retailer Top Man tells this

programme it will no

1:03:281:03:29

longer sell this shirt

after criticism from some people

1:03:291:03:32

who believe it refers

to the Hillsborough disaster.

1:03:321:03:34

When the £20 shirt went on sale

online and in stores it

1:03:341:03:37

provoked a furious reaction

from Liverpool fans,

1:03:371:03:39

who took to Twitter.

1:03:391:03:44

The retailer Top Man told this

programme it apologises

1:03:441:03:46

unreservedly for any offence caused

by the shirt and has

1:03:461:03:49

removed it from sale.

1:03:491:03:57

It's coming up to 10.0 4am. We can

go to the BBC newsroom for a summary

1:03:581:04:08

of today's news.

1:04:081:04:11

Officials in Florida say six

people have been killed

1:04:111:04:13

by a footbridge which collapsed

onto a busy road in Miami.

1:04:131:04:16

Eight vehicles were crushed

when the walkway gave way, less

1:04:161:04:18

than a week after being installed.

1:04:181:04:20

The bridge at Florida

International University

1:04:201:04:21

was put up in one day,

using a technique designed

1:04:211:04:24

to minimise traffic disruption.

1:04:241:04:25

Police say rescue teams

will work throughout the day

1:04:251:04:27

to search for survivors,

but the number of dead

1:04:271:04:29

is likely to rise.

1:04:291:04:31

This has turned from a rescue into a

recovery operation. We are able to

1:04:311:04:37

confirm to you at this point, and

you have to stand this is a very

1:04:371:04:40

slow process and they are still

working away at the concrete.

1:04:401:04:42

Engineers told us last night that it

has to be done very carefully, not

1:04:421:04:46

only because of the fact we have to

preserve evidence and there may be

1:04:461:04:51

possible victims under there and we

have to treat it delicately, but

1:04:511:04:54

also the safety of the rescuers as

well. Because of the unstable nature

1:04:541:05:00

of the bridge right now. It's a very

slow process and they have been

1:05:001:05:03

working all night long. They are

still working. We can confirm at

1:05:031:05:08

this point that at least there are

six fatalities.

1:05:081:05:12

They are saying at least,

because there is the possibility,

1:05:121:05:14

the sad possibility,

that under the concrete there may be

1:05:141:05:16

additional vehicles.

1:05:161:05:19

And they are trying to work at it,

the engineers are working at it

1:05:191:05:23

in a very tactical way.

1:05:231:05:24

Because again, as I mentioned

before, the structure is very

1:05:241:05:28

fragile and it could be very

dangerous to rescue personnel

1:05:281:05:31

that are still there,

people that are working.

1:05:311:05:34

Russia's foreign

minister, Sergei Lavrov,

1:05:341:05:35

has confirmed Moscow will expel

British diplomats.

1:05:351:05:38

The move follows Theresa May's

expulsion of 23 staff

1:05:381:05:40

from the Russian embassy in London,

over the nerve agent

1:05:401:05:42

attack in Salisbury.

1:05:421:05:45

Jeremy Corbyn has again questioned

Russia's involvement

1:05:451:05:48

in the poisoning of the former spy,

Sergei Skripal, and

1:05:481:05:51

his daughter, Yulia.

1:05:511:05:55

One in four council-run

secondary schools in England

1:05:551:05:57

is running at a loss,

according to new research

1:05:571:05:59

by the Education Policy Institute.

1:05:591:06:00

The number of schools

in deficit has nearly trebled

1:06:001:06:02

in the last four years.

1:06:021:06:04

The government says it doesn't

recognise the report's findings,

1:06:041:06:09

and is putting an extra

£1.3 billion into schools.

1:06:091:06:14

One in four council-run

secondary schools in England

1:06:141:06:16

is running at a loss,

according to new research

1:06:161:06:18

by the Education Policy Institute.

1:06:181:06:20

The number of schools

in deficit has nearly trebled

1:06:201:06:22

in the last four years.

1:06:221:06:24

The government says it doesn't

recognise the report's findings,

1:06:241:06:26

and is putting an extra

£1.3 billion into schools.

1:06:261:06:30

MPs say they've been unable

to identify a border solution

1:06:301:06:34

operating anywhere in the world that

would enable an invisible border

1:06:341:06:37

to continue between Northern Ireland

and the Irish Republic after Brexit.

1:06:371:06:40

The Northern Ireland Affairs

Committee has called

1:06:401:06:41

on the government to set out more

details on how it will manage

1:06:411:06:44

the movement of people and goods

across the Irish border.

1:06:441:06:47

It's also warned that,

without a transition period,

1:06:471:06:49

there won't be enough time to put

new arrangements in place

1:06:491:06:51

by withdrawal day.

1:06:511:06:54

Egypt is to send a delegation

of MPs to the UK,

1:06:541:06:57

following the death of an Egyptian

student in Nottingham.

1:06:571:07:00

18-year-old Mariam Moustafa

died on Wednesday,

1:07:001:07:01

nearly a month after being attacked

in the city centre.

1:07:011:07:04

The hashtag "Mariam's rights

will not be lost" has

1:07:041:07:06

been trending in Egypt.

1:07:061:07:14

Syrian activists say

nearly 20,000 civilians

1:07:151:07:16

left the rebel enclave

of Eastern Ghouta yesterday,

1:07:161:07:18

in the biggest displacement

of people since government forces

1:07:181:07:21

intensified their

assault last month.

1:07:211:07:22

The British-based Syrian Observatory

for Human Rights says

1:07:221:07:24

the exodus stopped when rebels

launched a counter-attack.

1:07:241:07:32

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30.

1:07:381:07:44

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

1:07:441:07:49

use the hashtag Victoria Live

1:07:491:07:51

and if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

1:07:511:07:57

Time for some sports now. Another

day to forget for Great Britain's

1:07:571:08:02

Benmore, James Barnes Miller and

Owen Pickard after they failed to

1:08:021:08:05

make the podium in the boardercross

earlier this week. Paralympics GB

1:08:051:08:08

have five medals in Pyeongchang,

behind the UK sport target of 6-12

1:08:081:08:16

with two days after competition.

I'm

gutted. This was my event. I came

1:08:161:08:20

here to do well in this event and

I'm upset. But there's nothing I can

1:08:201:08:24

do about it now. I can't change what

happened. I did whatever I could and

1:08:241:08:28

it wasn't enough this time.

1:08:281:08:38

Arsenal will find out this morning

who they'll play in the quarter

1:08:391:08:42

finals of the Eurpa League.

1:08:421:08:43

Danny Welbeck scored twice last

night as they beat AC Milan 3-1

1:08:431:08:46

with Arsene Wenger's side cruising

through 5-1 on aggregate.

