30/04/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back. How many powers should be devolved to Wales?

Should the standard of the Welsh language be raised on Radio Cymru?

And what's the value of the royal family?

Plenty to discuss over the next half an hour on Y Sgwrs.

Hello and welcome. Here with me to discuss the issues as usual

is our Welsh Affairs Editor, Vaughan Roderick.

Joining us in the studio is the broadcaster, Tweli Griffiths,

and former Plaid Cymru Assembly Member, Nerys Evans.

Over in London is the Conservative MP, Guto Bebb.

A very warm welcome to you all.

In the next half an hour, we'll be talking about

the standard of the Welsh language on Radio Cymru.

Does the national station need to be marked with a red pen?

During the past week, the Queen has visited Wales.

How relevant is the royal family these days?

They have done a lot to draw attention to this area.

I'm sure they've attracted people to the area.

All that to come. But first, politicians in the House of Commons

have been debating new powers for the Welsh Government today.

The Wales Bill is on its journey through Parliament

and if it's passed, it will give Wales powers to borrow money

and change some taxes.

Lleu Williams from the Wales Governance Centre

has been following its journey so far.

The main things that are currently being discussed

are devolving tax powers to Wales and the Assembly,

devolving other powers, including stamp duty,

and there are also points in the bill regarding borrowing powers

to the Assembly and the Welsh Government,

which means the government will be able to borrow money

in order to pay for large projects,

including the extension of the M4 motorway around Newport.

The most controversial things in the Wales Bill,

are, firstly, what are being called the locked steps,

which means the Welsh government can only change

the tax rates up or down in each band.

Many people have questioned

the value of those powers to the government.

The second point is a referendum on tax-raising powers.

But some are questioning, firstly,

whether the referendum should be held,

secondly, whether people will vote for any tax powers, anyway,

and thirdly, whether the responsibility should be optional.

I would argue that it should not be.

Changing laws in Wales has happened at a quicker rate

than in any other part of the UK.

I can't see that changing in the next few years.

We will discuss those points in a moment, Vaughan,

but the focus today has been on the way in which candidates are chosen.

It looks like we are going to return to the system

where candidates are allowed to stand

on both the regional list and elections.

Yes. And of course, if that system was in place,

it is possible that Nerys Evans would still be an Assembly member.

The same could be said for Glyn Davies,

Nick Bourne, Jonathan Morgan.

The opposition parties have realised they have lost a lot of talent

in the Assembly because of this.

It is not the same in Scotland,

although Labour have paid the price

for changing rules within the party.

It resulted in Scotland losing

a lot of experienced politicians last time,

who are now working for people who were their researchers,

and were standing on the regional list.

There is a consensus on this between the Assembly opposition parties,

Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives,

but I doubt whether Labour can change things back.

Labour are very tribal in this voting system.

The members of Parliament in particular hate the idea

of this double opportunity to win a seat in the Assembly.

Many people say that the system is undemocratic.

You have somebody who loses a vote, an election,

but manages to win by going in through the back door.

That is technically possible.

But personally, I would prefer to lose that element of democracy

in order to make sure that list of talent Vaughan just mentioned

can be voted into the body that represents us.

They were talented and I feel they are sorely missed.

Guto Bebb, one of the arguments put forward today

by the Welsh Secretary, David Jones,

was that the smaller parties had less talent than the main parties.

Do you think it is an acknowledgement

that the Conservatives find it difficult to attract candidates?

I don't think so. I think it's a reflection

of the changes made by Labour in 2006.

I think it's done to damage all parties in Wales.

I think that despite Labour's claims,

that it was unacceptable to return

to the system initially introduced by Labour for the Assembly.

The system in place in the Labour Party at the moment,

the one that Labour wants, is only in operation in the Ukraine.

Therefore, I think Labour's claims about this are totally unfair.

It's a change that is being welcomed by every party in Wales,

with the exception of Labour.

I think if you oppose the system,

that's fair enough, I understand your point,

but if you choose to use the system, it is important

that you have the best people possible voted into the Assembly.

Another element in this, Nerys,

is the possibility of having more Assembly members.

You're a former member yourself.

