19/03/2014 Y Sgwrs

Did the contents of the Chancellor's red box impress people?

The economy is growing

and unemployment is down but will your pockets get any fuller?

We're talking about Mr Osborne's medicine tonight on Y Sgwrs.

The Chancellor hadn't had time to cross the road for a cup of tea

before the criticising started on the economy's direction.

It's a Budget for those who create, do and who save.

With the help of the British people we're turning our country around.

We're building a resilient economy.

This is a Budget for the makers, the doers and the savers

and I commend it to the House.

We heard details of the Budget on Newyddion 9,

so we'll have responses from the Chancellor's political

supporters and opponents now.

Comfortably on the fence in his anorak is Vaughan Roderick.

In Westminster is the Plaid Cymru MP, Hywel Williams.

Joining us from our Wrexham studio is the Conservative, Aled Davies.

Here in the studio are the Assembly Members, Keith Davies from Labour

and the Liberal Democrat, Aled Roberts. Welcome to you all.

You've all watched the Budget.

Vaughan, what's here for Wales specifically?

Well, there is some extra money for Wales.

That comes from the Barnett Formula.

There was a promise about the Wales bill

and the ability to raise taxes, that will

allow the Welsh Government to move on with improvements to the M4.

Things that affect the rest of Britain with, for example,

pensions, will affect people here in Wales too.

Not every political and economic decision

has to be seen through the Assembly mirror.

The UK Government governs over a significant amount of Welsh

people's lives.

Aled Roberts, you're part of the coalition.

What influence has the Liberal Democrats had on this Budget?

I think we're still facing a difficult financial time

but the threshold on income tax is something we've been fighting

over and we're happy....

George Osborne has taken the credit for that.

If you look back, we promised in our manifesto that we'd create

a threshold of £10,000 and we've beaten that.

David Cameron at the time said it was unsustainable.

-I think we won the battle.

-Aled Davies, was it the Lib Dems' idea?

It wasn't your idea, was it?

Well, this is part of...

The Conservatives want to see people paying less tax.

This is one way of helping people who are on lower wages to

cope with the situation they find themselves in.

Can I say something about this threshold business.

It is to be welcomed for people on lower wages,

but it isn't the most effective way of helping them, is it?

It would be much better to cut or increase

the National Insurance allowance.

I saw the figures, because everybody benefits from that increase,

something like 85% of the tax cut will go into

the pockets of those who earn more than £26,000 a year.

It doesn't help anyone who earns less than the threshold.

There are other more effective ways of helping people.

There are thousands of people in Wales who don't have to pay

income tax at all.

Those on higher wages can also benefit

and about a million people in Wales

benefit from this Budget

and I think they'll welcome it.

Keith Davies, the economy is growing but faster than expected.

All the predictions have been raised today.

So you have to acknowledge that this plan is working?

No, I don't think so at all.

Since the coalition have been running the show in London,

taxes have been raised 24 times.

This is the first time they're cutting it.

Also, families are something like £1,500 a year worse off than

before the coalition came to power.

What we're looking for, and it hasn't happened today,

what we hoped would happen, that we'd receive extra money

to create jobs, build houses and so on. That isn't there.

Hywel Williams, what's Plaid Cymru's response to this Budget.

We've heard you complain, not personally but as a party,

you're obviously not happy. What would you do differently?

You've put your finger on it, Bethan,

when it comes to National Insurance contributions.

Mrs Thatcher said, a rising tide lifts all ships.

By raising the tax allowance,

everyone will benefit, including myself in London.

Not much of the money will go to those on genuinely low wages.

What we have in all honesty, is at least two economies.

London and the South-East, which does best out of this,

and the rest of the UK, who won't get much benefit.

That is a fair point. There are two different economies.

London is a different world compared to parts of Wales, isn't it?

Yes. When you take the limit up to £10,500

and you compare that with what people are paid in Mid Wales,

for example, an average salary in Powys is around £22,000.

So they get half of their salaries without tax.

So it helps people on lower incomes more than anyone else.

But this is a Budget for the rich.

Who has a spare £15,000 to put in an ISA in Wales?

It is up to £15,000.

Someone may have been left money by their parents, for example,

and want somewhere to save money for the future.

It is a chance for them to put the money somewhere

where they will get a better interest rate than anywhere else.

They are going after the core Conservative vote here, aren't they?

Certainly, with those savings.

20 million people in Britain have an ISA,

but most of them haven't even gone up to the maximum annually.

There are questions regarding some of these changes.

Especially the question regarding annual payments.

Labour say they want to see details.

What strikes me about that

is the danger that people take this pot of money

if they realise they will need care in the long-term.

They exhaust their income and their pension

and therefore the state will have to pay

to look after them in nursing homes.

There are concerns there, aren't there?

There will be a full review of care costs in London.

And this is something we have been discussing this week.

There is a problem in Wales.

But there has been pressure.

And the pension industry is the same as it was 100 years ago.

When you see how people get so little money at the moment,

you can understand why the system needs to change.

But there are questions which have not been answered so far

regarding the affect that will have

on other areas of government expenditure.

