07/05/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back.

It has been 15 years since the first Assembly elections,

but is there any cause for celebration?

And are the council cuts threatening the future of the arts in Wales?

That is what we will be discussing this evening on Y Sgwrs.

Good evening and welcome to Y Sgwrs.

Here tonight to look back at devolution, we are joined by

the former First Minister, Rhodri Morgan,

the presenter and singer Caryl Parry Jones,

and the president of the Welsh Liberal Democrats,

Christine Humphreys, joins us from London.

And as usual, Vaughan Roderick is also here to offer his views.

Welcome to you all.

On tonight's programme, we will be discussing whether

work e-mails should be banned after 6:00pm

and the concerns of one familiar face

about the effect of the financial cuts on the arts.

We depend on public money in the arts

and I am worried that only wealthy people will be able to afford

to work in the arts in the future.

But first this evening, it's 15 years since the first Assembly elections,

and for those of you who may not remember,

May 6th 1999 was that historic day.

So is it time to celebrate the success of devolution,

or has the new system had little effect on our everyday lives?

Our reporter, Janet Ebenezer, has been looking back.

15 years ago, Wales hosted the Rugby World Cup,

but they lost to Australia in the quarterfinals.

The euro replaced the peseta, the deutsche mark and the franc

across Europe, but not the pound of course.

And Huw Edwards started presenting the 6:00pm news on BBC One.

As well as that, the Assembly opened its doors for the first time

since Owain Glyndwr's parliament 600 years ago.

So let's enjoy the high points and the low points of the Assembly

over the last 15 years.

It was Labour's night 15 years ago,

and one or two familiar faces reported on the night.

It was a minority government and the party experienced a change

in leadership less than nine months later.

Alun Michael decided to resign as First Secretary

following threats of a vote of no-confidence.

Rhodri Morgan was elected to fill the post five days later.

However, after experiencing problems leading a minority government,

the Labour Party was forced to form a coalition

with the Liberal Democrats.

That relationship lasted until the 2003 election.

The measures outlined in Mrs Windsor's speech

will not address this risk.

While some opposed the royal family,

most members welcomed the Queen to open the new Assembly building

and to approve the 2006 Government of Wales Act.

Following the 2007 election, once again, Labour's victory

was not enough to lead with a majority.

This time, Plaid Cymru would be the party to lead with Labour.

According to Rhodri Morgan, it was a choice between the unpleasant

and a choice he could not stomach.

2011 was one of the most memorable years

in the history of devolution in Wales

with Wales voting yes in the referendum on more powers.

And Nobody was expecting Carwyn Jones' government to literally fly.

And for the first time ever, a visit from the Prime Minister and his deputy last year

to announce new powers for the Welsh Government,

including the right, possibly, to vary income tax.

So that is the last 15 years on the big screen in less than two minutes.

Let's look at what is happening now live on the stage.

I think there is still confusion about devolution in Wales and how it works.

We have a complicated system,

compared to what they have in Scotland.

We can only legislate on specific matters,

while in Scotland, they can legislate on anything

apart from the things that have been kept back.

But what is the opinion of those who do not remember life before the Assembly?

This group of pupils are from Ysgol Bro Ddyfi.

I do think it has changed Wales. It has given our parties more powers.

I think it has been good for Wales,

but I certainly think it's time for them to have more powers.

I think it is a good thing on the whole, but it could be improved.

I can't remember a time without it.

But I can't remember much change with it either.

We have a different education system. We don't have SATs.

We have the Welsh Baccalaureate.

In the health service, we have free prescriptions and they do not have that in England.

So there are big differences because of the Assembly

and that's been a big factor in living in Wales.

In the context of British politics, the Assembly is relatively young,

but what about the next 15 years?

Well, that is in the hands of the politicians.

I feel very old all of a sudden!

You have not changed at all!

What was I wearing?!

Anyway, take us back. This was a huge change, wasn't it?

It was.

And it only happened by a narrow margin because of the referendum.