We frequently hear, although it's not a popular message on the street,

that the present members have an extremely heavy workload

and therefore we need more than 60 members. Is that true?

Yes, definitely. When I was in the Assembly,

sometimes members were part of several committees

which met at the same time and had to move from one room to another.

It's not popular to say that we need more politicians,

but the truth of the matter is that we need to invest

in having the best democracy for Wales.

With more powers being devolved to Wales,

taxes, more powers being devolved,

it is important that we have a critical mass of people

scrutinising the government and making sure

that our government is the best we can possibly have.

In regards to other things in this bill, Guto Bebb,

the one that has created the most discussion

are these tax-raising powers.

We have heard from experts,

who have looked into matters regarding devolution,

several people within universities in Wales,

who say that the system being recommended,

that the Welsh government could only change the rate of income tax

if they adapt every rate,

and that would be completely pointless.

What is the point of this?

I think sometimes the experts do not understand politics at all.

It's very easy to sit in ivory towers

and talk about what should happen in an ideal world,

but they need to work within the political circumstances.

The truth of the matter is that the step of acknowledging

the need to devolve income tax is an important one.

It is an important message to the people in Wales.

But the principle is one thing, the way it works is another.

The principle in this case is more important than anything else.

The principle of devolving the responsibility for income tax,

in my opinion, is more important than any views against this policy,

which are being raised by someone

in an ivory tower in a Cardiff university.

This principle is both important and key.

I think it is very interesting that the coalition

are making sure that this is happening.

Yes, but reading between the lines,

is it not true that we have these limited powers

because they exist in Scotland only?

The truth is that would disappear in a short space of time regardless.

Certainly. I don't think anyone will be surprised

that Danny Alexander has been part of this process in Wales.

Who can say what will happen after September?

Can I ask you more question on this matter before we move on?

Nerys Evans, do you think that Wales

is having what Scotland has had and nothing else,

like the poor child in a family

who receives the first-born child's leftover clothes,

regardless of whether the colours or style suit them?

I would argue that we are not even getting what Scotland has.

Discussions regarding measures for Wales is an important step forward,

but if we look at the mature discussions taking place in Scotland

regarding what should be devolved and the future of that country,

it breaks my heart when you compare it

with the discussions we had in Wales.

Unfortunately, they are two completely separate debates.

OK. Let's move on to another topic.

The group Dyfodol i'r Iaith

has set Radio Cymru a May Day challenge.

According to the organisation, the standard of the service

has deteriorated since new presenters took over.

But they haven't gone so far as to name an individual presenter.

While referring to poor language

and English songs on the station,

they say the situation needs to be reviewed immediately.

According to the BBC, programmes on Radio Cymru

should be available to every listener,

whether they're fluent or not.

And there are elements within the new timetable which safeguard both.

They also insist Welsh music hasn't been cut

as a result of the new schedules.

Who is right? Is it Betsan Powys, as the head of the station,

or Dyfodol i'r Iaith?

The starting point here and the principle is

that if you're listening to a service

that is supposed to be Welsh, you expect to hear Welsh.

But what standard of Welsh? That is the question.

It does not mean that you should not have any English at all.

I remember enjoying a programme on Radio Cymru a long time ago

that offered the history and music

of the most popular bands in the world.

The commentary was in Welsh,

but the programme was mainly in English as a result of the songs.

I never thought I was listening to an English programme.

I saw it as a Welsh programme.

I had an opportunity to enjoy a different culture

through my own language.

I think it is very important for us as Welsh-speaking people

not to lose the confidence of being able to do that.

Do you think English slang

has made its way into everyday language on Radio Cymru?

And if so, does that concern you?

We only have one Welsh language radio station

and one Welsh language television channel.

They need to cover everything for everyone.

And therefore, we need a variety of standards.

We do not expect everybody on Radio 4

to sound like Stephen Fry, for example.

But there's a difference between that and being correct.

Do you think people are crossing over that line?

That's what Dyfodol i'r Iaith are suggesting.

I would argue that we need to concentrate on increasing

the number of Welsh speakers and those that use Welsh,

rather than focus on debates which could dent learners' confidence

and therefore prevent them from listening to Radio Cymru

and watching S4C.

