06/07/2011 am.pm

Good morning and welcome to the programme. We've got a Parrott in

the Assembly. Don't worry, it's nothing to be worried about.

The political term may be drawing to a close but there's plenty going

on here in Cardiff Bay and in Westminster. On today's programme:

We'll be at Prime Minister's Questions as calls intensify for a

public inquiry into the allegations of phone hacking by News of the

World journalists. And as Eluned Parrott is expected

to join the Liberal Democrat group, will AMs allow Aled Roberts to take

his seat in the Assembly? As the First Minister meets the

Chancellor to talk money, I will be asking what the Government means by

As usual we joined by two AMs here on the sofa - the former culture

minister and Plaid Cymru AM, Alun Ffred Jones, and Peter Black from

the Liberal Democrats. Good morning. You will be proposing the motion

this afternoon to have Aled Roberts reinstated. Kenya just set out for

us now how you think the life of the land is -- can you just set

out? He was sworn in -- Eluned Parrott

was signed in 15 minutes ago. It is difficult to know how it will pan

out. It is a quiet sigh a judicial process. People need to vote on the

basis of the evidence and AMs will be listening to the debate and

looking at the report by eight Gerard ally us. -- by Gerard Elias.

My view is that we have a very strong case for Aled Roberts. It

was good in terms of setting out why there are exceptional

circumstances, he was misled by the advice he received and we point out

that in those circumstances, it would be right to reinstate him.

That is all very well to say that but some AMs I have spoken to say

that they probably won't support Aled Roberts.

Party politics is creeping in. That is a matter for them. Party

politics should not be involved. It is like a licensing application and

people need to vote on the basis of the evidence in front of them. I

would hope that the Assembly Members would do that. Listen to

the arguments and vote accordingly. It is not appropriate that partisan

politics take a place in this decision.

We will ask Alun Ffred Jones. You will have a vote, will you tell us

how it will be cast? If you read the Gerard Elias report,

it points fairly strongly in one direction. I must admit that you

mentioned earlier that this is a queasy judicial process. Planning

was done on the basis of the facts, we would have very different

results. To be fair, the Liberals have a strong history of voting the

conventions at a local level. Not in my authority!

You will vote to have Aled Roberts reinstated?

I will be taking strong note of the Gerard Elias report and personally

I think this should have been sorted out early on. I think,

basically, this is a technical breach and it was not meant, as

Gerard Elias points out, it was not meant to benefit anybody. I think

commonsense should have prevailed earlier on in this process.

Other colleagues of yours will obviously have to vote in favour of

Aled Roberts is heat -- if he is to be reinstated. What are your

colleagues in Plaid Cymru say in? It is a freak road.

You must have spoken about it certainly.

I have heard that some are in favour and one or two will will

abstain or vote against. As it stands, we are around two

hours before. If you were to put your house on it?

I am not a betting man. I will do my best. I have a speech written

out and will put my facts in front of the Assembly. I will respond to

anybody and we will do our best to convince people to vote the right

way. His Aled Roberts in the Assembly?

No, he is in Wrexham. I have consulted him on some facts of the

case, writing my speech. The defence is based on the use of

the Welsh language and the weight you attach to that, whether the

inclination provided in Welsh was correct.

Does that have a bearing on your decision?

Certainly, it is an interesting one. If people believe that is not

relevant, it calls into question the evidence provided by Gerard

Elias but also, I suppose, it does question the validity of the use of

Welsh in document. It is a tricky one anyway.

Any body dealing with a public body should be able to do so in the

language of their choice and have information provided with equal

status and correct information in both languages. That is the

principle of the defence. Peter Black mentioned that Aled

Roberts will be keeping a close eye. He can do that through BBC

Democracy Live coverage. Well we've just discussed the main

event in the Senedd today - let's speak to Mark Hannaby in the Oriel

about the undercard. I don't know if the Am's would

accept it as the undercard. We will have questions this afternoon to

ministers, in this case, to the health minister, Lesley Griffiths.

Then there were questions to the Counsel General. The new chief

legal officer for the Assembly. It will be interesting to be

introduced to him for our audience. After that, a couple of debates

nominated by the Conservatives. One on their "big society" idea.

Calling really on the Welsh government to recognise that there

is the society and the wider public as two separate things and both

have an important role to play. Following that, there will be

another Conservative debate, looking to secure the future of

family farms and to make sure communities have input into their

own economic future. After that, Plaid Cymru have a debate. They

would like to see the Welsh government lobby more effectively,

persuading the UK government to devolve power over a large scale

energy projects, such as the big wind farms in mid-Wales. Devolve

power over those subjects to the National Assembly. Beyond all that,

we have the big issue on whether Aled Roberts will be reinstated as

an Assembly Member for North Wales. As your guests have indicated, it

is supposed to be a semi judicial process. The report yesterday does

point in the direction of exonerating Aled Roberts from blame.

He consolidated the Welsh language advice from the electoral

commission and it was flawed. That seems to be accepted by Gerard

Elias. Will he be re- admitted? It is not as straightforward as that.

This is politics. It is not always about justice. It will be

interesting to see this afternoon whether the advice from the report

proves the quintessential thing which determines the issue or

whether political considerations and self interest comes into play.

We will find out later. Thank you for the time being. And you can

find out even more on what's happening in the National Assembly

on BBC Wales's Democracy Live Let's go to Westminster now where

our parliamentary correspondent David Cornock is laden with

information for us. Morning, David. Hello. It is difficult to ignore

the News of the world hacking story. MPs have a chance to debate the

latest developments today. They have.

Before that, Prime Minister's questions. I would be surprised if

the whole issue did not come up in that half hour. Labour keen to put

pressure on David Cameron in this because, of course, his former

director of communications, Andy Coulson, was editor of the News of

the world at the time some illegal activity went on. Then we will hear

from David Cameron on his recent visit to Afghanistan. Then we do

get that three-hour debate. An unusual debate forced by a

backbencher. The Speaker has agreed to that request. It is not often

that the parliamentary agenda changes that swiftly. MPs will not

be deciding anything today, they will only have the power to vote on

whether they consider the need for a public inquiry into the scandal

of phone hacking. The government so far resisting but hinting that

these -- that there could be an inquiry. That could take three

hours and that is the main business today.

That will be the main business in the chamber.

Carwyn Jones is in Westminster today. He will see George Osborne.

