02/04/2014 Y Sgwrs


02/04/2014

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Welcome back. Who is responsible for keeping Wales healthy?

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What is a fair wage? Those are the topics for tonight's Y Sgwrs.

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Welcome. We have already heard about the Welsh Government's plans to

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improve our health, but is the nanny state alive and well?

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And what makes a fair wage?

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It is 15 years since the minimum wage was introduced.

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We'll hear about the experience of one woman who lives on just

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over £6 an hour.

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At one point I was so skint, I had to wash my clothes in the bath.

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At that point I felt very low.

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I said, how long do I have to carry on like this before things improve?

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But first tonight, our guests.

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Vaughan is here to analyse, as usual.

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Joining us is the Conservative Harri Lloyd Davies

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and the former paediatrician Dr Dewi Evans,

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who is also a town councillor for Plaid Cymru in Carmarthen town.

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And joining us from our studio in London is former Labour Assembly

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Member Delyth Evans, who will be standing in the Carmarthen West

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and South Pembrokeshire constituency at next year's General Election.

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Welcome to you all.

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As we heard on Newyddion, the Welsh Government has announced

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plans to try and tackle some of Wales' biggest health problems.

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According to Health Minister Mark Drakeford,

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the measures continue the radical public health traditions of Wales.

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But do they go too far?

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Do we need help from the Government to live more healthily?

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That question has been asked a number of times in the past.

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Headlines from a few centuries ago showed the Government was

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worried about public health.

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23 out of every 1,000 people would die.

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There was no help from the authorities.

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It was personal responsibility, but it was believed that the

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Government should do more to improve public health.

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In 1848, the first Public Health Act was passed,

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and that was in order to cut the number of deaths.

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Steel bars protect your child from the obvious killers.

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This advert from the 1950s is a health warning.

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Immunisation.

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British ministers have been legislating on public health

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legislation.

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You have examples such as wearing seat belts,

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banning smoking in public places and hygiene.

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According to Dr Myfanwy Davies,

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it is too early to assess the success of the most recent policies.

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The problem is, it works over a long time.

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You cannot say for certain that anything works,

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which has been decided by the Assembly.

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There is support for the policies on smoking in public,

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but it will take a generation to prove that it has made a difference.

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Let's come back to the present.

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The latest White Paper from the Welsh Government has

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recommended banning e-cigarettes in public places.

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But what do students think? Where are they?

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They are not in the library, that would be far too obvious.

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We live in a state with a National Health Service.

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It is only fair that the Government can give guidelines.

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They are there to serve us.

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It is up to the individual to see what is good and bad.

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The Government can pass on the information.

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I have never smoked myself,

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but you would not think about seeing someone smoke in a pub now.

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According to a Conservative MP,

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the Welsh Government is going too far when it comes to e-cigarettes.

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There is no excuse for this.

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It is a nanny state, and politicians and the Government thinking

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they know better than anyone else.

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How people should live their lives.

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But the truth is, the Health Service is under more pressure than ever

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and treating patients for alcohol

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and tobacco-related problems is one major factor in this.

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It is not surprising the Government is trying to intervene.

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As a doctor, does the Government need to help in order to get

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the message across?

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These new cigarettes help people who want to give up smoking.

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We have to welcome that.

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But they get their nicotine fix through these e-cigarettes.

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As a paediatrician, there is

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a tendency on behalf of young people to experiment.

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I hope they do not experiment with these artificial cigarettes

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and then get an addiction for those.

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I believe the Government is doing the right thing.

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I can understand both sides of the argument,

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but I would ban these cigarettes in public paces.

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Your party says it is about being a nanny state?

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Something like this worries me.

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I do not think we have seen enough testing to show that we need

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this legislation.

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It will be very difficult to ban these,

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more so than it was to ban smoking.

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It is just something that worries the minister.

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I do not think the evidence is there.

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That is a fair point.

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There is no strong evidence, is the minister jumping the gun?

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I do not think so.

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I think this point of stamping out a bad habit before it gets too

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much is a good thing.

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We heard this morning that companies that produce these

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cigarettes are targeting young people.

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They can see a possible market.

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It is not yet clear how damaging these are.

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But you do try and change behaviour.

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What I welcome from these measures is the suggestion that we

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will have a minimum number of units of alcohol being set.

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There are clear connections between setting prices for alcohol

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and illnesses.

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Vaughan, Mark Drakeford has said it is a duty

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and priority for any Government to protect public health.

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The secret here for any Government is to be one step

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ahead of public opinion.