1:08:461:08:48

Wenger says he wants

to avoid Atletico Madrid,

1:08:481:08:50

when the draw is made at midday

and After losing to Manchester City

1:08:501:08:53

twice and Brighton before the first

leg he believes they've proved a few

1:08:531:08:56

people wrong.

1:08:561:08:57

We had a nightmare week. And to

recover from that you need to be

1:08:571:09:03

mentally strong. You need to be

solid. And the team needs to show a

1:09:031:09:10

together response. That's what we

did. Overall, I think many people

1:09:101:09:19

didn't expect us to respond like we

did.

1:09:191:09:25

Leg-spinner Mason Crane will miss

England's Test tour of New Zealand,

1:09:271:09:30

which starts on Thursday.

1:09:301:09:31

He has a stress fracture

in his lower back and will be

1:09:311:09:34

flying home for treatment,

with Somerset spinner Jack Leach

1:09:341:09:36

earning his first call

up in place of Crane.

1:09:361:09:40

England had a good day

in the field overnight.

1:09:401:09:42

Their bowlers took 13

wickets on the opening day

1:09:421:09:44

of their second warm-up match

against a New Zealand XI.

1:09:441:09:47

The tourists chose to stay

in the field all day for bowling

1:09:471:09:50

practice ahead of the first Test

and James Anderson is happy

1:09:501:09:52

with his side's efforts.

1:09:521:09:53

Today felt like a Test match

intensity out there. I thought all

1:09:531:09:59

the bowlers bowled with that

intensity. We threw ourselves around

1:09:591:10:02

in the field for me had the

opportunity. That's as much as we

1:10:021:10:06

can do. It's a short turnaround on

this tour so that's as much as we

1:10:061:10:10

can do. We have to use the next few

days wisely. Boulders potentially

1:10:101:10:15

bowling another spell in the nets

tomorrow while we are batting. And

1:10:151:10:19

then we have a couple of days in

Auckland to get ourselves up for the

1:10:191:10:24

first test.

The Cheltenham Festival

comes to a to date with the biggest

1:10:241:10:28

prize, the Gold cup. Incredibly,

it's a race to be very successful

1:10:281:10:32

trainer Willie Mullins has never

won. He goes this afternoon with

1:10:321:10:38

Djakadam. He has trained well this

afternoon, has had a couple of

1:10:381:10:41

winners already this week, including

Penhill yesterday. Rival trainer

1:10:411:10:46

Nicky Henderson is also sending out

a horse and rider. Lots of you

1:10:461:10:57

getting in touch with us this

morning about a conversation on

1:10:571:11:00

exclusion that we had before the

news.

1:11:001:11:02

A couple of teachers getting in

touch, Constance, a retired teacher

1:11:021:11:07

says on e-mail, the rising number of

children being excluded from school,

1:11:071:11:10

especially in a primary sector is

due to the fact the national

1:11:101:11:14

curriculum is so directed towards

results and a one size fits all that

1:11:141:11:19

many children feel frustrated, react

in ways that are not appropriate in

1:11:191:11:22

the classroom. It's not the fault of

the children. Education is about the

1:11:221:11:27

individual child and the curriculum

should meet their needs. Richard is

1:11:271:11:29

also a teacher and says, as a

teacher I am completely enraged by

1:11:291:11:34

this discussion. We work

ridiculously hard to support all the

1:11:341:11:37

children in our classrooms. We are

well aware that many children have

1:11:371:11:41

difficulties at home and

emotionally. We support these

1:11:411:11:44

children in class and do all we can.

We need to remember that we are

1:11:441:11:48

judged by the government. If one

child is throwing things around the

1:11:481:11:52

classroom and is a risk to his or

her peers physically then without

1:11:521:11:55

the money to employ more staff to

support them, what are we supposed

1:11:551:12:02

to do? Thank you for getting in

touch and sharing your experiences.

1:12:021:12:04

Has your child being excluded, or

does your child go to a school where

1:12:041:12:07

others have been excluded? Get in

touch.

1:12:071:12:11

The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

has used a newspaper

1:12:111:12:13

article to again question

whether Russia was responsible

1:12:131:12:15

for the nerve agent

attack in Salisbury.

1:12:151:12:17

Writing in the Guardian,

he said the government must

1:12:171:12:19

avoid "hasty judgments".

1:12:191:12:22

The US, Germany, France and now

Australia have backed the UK's

1:12:221:12:26

conclusion that Russia carried out

the attack on the former double

1:12:261:12:34

agent Sergei Skripal

and his daughter Yulia.

1:12:351:12:38

Earlier this month.

1:12:381:12:41

Russia's Foreign Minister,

Sergei Lavrov, said British

1:12:411:12:45

diplomats will be expelled

in response to the expulsion

1:12:451:12:47

of Russian intelligence officers

brought about by the poisoning

1:12:471:12:49

of a former spy in Salisbury.

1:12:491:12:50

Will other countries back their

words of support for Theresa May

1:12:501:12:53

with actions against Russia?

1:12:531:12:58

Let's speak now to Paul Knott -

1:12:581:13:00

a former diplomat who worked

on the Litvinenko case and author

1:13:001:13:03

of 'The Accidental Diplomat'.

1:13:031:13:07

Radek Sikorski -

former Polish Foreign Minister

1:13:071:13:10

and to Amelia Hadfield -

1:13:101:13:11

Professor of European

and International Relations

1:13:111:13:13

at Canterbury University.

1:13:131:13:16

Paul, let me begin with you, let's

talk about the response from Russia

1:13:161:13:20

and the tit-for-tat that was very

much expected. Do you expect them to

1:13:201:13:24

go further than just expelling

diplomats?

As far as we know,

1:13:241:13:29

probably not at this stage. I think

they will probably do that and then

1:13:291:13:34

wait to see what we do next with our

allies before they take further

1:13:341:13:37

steps. But clearly they are in a

very aggressive mode. So anything is

1:13:371:13:44

possible right now.

Do you think

this is likely to escalate between

1:13:441:13:48

Britain and Russia? We have had talk

of another Cold War.

Sometimes I

1:13:481:13:54

think we need to think about the

relationship with Russia. There is

1:13:541:13:59

this one awful incident in Britain

on the back of previous ones as

1:13:591:14:04

well. I think we are seeing our

allies kind of rallying to our side

1:14:041:14:11

because things have happened in

their countries as well, and

1:14:111:14:14

everyone is well aware of the danger

Russia poses now. I think it's quite

1:14:141:14:20

possible that we are going to end up

heading towards a situation that's a

1:14:201:14:25

little bit reminiscent of the Cold

War, where Russia becomes a country

1:14:251:14:31

that we need to find ways to work

with, where we have to do, to try

1:14:311:14:35

and keep the peace in the world as

much as we can. But also that it

1:14:351:14:43

becomes a country that needs to be

contained and deterred, as was the

1:14:431:14:47

case in the Cold War.

Do you think

the response has been proportionate,

1:14:471:14:53

both from Theresa May and the

Russians, Radek.