It was a Labour idea in the first place.

Hywel Williams, do you want to come in?

This is a good reason for people to be cautious with their finances,

especially with people living longer.

But there is another point.

You are turning savings into earnings here.

You take your money out and treat it as you would treat any other income.

Could Aled tell me, will this be taxed?

Will Mr Osborne get 25% of that money?

We have two Aleds here. Which one would you like?

-Either one.

-Sorry? Let's start with the Conservative.

-Will it be taxed?

-Will it be taxed?

I'm sorry, there is a lot of noise on the line

and I can't hear everything.

But if you do take a large sum of money out, it will be taxed.

-That is...

-More money for Mr Osborne.

-Well, yes.

-There you go.

That is something which will stop people

taking too much money out at the same time.

If they take out a little at a time, it will help them.

Thanks for the time being.

We've heard a lot about VAT, GDP and inflation today.

How will the Chancellor's decisions affect families,

young people and small businesses across the country?

Janet Ebenezer reports.

This is a Budget for building a strong economy.

That is what the Chancellor George Osborne said

as he announced more financial support for families,

businesses and young people looking for work.

But let's hear the views of three people

to see if they are happy with the 2014 Budget.

Let's discuss it over a cuppa.

As somebody who runs a small business and employs five people,

there was good news for us.

We are the kind of people the Chancellor likes to be seen helping.

There was good news that corporation tax has come down.

And the news that you have to earn £2,000

before paying National Insurance.

There is a lot of help.

A lot of fuss has been made about the help towards childcare costs.

That was the big announcement yesterday.

I'm not sure how many more people this will help.

There are some elements that we've asked for that we have been given.

The fact that the Chancellor is carrying on investing

in small businesses is to be welcomed.

You can also employ new people.

That's also very positive.

What's important at the moment

is that we continue on the same road we are already on.

Although it's nice to hear that unemployment is down across the UK,

I think there is a lot more to do.

We need more money in pensions,

more money in education

and training in order to get people into work.

I think there is a lot more to do.

I found it difficult to see anything

that was specifically for young people and students.

That is how it will be for another year.

George Osborne's fifth Budget has been announced

and although he says things are improving for families

and businesses, money is still tight,

whatever shape it will be.

It's nice to have a treat now and again.

Sorry, Bethan and Vaughan, there was only one slice left.

And she ate it all, as well.

The Chancellor was hardly Father Christmas today,

but he wasn't Scrooge either.

Was he in the middle somewhere?

George Osborne's Budgets are always very political.

But the truth is, he didn't have a lot of freedom to operate in.

When you are talking about pensions,

you are talking about something coming down the road.

It's not a significant thing to spend on now.

There will be another Budget before the next general election.

I listened carefully to Ed Miliband.

There was not much response from him about the Budget.

The reason for that, I think,

is that I didn't feel there was anything in this Budget

that would really change the minds of the voters.

Or change the game.

There was no game-changer at all.

All these things pleased the Conservatives,

and may be beneficial to them in the European elections, for example,

but I don't think there was anything which changed the political climate.

It's difficult for the opposition parties to respond immediately.

It's a speech which has been prepared, like Ed Miliband's today.

It's very difficult to respond to the Budget.

That's true. But if there was something in that Budget

that Ed Miliband was not expecting

and which they thought was dangerous for Labour,

there would have been a lot of notes being passed to Ed Miliband.

It's obvious that didn't happen.

What is there to help people now with living costs?

That was the criticism by Ed Balls.

This is all to come. What is there for today, Aled Roberts?

We have to create a situation where the economy is growing

and that jobs are created

and that we are in a situation where wages can go up.

But we need to show that the coalition policies are working.

A cap on benefits.

A cap on welfare.

£191 billion savings.

-Would you keep that, as a party?

-Yes.

The problem I think is the living costs for working people.

But on benefits, George Osborne said, you let everything go.

Ed Miliband says we will keep an extra sum

and we would not do much more than that.

But in regards to the bedroom tax?

We would change that.

That bedroom tax is terrible.

Would it be difficult to stick to the cap, then?

Yes, but you have to work on that.

We look at the people who suffer the most.

Those are the people who live in these houses.

I can't remember the exact figure, but I read something recently

about people who were living in a house with two bedrooms,

but the woman was blind.

And she would have to move

and spend money on a new house.

Aled Davies, George Osborne has made it clear today

that there are further cuts to come.

And we have some fragile people in our communities

who are already suffering.

It's very difficult for people across the country.

Labour took 13 years to dig this hole.

The coalition has been there for four years

trying to get out of it.

There are some difficult decisions still to make.

Things like the bedroom tax

and putting a cap on the welfare payment,

those are the right things to do.

Some families in Montgomeryshire

receive around £36,000 every year in benefits.

Somebody working would have to earn around £60,000 to get that pay.

That's not fair.

Some people are working hard

and they should be rewarded for working so hard.

Hywel Williams, good news for the economy in Wales.

Unemployment is going down quicker here than in many parts of Britain.

Who is responsible for that? Westminster or Cardiff Bay?

A lot of those jobs are part-time jobs with low wages.