I hear the Chancellor will be in listening mode. What does that

mean? It would be interesting if he

wasn't in listening mode! It wouldn't be a very good meeting.

Yes, if he was doing puzzles in the corner!

The Treasury is keen to suggest that George Osborne wants to listen

to Carwyn Jones's arguments for a change in the way Wales is funded,

chiefly through the Barnett formula. We are familiar with that on this

programme. Before the election, George Osborne

did except there was a case for changing the Barnett formula and it

was unfair to Wales and to Fairford took -- to fare for Scotland.

Carwyn Jones will speak to George Osborne about that. This is really

the prelude to what we can expect, possibly as soon as next week, when

David Cameron visits the Assembly, and that is the setting up of a

commission to look at the way Wales is funded from the UK government

and the Treasury here. The UK government keen to introduce more

elements of accountability, it is not just about the money in terms

of where it comes from. We will have a chat with our guests

on the sofa surely. I see that Labour MPs have voted to scrap the

system of elections to the Shadow Cabinet, good news for Peter Hain?

Peter Hain did not get election last year when they held what were,

and are now, the last shadow cabinet elections. Good news for Ed

Miliband, in the sense that that he gets more authority over his top

team. When the Shadow Cabinet is elected, it is hard for him to sack

somebody who has steps out of line. He will have complete authority

over the Shadow Cabinet. Of course, he still has the delicate political

balancing act of making sure that enough people who are doubtful

about his leadership are inside, rather than the alternative.

Thank you for the time being. We will catch you before we hear from

the Prime Minister later on. We heard from David about Carwyn

Jones's meeting with the Chancellor today.

I am joined by the labour am for Cardiff West to discuss this whole

issue of funding. What is wrong with the way Wales is funded?

We are funded through the Barnett formula. An ancient device which

Barnett himself as said needs reforming. Gerry Holtham, a

distinguished economist and scientist, is looking at the way

the Barnett formula operates. He and his team went about it in an

interesting way. They looked to see what Wales would get if we were

treated in the same way as English regions were being treated by the

UK government and his conclusion was that Wales is short changed by

about �300 million or so every year at the moment. That position is

likely to get worse rather than better, unless something is done to

prevent that erosion. So there is a push to change that.

There is a fair amount of consensus in the Assembly. It is not the only

thing the First Minister wants. He also wants borrowing powers for

Wales? The Assembly lacks those powers at the moment?

It does. We are and like Northern Ireland and Scotland in that way

and we are end like local government. Any council in Wales

can borrow money. The First Minister will make the point that

unless the Assembly has borrowing powers as well, we will be unfairly

treated in comparison with other devolved administrations and this

will mean that very important things in Wales, infrastructure in

health and transport and so on, won't be able to happened.

That was the argument that it was particularly necessary at a time of

public sector cutbacks? Wales has been particularly badly

affected by cuts and especially so in the capital investment. We have

a reduction in capital funding. That means that we are very much in

need of an extra boost in capital. Other organisations are able to

have it, it is not right that Wales is being denied that capacity.

There is a full list of tax is that the minister wants to devolve. He

once stamp duty, land tax, the air passenger duty, altogether it would

raise 200 million per year. Would he doesn't want his income tax.

What I am wondering is how we would be able to repeat our borrowings

without an income provided by income tax?

You answered the question in the list you read out. If Wales did

have an incomes dream of around �200 million, from those taxes

which are easily identified and paid only in Wales, income tax is

extremely hard to administer. Who do you capture by it? People who

live in Wales but work in England? How do you sort it out? Extremely

difficult. The list you read out are easier to identify and collect

and if you had those as an income stream, you would be able to use

that to service any borrowing for capital purposes. Equally, you

could decide, as many places do, to use the revenue you all have -- to

reduce the revenue you have already got.

Thank you. Back to the studio. Before we hear from Mr Osborne, we

will hear from our guests on the sofa. Alun Ffred Jones there was a

cross party motion yesterday, giving Carwyn Jones the support of

the Assembly to sort out the funding formula for the Assembly.

Hardly a Neville Chamberlain moment. What does it mean in practice?

I don't know but he is going first six weeks after Alex Salmond has

been there and got what he wanted and is laughing all the way back to

the Bank of Scotland. To be fair, he goes there with the support of

the Assembly, yes. The Labour Party have been all over the shop with

this issue and everybody now, Gerry Holtham, as the man who has

delivered the evidence. Gerry Holtham would not have started his

work if it wasn't for pies can be insisting that there was a

commission set up to look at Wales -- had come rain.

We are where we are now. We are where we are because of

Plaid Cymru. We are now here and Carwyn Jones is there to plead his

case with George Osborne that if this process had started earlier,

we would be in a stronger position, as is Scotland. We need to look at

it not only in terms of fixing the Barnett formula, which the Labour

Party and the Tories have defended, but also to look at borrowing

powers. They will become increasingly important over the

next four years as we lose money, especially for infrastructure and

capital project. Peter, Mark Drakeford said that

Wales had been hit harder than other places. The coalition

government disagrees, saying that Wales has come off quite lightly --

quite lightly. Even so, Alun Ffred Jones says that Carwyn Jones has to

plead with the Chancellor. Not a good starting point?

In revenue terms, Wales is better off than most English departments

and the plan set up by George Osborne. That is in terms of the

previous Labour Chancellor, if they had stayed in government. In

capital terms, Labour would have kept a harder and faster.

We know all this. What will Carwyn Jones get from the Chancellor?

I am hoping he will get assurances on the Barnett formula, saying we

can't fall below a certain level of funding. There is consensus on that

issue. It won't cost the Treasury any money for the first two years.

We will have a chat before Prime Minister's questions but now it is

time to speak to our audience. Have you got a view on any of the

stories we're covering today? If you'd like to send us your comments

about that issue or any of the other issues raised in the

programme send us a Tweet to MPs are holding an emergency debate

into the News of the world phone hacking scandal. It has emerged

that the relatives of those killed in the 7/7 attacks may have had

their messages listened to. Our correspondent has been speaking to

Alun Michael. We are here in Westminster. MPs

preparing for the debate on phone hacking. We are joined by the

Labour MP, and in Michael. The police are already investigating

these phone hacking allegations. There are two big questions. One is

the way the journalists were clearly involved in something that

was systematic. We have all felt this was there but it is now that

the dam has burst and the facts are coming out hand over fist. On the

other hand, there is the way the police undertook investigations. On

the Home Affairs Select Committee, we were not content we were getting

to the bottom of this matter, so we kept the inquiry open. We have had

police representatives back a couple of times and personally I

think there is a need for an investigation to be called in by

the Independent Police Complaints Commission, to do a proper police

investigation into the way the Metropolitan Police handled the

issue, especially given that it is now clear there were fact they had

in 2006 which are only now coming out into the public domain and

being investigated. The fresh investigation was started under

pressure from Parliament. The call from Labour is for a

public inquiry into this. It sounds like you believe the problem is

wider than it News International? The call is for a judicial inquiry.