Diplomatic

1:14:531:14:59

expulsions are standard fare. Nobody

in the Kremlin will be impressed by

1:14:591:15:02

that. What they would be impressed

by is the fact that London being the

1:15:021:15:08

European capital of Russian

money-laundering, if the British

1:15:081:15:13

authorities imposed the kinds of

targeted sanctions that other

1:15:131:15:17

countries have adopted under the

Magnitsky Act, the exclusion of

1:15:171:15:20

these bands, and asset freezes on

people who either break human rights

1:15:201:15:29

or are engaged in large-scale

corruption, they would notice this.

1:15:291:15:33

-- Visa bans.

Is that likely in the

light of Brexit and Russian money

1:15:331:15:43

needed in the UK?

Putin has gambled

that Theresa May will not do it. If

1:15:431:15:47

there is a choice between the London

business model and national

1:15:471:15:51

security, the London and the city

will Trump it. And therefore the

1:15:511:15:54

response will be muted, just as

after the Litvinenko case.

Amelia,

1:15:541:15:58

is that what you think, that Russia

and Putin see Britain as weak and

1:15:581:16:02

not going to do a lot about this?

1:16:021:16:04

It's always interesting with regard

to the timing of these issues. I

1:16:091:16:13

know that Brexit is a variable in

the Putin mindset, let's also

1:16:131:16:19

remember there is a Russian election

coming up this weekend so there are

1:16:191:16:24

domestic factors and National

factors as well. I would have to

1:16:241:16:28

agree with Radek, it's the standard

tit for tat but the idea of adopting

1:16:281:16:39

Magnitsky style sanctions would up

the aunty and as Jeremy Corbyn made

1:16:391:16:46

clear in his article in the

Guardian, a much wider crackdown on

1:16:461:16:49

money laundering. Going through the

House of Commons at this point, I

1:16:491:16:55

think on its third reading. The

sanctions and anti-money-laundering

1:16:551:17:01

bill. It hasn't been picked up in

the media whole lot. Some of those

1:17:011:17:11

sanctions can be utilised in this

instance. Financial sanctions, but

1:17:111:17:20

also immigration sanctions, trade

sanctions, and even ones that

1:17:201:17:22

dovetail with a variety of other

sanctions for the purpose of UN

1:17:221:17:27

obligations so

1:17:271:17:36

obligations so although... If you

have to make a move with regards to

1:17:371:17:40

diplomacy and foreign policy in

general, make it for the right

1:17:401:17:45

reasons.

Paul, let's talk about the

timing because there is the Russian

1:17:451:17:50

presidential election this weekend.

Do you get a sense having worked in

1:17:501:17:54

Moscow that this is about President

Putin flexing his muscles

1:17:541:18:00

dramatically cutting we can still go

to Britain and attempt to kill

1:18:001:18:03

people on their soil, and leave a

nerve agent with a Russian stamp on

1:18:031:18:08

it?

Yes, I think it is part of a

pattern of the way Putin and his

1:18:081:18:14

regime have been behaving for

several years now, he's gone very

1:18:141:18:20

strongly into... They have had

economic problems, he has been there

1:18:201:18:24

a long time, questions over

legitimacy so he's focused very hard

1:18:241:18:29

on taking actions that can be

portrayed as rebuilding Russia is a

1:18:291:18:34

great power in the world.

Unfortunately they have done it in a

1:18:341:18:39

highly destructive manner that has

cost lots of people their lives and

1:18:391:18:43

created a great degree of turbulence

in the world. But yes, I think there

1:18:431:18:49

is certainly a strong element of the

path he is pursuing to stir up

1:18:491:18:54

nationalist feeling in Russia.

Do

you feel the response from European

1:18:541:19:00

countries, from the European Union,

has been strong enough to stand

1:19:001:19:04

shoulder to shoulder with Britain?

The president of the European

1:19:041:19:08

Council made a quick and powerful

statement and allies have rallied

1:19:081:19:11

round but the Russians see us as

weak hypocrites and they will look

1:19:111:19:17

not to what we say but what we do.

That remains to be seen.

So do you

1:19:171:19:24

think that, I mean one of the things

that has been raised today is

1:19:241:19:28

whether European countries will be

good on their word. It is all very

1:19:281:19:32

well signing a statement and saying

we support Theresa May, but do you

1:19:321:19:36

think any of them will take action?

The action should be the sort of

1:19:361:19:41

thing that will be effective, and

what would be effective would be to

1:19:411:19:45

address the Russian elites' way of

life which is to steal money from

1:19:451:19:51

the people of Russia and then secure

it and enjoy it in the west. We can

1:19:511:19:57

do something about it but it is

London that is the European capital

1:19:571:20:01

of this is so uniquely Britain can

take the lead on this issue.

Let's

1:20:011:20:06

talk about gas supplies because that

is also one issue that is being

1:20:061:20:10

raised by the tabloid media in

recent days, about the reliance by

1:20:101:20:14

the UK and Britain on Russian gas

supplies. How worried should we be

1:20:141:20:20

about the gas being switched off?

Not too worried, Britain is not too

1:20:201:20:26

reliant on Russian gas, it is a lot

more the European countries. More

1:20:261:20:32

interestingly, I think with regards

to gas stoppages, the signal they

1:20:321:20:36

sent from Russia and again it is not

simply the words that emanate in

1:20:361:20:41

terms of a crisis like this, it is

very much reactions as Radek said

1:20:411:20:47

and Russian it is able to use

different types of foreign policy

1:20:471:20:53

tools, gas stoppages being one of

them. We have seen in the last

1:20:531:20:57

decade a range of things moving on

beyond that. We have seen the use of

1:20:571:21:04

food embargo is with the Baltics,

forms of interference with the

1:21:041:21:09

Balkans, cyber attacks on the UK and

on the German parliament, and also

1:21:091:21:14

the rapacious use of fake news and

unqualified media attacks as well,

1:21:141:21:19

and meddling in the US. To return to

the energy issue, the most recent

1:21:191:21:24

supposed attack has been the cyber

assault on the American energy grid

1:21:241:21:28

and aspects of the American

strategic structures there and that

1:21:281:21:33

is the reason for the American

ratcheting up if you like on their

1:21:331:21:38

particular sanctions. So there's a

whole range of different types of

1:21:381:21:43

interference flowing from Russia at

this point and I think if America

1:21:431:21:47

and the UK wants to move back, they

are going to have to come up with

1:21:471:21:51

some very action -based response

perhaps, and this was suggested in

1:21:511:21:55

the last couple of days by a variety

of members of Parliament, that UK

1:21:551:22:00

cyber attacks on Russia could be

suggested.

Forgive me for jumping

1:22:001:22:05

in, I just want to get a view from

Paul on where you think we are in a

1:22:051:22:11

scale, if you like, of our relations

with Russia, if we look historically

1:22:111:22:16

how bad and good they have been,

where do we sit on the scale right

1:22:161:22:19

now?