From my experience as a reporter,

and I'm sure Tweli would say the same,

we have a problem particularly in south Wales,

especially in east Carmarthenshire,

where you talk to people and the response you get is,

"My Welsh is not good enough."

I think there's a danger that Dyfodol i'r Iaith

is sending out a message saying,

your type of Welsh is not good enough.

You're talking about Welsh in the Amman Valley, the Swansea Valley

and so on, where that concern has been in place for decades.

Guto Bebb, there's been a decline

in the number of listeners to Radio Cymru.

There was a national debate on it over the summer.

Do you think the station has hit the right balance?

I have no idea. The problem for me

is that the big changes happened between Monday and Thursday

and I am never around on those days to listen to Radio Cymru.

I'm very happy with the service on Friday and Saturday.

The work they do with sport on Saturday afternoon is fantastic.

Personally, I would not be too concerned

that people are worried about Tommo's language

and the English songs on his programme.

I would worry more if there were mistakes in the news programmes.

I think there is a place for everyday Welsh,

be it from the west, north or east,

but I also think that when it comes to factual programmes,

you need linguistic correctness.

Maybe we should ensure that correctness in those programmes,

which would allow the popular programmes to be more colloquial.

Let's return to the question of English music on the station.

We recently heard from Dewi Pws.

He was adamant that there should not be any English music

on a radio station specifically aimed at Welsh listeners.

If people want to listen to English music,

why do they not switch to Radio 1, Radio 2 or Radio 3?

Some people in Wales make their living

out of having their Welsh-language songs played on Radio Cymru.

You have to consider how much English music is used.

I am not in a situation to criticise

because I don't always listen to the service.

Radio Cymru says more Welsh music is being played now than before.

If that is true, I am happy with it.

From what I understand, the Tommo programme, for example,

plays one English song every hour.

I do not find that unacceptable.

To broaden the discussion slightly,

this week, changes have been made to ITV's weekday morning programme

to popularise news, if you like.

It is a battle to keep an audience

and to ensure that the audience is not only retained, but increases.

Well, in English, there is more and more competition.

There are more and more channels.

What is interesting about ITV is that for years,

they had the most popular breakfast programme in Britain.

It was a much more lowbrow programme than they have at the moment.

So this idea that everything is dumbed down,

that is not true.

Some things are moving in the opposite correction.

But with these English programmes,

only a few radio stations, even those abroad,

do not play English music.

You can hear them in France, Germany, across Asia.

That is worldwide music.

But having said that,

we only have one Welsh language national station.

There's currently a suggestion of having a second station.

Would that change the situation?

Could you have a high standard of Welsh on one

and something else on the other?

It would help, but why only two?

We have digital technology which would allow us more than two.

But maybe there is not the money to allow that.

Radio Cymru's primary language is Welsh.

If English is used, we need a reason and justification.

I think with young people's programmes,

they expect to hear English music

and there is nothing wrong with appreciating English music

through the medium of Welsh.

I don't see a problem with that at all.

Maybe it would be a bit different with other programmes

which are broadcast in the mornings and afternoons.

OK. Let's turn to yet another hot potato.

Finally, the royal family has received

a lot of media attention over the last few weeks.

Today, the Queen ended her visit to Wales.

And William and Kate's visit to New Zealand and Australia

received a lot of publicity.

But does that bore us or entertain us?

Janet Ebenezer went on her own tour of Llandeilo

to ask some people there.

There's no doubt that Carreg Cennen Castle has seen better days

but it's easy to imagine this place in its full glory

during the days of Lord Rhys.

The princes may no longer be part of the community,

but we still get a few Royal visits,

don't we, Cadi?

This week, the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh have been

on a two-day tour of Pembrokeshire and the Vale of Glamorgan.

They received the usual warm welcome

from a crowd of local school children

and a cross-section of local residents.

One with a link to the Royal Family

is the High Sheriff of Dyfed and broadcaster Elinor Jones.

The High Sheriff's role these days is to be a ceremonial figure

at social meetings and to maintain a link with social services,

as well as raising money for different charities.

But, from time to time, she will also be responsible

of guiding the Royal Family on their tours around the county.

I never thought, when I was raised for the first three years of my life

in a two-up, two-down thatched house,

I would become a High Sheriff.