It has to be open and in public. Personally, I would think that an

inquiry that is specifically designed for this, in the way the

dealt with the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, for instance, is the way

to go. It needs to get into the facts fast and avoid bureaucracy

involved in a standard public inquiry. As I say, I think it is a

separate question from what happens within British journalism, is the

law completely disregarded on a systemic basis? Does this go wider

than the News of the world? On the other hand, there is the

investigation of activities by the police, was information used and

did they undertake a vigorous investigation, or where -- or was

there too much closeness between police and journalists, when we

hear about allegations of payments being made. All of that needs to be

inquired into and I think there are Do we need to think about the role

of the PCC? I think there'll is untenable. It is an effective

organisation. The know-nothing very much will happen. There is still

the tension which we have not resolved in the UK of how you have

a free press, how you drive a journalistic standards which the

best journalist want to do and how you avoid everything being tried to

the lowest-common-denominator which is what has happened as a result of

the news of the World. The damage extends beyond those directly

involved. As a former journalist, we were concerned to improve

standards and drive quality up and not have a push down by economic

considerations by newspaper owners. I think that this will give more

power to good journalists been demanding high standards within the

profession and I hope that any inquiry will go strengths to their

power to do so. Has the time, now have a statutory regulation of the

media industry? Statutory regulation is probably necessary as

an underpinning for something that is independent. I think with the

press and the media, it is important that the inquiries are

independent. We have managed to achieve that very well with the

police now have. They have none of the problem that previous bodies

dead. It is seen as independent and tough and willing to take long-term

inquiries were necessary. We need a proper independent investigative

body for the media which has that the authority but still is

independent of Government. Those are the sorts of considerations I

think that we need to give some real attention to now.

That was Alan Michaels talking to our reporter. Later today, David

Cameron will announce to MPs that he has called for a further modest

for both goals from Afghanistan. The Prime Minister spent the

earlier part of the Reagan Afghanistan when he urged the

Taliban to lay down their arms enjoy the political process. He is

sticking to the timetable of ending the UK's involvement in major

combat operations and 2014. Our correspondent John Stephenson has

been talking to the former Pontypridd MP Kim Howells about the

Afghan conflict. There is not a week goes by that

David Cameron praise is troops in Afghanistan. As a former foreign

office Minister where would you put that in terms of the situation in

that country? We are in a very poor position. Despite everything,

despite a lot of people dying, despite huge amounts of money being

spent and that, despite the fact that the Americans especially have

sacrificed an enormous amount, I do not think that Afghanistan is much

further forward than it was say one year after the Taliban had been

kicked out and Al-Qaeda with them. I do not think much progress has

been made. A lot of money has been spent and I hope that I am wrong,

but I feel very pessimistic about Afghanistan. You see a lot of money

has been spent. That is on the military side. And the civilian

side. D think like the Vietnam war, there was willing the hearts and

minds side. There was a lot of work done. Every time I went to

Afghanistan, I went to visit projects there. What it was very

difficult to sustain that effort of civilian reconstruction. The

Taliban very clever fighters, or a local warlord who was hostile to

NATO, they knew how to disrupt that work. They knew how to send out

warnings to people that they should have nothing to do with this. The

new themselves that if the West was successful, in helping to rebuild

those communities, to build new canals and new roads and new Wells,

that they the Taliban would lose the hearts and minds of the wrong

people. And so they did everything that they could to sabotage a war.

The implication there that it is a game of just hold your nerve, there

will come a time when the airlines has gone. It will be back in her

mot -- normal again. Is that we you're saying? In 2008, I warned

that this was not going to come right. That we had been there now

for no longer than the Second World War had lasted and we were not

making any progress. The most important thing that we were laying

down the lines of very brave young, British soldiers for a regime that

was corrupt. And that corruption, that endemic corruption, that

tribal society that is never going to change, I am afraid was

something that scared me to death. It seemed to me that we were never

going to change Afghanistan. And if we could not change it, what was

the point of being there? The point of being there in the first place

was to defeat Al-Qaeda and drive them out of Afghanistan and drive

out the Taliban and sustain them. We did that. We then tried to

changing it into Surrey are something. The implication that

that history should have told us not have got involved in the first

place. I do not think it was of not getting involved in the first place.

The British Army had this long involvement with Afghanistan, over

150 years. They used to have a saying which was picture and bald.

In other words, if you are going to chase Sunday in Afghanistan, you

get in there and you take out of them and then you get out of there.

What you do not do is try and stay in there. That is the lesson we

never learn. Thank you very much. We have got time for a quick chat

with her guests before we go to Prime Minister questions. What you

think is going to dominate today? think news International and the

terrible goings-on at the News of the World. And heads will roll.

have to say the Barnett formula. And the phone-tapping scandal.

have got to vote today. How important is that? It is quite

important. It will show the strength in the house of Commons.

There were some strong feelings among the public about the way they

have behaved in tapping the family of victims of crime. Something has

to be done once this police set investigation is out of the way to

tackle this issue. -- police investigation. I've been told that

the family of Millie dialler were shocked. This particular instance

and examples is beyond the pale. It does show the lack of empathy that

the people in some of these newspapers had for ordinary people.

It was just the story and the profits. They were above the law

and it reflects badly. It raises questions about news International

and their influence and domination and their influence on politicians

of all parties because they need them to support them. There is no

direct correlation there between these goings-on. It puts into focus.

Although they were depresses the worst of it, there is evidence that

other newspapers have been involved as well. But not quite as bad as

this. This is absolutely shocking and the public are very much

shocked by that and we need some action. It seems that some

companies have responded as well saying they would withdraw

advertising. That is quite a big move. Yes, it is. But they will get

over it. Something has got to change and what will happen is that

some day will be taken out and shot. They will be given a lot of money.

