26/03/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back.

Should our broadcasters be ambassadors for the Welsh language?

And Nick and Nige have been arguing over Europe tonight,

but what affect do the debates between the party leaders have?

There's plenty to discuss tonight on Y Sgwrs.

Good evening.

We'll be looking at the Welsh language and the media tonight.

And after the first debate on Europe between the leader

of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg, and UKIP leader, Nigel Farage,

our political correspondent will have his say on the outcome.

People have a choice. Either a politician or drama.

But first, let's welcome our guests.

Vaughan is here as usual, and he's joined

by the Welsh Language Commissioner Meri Huws, the Tory MP Suzy Davies

and joining us from our London studio,

the senior TV producer and novelist Sioned Wiliam.

Welcome to you all.

Our broadcasters should be ambassadors for the Welsh

language, according to one Plaid Cymru Assembly Member.

One of the Assembly's committees will hear from broadcasting chiefs

tomorrow on the future of the media in Wales.

But what role does Welsh have to play?

Janet Ebenezer has been looking at the relationship

between the broadcasters and the language.

Welcome to Carmarthen, and the new home of S4C.

In three years' time, on the site of the University of Wales Trinity St David,

this will be the channel's new headquarters.

The broadcaster says one of the main advantages of moving is to promote

the Welsh language locally.

This is the new voice in the afternoon on Welsh radio, Tommo,

and the hope is to attract new listeners to the station.

But the use of English-language music on the programme

has also been a topic of discussion.

The recent series, 'Y Gwyll' and 'Hinterland'

was a joint project between S4C and the BBC.

The version shown on BBC 1 was notable

for its use of Welsh and English side-by-side.

But do the people of Carmarthen think the Welsh language

is used effectively in he media?

For those who want a language to survive, they will speak Welsh.

But those who are raised these days, I think they speak English.

Do you think more Welsh language programmes would make a difference?

I don't think so.

I don't think money is the answer for everything.

It is about promoting interest.

It's more important to spend money producing good programmes,

rather than concentrating on programmes just through the medium of Welsh,

because only a limited number of people in Wales speak Welsh.

Last week, the presenter Noel Edmonds

criticised public spending on Welsh language programmes.

It has always been a controversial week the BBC.

They apologised after Ofcom received over 25 complaints

about the 'Morning Call' programme,

which asked people whether the Welsh language irritated them.

And in the Assembly yesterday,

the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, criticised London papers.

I have been troubled during the last few days

by some of the articles written in London newspapers

which seem to suggest that the Welsh language is Wales' problem.

The Assembly Member for Anglesey

has had a lot of experience in the media.

I think our broadcasters should be ambassadors for the Welsh language.

I am a strong believer in role models for people.

Nothing will encourage a young boy or girl to speak Welsh more

than seeing their heroes in sport, for example, speaking Welsh.

In that sense, the BBC and S4C should make it clear

that they not only produce Welsh language programmes,

but that they want more people to watch those programmes

as a way promoting the Welsh language.

The BBC says it is confident that it provides comprehensive services

which benefit the language and which give people daily access

to entertaining and high quality content.

And S4C also says the channel has a responsibility

to promote Welsh in every part of the country.

We have do produce programmes that people want to watch,

but the language has got to be appropriate for the target audience.

We are like every other nation.

We have different communities with different interests.

We get our information from different places.

Some people enjoy news, others enjoy entertainment.

It's very important that the style of programming

is suitable for the audience the programme is targeting.

But I suppose the big question is,

do broadcasters have a duty to protect the Welsh language?

That might be a fair question

for our panellists in the studio tonight.

Janet Ebenezer enjoying a piece of cake.

Meri Huws, what about that point by Rhun ap Iorwerth?

Should broadcasters be ambassadors for the Welsh language?

I think what Rhun said reflects something

that has been true since 1982.

The broadcasters involved with S4C have been ambassadors

for the Welsh language, whether they are aware of that or not.

They have secured a status for the Welsh language

and it has become more popular.

I was chair of the Welsh Language Society in 1982

when the channel was established

and I remember Owen Edwards saying it was an historic day.