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You cannot go too far ahead.

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When the drink-driving ban was introduced,

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that was very controversial.

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Car manufacturers had to place seat belts in cars, and it

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was another 20 years before that was legislated upon.

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I do not think the public opinion has

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formed concerning e-cigarettes yet.

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We have discussed these nudge policies,

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encouraging people to act in a certain way.

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But to introduce a ban is a different thing, isn't it?

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I do not think it is heavy-handed,

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but perhaps it is coming into early for public opinion.

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The reason for banning smoking in public places was very

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successful, because the public would police it.

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The public would confront someone who was lighting up in a bar.

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It is not clear, when someone is using an e-cigarette, if there was

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evidence concerning second-hand smoke with proper cigarettes.

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We do not have that evidence with these cigarettes yet.

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Talking about that, imagine someone trying to give up smoking,

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they try these e-cigarettes, but then they have to go out into

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the smoking section, but they will start smoking again, won't they?

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I do not think the minister

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and the Welsh Government would have made a suggestion like this unless

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they had looked into it carefully and considered it thoroughly.

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I agree, it is early days, and I agree with what

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Vaughan Roderick said about public opinion not having formed yet.

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But we want to make sure there is no

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difference between the different types of smoking,

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and they do not want young people to get sucked into bad habits.

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People can get into a habit, and there is a danger there,

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which is what we want to avoid.

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Is there a danger that these will become fashionable,

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because the packets are colourful, and they can be trendy?

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I do not smoke them but a lot of people do.

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Perhaps they could become fashionable,

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but to make them fashionable, we just need to ban them.

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We should wait and see.

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Alcohol - as a doctor,

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do you think setting a minimum price is a good thing?

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It has worked in Finland

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and in other countries.

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That is the best thing you can do to

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cut down alcohol consumption. You need to put the price up.

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I would welcome a policy which bans the sale of alcohol in supermarkets.

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I believe alcohol should only be for sale in pubs.

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But people like these bargains that you can get in supermarkets.

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People who drink one bottle of wine a week would suffer, wouldn't they?

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If you are addicted to alcohol, then you are addicted to alcohol.

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It is a terrible disease, and it will kill you.

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I am not sure how you can stop that,

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because people will find some way of getting hold of it.

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Hardly anyone drinks nothing.

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More than 80% of alcohol consumption happens in the home,

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that is the danger.

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The minimum price?

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I think it is something that will be included.

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They have tried to do it in England.

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I do not know why it needs to happen in Wales first.

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Why can't it be introduced across Britain at the same time?

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I do not understand it.

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There is a danger that Wales could become a tough place to do business.

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Do they have the power, Vaughan?

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The Government insists that there is a similar scheme in Scotland.

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The Government would not have included it in the White Paper

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unless it could be turned into legislation.

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There could be a challenge from one of the alcohol companies,

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but the Welsh Government has tended to win these arguments in the past.

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When we talk about the nanny state,

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are we seeing more of it across the world?

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What is striking is that we are becoming less liberal

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in some ways, but more liberal in other ways.

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It is a process.

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We have just seen a very liberal change when it comes to the

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marriage laws, but then we are clamping down on other things.

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Public values change from time to time.

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Things change as societies change.

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-There is now going to be a consultation process?

-Yes, 12 weeks.

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I would think the Government has the numbers in the Assembly to

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get this through, but they will be looking at it closely.

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A number of Assembly members supported the ban on smoking,

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but perhaps they are not so convinced on this.

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The minimum wage is celebrating its anniversary.

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It currently stands at £6.31, but the TUC says it is too low.

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The union wants employers to pay a living wage of £7.65 an hour

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to meet living costs.

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Recently, the union has also criticised zero hours

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contracts where workers don't have any certainty of regular work.

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Y Sgwrs has been talking to a woman from Cardiff who has

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experience of living on the minimum wage.

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I'm Efa Thomas.

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I am 23 years old, I graduated last summer.

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Since then, I have had two jobs.

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The first one was in a bar, it paid £6.31 an hour.

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Living on the minimum wage is difficult.

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It is especially difficult in the winter.

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I live in a house, and it is very cold.

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The energy prices are going up

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so I could barely afford to warm the house.

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At one point, I was so skint.

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Because of that, I had to wash my clothes in the bath.

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At that point I felt really low.

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How long would I have to scrape by before things improved?

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I believe the minimum wage should be a living wage, there is

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no reason why it should not be.

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It is just so that companies can make more profit.