I may well hand over now. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am sure the

whole house would like to join me to pay tribute to the bravery and

dedication of this soldier who has with his family and friends at this

sad time. We pay tribute to him and all like him who serve our country

so magnificently in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Mr Speaker, I had

meetings with ministerial colleagues and in addition to my

duties I will have further meetings today. Could I agree with the Prime

Minister as the father who has a son who is serving in Afghanistan,

it is a dread of thing when you get that knock-on the door that he has

been lost in action. Our sympathies with the soldier's family and

friends. Yesterday we gave �10 billion to the bail-out of the

bank's in Greece. We gave �7 billion to the bail-out in Ireland.

We gave 100 billion, this is the British taxpayer, for the quality

of the banks in this country for insurance purposes and other

purposes. Why does the Prime Minister not get on his bike and go

down to his friends in the city and sat if you speculators -- sacking a

few speculators? First of all, it is this Government that is as

pretty Bank levy on the banks so they are paying more end every year

than they have paid in the bank on his tax under the last Government.

In terms agrees, we kept -- I kept us out of the European bail-out. In

Ireland, that economy is so close an integrated with ours, it is

right we give them support. That I think is the right approach. But

this Government is being tough in making sure that banks pay their

fair share. Severe droughts, conflict and food prices have

created desperate hunger and threatening the lives of millions.

With aid agencies shorter funds, what is the Government doing to

help? He is being extremely effective in helping this appalling

crisis were 10 million people are in threat of starvation. It

demonstrates that we are right to maintain and increase our spending

in this difficult area. Difficult as the arguments sometimes are, in

spite of those we have -- the difficulties we have here, it is

nothing compared to those people there. Mr Speaker, can I journey

Prime Minister in paying tribute to Highlander Scott McLaren. He was a

young man who was serving our country and died in the most

horrific circumstances. I am sure the ethos of the whole house are

with his club family and friends. The whole country has been appalled

by the disclosures of phone hacking. The 77 -- the many victims, that

anyone could hack into her phone and listen to her family's frantic

messages and delete them, giving false talk to those parents, is

immoral and a disgrace. Given the gravity of what has occurred, will

be Prime Minister's support the calls for a full independent public

inquiry to take place as soon as practical into the culture and

practices of British newspapers? Let me be clear. Yes, we do need to

have an inquiry, possibly inquiries, into what has happened. We are no

longer talking about politicians and celebrities. We are talking

about murder victims, potential terrorist victims, having their

phones tapped into. It is disgusting at what has taken place

and I think everyone in this country will be revolted by what

they have heard and seen on their television screens. Let me make a

couple of bites, first of all, there is a major police

investigation underway. It is one of the biggest police

investigations currently underway in our country and crucial. I hope

you will listen. It does not involve police and former --

officers involved in the region -- original investigation. I do think

it is important that we have inquiries that are public,

inquiries that her independent and that have public confidence. It

seems to be that there are two vital issues to look into. The

first is the original police inquiry and why that did not get to

autumn of what has happened. And the second is about the behaviour

of individual people and media organisations and as the Right

Honourable SEN -- gentle said, taking a wider look into media

practices and ethics in this country. As he says, we cannot

start all those inquiries immediately because you must not

jeopardise the police investigation. It may be possible to start some of

that work earlier. I am very happy to discuss this with them, with

other party leaders, with the Attorney-General and the house.

am encouraged that he does recognise the need for a full

public inquiry into what happened. He is right to say that this can

only be fully completed after the police investigation has taken its

course. However, as he said in his answer, that may take some years.

It is possible, and I think he implied, for the process to start

now. Can I make some suggestions. He should appointee senior figure,

potentially a judge, to lead this inquiry. Make clear it will have

the power to call witnesses under oath and establish clear terms of

reference covering a number of key issues. The culture and practices

of the industry, the nature of regulation which is absolutely

crucial, and also the relationship between the police and the media. I

wonder whether he can just respond and those points. I want to respond

cost of -- positively. Of the two issues I mission. -- I mentioned. I

do not think it is possible to start a investigation until the

police investigation is finished. There is a issue of jeopardising

what is already been started. Weakest major stardom other

elements. I do not want us to rush this decision. I want us to get

this right. Having discussed this with other party leaders, the

Attorney-General and others. He is implying this could start now. It

is important it does so. Just because we cannot do everything,

does not mean we cannot do anything. It is very important we do so. He

did one year ago today,. The gives an inquiry. Let me go one to ask

him about what happens in the meantime pending this public

inquiry? We have consistently said that the BSkyB bid should be... He

must realise the public will react with disbelief if next week, the

decision is taken to go ahead with this deal at the time when news

International is subject to a major criminal investigation. And we do

not yet know who charges will be laid against. Does he agree that

the BSkyB bid should now be referred to the Competition

Commission to provide a breathing space that is required? Let me as a

his point about give Sun. This is a fair point. We establish the

inquiry but it has not been able to make much progress until a criminal

proceeding have been brought to an end. There is a good reason for

this. He did not want to jeopardise a police operation which would do

so if you start questioning witnesses through public inquiry

process at the same time as they are being questioned through a

police process. I want us to get on with this issue and the faster that

we can set up other elements of an inquiry, the happier I will be. On

the issue of BSkyB, what we have done here is follow the correct

legal processes. That is what the Government has to do. The Secretary

of State is in a semi judicial role. He has to follow that. I know the

leader of the Labour Party said yesterday that the issue of

competition and plurality is a separate issue from the very

important issue of we are discussing today. What I would say

is that these processes must be followed properly. It is Ofcom who

have the duty to make sure they have a fit and proper person in

place. Mr Speaker, that answer was out of touch of millions of people.

The public will not accept the idea that with the scandal engulfing the

News of the World, and news International, that the Government

should in the coming days be making a decision outside of the normal

processes and ordered to take control of one of the media

organisations and the country. -- in order for him to take control. I

urge him to think again and sent this decision to the proper

authorities which is the Competition Commission. This would

provide breathing space for legitimacy and for the proper

decisions to be made. I would say that the decision-making has been

through the proper processes. It is right that the Government acts

legally in every way and that is what it has done. One is an issue

about morality and ethics and a police investigation that needs to

be carried out the proper way. But they have total independence to do

that. The other is the issue about plurality and commit -- competition.