It is pretty bad, certainly as

bad again as it was at the time of

1:22:191:22:25

the nuclear material attack on

Alexander Litvinenko. It is as bad

1:22:251:22:34

as it has been for decades.

Sometimes there is a little bit

1:22:341:22:40

of... You don't have good relations

for the sake of it. Sometimes poor

1:22:401:22:46

relations, bad relations are what

you need to have with the country or

1:22:461:22:50

a regime that is behaving in this

appalling way all over the world.

1:22:501:22:59

Thank you for taking the time out to

speak to us this morning, I'm very

1:22:591:23:03

grateful to you.

1:23:031:23:13

Topman has been forced to stop

selling this T-shirt -

1:23:171:23:19

after relatives of those killed

in the Hillsborough disaster said

1:23:191:23:22

it was disrespectful to the 96

Liverpool fans who died.

1:23:221:23:24

The store has apologised for any

offence caused and says

1:23:241:23:30

the wording on the shirt,

which reads "what goes around comes

1:23:301:23:35

back around" was a reference

to a Bob Marley song.

1:23:351:23:40

I'm joined in the studio

by our correspondent Sarah Corker,

1:23:401:23:42

and via webcam by Lou Brookes,

whose brother Andrew

1:23:421:23:44

died at Hillsborough.

1:23:441:23:45

He was 26 years old.

1:23:451:23:48

We have seen the shirt but just

explain why many Liverpool fans are

1:23:481:23:55

deeply insulted by this.

It is a red

shirt with the words calm down one

1:23:551:24:01

side, on the back the big 96, rose,

and the words "What goes round comes

1:24:011:24:08

back around". It was on sale for

£20, and as top man said it was a

1:24:081:24:13

reference to the bot Marley song

released in 1996 but since the shirt

1:24:131:24:19

was spotted online by fans on

Thursday there has been a strong

1:24:191:24:22

reaction. They described it as sick

and offensive because they think it

1:24:221:24:27

is an inadvertent reference to the

Hillsborough disaster when 96 fans

1:24:271:24:32

died. The red is the colour of

Liverpool football club, the rose

1:24:321:24:37

motif appears on the Hillsborough

Memorial and the shirt has been

1:24:371:24:44

withdrawn.

Topman as saying it is

about Bob Marley song, but football

1:24:441:24:51

fans are saying how did this ever

get through?

We have had a statement

1:24:511:24:56

the last half-hour from Topman

saying "Topman apologises

1:24:561:25:02

unreservedly for any offence caused

by this T-shirt. The design was

1:25:021:25:05

inspired by a Bob Marley tracks with

the number referring to the year of

1:25:051:25:10

the rerelease. The garment has been

removed from sale online and in

1:25:101:25:14

stores"

1:25:141:25:14

removed from sale online and in

stores". But the big question is how

1:25:141:25:20

did anyone in the design team not

see the connection? How on earth it

1:25:201:25:24

got through, those are the questions

Topman will be asking. We have had a

1:25:241:25:29

lot of reaction online, we have

heard from the MP for Wirral South

1:25:291:25:34

who took to Twitter to express her

concern. "No Idea what was behind

1:25:341:25:39

this but it is very unfortunate.

Hope Topman discontinue the shirt as

1:25:391:25:44

soon as possible, and they have

acted quickly".

Thank you, let's

1:25:441:25:51

speak to Lou, thank you for taking

time out to speak to us this

1:25:511:25:57

morning. What did you think when you

saw this shirt?

First I just want to

1:25:571:26:03

make it crystal clear that it is not

just Liverpool fans and bereaved

1:26:031:26:10

families and survivors over

reacting, this was actually brought

1:26:101:26:16

to light by a member of the public

who has no emotional ties to

1:26:161:26:22

Hillsborough whatsoever. So it is

obviously not just us Hillsborough

1:26:221:26:27

families and the survivors and

Liverpool fans who are connecting

1:26:271:26:32

the dots shall we say. But going

back to your question, initially

1:26:321:26:37

when I was sent the photograph last

night, I did gasp and I thought here

1:26:371:26:43

we go again, it is four weeks away

from the 29th anniversary and it

1:26:431:26:48

just brought back memories of the

guy who wore the T-shirt about two

1:26:481:26:54

years ago, you know. And initially

then I started seeing comments

1:26:541:26:57

about, well, is a brand so I googled

it, and all I could find was a

1:26:571:27:07

women's brand, nothing to do with

Topman. Then I thought, it is in

1:27:071:27:13

red, why not another colour. But it

is the rose for me because the rose

1:27:131:27:17

is very significant to Hillsborough.

I just thought, and if you notice

1:27:171:27:23

the wording of the Bob Marley song

isn't the same wording as actually

1:27:231:27:27

what is on the T-shirt.

Do you think

this is an oversight and Topman have

1:27:271:27:35

made a mistake or are you suggesting

this is something more vindictive?

I

1:27:351:27:42

personally think, I mean I did try

to take a step back and try to be

1:27:421:27:46

rational about it, but I just think

there's too many coincidences and

1:27:461:27:51

also why didn't they put 1996 on the

shirt? Why 96? And I think it is

1:27:511:28:02

quite interesting of the timing. We

are four weeks away from the 29th

1:28:021:28:08

anniversary. Don't forget as well,'s

families and survivors, for 29 years

1:28:081:28:14

old we have

1:28:141:28:21

old we have heard is Hillsborough is

God's way of punishing the Liverpool

1:28:211:28:25

fans for Hysen. That's what hurts so

much and that's why I do believe

1:28:251:28:32

this T-shirt is definitely connected

and referenced to Hillsborough.

Let

1:28:321:28:41

me read you some comments. Tom on

Twitter says not exactly a retail

1:28:411:28:47

masterstroke by Topman, if there are

any references to any tragedy it is

1:28:471:28:51

best for all concerned to even them.

Also, "To profit from a disaster is

1:28:511:29:00

horrendous, who in the company

approved this design?" Steve

1:29:001:29:05

Sweeting, "Massive oversight, it's

possible those who signed it off

1:29:051:29:09

didn't have any knowledge on this

but Hillsborough is the first thing

1:29:091:29:12

I thought of when I saw it."

Sorry

to interrupt but the point I'm

1:29:121:29:18

making is it is the general public

who have raised this issue and my

1:29:181:29:25

mum was the same when she was alive,

Louise, when everyone is saying the

1:29:251:29:31

same thing everyone cannot be wrong

and that's when you need to listen

1:29:311:29:34

to what everyone is saying. When the

general public, who have no

1:29:341:29:39

emotional ties or connections to

Hillsborough are raising this and

1:29:391:29:43

complaining, and bringing the issue

to survivors and bereaved family

1:29:431:29:49

members, 1.I would like to make

before you go is some of us families

1:29:491:29:55

are really struggling at the moment.