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I cannot see another reason for it.

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I respect companies who say they will pay the living wage

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are those that will lead the way for other companies.

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I have friends who have zero hour contracts,

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and I think the idea is ridiculous.

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It should be banned.

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How are you supposed to have any stability in life

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when you do not know how many hours you will work?

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I believe part of the problem is that there isn't much work around.

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No matter what work you do,

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you are made to feel that you are lucky to have work.

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For the politicians who make the decisions, I would say,

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put yourself in our shoes.

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Those of us who have to work on low wages.

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Stop looking after the big companies who make profits.

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Give people who are trying to earn a living more respect.

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The experiences of Efa Thomas.

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Harri Lloyd Davies, where do you stand on this,

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are you in favour of the minimum wage but not ready for the living wage?

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The minimum wage has helped people on small wages to get an increase.

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But the living wage is unproven,

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it's something drawn up by someone from Loughborough University.

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How can you have a living wage that is fair for every area?

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It should be made clear that the figure is not easy to work out.

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Somewhere like West Wales is going to create problems,

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because people will not be able to afford to pay these wages.

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-Could you live on the minimum wage?

-I haven't tried, to be honest.

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You need flexibility.

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It helps companies to be more flexible.

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People would be better off working than not working.

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There is a danger, if you try to increase wages too quickly.

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Are you in favour of the living wage?

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Certainly. £7.65 is not a big wage.

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The best way to improve health is to tackle poverty.

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The best way to tackle poverty is to make sure that people

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have an income, and they have work.

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What about the employers who can't afford this?

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We have had a minimum wage for some time now,

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and it has not led to a fall in employees.

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We still have more people in work than are unemployed.

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That was the right wing's scare tactic

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when the minimum wage was introduced.

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It did not lead to a loss of jobs.

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If you lift the wage to this figure

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which they have called a living wage,

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perhaps it will be too much.

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When you look at countries where the minimum wages are more than Britain,

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they have less unemployment and people are healthier.

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We must learn from these countries.

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Delyth Evans, George Osborne wants full employment,

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he wants a minimum wage that increases faster than inflation.

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He's stolen your ideas?!

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Everyone knows this is a political tactic from George Osborne.

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He has not spoken about this before.

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He is trying to step on Labour ground.

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Ed Miliband has led the way and talked about this,

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and he has said that when Labour are elected,

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they would encourage companies to pay a living wage

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by offering lower taxes.

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He is trying to encourage people to move towards this.

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People are finding it difficult because of poverty.

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I worked for John Smith, the leader of the Labour Party,

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when the minimum wage policy was brought forward.

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The Conservatives said at the time that people would lose jobs

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and it would be terrible for the economy.

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There was no effect at all on jobs.

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We have had all of this before.

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What is interesting now is that all parties say

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they welcome the minimum wage.

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The debate has moved on, and I welcome that.

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The gap between the parties has closed on this?

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The Conservatives know, once you lose a political battle,

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there is no point going over it again.

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Labour has proved that its policy was correct.

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Nobody would like to go back to a situation

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where it was possible for people to be paid hardly anything.

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When it comes to whether or not the living wage is affordable,

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some councils in Wales use it already, don't they?

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Yes, and this is not a party political thing.

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But the councils are facing a difficult economic time,

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even some Labour councils have said they cannot afford it.

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There are even some Labour councils who use zero-hours contracts.

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What about these contracts, are they fair?

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I think they work.

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At the end of the day, they are used by these companies

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who do not really want to use them.

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You want to employ staff who will be with you for years,

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but sometimes, you have to be flexible,

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to get people in to help you out when large contracts come in.

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But people cannot afford to rent houses, get mortgages?

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That is why you would not want to employ people in this manner.

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You want good people who stay with you.

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I think the rules have to be the same for the employer

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and the employee.

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It is easy for an employer to get someone in at the start

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of their career, youngsters, and maybe for those

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who have been unemployed for some time.

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It is good for them to have flexibility.

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-So they can be justified?

-But after a period,

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if someone has worked for someone for six months or so,

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then the rights should change and they should have the same rights.

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I do not think this is something

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that someone should have to suffer from for life.

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People need certainty that they will have a job tomorrow.

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Currently, someone can demand that you are sat at home

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and not take another job in case you're needed next week.

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Thanks. Delyth, thanks for joining us from London. Time has flown.

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Thanks to our guests and to you for your company.

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We will be taking a break over Easter

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but we will be back on 30 April.

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Until then, goodbye.

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