Those are the words used yesterday. And 24 hours he has done a U-turn

in order to look good in the Commons. This is not the time for

technicalities are low blows. We have said consistently throughout

this process that this bid should be referred to the Competition

Commission. This is the right way forward. And the Prime Minister

should be speaking for the country on this issue of because this is

what people want him to do. I hope you will go off and think again

because it is in the interest of the media industry and the British

public that this is properly referred to the Competition

Commission and the way that all other beds with dealt with. What we

also know, as well as needing a public inquiry is that these were

not the actions of a rogue individual or re wrote reporter but

part of a wider systematic pattern of abuses. The public see a major

news organisation in this country where no one appears prepared to

take a spell of -- responsibility for what happened. Nobody is this

but -- and denying that the phone was packed. And the did not deny

that it was on the current watch of an editor. Will he join me in

saying she should take responsibility and consider her

position? Let me deal with this issue of technicalities. When you

are dealing with the law, you have to look at the technicalities

because there is something called due process like you have to follow.

That is necessary for any Government and I am sure he

understands that. In terms of news International, everyone there has

got to ask themselves some searching questions and everyone

there is subject to what currently has one of the largest police

investigations underway in this country. What I think is we should

let the police do their work. If they find people guilty of

wrongdoing, they should have no Mr Speaker, I do not know from that

answer whether he says that the chief Executive at News

International should stand down or not. I am clear she should take

responsibility and stand down. These events show a systematic set

of abuses which demonstrate the use of power without responsibility in

our country is in the interests of our democracy that these issues are

sorted out. With the biggest press scandal in modern times getting

worse by the day, I am afraid he has not shown the leadership

necessary today. He has not shown the leadership necessary on News

International. Is it not the case that if the public is to have

confidence in him, he has got to accept that he made a catastrophic

error of judgement by bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his

Downing Street machine. Former News of the World editor, of

course. Order. I apologise for interrupting

the prime minister. The Prime Minister should not have to shout

to be heard and neither should be leader of the opposition. It is

disorderly. I take full responsibility for

everyone I employee and everyone I appoint and I take full

responsibility for everything my government does. What this

Government is doing is making sure that the public, and I feel so

appalled by what is happening, murder victims and terrorist

victims having their phones tapped is disgraceful. That is why it is

important there is a full police investigation with all of the

powers they need. That is why it is important we have those inquiries

to get to the bottom of what went wrong. That is why we also need to

enquire how we improve the ethics and morals of the press in this

country and make sure they improve the future. That is what this

government is doing. Year 9 pupils at Lamberhurst school

in my constituency have joined hundreds of other people to join a

school's campaign. Will the Prime Minister at his support to this

cause and reminders that good education transforms the children's

lives and their chant -- and their life chances?

I am delighted to welcome the campaign that she mentioned and her

personal support for it. Across all world, there are 39 million girls

out of school. Even if they are in school, the gender gap is appalling.

What we are doing in the UK eat with our aid Budget is securing

schooling for 11 million children by a 2015. That is more than the

children in the UK at 2.5 % of the cost. We must reduce inequality.

Can the Prime Minister explain whether he thinks that the cost of

his NHS reforms centralised even further with the revolution that a

super quango in the NHS will be created, might be partly

responsible for the funding squeeze in Harrow, putting at risk services

in my constituency. What we have actually seen since

this government has taken office is more than 2000 more doctors but

4,000 fewer managers. We are cutting bureaucracy by one-third. I

know they don't like to hear it but if we followed their plans and cut

NHS but spending, you would see the number of doctors and nurses going

Dharm. This morning, we see the numbers for the number of

diagnostic tests in the UK covering up, that is because of investment

by this government. The Prime Minister will be aware of

news this morning that something has been downgraded to junk status.

You cannot put things down to bad discussions and the only plan B is

bankruptcy. You are correct, Plan B stands for

bankruptcy. That is what happens if governments don't get a grip of

debt or deficit. That is what we are doing. The party opposite held

learnt nothing. Does the Prime Minister agree with

me that the maximum sentence for the offensive dangerous -- for the

offence of dangerous driving does not properly reflect the harm it

does to victims, sometimes victims are left paralysed and brain-

damaged. Care will the Prime Minister's support me in increasing

the maximum sentence to seven years. I knew of the Honourable Gentleman

speaks with personal knowledge of this, not just because of a

constituency case he wrote to me about but also because of his work

as a barrister. I do believe there is a problem when you have a highly

sentence for causing death by dangerous driving but only this

two-year sentence in the case that he brought to me comedy --,

somebody was damaged for life. We are looking at this issue and hope

to make progress. Would the Prime Minister agree with

me that the only did bail-out from the opposition of 10 billion is not

that. We won't be a global player if we are not in the IMF. Does the

opposition need reminding that in the 1970s, the IMF bailed out their

government? The second part was disorderly.

I absolutely agree with what my Honourable Friend said. It was

remarkable yesterday that the Labour Party has put itself in the

position of a posing our position in the IMF. Britain is a serious

global economy and we should take responsibility for global issues

through the IMF. Does the Prime Minister agreed the

details of all the weapons and explosives be commissioned in the

Northern Ireland district should be made public as promised. Will he

agree to have negotiations with the Irish government to move forward to

the Americans to see it happens? The point is that the independent

commission on decommissioning did not provide us with an inventory.

They were an independent body and this was a decision for them to

take. They stated, we would not wish inadvertently to discourage

future decommissioning events by groups that are active today, or to

deter groups for handing over any arms that subsequently come to

light. This is difficult and we are having to do difficult things in

order to bring conflict to an end. That is what the Independent

commissioning report was doing. The issue about delaying an inquiry,

the fact that the public have little confidence in the

Metropolitan Police in investigations concerning News

International are concerning. On 22nd April, I asked whether we

would have a full judicial inquiry that looks at the link between News

International and the Metropolitan Police?

Clearly, this is an important issue. My Honourable Friend the Home

Secretary has discussed it with the Commissioner of the Metropolitan

Police this morning and they want to continue with the investigation

that is under way. Even before you get to the point about independent

and public inquiries, what the public needed to go is that the

police are going to go about their job properly. They do need to know

that this is an investigation completely separate from the

previous investigation. As it stands today, it is one of the

largest police investigations going on anywhere in the country.