Some of us suffer with anxiety,

1:29:551:30:00

panic attacks, depression, and some

of us are struggling more since

1:30:001:30:07

verdict day. When we wake up each

day and see things like this,

1:30:071:30:11

especially around an anniversary, it

really hurts. A 96 and the survivors

1:30:111:30:19

did nothing wrong that day and I am

fed up to the back teeth of our 96

1:30:191:30:25

being used to score points off the

field. Keep your score pointing on

1:30:251:30:31

the pitch and not off it. These are

innocent people, we are human

1:30:311:30:38

beings, we feel, we have never done

anything wrong to anybody.

And we

1:30:381:30:43

can hear from the passion in your

voice absolutely, you put it so

1:30:431:30:46

eloquently so thank you for speaking

to us today. It is worth reiterating

1:30:461:30:53

that Topman is saying this was

inspired by a Bob Marley track.

1:30:531:30:58

Time for the latest news.

1:30:581:31:00

Here's Reeta with the BBC

News headlines this morning.

1:31:001:31:03

Officials in Florida say six

people have been killed

1:31:031:31:06

by a footbridge which collapsed

onto a busy road in Miami.

1:31:061:31:08

Eight vehicles were crushed

when the walkway gave way, less

1:31:081:31:11

than a week after being installed.

1:31:111:31:12

The bridge at Florida

International University

1:31:121:31:14

was put up in one day,

using a technique designed

1:31:141:31:16

to minimise traffic disruption.

1:31:161:31:18

Police say rescue teams

will work throughout the day

1:31:181:31:20

to search for survivors,

but the number of dead

1:31:201:31:22

is likely to rise.

1:31:221:31:29

Russia's foreign

minister, Sergei Lavrov,

1:31:291:31:30

has confirmed Moscow will expel

British diplomats.

1:31:301:31:32

The move follows Theresa May's

expulsion of 23 staff

1:31:321:31:34

from the Russian embassy in London,

over the nerve agent

1:31:341:31:37

attack in Salisbury.

1:31:371:31:38

Jeremy Corbyn has again questioned

Russia's involvement

1:31:381:31:39

in the poisoning of the former spy,

Sergei Skripal, and

1:31:391:31:42

his daughter Julia.

1:31:421:31:45

his daughter Yulia.

1:31:451:31:48

One in four council-run

secondary schools in England

1:31:481:31:50

is running at a loss,

according to new research

1:31:501:31:52

by the Education Policy Institute.

1:31:521:31:53

The proportion of schools

in deficit has nearly trebled

1:31:531:31:56

in the last four years.

1:31:561:31:57

The government says it doesn't

recognise the report's findings,

1:31:571:32:01

and is putting an extra

£1.3 billion into schools.

1:32:011:32:06

Syrian activists say nearly 20,000

civilians left the rebel enclave of

1:32:061:32:10

Eastern Ghouta yesterday in the

biggest displacement of people since

1:32:101:32:14

government forces intensified their

assault last month.

1:32:141:32:20

The British-based Syrian Observatory

for Human Rights says

1:32:201:32:22

the exodus stopped when rebels

launched a counter-attack.

1:32:221:32:27

Egypt is to send a delegation

of MPs to the UK,

1:32:271:32:29

following the death of an Egyptian

student in Nottingham.

1:32:291:32:32

18-year-old Mariam Moustafa

died on Wednesday,

1:32:321:32:33

nearly a month after being attacked

in the city centre.

1:32:331:32:35

The hashtag "Mariam's rights

will not be lost" has

1:32:351:32:38

been trending in Egypt.

1:32:381:32:39

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

1:32:391:32:41

Sport now with Will.

1:32:411:32:42

Great Britain's snowboarders have

all missed out on medals

1:32:421:32:44

in their Winter Paralympic

banked slalom events.

1:32:441:32:49

Another day to forget for Owen Pick,

as well as Ben Moore

1:32:491:32:51

and James Barnes-Miller.

1:32:511:32:53

Paralympics GB have five

medals in Pyeongchang,

1:32:531:33:01

behind the UK Sport target of 6-12

with just 2 days left.

1:33:021:33:05

Arsenal will find out this morning

who they'll play in the quarter

1:33:051:33:08

finals of the Eurpa League.

1:33:081:33:09

Danny Welbwck scored twice last

night as they beat AC Milan

1:33:091:33:12

3-1, 5-1 on aggregate.

1:33:121:33:13

Leg-spinner Mason Crane will miss

England's Test tour of New Zealand

1:33:131:33:15

because of a back injury.

1:33:151:33:17

He's been replaced by

Somerset's Jack Leach.

1:33:171:33:18

The two-Test series begins

in Auckland next Thursday.

1:33:181:33:20

The Cheltenham Festival

comes to a close today,

1:33:201:33:22

with the biggest prize -

the Gold Cup.

1:33:221:33:24

It's a race the hugely successful

trainer Willie Mullins has never won

1:33:241:33:32

Djakadam

1:33:331:33:33

he'll try again this

afternoon with Djakadum.

1:33:331:33:35

His rival trainer Nicky Henderson

sends out Might Bite.

1:33:351:33:40

One of the nation's favourite soaps

Coronation Street will tonight

1:33:401:33:43

broadcast the start of a major

storyline focusing on male rape.

1:33:431:33:45

The plot will see the character

David Platt raped by male mechanic

1:33:451:33:48

and personal trainer Josh Tucker.

1:33:481:33:49

In the coming weeks the soap

will chart the characters struggle

1:33:491:33:52

in the aftermath of the attack.

1:33:521:33:54

This is a clip from

tonight's episode.

1:33:541:33:56

Two peas in a pod, you and me.

1:33:561:34:02

My mum, she always used to refer

to her fellas as my uncles.

1:34:021:34:05

Mmm.

1:34:051:34:06

Yeah, my Gran was just as bad,

apparently, in her day.

1:34:061:34:09

Mmm.

1:34:091:34:10

But...

1:34:101:34:13

Now they're just two

born-again prudes.

1:34:131:34:16

I think we should

have a toast, actually.

1:34:161:34:20

To all the uncles in the world.

1:34:201:34:22

To uncles.

1:34:221:34:30

Right.

I'm going to go for a wazz.

1:34:331:34:41

Let's talk now to one survivor

of male rape, Alexander Morgan.

1:35:191:35:22

He was raped twice.

1:35:221:35:23

And Kate Oates - Coronation Street's

producer - who joins

1:35:231:35:26

us from Manchester.

1:35:261:35:28

thank you for coming in. Did you

feel in the aftermath of the times

1:35:281:35:36

you were raped that you were able to

talk to people about it?