Maybe we didn't realise how historic at the time.

So they have been ambassadors.

Do they have a moral responsibility to be ambassadors?

I am not sure I would go that far. But they have been.

Do you think they have a moral responsibility? You're not going that far.

But should BBC Wales and S4C have a moral responsibility?

I would say it's S4C and the BBC's responsibility to produce programmes

which are interesting, that attract audiences

and create debate in Wales in our own language.

-Are they succeeding?

-They have, over the years.

It is a challenge, as they have acknowledged themselves.

The broadcasting world has changed so much.

There are so many forms of media and there is so much competition these days.

If we go back to 1982, I remember that period as well,

and there were people who said the Welsh language would lose out.

There will be better provision for Welsh speaking people,

but English-speaking viewers will see less Welsh being spoken.

What I find interesting is that we have started to see

the two languages mixing more on the main channels.

-I was watching 'Hill Farm' recently on BBC Wales.

-'Hinterland' as well.

'Y Gwyll', 'Hinterland' as well.

I think we need to make sure that the Welsh language

can be heard on channels which are primarily English-language channels.

Otherwise, there is a danger that people will think,

like that woman in Carmarthen, almost nobody speaks Welsh, despite the fact she lives in Carmarthen.

Sioned, as a television producer, how does the idea

of moral responsibility for the language sit with you?

I agree completely with it.

It is language and culture which allows us

to develop a meaningful relationship with the world around us.

Television is a big part of creating a context for a language.

A national channel does have a responsibility to be

part of that debate and that process of creating awareness.

Every channel in the world does it for its own nation.

S4C should do it for Wales.

But you still need a variety.

We need entertainment programmes and highbrow programmes,

but there's no reason why the channel can't achieve those things.

It does achieve it on a very small budget, to be honest.

Suzy Davies, this idea of the nature of the language,

in order to attract viewers, do we need to simplify the language?

Or is there a danger of oversimplifying things?

It's possible to oversimplify,

but with every channel, if you look at the English channels

for example, you are going to hear various dialects

and different standards of the English language.

If you watch Newsnight, the standard will be very high,

but in soap operas, people will speak like they do every day.

I'm not too worried about that myself.

As someone who has learned Welsh,

it is important to hear Welsh spoken naturally on S4C

and I agree with the point on the English-language channels.

Meri Huws, Tommo is an example of the vibrant language.

Do you enjoy Tommo on Radio Cymru?

-I don't get to listen to the radio at work.

-You are the boss!

But I know that people in Carmarthenshire

are very happy that he's on Radio Cymru.

-Do you support...

-It's important that we hear different accents.

As Vaughan said, we also need to hear it on the other channels.

The challenge now is to hear Welsh as part of that service.

That is happening and it is part of the BBC's strategy.

It is happening.

The Tommo question is interesting.

I have roots in the Cwmgors and Amman Valley area

and there has been an inferiority issue in that part of Wales

with regard to their Welsh.

If you try to produce a film in Ammanford,

you always get people who say, "My Welsh isn't good enough."

You don't get that in Blaenau Ffestiniog,

Caernarfon or Ceredigion.

Hearing that everyday Welsh on the television and radio

is very important.

-Sioned Wiliam?

-With the idea of hearing Welsh on other channels,

Andrew Collins wrote in The Guardian recently

that the flow of the language is what charmed him

and he didn't want a language which was a compromise.

It doesn't have to be watered down to go on other channels.

We need to have confidence and the more Welsh our programmes are,

like the programmes we see from Norway and Scandinavia and so on,

I think that's another way of creating that awareness

over Offa's Dyke, if you like.

You've worked with some stars - Jonathan Ross and Harry Hill,

-I don't know whether you have worked with Noel Edmonds.

-No.

What do you make of his attitude?

There's no substance to his argument.

I don't know what planet Noel lives on,

but he doesn't live on the same planet as me.

I don't think you should even consider that argument.

People have been laughing at him in England

for his wider plans for the BBC in general.

I don't think we should worry about what Noel says.