And there were problems in the Assembly from the very start

because Ron Davies and others designed the system to win the referendum.

There were deficiencies in the system.

People found it difficult to differentiate between the government and the Assembly.

There were also questions at the time about the capacity of the civil service in Wales

to deal with the change and all the new ideas and policies that were coming through.

People say now about the foundation phase,

and they were great ideas,

but the capacity was not there in the civil service

to deliver all of those changes in a short time.

Foundation Phase, we're seeing it this week,

is being seen as a success.

It wasn't easy to introduce because there was such a change

between the Welsh Office system and an elected government.

We'll come to the politicians later, but you were singing in 1979,

but what were your hopes in 1999?

I remember the night the victory happened.

After going through the nightmare of 1979,

I sat on my sofa at home, with my youngest in my arms,

and cried that night.

I felt that something big had happened.

Going to vote for the first time was also a cause for celebration.

I congratulate all the politicians

for what they have done over the last 15 years.

I admire them.

I have never wanted to go into the political world.

I am not creative enough.

But I think the last 15 years, anything that has been...

..created to help Wales has to be a good thing.

Rhodri Morgan, back in 1999,

Alun Michael and Tony Blair were against you.

You were standing there and you got a good majority in that election.

If I remember, 60%. What are your memories of that night?

I remember winning in the end.

I thought, after a few results coming out certain counties,

we weren't going to win.

We knew at five o'clock in the morning that Carmarthenshire

had come in with a yes vote and we had got over the line.

But the important thing, looking back,

was that the no campaign made these claims that Wales,

was a country that had such a north and south divide,

and the Welsh speaking and non-Welsh speaking,

we could never run Wales and it would we scandal after scandal,

that non-Welsh speakers would never speak with Welsh speakers,

that the north couldn't cooperate with the south.

Denying all those claims

and the jobs for the boys,

jobs for your mates especially in the Labour Party,

so avoiding those kind of scandals

and those nasty claims of the no campaign,

that was the most important thing,

because we have proved that that was not the case.

The scandals in Scotland have been much worse,

about the exams, about the votes in the 2007 election

and the trams and so on.

We haven't seen anything like that in Wales.

Let's bring Christine Humphreys in.

What are the big successes of the Assembly so far?

I think it is the fact that it still exists.

Is that huge praise?

I think it is.

The Assembly is very young.

It has had successes.

I think most Welsh people

feel very close to the Assembly now.

Has education and health improved?

No, and those are some of the weaknesses.

Education and health services, there are problems.

The challenge for the Assembly

is to realise that it is all right to do things differently.

That is the right that devolution gives you.

But if you do things differently,

you have to do things better or as well as England.

Has that happened, Rhodri Morgan?

Your party has been in power.

I think you make a huge mistake

if you accept a measuring stick which has been set in England

to measure success in England.

And you accept a measuring stick like that

and try to use it in Wales.

That is never going to work.

-But has education and health improved?

-Yes.

Caryl Parry Jones, have they improved?

I don't know exactly what is going on behind Assembly doors,

just like I don't know what goes on behind hospital theatre doors

or plumber's pipes.

But I hear teachers complaining,

although that is not an unusual thing.

I hear headteachers say things are difficult at the moment.

I hear doctors saying

waiting times and so on are difficult.

But I am not sure whether that is because of the Assembly

and devolution or whether it would exist anyway.

I would agree with Rhodri Morgan.

Education and health are better than in 1999.

That is mainly because we now spend more money on them,

despite the cuts due to the increase in public spending

that happened during Tony Blair's Labour government.

But is devolution responsible for that?

Well, that is the question.

I think it is fair to compare Wales and Scotland,

Wales and Northern Ireland, Wales and England.

Where it gets pointless, I think,

is when you pick one statistic out or one measurement out,

where Labour picks one where Wales has seen improvements,

Maybe the Tories would choose another where Wales looks worse.

That is pointless, because we have to look at the thing as a whole.

With regard to public services,

they are better in Wales today than in 1999.

But they are better in England as well.