I think the

1:35:361:35:40

first emotion I felt was that I

froze. So I couldn't really come to

1:35:401:35:47

terms with what happened. The first

instance it happened, I was walking

1:35:471:35:52

home and the attack happened. When I

got back, the first thing I wanted

1:35:521:35:56

to do was clean myself up. I

couldn't bring myself to talk about

1:35:561:35:59

or even think about what happened. I

kept it inside like that for years.

1:35:591:36:06

A second attack happened when I was

20, I was at university, at a bar in

1:36:061:36:14

Soho and I was followed into a

toilet. That's when the other attack

1:36:141:36:17

happened. It took another three

months after that to even start

1:36:171:36:22

acknowledging what happened to me,

let alone start talking about it or

1:36:221:36:29

start to seek help.

What did that do

to you inside, your emotions and

1:36:291:36:33

your ability to function?

You become

very cold. Not very respected to

1:36:331:36:40

emotions and feelings, you just try

to move on as much as possible. Try

1:36:401:36:44

to literally forget what happened to

you. There is a lot of feeling of

1:36:441:36:50

shame, that you let somebody get the

better of you, that you let somebody

1:36:501:36:54

do that to you.

Is that linked to

being a man?

Yes, I think so. I

1:36:541:37:01

think there is a stigma in society

about how masculinity should become

1:37:011:37:06

a man should be powerful, he should

be able to provide and protect

1:37:061:37:10

himself. The fact you couldn't

protect yourself in that moment, and

1:37:101:37:15

you let somebody get the better of

you, let somebody do that to you, I

1:37:151:37:22

believe that attacks what society

thinks is masculinity. And being a

1:37:221:37:28

man. Therefore people don't like to

talk about it or seek help.

What

1:37:281:37:32

prompted you to tell people to seek

help?

After the second attack, about

1:37:321:37:38

three months later, I let it get in

the way of a relationship, and that

1:37:381:37:43

led me to slip into mental health

issues. I first sought help for the

1:37:431:37:48

mental health issue, I was diagnosed

with depression and through the

1:37:481:37:52

counselling that followed I was able

to start opening up about what had

1:37:521:37:55

happened and the other events in my

past. That's when I could start

1:37:551:38:01

talking to family members and things

like that. But then it was actually

1:38:011:38:05

when I told my mum that I started

being more proactive about it. My

1:38:051:38:13

mum came to me in the kitchen two

months after I told her in an

1:38:131:38:18

e-mail, because I couldn't tell her

face-to-face. I told my whole family

1:38:181:38:22

in an e-mail. It took awhile for her

to process that. She came up to me

1:38:221:38:26

in the kitchen and said an amazing

line-up stuck to me, and she said,

1:38:261:38:30

what happened to you was awful, but

go out there and stop it happening

1:38:301:38:36

to somebody else. That gave me the

right click to be a bit more

1:38:361:38:39

proactive about it. In my head I was

very much thinking, I thought I was

1:38:391:38:45

a victim, and then I became a

survivor. I wanted to go out there

1:38:451:38:49

and do something about it, which led

me to founding my charity.

Bringing

1:38:491:38:54

in Kate now, listening to

Alexander's situation, presumably

1:38:541:38:59

you have heard many stories like

this. Why was it important for

1:38:591:39:03

Coronation Street to tackle this

head on?

Listing to Alex's story

1:39:031:39:07

echoes a lot of what we heard

through the charity Survivors of

1:39:071:39:12

Manchester who we have been working

with. Alex, to hear your story, it

1:39:121:39:17

was so brave and brilliant for you

to come forward and turn your

1:39:171:39:20

experience around. We are trying to

encourage other survivors to do that

1:39:201:39:24

with this story. One in ten rapes on

-- in this country will be of a male

1:39:241:39:33

victim, and they don't talk about it

and we want them to change that.

1:39:331:39:37

This is for men all across the

country, who might have a view, as

1:39:371:39:41

Alexander talked about some of a

certain type of masculinity, and

1:39:411:39:44

encouraging them to open up.

It's

really key, the perception of

1:39:441:39:49

masculinity is really key to the

story and the experience. What we

1:39:491:39:53

have learned through research is

that men take in excess of 25 years

1:39:531:39:57

to talk about abuse that has

happened to them. Alex was talking

1:39:571:40:01

about three months there, which is

phenomenal. A lot of people take a

1:40:011:40:05

lot longer. On the Victoria

Derbyshire show, I have spoke to

1:40:051:40:10

Victoria before, and you have raised

the issue of historic abuse with

1:40:101:40:15

footballers, and charities then

experienced a huge surge in calls

1:40:151:40:19

from people wanting to disclose and

ask for help. We are trying to

1:40:191:40:23

condense that time, because there

are people available to listen and

1:40:231:40:28

give help. We need to dispel the

myths of masculinity, because what

1:40:281:40:31

is important is coming through

stronger.

How important is it for a

1:40:311:40:36

show like Coronation Street to take

on a male rape storyline in this

1:40:361:40:40

way?

It's really important to start

these conversations. Especially with

1:40:401:40:45

something so prominent as Coronation

Street. It was reading stories

1:40:451:40:51

online from other survivors that

made me want to start talking about

1:40:511:40:54

it. Fair enough, it was there for

therapy, but it was other people,

1:40:541:41:02

seeing other survivors come forward

and say, this happened. I thought,

1:41:021:41:06

that happened to me too. Then

conversations start and people start

1:41:061:41:11

addressing what happened to them,

and starts to seek help in their own

1:41:111:41:15

way. Whether that's reporting to the

police or just speaking to family

1:41:151:41:20

members and friends, or approaching

services like Survivors UK and

1:41:201:41:23

Manchester.

How much of

responsibility is this for

1:41:231:41:28

Coronation Street? You have to get

this right.

It's a responsibility we

1:41:281:41:34

take seriously, whatever storyline

we approach. We work with charities,

1:41:341:41:37

we work with people who have lived

the experience, whatever the

1:41:371:41:41

storyline is. It's important for us

to get it right. Survivors

1:41:411:41:45

Manchester have been across all the

scripts. Duncan Craig has been

1:41:451:41:49

fantastic with that. We have worked

with other charities like the

1:41:491:41:52

Samaritans. The responsibility is

heavy on our shoulders but that's

1:41:521:41:55

good because we checked everything

we and we are as accurate as we can

1:41:551:42:00

possibly be. That's crucial.

Alexander, if somebody is watching

1:42:001:42:04

today and this is bringing back an

horrific event in life, what would

1:42:041:42:08

you say to them about coming

forward? What's the best to make

1:42:081:42:12

that first step?