But there's a lot of this in the right-wing papers,

in The Sun, The Mail, at the moment.

The articles have been bashing the language.

It's like going back to the '70s, to be honest.

There are negative attitudes, but if we have the confidence

in our own culture and language, that is the best way to hit back.

We shouldn't compromise.

By being Welsh, we can make a contribution to the world.

By being positive in your identity, you can have this relationship,

you can tell a story in a complex way

which speaks to a broader spectrum of people.

Suzy Davies on the papers.

I think that's just ignorance

because a lot of people who work for the London papers,

they probably haven't looked at Wales for many years.

How do they know how things have changed?

The reason they are looking at the Welsh language

is because of the dispute over the health service in Wales.

David Cameron has been raising that in the House of Commons.

There have been some strong messages going from the Welsh Conservatives

to the Tories in Westminster

saying it's fine to attack Carwyn Jones' record

but to be careful because there's a danger he could turn people

against the Welsh Conservatives if it looks as if he's attacking Wales

rather than Carwyn Jones' government.

We're not responsible for what The Daily Mail say.

But it's a weekly target at PMQs.

Meri Huws, Carwyn Jones responded yesterday

and said he has been angered by these articles.

Shouldn't you be doing more and standing up for the language?

I think Sioned touched on something very important.

That's not the battle.

Those stories are based on ignorance

and things which existed during the '70s.

We need to be confident in Wales and step forward into the future,

rather than seeing problems everywhere.

That's pure ignorance. We shouldn't give it any status.

You would give the likes of Jeremy Clarkson a lot of joy

by overreacting.

He loves the idea that Welsh people get angry. Ignore these people.

They're idiots, on the whole, and not just about Wales.

What about broadcasting in Wales?

At the moment, it hasn't been devolved yet.

Should it be?

That's a difficult question.

I think we should have control over broadcasting in Wales,

but there is a direct question over funding.

Would it receive less money if it was devolved?

There's a danger of that because there are restrictions in Wales.

So it's handy that we get more money from London?

I think we need to safeguard a channel which reflects our needs

so we have got to have financial stability.

I think we could control the services from here

but there are fundamental questions over the budget.

So the status quo?

We need answers regarding budgets before making a decision.

Is it on the agenda, Vaughan?

Well, the reason people opposed the devolution of S4C

was because S4C bosses thought their budget was protected

due to the Parliamentary measure which established the channel.

When this government was elected, almost overnight,

that legislation was changed and S4C lost a lot of money.

I don't think that funding argument is as strong as it used to be

when the Assembly was established back in 1999.

Thank you. So, who won? Nick or Nige?

The leaders of UKIP and the Lib Dems have taken part

in the first of their debates before the European election.

Before we discuss whether Nige agreed with Nick

and to what degree these debates can influence elections,

a quick visit to the boxing ring.

During the 1960s, in the United States,

Nixon on one side, Kennedy on the other side.

Who won?

Kennedy was the President,

but in the debate on the radio, it was Nixon.

On television, it was Kennedy.

But what about Britain?

Well, Harold Wilson challenged Sir Alex Douglas Hume in 1964.

He asked for a debate.

But Sir Alex refused because he didn't want to take part

in a programme he said was like Top Of The Pops.

People can choose between politics and drama.

And so it was until the last General Election.

Debates between Brown, Cameron and Clegg were broadcast on television.

And what happened? Well, the young man Clegg came out on top.

Will there be another debate?

That is the question.

We'll come to that question in a moment.

I watched it tonight and they didn't sweat like Nixon, Vaughan.

Did either man win?

Well, the way I saw it,

I felt that if you agree with Nick Clegg, you thought he won,

and if you agree with Nigel Farage, you would think he won.

Neither of them made any significant mistakes

or introduced any new viewpoints.

What's important is that they both won, in one sense,

because Farage has been promoted to stand alongside

the Deputy Prime Minister, and he has been forced

into a debate where the Lib Dems have looked pretty ineffective.

Suzy, why is David Cameron afraid of debate with Alex Salmond

on independence for Scotland?