Christine Humphreys, you are in Westminster in the second chamber.

How does the level of discussion compare?

It is very different.

When I listen to some of the people in the House of Lords

debating and discussing, I admire them very much.

There is so much experience and ability there.

Not that that does not exist in the Assembly,

but it is a different level.

In a word or a sentence, Rhodri Morgan,

what is your biggest disappointment about devolution?

That the Welsh psychology has not changed.

People in England do not compare what is happening in Wales

with what is happening in England or Scotland,

they don't care.

In Wales, which is unique, I think within the UK,

we tend to look over the border and say, that is happening in England,

why is it not happening in Wales?

That psychology has not shifted.

The old colonial psychology.

I think that is a huge challenge for the Assembly in the future.

People who support the Welsh rugby team

have their red dragon flags out on a Saturday,

if England are playing in the European cup the next day,

the Union Jack is out in the same window.

People are still saying their Welsh language is not good enough.

We have to remove their Britishness, in a way,

and encourage a Welsh identity.

I acknowledge that is a huge challenge for the Assembly.

Thanks. We have heard a lot from the arts world recently,

with the celebrations to mark the centenary of Dylan Thomas' birth.

However, many theatres, museums and libraries

face an uncertain future as local authority cuts bite.

So how important is it to protect the arts when money falls short?

Here is the view of the performer and artist Martyn Geraint,

who is fighting to save his local theatre in Pontypridd.

The first thing to say about the arts is that they are popular.

People enjoy going to the theatre to see a play or even a pantomime.

They like going to listen to music or to see pictures in a gallery.

And they are willing to spend money to do so,

which shows its popularity - especially the Cardis!

Even if the Welsh government didn't spend a penny on the arts,

people would still want to perform, even in places like this.

The Welsh government has to see the importance of the arts.

They give the Welsh council millions of pounds,

and people like me are very grateful that money.

I'm among 6,000 people who depend on that money,

but the arts can give an understanding of Wales to tourists,

and if we have high standard works,

we can take it out of Wales to show the world.

But that work starts locally.

And that is where the concern begins, because of politics.

The obvious example in Pontypridd is the threat to the Muni Theatre.

It is an example of the cuts having an impact locally.

We depend on public money in the arts,

and it worries me that only wealthy people will be able

to afford to work in the arts in the future.

Something close to my heart, naturally,

is the effect these cuts will have on children

and children's education,

because if children in Welsh schools cannot go to their local theatre

to watch a show they enjoy in the Welsh language,

then the Welsh language will turn

into the language of school and statistics.

And once that happens, it is goodbye for us all.

Rhodri Morgan, as First Minister,

how high on the list of priorities were the arts?

They were not as high as health and education and economic development.

But they were quite high.

In the end, we solved the problem

that had been facing Wales for 25 years, and that was what to do

about a permanent home for the Welsh National Opera.

We did it in the end.

I understand that money is tighter now than it was then,

and we can see that there are threats to theatres in Cardiff

and Pontypridd and other places, but we need a new model.

But if you have to make cuts as a politician,

the arts are an easy target.

Yes, but it is not about cuts, it is about looking for a new model.

You can't just close theatres in Cardiff and the Muni in Pontypridd.

What is the model? Bring the private sector in?

Why should we bring the private sector in? I feel sad.

There are two points here.

One is...there is a quote from Winston Churchill, of all people.

Not that I agree with much he said.

Every time there is a threat to a theatre,

a quote makes the rounds on social media

saying that people in his Cabinet during the Second World War said,

"Why don't we cut back on the arts to help the war effort?"

And Winston Churchill said, "What is it we are fighting for?

"Why are we fighting?"

Why do we work? Why do we go out and earn?

What is the point of having that livelihood?

It is to feel better about ourselves.

To fund our lives and enjoy ourselves.

-Everybody needs that leisure.

-If you can afford it.

Yes, but there are plenty of things that are affordable,

like libraries and so on.

The second thing is, it is an industry.

If you cut that industry, a lot of people will lose their jobs,

and they can't do anything else, like me for example.