The best way to

make the first step is to realise

1:42:121:42:18

that, for example, going to the

police doesn't have to be the first

1:42:181:42:21

option. You can just start talking

about it to someone. That could be a

1:42:211:42:27

friend, family member. Or there are

plenty of services that are

1:42:271:42:32

anonymous, you can call helplines,

or even have a web chat. That's how

1:42:321:42:36

I started. As soon as you start the

conversation, you will start to feel

1:42:361:42:41

like a weight has been lifted off

your shoulder. Don't be put off by

1:42:411:42:46

thinking, they might not catch them,

or there might be evidence or you

1:42:461:42:49

might not be believed. There are

people out there who will believe

1:42:491:42:53

you. Services and the police are

very good at making sure there is

1:42:531:42:56

care out there.

We have had a

comment coming in, it's good to see

1:42:561:43:01

Coronation Street tackle a male rape

storyline. Soaps covering issues

1:43:011:43:04

like this is really powerful. I

remember when Hollyoaks did a

1:43:041:43:09

similar storyline years ago with

Luke and I never forgot it.

1:43:091:43:12

Hopefully men will feel more able to

speak out. Alexander and Kate, thank

1:43:121:43:16

you for speaking to us today. If you

have been affected by these issues

1:43:161:43:21

and want help or advice, please

visit the BBC website.

1:43:211:43:27

If you've been affected

by any of these issues

1:43:271:43:29

and want help or advice,

please go to BBC.CO.UK/ACTION LINE.

1:43:291:43:37

BBC click has been looking into

dimension technology. -- new

1:43:381:43:46

dementia technology.

1:43:461:43:52

Next this morning, a top

advertising firm has been

1:45:231:45:28

forced to apologise to its staff

after a sexist email

1:45:281:45:30

was sent by a male executive

to female colleagues

1:45:301:45:32

ranking their attractiveness

on International Women's Day.

1:45:321:45:34

In a farewell email to his fellow

employees, Paul Martin,

1:45:341:45:36

who has now left his role

as a creative strategist

1:45:361:45:42

at the AND Partnership agency,

sent a series of messages

1:45:421:45:45

which included a list of 'Top Five'

and 'Bottom Five' female colleagues.

1:45:451:45:53

In one offensive comment

about a female colleague,

1:45:561:45:58

he said: "If you were the last girl

on earth, I would use you as bait

1:45:581:46:02

to trap a wild animal."

1:46:021:46:04

In another comment, which had

the subject line "Bye Bye",

1:46:041:46:06

Martin listed a female colleague

and wrote, "I don't see

1:46:061:46:08

the attraction to be honest,

but everyone else rates you,

1:46:081:46:11

so you must be doing

something right".

1:46:111:46:12

He has since apologised

and said he is "incredibly

1:46:121:46:14

sorry" for the email,

admitting that he "totally

1:46:141:46:16

missed the mark".

1:46:161:46:20

So, was it just a tasteless joke

1:46:201:46:22

or is this part of a wider office

culture?

1:46:221:46:26

Let's speak now to Sarah Golding,

the chief executive of the agency

1:46:261:46:32

where Martin works.

1:46:321:46:43

We are also joined buying Nicola

1:46:431:46:49

Kemp. What happened here?

It was a

poorly judged and ill-conceived

1:46:501:46:58

attempt at a funny e-mail that

nothing is laughing

1:46:581:47:08

nothing is laughing with -- within

the agency. I have taken action

1:47:091:47:12

within the agency and stopped any

activity like this that objectifies

1:47:121:47:17

men or women, and as president of

our industry body I am calling on

1:47:171:47:23

all agencies to stop similar

activities that do objectify men or

1:47:231:47:28

women. Next week as I'm sure you

know is Ad Week Europe, the biggest

1:47:281:47:37

gathering of people who work in our

industry across Europe, and it's a

1:47:371:47:42

great opportunity to move forward

positively and bring about change.

1:47:421:47:47

People watching this will save there

must have been a culture within the

1:47:471:47:50

office that he felt it was safe to

send an e-mail. What's been watching

1:47:501:47:56

this, it would never even crossed

their mind to think about it, let

1:47:561:47:59

alone put it in an e-mail and hit

the send button.

My industry and my

1:47:591:48:05

agency does not condone sexism, it

is not a sexist culture. I hope I'm

1:48:051:48:13

proof of that, I'm chief executive

of one of the top advertising

1:48:131:48:16

agencies in this country and the

second female president of our

1:48:161:48:19

industry body.

So are you saying

e-mails like this have never been

1:48:191:48:25

sent like this before?

No, top five

e-mails have been sent but never

1:48:251:48:31

like this before. This has not been

a one-way exercise in female

1:48:311:48:37

objectification. Normally these top

five e-mails, I think in some

1:48:371:48:42

agencies it is top three, actually

celebrate friendships, bonds that

1:48:421:48:47

have been made.

Explain to people

who don't know what a top three or

1:48:471:48:54

top five e-mail is.

What has become

tradition within our industry across

1:48:541:48:59

many agencies is that when somebody

leaves, they send an e-mail to all

1:48:591:49:04

staff naming five people who have

really helped them. Friendships they

1:49:041:49:08

have made, people who got them out

of a hole, five great events that

1:49:081:49:14

have happened, memorable things or

people that they admire or people

1:49:141:49:18

they want to celebrate for having

helped them whilst they have been in

1:49:181:49:23

their job at a particular agency so

they are done with fun and

1:49:231:49:28

friendship and they are positive and

they celebrate these strong bonds.

1:49:281:49:34

So what went wrong?

It was juvenile,

ill-conceived and poor judgment but

1:49:341:49:40

it was a one-off. My industry is not

sexist, we don't condone sexism.

1:49:401:49:48

Only the year before last we issued

a diversity survey where we asked

1:49:481:49:52

member agencies to take a really

good look at ourselves so we could

1:49:521:49:56

set ourselves targets. We are not

there yet and our industry is

1:49:561:50:00

changing like many other industries,

but we have 30% of women in C suite

1:50:001:50:06

positions and we have set ourselves

a target to get 50% in C suite

1:50:061:50:11

positions by 2020.

What about the

women named in this e-mail? What we

1:50:111:50:19

read out was very tame, many things

in there were so deeply offensive we

1:50:191:50:24

couldn't contemplate putting it on

television, let alone before the

1:50:241:50:28

watershed. Are these women offended,

have they been offered support?

I

1:50:281:50:33

have been talking to one of the

women mentioned in this e-mail so I

1:50:331:50:37

know how they are feeling. I was

named in the e-mail, I certainly

1:50:371:50:42

wasn't asked to be named in the

e-mail so myself and other female

1:50:421:50:47

colleagues, I have a female MD and

several heads of department who are

1:50:471:50:52

females, I have certainly apologised

to these women and said I know how

1:50:521:50:56

you feel, it is awful, upsetting and

offensive.

Did you feel embarrassed?

1:50:561:51:04

Yes, I felt incredibly embarrassed

so I made sure, well, I am always

1:51:041:51:09

there for these women. I'm doing my

best to champion women. I chair the

1:51:091:51:14

women of tomorrow in our industry, I

sit on the Stereotype Alliance, the

1:51:141:51:20

UN initiative, I chair and champion

all of the diversity issues that the

1:51:201:51:32

IPA agenda sets.