Victims of knife crime in London have increased by more than 8% over

the last three months. On the streets of London, we have children

carrying knives and other children afraid of the journey to and from

school. Last Friday, a 16-year-old constituent of mine was stabbed to

death. Two children have been arrested. What will the prime

minister do to ensure the mayor of London gets to grips with this

problem? The case she raises is an

absolutely tragic one and there are too many victims of knife crime,

particularly among young people, particularly in London. We are

creating a new offence with a mandatory prison sentence, to send

a clear message to those who carry knives. The offence will apply to

those carrying knives who threaten those in a public place. It will

send a clear message that if you threaten anyone, you go to jail.

Will my honourable friend agree with me that those who pay back

early their student loans are doing the right thing and should be

encouraged? If so, how is that consistent with the government's

policy, which is apparently want to discourage paying back and to

penalise them for early repayment of student loans?

I would urge my Honourable Friend to look carefully at the detail of

what we are proposing. We want a progressive system where people who

earn more pay back more and that is why we have a system where nobody

pays anything until they are earning 21,000 and you don't pay

back in for it -- in full interview and 35,000 ball. People who pay

back around 3,000 a year should not be discouraged because that is the

right thing to do. In opposition, the Prime Minister

was clear that certain things should be banned. What has changed?

What we have done is we have banned. It is endlessly frustrating that we

are frustrated by it so many legal requirements. We have to be a

government under the law. Order. The House will want to hear

that Mr Robert. Given that the Olympics and the

diamond jubilee next year, is the prime minister aware that

immigration officers are concerned that travel in its current forms

allows terrorists into the country without their passports being

checked. When you close this loophole immediately?

By Honourable Friend makes an important point. Passport free

travel between the UK, the Crown dependencies and the Republic of

Ireland, have been in place for many years. It offers many benefits.

These rates can be open to abuse and we are determined to restore

this. The border agency is looking into this. We do not want to

disadvantage those who can take advantage it up till now.

The communities Secretary and the D W P Secretary, should employ

British workers. Will the Prime Minister stop the DW peak of

shoring existing jobs in North Tyneside?

I will look closely at the case that she makes.

Order. I want to hear the prime minister's view.

I want to make sure that welfare reforms are encouraging those

people who sit on welfare who could work to go out to work. Economic

growth but 5 million working-age people living on benefits, that is

not good enough. Would the Prime Minister agree with

me that rural areas provide an irreplaceable service. Every effort

should be made to keep post offices. The centre in my constituency may

close. What we want to see is maternity

networks so that mums can make a The company made public for the

first time that they have been able to establish a new academy for the

design and manufacture of cars for the next generation of high-speed

trains for this country and across the world. More jobs and jobs with

higher skills. He won't have had time to familiar cries himself --

familiarise himself. Will he give substance to the comment he made in

my constituency to British manufacturers?

I will look very carefully at what the Right Honourable Lady has said.

I want to see more British jobs in manufacturing. In the case of the

bombarding a train contract, the procurement process was designed

and initiated by the government of which she was a part. We are bound

by the criteria that they set out and therefore we need to continue

with the decision made according to that criteria. Separately car we

are setting out to ask the question, what more can we do within the

current rules to make sure we Blues manufacturing in this country, and

not have situations like this in future?

12 days ago, a constituent of mine was a victim of a vicious knife

attack. This last weekend, another 16-year-old young man was also the

victim of a knife attack. Will my right honourable friend join with

me in condemning this upsurge in gang Related violence and confirm

those that carry knives will face a custodial sentence if apprehended?

As I have just said to the Honourable Lady opposite, it is

important we set out a clear message about this. There is a new

offence with a mandatory sentence. That sends out a signal. We should

be frank with other selves in the country that purely looking at this

from a criminal justice situation is not the answer. We must ask

ourselves why so many young children join gangs, why aren't our

communities doing more to prevent the carrying of knives and that is

right across government. It is simply not the case, as the

Prime Minister claimed earlier, that the government has for road

the normal process of the takeover of BSkyB. Why does he think those

assurances are any more credible than the assurances he was given on

phone hacking? We have followed the right legal

processes. If you don't follow the correct legal processes, you will

be judicially approved and all of the decisions will be struck down

in the courts. You look pretty for a day but useless for a week.

Order. If the house can overcome its put it -- its collective nerve,

it will give a hearing to Mr Ian Swales.

Last Friday, I visited a school in my constituency, which is the 17th

most deprived primary-school in the country. Will the Prime Minister

join me in congratulating the school and community and a

converted area of demolished houses for a school playing field. Will

the Government continue with its crew build premium policy -- people

premium policy? I congratulate the Honourable

Gentleman for the support he is sharing his primary schools. I

believe that the people premium will pump billions extra into

education, particularly for the most deprived children, is going to

make a huge difference to our schools. 13 years they had opposite

to introduce a premium and we got nothing.

This policy applies in England alone. The speaker brings an end to

Question Time there. David Cameron will update MPs on Afghanistan from

where he has just returned. A question that Ed Miliband asked,

into the inquiry of phone hacking, David Cameron said there would be

won but not until after the police inquiry has been at completed. As

you might expect, that was the big issue. Let us see what they think

of that in the studio. Obviously, we will reflect on that

now. Peter Black, while we were watching that then, you were on the

side of the Prime Minister, agreeing that an inquiry could not

take place yet, even though Ed Miliband suggested it could.

The Prime Minister used a nice phrase, look pretty for a day but

useless for a week. The issue has to be that if the police are to be

witnesses, those witnesses could give conflicting evidence in front

of a public inquiry. That has to be out of the way before a public

inquiry. Would you agree?

I suppose so. Everybody is taking cover now. This is a big story

which will create revulsion among normal people and politicians will

be keen to say they are on the side of local people but politicians in

major parties will be in partnership with Wales -- with News

International for a long time. It will be interesting to see whether

anything changes. Before we heard from the

politicians, Ed Miliband called on Rebekah Brooks to resign or be

removed from her post. Even if it does happen, you think that she

will get cover? She stood up for News International

and they will reward her, whatever happens. Anyway, these things

should be the result of police or public inquiries, rather than

saying who is responsible. She was at the centre of this, as were

other people. People at a senior level will have to carry the can.

These are allegations and the moment. Andy Coulson was mentioned.

You were pre-empting that. He came up halfway through?