I didn't know what one was until recently - until I was in my 30s.

In that sense, I think it's a very good thing

that the role is being offered to people outside one class.

How relevant do you think the Royal Family is to people in Wales?

If you had asked me years ago, I would have said...

pointless, maybe.

I know they're only figureheads.

What did the economist John Maynard Keynes say?

Circumstances changed so I changed.

There is a stability there. It's hard to put your finger on it.

But they are there.

What about the future of our Royal Family?

From the second George was carried off the plane in New Zealand

to his appearance at Taronga Zoo in Sydney,

this young family's Royal visit has claimed the headlines

for whatever reason.

Without a doubt,

this trio represents the long-term future of the Crown.

But how important and relevant are they to Wales and the Welsh?

Since Prince Charles came to live in this area,

they've done a lot to draw publicise the area

and attract people here.

I don't have strong feelings about them either way.

But if they bring people to the area, great -

bringing tourism and money into the area.

The Royal Family in general? I don't have an opinion.

I'm happy enough

and it doesn't bother me if they're there or not.

When I was young, I used to dream about being a princess here

in the castle. For some, the romance of the Royal Family continues.

For others, they're irrelevant.

By the way, I didn't find my prince charming,

but he's close enough.

He'll be glad to hear that. There was support in Llandeilo.

Are you as supportive of the Royal Family, Guto Bebb?

In general, are they irrelevant to the people of Wales?

The answer is obviously "no".

People appreciate them.

Over the last few days,

two of the MPs who share an office with me went back to their

constituencies to welcome the Queen - Alun Cairns and Simon Hart.

The local people also gave the Royals a warm welcome.

I'm on the Public Accounts Committee

and, having looked at the Queen's accounts,

if government departments were as responsible

this country would be in a far better state.

One of the criticisms we hear is that they are expensive.

They have cut 25% of expenditure over five years in real terms.

They're more real than have been.

Where do I start?

I don't think they're relevant. I don't think people relate to them.

I don't think they understand what it's like

to be a young person living in Wales.

You say people can't relate to them but when you see Harry getting drunk

in Las Vegas,

maybe not everyone can afford to go to a luxury hotel in Las Vegas,

but that's the sort of behaviour many people can relate to.

Well, maybe.

I can't see the purpose of having the Royal Family, to be honest.

I believe strongly in democracy

and I'd like a head of state elected by the people of Wales

rather than someone born into the role.

If you support them, or shake your head like Nerys,

you can't argue that there isn't a curiosity.

The Royal Family does spark people's curiosity

for whatever reason.

I think that's true.

It's amazing how stable their popularity has been

since those difficult days when the Queen had the annus horribilis,

as she described it,

with the family problems.

I think any nation with a Royal Family

is a fortunate nation because it's a powerful force

in terms of unity, loyalty, national pride and so on.

England is a fortunate nation to have this Royal Family

and that's why so many people from Wales

long for the Age of the princes in Wales.

We don't have our own royalty.

Due to that void,

many people in Wales do support the Royal Family.

Vaughan, you regularly visit Australia,

and you'll know that it's difficult for people to turn their backs.

I was in Australia during the referendum

on establishing a republic in Australia.

The problem was, the Royal Family weren't particularly popular.

Australians aren't particularly fond of the English.

But once you look at the other options, they asked,

do we really want a politician as head of state?

Do we want to elect someone

who might compete with parliament for power?

Do we want parliament to appoint someone?

That meant there was a significant majority

against getting rid of the Crown

because people didn't like the other options.

If Australia can't get rid of the Royal Family,

there's no chance the UK will get rid of them in the near future.

Briefly, Guto Bebb, have they tried to modernise?

We've seen the younger generation taking on more duties.

Is that the trick?

I think there's some truth in that.

The interesting thing is the difference between

the SNP and Plaid Cymru.

The SNP is able to see that the Royal Family is popular.

Elizabeth I will remain Queen of Scotland

if they vote for independence.

On that note, Guto Bebb, Tweli Griffiths,

Nerys Evans and Vaughan Roderick, thank you for your company.

And thank you for watching.

We'll be back at the same time next week. Good night.