I know Paul Martin

has left, clearly this was leaving

1:51:321:51:37

e-mail, are you taking any further

against him?

I also think now we

1:51:371:51:43

need to look at what's happening in

the tabloids. This is a young guy,

1:51:431:51:48

he wasn't the head of an advertising

agency, he's in his 20s, he has made

1:51:481:51:52

a big mistake and now he is being

pilloried across social media and

1:51:521:51:59

all of the tabloids.

He should have

thought about that before he sent

1:51:591:52:03

the e-mail.

You should but he's a

human being and he made a mistake.

I

1:52:031:52:08

want to bring in Nicola camp now. Do

you think this was a one-off or that

1:52:081:52:17

there is a general sexist office

culture that exists in 2018?

This

1:52:171:52:22

wasn't a one-off, that is clear, and

I don't think this is about one

1:52:221:52:27

agency or on individual. There's big

issues across not just the

1:52:271:52:30

advertising industry but lots of

other industries as well about the

1:52:301:52:35

way in which women are excluded and

belittled and talked about in this

1:52:351:52:41

way. These top five e-mails are

symptomatic of a culture in which

1:52:411:52:46

women have been valued by what they

looked like and not what they can

1:52:461:52:50

do. That is a big issue and

unfortunately this one e-mail has

1:52:501:52:54

become a lightning rod for a lot of

different issues which are very

1:52:541:53:00

culturally sensitive.

There is a

point, as I made to Sarah, that

1:53:001:53:05

there are many people watching this

that would never even contemplate

1:53:051:53:09

sending an e-mail like that, let

alone putting it down and hitting

1:53:091:53:14

the send button so this is

reflective of a culture that you

1:53:141:53:17

think allows this to happen in

advertising?

I think the fact is

1:53:171:53:23

that for a number of years these

e-mails have been sent. This is a

1:53:231:53:29

very extreme example of that type of

e-mail. A lot of the e-mails that

1:53:291:53:32

have been sent have been more

light-hearted in their tone but the

1:53:321:53:36

fact is a lot of them have focused

on women and since we published this

1:53:361:53:42

story in Campaign, a lot of those

women have got in touch. After this

1:53:421:53:49

e-mail was released, and started

going viral on Twitter, and open

1:53:491:53:52

source Google document was created

by women in advertising which named

1:53:521:53:58

three other agencies in which these

e-mails have taken place. So I think

1:53:581:54:04

it is much bigger than one single

e-mail or one single person.

Thank

1:54:041:54:10

you for joining us, Nicola and

Sarah.

1:54:101:54:17

We spoke earlier to a remarkable

woman, who campaigned for new laws

1:54:171:54:25

after the father of her unborn son

killed him by clicking on her

1:54:251:54:31

stomach. Let's hear what she had to

say.

My neighbour heard the

1:54:311:54:36

screaming, she opened the window and

said, what are you doing? Another of

1:54:361:54:41

my neighbours was in the car and

stopped in the middle-of-the-road

1:54:411:54:45

because she saw two guy essentially

on top of me and as my neighbour

1:54:451:54:50

screamed out the window they ran off

and I think that's what initially

1:54:501:54:54

scared them off but if it wasn't for

that, God only knows how long they

1:54:541:54:59

would have continued attacking me.

After some time I started to realise

1:54:591:55:04

my baby hasn't moved so my instinct

started to tell me something was

1:55:041:55:09

wrong because he hadn't been moving

for quite a while.

So you got to

1:55:091:55:14

hospital and at what point did you

realise that Joel had died?

It was

1:55:141:55:23

once they confirmed it to me. I had

a feeling, I really kind of knew but

1:55:231:55:29

I needed them to confirm it. I had a

Caesarean section the following

1:55:291:55:33

evening because I couldn't give

birth naturally, it just wasn't

1:55:331:55:37

happening. And then after that I

realised or I was told that my

1:55:371:55:45

fingers have broken so I also had to

have surgery the same week, a few

1:55:451:55:51

days afterwards, I had to have

surgery on my fingers.

Obviously the

1:55:511:55:55

physical injuries heal in time after

the operations but how have you been

1:55:551:56:00

able to process what happened to

you, that the father of your unborn

1:56:001:56:05

child was the person to take him

away from you?

It's taken a long

1:56:051:56:09

time to be fair. Like I say, maybe

two and a half years to get to a

1:56:091:56:16

place where I've accepted what's

happened. I will never understand, I

1:56:161:56:20

will never know why he did it and

I've accepted that but for me my

1:56:201:56:26

main focus was just to make sure

that I was in a good place, you

1:56:261:56:33

know, I wasn't going to let this

define me.

And was one of the things

1:56:331:56:38

that helps you move on the fact that

you went to court and you saw

1:56:381:56:43

justice being served?

Yes, that was

one of the main things but also just

1:56:431:56:47

talking to my family and friends, I

tried to get their outlook on it and

1:56:471:56:53

their support as well helped me get

to the place where I am today.

Were

1:56:531:56:57

you happy with the sentence?

Not at

first, I will be honest, not at

1:56:571:57:04

first.

A minimum of 16 years.

I was

lucky, there are other cases where

1:57:041:57:11

you don't even have a conviction,

let alone a conviction and a life

1:57:111:57:17

sentence being passed to the

perpetrator.

And that's because this

1:57:171:57:20

is all part of your campaign now to

look at this review of the law

1:57:201:57:25

because I guess in your case it was

pretty simple for the police to

1:57:251:57:28

investigate. You were heavily

pregnant, this was the father of

1:57:281:57:32

your child and he targeted

specifically your stomach so in many

1:57:321:57:37

ways it was easy to prosecute under

that law.

Exactly, because according

1:57:371:57:42

to the law it is a more about if the

police can prove the intent. If they

1:57:421:57:49

can prove there was an intention to

harm, destroy or kill a baby, that

1:57:491:57:55

is when it is a lot easier for them

to prosecute the perpetrator for the

1:57:551:57:59

law but if it was a matter of

recklessness, it is a lot harder to

1:57:591:58:04

sort of proof that because they may

not have had the intention to harm

1:58:041:58:09

the baby's life but as a result

their recklessness has essentially

1:58:091:58:16

ended a baby's life.

1:58:161:58:24

ended a baby's life.

Malorie Bantala

sharing her story.

1:58:241:58:27

BBC Newsroom

live is coming up next.

1:58:271:58:29

Chloe hears from Malorie Bantala who was eight months pregnant when her ex-boyfriend attacked her, killing her baby.

One of the nation's favourite soaps - Coronation Street - is to screen a harrowing male rape storyline.

And why Topman has withdrawn a shirt after criticism it could be seen as referring to the Hillsborough disaster.