Yes. I suppose Ed Miliband was -- Ed Miliband thought it was right

that he got the main issues out of the way before he brought it to

Party politics. It always comes down to that.

He has a point. It was clear that Andy Coulson had left the newspaper

because of the phone hacking allegations, and yet the prime

minister picked him up and employed him. Clearly, the question has to

be why that happened, when he knew that might be the case.

He gave a robust defence of his employment of Andy Coulson and said

that he takes responsibility for whoever he employs. A brave state

and. A brave and foolish statement.

It was a lack of judgement anyway. Whatever the in -- whatever the

involvement was. We need to get to the bottom of this. These are murky

waters that are swilling around at the moment. Everybody will be

watching their backs. This is a big story for News International and

they haven't covered themselves in glory so far. No doubt they will

pick up their game but Rupert Murdoch will be keeping a close eye

This story has been around for a long time. David Cameron has been

using words like disgusting. He was covering his own back. As I say,

senior politicians have been a lining cells was Murdoch and his

machine for a long time. They also have to be held responsible for

allowing the situation any sense, his power to develop, and feeling

that they could do what they like. They were working in partnership

with powerful people. I do not know how it came to this pass. This

seems to be beyond imagination that anybody would stoop to this. No

doubt, there will be inquiries and recommendations and committees.

knock-on effect could be the merger of BSkyB, or the takeover of BSkyB.

You have worked with Jeremy Hunt. haven't worked with him. I have met

him. The Prime Minister was very careful to say, yes these things

are terrible. Nothing to do with BSkyB. What did she think of that,

Peter? This issue has there been taken into account. You have to ask

the question given what has happened around news International,

whether they are fit and proper persons to have this monopoly in

Britain. I thought the Prime Minister left his options and we

will see some developments. For the time being, thank you very much.

We will hit -- we will hear from campaigners. The UK's independent

inquiry into stalking and harassment is to begin taking

evidence tomorrow. The first session will cover cyber stalking

and look at the work of the National Stalking Helpline. Our

reporter, Bethan James, has been talking to the senior Welsh

champion who is leading the cross- party investigation. -- Welsh MP.

A growing concern in this age of social media is cyber stalking. The

Plaid Cymru MP is heading an inquiry to see how a bigger problem

it is. Am I right in saying that cyber stalking is not covered by UK

law? In the area tis but it is so complex that most police officers

do not understand it. Many prosecutors do not understand it

and the net result is that the 1997 Protection from harassment Act is

actually not fit for this purpose. In support of that, I would say

there is that 53,000 cases per annum are reported. Of those, about

12% make it to court. And of those, about 2% end up in custodial

sentence. We need to look at where we are in terms of people using

cyberspace the in and day out, the various media. I do believe that we

need to tighten things up and bring in some amendments. I did raise

this with the Prime Minister during questions some weeks ago when he

did acknowledge there is a problem. This inquiry is to decide, we know

there is a problem, and the way forward. Once we are weaned in a

position that we know the way forward, we will have a meeting

with the Prime Minister and change the law. You are not as good to

talk about cyber stopping. What is the purpose of this inquiry in its

wider scope? The purpose is to protect people who are being

harassed by the new media. We can all think of other examples, that

have ended up in homicide. Several of them, three mothers give

evidence to us. Their daughters had been killed. If we had a better

framework in place, two if not three of those, their deaths could

have been avoided. So we need to deal with this and urgently. But we

need to do a very carefully. We have three evidence sessions ahead.

Members of all parties getting involved in this, so we need to

harness this momentum now and, with some reasonable suggestions. Is a -

- is at a problem to the police? Is a difficult to prove, tried to find

out who are committing these offences? Part of the problem is

the anonymity that side per -- the cyber media give people. You are

able to invade someone's of sea without letting them who know who

you are. We have to be looking at the service providers, whether we

need to harness their men as well. And we need to do lots of work on

this because it is long overdue. As I said, we are starting with the

academics on Wednesday. We will be speaking with some criminal

psychologist, people from the Suzy Lamplugh Trust and it we will speak

with people from the Scottish Parliament who have enacted the law

there and also to speak with CPS and the police. We want it done and

proper inquiry. We will then conclude accordingly. We have two

excellent barristers advising us. They will help us draft anything we

propose. I am hopeful that in about six and nine months' time, we will

have some answers to put before Government. Thank you very much.

The Welsh Government is being urged undertaking a risk assessment into

the proposals to close or downgrade coastguard stations in Wales. Mark

has more run this. To discuss the whole issue I am

joined by that to people here. George Watson, you have received a

petition on this. What are people asking for? They are asking us what

we can do. They are asking the Welsh Assembly Government to assess

the impact on tourism. I think that this is reasonable as a request. It

is the first -- I welcome the opportunity to look at this issue.

I lead the debate here at the Assembly some months ago and I

really think we need to look at these things seriously. You have

worked in the field. How detrimental do you think the

closure of centres would be? think it is very detrimental. The

Welsh coast has large numbers of tourists over the year. Many of

them get into difficulties, are not aware of where they are, do not

know what to do. Having local coastguards with local knowledge

and effective rescue. Milton Haven, is a big tourist destination. It is

growing. That is correct. Everybody is trying to attract more tourists

to the area. Their safety is critical. There is a general

feeling that these proposals to close to maquette of the three

stations, could affect their safety. Is there clutching at straws? The

Welsh Assembly Government has made it plain that it disapproves of

this course of action but it is his been powerless to do much about it.

Do you think tourism will be an effective way to find the breach in

that policy? I think anything that helps to allow people to take this

seriously as good. Anybody who wants to take their holiday using

their holiday in temperature or a long that coastal line, this is a

very serious issue. Closing local services and removing local

knowledge will put lives at risk. But it will also impact on that

tourist industry. If people do not feel safe in the first place, the

rest assess themselves and they simply will not turn up. Do you

agree with that? My receipt tourism diminish and yet there? Quite

possibly. There is a risk to tourists because of this loss of

local knowledge or potential loss of local knowledge. There is a

possibility that the numbers were reduced. But you are in no doubt

that people will be in more danger? No. There is a further stage about

to happen. There will be another proposal for a revised proposal

from the MCA which will take this forward. Back to you.

The Welsh Government is proposing what it describes as major changes

to Communities First it - that is the scheme designed to involve

local people in regenerating deprived areas. The local

Government Minister Carl Sargeant says the programme will keep its

community focus but he wants a stronger emphasis on tackling

poverty and contributing to the wider anti-poverty agenda.