Let me talk about this cap first.

Do you acknowledge that is good news on unemployment?

Fewer people are unemployed. Of course that is good news.

But I would want them to be paid properly for the work they do.

Going back to what Aled said about the cap,

there should not be a mix between this cap

and the cap on the whole expenditure.

Keith should not worry about housing benefit either.

Housing benefit does not come in under this cap.

The problem with the cap

is that if you put a cap on benefits,

you can add other things later on.

If you introduce further changes,

you could end up having a cash limit on something which could be larger.

Who is going to suffer? I don't know.

But I'd guess those people who claim benefits will suffer in the end.

To bring this discussion to a close, Vaughan,

two years ago, we were talking about a shambles. It's not quite as bad.

But what will the newspapers make of it tomorrow?

They will concentrate on the surprises.

The changes to pensions and savings.

Last time, it was a few days

before people started noticing tax on caravans and so on.

I think they will have been very careful this time

-to make sure there is nothing like that in it, but who knows?

-Who knows? We'll see.

Let's talk now about a story that is developing this evening.

Earlier on Newyddion 9,

we discussed the fact that Ann Clwyd had called for the resignation

of the chair and chief executive

of Cardiff and Vale University Health Board.

It's the latest chapter in the dispute between the First Minister

and the Labour MP for the Cynon valley.

Tell us the background, please, Vaughan.

It started with the death of Ann Clwyd's husband.

And the complaints about the care the late Owen Roberts received

at the Heath Hospital in Cardiff.

David Cameron asked Ann Clwyd

to review the complaints system in the NHS in England.

According to Ann Clwyd, a high percentage of the complaints

she received from the public came from Wales.

So she has been calling on the Welsh Government to take action.

It's obvious the Welsh Government feels very frustrated about that

because it insists Ann Clwyd has not presented any evidence

to prove her accusations about the state of the service in Wales.

You can sense Carwyn Jones' frustration

after First Minister's Questions yesterday.

-Ann Clwyd has produced no evidence and no facts.

-She has!

I have asked her, the Minister of Health has asked her.

She's produced nothing but anonymous comments.

We don't know where they're from, we don't know whether are correct.

I'm afraid we've asked her on more than one occasion

to produce the evidence to back up her claims.

I've done it, the Minister of Health has done it.

I've done it to her in person and in writing. She has not done it.

She has responded angrily to that, hasn't she?

We don't know if the timing of this is a coincidence

as a result of Carwyn Jones' comments,

but in a statement the press today,

she has called for the resignation of the chief executive

and the chair of the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board.

Because, she says, they have breached her privacy

by releasing part of the report

about the circumstances of her husband's death,

following requests made under the Freedom of Information Act.

Keith Davies, let's concentrate on this row

between Ann Clwyd and the First Minister.

It's not a nice thing for your party to see this played out in public.

No. But there are two different things.

The information about what happened to her husband in hospital.

I can see why she is worried about that.

But then there's information about the evidence she has

about what is happening in Wales and in England.

And I think we should be given that.

If she is ready to go to the media and give them the information,

I think we, as an Assembly, should look at that.

Because if things are wrong in the NHS, we should know about them.

You say there are two aspects to this.

The First Minister has made it personal

by talking about her husband. Was that a mistake by him?

It was not very clear in the Assembly yesterday.

He was talking yesterday about getting evidence.

Personally, I thought he wanted evidence

about the situation in Wales and England, not evidence about her husband.

I can see why she was worried about her husband.

That is a personal matter.

What right does somebody have to give evidence

to somebody else about her husband? I don't understand it.

What do you make of this row?

Two things came up in the chamber yesterday.

Only time will tell about Ann Clwyd's personal response.

If information was released, that's a mistake by the health board.

Is she right to call for resignations?

We need to hear the facts about what exactly has happened.

Questions will have to be raised about the timing.

There was a statement by the First Minister yesterday.

We understand that the information was released yesterday morning.

I hope no political pressure has been placed on the health board

to release any information,

but there will be an investigation by the commissioner

and we will have to wait and see.

I think the Welsh Government has to admit that there are cases now

which raise questions about our health service.

But we have to be careful that we don't criticise a good service.

Hywel Williams, your response, please.

Because she may be raising complaints generally

about the health system in Wales

and many people might agree with her.

I'm sure a lot of people do. I have talked to her about this.

She was stunned with the number of complaints

she received from Wales and England.

I think she was right to publish a report on the NHS in England.

There is confusion here, as well,

because of this gap between Westminster and Cardiff Bay.

Who is responsible for health?

The Assembly should be doing that work.

A quick word from Aled Davies in Wrexham.

What do you make of this row?

I don't know the latest facts,

but Carwyn Jones' attitude towards Ann Clwyd is disgraceful.

It's hard to believe what I heard yesterday.

It's not only Ann Clwyd saying these things.

The statistics and so on say the same story,

that some hospitals in Wales aren't working well enough.

Sorry to interrupt, but our time is up.

Thank you for your company tonight.

Thanks to our guests, and to you at home for your company.

We will be back at the same time next week.

From all of us here, good night.