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Tonight, we saw one person who wants to stay in Europe

and another who wants to leave.

I don't think the Prime Minister needs to get involved.

I was asking about Alex Salmond and Scotland.

I was coming to that.

Oh, sorry. Yes.

I don't see the point in having

this political beauty contest, in a sense.

I don't know whether now is the time for that debate.

Something else could happen before the summer, who knows?

When we are discussing Europe,

there's no point having a debate on something completely different.

But the future of Scotland is very important to the future of the UK.

Why won't David Cameron debate with Alex Salmond?

I don't see the point.

They have both made their points

in the press and the media already.

I'm not sure whether a debate would benefit anyone.

I don't like what happened tonight so I won't push David Cameron.

-Meri Huws?

-I disagree.

That's fine.

I think David Cameron has expressed his opinion in the press,

and I think he should appear on television to defend that view.

He's said the people of Scotland should vote No

so he should be open to this kind of discussion.

I think these debates are acceptable for politicians.

In the old days, we relied on the newspapers to tell us

what politician said.

These days, why shouldn't they appear in the media?

With the point about Scottish independence,

it leaves the other three nations

behind.

If we're talking about some skit like this,

-Carwyn Jones could also take part.

-Yeah.

-Does it make good television, Sioned?

-It's very superficial.

Clegg did well four years ago

and now we have a government we didn't vote for

destroying the welfare state at the moment.

I don't think what happened in that election,

with those television debates, was a good thing at all.

It gave us a misleading impression of the people we were voting for.

I don't think it can be a debate with any depth.

I don't want a television presenter as a politician,

I want someone with principles who believes in what they say.

It's an important question.

Did those debates during the last General Election

have any influence at all?

On the night of the election, we had the exit poll,

which said the Lib Dems were not going to win

a single additional seat.

We all thought it was wrong but it was spot-on.

The debate caused a bounce during the campaign...

But Clegg-mania didn't last.

He turned his back on all his policies, how could it last?

It was a gimmick - looking to the camera.

He didn't do that tonight.

Something as superficial as looking into the camera made a difference.

I'm not enough of a fool to think it's not scripted

but I think politicians have a responsibility

to interact with the public.

How else are future politicians going to get their messages across?

People don't read newspapers in the way they used to.

The old rallies don't happen in the same way.

What do we rely on?

Social networking sites, is that the future? Blogging, Twitter?

I think blogging has had its day already!

You know...

We are a long way behind in Britain compared to America.

If you look at some of the campaigning groups in America,

they attract millions of people.

Those websites have become much more important than some news services.

-Sioned?

-I agree that the blogging and Twitter culture is very strong

in the United States, but it also comes down to money in the States.

You can spend millions of pounds

and the person who can pay the most

can often dominate the campaigns in the US.

I think there's a big danger in that.

Suzy, do you think David Cameron will take part in a debate

before the next General Election?

I don't know.

-Would you like him too?

-Personally, no.

I don't know whether he will have another debate like last time

because I think it did have an effect on the results.

And, historically, we have to talk about Nixon.

Was it George Bush who looked at his watch?

There are some memorable lines. "Where's the beef?"

That was Reagan and Mondale.

-And the fantastic...

-"Here he goes again."

The fantastic one in the last election,

"Whoops!", by one of the Republican candidates going for a nomination.

He couldn't remember

which government departments he planning to close down.

That basically destroyed his election campaign.

What's interesting is,

I think a debate can destroy a campaign

but I don't think it can transform it for the better.

A debate is a place to avoid making mistakes.

If there was a debate in Wales before the Assembly election,

who would you expect to perform?

Kirsty? Andrew RT...? Who is the performer?

That's a big question!

You can see who the best performers are by watching

First Minister's Questions every Tuesday.

All four leaders have strengths and weaknesses.

That was diplomatic. Very professional!

Thank you for your company.

The time has flown by.

That's it for tonight.

Thank you to our guests and to you for watching.

Vaughan and I will be back at the same time next week.

Don't forget about Newyddion Naw tomorrow night

and the bulletins throughout the day.

For now, good night.