We all know a was a ten-year programme. We have been given this

opportunity and time to think about how to develop a new programme for

the future. This is about enhancing what we have had. Regrow one that

really. If big changes are necessary, is that an an omission

that this was not working? Absolutely not. This is about

generating your virginity. This is not changed for change's sake --

this is about generating originality. We will work with

partnership agencies to make sure that we get the best for the

communities. Will the new programme make sure that we cannot give us

failures? I cannot give you Assurance's -- assurances about the

future. We give it -- we give good advice. We have to enable them to

develop programmes that are accountable for the public at large

through Government, through local partnership agencies and we want to

get the best value for our money in their communities.

Let's see what our guests think about that. There was a moderate

head-shaking from you. Enhancing new opportunities. What does he

mean? I listen to him yesterday and I could not work out what he meant.

Are you surprised that Communities First still exists by name? I have

seen their operating at a local level. There have been good schemes

that have worked well. It is difficult to see how it fits in to

all the other actions. Right at its inception there was a problem

because they put job-creation as one of the aims. The only jobs are

created where the jobs created by the scheme itself, as always.

Therefore, yes, I have nothing against it. It seems that they

cannot admit that it does not work very well so they are rejigging yet

saying, it has worked very well but we want to change it. Because it is

working well Lexmark would you have expected Communities First to still

be going after what was the damning indictment of a last year? I think

the proposals he is putting in place now, they will go the wrong

way. Ideally we have gone to local councils and said, you are

responsible for economic development in your area. Here is

the money, you sorted out. The problem with these reforms are

twofold. First of all he has centralise everything to himself.

The has this new structure in place where he sits at the top and he

decides what happens with the money. And secondly, the way they you

measure the outcomes and what the - - on the money you spend, he put a

number of indicators to measure that. But none of the monitor the

expenditure. The problem we have had is that we have not been able

to assess how effective this is an this will not change it. I suspect

she were hinting at it, if you do not know if it was working then, it

probably isn't? It is difficult to measure some of the things it is

trying to do. Confidence among people, it seems to me in some

examples it has worked reasonably well. They seem to be at the heart

of things. But in other places, it seems to remote. People and tried

to do something. Are there too many projects? Far too many. I have some

serious reservations. I would have some sympathy of that local of

authorities could lead economic regeneration, a should be fully

integrated into their means of working. I think the way he is

acting in this, it is thus empowering local conveys --

communities. Glamorgan did not do well in the Twenty20 last night but

the fuel poverty collision comrade say they're going to "Hit Fuel

Pverty for 6". -- Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru.

To discuss the whole issue I am joined by Consumer Focus Wales and

Mark Fisher would. What is fuel poverty and war how widespread is

it in Wales. We look at the percentage of people's income being

spent and tried to heat their homes. In Wales, 18% of all households are

spending �2 out of every 10 of their income on this. A lot of

those are very -- in very hard to double whammy of people who cannot

afford the cost of feel, living in homes that are hard to heat. And it

is something that is going to get hard. Fuel companies are putting

their prices up when incomes are being squeezed. There is not enough

money to go round. This winter that we are facing could be really

dangerous? There is always a concern. People could die from debt

- by the cold. It is a significant programme - a problem. Even the UK

Government has limited powers were direct influence on fuel prices.

Across party group will be encouraging the Welsh Government to

apply and do everything it can in these areas. But it is not just the

price of fuel. If it was, because we cannot directly directors, we

would not have this event. It is how we could improve the situations

are people in fuel poverty. This is hitting - right this is where

you're project comes and place. want to see you - what we want to

see clear action plans. We want to see programmes our integrated. You

may be implementing a new energy efficiency programme in an area but

at the same time, are you making sure the benefits are being

maximised. People in social care and health workers have a role in

identifying individuals. A number of practical things that we think

in Wales can do. That fits in well with that idea of different sectors

of the public sector working together. With this agenda of local

authorities working more closely together. There is an opportunity

any time of change in local Government to make these things are

reality. We believe we have to get all of the different agencies and

service to us to focus on the person and on the family because it

is not just all the people, it is children as well. They have told us

how it is like to live in a cold house. They are rushing to bring

their friends around to stay. It is about getting everybody to watch

out for the warning signs. Is there something we you come across a new

constituency postbag? Do you discuss this with families who are

Absolutely. People do come for support or information with

problems they have in consequence of the homes they live in. They can

be expensive to heat. Some children have respiratory illnesses in

consequence of the homes they living. Parents are often not in

work and are suffering illnesses. It has a knock-on effect. Also, we

also find that people live in social isolation. People may have

mental health problems or disability issues and they can be

living in fuel poverty but are not being picked up on the radar

because they are often living in remote situations or do not have

family or support around them. We have heard about targeting the

person and the harps hold -- and the Household, without a qualifying

measure. A tremendous challenge, obviously.

Thank you for joining me to discuss A round of applause there for

everyone. Alun Ffred Jones, while you are on the sofa, I must ask you

about the plot can be potential leadership race. Have you thought

of yourself out? I think I have. I want to make

Wales at a robust place. I hope that I won't be in debate.

You hope you won't? You think you should be?

I have ministerial experience and we need as many contestants as

possible. This afternoon, the Conservatives

have a debate on the "big society". Your party is involved in that in

Westminster. Should we have it implemented here? What does it mean

for us? Exactly. I have always thought the

big problem of the "big society" is it is so ill defined. The motion

the Conservatives have tabled is as ill-defined as the concept. In the

sense that you want to give more people more responsibility and

power to do things in their own communities.

That sounds like Communities First! It sounds like the Third Wave.

The "big society" is not about that. That is one interpretation. Another

one is getting the voluntary sector to do things the government should

do. I yes, and then take money away from the voluntary organisations.

Often they are not voluntary because they pay employees. It is

very peculiar. I think there is scope to do that in terms of social

enterprises and so on. I think there is something about local

people having control over that and a stake in it. Trying to

encapsulate it into this idea of the "big society", I have no idea.

Once you try to brand something people do ordinarily, many of these

people live in places they do not need these structures in affluent

or well of areas. They do not need the state until they become ill at

the end of their lives. Not everybody is a Tory. There are

Tories all over the country. There are. By and large... I

generalise, but anyway... We will leave it there. Thank you