There are other models. If you look at the valleys,

most of the theatres in the valleys - not the Muni,

which happens to be an old chapel,

but most of them are former mining halls.

They were built by contributions and they were run by committees.

If you look within the arts, there are charities

and partnerships which can raise money locally.

Chapter in Cardiff is a massive success.

I was there lunchtime today.

I think that's the best arts centre in Britain.

It doesn't get a penny from the council.

But how much choice do these councils have in reality?

-They have to keep a lot of the statutory stuff.

-Yes.

The things they are allowed to cut or close are in the minority.

You have to look at theatres, libraries,

leisure centres and so on.

I must say, from the councils' perspective,

the Welsh government did give councils time to prepare.

English councils have been facing these cuts for three years.

The councils knew this was coming,

and so you have to ask of some councils,

why wasn't that time afforded them by the Welsh government

used to prepare for what was to come?

Christine, we are talking about cuts, and yet we look at north Wales

and there is a massive new PONTIO centre opening in Bangor.

Some councils are thinking imaginatively.

They are.

You were talking about some children not being able to go to theatres.

Some councils have come up with the idea

of theatres coming to the school

and actors coming to the schools to work with children.

I think we in Wales are really lucky that we have the Urdd organisation,

which helps children understand our culture

and gives them an opportunity to act

and sing and recite and draw and create models, whatever.

And more than that, the people coming up with creative things,

these are people creating things from nothing.

For example, books for children. There's nothing there.

They write a story and then children

get that story to broaden their horizons.

Finally this evening, does your boss keep sending you e-mails

after you have left the office?

Well, in the age of the smartphone, the Plaid Cymru MP Jonathan Edwards

is calling on the UK government to follow France's example

and ban employers from sending e-mails to their staff after 6pm.

It is hoped the idea will be discussed in the House of Commons.

Rhodri Morgan, do you e-mail in the night?

Not while I was working.

I learnt to send e-mails after I retired.

I used to like to have paper to rewrite letters from civil servants.

I couldn't use the edit suite on the computer.

Could people get hold of you when you were gardening as a first minister?

I send e-mails at night and during the day,

but I send e-mails to my friends in the night.

We only send each other funny ones after six o'clock.

I need to tell you a story.

I remember being in Rhodri's house on the night he found out

he was going to be able to form a government,

because the Liberal Democrats had pulled out of the rainbow coalition.

Nick Speed, the ITV correspondent,

had to stand on the gate to get a mobile phone signal!

-That's right, yes.

-Caryl, do you e-mail at all hours?

I am guilty of being a slave to my phone.

One of my mid year's resolutions is to use it less.

As a freelancer, if somebody asked me at ten o'clock

to do a job the next day for £100, I am going to be there.

Christine Humphreys, what about you?

-Is Nick Clegg e-mailing you at night?

-I have no idea. I think that I do.

I must admit, I am one of those people,

the last thing I do before going to sleep is check my phone.

First thing in the morning after getting up,

I check my phone to see whether there is any mail.

I do e-mail at night.

But I do not expect an answer until the next morning.

-Caryl Parry Jones, is the balance right?

-No.

These smartphones contain so much information.

I was talking to a friend today who turned off their phone

last night at ten o'clock. Somebody tried to phone her.

She decided to ignore it,

and then the friend phoned again the next morning and said,

"I knew you were there because you wrote something on Facebook."

-So there is no escape.

-And there's Lavinia.

-AS LAVINIA:

-You know, it's awful!

Lavinia wouldn't know how to use it!

Thanks. Rhodri Morgan, will you be e-mailing and tweeting tonight?

No, I will be practising the piano.

-Really?

-That's what I do last thing at night. Practice playing piano.

That is a very good idea. Thank you to all our guests.

And I'll be e-mailing the hens, telling them to lay eggs.

Do they ever reply? They tweet.

That's it for this evening.

There is no programme next Wednesday night.

We will be back the following week to discuss the European elections.

Until then, from me and Vaughan, good evening.